Jocko Podcast - 221: The Unimaginable Path of Jonny Kim. SEAL Combat Medic, Doctor, Astronaut

Episode Date: March 18, 2020

0:00:00 - Opening.  The Letter 0:07:22 - Jonny Kim. Combat Medic. 3:44:39 - NASA. 4:09:17 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 4:19:56 - How to stay on THE PATH. 4:38:31 - Closing Gratitude  Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 221 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. June 15th, 2010. Members of the selection committee, it is with absolute conviction that I give my strongest possible personal recommendation to Jonathan Y. Kim's selection for medical school. There is no one more qualified to make this recommendation. than me as Jonathan was under my direct supervision as a U.S. Navy SEAL combat medic while I commanded SEAL Team 3 tasking to Bruser during the Battle of Ramadi Operation Iraqi Freedom from April until October 2006. During this time, the city of Ramadi was the epicenter of the insurgency and a place filled with fear, violence, casualties, and death. In that brutal An unforgiving environment, Jonathan's undaunted courage, tenacious devotion to duty,

and superb skills as a combat medic were tested and proven over and over again. On one particular occasion, he and a small element of other SEAL combat advisors were leading a patrol of Iraqi soldiers through an enemy-controlled sector of Ramadi. The patrol was ferociously ambushed, leaving an Iraqi soldier severely wounded. and lying helpless in the street. Jonathan and another seal, who had taken refuge from the enemy gunfire behind a concrete wall,

left their safe position and stormed forward into the hail of enemy bullets. They then dragged the wounded soldier under intense enemy fire back to a secure position where Jonathan immediately began performing combat trauma care on the Iraqi soldier. Another Iraqi soldier was then wounded by enemy fire. and Jonathan provided medical care to him as well, eventually organizing the casualty evacuation

for the wounded men. For his actions that day, Jonathan was awarded the Silver Star Medal in recognition of his bold courage under enemy fire. That level of heroism and bravery was not an isolated incident. On another occasion, Jonathan exposed himself to enemy sniper fire in order to attend to one of his SEAL platoon mates who had been severely wounded by an enemy sniper round that had struck the seal in the face. Exposing himself to the enemy sniper fire that had just wounded his fellow SEAL, and with blatant disregard for his own personal safety, Jonathan moved to the fallen seal, stabilized the patient, and organized the evacuation.

For this action, he was awarded the Bronze Star Medal with Combat Distinguishing Device. Jonathan's bold courage, calm decisiveness, and intrinsic desire to provide care to the wounded, even under the most intense urban combat imaginable, continued for our entire deployment. Even as combat fatigue set in on many of the men as they saw their teammates, friends, and brothers in arms wounded or killed time and time again, Jonathan never faltered. I know that the horrors of combat have shown Jonathan more stress and chaos than most will ever see. I also know that he handled that stress and chaos with a calmness of heart and a steadiness of mind that any man would admire. As further evidence of this, after his deployment to Ramadi with tasking a bruiser,

Jonathan was recognized for his stellar performance when he was selected as United States Special Operations Command Medic of the Year for 2006. Jonathan has now applied his strong work ethic and sharp intellect to college, where he is performing with equal distinction, having earned a 3.98 grade point average. His remarkable aptitude for math and science is reflected in his standing on the mortar board honors society, the dean's list, and first honors role. Additionally, his dedication to service is represented in the many hours he has spent as a volunteer. at both Sharp Memorial Hospital and Balboa Naval Hospital. This academic prowess, willingness to serve, selflessness and duty, and personal will to accomplish the mission, even in the most severe combat situations,

are qualities so unique that I cannot fathom a more exemplary candidate for medical school. I am completely confident he will excel both in school and in the field and will make not only Harvard proud, but also provide the finest and most compassionate medical care to every patient blessed enough to come under his charge. I would be more than happy to answer any questions about Jonathan Kim and his unlimited potential. Sincerely, John G. Willink, commander, Naval Special Warfare Group 1, training detachment. And that right there was a letter of war. recommendation I wrote for Jonathan Kim, otherwise known as Johnny Kim, for his acceptance into

Harvard Medical School. And this was after I wrote him a letter of recommendation to be commissioned as an officer in the Navy, and after I sat on his board for the commissioning program, but before I wrote him a recommendation for acceptance into NASA to become an astronaut, and Johnny was accepted into the officer program. He was accepted into college. He was accepted into Harvard, and he was accepted into NASA to become an astronaut. And it was easy to write those letters of recommendation because of the person that Johnny was and is. Simply an outstanding individual in every way. And it was an honor to work with him in Task Unit Bruiser.

And it's an honor to have Johnny Kim here with us tonight to talk about his life and his lessons learned. and he's a humble guy, so I already know he's going to be mad at me for opening up with that grandiose letter of recommendation from all those years ago. But I will say, Johnny, you brought it on yourself by achieving so much. So, Johnny, welcome, and thanks for coming on. Man, it's pretty bizarre to be sitting here with you right now after all these years. It is. Thank you for having me here.

It's an honor to be here. and thank you for the kind and generous and also undeserving words. I mean, listening to that story, it seems a world away, but at the same time, it seems like it just happened. Yeah, that's the way, I think that's the way life is. And I think that's the way military, for me, my military career is in chunks. And, you know, I spent a chunk of time at SEAL Team 1 as a new guy. Then I spent a chunk of time at SEAL Team 2 as a young ens.

spend a chunk of time in college, then a chunk of time here. And those chunks can be years long, but sometimes they just seem like they went by in 15 minutes. So, man, your story, which you're really just in the middle of right now, I guess, let's just go back to the beginning and go through, you know, growing up and what that was like, and we'll get through the teams, we'll get all the way up to sitting at this table, which, like you said earlier, is very strange for you and me to be. in this position and I don't think you one of us ever thought we would be sitting doing what we're doing right now. No, never. Let's do it. Right on man. So where were you born? Los Angeles, California.

And what was the scenario you grew up in? Yeah, so first generation Korean American, my parents immigrated to the states in the early 80s, a couple of years before I was born. I was born in 84. And And growing up for me was, there were some hard times growing up. I mean, I have always kept my growth, my childhood close to the chest, even some of my closest friends. I've never told how I grew up. And it wasn't out of shame or anything, but I think it was a little bit, I think it's always been privater for me.

and it's been a part of my identity and for a lot of the same reasons why I wanted to be a seal that creed we swore to to never really to do the things we do and not seek recognition for it I've never, in that same vein I never wanted to

tell my story but my dad was hard worker he was uneducated I think he, I don't know if he finished high school, but he grew up in a poor rural area in South Korea. And my mother was from a middle or well-to-do class family in South Korea.

Her father, my grandfather was a professor at Seoul University. And so they came over here and my dad worked for what he didn't have, education he more than made up for with just pure grit and work ethic and like a lot of Korean Americans he especially in Los Angeles he owned a liquor store in in downtown Los Angeles near South Central and you know I think a lot of what I've become a lot of the decisions I've made in my life started with my father. And growing up, my father had, he had a lot of demons, like a lot of people and I think he did

the best he could to live within those, to live with those demons, but a lot of times he didn't have the mental strength to really not let those demons get a hold of him. And so much of what I've learned in my life has been what not to do by example of my father. And growing up, I mean, it seems, it just seems like a different life to me now. Because I've had different experiences, so many humbling experiences. When I think about where I came from, it seems like a big accident. This seems like an accident to be sitting here with you talking about this.

Everything I've done is an accident. Being a seal was an accident. Going to medical school, being a physician, being an astronaut, those were all accidents, not part of the plan at all. All I wanted to do as a kid growing up was protect my family. Protect really my mother and my brother from my father, who was very abusive. and like a lot of families suffered from alcoholism.

You know, some pretty bad alcoholism. So when you were, when you were experienced that growing up, at what age did you recognize that this was not normal? It's hard to put a number on when I knew it was not normal, but I remember at a very young age having that feeling to protect my brother, brother from it, you know, when the fights were going on or when the abuse is going on to try and shield him from it. Or, and I have a very distinct memory of actually trying to protect my mother one time.

And it didn't go well. And my mother also telling me to never do that again. Because out of love, you know, she didn't want to see me get hurt. So. And then at what age? I mean at some age did you get to a point where you could step in and defend your mom? You know, I'm sorry to talk about such heavy things. Beginning of a podcast, but you know, you wanted to want to know how it all started off.

Yeah, you know, that's why when I think about my life growing up, I was different. I was scared. I was a scared little boy. scared of the world, scared of relationships, scared of talking to people, going to school, of having my own opinions, of speaking up, or fighting for what I believe this, right? I was so scared. I was definitely scared my father. And, you know, it was just living on eggshells to make sure to pray. You know, I prayed every night, hoping that things would get better or that my father would see the light and, you know, all those

experiences while they were terrible at the time, I wouldn't take, I wouldn't trade any of that for anything. I would never want to trade that. Because everything that happened, helped form me into the person I am today and we'll talk about it the teams helped channel that into good so what point did you hear about the teams so I was 16 years old and I would say being lost was probably a good description of how I felt up until that time and I was you know it's doing like a martial arts thing with my buddies and I was mostly just doing because a couple of my buddies Ryan Callumson Keith Blum were big into martial arts and I wanted

just to hang out and my buddy Keith told me with passion I've never seen before about the SEAL teams about a Navy SEAL and this is 1999 or 2000 this is like no No one knew what a seal was. This is pre-9-11. I had never heard what the seal was. And he told me with this passion about that quiet professional, that warrior that does these hard things that no one else wants to do and never seeks recognition for those actions. And there was something about that, about that creed that drew me in a way I've never felt

before. He called for me. And, you know, so I went home and went on my 56K modem. and read everything I could about what it was the seal is. And I read a book that was pretty formative for me. It was The Men with Green Faces by Gene Wentz. And my decision was made. I'm like, this is what I'm going to do.

And a week after discovering what it was, I told my mom, I'm going to be a Navy SEAL. And she had no idea what it was. You had to explain it to her, I assume? I mean, she just, she didn't know what it was. She just knew it was being a warrior, some type of soldier, an operator. And it was the last thing she wanted to hear from me. Did you get drawn to it?

I mean, imagine, like, you know, you're saying that your whole life you felt scared and you felt weak and scared of your dad. Did you think, hey, if I do this, it's going to allow me, give me the capability to protect people, including my mom. Absolutely. That is completely on point. You know, when people ask me why I wanted to be a seal, it's so easy to come up with the superficial reasons.

Like, yeah, I wanted to get paid to blow up stuff and jump out of planes and surf my country and shoot guns. But those are all fake superficial reasons. Those are absolute pluses, but that is not why I wanted to be a team guy. I wanted to be a team guy for what you said. I wanted to transform my life. I wanted to learn the skills, to develop the strength, to become a different person, to find my identity, be someone that could protect the people that I loved

that couldn't protect themselves. And now that I have more awareness of human psychology and the experiences in our environment and how it shapes us into the people we become and the decisions we make, I realized that it was completely born out of my situation with my father and wanting to protect my brother and my mother and that extending to really all people. I thought, this is not, it just goes to show how little we know when we are young. I thought that being a seal would solve all of my life's problems. And it gave clarity and focus to so many, but it probably created just as many more. But it gave me tools to deal with those problems. But just it was a pretty naive thought.

And I even said it to my mother. I said, being the seal will solve all of life's problems. Were you, so you're in high school. Are you doing sports or anything like that? Yeah, so I was a big swimmer. I played water polo. And after I found out what it was to be a team guy, I did all my research. And I, what's this? Stu Smith, who I recently learned is in the world of kind of like making fitness, Navy SEAL guidelines and workout plans. I found his book, which is maybe like the first, like first edition or second. It might be a later edition now. And like did all those workouts. And then. you know, did it twice through and just tried to push myself every day after school. I went to Santa Monica High School, so the beach was three blocks away. So always doing swims and runs and a lot of calisthenics, a lot of push-ups. Was your, what about school? Were you paying attention in school?

Were you academically focused? I was. I didn't, I was, I felt like I was going through the motions of school and I did pretty well. And I always got straight. days I did pretty well but I knew college was not for me like I didn't I was lost I didn't know what I wanted to do after high school but I knew it wasn't college and so when I heard about the teams that calling that this is what I'm gonna do and it was it's to date it is the strongest calling I've had yeah there's I have conversations with people a lot and man that idea that that you should go to college right after you get done with high school.

I don't know if that's the best idea for everyone. I mean, for some people it works, I get it. But you're a classic example. I'm a classic example. I mean, when I ended up going to college later, hey, this is fine. You know, you're disciplined, you're focused. You can get stuff done. But, yeah, coming out of high school, I would have been just, you know,

the focus is not there. Yeah, you're not there for the right reasons. I think everything you can do in life should be for the right reasons. and going to school after high school because that's what your parents told you to do. And that's like the next default. It may work for some people. I don't think it's necessarily the right decision for a lot of people. Like you said, we're both prime examples of that.

I think we both went to undergrad in our later years in life. I was like 26 or 27 when I went to undergrad. Were you worried about when you went in the Navy that you weren't going to be around your mom? You weren't going to be around your little brother. Were you worried about them with your dad? I would have been, but my father actually passed away before. I joined the Navy, so I didn't have that worry. What age was that?

How old were you? I just turned 18. So it was close. Yeah, it was close. February 21st, 2002. And was that, I mean, that had to be a weird feeling of this guy that had been abusive to you, your brother, your mom. and but he's still your dad. I mean, how did you, how did you, how did you, how'd you wash out those feelings?

Oh, it's a complex question. And just, you know, I, I want to be clearly, I have no ill feelings against my father, and I have forgiven him of the years of abuse that he gave. And when I grew a little bit older and I understood where he came from, also came from a pretty terrible home situation. And I think his demons, he just didn't have the tools or the aptitude, the mental strength to deal with those demons. And like a lot of people, they pass those on, right? The sins of our father pass on to us. And I don't fault him. And with the abuse, most of it was directed at my mother, you know, verbal and the physical abuse. I mean, it was

not as direct with us. I mean, certainly there was, you know, the belts to the feet. And I remember I'm always kind of being scared to go to sleep sometimes because, you know, I think there were times where being woken up with a cold glass of water to the face was what would happen. or being woken up and being asked which of my possessions I had to choose what he would break in front of me. And I understand a lot of that was just to hurt my mother, and he did a good job of doing that. And so he saw that hurting his children

was the best way to actually hurt his mother because my mother was and is a very strong woman. And so physically or verbally abusing her to a point, it was like, well, just bring it. It's not, but hurt my children. it's going to crush me. When my father died, I feel like it was the day I was reborn into someone else. And I would probably have to backtrack and tell you the context of why I feel that way.

Towards the later years of high school, my mother had had enough of the life she had been experiencing. she would have left my father long ago, but it was really us, myself, my brother, Jeff, that she couldn't leave behind to my father. And there's no way my father would have left her, let her leave with us. That was not going to happen. So, but there was a time where she just couldn't be in the same household. So for months at a time, she had worked it or that she would actually sleep at a friend's house or go away. so at nighttime when my father came back, you know, the food, like my mother would prepare dinner and food, but she would be somewhere else.

And this arrangement was going on, and I think my father obviously not very happy with the situation, I thought it would go back to normal because there had been periods of time where my mother would leave for a little bit, but always came back because like a lot of abusive relationship, it's hard to leave that, right? And especially when the abuser promises they'll change and may change temporarily, but then goes back to their ways. It's a classic story. But this time was a little bit different, and I think my father knew that this time was different and was getting frustrated. And I think seeing that there were little options left, and I think maybe felt cornered. And I think cornered animals can be dangerous.

be very dangerous. Not that I think he was coroner, but I think he felt that way. So on this particular day, I think it was February 21st, 2002, I was home with my mother, and it was during the day, and my father came home, and he was supposed to be at work, so I think it was a little surprising. And I remember when he came. home I could smell the whiskey on his breath so I knew he was knew he was very intoxicated and it was just I could feel something was different this time

there was a tension and I knew I had to stick around and my mother was surprised and scared to see him there and they went in the kitchen and I stuck close by on the couch in the living room. And I remember my father came out to me, and some of the last words he said to me was, I'm sorry, Jonathan. And he pepper sprayed my face. And then all I hear in the kitchen is my mother screaming for help and saying he's got a gun. So I then

You know fight or flight do you do what you need to do to protect the people you love So I got up and I did my best to To fight him and get that gun And fought as hard as I could as as Strong as I guess a 140-pound-year-old kid could do at the time But I lost that fight and I still have a scar right around here from when my father was, he was able to get a hold of a dumbbell nearby and smash my head in with it.

And I think they kind of turned the fight and he was able to get his gun out of his pocket. He shot it in the air and it was, you know, that was the first time in my life that I faced a life or death situation and as you and I know there were many more to come later but for different reasons but this was my first taste of it and I don't know how maybe by the grace of God or something that I said

you know I remember clearly pleading with him that we loved him and that he didn't have to do this and that it wasn't I clearly remember saying that it's not too late. You have the power to decide right now. It's not too late. And I think maybe clarity or grace, in a moment of clarity that my father found,

he decided not to shoot us, not to kill us. And I told him to go run, just run. And he did. He went. He left the back door. and that was the last time I saw my father. You know, after that, in the hysteria of that, my mother was on the phone and called 911 and screaming for help.

And so eventually, you know, ambulances came and police came, and I got, you know, I got my head stapled at the hospital. I came back, and the police were there, write a report. And I came back into my room, and I noticed that things had shifted. I have a closet that has access to the attic, and I noticed that there were furniture was moved in such a way to gain access to the attic.

And I told the police that I think my father's still in the house, and he's in the attic. So they did what they're trained to do. They sectioned off the area. And confronted my father, and one thing led to another. I wasn't there, but shots were fired and my father was killed. And I remember that day so vividly. It was, I don't mean to sound callous, but in a lot of ways, it liberated me.

It certainly liberated my mother. It was one of the hardest and most sad days for her. But it liberated her and it liberated myself and my brother. And it taught me, it became the benchmark for me, to do so many more things in my life. Because I don't think I was meant to be a seal. I don't think I was born to do any of the things that I've had the opportunity to do, but is because of those experiences, being able to stand up to a person,

to a figure who I feared more than anyone, and to be able to do something that I never thought I could be possible doing, standing up to someone, especially someone who was threatening to kill you and the person you loved most. It was empowering. It taught, it liberated me. It taught me, I'm not the scared little boy.

I thought I was. I can do these things that I can be a part of something bigger than myself. And, you know, I remember having so much foolish, naive pride at the time. I was naturally being 18 and just so angry with the world, just having so much hate to my heart. I think a lot of, I had a lot of hate my heart as a kid. When I see my child, Christian, who is full of happiness and carefree, and it's like me in so many ways, I see him and I realize that is the person I would have become. And I want to protect that. But with the life, the cards I had been given, I just had a lot of hate in my heart, and I refused to cry.

Because I thought that was a form of weakness to cry for her. my father had passed. And I never, you know, didn't cry at his funeral or anything. And I remember that day, on that day when my father died, we went to the police department. And I'd already known what had happened. And I remember going in and there were three cops to the side. And you could, I could, I knew then and I also know just now of how war, Warriors talk. And the guy talking was motioning with his hands and he was recounting the story

that led to my father's death. You know, using his motions of how he entered and he saw us come in. And my brother was weeping and very naturally inconsolable and I was there. I think we made brief eye contact and I think I thank him for that because I think he had the clarity and and the respect to kind of stop what he was doing and realize that he was probably recounting a war story of someone he had killed and this family was just walking through. I haven't thought about that in a long time, but just telling the story made me remember that. And the police, the detective I taught to, he said, son, I'm sorry to tell you, but your father is dead. And this is one-on-one in a room.

And it was just emotionless, just stone face. And he said, I take it that this is not bad news. This is good. And I said, I'm just relieved, sir. And he said, I understand son. And it's just a day for so many reasons that helped me be reborn into the person. I wanted to become, that I've always wanted to become my entire life. And I knew from there that maybe, just maybe I had what it took to be a seal. Is there anything that you can think of?

Because like that, that's obviously just a harrowing story, but at some point you, or maybe it was some point along the way, or maybe it was multiple points along the way. But it's like you turned, instead of turning towards the darkness, right, instead of becoming a person that's abusive, instead of, you know, hating, like you said, you had hatred in your heart, which could have turned you in just a completely, you know, a totally different direction in your life.

Is there anything that you can think of that made you look up and say, you know, and this is for me right now, you know, this is my first time hearing this stuff. And, you know, I, when you, when you, when you applied to become an officer, and become a PA. I think that's what you were originally applying for.

Were you trying to become a PA? For me, it was always being a physician. Okay. So you're applying for the medical thing, and I remember I'm sitting on your medical board or your officer board, and I'm with, it's me as a seal and two, like one, regular officer

and then like a doctor officer. And I remember, I said something along the lines of, because you know me, I kind of say whatever I want, but I said something along the lines of like, Hey, I don't like hospitals. I don't like doctors.

I don't like nurses. I don't like any of that stuff. I have no idea why you would ever want to do this. I don't know why you want to go be in a hospital all day. And I said, but if I had to have someone taking care of my kids, I would want it to be you. Because I knew you had this just, that you were a very compassionate person, that you really cared about other people. I mean, I saw that from day one with you. and now it's so obvious.

Well, part of it's obvious. Part of it's obvious that you can go with these experiences that you went through. I mean, we see it every day that people go in two directions with those, you know, when horrible things like that happen, they can follow in those footsteps of evil, for lack of a better word, or they can recognize that it's evil and they can go in the other direction, which is what you did. And I'm just wondering, is there, can you, are there any pieces that you can put together that you can say to yourself, well, one of the things that you saw was this and this made you think, you know what?

The way my father acted was wrong and I'm not going to be that way. It's a good question. I don't think I have an answer for you. I think that's a question that a lot of people would love answered, especially with so much abuse. and dysfunction in society, in America, all over the world. We would love to know what it is that allows people to sublimate their bad experiences to channel it for a good cause.

And I'm not here to tell you I was never on the path to darkness. I am by no means a saint or have always done good things I have done things that I am not proud of. I've sinned. I sinned every day. I try and keep that light there as a guiding path for good all the time. And one of the reasons why I wanted to be a doctor was not because I was in love with medicine.

I mean, I do like medicine, but it's to serve to a cause greater than myself that leaves a positive mark in this world. It's the same reason why I wanted to be an astronaut. I think being a seal was maybe a little bit more selfish for the reasons we talked about because I wanted to be a part of, I wanted to find my identity. I don't know.

I think my mother had a large part into it. She's one of the strongest women I know. And seeing that strength and that selflessness and that sacrifice, She sacrificed her dreams. She could have been someone. She's a smart woman. She's a beautiful woman.

She didn't have to be with my father. But after having two boys and loving her children so much that she would sacrifice her dreams, her potential to protect us, I think that had a significant effect on. me. So if there's anyone to credit, it wouldn't be my mother. I don't, I don't know if I have the answer, though. Well, certainly seeing an example. And, you know, I've been talking about this lately when you, sometimes it's not easy to see something if there's not a contrast against it, but for you to see the contrast of someone that's bad, you know, your dad,

doing bad things, abusing weaker people. I mean, that's just bad. And you might not have noticed how bad that was if it weren't contrasted so drastically against your mom who is making the ultimate sacrifice with her life and standing up for you and taking that abuse and staying in that situation because she wanted to take care of you kids.

And I think when you see that, Sometimes it makes things just more obvious. It's something that you may not have seen otherwise. If your mom was, you know, if your mom was just as abusive or she had her own problems or she was doing things that were wrong, you may have just thought that's the way the world is and that's the way you're going. Yeah. But to be able to see, oh, it doesn't have to be like this. And there's good in people's hearts is that that could be for a kid, the difference. Yeah, I mean, all good points, and it's so weird to be saying, to be recounting this story.

I've never said this story publicly. And you said to yourself, you've never heard of this story. If you ask most guys from Charlie Petun, they have not heard. Actually, I think if you ask all but one, maybe one person, they have not heard this story. and it's just something I kept close to my chest because everyone has their story. I don't think my story is any more important than anyone else's. And we talked a little bit before this podcast, but I'm a little at unease and still am about being on a podcast like this because it's so, I don't want to say it's contrary to my beliefs, but it just requires being extra thoughtful.

and I think that creed we all swore to to not advertise and promote the nature of our work and never seek recognition for that. And I take that creed to heart. So it's weird for me to be recounting this story publicly, and if it was up to me, I'd keep it close to the chest for all my days. But as I've grown older, I've come to realize that, There is value for other people. I'm not the only person in this situation.

And frankly, there are people in way worse situations than I was in who are still in it for them to know that you can be born with bad cards. You don't need to have it all, but you have a choice and the power to craft your own destiny, your own path. And for that reason, I think it's a, I think it is less important that I keep stuff like this close to my chest. And then that's why I'm sharing it with you. Well, that's, that's, that's, that's one of the very reasons why this podcast even exists is for people to learn what other people go through, that they're not alone, that things could be worse for them, they could get better. I mean, that's so exactly what you said is the exact reason why sharing that story is absolutely important because people can, people can learn from it.

People can get over their own things that they're facing because they know that someone else did it. I mean, how powerful is it? You know, you hear the story all the time about the first guy, Bannister broke the four mile time or the four minute mile. No one thought it was possible. Once he did it, all kinds of people did it. So just knowing that someone like you can go from this. horrible place and do what you've done, yeah, that's a, that's huge. Did these events as they unfolded impact your decision to join the Navy?

And at what point did you go down to the recruiter and sign up? So I was, so when my father died, it was a few months before graduating high school. And I was already depped in. I had a ship date. So I had already gone and signed the paperwork. I mean, not the final dot in line that makes you. in the Navy and you know you raise your right hand and do the enlisted oath but my mind was set I mean my mind was set a week after Keith Blum told me what a Navy SEAL was back when I was 16

I mean it was clear like I'm going to do this and no one is going to be able to convince me otherwise and I talked to people and people ask me too like I think I want to be a seal and I don't know if this is a litmus test but I always try and convince people to not do it And I feel like if I can convince someone to not do it, I just perhaps have saved them in the money a lot of time and money. Because if I can convince you to not be a seal, then you probably will convince yourself at the first sign of suffering. So, but I was not convinceable.

You could not convince me to do anything. And the conversation, this is crazy. I'm pulling up memories I have not thought of in years. the conversations I had crafted that I was planning to tell my father, because I could not tell my father I was joined the Navy. No way. He would have, you know, you may have quite literally killed me. I think that would have been very upsetting to him because he had a clear path for me, and it was to be, it was to be a doctor at Harvard Medical School. And I promise you, that is not why I went to Harvard Medical School.

But it was to do that. And for me, I was like, there's no way I'm going to do that. I'm not going to live your dream. I don't want to be a doctor. I don't want to go to an Ivy League school. I want to be in the trenches. I want to enlist. I want to be the E1 working my way up, learning from everyone else,

learning the ropes, and roughing it. Being in the trenches with boys. That's all I wanted to do. And I crafted how I would tell me. my father, I was actually going to join the academy. And I was thinking I had this plan to go to the exchange and buy an officer's uniform. So when I would come home, I would like show up in an officer's uniform just to like maintain this perception to my father that I was in the academy.

And these were like the ropes, the extent that I had planned because I was so afraid to tell my father. And fortunately, I didn't have to do any of that because my father died. it sounds callous but fortunately I did not have to go through that deceit because my father passed away and I don't mean to paint my father

in a bad light really I love my father I do I couldn't I could not have said that I was unable to say those words for a very long time what I do love my father and I understand he was human

and fell to sin and his demons, you just didn't have the clarity and the tools to deal with that. And I forgive him for that. So I don't mean to paint my father in a bad light. And as I said before, I would not trade those experiences for anything because they were formative. And everything I am today started with that darkness. When you were talking about going into whatever going into the recruiter and all that and I'm imagining when I did it when I remember being because you were talking about feeling you know liberated before when your dad died I know that when I joined the Navy man I felt like so awesome like I felt like I didn't need anybody else I was a hundred percent. Like you had no one had any control over me anymore.

I just kind of at that moment when I signed that dotted line, I now was in control of my fate. Even though most people would look at the opposite, oh, you're in the Navy now and you're going to have to follow orders and wear uniforms and all this stuff. To me, it was complete and utter freedom. That's what it felt like. Now, so you graduate high school.

So did you graduate? You're 18 years old or you 17 years old? I was 18 when I graduated high school. And you go to Navy Boot. camp. Yep. How was that? I'm still in the Navy. I'm an active duty lieutenant, so I will maintain my level of respect and deference to the ways of the Navy, but Navy boot camp is just wasn't as trying as I thought it would. I think when you have the idea that you're going to be a seal, you prepare yourself for a different standard. So when you go to boot camp,

have you show up. It's just a little different. Yeah. Well, the focus is on like attention to detail. It's more of a pain. The way I look at it. More of a pain. Like you're like, oh, this is a pain because you have to make your bed and you have to fold your underwear a certain way. And you have to do all these things that more than their physical pain, they're just a pain. Just a pain. There's a rhyme and reason for why they do things. And I think it works.

You know what? I smile. I chuckle and I smile when I think about Navy Bookin because that's where it all started. I mean, I loved it. Like you said, you felt free. I felt free. I felt I had no one, like, you know, when my dad died, I just felt this weight on my shoulders, just released. Like I had never felt before. And for the first time, I didn't have to worry about my brother or my mother. So, and I just wanted to get away. I, the teams, the military, it was my ticket to, escape in the childhood I was born into. This idea of Jonathan that people had knew as a scared little boy, I needed a reset button, and the military was my reset button.

Now I'm going to start anew with people I don't know who have no idea where I came from of my background and I am going to go through the ranks on my own merit and hard work and learn how to be led and lead. others and it was the best decision I've ever made and every time I say that I think of my wife because I think marrying my wife was the best decision I made but it's a little different you understand what I mean by it was the best decision for me in my growth and development to join the military and it's not like that for everyone I'm not trying to sound like a recruiter join the military it's not for everyone but it was for me I would tell you that

Well, this is true for my wife for sure. If I wasn't, if I didn't join the Navy, if I didn't go in the teams, my wife, A, probably wouldn't have married me because I wouldn't have been the human that I am. And to this day, if, like, the reason that we're happily married is rooted in the fact that I was in the dames. Whether she likes it or not, she knows it's true. Like, you have that always. And it's always a, it always is a part of you. So it sounded like you were pretty well prepared for buds in terms that you played water polo. You were a good swimmer.

You were working out on the beach in Santa Monica. It sounds like physically you were pretty good to go. I would say in most aspects, I think I put an over reliance on calisthenics and body weight exercises. I mean, I could crush the PS, whatever they're calling it now, the PST, you know, the time run. and swim and pull-ups and all that stuff. I could crush that. But you put weight on me, you put a log on me, you put a boat on me.

How much did you weigh going to butts? I was 140, 45 pounds. I'm 180, I think, 185 now. I'm a lot stronger now than I was back then. But I'm also a lot slower. Like, I probably couldn't run as fast as back then. But I didn't understand strength the way I do now. I didn't incorporate barbells into my.

routine. It was all body weight stuff. So it was definitely an over-reliance on the body weight exercises, calisthenics, running swimming. And if I could redo it, I would have eaten a lot more calories. During buds or before buds? Before buds. Just to be bigger and stronger. Just to be bigger and stronger and I would have squatted it. And warmer. And yeah, I would have squatted a lot. And just like just the same, you know, shoulder presses, bench press, squatting, dead lifts. I would, I didn't know of that. before preparing for buds. And so I feel I was prepared, but I wasn't prepared in that respect.

Then was there anything that gave you like real problems in buds? Like did you make it through one class? Did you get rolled back at all? No, I was lucky enough to make it through with 247 in one shot. You started with 247 and then you graduated with 247. Did you fail anything? No. Oh, because you were comfortable in the water from water polo.

So you know for dive phase? Yeah. I thought that dive phase was was great. I was very comfortable being thrown around in the water because you're right. I mean, just from playing a water polo you're used to being like people are watching drown. Yeah. Yeah.

So being thrashed around in pool comp wasn't a big deal. I mean, everyone is capable. The water, you were your own greatest enemy in the water, right? If you just maintain clarity and focus and calm your nerve. everything will be okay. It's when you thrash, you panic, you get air hungry. That plays on you. And that's when you really, people have a hard time, I think, when it comes to water-related

activities. Well, yeah, that's why I immediately went to, and you said, oh, you made it through everything. I immediately was like, oh, yeah, you played water polo. Because what is it that trips people up? Okay, you're going to be tired. That can trip some people up. You're going to be cold. They don't want to be cold anymore, so they quit.

Like those two things, hey, running and swimming pretty much. much, or sorry, running, pretty much like you're going to get put on the grind there and your times are going to drop and you're going to be, there's not too many people that get dropped for running. It happens for sure. It's not too many people that get dropped for obstacle course. Water, though, that's the separator, right? So if you're comfortable in the water going to buds, man, you have a huge leg up because

all those little things you just rattled off as if it's no big deal, like don't panic, don't get air hungry. Like, that's really easy when you're a water polo player. but for these dudes from Iowa that didn't grow up in the water, you know, unless they grew up on a lake somewhere, I mean, there were some guys in my class. There was one guy in particular that was from Iowa,

and he was a wrestler, and he was strong, and he was fast, and he was an incredible shape, and the dude sank, and he just panicked in the water every single time, and he quit. Yeah. You know, so I think that's a big separator. But I have so much respect for the folks who didn't have that kind of background

of being so comfortable with the water. I don't want to say his name because he's still active and he's over a damn neck, but let's say just his first name. My buddy Tyler, who I went through, he was like my sister division in boot camp. And I have so much respect for Tyler for just the way he carries himself and how he's just a very hard man. But he showed up to boot camp and didn't know how to do the side stroke. That's insane. And he learned in the locker room before the PSD.

And this guy is like one of the most squared away and prepared guys ever. And to this day, I give him like, I'm like, how did you show up and not know how to do the side stroke? But just from sheer willpower, he made it through and like performed very well. We were swim buddies, dive buddies. So he performed very, very well. So I just chuckle. And so I have a lot of respect for people who are not comfortable, but through sheer willpower, will, get knocked out.

You know that 50 meters swim? If you've played a water polo swim, that's not a big deal to do 50 meter underwater swim. It gets uncomfortable, sure. But there are folks who go to the light, right? They go unconscious. And I have so much respect for that level of determination. Like, I would rather die than give up.

And, you know, and it's just, I don't know. I have to give props to that. Was there any moments in buds where you were like, man, I don't know if this is for me or did that not even cross your mind? So I want to be clear. I was not a stellar performer, but I was middle of the pack, runner, swimmer, everything with the longs, the boats. You know, there's a standard to Hellwig. It's not just don't quit. You need to perform to a standard.

And for me, I just wanted to make it clear I was giving my heart in everything I did so that my, I cared more about what my boat crew thought than my instructors. There was one instructor who I still remember instructor Megan, who I think just had it out for me. You know, I was just a skinny kid from Los Angeles. And I cared so. I just wanted to put all I was like if I just put out, put out my boat crew will accept me.

and I remember a guy in my boat with Nick Chack who passed away during a hostage rescue, who gave the ultimate sacrifice. Him and my buddy, Steve, another guy there, gave me that reassuring, like, hey, you belong here. That meant so much to me. So a lot of times I don't understand when a person who is in Buds and is not a performer and everyone else wants him to quit, how they could, how they could, like, be there? Because I care so much about what my brothers think that if they didn't want me there, I would never be there.

I would never want to slow anyone else down. I don't know. To answer your question, you know, there were certainly hard times. I don't think there was ever a time where I wanted, like, I'm going to quit. But there was definitely times where I wanted the pain to stop. And one particular time I remember was, you know that two-hour nap you get in buds or in hell week? In hell week, yeah.

You're in a nice, warm sleeping bag on a cot and they wake you up. I don't know if they still do this, but they wake you up and they just whisper like, get up and hit the surf. In like the nicest, most compassionate voice. And it disarms you, right? Because they have circumvented that fight or flight response, right? you don't have you you don't mount that defense you just immediately get woken up very nicely and get sent to the cold water and that was the closest where I was like I want this to stop I want this pain

and suffering to stop but as far as like being like I want to quit or I'm going to quit that wasn't there for me yeah that's totally understandable I always hear that thing that everyone thinks about quitting and I'm like I didn't think about quitting at all I was like whatever bring it yeah I think there's a difference between wanting to think about quitting and thinking about just the just wanting it to stop yeah well this definitely sucks yeah but you know what I was like he said you felt free when I showed some buds and I got wet and sandy I got my buddy Jordan Lewis I got a picture of when we first got wet and sandy in white shirts and we're just beaming with smiles of this

selfie just like I was so happy to be there I was so happy to be starting my journey of embracing that suffering and suck What year is it right now? What year did you go to Buds? So 247 started in early 2000, spring in 2003. Spring, summer, 2003. So we were in Hell Week in fall, 2003. And then we, you know, we graduated Budz in 2004 early.

So you know you're going to war or at least hoping you are? Yeah, I mean, absolutely when, you know, people ask me, did you join because of 9-11? And, I mean, frankly, I already told you this, but I joined for very, I think, more selfish reasons. But 9-11 only galvanized me to want to join even more. And if anything, just how naive I was, I was a little bummed out. This is my 18-year-old self saying, oh, the war is going to be done by the time I get there.

I missed it. I'm 18 years old. This is 2002. And I could not have been any more wrong. But, of course, when at that time, especially in my development, I wanted war, I think. I think it's hard to articulate why. But a lot of people feel this way who train to do something. They want that.

And I don't know how I'm sure we can talk at length about how we each now feel about the experiences we've gone through. And I wouldn't trade for anything, but war is, I don't know about you. but it was pretty ugly. Yeah, for sure. You know, I had, I was on a guy named Sam Harris's podcast, and he called me out because, you know, I talk about how, like, leading men in combat is the best thing in my life. And then I also say war is absolute, you know, the most horrible thing in the world. And he goes, how do you reconcile those two things?

And the way I explained it to him, I said, have you ever met someone that has cancer that survives? And when they get through, they say, They say, you know, I'm glad it happened to me because they learned so much. They would never wish it on anybody. Well, that's pretty much exactly how I feel about war. I've never heard that analogy, but I think it's on point. I would never trade it for anything. And I would go back in the trenches right now in a split second with my brothers.

I would go back in that environment right now. But I would never wish it on my own children. And I hope they never see it. You get done with buds, and then you, when did you know you were going to be going to 8? Did you go to 18 Delta? I did. Yeah. So when I talk about accidents, like that was another accident.

So, you know, the recruiters are, they have. What's the difference between accidents and luck? Because you keep calling things accidents. Some of it sounds like it might be a little bit more luck. Some of it's luck that you made. Accidents, I don't know. I think what I'm trying to point out is that there wasn't a plan. Got it.

Not a plan at all. I mean, the plan for me was just, like I told you, all I wanted to be was a seal. I had no idea, no aspirations to be a physician, to be an astronaut. I just want one goal at a time. That's really important to me, even to this day, that you have one singular goal because you should be all in and what you're doing. you should be genuine in what you're doing, not have some social climbing,

some professional ladder that you're trying to meet these goals and these stepping stones. And why I said accidents, because I didn't want to be a corpsman. In fact, I wanted to be an intelligent specialist because it sounded cool. Sounded cool.

Or an operations. I had no idea what an IS or an OS, which is the rating for those two jobs. I didn't know. I just sounded cool, but I would have shipped out later. And I'm like, I want to ship out as soon as, I want to go away as soon as possible. What's the rate that will get me there the fastest? And I said, son, you've got to be a corpsman.

Like, what's a corpsman? Well, you do this stuff. You get to do the hospital stuff. I don't want to do that. I don't like, I want to be on the mission. Like if I'm like in the unlikely event I made it through, I don't want to be the medic that doesn't get to do any cool stuff. Come to find out, that's completely not true.

at all. So that's why I say it's an accident. I didn't plan it that way. And after SQT, seal qualification training, I got sent to Fort Bragg to learn how to be a combat medic. And then how long is that school? That was six months. And you know. Whoever told you that this is where someone lied to you? Because whoever told you the fastest way to get to the teams is to be a corpsman was just wrong. Well, I think for me, I was okay with that because I had already, I just wanted to get the But and they're like, you know, the fastest.

Oh, I see the fastest way to get the buds was go Corby. Or the fastest way to join the Navy just to get like, because I'm like, me to talk on recruiter, sir, I want to get out of here as soon as possible. What do I need to do? You need to be a corpsman. Okay, I'll be a corpsman. Whatever. Figure it out later.

When you got to, when you started doing 18 Delta, the school, the medical school, did you start, did you find it interesting? Were you kind of like, wow, this is cool? Oh, absolutely. I'm fascinated by any. that's challenging. If it's engineering, space, medicine, anything that challenges you, it's fascinating. So I thought it was completely fascinating. I loved, I came to learn that medicine is pretty cool. And I took it seriously. Though I didn't want to be the medic, I understand

the gravity of that, that kind of honor that you are entrusted with the lives of your teammates. That's a huge honor. And I took it seriously. So once the decision was made that I'm going to do that, I was all in. Like, I'm going to be the best medic I can be. And being at 18 Delta, honestly, those six months were more difficult than any time I had in medical school because it's so much material crammed into six months on how to be a trauma combat medic. And you learn a lot of skills.

I mean, you learn how to do chest tubes, which is a procedure that physicians train years through medical school and residency to learn how to do. And you learn how to do that in six months. crazy procedures, life-saving procedures. And I have to give props and respect to the Army because I think that they train the best medics, really. And I think that their culture surrounding combat medics is on point to maintain that currency.

So I had a great time at Fort Bragg is not the best of places to be stuck in, but I had a great time learning from our Army brothers and sisters. Yeah, the way that we train our medics and the feats that they're able to perform on the battlefield are awesome, keeping guys alive. It's amazing. So you get done with that, and for some reason, you show up at SEAL Team 3, and what was SEAL Team 3 on deployment when you showed up? Or what was going on? Yeah, somehow you ended up going to sniper school, right? I know.

Which is totally ridiculous. It is. So for anybody that doesn't know, if you're a new guy. in the SEAL teams you don't get to go to sniper school normally a guy's going one platoon maybe even two platoons maybe even three platoons before a guy gets the the honor of going to one of the most coveted schools in the SEAL teams which is the sniper school it's a hard school but it's a qual that everybody wants everyone wants to go to that school and somehow accidentally luckily whatever you want to

call it you show up to team three and you go right to sniper school as a medic, which is another school that everybody wants, because it's a great qual because all of a sudden you can, you've got an actual, an actual marketable skill as a human being, besides like, hey, I can walk point and shoot a machine gun.

That doesn't get you anywhere. But hey, I can save people's lives. That's a huge skill. And you're getting two of the best skills that the SEAL teams has to offer as a new guy. Undeservedly, absolutely. You know, I change,

and I also change my, viewpoint of medics because I didn't realize I was going through SQT Thai Woods who I'm sure you know passed away he was one of my instructors in SQT and he's a medic he was a corpsman too and he was like dude don't you know that the medic always has to go on the mission it always gets to go always goes like what are you talking about what you don't want to be the medic so that changed my perspective on medicine in the teams because I just wanted to be a shooter like you know and in no disrespect to the officers of the SEAL teams, but I wanted to be the one pulling the trigger.

I wanted to be in the deepest of the trenches. I know you understand where I'm coming from because you were enlisted before you became an officer. And I have no idea how I got sniper school. I showed up. Team 3 was still on deployment, and they're like, new guy. Go to sniper school. Roger that, I will.

And for me, you know, I had, you know, I had an awareness of where I stood on the tonal pole. I knew his new guy. I knew I was smaller stature and I just wanted to prove myself. I was just so hungry to do a good job. And so I knew sniper school was going to be hard, but I'm like, man, I'm not going, I'll do everything to not fail this and bring this asset to the platoon.

And I'm so thankful of whoever it was that allowed me to go to sniper school as the new guy before Team 3 showed up. from deployment. How'd you do in Sniper School? I, so it's like three, I don't know how it is now. It's three phases,

you know, the first phase is like pick. It's like photographic image capture where you basically learn how to use an SLR camera to take facial recognition pictures basically if you're, you know,

SR or special reconnaissance. And that's all geek stuff. Like using computers, setting up a network, sending, you know, sending pictures through radio waves. I love that stuff.

And that was, came naturally to me. the second part was scouting and scouting you also have to pass the you have to get a certain score on the rifle on the stocking

the stocking and the rifle course like you know 200 yard Marine Corps test to add a penalty we would have to do which is a pretty hard test it's all iron sights and I had never shot a gun I was going to say that's why I was asking you this question

because you know like I already said most people going to sniper school have at least one deployment, if not two or three. And, you know, you shoot thousands and thousands of rounds every workup and deployment. So you're improving your skills. But you were coming right out of buds going to that with very, you know, with no experience. Yeah. I mean, you shoot very minimally. Like, you don't know, you don't learn how to be a seal in buds. You just learn how to suffer. Yeah. And then you go to SUT and you get a little taste of what it's like to learn some tactics, but you don't really know anything still. And you get to shoot a little bit,

but it's not that much. So I didn't have that much. And like, I didn't grow up in a rural area where I had access to guns. And so I didn't shoot. I had very little shooting experience showing up to sniper school. So that was hard. And actually, if I remember this correctly, there was a point where I almost did not make it through because you have to get a certain score on the rifle. But something clicked.

I mean, if you just stick with a points of performance, front sight focus, body positioning, follow through, breathing, like they work. Yeah. Right. And you just, I don't know if it's rounds or just perspective, but eventually things clicked for me. And I started to do actually pretty well in the shooting part. And the stalking was also something I struggled with.

But once I learned the, I just had to geek it out and just kind of dissect what stalking is. And all stalking is, there's really two phases of it, right? you have dead space. What dead space is is if you know, if you have a known observer, you put a piece of earth between you and the observer, line of sight, that person cannot see you.

You could have a parade in that lane of dead space and you could just walk your merry way because stalking was a timed evolution, but it was also, you had to get a certain qualification by a certain amount of time. If you had all day, then it would be a lot easier. And obviously, if you don't have dead space, then you just have to learn the human physiology.

Like the human eye is attracted to movement, especially a night. So if you understand that and just slow your role, be cautious, be thoughtful, every step you take, every movement, be slow, methodical with your stalking to get to that shooting position, to take that shot, things become a lot easier. And it took me. So that phase was hard. And I think I actually may have almost failed out if I remember correctly, but I was able to get through. And the last portion was the actual just shooting portion. And that came much better for me.

I think I learned those points of performance and sticking with that. And I loved the math behind shooting at long range. And people think, like, well, how hard is you just put a reticle on what you're trying to shoot. I'm like, that's not what a sniper is. You very rarely are shooting by putting your reticle on a target. Like, yeah, sure, if you have the time to dial and click in to your windage and your dope, which is another word for elevation, sure, you put your reticle on that, and that's perfect, great. But in the real world, there's changing winds, there's moving targets, and there are targets of opportunity

that are not sited in to your two or 300 yards that your scope is at. It might be a target that's 600 yards and you're doped in at 300 or a target that's 100 yards and you're doped in at 300. So you have to learn these math problems. Like, well, if there's a left-to-right wind, I know that and I have to aim to the right side of the person's body

or maybe it's an extreme wind, so I'm going to be more conservative and aim even further to the left. Or the person is further than I'm doped in. So I'm going to make sure I'm aiming one or two body links higher than the person, right? It's a math problem and it's an art. So I loved the geeky side of that. So I mean, I was all about it and I was so happy.

And so I felt so privileged to have to gain that skill set to bring back to my platoon. So now you get done with that and that school actually overlapped with the beginning of Tasking a Bruiser and a workup So you showed up late as a new guy to our desert training facility out in the Imperial Valley desert And I actually remember when you showed up very very clearly and there's a backstory that I'm not sure you know about this So we're out there at the desert training facility and And, you know, some of the more senior guys had hazed the shit out of some of the guys. And I saw what was going on and they were doing, they did some stuff that was like dumb.

And so I grabbed the chiefs. And I was like, hey, guys, I got to talk to you. So it was the two platoon chiefs and the task unit senior enlisted advisor. I was like, hey, guys, got to talk to you. We got outside. I was like, listen, guys. I get it. You guys need to tighten it up.

This is bullshit. You know, like, look, I get what you're doing. I get that this stuff takes place. It's okay. But if you're going to be stupid about what you're doing, we're all going to get in trouble and it's going to be a problem. So tighten it up and don't let me see this shit anymore. And the guys are like, hey, Roger that.

I literally walk inside the compound or I walk back inside the building and you had showed up like wall like wall. I was talking to those guys and you got welcomes to your platoon by getting, you know, assaulted and your head partially shaved like they didn't do a good job. And so I'm standing there and I come walking, walking in and someone's like, hey, Kim, go report to the commander. You have no idea who I am, but they're like pointing at me and you look like you just, I mean, your eyes are freaking giant and you just look like you just walked into into the craziest things you've ever seen and you come walking around you got a ball cap on and I'm looking at you and you're

standing at a position of attention I mean it's just hilarious and and I'm looking at your hair and I can see that the guys have obviously just roughed you up and partially like shaved chunks out of your hair and you're like sir I'm I'm Petty Officer Kim or I'm HM 3 Kim or HM-3 Kim or HM Kim, whatever you were, I'm reporting on board. And I was like, hey, bro, nice to meet you, man. Just something really chill like that. But that was pretty funny. That's the backstory.

The guys, me just literally tightening them up and tell them not to be idiots. And I walk in and four seconds later, I'm meeting you. And it looked like you just got slapped around and your head shaved. I have never heard that backstory. That's amazing. Yeah, I got. I got welcome to the platoon. I think it was a mullet.

That thing I had a mullet. I was given a mullet. That's right because you had really long hair too coming out of sniper school, no one's seen you in a while. See you had long hair. They weren't going to have none of that. Who is this new guy showing up long hair?

Yeah, and I totally asked for it. But, you know, so many emotions when you show up to your Patoon, like a lot of guys, I was just so hungry to be accepted to be a good job. look, I can put out, I'm an asset, like, I want to be here because I want to be here. And getting welcome like that was, I wanted that. And it's a different world.

I feel like I was fortunate enough to see two sides of the Navy because that is certainly not at all condoning that behavior. But it is what it is. It is what it was. And I've kind of at the cusp where I got to see that side of the teams. I'm sure it still goes on, but it's changed a little bit, right? But it changed a lot. It was on a glide slope the whole time that I was in. I mean, when I first showed up to the teams, it was, it was dumb and out of control.

And, you know, and just like what you're saying, like there's parts where you go, oh, yeah, that made sense. And then there was other people that were just idiots and it was totally out of control. And it needed to be tightened up. And I saw that glide slope the whole time I was in. And, you know, it got to a point where, which is what it was kind of like for us, like, hey, idiots. What are you doing? If I'm the commander and I see what you idiots are doing, you're wrong. And don't be stupid and don't do things that you're going to get in trouble for.

I mean, it's just dumb stuff. So there's, you know, unfortunately, it's a hard thing to police because in order to police it, you'd have to say, okay, you can do this, but you can't do that. Hey, when I first joined, I was on a ship and we went across the damn equator. And it was a, you know, you become a, do you ever heard of this? You become a shellback. Yeah, yeah. So I did that.

It was one of the worst hazing sessions I ever had. It was completely condoned by the entire U.S. Navy. What's a shellback? Someone that has been over the equator. So if you've never crossed the equator, then you're a, then you're a, what's it, a wog? I think it's a polywog or a wog, but they call you a wog. And then once you go across the equator and you go through this big ceremony, which is just a

big hazing session, then you become a trusty shabong. shell back. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I mean, they did everything that that would happen. Like, you know, they were dunking. They were feeding you crappy foods. They were beating you with like cut off fire hoses.

It was legit hazing. Yeah. And of course, some of that stuff, you go, okay, I get it. It's a tradition. It's a welcome aboard. Like you said, it's a welcome. And of course, there's people that are idiots that take it too far. And that's what you, that's what you end up having to correct for.

You have to end up having to correct for. You have to end up having to correct for people that are stupid, people that are sadistic, people that don't have any common sense, and it turns into a problem. So, yeah, everything you said is on point. I think you have to understand the intent behind an action, right? If it's malicious, which sometimes it turns malicious for some people, that's not right. Now, if it's a way to welcome someone aboard or to feel part of, you know, the brotherhood,

the sisterhood, like, welcome, this is what it's like. I think the spirit of that is, I understand the spirit of that, but you're right, it requires people to be judicious to have, to exercise good common sense. And unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. Yeah, and the blanket thing that happens in a big organization like the Navy is like, okay, look, we don't know how to, we don't know how to judiciously do this. We don't want to put regulations around it, so we're not doing it anymore. And you know what? That was actually one of the worst things that used to happen if there was a guy that people, that a platoon sort of rejected, like an organ rejection, where, you know, you get a kidney transplant and your body can reject it. Sometimes that happens in a platoon.

And what would happen, it wouldn't, it'd be the opposite. It'd be like, that guy's not getting hazed. He's not getting, you know, razzed by the troops. People aren't making fun of them for this, that, or the other thing. That's when you know a guy is a real problem. when he's actually so far outside that spectrum that they go, you know what, we don't even, we don't even want to, we don't even want to do that with this guy because he's not one of us and we don't want him as part of the team.

Wise words. I've always heard that, and I believe it, if you weren't getting rattled, if you weren't being made fun of, then people didn't like you. And that's just the culture. I think it's hard for people outside of that community to understand why we were so hard in each other and why. it was born out of love. It really is.

It's a lot of those actions and just the way we conducted ourselves. And, I mean, some of the people, closest friends, we were just, you know, just dog on each other all the time to this day. Yeah. It's a, it's a, I guess, a weird environment to grow up in. Because I'm like you, like, I joined the Navy when I was 18. And that's what you, that's what you, you just go into this. environment and it's just like you're saying when I got into that environment I was like

this is so awesome this is the coolest thing ever this is the people I want to be around with forever and yeah you know what if you got out of line you would get tightened up you would get tightened up and you know that's something I I've talked about is like in task unit bruiser I'm the commander of task unit bruiser the amount of times that I personally had to tighten up a guy for being late was zero the amount of times I had to personally tighten up a guy for forgetting his gear was zero the amount of times I had to tighten someone up for being out of uniform was zero because the freaking gang took care of that and the gang was gonna make sure that we were squared away and and that's what that mentality is kind of like it's kind of like a gang mentality as it should be in that respect yeah yeah but that was your welcome aboard was it was funny so and so then all of a sudden you're you're dropped

into the middle of workup, and now you see the, now you see what actually being a seal is about is like now. That first trip. Did it meet your expectations? It did. Absolutely. And exceeded my expectations. I had no,

I didn't have a benchmark of what a normal platoon was. And actually, I didn't, I just kind of thought all. let me back up a bit. What I've done in the teams is a drop in the bucket compared to what you've done and what a lot of our brothers have done. I've got friends who've done 10 plus deployments. Take that one step further. You say what you've done in the teams is a drop in the buck compared to me,

which is not completely accurate. But even if you accept that fact, what I've done in the teams is a drop in the bucket compared to other guys that were in, in a longer time, better time, more extreme situations. So yes, it goes without saying that both of us, look, man, we, I mean, for me, I did what I could do while I was in. You did what you could do while you were in, but it doesn't go without saying. We're both saying it.

What we did in the teams was a fraction, a little minuscule compared to, first of all, the teams as a whole. And second of all, plenty of individuals who are way better, way smarter, did, did 10 times the deployments that you and I did, which is crazy to think about, but that's what happens. So, yes. In that extent, other services,

like our Marine Corps brothers and sisters, for sure. Army soldiers, Air Force. I mean, just dropping the bucket. But in that context, I didn't know what a normal platoon was.

So I kind of thought all patoons were like Charlie Patoon, attasking a bruiser. And I've come to realize later on that we were maybe a little more, in the average task unit. But I loved it. I was finally in the situation that I wanted to do that I felt a calling to when I was growing up

in my adolescent years that I felt I was born to do. And for the first time, I felt accepted. I never felt accepted growing up, not even sure I had friends. And I went to a Korean church, and I had a Korean church, and I had some Korean friends and from my parents

but in a lot of ways I was always felt in between worlds and that had an impact on me like I didn't really feel well accepted by the in a lot of ways the Korean American community because I was I remember just being teased

because I was like too white I think I think one time I had I had skateboarding shoes when I went like my Korean church and I just got made fun of it for it and I just you know so I just it's just kind of funny to think about and and I think it just laugh it off like it's just ridiculous but when you're a kid and that's your world it means a lot um so I never felt like I was accepted to a group until I was in the teams and I was for the first

time I was home and I loved it I um I you know I had to go college in the middle of my seal career and I was talking to a professor and my professor I was saying to this professor well you know I just can't I've just got to finish this course so I can get back to the teams and and the the guy was looking at me like I was completely insane like I was completely crazy because the war had started and I'm saying I just want to get this so I can get out of here so I can go back to the teams and he's looking at me like I'm literally like I'm crazy and he says like Well, like, don't you like going to school and wouldn't you rather just stay here an extra two semesters and, and, you know, just go to classes and learn?

And I was like, no. I said, I would leave right now. If the Navy would let me, I would leave right now with no degree. I don't care about this. And he's like, why? It was incomprehensible to him. And I sat there and I looked at him and I said, and it sounds really freaking horrible to say this. I guess if you put it in the view of identity politics.

But I look at him and I go, because in the teams, everyone's like me. And I don't mean it that they're like me, that they're white males. I mean they're like me. And it doesn't matter what background they come from. It doesn't matter if they're Korean or Mexican or black or white. It doesn't matter. They're like me. They're going to laugh at the same stupid jokes.

They're going to throw daggers at me that I'm going to expect to be able to deal with. I'm going to throw daggers back at them. And if things escalate, they can get out of control and they'll get, we'll go toe to toe. That's what happens in the teams. And then we'll shake hands and have a beer. And so that feeling of when you get to a platoon and you're like, oh, thank you, world. Because now you put me with these other dudes and they're like me. And we can take, we can take on.

It's us against the world. That's a damn good feeling. It's a brotherhood. It's hard to articulate that feeling that you described. But for all those things you said, yes. So let's talk a little bit more about workup. And, you know, the desert training. To me, there's no better way to start off a workup than going through that desert training.

It's hard. It was August. It was 120 degrees outside. It was brutal. We were thirsty. We were tired. And we were getting after it. There's nothing like, I think my, I clearly remember that first night.

And they were like, let's go on a little patrol. Little shakeout patrol. A little shakeout patrol. So guys are like, all right, I'll maybe bring a canteen. I'll bring a leader, maybe half this camel back. Or maybe I just won't bring anything. I'll be good. And the shakeout patrol became like an old,

night patrol of just marching through in this heat. And it's nighttime, but it's still sweltering hot. And I remember folks just running out of water very early on. I think Ryan Job, I don't even know if you brought any water and just suffering through it. But things like that stick with you, that kind of mutual suffering and hardship. I'm a firm believer that shared hardship and suffering is one of the best ways to bring people together towards a common goal, to break down barriers,

to form a brotherhood, a sisterhood, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, and that's what the teams does. And it's, as you mentioned earlier, it's not just what the teams does. Every military unit, when you go through boot camp in the Navy, okay, maybe it's a different kind of hardship, but there's a sleep deprivation, there's a weird food scenario going on,

there's tasks that have to be done, there's hammer sessions that take place, like all those things, they're unifying you, and then you go to the next step and you get unified tighter, and then you go to the next, you go to Buds, you get unified tighter, then you show up in a seal platoon and now you're going through a hard workup and you're going to get unified even tighter. It's awesome. Do you, we rolled from there, other, I mean, other aspects, of workup, was there anything that you were nervous about going through workup? Because you were, and I was going to say this earlier, you know, you said that you were a gray

man going through buds, meaning that you weren't great at anything, but you weren't horrible at anything, and that was exactly the same way I was. I wasn't great at anything. It wasn't horrible at anything. I made it through in one shot because I wasn't, I guess it wasn't as good as you, but I, because I failed a little bit of everything, but not enough of anything to get me rolled. I might have been on the sadder or weaker side of the gray man. But workup, you, you know, as the guy that was running it, the only people that kind of, that showed up on my radar a lot

were people that were having problems. And you didn't show up my radar as having problems. You pretty much could do everything. I mean, what I appreciated about the teams was that it was, a true meritocracy. You got out of it what you put in. And my original fears of being the medic, of being boxed into just that responsibility,

because I wanted to do more. I wanted to be the best asset I could be to my platoon, to my brothers. And I quickly fell under the mentorship of many other people in the platoon. Chris Kyle was the primary sniper navigator point man. and new guys kind of get matched up to a person. He was the person I got matched up to because I would eventually be groomed to take on his responsibilities. So early on, I got tasked with being like the assistant lead nav and point man and sniper,

which eventually got to take on these roles more as a primary later in workup and also on deployment. So that meant that responsibility meant so much to me and I wanted to practice and train and wake up early and make sure just because I didn't want to mess it up. Not for myself, but because I felt I owed and I did owe that responsibility of doing a good job to my platoon. Yeah, I don't know that there's any greater people talk about motivation. I don't know that there's any greater motivation than I don't want to let my guys down. And whether that's, hey, I don't want, look, I know the entire patrol is following me as the point man or as the lead nav. And if I mess this up, I'm taking the whole patrol with me. To be clear, I messed up plenty of times.

In my platoon, let me know about it. I messed up plenty of times. But still just trying at never-ending pursuit to be better and to accept. accept responsibility for your failures and promise you will do better. That's what the workup is. And, you know, we had a great workup. We went hard in that workup. And eventually, we completed the workup.

We, and we got ready to go on deployment. And you guys actually went on leave. I don't know if you remember this. We were going, we were deploying to Baghdad. That was the plan. And I had actually gone with. couple of the guys on pre-deployment site survey and checked out where we were going to be deploying to in Baghdad. We were going to be doing, you know, basic direct action missions, catching bad guys

and pretty straightforward in that in that Baghdad area. Pretty straightforward deployment was what we were heading for. And everyone went on leave. And during that leave period, I got called in and I actually don't even know if I took leave but I was at work and our boss our commanding officer called me in and said hey

you guys aren't going to go to Baghdad anymore actually he asked me like hey we're thinking about shifting things around how would you feel about going to Ramadi and I knew what was going on to Ramadi well I don't know if we all knew

but I definitely knew it was going to Ramadi I knew how bad it was I knew it was the area where the most enemy was and where the most enemy contact was and where if we were going to fight, that would be the place to go. And, you know, I talked to him and said, yeah, well, we can make those adjustments. And by the time you guys came back in off leave, we were then going to Ramadi. Yeah. That decision making was, I was not aware of that. You know, I was happy being just an E5 shooter.

And I do remember that, yeah, coming back from Lee, we're going to Armadi, place that I hadn't heard. Yeah, I was going to say, did you even know the difference were you just like, whatever, going to Iraq? I'm happy. Yeah. I mean, I was, what, 21, 22, and I want to think about, I was just a kid.

Like, what I know now, based on what I knew back then, it's just crazy. But, yeah, to me, I don't think that was, I don't think I was aware, as aware. I knew it was a bad place. I don't think, obviously, not to the same level as you of what was going on, the Cigax going on at that time. Yeah, it was, I guess I was probably paying, paying more attention to what was going on there.

And actually, Ramadi had been really bad for a while, for a pretty good chunk of time. But it wasn't like the seal task unit that was there was really getting after. It didn't look that extraordinary compared to any other task unit that was in Iraq at the time. But I knew it was going to be pretty gnarly going over there. And I also knew that if anyone would be able to do a good job there, I knew that we could do a good job there as a task unit because we had worked really hard. We were firing on all cylinders. As you said, we were an aggressive task unit for sure.

And I knew it would be a good environment for us to go into. And one of the things that we were getting ready to leave and the Commodore, who is a fantastic guy, ended up an admiral. And I had worked for him, and I had a great relationship with him. He's a fantastic guy, but he came to debrief or to brief all of SEAL Team 3 before we went on deployment. And he said something along the lines of, listen, no one in this room is going to shoot their guns on this deployment. Or he said maybe not quite that extreme. Something like chances are there's no one in this room that's going to shoot their guns on this deployment.

And do you know, this is just that things are little. little less kinetic. So we rolled over there and needless to say, within the first, I would say, 24 hours that the whole task unit was there. Our little base got attacked and the entire task unit, including some of the techs, were up on the rooftop returning fire. And a few days later, that Commodore showed up. And I, you know, I gave a hard time. I said, hey, sir, you know, you said no one was going to shoot their weapons. And I said, this entire task unit, And most of the texts have actually engaged the enemy at this time. So that was a little welcome aboard.

I remember that night. It was a good welcome. And I remember some of the texts going through like six mags. Like that first couple of minutes, I'm like, let's slow our roll down. But, yeah, it was a good. I think it became very clear the situation we found ourselves in. And I agree, I think we were as prepared as we could have been for that situation. Then what how long did it take you after being on the ground?

What was the first what was the first op you did? It was the DA. DAA the kind of one this is the one Laif and I joke about because Laif was like Laif was like we're not going to be ready we should roll it we shouldn't do it and I you know we've him and I have talked about this on the podcast I think which was I was like bro it's going to be okay you got this and he was like he was nervous man because it was his first op in Ramadi, there's mayhem going on. And, you know, I just looked at him and said,

bro, you got this, it's not going to be that hard. And he was like, Roger. And, you know, he sucked it up. And you guys went and executed the op. No big deal. You know, no factor. But it was surely thereafter that I started looking at a different strategy besides just doing DAs and moving more towards these overwatches.

And then we kind of started moving in that direction. Didn't take very long. The brigade commander, like almost out of the gate, asked for our support in areas that were being heavily IDed where we could go out and start interdicting people that were putting in IDs. What was that like for you from your perspective as a new guy? What was your...

Just tell people about your job, what that was like. Yeah, so I, early on in the deployment, I was, we had a lot of snipers. And the way the teams works, I'm sure you've said on previous podcasts, everyone has multiple jobs. We overlap responsibilities in so many ways. We have, you know, half the guys might be breaches. So anyone can put, you know, slap an explosive on the door and use the right one, the appropriate one to get through to gain access to a building. you know, half, you know, quarter the guys are snipers. So we cross, we were able to fill in each other's roles.

And early on, I was the assistant point man and navigator, and one of the snipers and, of course, the medic. And at the time, it was Chris leading a lot of those. So it's learning from him how to, as a navigator, you're responsible for coming up with a ideal but safe route to your destination. And you don't realize it at the time because you're just E4, E5 at the time

just going through. You think it's normal. But that's so much responsibility to be able to come up with a plan on your own to review the CIG-AX. Hey, you know, intersection, I think it was, 293, 2-9-3, which would have like double-digit

Sigax a day and realizing, hey, what's probably go a different way or go through this alleyway and reviewing the satellite imagery to see and understanding and trying to go through do like a dirt dive, which is just basically just planning the route in your head and seeing what kind of obstacles you might see or landmarks because GPS wasn't super reliable at the time, especially since we had jammers going on 24-7 so that people couldn't remotely detonate IEDs. We'd try and jam all frequencies. So a lot of times you didn't have GPS, so you needed to know the route cold. And then as a point man, being able to take to dismount safely and then guide your platoon

to the target on foot. And that also takes careful route planning, careful route study, and making sure, you get the right target because, I mean, you can have pretty bad consequences when you hit the right, hit the wrong target. And, of course, you're a shooter, just like everyone, everyone's a shooter from the lowest enlisted to the OEC is a shooter, is responsible for their lanes, for engaging the enemy, for a turning fire, for being a shooter. And once you're on target, if this happens to be an overwatch, we'd set up the night before

and set up sniper overwatch positions so that we had good observations of different angles, different lanes that the enemy might try and use to attack us or worse attack our brethren, our Army and Marine Corps, brothers and sisters, who might be doing a route clearance or might be doing a patrol. and that's just like one flavor of the many different types of missions that we did. You know, we talked about DA, direct action missions. Those were a little more direct. You know, you'd probably just drive up. It doesn't require as much, I guess, you're not trying to be as surreptitious.

It's kind of going in loud. You're not fooling anyone. You're going to loud, aggressive, hard. And it's just a different flavor of a mission. And those were just kind of a, an idea of the kinds of things that I did and a lot of our platoon mates did. How'd you like working with Chris? I learned a lot from Chris.

It was, you know, he was a hard teacher, but I learned a lot of important lessons from that. And I feel like I have been fortunate to have a lot of teachers and mentors role models along the way throughout life. Laif is certainly one. High school teachers, you know, medical school, at NASA at my current job,

and just trying to take a little bit of what they teach you, those pearls, incorporate into your own style, to what works for you. And certainly with Chris, I had a lot of those pearls that I learned to help me become a better operator and a better leader.

Now, as you're, doing these missions and, you know, it was, there was a lot of, a lot of violence happening. A lot of violence happening. Our Army and Marine Corps brothers were getting wounded, almost, wounded or killed almost on a daily basis. The amount of enemy attacks was basically, almost 24 hours a day, there were enemy attacks happening inside the city. There were massive IEDs that were just sickening. You could hear them.

You'd hear them on base go off. If you're out in town, you could hear them go off. And you know that when they went off, there was wounded and mutilated and maimed and killed Americans. I mean, every single time you'd hear one of those, it would make me cringe. As you continued to roll out, you know, day after day, what was your mindset? You know, I've talked to a lot of combat vets and right down to one of the guys that I had on named Dean Ladd,

who was a Marine in World War II, who was gutshot walking to the beach in Tarawa. This is after he did Iwo. I mean, just a, or Guadalcanal. And, you know, I was talking to him about it. He's like, oh, I never thought it would happen to me. that was kind of what cleared his mind. But those guys, I mean, it's a different type of combat where, look, they're going to do this assault.

And it's going to last two, three, four days before they get to kind of settle in. They had less time to think about it. Without a doubt, they had less time to think about it. They weren't coming back to a base like we were where you're relatively safe. and then you've got to reload and go back again. How did that play out inside 21-year-old Johnny Kim's mind? Yeah, and I don't think I've ever been asked that. It's a pretty insightful question.

And I don't think I've asked other people what mental calculus, what things they needed to go through to prepare themselves for these challenges. I know what I did and what worked for me. I don't know if it works for other people or if that's what other people did. But, I mean, I have no qualm saying, but when I showed up to Iraq, I was scared. I mean, it's my first deployment and on your first deployment to a war zone. I don't know if other people, but I was in the frame like, oh, as soon as I step off this bird into country, I'm going to get shot at, which is not at all the case, right?

There's varying levels of intensity in the war, right? I mean, there were some bases where you had Taco Bell and Pizza Hut, right? And then you had like the sticks where Marines were rough in it and sleeping in holes in the ground that looked like graves. And so there were, I think, varying experiences. And, you know, for me, I quickly learned my first big firefight was, I'm sure you remember this, but it was an unfortunate blue-on-green incident. And that was a big wake-up call to me. And I'm sure we could talk at length about that.

A lot of lessons learned. from it. But I quickly learned that the mental preparation I needed to do for myself was to assume I was going to die, that I was already dead, and I was there to fulfill my role in the platoon as a shooter. And that was liberating for me. It was hard to get in that frame of mind, but once you got in that frame of mind, for me, it was easier to stay in that frame of mind. Kind of like how when I was cold in buds, I wanted to stay cold. So there were guys who would take a warm shower if you had the opportunity to. But for me, I wanted to stay uncomfortable because being comfortable, being uncomfortable is an important trait.

And once I was able to reconcile. that I wasn't going to come home, that I was going to die. It freed me to be able to do my job without the human emotion that can be very disabling, which is fear. And I think it made me more clear of mind and focused, and I think it made me a better operator. But I don't know if that works for everyone. And I don't think that is also a very healthy way, healthy state of mind to stay in for long periods of time.

I think you need to learn how to decompress and learn how to switch things on and off. And have space in your brain, compartmentalized spaces where you can put very bad emotions or very disabling emotions away so that you can do your job at hand. that's what seemed to work for me. Yeah, I think that's a common attitude. I know that as 100% what my attitude was, was, okay, you know, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to keep doing it, and there's a chance I'm going to die,

and that's the way it is. And if it happens, then it happens. But I think what makes it feel liberating slash good is that any concern, like, let's face it, you can do everything right, you can plan the perfect route, you can manipulate your weapon perfectly, you can maneuver through the streets perfectly, you can still get killed. Whether you can get shot, whether you get blown up, like, it can happen. And if you're worried about things that you can't control, then you're wasting energy and you're not providing the correct support to the rest of your guys because you're freaked out about what's going to happen to you. and that's why I think that's pretty common actually is okay look here's the risk and now I'm going to put that in a box over here I'm not going to worry about it anymore because it doesn't do me or

my team any good um now this is where I think the well from a leadership perspective and then from a medic slash Corman perspective the most absolute anxiety that I had the sick twisting gut that I would have wouldn't be at all from me getting blown up or me getting shot or me getting killed or anything happened to me. It was 100% because of you guys. And it was impossible to not, it was impossible for me to not think that if you guys were rolling out or an op or Delta was rolling out or whoever was rolling out, that there wasn't a chance. look, if it's not happening tonight, it's going to happen tomorrow. If it doesn't happen tomorrow night, it'll happen in two weeks.

I know one of these nights, the call is going to come on the radio, and I know what the call is going to be. I know what the call is going to be. And there's, it was like, and again, I don't want to sound fatalistic about this, because I didn't think about it in a way. I didn't think about it like, hey, throw caution to win. This is going to happen anyways. It wasn't like that at all.

It was like reality. The reality was, you know, the reality was, I'm talking to the brigade commander every day, I'm talking to Italian commanders every day, I know what's going on out there. In some cases, I'm tracking it, you know, by the hour. And so that in my gut was the hardest, was the most, was the hardest thing that I had to deal with was just, man, just being worried about you guys. That was it. And I can only imagine for you as a medic, same thing. Like you know, hey, you can't trade bullets with bad guys every single day. You can't walk down these streets every single day and get away with it for the whole time.

It's just not very likely. The only thing is stronger than fear for self, for, us was fear of letting your platoon mate down or fear of getting your friends killed. That to me is the greatest fear of all. And I agree with you when if you accept that you may die, you may not come home. Your friends may not come home. It's not being complacent about it. It's not being, okay well it's out of my hands I'm not no you're gonna do your best you will not get complacent you will remain hard to kill you will be effective in your job but you understand the risks of the work you have ahead of you and you you accept those risks so you are free to be effective

in your job I would say that everybody, I would say that we all kind of knew that the day would come. And like you said, I mean, it wasn't fatalistic. It wasn't complacency. It was the realistic assessment of where we were at. And I think everybody knew that the day would come. And maybe if someone says they didn't, it was only because they were, you know, able to convince themselves that. to, you know, to keep a positive attitude.

And the day did come. And we'd had a couple guys get wounded. You know, Cowie was wounded bad. A lot of close calls. Innumerable, countless close calls, which in a way kind of make you feel like maybe we can pull this off. But in the end, it's, it's war. So what did that do to you?

August 2nd, 2006. It's hard to articulate in words what that day did. I talked a little bit in the beginning of how my father has shaped my actions to become the seal. Well, I'd say the events that unfolded on August 2nd, 2006, and days afterwards, where we lost. much better warriors than I, much braver and selfless, that those were much more formative in shaping what I do and will do for the rest of my life. We lost the actions of that day, we lost two really good men.

We know where to start. One of my good friends, one of our good friends, Ryan Job, was hit in the face. I learned a lot that day. I think we all did. And a piece of us stayed there that day, died with us. You know, Ryan was hit in the face. And I remember going, single cracks are usually not good. The crack, you know, when I say crack, I mean,

When you are on the giving end of a rifle, it's a much different sound than being on the receiving end of a rifle of a bullet that's supersonic. It makes a very distinctive crack. And when you hear that, and it's a single one, it generally is not good. And I remember that radio call coming out from Laef saying that Ryan had been hit and that I was needed. I remember going on the roof and seeing Ryan lying down in a pool of his blood. And there's these images in my head that just have so much human compassion in a crazy chaotic time. And I remember Leif and Chris at his side and Leif was holding his hat, holding his hand and just saying, just hang on brother we just hang on man and uh i did the best i could to stabilize ryan but

ryan's ryan's a trooper i mean he's he was the best of us um even then not concerned about his own welfare making sure that we were safe we were being stay we were being safe and staying low um and we had mark was there laying down some good covering fire to get ryan out of that position and I we called on our brothers from the army to bring us the armor we needed to get out of there and I'm very grateful for that so I accompanied Ryan out of there and there's not much you can do as a medic in that type of situation I'm not keeping Ryan I'm keeping his airway open, stopping the bleeding, and that's it. He's keeping himself alive.

And the definitive care he needed was a surgeon. He needed to get to an operating table stat. And we talked about things to learn from that day. Failures. I had one of my biggest failures from that day. And it pains me to this day because Ryan didn't see it that way. We stopped off at one of the aid stations, I think, caught Falcon along the way, which just to paint this room, it was a concrete 20 feet by 20

feet room with no electricity, no running water, definitely not a place to get definitive care. And it was being manned by an 04 Army Physicians Assistant, who I think had the best of intentions, but had other clouding human emotions that resulted in poor judgment. One being ego, which is perhaps the biggest poison of all in anything we do. And just to give you an idea of this, I mean, it was a war zone down there. I mean, just a few days prior to that, we had been mortared in that area, and a few army soldiers were hit by this mortar bad. And we were pretty close in our in Cop Falcon.

And I went over to try and help. And some of these guys were pretty hypovalemic, which is a word for saying they were low on blood volume because they were losing it. And I was trying to get IV access on one of these guys, and I had a hard time doing it. Eventually, I was able to get a jug, a stick in the neck. But this guy who was manning at the SO4 was, was, you know, just giving me a hard time about it, which it's fine.

I think we give each other a hard time. We make fun of each other. But I think, I mean, I took it hard myself because I like, man, I really wanted to help these guys. And I was failing and getting this line in, getting an IV line in. And that was naive and just, I think, insecure. here, I was professionally embarrassed that I could not get this line in. And so I was a little intimidated by this guy.

So I had that painting of this situation with this relationship with this person. And coming in, I knew that coming into this aid station at Cop Falcon was only going to hurt Ryan. And I was yelling at the Army guys. I mean, E2 drivers, we're just doing what they were told. I'm like, we need to go to Camp Ramadi right now. to get to an OR. And they were telling me, we need to stop off this aid.

We have orders to stop off of this aid station. And Ryan's on this cot. And I mean, there's no way to give definitive care. You can't even be sterile in this area. I mean, it's just a concrete room with no electricity. And he was trying to give a NASOFAR, an NPA, NASOFERN Airway to Ryan, which is a little, remember the trumpet nose, he put in the,

keeps an airway, secure, but you never, ever give an MPA to folks listening to this who have any kind of medical background. You would never give an MPA to someone with suspected facial, with suspected maxillary fractures, which is what Ryan certainly had, had to be shot through the left cheek, right, around the left orbit. And I was top of my lungs arguing with this guy, this guy, this is not. not what he needed, like you should not do that.

We needed to get to Camp Armadi. And there was a certain power differential, right? I mean, I was E5, 21, 22 year old kid and I had this 04 who was telling me how things should be done. And Ryan's there hearing all of this. And I, like a lot of army regulations, I'm not trying to give. any disrespect to the army, but the two drivers who drove me there were like, you need to clear and safe your weapon. And, you know, if you remember, there's always a barrel outside of every building, you're the clear and safe it. And I understand because there's a lot of accidental discharges that happen in the military, but for team guys, I think that's, like clearing your, like having to point your weapon in a barrel to clear and safe it is not really, you don't need to do that.

We just clear and safe in the safe direction, right? Just be responsible, have account. ability for muscle awareness and what you're doing. And I was trying to fight this fight with this, with this PA. And the other army soldiers were trying to, like, you need to clear, you need to go outside right now and clear this weapon. So frustrated. I left, cleared my weapon.

I came back, and PA hit insert into the NPA and Ryan. And Ryan was coughing up blood and bad. And I saw the look on this PA's face that. that he I think he recognized that this was outside his scope of abilities and that he was

in over his head and may have hurt Ryan and from there my request to get to Camp Romani was immediately fulfilled and we got back in the load of Ryan in and got Ryan to Camp Romani to the appropriate level of care to awaiting surgeons and doctors

to take care Ryan. But to me, that's one of my biggest failures because I let Ryan down. And what pains me is that in the years afterwards, he always thanked me that I stood up for him. And Ryan, I don't know why you're thinking me. I failed you. I could have done something more. I could have I could have stood up for my friend a little bit more. I could have, I don't know what I could have done, but I could have done something that Ryan deserved better. And who knows what this did?

I mean, Ryan was blind, as you know afterwards, but he says I was the last person he saw. He wishes I was a little prettier. Ryan likely became blind secondary to infection, swelling, trauma. But maybe that was the final straw that made him blind and eventually led to him getting all those surgeries, which eventually took his life. As you know, he had multiple surgeries and one of his surgeries he was unfortunately taken from us.

I don't know. But I made a promise after that. that regardless of my rank of where I stood or of what kind of power differential I was if I saw something wrong like that and I knew someone would get hurt that I would stand up and speak and not let something like that ever happen again. We see things happen all the time that we know aren't right. You know a lot of you sometimes you just know deep down that that's not right and you choose your battles. I think it's important to choose what battles you stand up more, but there are some battles that you should never, ever stand down from. And I swore I would never make that mistake

again. And then find it very relevant today. I mean, we accept the risks of our occupation for the greater good of what it does for society, our country, our species, and it's relevant in space exploration in NASA, what I've been honored and privileged to take it part of. And we accept the risks of what we are trying to do for the general good and what it brings back to humanity. But I think having that experience to know it's worth cashing in that currency,

that reputation you've built up to speak up when something is messed up. It's one of the, I feel like, we could talk about that day for the rest of the, I think we could talk about August 2nd for the rest of the day, but all the other things, and that's just the first chapter of what happened that day. As you know, we lost Mark Lee on that day. Those, a lot of what I do today, I made a promise to, not just those two, not just to Mark and Ryan, but I could list a long list of names of people we've lost since then, that we, that the void created by those warriors that would certainly have done good for this world, that I owe it, that we owe it to them to be a positive mark in

this world. And that can take many forms. For me, that was why I wanted to be a physician. It didn't really matter that it was medicine and it was just natural for me. me because that's what I was involved in to take that level of service to a higher calling. But trying to become an astronaut is completely consistent with my promise to leave a positive impact in this world. And that's how I honor the brothers we lost.

And I will never stop until the day I die. trying to fill in that void because it's a boy that can never be filled in. I was walking out of the Tactical Operation Center on our little base on that day. And I remember I walked out and I looked over to my right. It walked out the door and I looked over to my right. And I saw you.

And we're on your knees. You were fairly covered in blood, and you were washing the blood, washing the blood out of Ryan's helmet. And I realized that this was going to take a very personal toll on everybody. And I didn't know what to say. There was no training. no one had been killed in Iraq before for seals we never talked about we never talked about

we talked about hey if a guy gets wounded if a guy gets killed here's what we're going to do in the next six minutes here's how we're going to get a guy extracted here's the casualty evacuation here's the protocol that we're going to go through here's the medical procedures we're going to do to try and save his life these are all the things we're going to do in the 15 minutes from when someone gets hurt and I had been in the sea teams for 16 years at that point, 15 years, and not one time ever in any training scenario did we ever talk about, okay, now what do we do? Now there's a little protocol around, hey, here's the casualty officer that's going to go,

here's the protocol that we follow for notification of the family, all that stuff, all the mechanics of it existed and we we did what we were supposed to we followed that protocol but the protocol for how do I look at a 21 year old kid that's cleaning the blood out of one of his friends helmets there's no protocol for that and what I mean what I had to do was because I was still the guy in charge and I had to try and figure out what to do there was no one to ask No one to ask. There's no, there's no person to say, hey, what do I do now? And, you know, what, what I defaulted to, which I actually told you guys in the clear,

three days later, two days later, when I finally could assemble a sentence, was go back to work, was that this is what we came to do. We still have a mission. We still have soldiers and Marines that are out there. risking their lives that we absolutely provide safety and security for. We can deliver those guys home to their families. And that's what we need to do. And that's, you know, that's what we did.

Sometimes words, there are no right words for situations like that. But I think just being there with the people you love at your side is the most important thing to be doing. to go back out and work and do the job you came there to do, that you signed up to do. And it's not for, I don't mean to be disrespectful with these words, but it's not for country or service, it's for the person sitting next to you,

for standing next to you, for your brother and your sister. You do it because you love that person. Because at least to me and in my experience, the folks who joined B. Seals who did it because they wanted to serve their country, that was the greatest reason they were there. There wasn't a bigger intrinsic reason, like doing it for the person next to you, for the brotherhood, for yourself. They didn't seem to make it through, and I'm not sure if I would die for my country, but I would and I will die from my brother and sister without a doubt. And that's just a taste of war.

We lost two people that day. There are platoons, companies who have lost half most of their unit. You see the numbers from World War II or from Vietnam. It's astounding. And I am not trying to belittle the sacrifices our service members have done in this war. I'm just trying to put it in context that we had a whole generation of people. We asked them to continue fighting despite the heavy losses and casualties. They suffered on a daily basis that trumped any number we had in the

post 9-11 wars and they did it so being there with your brothers and sisters and continuing that fight that is the best remedy for a situation like that obviously the other you know I mean it's real obvious I guess when you look back but again this is something that a lot of times we weren't prepared for in the modern seal teams you know when I when I was raised in the SEAL teams in the 90s, we were preparing for one mission. If we were lucky, we'd do one mission. And that mindset kind of got into our heads

where you just didn't think about how you would continue on. And yet, I mean, we stood down for like two days. And then it was like, okay, get your gear back on. And it's time to go. even in that same day after Ryan was hit we said get your stuff on get your gear back on reload get back out there and I mean it it it pains me to this a day that I wasn't there for that assault because I was with Ryan and I'm glad that I was by Ryan side but I meant I I wasn't there for Mark when he was shot and killed.

The next time I saw him was in the morgue, giving a final kiss to his forehead. I didn't mean to interrupt. Well, yeah, you're exactly right. And so Ryan wounded and, I mean, severely wounded. And then, yeah, you're right, it wasn't even a day. It was a matter of an hour, maybe, before late. called me up and said hey this is what's going on and then yeah once mark was gone then it was a couple days and then okay and again the the the the strange thing or I guess the

thing to contemplate a little bit deeper is you know if you're going on to Guadal canal like you're going to fight and you're not going to have time to think about what just happened. Whereas, hey, the way it was for us, it was like, okay, well, now you're going to stand down for two days. You're going to think about everything. You're going to package up your bro's gear and send it home. That's what's going to happen. You're going to be thinking about that. And then you're going to get in the same vehicles. You're going to roll out. And that's what, as you said, that's what you do for your brothers. That's what you do.

You keep doing your job. I was thinking about that too when you were talking about shooting. And you were talking about, look, you know what you do? You know how you get through that part of the course? You follow the procedures. You do your job. You check your body position. Frontside focus.

How do you complete the stocks? You figure out with the dead spaces. You follow the protocol. That's what you do. That's what you do. That's how you move forward. You do what you're supposed to do. And, of course, it wasn't over either.

Because then, you know, in September, we lost Mikey as well. So close to being home, going home, and a million different excuses that you could make to not go out and do your job. It was a heavy, I mean, obviously, coming home from that deployment was, I mean, first of all, there was no, you know, they do the, they do the, they do the, um, Decompression stops now where you stop somewhere and you hang out for a few days and you kind of decompress. We didn't do that. We got on a plane and we flew home and woke up and we were back in San Diego. Yeah, you're right. We didn't have time to decompress.

We didn't have the long boat ride over the Atlantic to decompress with your buddies. around cards or around a drink and just talk. Because that's what you do, right? After an op, you just hang out with your bros. And just, you don't know you're decompressing, but that's what you're doing. That's what you're doing. And to be thrust back into civilization, normal, modern civilization, that is a hard transition.

And it is surreal and it can mess people up. When did you come home? Do you remember? Yeah. So I came home in October. Most folks came home early October or late September. I came home because I was reenlisting. And if you remember the rules to reenlist, you need to be for tax break purposes.

You need to be in country on the first day of the month. So I stayed an extra two or three weeks more. after the rest of my platoon and gone home. Yeah, that's funny. I remember, I remember wanting to, like, just get, especially when all your brothers are already home, just wanting to get home. I think Tony was still there with me.

Yeah, Tony was still there. We were roughing together. And I think we still got another opera two out of it with, I think Team 5 had, had was coming to relieve us. Yeah. Were you on the last plane home with us? I was, I think,

on one of the last planes home. Because I remember, well, I remember meeting Marcus because he was in the battoon, we're leaving us. And, yeah, I think I was in one of the last planes home. And then at this point, it was weird when we got home

because, like, the guys back on the strand had been, like, reading our after-actions reports, known what we were doing. They'd gone to our guys' funerals. visited our wounded guys in the hospital and I remember when we got home this was the decompression plan they had new guys swim pairs of new guys so if for instance when we went to the bar they had a they had a new guy to drive you home and a new guy to drive your car home that was the decompression plan I

remember thinking myself, well, okay, at least somebody thought of something. And that's what, that's what it was. It was, all right, you know, we'll take care of you guys. We know you got some steam to blow off. And that's what we did. I don't know if that was a good plan. It doesn't really seem back there. I think the spirit of trying to do was right. The spirit was good. The spirit was good. Execution was maybe a little. Yeah, just maybe there's something we could have used more than a new guy to drive you. I remember I was getting in a car. And I mean, we're look there's when you when when when I'll just speak from my own person when when I came home from that deployment like you you weren't holding a lot back you know it was

like no you're dumb no don't do that hey we're not doing that it was like we were I was definitely at that point of just calling things how they were and that was like you like you had to readapt to say, okay, you know what, I can't just do that all the time. Absolutely. I feel like we can talk a long time about reacclimating back to society and how to do that effectively. And I think personally that that transition is so difficult that it is also the reason why a lot of people have trouble readjusting back to society.

because you put that switch on for so long, you just don't know exactly how to turn it back off. And I remember very clearly when I came back, it was very raw. Everything was raw. And I was a lot more direct. And I think the hate and anger in my heart had just swelled up. and I it it took me years to readjust reacclimate get a better understanding of what I had been through and what I was feeling to be a productive member of society because you can't talk that way you you may be able to get away talking like that to a platoon of seals for the rest of your career

but you're going to be very, you're in for a surprise, for a shock, when you go back to the real world and you realize that people don't respond in that fashion when you talk to them. Because, I mean, that's just not how most of society, most of humans interact. They don't interact on that type of level of intensity and rawness. That was huge, huge learning for me. I'm very thankful that I had the years that going to college are working in a different line of work to really understand that a different human side, a different meaning of what I meant to be a human. I was, I remember I had conversations with Laif and Sef because Laif and Seth, the two platoon commanders, you know, we were getting asked questions. We were getting the people that were saying, well, should you guys?

been going on the day or should you guys have been working with commitment like we were getting all those questions and I had a legitimate sit down with both those guys and I was like listen we cannot be emotional about this we cannot respond it came after we went to a meeting where it was an officer detailer meeting and we were you know sort of plotting out what the what an officer career should look like blah blah blah and somehow this so the three of us are in there with a bunch of other officers like all lieutenants all you know lieutenants maybe some oh fours in there and one of the other guys that I knew who's a good guy and he he didn't mean anything by it but but he said something along the lines of you know when we were saying well it'd be good to do this job or that job or

whatever and the conversation was going and he said something along the lines of well not everyone's going to be as lucky as you guys were because I think you know he was just trying to say it'd be good for guys to be able to get another shit and he goes not Not everyone's going to be as lucky as you guys were. And I get what he was saying. But, like, I had to, you know, just detach a little bit because, let's face it. I mean, this was within weeks of coming home. And you're thinking the last thing in the world you think you are,

is lucky that you just buried your freaking guys. And, and I, but, you know, we all maintained. But, you know, after that, I talked to Laif and Seth, who, as, As you know, Laif and Seth are not exactly the most, you know, they're not real great at hiding their emotions, right? They're both freaking passionate emotional guys. And I was like, guys, we cannot, if we talk about this deployment from emotional perspective all the time, we're not going to be able to communicate properly what we learned.

And so we have to take a step back. Don't get emotional. Don't get in arguments about this stuff. stayed attached and communicate what happened. Human psychology is everything. Learning how to be in control of your emotions, your body language. How you craft your words is probably the most important thing

you can do as a leader and as a follower. And it took me many years to learn this. and I'm just kind of smiling as you're talking about this. I did not learn, as a 22-year-old kid coming back from deployment, I did not learn how to detach myself, how to be emotionless. Because while human emotion is what makes us human and is some of the best aspects of what make us human, it is also the biggest hindrance to getting stuff done to completing the mission.

and ego is a part of it, narcissism is a part of it. Those are human emotions, but they're walls. And when you bring emotion to the table, you are mounting defenses that make it hard to get to the core of your argument, of what your vision is. And I've got countless stories where I failed in that endeavor, but have learned through experience and through just watching other people,

observing, making mistakes, being in the SEAL teams, of learning to fine tune that emotional and social intelligence, to know the human psychology of the person you're talking to, of how to disarm their defenses if they are emotional or disagree with you. Because people have common, I firmly believe that all people want good things. We just disagree on how to get from point A to point B, and that's where we mount our defenses and lose sight of the big picture. But if you can take a step back, remove your ego and emotion from the picture, and find common ground, that's where you can influence and share your vision to complete your objective.

And that's applicable in everything we do. what's applicable in combat, it's applicable in business and medicine. And what I do as a astronaut at NASA is trying to share that vision, trying to get that buy-in. And it all starts with understanding the human condition. And I've got a funny story that I always remember. And I'm embarrassed about it. And I wish, if I ever meet this person again,

I would like to say, I would like to apologize. There are a lot of people I would like to apologize, and this is one of them. I was home. This is at post-deployment, and I was playing one of the many Call of Duty video games. And this is my brother's girlfriend, and she saw me playing this video game, and I'm just getting into it. And she says, I don't understand war. It's such a waste of life. And there was something inside of me that just I'm embarrassed to say, but I snapped.

and I was stern. I wasn't like, I wasn't unprofessional and cussing her out, but I was like that, like you don't know what you're talking about, how dare you say, like, I think having a pretty, not a responsible way of responding back to that. It was born out of emotion because I was hurt because I took that as an attack against friends

that I had just recently lost. and this young woman who had no maliciousness behind her comment and was absolutely surprised with my reaction and was apologetic. But I could have been more effective just slowing down, removing, actually using the intrinsic emotion I was having as a tell. because if you can be a little more control and understanding of your own emotions, it can tell you, it can give you hints as to what is going on and how to properly respond and craft your words to get your message across. I could have, with my body language, with my tone, I could have

said something different to let her know how I understand the spirit of her coming. comment, but how that comes across to veterans and how she can be better informed in the future to be more careful with her words and not have snapped back at her. And to this day, I told my brother, and he's like, no, it's not a big deal at all. She's like, she never, you know, she probably wouldn't even remember it, but I still to this day feel bad. And that's just one of many examples where I let human emotion, my own human emotion, get in the way. And I can, for me, my childhood was a phase of learning. The teams were a phase of learning, but post-teams, there was a lot of learning how to be a human that made me suitable to be a candidate

for our space exploration program. There's no way I would be in the situation to have the honor and privilege I do now if it wasn't for all of those experiences. you get home from that deployment and this again it's the same the same idea is guess what you're going to do now you're going to go in another platoon you're going to get do another workup you're going to go on deployment again was there you just that's just how and you were just going to execute that yeah I think it's a bit different the second time you go around you know I I think I already said it earlier but there's a special name for for seals like me.

I only did two tours, two deployments, which for people who don't know in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing compared to the experience of a lot of seals, a lot of soldiers, Marines, who have done multiple tours. But the first one, we had a great, we had a lot of heavy, sustained combat experience. And being able to do, to take those experiences forward, this time not as a new guy,

having new seals and our platoon and being able to mentor them was a privilege and an honor. So it was, I remember feeling drastically different the second time through and still, of course, learning every single day, but also knowing that you serve as a role model and everything you do and say and act to, believe it or not, younger people because I thought that was pretty young. even more junior and younger seals. And the second platoon, the workup, going through that again, and deploying again. And while the second time around it was a little different, there was a stint under Seth, where we had some pretty sustained combat experience. Yeah, well, the funny thing was when Seth was considering what he was going to going to do next.

And, you know, he was going to go to school, maybe get out, all these different options that he had in his head. And, you know, I talked to him and I was like, hey, man, first of all, if you don't take over this task unit, someone else is. And the only person that should take it over should be someone with experience, someone that will take care of these guys that deserve to have someone to take care of them. and he's listening to me and finally he just stands up and starts walking out. I'm like, where are you going?

He was like, I'm going to talk to the X-L. And I was like, what are you going to tell him? I said, I'm going to tell him that I'm taking over this task in it. And I was like, Roger that. But one of the other things, now as you guys were going through workup, and you know, there's all kinds of this is the, there's all the political things going on. There's all the little backstabbing and all this crap, you know, just normal kind of. of political crap that goes on,

and you don't want it to go on to the teams, but it does. And so that stuff's going on. And Seth's, you know, Seth's, he was real prone to getting frustrated by that stuff. You know, he did freak out about something. And so finally, you know, one day he saw, oh, this is, oh, I can't believe they're doing it,

and whatever. And I said, bro, just calm down, go on deployment, nothing's going on, go over there, work out for six months, you know, get strong. and then come home and then chill out. You know, go to shore duty, whatever. So he's like, fine. You know, and so he goes on deployment,

just like you all did with the attitude of like, okay, cool, well, you know, nothing's going on. We're going to go to a place with a good gym. We'll train some Iraqi soldiers, and we will, you know, get big. And then, sure enough, as fate would have it, you guys roll in. And pretty quickly after you guys roll in,

the, and I don't know if you know this side of the story, but some of the conventional commanders that were there when task unit bruiser was there, found out that some of the guys from task unit brusier were back in country and put out a very specific request for forces that spelled out exactly who they wanted. And that's why you guys ended up getting the call for supporting the efforts inside. of Sauter City, which was a freaking disaster at the time. Yeah, I was not aware of that. It was, you know, we found ourselves in a,

in a situation where we had the opportunity, the privilege to have an impact on operations and support our brothers and sisters in the Army. And I remember also Mike Sorrelli being there and I went to Buds with Mike. And it was an honor to serve under his leadership. I admired Mike long ago from Buds being an 18-year-old kid. And obviously, you know Mike.

He was a former roper, former Marine Force Recon, staff sergeant. So, you know, in Buds, we were enamored. his experience, but also his ability to talk respectfully and speak the language to the other officers and the instructors, but also speak to the level of the lowest enlisted. And that's a skill that's hard to learn, and definitely I was unaware at the time, but also making observations and taking unconscious notes to incorporate in a number. my own quest to learn how to share my vision and how to be a follower and how to be a leader

later on in my life. What do you remember about that first op into Sauter City was good times, huh? Yeah. I would make a disclaimer. So I served as one of the point men and navigator. and I have to confess that I did not have a good. I did not perform well, especially on that first off. And it was, you know, I take accountability for that.

And it's not that I ever had a talk with Seth or anything, but I've never actually had this conversation with anyone. But that first off, I felt like I failed in a lot of ways. This is the first time I'm actually publicly talking about it. It was a new area. We had made this force combined from operators from different platoons and different teams. We had never worked together. And in theory, you should be, that shouldn't be a problem, right?

Because we have the same standard operating procedures. Everyone knows how to do an IAD, how to peel left, peel, right, center, peel, you know, respond, move and cover and move. Everyone knows the basics. but that did throw a little bit of a wrench, just working with operators that you hadn't yet worked with. And I know for me that it was another, I should have known better, especially having been through 06 in Ramadi, that the mental preparation required.

And I think I'd talk to you, but for me, that preparation was getting in the mindset that I would not come home. And for that first stop in Sauter City, I was not there yet. And I was the navigator and led us in. Actually, that was, we were inserted by the army, some local armor in the area. And we were trying to get to our target site and we got compromised. There were lookouts there.

and I missed my opportunity to engage those lookouts. And we eventually got, we got attacked from the rooftops. There were RPGs. They were sustained automatic fire. And we had to call in for, you know, QRF for help to get out of that area. So it was a welcome back into the fray of things. And I If I talked to other people, I don't know

I don't think they would probably Call me on and say you did a bad job on that But I think personally I feel I've carried that With me And just promising like Like looking getting locked on and getting back on track So that's specifically the first off Yeah the reason I

Specifically asked you about the first off Is because after the first stop Which I know was a was not a good operation because Seth called me and was like horrified at the way the whole thing went down. He, of course, said he totally screwed it up and he needed to reset. And Mike Sorrelli says the same exact thing. You know, he made mistakes and he, they didn't do the right.

So it's like everybody, everybody that I know personally was all like they felt awful about that first operation and it was only by the grace of God that it wasn't like a mass casualty scenario. I mean, it's funny. I have never had this conversation with Mike or Seth, anyone else. It's kind of funny you saying these things.

Like we all are saying the same things and trying to take accountability for how that went. It was eye-opening it. I mean, they brought it. The enemy brought it. And we were in for a rude awakening. But in a lot of ways, it helped us for the future ops because we had good, successful ops that made an impact later on.

It's just that first one was luck. I don't know. You're right. There were RPGs that were really close. And by the grace of God, we had, Army brothers there to support us, really. So I can't give enough props to guys to our brothers like that. Yeah, it's one of those, you know,

and I'm sure Mike and I will go into a bigger debrief at some point on this from his perspective. I wish Seth, I wish it would have hit record, you know, whenever he called me years ago on a secure line. to kind of debrief me but what I think is awesome and definitely get this from Mike and which is like you guys could have walked out of that um walked off that operation you know completed that mission and gone into freaking hiding like just been like this is not going to work this is we're we're not ready for this all those things um but i think it's a great example of okay stand down for 72

hours we got to do some rehearsals we got to do some drills we got to get our shit together yep and then we'll do this properly and so often people take a hit you know they they make a mistake and their attitude is oh no I'm not capable doing this see I'm wrong I'm I'm a disaster instead of instead of assessing it going okay here's the mistake that got made here's the mistakes that got made here's the things we need to change here's the rehearsals we need to do here's the planning we need to put into place you do an assessment and like you just said You learn from your mistakes and you make adjustments. I mean, it's the same thing with the blue on blue.

We had arriving in Ramadi. It's like, okay, look, we got away with that one relatively light. Relatively light. I mean, we, hey, an Iraqi soldier was killed. That was awful. A couple Iraqi soldiers were wounded. We had one guy get fragged in the face. But compared to what could have happened, we got off light.

And same thing. We didn't say, well, there's two things we didn't do. We didn't say, well, that wasn't our fault. And that, you know, it was like, no, this is my fault. And here's what we're going to do to fix it. And that's the same attitude that you guys had that first operation at Sauter City, which was, okay, we made mistakes. They're our fault.

We're going to fix them. And we're going to go back and get after it. Direct parallels with that blue and blue incident we had compared to the first off we had in Sauter's And I remember, you know, it was a four-man element with some Iraqis, you know, I don't want to say names, but I was with that forward recon element and just the Swiss cheese model, Murphy's Law. It went bad, quick. And like you said, someone got shot in the face and Iraqi died and someone was fragged. And I played a role in that.

that was the first firefight I caught in and it was one of the worst ones and now that I have had a little bit more experience I can understand that when you're receiving sustained 50-calf fire and multiple automatic weapons fire you're probably not fighting the enemy you think you're fighting and that was because we were fighting Marines and a whole company of Iraqis who are pinning us down

And it's amazing that we didn't lose anyone on that. And I, by the grace, I threw a couple frags immediately. That was one of my first reactions. And thankfully, I did not cook those frags. For those who don't know, cooking a frag means you pull, you pull the ring. And there's a little bit of, what's it, is that what we call time fuse? It's a delayed fuse. delayed fuse time.

It's going to give you five seconds. Allegedly. Yeah. And you hold it, release, and cook it, you know, count one, one thousand, two, one thousand. The idea is that when you throw it, there's not enough time for the person you're throwing yet to pick it up and throw it back at you, right? Thankfully, I did not cook those grenades. And I talked to some of the Marine Anglico that was on the ground there, and they said,

my frang just rolled by him. And thankfully, he had enough time to get out of the way. And that's me. That's on me. And I remember distinctly after that event, you came in, we were in the platoon hut, and he asked us, like, you were going around, like, whose fault is this? And, like, I think Jeremy raised his hands, like, it's my fault. And I like, no, it's not your fault.

And, like, various people are like, no, it's my fault. And you're like, no, it's my fault. And you went on to talk about why, and you assumed responsibility. And I didn't know it at the time being just a young kid watching all this, taking it all in, but it had a formative impact on me of assuming command and responsibility when you are the leader. Because the buck stops with you and just taking unconscious notes about that interaction. But that had a huge, I had a huge, formative, that was a very formative experience for me. It parallels exactly what we were just talking about with that first op in Sauter City. I would love to talk to Mike about it one day the next time I see him.

Yeah, we'll get you guys both in here. We'll do a full debrief. So those operations in Sauter City, though, man, after that. So just a couple things. Sotter City had been a total disaster for years. So that was 2008. It had been a disaster since 2003. the enemy was in control of that area the entire time.

The army finally said they're going to do something about it. The army started building a wall. The enemy ferociously attacked. It was devastating. And you guys rolled in there after the first off. Obviously things went bad. And then you guys got in your rhythm. You figured out, you corrected your mistakes.

and you guys started executing these missions in support of the army and started killing a lot of bad guys. And I want to say it was about six weeks, after about six weeks, the enemy surrendered. For all practical purposes, the people that were leading the insurgents inside that area said, okay, yeah, we're done. We're done.

So a problem that had been a problem for five years, was over in about six weeks. And again, I'm breezing through that because you guys did some harrowing missions in there and took a lot of risk to go in there and make that happen. But it was, my point is that it was risky, yes, but very effective in subduing a previously

just savage enemy that did not care. I don't know if too many things in this life that are good things that are without risk. And that goes to every facet of life, of business, of combat, of space exploration, all good things have a lot of risk and a lot of hard work to get there. And certainly, combat operations there were no different. Now, at what point did you start thinking about, you know, going to become a doctor? That was in Romani.

So when you did your initial application, it was between deployments. Is that right? Yes. So the story that I mentioned earlier of me being like, I don't know why you'd want to be a doctor. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Being a team guy is the best thing in the world. Why would you trade in an M60 for a scalpel? So we actually had that conversation in between.

We did. I remember it very well. Johnny, I don't know why you want to do this, but I will support you. And you had my back. I would never want to do this. But good on you for the one in the do us, and I'll support you in every way. And that letter you read at the start of this, brought back some memories. Very powerful words and like undeserving, kind words.

Yeah, I had not heard that in many years. When did you find out you got picked up? before deployment? That was during, I think during deployment. So I decided I was going to go into State 21 that, for those who don't know, that's the enlisted to officer commissioning program so that I could go to medical school. And I knew I wanted to do it after coming out of Ramadi. But I thought it was poor form and really, I couldn't bear to leave my platoon after, especially have the one one deployment? I mean, what kind of, what is that?

I already feel bad enough that I've only done two deployments. And I am aware that I am a representative of the SEAL teams in what I do now, which unfortunately, I say, I say unfortunately because I don't appreciate the, the spotlight. I was of what I have to do as an astronaut, but I am a representative of the teams. And to me, that's kind of crazy. I do not deserve to be a representative of the teams. I'm a too pump jump. You want me to be representative of the teams?

And I do it with honor and seriousness, and I will never do anything to disgrace the teams. I hold and covet that honor more than anything. and I will defend it at all costs. But I just talking, just being here, it's just like, people will see it and see me as a representative and it's a little, it's humbling in many ways and it's, I take it seriously. So I wanted to at least get two deployments in because I feel like that's like the least respectable amount of work you should do as a team guys, at least two deployments. So yeah, the decision was made.

I'll put in this packet. I'll time this package in so that I'm getting a decision yes or no as I'm coming off of this deployment. And that's what happened. I found out. Maybe just before we left or maybe during deployment that I was accepted into the program. And so you come home from that deployment. You guys had a little bit of time to decompress during that deployment because the solder

city fighting was in the beginning of the deployment relatively close. You guys got done. and then it was you know kind of what I said earlier was hey back to some outstations relatively mellow compared to either A, Ramadi or B

Sauter City I mean not to dismiss what the work we did and the work that other people did but the combat operations intensity was night and day difference I mean we were working at an outpost in Rupa and doing a lot of long range

reconnaissance missions on side by sides which are basically high-powered tactical go-carts going hundreds of miles and just traversing the desert in these getting paid to do it. Right. But it was definitely different because I fired my rifle almost every single operation in Ramadi. I can probably count on one hand the times I didn't. Like when there was a mission where I didn't fire. Same with in Slaughter City.

I don't think there was a single operation we did where I didn't fire my rifle. But in Rupa afterwards, I don't think I fired it once, except on the range to make sure to set it. So it's just different contrast. People have different experiences based on where they are. Yeah, and there's different missions. There's different things that people have to do. And I say this, you know, I'll have guys come up to me and say, you know, I was in the, I was in the Marine Corps from, you know,

19994 to 1998, and I never did anything, and I feel guilty. And I'm like, hey, you did what the country needed you to do. You did what America needed you to do.

Absolutely. And so you get assigned different missions in any unit, and you do what you're assigned to do and you do it to the best of your ability. And, you know, in this case, it's a little bit of a nice little decompression

riding around the desert in ATVs with relatively low threat, you know, and then you come home from that deployment. and now it's time to go to college. How old are you at this point? Let's see.

So this is 2008. So doing public math here. So. Didn't mean to put you on the spot there. Rocket scientist. I was 24. So you're 24 years old. Yeah.

I went to college. And you went to the University of San Diego. I did. I went to the University of San Diego. I was a 28-year-old, no, I was a 30-year-old, completely military institutionalized, grown man with no, like, ability to fit in with civilians when I showed up to college. And so it was awesome. And what did you major in? Math.

And did you know at this point you want to kick-ass, get great grades, and get into a really good medical school? Yes. That was the plan to, so the program I was accepted to do, the Seaman Animal Program, was specifically to go to medicine. So, and the Navy does, they take a huge gamble because they're accepting you for this program, putting a lot of money in you, and you're not even accepted to college or to college or medical school. So they're hoping that you will do well enough in college to be accepted to medical school. And if it was the same as you, you only have three years to do an undergraduate degree. So you get squash a four-year. degree in three years and for me I also had to get the prerequisites to go to medical school so that

was you know full-time status working summer school working winter um doing winter classes did you have to go to ROTC I did and I also gave up parking tickets to pay for tuition you're one of those guys how did you not the world finally loses respect for Johnny Kim in some way you know what I um it was a humbling job on it I think it was good for my soul. So ROTC can be hard for former enlisted because you might be a battle-hardened veteran. No one care. People care of it.

You have to suck in, take that humble pill, and realize that you are just another midshipman with the other 18-19-year-old kids. And for some people, it's hard to do that, right? Because you have to suck in your pride, take that humble pill. and just follow and do these things that are, I don't want to say dumb, but kind of. Well, they're aimed at young, inexperienced, untrained officer candidates that have no, that have no experience in the military. That's who they're aimed at.

Yes. They're not aimed at guys that have been in teams on two combat deployments, responsible for all kinds of stuff. They're not aimed at you. And so when they hit you, they sting. If you let them. But in that respect, it is an opportunity to exercise humility and to be able to suck in your pride because that goes, that is in the same spirit of when someone says or does something to you

that gets you emotional and you having the mental fortitude to step back, put your own emotions aside to get, to communicate to the person to find common ground. In the same way, that's how I saw. all that opportunity to suck in my, to get that, practice that humility. And I didn't, I wasn't always good at it, you know, because sometimes you're fed up, like, mustering at 0,500 when the muster is really at like 0,700. You're like, why am I here for two hours? Because, you know, maybe the squad later put 15 minutes of grace time before, like, the company

commander, before the fake, you know, like, Rotsie leader or whatever. And then eventually works out there, you're like two hours before, you're there standing there two hours of detention before you need to be there. You know, like little things like that. And for some, especially I saw some former enlisted having a really hard time keeping their thoughts to themselves. Team guys are even worse. Yes.

So it is an exercise in humility. And giving parking tickets was the same way because the stay 21 was very generous, but it It only gives $10,000 of tuition, but it gives you time. I'm not trying to dismiss the benefits of the programs. I'm very grateful for that. But I had to make up an extra $20,000, and the University of San Diego was kind enough to offer me a job. Hey, you give out parking tickets for eight hours a week, and we will cover the rest.

So I give up parking tickets. And some may see that, like, oh, wow, you went from doing these combat operations to given parking tickets, like, well, for me, it was an exercise in humility and just there's, you should never think you're too good to do a job. And I think you should be like that in everything you do. Be a forever new guy is what I try to emulate. And I don't mean as in you shouldn't step up to the role and be a leader and delegate

appropriately, but never think that you are above taking out the trash or that you're above not respecting the secretary or the lowest junior enlisted. Right? I mean, that's, I was there. You were there. We were both E-1s. You're at the bottom of the bottom by the food chain, mopping floors, taking out the trash. And I remember what Tony, Tony Afridis said to me when I first showed up. He's like, never think you're too good to take out the trash. And I take that to heart. Like, to this day, never it's too good to do those jobs. Because the moment you start to think you're better than anyone else, you have, you have poisoned yourself. You were on the dark path. So giving out parking tickets was, I'm thankful I got to give out parking tickets to really nice cars. At universities Indiana.

Were you married yet? I got married during. While I was in college. And I had my first child. My wife and I had our first child during University of Diego. then when do you start applying for med school so I applied between second and third year of the University of San Diego in the summertime did you think you'd where did you apply everywhere I applied yeah every I think applied to like 10 to 15 schools I applied to some really nice schools

and you know I told you earlier that all my father wanted me to do was go to Harvard medical school and that's not the reason. At least I tell myself that's not the reason why I did it. Maybe some psychologist listening to this is like, oh, that's totally why you went there. But for, and for me, it was, I had to, it was very impactful having friends, Ryan, Mike, Mark, J.T.

I could go on of the people who have sacrificed and were much braver than I could ever be. And that does a couple things to you. It humbles you for life. I think if you remember that, right? Knowing that no matter what you do in this lifetime, it will never be enough. And not that it's a comparison, but that pursuit is important. But it made me want to fill in that void to make up for the good they would have done.

And that's how a lot of us honor our friends. It's certainly how I honor my friends. And for me, that's being as impactful as possible to this world. It doesn't matter what that is. It could be in the form of serving as a team guy or serving as a physician or what my path has taken me to now serving as an astronaut. I wanted to be impathful. And to me, going to Harvard was giving me a bigger platform to be impactful. It wasn't the name.

It wasn't the brand. It wasn't the education. You'd be fooling yourself to think that going to Harvard is going to make you a better doctor. That's not true at all. You would be just as good of a doctor anywhere you go to in this country. But it was having a platform to be able to affect positive change. That's why I wanted to go to an institution like John Hopkins or Harvard, really. And for me, that transition.

The years of University of San Diego and the early years of medical school were the hardest. It's weird to say, but some of the hardest years of my life. life because it was different. I couldn't grind through it by just hitting harder. Wait, this is going from University of San Diego to Harvard? Or just going from the teams. Just going from, okay. That transition. It was some of the hardest years in my life because it's not like you could just push through like you can in some of the things you do in Buds or in the teams. And Buds is a challenge, but as you and I know, training is nothing compared to war. And you think training is hard? You think Hell Week is hard? It's hard, right? Until you get hit in the face in a real combat operation.

And then you realize, oh, I've reset my benchmark for what is hard or what is painful or what is suffering. And even having that benchmark going into transitioning to civilian life, it was hard for me. I was trying to fit in four-year degree in three years, trying to do really well because I knew I had to get good grades to be considered for a school like Harvard. I had my first child. I was working part-time, but probably the worst of it was I was not right in the head with my decompression with post-war. I took a lot of that anger and hatred in my heart, and I still had it there, and I lost a little bit of who I was. and it took years for me to regain that.

And it was only through the grace of time, of sometimes prayer, of friends, of mentors, of making mistakes that I was able to find that light and get a little bit back of who I was and learn through the process. What did it look like when it, how did that anger and hatred manifest itself when you're at the University of San Diego on a sunny day and you're, you know, in the library and you've got to turn it a paper.

So I, I've never even, I haven't really talked about this, but for me, I felt I had a huge obligation to work as hard as I could to do the things I wanted to do because I owed it to Mark and Mikey and Ryan. It didn't manifest itself in the libraries of University of San Diego. It manifested itself in my relationships with the people I loved. And not that I became my father and was abusive or verbally abusive to the people, but I took my anger out in less than healthy ways. I am sad and embarrassed to admit, but I'd get, the littlest things would tick me off,

and I would find myself punching a wall. or breaking something. And I think about that now, and I understand the frame of mind I was in and the kind of hurt I was in post-war, and I just didn't have the healthiest way to deal with that. And now that years have gone by, and I've talking to our own platoon mates

who have gone through their own battles, the demons post-war, I realized I wasn't the only one. But a lot of it, I had to deal with on my own or through the patience of my wife who has been my biggest supporter through all of this. It took years for me to learn to be human again, to let go of that anger, to sublimate all those experiences, all that, those raw emotions into good.

And when I think about some of my behavior, the universe, not that I was, completely out of line or anything. I mean, I was a good student. I did well. If you talk to people who I was in class with, I mean, I was not controversial in any ways, but when I had strong opinions, I was respectful and I voiced them.

And one of the biggest, it's hard for me to say it, I still to this day have a hard time saying it just because it's just a word that's not, it's very foreign to someone who was a seal. But learning to lower my defenses and be vulnerable was the light, one of the biggest lights for me learning to be more of a human. And that happened in medical school.

It was, I remember this, I had an experience in medical school where we do these talks about our experiences in the hospital. And we were talking about something called the hidden curriculum, I can't even tell you what that is now, but it was, we were talking, I mean, I was, to say it was a touchy-feely kind of conversation was, I mean, that's basically kind of what it was, and I hated these talks. I hated talking about it, about my feelings to my classmates. And I think a lot of it was just pride, because I was like, I've been through so much more than dealing with the expectations of our supervisors in this medical school and this

hidden curriculum and the difficulties of dealing with sick and dying patients. Like, I've been through worse. Like, I don't want to talk about my feelings. And it made for a very rough person to be around. And I don't think I wore my emotions on my face and I just didn't participate in those discussions. And I had two caring physicians, professors at the time, pull me into their office and be like, look, it's very visible that you don't enjoy these conversations. And you pull out your computer and you're hard to talk to and you detach yourself. And like, what's going on? Like, this is a serious problem.

And I took that to heart and I examined, reexamined where I was coming from. And I realized that I just, I didn't want to be vulnerable. I didn't want to talk about my feelings this way because there was a lot of other things, a lot of other baggage I had, I had still. But having that conversation and that guidance to open up really helped me become a better human in many ways, which then led to being a better follower, being a better leader. So those are one of many experiences in that phase of life that helps. helped me be a better candidate for NASA and for other opportunities that have come.

I'm trying to overlay my own experiences, you know, kind of parallel to years and just thinking about things. And I, again, I always say I got very, very lucky. One of the things that I got incredibly lucky with was when we got home from Romani, two things happened. Number one, I had a wife and three kids, all at the optimum age, as far as I can tell, the optimum age to connect with in the, they're young enough that they're looking at you like you're a superhero. They're old enough that they're not babies. and I can see in their eyes like their people. I guess that's the big point. Like they were old enough.

They were in that age group, you know, three, four, five, six years old where they're looking at me. I'm looking at a little person, right? So I have that going on. And plus my wife, of course. So I'm coming home to that. And then at the same time, I take over the training and where I'm around team guys. Not only am I around team guys, but,

All these little emotions that you have, well, you went through workup when I was running training with Seth. Like, I was allowed to express my emotions about the teams and doing a good job and cover move and you better, hey, leader, you better step up and take charge and hey, you better get out. Like, not only was I allowed to do that, it was beneficial for the guys that were going through the training because they got to see that I really cared about this

and I didn't want anything to happen to them. and like that so I got to like let those emotions out enough and then at the same time in my home life I was like oh I was looking at a little human being and going wait a second I can't this isn't this isn't a place to be emotional or be angry this kid's looking at me like I'm a superhero and like I should be calm and that's what I'm going to be so kind of a cool very lucky situation that On the one hand, I got to express and be around team guys and be raw as raw could be with team guys. And at the same time, learn that, oh, by the way, you know, it's not normal. It always freaked out Laif and Seth that I would go home and I never would swear in front of my kids.

And like, obviously, in front of a seal platoon, I would just go off. And I'd come home and just be, I don't want to say I'd be a different person, but it kind of be a different person. You know, I'd kind of learned to, all right, this is okay over here. It's not okay over there. You look at a five-year-old girl or a, you know, a four-year-old boy. And you go, you know what? This kid's counting on me to make some halfway decent decisions. And I think that made me very quickly figure out what I needed to do to move forward.

and whereas for you, I'm sitting there drawing that parallel course, you're getting taken from that team guy environment to this non-teen guy environment to the nth degree. And boom, here you go. You've got to box all that stuff up and figure out what to do with it real quick. And there's no real good outlet. And the outlet becomes, you know, the wall,

the freaking plate, the whatever, that anger needs an outlet. outlet and when you let it out it's not in the best place and it takes you a little while to figure out, okay, I see what's going on here. Yeah. What you described took me years to learn. And it is probably one of the most important traits of being a leader is having one the emotional and social intelligence of knowing your audience, knowing who you're you're talking to and being dynamic enough that you can switch and craft your language, your body language, your tone of voice, everything you do to suit the person you're talking to.

You can, the way I would talk to a platoon to seals would be very different than the way I would talk to a 60-year-old COPD patient. And COPD is like a lung disease. from common folks who smoke, who is in the hospital for the nth time, who wants to quit smoking and is frustrated and need some guidance. That patient is a different population and being able to have the clarity and intelligence to know that and to switch your language appropriately is so important to yield results. And that goes for everything. I mean, that's why blanket leadership tenants don't work, guiding principles work,

but you need to form it to your own style to achieve the results. And I think a lot of it starts with awareness, with mindfulness of your own emotions, of the emotions, the body language that others are telling you because it gives you hints as to what they're feeling and if you know what they're feeling you understand where they're coming from that perspective you can disarm people by finding common ground and achieving results because most of the time all people want good things they just disagree on how to achieve that yeah this um you're gonna i'm gonna give you a copy of this new book i wrote and you're gonna be like Oh, cool.

I'm glad we talked about everything that's in that book today. So much of this stuff is exactly what I talk about. One of the things I talk about in there is, you know, modulating, you know, how you have to modulate your leadership principles and how, you know, you can't use the same tool with one person, the same way you use that same tool with a different person, the same way you use it with someone else. You have to understand who you're dealing with

and figure out how much of that specific tool to apply. you can even use that tool because different people respond differently to different things. Absolutely. And you know what? I wish, I'm going to admit I have not read any of your books, but I've learned from watching you, from watching late, from watching other leaders, you know, Scott, who is my next OSC, and mentors along the road and making mistakes, all these tried and true lessons. I've been fortunate to make those mistakes and learn from them. And, you know, I wish I had a book like that to teach me, but maybe it wouldn't have been effective. Maybe it requires a little bit of suffering through those mistakes to really hit home. There's certain things that

you can learn from a book. There's certain things you can't. One thing that's nice is you, for people that give me feedback on these books, give lay feedback on these books is if they have a little bit of context, man, you look at them and you go, every single person that reads one of these books goes, I wish I would have this book. And you know what? I respond with, I wish I had it too. I wish I didn't have to learn these lessons the hard way. But sometimes, sometimes that's the way you're going to learn them. But sometimes, I mean, it's not like anything we've talked about today is super novel that people haven't heard. You need, there's a right time and a right place to hear the lessons and advice. And sometimes, I'm certain. I'm certain.

A lot of the lessons I follow and guiding principles I live by every day. Serving with humility, remembering the sacrifices of others, respecting everyone, not taking things for granted. Those were said to me as a kid, I just wasn't in the right frame of mind to receive those lessons. So I firmly believe that people need to be ready to be mentored and to be taught. Well, that's the that's what humility is all about, right? And one of the things that I talk about is the one person that you can't turn into a good leader is the one that's not humble because they're not listening to what you say.

And they're not accepting any guidance. And so you're not going to be able to get them to move in the right direction. They're just going to continue to suck as a leader. So you get into Harvard. And, you know, I know, I read. that letter that I know Laf wrote you letters. I mean, we all did everything we could to support you getting in. You got into Harvard, but then the Navy wasn't going to let you go. What happened? That's right. I haven't thought about this in a long time. Because this is why you owe me a six-pack.

More than that. So when the instruction for the Seamint Animal Program I was in was written, it didn't take into context the various programs that would be there to support medical school. And I can throw out a bunch of fancy language, but basically there were three avenues to go to medical school through the military. There was EUSIS, the uniform services of health sciences. Yes. Yes. The military medical school.

There was two routes to go to a civilian medical school, and one was basically a scholarship where they'd pay for school. And another one was they'd keep you active duty as an enlisted person, but you would have to pay your own tuition. Me, having already been in the Navy for 10 years, wanted to stay in the Navy for many reasons. One, I had already had a scholarship to Harvard, as well as generous financial aid that paid 100% of my tuition.

So I didn't need the scholarship to pay for school. what I did need was the tri-care benefits and the salary to support my growing family. Into the Navy, it's essentially the same cost, right? So my program, the Seaman Animal Program, did not take into consideration the program where you stay enlisted. And it wasn't because it wasn't a good route. It just wasn't considered because the time that the instruction was written, that enlisted program wasn't written. And I wanted to apply to that enlisted program, but was being told by my, you know, my superiors at the ROTS unit that I couldn't do it because of the instruction. And that's, I'm a, I am not, I do not, I am not a believer in circumventing the chain of command.

and in this case I let my, he was a lieutenant like proctor, let him know, like, I'd like to see if I can pursue this avenue in a parallel path and try and get approval for this. And the response I got was, well, good luck. And that's when I reached out to you and told you the situation and you asked you a situation and you asked a civic officer who I still actually keep in touch with because I remember he did not know who I was

but the very fact that we were both from the same brotherhood from teams that he went out of his way and he was working I think in Bupers or some personnel command that had access to the people that can make these types of decisions and he was able to secure

or at least share this story what I was going through to the right people. And once those right people heard the situation, it was like, oh, that's easy, of course. It just wasn't considered because it's a clerical thing, not because it's not, like, shouldn't be allowed. So once the right people heard the story, they're like, yeah, absolutely will support you.

And it wouldn't have been made possible if it wasn't for the support of the teams. Yeah, that was awesome. And my role was just knowing who to call. And, you know, I had, you know, no power. But the people that you know and the relationships that you build over time is like, hey, guys, here's what's going on. And the guys that are in powerful positions or in the right position, in the right spot with the right pull can make things happen. And they do it for the right reasons.

Just like you said, it wasn't because it wasn't the right thing. It was absolutely the right thing to do. It's like, hey, we got an opportunity for a guy to go to Harvard Medical School and be able to support his family while he's doing that. who could possibly think that's not a freaking awesome idea. And that's all it needed. It just needed a little light shed on it. I'll always be indebted and grateful for the actions of those to go out on a limb and support me. And I think like you said, it goes to show when you are in a position to be able to help someone

and it's for the right reasons and it's done responsibly, you should do that. It's the right human thing to do is to help us. others on their path. Now, when you said going from U.S., going from the teams to USDA and then from U.S. to medical school, you said that was a hard transition too, going to medical school. Was that, am I catching that right? Did I hear that right? It was not as hard of a transition as the teams to just civilian life in general.

Right. I would say that that, and that was like the transitions to the teams to non-teams. Because you said it yourself, but I joined the Navy at 18 years. years old. I was completely indoctrinated into the military. And you like to think, there's bubbles everywhere, right? We all, everyone lives in a bubble to a certain extent. And in the military, we like to pride ourselves in a plethora of wide ranging experiences. But if you think, you know, we like to compare ourselves to maybe civilians or people who are not, don't have those opportunities to get those types of overseas experiences. But if you think for a second,

that you may not be in a bubble yourself just because you're in the military, you're wrong. I was in that bubble. And I quickly discovered that I was indoctrinated. Yes, I went to a very liberal arts college and I may not have agreed with everything that was discussed,

but you know what? Learning to respectfully voice my opinion and listen to others, voice their opinions is so important to being a person. productive member of society. So I am so thankful that I was able to step outside of my bubble into the civilian world and see how operations are done on that side. And I, it just helped me be a more rounded person, a more rounded human being. And I'm so thankful. It's just that it was very painful

because I was not ready for that transition. And I don't, I think a lot of veterans are not ready as well. And I think that's why a lot of times it's hard for veterans to transition from the military into civilian life. How hard was Harvard Medical School for you? It was hard. It was what does a day look like? Either a day or a week. Like what does that look like going to Harvard Medical School? I mean, for me, it was juggling the demand of a growing family.

You know, my head, my first child, my second child was born during medical school. my third child was born during an internship. So you didn't get much sleep. And you just learn to optimize your day. Like you can't make more hours in a day. And this is when I learned that becoming a morning person was a better way to optimize my day. So, and I am not a genius by any means. I consider myself very average physically, mentally.

It's just that I feel that I can stick with the goals and have deferred gratification to help support me for my goals. That's it. Working hard is all I know I can do to make up for any advantages natural or otherwise that I don't have. So I do feel that I had to study more than the average student at Harvard Medical School. And there were some smart folks there. And on top of having personal responsibilities to being a father and a husband, those were challenging. So I learned that, hey, I need to wake up super early, study in my most optimum time, workout. And that's, it was just learning these changes to optimize my life. How early would you wake up?

In medical school, I was waking up around 3.30. And then what, you maintained your workouts all the time? No. At what point, at what, was that kind of one of the early things to go? Did you hang on to it as long as you could? It lost, I lost it my first year and I, I, like, you know, in your 20s, you can eat junk food, you can get away with all these things. You can work off any bad diet you have. As you get to your later 20s and your 30s, like, you can't do that.

You have to eat well. And I was getting, I was overweight in the first year of med school. And there came a point, like, I can't do this to myself. Like, this maintaining my health is for my sanity. for my health and I owe it like I don't care if I'm super busy I should be able to find a half hour an hour in so I would say towards my second and third I mean it's just that first year I lost sight of that and then after that um bought a treadmill bought weights um in my little basement so I had no reason not to work out so then I was waking up super early getting my workout out in first

thing in the morning and then just trying to crush as much studying as I could in the morning hours because I knew once I came home from school, there's no work getting done for hours because my son and my wife, I mean, I need to be there for them. And a lot of times it wasn't. I was not the best husband and father during those years. And that's because you got an exam in two days

or you got a paper due and that just that's, you just don't, you can't do it. Yeah, I was not, I don't think, able to do that very well. I tried, but I, I think I could have done better. At what point did you decide maybe going into space would be a good idea? So we talk about accidents and we call whatever we want. I have no plan.

I had no plan to do any of these things. We talked about I had no plan to be a doctor. It's just something that came out of deployment of Ramadi, of seeing the compassion and the good that physicians and nurses were doing to our brothers and sisters who were wounded to combat. I wanted to be able to do that type of good as well. And that's why I got directed to medicine. Space was never on the horizon.

We talked a little bit about where I came from. That scared little boy, they grew up under my father's shadow, I never thought I could have been a seal or a doctor or an astronaut. There's no way. It was a different life and I was a different person. And the first time I heard about NASA and this operation, I don't have a great story for it. It's just I heard about being astronaut. It's like, oh, that's kind of interesting. One wonder, like, other than space exploration, like, what you do

and learning about the impact that astronauts can have on our next generation and what Apollo did for our country. I mean, in the 60s, we were able to land a human on the moon with that technology, despite a growing race with Russia and all of the politics going on during that era, Kennedy's assassination, we were able to complete that. And that secured American preeminence in science and technology for decades to come. I certainly believe that. And the benefits we got from that are you can't count that. And learning a little bit more about that and how astronauts have had the opportunity to represent humanity for good and bring together countries in a way that politics and alliances cannot do.

When you talk to some of the Apollo astronauts who landed on the moon and they did their international travel, the comment, the feedback they would get from people would be, we did it. We did it together. It wasn't you Americans did it. It was we did it. And that was powerful that countries could come together and see that as a human accomplishment. So there's something about space that takes away those borders. Because when you're up there, you don't see these distinct borders between countries. You just see a lot of blue and a lot of land.

And you see how fragile the planet is. So once I learned a little bit about that type of impact and that you can have a huge impact on the next generation of explorers, of scientists, of people who want to be a better version of themselves, maybe I could reach out to those kids just like me who are scared, tired, who don't think they can amount to anything, who don't think they're worth anything,

if I could reach out to them and let them know that, hey, it doesn't matter where you're from with the right attitude, with the right hard work. If you get up every time you fail, you can amount to something and you can do positive work. You can leave a good impact, a positive mark for our world. That meant a lot to me. And that's when I put my name in the hat and wanted to be an astronaut

because it was completely consistent with my goals that I promised Mikey, Mark, Ryan, long list of our brothers who are not here with us today that I would, for the rest of my life, do something to impact positive good in our world.

Is it, was there a recruiter that comes around? I mean, where did you, do you pick up a brochure? in class? Where did you, you must have had the idea, you must have been watching,

you know, a movie or something and gone, wow, where'd it come from? You know, so I was, I, through just random circumstances, got and met a astronaut,

former astronaut named Scott Peridsinski, who is also a physician and served with the shuttle, during the shuttle era and had a lot of great missions and a huge impact and listened to him talk passionately about our space program.

That kind of gave me the idea. And then just like in the teams, I just researched what it meant to be, what the requirements were, and realized I actually, like my math degree was consistent with that, getting a medical degree, having operational experience,

working in close teams, making hard decisions with limited data under constrained times. Those were all consistent with the traits and experiences. that NASA was looking for. So through an accident or whatever you want to call it, I was able to have this privilege and honor to serve our astronaut corps.

What's that screening process? How many interviews did you go through before they gave you the upcheck? So there are, I can't go into great detail of this just because of the, the sensitivity around applications and actually right now coincidentally NASA is looking for the next class of astronauts. I know. I saw that on your Instagram. Oh, until the end of March, which.

Johnny Kim's out recruiting for NASA. So they keep it a little bit, they keep it a little bit, I don't want to say secret, but they keep it somewhat a little bit of a mystery. I don't say they, there's just some finer details about the process that are not generally public knowledge. I mean, I think you could probably find it on Google. There are, I went through a couple interviews. There's a process where you're screened based on your paper application. And they reach out to references, letters of recommendation, and then they invite you for an interview. And you're there for three, four days, going through an interview, doing these tests, medical

tests, and also, like, team-based tests, where you're working with people that you haven't worked before and seeing how you solve a problem and they're observing how you react. All right. Listen, bro, I know this stuff might be sensitive and everything, but you got to give me at least one cool thing that they, I want to know that they put you in like an escape room. I want to know that you had to like, they were, they were shooting paintball at you while you were doing math problems. Come on.

Give me something. You know. Indulge my fantasy a little bit. Nothing like that. The, it was fun. really, really fun. You do things that you have never done before. There were some obstacles.

Like, you'd be like, hey, you get a piece of paper, and you're with your group, and you're, like, hey, you need to get to from point A to point B, but you can't touch the grass in between you and point A and point B. And you might have, like, a barrel or a piece of wood or some string or something. You need to devise a way to utilize the resources you have and work effectively in a team to like accomplish your mission. And that's like just one example of some of the team-based things. And that's publicly out there.

Now what I like about that, what's interesting? So I talk about this in my latest book. Sometimes people feel like when they're trying to show leadership, what they need to do is like step up and tell everyone what to do. And it's interesting to me because I know what you're like. And I know that I know that you wouldn't necessarily. be the guy who goes all right everyone listen up this is how we're gonna get the barrel you know you'd be like okay let's let's figure hey anyone got a good idea

what do you think of this what do you think of that and I just think it's a good I think you're like living proof because sometimes I get pushed back of we don't if you don't step up no one's gonna notice you or if you don't start barking orders no one's gonna listen to you and I have to tell people over and over again that's not true I mean how many times did you hear me yell at Leif or Seth or anyone in task unit bruiser. I don't remember single time. And that's not something I would,

you praise in public, but criticize in public is not, I cannot think of a situation where that is a good idea to humiliate or belittle a subordinate. That is not in gender trust. That is a very immature thing to do. And that's what we talk about, like letting your emotion take control,

your ego, take control of your actions. It's not something I've ever seen. And people look at me and they judge a book by the cover. And they think, oh, Jocko, man, can you imagine? He must have just been crazy and yell. It's like, no, no, it doesn't work. And that's what I like about, like, even just this little tidbit you're giving us is to convince people to say, listen, if you want to be in charge, that doesn't mean you bark

orders. Actually, someone that's good will start off by listening to what I'm. that people have to say, taking other opinions. Let's formulate a good plan together. And those things are so important. And it's your proof. And I'm only imagining that when you were given a task,

there was a couple people in the group that were like, all right, guys, listen to me. And I bet the judges, for lack of a better word, wrote down, oh, okay. Bill over here, he really likes to bark orders and tell everyone what to do. And that's not going to go over well, being part of a team.

Absolutely. I mean, being good leader is being a good follower first. And we talked about having that emotional, human, social intelligence of what to do and when to do it and how you do it. And that's so important how you craft that language and that tone of voice. I mean, I think there is no template to leadership and people need to find their own way of executing that. For me, I listen. I sit back and I'm a big believer in quality over quantity of what you say. In my experience, the less you say, but the more thoughtful it is, the more people listen. The more you speak, and oftentimes when you speak a lot, it's less thoughtful, the less people listen.

Yeah. And I try and exercise that in everything I do, especially at NASA. And learning to, it's very applicable in a seal platoon, learning to gain currency. When I mean my currency, you can call it reputation, whatever you want. Leadership capital. Capital. Gaining this capital, this currency by, at least what I've seen to be effective for others and myself is shutting up and doing a good job and not complaining.

But speaking up when it is appropriate, respectfully and thoughtfully, you gain that currency so that hopefully one day when you do need to bark orders because of time sensitivity or just the situation calls for it, you can cash in that currency. You've gained enough and that the people around you, your teammates will be like, Roger that, I'm going to follow because you have gained my trust. So there's a time for everything and at least for me I found that barking orders to especially the people you don't know is probably very poor form. It doesn't work very well and yeah the the quote of having that book over and over again is

the less you talk the more people listen. I in my experience I found that to be true. So okay so you get selected all right and you do all kinds of cool tests that we can't even talk about them Echo Charles No no you know that soundproof room that they put you Like an army get in

You watch that movie? I have Is that the one where they blow up the meteor That's right? Yeah yeah yeah they drill Yeah so remember they put them in that Soundproof room and they give them a bunch of questions And they're like hey don't go crazy or whatever

I don't remember this part but keep going I was wondering if you did that Not that I remember there were some long I mean a lot of interviews and a lot of tests and I mean you've run it on and I really can't get into the details but taking like these personality

and these psychology tests yeah yeah I think that's what they're trying to depict their own yeah see if they could like keep it together up there or whatever right yeah but it's not like I think you can learn a lot about someone I think you learn the most about someone when you squeeze them right

because in an 8 to 5 office job, you can put on a mask and be whoever you want to be for that period of time. You can fool a lot of people. But when people are squeezed, when you strip away that comfort and they're tired and hungry and cold and suffering, that armor just gets melted away. And you start to see true core characteristics. And that's why we do hell weak and buds, right? You want to strip away all that armor and see what is left of that person. If that is someone you want by your side, when you are in your darkest days because you're getting, you're in the heat of battle and you're getting fired upon. You want that person that you know is not going to quit.

Now, I'm not saying the cheapest and easiest way to find candidates is throw a ruck on them and say, march in this direction and I won't tell you and stop when I tell you. I think you would get certainly a type of profile of person to not quit and to pursue on even not knowing when they'll ever stop. But that, we need to be a little bit more thoughtful of who we're trying to represent our species, our country for space exploration. You don't want, otherwise, we just have a, like a platoon, like a corps of soldiers and operators. but that's, we want people who have that dynamic leadership, who understand human emotion, who can speak to a classroom of fifth graders, third graders, kindergartners, and share that passion of reading or space exploration and why it's important to study the sciences, but at the, or at the same time, talk to a group of engineers and explain to them, hey, respectfully why you need a window

in your vehicle because to land appropriately or explaining to management why you need to do these certain training activities even though they're really expensive or there may be risked involved. We need to maintain our currency in jets because it's an operational environment where we have to make real-time decisions that have real risks so that we can stay sharp and learn to exercise that operational decision making during stressful times. So you need someone who can fill all these roles in and push when going gets tough. And the core tries to use various tests to make sure we're selecting for the right people that can do all those things. So once you get selected, and then it's time to start the training.

And give me, give us like an overview of the training. the pipeline start off with what's like the hardest parts and then where does it where does it feel like you kind of level off and you're feeling good about it you know every day is different it's um i explain it like being in grad school with just a more physical component to it i mean there's certain checks in the boxes you need to do like you need to get to a certain proficiency in speaking russian and learning to fly the jet if you're a pilot flying front seat i'm not a formal military pilot so I had to learn how to be a to be an appropriate crew member an effective crew member we are serving with a pilot and learning to fly the jet appropriately and work together to complete

that mission. You're learning engineering about the suit, the space suit you're in or the international space station learning all the different components, the heating, the cooling, the electrical components, how it recycles water, how it recycles urine, then learning how to operate in the space suit. We have this huge pool that has a one-to-one scale of the space station in Houston and learning, because we don't have in a way to emulate zero gravity on Earth, obviously, but we have buoyancy, and we can make neutral buoyancy to emulate what it's like to be in a zero or microgravity environment and how it feels to work in a pressurized suit to move along and replace batteries and work drills on the space station. And you learn geology. We go on trips to learn about

various aspects of rock formations, how they form, why they form, what's important? Because this is all relevant. If we go to Mars, we go to the moon, we may not be able to bring the subject matter experts. We don't need to be the subject matter experts, but we need to know and understand. We need to have a foundation so that we can go out, make effective use of the time we have to get the rocks that subject matter experts at home do think is useful so that we can learn more about the moon, about the Mars, and bring that knowledge back to Earth to benefit humanity. So every day is different. Does everybody on the team, well, do you get assigned to like a platoon or a team or are you assigned to a certain group of people

that you're going to go on a mission together? Eventually you do in your career. When you first show up your what's called an ask-can, astronaut candidate. Okay. So you go through and you almost do everything together. Did you graduate already from ASCAN school? I did, yes.

And that was the big graduation that took place in January. January? Yes. So once that, when you're going through, that school, is that the initial, like, okay, you're learning Russian, okay, now you're learning about the space suit, okay, now you're working in a weightless environment.

Yep, you're learning, it's kind of like SQT. You're learning the basics of what it's like to be an effective astronaut. But that training never goes away. Like just like being a seal, you don't stop shooting just because you made it through SQT. It's just the beginning of your learning, of your professional development,

and you're maintaining all of that. So you continue all of those activities, maintain speaking your Russian, practicing in the space suit, flying in a jet, weekly, and then supporting ongoing missions. So if you're not assigned, which I am not assigned, there's a pool of astronauts that are always supporting ongoing missions because that's a priority is supporting ongoing missions. And right now we have astronauts that have manned the International Space Station for 20 years continuously.

There are people, adults, where we have been orbiting a man presence in the space station long as the people have been alive. And we are looking to go back to the moon in 2024 with our eyes set for deeper exploration to Mars and beyond. But it starts off with getting back to the moon

and setting and deploying a sustained presence. So our jobs right now, if you're not assigned, support those ongoing missions in various capacities. And later down the road, if you are assigned, then you are, depending on the mission, you are working more closely with the other people assigned to that mission. And that might be like a pro, that might be like a workup. Like you find out you're assigned to a mission maybe a year or two years before and you're working closely with that crew instead of a platoon, it's a crew.

and then you go on a mission. And now typically missions are kind of like deployments. They're about six, seven months. Sometimes they're longer, sometimes they're shorter. An example of a mission would be going to the space station? Yes. Right now, that is the only mission that we have is supporting our space station. Until 2023 and then they're going to assign someone that's going to go to the moon, our team, crew.

Absolutely. We're under a program that we have called Artemis, we will send the first woman, and the next man back to the moon and have our sights set with boots on the ground on the moon by 2024. And that hasn't been a sign yet. And you said sustained presence on the moon? Sustained.

While getting to the moon by 2024 at this current time is not, we are not planning on having sustained presence in 2024. By 2028, we are planning on having a sustained presence on the moon. So having a lunar outposts. and learning what it's like to live on a planetary... Cop moon.

Learning what it's like, having challenges and struggles, because the space station is 250 miles away. It's a four-hour trip. If something bad happens on the space station, it's reassuring knowing that there is a vehicle, a Soyuz vehicle, which is a Russian vehicle, waiting there to take our crew members back to Earth if needed. the moon is longer it's four-ish days to get back

Mars that's even longer we're talking about months so it's prudent that we learn as much as we can about what it's like to live on a different planetary body like the moon before we try and get to Mars and that's what having a sustained presence on the moon is all about the um when when do you think you'll get assigned to a crew? Is it even knowable? No. And it doesn't really even matter because you're just going to keep doing your job. Exactly. It's irrelevant. I still have and

hope that I will continue to have this attitude where I'm just happy to be where I am. I have an immense opportunity that so many deserving people don't have to work at NASA, to be in the the astronaut core that if I never flew, it would still be an honor to serve. And who knows, something medical can come up, an injury can come up where I may be ineligible for spaceflight. It's not time wasted. That's not, I would still feel very privileged and it'd be a huge honor to support ongoing missions. So to me, I have, I don't know when I'll be assigned and I don't care. I will be happy with whatever I had the honor of doing and I will fulfill any role to the best of my ability. Future is bright. Well, listen, Johnny, we've actually been going at it for

a little over four hours right now. Wow. I know. We went through your whole life, which is not bad in four hours. I know people are going to want to contact you, talk to you, you know, get in touch with you, I know that you're on social media now, big time. Unfortunately. I say my words carefully, but, yeah. Well, it's pretty awesome that in this day and age, you know, people can connect with you. And, you know, I was very reluctant to start the social media thing. It was actually, well, quite frankly, mostly generally.

Leif's wife who was like, hey, idiot, you need to get on social media so you can connect with people. And sure enough, I can't even begin to tell you the amount of incredible conversations, feedback, suggestions, information, questions that have, that has come through social media. So even though I know you're probably not super comfortable with it, I bet you'll find that, man, it's a great way to communicate with other people to. to share things with other people, to share daily life, to explain things to people, to help people out.

I mean, I think you're going to end up using it for a positive tool, which it, look, it can be negative all day long, and you can sit on there and you can find people that just want to, want to just belittle other people and make fun of things and tear the world down. It's actually not that hard to avoid those people. And it's really easy to find people that are looking to learn, share, grow, help. The social media is filled with that stuff as well. Well said, I have, I had zero internet presence and I have intentionally not have had any social media accounts before NASA. And even for the first year and a half at being in NASA, just because I have such a visceral feeling with social media.

Not because I'm not trying to blame the platform because I think we all as humans should take accountability for our actions and how we use our tools. But narcissism is perhaps one of the biggest poisons in our society. And narcissism breeds narcissism. And a lot of times the way I've seen social media used as a platform to promote that. And when children see that self-promotion, that self- idolization, and then want to be YouTube stars. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. I think people should pursue their dreams.

But I think it requires some self-reflection and thoughtfulness as a society of what we value. And when you have narcissism as a valued trait, you are by definition putting, yourself above others. And I think that is not sustainable for a growing and evolving society. And that's why I find service very sustainable. Because by definition, you are putting others before yourself. One of my greatest, one of my favorite quotes is from Dr. Martin Luther King. And it's something along the lines of, everyone is capable of greatness. not fame, but greatness, because greatness is determined by service. And I think sometimes people think the definition of success is that everyone in the world

knows their name. And I think they're missing the point when that is the goal they're trying to seek. And I sometimes see social media used in that. But I agree with you that when used responsibly, respectfully, tactfully, thoughtfully, it can be a platform for good. And what made me change my mind about actually having a social media and I'm not very active, I try to make a post a week. A buddy of mine from the team said, you know, look, you have an opportunity that most people in this world

will never have. And people just want to share in some of what you do and learn about it. And if you are using it responsibly, not for self-promotion, but to promote others and to share some of the cool science and inspire kids, adults, then you owe it to do that. And that was sent to me still about a year before I opened up a platform, but it always stuck with me. and I guess that's why I have been more okay with having that because I feel that it can be a force for good when used responsibly. Well, with the longest social media preamble ever, Johnny Kim is at Johnny Kim USA. Eck, are you got any questions? Yeah. So how do I become an astronaut? Hypothetically, of course. I mean, you mentioned the application process. Like what? Can you just roll into NASA and be like, hey, I want to work here? Give me an application or what?

Thank you for asking you, Charles. I'm happy to share that. If you Google NASA astronaut applications, you will find a plethora of links that describe our requirements in great detail. And just off the top of my head, you need a college degree, an undergraduate. graduate degree in a STEM field, as well as a master's degree in a STEM field. That's a science, technology, engineering, mathematics. Medicine does count. Biosciences counts. Some degrees, like a nursing degree or maybe like a physical education degree don't count. You can find more details online and you need a couple years of work experience. And then you meet most of the requirements there. You can find out on NASA.gov. And applications are open right now. Also, I noticed your shirt.

Is that like a special, you know, I mean, can I get a shirt like that? Oh, yeah. Kind of exclusive. No, not at all. The NASA, the most recognized NASA, we call it the Meatball logo. It's owned by NASA, but we license it out for free for anyone. So you can just go on Google, shop at your favorite store and find a NASA shirt. Well, if they license it out for free, there may be Jocko podcast NASA shirts coming at you.

Johnny Kim addition. Yeah, Johnny Kim, a dish. Big time. Right on. Thanks, Johnny Kim. Johnny. I know we've been going at it for a while, but just any other closing thoughts from you? I'd just like to say thank you to everyone that's had the grace and the patience to tolerate my mistakes along my path and care enough to want me to be a better human being to thank my mom.

for being my first hero and teaching me what it means to be strong. And most importantly, I don't think words can ever give the recognition or explain, articulate the appreciation I have. But a big thank you to my wife and my kids for supporting me, for being selfless so that I could pursue my dreams and for loving me. Awesome, man. Awesome. I know this was kind of a long time coming from the beginning. You had to wait until you graduated from astronaut school,

which people thought I was kidding when I said, he's got to graduate from astronaut school. Some people took it as me saying, I'm not going to have some guy that's not even graduated for astronaut school in the podcast. He needs to graduate first. And I had to go back and explain, no, I'm just saying, you know, he's under the protocols of NASA. And I think it worked out just so that I can speak more intelligently about the things that we do at NASA. And also, like, the last thing you want to do when he show up as in do guys somewhere is talk about like you're an expert at something, right?

I mean, that's just completely inconsistent with our ethos. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that we waited. I'm so glad that you were able to come on. I know this is the first interview that you've done. You probably have a ton more. I appreciate you holding out because it took us a little time to get this coordinated. It's an honor for me to have you on here.

So thanks for coming on. And more important, you know, obviously thank you for everything that you did for me for task unit bruiser. everything you did for the teams, everything that you have done and are continuing to do for the Navy, for NASA, and for our great nation. It's an honor to know you, and thanks for coming on, man. You're welcome, and the same goes back to you. So thank you for teaching us what it means to be a warrior, to be a follower, a leader, to be humble, and for caring and loving. the men you served with long after

we've served together. It's a relationship I have always been appreciative of and I know that at any time I could call you and ask you for help. Just I can call any number of our teammates and they would drop

everything to be there. Yes indeed, brother. That's it. That's what it is. And with that Johnny Kim has left the building. Not much to say after that one. Pretty awesome.

Yes. And, you know, a lot of times people, they make little comments about Johnny Kim on social media, even though he's not on social media, but they make comments about him. And what they say is something along the lines of, I'm a loser, you know? Everyone feels bad because they haven't done as much as Johnny Kim. A bunch of underachievers. A bunch of underachievers. Now look, we may not be able to become a seal or a doctor or an astronaut, right?

Those are some good goals, maybe a little bit lofty for an everyday Jack like myself. That being said, maybe we could make some goals. Maybe we could try to become a little bit better in our lives. I think that's a solid thing to do. Do you agree? I agree. Just like Johnny Kim said on the Warrior Kid podcast, because he was a guest on there as well, giant leaps are done with small steps.

Yeah, which is a fitting quote. You know, you got the whole small step for man, giant leap for mankind. There you go. Right? Yes. So Johnny has confirmed that. Now, what I would like to say, I think that there are some kind of small steps that we can take in life. Yes.

To sort of start moving in the right direction. Yes. In a powerful direction. Yes. What do you think? Well, I think among many things, we want to stay fit. We want to stay capable and strong. Fit, strong, capable.

Agree. That's a good bench, Mark. Do we want to have mental clarity? Mental clarity, yes. Okay, good. Any suggestions on those arenas? So let's start with jujitsu. We do jiu jitsu.

Yes, we do. Yes, sir. We can't not do jiu jih Tzoo. It's hard not to do jiu jih Tzzi. Look, you can not do jih Tzu, but you're much better off in every spectrum of your life if you do jiu jitsu. Yes, sir. So let's do jiu jih Tzu. Yeah, so, well, you got to stay in the game, right?

You're doing ghi, you're doing no ghee, great. Both best. When you're doing ghee, you get origin ghee. That's the kind of ghee you get. No one asks me that anymore. I'm glad that means that means like we know. The word's out. The word is out.

So we're going to maintain that word origin geese. Factually. Factually the best geese. Happened to be made in America. You know some people have thrown that as being kind of like one of your words that you use. What? Factually. Sure.

Cool. Yeah. I mean, and I'm going to say factually, you do use that word quite a bit. Yes. That is actually true. Yeah, well, nonetheless, yes. Originmain.com is where you can get your ghee for that jiu-jits. You don't do no ghee.

There's rash guards on there as well. Also for the jiu-zits. Also for the jiu-jits. Or other things, you know? Also, if you're not doing jiu-jitsu, you're taking a break, you know, or you're doing some social distancing or something like this. You know, whatever the case may be. No worries.

We've got some other stuff on there to where is. Garment wise. Garment wise, yes. Body covering items. Sure. Yeah, as it were. Jeans. To be more specific.

Mm-hmm. So two, what, models? Do you call them models? I think models. Sure. The regular, we'll call them regular. They're called the factory jeans. Factory genes.

And I guess you would truly classify them as medium weight. Okay. They're kind of like normal. They're normal. Yeah. Just normal genes. Yes. Those are called the factory genes.

People have been asking me what the difference. Because the other model is called, the other model is simply called Delta 68. So the Delta 68 genes, which are named in honor of my forefathers in Vietnam that fought in the May Kong Delta. And at some point said, you know what? Our normal fatigues aren't strong enough for combat. And they went to good old fashioned blue jeans and so in their honor we have a little something called the Delta 68 genes and so they're a little lighter weight because they're for the jungle by the way. Sure. But they are flexible because we didn't just we didn't go to old school. Yeah. Because in honor of team guys, guess what? Team guys adapt and adjust and make things better. So we took the original blue jeans kept the spirit, kept the spirit. the strength kept the good components but made them better you got a little

something called flexibility so there's your Delta 68 genes oh sorry there's your Delta 68 genes very flexible adaptable all that stuff functional for sure really yes 100% you don't need to add another word to that nope but I will add the word comfort not in application to Delta 68 jeans. These are the joggers, the sweatsuits, and other leisure or active wear. Bro, we're not selling any leisure wear, period. End of story. Stop. Okay. Okay. Okay. I dig it. But when I'm exercising my leisure or engaging in my leisure activities, I'm going to have the joggers on. Or maybe when I'm jogging, whichever. You see what I'm saying? It's leisure and active, is what I'm saying.

Anyway. You do you. Yeah, yeah. See, you do understand. See, it's what I like about you. One of the many things. Anyway, yes, origin, main.com. That's where you can get all these cool things. Also, supplements. Keep you in the game. Joint warfare for your joints. Crill oil for your joints.

Super krill oil is what it's called. Mulk, additional protein in the form of a dessert. Multiple flavors. They are multiple flavors. There are multiple flavors. And they all taste like dessert, straight up. Straight up dessert. Yes.

Also, discipline. Discipline the pre-neutral. Mission drink. I'll make this sound listen to this discipline can come in many forms Because you can get it in a powder you can get it a can and you can get it as a fill Nonetheless Discipline it's good for your brain and your body. How about that that's good that's simple and if you like beverages if you like to drink things

You'll like these you know they they will taste they will satisfy your taste with 100% accuracy and fulfillment. You'll be stoked. So it's not like you're going, I'm going to choke this down. No, you'll be, I drink Jocko Palmer.

This is one all day long. Tasty. Yeah. Taste good. It tastes like you went to the best restaurant you know that serves the best Arnold Palmer's. You ordered one up. This is what they brought you.

Only it made you smarter. And more physically capable. Is Arnold Palmer an alcoholic beverage? No. The OG? No. No. It's not.

It's half, it's half iced tea, half lemonade. The jaco Palmer is half iced tea, half lemonade, and half discipline. Well, there you go. Also, in addition, we got warrior kid milk additional protein in the form of dessert engineered toward the kids. And also jaco white tea, certified organic light tasting. Which is cool, but more important. Certified 8,000 pound deadlift 100% guaranteed which is nice. You can get any and all of these nutritional products at the vitamin shop In your local vicinity. That's in addition to origin mean.com. That's an addition to you want to run to the store real quick and grab it cool boom vitamin shop all day

Yep. Yes, that's affirmative also Jock was a store we have a store and it's called Jocco store Jocco store.com to be more specific. Anyway, this is where you can get your t-shirts. Discipline equals freedom, good. Get after it. Stand by to get a lot of shirts on there. A lot of shirts that maybe when you put it on,

maybe there's a little mindset shift in your brain. Yeah. When you look at it and you go, I'm not going to let this t-shirt down. That's confirmed. So J.P. text me. with a picture and a text message.

And he goes, he goes, hey, I got to admit this is like, for real. He's like, if I like slack or whatever, like, I don't, I can't like mentally allow myself to wear the shirt. He's like I can't because it's like I'm betraying the shirt. For sure what I'm saying? So if you're on the path, boom, you wear the shirt. That's how.

But if you slip off the bat, you're not worthy, you know, worthy, worthy. So your whole wardrobe is just proper. shirts. No choice. You're just gonna stay on the path. Yeah, 100%. So yeah, the hoodie's on there and hats on there too.

So dang, like no matter where you go. If you're on the path, boom, you're worthy. So yeah, man, stay worthy. Represent. If you want, jocco store.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. And someone was, someone was talking about this podcast

and explaining it to someone else. And they were trying to explain the level of science. success of this podcast because I was just standing there someone was trying to explain to someone that I was cool right? Okay It was one of those awkward situations I mean what was the circumstance? Just the circumstance don't really want to go into but it was just it was just a situation where someone was trying to explain to someone else that I was cool I'm not doing it I'm just kind of standing there sure witnessing and then the statement was This podcast has 17,000 reviews or some number maybe that's the number but whatever I didn't even

know that this was a thing to like be excited about oh like counting the reviews yeah okay yeah but anyways it seems like we're in some kind of competition with everyone else okay all right and we like to win so if you're feeling like you want to provide support in victory for this team jump on there and leave a review it's especially good now i read the reviews which is a lot of reviews to read 17,000 reviews they're not super long it's not like a book right but they do make you smile sometimes because people put they put layers into the reviews themselves. They can make

a brother laugh. Yes, they can. In fact, if you want to, you can just kind of go and peruse some of the other reviews and get a smile. Right. See if you catch the layers. See if you catch the connections. Little game. We could have a board game. What? Find the layers.

All right. Find the layers. Make the connections. All right. Cool. This is not the only podcast that we have. We have, we also have the grounded podcast, which is about life, kind of through the lens of the jiu-jitsu. We have the Warrior Kid podcast, which we have a new one up, which is outstanding. We have also speaking of Warrior Kids, we have Warrior Kid soap from Irish OaksRanch.com, young Aidan, making soap. And right now he's making something called Killer Scope. It's killer soap.

And there's one thing, one mission for that soap. And that is to help you stay clean. Great. Actually, my son, he's three, by the way. He likes a killer soap. It's black. To say it's not abrasive it, but it has the little, like, slight scrubbing quality in there. Little slight scrubbing.

That's a slight something. Would it be considered exfoliating? No. I don't think so. I don't know the criteria. I don't think so. But it does, I know what you're talking about. It has a little something in there.

Yeah. A little too much subtle a little bit makes you feel cleaner 100% there you go yeah plus it's black by the way Did I mention that yeah it looks kind of dope The fact that you use something that is black? Yeah, that you'd think oh this is gonna make everything dirty But it actually makes you clean is is like you're working with a handheld miracle It's a modern medical miracle. Hey man, it's that activated charcoal. Yeah, I seen a pro I don't know what it was like an Instagram video or something like this where activated charcoal they're using it like in something to brush their teeth so i was like hey i don't know about all that but apparently you know yeah we used to use it to prevent

us from being killed by chemical biological and radiological weapons activated charcoal so why not wash your body with it there you go seems like a good idea to me so there you seems to work also we do have a youtube channel for the video version of this podcast we want to see what johnny kim looks like See how young he looks You know Just watch YouTube video of it I think that YouTube is starting to become Kind of like a more popular way of watching the podcast

Or how should I say What do you call? Listening to it or whatever Well if you're on YouTube then you are in fact watching it Yeah I guess maybe you could be like have it on the in the background Yeah like in the big screen or you know how people You know smart TVs nowadays that's that's the jam nowadays

You can have it on that whatever And the last we do have YouTube channel official verified all that stuff so that's how you can tell us the real one because there's people they'll cut they'll chop up little chunks and they'll put it on their YouTube channels every once in a while but that's how you know you got the correct one the docco podcast YouTube channel because there's excerpts on there as well enhanced excerpts with fire and smoke and explosions every once in a while yeah because what is what good is a what good is a you know the spoken word if nothing's blowing up I know it's true it's so I feel sometimes too it's true

I didn't know if you were going to make it through today. I thought for a moment you're going to make it through today without bringing in some random sci-fi movie episode. The one time you spoke up, you went straight to just Armageddon movie. Bro, I was about to bust out interstellar, Armageddon, Deep Impact, like there's a bunch of them. I was super nervous coming to this podcast because of that.

I'm like, this could be hard. I don't know if he's going to be able to contain himself. This could just turn into a sci-fi movie discussion. And he mentioned Mars, where that's the next Mish. So, bro, Mars, what are we doing up there? We all applaud you for containing your emotions and not turning this into a sci-fi movie discussion. I think there's a lot of questions that, you know,

we all want to answer unless maybe next time. Anyway, we also have psychological warfare, which is a little psychological that will help you get over a moment of weakness. You can get that from any MP3 platform. We have Flipside Canvas, which is run by Dakota Meyer, so you can have a visual representation of the path, Flipsidecampus.com. We got some books. A bunch of books, actually, it's kind of ridiculous.

Johnny Kim just walked out of here with every book. He's super fired up. So what books did you walk out of here with? Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. Way of the Warrior Kid, one, two, and three. Mikey and the Dragons. Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual, and then Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy and Leadership. There's a bunch of books.

check them out we have echelon front which is my leadership consultancy is what we do is solve problems through leadership if you need help with your team in any category go to echelonfront.com for details we have eF online which is leadership training virtual through the interwebs interactive go to eF online.com to check that out we have the muster 2020 This is our leadership seminar gathering event. The first one is in Orlando, May 7th and 8th. That one, stand by. We got a little scenario unfolding in the nation.

And so we're seeing where that one ends up right now. We are not planning, well, we are on, we are observing and assessing whether that one's going to go down. But if that one doesn't go down, Phoenix, Arizona, September 16th and 17th, Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th. Check out Extreme Ownership.com for details. Every single event that we have done has sold out. So if you want to come register early and especially if this gets compressed into less musters in the same year, it's going to be close.

And also we have EF Overwatch and EF Legion taking leaders from the front lines, from executive positions in the military and putting them into the civilian sector. Go to EFoverwatch.com or EFlegion.com. if you find yourself with a deep desire to hear more from us because you haven't heard enough for some reason four and a half hours wasn't enough of Johnny Kim of Echo Charles of me well you can communicate with us virtually through the interwebs Johnny once again Johnny Kim USA and Echo and I are also there we're on Twitter and we're on Instagram and we are on Phileish, Bush. That goes out, Echo Charles, and I am at Jock Willink.

And thanks, once again, to Johnny Kim for coming on. Thanks for NASA for letting him come out and do this. And thanks to him for being such a humble guy and setting such a great example. Such a great example for everyone to listen to, what he's overcome, what he's done, what he's doing, and what he has done not only in his personal life, but what he has done in the service of his country. and in the service of his friends and his brothers. And the same goes to the rest of our service men and women out there, on sea, air, land, and in space, preserving freedom

and protecting our way of life in this world and beyond. And to police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol and secret service, Thanks to what you all do every day as well and the sacrifices you make to protect us here at home and to everyone else out there There are so many things that you can do so many things that you can do and as Johnny Kim proves You can be humble and you can be helpful as you do those things and in fact the more humble you are The more helpful you are the better you will do That being said, humility is no guarantee for success.

Because while, yes, you have to be humble, you still have to set some serious goals. And you have to work harder than you think is possible. And no matter where you came from, and no matter what's ahead of you, and no matter what happens, keep getting after it. And until next time, This is Echo and Jocco. Out.