Jocko Podcast - 225: Overcome Insecurity. What To Do When Nobody is Respecting You. How to Be Aggressive When You are Not.

Episode Date: April 15, 2020

0:00:00 - Opening 0 09:13 - When my Boss doesn't take his share of ownership. 0:17:44 - At What level up the chain does Extreme Ownership stop?  0:35:52 - How to be aggressive when it's not part of her natural personality. 0:52:45 - How to deal with a negative complainer / Debbie Downer. 1:11:02 - How to mentally prepare for war / adversity. 1:14:38 - What to do when nobody is listening to you or respecting you. 1:51:43 - Do you explain the "why" to your team if they don't ask? 1:57:14 - How to deal with insecurities. 2:05:30 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:27:18 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 225 with Echo Charles and me Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Last month, I went to a memorial service. And it was the first memorial service that I had been to for a long time that wasn't for a seal. It was the first memorial service I had been to for a long time. that was for someone who died of natural causes, a memorial service for someone that had actually lived their full life expectancy, 80, 80 years or maybe 82 years or 83.

I don't remember the exact number, which is kind of interesting in its own right, because when someone that's younger dies, then everyone talks about their age. you know everyone says he was only 26 or he was just 28 he was only 32 and i've been to far too many funerals and memorial services like that far too many funerals where the morning that is taking place is about what is never going to get done potential that wasn't reached a life that was cut short But this memorial was for the patriarch of a group of families who are friends with my family. And this man, this old man, had three sons who are friends of mine. And those sons all have kids and all our kids grew up together.

And we have done a lot over the years, surfing and camping and climbing and playing music, playing music around the campfire or in the little studio. They've actually known these guys for over 20 years. And because I knew them, I knew their old man too. And the old man was, you know, he was a stud in his own right. He was going strong. He was an athlete. He was an entrepreneur.

He liked sports and beer and rock and roll and late nights. And again, this guy was an older guy, you know, 75, 78, 80 years old in his later years. And then he poured everything he could into his family, into his kids and into their kids. And he was a good man. And he lived a good life and the memorial service was, you know, a small kind of private affair. You know, there was probably, I don't know. 70 or 80 people there you know all the extended family with all the kids and and friends the family and some of his friends and it was

It was a nice service and I I said a few words and I kind of you know told a funny story I you know his his son had spoke his sons had spoke and his wife had spoke and it was is emotional and I You know I Took the opportunity to a in the mood a little and what I talked about is I talked about how he he would listen when his sons and me would play music back in the day and he and we would play for hours and he would listen when I talk about us playing music I'm talking about us just just jamming and riffing and we're talking about something about something

that are 15 or 20 or 30 minutes long just just songs that are just meandering through Riffs and bridges and verses and going from just droning heavy thunder to like quiet Acoustic jams and all these different songs to be played just one time and one time only just Impro Impro Improv Improv and they're hard to follow and they're hard to understand and you know he and he would stay down there and he would just listen and he would rock out with us this this old man and he like you could see it in his face he loved it he loved listening to us and you know look his sons are all awesome musicians and I'm the I'm the kind of um not so awesome musician but even the best musicians you know when you're just kind of kind of um of making stuff up as you go along it's not gonna be it's not something that's super easy to listen to and he would listen to us with no expectations no criticism he would

enjoy it for what it was which which was imperfect which was off time which was maybe a little out of tune he would listen to it with a big smile on his face and later it got me thinking how often how often do we look at things that are going on around us and how often do we think if only that was a little bit different if only that was a little bit more in tune if only that timing was a little bit tighter if only if only this had happened a little bit sooner that had happened a little bit later we're constantly picking apart what we see and that's a little lesson the lesson I learned from the old man because in the end even after eight years or 90 years or a hundred

years one thing we're going to still want is a little more time even forever is too short so don't waste too much time wishing and hoping and wanting for things to be different instead sometimes you just got to sit back and you got to smile and you got to enjoy the jam and listen to the music for what it is. Imperfect, out of tune of time. And with that, it has been a while since we've done a Q&A, Echotron. Mm-hmm.

So let's rock and roll. Let's jam. Yes, sir. What do we got? Q&A. Various questions from the interwebs. All right, first question. Jocko, I failed to understand a task that was given to me.

I take ownership that I didn't ask the right questions. But extreme ownership applies to my boss too, and she didn't make sure that I understood it correctly. Or is that a poor excuse? Oh, so, optimally, in the world of extreme ownership, everybody takes ownership. And there are, and I talked about this with, When Dave Burke was on.

Good deal, too. Yes. Is that the, it's interlocking fields of fire. So the various people that are trying to find solutions, they overlap. And problems get solved from two different directions. So the problems get flanked when this is happening. But we can't guarantee always that everybody takes ownership. And we can't guarantee that.

But that doesn't mean that we point our fingers at someone who say, you need to take ownership. because as we know, when you do that, people get defensive. And then they start blaming you. So we avoid that. What we do is we take ownership. So what happens here in this situation? Here's the possible outcomes, right?

If you go to your boss and you say to her, you know, you didn't make sure I understood, right? You go cast that blame. There's a decent chance that she says, well, you actually need to pay attention. That's not on me. And if you don't understand, you need to ask questions. So nothing. She doesn't change anything. She hasn't changed anything.

And by the way, you've created a little bit of an antagonistic relationship here because you're pointing the finger. So that doesn't really help. Now, here's another possible outcome. You go and you say, hey, look, I failed to make sure that I understood this task. Do you mind next time if I give you a quick readback of what I are. think the task is to make sure that I understand it. So I'm taking full ownership. Like this is on me.

I need to do this. And now what you're more likely to get in this situation is, you know, the boss to say, you know what? Of course, absolutely. You know what? Next time, let me make sure I give you a more detailed explanation so that you have a better understanding. That's on me.

And all of a sudden, we've got this problem getting solved from two directions. Now there's also a chance that when you say hey when you when you say something you know hey let me let me let me um Let me make sure let me do a read back with you you might say all that and she goes Yeah cool you you should do that whatever pay more attention in which case right so she's not taking any ownership She's like yeah you should have which is the big fear of people always having their head though when when I say something's my fault people go yeah it is and now they go wait a second Extreme ownership's not supposed to work like that. Yes it is because Because when you take ownership of the problem, I go, you know what? I should have asked you questions.

She goes, yeah, you should have. And you go, yep, exactly. That's what I just said. And now you ask questions and now you make sure you fully understand the task. And now the problem solved. So, yeah, I think when you asked that question, you had the suspicion. What did you say? Is that a poor excuse?

So you had the suspicion that you were maybe perhaps, unfortunately, making a little bit of an excuse. But you're correct. It is a poor excuse. Take ownership. Hey, in an ideal world, the person above you in the chain of command takes ownership as well, but you can't, you can't force them to take ownership. Yeah. So solve the problem. Take ownership and get it solved. Kind of, I mean, kind of when you think of it, do you, and this is actually maybe a follow-up question, maybe.

When you think about it, when you have the expectation reasonable or not, the expectation that other people have to take ownership to, isn't that essentially, negating your whole extreme ownership? Yes. Whether it negates it or not, I don't know. Your hope is, look, the hope is when I start taking ownership, other people start taking ownership as well. But I can't necessarily control that. I can't force them to take ownership.

Yeah. You know, I can say, hey, that's your part of the project. You should have done it. They go, okay, well, whatever. I don't think so, right? So me forcing ownership on you doesn't really work. What I should do is take ownership. What I hope is when I take ownership of your part of the project, you go, hey, Jocko, you know what?

That's actually my department. Let me, let me take that. That's something I should be running. I go, okay, great. So you just took ownership. But if you don't take ownership, Roger that. I got it. And I'm running with it.

Yeah. And the genuineness where this is, this was a question like that kind of you guys would get ask a lot. Like, you know, when, you know, it would a lot of times be about the other person taking ownership in this scenario. right, which is crazy. But yeah, you, you kind of have that hope. Actually, you do have that hope.

Yes, you do. But the actual, like, expectation that, you know, where, like, an expectation is there that can be let down kind of thing. I can't be mad at you. Right. When you don't take ownership, look, well, I guess I can be mad at you, but it doesn't help, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, if you were supposed to write a script for a freaking advertisement that we were going to do for. whatever. I'm trying to think of something cool. If we're going to do an advertisement and you were supposed to write a script and then we show up and you didn't do it. And I'm like, you know what? Hey, we'll come back tomorrow. I'll go home and write a script.

And you're like, what I would like you to say is no, hey, you know what, John? Well, it's actually I'm supposed to write the script for this. Whatever. I'll do it. And I go, okay, cool. But if you don't do that, you go, okay, cool, go, go out the script. I have to say, okay, cool, got it. Finally do some work.

Now what do I learn? I learned that you're really not in the game. And now I'm probably going to start looking for someone else to write scripts. Yeah. Which isn't you. Which is actually giving me some good ideas. Yeah, that genuineness though, right? With yourself.

Yes. That's like if I'm just doing it, if I'm just doing it, if I'm just doing it to get echo to do it and I really don't want to take ownership of it. Well, it's not what we're talking about. That's going to jam you up big time. It's going to jam me up big time. In fact, it's kind of mad. Yeah, that's what I was to say. It's kind of a step backwards, really, like as far as problem solving within the team kind of thing, but yeah, you're going to be mad and resentful. It's like, man, no one's doing their work. No one's taking responsibility. No one's right. And you're essentially in the same boat, but just one one step behind. You're kind of like the problem is the opposite. Yeah. And I mean, you can take this out to the nth degree as well, where I start taking ownership of so many tasks that I can't handle them all, right? That you can do that, right? And then then you go, well, you know what? We're not.

doing this over here. Why aren't we getting that done? Because I don't have the capacity because here's what I'm doing. I'm doing these other 19 things. So that 20th thing, it's not happening. Now, if you want to take ownership of it and make it happen, cool, you got my support. But if not, it's not happening. And that's okay.

It's almost like when you kind of visualize it mentally, it's like there's like levels and the extreme ownership is always on the top. So certain developments can happen. You can take extreme ownership and then like make certain moves and it'll jam it up even more. just because of the moves you made, not because you took extreme ownership or took responsibility. It's because some moves that you made in solving problems, which is all natural. But at the end of the day, it is on you. Like, you have to take responsibility for it.

You have to truly say, I'm going to take ownership. Yeah. And believe it. So that, again, that genuineness to be like, this is my responsibility. Genuinely. Yes. It's easy to be like, the good example is when someone says, well, you know, one of my subordinates made a mistake.

And of course, of course, I get it. Extreme ownership. I get it. But really, it was airfoam. You know, that's where it doesn't work. Yeah. And actually, you know what, the next question is similar.

We should jump into the next question. Yes. It's going to lead us down the same path of similar conversations. Okay, next question very similar. Here it is. My confusion is everyone takes ownership. At what level does that end? Theoretically, the president is the commander-in-chief.

So it could take extreme. ownership, who decides who gets fired? How does that decision get made? Is that an example of extreme ownership? Yeah. So again, this is where we start looking at what this looks like. When does it stop? When something goes wrong, right?

When does it stop? So I was trying to apply this to my life. So with the blue on blue, right, that I had. So Fratricide, Ramadi, friendly fire incident. And I took ownership of it. Now, you got to remember also people below me in the chain of command said, no, it was my fault. No, it was my fault. I said, no, it wasn't your fault.

It was my fault. You know, you could say, you could look at my boss and go, well, why wouldn't it, why wouldn't it be your boss's fault? Why wouldn't it be his boss's fault? Why wouldn't it be their boss? Why wouldn't you take that all the way up the chain of command to the president, who's the senior person in the military chain of command is the president? And why wouldn't he say, hey, Jocco's unit had a blue on blue and it's my fault, right? Right.

Theoretically, like that's what extreme ownership is. Here's the deal. The goal of extreme ownership isn't just to take ownership. The goal of extreme ownership is to actually solve the problem. That's what the goal is. The goal isn't to look who to blame. The goal is to get the problem solved. That's what the goal is.

It's not about just blaming someone or finding someone to blame. And when you take ownership of it, that is the first step that leads us to solving the problem. But it's not the solution itself. So when you say, oh, it was my fault. The problem doesn't go away. Also, firing people, firing someone is not necessarily solve the problem. Now, unless that person, a person in the chain of course, command has proven to be incompetent or immoral or incapable of doing their job or blatantly

negligent if it's one of those then cool that might solve the problem but most likely the people just need to be led properly so so here's what happened my boss listened to me give a debrief and in the debrief yes I took ownership but I didn't just take ownership and say cool now it's gone because it didn't make the problem disappear I said hey here's the here's the new standard operating procedures that we are going to implement to make sure this never happens again. Okay. So now he sees that I am solving the problem. He sees, he sees that I recognize what the problem is.

He sees how I'm going to get the problem solved. The problem is, it isn't getting past me. How can he take ownership? It doesn't make it past me. I'm owning it. Now, a good boss is going to say, hey, you know what, Jockel, I get it. And there's definitely some, I see what you're saying. However, I could have done a better job prepping.

you guys with training or whatever right you know and I'm not saying that was the case but you could you can everyone can still kind of provide overlapping fields of fire to get a problem solved now like I said I had taken ownership of the problem and offered the solutions if I had denied any wrongdoing and blamed other people and not come up with actual solutions then he probably would have looked at me and been like uh you you're fired right because you've got someone now that's incompetent of seeing what the mistakes were incompetent of figuring out the are he needs to fire me yeah he needs to fire me and the person above him the chain of command will go hey what happened with that fractured side he go oh yeah the the

commander out there made the falling mistakes and he's obviously incompetent and I fired him okay Roger that that's now we have a we put a new person in there we start moving that direction but I solved the problem that he saw that we also right here's the solutions we're gonna use these marking procedures we want to use these time distance that we're going to make sure that this does not happen again. Now, if we go back to the base example, look, it's one of the examples I use in leadership strategy and tactics of a machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire. Okay, machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire.

Maybe the machine gunner says, well, you know, no one, no one told me what the fields of fire were. So it was my fault. And then maybe the fire team leader said, I told him, but he didn't listen. So you got two excuses, right? And then the squad leader says, well, you know, the fire team, the fire team leader didn't effectively pass the word. So it's not my fault as a squad leader

The fire team leader is not passed a word correctly And then a platoon commander says well the squad leader Didn't understand the importance of field of fire So it's actually his fault So now we have everyone no one solved You notice no one has solved the problem yet And then the task unit commander says You know the platoon leader doesn't have good control of his men

So still no one solved the problem No one has actually implemented a solution And then the seal team commander The next person in the chain of command Says the task unit didn't you know train themselves properly So still he's just pointing a finger It doesn't solve the problem And then the group commanders

says the SEAL team commanding officers out of touch with what his troops are doing. And then the group commander or the admiral says, you know, the group commander is not paying attention to training. So still, no one has solved the problem. All that's doing is blaming. We're just pointing fingers. And then the,

the SOCOM commander looks at the admiral and says that admiral's not obviously driving realistic training, you know, and so he's just blaming. And then the chairman of the joint chiefs and staff says, you know, obviously SOCOM has no standards. but they still won't do anything. And then the president says the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Stass doesn't understand what's happening in the field.

And then the voters say the president doesn't know how to run the military. And then the president gets voted out. So the president eventually gets fired because of this thing. But that's not what happens. So yeah, yeah, if you just pass to blame, pass to blame, pass to blame and no one takes ownership. That problem continues throughout the whole chain of command. But when people start taking ownership, then the problem gets to the problem. It's solved and it doesn't get anywhere.

There becomes a limitation where the problem is no longer a problem. So if the if the machine gunner shoots out of his field of fire and says, you know what? Hey, my fault next time I will confirm that I know my field of fire before pulling the trigger. So that's kind of a solved problem. Now it gets overlapped a little bit because the fire team leader says, listen, I will make sure and I'll be perfectly clear and reinforce and get a read back. next time I tell him what his field of fire is. I'll do a better job past the word. So now you got like a double overlap on the problem being solved.

And then the platoon leader says, listen, I should have covered fields of fire more in the rehearsals. So now we got triple. So this is not going to be a problem anymore. No one to fire, you know, no one to reprimand. The problem is getting solved. And you could go right up through the chain of command. You know that the platoon leader says,

I'm going to cover it in rehearsals. And the task unit commander says, I'm going to actually go through a briefing on. why fields of fire are so important. And you look at all these stacks of people taking ownership, the problem doesn't get out. The problem gets solved. So that's why a problem doesn't make its way through the entire chain of command when people start taking ownership.

It gets owned and it gets solved. Now, if I got a bunch of people that are blaming each other, Then maybe someone has to get fired and one of the platoons that I was putting through training had a bad assistant platoon commander And he caused the platoon to fail multiple training scenarios and The so every time that little assistant platoon commander will get put in charge of an element he would make bad decisions and screw things up and Now now whose fault is that okay? This is the assistant platoon commander. He's causing the problem but his boss I'm barely even talking to the assistant to sure I'm telling him hey tactfully you did this wrong tackily you did that wrong

but I'm talking to the platoon commander going hey is this guy capable because he keeps making your whole platoon fail now eventually the platoon commander has to own that and the platoon commander who has tried to coach tried to mentor tried to give the guy tactical instruction and he's still not capable then guess what the platoon commander takes ownership and says you know what you're fired so he took ownership of that problem Now does the task unit commander need to fire the platoon commander because Not really because there's no more problem the problem's gone and he goes okay, you know, I get it you had to fire that guy

So when you take ownership of a problem, you know maybe it gets another layer up maybe two layers up But it it it doesn't just a problem doesn't just continue Forever now you can have serious problems where where it just continues, I mean, look at Watergate, right? You know, there was a break in people. The trust was lost, and all of a sudden that problem went all the way up

through the chain of command. And the president resigns. So if it's bad enough and no one takes ownership, you know, if one of those guys, and I'd have to go into the details of Watergate, but, you know, sometimes you see this where someone in the chain of command goes, this was all on me.

And then usually people go, wait a second, are you sure? Are you sure your boss didn't know about this? Are you sure that his boss didn't know about it? And that's kind of what from what I remember about Watergate. It was you know first you got guys going It was just us. We were acting alone and then all of a sudden they figure out no actually the president knew exactly what was happening and therefore He's you know gonna get gonna get gonna get gonna get Gonna get punished for it

So again I think the important thing here is taking ownership is not about Figuring out who you should blame or who you should fire now it's you know even any Extreme ownership. I'm talking through that problem in my own head. In the blue on blue, I'm saying like, I'm trying to figure out who to blame. You know, and I realize there's one person to blame. It's me. Once I do that, then it's not about like, okay, now I'm going to blame myself and now we're good.

No, it's how do I solve the problem so we can win? That's what ownership is. And that's why, you know, going back to this original question, when does it stop? It stops when the problems get solved. That's it. Again, just one of those critical elements, which actually is more important when you think about it, solving the problem part of it more so than it's my fault, it's their fault or whatever. Because if we didn't have this instinctual blaming self or what it called defensive.

Defensive mechanisms. Yeah. It wouldn't just be way different. But since that is a natural thing, it's kind of like it has to be part of extreme ownership. You know, it just has to be for you to be compelled to solve the problem. If you believe, like for real believe, not, yes. If you, if you, if I just go, oh, this is my fault. And that's it.

And I don't really believe that I can solve the problem. It's like this. One of one of the guys at Eshalam Front was talking to a client the other day. And one of the senior people in the, one of the senior executives said, you know, oh, I've got, you know, 1,200 people that work for me. I can't be responsible for what they do when they make a mistake. And here's the deal. When you have that attitude, you're right. You can't do anything.

And this goes back, you know, I talked about it with Daryl Cooper on the Abu Ghraib thing. If the leadership says, you know what, the people that are in the prison that are guarding the insurgents that were captured, if they do something, if they abuse those prisoners, that's not on me. That's somebody on the front line. If you have that attitude, then yeah, you're going to have problems. But if you have the attitude, hey, what happens on the front line is my responsibility? Then guess what you do? You clarify your commander's intent. You make sure that everyone understand what the rules of engagement are.

You make sure that everyone understands what the goal of having these people in these situations are. You making sure they understand what happens if they get caught or, yeah, what happens if they get caught abusing prisoners. What that's going to look like? What that's going to do the war effort? You do all these things to mitigate that. That's what you do. But when you think, well, yo, of course I'm responsible, but I'm not really responsible. Yeah.

You don't take the actions necessary. You don't take that preemptive ownership to solve those problems. And then when something does go wrong, if you throw up your hands and go, I can't control what's happening on the front line. I'm firing you immediately. I'm firing you in 10 seconds. If I, if someone happens to the front line and I talk to the leader and I say, you know, your front line people did X, Y, and Z wrong. And they go, hey, you know what, I can't control what's happening on the front line. I'm like, cool.

You're fired. You know what I mean? Like you if that's your attitude, I want someone that says, hey, you know what? Here's the things that I'm implementing. Make sure that doesn't happen again. Here's the course I'm running. Here's the oversight I'm putting in here. You know, X, Y, Z to solve those problems.

That's what I'm going to do. And I go, okay, great. You're obviously taking ownership of the problem. I'll take, you know, I'm going to take ownership. Maybe I can provide you this or that to help you. But then once it gets there, that, that problem doesn't continue on indefinitely. We get it solved. That's the beauty of extreme ownership.

Is that the problem gets solved? So you're so when you fire a guy or what it you know, theoretically, it's kind of like you're firing him because like you, the example you just sit right there with the guy who has that attitude, right? Oh, I don't control this. You fire him essentially because he's going to continue to either allow or be a problem. That's going to continue. Yes, it's going to continue. So like getting rid of him, replacing whatever, that essentially solves a root of a problem. Yes.

Bigger problem. So what do you feel, you know, because every once in a while you'll find a situation. whatever where they'll fire a guy just as punishment like it's not necessarily that given the circumstance where he'll continue to be a problem it's not that kind of situation or it doesn't it's not obvious that it's that kind of situation but it's like we need someone's head for this mistake you know like that kind of stuff or whatever like how would you like I don't know how would you approach taking extreme ownership does not prevent you from getting fired yeah we should be perfectly clear about that

I will tell you that in my opinion you have a better chance of not getting fired if you take ownership than if you put your hands up or point fingers at other people. Either you put your hands up and say, well, there's nothing I could do about it. That was the front lines. That's not me.

I'm firing you. If you say, well, it wasn't my fault. It was the junior leader that directed that. Oh, so are you going to fire that leader? Or were you going to train them? Are you going to do something different? Are you going to implement some standard operating procedures that can happen?

Or are you just saying you can't control it? Because if you can't control it, I don't need you here. So yes, sometimes people take, ownership and they're getting fired anyways I will say this if they're proactively really truly taking ownership of what is happening if they're taking preemptive ownership they're not going to be sitting in that position in the first

place because whatever things are unfolding they go man if we get caught doing that I'm gonna be the one responsible for it I own this and so hey frontline you can't do that here's the training here's the right protocol here's the here's how you handle those situations and don't ever do that again and they go okay And now when the boss comes to me and says, hey, we had this just flare up. I go, yeah, here's what I did about it. I'm aware of what's happening. I already got it under wraps, boss.

And I go, okay, cool, thanks. But if I go, well, you know, all that stuff was happening and I never did anything about it and I didn't know about it, guess what? Expect to get fired. Extreme ownership does not prevent you from getting fired post-mortem. You know, you caused a problem. You allowed a problem to happen under your command. You have a better chance of not getting fired if you take ownership of it. But if you have an egregious thing happen and it's on your watch, you might get fired.

And if you make excuses, if you think you can kind of weasel your way out of it, you're going to get fired as well. You're just going to look like a weasel. It's funny. I have this vision of the guy, you know, who gets fired right in on his way out. He has his, what do you call it, like a little basket of his stuff, you know, that classic image. And he's like, but I took extreme ownership, but I took extreme ownership. You should have taken extreme ownership prior to this happening. And look, actually, it's funny.

Okay, remember what I say, how extreme ownership is always on the top, right? Like, no matter with the problem. Even that, let's say I got fired, like I got, I took extreme ownership. It was my fault, fully believed it everything. And then I got fired still, right? Meanwhile, I'm like mad at extreme ownership. I took extreme ownership so it didn't work, got fired. Aren't you sort of blaming extreme ownership now kind of thing?

Yes, I guess it. In a strange world, you are correct. You are now blaming extreme ownership. But what you're really doing is you're trying to take ownership after the fact. That's why it's important to have the attitude of extreme ownership. That's the problem with, and this is what I wrote about in leadership strategy and tactics. The problem with extreme ownership is that it's post-mortem. It's after the fact.

Preemptive ownership is, hey, you take ownership of everything that's going on so you prevent these problems from occurring. Yeah. Now, if they occur, I will promise you the best thing you can do is say, here's the problem, here's the mistakes I made, here's what we're doing to fix it. That is your best method of survival. And if you don't do that, or if you do that, it's no, as I just said, it's no guarantee that you're not going to get fired because you still might get fired. But if you run in there and you make a bunch of excuses, I mean, yeah. Yeah. No good.

Check. Next question. Jocco heard general Mattis say that he looks for initiative and aggressiveness in NCOs. I'm not a naturally aggressive leader. Do you believe leaders should be aggressive by nature? When to be aggressive or when do you be aggressive? Does it come off as fake if it's not natural?

So, you know, obviously this is something we talk about all time is that being default aggressive is good for leaders. Yes, that is a true statement. There's a dichotomy. obviously, because you can be too aggressive and then things go wrong and things go bad and things don't work. And yes, there are some people that are, let's say, more aggressive by nature. And then let's also remember that being aggressive means a lot more than just being loud,

brash, and in your face, right? That is the stereotypical thing that we think of when we think of, oh, that guy's really aggressive. You think this guy's in your face. He's yelling. you know, pushing people over. That is not the type of aggressiveness that you need to be an effective leader. You don't need to be a loudmouthed.

You don't need to be brash. You don't need to get in people's faces. What being aggressive means is taking action. That's the kind of aggressiveness that I'm talking about. That's the kind of aggressiveness that General Mattis is talking about. And, you know, the definition, I actually wrote this down, the definition of aggressive, or one of the definitions of being aggressive is forceful and sometimes overly assertive pursuit of one's aims.

So, first of all, forceful we get, right? Sometimes overly assertive means sometimes that you have to go a little bit like harder. And here's why that's important because, listen, in combat, almost nothing will happen the way you want it to if you don't force it that way. Right? You are coming against a powerful force, the enemy, nature, time. There's all kinds of things that are going against you. It's a losing battle.

And if you don't use force of will, then you're not going to get it done. You have to be aggressive and make things happen. I remember so there was a there was we all got interviewed after we came home from Ramadi and I remember I was listening to Seth Stone get interviewed and it was just they were just trying to you know capture whatever information moments historical accounts of what had happened in Ramadi and and Seth said something along the lines of every operation we did, you could feel Jocko beating his head against the wall to make things happen. And, you know, of course, I laughed.

But from his perspective, and it's a good perspective, and it's an accurate perspective, none of this, nothing just kind of, oh, that fell into my lap, that just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen in combat. It just doesn't happen in combat. And so, yes, this idea that you're going to be aggressive is, is very important. But if you think to yourself, well, okay, okay, look, I'm not the type of person that likes to be a loud mouth,

likes to shout, likes to yell, cool, good. It doesn't matter. You don't need to be that way. What it means is, is you, that's what it means. And it can be, this is the good thing about being aggressive. Sure, there's certain parts of your nature that are aggressive, but it can also be trained. You can, you can start to think with an aggressive mindset,

which is I am going to take action. I'm going to overcome obstacle. I'm going to push through roadblocks. I'm not going to take no for an answer. And those are things that you can train. And how do you train them? Look, when you hit an obstacle, you look at it, you, you know, you shake your head and you go, cool, let's go. Let's figure this out.

There's so often times where people, they get told no or they hit an obstacle and it's game over for. They're just done. They're done training. They're over it. And your attitude, you have to go, okay, little roadblock. Cool. How am I going to get through it? How am I getting around it? And I used to put people, so to train people to be more aggressive, regardless of what they're, and believe me, I had, I had guys, you know, seal officers that were coming through that or seal chiefs that were coming through. Real, real passive guys, quiet guys, you know, not type of person that you would figure, oh, the guy's, oh, yeah, that guy's aggressive.

You wouldn't characterize them as that. But I would put, so what I would do is put them in situations where if they didn't make aggressive decisions to make things happen, they were going to get a. I'm violated. Put them in training scenarios like that. Okay. Oh, you want to sit here and you want to wait? Like, you're getting attacked and you want to sit here and you want to wait. You don't want to make a decision?

Cool. In 16 minutes, I will have everyone in your task unit dead. We will kill them all to paintball. If you, and so they learn that. And I go, what do you think happened? You know, and they'd say, well, we started to get surrounded. And I go, and what did you do? Well, you know, we held position.

Okay, how long did you hold position for? We held it for a while. And what did the enemy do? Well, they started to maneuver. And then what'd you do? Well, we held position. And then what'd the enemy do? Well, they maneuvered more.

And then what'd you do? I held position. And then we started taking casualties. And then the enemy maneuvered and then they closed the distance and then they took us out. Okay, what do you think would have been better? Well, perhaps when it first started before they had us enveloped, I could have made a maneuver to get to another building with some more high ground. That sounds like a great idea.

Next time, why don't you be a little bit more aggressive in making things happen? Okay. Put them in the same scenario. They get a little bit more aggressive. They realize that it serves its function and they start to develop the attitude and they start to understand what a lack of aggression will get you because that's an important thing to know, right? It's not just the carrot, it's the stick.

Cool. If I do this aggressive, it'll be rewarding. If I don't do something aggressive, we're going to get annihilated. So here's the other thing that you've got to be ready for. So if you're a person that you lean towards being passive, you've got to start to lean towards being aggressive. And here's the thing that you got to remember. going to make mistakes because when you're aggressive you're taking more risk and often

you're taking more risk now when you if you played out the whole matrix of being passive versus being aggressive I will tell you that being aggressive is the one that ends up on top are there but there are scenarios where your aggressiveness ends up costing you a little bit that that absolutely happens it happens in business it happens in life it happens on the battlefield but But overall, being aggressive is what, this is why, this is why, this is where the idea you've, this is where the idea of aggressive has to be your default mode. This is exactly why aggression has to be your default mode. Your default mode is aggressive.

If your default mode is aggressive and it's not the right answer, you just use the other answer, right? Your default mode is aggressive. That's the why I originally said to these young seal officers, your default mode has to be aggressive. So if you're not sure if you should stay as you go go to the default which is going to be aggressive because Nine times out of ten seven times out of ten eight times out of ten That's gonna be a better move than sitting on your ass and doing nothing That's what's gonna get you killed so your default mode is to go now do you always go with your default mode No, no you don't always go with it to the default mode

But occasionally you go oh you know what I'm not gonna go the default mode you put it you pull the setting out and you go into the other mode Customize it a little bit for that particular situation but your default mode is I'm going to be aggressive and that's the the odds you want the odds you want to stack the odds in your favor what is Jason Jason Gardner says puts it kind of a cool like good way to just really wrap your head around like being in a default mode something along the lines of like it's easier it's better to like have to pull someone back totally then have to push them forward it's it's a million times easier to have to pull the reins in on someone On an element, on a team, on a leader, on a person. It's a million times easier to go, all right, hey, come on back. You're going too hard. Then going, hey, you need to get out there. Because by the way, I mean, if you think about this from like an actual event unfolding,

if an event unfolds and you're the person that's on point and you don't react to it properly, that event needs to make it through you to me before I can now assess what. I think you should do and then tell you to go do it and then kick you in the ass so you go do it. I don't want that. We already lost. I want you to go, hey, oh, we just got this event started unfolding. I'm on it. And you look back at me, hey, Jocco, I'm solving this problem right now.

Oh, what's the problem? Right? I don't even know what the problem is yet. You're already solving it. That's what I want. And if I happen to occasionally have to pull the reins on you, I'm more than happy to pull the reins on you. So, yes, that's universal. It's easier to lead someone that you have to pull the reins on than you have to push.

We'd rather pull back than push forward. And that idea of being aggressive is part of that. So I want all my, I want all my subordinate leaders to be aggressive. And as a leader, I know that my supporters are going to make mistakes while they're learning to be aggressive. And even when they're being aggressive and I'm, they're considered fully trained and fully ready, they're still going to make mistakes.

I'm still going to make mistakes being aggressive. I'm going to make mistakes. But we're going to play the odds. And the odds are, the odds are you be aggressive. I'm trying to think of a good blackjack. You ever play blackjack before? Yeah. So, I mean, like, there's, you know, dealers showing a whatever.

Dealer's showing 20 and you're showing a 14. You got to hit it. Like, that's the odds. The odds are you got to hit it. Mm-hmm. Dealer's showing a 14 and you're showing a 14. You got to let you got a hold. Let the dealer.

Let the dealer take the hit. Do they call it? I forget what. Do they call it showing 20? Because, you know, one is down, one is up, right?

Do they call that showing 20? Well, you have a 10 or. Yeah, yeah, because you don't know what the other card is. You just assume that it's a 10. So you're showing 20.

Okay. Yeah. I haven't played blackjack in a while. I can't believe I'm like struggling with my thought process around blackjack around the numbers. That's how, yeah. It was more of a terminology situation.

Yeah, but you play the odds. Yeah. And there's rules when you're playing the odds in blackjack. There's rules of what you hit and what you don't. And you stick with the rules, the odds are going to be on your side. Yeah. Yeah. More than if you don't, if you just sit back.

And that's, and so we're playing the odds, we're playing the odds with leadership. And the odds are your default mode, it's not that you never come out of default mode. The odds are you be aggressive. So back to this question here. Another couple things in this question. When to be aggressive? Look, the default mode is be aggressive. And sometimes you look at it and you go, no, now's not the time.

Does it come off as fake or not natural? Hey, it's not being aggressive from this perspective isn't how you're acting. It's the decisions that you're making. It's the decision. I was working with a client yesterday. And we were talking about data. I think it was a client call or it was another. Yeah, it was about data.

And it was actually the very similar question. Hey, I'm not very aggressive and I'm more of a data guy and I like numbers and that's how I roll and yet I'm not getting recognized and I was like cool Get aggressive with your data put your data together and present it up the chain of command not to say hey look at me But say hey here's what's going on here's what I'm doing You're being aggressive with your data you're showing them what's happening because the guy wasn't getting the recognition That he needed right anyway so that meant his senior leadership didn't know what he was doing Which meant he's not getting the resources that He needs to do his job and instead of being like hey this is what I need because he's not an aggressive guy

He's sitting back and just getting resources stripped away from him. I said cool you're a data guy Record the data of what you're doing present it and the dad let the data speak get default aggressive with your data Did I miss anything here? Yeah so it's not natural yeah I mean I mean if you all of a sudden start to try and act Yeah you know this this new way yeah yeah yeah it's it's it's it's It's probably not going to go good. Now, can you, do you sometimes have to learn like, okay, you know what? I got to stand up and say something. I got to put word out, right?

You know, and I watched many guys in my career go through the transition of being a little bit less aggressive. And they realize, you know what, I'm in charge of this thing. I got to go put the word out. And that's perfectly fine. Yeah. Yeah, those kind of, for lack of a term, superficial personality traits that are aggressive. Some people say, oh, well, that's aggressive. Yes.

You know, where there's more depth to it. we're like because again like you know you can think of like a I don't know some fictional or maybe even non-fiction not fictional like maybe Japanese business tycoon

who doesn't say nothing really you know but you know he's making aggressive moves like that's an aggressive guy kind of you know it goes deep and then you know a guy who how you were saying like he yells and screams and has a loud voice or whatever

it's kind of okay if that's your personality that's gonna land for sure but it's more about the decisions you make Well, when you say it's going to land, what do you mean? Because that might just make a bunch of people angry. Right, right. Sometimes. Well, it depends on what you're yelling and screaming for sure.

But what you're saying is there could be someone that's loud and scream, but they're using that to cover the fact that they're actually not making any moves. Potentially. Potentially. So the yelling and screaming has very little do with aggressive movement on the battlefield. Yes. Is what you're saying. Oh, I'm saying there's more depth to it.

But the point actually is that... You should have just taken that point because that was a good point. You should have taken that one and run with it. But I'll let you continue. This will probably less gloriful. But nonetheless, because he's concerned about faking it or coming off of his fake, where if you're focused on those like a superficial element of your personality being aggressive, that's the part they're going to smell is fake if you're trying to change that part of it. For sure. You know, like, oh, this, bro, we used to have this in seventh grade. I don't know. I think it's like a music teacher.

I don't know, something. Super aggressive music teacher. He was like a nice dude, like really nice. There's not too many stereotypical hyper aggressive music teachers. No, man. He was, no, he wasn't. I had an assistant platoon commander and aggressive, great guy. And he, you know, I didn't, you know, as I got to know him, you know, and I was like,

so would you study in college? And he's like, percussion. Yeah, man. What? What are you talking about? I was like, what concussion? What? He was like percussion, drumming.

He was a drum. He started drumming in college, which is just kind of. Just going deep in percussion. Yeah, I didn't know you could major in percussion. I mean, I guess, but anyways. The history of percussion. Yeah. Properties of percussion.

My point is, had he become a music teacher, he probably would admit it because he was an aggressive assistant platoon commander. Yeah. Had to pull the reins on him sometimes. We'll be out there getting after it. This guy was not aggressive at all. He was like a nice guy trying to please everyone, you know, short term and long term kind of thing, which didn't really work with, I'm pretty sure it was seventh grade.

So he was like, I remember guys would just run circles around him. You know, like people wouldn't listen and all this time. He had trouble controlling the class. We'll say that. And then at one time he tried to switch his personality. One time he dropped a book. You know how like sometimes when you drop a big book? Yeah, sometimes when he hits correctly, it's like, boom, it's like a fire.

So one time, bro, he tried to do that and it didn't make the sound. And like no one was like, what the fuck is this guy doing? He's like looking to everybody with his eyes all big. nonetheless I think that was like I think he got aggressive one day and people like shut up and we're like hey this guy's like you know how when someone's never aggressive and then they start yelling you're like everyone kind of beats quiet like hang this guy's yelling so I think he might have got a small little payoff one day and then from then on he started to try to be like aggressive but everyone could smell it on him like bro that's not even your thing so he worked against him yeah everyone was kind of laughing at him now he's like a weirdo yep so no no need to do that no need to be throwing the music book on the table. No, no.

The big textbook. It was on the floor too. Yeah, it didn't work. Unfortunately. All right. Next question. So this question is actually that I got one of them

that I got from EF Online. So EF Online, you know, since the big lockdown in the world, we've pushed a lot of resources and time and effort into EF Online. It was actually something that we were working on. So it was good timing. But EF Online used to be a relative

static training platform really aimed at enterprise clients so big companies would train their people based on the leadership principles and but it's it's a powerful tool and so with the lockdown we've been working a lot of our clients through webinars so what we basically we've we've we've we've really kind of re-formulated reformulated and are reattacking this online world. And so what we do, so we're doing a bunch of live webinars. We're doing Q&A sessions. We got chats going on.

We got, we've got a forum. So we got all kinds of things that are happening. What it's doing is now it's got, we got like a community of people that are on there all the time. They're asking us questions. We're just, it's just awesome. And so one of the questions that I got asked was from a, from a police officer who was basically talking about he's got some complainers or he was talking about one complainer in particular and the question was what advice do you have for dealing with that one officer on your team that is the debby downer they complain about everything you know the one no matter what you ask the team to do that one guy or gal that sucks

all the energy out of the room the buzz kill so I thought that this was a good question and I thought it was a good question because everybody knows that there's a

everybody knows that person so much that there's a term for it Debbie Downer right there's an existing a preexisting term for that person that's complaining and being a being negative about everything so a couple

and what's cool what's really cool about doing this stuff online is now, you know, right now I'm reading the question. When I'm doing this, we're, the person's there. Like we're talking face it. I mean, it's not face to face, but it's face to face because you're on the interwebs and I'm looking right at the person. They're looking right at me. And so it's very cool. You're having a conversation. You know, the one thing that's negative about this podcast is, well, it's us reading our best interpretation of a question through the interwebs. Whereas EF online, you can actually clarify. You can talk. You can get detailed. You can get

details and it it makes it really makes it really cool so so so so so back to this question Debbie downer so leadership strategy and tactics I talked about what one of the solutions that I have for a lot of different leadership problems is actually putting people in charge so you put somebody in charge of the of a mission of a project of a task and they want to complain about it cool they can complain about themselves because they're the one that's running it so that's that's one option and that that option works a lot, right? Sometimes it might not work.

Sometimes it might not be feasible. You know, you can't take maybe a junior person and put them in charge of a giant project because it's just you, the way the responsibility has been doled out from the chain of command, you're not allowed to put, you know, private Jackson in charge of or private Debbie Downer in charge of something. So here's another, and this is another option

that another thing that you can do, and this is a really incredibly brilliant solution, listen to them, right? Actually, listen to what they have to say. So sometimes people complain because they complain so much no one actually ever listens to them, and they just keep doing it, and it has no impact. The only impact that it has is it gives them a little good feeling because they got to put up a little protest, right? They got to throw a little shot, a little negative shot at the hole, at the man, at the system, at the mission, at the bar.

They get to just throw this little complaint out. And look, it's kind of within the rules, right? Like you're, it's no one, it's almost bad to say, hey, I don't want to hear any complaints, right? Right. So you complain and you get away with it. Yeah, yeah. So that's what they do. They got to get this passive, aggressive little complaining going on.

So one thing you can do is actually listen to what they say. Actually, say, oh, you know what? Echo. Actually, can you meet me after this meeting? I want to actually dig down and see what you're talking about. All of a sudden, they're thrown for a loop. Just that right there can solve the problem. And then when they comment, when you talk to them, actually write down what they are talking about.

So those are two solution things. And then, you know, again, because EF Online is live and I'm actually talking to the person that's asking me this question. And so, you know, I said, well, hey, what's going on? And I started digging out, digging into it a little bit. And the complaint was, again, this was the police department. The complaint was about the current mission that was happening. And the mission that they had been, the mission that his squad had been in charge of had been shifted. And this person, well, that's main thing that this person was complained about, why are we doing this?

This should be someone. And, you know, it was a hard mission. And then, as I'm talking to the leader, the leader actually says, says, like, well, you know, I didn't like the mission either. So think about that. Think about that. The leader didn't like the mission. And one of the subordinates is complaining about it.

And I'm saying, of course you're going to have people complaining about the mission. You don't even like the mission. You don't even like the mission. And now you're surprised that some of your subordinates are complaining about. And one in particular that always complains anyways is complaining about something that you don't even like. So, you know, here's the deal. Like I said, talk to the complainer, write down their complaints, and then actually give some responses or reasons that explain why things are happening the way they are happening.

Actually give explanations for what that individual is complaining about. And by the way, if you don't have good explanations, then go get them. Go up your chain of command and say, hey, boss, here's what's going on. This is what we're this is what some of my troops are saying and I agree with these parts. Can we get some explanations behind this? So it's like when we got to our body, you're going to be working with Iraqi soldiers. I got all kinds of complaints about that out of the gate. And as I've said many times before, I was the chief complainer for about three minutes before I said, okay, why are we actually doing this?

Let me think about this. And I didn't have to ask this up in my chain of command because I figured out why we were doing it. It was what we needed to do to win the war. And so then I was able to explain. You want to complain? Cool. I accept your complaint. I agreed with it a minute ago.

Here's the solution I came to. Here's the answer. Here's why we're doing this. And all of a sudden, the complaints are going to go down. And then if you've got people that are complaining about things, you give them the answer. And you'll move forward. That's why I don't look at complaining as a negative thing necessarily. And by the way, if complaining is happening, and I look at complaining is happening, and I

Let it continue to happen. Whose fault is that? Is it Debbie Downer's fault? Is it? Kind of. No, no, no. I almost just hugged a knife at you. Yeah, no.

It feels like it. That's why it's short term. You can be like, oh yeah, I can't believe Debbie Downer. All he got to do is not complain. Yeah, just shut up. Don't complain. No, actually, I own this. Oh, one of my subordinates is complaining.

Okay, cool. How can I solve this? How about we figure out, research what the complaints are about. And not only does it stop them from complaining, but I'm actually building. relationships with the team because I'm being responsive to what their complaints are. And when I do that, I make the team tighter and I make the operational capability of the team higher and now we can do a better job accomplishing our mission.

So when you get a complainer, try listening to what the complaints are. You can try putting them in charge. You can give them explanations as to why the things they're complaining about aren't happening because if I got my team complaining, I'm going to assume that there's some validity to it. And if there's no validity to it, well, then cool. You come to me with a complaint that's completely invalid. And I show you, oh, yeah, here's why your complaint's invalid because this, this and this.

So now you're complaining about something that is not true, right? You're not going to continue down that road. You're going to go, oh, I didn't realize that, boss. Or you're going to say, well, if that's true, boss, then what about this? And I go, okay, let me, let me figure that one out for you. I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah, it kind of goes along with.

like how you'd say like when you pull the thread you know, like the beginning of that thread is just the complaint, right? But when you start pulling the thread all the way out, it's kind of like, oh shoot, there's some valid stuff in here. But in a different situation, it could be that, yeah, this guy's just a complainer. There's answers to all of this stuff that may be like, I don't know, maybe it's his laziness or his whatever, like all invalid complaints.

When you pull out that thread, it's like you can see that too. Right. Yeah, there could be valid. It could be invalid. Yeah. pull the thread, find the answer to that, and give it to him. Listening. The most underrated tool of leadership, your ears.

But you can kind of, I mean, it's not like so like ludicrous though, like to dismiss a complainer. It's not that because, you know, like how you said, everyone knows a Debbie Downer. And man, after a while, the complaint can be valid or invalid. It's kind of like, man, you just, but you just complain so much, you just dismiss them already, you know. Literally like a deba die. I'm thinking but yes, but the only way to break them of that they've gotten into that habit because their complaints don't have any They don't have any They don't have any outcome. They don't have any result the only thing they are is a little a little Yeah, a little pay. What's that what's that thing? Oh the little dopamine hit when I say this is the dumbest mission we've ever done

Yeah, and then that's it. It just makes me feel good everyone heard me You know, everyone knows that I think this is dumb And now I'm just gonna continue to be going through the motions of whatever But I'm being negative and I'm dragging the people down But at least I got mine. Yeah And the habit forms that yeah and you can break that habit When someone goes oh this is the dumbest mission I've ever seen Hey hey I can what what part of the mission do you think is dumb let me

You know what part? Let me get my let me get my notebook and write this down What do you got? You know it's another thing on it. You know it's a another thing on it I've been doing these leadership primers of saying like hey here's a little thing that Here's a little thing to think about right when you when you for the reason I use this word leadership primer So Hackworth has a book called Vietnam Primer Get people ready to it was written in like whatever 60 68 When guys were getting ready to go to Vietnam and so he wrote Vietnam primer to give them a heads up get them mind right give them some good tips for for how that to be ready to deploy well think about this think if think if you were walking

to your house and there was a a bad guy in there a criminal had broken in and he and as soon as you walked in he he he you know threw a punch at you or he was let's not go that he when you walked in he's confronting you yeah think if 10 seconds before you walked in you got the message that said hey when you walk in here there's a bad guy in your house you're you would respond way better yeah so the leadership primer EF online the leadership primer is just me saying hey here's a little something to think about today here's a little something to put you and one of the leadership primers I did the other day was get a notebook get a notebook a little notebook keep it in your pocket when somebody tells you something up the chain or down

the chain of command get out your notebook and write it down yeah you know how I'm how powerful that is. Think of it. Think of it from either direction. Think of you're my subordinate and you tell me something and I get out my notebook and write it down. What are you thinking?

Yeah, yeah, like, dang, this guy cares. Yep. Now, what if you're my boss and you say, hey, Jocko, can you take care of X, Y, Z? I go, yes, no problem, sir, and I get out my notebook and write it down.

What are you thinking? Same thing. Now, your initial thought, it's like, of course, it's positive. I actually have to follow through. I can't just, like, take notebooks and throw them away every day, right? So you have to actually take your notes

and log them down. But that's a little tool that you can use. You wouldn't be able to get. When I was in the dames, when I was in the teams, you wouldn't be able to find me without a notebook. You would not be able to find me without a notebook. And by the way, I have a good memory too. I have a good memory.

It doesn't matter. When you tell me something, I'm going to write it down. Because, A, I don't want to forget it. And B, I want you to know that I got you. And you know what's cool? Three weeks goes by. And I go, hey, Echo, you remember you're asking me about this piece of gear that you thought we should have?

here's the research we actually have them ordered. You know what I'm saying? Boom. Or you're my boss and I say, hey boss, three weeks ago you mentioned this to me off the cuff. You said you wanted to know how many guys I had called for this thing and how many we're going to have ready for deployment.

I just want to let you know the number is 12 right now and I'm going to have 17 when we go on deployment. And the boss goes, man, it's good. So what does that mean? Does that mean I'm kissing my boss's ass and brown? No. It means, first of all,

he had a reason for asking me that. And second of all, his trust in me just went up. a little bit. Yep, fully. In both directions. Yeah. So that's the point here.

When someone starts complaining to you, look, let's face it, a lot of time these complaints, they're throw away comments. And now of a sudden, you're not letting them get thrown away. Oh, yeah. You're getting out the notebook on that. So little leadership primer,

carry a notebook with you. Something happens, write it down. And I actually, you know, you could say, yeah, you could just get out of your phone and go into the notes thing. But I kind of don't agree with that. Let's face it, when people pull out their phone, unless you go hold on, you know,

if you're going to pull out your phone and make a note in your phone, you've got to tell them what you're doing. You got to say, hold on a second. Let me, let me write that. Let me put that in my notes. Because otherwise they think, oh, cool, I'm telling him a major problem I've gotten. He's shooting a text.

Yeah. Like getting bored with it. He's checking the gram. So, yes, listen to your complaint. Overall, listen. When people have complaints, listen, dig down, pull the thread. Put them in charge, that's an option, but also listen, pull the thread, dig down,

find the solution, find the reason, and explain it to him. Yeah, the note taking thing. I can't help, but, and this is just an extreme version of it, so which I think you kind of like almost implied a little bit there where, you know how like on the movie, I don't know which one, all of them, I don't know, you have the little, you know, you have the powerful boss walking around, then the little, you know, note taker. Taking everything, writing every little thing down, you know, kind of thing.

Don't be that guy writing everything down. No. You know, because it's kind of like, bro, this guy's just a weird note taker right now. We're actually writing down positive things, right? Now, I guess a complaint's not a positive thing, but it's positive that you're saying, oh, wait a second, there's a problem. There's something you don't understand. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it's, it almost goes back to like opening your mouth to begin with, you know, like you only say important stuff. Don't just blah, blah, blah, blah. All the same thing with a note taking almost kind of thing where if you, if you're, you You're this, especially if you're a subordinate, right?

Where it's like, oh, yeah, let me take some notes on. And also, let me make this perfectly clear. You're not taking notes so that you can prove to them that you're listening. No, yeah, yeah. You're actually taking notes so you can log down what they're saying and you can pull the string on it either direction. Right. That's what you're doing. You're not doing it so, oh, cool, I'm going to make a good impression.

No, you're doing it because it's going to do a bit. It's going to make you do a better job so you can better support the guys above you and below you in the chain of command so that we can win. Bro, that's such a good point because that's, that's, that caricature in the movie who's taking notes all, you know, like the little, you know what, taking too many notes?

I knew guys that would write things down and never do anything with them. Yeah. I have less respect for you. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. If you write it down, man,

I expect some action. Yeah. Right? I expect some action. Oh yeah. But that's the point, right, where that's why that character, character exists in the movie

because he's displayed and shown as a kiss-ass guy writing every little thing down. And you could tell that's his whole intention is to be the kiss-ass. It's like to display that, you know, kind of thing. And that's what it comes down to. Like your actual intention because like you always said,

man, people can smell that on you. If you're like there to, if you have some ulterior motive or whatever. Intention has a strong smell. Yes, it does. You can quote me on that. Intention has a strong smell. And if your intention, what your intention is will be smelled by the people around you. Oh yeah. And that's how it's going to look.

It has a look too. It has a look, but the smell is more pungent in both directions. In both directions, by the way. When my intention is to take care of you, that's, that is felt. It's smelt and it's pungent. If my intention is to kiss your ass, you can smell that just as well. Smell it from a while, mile away. Cool. Yes. Agree. Next question.

This is going to sound like a strange question, but how would you advise mentally preparing for the horrors of war? Like if you knew someone you cared about what's going to be on the front lines, what would you tell them? I would tell them to detach. You know, I would tell them to detach. I would tell them to do their job. but don't get all caught up in it because that's what you have to do. If you're going to the front lines and right now there's a bunch of doctors and nurses going in the front lines and hospitals and that can be emotionally overwhelming.

Look, they do that for a living, but when you see overcrowded or whatever's happening, you can see where people might be overwhelmed by that or their health at risks or they're overwhelmed by that. So do your job, but you've got to stay detached from it. Don't get all caught up in it. And also I would say I would tell them look it's it's oh the the emotions that you're going to have are okay and it's normal You're going to feel scared you're going to feel disgusted you're going to feel horrified you're going to feel sick all those things are are All those things are normal

There are normal feelings that you're going to have when you are seeing this side of humanity for the first time I would say I would tell them to write down and talk about what they see what they hear what they feel with other people because if you try and keep them contained inside your own head You won't process them as well when you write things down it forces you to think through them when you talk about it with other people You get some of that out of your system So I think that's powerful Separate work from home right so you're gonna go in this horrible place don't bring that home with you how do you do that

Change out of your uniform get to put you put you put put you put your you put your your flip-flops on, put your shorts on and your t-shirt when you get home. Don't wear your uniform. Don't wear your police uniform. Don't wear your doctors. Don't wear your scrubs home. Take them off. Don't wear your EMT uniform home.

Just don't do that. Change. And then compartmentalize because you got to compartmentalize these bad things. And I guess maybe that could be construed in a negative way. like I'm saying lock down, you know, put them in a compartment and put them away. I'm not saying that.

I'm saying separate. Because what I'm saying, I'm not saying lock things, put things in a box and lock them there. I'm not saying that at all. I'm actually saying the opposite. Write about them, talk about them,

talk about what you experience, where you felt, all that stuff. It's going to make you feel better. But keep it separate from people that don't have that experience, right? So you don't want to drag home the war to your wife and your kids.

You don't want to drag home the ER to your wife and your kids. You don't want to drag home the perpetrators and the horrible things you see as a police officer. You don't want to drag those home every day. So compartmentalize. And I think those are the things that I've done that I think it helped me. All right. This next question, you mind if I read this next question? I don't mind.

This next question is kind of, it's a good question. I think we're going to get a lot out of it, but it's a little bit of a longer question. And I'm going to actually end up reading it, I think, twice. First I'm just going to read it through. Here we go. I've been working on asking you this question for over a year, and this is the best way I think I can articulate it. Everything I say falls on deaf ears. I try to give advice when asked or if someone is in trouble and they don't listen to the sound advice.

Then later, I try to get them listen to someone else that might have more credibility, an author or podcaster, philosopher, etc. And they still won't listen. They tried their hardest to make what solutions I'm trying to give don't not apply to them because of X, Y, and Z. All excuses, almost as if they are too good to implement the advice because it came from me and me alone. Literally solving people's problems, and they are deliberately not listening.

It's not how I present the information they should use. My tonality is just fine. It's almost as if they won't listen because they know I'm right. And I want to prove, and they want to prove I'm wrong by not giving me the respect. I feel the majority of people see me as lesser, not worthy of respect or listening to even, though I use such obvious logic.

These people continuously try to exercise power over me defiantly. An extreme non-influential presence, even with logic, tact, respectfulness. No one wants to listen to me. People just refuse to even respectfully move out of the way when I'm trying to get around them. Not even strangers, people I live with. I don't understand what it is about me that most people don't respect. Everyone seems to have the attitude to defy or oppose everything I say no matter the circumstances

Whether I'm trying my best to lead give advice Et cetera people won't listen to me they won't get behind me I lack so much influence. It's not funny. I try but to no avail What do you think so look. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's a rough situation right? Yes like it like I feel for the individual in that situation. I feel, you know, I think, ah, imagine the frustration that you feel being in that position where you just, no one's listening to you.

That being said, you know, we have a situation here where you can see a lot of it is based on everyone else's problems and not mine. So it starts off everything I say falls on deaf ears. So even that statement right there, even that statement right there out of the gate, it's not what I'm saying, it's that they are deaf.

Right. Yeah. So that right there. We're opening, opening salvo is you're not listening to me. Then I try to give advice when asked or if someone is in trouble and they don't listen to sound advice. Again, whose fault is that? I'm giving you sound advice. Everyone else, they're not listening.

Continues on. Then I try to get them to listen to someone else that might have more credibility, an author or podcast or philosopher, and they still won't listen. And I'm sitting there thinking myself, I wonder what that sounds like. Right? I imagine that it sounds something like, you know, you should, you know, Hackworth says the exact same thing as me. Or, or, you know, you might wanna listen to some Sam Harris. Because if you listen to some Sam Harris,

you listen to some Tim Ferriss, you'll see the light on this. Meaning I'm over here, I already see the light, you know. You might wanna, you might wanna check out the light with me. Or, you know, Marcus Aurelius is a, He's a good reference point, you know? One of the classic stoics, you might want to check him out. So I feel like there's a little, you know, you're just bolstering your opinion by offering other people that you agree with.

And now it's supposed to give it clout. It's kind of the feeling I get a little bit. Okay, continuing on. Then they try their hardest to make what solutions. I'm trying to give doesn't apply to them because of X, Y, Z, all excuses. And again, now instead of saying, hey, what way am I explaining these that people have got perfect solutions allegedly, which again, that's a huge, that's a huge assumption, is that my solutions are freaking perfect and they just won't listen.

But instead of saying that, it's like, oh, maybe my solutions number one aren't that great or number two, maybe I'm not explaining them out very well. But none of this is my fault. It's their fault and they're just making excuses. That's not on me. And then it continues almost as if they are too good to implement the advice because it came from me and me alone. And this is where you start to hear that.

It's where I start to get a little bit of a sense of the mindset of the individual. because the individual's perception that people don't like or people don't respect them, the individual, it causes them, it causes that individual to act in ways that they, that that individual doesn't even perceive themselves. So what shows through, again, intent has a smell. What shows through is frustration. What shows through is resentment. You know what I'm saying?

resentment shows through you can't hide resentment annoyance when you're annoyed that people aren't listening to it shows through arrogance show when you when you think you have the perfect solution and that's how you're coming across that's how you're talking people that shows through and so although that that perception that people don't like me that perception that I'm that that people are looking down on me that perception that you have of yourself shows through it. It comes across in a bad way. The next sentence, literally solving people's problems and they are deliberately not listening.

Again, none of this has to do with me. None of it has to do with my solutions themselves. None of it has to do with any of that. They just don't like me. It's their fault. And by the way, in doing that, we have to assume that these people are just going to fail because they're not listening. So I would rather fail than listen to Fred here.

And then he can, and then this is just, it's not how I present the information they should use. My tonality is just fine. Oh yeah, it's fine. Right? Yeah. Right? This is not my fault.

My tonality is fine. Like the way I'm presenting, look, I'm presenting this in the most just beautiful way. Yeah. It's not, it's not all me. It's not my fault. My tonality is actually perfect. The way I present. my ideas is so good.

You know it's funny. It's like I know you're exaggerating, but it's for good reason. Yeah, I'm trying to make the point. Yeah, exactly. And that's good because you know,

I'm putting myself in his shoes where I'm like, my tonality is fine. Like what does it feel like when you for real believe that your tonality is fine? You say, my tone is fine.

Like, but really what it really is is never, never really thought about it. It just, it doesn't stand out as not fine to me, you know? So it's like,

yeah, my tonality is fine. I'm going to include that in there just so we all know kind of thing right that's how it feels for me yeah but in reality it's like oh is it fine just fine because apparently not right so that's why you exaggerated it to help it stand out as a thing you see what I'm saying but yes that feel it that's what I felt my tonality is fine that's what I felt you might as well have said my tonality is the most perfect tonality in the history of tonality yeah

yeah because yeah because that's not something that you would even think about yeah yeah yeah you just be like as a person but you go through it and you think you know what what the way I talk to everyone is actually fine it's actually good yeah like if it wasn't I would know about it here clearly stand out to me yeah exactly next one next sentence it's almost as if they won't listen to me because they know I'm right and they want to prove I'm wrong by not giving me the respect all kinds of insecurity issues right there all kinds of all kinds of insecurity and that insecurity comes across and it doesn't come across as like oh you You know, Echo's kind of insecure, but we'll listen.

No, it comes across as you're overcompensating by a long shot. And by the way, it's almost as if they won't listen to me because they know I'm right. I mean, that's just crazy talk, right? How many times, Echo Charles, how many times have you heard me say, I know I'm right? None. Zero. And there's some things that I'm pretty knowledgeable about. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. There's some things that I'm pretty knowledgeable right. About and how many times have I and I don't know what this I don't even know what this guy does for a living But let's say maybe Well, there's no talent, but even a master of something shouldn't say I know I'm right Yeah very very very seldom yeah very seldom man especially that right there I know I'm right there's a difference between like I know this is true Or I know this how about this I think this is true. Oh, okay, well,

I'm talking like like like because you're going next level yeah okay so okay yeah if you want to say factual like he was there he was that person was there at that location like I know that that's true like that's different than saying I know I'm right about this you know I know I'm right I know yeah no you have never said that meanwhile this guy is saying it um and and by the way you know this is like starting to get into the hey everyone is against me Not only that every like the whole world Everyone that I that I deal with They all don't listen to me

What is wrong with everyone else right? This isn't even like Hey look you and I had a little disagreement I'm gonna take ownership of it and just say it's my fault No this is everyone yeah Continuing on I feel the majority of people see me as lesser Not worthy of respect or listening to even though listening even though I use such obvious logic. Now this is where I start to feel like sympathy, right?

Like, because now you got this bad, low self-esteem, low self-opinion. And when you see yourself as lesser, then you start to overcompensate for it. Many people start to overcompensate. And, you know, they start to try and act like, they start to say things like, I use obvious logic. Yeah.

There's a whole genre of people who like to use the terms facts, logic. And so when they say, you know what, Janko, look, I come at people with facts and logic and sometimes it just pisses them off. And what they don't, you know what I mean? Yes, sir, I do. It's that it's the thing that it's one of the things that that you say you refer back to a lot which is when someone says you know Hey, I'm just that type person. You just have to deal with it. They feel the same way about saying look, I just deal in facts and logic and You know people just need to people can't accept it sometimes and and and what are you going to say? Well, you know Lies are better or it's one of those it's kind of like you put yourself on a in a in a in a position of authority right? Listen

I like to use facts and law Yeah, it's like irrefutable. Yeah, I use facts and logic and other people are just emotional and crazy and obviously everyone's just listen to me So that's kind of that's kind of a little bit of that tonality here So it continues these people and by the way people is in quotes I'm not kidding people is in quotes these people as if they're sub-humans Yes sir these people continuously try to exercise their power over me defiantly and extremely And then it's kind of a weirdly worded sentence an extreme non-influential presence even with logic tact and respectfulness

So he's talking about himself no one wants to listen to me So saying that you have tact respectfulness and logic I mean this is this is there's no ownership about the message about the delivery about the tonality about the attitude everything is everyone else's fault and And by the way, like this is one of those things where if he was talking about, you know, I got this one department and the two senior people in the department, they have a real. Then you start thinking, okay, well, you know, maybe they, maybe they got some ego and maybe you need a massage. They work through that. This is everyone. This is, we're talking about, you know, everyone that I'm interacting with doesn't listen to me.

They disrespect me. It continues on. People just refuse to even respectfully move out of the way when I'm trying to get around them. Not even strangers, people I live with. This statement First of all, why not move around other people, right? That's first of all. Second of all, you ever hear when someone says, oh, I was thinking about buying a Corvette?

And now everywhere I look I see corvettes. Yeah. And this is the same thing where he feels disrespected. Now, anytime anybody's in his way, it's there straight up disrespecting him. Yeah. Yes. continues on. I don't understand what it is about me that most people don't respect.

Everyone seems to have the attitude to defy or oppose everything I say, no matter the circumstance, whether I'm trying my best to lead, give advice, etc. People won't listen to me. They won't get behind me. I lack so much influence.

It's not funny. I try, but to no avail, what do you think? So here's what I think to this individual. Stop trying so hard. Stop trying so hard to lead. Stop trying so hard to influence.

Stop trying so hard to give advice to everybody. Leadership starts with following people. That's where leadership starts. I would say assessing what I'm reading that you lack real true confidence. Real true confidence you have some false bravado that makes you say it's obvious and I'm logical That's not real I think you lack and and the the lack of confidence comes through all over this thing and so does the over compensation So oddly enough let me tell you something Start training jiu jitsu

It's a strange thing to say right strange thing to say start lifting weights those are two things I'm gonna say start training jih Tzu start lifting weights Those are two things. I'm going to say, start training judis, start lifting weights. Why? Because you lack confidence. And those things will start to give you confidence. Start listening to people. Instead of always feeling like you need to give your two cents, start listening to people.

It actually takes confidence to listen. I write about that in leadership strategy and tactics. It takes extreme confidence to accept other people's ideas. That takes the highest level of confidence. And if you don't know that, then you're constantly trying to show that you don't need to listen to their ideas. So start listening to other people. Start trying to support their plans instead of trying to force your great ideas down everyone's throats. Because right now you don't have a relationship with anybody.

All you do is you're constantly outbound to people, do this, do that. It's always about you. So start following other people. Start supporting other people. It takes confidence. It takes true confidence to follow. It takes true confidence to support other people. And right now, you don't have that kind of confidence.

You don't have that kind of humility, and so you act arrogant. And that's that right there is probably why no one listens to you, because you act arrogant. So force yourself to be humble, force yourself to listen, force yourself to follow, and over time, you will start to be appreciated. And when people start to appreciate that, you and the way you behave, then people will start to listen to you. and then eventually you can, you will be followed by people. And all that right there starts off with you taking ownership of your shortfalls

instead of blaming everyone else. Because that's exactly what this whole thing is. And if you want to go through life blaming everyone else for everything that doesn't go your way, then you actually have no power over it. And you'll just continue in this situation for, Forever. But if you want actually take ownership of it, you can fix the shortfalls, which are yours. They're your shortfalls and then you can become eventually the leader that you want to be. Otherwise, you continue down this path of blaming everyone else, not changing yourself. And you will continue to be not listened to, not respected. This is like, this is an extreme case. Really? It's an extreme case. It's an extreme case. It's an extreme case and I I I really hope I mean I truly hope that this individual is really

listening yeah because the way that this individual feels about everyone else it's gonna be really remove jaco's an idiot yeah he John was another one of those people yeah won't listen to my logic yeah and and it's it makes that actually honestly it makes me sad it makes me sad to see someone in the state yeah it did does. Well, and I don't want to come off like, oh, this is an extreme case like I'm this like expert, but I will say that, I think we all are in the same boat. Did you just say that? Speaking of arrogance. Jeez. I think we're all in the same boat to say, we know what this is. Like, we know people like this all the time. Yeah. You ask like, you know, I'm not like,

disparaging fitness people at all, but you ever had an extreme fitness person where if you ate some bubble gum, they'd be like, you know much sugars in that bubble gum? The thing is, Brad, that's all true. All that facts, all those facts and logic and all this stuff. Oh, yeah. They're not going to land, though, because, bro. Okay, so I used to get into not arguments, but little things with my brother where he'd, every once in a while, he's not an extreme case, but every once in a while, he'll bust

out some debate stuff, you know, out of nowhere, right? Well, you know how someone will say something, and they're, they're just talking casually, and then you'll be like, hey, what you said there's not right. And all this stuff, right? Yeah, no one likes that. No one likes that. No one likes that. No matter how correct, no matter.

So what I wound up telling them to try to sum up the whole thing, I said, what you're saying is right, but what you're doing is wrong. And so it's like there's another level to it. You know, like all this facts and logic, whatever. You told that to your brother? Yes. Like when you, when you, when you, wait, you guys were in a debate of some kind?

No. Or you were just giving a general sort of overview of his existence. I was scolding him for getting people into debates. all the time. You know, like, if me and you were talking, he's listening. Like, there was this time, I think this was what prompted it where me and Terry were and we were just talking about kids, you know, just kind of raising kids and we're like doing this and this and he was sort of listening and kind of in the conversation, but I was talking

to him. And he was and we were talking about something. I forget exactly what it was, but something about like, oh, if you do this, this will create this response with a kid. And then we're like, hmm, but what if it had the reverse response or whatever? And then he chimed in with something like, oh, no, it would have this initial response. And I'm like, well, but it could stand a reason that, look, they might respond like this, you know, kind of just talking, though. Like, isn't it interesting kind of thing?

And then meanwhile, I'm talking to Terry, by the way. And facilitating Jade's comments, but I'm more talking to Terry. And then he interrupt then he goes, no, no, no, there's studies about this and that. And then I'm like, everyone's kind of like, pause and was like, oh, geez, he's really aggressive right now. He even said afterwards. He's like, I'm sorry, that it came off, whatever. He likes to do that. Oh, yeah, big time.

And that's why I wound up. When I say scolding, it's like, brother's your brother, so it's not even scolding. But nonetheless, it's, yeah, like what you're saying, regardless of what it is, like, if you have all these logic, irrefutable logic and facts and all this stuff, like, brother, that's all correct. But what you're doing is wrong. What, what, there's one thing that really bothers me about this is I actually know 100%, which I Just talked about not saying I know that an individual in this situation can turn it around

Yeah, so I know they can turn it around Yeah, there's a in leadership strategy and tactics. I have a section called Conform to Influence and it just talks about like hey basically what you just said you know When the fitness person's like hey, you should work out every day at four o'clock in the morning and people are like hey dude I'm not gonna listen to you because you're bar You're not barking at me. You know, I had this question at the muster in Australia from the female that was like, hey, I love health. I care about health. I'm working out every morning. I'm trying to get everyone motivated. I'm telling them that they shouldn't be eating what they're eating for lunch. I'm telling them they should come work out with me afterwards. And she's basically not part of the crew. Yeah. They're all just looking at her thinking just be quiet. And I said, why don't you form some relationships with the people so that they start to listen to you? So that's another kind of overlying tone. or underlying tone here is you don't have relationships with anybody. Why are they going to listen to anything that you say? Yeah. Form relationships with people.

How do you do that? You listen to them. You follow them. You support them. Yeah. That is, like you say that you can recover from it. And that, yeah, but it's not going to be the next day, man. In fact.

No, no, yeah, yeah, for sure. He's got a little campaign. He's got a campaign out of him. Yeah, big campaign. Because the same way that you look at the Corvette thing that you do, did and you're always seeing the Corvettes everywhere. And so it's like this kind of pattern of thought, right? Where now he looks at everyone as like, oh, I just can't wait.

Like it's almost like he's waiting for them, anticipating them to disrespect them or whatever. And that's just how. But it's a two-way street. People are now waiting for him to say some BS to them now. He's going to roll in the room and people are like, here comes whatever with this crap. Let me throw a hypothesis at you. The reason I think it might be a little not as hard as you think it would be is because I bet people don't really have these horrible feelings about them. I bet they're just

kind of like, you know what I mean? They're just kind of like, oh yeah. Like when they say, oh, you know, I don't, when they say to them, I don't think we're going to do it that way. He's thinking, she, they don't listen. And they're really just thinking, well, it seems like there's a problem with that. You know, it seems like that be a little logistically complicated, you know, and he doesn't hear that. He just hears they hate me and they don't listen to me. That is possible. So it might not be, you know, it's, I got, I get out. Sometimes you know well, I'm a female and the guys are thinking this or I'm a man. I'm working with these women and they're thinking that and I go you know who probably is thinking the most about being a man in that room? Yeah. You know who's probably thinking the most about being a woman? You know, I've been taught I've had female leaders come and brief me over and over again and I'm not thinking oh it's a woman. I'm going to see it from this perspective. No, are there some people that do that? Sure. But most people are like oh, what's what is she talking to? Yeah.

So there's a good chance that all that some of this is just in his head. It's some of it is just in his head and the person that's thinking about this the most is actually him. Yeah. It's possible. It's also possible that well I this this much I can promise you these people are not going home and thinking about him all night. Yeah. I can promise you that's not happening. Maybe two of them are yeah, yeah, but he's going home and thinking about them all day all night.

He's thinking about how much they disrespect him. How much. They're not thinking about that. They don't move out of his way. Somebody, you know, he walks down the hallway and wants to get into the, the, the, the, the freaking refrigerator room. And someone's in the way. And, you know, they kind of like, like, go first. Yeah.

They never think about that moment again. He's dwelling on it. Don't dwell on it, man. No one's thinking about it. Just be cool. Listen to other people. Be humble. That's rough.

To like if you if that's in your mind like people just won't even get out of my way when I'm trying to go around them. I'm like whoa bro that's like some sensitive like bro. That's where you're finding this. Right you're finding corvettes everywhere. You're finding corvettes everywhere you look as a corvette even corvettes that aren't corvettes start looking like corvettes. You know what I'm saying? You start seeing little fieroes. Yeah, fieroes. Remember looking like yes. Unfortunately.

You start looking like a corvettes. Yeah. brother and yeah the to me as far as me goes that's true but at the same time everyone could know this about this guy everyone could have this like notion of this guy that this is who this guy is already he's so annoying every little thing that I do he's he has some advice to make it different or better you know like even those guys you don't think about them when they're not there well Yeah, right? Even those guys.

Yeah. When they show up, you're like, oh, here comes Billy. Yeah, with this. And somebody named Bill, by the way, hit me up on social media. Why is all the bad guys named Bill? Okay, so let's say Darren. Darren thing. You know, you got a little Darren coming in.

You go, oh, here's Darren with his loud mouth. He's got his own ideas. Yeah. When Darren leaves, I'm not thinking about Darren. It's not driving me crazy. I'm not writing. I'm not taking a year. He took a year to formulate this email.

A year to formulate. So he's thinking about this all. the time for a year. Yeah. To try and articulate it the right way. Which, by the way, according to him, he did. He did articulate it the right way. He says, I've been working on asking you this question for over a year.

And this is the best way I think I can articulate it. This is it. The best way. Yeah. Yeah, man. It's all. Okay. So there's this.

I thought you were going to comment at least on the fact that I told him to start training in jiu jihitsu. Yeah. What? I have nothing to add. Yes, sir. Amen. Isn't it?

It's a real thing. Real thing. Help yourself confidence. Yeah. Hang around with some other people. Get choked out. Get choked out. Get arm locked.

Yeah. And maybe you're lifting weights. Yeah. And maybe you won't. Getting in shape. Maybe one of those results, one of the many results of that might be, but you won't be compelled to try to correct everybody everywhere you go. Like, okay.

So sometimes like, I want to say all the time, if people aren't asking for like advice, not all the time, sometimes it works. But if they're not asking for advice, he can. can't just unsolicited, be correcting people. How often are you walking around just standing by and hoping that everyone gives you advice on stuff? There's not a lot of people like that. Yeah, I mean, it's really rare.

But there is a time, okay, back to my brother, Jade. He was stuck in sand with his truck. On Koi. So he wasn't stuck stuck, but he was getting stuck. And we could all see him. He was kind of in the distance there. And he's starting to get stuck. And there's all kinds of techniques to get unstuck in.

sand, all kinds of techniques, right? But there's a protocol. It's pretty standard or whatever. So he's beginning to get stuck in. Our other friend, Richard, who is he the most tactful guy in the world? Sounds like a no. At every single moment of his life, maybe, maybe not. And at this particular moment, he wasn't.

So I see Richard walking over there about to go give Jade some advice on how to not get stuck, right? Is he qualified to give advice? And should Jade be taking advice at this point? Okay, well, that's another question. To me, if you're about to get stuck, if it really seems like you're about to get stuck and someone's going to offer you advice to not get stuck, yeah, I think logically, right, you should take the advice.

But we're dealing with the real world here. So Jade's about to get stuck. Jade has a protocol in his mind, right? He's not, like, unaware of this protocol, but he has it in his mind. But according to what seemed like, what it looked like was in Richard's mind, he didn't. So Richard's aggressively running over there, aggressively, going over there to give him some unsolicited advice, which he obviously needs, right?

And we can't hear it, any of the advice. We can't hear it. We only see the body movements, right? So you see, you know, aggressively Richard's telling him, whatever he's telling him with his hand movements and all this stuff. You know, Jade's like, no reaction. You know the kind of when you're real annoyed, but you have no reaction. You're just like kind of looking down or whatever. And he's like doing his own protocol.

Meanor, Richard's like coaching them aggressively, not landing at all, falling on deaf ears, as it were. And every time, it's like every maybe five, ten seconds, Richard would like turn around and throw his hands up as if to say, this guy's not listening to me. And he did that maybe three, four times, right? So you could tell it was not going good over there. So I'm like, all right, so we're all watching it, me, my other brother, and we're kind of laughing a little bit. Because we see the scenario. We see Jade getting stucker and stucker. And Richard, you know, we just see the whole thing.

line out. So later on, we kind of talk to Jay, kind of teasing them, right? Like, bro, why don't you just, just like listen or whatever? And he went into that side of the whole deal where it's like, man, you can't like, it's hard to listen when someone just like jumps in your whole stressful situation, offering you all this like whack advice in this whack kind of way. Yeah, there's ways to deliver advice in critical situations like that. And even then, most likely an indirect approach is advised. And that's if they, okay, in this situation to him, or it doesn't matter what it looked like to us. It looked, what it looked like to Richard is like,

oh, this car obviously needs my advice right now, obviously. In Jade's mind, he's like, I know I've done this before. So, so, so I had a conversation with somebody on EF online the other day. I was saying, look, in this situation, you, you should approach with an indirect approach. And then as I'm, I'm talking to her, I can see that she's not She's kind of annoyed and she actually was

Like a logic and facts based thing Look why can't I just say the logic and facts of what's going on And then have everyone just get on board with the program Was the kind of was the thought process right And I said you know I can see that this bothers you Because what you're saying from your perspective is look I know the facts It doesn't make any sense that I waste all this time trying to, you know, take this indirect approach to try and get someone to understand the fact so we can change the direction that we're going or adjust the plan accordingly.

That's just dumb. I said, I can see that on your face. Here's the thing. If you take a direct, which is why we're having this conversation, by the way, you take a direct approach and it doesn't work. So you don't adjust the plan. I'm suggesting you take an indirect approach, which will actually work. And yes, it will take a little more time up front, but the result will be positive.

So if Richard would have taken an indirect approach and walked over, and he would be, why should I have to tell Jade that? Why should I have to take, I could just tell him, hey, you need to put it reverse rocket or whatever advice he had to give him. If he would have gone over and said,

you know, uh, uh, Hey, do you, do you want me to tell you where your tires are at or something like that? Right, right. Just a nice,

just a little indirect. Jump on his team. Yeah, just jump on his team. And then all of a sudden, Jade's mind is open. All of a sudden, they're literally on the same team. Just by saying, hey, you want to put some weight on the front for you? Or, you know, whatever. Hey, you know, do you want me to throw some extra?

Whatever you do to get on the team. And then you're going to win in the end. And the indirect approach, which seems like a big pain in the ass out of the gate. Oh my God, I can't believe I have to do this and play this game. I have to play this game. Like yeah listen to what I'm talking to you about play the game because you will actually get accomplished what you want to have get accomplished As opposed to we know I'm just gonna I'm just gonna take a direct approach

Yeah tell them what's up people aren't ready to receive it and so it's useless Oh, it's so true like you and I'm thinking back to the tired getting stuck in the sand scenario to where and here's the thing to do it to make it matters worse like I you It's reasonable to assume that how Richard came up to him wasn't like, hey, like, we got a problem. Let's do this. It wasn't that. It was like, a dummy stuck in the sand, dummy. Like, you don't know what you're doing. Kind of, kind of the, I'm not sure what he said, but it seemed like that was the approach.

Right. Not only the direct approach, it was just openly hostile. It was openly hostile. So now you get immediate defensiveness. I'm not listening to anything you say. I would rather get stuck than listen to you. That was literally like what I feel. felt like it seems like jade right now would way rather get stuck and then listen to richard right now and

quite frankly i don't blame him the way richard was like throwing up his hands like oh my gosh you're so dumb kind of a kind of a thing like again i didn't hear what he said but that's what that's what his body language was saying i'll tell you that so man i kind of i felt him i felt him so yeah man let's hope that this guy here can actually listen to what we're saying i mean it in the most positive possible way. I think you can get out of this situation, but you got to take ownership of what's going on and you got to make some real changes. Hit us back up. Hit me back up on that. That'd be cool. I'd like to hear how it works out. There's one where you're a positive feedback. Jordan Peterson. I think it was on Joe Rogan so you know how they make those like Jordan Peterson

versus yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it what he said got was part of it. It got made into that, right? part of it. So he was like, he was like, everybody's rejecting you. Everybody's rejecting you. It's you. Right?

Kind of thing. And it's funny because it's like the tone that he said it. But that's kind of irrefutable logic right there. You know, where it's like, man, you're kind of like the girl. It's a joke, I think.

I'm pretty sure it's a joke. The girl who goes to the doctor and says, hey, like, my finger hurts or whatever. You know, like when I touch here, like my finger hurts or whatever. And then, the doctor goes, okay, the solution is don't touch there, you know, kind of thing.

Brother, that's like it's real obvious to people, you know. It's the tortured genius that Laf talks about in extreme ownership. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, look, I'm right and everyone else just doesn't see the brilliance of my, you know, what I'm doing. No one sees how brilliant I am. Yeah. No one sees how brilliant I am.

Yeah, they're too dumb. And yeah, it's just horrible for me. And it's like, no, actually, maybe you're not right. No, bro. At the very least, something's not right. At least your approach is wrong. Next question. Is it necessary to explain the why of what you're doing as a leader if you're not ever asked?

Why? My varsity athletes never question anything as I assume they either think that it'll be disrespectful or because they simply think they need to follow my directions. Yeah, they should absolutely know why. And people on your team do not need to ask you why for you to tell them. You should tell them why they're doing what they're doing. That way they can lead. That way they have a deeper understanding of what they're doing.

That way they know how to act and what to do when you're not there, which you won't always be there. And when you do that, they actually learn, they are actually learning how to lead themselves because they start to understand the importance of knowing why. So, you know, this happens to me. I mean, there's a lot of people that have worked for me over the years that I didn't need tell them why to do anything. Well, they were ready to rock and roll. Like, they did not care.

I mean, you think JP ever looked at me and said, hey, hey, sir, can you explain to me why you want me to do that? No, he's like, JP, machine gun nest, attack. He's attacking. Like, by the time I get out of my mouth, he's going. So there was no reason. He's never going to ask me why. You know, at least not back then.

You know, now that we work together all the time, if I'm like, hey, I think we should do this. He'd say, well, why do you want me to do that? because he's, you know, he's running FTCs and he knows what's going on more than I do. So if I tell him to do something or I ask him to do something, he might say, well, why do you want me to do that? What's the effect you're looking for?

So it's different now. But my point is, much like a varsity athlete, you know, that respects their coach and likes their coach and wants to do a good job, well, when JP was 21 years old, he wasn't asking me why to do anything. And, you know, for that matter, that was true for a lot of people that have worked for me,

over the years like they trust me and they don't they don't need to know why they're doing what they're doing they're gonna do it they're gonna do it to the best of their ability That doesn't mean that I don't tell them why Because I absolutely should because if you don't know why you're doing what you're doing you can't lead decentralized command doesn't work Can't make decisions in the field so even with football athletes it's cool that they're totally just on board But you should still tell them why because it's a good principle to follow in any leadership situation Yeah yeah especially as a coach too man that'll like super charge like the learning process I think or the training process like even like in

jiu-jitsu there's good examples like like hip escape or shrimping right you know when you first start or whatever if you're just doing it across the mat you're getting taught how to do it and all this stuff and you're kind of like like I don't really get why we're doing it good point right now you're gonna do it yeah you just do it because everyone else is doing it and what are you going to do a new martial arts class and you're going to start asking that's actually an excellent example is if you know why you're learning the hip escape then you do it with better intent. And no one could tell just by watching you do it, whether what your intent was or not,

even though they might get a little scent of your intent. But it's one of those situations. If you know why you're doing it, you're going to do it better. Just like if you're coaching football and you got guys running a certain thing, they're not going to ask you why. But if you tell them why, they know why they're doing it, they're going to do it better. Yeah, so true, the football thing. Because in football, you do kind of some oddball things. if you just see it on the surface.

You know, there's a thing called grass drills, right? Where you just basically you get your feet, like you kind of run in place real fast, like kind of a little bit wider stance. And then you like, basically you sprawl, you know, yeah. And, you know, you hit the ground, you get back up real quick and then you, and they do, there's all these drills you do, right?

They face the ball this way, then you turn and then you come back and you're chopping your feet the whole time, right? So on the surface, I remember when I was like little doing that, I remember thinking, oh, yeah, this is just like conditioning, really. like moving your whole body, conditioning, getting back up, but after a while you're like, nah,

because if you get knocked down, which you will, like, bro, football, you can get knocked down like three times within like 15 seconds, you know, like the faster you can get up

and start running again is like, bro, that's a good skill to have, you know, kind of thing. So if you're drilling that every single day, every single, every single day, not only do you get better and quicker at that, it becomes way more instinctual.

So, okay, then there's a lot more to it, obviously. But man, if someone was explaining that, to you every time you're doing it like even just yelling it out just calling it out as it's happening like good this is going to get you guys up quick when you get knocked down on a play you know just yelling it out who cares whatever you don't have to sit them down and say this is why you're doing

these guys you don't have to say that necessarily i'm saying in a football situation but if you're going through that training with that in your mind like oh i know why i'm doing this bro you're gonna you're gonna charge that thing and you know problem solve better while you're training yeah man it's yeah it goes deep on that one i used when i was coaching a lot of M.M.A. fighters. I would always be telling them why they're doing a drill. And it made me think of when you were saying, even if they're just yelling to you, you know, I'd be like, this is the end of the round. This is where you're going to, you know what I mean? Or if you're down here, this is where you're going to have to get back up. This is where the fight gets won. Like, you know, because, you know, some fighters, if they get taken down and they're a striker and they're going against a good grappler, if they get taken down, they're going to have to get back up. And so when they know that, you can see it compute in their brain. Whereas if I'm just saying, you get back up. Yeah. No. So tell people why.

What do you think? One more question. Sir, I've listened to all of the podcast before asking this question. Can you please explain how do you deal or have dealt with your insecurities? Thank you very much for your help. I guess broadly fundamentally, what I'm going to do with my insecurities is I'm going to confront them. I'm going to put them out there. I'm going to own them.

I'm going to own them. I'm going to own my insecurities. If I had to think of examples of situations where insecurities came into play for me, one, I was going through Bud's basic seal training, and there was an event called Pool Competency, where you are wearing your underwater breathing apparatus, your scuba gear, and they do all these horrible things to you.

And it's a very hard evolution. And I failed it. And I was confident going to, into because I kind of done well most of the water things underwater not tying life savings etc etc etc I had done well I was comfortable in the water and so I was a when I failed this thing which was which was I was freaked out you know and because people would fail pool comp and get kicked out of buds you know it's a nightmare for me so I fail and by the way if you fail so you You take it on Friday and then if you fail, you take it again on Monday.

And if you fail again, you're rolled back. And then once you rolled back, now you fail something else and you're gone. So it's a nightmare for me. I mean, I'm completely, I've gone from confidence to insecurity about this thing. So what did I do? Me and a couple of the other guys, I don't know why the instructors let us do this. They could probably get in trouble for it. But they let us take the scuba gear and use it in the dip tank,

which is just a big bucket full of, I mean a big container full of water, probably four feet deep. And it's probably eight feet long by four feet wide. So it's just a small, it's where you take fresh water and you put things to clean it. You put in fresh, we call it a dip tank.

So they let us fill the dip tank up with one, totally unsupervised. And we went in there, we pool comped each other. So we ripped each other's mass off. beat each other to hell and just trashed ourselves. And by the time I went on Monday, I was, that insecurity that I had was now gone because we had been so freaking harsh to each other that by the time I was rolling in there, I was like,

yeah, this isn't even insecure. I'm like, bring it. Go bring what you got. I'm ready. So that's a, that's one way to overcome or that I look at is something I was insecure, nervous about, right? How am I going to overcome it? I'm gonna attack it.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna go straight into that thing, into that insecurity. Another thing I was thinking about was kind of funny was, was like at a bar, you know, when I was young and single and whatever, hanging out,

you know, having some beverages. And I'm chatting with some girl that I met. And, you know, as we're talking, just kind of just talking, having a good time,

whatever. And she's like, oh, you know, what do you do? You know, what do you? Well, oh, I'm a dental hygienist. She's a dental hygienist. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And then she says like, something like, you know, we could take care of that gap in your teeth.

She says that to me. And like, without missing a beat, I'm like, oh, are you serious? I didn't know that you could expand gaps. How much bigger could you make it? And, you know. You know, like she was, she was like totally, I don't know if the word stoked, but she realized that this, whatever, you know,

this gap between my teeth, which some people might have as a big insecurity, like, oh, you know, cover your mouth. It was fine. Like, there it is. I'm making fun of it, basically. Yeah, yeah. So that's, I think that is the bottom line

when you have some kind of, in something that you're insecure about. Well, if it's something that you can, take control over, cool, then attack it and get good at it. You know, if you're, if you're insecure about talking in front of people, cool. Attack that problem and get better at it. If you're insecure about, you know, confrontations with people, start training jihitsu. If you're insecure, whatever, whatever you're insecure about, do it more. If you're insecure, if you think, every time I write an email, I feel like, you know, it looks like junk, cool, write more,

get better at writing. So there's insecurities that you have like that, that you can attack. If there's something that you can't change or that you can't control, then just get it out there and have fun with it as far as I'm concerned. You know? Yes, all right. Do. Does that make sense? Is that a bad answer? No, that's a good answer.

In fact, that's a very clever response to the dental hygienist. The dental hygienist wanting to fix the gap in my teeth. So I think that's good for questions. You know, and hey, it's interesting times right now. What is it? It's April 2020. A lot of mayhem going on in the world. Everything from, well, we got viruses, you know, and it's tornadoes and just all kinds of things.

And, you know, as I look at what's going on, it's just a gentle reminder to everybody and maybe a not so gentle reminder that the world is a hard. The world is a hard place and the world has no mercy. The world does not care. Nature does not care. Disease and disaster and viruses and violence. And this is the thing that you need to remember is that even time itself, even just time itself is picking you apart, picking you apart slowly every minute of every day. time is taking you down. And if you stare at that stuff long enough,

if you stare at those things long enough, then just like the sun, it'll blind you. And so I say don't stare at it. Don't stare at those things. Don't let them possess your brain. Don't let them take over your mind because just like the sun can blind you, the sun also,

the sun also gives us light, and it gives us warmth, and it gives us life, and those dreadful things in the world, they may win in the end. And I can actually guarantee that time will win in the end. But so in the meantime, make sure you live.

Make sure you give it everything you got. Make sure you leave it all on the field. and live your life not blinded by the sun, but fueled by it. All I've got for tonight. So, I'ma Charles. Speaking of fuel, I know we need some clean fuel for our undertakings. What is it? Clean fuel, no excuses.

Wait, there's something else to do, right? There is something else. All right, what is it, Jocko? Clean fuel. Clean fuel. No excuses. That's a good one. You're missing one, apparently.

All right. Well, we're going to revisit that last one another time. But in the meantime, what we can do is... You're probably forgetting the most important one. Maybe it's hard work. All right. Hard work. That's...

I don't know. Maybe I'm still new to that. Maybe that's why you are reaching. Yeah. On the last, yes. Hard work. Clean fuel. No excuses.

There you go. Origin USA. Mm-hmm. By the way, but before we need the clean fuel, we're going to do hard work, but it's better, in my opinion, to do hard work doing something that you enjoy. And that's going to benefit you, by the way. Explain why you're doing what you're doing. Something that gives you physical training, physical strength, physical stamina, and confidence. Yes, sir.

We're hoping that the homes goes out and starts training. We just get that confidence up. Capability across the board. Be more capable and increases your confidence. confidence. Yes, sir, big time. So we're training Jiu Jitsu. We're working out, working out, and training Jiu Jitsu.

Well, well, at this very moment, Jiu Jitsu is kept to a minimum. We'll say a minimum, really, which is the safe and right thing to do, by the way. Like, you'd think, like, that sounds debatable right now. You know, we did that podcast with Andy. We did a grounded podcast with Andy, and we, I forget when we recorded it. But, like, we were talking about Jiu Jitsu. and whatever and people like, you training is morally irresponsible and stuff.

Were you guys training? Well, we didn't. But I don't even remember what phase of, you know, all that was going on. But yeah, so the bottom line is, you are correct. Right now, jiu-jitsu training is kind of at a minimum. Yeah, big time. For everybody.

Yeah, and I don't want to get too into like what, you know, where we stand on like the whole thing or whatever, but there's like a big picture, small picture scenario going on in a short term and long term scenario kind of playing out like it always does. And like I think like if you're doing, okay, so what I'm Jee uses this term? Like falling on the right side of the fence of history

or something like that, right? Where, okay, we're trying, this thing, we're just, we're ready for it to be done this whole deal. It's quarantine, all this stuff. We're ready for it to be done. So there's certain things you can do and not do to kind of help facilitate the passing of this thing And then there's things that kind of don't help the facility this help facilitate the passing of these things And there's things you can do that halt the passing of this thing

Okay That jam us all up, right? Okay So the question is what are we doing? So trying to do things that are going to stop the Exactly right for yourself for everybody for everybody but you know the things like the short term long term Short term, you're going to have to take a hit short term. You know what I mean?

Small picture, jujitsu, and a bunch of other stuff or whatever. I think about jujitsu is getting better, even when I'm not training because I'm studying. Yeah, that's see. And there you go. Mental reps. Mitigating some stuff. But, you know, the thing is it's a two-sided situation that has to be like they're battling with each other. It's kind of whack.

It's a dichotomy. It's a dichotomy. Nonetheless, when we get back to jujitsu, if we weren't already in jujitsu and we're going to Start Jiu-Jitsu when we can. We're going to get a Ghee. We're going to get a rash guard. That's just sort of the uniform, really. Best Gie in the world, origin geese.

Yeah. Well, it's just so everyone knows, hey, look, we make Jiu-Jitsu geese. We make jeans. We make boots. Right at this moment in time, April 2020, we actually have shifted to making face coverings is the term, right? Because the president and the CDC and the government has said to wear face coverings so we started making face

coverings we actually shut down our other lines to make face coverings for people so that's what's going on right now at origin main.com we will get back to manufacturing jeans boots t-shirts of the whole nine yards there's still some stuff in stock as far as geese and stuff go but right now that's what we're focused on is trying to get help America get through the scenario that we're in right now now and so you can you can check out those masks if you want them we won't be making them for a long just because other people are starting to catch up and so we were able to pivot very quickly because we have the entire supply chain right there we own everything we make everything

there's no like we have everything in house so pete and the team at origin was able to really quickly start making these face coverings and so as other companies start to make Make them. We'll go back to making what we want to make. You know, no one wants to be in the business of making masks, right? But that's what the country needs. So that's what we're doing right now.

If you want to get one of those, yeah, you can get them at origin, mane.com. We're trying to make them as fast as we can. And so that's one way to help America get through this. They're not N95 masks, right? They're what we can make, which is face coverings, which is what is in demand.

You know, like I went to a meeting the other day on a construction site and you know what? You have to wear a face covering. Yeah. So what am I wearing? I'm wearing an origin face cover. That's what it's made for. It's not made for me to go and work in an ER.

No, it's made to show respect to someone else. Hey, look, I don't want to cough on you. I don't want if I have it, which no one knows if you have it or not because a lot of people are asymptomatic. So you wear this thing to protect the people around you. You know, strangers, normal people. And what you're doing there is you're going back to what you were saying earlier.

You are doing your best to halt the disease so we can get back to normalcy. So if you want one of these, go to origin, main.com, and you can get one there. Also, we have a bunch of supplements there. So if you're,

and I know this is a, you know, we've seen a huge spike in, like milk, right? Because people don't want to go to store. There's starting to be a shortage of food. If you get mold,

you know, if you get milk, which is good tasting protein. and we're selling a ton of milk right now because people know that it's a good thing to have, you know, in your house because you can feed your kids. You can feed you. I don't know. I don't know what to make the claim that, you know, however you long, you could survive on milk only, but it's a great. It's a great thing to have in your house as food suppliers are getting shut down because of the virus or whatever.

So we've been selling a ton of milk. We've been selling a lot of we sold out of Cold War, which is like an immune system booster. We just got it back in stock. So that's been selling like crazy because it's got, you know, it's got things that help boost your immune system. Again, is this a origin or is this a COVID fight destroyer? No, it's just going to help your immune system. So people don't want to get sick right now. So that's been selling a lot.

But that's what we're doing at origin right now. It's, you know, different. It's different times. What else? What am I missing? Yeah. I mean the supplements, you know, the joint warfare. That's one thing that's going on right now.

A lot of people are working out, you know, hardcore. You're going to need that joint warfare. Crill oil. So we got all that stuff still. But yeah, so if you want to check that stuff out, you can check that out. We're also like the, we're making some fitness equipment. You know, like plio boxes? Yeah.

We just started making plio boxes. Why? Look. our goal is not to make plio boxes here's the deal America is sold out of plio boxes right now and so people want them because they're shifting

to a home gym scenario so we just started manufacturing those so if you want to get a plio box you can go and we're doing what we can to help get through this situation we just made another thing which you saw the burden the burden

it's like an old No one's, it's, what was it? It's like a kettlebell slash Bulgarian bag slash medicine ball slash. Any other slashes? Old boxing glove? I don't know. Old boxing glove.

Yeah, so we got a thing called the burden, which you're going to be able to use for kettlebell exercises, but it's made a leather. It's badass looking. We got to admit. So, yeah. What do you can explain the history on now or the, you know? I mean, the long history is I have an idea. I had an idea, which I talked to Pete a while ago, we brainstormed of making something

called the burden, which was something you could just carry. We could just carry the burden with you all the time, right? So no matter what's happening, you carry the burden, you can put it in your backpack, you can put it in your briefcase, and you're constantly carrying around, you know, 20, 30 pounds worth of extra weight, which just makes you stronger. So, but, you know, it's, you know, do you go through a development process and you look at, you know, what, what resources do we want to put on doing this from the company? and right now again a bunch of people are saying they have to work at home now work out at home

and they can't because they don't have any equipment well how can we make good you know what can we make that would make it possible for people to work out at home better this is one of those things you know everybody wants I mean you the amount of it the amount of different workouts you can do with a kettlebell is phenomenal so this and kettlebells are you know sold out everywhere Bro, all gym equipment is sold out. Jim equipment everywhere is sold out. It's crazy because my wife's talking to her little groups and all this stuff. And everyone's asking her like, hey, do you guys have any extra weights?

And I'm like, why the heck is it? Like, why is everyone asking you this? Jennifer from kindergarten class asking about kettlebells. Because the gym's shut down. And they're like, hey, they know that we have a bunch of weights or whatever. But it was crazy how many people were asking us. Like, hey, do you have any extra? My neighbor's like, hey, do you have any extra weights?

You have any extra weights. Unfortunately, I don't have any extra weights. Like I use literally like every, I have two day work like the workout programs one day, one day two and they just repeat. So I use all my weights, all of them. There's literally two weight weights that I don't use. And yeah, sure enough, they just came and grabbed them or whatever. So it's like, man, yes. So they need that the burden stuff where you can go online and get them.

Yeah. So that's the thing is, well, it'll ship with no weight in it. Like you'll fill it with shot with stuff. with steel bearings or lead shot or whatever, you know, sand or rocks, depending on how heavy you want it. But yeah, the bottom line is we're very lucky. We're very lucky because not, I don't want to just call it luck, but to have the capability to own the supply chain and be able to make things that

all of a sudden are in demand. Like there's not too many people that can pivot and go from, manufacturing boots because it's all in America. It's all under one roof. Hey, we can make these and we can make them starting in a day or two days. And that's exactly what we're doing is trying to give people what they need during this crisis. And it's been great so far. So if you guys want to check that stuff out, if you need a plow box at your house and or if you need a burden to carry, you can check that out.

masks, whatever, they're there as well. And then all the different, all the different supplements are there. So appreciate the support. And if you want, if you guys have ideas or whatever, you see a demand for something, let us know because that's what we're doing. We're, we're trying to help. Look, obviously, we want to get back just like anyone else, everyone else. We want to get back to making jeans, boots and geese. That's what we want to make.

And shorts and T-shirts and everything else. But when there's a when there's a need, we we have to try and help, you know, get through this. So. Okay. Also, we have a store, jocco store.com. It's online store. We're, you know, on Amazon, they're, they only ship certain items quicker now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you buy stuff through Amazon, it can take like a month, four weeks, you know. Yeah. What's interesting about that is for origin supplements on Amazon, those are in the category of getting shipped like immediately. Essentially. That's good. Yeah. It's, you know,

they looked at the products that we make and the, the health items and that just put us in the category. So if you want to get Mulk, if you want to get joint warfare, if you want to get Cold War, you can get it from Amazon right now and it's on that list of stuff that's considered essential, which is awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And yeah, that is. You know, what I did was when I, I was going through the list with,

uh, with Jeff and just pointed out some of the things that we, had that I thought America needed. Sure. There you go. Me and B's else, we go way back. Yeah, yeah, good relationship building there. Wow, that was a really bad attempt at a joke.

I respect it. Nonetheless, good news is, Jocco Store, is, okay, is your get after it, Discipline Equals Freedom shirt or hoodie? Like, is that an essential item? Yeah, maybe, we'll just say it's debatable. I don't know. It depends on who you are. I'm not going to make some crude kind of comparison,

but, you know, look, there's no answer for that. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I don't know. I'm not going to claim I know with my irrefutable logic or nothing like this. But we are shipping normal. You don't have to wait the four weeks, normal shipping. You know, maybe some here and there if there's like a big influx or whatever because of like, you know, the staffing and stuff.

But shipping is normal, so that's good news. Anyway, jocococor.com, that's where you can get your Disciplining, I'm gonna street them shirts, hoodies. Rash cards, if you, hey, get a rash card, man. I think we have some still, but be cool on the jiu-jitsu just for now. Just be careful with it. Be careful with what we're doing. Nonetheless.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yes. You're putting forth a positive message. Yes. Got it. On both. But do you wear a rash card when you just lift? I don't.

No, but I'm not against it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, like rings and stuff. Rings for sure. Rings for sure. Like that little bit of compression. Yeah. And also the protection.

Yeah. Of your arms. Because when you're doing a lot of, let's say, muscle ups or you're doing a lot of dips or ring pushups, you can get the chafing on your outer arm. Yeah. I can dig it. So, yeah, keep that in mind for sure. But yeah, all cool stuff on there, I think.

So, yeah, if you want something, get something. We'll get it to you. Also, subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't already on iTunes or Stitch or Google Play, wherever you listen to iTunes. Is it essential? I think so nowadays, because let's face it, man, we're just doing less. You know, we're at the house more.

All the stuff like good consumable stuff, good consumable stuff, podcast, books, audio, or otherwise. Like, there's going to be more of that. I think that's good. That helps us through this scenario. So subscribe to the podcast is what Echo's saying in a really long roundabout way, which is fine. I mean, I guess we're on quarantine. We've got plenty of time. I'm relating to the end degree that no one cares about, but it's all good.

Hey, we just started another podcast called The Thread. It is myself and Daryl Cooper of Martyr Made fame. Is he famous? Yes. Okay. So, Darrell Cooper and I, he was on the last podcast, and the podcast of the thread is launched. We also have grounded podcast where we talk about life and jujitsu. Sure.

And everything in between. And then we got the Warrior Kid podcast, which you may have missed a release of Johnny Kim on the Warrior Kid podcast. So go check that out. And also when you're talking about Warrior Kids, don't forget to check out IrishoaksRanch.com where Aiden, a warrior kid, is making soap.

Making killer soap. And that's the name of the soap. Making killer soap. So that America can stay clean. Yep. Also YouTube we have a YouTube channel wash your hands right wash your hands. That's the big deal right now. Wash your hands. So get yourself some you know some warrior kid soap some some killer soap. Yeah kill the germs man. Yeah. Kill the virus. Is that I heard that soap kills. Yeah. They're saying soap just like soap kills the virus. Yeah. Wash it off maybe. I don't know. I think it kills well because the virus can't live without a sustainable what habitat right? It's like one of those things. situations. Okay, look, I'm no germologist, biological expert, nothing like this. But from what I understand, the virus can live only for a certain amount of time on surfaces, because it can't eat

nothing, right? Can't live. It's a virus, bro. I don't think it's eating. Oh, it's eating stuff. If it's living, it's eating. Trust me. Nonetheless, if it's cruising on the table, then we're already looking. Impossible for me. But nonetheless, we have a YouTube channel, video version of this podcast. and excerpts. Yes. Enhanced and otherwise. Yes. Little excerpts help you through the day, through the times, through situations that may arise.

Scenarios? Scenarios all day for sure. But yeah, YouTube channel, Jocco Podcasts, YouTube channel. All good. Yeah. And the excerpts have been getting, let's just say, give you a little credit here. They've been getting a little bit better lately. Cool.

Not the enhanced ones because I haven't seen one of those in a while because I know you've been busy doing other things. Damn. Yeah. Psychological warfare, you can get that. The little psychological hitter to help you get through moments of weakness. That's the artist, formerly known as Jocka Willink on iTunes on MP3, whatever. Flipside Canvas messages for you in graphic form made by Dakota Meyer. You can check that out.

Flipside Canvas.com got a bunch of books, leadership strategy and tactics. Way of the Warrior Kids, one, two, and three. Mikey and the Dragons. Discipline equals freedom, field manual, extreme ownership, dichotomy, leadership, all kinds of good books for you to check out. We got Eshlamfront, Leadership Consultancy, where we solve problems through leadership.

Go to eshalomfront.com for details on that. We've got EF Online, which has been revamped, reformulated, according to Echo Charles. Live, that's what it is. Live. Interactive. It is myself. It is Leif Babin.

the entire echelon front team on there virtually we're doing online live three times a week right now live Q&As so if you want to ask me a question go to eFonline.com we got the leadership primer we got the forum we got the Q&A we got immediate action drills we got all kinds of stuff to help you lead and this is the type of time right now where there's mayhem going on leadership is what is needed so check out EF Online.com. It's, it's, it's awesome. I think it's going to be the platform that becomes the premier way for people to get help

in leadership in the world. And I know that's a bold statement. I'm making it. Also, we got the musters. Orlando canceled. So that means next up, Phoenix, Arizona, September 16th and 17th, Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th. Go to extreme ownership.com for details.

Look, we've sold out everything we've ever done. We actually canceled a show and a lot of the people that canceled Orlando moved over to Dallas and or Phoenix. So we're going to fill out. We're going to sell out faster than normal. So if you want to come, Extreme Ownership.com. And then EF. Overwatch, which has executive leadership. It's our placement firm where we take leaders that understand the principles we talk about and we place them into companies.

We also have that's for executive leadership. For frontline leadership. We got EFlegin.com. Look, we are getting, I know it's financial troubles right now with a lot of companies. There's also a lot of companies that have a massive demand. And we are getting hit up to have, for employees, people that want to hire. So if you're a veteran, go to EFlegin.com and sign up so we can get you connected with people that are looking to hire. and if you haven't had enough of my head-splitting, garish, overly aggressive voice,

or you haven't had enough of Echo's random, semi-coherent postulations, then you can tune in to us and connect with us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on G. Facey Bulk. Echo Charles is at. Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. Into all of you that are overseas right now in uniform, keeping evil at bay during these troubled times.

Thanks for what you're doing into police law enforcement. Firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service. Thank you for keeping us safe on the home front. And special thanks to all the doctors, nurses, and all medical personnel. that are on the front lines every day right now. You're out there risking your health to keep the illness, the virus at bay.

So thank you for your courage and sacrifice. And everyone else out there, life is not perfect. And it isn't going to be easy, but it is all you've got. So make it a good run. And make sure you enjoy the jam. And you do that by getting out there every day and getting after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.