Jocko Podcast - 259: When the Call Comes, You Go. w/ South Vietnamese Kingbee Pilot, Capt Nguyen Quy An

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

0:00:00 - Opening0:16:38 - Captain An1:55:58 - How to stay on THE PATH.2:13:34 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 259 with me, Jocko Willink. The A1E's arrived just as the team started taking incoming mortar fire. Godwin quickly calculated the coordinates for the mortar's location and the information was passed on to Covey, who in turn related to the A1E's. A laconic whistling voice came back down the line. It's crispy critter time, so y'all keep your heads down. Within seconds, the area in front of the team exploded into flame. The deadly napalm coating everything in its erupting path.

Flaming NVA soldiers ran briefly toward the team before falling to the ground and agonizing death throws. The hand grenades and ammunition they carried cooking off like firecrackers. Unfortunately, the elephant grass was also set on fire. The napalm had definitely slowed the NVA advance, but it had not stopped it. Covey reported that extraction choppers were five minutes out and the team needed to move fast. two gunships from the seventh air cab roared over the LZ. Watkins put out two bright orange marker panels and the gunships confirmed they had the team in sight. As they loop back to make their first strafing run, the gunships reported that a large enemy force was moving toward the LZ and they were going to attempt to discourage it.

As they made their run pouring M60 machine gun fire and rockets into the enemy R.T. Lion could see the air filled with green, racing, hitting the helicopters. They were taking a vicious beating, but they hung in there and kept pouring fire down on the NVA. It was an incredible show of raw guts and determination. Covey came on the radio to say the gunships had taken casualties and were leaking fuel, oil, hydraulic fluid, and just about everything else. So they were being forced to head home, but the extraction slicks were on station. R.T. Lion looked around and could see its salvation coming toward it on its nose. Although they were flying at a good clip, it appeared as if they were moving at an agonizingly slow speed.

As with the gunships before them, they were taking a horrendous amount of fire. One chopper was hit badly and began losing fuel. After a brief confab, the rescue package suddenly broke off its approach and headed back the way it had come, leaving nothing but smoke and RT Lions hopes for rescue behind. When Watkins asked Covey what this meant in terms of time on the ground, all Hartness could do was say that he'd contact the S3 and ask for a new set of extraction assets ASAP. In the meantime, he promised to get more tactical air support over the team and do all he could to keep them alive. While Watkins appreciated the sentiments, this did not do much to raise his spirits. In his heart of hearts, he felt the team's position was precarious and likely to get much worse and quickly.

The NVA had literally thousands of men it could throw at the team while the team had only so much ammunition and not much by way of cover. What he told his team members, however, was that there was going to be a slight delay and reminded them to keep vigilant and be ready for an attack. What he didn't have the heart to tell them was it could be hours before another rescue attempt was made. Their stay at Oscar 8 was far from over. One of the bruce suddenly signaled that NVA troops were crawling toward the team through

the elephant grass. The news was passed on to Covey who responded that he had two A1E standing by, one loaded with CBUs and the other with rockets. Both aircraft had their deadly 20 millimeter cannons locked and loaded. Watkins told Covey to bring in the CBO as fast as possible and to lay it down as close to the team as they could get. In less than two minutes, the team saw an A1E appear in front of their position. 20 millimeter cannons roaring away.

It flew so low they could see the pilot turn his head to locate the team as he released his ordinance. Unfortunately, some of the mini bombs exploded so close to RT Lion that two brew received light wounds. This was distressing, but Watkins consider it one of the acceptable prices a recon team paid to keep from being overrun by a superior force. As the A1E's departed a small group of NVA, suddenly, He only rose up out of the grass behind the team and charged them, AK-47s blazing on full automatic.

DeSetta, his red communist star facing forward, rose up and opened fire at near point-blank range. The brood joined in as other groups of NVA popped up from the elephant grass and attempted assault after assault. What followed was several hours of deadly cat and mouse, with the mouse hunkered down in its little hole and the NVA cat, making paw swipe after paw swipe and attempt to claw it out or do it in. An ironic situation for the team to find itself in.

While RT Lion fended off attacks, Covey directed airstrike after airstrike at the NVA troops, the storage area, the anti-aircraft guns, and anything else he could draw a bead on. Throughout the day, primary and secondary explosions followed one

another as the strikes found their mark. Whatever the team's fate might turn out to be the NBA were paying a hellacious price for messing with it With daylight ammunition and ideas running out It was like a true message from God when Watkins heard Covey report that South Vietnamese Air Force 219th Special Operation Squadron had one of its legendary King Bees en route For once, Watkins spirits actually rose not that he didn't love the living daylights out of the seventh air cave, but the Vietnamese of the 219th had time after time after time

proven themselves to be about the most daring, most imaginative, most aggressive, and all-around finest pilots on the face of the globe. If RT Lion had any chance of getting out of this hellhole, a King B pilot was the one who would find it and exploit it no matter how slight the chance was or how deadly the odds. That was simply what they were pledged and committed to doing day after day. More good news followed when Covey relayed that the lone king bee would be escorted by Marine gunships from HML 367,

a bad bunch of flyers that went by the code named Scarface. Things were definitely going to rock and roll with them on station. Scarface enjoyed nothing more than kicking NBA. but and taking names and then coming back around to kick more butt just for good measure. On general principle and for the sheer fun of it. However, Covey splashed a healthy dose of cold water on Watkins by reminding him it was very nearly dark and that despite all the bombs dropped, rockets fired, and gun runs made, the enemy was still pumping out an enormous amount of fire and still moving forward.

Pulling R.T. Lion out of Oscar 8 was going to be as difficult and dangerous and extraction as could be imagined. And they would have just one chance to pull it off. If they muffed it, R.T. Lyon would be spending the night and would most likely not see the next morning. Sobering information indeed, but Watkins did not want to discourage his team, so he just gave them his best grin and said, let's get ready to go.

In the distance, Watkins could hear the distinctive sound of the old nine-piston, Sikorsky, H-34, Kingby, chugging its way along. a steady base note to the higher wop, wop, wop of the hughies. He squinted into the twilight, and when he could finally make out their dim silhouettes, he flashed his strobe through the barrel of an M79 grenade launcher so as to mask it from enemy sight. The helicopters acknowledged having R.T. Lyons mark,

and the hughies immediately divided and made a split run, one raking the team's forward perimeter with rockets and machine gun fire, and the other working its rear. It was a beautiful show. Watkins yelled over the noise to blow all the claymores. By setting off all the claymores at once, he hoped to avoid having any uninvited NBA joined the team. They went off in a deafening blast and blinding flash.

The little mouse had roared. As the Scarface duo looped around to make their second final run, they confirmed there were dozens of dead and dying NBA scattered around within feet of the bomb crater. Unfortunately, they also saw more troops advancing. It was down to the short strokes. As the Scarface gunships began their last pass, the King Bee tucked itself in behind them and came roaring on. But rather than sat down outside the crater and have the team come to him, as Watkins fully expected, the pilot pulled up and hovered over the crater.

As the team looked up in disbelief, the old H-34 Warbird began gently settling itself down toward the team like a mother hen about to cover her chicks. thus also decreasing the silhouette to enemy troops. By the light of the burning elephant grass, Watkins was able to see into the King Bee's cockpit and was startled to find the co-pilot seat empty. In the pilot seat was his much-admired friend, Captain On, a man who had saved Watkins' bacon on many other occasions, but none quite like what he faced here at Oscar 8. Captain On lowered his King B toward the team with a precision and steadiness that gave an entirely new meaning to the word, cool. His face was smooth and calm, but there was steel in his eyes as he worked both feet and hands to maneuver the chopper as close to RT line as he could.

At one point, Watkins could have sworn that Ahn nodded to him, as if in a casual greeting. The whole scene bordered on surrealistic. What would the LZ lit by a flickering brushfire, the sounds of gunfire, and excitement. The smell of cordite and burned human flesh and this improbable savior Hovering above as Watkins had experienced before the action took on a dreamlike quality sounds faded as if someone had turned down the volume the air thickened Movement appeared to be in slow motion and the brain snapped individual frames that would never ever be forgotten the looks of fear or pain on their faces bodies being blasted backward a piece of someone on the ground a scrap of cloth one own hand clutching a weapon or shaking wildly as it tries to execute some simple well-rehearsed but now impossibly difficult task.

This is what war looks like to a mind under stress. Watkins could hear small arms fire thumping into the King Bee's body as he fully expected that at any moment it would either pull up and exit or come crashing down on them. But it did neither. It settled into a stationary hover, its front wheels placed delicately inside the crater. and there it sat an unbelievable vision a heroic portrait of an old warrior taking a pounding but refusing to falter Watkins de Sada and Godwin began heaving the brew into the chopper godwin followed Deseta after taking an anxious look at his team leader was next his bright red star pointed over his

right ear as if he wasn't quite sure whether he wanted to be going or staying finally in accordance with that time-honored tradition, the one-zero's feet were the last to leave the killing ground of Oscar 8. With the door gunner and team pouring small arms fire and M-79 rounds into the perimeter beyond its rim, the King B lifted up and out of the crater. As a last defiant gesture, Watkins threw a red smoke grenade onto the LZ. This gesture was universally understood by everyone who supported SOG to signal that the team was safely out, the LZ clear, and everyone else was free to pound the living daylights out of it.

But RT Line was not home free, not yet at least. Anti-aircraft rounds were bursting around them like a World War II ACAC fire. Captain Ahn was dipping and juking in an effort to dodge the bursts and make himself harder to track. He still looked calm, cool, and collected as if he were making a routine flight. for these guys thought Watkins maybe this was a routine flight when the King B touched down a case on de Sada Godwin and the grinning door gunner walked around poking their fingers into bullet holes and counting them but they soon gave up there were too many and besides it was just too unsettling unsettling to contemplate what might have been Watkins learned later that Captain

on had chosen to fly solo in the Oscar 8 because he knew exactly how dangerous this mission was. He'd lost King Bees there before and was determined not to risk more lives than necessary. He figured if the gods ordained that his ship go down while trying to save R.T. Lion, it would just be him and the door gunner. It seemed like a simple and perfectly logical decision. No big deal. incredibly everyone who participated in the mission was alive and well the men of r t lion were home seasoned veterans of oscar eight it had indeed been their time after all so that is that is a whole

different kind of heroism because look when you're on the ground in many cases you don't even have a choice but to be a hero. You either step up or you die. But for these pilots, men like Captain On, they don't really have to do anything heroic. They could easily say that the landing zone's too hot or they've already been shot or they're low on fuel or whatever. But they're safe in their aircraft and they see the hell that is going on and they see the hell that they are going into. bullets and rockets and anti-aircraft and they go anyway they go anyway men like captain Nguyen Ki-on a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force who flew countless missions insanely

dangerous missions in support of American and South Vietnamese SOG teams he's a recipient of the Silver Star and the Distinguished Flying Cross and it is It is an absolute honor to have Captain On with us here to talk about his experiencing, fighting in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. Captain On, it's an absolute honor to have you here. Thank you. And I guess also joining us once again is John Stryker Meyer, Tilt, Special Forces member of SOG, who has been on this podcast before?

A couple times. couple times 180 181 182 186 with the Frenchman 247 248 and the last one with Cowboy con 258 back again thank you so much and and when you first came on after the first couple times people started asking almost immediately to if if I could find a King B pilot and I know as soon as you know you very quickly mentioned Captain Aunt. Always. Number one, Kingby. For sure. Thank you. So, so, on, tell us about what it was like growing up. Where did you grow up? I was grow up at Hanoi, not of Vietnam. And my father decided to move the family to the South in 1954. Now was that after the French got beat?

Yeah. So did your father come? to recognize that bad things could happen? Yes. And what did your father do for a living? You mean before 55? Yeah. He has some kind of business to cut the lumber. Like a lumber.

Okay. And he had people to do it, but he organized the office. And after 54, we moved down to the south. and he worked for one of the French company. Oh, he worked for a French company? Yeah. Oh, okay. After 14, 54, when we moved to the south.

Okay. And what did you do? How old were you when you moved to the south? Oh, I was 11. 11 years old. Yeah. And my father sent my cell and my brother, my younger brother at that time he was 10. and to pride with one of the friends to the south.

Now, did you have any understanding of what was happening with the communists in North Vietnam? Did you have any understanding of that yet? Oh, before we go to, we went to the south. Then I remember, at night, I sleep next to my father, and he was,

criticism which he means because my eldest brother was killed in 45 when he was 17 okay yeah by the communists by the communists yeah so once you got down to South Vietnam now you're 11 years old and what did you did you were you just going to school Yes, I did. And since we moved around all the time from Hanoi to High Fong and then go to the south. And myself and my brother next to me, we all try to make too great in one year. You try to make what in one year? Too great. Okay. Were you able to do it?

Yeah, we did. Nice. Nice. And in 62, I joined the Air Force. And my brother, he got a scholarship from Yusam, and he went here too. So 1962 is when you joined the Air Force. Yes. And once you joined the Air Force, did you know you were going to be a pilot?

Yes. Okay. But I didn't believe it. be because I couldn't ride the car, couldn't ride air, train, even an airbrain, a bus, because every time I got in the car, my stowbring come up in my mouth. He was a car sick. Truck sick, train sick, every sick here we get. Yeah, that's not fun.

But eventually you were able to get over that? Yes. The first time my IP, he demonstrated the engine quit all the oral rotation. And I thought, I feel my snowmets come up. Oh my God, how can fly. But later on, I get used with it. Right. And I like it.

I know that they have something for American pilots. And I don't know if they made you do this. They have something where if you get air sickness, they have something, I think it's in Texas. It's called spin and puke. And they basically put you in this machine every day and it spins you around and makes you sick until you get used to it. Really? Yep. Yep.

So I guess you didn't do that. No. You didn't have to go to the spin and puke. One auto rotation helped. So how long were you in the Air Force before you started training to become a pilot? When I joined in the Air Force in late 62 and formerly it was on January 1st of 63. Okay. And I would have the military training in Nia Chang and also the ESL for six months.

in in July 63. I was sent here to get a training. So you came to America. Yeah, and got the ESL again training in English training. Yep. In San Antonio. Okay.

Yeah. So you go to San Antonio to first to learn how to speak English? Oh, in Vietnam. Oh, okay. When I got the military training and the ESL English training for six months. And then I went to the San Antonio, Texas,

about another four months for ESL, English, in Greece. After that, I went to four waters in Texas. Okay. And what was four waters for? For the primary healthcare training. Okay It's the H-23

The S-23 chipper H-23 chopper Small and ugly That's like the That's like the bubble canopy, right? Similar to that, yes Yeah Different variation

Yeah It's the old one And then So how long did you spend in America Training to Fly? From From The

First training I got the advanced training on the 8th 23, too. And then after I finished it, I went to Alabama to get the training on the 8-34. The King Bee. And what was your first impression of the King Bee? It was big. Because from 823 is a small one.

Tiny. Yeah, tiny one. And when I finished the training on the 8-34, I was thankful to get the training on the Huey. At that time, they only have the, at the school, they only have the A model. It's a small one. The A model Huey?

Yeah. What did you like better? What did you like better, the Huey or the King B? It's the Kimme. Because the King had about, at that time, have about 1,050,100 horsepower. Okay. But the Hewai,

A model have only 900 horsepower. But the Huey's a lot smaller than the King B. Yes, it is smaller. But did you feel like you had more power in the King B? No. No? Because it's too easy. Too easy to fly, right?

But that one. Because on the 834, I got total about 100 hours. How many hours? 100 hours 100 hours yeah wow total and

but on the heway I only get a nine nine hours okay and the pilot the captain pilot

who checked me he said okay you can stay home you don't need to fly anymore you stay home

so he can have more time to tell other people got it other people didn't learn as quickly as he did got it

so I would off for one week and let's go around so then so is that is that what you got trained in you completed all that training and then it was going back to Vietnam yes in 64 around around Zulae 64 so in 64 America's there but not super heavy engaged in combat operations yet not yet what was it like when you got back were you were you starting to anticipate? Was it starting to seem like there was going to be a broader war being fought there?

Don't forget in June of 1964, Roger Donlon earned the first Medal of Honor at a Greenbury A camp. So there were major battles at the A camps at that level. And of course, the Kingbees, even then were supporting some of the A camps. So that was the beginning of that war at a serious level. And yes, we didn't get the American troops involved to Hydranic Valley, but they began to build up when the Marines came into Danang.

So he was all part of that. What year did the Marines come into Danang? It was 64, I think. 64, 65. Yeah, because it's always, Idang in 65, that's sort of, in my mind, marks the beginning of like heavy American combat operations. Yes, that's a formal battle between American first cab

and the NBA. But, yeah, definitely. Prior to that, it was advisors in there working by with and through the locals. Right. And yeah. So you are seeing all that happen. You're seeing that start to unfold. Were you, at what point did you start flying the King Bs in support of special operations?

When I first came back from the US training, I was assigned to the 2017 squadron. And the two 17th squad in first station at Saigon. And in 60, later 65, was moved to Canter in the south. And in February, 1996, I was assigned to the 803 group. This is the group that combined face swing and helicopter to override the secret mission. And later on, the helicopter group became 219. But the group of the helicopter group in the 83rd Space Group have only four helicopters. But when we became the 219, we have 24 of them.

Did you know what you were getting into? Yeah. With those kinds of... I like it. And, of course, he's very modest. The first two years, basically, from when he went to that first to 217th, the commander of that unit didn't like North Vietnamese. So he was only a co-pilot.

But he fly co-pilot. He gets very bored. He wants more action. So he finally gets to bequest, and then he goes and gets the action. So once you started doing that, what was that like? What was it like to start going out on those operations where there was all this incredible intensity on the ground? Oh, I think he's more excited in a normal squadron. Yeah, I'd say it's probably more exciting than a normal squadron.

Oh, deep. What was it, what was the, what was the operational pace like? How often were you getting called to fly? What would happen? Would you be on standby waiting to go extract people? Would you sit and plan with the guys from SOG so you all were working together? How did all that work? Everything, it worked like that.

Because they had a rotation, like one week, they would be on assignment. one week they'd be training and another week they'd be getting ready and then one week or so they'd be on a side they could be up at Fubai then they go down to contum wherever the most depending on the weather

what missions were up so would Saga ground guys go and you know would you sit down and say okay here's where we're going to insert they would get the op order and they would be in for their briefing prior to watch before that we went on to the operation that we held the briefing

what we are going to do what to do and where we are going to work. But since I was so familiar with the whole border from from Kha Seindau to Precu, the whole border around the Hojim Trail, I'm so familiar that I just hear, well, I don't need to bring back. You were that familiar with it.

Yeah. And here's another king, during those briefings, When they're there as a one zero, the Kingbees, as we went further into the war, their briefing would say, we found 23 mic-mic-mic here, 37-mic-mike-ante-aircraft weaponry in those targets. So they would tell the Covey, and their expertise would be another bonus that we had in terms of our briefing, where not to fly. That's one of the briefing parts. So it's like we hear what the mission was, get that from S3, but we'd always hear from them,

then the Covey after that. Oh yeah So you'd be flying Basically some kind of combat mission Every day or two days Three days at the most Or sometimes in one day We are approved three missions

Each mission Last time Last time Yeah see that's what's cool about Being a pilot, right? Two hours You know two hours and you're done If you live to come home

You're fine If you live to come home You're doing all right You're back eating good chow and drinking a cold beer. Indeed. So how long did it take before you finally ended up getting shot down? Ooh.

Like when did, I know you ended up getting shot down. How long were you flying for before you got shot down for the first time? Over four years. First time, that's a, in, sometime in 67 or 66, I don't remember. Because I was shot down four times. You were shot down four times. Yeah. And I don't even remember which day would have.

Except the last time I lost my hand. Remember that. Yeah. The first time you got shot, you don't really remember what happened the first time you got shot down? Oh. The first time I was shot down was in south of the Marble Mountain. And in the morning we're supposed to take the, the platoon to make the security line

south of the mountain. Marble Mountain, right where F-O-B-4 was. So this is the in-country mission, and they're picking up a battalion to put it on the south side of Marble Mountain because F-O-B-4 was on the north side. And they were having some issues. They put the battalion out there for security purposes to work along with the Marines at that point.

And so 7 o'clock in the morning, South Vietnam, he gets shot down. Yeah. I went out at 6 o'clock and insult the majority of the troop

and when the second king became the land and he said that he got the ground fine and I told him remember which way

and I come back to mountain pick up more people and then land again and ask him which which direction is that he said two o'clock and I take up and had to two or a couple of direction and I saw a line of people was moving with the only woman and she got a kid and with the you remember the two basket that they carry yes yeah and I I told

the cruise ship, all the people, civilian people, don't shoot. And as long as I finished it, I heard a long fire from that, from that life, from that people, from those people. And the engine just quit. And I make it cross to a ride spaghetti. And the third shopper, the term that came down to pick me up and bring me back to Danang.

And at 9 o'clock, I go out again to take that chopper back. And we took that shopper back. The mechanics, they couldn't find any round. So, they keep asking them. They keep asking me, tell them, tell them, what happened? What will happen? If we couldn't find any route, then it must be the technical problem. And I said, yes, I did.

I heard the route, I heard the fire. And later in the afternoon, one of the mechanics ships, he was he opened the front door for the door of the of the engine and he looked around and suddenly he he he saw the the the lid the cap of the magneto there was a hole in there oh so that was it and he was wondering why this is there is a hole in there is a hole in there is a hole in there why the people didn't change it. So he called the mechanic and opened it. Oh, my bullet was in there.

And that makes all the igniter. Wow. Yeah. So you would go back out and you went back out and recovered that aircraft? Yeah. Would you tie straps onto it and bring it back or how would you do it? I go out and we did to show them how to bring the aircraft. bring the downed aircraft back.

Would you bring it back with another helicopter? Yeah. Just tie it on and bring it back and then start working on it? Did you feel jinxed going back in that aircraft again? No. Or did you feel lucky? You already got shot down, you made it.

You know, when I class in the rice paddy, I jumped out of the chopper and grabbed the M-30, the old one, the World War II machine gun. And then my cruise ship, bring a little, carry the armor box. And my co-pie, he ran along with me. When I became the M-thurly, I looked back and I saw the... The water on the rice paddy was swelling, selling, because they were shooting from the village. Oh, yeah. Still.

And I run to the border of the rice paddy and put the gun on, put the machine gun on, and load it, and I shot it. I thought, idiot, work. I shoot one round in a time with the machine gun. Yeah, those old 30 calibers were not the most. reliable after the first 30 years of combat. Jeez. I know there's another story where you got shot down again after and the day before Kingby had been shot down and then you went in. What happened on that operation?

In that operation, the day before we went out and to resupport. and bring the wound from the team. And I land and pick up some and resupply some, but the second one, that's how they down by the RPZ. And it was about 5 p.m. And when I saw it, and I came back to Dacto. And no, we lost two king bee at that time. Yeah, two kingby on the previous day.

And I decided not to that anymore. How did you feel about going on an operation when there was two king bee shot down the day before? And now you have to go back in there. What did that feel like? Oh, I think that we need to bring the, uh, all of my friends back. Yeah. And when I land to on a at a Dacto, the radio man from the camp, he went out. He said, order from Saigon, not to land anymore.

And he lowered his boy, but the last decision is yours. And I said, oh, I'm going on the way now again. And I asked the COVID and the two gunship, and then my number three, number four, Kingbe. I will go in again and when we were about, yeah. I tell them, just follow me. And when we were about five kilometers from the LZ, then we were about five kilometers from the LZ, And you people just skip operating. And I will go down by myself.

And I wait until 7 o'clock, 7 p.m. It's dark. And I say, let's go. And I turn out on my light, the light, even the dashmore, the light. You turn them off? Turn them all off. It's very, very, very, very big fate.

It's hard to see. And because anyway, for a long time flying, I can listen to the engine and know how much it did it. It was working. And how many RPM is running, I can listen. And when you were about five kilometers from the LZ, I turned out the light and tell other people to orbit wait for me and I asked the COVID do you see me and he said that yes so I cut up the engine and go down go down to the top of the tree recover it and ask him again do you still see me and he said yes okay got me in and he got

turn right straight light left live and then I was ahead and make a 360 with a 90 notical mind make a 360 degree to land on the LZ. So they were walking you in and telling you exactly what you got, guiding you in. At night, at treetop, in the jungle, and there's mountains here. It's not like we're flying in Cambodia where it's flat. He's flying over the hills too just and that's just part of this one another day with a king bee pilot at night with the lights out and he got everybody out and the next day I came in again at 10 a.m. And when I was ticking off and I held a big brush and the,

the chopper, start to make up because the engine was lost. The blast blew up the engine. Wait, what blew up the engine? Yeah, the enemy fire. It was hit by the RPG. Oh, okay, you got hit by an RPG. Right in the front. I make the right, so I make the right move to keep the chopper.

jumper who stick to the side of the hill and still and start a little low the left side down to so it can hold on the side of the hill and I said that the copai when I jam out I said that my copai he was on my left side and I said to run so let me make sure I get this your your your the aircraft gets hit with an RPG the engine dies the engine came off oh the engine came off

yeah it blew off the engine okay and so then that's why the chopper nose up like so now the chopper goes nose up yeah you're gonna crash land

and you have to do it on a hillside yeah and so you had to kind of maneuver the helicopter to be at an angle yeah so it won't perform it will roll it out in the hill and then so you land it

basically you are able to crash land And then you look at your co-pilot and say run. And we ran uphill. Okay. To join the team. And so then you joined the SOG team on the ground. Yes. Did you carry the M30 again for good luck?

No. At that time, we already had M60. Okay. So you got the M60 off of it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. But, uh... So then what happened when you joined up with the SOG team?

The SOG team. Because they, oh, the M-16 and M-18 were all over the dish. And I grabbed one of them. Now, at first I, yeah, I got one of them tried to shoot. And however the RPG came from. But it didn't work because they shot all of them. And they ran out of boths? Yeah.

I think the girl was too dry. Oh, the gun was too dry? Yeah, and couldn't shoot anymore. Okay, so now you're in a perimeter, I guess, with your team, with the team. They're wounded. Yeah. And this is a wounded people he had picked down. What team was this?

I don't know, sure. Salta can't know. This is before my time, even, like 67, I think. So I run around and found another M79 again. The grenade launches. Two bags of a grenade and then. So I just, okay, you shoot me now, I'll give me back to you. I shoot, I empty two bikes of a M79.

And I started shooting from 50 meters away from us to 200 meters away from us. meters away from us. How long were you guys on the ground for before you got extracted? And when I after I shot the order the grenade, I called the COVID.

And he said, you still alive? Yeah, I still alive. And I called my rescue pilot because he was on the sky and he saw the, he said the, he saw the plane, the line of frame go and hit my chopper, and my chopper explode.

The front nose exploded, and he thought that I was dark there. But when he was ducked, and he said, oh, you're still alive? And I said, yeah, but don't land anymore. We have to move. Yeah, see, here, if that had been a U.E, they're dead. Everybody's dead, but that's a king bee. Yeah, the R.P.G hit the engine and blew it out, which is a nine-cylinder World War II engine from the B-17,

but blew it out of the aircraft, and he still was able to talk about it and walk away from it. And crash land that thing. On the sideways on a hill, yeah. So did the other aircraft, the other Kingby then land and pick you guys up quickly, or were you out there for a while? No, we have to run away from the LZ with the team, from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. before I would speak up.

So much for the two-hour missions. Six hours. Six hours. And you're getting shout up by the NBA the whole time? Yeah, many times. And he's learning how to shoot the M-79 in between the M-16 and the M-60, whatever rounds he has, on-the-job training in Laos.

Jeez. So then you come back from that mission and then take a shower, get ready, and go brief another mission. That's what you guys did. No, after that mission, then I was hard down. I went back to, they brought back to Duktoe. And at that time, my command, my squad,

and the whole staff of the squad and came down to Dektoe to see what happened. They couldn't believe you were still alive. And yeah, and when I, When I first see my squad of man, I said that my friend needs to have one week

to run away from vacation to relax. Do you give it to you? Yeah, he said, okay, you can go. So all you had to do is take an RPG hit, have your engine blown out, crash land and do a six-hour gunfight with the NBA to get a week's vacation.

I don't know. That seems like a rough tour. But the previous day, one of the job was also started him by the RPG and the co-pilot got killed. And the pilot and the mechanic and the cruise ship got burned to, but I brought them home. And the, before the, the next day before I left the LZ, I ran back to the Dukkla standing of the shopper that went down before the previous day and tried to look for something, it could remain of the co-pilot of the previous day, but I couldn't find any. The whole thing was the white ass because the aircraft was the aluminum.

Oh, so it just burned. It just burned. That wasn't your last time getting shot down. No, no, yeah. What about your tail rotor getting shot off? Oh, tail rotor, cable. It was in Laos, and I was taking it off, and suddenly I feel.

I saw somebody hit my feet on my feet, I mean. And I asked my crew ship, what's happening with the tail rotor? And he checked along and he got in the tail boom and said that the cable, the control cable of the railroad was shut off. And so, because when I feel it hit the, somebody, something hit, but the pail, I, the, the, the chopper, when I was taking it off, the chopper, start to turn right, because we have, we don't have the control of the tail. So I move to the left and reduce the power. And I accept, I accept to be shot with the auto, but. with order

rather than grass landing so I keep taking off with 60 knots and fly 60 knots a little bit sideways and break from Laos to

and I called my the other thing me go ahead and land first and prepare for the all the extinguice and

because I have to make a grass and they went and made a long, big traffic and land, make a landing landing. When the tailwheeled touchdown, I told my coal bike, cut off the power. And he got off the power and the job was slowly, slowly sand down, and then he got to start running. Start running. And I hit the break, I hit the break to stoke.

to stop it. But before I tested up, I told my cruise ship, tell the team, nine of them in the chopper, tell the team when I slow down the chopper, and tell them to jump out. Oh, a nine men team. Tell them to jump out, not to remain, because we might make a class. And finally, the chopper, told them to run. and stopped when I look down I like none of them them out is they still in his jumper and did any of the nine members of the team get wounded one guy was

wounded no nobody's wounded but yet they shot the rotor they the cable to the rotor yeah that's crazy and the aircraft between the weight and the way he adjusted the cyclistick yeah he flew back sideways and decreased the speed it's like I never heard that story. This is another one of those Oh my God stories. Just another day flying Kingbees. With captain on.

Now you know why we say never one pilot. Oh, man. I tell you one thing. If at that time we have the gun ship. Yes. To go for ourselves, then we can make a lot of things. Is that right?

Yeah. Because we, you know, When you go out to this operation, the feeling and the thinking of the enemy, what they are there thinking, we can guess. But the American, you couldn't guess what they are doing, what they are going to do. So you're saying that the Americans, we would do random things, but the enemy, you kind of knew what they were going to do. They followed patterns?

We can guess. most of them. Wow. The Americans just go out and receive the ground fight somewhere and they're supposed to suppress it, try to suppress it. But for us, we can guess

where they are going to put again or what are going to plan. Because sometimes, when one time I was shot, I was taking off in the ALZ and the

I heard a heavy, heavy ground find from the right side. And I looked back and I saw the NVA sheeting behind the 50-caliable and shooting at me less than 100 years. And so I dived down to the bamboo top and make the zig-zag fries. But I escaped, but the second king bee came in. and they made it. They made it. They got shut down.

Shot down and got fire. Wow. It's too close. Less than a hundred years. Another one, Tilt was telling me about was you got something hit and you got hit by something

and almost knocked you out of your seat. Yes. And there was like a two inch hole in the back of the King Bee. What was that? We couldn't find the foul. We couldn't find the, the round and I don't what kind of, what kind of gun with that.

But at that time I was taking out from the LZ in Laos and suddenly, it's like somebody hit me with a hammer in the back and hit me forward. So I used my left hand, left, left, knee to hold this collective and keep flying and I used my left hand to check my back. And I say, oh, he's still dry. I mean, I still okay. No blood. No blood.

And when you got home, I checked what it was wrong. And I saw the back of the back seat, the back of my seat. The whole bigger than this one. Yeah. I couldn't find it around. Did you guys, was there any armored all? on the King Bee? No. No armor. Just aluminum. Aluminum. Can't stop anything. Except, oh yeah, one there is one, uh, armor plate. Underneath the engine. Underneath the engine.

They had an armor plate. Oh, to protect. Maybe 18 inches or 18 inches wide. Mm-hmm. We'd wrap up on the sides underneath the engine. That's about the only armor I'm aware of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What'd you wear? Did you wear, did you wear a flack vest or anything? No. No point. No. They had really cool Kingby flight. Just a flight suit. Overalls.

They have their king being sickness on them, and they have their holster on their hip like a cowboy. They were really good-looking uniforms. I like the black was best. How many operations do you think you flew? This conclusion I got 4,000 hours, minus 1,000 an hour for liason or in the other thing. So 3,000 hours?

3,000 divide to 2 hours for each mission. So 1,500 or so missions. Yeah, give a take. Give it take 100. These are all saw missions. Yeah. How often would you have enemy contact on the ground when you went in? Usually, when I came in to insurgent team, and I saw something, just like one time, when I

went to the LZ, and I saw the telephone line on the LZ, and the team was getting off, and come back, come back, come back. And they could make them out one time and then I saw it. And I brought them back right away. But most of the time when we got shot when we take home from the LZ, when the team were changed. For the extraction. Yeah, for the extraction.

Yeah. So most of the time you could get in. Well, you would just pull the team out almost immediately if you guys took contact. Right. Yeah, if we were compromised and we just try to get it back, go out if we could. What percentage do you think you guys were compromised? on the insert. Probably a lot more than we realized.

Because they would have the LZ watchers and they would like to get us on the ground first, particularly by the end of 68 because they had the Sugg hunter-killer teams that were out there. Their main mission was to find us. Yeah, I would think they would want to wait until you inserted, see you insert,

let the helicopters leave, and then roll you up. There you go. So the insert usually would go well unless there are days, like we had that time in November where we get shot out, the primary or secondary, and the ultimate.

And the Kingbies would go in, Bing, Bing, Bing, go have lunch. They would refuel, have a little lunch. There's another target. Go back and do it again. And often, they would come back with bullet holes because we literally got shot out.

If there's enemy activity there, we wouldn't go. You're a compromise. You want to try to least get on the ground and get it going with the mission. And we had several days like that, back to back. the back and the kingpiece got beat up

but fortunately not was got shot down and the Sikorsky is just a beat that's just a that's just a hoss of a aircraft yeah it only had one door but it had the windows so whenever we're extracted our the first man in the chop would go to the

left window you mean the port side port that's what I meant I always get the port confused with it starve unless I'm drinking port And that would be your S-O-P. That's an army man right there. Indeed. The left side.

Yes. Is the bulkhead secure? The bulkhead is secure. There you go. You're all Navy. And then right here we can interject. Sometimes they would be in the air and there would be an emergency call for any helicopter, which he did in August of 1969.

I forget what you. you were on, but this is that mission with Scarface. And Scarface was making a gun run, and they were working in conjunction with the 101st Airborne on their Air Mobile units.

And there was a river stream, and they were making a gun run. So the 1001st that had gone down with the cobra, they had Cobras in. Scarface came in with a regular gunship, got hit. As it went down, it flipped over, Two of the crew members came out.

It crashed upside down. They put out an emergency call. On was there. He responds to the call. The gunships went down, and they made a gun run on each side of the upside down scarface. He followed him right in. And he picked up the two to the crew members. He picked up.

No, I didn't pick up. I just spot them. You spotted them first? Because I flew along the stream to see what I can find any people. And I spot two of them standing on the big rock over this table. And I called them, let them know. And so they came down to pick them up. And I kept trying down the stream to look for other people.

But I couldn't find it anymore. I came back, I came back to the down hill. It's upside down. And I couldn't see anywhere, I couldn't see inside the cabin or a cockpit. So I used my right wheel to turn it back. You flipped over the Huey. While under enemy fire.

And I checked inside and still nobody in there. So I told them I couldn't find anymore. Didn't you have your crew chief hang out the door? And then he was able to say that he saw people in the pilot and the co-pilots. Because this day there's two, those are only two Scarface Marines aviators that are still listed as MIA. I think it was the pilot and the crew chief because the co-pilot got out. And they were able to rescue those two. And the bubble of the front of the UE is where he put his, you know, the strut, put the wheel in and lifted up.

the helicopter and his crew chief goes and hangs out all while under enemy fire. So in August 2000, Scarface honored on at a banquet in San Diego to thank him for that heroic mission. And they helped get your award for that mission, correct? Was that part of that? No yet. Not yet. But that was one mission where he was just flying and they had to call for help. he responded to help Scarface because Scarface and 100 first had protected King Bees all the time and you got shot up on that one too

it wasn't like we're just another day in the park he's helping the Marines try to find those aviators and I'm not sure how many hits he got but just the fact to go down the stream put the strut underneath the front nose that had been knocked out and lifted up

to give them a status report just another day with the king bees amazing. Yeah, the reputation you guys had must have been just, I mean, that opening that I read from this, it's just epic, you know, to hear the relief from Watkins, which hears who it is, like, okay, now we got a chance. Yeah. And that was always our golden moment.

When you're on the ground, you're in a firefight, and they say, the king bees are coming. It's like, thank God for the king bees. on that mission when you decide hey you know what I'm not going to bring a co-pilot I'm not going to bring a crew chief I'm just going to bring me

and the gunner that's it that seems like that seems like a kind of crazy decision to make no because we when I know that the situation was too bad and we have to go

out as fast as we can so we can bring them home as fast as you can meaning it would have taken time to round up the co-pilot? No. If one time when it was, they were put the mortar in the neck,

and I saw the, the, the, the smoke came out from the again, on the other side of the hill. And so I went to my shop and climb up and crank it up. and when I said, taking off the copilot was late and he subscribed him.

So you didn't care if you had a co-pilot or not? No, I didn't care. Well, that's just like that mission later in the book with Chapter 20 when they had the night bright light. Yeah. Where the hatchet force had been in, they had severe casualties. They had all been exfiltrated out.

The last helicopter went in was, again, a U.E. They went in on strings to pick up the team leader from the hatchet force. They had a sergeant stayed back and a couple indigenous troops and the chopper got shot down,

crashed. And then that night, they asked to go in. This is October 69. And Lynn Black went in and On took them out. Again, with no crew. They took him out at night,

found the LZ. They thought they were going to have to repel in, but somehow he's able to front. find an area big enough to get the king being and went down. Lynn Black got in, picked up the team member, had a broken back and the other survivors. And then he came back again at night, picked up the team.

I think this time they had to pull him out on strings. And then they pulled them out. Was there anyone else that could fly at night like you could? Yes, some of them. Was it your eyesight? Was it just the amount of hours that you? you had in the helicopter? Oh, yeah, you can see.

You know that at that time, we only have the, let's see, the C model that we got from the Alme, have the ADF, VHF, and FM. But the D model, we got from the Marine, have the Tekken, UHF, VHF, VHF, and FM. FM, FM, but since the Titan and the VSF, we don't use it often. We almost never use it, and it's too heavy, and it was installed in the tail boom, and

it makes the chopper heavy, tail heavy. So I remove all of them. You just take all those extra radios out. Yeah, we don't use it. We only need the E.HM and the FM. That's all. And this leads me to a quick sidebar. I don't know if this is you or not,

but we had in 68, the King Bees, had the Marines wanted to race the King Bees to Fubai. So they had, I mean just a race? A race, race, race. Okay. So we're not going to combat. Oh, no, no, this is just going from Danang from the Air Base. And the King Bees go, we'll race you to Fubbi.

Okay. So King Bees versus what? versus the Marine Corps H-34s. They still have some H-34s. Oh, so it's just, it's King Bee versus Kingby. Yeah, but it's Kingby versus Marine Corps. Got it. With all the radios.

So the Marines had to go around High Van Pass and go over to South China Sea. Kingbyes fly up and over, Bing. They get the flew by, win $100. I hope that was you or not, but that was one of our favorite Kingby stories. The freshman always told that one. Man. And then who's your maintenance crews? Oh, yeah.

Was it, Vietnamese Air Force? They were in the Vietnamese Air Force. And later on, we got the, let's see, what was that? I said they forget, L-O-D, the American company. Oh, American company.

Yeah. They, they are the, they main, job is only to replace the part. I suppose to change the tail rotor. They bring the whole set and put it on. They change the whole set. But I don't trust them. You know why?

Why? Because one time after they changed the tail rotor. And after I checked everything, I started to clean up the sharper, crank up the engine, and the shopper started jumping up and down, up and down. And I just split off the needle and cut off the engine. And the chopper would stick like this, and it starts the nose come up. And I go down and check, go around and check, check the tail. Oh my God, my gosh, only only three breaks and remain.

He's supposed to have four break. Oh, I only had three. But one was not there. A tailroar was M-I-A. Three out of four. That could ruin your day. Yeah, we had in Vietnam for the seals in Vietnam. They had a similar relationship that the Saug guys had with the Kimbees

with the Sea Wolves. And they had to kind of improvise. Improvise. And their maintenance, they were very proud of and very proud of their maintenance crews because their maintenance crews would keep those aircraft running and they would do whatever they had to do. And rob, cheat and steel to get the equipment. They were king of scroungers. That's right.

That's right. And they were already, you know, using birds that had, I forget, they scrounged up the aircraft themselves from somewhere. They were kind of left over aircraft. And so it wasn't just the pilot. and the gunners and then on top of that these incredibly hard work and you know sailors in the navy that were making those birds able to fly on a moment's notice but it's this it's a very similar relationship for the saw guys and the king bee pilots as it is for the seals and the and the sea wolf guys oh they're of legend absolutely yeah outstanding yeah and and just the um it's a similar you know the the attitude you know what you said con or on earlier when I asked you, you know, what what are you thinking about when you need to go back into a spot

where two Kingbees have already shot down, been shot down, and your response was, I want to get my friends out. That's it. That's the esprit of core that is just unmatched, you know, and having that relationship with, and just that warrior brotherhood is awesome. And then there's a very human side,

like there's a few times after we get pulled out right at last light, and we go up to the kingby pile, say, hey, come on, I'll buy you a drink. And then Captain Tinn would say, I'm going home to my family, or Captain Tewong. No, thank you, but I'm going to go home

my family. I'll be back tomorrow. You buy me drinks tomorrow. And they come back and they had time and get in the club, I'll have a drink before we go on the next mission. That's just amazing. So you had this whole

Yeah, that's crazy you think about too. That dichotomy. Yeah. They're with their flying home to her family. Sheesh. And they always came for us. They never, you know, we never had them say no for us, any of our teams. Yeah, no, that's definitely something to think about, because Americans, we are always fighting

in someone else's country, right? We don't go home. No. We go on deployment. That's it. You know, there's no family. Were you married during this time, or were you, did you have kids during this time? Did you have your, your brother?

Yeah, I married in 1969. and I don't remember if I would shut down before it or after it I don't remember except the last time and you must remember you know going on a mission getting your aircraft shot up and then going home to your wife and saying hi honey I'm home yeah yep every time I'm I was shot, but they didn't, I think most, many times they miss me. One time I flew back from Chesang, made to Guangxi, and the weather was very bad, and we threw low, low,

about 300 feet along the hillside. And suddenly, somebody fired a long line or cracket right at my ear. And I looked up, I looked uphill, and I saw a lot of NVA. You know in the Civil War? The front lines, the sheet, the second line, the knee. the third lines, they stand, just like that, and they were on the hill, and they're shooting at me. Wow.

And I told my cruise ship, shoot back, shoot back, shoot back, and I saw the-tracers? Yeah, the round, yeah, the round, dig up the whole, in front of the front line of them. I don't know if they hit any of them or not. But because I was the last one in the fly at that time. And so I just kept flying back to Guangxi. And back to Guangxi, I, I found 49 holes. He's flying from Kaysan where we had F-O-B-3.

He would pick up teams and launch for targets from Kaysan. And, of course, when you flew into Kaysan, this is during the offensive. So, you know, that was, so he flies from that hot zone flying to Kwon Tree, which is, quote, a secure base. And en route, there's three lines of NVA just practicing target, hit them 49 times. Yeah, 49 rounds. What happened the last time you got shot down?

The last time I got shot down was in Budap, north of Banereto. And I insurged team and came back. When they came back, I just like when you're in service for a long time or in combat for a long time, you have some feeling. I would say six feelings. And I feel something wrong on the ground. down in the jungle.

So I, from 1,500 feet, I go down to detect it. At about 500 feet, they start to shoot at me. And is this when you're trying to extract them, or is this during the insert? He dropped them off. He's coming back from... Okay, so after you drop them off, you're halfway home,

and you decide you're going to go look on the ground. Yeah. And you're still getting shot at. Yeah. And... I got mad and I said I make this exact fry and I escaped the line of fire and I got mad I said this is my land and I take care of it oh why you can you're down to shoot in me so I come back and shoot and I got hit again and the

shop got fire the round hit the fuel tank and then the fuel ignites And the fire comes from the fuel tank into the cabin. He's at 500 feet trying to keep the aircraft stable to land while on fire. And I was on top of the frame. The frames come up from the cabin to the cockpit. And if I land right at right somewhere around there, It will be okay, but I don't want to be caught. So I keep flying back to Budap.

So your plane's on, so your helicopter's on fire. On fire. You could land, but you don't want to get caught. No. Because that's going to be a horror. And I tried to get back to Budap. And the frame, the flame keeps her. keep burning and one time it was so hot that I left I left all of the control

the collective and cycle I left it I keep my my hand in my chest when I saw the when I left the site a sacred then the chopper start to dive down and I saw the route coming up. And I said, I just tell a thing in my head, and it's on, it's over. But when it comes close to the three top, the instinct of survival, pushed me to gravitate the circuit and pull it back. And the chelker was diving down. And then suddenly, when I pulled the cyclic back, so hard.

And it come up. I thought that the main road that would come off, but it didn't. And I saw it, and I labeled it, and saw the shopper's diving again. So it tried like a thin line in the sky. And finally, I make a glass landing in the open area. So the handles were so hot that you couldn't hold on to them. No. But then at the last minute, survival instinct, you knew what you had to do in order to get some kind of a landing.

So you just grabbed those. And when I saw the LZ, I was flying at 80, 80 vertical mile. And it was 90 vertical miles. And I moved the cycling. to the right and push the right payroll all the way down. And so the chopper at a 90-nacle-mile make it 360 degree. So quick as that, I thought the tail boom came off, but he didn't. And it started to sail down.

And I touched down very smooth, but it still still running. So it hit the tree and on the wheel came off. The blade came off, and when it stopped, I grabbed the seatbelt lock, and I pulled it, but instead of where I can pull it, my finger opened it. And for three times I used my left hand, my left elbow to hit the buckle, and release the lock. and I grabbed the handle of the window because when I make a class, it runs and the window

ran forward, move forward, and close it. So I grabbed the handle of the window, pull it back, but it happened like the seatbelt. I grabbed it, but the finger opened, but couldn't hold the handle. Because the skin was burning off. So I used my shoulder to hit the wheel. window and broke the window out.

I jumped out. When I jumped out, I saw from knee down, all of the material which came out, except the zipper remained. And the clothes is still burning. So I rolled down all the grass, wet grass, and to put it off. And after it was off, I couldn't stand up. My crew chip, run by and grab me up, made me to the rescue shop, the number three Kingby.

So then you get on the number three King B, they get you out of there, and obviously you go straight to the hospital. They brought me back to the military hospital. It was in the military hospital in Saigon. And I stayed there for until 11 a.m. to next morning. Next morning, the one king bee pilot from Danang Field Bay with the American Applies. Brought me to a third field hospital.

And that's where I stayed for eight months. And what was that process like those next eight months? Oh, they amputated my hand and make a seat spin grab on my leg because of my leg. When I was in the hospital, the day the doctor, Dr. Smith, he amputated my hand. I asked him, how about my leg? He said that he didn't know until after the operation. Did they amputate both your hands at the same time? Yes.

And then what was the plan from there? What happened after that? After that, I go back and for eight months. No, the treatment meant, the treatment amount, about four or five months. But after that, I go back and fall back to the hospital, for the doctor to check it. And after that, after all the treatment, they sent me back to the Viannees Hospital.

And at some point, I know you had a brother that was an AE1 pilot, right? Yeah, he's A1 pilot. And what happened with him? He was on the 95 mission. And he was missing. It's all right. No.

95 business were across the fence also, right? No. No? He was missing about 30 kilometers north of Tainan. Tainan. North of Tainan. And then what was it like when the war started to kind of wind down for, you know, America leaving and the communists are going to take over? What was that, what was that like for you?

At the end of April, April 95, yeah. One was the king of pilot, came to see me and he was my co-fi. This is in April of 1995? No, 19705. Oh, 19705. Okay, got it. And he asked me what we are going to do. And I say, I really don't know what to do now.

Is everything mess up? Did you, I mean, obviously, did you feel like when the communists took over that you were just doomed? Because clearly you were a veteran that had fought for South Vietnam. It seems like you would, you must have felt like you would be doomed if they completed the take over of Vietnam. No, I don't think so. The thing is that we were desperate because we lost the world. On the, let's see, April 30, 1975, I was on board of one. I was on board of one of the ship.

I still remember the name, the Sea Challenger. And when I heard the, it was off of Woon Tau. So you were on an American ship? I don't know which is. The Sea Challenger? Yeah, Sea Challenger. And when I heard the announcement of a surrender from General Ming, oh, my tears just came out.

And I went to do them over the war. But when I look back and I see my toolkit, and he stole me. He stole me from Jambia. So then what happened? I mean, now you've got your two kids. Yeah. You're in Vietnam.

The South has surrendered. What happened then? We go back to, go back home, and then wait for what happened. And in July, yeah. In July, 6th, July 75, I was in, they put me in the re-education camp.

In a re-education camp? Yeah. What was that experience like? Oh, my God. They just talk about... propaganda? Yeah, propaganda, that's all. And the thing is that,

the people who, they want us to go to class every day. And we have to go to class every day. They keep talking, but the guy who tell, who tell, this level of knowledge. Oh, my God. This is like the, maybe class three, and the grade three. So you're being re-educated by a third grade. Yeah, by the third grade. And they keep, and all of them talking the same way.

Just like the machine. It's just indoctrination. Yeah, indoctrination. How long did, you? And how long were you at the re-education camp for? I was there from July, from June to August. And then how did you get out of the re-education camp? Well, one time I was going out with the other prisoner to create up the camp.

And I was pulling the barber wife with them. And one of the, one of the, one. One of the guy, the NVA, told me that you keep working and we have the inspection team from Saigon to come see. And when I saw that, I heard that, I don't want, I don't, I didn't have pulled the motherboard wire anymore. I just keep going along with my friends. And one of the guy, one of the guy in the inspection team.

He came by my side and asked my name and my military ID. And after that he said, okay, you keep working with your friend. And he left. He kept walking away and about 50 meters away. He pulled out the notebook and stop writing something. don't know. But one week later, they transferred me from Long Zhao to Sui Mau. And from at the Sui Mao came, I stayed there for another week. And one day, they called, they announced on the radio that your people have the name below, be prepared to be, uh, you know,

to have your family to pick your people back home. So that was it. And then you got out of the camp? Yeah. And so now it's still 1975? 1975. And then what happens? Then what do you start doing?

Then we start to leave. My God, it's after 75, you know, after the one day they can take go over the south. The life was miserable. You know the people who Everything is a stamp Food stamp Everything stamp And

One month maybe each of them Each people can buy Maybe 100 100 grams of meat A hundred grams of meat a month Of a month maybe Or sometimes they don't

But It's a meat But in fact They even can give you either the hide or the fat or anything. And I still remember one time when the one of the guy who worked in the district, he rode a bicycle to around the street near my house, near my house, and said that, the face goes. people go to buy fees and my son, he was at, she's 75, 76, he was nine, seven or nine,

I don't remember. He just grabbed the basket and runs two to the ones so he can buy the fresh one. But if he came late, he reached the selling place, there will be rotten fish only. Only rotten fish. Yeah. So you lived in that regime for how many years? How many years did you have to live like this? From 75 to I don't remember exactly.

Maybe about 84. About 84. And you tried to escape a few times? Yeah. The first time I tried to escape my son and we got caught. How was your first escape attempt? What did you do? I asked my neighbor, she has some information from other people.

And so we, every time we have to pay. And the first time we got caught at Namkan, way south to Camero. And we were in prison. We were in prison. So they put you and your son in prison? Yeah. You know, the prison in Namkan is a case in maybe. It wouldn't case, not a prison, about 1.5 the side of this room.

They made it from the... So maybe 20 feet by 20 feet or something. Not even that Not even that And You know the The tree In the swamp

In the swamp In the swamp Yes Yeah They cut it And make it Just like a cage Just a cage

Just a cage Yeah Just a cage And They cover the Top With the Mambore How were you

Planning to escape What was the plan? Were you going to go by a boat Were you going to walk? The only thing we can go is by boat. By boat. Yes. Four cores, like a lot of canals, water, much water, very few roads.

And... How long were you in this cage for with your son? Maybe a couple months. And they transfer us to... To what? Shok Chang. Soxang. Was that?

Yeah. And, you know, the... case you know in Namkan there there were a lot of mosquito not mosquito and every day we have only one you know the tiger beer in Vietnam yeah the model by this this big and every day only one one bottle of water for one day for holding everything. For months you're like this in a cage with barbed wire on top. And the mosquito at about 5 o'clock, 5 p.m. we have to sit in there with the mosquito net. If not they, they, but this is a swamp of a mosquito. It's like me.

and after a couple months we were moved to somewhere moved to was it

another prison another prison how long were you in total prison for and why did they eventually let you out

or how did you get out eventually oh my family and the other people who who

they get in touch with the local. And every time they want myself and my son, we were released, we have to pay about six or seven hours of gold. Six or seven ounces of gold. No, no, no, no, not hours. Oh. That's it.

Point six or point seven ounce of gold. Got it. Where would you find gold? They like gold. Jeez. The time I was, I got caught in Namkan. The police, he just got in, put his hand in my pocket and found a ring, a gold ring. And he just took it and put in his pocket.

my pack of a cigarette, he take it out and smoked and put in his spoke and two. That's when you got caught the second time? No, it's the first time. Oh, the first time. So you lost your gold ring, you lost your pack of smokes. And then you tried to escape a couple more times? Yeah, another two times. But after the first time, I saw that my son is getting bigger.

I don't want him to be assigned or to be called to service by the, with the NBA. So I let him go by himself. So your son escaped by himself? Did he make it? Yeah, he made it in 87. I mean he, at that time he was 16, 17. So you were facing either your son escapes

or your son is going to have to actually serve in the NVA who you had fought against for however long, six years. Right. Jeez. After my son, have escaped. And I brought my daughter to escape another two times.

I got caught to. Oh, my God. And was the punishment as severe the second two times? Oh, the second time, it was okay. But we, after we, we can get out a couple months after we pay about 0.6, 0.7 hours ago. Where do you find gold? Oh. Luckily that my sister, who passed away early this year, he sent money to help my mom.

Where was your sister? My sister in France. So she was in France? So she was able to somehow send money to your mom? No, she didn't send money. She sent medicine. medicine. Medicine.

And I sell it. I sold it. Okay. Got it. So you were a drug there. At the time, there's no medicine in there now. And during that time, too,

your father was killed, right? My father died in 63. 63? 63. Okay, I'm sorry. Yeah. The day I joined the Air Force. The day you joined the Air Force,

they killed your... My father died passed away. My father died. I passed away that day. So how did you finally get out of Vietnam and get to America? Oh, I see. In 88, then I heard that the HO program. I am not qualified for that program.

You say HO? HO, yeah, humanitarian organization. Okay. Departion, yeah. And it helped the people who was in service or who was in prison in the company prison for more than three years. Can apply to come here. How did you not qualify for that? Because the total time I spent prison is only two and a half year.

Oh, so you needed to spend some more time in prison and qualify. Can you imagine that? After all the service? Good Lord. And so I thought that maybe I would, I might be leaving Vietnam forever. So I prepare for my, what I'm going to do to leave. But at that time, the South Vietnamese Air Force Association, Jose, they met Colonel Masuoka.

He was the Air Force retired colon. So this is an American Air Force retired colonel? Masuoka? Masuoka. And he was working with the San Jose South Vietnamese Air Force Association. Yeah. And he, the South Vietnamese Air Force Association, asked me to help me.

I asked him to help me. And he went to Vietnam and saw me. When I, he asked me to bring on the paper that I had. And I brought it to him. And when he saw the DFC, and he said it. When he saw the what, the DFC? No, DFC, distinguished by and gross. What's that?

American Award. Oh, the DFC, got it, got it, got it. Or the St. The Sting was flying clause. Got it. Okay. I have it, yeah. Yeah, no, I got it.

I misunderstood you. It's okay. Okay, so he saw that. But he didn't say anything. But later on, he said that. He told me that. He didn't believe it. Because usually the DFC is supposed to give to a war to the American holiday.

So after he looked on the kind of paper on my paper and he said that, he will try 100%, but he's not guaranteed. 100%. And he came back to state and he called one of the

guy who worked in the archive, national archive. And that guy was working with him in the military. When he was coroner, that guy was the second

lieutenant, no, no, the second lieutenant, no, second colonel. No, second colonel. Okay, like a lieutenant colonel. Yeah, lieutenant colonel. I got it.

And they looked at it, they found the DFC. They found your DFC. Yeah, and they found all the record and the paperwork on that, DFC. Wow. And they made as the National Inquire, the magazine. The National Inquirer magazine? They found the report for the guy that I rescue. And one pilot came to see me.

It's a zone liner. And his squad command is Morrison. And they came to the National Inquire bought the airplane ticket. So they came over here to see me. And so then they set up that program to get you back here. So what year did you finally get back here? Or what did you get to America? Let's see.

I came here in 1994. 1994. Yeah, 1994. What family did you leave back in Vietnam? When I left Vietnam, my mom's still there. But I told my nephew, the son of my... my missing brother to take care of, to come over and leave with her so I can go. And I came here in, I left Vietnam on January 10, 94.

And I came, I reached Travis here on January 15, 94. And then what happened? Did you have any family here? Did you know anybody? No, at first I leave in the same house with the chief of the the South of the Air Force Association here. Okay. Yeah.

I lived for six months after that I moved out. And then did you get a job? What did you do? No, yeah. At that time, my son and my daughter worked to support me. Okay. And when you made it out, so you had your son and your daughter with you when you made it out? My son came here before.

Oh, that's right. So he was already here. That's right. But when I came here in 1994, my daughter came with me. Got it. Yeah. So your son and your daughter were here or your son was already here. Your daughter came with you.

And now they're working and starting to figure out life in America. Yeah. How big of a shock was that to you? At that time I was sad because just stay home and do nothing. And waiting for what is going to happen. Because at that time, they were trying to get the citizenship for me. So they can keep me here. And it's a lot of petition at that time.

Greenwich was, have had actually a letter of British. Jesus. Senator Greenwich, yeah. Right. And in 60, 96, I got a citizenship. 1996, you got your citizenship here in America. Jeez. Then you went to the Santa Clara Fire Department?

Yeah, I, before that, I don't know, after that I, after that I, uh, I go to school for the accounting class. And after one year, I got a job in Santa Clara Fire Department. I worked for almost three years, and they ran out of budgets. And I was a job and unemployed for six months and get another job in the IRS. Oh, you worked for the IRS? Yeah. Okay, well.

Suppose we'll have to figure that out. Yeah. He's one of them. He goes from a good guy, a hero, to the IRS. And how long were you at the IRS for? From 2000 to 2013, 13 years. And that was it after that you retired? Yeah.

And what are you doing now? Sleep and watch TV. No more prairie fire emergencies, huh? But at first, it was really boring. I tried to look for the part-time job, but I couldn't find a part-time job. So then you just had to, you just pure retirement now. You looked for a part-time job that wasn't anything?

I don't care what was anything. It's just maybe about four hours, six hours a day. You're ready to work. Yeah. Ready to work. Sick of watching TV. And you're up in this area here, in the San Jose area? Yes, you know, I said that day I came here.

Okay, because we might be able to find a job for you. Somebody probably looking for someone. Got to. Yeah. Let to work on that. Yeah, yeah. Tilt, did I miss anything? I mean, well, let me rephrase that.

I know we missed. I know there's all kinds of stories. Is there anything else that you want to bring up? No, I think those are the major stories. Just the documented ones indeed because that's that's one thing. I mean when you talk when we talk when we broke down your 3,000 combat flight hours I mean we could probably you could talk for You know three thousand hours explaining what happened on all those missions so I mean Just unbelievable that you were able to get through all that

Crazy All my friend he he told me that I I I they they could I wouldn't believe that I still alive until today. For sure. For sure. For sure. So, Tilt, but anything else, though? No, we've covered the major points there. And, you know, just like that one time

when the Marines need help, here he comes. He just went there under fire. And so many times as Kingby's got shot up, I mean, 40, 50 rounds, the holes. It's just amazing stuff. and the men where there's so many of our SAUG guys are alive today thanks to the Kingby pilots, period. And of course the other aviators, but in our case, we had that direct relationship with them. They were our primary assets.

They put us in. They always came to pull us out. The Pat Walker's thing you let off with, just a classic moment. He just captured the essence of that on the ground, intense firefight, and here comes to Kingby. not only do you come he settles into a bomb crater so he can get on the helicopter and go home on anything else you want to add

I think this that's the outfit well I'll tell you what it's just been an honor to talk to you and thank you so much for coming on and more important thank you for your service

and your sacrifice it's we won't forget it and you took so many risks you took so many risks and you paid such a price in order to save your comrades and your brothers and arms and to be there for the guys on the ground and we appreciate that

and we appreciate the fact that you stood the line to defend freedom in the world so thank you and during a secret war the king bees were another secret that nobody knew about and so I thank you for doing this to get the story about our heroic

and the other king bee pilots, unfortunately many of whom we've lost. We buried Captain Tewong two months ago, three months ago. And our secret war had its secrets, and one of the gems, one of the great assets were our kingbies. And we salute you every day and their brothers in arms. So thank you for doing that, Jocko. It's an honor.

We appreciate it. Thank you. And with that, Tilt and On have left the building. And once again, we are left with an example of what human beings can do, what human beings can face, what human beings can overcome. Pretty amazing. Yes, sir. Pretty humbling. Yeah.

Yeah. Feel like we can do more. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty much the general kind of overall consensus is I feel like we can do more. Yeah. I feel like we need to do more. I feel like I need to do more anyways. I don't want to like.

bring you over into the group me into your whole thing my whole process of trying to do more because I think sometimes I think you feel like maybe you're good with what you're doing sure yeah I don't know maybe maybe not but yes I think so so you know he mentioned and we all know that he lost both his hands and then later on join the fire department so well he was an accountant at the fire department but yes he's at the fire department with no hands yeah and by the way I mean this is he lost his hands both hands and I asked him about it he's like oh yeah well then I went to he there's no like there was no uh hesitation in carrying on with what he was going to do he's just gonna whatever I guess he's going to get hooks and he's going to carry on that's what he's doing and then at

the end which kind of gives you an insight to like how he's thinking where he's like yeah I'm like retired and I kind of just made a joke like I just sleep and watch TV and he's like man, I'm kind of looking for a part-time job. Like, I've got to go do some stuff. You know what I was thinking about? If somebody told you a story where they said, listen, here's what's going on. I was in a helicopter.

I was flying the helicopter. And the controls of the helicopter were burning and they were on fire. And I couldn't hold on to him. So I just let him go. And then right as we were about to crash, I just grabbed onto him and I steered the aircraft, the helicopter, and I got it to land. And we lived.

But those controls were so hot. It was crazy. Okay, so if you heard that, you would think one level of the word hot, right? Yeah. And there's no way that the level of hot that could be explained to you is so hot that you lose both of your hands

from voluntarily grabbing the controls. Yeah. Like that does, and then as you're trying to get your seatbelt off, your hands are just ripping apart, falling apart. Yeah. So, yeah. And that opening that opening that I read from on the ground with a book on the ground by John Stryker Meyer is just

It's crazy to think you know you oh guess what there's gonna be too dangerous so I'm not gonna take A co-pilot or a crew chief also I'm gonna bring is a door gun or me That's it. That's what we're doing That's that's another level Yeah by the way you're sitting on a base like warm whatever. I don't know cool maybe you're an A C You just had a piece of chicken or something Like life is pretty good, right?

And not to mention these guys in Vietnam They're like have to go home at night Like Till I was saying Hey oh cool I'm gonna go home now Yeah Because I think when I was on deployment I just put all that family stuff out of my brain Yeah I wasn't thinking about my wife and kids

Yeah I was in just the deployment mode I think it would be really hard to go Oh deployment mode Well singing ballet recital with the child with the daughter. Yeah, you know how they say, hey, don't bring your work home or what, you know, what's that saying? Yeah. Right, that's another level right there. That's another level. Check. So yes, we can do more. So, yeah, all right, well, keep

yourself, keep us, we're keeping ourselves in the game. We're all getting older. We're not getting younger, put it that way. Maybe some of us are getting older. Okay, so you're just going back in time. When you edit video, there's a thing you can do that freezes the frame, right? So that's kind of what you feel that you're doing. Freezing the frame. Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, when you're working out anyway, you need supplementation. That's undeniable. I guess you could deny it if you wanted to. Nonetheless, supplementing. That'd be a mistake. I think you'd be a mistake, yes, sir. So anyway, Jock has supplements called Jock Fuel. So these supplements include but not limited to joint warfare for you joints super cruel oil also for you

joints general health some omega three's in there these are important is what I'm saying also discipline discipline go three versions no three versions of the discipline powder do you drink powder every day in the morning kind of yes matter of fact yes so I was thinking about this so in the morning I drink I'm a I'm a coffee I'm a coffee drinker I don't know maybe maybe not I don't drink every single morning. But that's like as far as morning routines go, coffee's not part of your routine. I know that.

Definitely not part of my routine. But is the discipline? Because you get a workout, right? So you take the discipline every morning before the workout. Nope. I take it before I work, work. Oh, yeah.

After the work. Yeah. When I wake up in the morning, I don't drink anything. I just drink water. Water, boom, go. Yeah, that's a good one. All right, interesting.

That isn't sure. I just assumed. Now I'm going to when I'm going to the Jujits, on the. way there on drinking discipline for sure. Three scoops all day. Three scoops actually. Well, yeah.

Sometimes actually, four. There you go. But nonetheless, and then, yeah, so there is potter version. Also, capsule version. Cool, that's when you're on the go. And then the energy drink, healthy energy drink version. See, this is a good one. So in, as far as energy drinks go, like we say.

you can have an energy drink but even saying energy drink kind of brings along the stigma of the energy drink definitely discipline go energy drink RTD does not have that stigma because it is factually healthy truth

true anyway sometimes you look at me you want me to give you back up no on your statement no and I just got that look but then you made a complete thought right so nothing else for me to add yes sir no it's good for you A lot of times I look at you because, like, sometimes you'll have this look, like, oh, let me, like you remember something.

Yeah, like you want to, you know, and I just want to give you that opportunity. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I always have a nice, thank you for the opportunity to speak sometimes. Sometimes you say some good stuff. Anyway, also milk, dessert in the form of protein, protein in the form of dessert. Six and one, half dozen the other? Yes, sir.

Either way, we do know this. We're getting something that's tasty and good for us. us. Good for us. So you could essentially just say it's good. It's good. Because that covers all basis. Yes.

Good for you. Good tasting. It depends on what kind of good because there's a lot of kinds of good and for good. Various things. You've been doing a lot of lawyer activity with me lately about, well, it depends on what you mean by. Yeah. Because it's true. Yeah.

Because you can't just blanket statement a lot of stuff. Like, okay. So my daughter asked me, what's your favorite color? So I'm like, all right. well it kind of depends. Like let's say black was my favorite color. But at the same time, like, I don't necessarily want everything to be black.

Some things I want to be red. Like, I don't want to eat a black strawberry. I'll tell you that. Okay. You see what I'm saying, though. A lot of these questions. Okay. Like I said, you're doing a lot of lawyer.

A lot of these questions demand a little bit of... Favorite color, camo. Next question. All right. Well, you'd want to eat a camo. Orange. I'll tell you that. If there was such a thing, if there was such a thing,

If you get an orange, that was camo, or we just called it a camo instead of an orange. All right. Well, I just think of, like, what if my wife's face was camo? Not again, that wouldn't be too bad either. So, Cammo. All right, well, whatever. All right, cool.

Cool. Cool. Cool. Anyway, all these, all these things. Joccofuel available in various locations, including orjumain. Yes. Vitamin shop.

Absolutely. And as far as discipline go, energy drink cans, Wawa. Yes. Available, straight up. And by the way, also on Amazon. Yes, sir. Also, speaking of origin or germane.com, you can get there, you can get. Wawa, Florida, right now, Wawa, whole east coast, January.

There I said it. It's looking like January for the whole east coast. Thanks to the Floridians, the Florida troopers. out there getting after it, clearing shelves, moving us in the right direction that we can hope for a January, full loadout, Wawa. The people from Pennsylvania are fired up. Have you noticed that on social media? People from Pennsylvania, people from Jersey, people from Virginia are like, we need it up here and this Wawa. Yes.

Yeah, I did see a Pennsylvania probe in there for sure. Yes, good. Okay. Back to Orjibine. dot com American made stuff including geese rash guards jeans American denim and boots yeah and you might think to yourself oh oh American made jeans right okay I know what that's going to be that's going to be a three hundred and fifty dollar pair of jeans that's what you you might be thinking that potentially you're thinking wrong well actually you're thinking

wrong get yourself a couple pair of origin jeans and listen they're not as cheap as we want them to be right now, but as we grow, as we scale, we will be able to get the price down even more. Cool. But join the club of supporting America. That's true. Also, boots, like I said, also, chocolate store. It's called Jocco store. And speaking of clubs, we have another club.

It's not really a club. Yeah, the club, I mean, really, anyway, it's a subscription. Anyway, it's a subscription-based t-shirt scenario. I like that way better than club. Club. I think club is something that you do. Unless you're in a motorcycle gang club, then that's one. That's like one club.

Oh, so it depends. Oh, doesn't it? Well, that's just sort of an old school name. Right, but it depends on the word, what you mean by club. Why are you being a lawyer? Because you're over here, you know, you see what I'm saying. Anyway, yes, club, subscription-based t-shirt. situation, which you are wearing one today.

Is this the initial launch mode? No, it's one of the other ones. I must say, that one's dope. Yeah. And you know I don't throw that phrase around very often at all. Once in a while, yeah, but yes, yes, sir. Lots of layers. A lot of layers.

And yeah, you know, these t-shirt ideas, you know, they come, they go, some stick, some don't stick. But this is like an opportunity for all of us to sort of, you know, capitalize on some of the cool T-shirt ideas that just fly in from time to time. Yeah. And just like the ideas come and go, the shirts will come and go every month. You got one shot to get one of these shirts. And they're gone.

Anyway, jocococor.com, that's where you can jump on that. If you want, also on jocco store.com, you can get the discipline equals freedom, good. All this stuff, shirts, hats, hoodies. There's some cool stuff on there. So, yeah, if you want something, get something. It makes sense to me. You can subscribe to this podcast, too, if you haven't done that, wherever you subscribe to podcasts.

I also got some other podcast, Jocko Unravelling with Daryl Cooper, which used to be called The Thread. Now it's called Jocko Unraveling. Also Grounded Podcast, also Warrior Kid podcast. We also have a YouTube channel where Echo gets to manifest his little video fantasies. You will always say that in him and good. But when you think about it, YouTube channel, you're talking about enhanced videos. videos that we at some point started calling enhanced.

Okay, maybe I made that up. But either way, they're not that many of them. They're all just like the video version of this podcast and some excerpts of this podcast. So technically the YouTube channel is, that's more you than anything. So, you know, I'm just saying you put it on me a lot. So I'm just saying it's kind of both of us. I don't know. It's sort of the outlet for your stuff, though, kind of.

Yeah, I guess that's kind of true. I don't see your stuff being out. You haven't written any books yet. That's true. Do you have a podcast? I guess you have this podcast. Technically, yeah, I guess. No, that's true because, yes, if I want to express myself in any capacity creatively,

yeah, where is it going to land? It's going to land on the YouTube channel. Like me, I'm over writing songs. I'm over playing guitar. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. Art, I'm painting, I'm drawing. I'm writing books. I'm just all, but video, that's your realm.

I let you do that. Yeah. You make a video or two every once in a while, which is good. Who I do? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Check. All right.

Nonetheless, yes. Okay, so I understand now. I understand what you're saying, and you're correct, and I am corrected. And I understand that fully. And I accept that. Also, psychological warfare. It's an album. You know, you're talking about you make music sometimes.

You're just making albums. Yeah, there you go. So this is one of them. Anyway, this is not a music one, though. This is Jocco helping you with each track. Identify and help you overcome any weakness that might that you might encounter So that one is one of those things that's helpful, but it's 100% effective Check.

Also, we have a visual form of that flipside canvas.com Dakota Meyer making all kinds of cool stuff to hang on your wall Got a bunch of books the books today I read from on the ground we also have a cross-the-fence Sog Chronicles all those three by John Stryker Meyer Tilt and also whiskey tango Foxtrot by Lynn Black these are are some of the SOG books that are just awesome about faced by Colonel David Hackworth. I wrote the forward to that. It's available now. Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual.

The code, the evaluation of the protocols, discipline equals freedom field manual. Way of the Warrior Kid for Freedom Field Manual is out right now. You can better order that ASAP if you want it for Christmas. Mike and the Dragon, actually anything you want for Christmas, order it right now. Right now. That's my encouragement to you. Because otherwise it's not going to be there by Christmas. You got all these, everyone's ordering everything

and delivery people and delivery planes and delivery trucks are short. They're going to run out. So your package is going to be sitting in a warehouse somewhere and your kid's going to be crying. And why are they crying? Two reasons. Number one, they don't have warrior kid.

Number two, they don't have warrior kid because if they did, they wouldn't be crying about it. That's true. They would put their emotions in check. So you might want to check that out. And also extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership. Eschelonfront is my leadership consultant.

So you go to Eshalonfront.com if you want help with your leadership. EF online, where we are training leadership online all the time. Go to EFonline.com. If you want to ask me a question or you want to figure out some leadership problem that you have, come and ask us. Muster 2020, I'll let you know about the dates for Muster 2021.

That's where we're heading. EF Overwatch, if you need people inside your organization that understand the principles we talk about here, go to eFoverwatch.com. We will supply you with military personnel who are ready for their civilian job to go out and lead. And if you want to help service members,

active duty and retired families, Gold Star families, if you want to help out in a bunch of different ways, then check out Mark Lee's mom. Her name is Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. And if you want to donate or do you want to get involved,

go to America. Marica's mighty warriors.org. And listen, if you seek personal internal agony, it's what you want. What you want is to cause pain to yourself, and we can deliver. You can get more of my lackluster allocations. Or if you need more of, I think this one's good. If you need more of echoes inexplicable explanations. Semi-explicable.

That you can find us on the interwebs. Twitter, Instagram, which, just so Echo knows what I'm talking about when I say Instagram, I know you only refer to as the gram. And on Facebook, Echoes at Echo Charles. I am at Jokal Willick. And most important, John Stryker Meyer is on Instagram at J. Stryker Meyer. And thanks once again to Captain On for taking the time to share his experiences with us. and more importantly for risking his life over and over and over again for his brothers on the ground

and for freedom. And thanks to every one of you out there in every branch of service Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, and to all of our allies that have stood by us on the battlefield to protect the sacred ideal of freedom. Thank you. And thanks to those of you in uniform on the home front, police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all the first responders.

Thank you for keeping us safe here at home. And to everyone else out there, think of Captain-on. Think of taking care of others. Think of recognizing the risk of his mission. Going into an area where they had already lost helicopters and deciding at the moment. moment of truth that he would just go with one other man so as to save as many lives as possible a decision which for him was perfectly logical and as he said no big deal when the call came

he went and we all should do the same go till next time the zecho out