Jocko Podcast - 292: The Secret to Life is Don't Quit. With Admiral Joe Maguire.

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

0:00:00 - Opening0:05:34 - Admiral Joe Maguire2:28:12 - How to stay on THE PATH.2:50:50 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 292 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening. Good evening. August 2nd, 2006 was the worst day of my life. Ryan Job had been gravely wounded by a single enemy round that hit his weapon as he looked down its sights and then ripped into his face, rendering him blind and critically injured. And then soon after Ryan was wounded, Mark Lee, who had stepped into the enemy line of fire to engage the enemy and protect his teammates while assaulting a building was shot and killed. Mark was a larger than life character in every aspect. Smart, athletic, charismatic, charming, talented, talented, tough.

and also hilarious and faithful and loyal and obviously brave now he was gone and in task unit Bruiser we closed ranks to get through it we celebrated his life we mourned his loss and then we loaded him on his last flight home his angel flight and we got support from our chain of command from my commanding officer at seal team three our command master the operations master chief and the rest of SEAL Team 3 backed us up and assisted us as we worked through this devastation but it didn't stop there I got a I got a call in my tactical operation center it was from Admiral Joe McGuire the senior SEAL officer in charge of in charge of all of naval special warfare in charge of the SEAL teams in charge of the boat teams

in charge of the training center in charge of everything. And I had previously worked for him directly for 13 months as his aide to camp, and I knew how busy he was, and I knew what his daily schedule was like, and I knew the demands that were upon him. But I also knew that he cared. He cared deeply about the SEAL teams. He cared about his SEALs, and he cared about me.

And he called to check in with me, and to check on me. And when he called, he told me that he was reviewing the Silver Star that I had submitted for Mark, and he was about to send it directly to the chief of naval operations for a signature based on my recommendation.

He told me that he was sorry for our loss, and he assured me that he would take care of Mark's family. He also told me that we were doing the right thing. And to keep doing it to keep taking the fight to the enemy to keep eliminating enemy fighters to keep protecting the local populace to keep the pressure on because the war wasn't over and the enemy wasn't going to stand down. We still had work to do and he knew that and so did I and that meant a lot to know that the Admiral in charge of all the seals was there for us was there for Mark was there for Mark was there for Mark. family about three months later October 21st 2006 my plane landed at Naval Air Station North Island with the last members of task unit bruiser to come home and Admiral McGuire was there to welcome us home to be sure that we were okay because he cared about his seals he cared about his troops and that meant a lot and and soon I was

hugging my wife and kids on the tarmac but even as I embraced my family I knew I hadn't brought all my men home and that that burden will always be present but it helped to know that leaders like Admiral McGuire were there we're there to help shoulder that burden to support us to take care of the families of our fallen and it's an honor tonight to have Admiral Joseph McGuire here with us to share some of his experiences and lessons learned from his 36 years of military service and his experiences in the civilian sector. Admiral, thank you for coming by. Jocko, it's an honor to be with you. That really is. It's been entirely too long since you and I've been together.

We've been through an awful lot together, but it's an honor to be with you and an absolute honor to be with you on this podcast. So thank you so much for those kind words and thank you for the warm welcome. Well, I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit more. But to start off with, let's start at the beginning, which I believe is in Brooklyn. That's where you were born, right? You got a problem with that? No, Jocco, forget about it. That's where I'm from.

Yeah, you know, America's fourth largest city. Four million people. That was a street rat, you know. Grew up in New York City. And, you know, people don't understand that actually Brooklyn is on long. Island. So I spent my time in the ocean. I started surfing when I was 16 with the money that I bought my first surfboard with the money I got from shoveling snow. That's pre-wetsuits, or at least pre-good wetsuits. Well, they were loose, you know. But I'll tell you this, though, Jacco, when I went to

Buds and folks out there, I'm sure you know this from listening to Jacco's podcast, but, you know, when you show up, they shave your head completely bald. And, uh, When I had my head shaved by the instructors, all of a sudden, they were calling each other over to take a look at my skull. It's clearly a city kid. I had three concussions, but, yeah, no. But between growing up in Brooklyn and going to Catholic school, the sealed instructors were absolutely nothing to do with that.

What'd your parents do? Well, my dad was a World War II veteran. What do you do in World War II? He was military police. So my father was in Patton's Third Army, which until the day he died was the proudest thing he ever did in his life. But, you know, war was different back then, that my father was there, but, I mean, everybody was there. My uncles were there, flight surgeons, and they went to war together. And he spent about, he actually joined the Army in 1940 before the war started.

Came home from Europe after being deployed for four years. And in the end of July and married my mother a week and a half later. They've been engaged. And on the 15th of August, he was shipping out to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. And so fortunately, he didn't have to go and do that. But my father then joined the reserves after that, and he spent 30 years in the United States military. And my brother Ben spent 26 years in the Navy as a Supply Corps officer.

He retired. And my other brother, Bob, was an enlisted guy for six years as well. And when I took my uniform off in July of 2010, it was the first time in 70 years that an immediate member of my family was not wearing the cloth of the nation. So then I could say we haven't won them all, but the Miguires were in. integral in winning the Cold War. There's absolutely no doubt about that. So you're going up to high school.

Did you play any other sports besides surfing? No, I swam. Yeah, no, I was a swimmer, and it's one of those things. Not so much in high school, but I would say if it wasn't for swimming, I never would have gotten a bachelor's degree. So the season would go in the fall into the winter, and I would, you know, be on the dean's list. while I was swimming and disciplined.

Well, you know about discipline. You teach you the whole time. But once the swimming season took a lapse, so did I. And I just kind of got by in the spring semester. But nope, I swam for my college. I was the captain of the college team, and I also swam for the New York Athletic Club. And be honest with you,

I thought, like most New Yorkers, that I was going to just live and die in New York City. So being a member of the New York Athletic Club, we were all on scholarship. And the New York Athletic Club, they just took the top swimmers from all of the colleges and put us together after the college season,

and back then it was AAU. And we'd have a swimming practice at the New York Athletic Club. We'd have to go in coat and tie to practice. But it was right next to Central Park South. But we had a stipend credit card for X amount of dollars a month. So after swimming practice, we went down to the bar.

To refuel. Oh, it is. So over the course of a couple of years for the New Yorkerty Club, I'm graduating from college, and there were a couple of businessmen that I knew there, and they said, Joe, we want to take you to dinner. Okay. So we're at dinner in one of the steakhouses in Manhattan, and, you know, my friend made the pitch. He said, we want you to come into the advertising firm. Well, you know, guys, I'm not even a business major.

He said, what is it that you want me to do? Joe, all we want you to do is entertain the clients. We'll teach you the business. I could do that, man. So, you know, I'm getting ready to be a madman. And I'm going into Madison Avenue. My brother is it. What year is this?

This is 1974. So when you were growing up, I mean, Vietnam is going on. My brothers served Vietnam. Yeah. Both my brothers. and obviously, you know, I had to make that decision, either graduate from college or, you know, go into Vietnam as an enlisted guy, but my father being a colonel and my other said, look, you're not to just,

I mean, you know, you were enlisted man yourself. That's the hardest part, but in Vietnam, it's the NCOs that are the military, and it's the NCOs that do the fighting and dying. But my father encouraged me to finish college and then go, if you really want to go into the service, you know, then go in with your college. degree. So I graduated in 1974, but the war was over by then. And so my brother, from my father, I heard that I was going to go into Madison Avenue. So he was stationed here in San Diego on the USS Ranger and flew to New York City and arranged for an officer candidate school test

for me. And I did not participate in this decision. So I was sitting at the kitchen table. And my father goes, Ben, what do you want to tell your brother? You're going to take the test for Officer Canada School tomorrow. He's five years old. My father's looking at me. Okay. You know? So, I mean, so I went down there.

Now, keep in mind, I'm swimming. I got hair down to my shoulders back then. It's all bleached blonde from the chlorine. And so I go down and I take the test, which are like the SATs. And I'm very deliberate. actually slow. There were a lot of big words that I had to sound out the test, you know? And so you turn the paper in, and they graded the paper and debriefed the individual based on, and I was one of the very last ones to finish. And it was a crummy office there in Manhattan. It was downtown Manhattan, right by City Hall.

And only how it was the little crummy office dividers that, you know, it's like 18 inches below and it only goes up about four and a half feet. And they got folding chairs on the other side. And you can hear, everything on the other side. So they're bringing them in and the guy sits down and says, well, you know, Mr. Smith, you could take the test again next year. Oh gee, Mr. Brown, you could take the test again. So nobody was

passed to the test. So I'm there I said to my brother, I don't think I passed. He said, well, we'll see. So I go in and I sit down and the recruiters go, so Joe, you want to join the Navy? No, man. I just took the test. My brother smacks me in the head.

He goes, you're joining the Navy. Okay. And the recruiters are looking at me. He's like, what do you want to do? Now, my brother was a supply corps officer. He wants to be a supply corps officer. So, yeah, that's what I wanted to. So they look at the score, and they look at my brother.

This is my brother's proudest moment. Your little brother didn't score high enough. He can't be a supply corps officer. So, and I said, well, what do you want to do? I mean, this has only been about 15 hours. So I got the wheels turning, and now back then we were doing the Apollo recoveries. And the astronauts would land in the water, and sometimes the recovery carrier wasn't there. They had, so they had these B-roll human interest stories.

So recently, there was a human interest story about the recovery, and there were two seals, you know, and who were on the Olympic team. Now, I was not on the Olympic team, not at that caliber, but because they were, I knew of them. And one was in SEAL Team 1, and one was in UDT 13. And they did a human interest story on the SEALs. And now, keep in mind, Chaco, this is 1974. We have less than 800 people in the community.

Nobody knows what it is. And they said, so what do you want to do? You know what I want to do? I want to be in UDT and SEAL team. Give them a hard one, right? So the two of them, I mean, they're just looking like, now these guys were aviators and surface warfare guys. So they just turned to my brother.

They said, well, we'll be back. So now they went back for about 10 minutes. It was probably like, you know, buying a car where I got to go talk to my manager. They go back 10 minutes later. They talk to my brother. And meanwhile, my brother hasn't sat down. He's still standing over me.

And I'm sitting in the chair because I was told to sit. and they talked to my brothers first, and they turned to me, they say, well, sorry, Joe, but there's no commission officers in the UDSAIL team. And I proceeded to tell them, that's BS, but I didn't say BS, right? And, of course, my brother smacks me in the head again,

and he goes, Joe, they wouldn't lie to you. Now, here I'm a civilian, and I'm turning to my brother, I go, they're recruiters. That's what they do, you know. And they were lying. They were lying to me, as you know. So I wound up going to surface warfare, to the USS Coronado,

and I spent time on that to become a surface warfare officer before I got to Coronado, California to become a seal, and I will tell you this, that the demanding life on board ship, by the time I got to Bud's training, I thought that was good duty.

And when guys were quitting, I was putting my arm around them and give them a counseling session. It's just like, you don't know what it's like out there. Look, we got a mini-mart down the street. life is good Did you have to go to OCS?

I did. Is that what you did? I did. Yeah. How was that shock and awe experience? Well, you know, you realized like in the first couple of days that you've been duped. It's five o'clock in the morning and they're waking you up and you've got to be outside in five minutes and your PT gear PTing.

Come on. You know? So, no, that was a great experience, actually. And it was the beginning. it was a tremendous maturation start for me to actually join the military, go to OCS, have drill instructors teaching you. They had expectations. They had standards. And then also, you know, you were measured and you had to live up to something. And really, it was transformational for me. And I wound up doing pretty well in OCS and did well on board the ship.

And, you know, by the time I got to, you know, Bud's class 93, we had as a usual bit. You know, we started off with 147 guys in the class and finished with 17, and I was standing there. And, you know, be honest with you, Chaco, nobody, but nobody was more surprised that I wound to be in the honor man. Because I told Kathy, but I was married. Oh, you were the honor man.

Oh, yeah. But, I mean, I told Kathy, I mean, we came back from San Clemente, She goes, how you doing? They're going to catch up to me this week. I know I'm going to get canned this week. You know, you just never know it until you graduate. And when they announced who the Honor Man was, it was just kind of like, it must be some mistake, you know.

But, yeah, so that was a great experience. As you know, Bud's is a defining thing, and Hell Week is a defining thing for all of us. But the one thing about that is it all starts there, it all shapes it. And, you know, every one of us, whether you are the admiral, which is folks in Ramadi and Falun,

or the guys in Ramadi in Fallujah, whether you are the guy with stars in his collar or the guy with chevrons on his collar, we all wear the same warfare insignia. There is no difference between a SEAL officer and a SEAL enlisted man as far as what he had to do to earn that. Now, the career is different over the time, but it's one thing that we all understand. It was the crucible. It's a defining thing. And you go through that and, you know, it starts your journey. That doesn't really make you a seal.

When you get your tried and pinned on you, that's your beginning of learning how to really become a seal. And I'll tell you, until the day I took off my uniform, I learned every single day. And as you know, the saying goes, you've got to earn it every single day. Was there anything at Buds that was hard for you? Because if you were a collegiate swimmer, the swims must have been like a joke for you. Yeah. Next question. What about run?

Were you a good runner? Oh, no. No, so that's the point that really, really upset me, Chaco, is that Bud's as a running club. It's not a swimming club. But that is what saved me. Because I don't think I ever told you this either, but I wound up with a broken leg in third phase.

So a severe stress fracture. And, you know, I was not a bad runner. We were up there at the third phase. We probably had about 20 guys, 24 guys in the class, and I was up in the top five, whenever finished time runs or, you know, when you do your run, and that's run back to the compound, do you run your own. But I was having a lot of trouble, and I didn't know what it was.

By a lot of trouble, I'm 10 minutes behind the class and the class run, but I'm running. And, you know, you know, the instructors watch this stuff. So back then we did not have the facilities and the help that our young, candidates have. And we had an E6 Corman. And he told me, he said, I want you to come in. I had to leave the class. No, we're well into third phase. We hadn't gone to the island yet. But he said, I want you to go across the street and get an x-ray. Yes, instructor. That's always the right answer. So I come hobbling out of the third phase office and the senior enlisting guy, Senior Chief

Johnny Johnson, outside smoking a cigarette like any good seal back. And all of a sudden he says, Mr. McGuire, stop. You know, and when his instructor tells you to stop, you stop, he said, get over here. So I go over to me. He says, where are you going? I said, well, Senior Chief, I'm going across the street for an x-ray. No, you're not. Of course, I'm not. Of course, I'm not. Senior Chief. He goes, what's up? I said, well, you know, I got a little trouble. He says, I tell you what, Mr. Mack, you got a broken leg. He said, there's no doubt in my mind, you got a broken leg. So here's the deal. You go back in there, you put your medical record in there. I'm not going to any guarantees, but if you're willing to gut it out, we'll see what

we can do. Yes, Senior Chief. And so went back in there, and I actually, you know, was able to, I was always behind in the runs, but I was able to hop on the obstacle course and still finish in the top five in that, because that's all technique. But we used to run, as you know, Chaco, from the compound down to the center, center beach in Coronado, which is probably a little over a mile. Something like that, yeah. And then in the water. So I would be the last one in the water by light years, but I would be the first one out of the water.

So at least the instructors knew that, hey, I'm putting out. But the other thing I think that they were thoroughly entertained that they really didn't want me out of the class. But, you know, the folks who are out there, instructors are the ones that really they are the gatekeepers for who's going to wind up going to a SEAL team. And they are instructors for just a limited period of time, and then they go back to the SEAL team,

and the young men that they're training are going to become their teammates. So for the most part, they're sizing them up, not only to meet the standards, but also to kind of say, is this somebody that I want to be a teammate with, and if I get into the trouble, and I'm a left, I've got one of these guys in my left and my right. And I think that even if I was having a difficult time there,

I was most fortunate to have good instructors. And back then, I mean, everybody was a Vietnam veteran. Everybody, everybody had a silver star. And I was blessed to have a Medal of Honor recipient as one of my instructors, Mike Thornton. And that helped shape me as well, more ways than one. But these guys had known the crucible of combat, and they were looking at students,

and nobody really cared if nobody graduated back then. But they were looking at, you know, can we trust this guy in combat? And I think that was the standard. But I have to say, in retrospect, it wasn't me. It was the instructors that really showed me tremendous kindness. But, you know, just it was not easy being able to do the stuff that we needed to do at the end of training. There was a class. It must have been just before, wasn't it

a class 85 or 86 where literally no one made it? That's correct. What class? Do you know what class number of that was? I don't, but I think you're close. But the other one was Admiral Eric Olson's class wound up with four people in Hellweek. And the instructors, had to help them carry the IBS because four guys couldn't carry an IBS, and the instructor's made up their mind. We're never going to let... You're going to keep at least six. There's got to be at least six guys here to get through the week.

But yeah, Eric had four guys. His graduation picture, and one of the students is a foreign student in his class. So three Americans and one foreign guy. But it was a different time back then. But, you know, the instructors had to the back of their ball cap, we made them quit. So there were standards, but they pretty much were on their own

as far as what they wanted to do. But I'll be honest with you. These are instructors that I had tremendous respect for and respect for their combat experience, and they were great instructors because they were intense, and if you didn't have the standard, even if you were making the standard,

and it was tough to see a classmate go, but in retrospect, you know, were right. This guy would not have fit in to us. But yeah. And then, so graduating and then off to Jump School, which was always. Airborne. Yeah, that's it. You know, one week cost, crammed into three. So you hit airborne school. I'm sure it was the challenge to keep your, I'm sure there's a lot of challenges at airborne school for you. I can imagine the runs were not as challenging as trying to control your mouth, talking to the Army folks. No. I got called into the colonel a couple of times.

So actually, for those of you out there have been through Fort Benning, you understand this. You know, the Army is a little bit different than the SEAL teams to some degree. And they'd have an evolution, and then what they would do is they would have the class line up, and you go online and you'd pick up trash. And these guys are walking, picking up trash, and the black hats said, Mr. McGuire, what are you doing? You're supposed to be picking up trash?

I'm not picking up trash. I'm not going to pick up trash. Off to see the car. Okay? So I'm at the colonel. You know, I'm standing there attention, puts me at parade rest. What's up?

I said, well, Colonel, I'm a commissioner office in the United States Navy. did you ever see Bridge on the River Kwai? Yeah, what's that got to do with it? I said, do you remember when the colonel wound up in the cooler because they were making his officers work because it was a violation of the Geneva Convention? And he's looking at me, I said,

so to have your commission officers picking up trash, you realize that you've got a violation of the Geneva Convention. So he threw me out of his office, but me and the other seal officers with me did not have to pick up trash. Oh, God. Oh, that's insane. All right.

So you get done with Airborne School. And then it's off to what? UDT.T. 21. Off to UDT.21. So it was underwater demolition team 21. But just like in seal training, all of the guys there for the modern out. There were guys there from the Korean War who just stayed UDT. They went to Vietnam as UDT.

But they were former SEAL Team 2 guys. So we had SEAL Team 2 and UDT21, and they went back and forth. So you wind up getting five or six jumps at Basic Airborne. And then we had a jump schedule shortly after I got back to the team from Fort Benning. And we went up to Fort Lee to do because in the teams back then, you get your 10th jump, and you had to buy a keg of beer. So they got the lieutenant J.G, the nugget there, who's, So they're going to get me four jumps today. And so it was an old UH1, Vietnam, single engine,

and they take the doors, put them all the way back, and you're sitting there. This is a static line jump, and they take your static line, and they hook you into a cable just below the transmission on the helicopter. And you sit with your legs outside the helicopter, and there's just a little tape that goes across you. And you get on board at first,

and the aircraft is not doing any turns up. So then the aircraft commander starts doing the turn-up, and the helicopter starts racking back and forth. And all of a sudden, I look around now, these are all senior enlisted guys, and they, one by one, take their teeth out of their mouth and put it in their pocket to the jump. I was the only one in the stick of eight

that actually had teeth in his mouth when we went out there, and I'm thinking to myself, what did I get into? Is this in the UDT or are they hockey players? So, well, make a long story short, it was a long day, but I bought a cake of beer at the end of that day. And then what was the, what did you do at UDT21? What were you doing for deployments?

Were there shipboard deployments? Yeah, there was shipboard deployments. It made quite a few deployments to the Caribbean. You know, back then we had a much more robust fleet. So we actually made Caribbean deployments, European deployments, Northern European deployments. So I made several Caribbean deployments and South American deployments, but in addition to that, we also had time to be able to go to schools.

And, you know, just to some of our CIA schools and these other things in regard to, you know, how to do targeting and really, it was all explosives. It was underwater demolition, and CIA were really good at their combat, kitchen demolition and these other things. I also then at that point in time, Jocko, with some courses, decided to take some intelligence courses and just kind of, well, I think that Intel and Naval Special Warfare kind of go hand in the glove. So I want to learn as much as I can about the intelligence community while I'm there. But I had an opportunity to, you know, be a department head there as well, and then, you know, be in charge of a UDT platoon, which back then was, you know, 25 men. So it was good.

And of course, my chief and my LPO, you know, both of those guys who got silver stars, and, you know, school was in session. You know, you're in charge as the officer. There is absolutely no doubt about it. But you better know what you don't know and be willing to listen to those who do. And these guys very lovingly, I mean, sincerely, took me under their wing and adopted me. And I'll be honest with you, even back then, Rudy Bosch, who was the command master chief at SEAL Team 2, he became the command master chief in 1962 and left in 1987. You know, you know, ballhawks, but I mean, you know, Rudy.

But even if I was in UD.T, my OPO and my chiefs, who were SEAL Team 2 guys, that's how I met Rudy. and Rudy and his wife then mentored Kathy and me until, you know, we were close friends until he, you know, started suffering from Alzheimer's disease. But it doesn't hurt to be a young officer who wasn't in Vietnam, you know, to have these folks here who take you under their wing and teach you. And the best thing that was not necessarily the operational things, but I think the thing that I owe them most for, Jocko, it's like a two o'clock in the morning when they put their own. Mom or am, he say, it's time to go home, sir. Time to go back. Thank you. The New York kicked in that.

New York comes out around 2 o'clock in the morning after X number of beers. So you did met, so you were married to Kathy before you went to butts. Absolutely. Well, I tell you what. You know, people ask, well, you know, where did you honeymoon? Cornado, California? No, so. So it's kind of interesting that, you know, I was on the ship and were deployed to the Mediterranean.

I held orders to buds. And I came home, flew in on a Mac flight into Philadelphia. Kathy lived in New Jersey. And I went to see her first. Now, this is a dangerous thing. Clearly, I've been overpaid all my life. And at that point in time, I was making the princely sum of $8,000. But when you transfer a piece,

you're able to take what's called it advanced pay, which is sort of an interest-free loan, except you've got to pay it back. So I don't know what I got. I probably got $1,200 or whatever. So now I'm in New York, walking down Fifth Avenue with my honey, and we walk into Tiffany's, and I say, let's get engaged. So she picks out a ring. I get engaged in Tiffany's. We get married two weeks later. We go in a short honeymoon to St. Croix, come back, pack up the car, and drive out to seal training. And it's kind of a shock when you go off to work one day and you come back after the instructors have shaved your hand.

What happened to my boy? But I will tell you this. yeah, I mean, it was a different thing back then. People didn't know about seal training, but it was helpful to me to be married during that time frame. But as I said, later on, years on, when we went through so much stuff that she'd been there from day one, and she understood the community, she understood how the community was built, and people even today rely heavily on her for that. But yeah, it's not something I would recommend for everybody to be honeymoaning as you're going through seal training.

But we did. God bless her. Well, the thing about it is that neither of us had any idea we're getting into, you know. Yeah, you must have known very little about seal training back then. Yeah. I mean, even I, when I went through, I went through in 1991. you won. And I had seen one, you know, the be someone special video. That's it. There were no internet. There was no books talking about it. Now, I mean, there's so much information out there. You can watch all of buds and guys know what the schedule is going to be and all that.

Back then it was just blind. They just ripped the blindfold off you and shave your head. That's it. Oh, yeah. So fast forward 20 years. And now I'm the commander, uh, commanding officer of the Naval Special Warfare Center of Buds. So, um, uh, Kathy comes to meet me for lunch. We're going to go out to Coronado and have some lunch. And I'm on the telephone. You know, she comes to the office, and the secretary says, you know, he'll be with you in a few minutes. So she's standing on the balcony, overlooking the grinder, as the instructors are motivating.

This is how we speak. A first phase class, right? And so come out, off we go, go to lunch, sitting there at lunch. Now, we've been married 20 years, went through training with me. and she said, I need to ask you a question. Yeah, what, sweetheart? Did you have to do that when you went through training? No.

I said, sweetie, even then, they knew 20 years later I was going to be the commanding officer of this place. Of course I did that. I'm so sorry, because I'd come home and she'd go, let's go to dinner. Okay. So how long did you do at UDT21? I did, I did, I guess about two and a half years, maybe three years. And then back then, we were, for the longest period of time, we got decimated after Vietnam.

I mean, not just UDT, but the whole community. So we only... Well, the whole Navy. You didn't it safe to say the whole Navy and the whole military after Vietnam? Yes, that's true. But then the target was Russia. And we were going to handle Russia with the ballistic, with the nuclear triad. Got it.

Right? And so if you're not part of the nuclear triad, although I was in a nuclear weapons program in UDT. We had to deliver the B-54 Saddam. And so we had three-06s then. That's it. And the three of them got together and decided that we needed to send some junior officers out into the fleet as flag lie lieutenants.

And so now this is always a bad sign when I'm deployed down to the Caribbean and the XO, Tom Richards. Tom Richards comes down. to vis, I've hit that this is odd, the XO is kind of, so he spent the day with us, doesn't say anything, and we're flying back up to Norfolk on a C-9, we've got the whole plane to ourselves, and I'm sitting against the window, and the XO comes and sits next to me. I mean, I'm a popular guy, I know that, but, you know, and I think I knew something was up.

He goes, hey, Joe, have you ever thought about being a flag lieutenant? No, sir. No, you seriously think about that? No, sir. And I tried to be persuasive to him and said, look, I was in the fleet for a couple of years. I'm in UDT right now. I need to get, you know, after this, I got to go to a SEAL team. He says, well, the Commodore wants to see you tomorrow, right?

This was Storm and Norman Olson, who got bused and we just had a memorial service for Norman. And really, he's one of the guys that shaped this. He said, you're going to be a flag lieutenant's as simple as that. Yes, Commodore. So I wound up going to Japan as a flag lieutenant and wound up working for the first Admiral that made a helicopter pilot that made Admiral, and he made all of the Apollo recoveries. And every day was a space mission for me with this guy here. It had to be exacting it.

And we're driving along one day, and he goes, I'm going to make you the best flag lieutenant in Seventh Fleet, even if it kills you. And I turned to him, I goes, sir, you're well on your way. But I will tell you this, you learn, you learn, as you know, you're learned. But the interesting thing is, now, I endured myself to all of the admins out there. And we had the fleet readiness board up in Yakuoka, hosted by the 7th Fleet Commander. So there's about 13, 14 admirals there. And at breakfast, you know, they sit there together and all of us bag carriers.

we go off to the side, and as I'm walking by with my tray, the fleet commander goes, hey, Joe, come join us. It would be an honor. What's wrong with this picture, right? So they went around the table, and they're telling me that, and this was really true with the time, you can't go back to SEAL team right now. Your surface warfare officer, you've got tremendous potential. If you go back into the SEAL teams, you will never, ever,

ever get promoted. This was in 1981. And true, at that time, most of the commanding offices of SEAL teams will lieutenant commanders pass over for commander. We only had a handful of captains, and there was no real career path, you know, for that. But I told them, I said, well, look, I'm going.

And the only advice they gave me then, well, go to PG school. Okay, that was a good trade-off. But that was true at that time. And, you know, backing up a little bit about my father being a colonel in the reserves, he said the same thing back then. That, you know, you'll have a couple of good years, but, you know, you'll never be promoted past Lieutenant Commander. It's as simple as that. And, you know, I went to his grave one time and put my three-star shoulder boards on his tombstone. So that's, how long are you doing that job as the aid, the flag aide?

A hundred years. I know the feeling. No, that was 25 months, but I will tell you, I'll tell you, Jaco, one of the best things about that, I mean, sincerely, is that I was the aid for CTF 76, and a young, a first lieutenant named Joe Dunford was the aid for CTF 79. And Joe and I spent 25 months together in the Pacific traveling everywhere together. And then after we both finished that tour, you know, Joe, during the course of our careers, we stayed close. And we'd see each other on deployment. He's a battalion commander.

He wound up, you know, being the speechwriter for the commandant and a lot of other jobs that well deserve. But it was actually Joe Dunford and Jim Mattis that asked me to come back into government. And I hate them both for that. No, but the thing about it is with both those guys of two men that I hold in the very highest esteem. And I also figured, well, you know, General Mattis, Secretary Mattis came back into government and Joe's been there for 39 years. And, you know, I just said to them, well, if you guys are taking one for the team, I'll give it a go. We'll see how it goes.

But I just could not say no to those two men. Right. But just want an honor. And then to actually get into the administration and be the dream. and be the Director of National Intelligence sitting at the National Security Council meeting with Joe Dunford to my right, it's a small world, and you just don't know.

But you didn't take their advice and you did go back to the SEAL team. That was your next tour? I did, I did, as a matter of fact. And so the journey continues. So I went into SEAL Team 2, and at that time, commander Rick Woolard was the commander,

officer of SEAL Team 2. And rightfully so, he wanted to develop an undersea capability. So we wound up, now, to be honest with you back then, we were not very good. We had good swimmers, we had good athletes, we had rotten equipment, we didn't have techniques and procedures, we really didn't know what we didn't know. And Rick through our senior officers and the chief and naval operations, were able to establish a personal exchange program, pep billet, and bring over a French commando from Commander Ubert. And in my estimation, Commander Ubeer are the best combat divers in the world, military combat divers.

And Francois was charged with establishing a combat swimmer program that to this day was the most arduous program that I'd ever been through. and extremely high attrition rate, but not everybody could do it, but not everybody could swim oxygen either. But in addition to that program, then Rick also, you know, looking back on this, it seems hard to believe,

get permission to buy foreign sales things. So we were able to, the first was to get the Dregor, the German, and then we, of course, the Dregor Lifejacket's French. And, you know, there was a prohibition against that because it would buy American, but it was the best technical,

undersea combat swimmer. stuff that we had. And we did extremely hard work up, and I was just most fortunate that, you know, I had a department head tour there and then a platoon commander. And in October of 1982, we just got fast ropes. So hard to believe. And fast ropes were classified, insertion means. And we got it from the British S.A.S. used. Spend a night not a fortune. So we're up at AP Hill, and Rudy Bosch brings the rope up. We got a helicopter. And we're doing, first we're doing, Rudy is the rappel master. He's the rope master. Talks to us about this. Now, I used to be on the ship, you know, as a deck officer, so I know lines and stuff. So I said,

hey, Rudy, what's the 10th will strengthen this? How many can hold? Don't worry about it, so hold your whole platoon, forget it, you know? If that was Rudy, right? So, now Rudy at this point, he's probably knocking at the door to 60. So we did a couple of runs, and he's the first one out. And then after about four or five runs, I'd just say, he must achieve, this isn't too damn hard.

You know, we can figure out how to curl a rope and throw it out with the helicopter flares. All right? So he sits this one out. And so my chief, Bud Dennyhy, is going to do it. I'm following Bud. And I've got four or five knuckleheads, you know, behind me. And we go out and for some reason or another, you know,

Bud, the operative word is fastrope. So he's just kind of going slow. And then all of a sudden, I don't know what was going on. I thought the helicopter was crashing. And I just knew that I was in free fall. And, you know, getting back into Fort Benning, I kind of criticized a little bit there. But the thing that saved me is just go into a good PLF. I put my legs together.

I put my arms in. And for one brief second, I avoided the chief below me, and I hit. And for one nanosecond, I go, I'm good. Then I had five big frogmen land on top of it. So I broke my back, and that broke my pelvis. So we're all lying there as a bunch of... rag dogs, and it's dead silence. I still don't know what happened.

So obviously when the rope broke, the helicopter went up because of no longer had that weight, and then he just flared it and went off. But all I could hear then was, you know, my teammates, my platoon, everybody just kind of quietly moaning. And I just say to the guys, don't anybody move, right? And then he goes, Mr. McGuire, we can. You know? And then all of a sudden I realized, I can't move my legs.

And so typical back then, our ambulance was a nine-passenger van, and the only thing we had on the LZ was one bodyboard. So we had to have ambulances come in. So I got rigor taped to the bodyboard, you know, with your head down and just so that your spine's not moving. But every time they moved you, it was like with the pelvis, it was like cracking your knuckles. You know, you could hear, you know.

And then the helicopter goes back in this land, so the colonel from AP Hill comes, and typical back then, we never told them we were doing air ops, which he did not think was a good idea. But he directed the helicopter pilot to take us to Mary Washington Hospital, which is close up there, the closest trauma hospital.

And so there were five of us loaded into the helicopter. And, you know, I'm a lieutenant, these guys lieutenants and I said to the pilot command you know meanwhile I'm strapped to the body board I said take us home I said take us to Portsmouth I said we're going to be in the hospital for a long time I said I don't my wife have my wife in a motel and I said you know just going to take a little bit more but take us to Portsmouth Naval Hospital so we flew there and you know we got taken in and taken off and you know they cut your uniform off and do all this stuff but as we're waiting for x-rays, we're all in this little waiting room together.

The other guys in wheelchairs, and there were two of us with broken backs, and one guy, Kevin Blake, Kevin wound up breaking both of his legs, but when he came down, he then hit, but his face went into his knees. But we still didn't know what was what. so we had one corpsman from the hospital helping us out and Kevin says man my nose is so stuffy he says hey doc do you have a tissue can I have a tissue so the corpsman gets him a tissue and Kevin blows his nose

but he broke all of his sinuses in his face and his whole face came away from you know from the skull and we're all laughing like her and the Corman just running out. It was like a Jim Carrey movie there. His faces out to hear. We got broken bones and broken backs. We're all laughing.

You know, always look for the bright side of life, right? Yeah. So what everyone eventually was able to heal up? No, no permanent injuries? No, no. A couple of those guys left. But it was a different time back then. I'm sorry to say that I wound up being admitted into an officer room with

some retired Navy captain, but the troops wound up being on a ward. And there were probably 20 patients on the ward to include some sailor who had been in a motorcycle accident, and he's on a rotissary. But it's pretty much a death watch. So George M. Craven and Kathy, the two of them were the very best of friends. and as you know, Bill and I are best of friends. And they come to visit me. Now, Kathy's, of course, have been with me the whole time in Georgia Ann.

I said, hey, do me a favor. I can't get out of bed. Would you go down and check on the guys and see how they're doing? So they went down, and Kevin Blake is in traction with two hair dryers on his cast. And Kathy said, Kevin, what are you doing? the doctor said I could get out of here as soon as my castra but neither of them had been washed so we've been in the field for eight to ten days

they had camouflage on them your hair so I mean now these are two sailors mother's sons that been in the hospital for a couple of days and they've still got matted hair so Kathy and George Mccraven you know got shampooed the guys wash their camouflage off them and, you know, just do what you need to do for a fellow teammate.

And, you know, I'm glad to say, you know, I've been in the hospital since then, unfortunately. And Navy medicine is really superlative now. But it was, again, once again, after Vietnam, with the entire military, was suffering. But I deployed, that was in Halloween of 82, and I deployed to Europe in March of 83, five months later, and jumped into McRhanie, Scotland,

and then also conducted a major exercise, a flintlock exercise, with my swim partner, Chuck Williams, and from a U-boat, a German U-209, that we, you know, we was a, so we had to lock in and lock out through the German torpedo tube, which was an excellent adventure. It's not for everybody. but when we left the submarine,

we were in the water for 13 hours in the Baltic. So this is in late March or early April of 83. The surface temperature was 39 degrees, but obviously we went down about 10 feet. And I was just really glad that, you know, I had an Olympian towing me. But, yeah, we were able to do everything that we were taught to do. And the two American swim pairs,

successfully completed the mission, and the Germans who, the compromise were very, very good. Neither their swim pair were able to do it. One swim pair wound up not finding the harbor and wound up in the hospital with hypothermia, and the other swim pair bailed. And it was really kind of a defining thing for the seal community to be able to just say, you know, we did that. But the Germans couldn't speak English, and I couldn't speak German, to be able to do lockouts, from a German torpedo tune. Yeah. Something got lost in translation

a couple of times. And you were diving draggers? Yeah. Man, and so that's like eight. Yeah. So the wetsuits back then were junk. Yeah. So I grew up surfing in Maine.

Uh-huh. And I had saved. That explains a lot. Yeah, I know. I had saved all my money and bought one of these modern wetsuits at the time. It was an O'Neill source, was what it was called.

Yeah. And it had an embedded hood or a hood that was part of the rest of it. It had a dry suit zipper. Even though it was a wetsuit, it had a dry suit zipper just to keep as much water in there as you can. And I showed up to SEAL Team 1 with this wetsuit, which was like the most modern technology. And we were doing swimmer lockouts. And I remember just that I was in heaven with this wetsuit because the wetsuits back in the early 80s, which you were wearing, just junk.

Yeah. Well, and even when we went to Buds initially, you didn't get a wet suit, you know. Did you guys get no wetsuits during boats? did eventually after, as Jack will tell you folks, one of the big defining things there in seal training is the cold. And, you know, if you show up to Southern California to see palm trees, don't be deceived. That water is cold. Yeah. And, you know, it was probably several weeks into training before they get. And of course, it was just pick something off the shelf, whether it fits or not. Well, we got wetsuits, but the wets, again, I knew from surfing.

in Maine and I was kind of on the forefront of wetsuit technology and then I show up at buds and they're issuing these wetsuits which they don't fit you it was an old school beaver tail with a zipper up the front I mean they barely helped they barely I mean they provided some some bit of warmth but barely what's the swimmer lockout so you're in a submarine and then underwater you get out of the submarine and you go and it's a it's a very continental what was like on the you boat but for the American subs they have a an escape chamber, which is a little ball. It's a little sphere that you're sitting in.

And it's probably, what, six, eight foot diameter inside that ball? Smaller? On the ballistic missile submarines it is, but on the attack boats, it's probably about four feet across. It's tiny. And you're in there. And so you get in there from inside the sub. And then that thing fills up with water. And as it fills up with water, the pressure, the pressure equalizes with what's outside.

and you end up with just a little bit of air a couple inches, and then it equalizes, and then you can, the door opens up and you swim out of the submarine. So I deployed on 12 submarines. So back then, once you get, you know, no good deeds on because unpunished, you know that. But, so that's how I wound up doing the German U-boat, and it was different. Now, the U-boats up in the Baltic, they're electric.

So it's shallow up there as well. Our submarines are deep draft, but they're silent. Just like trying to listen to a battery. And so it was a completely different experience in that German 209 have got eight torpedo tubes up in the bow. And what they did is in port, they took a torpedo out of the port side and the starboard side. So there's no torpedo.

Now, keep in mind, folks, that this is only 21 inches wide, and I guess about maybe 21 feet in length. So we had to link up with the German U-boat in the middle of the Baltic. So now this was planned exercise. So we fly out of Makrahani, Scotland, in an Air Force penetrating aircraft low-level over Europe and then over the Baltic. By low level, I'm talking about 100 feet or so. We get ready to go.

You've got your parachute on. You've got your limpets. You've got your weapons. And the door opens. You're still at 100 feet. And they tell you to get ready. You just stand up. And then the aircraft comes up.

Just think like a bell curve. It gets to about 900 feet or so. And everybody just jumps out. So the last man's out. The aircraft dives back down. Right? So, you know, you wind up in the water, ditch the parachute. You link up, and we all get together, and then I start taking one of my weights and banging it against the oxygen bottle so that the submarine can, you know, sonar pick us up.

So we're in the water for about an hour and a half to two hours, and all of a sudden, it's out of nowhere. Periscope. Periscope up. It just scares the daylights out of you. So this is the best part about it then, right? So now we're in the middle of the Baltic. The submarine is there. I've got to go to the side of the submarine

and tap on it in a certain signal to let them know that it's us. Who else is it going to be? Who else is out there besides us? Right? So when they do that, the torpedo tubes have already been flooded. They open the shutter doors,

and this is not without great risk. So the first swimmer went in to feed first. And that would be my swim partner. And that was Chuck Williams? Chuck Williams. Who's a beast in the water for sure. He's at Team 2 when I was at Team 2. Just to a stud.

He taught him everything he does. And then I would go in next to Chuck and we're right next to each other. I mean, we can kiss each other. Now, keep in mind, we've probably had 300 hours together underwater so far. Now, then the second swim pair comes in, feet first, and that he puts his fins on top of my thighs. And then the last guy comes in, and once he comes in, once he's clear of the shutter doors, you know, he squeezes his buddy who taps me on my thighs, I've got the weight, and then I tap

the submarine so that they could close the shutter doors. So, all right, we're in. Now, the torpedo tube is designed to let absolutely no light. escape. So even if you had a flashlight, you can't see anything inside. And keep in mind, it's 21 inches. We're next to each other. Did you have to take your Drager off to get in there? No. Okay. So, no, because the thing is, so now it comes to the life or death situation. So, so the reason why we figured we could do this is because an oxygen bubble is smaller than the nitrogen bubble because of what's going to happen next. So, now we've got to lock into

the submarine and come into the torpedo room. Now the torpedo room and the submarine is pressurized to sea level, but we're at 14 meters. So it was, so you depressurized, then you do water. So I got a tap signal. We're all in, and then it said, you know, whenever it was, get ready to go. So get ready to go means we all had to breathe our airbags, you know, down to as thin as paper. Now, our folks out there are bags are about the size of a football. That's it.

But it had to be, you know, really sincerely, the paper. And once you had it down, then my partner would squeeze me and then the guys would kick me, right? And then I would squeeze it. Are you ready to go? Are you ready to go? And then I would tap them.

We're ready to go. Right? And he goes, here we go. And then they would pressurize the torpedo tube that would take us from 14 meters to the surface in one second. So with the gas expansion, so it was equivalent to me necessarily, I can't c'idu, it was equivalent to, you know, having a small quarter pound, half-pound block of TNT go off in the torpedo tube.

It picked the four of us up and just the pressurization just rattles you. It's a bo-bub-bub-bub-bub-pub-poh. and you can hear the other guys so but it was done you're okay you're okay you okay you okay so then then they have to do water and you come out so you know Chuck Williams

comes out and then I come out and the other guys come out and you look at me like Mr. McGuire you got to do something about this you know and that's just your that's just getting into the boat you haven't done anything yet oh no this is showing up oh no so now we got a

now we got a three-day transit to the target on board this, you know, German U-boat, which is, if you've seen Daspoot, I mean, all about it. Everybody in the submarine is at a central casting. I mean, the captain is 35 years of age. He's got the white turtleneck. He's got the beard. He's got the jackboots.

And there's sausages hanging back and forth. Now, it's a small crew. It's probably only about maybe 30. And around the clock, these guys are working. but we were supposed to be trying to sleep right by the torpedo room, which is also the mess deck. So we'd get about two hours sleep and wake us up because they'd have to set up for a meal and then, you know, go back to that.

So we didn't actually sleep, you know, for a couple of days. But then as we start getting into the target, they take mattresses and blankets and put them all on the deck. Now, we have our wetsuits and everything, which was a mistake. in the torpedo. You're putting on wetsuits that, you know, in it 30 degrees, but

we can hear the ASW craft overhead. So as the submarine's coming in, you hear the ping, ping, and then the submarine would just sit in the bottom, and then you hear the propeller going by. Once a propeller would buy, the

submarine would come up and take us in a little bit further. Now, The Germans are helping us get dressed, putting our stuff on, and because the mattresses are on the floor and the blankets are on the floor, so the sonar from the surface ships, they're not picking any of that up. And then one by one, they pick us up just slowly, you know, load us in to... So I'm the last guy to go in. And, I mean, it's just just...

So as I'm going to, the captain comes and, you know, to wish me well. And he can say a couple of things, you know, Joe, you know, target bears 1-30 at good luck and good hunting. Then he gives me a plaque. You've got to stick in my wetsuit, right? So we go through the reverse

and then we're, you know, we're at 14 meters and then we have to go get pressurized or no, we're surfaced then we have to get pressurized. So that wasn't as bad because you're getting pressurized as opposed to depressurize. You didn't have the gas expansion on that. You had to worry about squeezes and some of the other things.

And then you come to the surface, and, you know, we're probably about, oh, maybe five miles out, and we weren't supposed to be five miles out. What happened was that, and he couldn't speak to me on that, that he viewed the threat from the ASW boats and the picket boats too great to bring the submarine in and get without getting compromised. And we're out there, and, you know, now, you're five miles off the coast, and you're in the water and you're looking, and you know, you've got your little Ben's compass

and you try to figure out, and, you know, where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Where is it? Where's the target? And I said to Chuck, that's got to be it, buddy. You see that one area that's totally black? That's a giveaway. That's got to be the target. So we started going towards that, and sure enough, there were picket boats there. So we had a planned dive that was supposed to start

pretty much at the mouth of the harbor, and we had to start way before that. So we actually spent a little over three hours submerged in this harbor and olpinolnets. And as we're coming out, Chuck, we didn't need to talk anymore. I mean, we could squeeze anything. And, you know, we did what we needed to do. We put the packages on the ships. And he signals to me, I'm fried, which was, you know, he's an Olympian.

and I said, okay, let's go over to the side. So now we go to the side of the harbor, and he takes his mask off. He goes, I'm screwed. He said, I've got this pounding headache. I've got narrow vision. I can't see much of anything.

What we did, we screwed up. We brought additional oxygen bottles on board the submarine, but we didn't bring in additional sodasorb, the scrubber. So what Chuck had done, working so hard for that much time in the water is that he overbreathed his rig. I mean, we're working hard. And then the scrubber that takes the nitrogen out of your rebreathing, although he had more oxygen in the bottle, was no longer working.

So he was having a tremendous nitrogen buildup. And he said, I just can't go on to any further. Now, we've only got about maybe a little quarter mile more to get out of the harbor, but we're not going, and now there's pickets up on the seawalls waiting for us. So we just kind of sit there and you figure, all right, so this is a Northern Europe harbor, and the seawall is probably 12 feet high, maybe six to seven feet wide, and I figure the only way we're going to do this is we've got to get over the seawall, get to the ocean side, and see what we take it from there.

So Chuck's a tall guy And I was able to get on Chuck's shoulders And jump up to the top And then he handed me My Drager, his Drager And then I was able to pull him up And the two of us just lying there Then we rolled over to the other side

And they just kind of dropped down With all of our toys And just laid there for about 10 minutes To see and, you know, nope I mean they had flares going off and other things there. Now, the rendezvous, we had a fishing boat that was from a Danish intelligence that was supposed to be at a certain place.

And you're looking there, and they're not at that certain place. But there is one boat out there that is another couple of miles away. Right? So I go, now, if we didn't make the rendezvous, then you had to go into the E&E net. And these are folks, they fought World War II. So this was, you did that. I mean, you know, I think, I don't want to go into the E&E net.

So I said, Chuck, it's not where it's supposed to be, but that's about right. Close enough. But I said, that's got to be it. So let's go. So we take off surface swimming on our back, and now he's kicking out with Olympic quality. And now my hip from my broken pelvis, is kind of, I'm spent. So all I'm trying to do, because my swim is getting to trim

and not hold him up that much. So we get to this boat, and before we get to the boat, and we have to go back on bag, and we have to go underneath the fishing boat. And underneath the fishing boat, there were chemlights that displayed that told us this is the right boat. Now here it gets fun again, right? So we go up to the fishing boat,

and there's a ladder over the side, and the guys in the fishing boat, who were Danish, you know, we had to give them a certain bona fide. You know, no,

I've got a gun, you know, they're supposed to, we're compromised, right? I figured, there's two things. One,

I don't care if it's Russians, I'm getting on that boat. And two, if they won't let us on, I'm shooting myself. That's it, you know? So,

now, here you're freezing, you're dehydrated, you're bit in the water for 13 hours. They take it below deck. And it's a real fishing boat. So they,

an artificial side of the boat that they take off and put against the skin of the ship. And they put the two of us leaning against the skin of the ship and give us a couple of these big beers and chocolate bars and then put the back on there

and then put fish on top of it. No, I want a blanket and I want a gallon of water. The two of us just had to hug each other all the way into Denmark. But, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, recruiter doesn't tell you that stuff.

Sounds like a Navy achievement medal, at least. Maybe. No, no, they didn't give out medals back there, you know? No, no, I got the breast, freak leaf with bronze oak leaf palms. I think that's what it was. Oh, that's brutal. It was brutal, but you know, you know this, Jacco sincerely. It was, but just to be able to come back in and just go, mission accomplished.

Yeah. We did it, man. And we did it the hard way, but we did it. Just the tremendous satisfaction you get from being a seal, and being able to do a really hard mission. And even in my fitness report, you know, when that, you know, Rick Willard brought in there, there are very few people, if any, in the world

that could do what these guys did, this exercise. That's a freaking rough one. Oh, yeah. I was on an ard platoon. I did a recon. We dove into a harbor. We took pictures and of whatever ship. It was up here at Camp Pendleton.

You know, we dove in. We got out of the water. We took pictures, and this was the old school film, and we come back out, and I had gotten like perched in the perfect spot. I was able to keep the shutter open for like minutes and just hold it perfectly. And so I took a bunch of pictures. We came back, and then the report I got back from my platoon commander was that, you know, the amphibious ready group commander said, I thought these guys went in there during the night.

And the platoon commander said, they did go in there at night. This is good photography. But yeah, same kind of feeling. And I used to tell guys, when you're doing a water op, it's a real world op. Like there's all kinds of things that can kill you when you're out there, especially in third degree water and 40 degree water and, you know, doing the in and out of the submarine. No joke.

Yeah, I mean, class ahead of me in Buds. We lost a young trainee doing surf passage with those big, heavy rigs that we had through the plunging. Corrano Surf. He hit his head on the back of his regulator and knocked him out, but then picked up the swim pair and tore the buddy line, and they lost him and finally got him sometime later. But yeah, I mean, it's for real. And the ocean could kill you or the weather. You know, it used to be the patrol leader's card that we had years ago. The first thing you'd start off was listing enemy, and the first thing we listed was weather. Weather. Yeah. So what did you do after that deployment?

Well, that's when I went to graduate school. So I went to the Naval Postgraduate School and studied scientific and technical intelligence. And I thought, all right, I got 18 months of surfing and screw it off. And so my brother went to the University of Michigan, got his MBA. For 24 months, he took 40 credits. I went to the Naval Postgraduate School. and in 18 months took 96 credits of which I had three electives

and three credit electives, that's it. And a good portion of it was in the physical lab and, you know, we're designing the shape of scientific intelligence. I kind of missed that, you know? So, but it was a great education. And, you know, I really, one, I enjoyed living in Central California and do that.

I mean, we wound up doing triathlons and some other good stuff. but being able to complete that curriculum then and then leaving there and getting all of the intelligence accesses that you don't realize that those things exist and so you get into the secret clubhouse. And then I was in the secret clubhouse and I left there and went to Naval Special Warfare Group 2

in Virginia Beach, which is the oversight group command for the SEAL teams on the East Coast as the intelligence officer there. So it was a very, very good time to be the intel officer because we were involved in 1986 El Dorado Canyon, the Libyan campaign. We had the Central American Wars, and also we did a significant amount of work in other areas there. But that really is when I first got involved in, deeply involved in intelligence.

But to me, it just went hand and glove with being a seal that you know what to ask for. that we didn't really know what the menu was because you didn't know. We just kept ordering burgers and fries. Once you realize exactly what the intelligence community has gotten its capability, you can really refine. And the other thing is,

well, more importantly, as you know this, Jocko, it doesn't matter what you got in your collar. It doesn't mean it's who you know in relationships. It's all about relationships. And when you had, you know, folks who were there at the N2 of Second Fleet and I went to graduate school with this individual, you know, that really paid off

great dividends, you know, for the community. But, you know, when it came to what we were doing in, you know, Benghazi and all of these other places, you know, I mean, we built target folders for all of that stuff. And when it comes to Final Jeopardy, if it's a geographic question, I probably had a target folder on it. And then, didn't you end up going now back to SDV? When did SDV, when did SDV form up, SDV Team 2? SDV Team 2 formed up in about 1979, 79 or 80, because we had an SDV detachment in UDT21, and that was siphoning off so much of our money and so much of our time because a great idea, but we did not have the technology, and the guy spent a great deal of their time switching out the bow holes because they kept crashing into piers and rocks and some other.

other things, but cold and miserable. But the other thing as well, it was a really good time for me to go to SDV because that when we first started to modify the nuclear-powered submarines to carry us, as opposed to just having us go on there and putting towels on the deck and tell us not to make a mess. And we just had the dry-deck shelter. We had the Mobility Improvement Project, which was a national mission to the first dry-deck shelter, which is this is a garage folks that we put on a nuclear submarine. and we put our submersible boats in there,

and we come out of the submarine and into that. It's like a garage, and then we go off on a mission probably about 10 to 12 hours in a cold, wet submarine. And it really, I'm glad that I had that other background in that, that I was able to bring an awful lot to comfort the commanding officers with the submarine that, you know, what, you guys are going to ruin my career, it's going to be okay, Captain. We probably will, but it's going to be okay. But, yeah, and Bill McRaven was there just before me as a platoon commander and Evan Thompson.

But, you know, also at that point, I didn't want to be that ambitious, Jacco. I mean, necessarily, but I just figured, you know, if I ever do wind up being in charge of the community, I'd like to know something about everything in the community. and I really strive to at least have one tour and have a good sense of what it's all about. At what point did you realize you were just going to do as long as you could do? Oh, when my wife told me that.

I mean this sincerely. So I guess I was at the 10-year point. We just, you know, we did Grenada. Vietnam is over and we're going to do anything ever. again and it was kind of unlikely. I mean, we're doing exercises and everybody was bored. And I was not, well, I don't know if my old former senior guys listened to this, but we're not a whole lot of folks who were inspirational leaders.

And I mean, let me put it to you that way. And I just figured, okay, I'm going to go to law school. So I was applying to law school and I'm dead serious. I'm going to go be a lawyer. And I finally get this counseling session from Kathy. She goes, you're going to be a lawyer. She goes, you're not going to be a lawyer. She said, you are a seal, you are a good seal. Every friend we have are seals. I'm not going to give that up for you just to become another crummy lawyer. Sorry, counselors, but...

So I just said, you know, like any good husband, okay. So I just decided to, you know, jump back in with both feet. And then, you know, you take it as it comes. You know, at the 20-year point, we've all got to decide whether or not we're going to retire. But as you know, the service is like they put that carrot out in front of it. You know, okay, I'll take that promotion. And then I'll get out.

Then they put another car out. Next thing you know, you're old and ugly, and you've got 36 years in the Navy. So was that your ex-o tour at SDV team? It was. It was. And a lot of time at sea, you know, on board the submarines and doing operations. So, yeah, that was good. That really was a really, really good tour.

really become, was the first deployment that we ever made with the Drydeck Shelter. And, you know, when you do doing the first, there's nothing. You mean, you had to write everything. You had to write the tactic, these procedures, and procedures working from a submarine or life and death procedures.

And you really had to know and be extremely cautious and there really was the unknowns. And you just think, you go back and forth and in the community, we are a risk-taking community, but you never take a risk you don't have to. So we really had to put, you know, those and cons, the most experienced folks,

and then sometimes, honestly, pretty much we knew it. It's going to be okay, but you still were rolling the dice sometimes. But the credit really belongs to those guys, you know, the pilot, navigator, and the STVs, to be able to go from a nuclear submarine submerged in the middle of the ocean and go, you know, and do a target and come back 10 hours plus later and find that submarine is a remarkable feat. It really is.

So, you know, really the credit goes to those young operators, hard men. I still think that, you know, that is probably among our hardest missions that we've got. And as you know, there is not a wetsuit thick enough to keep you warm. And so then what? Is that when you went to D. Taylor after you got done with that, You became the Detainer? No, I became the Maritime Special Purpose Force Commander. So I deployed for a year with the Marine Detachment and with our detachment and got over to the Mediterranean,

got involved with another submarine operation there for the evacuation of the embassy in Beirut. Oh, okay. Because this was the second time that I was in Beirut. I evacuated when I was in Ensign on board the ship in 1976 because they were at war. and the ship pulled in the middle of the night and all of Beirut was on fire and the Palestinian Liberation Authority gave us permission

and be able to have one boat come in and a junior officer to take the Americans out who include the United States ambassador and I'm in my whites with my little shoulder boards and the PLO were pulling these guys out from line, not let them get on board our boat and I'm on the walkie-talkie calling them back to the ship

and talking to the XO. I said, sir, they're pulling people out. Just do anything we can do? Don't do a thing, Joe. Just don't, don't leave that boat. And, you know, don't do anything until the Americans are on board, and the ambassadors are on board. But it really, to me, this was in July of 1976

with the, you know, 200th anniversary of our nation. And I'm thinking, here we are, the United States of America, and we got these folks dictating to the American ambassador who represent the President of the United States and us, whether or not he can get on board an eligible. and that was a pretty defining moment for me. But so then did it again at that time frame. And I had the opportunity to go back to Beirut when I was the Socom commander with the

JASOC commander and had lunch with the Lebanese commandos. And it was a great lunch. We're sitting there. And I'm talking to the Lebanese commander who's hosting the lunch. I said, well, I'll tell you, General, this is my fourth trip to Beirut. And the other three times I've been here, I never spent more than an hour out of the three trips. You know, we're in and out. And, you know, so we spent probably a better part of a day there in Beirut.

But it was just interesting when I went into 1976 to see it as a collapsed city on fire. And I go back in 2019, I guess. and just see it looks like Hong Kong except that they're bankrupt. But, no, it's funny how from Ensign to political appointee, but it all, you know, it's always been a troubled spot. What was the, when you went there and pulled guys out or did the embassy evacuation from a submarine, what was that operation like?

We can't talk about that right now. I got it. Yeah, yeah. So then what was after that? So you did that deployment with the, with the, with, as, the special force commander. Yep. And then from there up to D.C.

So it was my first Washington tour and as the assignment and placement officer for the community. And it was an awful lot of fun. That, you know, you're the one person in all community making all assignments from Ensign to captains. And everybody hates you.

Hard to believe, isn't it? But that was a really good. One, I did the best I could, even the playing field and the tribute. But the other thing is, I had an opportunity to work and serve on selection boards. So you're a junior officer, and you're supporting the senior officer, the captain's and the admirals as they make their selections. And you see the selection board process, and then you see who gets selected and who doesn't get selected. And you could just sit back there after a while ago, don't sweat the Lord, man, just do your job.

It's as simple as that. You know, because everybody's record, you know, when they're up for flag, just about every one of those captains, their records are like manicured lawns, but not everybody's going to get it. And it just doesn't matter. If you're going to get it, you're going to get it.

But if not, just relax and just do your job. And really took an awful lot of pressure off there. But, yeah, that was a time that then we wound up with first Gulf War. So I wound up leaving there and going down to Dev Groo as the deputy commander. And then how many years did you spend down there? I spent two years down there

and then left to take over commanding officer of SEAL Team 2. Now during this time, would you say that this is a time where you had the first Gulf War happen? Our SEALs start to kind of become popular yet? I mean, I came in in 1991 as we As I mentioned earlier, I mean, there was the Navy Seals movie, which I'm sure echo Charles likes. The Navy Seals movie, I think, came out in 1991.

Yeah, it makes a check far as movie. Yeah, yeah. But there was still not a lot of, not a lot of popularity. It wasn't a big deal yet. No. No. So, you know, don't want to have a history lesson for everybody out there, but because of the failure of the Iranian hostage rescue mission in April of 19. and then compounded by what happened in Grenada that the civilian side of the house and made the

decision that especially because of the failure of the Iranian hostage rescue mission that if we as a nation want to have an organization that be able to conduct no-fail missions that we need to be serious about this and there has to be one command that's organized, trained, and equipped to be able to do that, that started shaping the community. We were still in the Navy, the Army was still in the Army, and through the Department of Defense Appropriation Act of 1987, Senators Nunn and Cohen tacked on the end of that appropriations bill, the establishment of United States Special Operations Command,

and bringing in the Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, Rangers, and 160th, and Air Force Commandos under United States Special Operations Command. So then we had our own line of money for unique. But be honest with you, at that time, my friend Tom Coulter, who mentioned that, you know, okay, once the SEALs came into the United States Special Operations Command, Tommy goes, well, congratulations, we're now in the bottom of two food chains. Pretty much we were, you know. But we still, in spite of that, the recent,

resources didn't flow. And the active duty military did not necessarily want to have this. And if they did, they wanted to have it. Three-star command, you know, it's close to Washington. And it was our civilians that said, no, we know the military. It's got to be a four-star. And, well, actually, probably had an awful lot to do with the powerful Florida delegation more than anything else that we wind up in McDill. But it took quite a while, and we would just be coming. And but the leaders of the community made very, very good decisions on, with the limited resources we had, and we had other

opportunities to do away with certain types of things that we as a community did. And one of them was, you know, unconventional warfare that the special, the Green Berets were going to do away with that. And luckily, they decided not to, so when 9-11

happened, and they were able to send the fifth special forces in, you know, with John Mulholland as the group commander, and the other young folks that wound up being the horse soldiers. But that war was the defining thing for the community. Unfortunately, we paid a heavy toll to be where we are today. But when the opportunity presented itself for both Afghanistan and Iraq, special operations mentality and capability was at a premium,

and we were ready at that time to do that. and luckily the active duty military had come around as well as the senior civilians and completely changed the resourcing for the United States Special Operations Command and I have to say really gave us all the tools necessary and bent over backwards to make us as successful as we possibly could be and we were carrying all the water and so she said back then nobody knew who we were now everybody knows who we are but that also has got to do with the tax that we paid and the brave people that you mentioned a little bit earlier.

And if I could talk about that just a little bit with Mark Lee and Ryan, so, you know, Jocko mentioned about me welcoming the men home from combat, but I also, Jocko was already deployed to Iraq, and I would also see all of the guys off before they got on the plane and left. So Jocko's got a bunch of guys from his task unit, I didn't want to bother them.

They were talking to their wives, and then it's time to kind of go out to the plane. And so we're standing around, went out of the plane. I said, look, guys, one last thing. I said, the genie's here. Rub the lamp. Make your wish. And guys, some folks are reluctant to talk to a guy with two stars in his collar. And now, Mark Lee was a new guy.

This was his first deployment. And Mark Lee comes up, he says, hey, Admiral, I want to talk to you. All right. visit there, Petty Officer Lee. He says, you know, we're over there, we're fighting the war, and we're these Humvees, and these Humvees are not air-conditioned. We need air-conditioned hum-vies. Well, Mark, I tell you what, you know, you're in a war, and you just can't stick an air-conditioner in there because if a bomb goes off, you might wind up eating it. So let me do this. Let me go to United States Special Operations Command. I'll talk to General Brown and see what we can do.

And I went back to my office. I called General Doug Brown, who is our SOCOM commander. He says, look, got it, I got it. And that was his big guy. I got it. But he said, but we have to do this smart. And we wound up with air-conditioned Humvees in Iraq because Mark Lee asked for that. Now, to me, you know, as the admiral, you work for the men. And if that's what they needed, that's what they got. But one of the most moving things in my life was when Mark came home to San Diego. So when you come home, you get flown into Dover and then from Dover to San Diego. So there were a bunch of us that went down there to meet his body as it came off this commercial plane. And there were folks at San Diego Airport were very kind to us and let us, you know, come

down. So now everybody had to remain on board the plane with the exception of our escort officers that escort Mark's body back. And I'm down there with the master chief, and the body comes off. And, I mean, all of a sudden I realize it's dead silent in the airport. There's no planes moving. There's no cars moving. I mean, I was so focused on the coffin coming off. And then I look up in the terminal, and everybody's pressed against the glass.

I mean, everywhere. And I, one of the airport, I said, what's going? I said, we stopped everything. We stopped everything. And they made an announcement in the airport. The first seal who was killed in Iraq is coming home. We all go out there and welcome him home. And that really, that was remarkable.

And as far as, you know, Ryan Joe, I mean, you had to know Ryan, folks. I mean, Ryan was just indomitable, absolutely indomitable. So now here he lost his vision, and he's in a Bethesda Naval Hospital. So I, just coincidentally, I was going to be there anyhow because we had a Navy Cross ceremony for two of our seals that were with Michael Murphy and Operation Red Wings who were killed in that. They were posthumously receiving the Navy Cross. So we had a big ceremony planned at the Navy Memorial. So a few of us are in town. We go to visit Ryan, who is at the Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Now, we go there, and Kathy's with me, and he's asleep, and there's a woman there. Turns out to be Ryan's mother, right? So go up, and he wakes up. And he goes, hey, hey, hey, guys. So, of course, all the knuckleheads go in, and we start talking. Now, he's blind. but he's himself. Even maybe a little more.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know who did this. I'm talking to Mrs. Job and, you know, we take care of your son, and we still didn't know what his disposition was going to be. I mean, he just came out of combat. He'd only been in the hospital for a couple of days. And so somebody says to him, hey, Ryan, we're going to have a major ceremony at the Navy Memorial for the couple of guys they're receiving the Navy Cross.

You want to come? Yeah, I'm in. Now, he's blind so he can't see this. His mother just points to me with the old you outside. She drags me into the lobby, and she has got her fingers in my chest. Right? My son just lost his vision. Yes, Mr. Job.

I got it. Yes, Mr. Job, we got it. Yes, Mr. Job, we got it. So I said, Mr. Job, look, I'm not going to, but if our teammate wants to go, I mean, it's up to you. I'm not going to get involved, but I guarantee you we will have a car for him, we will have a place for him, and we will have a big, bad seal who will escort him. Do you remember who you sent home to be his escort?

I sent three guys home. I'm not sure which one. One was the American sniper, right? So I don't know what's going to happen, but I mean, this is a very moving thing because we've got the Gold Star families there and everybody was there. It was a sunset ceremony in Washington, D.C. and the Secretary of the Navy, the Chief of Naval Operations, all of Washington senators, and I come out, and the lights are on me, and it's a semicircle amphitheater.

And as I'm talking, welcoming everybody, I start over the right, where is he, where is he, where is he, where is he, where is he, where is he? And as I'm talking and I'm scanning the crowd, and all the way over the left at an end seat, there's one individual who has his head turned to the side. I realize it's Ryan so he can hear me. And I'm kind of looking and I'm thinking, right? And then who stands up behind him, right?

I got him. Chris. I got him. Chris Kyle. I got him. Okay, he's in good shape there. You know? So we went through that and I got to tell you, the ceremony was moving, but we had a reception after that.

And then we went down to the Divor Memorial for reception. and, you know, dumb frogmen that we are, you know, he's blind, you know, put him in a chair. So it was almost like Animal House. When they come into Delta House, you've got the nerds that they just kind of stick to the side, just sit, you know. So we keep trying to get Ryan, and meanwhile, now keep in mind, two weeks since he's lost his vision, and there are hundreds of people there, and he's just walking around the crowd, and, of course, I'm on him now. And everybody's going to, I'm on him. And he bumps into this woman.

And he goes, oh, oh, excuse me. You know, hi, I'm Ryan. Who are you? Hi, Ryan. I'm Barbara Boxer. He'd have a clue that it was a senator. And he just started chatting her up. I figured, my God.

You know? So it was a wonderful reception. And I stayed until the last Gold Star parent left. And I'm fried. I got to be honest with you. Because I had to do Navy business there. and you're on it, and it was emotional, as could be, as you can have, and that emotion is just raining.

So I forget if it was Danny Dietz's family or Axelson's family that left the last, and I just figured, okay, I turned to Kathy. I said, all right, baby, let's get back to the hotel. She goes, oh, no. She says, all your men are at the Irish pub. You got to go have at least a beer with the boys, you know. You know, my name is Bukwire. I didn't take that.

So I go into this bar, and it is packed, packed. So, of course, the guys would be nice to kind of make a way for me and Kathy. And up against the bar, with the beer in his hand and his elbow on the bar, is Ryan Joe, drinking a beer, J.P.N. one of the boys. But one of my favorite stories about Ryan, after he got medically retired, he became very good friends with our four-star commander, General Doug Brown. And so he calls up General Brown and he says, hey, sir, I'm going

to climb Mount McKinley. I'd like you to come with me. Well, you know, Ryan, I'm in my 60s right now. I don't know if I could do that. General Brown told me this. He goes, General Brown, I'm blind. You've got no excuse.

You know? So, just, I mean, it's indomitable, just wonderful, just an inspiration. Yeah. One inspiration, both with Chris, Chris as well, an inspirational person. Yeah, I remember, you know, you said he was medically retired, but there was a time where he was not sure if he was going to medically retire. Right. And, you know, he said to me, he said, well, you know, can I stay in?

And I said, well, I don't know, but I know someone that does know. And I came by to see you and I said, hey, there's a chance that Ryan wants to just stay in. And you looked at me and said, then he stays in. Yeah. Now, my thought was, when you look in your mirror and you see yourself, you see a seal. And my thought was, I don't have any one of us telling our teammate he no longer can do it. Our teammate has to come to that realization on his own. And I just thought, sooner or later, you mean, it's just hard to make that break,

especially, you know, you're coming from combat and going through all this stuff. sooner or later you realize, you know, because I learned that from Tommy Norris. Tommy was one of our Medal of Honor recipients from Vietnam, and Tommy was severely wounded, but because he was a Medal of Honor recipient, that, you know, Tommy, you could stay, and Tom made the decision. I could stay, but I don't think I'm a full-up round anymore, and I just, you know, so he made that decision as well. So I learned that years ago, and I just thought, let my teammate decide when

It's time for them to go. Yeah, that was awesome for him to have that option and for him to know that as long as he wanted to be in the teams, he would be in the teams. That was freaking awesome. Where were we? We were at what? You were about to take over SEAL Team 2?

Well, I took over SEAL Team 2 and left there, and I had the misfortune of getting deep selected for captain. But, yeah, so I'm deployed on another submarine with the seal team down in the Caribbean. So we've been at sea now probably submerged for a week. And, you know, as you know, Chuck, when you finally finish, you come to the surface, they put the antenna up and you download to traffic. So we're just, we've gone admin now. We're up in the sail.

The submarine is running on the surface. And, you know, you folks, you see pictures like that and recruiting things. the folks are up there. So I'm up in the sale with the commanding office of the submarine. And the guys are in the, just aft of the sail, putting our, you know, boats together and some other stuff. And the sound-powered phone rigs, which on the submarine, you know, the captain picks up the phone, you know, captain.

And he's listening, and he starts looking at me. And I figured, oh, God, what did my guys do now? You know? and he hangs up the phone and he looks at me, he goes, we just got a message, you just got selected for captain. I said, that can't be.

I'm not eligible for another two years. He goes, well, what's your year group? I told him, he goes, damn, Joe, so is mine. So with that, I wound up, you know, not staying as long as I would have liked to, but I left there and then went to, got selected for Harvard as a national security fellow up there. And that was another remedial education program for me.

The part that gets me about Harvard, really, I mean, it's got a good reputation, but who knew the spelling counts? So, how long are you up there for? I had 13 months. So it was a one-year fellowship, but it was remarkable. So I had officer rank. I was a member of the faculty club. And it was just great to be able to have my mother,

take my mother to the faculty club and just tell her, you know, even C students can make it to the Harvard faculty clubs, my mama, you know? But it was really great because it was small seminars focused, and what I was up there really to do is advanced research and national security. But the folks that I had up there at the Kennedy School

is really the holding tank for government. They were either former secretaries, former ambassadors, and I became, because one, you're a seal, and I just, and had to rank, that I was included in everything there. It's just really remarkable. That, you know, some of the seminars I was in, I had to put maybe once a week, because we had to take turns submitting a memorandum. And then go to the two professors, who, one would be the former deputy secretary. Secretary of State, and then it was, you know, an Undersecretary of Defense. And they'd go through this darn thing, and they'd go, Joe, you dope. You can't say that. They're going to leak that to the Washington Post. And honest and goodness, like, here's how you say it without, you know, indicting. I mean,

it's really good, practical stuff. But because I got included in everything, this is at a time when Ted Kennedy was still alive and the senator from Massachusetts and John John was around. And they'd come to the Kennedy School all the time, but Senator Kennedy's sister was the ambassador to Ireland. And the Kennedy family invited Jerry Adams to come to Boston. And then he gave a lecture in the evening at the Kennedy School and then a small dinner. So these were all emeritus professors. Would you like to come, Joe? Boy, would I.

And we had dinner. There were only about eight of us at dinner. and he was holding court. And I got to tell you, I was just sitting there watching, I'm thinking, no wonder. I mean, this guy, these are all senior emeritus Harvard professors and they were eating out of his hand. And I think this guy's good, this guy's real good.

So then our four-star at that point in time, General Downing came up to visit. He came up on a regular basis to Harvard. And so what he'd been up to? Well, I had dinner with Jerry Adams. Ooh, that didn't go good. Because it's just, you know, Joe, he's one of the biggest terrorists in the world. I said, well, you know, the thing about it is boss, what an opportunity to learn about them, you know?

I mean, you just can't, I'm here to learn. And even if it's an unpleasant or you're here to learn. And I learned an awful lot just about maybe the couple of hours that I spent there listening to that guy, just how good these folks are. But tremendous education. And then from there, I went to become the deputy's sock pack. So I had all of these beautiful suits and overcoats and things that I wore at Harvard. And then you're in Hawaii. And then I'm in, you know, Aloha attire.

Don't throw anything away. You never know. And then what you're doing, the deputy. What's the deputy position like out there in Sockpack? What are you doing? It was wonderful. So in the Pacific, Sockpack was co-located in the same building as the Pacific commander. So we actually were, although a separate subunified command.

command, Admiral Prier, who was the Pacific commander, actually made us a part of his staff. So, well, we had the best of both worlds. That in the morning, you know, it'd be up there because the general traveled a great deal. And I would be the one that represented sit there, you know, with the four star and his staff, getting all of the classified briefings up in the skiff. And then down to another conference room where a broader audience with the less classified things were discussed. But going through interesting things

with sending two carrier battle groups into the Taiwan Strait. It's just seeing that unfold. But we also had a situation where this was the first time I really became aware of beheadings. We had a group of Westerners. This is in August of 95. On vacation through the

Hindu Kush. And this was up in the line of control in Shrinagar. And they were captured and held ransom by Muslims up there. And one of the captors, a Norwegian, ran away and they caught him. And they cut his head off. They put his body on one part of the town and the head on the other part of the town with a ransom note, you know, on either. And the Indian military then came to the ambassador, who was the senior ranking ambassador in the United States State Department then, who went to the secretary, and we had to deploy a Delta Force assault team there with General Pete Schumacher, who was the J-Soc commander. So we were doing not command and control for them, because the Pacific Command was doing that,

but there was nobody in the Pacific Command that understood that. So I was standing next to the Four Stars desk. This is before Admiral Pryor showed up. This was Admiral Mackey. And he had to draft a personal form message to the Secretary of Defense and to the chairman every day. And I drafted those messages for him. And, you know, he changed a little bit,

but it was that time I had in Harvard. I mean, necessarily, I never would have been able to do that before, as I said, spelling counted. But he would change a couple of things. And they were deployed there for 40-some odd days. And we never got the hostages back. So when just the work there, now it is September, so it is the anniversary of the end of World War II. and the president is there, the secretary defense, everybody's there. This is Bill Clinton, and so this is 95.

And now I've been locked up for 30, 40 days. I'm as white as a sheet, but because I wasn't going anywhere, you know, I'd go home for four hours and sleep and shower and come back. I'm in my, you know, aloh, I'm in my flip-flops, I'm in my board shorts, and I'm in my team. t-shirt. Now, the Pacific commander is down there with the president, and everybody having breakfast, but his aid is up there, and I've got to run all of these things by them, and I'm explaining, said, okay, what they're asking for is they want to go forward and be with the Indians are going to do a takedown, and they want to have our guys to be with them during the takeout, and I'm trying to explain it to him, and he's an attack pilot, and he finally, keep in mind, he's in chokers,

with all of his metals and the big gold agulets that the eight wear, and he finally says to me, I can't get this, you've got to come with me. All right. So I'm following him. Again, flip-flop, I got, you know, this bag handcuffed to my hand, right? And we jump in the car. And as I'm in the car, I'm trolling. I don't get it.

You're just going to have to explain it yourself. Now, I completely forgot what was going on. But as I get down there, you've got all the Secret Service agents. You've got metal detectors, right? and you've got an aircraft carrier on one side of the pier and two cruises on the other, right? And they're all a dress ship, and everybody's standing along, manning the rail.

So Bud jumps out of the car, and he just runs through the metal detector, and they've seen him for several days, and I know he's good. And I come after him, and the Secret Service guy said, I'm with him, man, I'm with him. He's with me. So we're walking down the pier,

and, And we're standing there, and again, everybody's a dress ship. I mean, folks, you've got to understand just how impressive this is. You know, you've got several hundred guys in an aircraft carrier, the cruiser, you've got the flags up, and then the armored vehicle comes down initially, and these guys jump out. It's all the Secret Service guys. And then down comes the beast. So the president and the first lady are in that.

And then you hear from the aircraft carrier a bugle, everybody for attention, right? So everybody's at attention. And in Bud Langston, he's saluting. I'm in my flip-flops and stuff. And the president gets out of the car, and I figured, be inappropriate to salute. So I'm just waving. And the president comes up and he shakes my hand. Yes, thanks, Mr. President.

You know? So, so if they go, he goes on board the ship. And meanwhile, he went on, and the rest of them had to walk down. So down comes the secretary of the Navy, the Secretary of Defense, the four-star commander. So Biden goes, okay, you've got to brief the admiral. So we pull them off to the side, and I tried to give him the disposition of what they're asking for. And what is your recommendation, Captain? I said, sir, I think you need to support the guys and approve the decision.

Well, that's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of my life. Do I get a second guess? He says, no. He said, that thing will go south, and who are they going to blame? No, Joe, you go back and tell the general permission denied on that. And I get to think in retrospect. He's probably right. But, you know, what do you think?

I guess wrong. But it was an interesting job. And the last thing that we did before I left is we had to evacuate. Cambodia. So there was a coup in Cambodia, and the embassy needed to be evacuated. So we deployed to Cambodia, and that was the last thing I did, then I finally left and then took over the center. And so, you know, I was sleeping in my office, working around a clock, just an operational command, and now I take over the training command. And, you know, I've probably been there for a month and a half, and one of your previous guests,

Bill McCraven, is driving along the Strand. It's about 7.30 at night. He's going one way, and I'm on the other side. He takes his Jeep, and he makes a U-turn. He says, Joe, what are you doing? Coming home from work, get in the car. So get in the car. Joe, it's 7.30 at night. You're on show duty. You're driving everybody crazy. You've got to take a deeper breath and maybe just kind of pace yourself a little bit more. But Joe, they cannot keep it up this pace here. But thanks for the feedback, buddy.

Appreciate that. But you come from an operational command when you do it's something like that and it takes you a while to decompress and become a human being again. Right. And how was Buds from now from the perspective? I mean, the last time you were there

was as a student. Yeah. And now you're back there as the senior guy. You know, people talk about the changes at Buds. Yeah. And there's other people that go, hey, look, it doesn't matter. There's little changes here and there.

the outcome is the same? Yeah. What did you see? I mean, it changed dramatically in that, as I said, nobody really cared about the numbers back then. That if nobody graduated, nobody graduated. But at that time, we actually, and appropriately so, people were looking for return of the investment. And, you know, we still had a really terrible attrition rate. But we also had some other things that we did that, you know, when I finished teleweek, you know, I had to, you know, I had to,

cut my boots up so my feet could fit in the boot. And, you know, I had cellulitis and just, that's it. I mean, so, and that was inappropriate that, you know, we had to do that. But then, you know, the young troops back then, you know, every day that they'd come in and they'd change their socks out for them and give them dry socks and just some other things. But, I mean, the mission of the command is to qualified, to graduate qualified individuals to go to the SEAL team, not break them and bust them. So, you know, whatever's going to take to get them there.

But it was really still pretty much the same, but it needed a little bit of tightening up, just a little bit. So, you know, we had some structures there, and what I just thought we needed to do, you know, I'm not too into this, as you know, Jocko, but I'd say, you know, I kind of have to drive a little bit of fear into these guys. Just, I mean, you need a little bit too relaxed. So I went to the guys of the development group, and I said, can you send me a couple of warrants or maybe some senior guys that would like to come on out here and help shape the community for the next couple of years? So we had some of the dev group senior list of guys come out. And so one of the guys showed up, a warrant officer, who's a dear friend of mine, and we were

one of the final days of Hell Week, and the kids are in the demo pit. and the kids were in a demo pit was setting off explosives around them and these kids are still singing now this is probably Thursday or so I kind of forget and they've already lost about 100 people in the class so these kids aren't going to quit

but they are they are beat up and the instructors are doing their thing and I mean he just arrived at the command and I said hey Danny we're down there you want to come with me down to the demo pit and watch I said sure I'd like to come along So, you know, I'm just doing there. I've got the Master Chief, and again, I'm not interfering.

I'm watching. And I look over at this guy who is a Devgrew warrant officer, and he's got tears in his eyes. I didn't say anything. On the way back, I said, Danny, how'd you feel about that? I forgot. He says, I forgot what it was like. He said, I forgot.

He said, for a little while I was there. And he said, you know, so, you. Yeah, it's the same. And, you know, Master Chief DeFelsky, who was streetwise forced Master Chief, and he really Bud sucked our instructors. So, you know, we all go through training, and as we look back on it in the rearview mirror, we were faster, smarter, stronger, better. And so he's the master chief in charge of all of the instructors at Bud's training.

they're constantly complaining to the master chief about the quality of the individuals. They're not making this, and if they don't do this, they shouldn't be able to continue. So, Telfelsky, really a smart guy. On a Friday afternoon, we have one big classroom. It probably seats about 100. So he's got all the instructors in there. He made everybody come. It was mandatory.

And he's got the chalkboard up there. He said, all right, first phase. What is the minimum standard that you need to have for the four-old for the four-mile run. And it went down to swim, the Y-course, and the second phase, third phase. And everyone wants everything to be, you've got to do better, got to be faster, got to be stronger. So he really mud-sucked them. So he said, let me understand this now.

He said, because, I'm going to go talk to the captain. And we're going to change things here. He says, but I want to make sure that everybody agrees, if you can't do this in first phase, if you can't do that in second phase, if you can't do that in third phase, you should never be a seal. Is that correct? That's right, Mr. Chief. Right. Well, gentlemen, he just happens.

I have every one of your training records here. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to give each and every one of you your training record. I'm going to walk out of the room. Once you finish looking at it and you see what you did, just put it back in the box and I'll see you Monday. Because it was true. It's humbling to go back and look at your own record and see what the instructor said about you. You know, okay, install it. We still have the same.

We've got every single record from day one. So as a matter of fact, when I was there, I tried to burn down the room there that had mine like that. And when did you leave Buds? What's that? When were you done at Buds as the commander? Well, I was really for 39 months, which is a really good, you know, and honestly, it was just a fantastic tour, not one that I wanted to do, because I was going to go someplace else in Virginia Beach. and we had trouble with our attrition rate and getting folks through. So I got changed from going out to Virginia Beach to the center,

but it turned out to be probably the most rewarding tour I ever had, to have people like Marcus Lattrell go through training. And, you know, I remembered Marcus because not many students break their femur in training. And so, you know, it's not a good time when, you know, the senior instructors and the doctor and the master chief come to talk to you about. All right. He broke his what? He broke his femur.

How? Stress fracture. Well, BS, right? So, I mean, we went through, and I'm going through this stuff. So what happened was, I mean, right? I mean, and they were covering for him, and he did break his femur. So, I mean, Marcus, if you're listening.

So the instructors, and if any of you think that you could beat me, of course, Marcus raises his hand. This is the obstacle course. So we have, it's all technique. And now you're dealing with a seal that's been doing this obstacle course for years. And now, Marcus was good, but you've got a guy who, you know, these guys are like pixies going over this darn thing. So you climb to the top of the cargo net. Was that about 30 feet, Chaco? Yeah, it's like 30 feet.

Right? And you throw yourself over, but you do it in a technique that then you drop down a little bit and you could grab onto the rope and work the way down. So Marcus got there, and he noticed this the technique, and he threw himself over. The only problem was he didn't grab it. And he went down to 30 feet and hit. Boom. And he broke his femur.

So, I mean, to his credit, though, went out, got rolled back and came back. but I mean, that's a good old boy there. But they lied to me, as any good teammates should do, because they didn't want the instructor in trouble. And I bought it, unfortunately. It wasn't until later on that actually Marcus told me the story that I broke my life, Joe,

and he's the one that came clean, you know? Oh, that's epic. Yeah, this must be like the glimpse that you get at human psychology when you're, because I never worked at buds, you know, I went through it, but I never saw it from the other side. The glimpse of human psychology of what people are capable of and what breaks them. And that's got to be a, that's got to leave a mark.

Well, absolutely. And, you know, you literally learn a lot. I mean, now, you know, you and I go through it, but you go through it is different. You're experiencing it. But when you have an opportunity to watch class after class after class, you know, I just remember, you know, my first Hellweek class, and this is Monday night of Hell Week. So they started off at Sunday. They've been out of it for about 22 hours, 23 hours.

They're having their evening meal. And the class outside. And there's a couple of students staying behind in the chow hall, putting the chairs back into the table. Now, I thought that this was somewhat odd. So I'm sitting there with the instructors having dinner. I said, so what are these guys up to? They're just waiting for the rest of the class to leave so they can quit.

And it was true. So you can just say, but what it was is nobody ever quit in the evolution. Everybody quit before the evolution in anticipation of what was going to happen. And just, now, you can argue whether or not it is the most demanding physical course in the military. If it's not, it's close, all right? So I won't argue with anybody. But I will tell you this. it is a far more psychological program than it is a physical program.

Because it's designed to keep you off foot and the standards are raised and raised and raised. Or you're told that this is going to be the evolution today and then they change it. But specifically, can you adjust to that? Can you adjust to that? So it really It is most of the people who fit quit I had a three and a half hour briefing Today down there with our teammates

An update on what the community's up to And Beef Dreschler gave me the pitch And Beef just took over the center on On Friday And they bring in Close to 900 Students a year To get 180

out. 187 is his demand signal and 900. So it's still, in spite of everything that we've done, in preparation issues, when you went through, nobody knew. When I went through, it was a trivial pursuit question. But these guys are prepared, they know what it's doing, and they all, I said to them today, what is it? They self-select, they raise their hand, and we lose a couple from academics. We'd lose some from Pool Comp, but the vast majority of it, this is not for me. And when I used to get the young men in the, you know, now I was not an instructor. And I would get them all after the instructors talked about Hell Week, I'd go in there, and I would just talk to these guys. And Marcus talks about that in his book. I just said, look, it's as simple as this, guys. You know,

every one of you guys can make it through. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here. I mean, you've already been here now for several weeks. If you're not going to make it, you're the one who decides you're not going to make it. It's not going to be us at all. And, you know, it's as simple as this, guys. I mean, this is surely, the secret to life is just don't

quit. Just don't quit. I said, don't doubt yourself. And, you know, these guys, they doubt themselves, but it's, why am I here? And I used to say, when they first came, you know, Buds is,

not the SEAL team. Buds is buds. It is where you need to spend 26 weeks to get where you want to go, but don't even think for a second that this is the SEAL team. But I will tell you this, you put up with this for 26 weeks and you get to that SEAL team, it will make everything that you did here worthwhile. Trust me. I was down there a little while ago and, you know, I was walking around and there was, just with one of my friends. that works there and there's a hundred helmets by the bell a hundred helmets by the bell and he says you know what I said I said that's a lot of quitters this you know whatever it was two weeks in I said that's a lot of quitters and he says you know what every one of those guys is a stud

yeah a stay well and he's he's basically referencing compared to us when we went through you know when I went through I thought if you did a a pull-up workout where you did 30 or 40 pull-ups that That was a pretty good workout. And you don't realize when you get the bud, you're going to do 300 or 400 or 5, but we didn't know back then. But every one of these kids now, they're studs, physical studs, but they still quit.

Oh, yeah, yeah. But the difference, though, physically, I would say, is, you know, when I went through Eric Olson, Bill McRaven was two classes behind me, the way Eric put it, and I think this is right, back then, it depends on your parents were, if you're going to make it through buds because it was endurance.

Everybody had to run forever and everybody had to swim forever back then. So it was a different type of body type. Now, not everybody looks like you, John, but as you know, when I took over the center and these young men lined up next to the pool and just their swimsuits,

it was a completely different physique on those young men, but we were preparing them for different things as opposed to no long-range patrols, you know, no 10 to 12 days in the field, no 13-hour swims, you're going to go to the Hindu Kush, and you're going to go to Balad, and you're going to go to Ramadi, and you're going to go to Fallujah, and you've got to wear heavy equipment, and you've got to carry a lot of stuff,

so it changed. And I don't know what's going to happen now that, you know, we're changing, and Admiral Howard, rightfully so, is going back into the strategic competition, great power competition, and putting the community back into a maritime focus. Get those wetsuits ready, boys. Absolutely. Did you, you know, it's interesting, you know, people always ask who's going to make it through, who's going to make it through. And I would never put a bet on anybody one way or the other of who's going to make it through or not.

I don't care where they came from, what their background was. I remember one of my commanding officers, Captain O'Connell, he told this story to me, and I never forgot it. He had, there was some officer that was put in a package to go to Buds. And he said, I've never backed anyone before. I've never, I've never backed anyone. I've never said this guy's making. This guy had this pristine record. He was an athlete, this, he was captain of that, he was all these things.

He spoke two languages, maybe even three languages, just to complete stuff. And finally, O'Connell signs off his package and says, yeah, take this guy to buds. And the freaking guy quit on him. And he said, I will never, ever back anybody again. And to me, that was a captain that had been in the teams forever and denied all these packages and even with that level of discretion, you can't tell who's going to make it and who's not going to make it. There's Jim?

Jim? Yeah. No, no, you really can't. Because you really don't know what's going on behind the eyes. So we've got members who are on the national teams, whether it's the national swimming team. These are very accomplished people, Division I athletes. But the other thing is well, you get some kid that comes out of high school, goes to boot camp,

did interbule sports, and he's standing tall on graduation day. That's me. 100%. 100%. And I had an Olympic alternate gymnast in my Bud's class, quit. And I had the NCAA water polo team captain in my class. Quit. Yeah.

And like I was, that guy that I was an average, if not slightly below average athlete in high school. And, hey, stuck it out. weren't going to make me quit. That's the way it is. Yeah. Where were you when September 11th happened? I was assigned the United States Special Operations Command. And, excuse me, I was assigned the United States Special Operations Command. And, you know, we talked a little bit earlier, Jocko, about the community and what the fleet

commander said, what my father said. And here I am, I got promoted to one star. at the end of August of 2001. Wow. And a little more than three weeks later, I'm sitting in my office, United States Special Operations Command, and, you know, one of the troops comes,

and he leans against the door jam, and I said, well, it's up. He said, a plane just hit the Twin Tower. So, you know, being a New Yorker. And I'm thinking, okay, you know, this is foggy day, and you've got a small aircraft there, and he's not leaving.

Yeah, and just again, Okay, I got a TV. I said, do you want to turn a TV on? That's what I like, yes, sir. So I'm behind the desk, I got the TV over there, and I look up, I go, it is a perfectly beautiful day in New York. And, I mean, shortly after that, I mean, with moments, I see the other plane flying south on the Hudson River.

You don't fly south on the Hudson River. The plane's going into Newark. You've got to fly north or you've got to go around. And I'm thinking, what an idiot. That guy's flying that plane around just to get a better look at that. How stupid? And then, boom, he goes into the second tower. And I mean, immediately.

And I get up, and I ran into the Socom commander's office, General Holland. And I said, General, we're under attack. We're at war. He said, what are you talking about, Joe? I said, turn the TV on. I said, we're at war. And so obviously, that was a long. day to kind of sort everything out and I finally got home about maybe one o'clock on the

morning, two o'clock in the morning of the 12th and so I'm just having a little bit of orange juice and maybe an English muffet or something try to get a couple hours before I got to go back into work and the phone rings and I pick up the phone I figured it was the headquarters and there's this shrill voice on the other side and just kind of screaming and all of a sudden I realized it's my brother and my brother was at 220 church street which is a block down from the Twin Towers and he was at a meeting and saw the first bill he didn't see the plane hit but he saw the building on fire I said well maybe we should adjourn if you know I mean nobody could believe that it was happening and you know he said so by the time they adjourned

he went out to the street, he actually viewed the people jumping for their lives out of the Twin Towers, which is pretty traumatic. But then he had to walk home across the Brooklyn Bridge all away to his home, which probably wound up being, well, I don't know, maybe about 12 to 15 miles, because there was no transportation. Everything shut down. So by the time he got home, that's when he calls me. And it kind of broke down to, Joseph, get them. I know what you do.

It's up to you guys. Get them. I think I'm just trying to calm them down because, okay, Bob, we'll do my best. And so, one, I never thought I'd be an admiral. Never. And I certainly never thought I'd be an admiral

when a nation was at war. And to have that opportunity to, you know, actually be a flag or general officer serving in the United States military when the nation's engaged, in decisive combat operations was, you know, quite an honor, but also, as you know, Jocko, quite a challenge. And, you know, it took us a while, but we finally did it. And after it, on May 2nd of 2011, I called my brother.

It took a while, Bob, but we got him. And I'll tell you what, when that happened, and now I retired in July of 2010, and I I'm up early in the morning, not as early as you, but probably about 5.30. And I'm in the kitchen and, you know, got a little bit, a cup of coffee as I'm putting my running shoes on. And I thought I heard something on the radio about bin Laden. I mean, I just wasn't paying attention to me. That doesn't. So I just waited until 6 o'clock to hear the news.

And, you know, folks who stayed up late the night before they knew. And I still had no idea. And I heard what had happened. And I was just thinking, I mean, I just sat down there. I couldn't go for a run. I mean, I just had tears in my eyes. And that I know full well, and so do you. The heavy road, the toll that was paid to get to Abadabat,

all of the blood and all the lives, and all the brave men and women, you know, who got there. And so by the time I got to work, you know, everybody's jubilant and saying, you know, I had quiet pride. It was pride because it was our teammates. And then the 160th and the CIA. But it was really emotional for me just thinking about whether it would be Matt Axelson, Danny Deeds, or all of the other folks that, you know, bourgeois, all the men that we lost there, in Afghanistan. And so, yeah, that was, you know, people be getting my haircut,

and how long have you been in the Navy? 36 years. Well, how'd you stay so long? You know, we've been at war for the last 10 years, buddy, you know. And it was on our shoulders. But, you know, when you know full well, this war was personal to you and me and to many of us. And the other thing is, well, it's just hard to explain to people.

how you could become friends through death, that you meet parents and you meet family members that you never knew, but you knew their son, and you buried their son, and you were on your knees giving a mother the flag that was on her son's coffin, and you get to know these people, and you stay close to them, you know,

for a long, long period of time. So, and I wound up there at Socom, And, you know, it was an interesting time for me. I was a baby one star, and it was a small place. We only had five flag of general officers then. The four star, the three star, two Green Beret, two stars, and me. I was the baby. But it was a great place to learn, and one of the officers there, Eldon Bargewell,

was a special forces general officer. And up to that point, Eldon was the most highly decorated soldier in the United States Army. And school was certainly in session for me, working with Eldon. So that when I left there and then went to Naval Special Warfare to take over the community, I left there as the deputy commander under Admiral Eric Olson

and came back close to four years later. And I just remember Captain Barbara Ford just said after that, she goes, oh my God, you turned into an admiral. World War, you know, you had to. Yeah, so. My commanding officer at Seal Team 7, I was on deployment. I was in Iraq having just the best deployment ever,

just having a great time doing a bunch of operations. And he says to me, the last thing I do as commanding officer of SEAL Team 7 is I'm going to make sure that you become the Admiral's aide. He pulled it off. So that's where, that's how you ended up with me. Well, I tell you what, it was wonderful. You know, between you and Beef Treschler, you know, folks out there, you know, you've got a good idea what Jocko looks like, I'm sure. But Beef used to be the center for Navy, and he's also a pretty, pretty strong guy.

Well, my name is Jocko. His name is Beef. I know. Kind of says it all. But when Jocko, when Beef was replacing Jocko, we had the families over for dinner. and we're there at dinner, and my daughter is sitting there, and she's probably about 10 at that point in time, and she looks at the two of these guys,

and she honestly asks, Beef and Jock, are you guys my daddy's flag lieutenants, or you guys, my daddy's bodyguards? And the two of them go, yes. I said, you guys screwed up. You should have told my daughter, your daddy doesn't need a bodyguard. But the truth of the matter is, I sure did.

And if I had one, these two guys, to do it. But no, you know, what I always asked, I never interviewed anybody to be the aid, the flag lieutenant out there, folks. What I would do is go to the senior officers, I go, send me a champion. Send me somebody who's just come out of combat, somebody, somebody who's got a future ahead of them, somebody, somebody who's willing to work really hard. And because I, you know, don't use the flag lieutenant and the aid to carry my bag. I carried my own bag. What I needed was to bring a lieutenant into the meeting to hear what was being briefed or what we needed to be resourced and be able to turn to that lieutenant and say do the men need this is this what they want

or what do they want that we haven't and you know i because that individual whether it was uh jocko or beef came right out of the battlefield and had that credibility it was only a year their turn in the barrel and it's a very demanding job i had been a flag lieutenant myself i understand that but it was just Jocko was a tremendous resource for not only me but the community and then as well when Jocko then went back into

his seal team and became a task unit commander he almost becomes like an apostle to the rest of the community to explain why we do what we do because now he knew he'd been to the inner sanctum but it was an absolute honor and the way I considered to be you and me our relationship

is just like in any relationship of the team we were swim buddies. I mean, necessarily. We had each other's sex. We had each other's back. But I leaned very, very heavily on you, and you never let me down. You always came through, Jacco.

Yeah, and then obviously when we were going through that deployment in Ramadi, it was just awesome. Like I started this off, you know, the support that you gave me and thereby the rest of my task unit was just, it was awesome. Well, you know, we were a community at war. It was on our shoulders. and I know that you were taking it very hard because we were taking some heavies,

but when you're at war, you have to realize you're at war. And there's going to be casualties. But at the end of the day, you were highly successful in your mission, and you came out of that with extreme high regard. But to me, several years later, as you know, were christening a Navy land attack cruiser up in Bath, Maine. And one of the great honors that I've ever had was normally when you christen a ship,

I mean, everybody's there, senators, congressmen, and the Secretary of the Navy is the guest speaker, and the main speaker, and because of my relationship with Mikey Monsor and with you in Test Unit Bruiser, that the Secretary of the Navy asked me to be the guest speaker. speaker there. But I think I also mentioned the speaker. It was Taskin to bruise it. If you got any questions on why we call it that, look at Lieutenant Commander Willey. That's awesome. I know we probably

could talk for another few hours and I know that you got to go, which pretty much to mean means at some point you've got to come back and we can tell the rest of your story because this was not the end of your career of service and you ended up doing much more. And yeah, you'll have to come back and next time you're in Coronado, we'll come up and finish the rest of the story. Yeah, well, I'd say, Jacco, I'd love to come back, and we've had a great visit here in Coronado with the Center, Change of Command, visiting our teammates, spending, you know, three and a half, four hours, getting briefs from on the committee this morning. It's inspirational, but, you know, I believe in a life of service, and as far as a leader is

concerned, you know, you've got to be a, you know, a leader who sacrifices, you know, and when I was asked to come back into government, it wasn't on my scope at all. But I came back in and wound up being the director of the National County Terrorism Center, which I was very comfortable in that. It was my strike zone. But then when the president asked me to become the director of National Intelligence, not necessarily my strikes on him there, but I will tell you, to start off and have a rubber boat in your head, and then years later, you're sitting there as the President's Intelligence Officer at the National Security Council. And even, you know, I had an interesting time there, as I'm sure you know,

that I had a testimony there for three and a half hours in the House Select Committee on Intelligence had to do with the whistleblower complaint. But, you know, for three and a half hours, you're on camera and you've got some, you know, very, very bright and talented people asking you some demanding questions. But it was the very first time that I was really, really happy that I went to high-risk sear and understood interrogation techniques. I'll tell you what, even as that, I knew that was happening and I sat down to watch it. And you can, you know, they look like sharks in the water.

You can see them. They're thinking they're going to, I go, you don't know who you got. Number one is from Brooklyn, number one. Number two, he's in the teams, Harvard, the whole nine yards. I said, this isn't going to go as well as they think it's going to go. No, I didn't, you know, I'd say what. No, I've made that it was

because I will tell you this though, Chaco there not only was I represented the entire United States intelligence community but having spent 36 years in our community I really feel like

here I am, I know I'm on national TV and it's going to be a pretty important hearing which probably would lead to what it did and I just forget I'm still representing the United States Navy and our special operations community So I just figured, all I'm going to do is tell the truth, play it straight.

It's as simple as that. And I did. And I think at the end of it, I felt like I did my job and I was able to leave with my head held high. Yeah, well, that was the other thing I knew. I knew you were from Brooklyn. I knew you were from the teams. I knew that you went to Harvard in the whole nine yards. But I also knew that if they were looking for something that you had done, that was a more,

illegal or unethical, I knew that they could not find it and they would not find it because I know you and I know that you do the right thing and so that's why I watched that with great joy. Yeah well well just before I got the job it was the White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney did the vetting and you know Mick told me said you know I've talked to everybody especially everybody in the special operations community and I couldn't find one person to say something negative about you. Now, I hadn't been offered the job yet. I said, Mick, give me a day. I'll give you a list of people. I didn't necessarily want that job, but I got it and it went okay. Chaco, it's been a great honor. It's so good to be with you, and it's always good to be with

the teammate, but I'm so proud of you. If I'm not only did when you were in uniform, but, you know, what you have accomplished as far as just not only personally, but the way you've been offered to give back with your leadership and what you're sharing with the world, whether your books, your podcast. And there's so many people that I know that listen to this podcast, read your books, and really learn a great deal about leadership. And, you know, folks, I tell you, when people ask me, do I know him, I do, is he the real deal? He's the real deal. And I'm honored more than I could possibly tell you to be with you today. And folks, you know, I do plan on taking Chaco back up on this offer and come back and visit with you sometime in the future. So thank you, my friend.

Be outstanding. And the things I say today are the things I learned from people like you, from our great community. And thanks for coming to talk to us. More important, thank you for everything that you've done for America, for the Navy, for the teams, and, of course, for me. It was an honor to serve with you. And I look forward to talking to you again. Likewise, Chaco, thank you. And with that, Admiral, Joe McGuire has left the building.

And Echo, you didn't even get a chance to sort of ask a question. And we were moving pretty quick and he had another event to attend. So you have to save your whatever. Did you have any questions? Not at the more. I actually asked the one. What's the lockout thing? There's a lot of little stuff, man.

That I'm like, hey, wait, what is that? Not even necessarily because I don't know what it is and I need clarification. A lot of times it's like, I don't know what that is, but it sounds kind of interesting. Maybe not to you guys, because that's part of your guys' everyday thing at the time. But for me, it's like, man, even that. Lockout thing. Brow, that's interesting. And I think it's one of those things where imagine if you were hearing a Jiu-Jitsu story

about like you're caught in an arm lock and you were the, then they had the triangle to and you were, and you, all I would need to tell you since you know Jiu-Jitsu, if I was like, hey, I was caught in the arm lock and the triangle both at the same time. I started having the walls close in. You would know what that meant. Yeah. Someone that doesn't understand Jiu-Zitsu is just like, oh, like kind of, it doesn't really mean that much to them. In fact, it almost means nothing to them. So when the Admiral was talking about

that whole lockout thing in the German U-boat, that is a crazy story. That is a crazy story. The cold, the claustrophobia, the changes in pressures, did that come across? Could you recognize how freaking crazy that was? Yeah, so it did come across, but you know what else was clear to me that that what you're explaining right now, that was the case. And I did not want to interrupt at all. I mean, aside from, at least so I can grasp an understanding of what the lockout procedure is, so I know even more. But yeah, so the claustrophobia thing, anytime you guys talk about submarines,

I do remind myself, because my friend Jeremy would tell me about like these submarines. And there's those little diver vehicle things or whatever. So. Seal delivery vehicles. Yeah. So he'd tell me about that. And it's like, bro, it's not like, it's not like cool. Like on the movies, you guys are cruising in the office with the thing. brother the thing is like super cramped and super and bro I don't like that claustophobia stuff

I know you don't put it this way I'm attuned to certain cramped um 21 inch tube yeah see 21 inch tube yeah yeah so you guys are talking about that and I'm like boom and then yes then you guys are talking about like these procedures like kind of like oh we all know what those procedures are I'm like wait a second we have claustophobia you got freaking the submarine you're under water you doing all this stuff bro I kind of want to hear more it's kind of nuts you know but that's not that wasn't the point that he was making at the time. So it's like, I don't want to derail the momentum of the conversation.

Yeah, well, at some point, maybe we'll go into a little more detail about what those types of operations are like. I was lucky because when I came in to the teams, we still did that in the normal teams. And once the war kicked off,

we didn't really do submarine lockouts in the normal teams very often, if at all. Not to mention, we used to just dive like it was going out of style, like it was going out of style. And once again, once the war started, we're fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. We're not doing a bunch of combat swimmer dives to prepare training dives to prepare to go to Iraq.

Like there's some rivers, but we're not doing harbor infiltration on Drager's. But I was lucky enough to be able to do that a bunch, a bunch. And just get some of that. Get some of that. It is a freaking hard job, man. It's a hard job. You mentioned something kind of. kind of in passing, like kind of quick, where you have the operation,

but all the steps to go through the operation are just completely painful, like completely painful. So, like, you know, you talk about the temperature of the water. If you haven't swam or been in 40, 30-something degree weather, I have ice bath scenario, whatever, but nonetheless, I know what that feels like on that prow. What if that was just your world, you know? That's your world.

That's what I'm saying. That's what was interesting. He was talking about getting into the submarine. After jumping out of an airplane and then landing in the middle of the ocean, then you lock into the submarine going. One person goes in Finn first. It's crazy. And by the way,

then you're just on the submarine. You still haven't even done the mission yet. You're not even close. Darkness. You're not even close. You haven't even started the mission yet. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's like that kind of stuff where it's like, man, you can elaborate on the feeling. of like a 10 second period for a long time and really paint that picture, that would be interesting. That would be nuts. We'll have to get to it at some point. Nonetheless, as you like to say, we might not be in those scenarios, but we want to be ready

for various scenarios. We want to improve our capabilities for diving, swimming, shooting, living, fighting, whatever we're doing. Whatever we're doing. It's true. How do we improve our capabilities? capabilities a little bit here and there. What do you think?

Echo Charles? Where should we start? Interestingly, you talk about diving and swimming. I bought Amanda this a few months ago. So I didn't know that masks for like, you know, diving and stuff had like that many levels to. Oh, there's levels. Bro, there's like some good masks. Anyway, but I got a good one.

And I was like, all right. Makes you kind of want to go swimming more too, by the way. So it's like when you get these things, it kind of pushes you into the game a little bit more. Right. I'll give you an example. All right. So what are we doing? We're working out.

We're reading. We're listening. True. When I say working out, there's various kinds of workouts. Obviously, there's jujitsu. There's weights, running, cardio, mac cons, all this stuff. Nonetheless, you can take some damage on the way. Got some doms right now, by the way.

Squats yesterday. Side note all day. And conditioning. Nonetheless, you might need supplementation. So good news is, Jocka has supplementation. So first we'll start with a cognitive and physical stuff Discipline go kind of groundbreaking in a way very yes so let's start with the cans So energy drink boom it's the new energy drink already established ready yeah the new one the new wave the new paradigm

Isn't it funny there was all these other companies making quote energy drinks and none of them saw this big just giant Gap in the market they were just saying oh we'll put more sugar and more caffeine yeah and and more people will buy it. And they didn't see this big hole. A bunch of people actually wanted to drink things that were healthy and actually gave them real energy, not just a freaking sugar rush multiplied times a caffeine jitter and call that energy. So anyways, they didn't see it. Cool, we did.

Here we are. Yeah, and I get it because, like, you know, as a company or whatever. Like you kind of, some, let's just say some groups kind of play off of weaknesses. of our brains or whatever and go for that superficial, you know, whether it be palatable, you know, just that easy, that easy win, you know, tactical. And they can play off of that. And you can get some good numbers with that.

That's the thing. So they play on like people's weakness in a way. Play on the short-term gratification of human beings. Yes. So if you call that a weakness, we'll play on their weakness, right? But the good thing about this is, you don't play on people's weakness.

You actually play on their strengths. to be honest with you. You help their long-term strategic goals. Oh, yeah. But the good thing, or one of the many good things about this is that it's both short-term and long-term. It's amazing.

Discipline go to energy. And actually, the one that is the most short-term payoff, as far as taste goes, is the mango, factually speaking. Even though you're drinking a whop-ass watermelon right now? You ran out. It was in short supply. I will say this one thing that's cool about these drinks,

the different flavors taste actually taste different. It's not like some other, quote, energy drinks that you can, there's a bunch of flavors, but they're all just basically tastes like sugar, water. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. It's been a long time since I had any other energy drinks, but yeah, I can remember that that was kind of the case, one way or another. Nonetheless, okay, so Displingo, this is, if you haven't gathered already, it's a healthy energy drink.

that you will literally be better off after you drink it than before you drink it. And it fulfills all your energy drink needs. Very legit. Very legit. There's also like the mix, disciplined go, the mix. Mix it up with water, whatever on the go and capsules. So keep this in mind for cognitive and physical supplementation in general. Also get your immune system in check.

Vitamin D3. We got some cold war. We got the joint maintenance and repair, kind of both in. one get some joint warfare get some krill oil and of course of course glory be to the protein gods we have milk yeah it's true right if you're trying to and here's the thing i don't know if we talk yeah we talk about this where yeah if you're trying to like build muscle which i think is a very worthy goal by the way we are in support of building muscle you want more muscle you want less muscle right the day not dichotomy what do you call them the simple decision what do you call that kind of decision

binary decision right you want more you want less all right so if you want more you need need extra protein to add to the muscle that you're trying to build. So do you know the minimum amount of protein you need? One gram per pound of lean body mass. Oh, Jocko coming off the toproves with some bro science from 1996. From what I understand, that's on the high end for sure. Okay, well. But keep in mind.

Let's round it up, right? Well, let's say what? Let's say the average, let's say someone weighs 180 pounds. Okay. So you need 180 grams of protein. You know much protein? That's a lot. It's a lot of proteins in one day.

And stakes are pretty high in protein, so I'm saying? So the milk, this serves that purpose very well. Here's a good thing about milk. Like we already know, it actually tastes good, like actual dessert. So now you can have two desserts. In one day, you'll be better off than you were. And if you're trying to build muscle, boom, facilitate. You can have breakfast, dessert, lunch, dessert, dinner.

dessert. Snack dessert. Get yourself some milk. But you get all this stuff, jacofuel.com. If you subscribe, if you want to get it shipped to your house for free, subscribe at joccofuel.com,

we'll send you all the stuff that you order for free. You can also get the drinks at Wawa on the East Coast. Vitamin shop, you can get all these products as well? And a lot of people hitting me up like, hey, can you get this drink, you know,

in Milwaukee and in Tucson and in L.A. We're working across the country. We're literally having meetings all the time. to get this stuff propagated throughout the nation. Because we don't want, we want everyone to be stronger, faster, smarter, and better. Yeah. So we'll let you know as we get out there. Yeah, it is about the long term and being prepared 100%.

Also, origin USA. So you go to origin USA.com. This is where you can get your American-made stuff apparel. Got some boots on there. Boots and jeans. They'd say that's the what do you call the flagship. kind of scenario yes

there's some jiu-jitsu stuff on there Pete was on there he's demonstrating or how should I say displaying showing whatever some new pants the new work pants yeah I got them

they're freaking legit I am so stoked brother there's some you were talking about wet suits earlier today and to me this is kind of the image I got it's like you were talking about

those old wetsuits and your new high speed Wetsuit it's kind of like so these pants that Pete Pete was showing they're the little video that's the new work band yeah so it's like oh if you get regular work pants cool it isn't it's cool it's better than no work pants it's actually not it's like having one of those old wetsuits yeah but it's better than no wet suit is what I'm saying marginally okay they're that and that's my point and there's no reason to it's not like there's going to be you know there's no reason to back in the day it was hey this is the cheapest government contractor that can build us

wetsuits that suck. Oh, yeah. And then other manufacturers are out there making badass wetsuits, but we didn't get them yet. So there's no reason for that. Oh, yeah. So now you got the same deal. Boom, you want the new, the updated, effective work pants. This is the kind of stuff origin does.

Straight out. That's the game. We're going to make everything, by the way. Oh, yeah. Everything. Also, make geese. And, hey, if you want to put your ghee to the test, come to the origin main. Jiu-jitsu camp retreat intensive.

Immersion. Yeah. Immersion camp. That too. And here's the thing about that too, because sometimes people will be like, oh, is that thing just super intense? Or what? It's like, what's up? Like, jiu-jitsu three times, two times, whatever, a day.

They're like, man, like, I like, I like jiu-tzu, but I don't know if I'm down for these, you know, this hell weak Navy seal. 30% of the people that are there will have less experience in jihitsu than you. even if you only have two weeks of Jujidia. Yeah. And there'll be some freaking awesome badass black belts and brown belts and purple belts for sure. But there'll be a lot of people that are just getting their start in Jiu-Jitsu. So come and check that out if you want to origin. Check origin USA.com.

Yeah. And it's not like it's this big competition training all the time. Bro, I've, and I'm not going to name any names. And actually it's cool. You can go there and not spar with people. Go there. Just learn, learn the technique. Talk with some people.

go swim in the lake straight up like it's a jujitsu vacation that's a good way to put it we should have called it the jih Tzu vacation yeah yeah and and you can even call it a vae depending on your your intent going there you could call it a vacation with some level of jiu jitsu depending on what you're

curious about whatever level jiu you want you can go level 10 even you can go level 10 yeah you can train three times a day you can train you could train probably 14 hours a day if you want to or you could train zero zero it's up to you it's just kind of a a vacation with some level of jih Tzu involved if you want. And lobster.

And lobster and steak. So check it out. OriginUSA.com. Also, we have a store, by the way. Yes. What's that store called?

It's called Jocco store. So anyway, jocco store.com is where you can get your shirts and hats and hoodies, light and heavy. Rash guards on there, some shorts on there. I'm going to update some shorts. Get some new shorts on there too.

Are they the ones that I've been asking for? Yes. Okay. That's good to know. As soon as those come out, I need five pairs. Okay. Just kind of FYI. You got it.

Just kind of FYI. 100%. There's a lot of cool stuff on there. Discipline equals freedom. Good. When you want to represent while you're on the path, this is where you give your stuff. Are the new shorts going to be the same material as the old shorts? You tell me.

I say yes, because they have materials. Good to go. Yes, sir. I agree. I agree. Yeah. So, yeah, some shorts on there as well. Yeah, if you want something, get something.

That's a good way to represent. Also, we have the shirt locker. It's a new shirt. It's a subscription situation, new shirt every single month. Different designs, not as good designs. You're hired. Hey, look. That was a great description.

We collectively have been struggling to demonstrate or to explain the quality of these new designs. You say we got some cool designs. They got some. We do. You could have said that. Yeah. Well, you said there something. That doesn't capture it.

They'll see because every time people are like, hey, that design is cool. Can I have it? And I'd be like, well, that was two months ago. Okay. So I'm saying? So I got to convey it accurately so people know going in. It's an element of trust for sure. But they're cool designs.

Check it out. The shirt locker. Yep. It's on Jocko store. Hey, also subscribe to this podcast. Don't forget we have some other podcasts. We got Jocko unraveling with Daryl Cooper. We got the grounded podcast, which we haven't done in a long time.

We got the Warrior Kid podcast. And we also have the Jocco Underground podcast. Jocco underground.com. If you want to subscribe to that thing and get it. on board and help us build the underground where we're going to be laying in weight in things if things go sideways we'll be there

we're stockpiling material sure we got food we got water we got content jock wonderground.com if you want to check out out $8.18 a month some people know what that $8.18 cents

represents not many though take a guess and if you can't afford it Look, we want you in the game, even if you can't afford that $8.18.18 a month. We'll still just email assistance at jocco underground.com, and we'll take care of that. Also, we have a YouTube channel. We have a YouTube channel where a lot of the videos, some of the videos, I should say, some of the more premier videos have, I'm the assistant director on,

and it's very obvious when they're awesome. You know, it's funny. I released a video recently. Mango Mayhem. Mango Mayhem. So people are catching on to the whole assistant director thing. Why you say it like that? Because, well, because people I think might give you, well, then again, I guess it's not undue credit because the author, I know you say this is kind of a joke, but like every once in a while you'll add like a little detail.

I add a critical detail. That turns out to be kind of critical. So, okay, so in that video. you so bad. It hurts you so bad that whatever I add is usually critical. Okay, so here's the thing. You're, you're right in a way. It doesn't hurt. Okay, we'll use the word hurt. It hurts me, not because, oh, Jocko did it, thought of it and I didn't. It's more that Jocko thought of it. You did it. It's hard to explain. That'd be like if I was writing a book about leadership and then you added it, you were like,

Hey, you need to discuss this thing right here. And I couldn't not do it because it made so much sense. And you know what? My ego would be affected by that. Okay. And that's where you're at. That's the part. Like I, well, maybe it is, but I don't feel overtly that it's my ego.

It's more that like, oh, shoot, I didn't even see that. Like, frick. How can I be so stupid? How can I be so stupid? How could I be so pathetic at my job? No, no, no. How can I not be better? Better.

Not a loser. So, you know, like. You walked up, like in that video, you walked up right at the beginning when you walked up and you're doing this, this part. Yep. Yeah. Like that? That was pretty good. I got to give it to you.

Assistant Director Junk over here. So there's, we got a YouTube channel. You can subscribe to that. And we also have an album that's called Psychological Warfare that will help you get little moments, get through little moments of a weakness. I'll kind of get in your head a little bit. Press play. Go to your MP3 platforms to get some of that. If you need a visual representation of the path, cool.

We got that for you too. Well, Dakota Meyer does. Flipsidecanvus.com got all kinds of cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books. The latest edition, oh, I don't have it on my table. It's final spin. It's a book. I mean, it's hard to describe.

It's a transcript. It's a novel. It's a poem. The publisher doesn't know what to call it. They never seen anything like it. All they know is that they are impressed. All they know is that they are emotionally moved by this piece of work. So if you want to get some of that order it now, final spin, get that first the dish.

You're going to want the first edition of that. Because listen, hey, I'm going to write another leadership book, but guess what? That's another leadership book. So even though you get the first dish of a new leadership book, it still is the first of a dish of a series of leadership books. If you want to get in early on the novels, The first dish. Leadership strategy and tactics field manual, the quality evaluation of protocol. Discipline goes freedom field manual.

Way the Warrior Kid one, two, three, and four. Mikey and the Dragons about faced by Hackworth. I wrote a little forward to that. What an honor that was. And then the OGs extreme ownership and the dichotomy leadership that I wrote with my brother, Laif Babin. We also have a leadership consultancy called Eschalonfront where we solve problems through leadership. Go to Eschalonfront.com for details. EF, oh sorry, Extreme Ownership Academy.

Go to Extremeownership.com if you want to get, if you want to go to the leadership gym. Leadership, you don't learn leadership in one day or by reading one book. You got to get in the gym. You got to be consistent. Go to Extreme Ownership.com. Check out our online training platform.

All kinds of activities going on there. We also have a live event. Next one is Phoenix, August 17th. and 18th. We are not sold out yet. People are a little bit nervous, some people, I guess, about Ms. Rona. But we are getting close.

So that's Phoenix, August 17th and 18th. After that is Las Vegas, October 28th and 29th. Those of all sold out in the past. These will too get in on it early. Go to Ashlamfront.com. Check the events. And if you want to help service members active and retired, You want to help their families, Gold Star families.

Check out Mark Lee's mom. You heard about Mark Lee today. What a freaking hero he was. And his mom has been carrying on his heroic attitude with her charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org. And if you, well, let's face it, if you want any more of my tedious testimonies, or you want to have, for some reason, You want to hear more of Echo's ridiculous reflections.

You can find us on the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram, which Ego only refers to as the gram. And Facebook, Echoes at Echo Charles, and I am at Jockle-Wilink. And thanks once again to Admiral Joe McGuire for coming on, for sharing his experiences, but more important. And I think you realize this. Thank you to the Admiral for your incredible service to our great name. And of the rest of the military out there right now, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps,

thank you for your service as you protect freedom and democracy around the world. And the same goes to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, and all the first responders out there. Thank you for protecting us here at home. And to everyone else out there, think about the impact that you. can have and yeah think about it your own life and you want to have a positive impact in your own life but think about the positive impact that you can have on others think about what you can do by reaching out to people by supporting them by doing like admiral mcguire did for me by being

there for people by helping them shoulder some of that weight it isn't about you it's about the team so support your team Support your family, your friends, your community by going out there every day and getting after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.