Jocko Podcast - 293: Rickson Gracie. "You Do a Good Job Staying Calm in Bad Positions. That Is an Important Thing." Jiu Jitsu is Life.

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

0:00:00 - Opening0:05:01 - Rickson Gracie.3:04:29 - Final thoughts3:11:49 - How to stay on THE PATH.3:38:55 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 293 with Echo Charles and me, Jocker Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Hicks and Gracie approached me and asked me if I wanted to train with him. Yes, sir. At that time, I was a blue belt and jujitsu, a lean 225 pounds. I worked out every day and had been training jiu-jitsu hard for about two years. I had competed at the blue belt level and won many competitions.

I trained daily in San Diego with Dean Lister, a future world champion, and with many other highly skilled Jiu-Jitsu practitioners. I was focused and motivated and determined, but none of those things mattered. Hickson, who was 40 pounds lighter than me, made me feel like a child. He effortlessly controlled my movement, isolated my limbs, and submitted me over and over and over again. in. I fought hard. Applied technique after technique, made adjustments, tried to surprise him, used all the strength and trickery and skill and effort I could muster. My resistance was futile. There was nothing I could do. Nothing. When he was bored with my pitiful attempts at survival, we stopped sparring and talked for a bit. He asked me about

seal training he related to the warrior culture of my occupation he also gave me an assessment of my jiu jutsu quote you do a good job staying calm and bad positions that is an important thing end quote soon the class was over we shook hands and i thanked hickson for his time and for his knowledge and over the next few days i thought about what he had told me you do a good job staying calm in bad positions that is an important thing I realized that this did not only apply to Jiu Jitsu it applied to my job in the SEAL teams as well you are going to get put in bad positions the enemy might get the upper hand you might be outnumbered or outgunned panic will destroy you you have to stay calm and that was only

the beginning of the correlation I began to see from jujitsu to combat to leadership to business and to life itself as I continue to learn jiu jitsu and progress in my seal career jiu jiu jitsu taught me much but it was hickson's words that initiated my journey the principles of jiu jitsu can be applied to every endeavor in life you have to stay calm when you are in bad situations you need to cover and conceal your intent with other maneuvers you need to utilize the simplest and most efficient methods you need to prioritize Your focus of effort You need to train until you trust yourself to move intuitively without having to think you need to move at the right time

You need to do to defend critical areas You should not attack your enemy's strong points you must utilize leverage You cannot let your emotions drive your decisions you have to establish a good base foundation to build upon You cannot be overly aggressive, but you can't just allow things to happen When you make a move, you have to believe in what you are doing. You have to be mentally strong. You have to keep an open mind. You have to continuously learn new techniques while always reinforcing the fundamentals.

You have to adapt your plan if circumstances change. The list goes on and on. When I deployed to Iraq as a seal combat leader, I continuously operated with these fundamental principles in my head. ones that I understood because of Jiu-Jitsu. I continue to utilize these principles now in the civilian world as well. As a businessman, a teacher, a father, and a coach, Jiu-Jitsu gives me confidence, but also humility. Strength, but also compassion, a disciplined code,

but also a free and open mind. As Hickson says, Jiu-Jitsu is not just a sport. Jiu-jitsu is a philosophy, and it is at the root of everything we do. And that right there is an excerpt from a forward written by me for a new book that is called Breathe, a life in flow. And is written by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu legend Hickson Gracie. And it is an honor to have Hickson here with us tonight to share some of his stories. his philosophies of jiu-jitsu and his lessons learned. Hickson, thank you so much for joining us.

It was an honor to have you here. My pleasure, Joko, and it's a great pleasure to see you guys. First of all, I like to really thank you, and it's an honor for me to have you do the introduction in the book. It was a special compliment for me because you're such a highly skilled motivation, warrior. And with all your say, let's kind of establish a very high end for my journey. So I appreciate your support, my brother.

Yeah, I've often talked about the fact of what Jiu Jitsu gave to me. And what Jiu Jitsu gave to me was connecting all these things. I started to see Jiu Jitsu everywhere and everything became related to Jiu Jitsu. And really, I, it was in, I think it was 1996 or 1926. 1997 when I went up and I stayed in a in a crappy hotel up in Los Angeles for like like 10 days or something and I went to Pico your academy at Pico every day and and just Was absorbing I'm still sore from those sessions I have good memories people at people would ask me what it's like what it was like to train with you and

I said I've told people if you've ever felt the pressure of a high-powered hose, like a high-powered hose just water just bearing down on you. And when you move a little bit, it doesn't matter. It just flows around you. That's what it felt like when I was rolling with you, everything that I tried, you were already there waiting for me. And the pressure and the tightness,

but at the same time, the fluidity, it's hard to describe. Yes, Jujitsu is a very, is a very, very special technique because give you the sense of utilizing your body, but not exactly trying to stress yourself. It's a continuous motions with leverage and angles and the ability for you to bring, based on weight distribution and different grips and maneuvers, the chance for you to flow into an... harmonious control because it's not about holding and fighting for, but it's about to understand

the motions and be ahead of the game. So when you escape from the neck, you already give me the arm. And the idea for the one who's suffering the attack, the pressure, is no relief until you tap. But for me, it was just a continuous understanding of what's next. And it's not a and the ability to move and to be there in the right precision time. So it's a very interesting technique and give me this chance for really use not only my techniques, not only my physicality, but also my mindset and my emotional control. And also what I believe is a very important tool for the spiritual water is using the spiritual energy from forgiveness and acceptance,

and not fear death and accepting the circumstances in a way to be, like you said, comfortable in hell, you know. So as many things which Jiu-Jitsu favor you to accept life as it is and transform the battle and a growing situation for your mind and your spirit. So Jiu-Jitsu is a great component for anyone. Yeah, I try to do that. I try to explain to people sometimes that when you do jiu-jitsu, the more jiu-jitsu you do,

you get to a point where you can kind of see the future because you know what this other person's going to do. And when you know what they're going to do, you can be there waiting for them because you know what they're going to do. And it's the same thing with anything that you practice and you train and you pay attention to. You can get to a point where you can kind of predict the future. And I think some people say, you know, you're a couple moves ahead in jiu-jitsu. And the better you get, the more moves ahead you're going to be. Yes, similar to chess, chess game, you know. If you play a guy who's a champion, he's already know what you're going to, when you move a piece,

he knows five or ten movements ahead, and he's already to strategize your defeat. So I felt like the same in jiu-jitsu, you can anticipate the motions based on the me. mechanics and the tension. So you can capitalize basically always in some kind of mistake or some kind of lack of timing or something like that. So you wrote this book. I was lucky enough, like, honored to be able to write the forward, but that also meant I got to read the book early and I have a copy of it here.

And just want to kind of jump into some of the book and talk about how you grew up, which is, I mean, it's just an incredible. journey's been incredible your whole families had such a huge impact on the world and it's very interesting to kind of hear what it was like for you and growing up inside this this such an influential family so let's jump into the book a little bit um here we go by the time i was born my father was already one of brazil's biggest sports icons in addition to being incredibly tough fighter, he was also a showman of the highest order who publicly challenged boxing icons Primo Carnara, Joe Lewis, and Ezard Charles. Although the boxers all declined in 1932,

wrestler Fred Erbert, Ebert, accepted 17-year-old Aalios Challenge. Alio is your father. Ebert outweighed him by about 50 pounds, but they fought for an hour and 40 minutes before police stopped the fight. Two years later, my dad fought 225-pound world champion wrestler Vodzik Zabaisko to a draw. When Japan's greatest judoka, Masahiko Camura traveled to Brazil in 1951, Elio also challenged him. Camira agreed to fight my dad if he could first defeat Yukio Kato, one of the black belts traveling with him. My dad's first fight with Cato was declared a jaw, but Aalio choked him unconscious in the rematch, clearing the way for a match with the judo champion. Aalio and Camura squared off in front of 20,000 spectators a week later, and even the president of Brazil attended the match.

The judoka outweighed my dad by 80 pounds and threw him around the ring like a rag doll, but could not finish him. At one point, my dad went unconscious, but because he didn't tap, Camura thought that he was. the choke wasn't working and released it and ALEO regained consciousness. 13 minutes into the fight, the judo champion secured a bent arm lock and again my dad refused to tap. Camura kept twisting and ripping at his shoulder. Still, Aalio refused to tap, but Camura kept cranking and my uncle Carlos threw in the towel. My dad later said he got his samurai spirit from Camira and named the bent arm lock the Camura. So there's your dad.

your dad weigh. 140 pounds? 135, yeah. Was a light guy. And going up against Kimira, who's a beast. And by the way, you can see at least parts of this match online. You can go and Google it and see this match. Yes, yes. Kimura was the champion in Japan, which is very unusual for a champion in Japan to become five years consecutive champion. Normally every six months, they trade places. But Kimura was established and a true champion in the Japanese community. And when he went to Brazil, my father challenged him, and then he fought Kato first. And the fight with Kimura, Kimura put in the newspaper, if he passed three minutes, he was already winning the fight.

Like if Elio survives three minutes, he wins. and the fight went to 13 minutes. So in one point, the whole crowd saying, oh, it's done, it's done, stop the fight, he's already won. But the fight continues, and my father got submitted by Kimura. And even though after that fight, Kimura went to my father's house with a translator,

inviting him to teach in the imperial school in Japan because he said the Jiu-Jitsu he knows Japan has forgotten. And I don't believe it's like that exactly because a big part of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was created

by my father exactly because my uncle Carlos learned from Maeda, from Condi Koma. And Maeda was a champion. He's been fighting for all over and went to Brazil to settle. And he started teaching Uncle Carlos, based on the friendship he has with my

grandfather. And in that process, Uncle, T. Charles, learned a lot from Maeda, but Elio was 12 years younger than my uncle and was a very young kid at this time. And then they went to Rio in 1925, settled in Rio, and my uncle Carlos opened his first school in 1925. At this point,

my father could not do any sports. He was, doctor said for him to not do anything, not playing soccer, not ride a bike, not skate,

nothing, because he's very skinny and he has vertical all the time. So he's passed out any effort, he's passing out. So he had to rest.

So my uncle opened this school, my father sitting on the corner all the time watching my uncle teach. And for three years, from 13 years old to 16, he was just watching, amazed watching all the details, all the says, all the moves. But he never practiced. And one day, a student arrived at the school, and my uncle was not there yet. So my father said, Mr, if you want to do, let's play a little bee. until my brother arrive. So with that, they start to practice. Half hour later, my uncle arrive.

And the students said, Carlos, if you don't mind, I like to keep training with the kid because he's so good. I love to practice with him. So, and that's the way my father get into Jiu-Jitsu practice. But different than a normal person, my father could not do one pull-up, one pull-up, or one push-up.

he don't have the strength and the muscles to do that. So he basically, a choke, for example, which is a, he learned as an arm movement where you grab the corals and squeeze the guy to choke, he could not even think about choke somebody with the strength on his arms. So he has to bring together and use the chest, which transforms the whole pressure on the choke,

giving less effort muscularly and much more efficiency, So just a very simple example of how my dad, in every movement he could do, he adapt for him, for his own weakness. And it's another very important element is he was so light and so small, he could not ever fight on top, mount positions, passing guards, and kick ass from the top. So he was able to just stay on the bottom regardless, and he was able to create from the guard position, position as such a new arsenal of tricks because he has nothing to do but guard. So he developed a guard in a very Elio Grace style and a Brazilian style which doesn't belong to Japan at all.

All the ground techniques from the bottom are developed by my father, which is weak enough to not do other things. So he's improving. We normally say in the family, Elio Grace is for Jiu-Jitsu as Einstein is to physics. He's a creator, he's a genius, is impossible to compare. And follow this idea of total connection

with the techniques and the development. The Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu becomes more like effective and the valetudo and the no-holds bar and effectiveness overall with Ghi, without Ghi, because gives to the weaker ones. elements to submit the bigger one. So I felt like Jujitsu really becomes an art for a weaker one after pass through Brazil.

Before, Condi Coma, Condi Maeda Coma, was very effective. He has many, many victories. But he was a stock guy. He was solid, strong Japanese. Not too tall, but it was very solid, maybe 80 kilos or 85 kilos or something. So he was dealing Jiu-Jitsu and his own form of athleticism, which is different than what my dad implies.

So we are very grateful to have Eric Gracey and the family to bring another possibility for our style. Yeah, it seems like in Jiu-Jitsu, when you have Jiu-Jitsu like that, it's the situation where, like you said, somebody that's smaller and weaker can defeat someone that's bigger and stronger. And everybody that starts Jiu-Jitsu for the first time,

when I started Jiu-Jitsu for the first time, you know, I was, like I said, I was 220 pounds. My first teacher was Fabio Santos. I think he weighs, I don't know, 150, 160 pounds. He would just do whatever he wanted to me. And he was an old man at the time. He was probably younger than I am right now. He seemed like he was an old man.

I said, how's this old man with gray hair, going to do anything to me? And Jiu-Jitsu allows you to do that. Jiu-Jitsu is, you know, what your dad, because he had, like you said, because he was smaller, because he was weaker, he had to develop that style. And it's so effective. Yes. Leverage replaces strength, you know. Techniques replaces speed.

So when you have the perfect combination, you can anticipate the movement. You can use time at your favor and other deflection. is a very interesting concept of winning without really banging heads to head. You have to make, like, set him up or fake or set up in a way to almost surprise the guy in defeat, not exactly smash him, you know. It's too brutal sometimes.

It's too much too bulls fighting. You know, I love to see the articulation of a technician, the strength. So for me, I was amazed about the effect and the possibilities of jujitsu. I'm going to fast forward a little bit. And just so everybody knows, I already skipped a bunch of the book. You know, you talk about the originations of the family. It's very interesting. You know, you came from, I think you had, you had a, what was a great, great, great-grandfather that was in the Civil War on the Confederate side? Yes. The Gracie families

is in the warfare for long time. Yeah, you mentioned, what was it? Archibald. This guy, Archibald Gracie. And Archibald Gracie, or Alchabald the third was a warrior. At West Point, he earned Superintendent Robert Lee's respect after he got beaten up in a fight on the parade grounds. When Gracie was called in the Lee's office,

he refused to give up the name of the man he was fighting. After his opponent turned himself in, Lee did not punish either of them. When America's Civil War, War broke out, Archibald Gracie the third sided with the Confederacy. He started the war as a major, but after fighting heroically in some of the

conflicts fiercest battles, Gracie was a brigadier general at the age of 29. Robert Lee survived the Civil War, but Archer Bald Gracie III did not. Yeah. So that's the side that went to America. Yes. I didn't know much about it until Peter, which wrote the book with me, he's

a historian and war military professor, so he enlighten me with that kind of interesting story. Yeah, and I actually looked up on the internet and saw a picture of Archibald Gracie the third dressed up in his Confederate uniform. It's so crazy. Yeah, you go into some more of those details, which you kind of discussed about the history of how it came from Japan to Brazil, how your uncle got involved, how your brother got involved, Those details are so rich in the book.

It's so fascinating to read from a jiu-jitsu perspective, but also just from a historical perspective in the world. I'm going to fast forward a little bit to what it was like for you growing up. You say initially we kids went to the academy just to play tug-of-war or have a game of soccer. We were introduced to jihitsu slowly, nothing like what I see these days. Today, too many parents push their kids to compete before they are ready. For young kids, jiu-jitsu should be nothing more than a fun form of recreational. that introduces them to the movements through games and structured play as they get older you can introduce more Jiu-jitsu but it should be playful if you push kids too hard too young they will quit forever

Parents should never burden their kids with their unfurfilled ambitions frustrations anxiety or any other form of emotional baggage Parents support the parents support must be consistent the most important thing is that the child gets the experience win, lose, or draw without judgment. So this is something a lot of parents need to hear. This is something I wish I would have heard earlier. I was telling you before we started, I definitely pushed my kids too hard into Jiu-Jitsu.

Maybe that was my unfulfilled ambitions that I tried to impose on my own children. And, you know, I read a book later in life. And it talked about how, you know, you want to make things fun for your kids. And it sounds like for you guys, at the beginning, Jiu-Jitsu was just fun. Yes, because, you know, it's a must for us.

We, no matter what, we represent, I mean, we are graces. We all dress geese from, I mean, I get my ghee before my diapers. So we all become little graces, and our identity is recognized by, oh, you're going to be a champion shoe, you're going to fight like your dad. So it's natural for you using gear, training, sparring. It's all fun. And I never felt like it was a serious business. Even competing because my dad didn't put me pressure.

He always, like, my first competition, he said to me, he asked me if I want to compete. I said, yes. And then he said, if you win, I give you a gift. If you lose, I give you two gifts. So that's kind of in between lines, say, my dad's not going to. be upset with me if I lose. So I didn't know what's really represent that kind of statement, but I

felt like my dad is not going to be upset, so that's a plus. And I lose that fight, and I don't even remember if I get two gifts or not, but what I felt from that situation is my dad was not upset, is okay,

and after that I keep continue competing, and I was successful in my other fighters fights, but was a good support of my dad and no pressure make me feel like jiu-jitsu is something for me to practice regardless of somebody else's

judgment. You go on to say this. You say even as a small boy, I silently observed from close proximity fear, courage, aggression, and cowardice. I noticed small things about people because they provided clues

about their true nature. Things as simple as the way someone shook my hand, the way people acted when they won and the way they acted when they lost told me a lot. I often wondered why a guy who beat me so mercilessly made excuses not to train with my older brothers. I didn't judge them. I just knew that I didn't want to be like them.

There's a lot of human nature that gets revealed on the Jiu-Jitsu mats. Oh, no doubt about it, man. I was young and I would start helping my brother, Horion, to teach, I was 13, 14 years old. And I was there like a dummy, you know, so Hickson, lay down, John, Mount, and just to practice movements. So I was helping him to teach. And I got a little tip after the class, you know, he gave me some ice cream or some.

So I was there to just watch and teaching and helping. And then I asked my dad, said, Dad, what I should do to be the best teacher? And then he said to me, if you want to be a good teacher. If you want to be a good teacher, you learn a good arm lock, a good escape from the bottom, whatever, and teach your student and he will be efficient on do the technique. But if you want to be an excellent student, you have to see, you have to try to understand what the students needs to learn. So it's not about what I want to teach. It's about why he needs to learn. So based on that, another route was created because I cannot just be a jiu-jitsu teacher.

psychologist and understand what I need to teach to make happens to make the guy seeking happiness more efficiently. So I student who stands and claustrophobic, I will teach him to be calm and relax and do the movements almost in slow motion. For the guy who stands and try to be tough and aggressive and so calm down and relax. So the other guys are lazy. Come up, man. Come up.

I bring the energy needs to be naturally on him. So it becomes a half psychology, half jiu-jitsu class. And that was a big transformation for me because I started to understand my service as something to enhance people's lives, qualities of life. You know, it's not about being just a martial arts or a teach you to fight. I have to teach you to breed.

I have to teach you to strategize. I have to teach you to have a... emotional control. I have to teach you to visual, make visualizations. I have to teach you to not only using the technical elements, but also the spiritual elements. I have to teach you to have hope, faith, and things like that. So another for you to become an expert in Jiu-Jitsu, is you basically becomes an expert in life too, because you know how to put yourself in situations and be able to recognize the situation and see if you need a better calmness in your brain,

a better control in your body, or if you have to really surrender to a higher God and input. Because in one point, we cannot be afraid of death, you know. And if you're able to understand your mission, your commitment, your honor are above that kind of, that line, you become a fearless opponent because you're not afraid to die at all. How a Navy SEAL can go to battle not visualizing the possibility to die? How a fireman can save a kid from a structure without the slice chance of him to die and fall

with. So once you become comfortable and the acceptance of a result you're not in control, become a much more complete, not a warrior, because you just find your mission as a priority, not exactly. So in representing Jujitsu was a big thing for me which transcends my life, my physicality. It was something I put my honor and my fate on top of everything. So I was able to accept in challenges and be ready for challenges, which different than a soldier representing an army. which you have commands, you have weaponry, you have strategies, you have situations which are not exactly up to you.

For me, by representing my sport, I was preparing myself for no time limits, no rules, no cups, no mouthpieces, no weight division. So how unpredictable this can be. how much I have to be on my toes, how much I have to accept my final moment, how much I have to be calm in the day before in order to achieve my success. So it's a lot of aspects of my life,

not only the technical, not only the spiritual, not only the mental. I have to be checking every day and being calm enough. So that's why in my career, I was putting a lot of attention and my breathing. I'm putting a lot of attention and take ice baths before anyone tell me about it.

So I start to creating situations which kind of put me myself on the edge and being fearless, being connected with my spiritual guidance and accepting anything, even death, if it was the case. So I was preparing myself to be a warrior, but without the,

the command without the force behind me was just like a, I have to create a lot of things to deal with the pressure, you know. And I felt like today I'm not a Jiu-Jitsu fighter anymore, I have many injuries, but I still, in my mind, sharp as always, using all my invisible tools in Jiu-Jitsu to keep me on my best game in terms of using timing, using visualization, using breathing, using the capacity for me to emotional control and the capacity to surrender, forgiveness.

And another important thing too is all my warfare, all my situations, I don't resolve with hate. I love to fight, I love to use Jiu-Jitsu, I love to represent, I love to put myself on the edge. So love was a, big important part of my history because I never been ordered to do something. I never been obeying people to do something. I always, a free will.

And I put myself in the situations I not regret, but I was tough situations to be in based on my own passion, based on my own love. So I've been a warrior which being guided by the heart, not by the rationality. and this is kind of a little different. Yeah, it's interesting. It's different. One of the things you said, and again, there's so many connections that I make with Jiu-Jitsu

with battle, with life, with relationships, with everything. And just one little example you said. There's sometimes in Jiu-J-T-Tur you've got to calm down. You've got to remain calm. You get put in a bad spot. You've got to calm. You've got to relax. You've got to not panic.

You've got to think your way through it. You've got to wait for your moment. There's other times. in Jiu Jitsu where if you don't explode and make a move right now, it's going to be too late. Yes. And you have to, and it's the same thing in, you know, if you're in a business, you might have a situation where you've got to calm down, you got to make a decision, you've got to think through it.

But there's other times where you've got to make a move right now. On the battlefield, the same thing. Sometimes something's starting to happen. You're starting to see the enemy do something, and you need to wait and be calm and relax and detach and not get emotional. There's other times something happens. You've got to go right now. And Jiu-Jitsu, you use.

start to identify that, look, there's times where you've got to take a step back, relax, you've got to be calm. And there's other times where you've got to be aggressive, you've got to make things that happen right now. And those type of lessons that, again, I learned them a little bit from my seal training. I learned them a little bit interacting with my, from a leadership perspective. But when I really started to see it was when I, when I started training jujitsu all the time and started recognizing, oh, sometimes you've got to be calm. Sometimes you got to be aggressive. Sometimes you've got to be flexible. Sometimes you've got to be strong in that position. And you've got to know when to make these adjustments in your life.

Yes. I feel like with the practice of Jiu-Jitsu, like you said, give you more awareness of the situation to be in. And the sense of applying the right action for the right action for for the situation, is based on reflexes, is based on practice, is based on preparation, which sometimes that preparation comes from a understanding, a strategic understanding. Sometimes that preparation coming from a heavy training, a heavy, muscular and explosive training, or sometimes the preparation coming from a completely emotional control. I was kid about 12, 13 years old, practice with men's at the academy. After the class, everybody training a little bit together.

And they all took care of me. I was a kid still and training with adults. And in one particular practice, this strong guy, Blue Belt, gave me in a headlock. And I was caught in a headlock. I was not able to escape. I was not able to be comfortable. And normally we don't tap in our headlocks because you can keep and keep breathing.

But I was get panicking and tap. And it was like a disappointing for me. I cry a little bit. The guy said, hey, kid, you okay? I'm okay, thank you. But I am very, so I was pissed. And I went back home. And when I arrived, I decided to lay down on the floor

on top of a carpet. and ask my brother, Halls, I kind of stay straight like this, and ask my brother to roll me in the carpet, like a burrito. Hicks and burrito. Yes, and it was like a summertime in Brazil, about 110 human, very hot. And I said, just take me from here in 10 minutes.

So first minute was struggling, it's catastrophic, and I start to thinking about seagulls and breeze on the ocean and ocean breeze and the nice wind. And I eventually passed through the experience. My brother relieved me. And then in the same year, I did three more times just to make sure I could handle that kind of suffocating agony and claustrophobic feeling. So that's just to show how competitive I was and how much on top of my problems. I was fixing my problems as the problems happened. And I was just comfortable and become, you know, agonizing and breathing, suffocating.

And then I start to be calm and find myself in peace. And then I felt like this is not going to happen with me anymore. I never going to tap in headlocks anymore because it was just the way I felt like I was fixing my emotional. Yeah, that's, you're confronting your weakness. is what you're doing. I remember when I started Jiu-Jitsu, I hated being on the bottom because I was bigger

and if I could get on top of someone, I could smash them and be okay. And I hated being on the bottom. And for that reason, I remember one time for, it must have been a year. Every time I rolled with anybody, I started on the bottom.

And oftentimes with them across side or maybe even mount just to get used to that and get over the fact that I didn't like it. You have to, in Jiu-Jitsu, just like life, you've got to face your weaknesses and you've got to correct them. Yes, definitely. Now, you mentioned your brother, Holes. I want to give just a little bit of background of your family, which is hard to give a quick background of your family.

Yeah, so many champions. It's crazy. It's huge. You have this section here. Carlos Gracie, this is your uncle, decided to, this is he, so he lost two loves of his life. life. He lost his fiance and his first wife. Is that right? Yes. They both died. So after they died, Carlos Gracie decided to father as many children, preferably boys as possible, and he encouraged my father to do the same. Their goal is to create a clan of fighters. Between 1932 and

1967, Carlos and Alio fathered 30 children with eight different women. 21 of them were boys. When Margarita, my father's first wife, the woman I consider my mother, was unable to get pregnant. My uncle came up with the plan. My father, with my mother's knowledge and consent, would impregnate our African-Brazilian babysitter. Belina? Am I saying that? Belina, yes. Belina, who gave birth to me and my older brothers, Horian and Helson.

The whole thing was an elaborate ruse. Margarita wore a fake belly during Belinda's pregnancies, and when the time came for her to give birth, she went to the hospital and came home with a baby. with a baby. Not even her best friends knew. When I was young, I looked at myself in the mirror and saw freckles. I thought they were from my Scottish blood. Little did I know I was half African Brazilian. Man, that's a crazy story. Yes, man. That's part of the Gracie fanatic idea of growing Jujits and creating a clan. You know, it was just epic. Epic. So with that, let me, let me go a little bit further. So now you got all these brothers. I'll go back to the book. This is fast for in a little bit. I studied all my brothers with great interest when we trained because

they had different strengths and weaknesses. I want to know who was brave, who was scared, who would fight to the death, who was crazy, who is indecisive. Nobody impressed me more than my brother Holes. A decade older than me, he was our leader and my idol because he was an incredibly charismatic person and a natural warrior. Holes was Uncle Carlos's son from Claudia, an 18-year-old woman who for my family because my mother Margarita could not have children Uncle Carlos gave holes to my dad to raise as his own son when he was a baby. Holes grew up with us and shared a room with me for much of my childhood. And this is what's interesting when you talk about holes.

Fast forward a little bit. My brother's open mind helped him in Jiu-Jitsu because he was willing to look outside of it for ideas when other family members were not. Holes trained and competed in judo, wrestling, and samba, which he used to improve jujitsu. Like Aalio, he always wanted to win by submission and had an aggressive attacking style. If I disappointed holes, there was nothing that I was not willing to do to redeem myself. So that's, that holes with that attitude, that open mind where he was doing samba and wrestling, I mean, that's a game changer. Completely. He was just such a brave fighter in water and competitive and with a good open mind to understand.

Jiu-jitsu is great, but doesn't have the ability to throw as a judo. Doesn't have the ability to get some other situations like wrestling, some maneuvers from bottom to the top, some reverses. So adding this, we're not going to hurt nobody. It's just going to add. for us the capabilities of not only controlling better from the top, throwing better from the standing aspect, and also be doing what we do good in terms of Jiu-Jitsu. So it was just a complete improvement in our capacity to handle the athletes all over. So it was just a great addition. And for me, Holtz was always being the number one guy.

He pushed me the most different than Hordeon, which is very technical. But Horian was less competitive. And I was very competitive. So I was seeking to do what Hollis does. You mentioned Horian here a little bit. Nine years older than me, my brother Horian could not have been more different than Holes. Aalio's first son with our birth mother, Belinda, Horian was 10 months younger than Holes.

Horian had an easygoing nature. And while he was never the fighter that Holes was, he was a born teacher. Training with Horean included the theory behind such concepts as positioning, technique, leverage, and base. He explained Jiu-Jitsu much better than Holes, who was inpatient and saw things as either black or white. He had a big influence on my teaching style and got me to focus as much on the person as the techniques.

Our father taught us that a good teacher taught the techniques well, but that a great teacher taught what each individual student needed to learn. In strife or in life, Horian was a great teacher. Eight years older than me, this is another brother. Helson might have been the best fighter in the family, if he will say. such a wild man. Helson would show up at a tournament having had no sleep, still hung over from a night on the town.

But when he put on his ghee and tied his belt, he turned into a Tasmanian devil. Helson would fight all day, almost die, but win. This is a fast forward a little bit, just a little glimpse into what it's like being in the family. Aalio encouraged competition among us and always wanted to see who stood, wear in the Gracie food chain.

There were confrontations and tests. My dad would step on the canvas, tarp, clap his hands and say, okay, Horian, holes, go. And without hesitation, they would step forward and spar. Holes and Horeen had totally different attitudes toward life, which were reflected in their jiu-jitsu. There was never any question that holes was the best of our generation. Now, you get this sort of side of the martial arts family growing up, training all the time, but you're also in Rio, which is a crazy place and the lifestyle that you had going on there,

which you talk about here going to the book. Rio is like New York City and Bangkok combined. It is a turbulent, whatever you want, whenever you want it, mix of sex, crime, drugs, nature, and beach culture. Although we lived in a nice apartment in Copa Cabana, Rio is not like L.A. There's not a rich town like Beverly Hills and then a poor one like Compton. They are combined. One minute you're in Beverly Hills and the next you turn down a side street and you are in Compton. As a kid, I developed street smarts.

From gangbangers to fighters to the high society matrons to the surfers to the most beautiful girls in Ipanema, I wanted to understand all of it. I would often ditch school and just walk around Rio. I had normal rounds that I made through the city. So you're kind of living this kind of crazy. Turbulent lifestyle. And you're just drawn to that. Very much. Because, you know, in my house, I was the youngster.

And Halls, Horian, and Helson was 8, 9, and 10 years older than me. So when I'm about 11, 12, I like to hear what they say to keep up with, you know. So for me, when I go home, I was listening and learning with those smart guys, you know. And when I go to the street, I don't want to stay. stay with the 10, 11-year-olds, which are just thinking about silly things. I was just walking with the older guys talking about things I hear my brother's talking. And the guy said, hey, this kid is not, he's not what he's saying. So I was trying to be very, you know, compatible with the higher-level street guys I see on the street.

So that's kind of pull me in a very soft place because I have to be smart, I have to be very much solid with them, show no fear, to be able to walk with them, to be able to get in the car and go some surf somewhere. So I was there to just show them. can handle, you know. So I was just give me a mission I will do, you know. Sometimes the guys they want to smoke pot, for example. And nobody wants to go in the dealer's spot because they all want to afraid of the cops. I was 12-11. I said, no, I can go with my trunks. I can go up and down, hide the thing and nobody going to see it. So I was just being like the kid, which

helps the older guys to get what they need. So I was just doing things. regardless of right or wrong, I just try to keep myself in a position to be respected from the boys on the hood, you know, and being like a street guy, not exactly a spoiled kid, which is forbidden to play on the street or something. So I was just taking care of my life as I was 18, 19, and I was just 12, you know. And you ended up kind of running with a gang of kids. Oh, yeah. I mean, for me, it was a demonstration of courage, demonstration of being tough. It was not about doing right or wrong. It's about to be able to keep with the boys and be respected in the hood as a guy who can not going to flick.

You know, we're not going to. So that's kind of giving me a good sense of be part of a team, which is a tough team. The guys, they're all fighters, they all tough kids, they all, you know, very, very much born to just do trouble and things. And I was starting to growing up a little bit, I start to see all those values I learn on the street are not values I should take in my life if I want to grow up and represent what I want.

So my mission, my passion for the family, was take me away from that dark side of being, just doing problems and start to become more an athlete and becoming completely focused on my life as a representative of Jiu-Jitsu. But with a sense of base and sense of, you know, I'm not going to let my friends down. I'm always good to be a solid, you know,

no matter if he's going, you know, if it's a good thing, if it's a wrong thing, I want to be part of and be trusted by my friends. So that's what I accomplish. Yeah, it seems like you, You ventured into that world of sort of that gang mentality. And then you say here in the book, I began to drift away from the gang when members started stealing stereos and using guns.

I knew they were on a path that would take them nowhere fast. And I was much more interested in jiu-jitsu, surfing, and girls than a life of crime. Although I was rebellious and did things that my dad didn't agree with, I never stopped competing and never stopped winning. In his eyes, that made me special. It was about this time that I began to train with my brother. brother holes. Up to this point, Aalio was my teacher. Whether he

was surfing, training, fighting, riding horses, hang gliding, or chasing girls, holes was constantly in motion. He was fast, technical, and always pushed me to train harder and achieve more. Training with holes was essentially fighting.

He reinforced what ALEO had taught me. Fuck points. Fuck judges. Win by submission or not at all. I began to improve quickly under holes and Aalio was not surprised. I wasn't stubborn and never choked under pressure. Now the expectations for me were both from holes and my dad, and they were extremely high.

How many hours a day were you training with holes at this time? At least four hours, at least two hours in the morning or in the early afternoon for classes and then at the training at night. so I was always at the school, you know. I was never been too much a good student, you know, so I get any excuse to stay away from school and stay at the academy or at the beach. But, you know, it was a good train, very fun.

How much time would you spend sparring? How much time would you spend drilling? How much time would you spend creating new stuff? Normally the class follows up with a sequence of drilling, learning some techniques, some drills, and after the free sparring. So I follow the protocols of the class, and I always going to learn something, training something, or improving some kind of technique, and also the practice afterwards. So I just follow the program of every class.

Did you find yourself in holes, especially as holes is bringing in samba and wrestling, would you have to break stuff down and kind of, adapted into jiu-jitsu? Do you remember doing that kind of thing? I remember how old showing the techniques, and we immediately, because he also have the eye for what's good for us or not. I was not learning from a wrestling teacher. I was teaching, I was learning from a guy who learns wrestling, but is a jiu-sitsu teacher and try to favor us with the best of it. So things he may learn, and he didn't like it. He not even show us. He just showed the things we are related to our. If the guy grabbed you here

So you do that. So I was just follow up his lead on what I should use from wrestling, what I should use from samba, what I should use from judo. Some techniques in judo are suicidal techniques and put you after the throw, you get caught in a bad position. So you don't want to do those techniques. So basically, I was not there to learn judo. I was there to learning an efficient way to take people down with judo, but for jiu-jitsu. So all the preparation, the techniques are kind of slightly different than being just a judo practitioner.

Yeah, I was lucky my son when he wrestled, he had a wrestling coach that started working with his wrestling team. That was a jiu-jitsu guy too. And so he could tell him, hey, do this. Like, hey, this is like a sweep. Hey, this is like a scissor sweep. He would be able to coach him to wrestle using jiu-jitsu with wrestling. Can relate much better.

Yeah, that's nice. And you're surfing all the time at this point, too. Yes, yes. You go into some pretty good details there about some of the experiences you had surfing, pushing yourself a little hard sometimes, taking some risks that maybe you shouldn't have taken in the water. Yes, because for me, surfing was not exactly just the practice of the ability to go down in the wave and carve and do the snaps or whatever. Surf for me has to do with nature, with the power of the ocean. So sometimes when the waves are too big, first thing to do is get afraid because you don't know what's going to happen if you get pound.

So dealing with this fear, knowing and strategizing the best way to go in and out of the surf, when to get the wave, the timing of the wave. So it's a lot of things which has to keep you in control of the situation, not only the ability to see. surf, but to stay calm, to paddle in the right direction, to understand nature, the wind, the rip currents. So it's a lot of things to learn and to be comfortable, and sometimes in a very uncomfortable situations. So the ocean plays a very important teacher for me because you cannot fight nature. You have to understand nature and deal with in the best way possible.

So that's – surf was a very important thing. for me in terms of reading the ocean and stay connected with the ocean and the most deepest way I could possibly do. And surf was just a bonus. I guess it's the same thing with opponents, right? Because the opponent has some really good move that they're really strong at. What's the point in fighting that move that they're really good at? Go at them from some different direction.

the perfect strategy is work your strengths on his weakness. So when you feel like you're losing the perfect aim about where his weakness is, you have to shift, not just try to force the wrong entrance, but finding another way to get the hole, you know? So that's the idea of Jiu-Jitsu, it's just capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes and be aware of if he changes, you have to flow and change again and again. No expectations. You maybe expect a choke, but it's going to arm lock is going to happen or footlock. So everything can be unpredictable if you do right.

I'm going to fast forward a little bit to this section here. By the time I was a brown belt, my matches with my brother Holes were getting closer. I was beginning to understand the limitations of his game. Holes had an excellent neon belly move that he used to set up arm locks, and he was lethal if he got your back. but he was also predictably aggressive. In our final 10 training sessions, not only did holes not submit me,

but I was getting reversals, and our fights were now even. One afternoon, we were training together by ourselves at my dad's ranch. The only thing I remember is engaging with roles, then going through the eye of the hurricane, with all the violence you would expect. When the storm passed, I had holes in a choke.

And before I even realized what was happening, he was tapping. It was a completely reactive fight. I'm not even sure if I was mounted or on his back. All I remember is that I finished him with a choke. Nobody else saw me beat holes. And when we finished training, he hugged and kissed me on the cheek and said, You did good, kid.

I'm proud of you. What I remember most about that fight was the sadness I felt afterward, as though I had made a mistake by beating him. A huge but invisible weight of responsibility had shifted from holes his shoulders to mine. In my heart, I knew that I was now a better fighter, but worse, so did he. It wasn't luck or a fluke. Holes just couldn't surprise me anymore. I also realized that I would never have to beat him again to prove it.

Were you bigger than him, or are you smaller than him? Are you about the same size? I was a little bigger at this time, maybe 5 to 10 pounds heavier. He was maybe 168 pounds, not 174. No, he was 68 kilos and I was 74 kilos. Okay, yes. You get your black belt. And that's, you know, this is always an interesting thing when you, when someone, you know, you get that edge on someone that's been beating you for your whole life.

Yes. It was a very special feeling because I have him as my idol, as my coach, as my training partner. but at the same time my goal was beating him because there's no other way I have to change this pattern I have to be the best one so my goal as a student is to be better than my teacher and when I achieved that

I felt like somehow was not exactly positive only positive the way I felt because I put him in a bad side in a bad mode or feeling he was not exactly the best anymore. He's number two. So it was a sad thing for me and was a happy thing for me, but my demonstration of love and respect was after that,

even though we go in in every tournament and I go in my weight division, he go in his way division, and we go both for open. And before that, we closed the bracket because we could not fight before the final. because we're representing the same brand. And the finals, I always gave it to him the victory, not fighting him. And even after I could be able to beat him, I still doing this for life, you know, until he pass out. I pass away because, you know, I felt like he was my, I honor his representativity on me, and so he was going to be number one and I'm number two.

For the world, I can be through the Lions before him. But in the official tournaments where he goes with me, I'm never going to be capable in my honor and my integrity to take his medal, or to fight him or to tell him I'm better than him. So he was the champion of the family until he passed away. And after he passed, I take the responsibility for myself. It's when I train with people, and I'll be training with them for a long time.

And, you know, sometimes I'll say, one day I'm going to get you. You know, they have that goal. One day I'm going to get you. And I always say, yeah, of course. And I say, listen, jiu-jitsu works. And if you put a jiu-jitsu move on me that I didn't expect or I didn't see coming, what's going to happen?

What's going to happen? I'm going to tap. That's the way it works. Jiu-suits-works. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. that's what we trained for. You have a situation here where you had a little lesson learned.

You said, I was growing so dominant in jiu-suitous competition that when I stepped on the mat and the referee said, go, the crowd would begin to chant 10, 9, 8, 7, 6. If I didn't submit my opponent in 10 seconds, they would start counting again. Even as a black belt, my only jiu-suituitary that went more than five minutes came after the judges robbed my brother Hoyler of a win against one of my cousin Carlson students.

My final match was in the open class was against Carlson's 240 pound heavyweight. I was so upset that I decided that I wanted to make him suffer. After I got him down, I mounted and just put unbearable pressure on him. I was not fighting my actual opponent. Instead, I was trying to punish Carlson for robbing Hoyler. I'm glad I wasn't that guy. Everything I was doing was fueled by ego and anger,

and I was working against myself because my emotions were negating all my precision and martial artistry. I was spinning my wheels as if I were on ice going nowhere. I was just blindly punishing him until holes yelled, eight minutes are up. I was shocked to see, I was shocked because that was too long. I snapped to my senses, got mad at myself, and easily submitted him. Afterward, I realized that I never wanted to fight like this again because I was putting emotion before reason. Although nobody else realized it at the time, I learned an important lesson that day that it was a mistake to fight emotionally because emotions blinded me. Yes.

I think the biggest experience I have in that matter was on my first fight with Zulu, which I was 19. He was 30-something years old. He had 120 fights and only four draws and 120 victories. So he was a professional valetudo guy, no-holds bar fighter. and I was just watching my dad talking in the phone with his manager trying to set up somebody to fight him and my dad said no man I'm sorry Voldemar I don't have nobody to fight this guy because you know we are and then I

catch the conversation said dad please pull me in pull me and he looked at me and said yes Voldemar I have here my son with 19 years old he may want to try and Voldemar said no master no no he's not a it's not a something to try out for a kid. The guy's tough, he's mean. And as my, as the guy tried to talk my dad out of the deal, my dad's got emotionally involved. But I think I'm gonna put him because I like to try the kid, see how goes. So, and then set up a fight for me with this Zulu guy. And I went to the, his state, the capital. And in the day of the fight,

we engage. He has this kind of typical move he does which goes and put one hand between your legs and connect you and then lift everything and throw you back on the floor, some kind of cataguma in his style. How much Zulu way? About 230.

And he's just a beast of a human. You said he had 100-something fights. Yes. He was just unorthodox. He has no sharp techniques, He was just a very intuitive animal, very flexible, very strong, very mean, you know, a very complete fighter for the time. And I was to start to dealing with him and as he go for his straight move. And this is, sorry for interrupting you, but this is your first actual fight that you're ever going to fight. My first valetudo mat, yes, officially on the ring.

And how many people are at this fight? About 10,000, five to 10,000 people. And you have the Gracie name. Yes. At stake. Yes. You're 19 years old. Yes.

How much are you weigh? About 174 kilos. So about 170, something like that? Yeah, 75. Yeah. Okay. So the stage is set. He coming for the trade move.

I kind of understood why he came. I hold his shoulders. And his head was down, so I hit him with my knee. The strongest heat, the solid heat, I could imagine possibly give to somebody. And after the heat, boom, he just lifted his head, shook his face, like spit a tooth. And come like nothing happened, and I get scared, you know, I get, wow, man. I thought I going to kill the guy, and he just shook his hand, his head. So we start back to the engagement, and he threw me out of the ring.

I went back again and get him in the back many times, hit him with the elbow. He threw himself out of the ring and we start again and again. After the first round, 10 minutes, we stopped and I was dead tired. So I was crawling to my corner and when I got the corner, I said, Dad, I quit. I cannot go anymore. I'm exhausted. Dad not even hear me. He said, oh, he's worse than you.

You're going to, now you're going to kick his ass. You're going to do it. I said, Dad, I'm serious. I start to argue with my dad trying to plea my case, you know. I said, hey, man, I'm exhausted. Cut the... And he's not even listened to me. He starts okay.

And then my brother, Holtz threw me a bucket with water and ice and my head. And then the bell rings, and I back to the action. And like my dad said, three minutes after he was sleeping. I could get his back. He was tired. I choked him out. And then I realized my worst enemy was my mind. Was the worst enemy I could ever have,

is somebody inside your brain telling you, it's time to quit, you're not going to handle. The guy is strong. So I realized, if I was trusting myself, I was done. So I could not have this enemy, this powerful enemy, hanging on my head all the time. So I decide, now I will fight to die, but I'm not going to quit anymore.

Quitting is not my word anymore. Either going to die or I'm going to win, but no quitting. So what's maybe the biggest lesson in action I have ever to have because I understand how a poor mindset can really kill you from within. And I understood that, and from that on, I was just putting all my mental, spiritual, physical, in one direction and the other direction is just only death.

No quitting, no, I think I'm done, nothing like this. So my brothers has the idea of if something happened, throw the towel because I'm not going to quit. So that's kind of making me happy because I become a warrior in a good direction. And thanks my dad for don't let me quit. Sometimes a bad show can kill you, a bad coach can kill you.

if he accept your moments, you know, so you have to transcend that kind of panicking and just back to normal and regain confidence. And after I learned that, I was completely different guy, a much more superior entity in terms of putting everything together.

All my package was together always, and I felt like I was a blessed by that. Now I was going to ask you how you changed or what did you learn from that fight from a training perspective. What did you do different? But I know that this is around this time, is this when you got way into doing yoga with Orlando Connie? Yes. I was a little before that. Okay.

Because since my 12 year old where I rolled myself on the carpet, feeling the panic. the claustrophobic feeling, was always close to me a little bit. I always been an athlete, I always run forever, training forever, and young guy. It was always being natural for me, being competitive and fight and do whatever. But in one point, if you don't have, if you don't master breathing, when you get too tired, you get confused, you get your mind fading away, it's not enough oxygen in your brain and your muscles for you to feel. feel clear mind and still getting tired and still sharp.

So I felt like it was always a lack of this, you know, this profound understanding. And one day, because my mother, he pulled me to do yoga in one point, and I did and I stopped because I didn't like it. Transcendental meditation, which make you sit and repeat a mantra for a while and start to open your mind. I also end up by sleeping almost all the time. Didn't adapt much by that, so it was not for me. And then a friend recommended me to go to Orlando Coney, which was an army pentathlon champion. He was also a yoga teacher.

And it was to start to develop some kind of exercising with movement and breathing, which can be very helpful. So I went there to this guy, and he knows my dad, he's very friendly guy. He said, okay, so goes to the class. and practice with us. So I start to go into his class with other people and start to practice. And right on the second time, he said, Hickson, you're very flexible, very strong, you're in a top high athlete. I like to teach you personally because I can improve your speed. I can improve you personally more than the class.

Said, great. So I started to do it with him a couple of times a week, only privately with him and his place which is mirrors. and one side has the wall and has the wood attached on the wall for you to hang so from here to the roof always woods kind of so you play different games

and sometimes you imitate a monkey sometimes you imitate a eagle crocodile or whatever so you play animals and moves and breeds and he starts to teach me to work the diaphragmatic breeding and that's going for a month for two months

almost three months on that. One day we are about to initiate the practice. He said, Hickson, I mean, the bell rings, the phone rings. And he said, you keep doing because I'm going to take the phone and come back. So for the first time, I was doing the exercising without a leader. I was improvising myself to doing my things and breathing and doing my things and breathing, breathing. And things going, and then eventually I opened my eyes, like wake up. And I was hanging on the top wall, on the top wood in the wall side, hanging like a monkey, dripping sweat.

And I opened my eyes and I kind of start to understand where I was. I kind of wake up. And I saw Orlando sitting, I mean, standing up on the corner. And he said to me kind of crying a little bit. said, Hickson, I don't think you need me anymore because you achieved the highest level. I said, why you say that, master? Why you say that? I said, because you hear for an hour and 15 minutes

and I call you a few times. I try to get your attention and you cannot even hear me. You're completely in a meditative state of mind, empty mind, doing your things, breathing, moving. and now you just wake up. Now you just put yourself conscious again. Before it was just reflexes and subconscious mind. And I realized I could achieve meditative state of mind, empty mind through that practice.

So through that practice which I start to do and in my academy on the beach, I start to understand breathing in a much more profound way, not only to help me mechanically, not only to help me to charge myself and rebuild my energy from the oxygenous stand-off point, but also to give me some kind of meditative state of mind, empty mind, be tranquil, be able to control my emotions. So this practice becomes a central part of my life because by breathing I could be able to not only have a better functional strength and ability to recover faster from tiredness.

But also, what is very interesting is the lungs, because the heart and the brain are the only organs who are able to give and receive information. So sometimes you can get affected by reading a bad email. You can get stressed. Immediately you get affected. Sometimes you see something which is relevant, somebody you love or somebody touch you.

you feel immediately emotionally by the heart. It's not, they can get information, and they can send information for you and say, I'm not happy. Take care of me, I'm not happy. Take care of me, I'm very exhausted. So you're tired, your heart can tell you, or your brain, oh, I'm confused, I'm stressed, I'm afraid,

I'm out of my game. So the brain and the heart are there to be controlled by the lungs. The lungs are the most fast, the most effective way for you to deal, directly with your brain and with your heart. For example, if you hear, you just read a bad email and you stress. If I keep that routine for three minutes, no stress can keep on, because I have to control, I have to integrate motion and movement, breathing and movement together.

And as I start to play on this, Nothing can be like, I cannot think about all the time to travel. I have to go to San Diego tomorrow. I have to give my daughter whatever it is. You have to refresh it because the way you breathe, you can really clean your mind. The way you breathe, you can lower your heart rates for fighting, for example. I was doing, like I get an event three hours before the event, my fight. So I go to the locker room, sleep for an hour and a half, hour 40 minutes.

By will, I just breathe in my relaxed breathing, I can sleep deeply. Wake up one hour before the fight, mourn myself up for 45 minutes, putting my heart rates to 160, 140, to really break the sweat and make sure I'm cool. And then sit for five minutes and bink my heart rate to 65 heart beats a minute. So I was deeply hot, ready to go with my heartbeat, so I see my other opponent and the other side of the ring jumping around. He's already 85, 90.

So when I engage, I engage not to make some kind of nice rhythm. I try to improve, press the gas and let's go for power. So we do everything we can do. So if I'm a struggle, you cannot rest. You have to keep up with me. So when I'm 80, you 110. When I'm 110, you 150. When I'm 150, you already trying to...

I had a heart attack. So you start to regroup and start to seeking for air. And that's time normally where mistakes happen, and I really close the deal. So breathing, become my best friend, not only to control my emotions, to keep my hard rate and the best performance to recoup. So to be controlling panic, controlling emotions,

become calm to strategize, everything coming from this capacity within to control yourself by breathing. So I felt like it was a great addition to my practice and makes a huge change in my life. This is something that I connected the dots on a few years ago. because people would ask me, I would say, listen, when things are going bad, you have to stay calm. You have to learn how to control your emotions and don't get all excited about something when things are going wrong. And people would say, well, you know, how do you do it?

And one of the things that I realized that I would do is, so in the military, you know, you have a radio with you. And when you talk on the radio, everybody can hear you. and in the military, it's very frowned upon if you get on the radio and you are emotional. If you scream, help over here. If you panic like this. So every time I ever talked on the radio, my goal was to never sound panicked, never sound emotional, no matter what was going on, sound very calm and cool. So that means whenever things were going crazy and I was about to have to get on the radio, what would I have to do? I had to breathe.

I had to take a breath. And so it's the same thing. It's just that's something that I was doing so that I could, you know, I'd be in the, oh, there's got stuff going on. Okay, I'm about talking to the radio. Hey, this is Jocko. We need about 10 more guys down to this building right now. And that, me taking control of my breath also would help me get into a controlled emotion. state where I'm not losing my mind.

Yes. That's very powerful. From Jiu-Jitsu. Yes, because, you know, the breeding system, because you stay seven days without food, you stay three days without water, five minutes without oxygen, it's already dead.

Yes. So the efficiency of the breeding system is very needed, and people take this for granted. They don't, oh, I, I'm born, I get slapped on. the butt, and you're alive and well and you can live like, if you don't train in breathing, it's like your biceps, it's like your strategies, your techniques, your jiu-jured,

if you don't train in the breathing system, you're going to work with 40% less the capabilities to really refresh yourself, hyperventilate, bringing yourself to a next level of understanding because if you get tired and you don't know how to hyperventilate, you get tired, and your mind start to phase, to fade a little bit. You start to making poor decisions. You start to get completely off your game because it's no oxygenal enough for the brain and the body. But if you know how to hyperventilate,

you can have cramps, acylatic all over. You cannot even move well, very tired, but your brain is still sharp. You can see details. You can see the girl smile at you. You can see the soup board. You can see everything you want to see and talk because your brain is still fresh.

And that's the capacity you have to learning how to hyperventilate and use the diaphragmatic breathing, which improves your life like a ton. That's awesome stuff. Going through the book, I mean, at this time, you had met Kim. Yes. She got pregnant with your first son?

Yes. At this time. and she was what some kind of a model some kind of a surfer girl she was the first sponsor surfer girl in Brazil she was doing hang gliding she was a top model for

fashion she do some modeling for soap operas and stuff so she was pretty hot girl at the time I'm going to fast forward a little bit here so you have your first son. It says the year 1982 was a bittersweet one.

I was now the father of the son I had always dreamed of, but I also suffered a devastating loss. In June, Holes and his family went for a family weekend in the mountains. Holes noticed his old hang glider was strapped to the roof of a car in front of his hotel.

It turned out that the owner was a friend of a friend. Even though my brother had promised his wife, Angela, that he would quit hang gliding after he'd had several close calls and friends had died in accidents, he made arrangements to go the next day. The following day, the conditions were very bad because there was no wind. If Holes got his mind set on something, however, there was no saying no to him. Although the owner of his old hang glider did not want to go because he thought it was too dangerous, Holes talked him into

letting him use it for just one flight. My brother ran down the ramp, launched, initially got some lift, but then began to spiral and he hit the ground 90 yards from the ramp. His friend ran into the overgrown forest and found my brother hanging upside down with his eyes wide open. Although he looked perfectly fine, his neck was broken and holes was dead.

I received the news over the phone and it took only seconds to know that my life would never be the same. Not only had I lost an idol, a teacher, and my favorite brother, but I was now officially, the family champion. Now I would have to answer all the challenges

and lead the next generation of Gracie fighters. I was now my family's last line of defense. His death affected our family dynamics dramatically. Holes had brought the two sides together because he was Carlos' son but raised by Aeleo. He acted as a bridge between the two sides of the family, but now that bridge was gone forever. Tragic.

I know my, my, My original teacher, Fabio Santos. Yes. Yeah, he was originally Holz's student as well. Yes, he was. And I was, the way he talked about Holes

was always just elevated beyond belief. Yes. Fabio has a passion for Holes, not only for the teachings and being Jiu-Jitsu guy and inspire him to do the best, but they also have a lot in common. You know, they go out together.

They're good friends. So it was devastating for him. Fabio. At this time, on top of all this, you start to have this kind of famous or infamous rivalry with Luta Leveri fighters. Yes. And had some interesting things going on there. And again, this book is so filled with so many of these details that people will be interested in. Meanwhile, you have a daughter, right? Yes. Your first daughter. And then a second daughter. Yes.

So now you're up to three kids. And again, these are all things that are detailed in the book and all kinds of interesting stories around that. You also say the Gracie clan continued to divide along bloodlines. While Horian was trying to establish our martial arts in the United States, Carlos Gracie Jr. was going in a different direction in Brazil and primarily focusing on a competitive form of jiu-jitsu that would become known as sport jiu-jitsu. And this is what a thing I appreciated.

You said, I had little interest. in the politics of jujitsu. I had three children to support. I wanted to fight Vallaitudo professionally and the only place to do that outside of Brazil was in Japan. So at this point, Horian had moved to America. Yes.

And you're looking at possibly fighting in Japan. Yes. Going with my friend to Japan to see if I can find some... I was having a letter of introduction to Antonio Nocki, which was ambassador. in Japan, very famous wrestler.

And I tried to find a pick-a-fight through him in Japan. So I was there, but I was, you know, I could not achieve my goal. And back to Brazil. And then you have Kron is born? Yes. And now things are really seem to be heating up with the Lute Levera Academy. And there's a, at one point, You guys drove over to the Lute Levera Academy.

Academy, yes. You say here, we walked in and 20 or 30 fighters stopped training and stared at us. Marco Huas walked over and greeted us. Everyone was very respectful at first. I told Huas that I heard he wanted to fight me and I was there to fight him. He said that he wanted to fight, but that he would need four months to prepare. This made me feel that he was more interested in capitalizing on the fight than proving himself, which pissed me off. I was the one who walked into that lion's den ready and willing to fight for nothing but honor.

It started to get heated and my dad stepped between us to calm things down. And then you have Hugo Duarte kind of stepped in and, you know, saying, hey, I'll fight you too. And then you said, I had a friend tell Hugo to meet me at Pepe Beach on Saturday. I got sick the week of the fight and was thinking about postponing it until my messenger called and said, It's all set. Hugo will be there on Saturday. Now I knew there was no backing out, so I started to eat well and get ready. You get to the beach.

You get to the beach. I walk up to Hugo and slapped him in the face. He took off his shirt and sandals, and we began to wrestle on our feet until I was able to drag him to the ground. Hugo used my ponytail to control my head and stood back up. He fell on top of me. Then I swept him, but my knee got buried in the sand, and Hugo escaped. We stood back up and smashed into a vendor. that we went down on the ground again with the crowd surging all around us I mounted

again Giff wrapped him and began to punch him in the face at will there was nothing he could do to stop the punches when I asked Hugo if he wanted to give up he said you'll have to kill me so I kept blasting him with punches and elbows after a few more blows to the face he changed his mind and said okay stop I let him go that that's another one you can find on YouTube that whole fight probably has a billion years Fast forward a little bit. A week later I was sleeping when my friend pulled up in front of the apartment

on his motorcycle and screamed Hickson, those motherfuckers invaded your dad's academy. Boy, that seems like a bad move. It seems like a real bad move. Yes, but it was crazy. They kind of... Because they come in for revenge. Hugo was prepared for a next fight.

He was not happy with what happened on the beach. So as they walking, maybe about three or four miles walk from a different area of the city. And some of the guys who are with him are coming from the ghettos, you know, like gangbanger. So they come in with like the face masks on the face, guns, knives, bottles. I mean, all crazy type of not only fighters, but also gangbangers, you know. So when I get into the school, when I was getting in my friend's motorcycle on the, he coming to, so I was going back to the school on his motorcycle.

And I saw about 200 people in front of the school, like half of the street already, we're full of guys, so the traffic was jammed. So I get into with my bike, with my friend's bike, inside the crowd, and immediately go up to the stairs to go to go. went to the school. And I meet Hugo coming down with my father and other guys, like about 20 Lutalevri guys, the students. So we all meet in the middle of the stairs.

So I said, Hugo, let's go down and talk and fight. So we went down to the parking lot. And I call him with his coach and another guy who fought Hoyler afterwards, Eugenio Tadeu. They went to a corner and my father, and we talked. talk. And I said to, say, hey, man, I respect you. I see you come here for a revenge and I accept that. But you brought a lot of bad guys, a lot of guys who has no integrity, no, no fighters. If somebody touched the fight before it's over, you're going to end up on the

ditch sometime. I promise you, you're going to be on the ditch very soon. No, no, it's fight for men, man, man to man, me and you, nobody going to touch the fight. It's just me. Okay, so let's go back to the crowd and let's fight. So, and then we kind of create a circle on the concrete and crowds around, me and him. And I felt like from the previous fight, he felt like he was missing the stand-up game. He was missing punch me in the face. Somebody told him maybe, oh, you should start fighting him, punch him, don't grapple him. So I felt in his stand, he was looking for to hit me hard, you know. And I play dummy, I play a kind of little unaware, and expect his attack.

When he come in with a direct, I deflected, grab his body, lift, throw him on the ground, and bang him on the concrete, mount, and start to punch him on the head. He protect his face. I put my hands on top of his head and push his head against the floor a couple of times, and he soft up a little bit. And then he said, quit, stop, stop, stop, stop. So I stopped it, stand up. He stood up and said, okay, man, I respect you.

It's all cool for us now. I said, okay, man, I respect you too. You have a potential. You know, you can become a great fighter. So we shook hands. And as we start to finish that, to terminate our problem, Hoyle started to fight the Eugenio Tadeo right there, you know. And the confusion steals, and then the police coming.

And one guy, a police guy, very. very short guy with a cigarette and mustache. I cannot forget this guy. He got a gun machine and he shoot on the roof. So the bullets touched the roof and coming down, hit somebody on the leg and stuff. And now I want to see who want to fight. The guy was very funny, man.

So then Hoyler's fight was postponed for next week. They fought again with the same guy. But my deal with Hugo was resolved. How did the fight with Hoyler girl? was a draw because we put 10 guys from Luta Livry, 10 guys from Jujitsu, and an auditorium, closed doors. And Hoyler will fight the guy to the end, right? So, and then they start to fight.

Hoyler get punched in the face and lost a tooth. And then the fight continues. Hoyler controlled the guy. He put the guy in a bad position, but not submitting. And the guy said, okay, I want to quit. If I was no better, if I was smarter, I said, okay, stop, Hoyler win. But I was pissed and was, want to see Hoyler revenge the punch. Said, okay, Hoyler, you just stop the fight.

If you want, if you don't want it, you keep fighting. Keep beating this guy. And the guy, the Formula Lutalev stood up, I said, but that's not, I push him down, like sit down here and shut up. The guy was acquitted. He was not a tough, brave guy, so he don't want to fight. He said, poor Hickson, why you did that? No, they're going to fight until the end.

So they keep fighting, and eventually, Hoyler get tired and both get tired, so they agreed to stop. We want to stop, okay, stop. So they stopped and it was a draw. I should stop the fight sooner and make Hoyler victory, but for me it was not the politics or the was just, you know, the guy just reserved some punches in the face, and Hoyle missed you get it.

So for me, it was a missing point what I want to see happen and didn't happen. Man, Hoyler. I train with Hoyler, and he helped us out at our academy here a lot. Man, what a great freaking jiu-jitsu player he is. He's a water. For sure, 100%. Yes.

It's kind of cool. You know, you talked a little bit about forgiveness already today, but you say this in the book. Looking back today on the fights between Jiu-Jitsu and Luta Libre, I see them very differently. At the time, we were all young men full of aggression and testosterone. The rivalry between our two martial arts made all of us better fighters. Steel, sharp, and steel.

We should all be grateful for the fact that we always had the ability to fight one another respectfully. Although there were black eyes, bloody noses, and broken teeth, our fights were always one-on-one, and were governed by honor and mutual respect. It was part of the natural competitive process. It was no accident that Marco Huas, Hugo Duarte, Denison Maya, Eugenie, Eugenie, Tudu, my brothers and some of my cousins and I would all go on to fight mixed martial arts professionally in America

and Japan. Definitely a good attitude to have. Yes. Competitive, but respectful against these other guys. Yes. It's a honor between fighters. It's not something we have to have integrity, have to have respect. That's part of the code, you know.

It's something I highly appreciate it. The next chapter in this book, is coming to America. You say there was little left for me to prove in Brazil at that point. America was a bigger stage and more opportunity, and I thought my kids would have a brighter future there. When I decided to move to the U.S., Kim and I had been separated for over a year and a half. I went to see her and told her I would like her to come with me and the kids and give our

relationship another chance. She agreed to my offer. I wanted to make a fresh start. While I might have been the best fighter in the Gracie family, Horian was by far the best promoter of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. He was a born salesman with a great product to sell, and nothing helped spread Jiu-Jitsu more than the portable video camera. After Horian came to America, he began challenging fighters from other styles and videotaping the bouts. Footage from these and other fights transformed what would have been urban myths into documented truth.

In 1988, Horyon put together a video called Gracie inaction, which he advertised in the back of martial arts magazines and sold by mail order. There you go. That's the beginning. Yeah, that's the beginning. That's the beginning right there. That's when the word started to get out. Yes. Because you hear it, but to see it as something totally different.

Yes. I mean, that's a brilliant marketing move. Hey, come and fight. Anybody wants to come and fight, come and fight. We're going to video it and then we're going to show it to the world. Yes. That's a brilliant move. I think so true.

He was a genius on that. I know Fabio, when I trained at Fabios, he had some of those videos that weren't even in the videos and he would show them to us like on a special Friday night we'd get to watch some some real Gracian action videos people's arms getting broken because they didn't want to tap exactly you go on here our students regularly fought in one challenge matches against other fighters and then converted them into students chuck Norris for one the actor in American martial arts icon was not only a great supporter but was also a dedicated student who eventually earned his black belt in the 19th

In 1980s, Norris took a vacation in Rio. Everywhere he went, he heard about Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the exploits of my family. Norris contacted my dad and arranged to have a private lesson. After I grappled with him, my dad told Norris to mount him. And when he did, said, okay, Chuck, punch me. The American hesitated, but my dad was in his 70s by then, but Elio kept insisting. Finally, Norris drew back his arm to punch, but before he could throw one, the old man had choked him out. Chuck left Brazil impressed by the Gracie family and invited us to come to America and hold a seminar for his students.

Fast forward a little bit. Horri-on and the actor had a disagreement over money. This is after one of those seminars. Chuck Norris hired our cousins, the Machado brothers, Carlos Higgin, Hajer, Jean-Jacques, and John to teach him. The machadoes came from a more stable upper-middle-class background than we did. Their father was a judge and they did not grow up in Rio. Not only were they much more reasonable than Horon, they were great jiu-jitsu fighters and teaching. in their own right. My cousin Jean-Jacques Machado is an inspiring person who went on to become one of the greatest

Jiu-jitsu teachers in America. Born with only a thumb and part of a pinky on one of his hands, Jean-Jacques learned how to adapt and improvise better than anyone I had ever seen. His jiu-jitsu is both intensely personal and creative. So you had the Machado brothers now teaching Chuck Norris. Yes. But you, there's a, there's a video of you going against Chuck Norris, isn't there? It's a little mistake on that video. That video in the the seminar, he's a very strong, tall, blonde guy, who was a struck notice, good student, tough fighter.

It was not Chuck at that time. Got it. I spar with Chuck. I teach him a few times, and I spar with him a few times. So he knows our power, but the training was not with him at the time. When you showed up in America, you didn't even speak, you didn't speak any English, did you? No. No.

Where'd Horian learn to speak English? He come, prior to that, he come in a few times to America in the 70s and stuff. So he loved here, the culture, and he started to learning and work in different jobs and try to make Hollywood work as an actor, as a stuntman. So he was, and he likes to speak the language. So he learned very quickly and very effectively. Fast forward a little bit. Even though Aalio wanted Horian to lead the Gracies in America, it was easier said than done.

There were just too many of us moving in different directions and Horian's efforts to control the clan backfired. After he threatened to sue members of the Gracie family whom he had grown up with on the mats for using their own Gracie last name, many family members surrendered. Gracie Jiu Jitsu got renamed Brazilian Jiu Jiu Jitsu. believe that if my brother had allowed everyone to use our family name, our martial art would still be called Gracie Jiu-Jitsu today, and perhaps it'd be even bigger than it is. So I wanted to mention that part in the book, because I think Echo Charles and I get asked at least 10 times a week. You know, should I train Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? What's the difference between the two? Is there a difference between the two? And I think

you summed it up right there pretty well. I think we start doing Jiu-Jitsu. in the protocol where you have to learn self-defense. You don't have, you're not required to use color belts, no color belts at that time. So a student can be 10 years a student and still white belt, and the instructor will be forever a dark blue belt. So that's what the reference.

And then in 65, my father started to create the federation because the demand is going to big a lot of people try to train. So he started to creating a rules for a federation for the sports jiu-jitsu. And that's the difference between the color belts. Because if you're 10 years white belt, you're going to be better than a six-month white belt. And if it's not fair for them to compete.

So let's make a blue belt, purple belt, to create the reference not only for practice, but for competition. Because a new warrior is not going to be a white. old waters, so let's make different rankings. And that's what the process for colors, belts, was the evaluation of levels and stuff. So with this, Jiu-Jitsu becomes also a sport Jiu-Jitsu

has points, mount position, throw, and has the self-defense aspect which lead you to a more open-mind situation. If somebody coming with a knife, if two against one, if the guy coming to punch me, there's no punches in Jujid. So you start to open your mind to possibilities for unpredictable situations

against a knife, against a punch, fight with glove, fight with... So you start to become a more open mind. So if they come into America, especially after Hoy's kick ass on the UFC, people start to say, wow, what this kid did with the Gie? So people want to say,

to learn Jiu-Jitsu, but they also want to compete in Jiu-Jitsu. And competition becomes bigger than the actual platform for learning Jiu-Jitsu with self-defense, the protocols, the technical protocols for spending technically the Jiu-Jitsu are not there. It's just Brazilian coming with experience of fighters, to experience how to fight, and they come here in display and fight. So in many Gracie Jiu-Jitsu academies or Brazzi Jiu-Zitsu academies or Brazzi Brazilian Jujitsu Academies, people teach how to pass a guard, people teach how to choke or to go a footlock, but they don't teach gun retention, arrestment control, knife attacks,

and fighting without gloves, fight striking. So because that lack of information, competition Jiu-Jitsu becomes much bigger than the self-defense Jiu-Jitsu. And now, anyone can do Brazilian Jiu-Jiu-Jitsu. Brazilian jiu-jitsu can fight, can pass guard, can do sweeps. But not anyone knows the total gracey jiu-jitsu, which is self-defense and more elaborate techniques for self-defense, like the law enforcement programs or situations that require more techniques.

So that's basically, today is a big difference. When people refer as gracey jiu-zitsu, they go more towards the traditional aspect of the art And when they're talking about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, they really recognize as a competition. But they are the same with lack of information, you know, in both sides. Because sometimes now you see self-defense academies who have no fighting skills. They're more like self-defense.

And the other academies, they have fighting skills, but they have zero self-defense. So it's important a movement to bring those children. together for the perfect academy become a center of knowledge and practice for competition, not only competition or not only self-defense. Yeah, I don't know if this is positive or negative, but I just refer to all of this as Jiu-Jitsu now. Yes. I don't even say Brazilian.

I don't say Gracie, but it's just to me, Jiu-Jitsu is all of it. I agree. And that's not just me, I should say. That's when I talk to everybody in the Jiu-Jitsu community, they just say Jiu-Jitsu. So you used to have to say, well, it's different. This is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or this is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu because you had Japanese Jiu-Jitsu and all these other things. Now Jiu-Jitsu is what your dad made. Yeah, my federation is Jiu-GGZUG Global Federation.

There's no BGGGG or no self-devil. On the race you. BJG is a Jiu-Jitsu. J-Jitsu. Yeah. Do you think that some of the confusion also comes from, because you have like Gracie Academy, you have Gracie Bajee Baug. You have Gracie Humaita.

And there's so many, like, officially named academies and places that have Gracie in it. Yes. And your question is, if I feel what? Do you think that that adds to the confusion, you know, for people? So we end up, how Jocko said, we end up eventually just calling it Jiu-Jitsu. Do you think that that added to the, like, the confusion of the separation? Yeah. Right now, the situation becomes very.

very complex because the Brazilian Jiu Jiu Jitsu states for tournaments and competition the Gracie Jiu Jiu Jitsu is more traditional and Jiu Jiu Jitsu embraces everything I believe talking about Jiu Jitsu is the perfect way now to deal with the situation because it's just Jiu Jitsu

and how you practice will make the determination if you're going to be a MMA fighter if you're going to be a police officer, if you're going to be just a practitioner or if you want to compete. So all this gets into the jujitsu category, which I believe now is from here to the future, becomes jujitsu.

Do you find, or do you know anything about, like, Gracie Baha comes off as, like, one that they focus heavy on competition. Yes. Is that, do you think that that's the case? Yes, because Carlos Gracie Jr., which is the president of the IBJ, DJF felt like more he feeds the tournaments with students, better for him as a profit,

better for him as a grow in the politics of Jiu-Jitsu. So he's emphasizing the competition element and creates a team around that, which is very strong, Gracie Barra. And other teams like Alliance or CheckMet or or. or other teams, they're all coming in that same pattern. So it's very good for the sport. Yeah, so is there options, because that's a lot of time the question, right, where it's like, oh, I don't know what to choose and why and all this,

they just kind of want to start. But then they hear, like, oh, some academies focused on sport jiu-jitsu, which might not be aligned with my interest. Yes. I feel like for every jiu-jitsu practitioner today who is blue belt

maybe 100 give up before get the blue belt at least if you put in a perspective with jiu-jitsu putting yourself every time you go to the academy you have to somehow

prove yourself show yourself is like a tough enough, resilient enough, capable to create strategy. So it's a challenge there. The average Jiu-Jitsu Academy, for every 10 students who come in to try the Jiu-Jitsu Road, eight will live in less than six months. Because somehow it's not only show you the techniques. I show you the techniques you love it.

And then you repeat, you love the class. At the end of the class, say, okay, echo, lay down. John, mount. John, you try to keep your position. Echo, try to escape. At this point, we unleash the wild. Yes, sir. The wild white belts.

Yes. And then that confrontation can lead to a little brute movement, a little violence. Or, you know, sometimes the guy is too young, too aggressive. So you're going to deal with a beast, which you recognize as your worst nightmare. And you have to basically be comfortable or say, okay, the guy kick my ass today. I'm going to go back there tomorrow, going to fight again. So you have to have within your capacity to be resilient, to be tough, to be competitive. So when you have this, no matter the road, the bumpy road ahead of you, you're going to get from Jiu-Zitsu everything he can give you.

because you have the balls, you have the courage to go there and put yourself there to learn. Some days you're going to get hurt, some days you're going to hurt somebody, but that's part of the practice. For 90% of the people, they don't have, they get short on that capacity. So they experience Jiu-Jitsu, and they say,

oh, man, I love Jiu-Jitsu, but it's not for me. I work in computers, I'm an artist, you know. You guys are tough, you can do, but for me, I'm very gentle. I am a doctor. So they cannot involve in that practice because in one point, it's not the practice, is what they have in their hearts, you know, is their courage, is their resilience, as their capacity to handle pain, is competitive.

So the elements are lacking, if you lack of those elements, you basically don't find yourself feeding in any academy of jiu-jitsu, because you have to roll. Yes, sir. My idea of the future for Jujitsu is to create a level in Jiu Jiu Jitsu where you experiment. The essential sensitivities is a sensorial Jiu Jiu Jitsu. You start to feeling the leverage, you start to feeling the angles, you start to feel your invisible power, you start to feel your connection, your reflexes, your defenses.

For the sake of knowledge, for the sake of being proved, you have a chance. But at least for the first year of practice, you should not have an opponent. You should have only training partners. This way, you're going to have a guy who's going to experiment Jiu-Jitsu, going to love the techniques, going to understand their strategy, and he's going to lost weight, he's going to get feet, he's going to get, you know, confident on his knowledge. But not to prove all the time, not to be able to go and be a fighter or a competitor. This way, with the Jujitsu, we can help executives, you can help anyone in the full circle.

But if the Jujitsu is traditional competition, is drive you to be an athlete, sometimes you fall short because you don't want to be an athlete. So the idea of give you Jujitsu is something I never ever find somebody who don't like Jujitsu. Jiu-s. Depends how you be introduced. Depends how your practice is. So you can appeal for the good kid, for the tough kid, for the bully, for the shy one. They all love Jiu-Jitsu if I don't put for the shy one the pressure for him to quit.

So he's going to love to roll, he's going to love to move, he's going to love to do. For the bully, I'm going to give him not only the knowledge of Jiu-Jitsu, but I'm going to put him to compete for him to start to respect others. and be more mellow in the attitude. So I can help the bully, I can help the shy one, I can have the soft one, the tough. They all can learn, but in a different patterns. So what I try to accomplish and still in my time, in my lifetime, is be able to create a program

who involves anyone in the family without the idea of proof your... yourself, prove you capable. Because when you put that kind of challenge, a lot of people are not going to enjoy the capacity in the development of their selves. I was thinking about it from a surfing perspective because I know Echo's planning to start surfing. If I said, okay, welcome to surfing Echo and we took them up to Mavericks in Half Moon Bay

with 20 foot day. Or pipeline. Yeah, or pipeline. But Maverick's even better, though, because it's. whatever, 52 degree water, it's freezing cold, it's foggy, it's dark, and there's sharks. You aren't even going to go out.

You aren't even going to paddle out. Well, you're not even going to paddle out. No, sir, probably won't. So that's like going to the first day of Jiu-Jitsu and there's a 220 pound, 21-year-old blue belt that's getting ready to crush the person that just showed up that wants

to learn. Yeah, in some academies, you're going to have a bad experience in the first day. And the other academies, is you've been protected first month or the second month. So you say, okay, now it's time for you to one hour class, 45 minutes, okay, now you guys. Let's keep rolling, guys. You guys can roll. So you protect somebody from rolling for one or two months.

But in one point, you have to allow him to roll. And that drop off will start from that point. When you start to understand yourself as having to roll all the time. And that sometimes can be completely depressive for many. So taking that challenge, taking that compromise to compete and allow yourself to go there to enjoy yourself is the key for bringing more people to the benefits of Jiu-Jitsu because I see like Jiu-Jitsu can help you

in a huge spectrum not only help you on the mat but outside of the mat. So sometimes you practice Jiu-Jitsu, you become calmer, you become better father, that are police officer, it's just for the practice, you know. So it's a very important element of self-confidence, build self-esteem and so on. So it's something we all can do regardless

your desire to compete or to really fight. Well, I'm glad it's going where it's going because it seems to keep growing, for sure. Yes. You also, you know, here you mentioned that it not only is trying to control all this stuff, but he's also got guys like Henzo coming in, who's, you know, a great teacher. You said, you said, Henzo became a father figure to his younger brothers, Halif and

Hyan into many others. By the time he arrived in America, he was already leading many of the younger graces and other friends who lacked direction. Henzo was a born fighter who, rather than getting scared in danger situations, got focused. Henzo would go on to be one of the most successful jiu-titsu teachers in America. Meanwhile, you had, you say the West L.A. Karate School rented me their school on Pico Boulevard in an industrial section of Los Angeles. It was a traditional Japanese karate school complete with raised wooden platform and oil painting of an old Japanese karate master.

Hot in the summer and cold in the winter. My school had no sign, no parking, no windows, no showers, and it was almost impossible to find. I can vouch for that. But since I was the family champion in California was buzzing about Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, it did not take long for dangerous men from all over the world to find this rundown karate dojo tucked away in an alley next to an auto body shop.

Most of my first generation of students were aspiring professional fighters, lifelong martial artists from other styles, surfers or professional men of action who use physical force in their daily occupations, soldiers, cops, prison guards, and bouncers. That's what I mean by dangerous. Some wanted to learn while I'm,

Others just wanted to test their skills against us, but in the end, almost all became dedicated Gracie Jiu-Jitsu students. My Pico Academy was a neutral environment where you had to leave your preconceptions and prejudices in the locker room. I didn't allow it onto the mats. You certainly did not. I thought this was interesting because you say this about coming to America. When we first came to the U.S.

Kim and I were working our hours. passes off just to get by while life on the mat was always the same life off the mat was more difficult because America was so different from Brazil Like the United States Brazil had been a colony But it was the it was one where the Europeans at first went primarily to fill their boats with golden emeralds and go home In contrast America had been a much more idealistic had a much more idealistic constitution and grew into a more orderly society literally People here did things I'd never seen before they stood in line stopped for traffic lights and mostly obeyed the laws. These may seem like obvious requirements for a workable society,

but for me it was a strange new world. My transition to living in American society was not always so smooth. You got some good stories about some of the things you went through there. And it's the same for your kids. And you say this, moving was probably hardest for Hoxon. That's your oldest son. In a few short months, he had gone from being the Prince of Rio to being just another skinny, Hispanic-looking kid in California public school who didn't speak English. And his being physically small compared to most of the American kids made him insecure.

All the ESL classes in the world can't help that. One morning he came out of his room to go to school with football shoulder pads under his shirt and insisted on wearing them to school. I said no, of course, but I saw right into the source of his pain. In an effort to become a leader, Hawkson tried to overcompensate with aggression. become extremely reckless in order to prove himself. He would accept any challenge and fight anyone. When I sent him to elementary school in Torrance, he wanted to fight every kid there. At least once a month, the principal would call me, screaming,

Hoxon fought six kids today. He doesn't understand the rules of basketball and won't let the other kids have the ball. Another time, Hoxon came home with a backpack full of candy. He told me some bullshit story about how he found it, but I knew he'd stolen it. Even my punishing him did little to correct his behavior. I've been a fighter in my entire life, so I understand putting myself at risk, but Hoxen was always putting himself at risk in situations that were not rational or intelligent. This trait had always been with him. He was very young, when he was very young, Hawkson once said to his sister, I'm either going to be rich, in prison, or dead.

Can you imagine a kid saying that? He was drawn like a magnet to trouble that he could easily, could have avoided. This imbalance concerned me because it took Hoxon out of a gun. zone of comfort and put him constantly on the edge. I was not just watching another aggressive Gracie growing up. I was watching someone with an unbalanced mental approach to life. When Kim tried to rein him in, he became rebellious and defiant toward her. This caused strife between Kim and me because she did not want her kids to be Gracie brawlers. She'd hoped that the move to America would put them on a different track, but it was too late. Hoxton was already on a self-guided mission

to be the greatest Gracie of his generation. Reckless, yes, but forever a fighter. Then we get to early 1993. Horian's dream of bringing valetudo fighting to America to showcase Jiu-Jitsu was about to come true. He asked me to meet with him and his student, Hollywood director John Milius, and told me that they had backers for the ultimate fighting championships, America's first valet-tudo event. Finally, an opportunity for me to make a name for myself in America. This was the opportunity that I've moved to the United States for, and now it was a reality.

when Horian told me that he wanted our younger brother Hoist to fight in the first tournament and keep me as a backup in case he lost I was disappointed so there you go the first UFC yes you must have thought that you were going to be the the guy I was sure

about that you know I was sure I was the one who represents the family and then Horon come with the news Hoyce will do because if he lost you come up and back it up and stuff I felt a little trick was a good situation for Hordian, keep things under control. But I took as it is and helped Hoyce to fight.

I got to backtrack a little bit. You were going, at this time you were teaching up at the, before you had your studio, you were teaching in the Torrance garage, right? I start, I come here, rent a house, start teaching my garage under Hordons students. He sent me a list of students, so I already full schedule. for teachings, privates, and the garage. And then we left the garage and opened the first academy,

Torrance Academy. And I was keeping teaching private lessons, group lessons, helping the whole system of the academy. There were some seals that came up and trained with you during that time. Yes. And there was, well, one of them was an old Vietnam seal, a little guy.

and I remember him telling me, he goes, oh, you got to try these Gracie guys. And then another one was a wrestler, a college wrestler, a champion wrestler in America, and a big guy, who's a good friend of mine.

And apparently you two used to just go at it. Yes, definitely. Yeah, I have a very deep respect about the Seals, you know, because, And I also met Steve Watkins, which was also a sergeant at the Colorado Bay, I guess, because he was selecting people. He was trainer for the SEAL teams to make the selection like the Hell Week and stuff. So I know a little bit about the situations they go through to get graduated as SEAL.

And I also experienced the practice with them, which... emphasizes a lot because when you get tired, you start to get confused, you start to get doubts, you start to make poor decisions. Seals, they get exhausted and they obey exactly what they hear. So they don't blink or they don't ask or they don't have doubts. They just dare to move forward on the mission. So if the missions keep holding the knee, they will hold the knee until they pass out. So our training with them Sometimes are done at the academy Sometimes are in different places

Sometimes are on the carpet And they train on the carpet And half hour into the training They're all bleeding, blisters and They don't even notice And two, three hours Rest for an hour, another two, three hours And they go forever

And if you stop the training, they engage, they fighting And you say, okay, stop, you jump on the window they will stop and jump in the window. They dare to obey what they... So I'm very impressed with their focus, their capacity to... to completely fearless, completely no doubts.

They believe they sure what they have to. So it's a very, very special people, you know. And I also hear from my student who are a trainer there. In some tests, for example, you have to go diving in a 200-yard pool and they say, okay, you go to the other corner. If you don't make it, don't show up. Don't put your head up.

So whatever you do, get the other hand or stay under the water. And 90% the guys, they try to go for air when they lose the air because there's no chance for you to make the other side. So what they want is make you pass out under the water, constantly say, okay, I'm going to die here, but I'm not going to put my head out of the water. And when they pass out, they take you off, they survive you, and that's all cool. But your mindset is there to accept death, to go into death, and no problem.

Don't put your head out. So this kind of makes one guy out of a thousand, a guy who's able to accomplish. So Navy SEALs are guys completely prepared to do what they're supposed to do. They have no mind problems. They focus. It's admirable how they're not. they can control their own emotions and how they can stay under pressure and be comfortable and do whatever they have to do, you know?

No matter. If I'm going that direction with a gun machine, my partner looking backwards, another gun machine looking at my back. So if I start shooting here, he cannot even turn the head. He has to accept, I'm taking care of my side. So the loyalty, the surrendering, the trust, the courage is to the high ceiling, you know, is just off the roof, so much personal qualities, you know.

It's impossible to not make a guy, like a guy like that can be a champion, can be anything because he control his mind in a very special way. The first guy that I trained Jiu-Jitsu with was a guy named Steve Bailey, and he was probably a mid-level white belt when I met him.

And he was an old, I thought he was another guy. he was 100 years old. He was probably about 40 or something like that. But he had trained with you guys. Yes, and I was in his house also. Yeah, down here in San Diego. Yes.

And we showed up on deployment over in Guam, and he came and said, who here wants to learn how to fight? Now, I was a brand new guy. I was like, hey, I want to learn how to fight. And I also thought to myself, maybe I can teach the old man a little something, you know, because I'm pretty badass myself. I just graduated from seal training. I'm pretty tough.

And there's probably five of us that showed up. Jeff Higgs is another one. And Jeff Higgs is a trained with Fabio-Santos or Fabio-Santos Black Belt. And so we showed up. And again, I'm thinking, what, what's this old man got for me? And he just, like I said, he was probably a white belt at the time. But, you know, he lined us up and just tapped us all out and then tapped us all out again and then tapped us all out again.

And that was my introduction to Jiu-Jitsu. Yes. And then you got hook. Yeah, totally. Totally hooked, man. Totally hooked. I didn't want to skip over those early days because those are pretty legendary days inside the seal teams. And it's so interesting because nobody knew anything.

I mean, even from that, from what Steve Bailey taught me, I probably got in, I don't know, how many skirmishes, like fights, but platoon fights, you know, where you're fighting your friend, where you're not going to beat the shit out of them, but you're going to definitely figure out what's up, right? I got into all kinds of those things with my friends. and just from what Steve Bailey taught me, like, hey, this is the elbow escape, this is the mount, this is the rear naked choke. I think I actually just knew the Americana, the rear naked choke and like the arm lock, maybe what guard was a little bit, a little bit of mount. That was like enough. Back in those days, man, you were like king of the world. King of the world. Yes, in the blindsland who has one eye is the king, right?

And that's kind of going back to the book here. That's kind of how it was for the first UFC. Oh, yes. It was hoist fighting against people that had no comprehension of Jiu-Jitsu, really. Yeah, they coming from different styles. It was a war of styles, you know, kickboxers, sumo wrestlers, and wrestlers. But the wrestlers, they have no submission, they have no striking, they are not good completely. Today, you see wrestlers with great striking skills,

great guard defenses and things. You see judo guys with striking skills. You see striker guys with jiu-jitsu skills and rest. So it's a mix. But before, people represent their own styles, you know, and then becomes a huge difference, you know. If you don't know Jiu-Jitsu, you're dead on the woods. You're dead.

You say here, so this is the first UFC, after Hoyt's beat the boxer without getting hit, then made Ken Shamrock the fighter who posed the biggest threat to him tapping less than a minute. His confidence surfaced in the final hoist faced a tall dead-eyed Dutch kickboxer named Gerard Gerard Gar-Guardo and stuck the same winning formula when Hoyce took him down to the ground and was just about to choke him. Gordo bit Hoyce's ear after the referee, after he freed his ear, Hoyce choked him.

And when he tapped, Hoyce kept choking him and not stop until the referee pried him off Gordon. I'll tell you what was interesting. I was watching this fight the other day between between. Hoyce and Ken Chamrock and Ken Shamrock went to do a footlock or a heel hook. Yeah. No hesitation whatsoever. Hoyce totally saw it. Disarmed.

Like did the perfect defense to it, got up on top, got the, got the position. And so people will be like, oh, you know, foot locks are new, right? No, he's being around, yeah. Yeah, they've been around because Hoyce defended that like it was nothing. Yes. Which is pretty impressive, I think, for 1993. Yes. after hoist won the tournament in less than five minutes of total fighting time

Americans were stunned and amazed by the power and efficiency of gracie jiu jitsu overnight hoist gracie became the biggest name in martial arts and gracie jihitsu exploded in popularity horian thought it was hard to control the graces but soon america would be flooded with non-family members who represented the good the bad and the ugly of my family's martial art during the 1990s an unusual thing happened to Brazilians when they flew to the u.s Some of their belts magically turned from blue to brown, or even worse, from purple to black. And as you just said, in the line of the blind, a one-eyed man is king. That was a...

I mean, the first UFCs were like miraculous for martial arts. Yeah, I think it was like an open eye. Everybody started to feel something. They never felt before. It was like this mix, this integration of... fights and people fight differently and engage and who win. So they start to make different conclusions about what they see on the movies, you know, like Bruce Lee's and stuff.

So they can kick, fight 40 people and nothing happened. And they start to feel like a little different. The reality is a little different for the striker than supposed to be. And they start to feel like how impossible is to not engage and not have this kind of tight. And once it's tight, it's not easy to separate and risk a mess if the referee is not there to create this space. So then the value of the grappling becomes,

you know, people start to get aware of how dangerous a grappler is when he's just around your neck, you know. And they start to create better techniques and it's a different open mind for everybody. Yeah, it's weird because if you look at a striker and a grappler and you don't know anything, the striker kind of appears to be more dangerous. Yes.

Because they're hitting, and especially in the movies, you hit them and they fall down. And it doesn't, whereas a grappler's like grabbing hold of me. I mean, my wife grabs me. That can't be a problem, right? Yes. But the difference is major. Oh, yeah. So now you start looking to, you start looking to fight, and you're going to end up in Japan.

And you say, unlike the UFC, the Japan opened had gloves and 20 minute rounds. Because it was an eight-man tournament, the winner would have to fight three ballots. in one night. I would have to keep an open mind. I couldn't go in with a strategy or plan because I didn't know who I'd be who'd be fighting me My solutions to problems had to be reflexive and responsive to me my fights were solemn celebrations and I wanted my family friends and students to There to witness the culmination of all the training all the sacrifice and all the hard work On the morning of the Japan valet Tudot open I got to the stadium early and took a long nap in the locker room when I woke up I thank God for life and then acknowledge that it was a perfect deal to die because of my life's mission was complete. I was representing my art and my family in the ring.

My opponent would have to knock me out or kill me to win, for I was never going to tap. This was not a sport to me. It was my sacred honor. And again, I mean, people have to buy the book to read through the details that you give, what it was like before the fight, what you were going through. And you detail some of the fights themselves. And it's fascinating to hear about them from your perspective. That's why people have to buy the book.

But fast forward a little bit, and three short bouts I had won the Japan open. I bowed the crowd on the four sides of the ring, but did not smile. The samurai did not celebrate victories, and neither would I. Why celebrate a victory? Your next fight might be your last. Battles are not parties. Win or lose. Fights are sacred to me.

So this is an interesting thing that unfolds here. You say, when I got back to L.A., I learned that one of Japan's most famous pro wrestlers, no Buhiko Takata had challenged me. A few weeks after we returned, my representative in Japan called me to tell me that Takata was telling the press that I had not responded to him because I was afraid to fight.

And then a week later, Takata's protege, Yogi Anjo, one of the villains of Japanese pro wrestling, had a press conference to announce that he was traveling to Los Angeles to fight me to the death. When I heard Andrew had said this, I told him to call me when he got into town. I wasn't going to stress out

about it. If Anjo came to fight, then we'd fight. The Japanese promoters and reporters were always creating dramas and fanning the flames. These kind of theatrics were the story of my life by then. I never lost sleep over the barking dogs. And then December 7th comes. 1994. What happens? Yes, I was, I mean, tranquil as always at my house and then my instructor called me from the academy, said Hickson, has a couple here, Japanese couple, who wants to talk to you. Immediately, I imagine, could be the fighter.

Said, okay, I'll be right there. As I'm going in the car, I was taping my hand a little bit to give me a little support for the bones and setting up the camera, my son will film. So he was with me in the car. So when I arrived in my school, which was in the alley, deep alley,

first thing I saw was a van full of Japanese photographers, cameras and stuff. So I was getting in. I saw the van open doors with Japanese inside. So I get through, getting to my academy, and has this tall guy who was the president of the UFO,

the U.S. the wrestling association in Japan. Oh, Mr. Grayson, nice to meet you. I like, I come here to talk to you. I said, yes. You said you, I like to invite you for a fight in Japan. I said, man, I told you already. I'm not going to fight in the UFO because you guys are not legit,

no matter if I win or lose in your arena, can be always fixed. So I have no intention to fight in your arena. Yeah, but you also said. said, Mr. Gracie, you're willing to fight for your honor for free? He said, yes, that's what I'm here for. I thought you're going to fight me, but I saw you're not here for fight. Yeah, but the fighter is here, is in the backyard. He's in the outside. He can come.

So, okay, so call him. And as I saw the guy go out to pick up the fighter, I said for a student who was in there, I said, hey, man, you stay in the door, let the guy come back, let the fighter come in, but don't let the press come in. So keep the press outside. Okay, so the guy, the president, come in, the Anjou come in, the door was locked. And I said, Louise, get on a waiver, please, and give for Mr. Anjo sign. Because the waiver is always a good, secure if you get hurt or something.

It's a waiver, right? Everybody signs a waiver here. And then Anjo looked at the waiver with an ugly face and talk with Japanese with the guy. And the guy said to me, Mr. Grace, You mean if you don't sign the waiver you're not going to fight? Immediately I felt like it was a tricky question because if I say no, he has to sign. He said, okay, let's leave then. So he will leave and he will talk whatever he says.

Oh, he quit. I was here. Said, no, no, forget the paper. Throw this paper out. You want to fight without the paper. Just you welcome. Let's fight without the paper. Forget the paper. And then he jumped in the ring.

we start to base each other. How big is Andrew? It's about 200 pounds. My height, a little stocky, solid. What did you think when you looked at his eyes? Did he look like he was surprised that you accepted this? No, I felt like he was playing a villain in wrestling.

So he has the ugly face, the attitude. He don't flake, he don't blink, he don't show emotions. He's just like ready to. to go, you know. I don't know if he was pretending or if he was for sure, but he was ready to go. And all these reporters, none of them came in. No, I don't come in. I didn't let nobody come in because I don't know what's going to happen. I don't like somebody which is not my friend to record everything. But your son recorded it.

Yes, so the camera was on. So, and then the fight starts, I felt like he wants to punch me. I can feel the difference in the stands and the waist when you're looking for a position for a punch, when you're grappling, when you're striped, when you want to kick. So depending your approach, I can see if you're more like as a kicker, if you want to puncher, if you want to grappling. And I felt like he wants to have your hands on my face, you know. He wants to just solid punch.

And I did the same thing. I play a little dummy. When he came with the right, I deflected, grab him under the waist, throw him on the floor. we fall off the mat on this hardwood. And he got caught like in a little fancy, so he got caught in a bad position. And I started to punch him, punch, and he was turned back.

He turned back to me, and I was thinking, if I put him to sleep, he can wake up and tell whatever he want to say. So it has to be bigger than that, has to be a punishment. his face has to show. So I was hitting him backwards on his back

until he turned face me again. So I didn't shock him. I wait for him to turn face me again and then I keep punching and I broke his nose, a lot of blood. And then he turned back again and I put him to sleep. Finally I could make the thing

and make it happen. So I put him to sleep and he was passing out facing down on the mat. So when he was out, I tell the guys, okay, now the press can come. So when the press coming to the place, start to picture everything,

he was already standing up, and the guy tried to cover his face with his hugging him, like protecting his face from the photographers. And then Kim said, so show his face. So the guy move out, and the guy's taking pictures off, the guy all bloody. and they left.

Two days later, Anjo come back to my school with a gift with a samurai helmet and said, was dishonorable why he did, was a lack of respect, but he's apologizing, he wants to say he has no problems, he was very, very, you know, straightforward, give me the gift and said he'd respect me and left. And then one week after,

he states in Japan he was jumped in the fight they jump me so it's like a villain he talked one face with me other face in Japan and at this point

I have a tape fortunately so my guy coming to here to US I give the tape to him he was able to show the tape to the press in Japan no make no copies and bring back to me I said no make no

no copies messages so he showed it for the press And so my name in Japan was even bigger because everything Andrew said was a lie and was proved wrong. So that's happened. And then eventually, I fought one more time in Japan.

And then after I fought Noburiqu Takada, which was the boss of that association. And a big event in Tokyo Dome, 70,000 people sold out the arena was a huge event. That was against Takata, who was, He was like Yogi's master, right? Yeah, he was the number one of the wrestling.

I think O'Angelo was better than Takada as a fighter. He came in with a better fighting background. But he was the villain. He always never going to be the number one, you know? Takada has a better pretty look. He has more like his appeals more for the audience. So he was the good guy who always win in the end. In the fixed fight, you can arrange that with no problems.

man that video is still not released no only for friends so you're gonna be one for sure gonna see a copy yeah I've been waiting to see that for a long time yeah

meanwhile there's still life going on outside of fighting so you got all this stuff going on and I pulled this one out it says one day a policeman who knew me called and said I have hawks in here we caught him trying to steal

from a store. You need to come down. When I arrived, my son was sitting on the curb. Hickson, I'm not going to take him in, the cop said, but talk to him. He could have gotten into some serious trouble. When I lectured Hoxton on the drive home about how it was wrong to steal and that he didn't need to do it in order to prove his worth, he remained silent and stared at his feet. When we got home, I said, go to the garage.

I'm not finished talking to you. He looked me dead in the eyes and groaned, Dad, can't you just hit me? I'd rather you do that than more talking. We don't need to talk anymore. Just give me my punishment. I thought, fuck, what am I going to do to make him fear the consequences of his actions? That was when I realized I was losing control of my son. Hoxson reminded me of my brother Holes in that they both possessed psychologies that made me uncomfortable.

But while this worried me, I figured that it was a phase he would pass through as I had. When I returned to Japan in 1995, a few weeks before the tournament, I went to Yuri Nakamura's mountain cabin. My pre-fright routine was the same. And again, this is all stuff that you detail. You talk about, you know, what you're thinking about. Psychologically is so interesting to read the book and get that side of the fight. That's why people got to get the book. You have these fights that you talk about.

You hurt your neck a little bit. Then you submit a couple guys. You end up in that classic fight against Yuki Nakai. Yes. Who had had his eye gouged in his first fight against Gordo. Yes. Yes. And he ended up becoming blind in that eye because of that eye gouging.

Yes. And he was, he's also, Yucanthai is a small little guy. Yes, he's a brave warrior. For sure. Have a lot of respect for the guy. But you went out and it's clear when you watched that fight. I remember watching it actually that you went out and basically didn't do any further damage to the guy. Yes.

My friends, my guys in the practice and the locker room, they said, you have to kill him, punch him, start to damage him, whatever you have a chance. I said, no, man, I'm not going to do anything. I'm a technician than him. I'm bigger than him. I don't have to be hurt to him. He's already hurt. I mean, why are going to be just mean? I'm going to win him with techniques. So I went to the ring, commit to do my thing and prove myself, I can win without the brutality, without the fear, the aggressiveness, which are no need for that. So I was calmly putting him in uncomfortable situations until you get the choke. And this plays a very important role because I always admire Japan. I always felt like I leave my

personal Bushido, which is my moral code, my code of warrior. And I never knew details about Japan, very details. But I know, I after that the fact I use white, it represents a lot for them because the samurai dress white before the armor, you know, in terms of surrendering. It's a beautiful war color, the white. I didn't know that. The fact I'm not celebrating fights is the same thing than samurai. Samurai are not going to be partying because he kills somebody. Next day can be him.

So the fighting is just a way to go. weight of life which cannot be celebrated at like a party or a suit. So the Japanese also noticed this because in Japan different than US or in different places, when the fight starts you don't see nothing, you don't hear anything. The crowd is all quiet and when you do a move they all, oh, they follow the fight with precision with details. They admire not only the fight but also the personality, how they can relate to you, your attitude, your character.

So when I'm not celebrating Yuki Nakai's defeat, show some respect, show some attitude. And the fact I was not mean to him also they noticed, they say Hickson didn't punch the guy they're supposed to. So they noticed the fact I was nice. I was serious for battle, but not overpowering, not trying to be a coward and hit him or hurt him in a bad way.

So all those little details add to my profile in Japan because they notice all those details and they feel like I was the expression of a new samurai, you know, because I was not bringing back to Japan like I thank you them for, because at the first tournament I said I like to thank you Japan to bringing Jiu-Jitsu to Brazil. Now I'm bringing back because I feel like

is my way to give back to Japan. So all this translates in me become some kind of expression of what samurai supposed to be today. You know, Japan has a big problem with security state of mind because once they lost the war, the kindness becomes some kind of fear. So they smile at you, they bow to you, but sometimes they don't like you at all. And they show that kind of cold image of respect, of he-he-he-ha-ha. And eventually they becomes your enemies. So Japanese lost their soul when they lost the war.

The attitude of samurai is proud. So they lost their source. They lost their attitude. So they become more like servers and complying with the energy of the rest of the universe. So my image brought somehow some kind of example of how the modern samurai supposed to act. no swords but attitude, the way I speak, the way I, you know, sometimes they, prior to the fights, they have like a press day, you know. And then we have 30 different magazines for 20 minutes interviews, always coming in the room

and doing quick interviews, some pictures, and they leave. So some guys coming from very important magazines. One of them coming to me and said, Mr. Grace, I just have one question. How do you do to fight a polar bear? I not laugh on that question. I don't say anything. I just thought, what a question is that? And I answered to him without losing my pace.

I said, man, I never intend to fight a polar bear. It's not my goal. But if I have to fight one, I'm going to have a nice jacket for the winter. I'm going to have a lot of meat, a bear meat on my frieze. And I'm going to have a nice necklace of bearer tooths. So with that answer, I show him, I'm not afraid of the outcome. I don't blink

in front of my... So he said, oh, master, I don't expect anything like that. So they left. So just to see how his mind works, Japanese is very special in terms of... They have a samurai helmet, almost like a

scent on the altar, you know? They have the katanas. Like an example, God for them comes from like a bushido life of type, have to have honor and dignity, integrity. So when they see me, they see me like as a new samurai,

they bring the kids, say, can you touch his face, please? Can you touch his head? Things like you don't believe happens, and you say, okay, sure. So Japanese becomes very much enlightened with my knowledge of martial arts, my ideas of how to deal with my,

opponents how to deal with my peace of mind emotional control and so on so was was something very interesting my experiences in Japan now that's that's a little bit correct me if I'm wrong but in the movie choke right when you're dealing with this you know you have Yuki Nakai coming up and you're you're basically telling Hoyler hey listen I'm not gonna hit him you know I'm gonna be P I'm gonna be as do as little damage as I can and Hoyler's like Fuck that. You need to kill that motherfucker.

He's going to be trying to kill you. It's a really good contrast, but you were able to overcome that and maintain that samurai spirit. Yes. I mean, Hoyer is a great guy. He's very tough. And because he was not too big, all his life, he was a smaller guy. So people, they disrespect Hoyler in a different way. They disrespect me.

Forget Jiu-Jitsu, forget Gracie family. But they look at me. They don't want problems with me. They look at Hoyle and say, hey, man, get out of the place. So they have no respect. So Hoyle is always on his toes, letting nothing pass because he's a warrior and he don't want to be disrespected.

So any glimpse of lack of respect, he becomes agitated. So one day we left the academy to surf. Surfboards on top, traffic in Brazil, traffic jam. And somehow I cut off a taxi driver. I make a mistake. He horned. Then he horned. And then he got on my side.

And he called me names. You, man, blah, blah, blah. And I immediately said, hey, man, I'm sorry, brother. Sorry, bro. And then Hoyler looked at me and said, Hickson, the guy called you this, this and that. How you can apologize for the guy? Why you don't kick his ass?

I said, Hoyler, can you imagine the hell this guy leaving? Just being on traffic? crazy like that. Can you imagine we're going to surf now? Can you imagine just coming from the school, training, sparring, kicking ass, training hard? You think I'm going to fight this guy? He's old.

He's fat. He's out of shape. Just because he called me a name, I have to beat him up. Come on, Hoyler. Forgive this guy. Let him go. Let his, let life beat him. He's already a poor guy.

And Hoyler told me up today, said Hickson, that message for me. was hit me on the heart because nothing can be more you know I never expect this from you and once you tell me that I start to redo my life

and see how much people I can forgive and how much calm I can be if I don't have to prove I know I can beat the guy but I don't have to just prove every time just because you ask me for and that's kind of message Hoyler never forgot anymore so you end up you end up fighting Tocata

once and then you fight him again. You beat him. I think you beat him by arm lock both times. Yeah, both times. That's why, as they say, Hickson by arm lock. Going back to the book here. This is 2000. Earlier that year, Hawkson injured his knee while training.

It was slow to heal and I think he felt his dream of becoming a champion fighter slipping away. While I was in Rio, there were rumors going around that Hawkson was a prospective member of an L.A. street gang. By the time I returned to Los Angeles, Hoxon was getting ready to leave for New York with his Brazilian girlfriend. After Hawkson left for the East Coast, I received a message from him that he had made it to New York and that everything was going well. When we didn't hear from him for over a month, I wasn't worried because he was still using his ATM card in New York City.

A month later, December turned into January, and we still had not heard from him. Now I was truly worried. My cousin Henzho's academy was in New York City and some of his students were policemen, so I asked Hensu if he could try to find my son. A few days later, a shaken Hensow called and told me that an officer had found a photograph of an unidentified corpse at the coroner's office with a tattoo that read Hicks and Gracie, number one dad. Up to this point, Hawkson had been a missing person.

This was the confirmation that he was gone. After I hung up the phone, the whole family melted into tears. Kim seated beside me looked hopeless. I told the kids that Hoxnan had moved on to another life and was now with holes. Now representing the Gracie family, I had to go to New York City for the physical confirmation. I knew in my heart that my son was dead. You talk in this, you know, in this section here. I mean, obviously, I don't think there's anybody that thinks there's anything worse than losing a child.

And you talk about what you did, what you thought, and how you had to get through this. Yes. Some of the lessons that you had to learn and some of the things that you had to do, you know, you ended up, you ended up building like a, like a, like, like a tree house. Yes, kind of platform on the tree. And that was sort of your escape, but it was an escape, but it ended up sort of being a reconnection.

Definitely. I felt like up to that point, my life was being just a very beautiful ride, even with the pressures, even with the doubts. I have always been in charge of my own desires. I was thinking I was controlling time. I have a perfect family, kids, loving friends and trainees.

I mean, my life was perfect, and I was thinking I was in charge. When Hawks on Departure, I felt like the floor just got out of my feet. I was just lost track of, I lose the desire to surf, I lose the desire to train, to teach. You know, I was a little unsocial. a little bit. You know, I was not saving tears. I was crying a lot. I let myself get down to the hole

in a way to embrace a rock and go to the lake and go deep on the bottom of the lake. And I allowed myself to get deeper enough to know, to feel important. And also, from that lower point, decide if I'm going to kill myself, if I want to drink,

drugs, give up from life. I don't know. I was just allowed myself to get weak enough and fragile enough to, from that point, see what's happened. And once I get to that bottom, I decided to make it. I was in the hillside on my house. I was there just. And I was climbing some trees. And then I saw a beautiful tree with a beautiful ocean view.

said, I want to create a platform here to talk with Hawkson. So for about three weeks, from first light to dawn, I was working on this project, from designing to buying the wood, to buying the screws and bringing the electrical to make the hose and stuff. Just focus on this. My hands are kind of bleeding for so much work. So I'm making focus on creating that kind of platform. And after that platform, done, took me almost three weeks.

I would make an amazing job, put the wood and put varnish. So it was beautiful. I felt like was a mission accomplished there. I said, now I make my tribute to you. So I want to be in peace. And it was a better feeling for me to make this because anytime I miss Roxon, I was going up there. light up an incense, meditate a little bit, thinking about good things, have a picture there.

And I spend maybe a year more and a much better vibration, but not exactly out of the whole. And one day I was thinking up there. And I remember what my dad said about nothing can be 100% wrong or bad. nothing can be 100% right or good. It's always a dual aspect in everything. And I started to thinking, what's going to be the advantage of Hawkson's departure? How, I mean, how this can be good in any way?

I started to look for a reason. And then I find something very important, which was up to Hawkson's departure, I was in charge. if him or anyone else something Hickson can you teach me today Dad can you take me to the beach whatever it is I can say no not today

let's go tomorrow let's leave this not today I don't feel good so I was thinking about being in charge of the time in a much more powerful way than I was than I have so after his departure I'm sure tomorrow may never happen

so based on that different I start to use my day much more efficient. To give you an example, I could be down on the freeway to fight in Japan or to make a big program in Japan. I'm in the freeway. If my daughter call me, Dad, I have to talk to you, she's crying. I will stop the car in the freeway and talk to her. What's the problem? This and that, so it resolved this.

So I will talk to her until I be able to give my best way. to give my best opinion, my best information, give my time as long as it takes. After this finish, I turn off the phone, I will see if I still have time to go to Japan, if I still have time to get the flight, whatever. If not, I will reschedule, I will do, because today, I cannot do this for tomorrow.

So I learn effectively how to use my time with precision, with not expect, wasting time with things are not matter, or not give you the value of time, which time is very valuable. And I start to become more effective on how to use my time, how the purpose of my life, my service, what is really matters for me. And I start to use my day much more worth it. From a conversation like that today, from a teaching a student, from talking with my family, I will be much more precise. I want to be much more on time, much more, you know, with no loose ends or no gaps.

It's just tight. So by doing that, I reborn. I reinvent myself in a different me with much more compassion, much more interested for things, much more ways to bring Jiu-Gitzu to others. I'm still at service. So being happy with that make me feel like I have to thank you, Hawkson, for his departure

in order for me to achieve that kind of enlightenment, that kind of depth on my being alive and being at service. If I was not for that, I could be a lot of loose gaps up today and having my mind in a different matter. So I saw the positivity of his departure have given me the chance to become a better man.

So I'm thankful in a way he's taught me that with his departure. So I compensate a little B, and from that on, I become fully restore my energy levels, my happiness, my desire to live my life and let Hawkson be in peace in heaven and with halls and waiting for us, dancing and being happy.

That's, I've had that conversation with myself quite a few times. You know, I've lost some very common. close people to me and I've I've actually had that discussion with many other people as they lose lose their loved ones and you know they they will people have literally asked me you know what possibly what possible good can there be from this there's nothing good this is horrible and like you did you have to kind of pull back and and look at things from a different perspective and and there there always is something positive there always is a lesson to be learned there always is

the memories that you that you get to keep. Yes. And obviously this had an impact on the rest of your family. You say here, losing Hoxon put Kron on the path to martial arts greatness. On some level, I think Hawkson knew that Kron had the natural talent and tools to be even better than he. Like all my kids, he had trained Jiu-Jitsu all of his life, but was never as interested as Hawkson.

now it was his turn to shine. Even though they were brothers, Hawksin and Cron were completely different. Hawksin was emotional, intense, and intent on proving himself a Gracie warrior. Cron was more observant, analytical, and calm. He wanted to do the right things and always be at his best. In one of their last conversations,

Hawksin told Cron that he was a Gracie and to give 110% and never quit in whatever it was that he chose to do. After Hawkson died, Cron took that to heart, and was now on a mission to become the next apex predator in the Gracie food chain. You say here the more Cron won, the less attached he became to winning. After he realized that the outcome of fight does not define you as a person, he improved by leaps and bounds. He trained as hard as humanly possible, and when he competed, he let the chips fall where they may.

Win, loser, draw. He would be back in the academy on Monday and train as if the fight had never happened. When my father died in his sleep in 2009 at the age of 90, I was in Europe with Kron for the European Jiu-Jitsu Championship. We received the news the day of the tournament and knew that we could not get back to Brazil for the funeral. Instead, we went back to our hotel room and held our own memorial. We cried and shared memories.

The day Aalio died, Kron represented his grandfather on the mat as Aalio would have liked. He won both of his matches by submission, and after he won the European title, He kissed the picture of Hoxon that always as always and bowed to the giant mural of Aileo the tournament organizers put up to commemorate his life It was a beautiful moment for both of us Aalio and Carlos Gracie's legacies were now being carried and upheld by a third generation That's the family tradition, huh? Again, you know in the book you carry on and and talk about a family tradition.

You know, some of some of the other things that proceeded after that. And I want to get a little bit, go towards the end of the book here. And you know, you've talked about this a little bit today, but I think it's important to reiterate. You say my goal today is to create a form of jiu-jitsu that will empower the entire person, both on and off the mat. If I can ever make a nervous person feel more relaxed than they've ever felt before, I'm changing them from within in a way that a psychiatrist or a person, pill never can. Today, conflict comes in many forms, and physicality is only one aspect of it. Conflict follows humans wherever they go, and people adopt different strategies to cope with it. Modern enemies can strike in a text, an email, or in a social media post. As the world of

instant communication has evolved, many negative unintended consequences have evolved with it. 50 years ago, a 10-year-old boy went in his room only to sleep because he spent all day outside playing. Today, if parents aren't careful, their children will spend the entire day alone in their rooms. We cannot dismiss technology, but why let us turn us

into brains with vegetable bodies? One of the worst side effects of technology is the way it has reduced human direct interaction. Because people can get almost everything they desire, food, entertainment, friendship, sex, via the screen, they have gotten to the

point of being scared face-to-face interaction. There are so many wonderful things that are impossible to experience on a screen, jumping into a cold river, making the drop on a big wave, and walking in the rain or just a few. Even worse, social media provides an arena for cowards to lurk in the cyber shadows and say things that they would never dare say in person. Mike Tyson put it best when he said that social media has made people, quote, way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it.

Today I try to use Jiu-Jitsu as a tool to teach patience, hope, strategy, emotional control, breathing, and many other things, all without conflict and competition. This allows those who need it most to learn the visible and invisible aspects of the art in ways that could help them in their everyday lives. I have developed a training routine wherein students learn the practice, learn and practice all the movements and techniques and techniques of jiu-jitsu in a cooperative instead of competitive environment. I can teach the most critical, invisible aspects of jiu-jitsu, like base, timing, weight distribution, and connection with little stress. In this type of class, I can have two beginners blocking punches and doing hip throws. Your training partner is there to help not to fight you.

So that's what you were talking about earlier today. Yes. I felt like we all in war. warfare. It's not about being a soldier. It's not about being a fighter. We are under stress. We are, you know, our lives today are driving in different modes and different aspects. So what you really need to conquer is happiness. Your biggest achievement is to focus on how to be happy, how to bring your family to the best scenario, how to bring your job, how to bring your your assets, how to bring your, the way you practice, your physical. So you want to conquer a lot of things.

There's a lot of things to be conquered in order for you to be happy. And in order for you to be happy, it's no luck. I don't believe in luck. I don't believe you're going to be happy just by close your eyes. You know, and if you're happy today, 10 years from now, what make you happy today? either evolve or doesn't make no sense it's not going to make you happy. You have a different goal. Every time you just have a different, first buy a car, then buy a house, then get married,

whatever it is, is the next step to make you happier, to make you in a good position. And I see those kind of challenges, those kind of obstacles, as little battles, which when you focus, when you have the capital, strategy, strategic capacity, when you have emotional control, when you have believe in yourself, when you have hope. So a lot of elements on the warrior toolbox has to be used for daily practice for average jobs. It's not about being a special warrior and be able to have emotional control. It's for the weak one.

It's for the guy who has an email and going to lose his rent or whatever. So this guy needs emotional control. It's the same I need, it's the same you need. You know. So the idea of empower people cannot come in with, I will empower you, but you have to prove you can handle. Sometimes the guy don't have, I don't have what he needs. I don't have what he needs to be a fighter.

But he loves to learn details for self-defense. He loves to learn details for self-emotional control through breathing. He loves to understand what's the solution for that. For that problem, what's the solution for that? So based on information, based on practice, he may never fight nobody, but that will incorporate on his behavior. A completely different mindset, a completely different way to breathe and rebounce the distress. A complete different way for you to feel good about a possible engagement.

So sometimes I train my students to keep the distance, not in, not clinch, but keep just stay away from my punch. So I will try to keep, so based on your space, you can survive. You see people in the UFC surviving an attack, basically moving away. So if you just move away, you don't have to be a fighter to survive. So I put you an expert and not getting punch. That's already a big asset in your life. If you average Joe, you make sure nobody going to punch you in the face.

It's a big win already. So my purpose with that knowledge is to prepare people to win without a fight. Based on different components, mental components, spiritual components and physical components. Okay, man, you don't have to prove me. You just have to believe you have a chance. So by giving that chance for a average Joe, I want to empower the world in a different and a very special way because I will offer them what they need to become more humanized. to become more sharp, to become better in control,

to become more strategically correct, what makes life different. If you tell me what the successful people has in common, all the successful people have a few things in common. They all love what they do. They all capable to pass obstacles and not give up easy. They all capable also to to become, to making decisions under pressure.

They're all able to keep learning and keep progressing and keep taking advantage. So they have open mind about how to strategize, how is the new game coming. So they're not unfamiliar with behaviors and situations which everybody's successful has in common. So give you those tools,

give you the glimpse of what you need to become successful. If you have to believe in what you do, you have to practice, you have to make sure the strategy is correct and so on. So based on those elements, I cannot transform people

from a coward guy to make him a courageous. But I can make a coward guy becomes talent enough to believe he has a chance. And that can transform. transform his decisions and a courageous decisions. So because we live in a life of pretending, because we live in a life of images and look good, and so I like to take you from you looking from the mirror for you start to feeling.

So when you start to feel yourself in death, you start to understand your breathing, understand your leverage, understand your base, completely changed the dynamic. you handle the word, the way you shake your hand, the way you approach somebody, looking in the eye and things like that. So that kind of Jujitsu can favors anyone in the globe, different than I specialize Jujitsu for competition, which favors just the warriors who want to favors through Jiu Jiu Jitsu.

Yeah, that's, you know, you were talking about what does a successful people have in common? They have an open mind, they overcome obstacles, they use the right strategies at the, the right times, they're comfortable in these uncomfortable positions and situations, and these are all things that you can learn if you learn Jiu-Jitsu. Of course. Yes. Of course. Because a metaphor for life, you know, the same situation you have to be calm enough and breathe and put your hand

and start working leverage instead brutality. Same thing in life. You get any problems, you have to have the same articulated mindset to just survive or escape or control, whatever it is. It's all about making quick changes and start to become focus and the purpose. You know, I'm going to read one last little section from the book. We're almost three hours right now. So I'm going to read one little last section from the book.

Goes fast when we enjoy. It does. I could sit here all day. You say this, on my best day now, I'm only 5% of what I once was as a fighter. However, my invisible power transcends my physicality and will be part of me until the day I die. That is why for me, Jiu-Jitsu is about much more than fighting. It is a tool to teach people about themselves.

It is great to see it becomes so popular and provide lucrative businesses for so many, but this has nothing to do with what I teach. Of my students, 98% trained two or three days a week. trying to perfect basic techniques and then testing them on a level playing field. Helping my students try to become better people, not just smashing machines, is what motivates me. Jiu-jitsu is my philosophy, my sacred honor, and my family tradition. It has made me strong enough to forgive and confident enough to fight for my beliefs. Just outstanding.

Jiu-Jitsu is life. Yes. So before you go, once again, this book is called Breathe a Life in Flow. It's by Hicks and Gracie with Peter McGuire, who's actually become a friend of mine. And I know he's a friend of yours. And a great guy, a surfer, a jihitsu practitioner. Yes. A scholar.

Yes. So I look forward. to working with him some more. So the way that you're spreading the word now, you have Hickson.com. Yes. That's where you do online training. I watch some of the videos.

You're going to get people are going to get such good details out of what you're saying. Sometimes I think it'd be impossible for someone to explain how you put pressure and how you stable. hips and how you move hips. But when you watch those videos, you start to understand

you do have the ability to explain what you're doing. Yes, because Jiu-Jitsu is about feeling. It's not about seeing or understanding. You have to feel. And I like to approach Jiu-Jitsu in a way. I have to make you feel when you relax, when you

just about angles, just about details, invisible details, who translates in a deep effect, So I don't start to seeking to you show me what you have. I try to take you off your elements, okay, relax and put you in a way for you to understand and feel the weak's vision, the vision of the weak one into the approach. Because if you feel like you can fight as a weak person, imagine if you put the muscles you have on.

If I change around and start to use and exploiting the muscles you have on, you may never going to perceive the death of what I want to show you. So my father always say when he's training somebody, say, hey, man, stop, stop. You too tense, be relaxed. Loosen up. If I'm not, I cannot fight. Because he was just seeking to give you the information which goes into your gut feeling.

You say, wow, I never felt like that difference can change. so much in effectiveness. And by feeling that, you start to feel like it's a different element to be added to whatever you have, if you're strong, if you fast, if you compare. All these are qualities, personal qualities. But the depth of the knowledge we try to pass to you transcends all this.

So you're able to not only explain for a weak person, but also to encase somebody with 300 pounds, solid muscle, you have the chance to deal with them in a different natural comfortable situation. So it's amazing how much that kind of sensorial feeling can add to your capacity, to mental capacity, to your spiritual capacity, and also to your physicality. So that's Hickson Academy. Hickson. Dot Academy is how you get there. Great stuff on there. You have Hickson,gracy.com.

sort of where you can buy, you can read some history stuff, but you got a store on there. And then on Facebook, you're at Hicks and Gracie. And on Instagram, which you have a bunch of cool little clips on Instagram too. And that's Hicks and Gracie, JJ. Yes. Echo, you got anything? I have many things, but in the spirit of saving sometime,

I have one question. So you know the first UFC when they chose, Hoise. Yes. Did he tell you why he chose hoist rather than you? Yeah, his answer was, I want to put hoist because in case something happened with him, we always have a bigger bullet to put it on. But in reality, he has control over hoist.

He did have control over me. I was already working on Pico Boulevard. I was already my own, you know, have my own school. So in order for him to have control of, of. not only the fighter in there, but still with the best brand, was better for him to have hoists. Gotcha. They said that, I think it might have been like in the documentary or whatever.

They were like, he wanted to kind of display Jiu-Jitsu with someone who was like less physical, less, you know, bigger or whatever that way. It would display Jiu-Jitsu a little bit better. Because like if you went in and you're like this more athletic guy, they were like, oh, well, he's more of an athlete, so it doesn't really highlight the Jiu-Jitsu part of it. Yeah. I disagree with that because for me and between me and him are only 10 pounds difference. So I felt like he was able to even even the first payment for the UFC.

He holds Hoyce supposed to get a 50,000 check and I supposed to get 5,000 from Royces. I'm still waiting because he didn't pay Royce. He didn't pay me. So it was just pure love for us. was a businessman, so he knows better what he's doing. So I kind of disagree with that statement or if he, Hoyce was smaller and looked fragile. Hoist was tough, too. I've trained with Hoyce. He's not small and he's not fragile. That's for damn sure. He's a beast. Yes. Yeah, thank you. Good to see you again. My pleasure, brother. Hickson, any closing thoughts?

Man, first, thank you. You were such aspiring warrior and having, you know, you know, you helping me on the book and get me in your podcast is already a bless. Second, man, I feel like we are in the same business of empowerment. You know, you're bringing your knowledge, your expertise to help people in terms of understand pressure, understand discomfort, to understand victory, understand, you know, bravery. And I'm in the same business which empowers people and give them better chances to handle life which is not easy those days. So it's a pleasure to talk to you.

It's a pleasure to see the energy which is similar, and we are in the same mode of supporting the future generations, you know, with your expertise, with my expertise. So it's just a great day on the office, and I'm happy to say, you know, this book maybe help a lot of people. And this book is just the idea, it's my personal life.

It was not something which has the intention to make you copy or be what is in the book. But creates a venue for different discussions, creates a venue for different seminars, different speeches, and everything coming from that, because in essence, we all need to use more love in our hearts. We all need to use more techniques to victory, you know. Nothing comes for in love. nothing is just act of God.

I feel like you have to represent yourself in terms of have God inside you and bringing the best service to make people get benefits from it. So thank you, too. Well, thank you. Thanks to your whole family, I guess especially your uncle and to your father who created this incredible martial art, brought it to the world. and like you've been saying,

it's not just to help people fight better, but actually to live better. And it's had such a huge impact on my life. And I can say without hesitation that my life would not be even close to where it is if it wasn't for you, for your family, and for jiu-jitsu. So it's an honor to know you.

It's an honor to talk to you, and I will continue to do my best to spread the art that your family and you taught to me. Thank you, my brother. Thank you, Echel. Perfect. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And with that, Hicks and Gracie has left the building. Only after he did spend a few minutes talking about Invisible Jiu-Jitsu and, you know, showing me some stuff. Yeah.

Were you, you were hitting, did you hit record? Were you? You videoed a little of that. A little bit, yeah. Yeah. It's weird. So he talks about this thing called Invisible Jiu-Jitsu, which we didn't really talk about today.

but it's a thing and I know it's a thing because you know when you're showing a move like let's say I'm showing a move with you and I'm talking to so I'm using you as a dummy and I'm talking to the group of students right and I say well you can't really see what I'm doing here to the students but I'm like echo do you feel this and I it feels one way and then I go now feel this and no one can tell anything different but you go yeah it feels a lot heavier it feels a lot like I'm off back and I'm off bad and I'm off balance and it feels a lot more stable. So there's things in Jiu-Jitsu that are invisible. And obviously, they're the hardest thing to teach. Well, Hickson, that's sort of Hickson's thing is he's got these things that you cannot see, but they're real. They're invisible, but they're real. And like I was trying to explain, he talks about some of those on Hickson Dot Academy.

He starts to go into details of those things. And he can explain it. So, and just when he was explaining it to me and I will say, you know, he's doing it to me. And I'm like, well, that is freaking awesome. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And jih Tjitsu is so dynamic, even if you don't see it, where doing it versus not doing it is night and day when you're in there.

You know, so like even like the thing was where you're essentially controlling your base, right? You controlling your base versus not controlling your base in that way. When you go up against somebody and they have to contend with you controlling your base in that way versus not, it's going to be a, completely different scenario for them. Different experience. When I grabbed the single on him. Yeah. And he was like, you know, go ahead.

And I started like trying to get a little, little uppity with that thing. And I couldn't move him. And I was, you know, I'm starting to think, I was actually, I mean, we did it for 20 seconds, right? And in my mind, I was like, I'm working right now. That's what I was thinking. I was like, I'm working.

I'm trying to pull this thing. And he's not working. He's just using invisible jiu-jitsu versus me. and it's it's going to wear me out. Oh yeah. And you can't even see it. But before you came in, when he started, you could see he kind of wanted to show me some stuff. And he goes, he goes, stand here and, you know, start with it.

And he just like, stand here. And he started doing like some basic self-defense with me. And I was like, okay, you know, cool, you know, I'm thinking, of course, what am I thinking? I'm arrogant. I have a big ego, right? I got to know this. And he goes, okay, now do this. And I was like, okay.

And he's basically, he pushes me and I, like, immediately get my base, right? You know, I put my foot back again into a fight stance. And he goes, okay. Well, that's okay, right? And he says, now do this. And he teaches me a little invisible jiu-jitsu. And now he pushes me again and I don't go anywhere. Right?

Mm-hmm. That's the jiu-jitsu. That's the jiu-jit. So, awesome to have Hickson on. Speaking of jiu-jitsu, we're training jiu-jitsu. if you're not training jiu-jitsu obviously start training jih Tzu and when you do that guess what you're going to need supplementation oh look at you

Yeah it does it does It does help He did talk about to Actually I'm not even sure if you talk about it on air Where you know when you A lot of people start jih Tutsu and then they They stop Jiu-Jitsu then they stop Because in one of the elements one of them is

that they jump into the competitive part of it. Go to war. Yeah, the war and not even necessarily voluntarily. Like they'll get just thrown, oh yeah, we're sparring right now. Just go spar. And then they'll come across someone who's,

you know, intense or whatever. And a lot of times you just become intense just because of the unfamiliar nature with what you're doing. Because you're a human being that's being escalated on and you're going to escalate back and ego and all nine yards. You know, it's level seven war.

Yeah. And then just, but just even before gets toward just that stress. It's like some people, they don't want that beef right away. Even some people, they don't want that beef. They just, they want to learn. They want to learn and, you know, have kind of a stress-free learning kind of experience. But that's part I never really thought about, you know, because I think we kind of go in down

for that beef. You know, I, I mentioned surfing as a comparison. I'm like, hey, if you're going to start surfing and I take you to Mavericks. Yeah. Which is scary rocks. cold water, sharks, giant waves, you're not even going to get in the water, bro. You're literally not going to get in the water.

And I think that's the way a lot of people unfortunately view Jiu-Jitsu. And they're kind of right, because if you go to a lot of schools, guess what's happening? Day one, you're in the big water, in the deep water, and the cold water with sharks.

Yeah. And you're getting bit. Just kind of left, too, you know? So, man, I wish I would think about that a little bit more. Yeah. It's definitely something to think about. But it is a good form of exercise, which is important. Exercise in all capacities, very important.

And yes, we do need supplementation from time to time. I think if it's part of your routine, you're going to be, you're going to reap way more benefits over time. Short and long term, by the way. So, Jocko supplements are Jocko fuel. Let's start with energy drinks. And that's what it is. Discipline go. Real energy.

Yep. Had one today, by the way. Actually, I've been kind of have one. I'm actually kind of done right now. Pretty much every day. You don't have to drink one every day, but that's just a happen since. We certainly can. Yeah.

Some new flavors out, watermelon and mango passion fruit. Mango passion fruit is the best flavor. According to some people. Yeah. Factually, I think, I'm pretty sure factually is the best flavor. So, yeah, if you didn't know that, Travis Mills might have something to say about that. You know, yeah, I would expect that to be the case. He might have to open a can of wop-ass under you,

wop-ass watermelon. I anticipate that being the case, yes. Then the last, yes, new flavor, so yes, check those out. Let me know what you think, the mango one. Good reviews so far. Anyway, yes, healthy energy drinks. That's Echo's thing. That's Echo's flavor, by the way, just so everybody knows.

All good. It's not an unbiased judgment. It's his flavor. His signature flavor. Like I said, factual. Then the last, all healthy. All good, no bad. Drink a bunch of them and you'll be better off.

Be a better, be a better person. We also got joint warfare. Look, you're doing jihitsu, you're lifting, you're running, your joints are going to take a little bit of abuse.

Joint warfare, krill oil. You can just go on to those. Just get on them. Just get on them. And don't look back. And if you have to look back, you'll be looking back at store joints.

So don't. And by the way, so if you want to get on them and say on them, subscribe. Yeah. So go to joccofuel. com, order them,

subscribe to them. And then shipping's free. You'll get it for, you get the stuff shipped you for free. You won't have the mental lapse like some people used to. In the podcast used to have where they would forget to order. Don't let that happen to you. Discipline powder.

We got vitamin D3 and cold water. Those are also just just sort of staples of life. Yeah. Right? Staples of life. You're not getting enough D vitamin D. It's not happening. Get it the proper way.

Yeah. It's one of those things too where you get in the routine, you got the subscription. and all that. It's just part of the routine. You don't have to worry about those effects anymore. That's a big one. You don't notice it, but it's better to not notice it than to notice when you eat it.

You don't notice it in a good way. You're not like, damn, my knee hurts. Damn, my elbow hurts. You're just going, damn. I'm looking forward to training today. Yes, exactly. That's what you're getting.

Yep, it's true. If you need a little extra protein, get yourself a mulk. I ate two ribby steaks last night for dinner. That's good. And a mold. I was going to say, and? And it was a triple mulk.

So, here, this is not a normal thing for me, but I went, you know, start it, I was on fast. And what do we call it when you, you don't mean to fast? Incidental fast. That's what it was. Yeah. And it was like, man. I F. Incidental fasting.

And it was getting kind of late. I was like, man, I didn't eat anything today. So I'm just going to eat one time, essentially. And it's going to be big. I'm going big. Got to go big. So yeah, two ribbyes, brown rice. How big are the ribbyes?

Oh, the regular size of one. Okay. So those are big. Yeah, they're big. They're not those thick, thick monsters, but I know what a regular. But not the things. You say regular, I have an image. Yes, sir.

We're talking probably 14 to 16 ounces, you know, probably about a pound. Yep. That's like a regular rib eye. It is very normal person. Yes. Because my ribbyes are those thick ones. Yeah. The thick ones are good too, but, bro, you think I'm going to eat two of those.

I don't know. You know, I'd have to be pretty hungry, put it that way. But then a triple, what's a triple mold? You said it was a triple mold. Three scoops. Okay. Two big. In fact, it was so.

big the milk was so big like my stomach was getting like way too big but it was tasting good so I pound it but I didn't do you mix it with regular milk milk half milk half almond milk see that's the thing with a banana thing and I got to say you know people like think I'm a close-minded about you know nutrition or I'm closed-minded about my habits because I am a very habitual person but these things that have recently been introduced to me coconut milk almond milk oat milk like I've been trying these other milks and what's nice about them is if if you get that little lactose I'm not lactose intolerant like strictly but if I drink a whole bunch of milk let's face it we're not feeling great might have some effects yeah so you mix up the milk with the almond milk or the coconut milk

or whatever kind of other milk that's out there you're you don't know you don't really know the difference it still just tastes like a freaking dream yes so the the almond obviously there's a plethora Different types of almond milk. Sweet and unsweetened. It's surprised you can't get like bark milk for whatever. Yeah, exactly. The particular one I did was the unsweeten. It's super like milk to me doesn't taste sweet at all.

Milk is not sweet. But apparently it is because unsweetened almond milk is like, whoa, like you can taste the unsweetenedness of it. So I did a half and half. And but with the milk and the banana, boom. You're good. Oh, yeah. 100%. It was essentially a dessert.

and additional proprout there was like a thousand grams of protein you had so much protein yeah I feel so good at the brown rice though was why can't you train today uh I have prior engagements okay but why can't you train today well maybe if it was later like it maybe like five okay why can't you train today it was bumped out of the so all right so you realize we trained I mean I don't know if you thought it was hard but you know okay you know when you get into like a routine working out training you don't feel doms as much You don't feel like every once in a while, like I'll have one with Greg. And yesterday was was actually kind of intense one with you where the next day like today when I woke up, I was like.

You had full body dogs. Full body. Like I got hit by a truck like to roll over. You did. You know what it was? It was that choke that I was trying to defend that you didn't have sunk in but you had it tight, you know, that kind of stuff. So you feel like, oh, I can defend, but I'm going to take some heavies on this. And I'm like defending trying to build.

And then at the end, it's like, all right, it did. You know what's bad, but your choke? I'm just going to say it. So your choke sinks in and it's tight. But you know how most people, when they sink in a submission that's not all the way sunken and you feel them like pushing hard? You feel after a few seconds, you feel them let up a little bit for some kind of adjustment, you know, or maybe because, you know, you can't keep that intensity on the application for that long, you know?

So you feel them loosening up a little bit and maybe adjust and then go for it again or whatever. brother, yours just gets, like, harder and harder. Like, your choke doesn't even get tired. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm resisting it, resist. And then, yeah, for whatever. Finally, I get choked. So I tap. And then, like, I'm paying this price for it even after I tap.

And then I think you choke me, like, again, too. Anyway, so I'm like, all right, cool. And after you train, you're all loose and, you know, warm and stuff. So, but next day, which is today, by the way, hurting. Okay, well, we got to train. All right, well, I'm going to go train. All right. So any of this stuff, you can get it, you can get it at the vitamin shop.

You can get it, you can get the drinks at Wawa. Yes. Wawa is fully in full support. Go hit your Wawa. Get yourself a hoagie. Oh, yeah. A shorthy from Wawa. And a discipline go.

Yeah, and a discipline go. And also joccofuel.com. Like I said, subscribe. We know shipping can be a pain. But if you subscribe, you don't even have to worry about it. It's just coming for free. So that's that. Also, we were talking about Jiu-Tit-t today.

And also at origin. Get yourself a Jiu-Jitsu ghee. Just go get one. You know Hickson was talking about like oh, we had gis before we had diapers go look at pictures of like the the Gracie family when they're all just wearing geese. That's true. It's funny because I joke about like hey, you can't just wear a ghee around. Apparently if it's 19 whatever 1965 and you're in the Gracie family you are wearing a key. You are wearing a guy. We're wearing it to the beach. We're wearing it to the market. We're wearing it wherever. Yeah, that's that's funny like all those I got kind of fired up for that like I'm thinking about wearing a Ghee more often in more regular situations just representing Jiujitsu. It's crazy the whole comprehensive psychological approach that they had because they every once in a while you'll hear about like hoiler would tell us about it where he'd be like yeah if you know if you lose your first tournament you get 20 bucks if you win you only get 10 kind of a thing and say call that's some weird psychology not weird but that's some like intense psychological. Like they're thinking it's not like they're just throwing people in in the Jiu-jitsu because you have to your names crazy

It's like there's this whole kind of thing So every once in all those details or whatever this it's real interesting that's it's interesting. That's interesting They were so used to it It's like you just wear the ghee that's just wearing the ghee I'm kind of pissed off at myself that my kids just weren't wearing a glee to school when they were seven years old What are you doing? Jiu Jitsu? Yeah Back away so if you want any of this jiu jiu-jitsu stuff or if you want to get jeans if you decide maybe you're not ready to wear a guy all the time like I'm deciding right now if you're not ready

for that cool it's cool get yourself some jeans get yourself some boots get yourself some t-shirts origin USA dot com and the USA part isn't just like oh it's origin USA we're calling it US no it's because it's made in America yeah which by the way is not no is is no small feet yes we are making everything in America even the clay even the clay analogy someone's just talking yeah yeah that's the clay is made yeah everything the materials are made in America. The materials are made. The copper rivets on your jeans are made in America. Yep. The copper's from America. The cotton is from America. Some people call it cotton. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. You know what I'm talking about. So Origin USA.com. Go check it out. Go support America and support jiu-jitsu. What else?

The righteous way. Also, Jocko is the store. It's called Jocco store. This is where you can get your t-shirts, hoodies, hats with discipline equals freedom. Good. The attitude. Hickson was talking about the attitude of good. You saw it in there, right? Yeah, 100%. Oh, yeah. In the toughest of situations. Oh, yeah. One of them, man. Yeah. Yeah, to the endth degree, in my opinion.

But yeah, you can get, again, apparel, all this stuff. Got some shorts on there. Good stuff on there. We also have a subscription scenario called the shirt locker, different designs. More artistic sometimes, more clever sometimes. I don't know. It's hard to explain. They're cool.

Go in there. Check it out. jocco store.com. If you like something, you get something. You can subscribe to this podcast. If you haven't yet, if you haven't yet, I don't even know if you should. Maybe you should just back away from iTunes and Spotify. Do you know that there's a name for people who watch videos or listen to podcasts, but don't subscribe?

What's the name? Ninja. Ninja watchers or ninjas. They just stealthily. Yeah, like they'll come, they'll come, you know, whatever. I don't know if it's a good thing or bad thing. I mean, it's good if you're not looking to support. We also could call them what?

We could call them free loaders. Freeloaders, yeah, but it's all free. So I don't know that that might not be as accurate. It's not asking, it's not asking much just to click that subscribe. Yeah. Right. It's not like you're like, hey, you know, give me your firstborn child. I'm going to be honest with you, though, straight up.

I don't even know what subscribing, like, does for like, for the podcast. Like, I know what it does for the person subscribing. You're subscribed to it. It's on your feed. You get the thing. That's all it's benefits for sure. down for if that's a podcast you want to listen to but like why do you care if someone subscribe I'll tell you exactly why I care you want to why I care listen we make this

podcast to help people out if someone subscribes to the podcast if you whoever's listening right now subscribes to the podcast that makes the podcast when it gets downloaded when you download it when you listen to it it makes the podcast more popular the more popular the podcast is the higher it goes in the ranking of podcasts. The higher it goes in the ranking of podcasts, the more it gets promoted inside the various podcast platforms. The more it gets promoted inside the various podcast platforms, someone that doesn't know about the podcast goes, I wonder what that's about. Seems popular. A lot of people listen to it. They click on it. They listen to it. Next thing, you know, they're

learning about how to overcome loss. They're learning about what's doing a breakup. They're learning about jujitsu. So you're not just helping yourself. You're not, I mean, look, like you said, Does it benefit us directly? Oh, yeah. Echo doesn't send me a text going, hey, you know, our podcast is ranked number three. You're not doing that. No.

But if it broadens the people that get to hear this information, that's why it's important. Yeah, I guess I never really thought of the whole chain. And that's assuming that it does, in fact, get you higher in the rankings. Oh, it definitely does. I assume it does. Yeah, because I mean, the rankings are based on download.

So if you subscribe to it, it gets downloaded. If you and two of your friends doing it, that's three. That's true. But can't you download it without subscribing, though? And you know what else is weird? I forgot to ask Hicks in this. Let's face it, the Gracies could have just held on to all their knowledge, right? Yeah.

Right? Oh, yeah. And just be dominating the Jitsu, the MMA world right now, not open any schools. Just keep it hidden, keep it secret. It's true. And other people would try and figure it out, but it's different. Different, right? It's, but the right thing to do and their art has progressed more because they opened it up and gave it to the world.

That's all we're trying to do too. So you're just asking to subscribe is to receive essentially. No, to subscribe is to help. It's to help other people learn. It's to help this mentality. So that way, when you go get a job at some new office, there's people that are like, hey, nice to meet you. Their egos in check. They're looking to cover and move and you're able to function better and the world becomes a better place

So you guys in the teams what it was the expression? Pass the word? Spread the word? Pass the word. It's kind of that right? Yep. Pass the word. So we're all on the same page. We're all doing it.

You're making the whole place a better place. So like I was saying subscribe, don't forget about we have Jocko unraveling podcast that I do with my brother, D.C., who also has a podcast called Martyrmaid. Grounded podcast, which is about Jiu-Jitsu. I guess we just kind of did a jih Tijuana podcast in a way. Warrior Kid Podcast as well for the kids out there. We also have jaco underground.com where we have a little alternative podcast. We do some expanded topics. We go into some detail.

We do a lot of Q&A that people can ask questions directly if you're a member of jaco underground.com. You've got to pay to be a member. Well, actually technically you don't have to pay. Look, we request you pay $8.18 a month to be a point. part of that subscription. But if you can't afford it, it's cool. We still want you to be in the game. We still want you to have this knowledge.

You email assistance at jocco underground.com. And the reason we have that is because, look, these tech platforms are very large and very powerful. And they actually have the power to insert advertisements into our podcast. They have the ability to edit or remove or whatever, ban us. I'm not going to mention the podcast. guest name, but it's one that's kind of in our network. I know. Here's the thing. In fact, I maybe shouldn't even say this, but I don't know. The thing is it was randomly removed. It's just removed.

Yeah. From only one specific platform, too, by the way. And I noticed the title of it. I was like, ooh, that could be a controversial title. Yeah. So we don't want to have any of these platforms to have final say on what we're doing. So we made the jococcal. Jocko Underground.com. And if you want to help us out with that alternative platform, if we ever have to leave these platforms, we have a place to land. And we appreciate the support there.

We have a YouTube channel where I am the assistant director to many of the superior and amazing videos. That's real fun. That's been catching on that you're the assistant director. What's funny about it?

It's just, you know. What's funny about it is, what's really funny about it is that we joke about it. Yeah. But what's really funny as you know it ain't funny it's kind of true because you know occasionally yeah I get you got some good input you do I do the shot so go to go to YouTube and subscribe to Jocco podcast also origin origin USA has a podcast channel let me want to know what's going

on up in Maine yeah yeah that's a good one to stay to stay like kind of in the game as far as like hey this is what like legitimate almost in a way redefined American manufacturing yeah it is a unique one because because of like the culture of all them and peed and like all them. Yeah, it's cool to know what's going on too, right? Like you order those boots. You can see who made it. Oh, yeah.

You can see the, think about that. You go to a regular store and buy a pair of jeans. You have no idea what, you know, starving person in a sweatshop in China. Yeah. You don't know, right? You know that they got paid 13 cents for their weeks worth of work like slave labor.

Yeah. Or you can actually go to Origin USA and see the people that are making your stuff and see what they're doing and get in the game. It's freaking legit. Yeah, main ties up there doing it. Yeah, doing great work up there. Main tie. Also, psychological warfare.

If you're having moments of weakness like I used to, not anymore. All right, maybe I do sometimes. But if you have those, you want to skip the workout. You have a workout planned. And then all of a sudden you're like, hey, man, maybe today would be best to rest. But you know that deep down that that's just you being lazy or not in the mood and being weak or whatever. Psychological warfare, you got Jocko helping you through those. moments successfully it's a little album with tracks to get that wherever you purchase

mp3s and if you want some cool stuff to hang on your wall to keep you on the path go to flipside canvas dot com Dakota Meyer he has that company and they're making cool graphical things images to put on your wall which is cool books got a bunch of books hey this book right here breathe a life and flow by Hicks and Grace you just heard from them there's so much more information that I didn't cover I I wrote the Ford. What an honor. I read a little bit of the Ford.

There's quite a bit more to the fore to explain some of these things about Jiu-Jitsu, what impact it had on me. So get the book, Breathe by Hicks and Gracie and Peter McGuire, another awesome guy that helped them write that book. Final Spin, let's face it. We don't know what's going to happen with Final Spin. People are unsure what Final Spin even is. Is it a book?

Is it a novel? Is it a poem? Is it a story? Is it a manuscript? We don't know what it is. Literature. Literature. There's no one that's going to try and pin it down.

I think it will create its own form of literature. You're going to want that first a dish. So pre-order that right now. You know that the publishers are like, well, you know. My publisher hears this, and they talk to me about it. So I need to do it more. Leadership Strategy and Tactics, Field Manual, the Code, the Evalues, The Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual,

Way the Warrior Kid 1, 2, 3, 4, Miking the Dragons, about faced by Hackworth, Extreme Ownership, and the dichotomy of leadership. These are all the books I've written thus far. Check them out. I have a leadership consultant, consulting company where we solve problems through leadership. Go to eschelonfront.com if you want to get some of that.

We have Extreme Ownership Academy. It's an online leadership training academy. I'm there two, three times a week answering your questions. So if you want to talk to me, you want to give me a scenario that you're in that you need help in, go to extremeownership.com, join the academy. We also have some live events. The next one is the muster in Phoenix, August 17th and 18th coming up. Then it's going to be Las Vegas, October 28th and 29th. Check out extreme ownership.com.

No, actually go to Eslamfront.com and go to events for that. All these things have sold out in the past. These are going to sell out too. So check them out. And if you want to help service members active and retired, their families, gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom. Mama Lee, she's got a charity organization. And if you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org. And if you want to get engaged with Hicks and Gracie, once again, Hickson.

Dot Academy is where you can learn his invisible jiu-jitsu. Hicksongracy.com. He's got a bunch of information on there as well. And he's on Facebook at Hickson Gracie. and he is on Instagram at Hickson Gracie, JJ. And by the way, Hickson is spelled with an R in case you're wondering. That's the Portuguese, Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation.

And if you happen to want more of my prolonged pontification or you need more of echoes obtuse orating, it's not obtuse. If you want more of echoes obtuse orating, you can find us on the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram, which Echo only calls the gram. And on that Facebook, Key, boy!

Echo is that Echo Charles? I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks once again to Hicks and Gracie and the Gracie family for giving us all the gift of jujitsu. And also, thanks to the Gracie family, I didn't mention this, but they've spent a lot of time

teaching our military, the art of jujitsu. Many of the graces have worked with the military over the years to improve our operational capability. It is much a pre-jitsu. And to those military folks that have taken those skills and use them to protect us Overseas, we thank you for that and the Gracie family has also helped much of law enforcement

And we hope that law enforcement further embraces Jiu-jitsu as a Highly beneficial thing that will help them in every aspect of what they do So thanks to the Gracie family for that and also thanks to our police law enforcement and Firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service and all first responders who put those skills to work to protect us here on the home front And now to everyone else out there Please no matter who you are no matter what you do no matter what you think no matter where you're from or where you are Do me and yourself a favor and go Jiu-Jitsu. It will make you healthier, smarter, stronger, more confident, more aware.

I mean, I could go on, but suffice to say, it will make you a better person. So go out there and get after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.