Jocko Podcast - 312: Black Hawk Down. Night Stalkers Never Quit. With Mike Durant

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

0:00:00 - Opening 0:05:15 - Mike Durant 3:05:47 - How to stay on THE PATH3:28:49 - Closing gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocco podcast number 312 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Something slammed into my helicopter. We didn't know what it was or where it had impacted, but the Hilo bucked hard like a small sports car going over a large speed bump. We'd been passing by the Olympic Hotel for the third time, doing 50 knots at about 75 feet when an RPG round rocketed into the tail section. but that was 35 feet behind me. The aircraft was 18,000 pounds of metal muscle,

and it certainly wasn't coming apart. At least not yet. I looked quickly around the cockpit while Ray did the same, both of us testing the controls and checking the gauges. Everything was in the green. No flight control problems, engine malfunctions, or weird noises. No one in my birds said a word. And then Super 6-4, you're hit bad.

It was Matthews up in the C-2 bird. You better put it on the ground. From his position high over the battle, he had seen the rocket impact just below my tail, raking pieces away and pinwheels as it detonated. No shit, I thought, as I rolled out of the turn. Just ahead, maybe a mile off was what appeared to be a clear area, certainly large enough to land a black hawk.

But the aircraft seemed to be full. I was facing the decision to crash in the middle of a firefight or fly just two more miles to the safety of the airfield I didn't hesitate or discuss it with anyone it was my decision to make we'd go for the field Still I kept my eye on that midway point it sort of looked like a city park which was what it had been long ago when the place was prosperous Now as we closed on it I could see that it was covered with tin shacks and huts But none of that mattered because of within a few seconds, the world went completely to hell. The RPG had smashed into the rear gearbox,

a fixture of the size of a big watermelon and full of oil and gears, where the drive shaft came in to have its speed and direction ratios altered for the tail rotor. The bottom of that box had been blown off. The drive shaft bent and twisted. I heard a rapidly accelerating whine and unearthly building scream and then the tail rotor assembly completely disintegrated into vapor with an ear splitting bang. The nose of the helicopter immediately started to spin to the right. The tail rotor on a black hawk counters the torque created by the main rotor system

and the pedals control the pitch of the tail rotor. As we pass through the first 90 degrees of rotation, I instinctively countered with the left pedal and I knew we'd lost it. I'll never forget looking down to make sure I was pushing the pedal and seeing my boot jammed all the way to the floor my body was reacting properly but my helo was not I keyed the mic 6 4's lost the tail rotor we're going in hard I looked over at Ray and said I guess we better pull them off I was referring to the engines because the only way to counter that spin was to shut them down and

eliminate the torque but just as the Black Hawk manual describes such an emergency If you don't kill the engines right away, the force will make it physically impossible to reach up for the power control levers. I'd always thought that sounded a little extreme. It wasn't. Super 6-4 started to spin so fast that the sky and ground became nothing but two blurred stripes of blue and brown in front of my eyes. It was like riding a merry-go-round looking straight out from the side of your horse while the teenage operator goes nuts and hauls it up to fire. 50 revs per minute. I was hurled against my harness, my hands desperately yanking and twisting the controls, and I looked over at Ray to see him fighting the force with every muscle, his gloved hands

quaking as he tried to reach up for the power levels. I knew I was going to die. And that right there is an excerpt from the book called In the Company of Heroes, which was written by retired chief Foreign Officer Michael J. Durant, who was a member of the legendary nightstalkers, and who was shot down during Operation Gothic Serpent and was held captive during the Battle of Mogadishu. That operation was documented in the book Black Hawk Down by author Mark Bowden, and the book was eventually adapted into the movie Black Hawk Down. but it is an honor tonight to have Mike Durant with us to discuss his lessons learned, his experiences from the Army, from the Nightstalkers, from Somalia, and beyond. Mike, thank you for joining us. My pleasure, Jocko.

Good to be here. It's a rough way to start off this podcast, I guess, putting you through those moments. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I wrote the book over 10 years ago, and I tried to go back and read it again a couple years back. And honestly, I just don't want to relive it. So it is kind of hard sometimes because those were pretty rough times. But I'm glad we got it all down on paper.

And it's certainly a story worth telling. All right. So I like to start at the beginning. So we're going to jump into a little bit of the childhood, where you came from, how you ended up being you. You're saying the book, as far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a helicopter pilot. Sure, other dreams flash by when you're a kid in a small New England town, firefighter, policemen, sports hero, brain surgeon.

I never had the brain surgeon one myself. Yeah, I think we made that up. I don't think I ever thought that. But the idea of flying for a living had always enthralled me the most. My father was a full-time first sergeant in the Army National Guard, and many my uncles and cousins served there as well, but I didn't have fantasies about flying off into battle and coming home a hero with a chest full of medals. I grew up during the Vietnam era when none of the kids. kids around me wanted anything to do with wearing a uniform. So it wasn't about patriotism or flag waving or anything like that. My feelings about duty, honor, and country would evolve over time.

But back then, the Army was just a way for me to get the best flight training without having to pay for it. I got to ask this question the other day. I was on the Special Operations Now has their own podcast. And they asked me, they set me up with this really nice question, you know, can you tell us about when you realized that service was going to be a part of your life and you wanting to be, you recognize that you wanted to be something bigger than yourself. I was like, hey, I appreciate you thinking I was like that when I was 17 years old, but I just wanted a machine gun. Right.

It's the same thing, you know, and I just tell it like it is. That's just, that's the reality. It was, you know, we were in a paper mill town and nothing against folks are working the mill, but that's it. I mean, you either, you're going to go have a career. working in the middle or you got to go find something somewhere else and when I found out the Army had a helicopter program and I could sign up and get trained to do it I'm like that's me and fortunate one that you know one of the guys that it worked out for yeah uh you say I was barely 17 when I sneaked off to a briefing at the local recruiting office the Army sales pitch was slick I'd be attending all these

advance and top secret training schools and have all sorts of incredible adventures and I swallowed it hook line and sinker I wanted to get into flight school right away, but the recruiter told me that was not possible. I would have to join up and then apply for flight school while in the service. Still, my test scores were pretty high and I was confident that I eventually would make it. College was not an option for me. I only wanted to fly. And I signed that commitment paper on October 25th, 1978. So you did that your junior year?

Let's see. So that would have been the fall of my senior year. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. A year later, shortly after my graduation of high school, I found myself in basic training. So you go to basic training. How's that?

Yeah. All those wonderful adventures all quickly become reality. No, it was, I think it, you know, for me, having grown up the way I did, it was a shock. I mean, it really was. Now, basic training, looking back now, compared to a lot of the other stuff that went on through through my career, there's probably nothing. But for a kid who, you know, didn't do a whole lot, had a couple of fairly easy jobs.

And, you know, it was a dramatic change of lifestyle. What sports did you play growing up in New Hampshire? Actually, mostly hockey. I played a little football. I was horrible at baseball. I don't know what the problem is. And then, you know, a lot of outdoor activity skiing, a lot of snow skiing, actually.

My dad was a big hunter and fisherman, so we did a lot of that. you know, his job other than being a National Guard, he actually was a surveyor for a forestry company, so he got out in the woods all the time. And for him, that was his dream job because he's a hunter, so now he can go recon where he's going to go hunting while he's getting paid to work for the paper company.

So it was a win-win for him. But the end result was a lot of time outdoors and awesome place to grow up. You know, northern New England is just a fantastic place. And, you know, every memory I have of it is a good. one. Yeah. I grew up in Connecticut and Maine. So, yeah, New England has a, has, definitely has a lot of nice things about it. That's for sure. Yeah. As soon as you get away from the cities. That is also for sure. Uh, so you end up going to DLI, defense language institute. How,

what did you just get a good score on the D lab or something? So, you know, the recruiter, like you just said, told me I couldn't go straight to flight school. And is that true or not? It's not. So you've heard the line, right? You know, in a recruiter's line because it's, the lips are moving. I mean, that's pretty much. They have a quota. They're trying to fill slots. You know, they're going to push you in that direction.

I guess they were just short Spanish voice intercept operators that particular day. So he convinced me. And, you know, I talked to a couple of folks and they said, they're going to send you to school for a year to learn a language. That's a great deal. You should take it. So I agreed and I did it. So you went to Spanish school. You get done with that.

And then what? Did you get stationed down in Panama after that? I did. Yeah. What were you doing, flying up and listening, listening in on comms? No, we actually had a station there. Actually, there were two. There were one on the east side and one on the west side.

And we were listening to comms throughout Central America. There's a gigantic antenna array, and we kind of sat right in the middle of it, and we just searched for communications. And my job was to find it, and then write a summary of what they were talking about. And then it would go to the analysts, and they would decide whether or not it was worth really documenting. So I'm recording it and I'm making notes basically. So it wasn't exactly the glamorous, you know, James Bond career that I thought it might

be as described. Yeah. And you start putting in for flight school as soon as you get there? Very soon afterward. I still remember, you know, I already wanted to fly. And I was on the beach one day. I mean, Panama is pretty nice place to be. Don't get me wrong.

It was a good assignment. And these two Hueys came low level right over the beach. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah, I forgot about that. I need to go pursue that because, you know, it's just there's something about, I don't know, helicopters, if you get involved in them, they get in your blood, you know, there's nothing better. And when I, when I had that moment on the beach, I said, I'm getting this going again. People don't realize now, you know, everything we do is on our phone, you know, go logging the Internet.

Back then, I mean, you're filling out forms and, you know, making copies and putting it in an envelope. So it was a little bit of an adventure applying for flight school from overseas. but I made it happen, I got accepted. What was like the acceptance rate? Was it hard to get accepted? I don't know if it was super hard. The hard part actually came in flight school. A lot of people washed out or, you know, again,

they're trying to get certain numbers through. So like our class started with 80 and we ended up graduating 40. Now they didn't all get washed out, but they got pushed back to other classes. Yeah. And that's like going right back into boot camp when you go to Fort Rocker, Alabama. as far as they're going to tighten you up.

Yeah, I mean, they shave your head again, and you know, you're doing square meals, and you got five minutes to eat, and, you know, they're yelling at you from the moment you wake up, they're inspecting your bed. But it's all, there's a purpose, and I'm sure some of it doesn't accomplish much, but a lot of the stuff, when you look back at it,

it's about attention to detail, right? I mean, if you're pre-flighted an aircraft or you're flying a mission, you've got to be focused on what you're doing. I mean, you know, you can't be, you know, off in La La Land. You got to be, you know, that's exactly two inches. It's supposed to be two inches.

Okay, it's good. Move on to the next thing, right? But, you know, at the time, you're like, why are they inspecting my bed? You know, it doesn't seem to make sense. But it weeds out the people that can't do that sort of thing. They don't have that discipline. So you start off in a TH55, which I thought was funny.

You say in the book, they had those things painted bright orange. Yes. Like, hey, stay away from this. student. Yes. Like student driver's side talk. Absolutely. Because they were named.

My roommate had a midair just to put in perspective. Yeah. I mean, we had, see, you solo with less than 10 hours in the aircraft. So can you imagine 10 hours of flight time and you're giving a helicopter, go take it around the pattern? Ooh. And he and another classmate crashed into each other because you're flying multiple runways that are parallel to each other. So they're like opposite direction in the pattern. and they both overshot, and they ran into each other.

Now, fortunately, it was minor damage, but again, you got seven, eight hours in a helicopter, and you suddenly had a mid-air, what do I do? One of them thought he had an engine failure, which is not even close to what the problem was. So he did what's called an auto-rotation, thinking, you know, but his engine's working fine. He just, but he got it on the ground somehow. How do you collide helicopters and not have a catastrophic event? It's your lucky day. I mean, go straight to Vegas.

because, I mean, they should have both been dead. And neither one of them actually even washed out. They kept, they stayed with the class. It was amazing. What part made contact? So the rotor blades of one impacted the landing gear and underneath of the other. So it like chopped part of the landing gear off and chop some antennas off. Okay, then I guess it makes sense.

Yeah. exciting times right out of the gate. And then you go from that bird to a Huey. Right. Did you think you were in nom when you were flying the heat? Huey. Actually, it feels like you're getting in the space shuttle. I mean, because, you know, it's like maybe you get into a Ferrari if you drive a Toyota every day. You know what I mean?

Just seems very advanced. There's just a lot of stuff in there. And then, of course, that happens again when I ultimately end up into Blackhawk. But, you know, each leap forward is, you know, there's a lot more systems to know and a lot more gauges. And it's just incredible, you know, the first time you fly it, it's like, wow, okay, I'm really here. This is where I wanted to go. And then you keep going beyond that. It seems like, again, from my rudimentary knowledge and from being in, you know, flying

around in a Huey, it seems like when you're in a Huey, you're in like a 1965 muscle car. And then when you go into a Black Hawk, you feel like you're in a brand new, you know, Tesla, like electronic everything. Is that accurate or am I just dumb? Oh, you're absolutely right. I have to be careful here because my wife is actually a Huey pilot. So I can't say any disparaging things about a Huey. It's a great Eric. She always jokes around and says, you know, the last,

when they fly the last Black Hawk to a museum and they fly the crew out, they'll fly that crew out with a Huey because it'll be around longer than the Black Hawk ever well. But no, you're right. It just seems, I have a picture of the first flight I took in a Black Ark from behind. And, you know, it has digital gauges and things like that that. that you just don't have in those legacy aircraft. They're all steam gauges or needles. So, you know, again, it's like flying a spaceship.

I mean, it really, it's intimidating at first, but after a while, it's just an extension of yourself. And then what was your, so you get qualified in the Black Hawk, and then you go, you end up getting stationed open to Korea to be a Medevac pilot. Right. And when I first got that assignment, I'm like, Medevac, you know, I don't want to go fly Medevac. I want to be, you know, in 101st or,

you know, one of the real, you know, go-to-war kind of units. But in the end, being in Medevac was the best assignment I could get because you're by yourself. You're constantly flying, single-ship missions. You graduate to pilot and command status very quickly. So you start being forced into that decision-making process and, you know, owning it and the responsibility and all those things that go along with being in charge of something. Whereas if you go to a more traditional unit, you're just kind of a duck in a row. You're not doing a lot of things on your own.

You don't have a lot of decision making put on you. And I flew a lot. We flew a ton in that unit. And as a brand new pilot, you need those two things. You need experience, you know, moving the sticks around. And you need to be put in situations where you have to make decisions. That really helps you grow. And you've got life and death situations happening because you're going to pick up guys

that are injured in training operations and what have you. And I haven't said this yet, but obviously I'm not reading this whole book right now. You know, there's so much detail. And you talk about the lessons you learned there. That's some of the stuff that's in the book. The book's incredible for all kinds of lessons. Incredible storytelling. And that's what you talk about.

Some of those situations that you were in where you had people's lives on the line and you're making decisions as a young Warren officer flying those birds. Definitely a lot of lessons learned there. Absolutely. I look back, I mean, I was 22. And I look at, you know, I've got kids that are much older than that. And I'm like, I'm not sure that I would put them in that responsibility, nothing against them. It's just, you know, you think about how green you are.

You know, I mean, that's fairly young to be taking on that kind of responsibility. But that's how you evolve and become what you really can be. If you don't push the limit, you're not ever going to get where you might go. So you do that, you do the medevac for two years in Korea? Yeah, it's a one-year tour, but I was getting so much flight time and I liked it there so much. I said, hey, I'll stay longer. So I extended my tour, not quite two years, but almost. And from there, you head back to Fort Campbell.

When you're there, I'm going to go to the book here. January, 1986, I reported back to Fort Campbell. And with another pilot from my Medevac unit in Korea, bought a house off base. I remember it well because as I was unpacking gear, the television was on, and I stood there open mouth watching the explosion, the space shuttle. Challenger.

It was a national tragedy, but considering how long the space program had gone without a fatal mishap, I wasn't at all surprised. It's a reminder that if you spend your career in the air, you can't get complacent. The next day, I was ready and rearing to audition for the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. How would you heard about the nightstalkers prior to this? So they were still kind of undercover at that. Undercover is not really the right word, but not really spoken about public.

I'm publicly, certainly not by the military. I actually heard about him in a bar in Korea. Some guy talking about, hey, they get this unit, you know. And I'd read Tom Clancy books. I mean, I was, you know, very intrigued by that sort of thing. Never really been exposed to the real world part of it, but knew it all existed and thought, you know, that could be the next level for me, you know.

And as soon as I heard about it, I was very, very intrigued. And I thought, yeah, I'd like to end up there someday. and, you know, naive at the time in terms of what it would take to get there. But that's when the seed was planted. And it was almost like a little mix-up when you went there because you went and you signed into the 101st and sort of checked on board. And once you checked on board, the guys at the 160th were like, you already checked on board with the 101st.

Sorry. Right. My orders were to the 101st. I signed in. And at that point, they got their claws on me and I can't get out of it. in the end, good things in life happen and they end up being good even though it's not what you wanted to have happened, but I got more experience. Went to the instructor pilot course, you know, got a bunch of night vision goggle time, all things that really helped before you make that leap to the soft world. And so then you spend that time at the 101st and you're, are you figuring out more about the night stalkers at this time?

You learning more? Yeah, so that's when I run across Clay Huttmark. who I know you know. And he actually at the time when I first met him was a W-2. So he had been a Marine, I think you know the story. Then he was a W-2 when I met him. And then he got commissioned as a second lieutenant and ultimately retires a two-star general.

So he just couldn't hold a job. I don't know what the problem was. But when I met him, he, you know, he knew about the unit. And in fact, he had gotten into the unit and brought me over there to look at the aircraft. So not only is now the mission seem, you know, very full of intrigue.

But the aircraft themselves have got this sexy equipment on board that I didn't even know existed. I mean, we had forward-looking infrared systems. I mean, this is 1988. Most people didn't know Fleer even existed, you know. And it's already on the aircraft. They've already got it. They have a digital cockpit. I mean, it was very rudimentary from today's standards.

But again, you know, this is just stuff that was unheard of. And I'm thinking, so it's a super cool mission. flying for these super cool customers with these super cool aircraft, I got to figure out how to get over here. So that just kind of amp me up a little bit more, actually. And then what was the selection process once you got over to the 160th? So I actually ended up being in the first formal green platoon that the unit ever did. Before my class, you'd basically just get assigned to a company. And then your green platoon was informal. You did kind of the same things, but it wasn't a class and you know modeled somewhat after buds and some of the other training courses

the unit realized we need a we need a dedicated course to get people through because there's too much of a burden on the unit the unit needs to be focused on executing you know missions and training the at the unit level the training of new people should be done by a dedicated training organization so they created this you know green platoon as it's called now and it includes you know all the typical stuff the land nav physical fitness, swim test, psychiavel, a lot of flying, you know, life-saving, shooting, you know, not at the level that you went through, but, you know, our focus is more on the aviation part,

but you get a fair amount of all that other stuff just so, you know, if you end up in a situation where you're not a pilot anymore, you're on the ground, you're at least not a burden to the ground for us. You can do something besides you just sit there and say, you know, help get me home, you know. So I think that's the main idea. You know, you can do some life-saving stuff, you can shoot a weapon, that sort of thing. And it lasted, I'm thinking it lasted nine months. So, I mean, it's a pretty long time. A lot of flying.

And that's, the flying is usually what ends up weeding people out because, and I think this is still the case today. The, the philosophy was, yeah, global positioning system is great, but when it goes down, you still got to be able to get your customers on the target. So we really focused heavily on land nav with a map, you know, planning, drawing lines on a app and being able to hit that target even if your systems go down. And that's hard to do because especially when you start relying on the technology, because then it's like getting over here today.

You know, I didn't even think about where I was going. I hit Uber, put the address in. You know, I'd even know how long it would take until I punched all that stuff in. But if you rely too heavily on that, you know, and things really matter, like, you know, getting soft operators on a target, you've got to be able to do it no matter what. So there's a lot of focus on that manual. stuff. And some people just aren't very adept at that. And I'm not a great navigator. I know some great navigators. I mean, these guys, the map, like it jumps out at them. They, they see it different

than I see it. For me, it's a bunch of lines. And if it's not an interstate highway or major body of water, I can't identify it all that well. But these other guys are just unbelievable. And so you always want to be paired with one of those guys because they can help you. But, I mean, I do it obviously well enough because I made it through the training. But it, It was just fantastic. You learn all the special mission to quit me, you know, like things like fast rope. At the time, the Army didn't do fast ropes. I don't know they'd do it widespread even today.

So you've got to learn how to do that. You got to learn, you know, just all these different things that you learned that you didn't learn in your previous experience is all part of Greenbeltune. So when you show up, you're at least a co-pilot. You're ready to jump in and serve that co-pilot position. And just to give people some background, because we're kind of talking about it, because you and I know about it, but you say in the book here, to clarify what the 160th is, which is their nickname, their call sign is the nightstalkers. You say this, the nightstalkers were strictly a special operations outfit.

They had the best helicopters, the latest equipment, and an unlimited acquisition budget. They flew mostly at night using the latest technology, night vision devices, deep behind enemy lines, racing just above sand dunes, ocean waves, or jungle canopies to deliver special ops teams. Their missions were hostage rescues, snatching grabs of bad guys, even liberations of enemy equipment. Their customers were the elite of the elite and strictly classified, meaning Navy SEALs, Army Rangers, or other special mission units. The existence of the Nightstalkers was officially denied, and their pilots had reputations as the James Bond's of the community. If a mission was regarded as impossible, the nightstalkers would get it.

And impossible had always been seductive to me. So that's a little bit of what the nightstalkers do, what their mission is, what their mission said is. So you end up, obviously you get there. I'm going to fast forward through the book a little bit, pass some of those experiences. And here we go. On Sunday, December 17th, I was. packing up bathing suits and sun tan lotion at my house in Clarksville when my pageer beaped and hummed. At the time, Clay Hotmacher had become my platoon leader, but he was already more than that.

Clay lived right above Lori and me in our two-family house, so he'd spent a lot of time together on and off base. He was my boss, but he was also my friend. I called into Fort Campbell, and he picked up on the first ring. Hotmacher, Durant, come on in. Roger that. I did not experience even a twinge of surprise, and I quickly switched my vacation suitcase for my combat duffle. Like many special operators, I was a news junkie, watching and listening international flare-ups the way stockbrokers scanned the ticks in the market. I knew that Manuel Noriega had already pushed the United States over the edge. On Saturday night, four young officers had been driving downtown in Panama City in the search of the perfect pizza. Outside Noriega's military headquarters, they had been stopped at a PDF roadblock.

When members of the national, the police began beating on the car with batons and hauling the, hauling on the door handles, the young Americans concluded that they were about to disappear into one of Noriega's notorious dungeons forever. The driver hit the gas pedal as the Panamanians opened fire, killing Marine First Lieutenant Robert Paz. It hadn't ended there. An American Navy lieutenant Adam Curtis had witnessed the shooting incident along with his wife Both of them were dragged off for interrogations While Mrs. Curtis was forced to assume the position against a prison cell wall and repeatedly threatened with rape Her husband was gagged pistol whipped and kicked in the groin right in front of her

This had gone on for four hours until the battered young couple was released to collapse into a public street Noriega's message had been clearly received in Washington, come and get me, gringos. So that's what you're getting called in for. And an interesting side note here, the officer, the Navy officer that you talk about here, Adam Curtis, he was actually a seal. And I worked with him. He was my task unit commander in a platoon, and I think it was 1995. So five or six years after this happened, he was my, Yeah, he was my task unit commander. Interesting.

It is a small world, especially in the soft world. So talk to us a little bit about Panama and what you did there. You know, I've said multiple times lately as I've talked about, you know, my background and everyone knows me by Black Hawk Down, you know, one day in a 22-year career. And if I could pick what people knew me by, I'd actually probably pick Just Cause because when you think about what we trained for at the macro level, I mean, there was a hostage rescue on that mission, there was an airfield takedown on that mission, Seals-disabled airplanes that Torrijos was going to, or Noriega was going to try to get out on. There was the largest airborne drop since Vietnam down at Rio Hado. Apache's got used for the first time, F-117 got used

for the first time. I mean, it was, this was about as complicated and up as it get. And it was, it all went down in like 36 hours. I mean, that moment you just described when I'm in my living room, we're launching on H hour a day and a half later at 1 o'clock in the morning. I still remember looking at Donovan Bradley, who I flew with on that mission, he ends up, Donovan loses his life in Somalia. Like, is this real?

Because, you know, we've been to prime chance, which was technically a, combat off, but no hostilities really when we were there when I was there. Where was prime chance? In the Persian Gulf. The Iranians were mining the- Okay, on the barges and whatnot. So we lived on the barges and that's actually the first time that night vision goggles were used in combat. One of the the guys from the 160th, little bird guy shot a boghammer that was dropping mines into the sea and used a flichette, actually. And one of the Iranians, after they captured him, He's still got a flichette in his cheek. So obviously, Brown's on target.

But, you know, for Donovan and I, at 1 o'clock in the morning, flying on this mission with two Apaches to go down to Rio Hado to support this airfield seizure, I mean, we're sort of in disbelief, you know, because how many times you get spun up and spun out, you know? We're going to go, we're going to go, we're going to go, and then, no, we're not going. And then that 2,000-pound bomb goes off at precisely one-A. You know, we all bash our, the other services, you know, they're nowhere near as good as us, but I will give the Air Force credit.

That bomb hit precisely at 1 o'clock in the morning, and it was a pretty big splash. I mean, 2,000-pound bomb makes a heck of a flash in the middle of night. So at that point, we realize, you know, this is real. But over the next, you know, several days, you know, just amazing missions, just complete success, highly complex op, and just that to me was the ultimate special operations mission. Just so many facets, all done well. Now we took some losses. You know, we lost a couple of pilots in a firefight in Cologne, daytime.

You know, that's always when we end up in trouble. We're in close, trying to take on people that you can't see. There's a lot of ways to shoot a helicopter down, and unfortunately this little bird got shot down a couple of days later and both pilots were killed. But overall, just an incredible mission. And, you know, ultimately we do end up getting Manuel Noriega and he gets flown out actually by Cliff Walcott

who was flying with Donovan Briley in Somalia when he lost his life. So they were all one, you know, just one band of brothers, you know, and being able to participate in those kind of ops. And I actually ended up supporting seals on the Cologne side. That was my mission. We were, you know, trying to find Noriega. We called it the hunt for Elvis, you know, because there were Elvis sightings all over the place. You know, people would call it and say, yeah, he's over here.

And we'd go, it wasn't quite that, you know, helter-skelter. But there were several missions where we thought, okay, this is legit intel. You know, it's legitimate enough to launch and we would take a place down and he was never there. But finally, you know, as most people know, we found him hiding. and he eventually gave up and we flew him out. What was the total time that you spent down there? Well, oddly enough, I departed early because I had to go teach Green Platoon. I had got to the point in the unit where I was now teaching others, scary, scary thought.

But I had to go back and start the training. You know, things were starting to wind down. I think Noriega had been located and the number of direct action missions was scaling back. You know, we had control of the whole country, so there wasn't any need. to really, you know, keep flying as many missions that we had been flying. So the commander decided, hey, go back, teach Queen platoon. So I was only there probably a week. I mean, you know, to get all that done in a week, that's why I say,

if there was something I could be known for, I wish it was that mission because it really was amazing. But that is just a footnote in history for most of us. Yeah, well, the good thing is in the book, you go through a lot of those details, talk about what those missions were like. Yeah, it's really good for me to read it because I only, ever got debriefed on like what the SEAL specifically did.

So it was very cool to hear from your perspective and see what a bunch of the other units including, you know, your unit. Right. Good to see. By the way, I wanted to say something. And if I forget to say it, I really appreciate how complimentary you were in extreme ownership about the conventional army units that you work with. Because, you know, a lot of times we, at least in my era, there wasn't a lot of combat

experience. So for us, the special ops guys kind of looked down on those, and that was wrong. And I always felt, you know, after the fact that it was immaturity on my part to kind of look at them that way because they just didn't have the experience. They just hadn't done it, you know. But, you know, to hear your perspective on, you know, battle-hardened conventional units out there kicking ass just like everybody else, I was just really appreciate that. That was good stuff.

Well, I'd love to take some kind of credit for that. But when we were lucky enough to be in those situations where, I mean, I would just work side by side with those guys and and there was just no doubt in their in their professionalism in their bravery and it was it was an honor to be able to serve alongside them and not even just active duty army and marine corps but you know when we got to ramadi in 2006 it was a national guard national guard on the ground and they were they were doing an incredible job taking the fight to the enemy and and they you know i told colonel gronski he came on this podcast 100 percent my Some of my guys are alive because the lessons that we learned from the National Guard when we showed up there and then when the 1 1aD showed up 100% some of my guys are alive because when we called they came the 1 1 1 AD whatever battalion came and there was multiple over and over again. So we owe so much to those guys and we won't ever forget them. But I think you're right. You know when I was in the SEAL teams in the 90s, you know, we definitely were I think.

partially just ignorant and and and partially arrogant right well they just they hadn't been to war so you know in our minds we're the we're the we're the real world guys and they're just practicing right right but they they and you think about national guard in particular i mean most national guard unions had not deployed you know prior to 9-11 for decades yeah yeah to know that they ramped up like that's amazing they did indeed it's a tribute it's a testament to the american warfighter Fast forward a little bit more, you end up in the first Gulf War. Right. You say here, the war had been ramping up since the Iraqis invaded Kuwait in August.

Those of us who had been invited were pleased to be there. No one was happier about it than Cliff Walcott. His innovative concept, the direct action penetrator, configuration of the Black Hawk, which had missed the party in Panama, was finally going to see some action. However, while Charlie Company and its DAPs, that's the direct action penetrator, had drawn us the assignment to provide four of the gunships for scud hunting.

They didn't have enough qualified pilots for this operation. So five of us from Delta Company myself, Cliff, Clay, Hotmacher, Eddie Mole, and Stan Wood have been called upon to complete the package. So this is kind of a new deal. The outfitted these Blackhawks with more weapon systems so they could bring some firepower, more firepower. Right. You know, the unit doesn't have Apache.

So what we were trying to do is provide Apache. like capability, but not have to have a dedicated platform. Because that's the issue, right? If you can only put so many birds on a C5, if you could put one on there that could do both the attack mission and the assault mission, that gives the ground force commander a lot more opportunity to, you know, to react. So it was a brilliant idea. And I'm actually shocked that it hasn't going to take on more of a life, certainly with

international Blackhawk operators, because it's essentially two for one. I mean, you're getting an attack helicopter and an assault helicopter. And having been there on day one when this whole concept was put together, and Cliff was the godfather. I mean, he was a cobra guy. And he just, you know, from the moment he started flying Blackhawks, I think I got to figure out to put guns on this thing. You know, this is a waste of my time.

And we finally did it today. I mean, the thing has got, I mean, it looks like a EC-130. I mean, it's got stuff all over the place. Yeah. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit here. You're out on an operation, your scud hunting. Zulu 3-2. This is Charlie 7, Charlie 4-7.

It was Lieutenant Colonel Doug Brown, battalion commander of the 1st Battalion of the 160th, making contact from the jock in Arar. Roger 4-7, I answered, go ahead. I have a mission change for you, 3-2. He said, Colonel Brown's voice was usually cold as ice water, but on this night he actually sounded a little keyed up. Copy these coordinates. Roger that, I said.

And as Lance continued the lazy orbit over the activities below, I repeated the coordinates back to Brown. You are cleared direct to the target, 3-2, the colonel ordered. Target is a possible... And you couldn't hear him. Transmission and broken up on the last word. 4-7, I said, say again all after coordinate. Roger that, Brown answered.

I say again, it is possible... And the sacked com failed again. I fumed. I keyed the mic button once more. 4.7, you are breaking up. Please spell all after. And he said, Sierra, Charlie Uniform, Delta. Brown growled.

And then you knew it was a scud. And again, this is interesting because the individual that you're talking about, Lieutenant Colonel Doug Brown, ended up being the four-star so-com commander in charge of all special operations. And when he was in that job, I was actually the Admiral's aide for Admiral Joe McGuire. And we would see General Brown all the time and did a bunch of trips with him and got to know him. Just what a great guy he was as well.

He really is. And yeah, you know, you say he's usually cold as Icewater. He's super, I mean, just super unemotional, very, very calm, laid back. And here you are, have this opportunity to get these scuds. and so I got to tell you it just reminded me I'm actually writing this down

on my kneeboard because we have a kneeboard and you know he sent the coordinates I got to write those down and then he's I'm trying to figure out what the heck is he saying

and then he does it phonetically and I still remember S C and it's like a game show you know oh yeah I got it Scud for $100

but the first one that you went to go attack, your weapons didn't work, right? Yes. Talk us through that. That's got to be just a little bit frustrating. The scuds at the time, because I was in the Navy now, but the scuds were this huge threat. Like this was the major threat that they had.

They could arm them with chemical weapons. It was this, that was the big focus. You heard all the news all the time was scuds, scud, scud, scud, scud, scud, we got to get these scuds. We got to stop these scuds. And they had launched scuds. And so here you are, you finally get one of these scuds, and you got your new aircraft with all of its weapons on it, and you roll in to shoot that thing.

What happens? Nothing. My powder got wet. I don't know what happened. No, we know what happened. So I'm flying, and I push the trigger, and nothing happens. And I come around again, and I'm flying with Lance Hill, who you mentioned a moment ago.

and I'm like check the switches. So he checks the switches because, you know, there's a lot of stuff you got to do and you can do something incorrectly and it's not armed technically. And I come around again, I push the trigger. Still nothing. What are you trying to engage with? So all we had was mini guns, 7.62, which are formidable. But, you know, I mean, that's not a typical attack helicopter weapon.

But we used them in a fixed forward mode. So you're diving fire on the target. And then rockets. I mean, so normally our profile would be you start shooting the mini first and then you fire. Now, the rockets, they're free-flying aerial rockets, F-F-FAR. So they're not guided. And they come out of the tube moving kind of slow. So they're hard to hit, you know, a precise target weapon.

So we always use the minigone first. And then we'd follow that with rockets once we knew, you know, we were kind of aligned on the target. And if you did it enough, you got pretty good at it. you could hit a point target like a vehicle fairly often, not every time. So I'm trying to hit, you know, obviously minigun first, and then I'm going to go to rockets, and I try them both, and neither one works. So I look at Lance, and I said, Lance, it's one effing switch. Arm it, you know, I figured it had to be him, you know.

It can't be the aircraft. So when we come around again, it still doesn't work. I mean, I'm so upset. It's like, equated to if you're a hunter, this is the biggest buck you've ever seen in your life. It's the biggest buck. The entire nation is wanting you to hunt this buck and get this buck. And he's standing there just chewing, you know, stationary broadside. And you can't shoot.

I mean, it was unreal. I got so upset, again, you know, should I have been? Probably not. But I think I said something like, I'm crashing this freaking aircraft into the ground. Yeah, you're going kamikaze mode. That's what you're saying, the book. I just was that upset. And unfortunately, you know, we're in a flight of two aircraft.

So the other aircraft is just making these same orbits and shooting. And not only is it that I can't shoot, but I'm watching him shoot, and he can't shoot nearly as good as me. And he's not even hitting the target, so he's making me more furious. But in the end, you know, no damage done. There's some speculation that they were actually decoys. I don't know if you were going to mention that later, but which it didn't really matter.

I mean, you know, we want to blow the shit out of this thing no matter whether it's a decoy or not. And that was a long flight home. I mean, that was a painful flight home. And, of course, you know, all your buds, what do they think, right? Oh, yeah. You dorked it up.

Yeah, yeah. There's nothing wrong with that aircraft. You know, you guys screwed it up. What was wrong with the aircraft? There was some little technical problem. Yeah, I mean, we sort of threw this thing together. I mean, it hadn't been through rigorous testing or anything like that.

And it was an electronic component that was overheating and failing after being turned on for two hours. And we just didn't know because we'd never flown long missions with it before. We'd always crank up, turn it on, go shoot. Worked fine. But if you flew for two hours, it overheated and didn't work anymore. Eventually, you guys did get a scud. They talk about that in there. You talk about that in there.

The war ended over pretty quick, obviously. But at the same time, much like in Panama, the Hilo went down. You lost Mike Anderson and Chuck Cooper, Chris Chapman and Mario Vega Velazquez and another special operator. And they went down, lost those guys. You get done with that, and then it's redeploy back to America

after that one. You got, I mean, going in the 90s, 80s and 90s, getting like real world experience in both Panama and then going over to the Persian Gulf, that's freaking legit for back then. Oh, it was. That's why we were arrogant. You know, I mean, that was the unfortunate effect of all that. Because even in the unit, there were guys that just didn't end up on the rotation. So they don't have, they might have been there 15 years, but they don't have the combat experience. that that was painful for that oh man yeah i that's that's a nightmare yeah that's a i got very very

lucky my whole career i got very very lucky my whole career and i i was always on the the lucky side not the unlucky side you know standing around going i wish i would have been there for that not including the first golf war which i missed because i was still in training um but yeah that had to be an interesting uh dynamic in the locker room i know the uh the vietnamese guys. So we used to call new guys. If you hadn't been on deployment, then you were a new guy.

And as soon as you went on your first deployment, didn't really matter where you went, then you weren't a new guy anymore. But the Vietnam guys, unless you were in combat, you were a new guy. So you could have been a new guy in their mind for 10 years.

Your whole career. Cherry boy. Right. They would bring it to some of those old Vietnam guys. All right. I'm going to fast forward a little bit. Somalia. October 3rd 1993

It was a perfect day for prayer a bright and tranquil Sunday morning the skies and seas were polished blue soft winds bore Seville silver edged clouds and the coastal sands gleamed white like ribbons of salt It would have been easy to believe it in some sort of heavenly power But for the most of us in task force ranger the helicopter pilots and our crews the eager young rangers and the squint-eyed special forces the muscled armors and the muscled armors and the muscleed armors and the muscleed armors and the muscleed and Wiz kid intelligence analysts, these autumn mornings in Mogadishu all ran together. A Sabbath day felt hardly different than any other bleeding into the workweek like the steamy, bleached hues of the African vista.

Sure, a few guys knelt before the army chaplain with heads bowed, praying for salvation. The rest of us prayed for another mission. How long had you been in a small at that point? So we got there at the end of August. So we've been there about six weeks. weeks, I think. And what was your op tempo like? Pretty heavy. I mean, we flew most of the time we're flying every day, every night. Now, it wasn't ops every time. We were flying these things called signature flights because we're trying to desensitize the enemy, you know, because obviously

if you're the bad guys and you're watching an airfield and a flight of 25 helicopters takes off, that's a clue, right? But if you fly on every day and every night, then they become sort of more oblivious to it and that was the theory. So, and then, you know, a lot of the operator guys wanted to see the city from the air. And, you know, the more you fly around an area, the more familiar you get. So you're more likely to get on target the way you need to. So all that combined meant we were flying just about every day and every night. Going into three October when you, how often would you conduct an actual mission, like a hit?

So October 3rd is my eighth real. in six weeks. How often were the guys getting contacted on these previous operations, like enemy contact, firefighters and whatnot? It started to ramp up. On the first couple, nothing, because we had the element of surprise. But after the first few, like on, I think it's Mission 5, we're trying to capture the number two guy,

a guy named Osmanado, and a daytime mission again. and we're going into the compound where he was. He was actually there. And RPGs are exploding in the air as we're on the way in. And there was enough firefighting going on on the ground that we actually didn't go back into the compound to pull the operators out. We went to an alternate pickup zone

because it was just too hot. So, you know, I would say about halfway into the sequence, the Somali started to get a little bit more belligerent. You know, plus the big difference is if you hit a target at 2 o'clock in the morning, you're in and out, you're probably not going to get a whole lot. But if you go in the daytime, when everybody's up and around, that's when you tend to get in a little bit more of a scrape,

and that's kind of how it played out. Yeah, I was trying to get a feel for, you know, like I only did two deployments to Iraq, but, you know, my first deployment, obviously those were my first real missions. And like the mindset of how long it took to where we, as a platoon, felt like, yeah, this is what we're doing. Sort of like this is our job.

This is, I don't want to say mechanical, but we just were well rehearsed and we just, we were just doing our job. And it was like doing any other job. It didn't take that long, you know, because we were doing a lot of operations. We were basically going out almost every night and doing another hit, another hit, another hit. So you do that five, six, eight times. All right, what's the next target? And you kind of get in that mode.

And it sounds like you were, you all were getting, getting in that mode where this is what we're doing. We know how to do it. Lessons were being learned and you make little adjustments and you were there. Yeah, I think we got there pretty quick because we'd rehearse quite a bit back at Fort Bragg. I mean, we had role players and compounds built and all kinds of stuff for, you know, what we thought it was going to be once we got there. Some of that was on target. Some of it was not. But by the time we actually deployed, we were, we had it pretty well down.

Fast forward a little bit. In the bustling jock, the mission was developing very rapidly. We couldn't wait to see if our targets would just hang around, drinking tea and bullshitting about women and weather. We couldn't hope to have a CIA asset wander into. to the target building snap a covert photo of the party and hustle back out with a 100% confirmation we had to go on information and belief and faith but in a special ops environment no element leader can afford to be shy about offering solutions or raising dilemmas I was a combat vampire who loved the night but I held my piece about the risk of a daylight

because there was no other option yet a number of other officers quickly voiced issues to a background score of distant helo turbines winding up and desert combat boots thumping across the tarmac like heavy hail sir someone said to general garrison i've got some exfail issues what's on your mind okay air exfiltration is not an option so we're forced to use the ground convoy but i think we might wrap it up long before the vehicles are in position we'll be there when you're ready said colonel night his lightly armored humvies and five-ton trucks were already assembled to move to a rendezvous point near the Olympic hotel I wondered if the hotel had a single client this year or ever But that but the place is nasty with skinnies today someone else said using the nickname for hostile Somalis

We might get boxed in on the return Exfiel by errors a negative another pilot stated firmly the plan called for the heloes to hover at about 30 feet uncoil fast ropes and let the D-boys and rangers slide down them like firemen on slick poles. But there was nowhere to land our choppers and pick them up. We could do a rooftop extraction, but like we saw on the last mission, hovering up there, like sitting ducks, makes us very vulnerable to RPG gunners. And there's an antenna tower on the target building.

An SF officer jabbed at a video monitor with his gloved finger. We'd have to blow it before the heloes came back in and it'll take time. Don't sweat it, boys, McKnight said to his ranger officers, your convoy will be there. And if it's not, Garrison Grinned around his cigar stub, the heloes will come in and pull your asses out like they always do. And that was it. We'd been there for all of 10 minutes. Was this like a TST, time sensitive target, where it came up real quick?

Yeah. In fact, we were planning a training op. We were going to go shoot because we had the DAPs there, but we hadn't used them yet. And, you know, ammunition gets old. At least that's what we told the commander. It's like beer in the fridge. You know, if you don't consume it, it's going to go bad.

So we were going to do some shooting. and that's why I was in the jock. We were planning that flight. And this thing developed so fast. I actually didn't have time to go back to my bunk and get my kneeboard. I just went without it because we've flown this thing so many times I didn't need it anyway. But yeah, so from the time we found out that, you know, these personnel were identified to off the ground was, you know, definitely less than an hour, maybe 40 minutes to get the whole entourage up and going, crank all those birds and brief everybody. I mean, it seems like a lot of time.

That's not a lot of time. No, that's not a lot of time at all. The, you were, the daytime portion of it, the fact that you were going out in the day, you say you like going out in the night. But it was the target that was driving you to do this during the day. They were there. You had a pretty good confirmation, not 100% like you said in the book, but a pretty decent confirmation. And that's it.

They're there. We're going to go get him. Yeah. I mean, there was a guy on the ground, and he, gave the signal that meant, you know, positive ID. And at that point, your decision is, you know, we take the risk and go, or we wait, and then they move and we lose them. And that's, you know, that's a commander's decision.

I don't question it. I probably would have made the same call. But, you know, unfortunately, it's 3 o'clock in the afternoon. And we can't use, you know, the advantage that we have with all of our night vision technology. Yeah, it's a crazy advantage. It's a crazy advantage. I know we did a lot of daytime operative. My second deployment did a lot of daytime operations.

My first deployment, we did limited daytime operations for that very reasons. We go at 2 o'clock in the morning. There's no no factor, no resistance. But sometimes same exact thing. We'd get, hey, this guy is here now in this market, in this village, in this building. We just, we would go. So there's definitely an elevated risk during the day. And the tactical advantage that you have at night can't be, cannot be

understated at all. Right. Actually, there were four risks. I talk about these all the time because I was a flight lead. So that means I'm in, I'm actually in the planning, you know, and the final decision-making process with General Garrison and all the element commanders. And the four risks, at least from a helo perspective, I identified as, you know, first to foremost, daytime.

Second one, we can't land the helo's like you just talked about. So we have to fast rope in and we can't do an easy extraction. The third one is that we've done. done this six times before. And the fourth one is it's in the worst part of the city. This is right where all the bad guys hang out. They call it the Black Sea area. So all four of those things were identified and people asked me, because there was a lot of criticism after the fact, you know, should have gone, shouldn't have gone. But, you know, when you're in the moment, it's like, I often use quarterbacks as an example. It's easy to criticize that quarterback for throwing that

interception. But when you're in the moment and that receiver's open and, you know, there's a lot on the line is stirred down, you know, you need a touchdown bad, and you throw that ball, you can't, you can't criticize that decision. I mean, that decision was made in the moment, and you don't know, you know, that the receiver is going to fall because he slipped on a slick piece of grass. You know, you're making a decision based on what you know at the time, and I would never criticize General Garrison for making that call. And I always tell people, none of us felt great, but I think we all felt comfortable enough. We went out there saying, and all right, you know, this is not going to be probably like most of the other ones,

but we're comfortable enough. And you had done a daytime operation, other daytime operations. We had. And so you had thrown those passes before, and they were caught by the receiver like you intended. And hey, we're going to do it again because we've done it before. Hindsight is always 2020. Yeah. And again, you've got to buy this book because there's more details in there.

Obviously, I'm not covering the whole thing. I'm fast-more in a little bit here. The Rangers and the Delta Force guys being inserted. And here's your perspective. I brought Super 6-4 in as low as possible to a 20-foot hover using a utility pole straight down through the chin bubble as my reference. Ropes, I called over the intercom. My crew chiefs Tommy Abil echoed me loud and the thick green hawsers were deployed.

It was a well-rehearsed routine. All I had to do is keep it steady, holding the forward left box position with chalk two right behind me chalk three a beam to the right and chalk four right behind him but the pilot of the last chopper super six seven had been flying C-two bird until today just up there boring holes in the sky and this was his first encounter with the brown monster the dust cloud was more than a hundred feet high and he felt his way down to it like a waiter tiptoeing into an ice cold lake he deployed his ropes to or and they were only 30 feet long.

A ranger went out his door, lost his grip on the rope, and fell into oblivion. It was right there and then that the mission started to unravel, like the hem of an old sweater as you tug on one loose strand. But I didn't know any of that at the time.

I was having problems of my own. Right ropes hung up on a wire. It was Bill's voice in my ear, dead calm and steady telling me we'd snagged on probably the last telephone wire still intact in Mogadishu. of all the damn phone lines in the city, I thought. Forward 10. Bill offered a correction as he peered down past his minigun at the snared hosser,

and I carefully nudged the helo forward. Hold, he sang. I could tell by his tone that the rope was dangling straight and free, and I held it steady while our 18 Rangers leap for the lines like comic book heroes. I could hear Steele's chalk leader barking, go, go, go, and the butt plates of M16s and M60 light machine guns scraping and banging against my floor as the troops dove into the dust storm. Within seconds, they were all gone.

Good luck, guys. I whispered as Bill and Tommy tripped the releases and the ropes fell from their mounts like limp cobras. None of us had a clue that those young rangers were in for the fight of their lives. Roaps clear, Tommy announced, and I hauled the helo into a rising left bank as I keyed my mic.

Super 6-4 is out. And that was it. I thought it was over. You go out into a holding pattern now. And like other operations that you've gone on, that's, you go out in your holding pattern, everyone, the boys on the ground do what the boys on the ground do. Didn't take them very long.

It seemed that they were getting the target secured, getting the principles, you know, taken, getting them controlled, getting them blindfolded, getting them cuffed. That ranger that had fallen, he was critically injured. On top of that, you learn that they weren't near their designated,

area either. And I was watching some video. That brownout situation was great. I've been in a ton of brownout. I guess it was because it was in the city brownout. Is that what made it worse? Yeah. Because if you land in the desert,

there's a technique that we learn where you almost land like an airplane. You come down and you get a little bit of ground roll and you stay ahead of the cloud. But you can't do that in the city. I mean, you're in it. Yeah. So you got to find some kind of reference.

And like I was talking about, my reference was there was a pole right there. And that's about all I could see. But at least it was enough to maintain the position. But, you know, the further back you are in the flight, the worse it gets because you got yours and everybody else is in front of you that you're dealing with. So in that guy's defense, he was, he had the worst of it. And unfortunately, he's a little bit inexperienced. Yeah. And in the open desert, the dust has somewhere to go. You know, it'll, it'll expand out to the sides. And you could see on these videos I was watching, that dust has nowhere to go, so it's going straight back

up in the air. Right. There's the biggest dust clouds I've seen. Massive. It was pretty rough. But we had gotten the technique down pretty well at that point. Unfortunately, he hadn't had much experience with it. You're now monitoring radius. Were you on one net?

Were you on monitoring the ground net and the air net? Was there multiple nets or were you on one net? Multiple nets. Yeah, we always, I didn't make up this phrase, but call it a helmet fire. When things go really crazy and every net, is just, you know, lit up. We've got five radios in our head. So it gets pretty ugly because there's a command net,

there's an air-to-air net, there's an air-to-ground net, there's a fire-to-ground net, there's a fires net, and sometimes you can even listen to the tactical commander's net if you want to. So that's a lot of stuff to keep track of. And, you know, as long as there's not much going on, things are quiet. But when crap starts happening, it gets pretty hard to decipher. I had in my platoons in my task, you weren't allowed to talk on the radio.

Like, you weren't allowed. Like, everybody knew they wouldn't say something on the radio unless there was no possible other way of communicating it for this very reason. Because when things would go sideways, everyone, if they think they can just start talking about what's important to them, the nets get cluttered up. Then you put five nets of that. There was another one that I would have never thought about before. but there's a thing called the CEOI, you know, for those who aren't familiar with it, it basically gives you the call signs and frequency and all this stuff. So like in the CEOI, your unit would be one designation,

and then your role in that unit would be another. So let's just say X-ray 6-7. That means that's X-ray unit and 6-7 is the commander. Well, in another unit, it might be Zulu 6-7. But what people started doing in the chaos was abbreviated, 6-7. So which freaking 6-7 is? this, you know, and it really kind of exposed the weakness, at least from my perspective, and that's probably not a great way to do this. And, you know, it needs to be structured

differently, and I don't know whether that ever got resolved. But it's the only experience I ever had where people started just abbreviating who they were and you just lost track because it's just too much going on. Yeah. And especially pilots, they talk real smooth and quick and fast, and they're almost immediately, they'll dump the first part of their call sign when you start talking to them. Right, right. That's just habitual for them. We've got to get the crew to the get their tray tables up before you land. So you've got to be able to get it out. Going back to the book,

the Exville convoy was starting to take heavy murderous fire. We've lost a five-ton truck. I heard that and Ray and I glanced at each other. The ground transmissions were broken and hard to understand. We switched radios for better reception. Things were starting to heat up down there,

but we just sat there and breathed and flew around and around, waiting. I knew Cliff Walcott and his call co-pilot Donovan Briley were back in there with Super 6-1 giving fire support from three SF shooters on board and their crew chief's mini-guns. From what I

could gather as I squinted straining to hear the Somalis were coming from every doorway and from behind every wall. But all we could do is sit up there in our safe haven feeling helpless while our people were in deep shit and we knew it. Super 6-1 is going down.

It was Cliff's voice. He was talking about himself and his own helo. Something had hit his bird, and he and Donovan were going to crash. I swallowed disbelieving what I'd heard. Super 6'1 is going down. Cliff Walcott and Donovan Briley were real good friends of mine. We were all from the same platoon, and we were

close. We'd been together for a long time, traveled on the road together, partied together. Our families knew each other very well. I shook it off. They'll be all right, I decided. They'll have to land, maybe a hard landing or something, but the Sarbird will fly in and pick them up and we'll all go home. The possibility that Cliff and Donovan

might die didn't cross my mind. I couldn't see them from my position so I painted it the way I needed to see it at the moment. As it was, an RPG round had blown a big chunk off their bird. They started spinning out of control while Donovan shut down the engines and Cliff tried to get the aircraft on the ground in one piece. But those damn narrow streets, the helo smacked down on a reinforced concrete wall pivoted and crashed nose first. In those few seconds, everything changed. The radios, which up till now had hissed the occasional code word or updates, went crazy. Sure, we'd all prepared for the possibility of a bird going down, but the timing and location were about as bad as they could be. The ground assault element with prisoners already in tow was ordered to regroup at the fresh crash site.

The Exville convoy suddenly had a new and even more deadly labyrinth to fight through. Air elements were being summoned for support. It was now constant chatter back and forth, the voices still steady. but ominously urgent. On this mission, the worst had happened. We had a bird down and the survivors were surrounded. Are you aware of casualties at this point? I'm not.

In fact, the part that's still tough for me to process is I did not know that Cliff and Donovan had died until I actually got released from captivity. And I'm laying there in the field hospital and all the guys come over to see me and I'm looking around, I'm like, where's Cliff and Donovan? And commander started crying. I mean, it was just, you don't think it can happen, you know. And, you know, I think back to some of the other options you were talking about it, you just look over and they're bunks there, you know, and they're not there anymore.

It's just, I don't know, it's hard to, it's hard to describe if you haven't lived it, you know, to see the impact that that has. and then you come back and see their families, you know, we're still in touch. I just saw Donovan's wife and daughter about a week and a half ago. And, you know, the hole's never filled. It's gone forever. And just amazing great Americans and honored to have served with them. When you compare your mindset at the time, clearly you know that things are going bad.

Was it possible for you to tell how bad they were going with the situation that the ground force was in? I mean, they were getting smashed. Were you aware of that? Well, there was a lot of talk on the net. But, you know, with a bird down, that's going to happen anyway. So, and I am a bit of an eternal optimist, and I'm thinking, yeah, all right, the speed bump. You know, I mean, we'll get through this. We just got to clean this up.

Never in my wildest dreams would have thought that, you know, Cliff and Diamond had already been killed or the things that were going on on the ground, the fatalities had already been taken. There wasn't a lot of talk about losses yet on the rest of. radio that I had heard anyway, but, you know, obviously it ramps up pretty quick here in a few minutes. Going back to the book here, Colonel Matthews called me on the net. 64, I need you to go and take 6-1's place over the target. I was expecting that call to come. We had practiced this exact contingency just a few days before the mock shoot-down of

6-1, and I was rolling in, I was rolling out of holding, even as I answered, Roger 6-4, going in. Even with everything I knew now, my mind's eye flashing me unholy images. my hands and feet didn't hesitate. We broke formation. No one in the helicopter said a word. Ray, Tommy, Bill, and I all knew what had just happened to our friends. One bird was down in the city, another was hit, and the ground force was decisively engaged.

We were playing for keeps on this one. I broke silence on the intercom. It may get a little sticky in there. Let's all keep our heads in the game. There was no response. I headed back for the target site at full power, running right along the rooftops. We were going to provide fire support for. the ground elements but I realized that everyone had been told now to consolidate at the crash site

platoon squads and sections would be racing door to door toward that new position it would be very hard to distinguish friend from foe and such a melee we couldn't just cowboy in there spewing 4,000 rounds a minute Tommy and Bill's electrically controlled mini guns could be armed only by me throwing a switch in the cockpit I spoke to them very carefully okay I said I'm arming your guns but we're not doing any shooting until we figure out wherever Everyone is. Roger that. They grunted, Raj. Within seconds, we were back over the target area, flying a wide circular pattern, trying to locate Cliff's crash site, and clearly spot the enemy before we opened up on him. We were in a hard left bank with me up high in the right seat,

so I was peering past Ray and down into total confusion. It was just smoke and dust and indistinguishable sprinting forms. I tried to raise Super 6, too, Cliff and Donovan's wingman. But the air to air net was jammed up and the AMC kept telling us to vary our pattern and minimize exposure time I jinked it up and down getting high getting low trying to make us hard to hit all too aware that the Somalis were now shooting at us from every rooftop and street corner Something slammed into my helicopter and that's where we opened this up That's where we started the podcast this I was again. I was watching some videos the the actual videos and there's freaking Somalis everywhere. Because you're seeing different angles,

and there's just Somalis everywhere. And they were just lighting up everyone and everything and all the birds. What's crazy about this whole thing, you know, again, you have a picture of the map in this, in the book. It's like a mile away, two miles away. This whole thing is all,

I mean, you're out at sea hovering in your safe spot and seconds later, you're over the target. How long were you over the target for before you got hit? Not long. We made it around about three times. And, you know, you touched on it, but the hard part for us is trying to figure out what's going on on the ground.

I mean, you can't just hose everybody down, right? So, and I don't think people can appreciate how hard it is being in a helicopter. Because, so I tell them, if you want to get some perspective on what this is like, go to a big city somewhere and drive down through the heart of town in the middle of the night, going 90 miles an hour and see how much situational awareness you can get on the side streets as you go by them. That's essentially the same thing. So you can't really tell. You didn't get, you didn't get a look at it long enough because the angles are constantly changing and you see a person here, but then by the time you get a chance to figure out, is that a threat? Is that a friendly?

They're gone. I mean, you're past them. So we, you know, how long does it take to get around about three times? I don't know, maybe two minutes. And we were not even close to the point where we felt like we could shoot. I mean, that's a, that weapon, you know, I mean, it's going to tear the place up. So we never fired around. I, have you been to Fallon, Nevada flying up there? Oh, yeah.

So I was like a new guy, and I was a radio man when I was an enlisted guy. And so I was always calling the helos for extract and stuff. And I was calling in heloos. It was daytime. I'm calling in Helios. We're in Fallon, Nevada, so this is a desert environment. It's open desert. And there's some little shrubs, but not much.

And I'm calling this helicopter, and I'm looking at, and they are not far away, and I have, like, probably a little three foot or maybe four foot by four foot aircraft panel. And so I go, hey, you know, I mark you identify. And I'm sitting there looking, they couldn't have been more than 200 yards away, maybe 300 yards away.

It's a freaking giant helicopter. I'm holding up this aircraft panel, bright orange aircraft panel for them to see me. And they're like, we don't see you. And I'm thinking to myself, what are you kidding me? There's two aircraft. I got a squad of seals out here.

There's eight seals. Sure, we're wearing camouflage, but we feel completely naked. I'm thinking, if you would have asked me to put money, I would have bet, you know, two months pay that these helicopters can see us 100%. And I'm going to hold this aircraft panel up. They couldn't see us.

It is so different when you're up there. So different when you're up there. And they didn't find that. Those two helos didn't find us until we popped purple smoke. And then they were like, oh, yeah, we got you. It was crazy. So what you are seeing when you're in the air and you're moving, it's really hard to figure out what's going on down there.

Yeah, it was impossible. We probably could have orbited for 20 minutes and would have not had full situational awareness, which you've got to have because, I mean, you know, the fratricide is not acceptable, no matter what. And that was our biggest concern. So you go down. Fast forward.

I woke up in the silence of my own grave. At least that's what I believed in. that first moment because the last flash of consciousness I had clearly seen the clawing hand of the grim reaper. I did not know where I was. I did not know who I was. It was like emerging from an altitude chamber with a case of hypoxia as my mind began to stagger slowly through the dark darkened hallways of my concussed brain. When my eyelids finally fluttered open, I was stunned to take in light. The chopper's windshield was almost completely gone, pierced and disintegrated by a slab of corrugated metal that had stopped only inches from my face yet my first sense of emotion wasn't relief

but a fury at the disfiguring of my helicopter by that rusty blade i reached up to shove the thing from my pocket and then pain swept over me like a wave of molten lava my back was broken two of my vertebrae it smacked together on impact displacing the discs between and pulverizing each other every muscle my back must have tried to prevent that catastrophe and been ripped apart in the effort and it felt like some evil giant had a grip on me I stopped moving and just tried to breathe without passing out I sure as hell was fully conscious now although my thoughts and reflexes seemed to trudge through a sort of syrupy fog slowly I moved my aching head and glanced around the cockpit and found I was sitting level with the floor The seats in the black hawk are designed to stroke downward in a major crash and mine had done that and more my

right leg felt strangely numb and as soon as I tried to move it I knew that the femur had broken clean and half over the edge of my Kevlar seat my M9 pistol was still strapped to my right thigh and it and its weight shifted I could feel splintered ends of my bones grinding against one another but it didn't hurt all that much my crushed vertebrae were monopolizing my pain centers I was dead sure that I couldn't get myself out of the cockpit a black hawks hard enough to get out of when you're healthy. You have to contort yourself and maneuver your limbs around the seat and the controls. I could barely move. I saw my MP5 submachine gun lying on the floor near my left foot where I left it. As I reached for it, I made sure it was cocked and locked and laid it across my lap.

I could hear some thin, muffled shouts in the distance. The Somalis would surely try to overrun us, and it looked like I just have to fight it out right there where I sat. And then I remembered I wasn't alone I looked over at Ray his helmet was gone and he was slowly edging himself off his seat Which had collapsed the floor just like mine the acrid smell of spilled jet fuel mixed with dry dust was in the air and I heard someone moaning Unintelligibly from the back of the chopper. It was Bill Cleveland's voice, but nothing he muttered made any sense There wasn't a sound from Tommy Field Ray looked at me I tried to pull them off He meant the engine engines. I know it couldn't do it I glanced up at the

Power control levers. You got him halfway. He didn't say anything for a moment. And then left tibia's broken, I think. Right femur here and my back too. Yeah, he said. And then he slowly maneuvered himself until he was sitting in the door sill

with his back to me. I'm moving, Mike, he said. I'll be right here. Ray nodded and then he gripped the sill with his hands and carefully lowered himself to the ground. I couldn't see him anymore and I would never see him again. I knew we were about to be in the

battle for our lives. We were down in the middle of Mogadishu, and there was no doubt in my mind that the Somalis were coming for us. You can't, there's no way for you to get out of the helicopter at this point. No. Like I said, you know, to get in and out of a 60, you got to twist and bend and you know, sling your leg over the cyclic and I can't, and there's just no way. So I decided that I'm going to fight it out from right there. And your femur's broken. Your back is totally jacked up. Can you hear Somalis in the distance? No, it was, you know, I think when the aircraft first hit, it obviously quite the event in this neighborhood.

You know, there's 20,000-pound machine crashes from the sky. So I think they all ran initially. And then, you know, over time, they started to kind of sneak their way back in trying to figure out what was going on. Did you know where you were? Generally. But, I mean, if, you know, if you'd ask me at that moment, put my finger on a map, I wouldn't have gotten all that close, I don't think.

Fast forward a little bit. Just then, Randy Schuart and Gary Gordon appeared on the right side of our chopper. They were Delta operators, and although I didn't know them personally or by name, I certainly knew who they were. More than once, I had briefed them and the other members of their teams prior to assaults in the city. Since they were wearing no helmets, I recognized them instantly. Randy was carrying a high-tech sniper rifle, and Gary had a car 15. The short-barreled version of the M-16 assault rifle, and their load-bearing harnesses were slung with ammunition and grenades. Aids. Brandy and Gary didn't say very much. They knew the situation was critical and they were there to work, not chat. They asked me about my injuries. Well, my right legs broken, I said, and I think my back. Uh-huh. They nodded and set themselves in position to lift me out of the cockpit. They raised me up gently. So they take you, they carry you out of the cockpit and put you in a position where you're going to have to stay because you can't move.

You say Super 6'4 sat in the pale dirt, its belly smeared into the ground, its big rotors, dead still, and drooping like wilted palm fronds. I couldn't see anyone in the cargo bay. Tommy Field's mini gun had swung around hard and struck him full in the chest upon impact. It was a very heavy weapon and crushed his entire rib cage. Something else inside the chopper had torn up Bill Cleveland really bad. Just in front of them, and to my right was a long shack and a large tree. It's high leaves rustling in the hot wind and throwing some shade into me The only open area was between

Between me that shack and my Hilo Myelow's cockpit a clear field of fire Randy and Gary knew what they were doing They handed me my MP5 and the single spare magazine a total of 60 rounds of 9 millimeter ammo But they didn't say a word as they walked off around the nose of the helicopter I heard Bill's voice again and twist My head around shoot guard Gordon had placed him on the ground behind me He was still incoherent in great pain

Some of his flight gear had been removed and his trousers were soaked in blood I suddenly missed my family very much especially my young son Joey I did not want to die here and even as I fought it the fear began to well up I was badly injured and scared and there was no doubt about it I did not want to fall in the hands of the Somalis Just a few weeks before they'd overrun some Nigerian troops and rule Rumors about what they had done to them were too gruesome to believe and the Somalis had done that to fellow Africans So I couldn't even imagine what they might do to us the image of mutilation That flashed into my mind terrified me Randy and Gary came back around the nose the helo I wasn't sure what they were doing but they assumed they were looking for an area large enough to land an aircraft

And get us out of there they were calm and deliberate talking to each other like a couple of surveyors planning a new parking lot But I knew they were frustrated They had four badly injured men on their hands, and it was impossible to move even a short distance. So there's a little calm almost before the storm at this juncture. There is. Again, I don't think the Smalley's hadn't organized yet. They were still just kind of coming back in onesie-tus, and I think the people that lived in that area may not have been part of the Hobbard Gitter clan or weren't armed.

They just happened to live there. But once word got out, there was an aircraft down that was lightly defended, surrounded, then they get an organized group to come that way. You say from the other side of the tin wall to my right, I heard Somali voices. It sounded like they were trying to get at us, but I didn't think, you know, but I didn't think it over for more than a second. My MP5 was set on single shot mode and I put it to use, firing four quick rounds right through the wall.

I didn't hear the voices anymore. When I stopped shooting, Randy and Gary looked at me as if surprised that a badly injured chopper pilot might actually be useful in a firefight. They didn't speak, but they moved around to the front of the helo again until they were out of sight and now things start to build and you know you detail this in the book You start hearing more AK fire on top of the AK fire. You also hear double taps from Randy and Gary as they're engaging these enemy fighters You're firing through the wall you got your gun starts jamming from time to time you actually emptied your first magazine get your other magazine in

you firing at these people that are approaching you approaching the helicopter you talk about your weapon the thing was stressing me out and it had fired just fine at the range but it was clear the damn gun needed a good cleaning I couldn't claim that I had time for some basic that I hadn't had time for some basic maintenance and I could hear the ghostly echoes of so many drill instructors

keep your goddamn weapon clean MP5s are like so reliable too yeah I don't know you must have been jacked up from the landing I'm not sure but pretty frustrating when you know that's the only thing you got

could have been your magazines too sometimes if your magazines are messed up like they won't feed properly you know I hadn't thought about that maybe just the impact itself you know dislodge the bullets or something or messed up to spring or who knows what But MP5s are so reliable.

I've shot thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds. And sometimes we would just purposely not clean them to see if they would ever jam. They never would jam. I bet your weapon got jacked up. So you don't have to feel guilty about your drill instructors. Oh, I feel better now. Because it was just sitting there. It wasn't in any kind of mound or anything.

It just amazing it didn't fly out of the aircraft, actually. I just had it sitting on the floor. You get some grenades go get a grenade thrown at you You say at first I'd been happy just to survive the crash then I accepted that I'd fight to the death Then swelled with alation at that promise of rescue now we were taking heavy fire We'd almost been overrun and they were throwing goddamn grenades in here I was dripping with sweat pain half paralyzed and out of ammo The stench spilled the stench of spilled jet fuel and gun smoke and rotting garbage Where the old would be my only escorts to my dad

death. Randy and Gary were out there somewhere on the other side of the chopper desperately trying to hold off the engines. The burst of AK fire was starting to roll together like a thunderstorm. I was alone. It was turning into the freaking Alamo. Damn, I'm hit. It was Gary's voice from the other side of the chopper. A Somali bullet had found him, yet he wasn't so much as what he said, but how he had said it. He sounded almost irritated like this was just going to make things harder for him. It wasn't a scream or a plea just a statement of fact like someone who'd nicked himself with a vegetable knife at that point i'm sure he realized how desperate our situation to become no one was coming for us yeah i mean because of your sort of awareness of the whole situation you had some thought in your

mind that hey look i mean we crashed the the the kazevac bird will be in here soon the ground force will be, someone will be okay. We just got to hold them off for a little bit. And that wasn't the reality. The reality with everything that was going on, you guys were on your own. Yeah, because this search and rescue bird already been shot down.

And we had asked for a tank, actually, because as you mentioned, we're only two miles from the airfield. So our thought was, if we have a tank, it can get out there and do extractions just as well, better than a helicopter. And it's one of the things that I always, you know, stress when I talk about this

at the macro level. that was denied by at the secretary of defense level and you know first of all secretary of defense shouldn't be making decisions like that but it was it was based on political reasons they didn't want to throw more assets into a place that you know they've been advertising you know was basically wrapping up and put basically hung us all out to dry yeah just in case anyone's wondering a tank can go through that area with absolutely no factor whatsoever right i mean this is just small arms and RPGs that's no factor at all Pounce right off it.

Only minutes before Randy and Gary had jumped from a hovering helicopter rescue us. They had fought their way through a maze of paths and shanties driving off seemingly countless Somali gunmen. They'd already done more than any two men could be expected to do. They'd put their own lives on the line to try and help their fellow American soldiers. Gary Gordon died on the other side of that helicopter. I don't know exactly when and I don't know exactly how, but I never saw or heard him again. He died before I even learned his name. I will never forget him.

Randy Schukegart came back around the cockpit striding toward me and showing little more than professional concern in his expression. They're throwing grenades in here, I told him. But he didn't seem too worried about that. He was focused on our critical shortage of ammo, and he looked at my now-useless MP5. Are there any other weapons in the aircraft he asked? My crew chiefs keep their M-16s in between the seats.

He went off to the helicopter without a word, climbed in and started digging around moments later he returned carrying the longer m16 and a car 15 the short-barreled sub-machine gun i had seen in gary's hands he handed me the smaller weapon and for some reason it felt much better in my grip than my own mp5 he held up a PRc 112 survival radio what channels a fire net on it was odd he didn't even have to shout there was gunfire echoing from the far side of the aircraft but in hesitant ones and twos channel bravo i replied Randy made a call on the fire support net which gave him a direct line to the little bird guns and fire support officer a little bird was flying high over our position a reaction forces en route came the return call from one of the helicopters the voice sounded familiar

I was sure it was one of the little bird pilots named Chris now that was encouraging all we had to do was hold out a little bit longer we needed help but it was on the way We just got to keep them from overrunning us. We got to hang in there just a little bit more. Randy probably knew right then and there that a little while more would not be soon enough. He squinted out the radio, stuffed it into his combat harness, hefted his weapon, and moved off around the nose of the helicopter. He left without saying another word. I would never see him again. So that's Master Sergeant Gordon,

Gary Gordon, you know, received a Medal of Honor for his actions that day. And also Sergeant First Class Shoot Guard. And both those guys, you know, when you read their citations, they requested multiple times to be able to go in to your position and try and help the situation that was on the ground. They got denied. They got denied and finally they got permission to go in and do whatever they could. And I, and, you know, I can, you know, we already talked about what things look like from the air. And you can only imagine, you know, actually, that these guys knew exactly what they were getting into. They knew the situation they were going into.

They knew the risks that they were taking. They knew that no one was going to be able to get in there besides them. They had much better situational awareness than you did because they were up there watching it. And yet they still rogered up and went in there. It's the most selfless act I've ever, certainly ever witnessed, probably the most selfless act I ever heard of. Because it's a little bit different to be told to go in versus, you know, the way it went down. I mean, as I understand it, of course, I'm on the ground.

So I don't know. I didn't hear this personally. But as I understand it, you know, I mean, Garrison himself said, no, you're not going it. And then they finally got directly on the radio and said, hey, look, sir, if you don't let us in, these guys are gone. And after two or three different conversations like that, he said, all right, put them in. And, you know, I just, you know, you think about if that was you, when I don't mean you, but just in general terms, would you be that, committed to your comrades to go into that situation. I don't think you never say, do you

would or you wouldn't, you know, but they did it, and they did it without hesitation, and I think they'd have insisted on it for, you know, the rest of the mission if he hadn't finally said yes, and they're absolutely deserving of the Medal of Honor. We just did a memorial dedication for Gary Gordon this past fall, actually, in his hometown of Lincoln, Maine. And again, it's another example of, when you see the family and you realize, you know, how, what an impact losing someone like that has had on that old town, actually, and his family, you understand what these sacrifices really mean.

They're just, it's, it's impossible to describe. And, uh, and I mean it when I say I wouldn't be here without those two guys. I mean, no question. There's no doubt about that. The book here, you say suddenly it grew very, very quiet up until this point. there had been quite a bit of gunfire ebbing and flowing in volume some from us and from some from them but for some reason it all stopped for a few moments maybe they've given up i told myself i could hear my own lungs rasping at the air like sandpaper on plywood maybe the reaction forces coming and driving them away i had no idea of this might be true but my fantasy was encouraging my mind worked hard to suppress the rising panic but my thoughts weren't remotely clear or focused i couldn't move i couldn't hide i couldn't make myself invisible My body jerked and I clenched my fist as a huge volume of gunfire suddenly shattered the silence. It came from the far side of the chopper and it rolled in like a hurricane of the worst sounds that Satan could conjure.

Vollies of AK-47 fire hammered at our helpless bird echoing off the clustered chanis, the heavy rounds piercing the chopper steel skin and ricocheting everywhere. The only thing armored on that black hawk were the seats and I watched helpless and horrified as it was punctured over and over again, and it bucked like a downed elephant under a hail of poacher fire. Flying bullets plucked shorn metal and glass into the air and kicked up, clots of dirt, all around me.

It went on for maybe an entire minute, a short span of time that stretched into an agonizing eternity. I couldn't see anything through the Hulk of the smash chopper, so I can't say for sure, but Randy Schuttgart was probably the only American left fighting over there alone against a countless number of enemies. He couldn't fight them all. It was only a matter of time before he went down and when Randy finally fell the shooting stopped

The last volleys of gunfire echoed off the sparse trees Then the most terrifying minutes of my entire life began I doubt there is a more horrific thing one could experience I still lie in bed at night and feel the flood of suffocating anxiety time seemed to stand absolutely still my skin crawled and every vein in my body throbbed with terror What did they really do to those Nigerians? I couldn't move. I could barely breathe. How much pain can a man endure before his mind shuts down and retreats into the sanctuary of unconsciousness? I knew they were going to kill me.

I just didn't know how. Death was on its way. I could hear it. They were a mob of hate-filled men and women, and I couldn't see them yet. But their voices grew louder and louder, yelling and screaming. And the sound that really made my blood run was the clatter of debris being thrown out of way as they advanced it was like some multi-limbed hydra stomping toward me thundering on the ground and furiously tossing away shards of metal and wood as it drew near it was the sound of approaching death

just overwhelmingly terrifying and i knew that as soon as they came across the nose of that helicopter and saw me they were going to chop me to pieces that's what they had done to the Nigerians that's what they did to everybody we had heard eyewitness accounts of them playing soccer with the skulls of their enemies. The howling racket of the mob's rage grew louder and louder, and I knew there was absolutely nothing I could do to save myself. You had to be 100% sure you were about to die.

Yeah. I still remember the cloud. There was a cloud going over, and I just looked up at it, and I thought, you know, this is it. It's absolutely over. There's no scenario here that you could think of that ends up in survival. Yeah. The

thing that you're talking about with the Nigerian They had overrun a position and just murdered and butchered these Nigerians. Yeah, they took no prisoners. They killed every single one. I could think of no other course of action. I put the empty weapon across my chest, placed my hands, my open hands on top of it, and stared up at the hazy blue sky. In seconds, the Somalis would come from me.

Not an organized military enemy, but a mob of enraged civilians and militia with only one thing on their minds. Vengeance. A few clouds drifted by overhead. There were no helicopters in sight. I heard the rising victorious cries as the Somali swarmed around Super 64 The poundings of hundreds of fists against her battered hide a rattle like swarm of feeding locusts I did not sob I did not pray no tears coursed down my cheeks for me and that one frozen moment in time All that I could do was wait for their arrival

My Joey will never know his father So surprisingly, when they get to you, well, they grab and they start, they start beating you. They start assaulting you, but you don't get killed immediately. You say, I can't remember how many times they struck or clubbed me, but it was many, many times. A snarling face bent in and a man ripped the green badge, news from cord from around my neck. That badge gave me access to the task force ranger compound and taped to the back of it was my military identification. My metal dog tags went with it and as soon as he saw the green badge in his hand He stuck it in my face and shouted Ranger Ranger you die Somalia

His scream curled my blood but it shocked me even more that this man could know so much about our security and our procedures There was nothing on that green badge but a number I wondered how many of these were now hanging around the necks of our enemies But I didn't wonder for long because two men began to work on my boots They barely tore the laces open before bracing their feet in the dirt and twisting and pulling I watched them tear my left boot off I closed my eyes when they went for the right the pain of my broken femur shot up through my shattered spine like a high voltage electrocution I looked up as a man raised something high above his head for a second the sun haloed around the object and then he

swung it down on me like a club it smashed into my face breaking my right eye socket and cheekbone for many years I have held my peace for the sake of the survivors the men who were killed not refuting the can claim that I was struck with the butt of a rifle but the truth is long overdue that object was not a rifle it was soft and very heavy it was the severed arms of one of my comrades I did not cry out or try to defend myself my assailant was poised for another blow and obviously preparing to beat me to death but I stared into his eyes with such hatred and defiance and disgust that he froze back away and dropped his club someone

A shot in the air. It didn't exactly bring things under control, but it must have stilled the bloodlust that was surging through the savage crowd Someone threw a handful of dirt in my eyes and mouth the grip blinded me and I choked and sputtered it from my throat Someone else wrapped a filthy rag around my head. I felt many hands clutching at my legs and shoulders and then they hoisted me high up in the air My crushed vertebrae hard ground hard against each other as they stretched me out like a prisoner on the rack my broken femur cleaved into the back of my leg, the sharp bone puncturing right out through my skin. I left my body. The human mind has some defensive talents that only the dying or near dead can relay, and mine took me to a place high above my tortured form.

I looked down on myself and the surging horde, watching it all in perfect detail, the sea of howling, triumphant inhumanity in those thousands of hands passing me aloft like a bloody sacrifice to their unholy gods. For those brief moments, pain was swept away, and then so was I. So now you know I haven't read this in a long time. Yeah. Man. This whole thing is what's weird about this is you think about it, take a step back, like the proximity of everything that's happening,

the fact that the airfields a mile away, the fact that you were flying around at whatever, 4,000 feet in complete safety, two minutes later or 30 seconds later, you're over the target, two minutes later you're shot down. This is all just, and it's all happening in this compressed time and compressed space. And despite the fact that there's tanks nearby, there's troops nearby, you end up completely by yourself. And that thought crossed my mind.

I think I say it somewhere in the book, like, is there not another American in this freaking city, you know? I mean, where is everybody? But what I didn't realize is the chaos going on at the target with the ground convoy, the other shootdowns, because all you know is your foxhole, right? You don't know the big picture. And once I saw the big picture, I realized, yeah, well, certainly had we gotten the assets we asked for, it would have made a difference, but they weren't there. So we couldn't do anything about it. So at this point, you're like a rag doll, and they're just, this mobs got you. Did you have any indication that you were going to survive this?

Or was it just when did they start to rip me apart? Right. I mean, it's like what's next? You know, we've already been through two or three cycles here where the end seemed imminent and here we go again. And then it settles down when they throw me in this first location where we stop. But, you know, the threat of death was always there. I mean, they're just all amped up.

Right. You've been there. When you're in the fight, your adrenaline is so high. And you're, you know, from their perspective, I'm the bad guy. You know, I'm the guy that's causing all this problem. Yeah, you're the bad guy that caused all the problems. Right. You're the one guy that they've got to take it all out on.

Exactly. So they eventually get you. They take you and put you in a closed space of some kind. You can't really see what's going on because, you know, you've got the, whatever, your eyes are blindfolded. The continual chorus is Ranger, Ranger, you die, Somalia. Right. Fregan nightmare. Now, once you get, once you sort of, you're into this closed space, you kind of, you know, you say this in the book here, those first few minutes of capture critical don't piss off your captors.

So you went into like the seer mode instinctively. Right there at the crash site. And, you know, it wasn't like, you know, I, you know, I. made this conscious decision, you know, the game is different now. It's just sort of, it just happened naturally. You know, it became obvious. The fight was over. You know, I mean, I got, there's nothing I can do.

And now I'm in their hands. So I got to revert to what they taught me to survive a situation like this. And most of it actually worked pretty well. Surprising, yeah. And, well, I shouldn't say surprise. How do you know, you know? It is surprise. It's a little bit surprising because you hope it works.

But, you know, when you're in Sears school, it works. Yeah. But when you're dealing with the freaking crazed mob of Somalis, I mean, I'm surprised. You know, I'm surprised. I even reading it, you know, I just, I guess I keep referring back to the fact, like, you just knew you were going to die. Because if I was in that situation, I'd be like, I'm 100%. There's no way I'm getting out of this.

Not against a thousand crazed mob. Like, you're not going to get out of that. It's a freaking miracle. So you get into this room, they're arguing about you, they're yelling at each other. Like you can see there's some kind of, it seems to start to take some kind of shape, right? It starts to take some kind of shape like they have another purpose for you. They end up, I mean, I guess once you get away from the mob, you must have felt a little bit better. Things did settle down.

And one thing I didn't know is that I was actually taken by a rival client. And Mark Bowden is the one who discovers this when he writes Blackhawk down. Of course, this is according to Somalis. I don't know if it's true or not. But it makes sense if you think about the dynamics of those few hours, because I did get moved a couple times and the characters did change. So it's very likely I was, in fact, you know, basically stolen by a rival clan and then negotiated to get back to the Haber-Gitter clan if it's not bizarre enough.

You get chained up, but they change you in such a way that you could get your arm out, so they weren't great at, I guess, chaining people. I don't think they were great at very much, actually, but fortunately no. Yeah, I was able to squeeze out of it. Another guy comes in eventually. And again, look, by the book, I'm fast-forwarding through a bunch of detail that's fascinating to read, and it gives a lot of the granular detail. of what's going on eventually you get a guy that comes in that's a little less aggressive

not as angry and offers you some water um so you're starting to see a little bit of you know maybe there's a little bit of light a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel um this happens suddenly my captors outside were engaged in a battle i could hear rounds being fired from the other side of the wall and yelling in chaos to grew to a fevered pitch bright flashes from their spitting gun barrels pierced through the ventilation holes above my head and lit up my cell like a lightning storm. I could feel the might of the U.S. Army approaching my door. It would all be over in a few minutes. And for the very first time that day, I prayed, I prayed to God to spare me and spare the lives of my comrades. I prayed for just a bit

more of the mercy that had kept me alive until this moment. I had been a casual Catholic before, but I would become a faithful servant forever if I could just have three more minutes of protection until I was on board a nightstock or helo, and we were all flying off to freedom. unfortunately that was just another another firefight going on out there. I think it was the ground convoy actually passing by close to me. That's the only thing I can come up because I could hear what I think were 40 millimeter rounds

actually flying through the air and then pretty sizable explosions when those things hit. And it was marching toward me and then it gets a fever pitch and then it starts to fade. And that's the only thing I can come up with is that I was actually fairly close to where the ground convoy or a ground convoy because there was a couple of different

efforts involved there in getting to the target side on the ground and just kind of demoralizing when it just starts to fade away in the distance and you'd been shot where you got shot in the arm I did yep it was superficial superficial yeah all the shooting is going on

I mean even when they were shooting up your bird that was on the ground like it's a miracle you didn't get shot just by stray rounds right and that was a deflection actually it didn't hit me directly It went off the floor and ended up in my left arm. Finally, you meet this guy. This guy comes in.

He says, my name is Mohamed Gate. He offers you a smoke. Now, what's the deal with Mohamed Gate? So he was probably the most sophisticated character that I dealt with. He was basically trying to convince me that, you know, the Somalis were the victims and all this. And General Adid was a righteous man. And I think I'd, I think I'd,

put in there that he was telling me bedtime stories you know he he was because if you go back in history you could see how that version of the story from some perspectives could be believable i mean where things go south on ade is when he starts stealing all the food that's there from the relief organizations you know that's where he kind of loses my vote but before then you know leading the the overthrow of what was described as a pretty difficult prior government he's a hero And this is what Muhammad Gade is telling me about. He's telling me about the history of Somalia, and now he's a great man, he led his people to freedom,

and we really got this all wrong. You know, we're chasing the wrong guy, right? So, and again, having gone to survival school and understanding that this is something you might encounter and probably will, certainly in a long-term situation, I had my guard up, you know. But the reality is, and I am no expert on captivity, there's people that spent longer in terms.

Captively and I did. But over time, if you repeat a story often enough, it starts to creep into your mind and I think it gains credibility over time through repetition. So it's a long practice technique and I wasn't there long enough for it to work, but I'm sure they would have tried to do that. Because for them, getting an American to say, hey, this guy is really, you know, we shouldn't be chasing him. This is, this is all wrong. That's like goal. I mean, yeah, that's worth a fleet of jet fighters to them. You know, so that's what they're after. Fast forward a little bit.

You end up, you know, you, you, it gets dark, you go to sleep, you wake up, and you start going into your first kind of day of captivity here. He says, how are you, Ranger? I was not a Ranger, but I didn't bother to correct him. I formed the recognizable symbol for O. Okay with my fingers your friends he began and then pause like a surgeon emerging from the operating room with bad news You are the only one I waited for the rest of it hoping that he meant I was the only one captured

Gate came up with a pack of cigarettes and I've offered me one I heard the voice of one of my instructors from Sears school survival evasion resistance escape You don't have to be subservient to your captors, but you do not you do have to be cordial Politeness is a tactic not a surrender No, thank you. We're the first words of my day. And he goes on to say, I'm sorry, but it's only you. Your friends are not living.

We thought maybe one alive under your helicopter and run away by night, but that is not true. You know, he continued many Somalis very angry with the UN and Americans. Many, many Somalis die in this fighting are women. They are the most angry. They are also the most cruel. Somali woman must take a revenge upon a person who kills her son or husband. and she must take something from the guilty person. There's no trial, no jury.

This is justice in our world. So again, this guy's educating you on what's happening. And I will say that I did feel that that was the case when the mob was taking place that the women were the ones screaming the loudest and kind of breaking through and, you know, taking a shot here and there. And, you know, I guess that's why. I mean, I'm assuming it's correct. You say again, fast-forwarding.

At this point, a new character entered the drama. He was preceded by four bodyguards, and as he swept into the room, the other Somalis gate included retreated a bit and nearly bowed with respect. He was middle-aged, wore a pencil-thin mustache, and the wide fringe of hair surrounding his bald head looked freshly cut. His colorful short-sleeved shirt spotted pastel palm fronds, and his beige trousers were crisp and clean. He reminded me of a Miami Beach tourist. He seemed well educated and his mannered English was delivered in soft tones. My name is Mr. Abdi. Is that right? Abdi. Abdi.

My name is Mr. Obdi. And yours? It was clear that this man held some kind of higher position well above the tactical level. It was time for me to give up one of the big four name ranks your service number and date of birth. Durant. Michael J. Durant. Is there anything you need Mr. Durant? I need a doctor. Yes, I can see that. Abdi said. The Somali surrounding him to be listening very carefully, trying to understand his nearly whispered English. And is there anything else? I need to be set free. Of course, he nodded, as if expecting me to say that very thing.

We will provide you with medical attention, and I will make sure you will treat it as well as possible. So what's the deal with this guy? Yeah, I don't know where he was in the food chain, but it's pretty high up. And he, you know, the Somalis at this point, I don't know, maybe this might be a little early for them to reach this conclusion. But this didn't play well for them. The things that they did with the bodies of my comrades from Crashite 2

that made it into the media and just the perception that, you know, the U.S. in the end was really there to try to help them. I mean, you know, put everything else aside. Put, you know, the specifics of that battle to the side. The mission was to help the freaking Somali people. And in return, they're killing. us and dragon remains through the streets. I mean, that doesn't play well anywhere.

So I think he realizes this and the deed realizes this and they've got to do some damage control. So they're not going to be perhaps as hostile toward me as they might have otherwise because they don't want to be foreseen as the savages. I'll use that word. You know, that in some cases they acted like. I mean, there's no question about it.

Yeah. One of the one of the most critical points, most painful points for you was when they show up with a video camera. And you kind of talk about in the book, your knowledge and recollection of those type of situations occurring in Vietnam, in the Gulf War, in Iraq. And you kind of know it's coming that you're going to get this propaganda opportunity for them. I'm going to go to the book here. There was a man with a video camera on his shoulder and two more with tripods, batteries, and floodlights. Why you come to Somalia? Why you kill innocent?

Will you answer these questions? And they're interrogating you in this methodology. They go on and on. Questions began again. In those next few moments, I would utter responses that would change the rest of my life. Why you come to Somalia? I'm a soldier. I said in flat.

expressionless tone. I do as I'm told and again, that's kind of like a standard seer answer. Hey, I'm just doing what I'm told Why you kill innocent people? I glanced at my interrogator then back at the camera so that at least someone out there could see I was responding against my will Innocent people being killed is not good. I said Someone snapped his fingers. They turned the camera off and shut down the lights. It was over They had what they wanted within minutes the room had been cleared of everyone and I I slumped down on my back. I lay there reviewing every second of it in my mind and decided that I'd done all right.

The only thing that video accomplished was to tell the world that the Somalis had an American in captivity. I didn't second guess my decision to answer and I believe then, as I do now, it was the right thing to do. And that, I mean, I remember watching this stuff when it hit the air. It's kind of freaking crazy that I'm sitting here talking to you right now,

actually. You know, this is 1993. Like I said, I was coming back, I was back for my first seal deployment. And I was thinking to myself, you know, God, look at what's going on. Was that, was that, you know, they're trying to get you to say, the best they could get out of you is innocent people being killed is not good. That's like the best propaganda they could get out of you.

So I don't think they knew what I said. I don't think they completely understood it. I think they just thought, oh, okay, we got it, you know. Because if you analyze it, I mean, it's worthless. Yeah. And again, the credit there goes. to the training. You know, without the training, I don't know what I do.

Probably revert to the big four, but, you know, it was proven in Vietnam, that doesn't work. And you've got to have some guidelines to go by beyond that. And, you know, I was fortunate that I had gone to the training and knew kind of how to handle it. Yeah. You have a great sentence. I won't read it. But as they started interrogating you, you started using, you know, like big words. you know, multi-syllabic words that they just couldn't understand.

It's a freaking classic sentence. That's the kind of thing that you learn in, you know, in Sears School. Hey, talk to them in a language that's elevated above what they actually know. So you end up with that. Again, it's kind of crazy that I was sitting there watching that as a young seal, you know, clenching my fist saying, how can I help? What could I do? It had that effect on a lot of people.

And I think part of it is it came out of nowhere. I mean, nobody thought anything like that was going to happen in small. I mean, this was a relief operation. And all of a sudden, we're going from handing out bags of food to this. You know, I mean, it just, it had a shock and awe effect, I think. And, you know, and everyone's reaction was pretty much the same. You know, we need to go in there and just devastate this place because this is just, you can't treat Americans this way.

And it motivated a lot of people. You end up in another, you get transported again. They take you to another spot. You say, I looked around on my new digs now flooded the early daylight because this is now several days in. The door was closed to fix with a cheap lock like the one in my previous cell. One of the window shutters was open. I could see another building not three feet away. There are no birds chirping and I could hear more street traffic.

I concluded we had moved to a more densely populated part of the city. Now you got another guy that is in the scene now, Frimbi. Am I saying that right? Fri-imbi? What's the deal with this guy? So he's kind of a big goofy guy, actually. He was assigned the responsibility to make sure that I stayed alive, basically. That was his, and that another clan didn't get me.

And he had a few handful of guards, you know, but he was kind of a goofy guy. And initially he was very aggressive, I would say. But over time, he became much more personable to the point where I think, think he'd have really struggled if his orders were to kill me. I really do. Again, it goes back to just the stuff you learn as a kid. You know, you treat others the way you want to be treated. You don't act like a jerk. You know, they're Muslim. And when it was prayer time, I was respectful. I didn't, you know, I let them do what they need to do. And that goes both ways, you know. So it just, it wasn't really a strategy necessarily as it was just kind of common sense combined with some of the

training that I'd gotten, you know, why would you want to make this guy do anything other than to help you, right? I mean, there was a couple times that things happened to me physically, and I needed some help getting cleaned up, and he did it. And I'm like, man, I'm not sure I've done this for you, but I appreciate it. Yeah, you said he earned his combat pay. Yes. Yeah.

That sounds like a rough duty. Even I didn't want that, that's for sure. What about doctor? How do you say his name, Dr. Kada? Kada. Cadilla. Cadilla.

Cadilla. And what was going on with Dr. Cadilla? He had actually gone to school in the U.S. He went to med school in California, I believe, at USC, I think, if I remember correctly. And so he spoke decent English, but he had nothing left. You know, this was a big fight. People don't often realize how big the fight was from the Somali's perspective. I've heard numbers as high as 2,000 wooden on their side, and 7 or 800 killed.

So, you know, he's got limited resources to begin with, and he's now dealt with all that, and he doesn't come to see me for a couple of days. And I, you know, I describe it as a tackle box. He had a box of betadine, gauze, and a couple of instruments, and that was in some aspirin. That's all he had. But he tried, and he splinted my leg, and unfortunately the fracture was so high. I mean, it's way up high. It's probably like two-thirds up the femur.

all he really accomplished was stabilizing my knee and my ankle. So the only pivot point was the fracture. So when they moved me, my leg is like this big thing and it's pivoting around the fracture site. And I finally said, man, you've got to get this off. And I finally convinced them to get it off. But, you know, he cleaned me up and he, you know, he did what he could.

And you never know. And he could have saved my leg because, you know, open compound femur fracture in a nasty crap hole. like that is the chance of infection is really high and it never got infected so it's kind of amazing uh they bring you some morees they start bringing you some water at this point you must be thinking like okay i have a decent chance they're trying to take care of me they got the doctor trying to give me guidance um here we get another character rolls in and again get the book because you get to get the better introduction i'm just kind of hitting the wavtops of these things general adeats minister

of internal affairs. He tells you, your face has already been televised around the world. He continued almost with pride. Everyone knows that you are a prisoner. In Shala, you will see your family again. Perhaps you would like a radio.

Yes, I nodded graciously. A radio would be fantastic. So is that your first recognition? Did you start to get a feeling for the fact that everybody knows what's going on here? Yeah, at that point. And at that point, it becomes how long is this going to laugh? Because with those injuries, after the fact, the doctors told me they thought I probably had 30 days to live, you know, without proper care.

And so it's a time, it's a battle against time at that point. But it certainly felt much better than the first, you know, 24 hours for sure. You got a section in here that I think is just good to read because it's good lessons learned for life. You say it was my fourth day as a prisoner of war in Somalia. I knew I couldn't deal with captivity in terms of years. But I had to mentally prepare myself for a long haul. So as I started crumbling, stared at this crumbling ceiling of hotel nowhere and listened to the furious buzzing of the black flies, I told myself that I would survive just one day at a time. I would not imagine my captivity as years of tortured waiting because if I really believe that, I would probably die.

My mind could not accept being in prison for that long and those kind of things, those kind of thoughts would break me. Like any major challenge in life, you have to take it in bits and pieces. You don't try and tackle the whole thing at once. I remembered how I reacted at the crash site when it was overrun and I had focused on surviving for just five minutes and then making it through the next five. And so as day four dawned and I ventured further into the black tunnel of captivity, I needed a limited point of reference or that darkness would just overwhelm me. You just need to make it to tomorrow, I told myself.

If you wake up tomorrow, you'll figure out how to survive another tomorrow. Today you've got to figure out how to survive today. So that's the mode you're going into. Good lesson for freaking life in general. It's any challenge. Any big challenge, it's just one day at a time. That's all you can do. Eventually, Obdi shows up again and you're going to get a visit from the Red Cross.

Red Cross and you get this radio that's working. Once you're on the radio, you start hearing the reports. And that was, that had to be, that had to be crazy.

It is, it is crazy. I mean, like they're playing music. I mean, there's requests for me because they found out that I had the radio.

So now guys in Test Force Ranger are requesting songs. And Donovan requested whoops, there it is or something like that. You have, yeah, they're given a report. Before you get to the radio request, they're given reports of what's going on. This is sort of your first indication.

You know, you hear this report on BBC on Sunday, October 3rd round 4 p.m. Quick, U.S. Quick reaction force detained 24 suspected IDed militant members in a search and seizure operation. We believe several key militia members were among them. three of the 24 detainees died of wounds received during the operation. One detainee is being treated. Key militia members we have detained were not among those who died of wounded.

And then he goes into this. As the operation was in progress, two U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopters were lost due to ground fire during this time. The troops evacuating the detainees came under fine return fire. About 70 rangers surrounded one down helicopter dusk. They formed a perimeter to preemptive. Protect the wounded members of the crew while awaiting a medical evacuation and they too came under fire A task force was organized consisting of two US Army infantry companies 24 Malaysian armored personnel carriers

For Pakistani tanks two Pakistani armoured personnel carriers a ranger platoon and a company of armored Humvees The task force reached the down aircraft at 2 30 Monday morning and evacuated the soldiers I realized that I had been in a furious battle That had been the furious battle I'd witnessed on my first night of captivity Yes, no matter what injuries Cliff and Don had sustained, I was certain now they'd been rescued. And then the report continues. Regrettably, there were a number of U.S. casualties in these engagements. As the Pentagon has already released, five U.S. soldiers have died, in addition to a number of been wounded.

It wasn't good news. The Major's tone was cautious, and I knew that his announcement of casualty figures was preliminary. I had no doubt that the numbers of our dead and wounded would increase. so you're hearing all these reports of what it unfolded and you're like you said earlier you're an eternal optimist and to you hear these reports and you're painting them in the best possible light right yeah what about the black off flying overhead with plane acdc what was that all about well it is somewhat sensitive there There was a method to the madness. It wasn't just to make me feel better.

And I guess we'll leave it at that. And then Dan Gilada, who's a real good friend of mine, just got inducted in the Army of the Ageeas and Hall of Fame, actually just recently, was flying, not flying, but it recorded his voice. And he's calling me from the sky. Mike, we won't leave you behind. And I just got to chill up my spine.

I mean, I still do, just thinking about that moment because you know you're not going to be left behind. I mean, you know that, you know, the unit you're with is the unit that's going to get called upon to rescue people in situations like me and you know what they can do. So it's just a matter of time. But to hear your friend calling you from the sky just incredibly powerful. You end up getting that Red Cross visit. This is like, how do you describe? Incredible Angel of Mercy is what you see this woman as Suzanne Hofstetter from the Red Cross.

and she's there to kind of check on you. Your first look, she can tell a look in your face. She's like, oh, your face is all I'm getting out. She's like, you're not getting released today. She wanted to give you that news up front. But she was there to check on you. And she actually gives you a chance to write a letter to your family. You say this.

I decided to keep it personally and mostly informative so that at least my family would worry less. This is what I wrote. Dear Lori and Joey, I know you must be worried about how I am doing. They are treating me well. The Somali doctor comes every day and cleans my injuries. The people are taking care of me are also treating me well. They get whatever kind of food I ask for, but there's no pizza available, unfortunately.

I want nothing more in the world than to be with you and Joey again. I see his face and I pray this will all turn out okay. Please tell everyone else in the family that I hear their prayers and things will work out okay. Nothing else matters more to me than to see my family again. I think I will. I really do You stay positive and be strong and give Joey more hugs and kisses for his dad that misses him so I broke my leg compound fracture right femur and injured my back in the crash I think my nose is broken but it does not hurt I have a superficial gunshot wound in my left arm the leg and back are the only real problems but as I said the medical care has been very good I hope to see you soon, and I pray for the others who are missing.

Ray, Bill, Tommy, and anyone else. I love you. I signed with my full signature, Michael Durant, a particular scribble that would assure anyone reading the letter that I had in fact written it. When I was done, I was in tears to think that this document would soon be in the hands of my family was just overwhelming.

And what's interesting is that, you know, people, like everyone got to see this letter, the whole world. and including the intel people that were looking for the coded information that you had in there. Trying to figure out what you meant by a pizza because your favorite food was actually spaghetti. And there was a spaghetti factory in Mogadishu. So, yeah, they went down a lot of rabbit holes. They took down every dominoes in the city. Those are some motivated friends, man.

And then you add, so Suzanne, the Rod, Crossgirl ends up going back to task force and debriefing them and she gives them information and one of the information as you mentioned earlier was that you had a radio and so now now these guys everyone knows that you're actually listening to the radio and they start freaking sending songs to you and whatnot just uh again you can't make this stuff yeah it's crazy to even think about um you know you get thunderstruck uh you had up with Willie Nelson and Meatloaf. And these guys are just said, you know, they're dedicated to you.

Yeah. They play Rooster by Allison Chains, which, again, when I was on my first deployment overseas, you know, that Allison Chains album was so big. And that song was obviously so big to anybody in the military. And here you are freaking actually living out the rooster scenario yourself. They sent me a signed copy of the CD. note after the fact. No way.

Oh, that's epic. On my seventh day as prisoner of war, I found religion. It's often been said that there are no atheists in foxholes, meaning that even a non-believer will begin to pray when faced with his own mortality. But I'd never been given, but I'd never been a Catholic of convenience who only prayed when times were tough. Admittedly, as a boy, I attended church regularly with my family. While I was an adult and full-time army helicopter pilot, I'd allowed that tradition to lapse.

yet my absence from the pews hadn't broken my bond with the Lord. At times I would offer my Sunday prayers from the cockpit or say a silent grace over an MRE between missions or ask a chaplain for a quick blessing as I ran to my helo. It didn't require the threat of death for me to recall the sacraments. So when I say, I found religion, I meant it literally. So in this red box, you end up getting a box from the Red Cross, they got a razor and they got toothbrush and toothpaste.

and a writing tablet and pens. A fresh roll of toilet paper. Which, for those people that haven't been in the field or experienced life without toilet paper, this is a big deal. Some playing cards. And then you say the very last item was a U.S. Army Bible, about the size of a small paperback.

It's cover and binding in desert camouflage colors. It was then that I realized some of these items have come directly from Task Force Ranger. Of course, then you do the same thing that they did was you start thinking, there's got to be some kind of a weapon here, some kind of a radio, where I'm going to,

this is how I'm going to get out. Where's the file? So I can file through some bars. Then you start taking notes inside, you start taking notes inside the blank spaces inside the Bible. You still have that? I do.

I should have brought it. I have to come back. And again, we talk about how much the story is crazy this part my wife spoke to me at dawn i had woken up and turned on the radio hoping to hear some more encouraging news and maybe some rock and roll to start the day off right my pains for my leg and back which didn't seem to keep me awake at night gathered force the minute i opened my eyes i lay there with my eyes closed the radio tight to my ear hardly taking in the voice of

afn's female dj until she started talking about me on friday the red cross delivered a letter Durant's wife in the United States, she chose to answer him on camera, on CNN, in hopes that her husband would hear her reply. My eyes snapped open and I blinked hard thinking I might still be asleep and dreaming, but no, it was Lori's voice. Her light southern accent, clear as a bell, and I listened, and as I listened, the emotions flowed through my veins and thudded in my chest. And she said, I'm making this statement in hopes that it will reach my husband. I want him to know that Joey and I are doing well. I received your letter from the Red Cross, Mike. I was very happy to hear that you are okay. and that you are being treated well.

Clay and the rest of the family are taking great care of us. Everyone is praying for you. I know you can hear my prayers and the prayers of your brothers. She took a breath. My own breathing was quick and shallow. My ears burning as I listened with every pore. Everything with a new house is moving along. Fine.

We'll be living in our dream home soon. I hope they're taking care of you and feeding you right. I'll have a big pizza waiting for you soon. Joey is waiting for you to get back before he starts walking. He wants his father to see his first steps. Take care of yourself. Don't worry about us. We'll be fine.

And remember, babe, as you've always told me, NSDQ, night stalkers don't quit. Take care of yourself. I love you very much with all my heart. The DJ cut back when Lori was done, but compared to my wife's voice, her drone sounded cold and lifeless. Yeah. That's like unprecedented, right? And all in 11 days.

You know, I mean, that's the roller coaster of it. And that was really why I decided to write that book, because Black Hawk Down doesn't get into any of this. You know, the Black Hawk Down story ends basically when the battle ends. And this book really picks up at that point and keeps going. So that was sort of the catalyst because it's just bizarre. And as you've implied, I mean, there are a lot of great lessons in there. And, you know, some I learned after the fact, some I applied.

But there's a ton in there. You start getting word that the former American ambassador, to Somalia, Robert Oakley, had showed up to sort of start moving this thing forward. Oakley, this is good to read. Oakley made his position very clear. There would be no deals. There would be no exchange of prisoners. Either a deed would release me immediately and unconditionally or a rescue attempt would be made.

He framed the rest of his message as speculation rather than a threat. I imagine that such a raid will come sooner rather than later, he said. And with massive U.S. forces gathering here, each day, fighter aircraft and tanks and so forth, it will certainly be a tragedy. A large portion of your city will no doubt be destroyed and perhaps Mr. Durant along with it. But the U.S. is not going to sit idly by and let the clock tick any longer. We need about a thousand, Robert Oakley's. The guy was, I mean, he's legit.

I met him. I can tell you the way they reacted as soon as he came back on the scene, he just changed the whole dynamic. They trusted him and he was, they called him a shoot straighter. And that's, you know, this is the type of threat that they understood. Right. They believed that he would back it up. And it worked.

Fast forward a little bit. Mr. Minister Abdi, I'm saying that wrong, aren't I? Obdi. Abdi, sorry. He comes in. I have some good news for you, Mr. Durant. He said, I'm all ears, Mr. Minister.

I said, he smiled slightly at that. But actually I was all nerve endings I could feel them twitching under my skin the elders of the Somali National Alliance have convened He folded his hands behind his back. They have made a decision I did not say anything I just watched him waiting You will go home tomorrow mr. Durant Unconditionally next day October 14th today is the day That was the entry I wrote my Bible that morning

So that's it you find out that you're going home It's a little bit anticlimactic because it's almost surprised. It surprised the guards when they found you. Yeah, at the U.S. Compact. Yeah, at the U.S. compact. No one knew I was coming. They just sort of showed up as like a FedEx delivery or something, you know. Yeah.

By the way, I fell out of the back of the truck when they first took off. Yeah. So it was a little bit of the Keystone cops here too. Yeah, you know, you talk about that. They blowed you in a van as they, you were too big to fit in the van and close the doors. So they just leave the doors open and then they start pulling away and you start flying out the back and they grab hold of you as you're falling. I mean, yeah, like you said, it's Keystone cops. Eventually you show up there at a task force ranger or at the compound. And this, this jag, this jag is looking at you.

And he stood there, looked at me for a moment and shocked and then yelled, holy mother of God, it's Mike Durant. medic then all hell broke loose there's an army field hospital right there at the u.n compound medics and nurses and doctors charged across the tarmac as u.n soldiers pulled me out of the van a gurney appeared and they set me on the litter as faces crowded around me everyone shouting and barking orders at once people were yelling for instruments and medical equipment and it was like a scene out of er as they rushed me toward the large green tents of the hospital i looked around but forimbi was nowhere in sight he'd faded away into the crowd and i left his world much in the way I'd come into it carried a loft and engulfed by a mob and the doctors the nurses

They go to work You you know you talked earlier about finding out this is this is when you find out about found out about cliff and Donovan Obviously just freaking You know horrible and and you're finding out about everyone else. I mean kind of close out the book here and again We've skimmed the wave tops of this and it's so many good just incredible poignant points in it you say this just to just to kind of finish it out there was a c-141 waiting to take me to Germany but between the landing pad and the jet all 400 men of task force rangered come out to form two long rows a corridor of sunburned faces

and desert uniforms someone handed me a borrowed maroon beret and dan gelata and stan wood mark bergammo am i saying that right burgombo burgombo burgom and trey williams lifted my litter and we walked toward the ramp of the waiting transport. Every man in the task force was holding some kind of a cup. Every cup had a shot of whiskey in it. The men spoke to me in murmurs as I passed. They wished me well and offered me thumbs up. When we reached the cargo ramp of the jet, my friends held me there so I could look out over

this honor guard of my brothers, this company of heroes. General Garrison stepped up onto the ramp. He handed me a shot glass of whiskey while he raised his own. and all the men raised theirs to the ice blue African sky to our fallen comrades his voice echoed we shall never forget them to our fallen comrades 400 said in unison we downed our shots as from a speaker somewhere came a recording of god bless america when the men joined in to sing it their voices were like thunder and i could feel the earth tremble they carried me on to the plane At last I was really going home Soon I would inhale the sweet sense of America Soon I would be holding my son Yet so much had happened

So many of the best pieces of my life had been torn away That I felt empty and hollow As the cargo ramp closed I looked at my hands The only things I had left Were that coveted nightstocker beret And the Bible And something I had always taken for granted before

My free time So you go into some of this in the book as well. What happens after that? You know, there's a, that's a whole other, there's a whole another dynamic that takes place. You know, you're getting back to America. You've got to get surgeries. You're getting, I mean, you had to be one of the most popular human beings in the world at that point.

Certainly amongst military personnel and government people. And, you know, they, some of them want to get their picture taken with you so they can post or whatever, write about it. have it in the newspaper or whatever you do back in the 90s. I guess you don't post it. Stone tablets. Yeah. You enter into, you know, starting to get surgeries. I mean, your femur must have been all jacked up at this point.

Yeah, so it actually, the muscles shrink. So it had a seven centimeter overlap from the shrinkage. So they had to put me in traction, which they did in Germany. And I actually flew from Germany to the U.S. in traction. And they didn't set the femur until I got back to Fort Campbell. So it had been, when it was all said and done, close to a month before they actually set it. And it's interesting that your bones get really sticky if they've been broken like that for a while. So it actually doesn't create a significant problem.

I mean, you can wait that long to set it. I was shocked. But, you know, in terms of recovery on that, it's like nothing ever happened to it. I mean, it's the only thing they kind of mess up sometimes that they don't get the angle right. It's rotated slightly. but I guess my doctor had a protractor or something. I don't know. He got it right.

Lined it up. And then your goal at that point became to get back in the seat, get back and become a fully qualified pilot again for the nightstockers. How long did that take? It took a little over a year because, you know, the femurod stayed in for a full year and then they had to take it out. And then I had to prove after that that I should be able to get back in the cockpit. And the nice thing was things had started to change about that time frame where the military recognized the investment they have in soldiers, sailors, air, and Marines.

And unlike previous generations where I would have been just, hey, you know, thanks for your service and sent home. You know, that's why you have, it was the beginning of this thought process where limb or no limb, you want to stay in, we'll find a way to make it happen. And I was sort of, it was happening right in real time as. of help and support in trying to stay in and get back on flight status. And you ran the Marine Corps marathon. Had you run it before? I did. Is that like a normal thing for you?

I've only done two. I did one before. One before and one after. One after. And I ran faster after, by the way. So that's because they're going to take away my flight pay. So I had to get moving. But that was the, you know, my part of the battle is convincing the army, hey, look,

I just ran 26 miles faster than I could before this all happened. I should be allowed to fly. And I got a waiver and I got back in the cockpit. And did you like take a, what was your rank? What were you doing? Did you take like a platoon and go? There was like six of us that went. Yeah, we all kind of did it in honor of the guys that couldn't be there with us

because Cliff Walcott had run it the first time. I don't think Donovan ran it. But anyway, we had all, you know, we weren't like elite runners or anything, but we did races together. So we kind of did it for them. So you end up just going back into full flight status at the 160th? Well, there was kind of a handshake done that I really didn't need to be operational again. I mean, you know, back, they never did anything to it.

It's still deformed. Right. So, you know, I can't, I can't spend three hours in a seat. Got it. But the leadership recognized that it, you know, it was sort of a moral victory for all of us if I got back on flight status. And so I basically became a staff officer. I still flew, but not operational. Got it.

Yeah. When we, when we fast forward a little bit, 1999, the book Black Hawk Down comes out. Like, how does that impact your life, your world? Or was that, was the biggest, let's say, flip on the public. when you got home? For me, the biggest blip was when I got home. When we found out that Black Rock Down was being, because it first came out as a series of articles

in the Philadelphia Inquirer. That was the original documentation that led to the book. And, you know, the paper was okay, because everybody was like, okay, it's just a newspaper, it's got limited distribution, it's not going to get that much attention.

But when it started to turn into a book, scared the crap out of all of us, actually, because, you know, you don't know what they're going to do with it. They could just turn into a ridiculously stupid story or something highly critical or inaccurate or whatever. But in the end, it turns out okay. So, you know, we were all – now the ground – I know some of the ground guys don't like it a lot. You know, I wasn't there on the ground.

I can't speak to it. I don't know. But from an error perspective, it's accurate enough. Yeah, it's so – it's very difficult. You know, I got a friend of mine that was in Saug in Vietnam. His name is John Stryker Meyer, and he has his own podcast that he does now called the SOG cast, and he just has guys from Saigon from Vietnam. And those guys, like two of those guys that were on the same mission will tell different circumstances of how they saw it go down.

And they're not, neither one of them is wrong. They just saw it from a different perspective and or remembered a different way. So I can't even imagine trying to piece together the perspective of however many guys were on the ground in the battle that day and have it, have every person be satisfied with what was said. That's a very tall task. And you know what? I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm saying, you know, a reporter could be on the ground with you and me entering a building and could report exactly what he saw. and you might think it was the worst story ever

and I might think it's great. Yeah. And we would both be right because he could miss. So that's a very big challenge. But yeah, I mean, obviously all of us in the special operations community read that book when it came out and tried to get the lessons earned

and definitely thought that it was, you know, I mean, I thought it was a great book. But again, I wasn't there. No, I think he did a good job. He put a lot into it. He did a lot of research. I think his intent was to tell it as truthfully as he could, and I think he accomplished that.

And then the movie comes out in 2001, December of 2001, the movie comes out. So, I mean, I think as far as combat movie goes, combat movies go, again, is there some Hollywood stuff in there? They're sure as hell is. Is there some stuff that's like not even close to accurate? Yes, there is. But it does a good job of conveying a lot of the chaos, a lot of the mayhem, a lot of the pressure. that guys are under. So I don't know what you thought of that movie.

No, I think the same thing. And it humanized some people. You know, it didn't portray everybody as the Avengers, you know, that are invincible. And, you know, they're humans. They make mistakes. They, they're, there's some that are just rock stars and others that, you know, whether it's inexperienced or what, you know, maybe aren't at that level of performance. But that's just reality.

So I think generally speaking, yeah, I think most people are fairly happy with it. And it's the reason I wrote my book. Right. I was about to ask you that. So your book came out in 2003. Right. So you must have started writing that after those book. Or was it the movie or the book that made you write?

It was the movie. I mean, I went to see the movie. And I didn't go right away because I wasn't sure. I mean, what's this going to feel like? You know, I'm going to watch my friends essentially die on screen. It actually seemed fake to me because they're actors. So it didn't have the emotional impact that I thought it might have for me. And once it was over, though, because like I said, you know, Black Hawk Down,

the credits are rolling, and I'm just basically waking up on my first day in captivity. So I thought there's never been a better time to kind of push this out than now. And, you know, writing books in our world is a bit controversial to begin with, right? And that's why I hadn't done it yet. But I thought, look, there's been a book, there's been a movie. Actually, there were multiple books. And it's all out there.

And, you know, command, you're the one to let it all out, not me. So I'm just going to tell my part of this story because if I don't tell it, it's never going to get told, because I'm the only one that knows it. And so I felt good about doing it at that point in time, you know, from an operational sensitivity perspective that, you know, the stuff is all 10 years old. There's nothing there. But it's still, you know, it raises eyebrows here and there when you write a book. And I understand. But I still feel to this day that it was the right thing to do. Yeah.

It's impossible to write a book. And trust me, I've written millennium. It's impossible to write a book. and say, well, you know, I'm doing this. I'm humble and I'm doing this. No matter what you're writing a book, it's about you. And so there's that, there's that hypocrisy of doing that. And I certainly like had, you know, my gut in knots because like you, when I joined, like,

you didn't talk about being in the Hill teams for damn sure. One of, one of my admiral friends helped me out get through that. And, you know, he said, hey, we're supposed to be quiet professor. But that doesn't mean silent professionals and the stories and lessons learned need to be carried on and you're doing a good job of that and I was very thankful to hear that And I think that's accurate What year did you what year did you or what what time because you retired in 2001 right? Correct And what month did you retire in 2001? February So

Okay, but you know where I'm going with that so September 11th comes and you're sitting on the bench and that's how I felt I mean really but could I have gone and flown a 18-hour combat infiltration in Afghanistan no I couldn't have done it I'd have been asking them to drop me off somewhere in the mountains halfway through you know because my back it just I can't sit that long not not in those seats so it it was hard because I knew you know the things that have gone on and this way as is you know you personally experienced in the last 20 years you can't even begin to describe it all. It's just unbelievable.

And I did feel like I was, I had missed the boat. Because, you know, it's our Super Bowl. I don't think people who don't serve in the military really understand why you want to go do that stuff, but it's, it's your Super Bowl. I mean, this is why, it's, you strive your whole career to get involved in that kind of stuff. And it was tough, but I also knew there was a lot of very capable guys that could do a better than I could.

So once you retired, you went in the corporate world for a bit? I did. I went to work on a brand new helicopter for the Army. The Army was buying a Comanche. And it was pretty cool. I mean, it's, you know, fast, stealth, the high tech, but it was a train wreck. I mean, you know, we don't do very well with major acquisition programs. It's, it's, when you think about, you know, 100 years ago, we could do things with a slide rule.

or whatever, and today we have all this technology and we can't keep anything on track. It's somewhat mind-boggling, but there's a whole list of reasons why that program was in bad shape by the time I got there. But it was a good exposure to getting involved in a government program office

and how things work and most of them actually don't work. And as a taxpayer, pretty frustrating to see what was being spent and what we were getting for it. It's horrible to see that. And during that time, you also wrote another book called The Nightstalkers, which is like more of a historical account of the Nightstalkers. Right.

It's just a select series of missions that were kind of from that same time frame and a little before. And the whole idea there was to sort of articulate that it's not just the same unit. It's the same guys. I mean, there are people that have been there, you know, 24 years and have been involved in all these real world ops. And again, I don't think the average person can even get their head around that, that, you know, those individuals contributed so much over such a long period of time. It's just unbelievable. And it did fairly well.

It did nearly as well as in the company Heroes did. But, you know, I think it gave just some more insight into the DNA of this kind of unit. You know, from an aviation perspective, it's essentially a CLE team. I mean, it's, you know, it's from a culture and commitment to mission and all that stuff, the mission's different, but the personalities. We don't live weights nearly as much. And we don't have, we don't have toys anywhere close to as big as your toys or as expensive as

your toys. Yeah. We always joke about the fact that like our budget is so small compared to, you know, the aviation community because of freaking Black Hawk, what was the Black Hawk cost? Well, the Special Ops configured ones are probably in the 45 range. Yeah. So, and that's not 1,000.

So I had an awesome. a Huey pilot from Vietnam on. And he was talking about, you know, those guys were just flying to hot LZs like it wasn't, like without a second thought. They were rolling in there. And he said something like, well, you know, here I was, you know, 18 years old and flying in.

And I got a, whatever it was. I got like a $100,000 aircraft. That's all mine. And I said, you know, and we started talking. I said, is that why it's more cautious with the Blackhawks? because they're so much more expensive. He goes, yeah, I guess they must be more careful. Those things must cost like $250,000.

I didn't, I knew it was more than that. But I said, I think it's quite a bit more than that, sir. He said, oh, really? How much? Over a million. I forget the conversation, but it was funny. But yeah, for, I mean, a normal, I ended up looking it up. A normal block hoc, not even a spec off.

Speckoff's one is like 20 million, 24 million. So, yeah, the prices went up a bit. And you actually, once you got done working with that first company, you founded your own company. I did. There was one other company in between, but it just got me a little bit more experience in the corporate world. And in 2008, I was working for a publicly traded company. And I know you've worked with a lot of different companies. But in terms of culture, the biggest disconnect for me personally as a former special ops guy is a publicly traded company. because it's all about the profits.

I mean, you know, there's good companies out there. Don't get me wrong. But when you're reporting financials every single day, I mean, we got to the point we're not doing it quarterly. We're doing it every day. Are you people insane? I mean, I can't do what I'm supposed to be doing for the company if all I'm doing is looking at the numbers.

So I got very, very disgusted by it. And I thought, okay, I've got enough experience. I can do this myself. And I started Pinnacle in 2008. And then what's the focus there? So we're an aerospace company. We initially, you know, I mean, it was me and one other guy. So we started out with nothing other than a good idea and a PowerPoint briefing.

And it's kind of hard. I mean, you know, a true startup like that in the defense contracting world is very difficult. I mean, most fail because it takes a long time to get contracts. And if you have no past performance, then, you know, why is anyone going to give you any work? But we got some, and we built on it, built on it, built on it. And now today, I describe us as a, we do everything in the aviation industry except build the aircraft. So if you think about maintenance, flight operations, engineering, logistics, technical publications, you know, all of it. We do all of that for predominantly helicopters, but I mean, we do the tilt rotor for the Air Force Special Operations Command.

We do some fixed wing work for the Air Force. We've got some international contracts. So we've really gone way beyond what I originally, you know, because you write the business plan and where am I going to be in five years. And it's a fairy tale, really, in most cases, especially a true startup because you don't know if you're ever going to get any traction. But we're so far beyond that now. How big are you known in terms of employees?

So we'll have a workforce of close to 600 by the end of the year. And, you know, again, in five years, what did I think we would have? I don't know. I'd have to go back and look at it. You know, 25 people, something like that. So it's enough people where we got to, we have a human resources problem pretty much every day. That's the fun stuff. Yeah.

So here you are, how many years you end up doing in the Army? It's 22. So you did 22 years in the Army. You are a damn POW. You flew the best, you know, helicopters for the best unit in the world. As far as aviation goes, you end up retiring. from that, you work in the civilian sector for a while, you build this business up to a significant business, I would think maybe you're saying yourself, okay, maybe it's time to,

you know, pump the brakes a little bit and take a little time for myself, but it turns out you're actually doing the exact opposite. I'm doing the exact opposite. And, you know, it's, it was a tough decision because I was, the runway I was lined up on, as I described it, was retire. Our youngest is graduating high school this year. You know, the company's done well. I can do whatever I want. You know, in the famous words,

was it Elon Musk who said, I could be on the beach drinking mites every day, but, you know, I want to make a difference. So I decided to run for Senate. And I think you're getting that sentiment from a lot of veterans because, you know, veterans have seen the sacrifice

that people who serve this nation have made and then you see things like the way Afghanistan was thrown away, and you see the way the southern border is being handled, and you see this mandatory vaccine mandate, and you in particular where you hear speculation that seals are going to have to pay for their tridentes and turn them in if they don't want to get the shot. I mean, that's absolutely ridiculous.

And it just, you know, you can sit there and complain about it or you can actually try to do something about it. And I thought, I feel the same way today that I felt in 2008 when I was working for that publicly traded company, and I couldn't stand the way it was being run. I said, I can do this better myself. So I kind of have, I feel that same way. I can do this better than other people that are doing it.

And I've met a lot of folks recently through trips to D.C. And, you know, initially, when you look at them, some of them sound intelligent, and a lot of them are. Don't get me wrong. But if you meet them and you find out what's really behind the curtain, it's a little scary. We need more people with true life experiences, not career politicians, people who, you know, this is not for me. I'm not going there to be in office for the rest of my life.

I'm going there to try to make a difference. And I really don't think you can understand military policy and business policy unless you've actually done it. And a lot of these people have not done it. I mean, they've studied it or maybe they think they know it, but they really don't. I mean, you look at some of the dialogue going on right now about Ukraine. A congressman said yesterday, you know, we would use nuclear. weapons. These people don't know what they're talking about, you know, and you got to have somebody

that can maybe apply the voice of reason. Now, you know, Alabama is a very red state, so in our state, it's all about winning the primary. And, you know, that's in May of this coming year. And if that happens, it's pretty much a guarantee you win the general and then start serving in February of 23. What was the, how did this start off in your brain? Also, how did it start off?

What do you do you call 1-800? I want to run for Senate? Like, how does that work? You can, and some people do, and it doesn't go very well, you know. But no, I was asked to consider it. And the reason I was asked to consider it is because I do have that real-world experience. And I have, it has to be dusted off a little bit, but I have name recognition. I mean, there's a lot of veterans in Alabama.

There's a lot of people that remember this story. There's a huge aviation presence. and having that resume plus the business resume is a real, it's very, very appealing to the average Alabama voter. And the fact that, you know, I'm not a career politician, people are looking for a different answer. I mean, you look at Glenn Yonkin, you know, a big part of why he won is he's a fresh face with a new idea and real world experience.

It's the same thing. Tommy Tuberville, our current senator, who I would serve with, coach of Auburn football. You know, same thing. Never been a politician before. I think initially when he announced, people were like, Coach T. But I've met with him. He's doing an awesome job.

He really works hard to understand the process, and he cares about the state. You know, that's what it should be all about. It shouldn't be about trying to further your own political career. It should be, I'm here to serve the people of Alabama and the nation, because as a senator, there's a lot there. I mean, you know, the things that you vote on matter across the board. And I think we've got to have people there that have, you know, integrity and are there for the right reasons.

And that's why I'm doing it. But I could be nuts. I mean, it's not fun. Well, yeah, I definitely think you're nuts. When you were talking about the meeting these politicians for some of them that are up there, we did a probably too long of a podcast. I did a series of like five or six podcasts about this book that I've read called the Psychology of Military and Competence. and it's written by a guy that was a psychologist, but he was also a guy that served in World War II.

The book was published in maybe 1974 or five or something like this. But one of the key points in it that it talks about is one of the reasons why, and he does the same thing that you just did, which is not, he's not talking about everybody. He points that out over and over again in the book. There's plenty of military personnel that are awesome, that are great leaders, they're outstanding. But there are also people that are in the military that are horrible.

leaders and they're toxic leaders. And one of the key components that he talks about is the authoritarian mindset. So what the problem is with the military is it can attract people. If I'm, if I have an authoritarian mindset, authoritarian psychology, I want people to listen to me and I want things to be in order. So what better way to make that happen than to join the military, become an officer? People have to listen to me and things will be in order. And and then inside the military, as we know, if I never go into combat and all I have to do is keep the uniform squared away

and keep my area clean, I'm going to get promoted because I'm going to run things like an authoritarian. Now I'm horrible in combat because I can't control everything and it drives me crazy and I freak out. But it attracts that kind of person. And then just as you were talking about being in the government and being in a position where you're in

control of things, it can unfortunately attract the same kind of deranged authoritarian that want to go in there and control everything. And so I think that's coming. I think we're seeing a lot of that right now. A lot of the government that is looking around going, oh, wait, this is an opportunity for us,

for me to become even more authoritarian about what's happening in the world. I can control more. We can mandate things. And I think you're in a position where I think a lot of people are starting to push back against that and want to go through life

and have freedom. individual freedom, which is the thing that makes this country great in the first place. Well, how did your wife feel about it? So she is obviously the first person I spoke to. That must have been a fun conversation. Well, you know, she's not a very public person. And I thought she's going to shoot me down right there. I mean, I was shocked at her reaction.

And she said, you know, if you think you can make a difference, I support you all the way. And it kind of reminded me of the conversation about starting the business. I brought the kids in because they were still young. And, you know, you're giving up your job. You have to put your huffs up for collateral. I mean, the bank doesn't write you a check and say, good luck, you know. And so I brought the kids and I said, I'm going to go do this. Now, you've got to understand if this fails, we're going to be living in a box.

And they still remember it. They remember they're living in a box conversation. So, you know, I think as long as you understand the risks, you understand, you know, when it gets near the end, the negative ads are going to come. I mean, people are going to bash you on. on social media. You can't avoid it. I mean, it doesn't matter who you are.

Someone is going to be against you. And unfortunately, there's lots of ways that people can communicate that today. And I had my first hate mail in the letters to the editor this weekend in our hometown newspaper. And I didn't even read it. And my campaign team said, that's a victory. He said, you're getting free publicity.

You're never going to get everyone to say that they align with you. but, you know, it doesn't bother. It honestly doesn't bother me. But someone asked me, what's the biggest difference? And I said, you know, in the world that we come from, which is always going to be me, I will never not be that person. You can trust everybody on your team. I mean, there's A players and there's C players,

but you still trust them. They're not going to turn on you. In this world that I'm getting into, you can't trust anyone. I mean, even, I mean, my own team tells me, don't trust anyone. If you have a conversation when somebody assume they're going to go

and stab you in the back with whether information you provide. So it's a very different world. You know, your guards up all the time. But, you know, I mean,

somebody's got to do it and there's a lot less qualified people than me. I think that's the understatement that have been successful. Oh, man. So for people to support you in this, I know I looked at your

You got Mike Durant.com. That's where people can go. They can learn more about you. You also are on all the various social media, which were you on social media before? LinkedIn. If that qualifies that social media. You're going to have fun. You're going to have fun.

I mean, people are, this is the world, right? This is the world right now. And people are crazy. And they're not even crazy. They're just going to say things to you to see if they can get you to get you. to respond one time or get some viral tweet or whatever so I look forward to watching you navigate this no thank you this horror show you're on Twitter Mike Durant A.L so Alabama Mike Durant A L Instagram same thing Mike Durant L a L Facebook Mike Durant A L you have your own

YouTube channel which is Mike Durant for Senate where people can learn more about you as you as you go forward in this crazy place, which again, I think at some point you're at least going to think to yourself, maybe the joining Elon Musk with my ties on the beach would have been a better call. Yeah. I'm sure there will be several moments like that for sure. But to your point, listen, this country, you know, again, we've, now of a sudden we're talking about, we're talking about fighting Russia in Ukraine. That's, that's, that's discussions that are happening right now. We've got the problems at the border. We've got problems with our unrest in the country.

There's so many issues that I just, for you to be stepping up to this plate, thank you. Thank you for stepping up. I know it's a terrible drag, but somebody's got to do it. So there's a man in the arena speech in my book, which from the moment I first read it, it to me really defines why I'm doing it. You know, I don't want, and again, it goes back to 2008, why I started the business. I didn't want to sit on my porch at 75 thinking, what if, you know, you got to take the leap. You got to, you know, take the chance right at the edge of what you're comfortable with.

And I'm, you know, succeed or fail. I'm not going to have any regrets. Yep. Awesome. Echo Charles. Yes, sir. Do you have any questions? Oh, yeah.

You mentioned your back a few times. Like, what, how is it? Where on your back was it jammed up? So it's L3, I think it is. It's anyway down the kind of like a third of the way up. It's kind of a miracle, actually. The only thing I can't do, and guys don't bust me on this, is I can't pull weeds at the house.

Brutal. Hey, wait, my back hurts too. But pretty much anything else, you know, I stay active because I'm a big believer that you've got to keep the juices flowing. As soon as you stop, first of the first. of all, I'm 60. So, you know, things, things start to deteriorate pretty fast when you, when you reach that point in life. So I still, I run, I lift weights. I was playing hockey until just recently and, you know, staying active. Got into climbing some mountains this year. I think I climbed five,

14ers in Colorado this summer. So, you know, just, you just got to stay moving. And staying strong is the key to a back issue. No question. But, you know, every now and then, I'll get some kind of muscle problem. It'll lock up and you know last three or four days but you know I try not to overdo it and so far it's uh it's hanging in there. That's so crazy because there are people who

have not broke their back who will have major back problems on there 60 or 50 whatever you know what I'm saying it's crazy gotta stay on the path got to in all forms. Mike look we covered you know again the wave tops of your book

the wave tops are your life Is there anything else? Any other closing thoughts? Well, first of all, I very much enjoyed reading your book. I agree with it. I mean, and it's funny because I think I mentioned when I first walked into building today. Some of the lessons learned in there I applied this morning, you know, because we did a management meeting over the phone, over teams. We do a biweekly where we just get everybody up to speed on what's going on.

and, you know, it's all about just simplifying the message, you know. Because if you think about it from a worker at the point of the Spears perspective, that really helps. You know, that's where the message needs to resonate. And if I might understand it or the legal guy may understand it, but that guy or gal out there are like, what the hell are they talking about, you know? So, and I think because of my background, that's just natural for me. I mean, I'm a blue-collar guy. We lived in a trailer, you know.

I mean, my parents were both working class people. I left home with $70. You know, I was a private. I've mopped the latrine. You know, I don't have to pretend to understand that perspective. I've lived it. So I think that really helps. And I don't know how you could get everyone to experience that because I think it's invaluable.

And there's been some great leaders who never experienced that. But I think more often than not having that humbling. sort of meager beginning really, really gives you a better perspective on how to, how to lead people. Because as you say, it's all about trust, it's all about respect, it's all about, you know, keeping it simple, all those things that, you know, if you've come up from that part of the ecosystem may become natural to you. By the way, Doug Brown, you reminded me when you said about your commander who told you about, you know, we're the quiet professionals, not the sound professional. He is and he probably doesn't remember this and would likely deny it But I talked to him about writing this book and he said no one's gonna give you a hard time but writing that book You know at that at that point the movie's out books out I'm out and retired

You know and and so if he if he gave me the endorsement that was good enough for me because at that point he's a four-star general right? Yeah, and I mean I've read so many books on this podcast from From from some private soldier that fought in Korea from a guy that served in Vietnam. Just and and there's so many lessons to learn and not only is it lessons to learn, but it's also capturing the history and the and the stories of the service and sacrifice of all these people. So I think that's probably where General Brown was coming from, you know, looking at you thinking about what you'd been through. I mean, how we don't have we don't have any other buddy that we don't have anyone else that can tell that story. They don't exist. So for you to for you to put

word out I'm sure General Brown was thinking look it's not just not just people won't say anything in 30 years in 40 years people are gonna be so thankful that you wrote that book because now we have a document that's that can explain everything that you learned and explain the incredible sacrifices of of the the troops that served alongside with you and and fought and sacrifice their lives for their team and I think that's not only is it that that that needs to be done. And it was a healing process.

I don't think I touched on that earlier. But when it was over, it felt like I just did something I was supposed to do. And it felt like just getting it all out was part of a recovery, which I don't think you ever fully recover from this. I mean, it depends on how you define recover. But to think that emotionally I'm not affected at all by what happened there is a fallacy. I mean, you just can't help it every now and then there's a wave that comes over. It's grief. You know, I mean, these are your family and they're gone.

Yeah, you know, I'm the same way, you know, losing my guys and it's just horrible. And, you know, sometimes I think, well, how long does that last for? And I had a guy on the podcast named Colonel Tom Fife who was, he fought in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And he received a purple heart in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. And we were on the podcast, we talked about World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. War II, we talked about Korea, we talked about Vietnam, and he was a battalion commander in Vietnam, you know, an infantry battalion commander, and we were talking about their op tempo and operations that they were doing. And I asked him about, you know, the casualties that he took

in his battalion. And as I asked him that, I saw, he almost immediately started getting choked up and emotional. And that's when I realized to myself, I thought to myself, oh, I'm always going to feel like this. It's always going to be there. So like you said, I don't think you don't get over it and probably not healthy to get over it like how can you forget your friends it's never going to happen and I do think that writing about these things has helped me a ton and talking about them has helped me a ton the the act of writing when you write something you de facto detach from it you know you you read the words that you wrote and it you get a little separation and you can kind of process it more so I think the writing is therapy It does help move people forward and helps you process what you've been through in the most positive way that I can think of because then other people get to see or get to read and hear and understand more clearly what you've been through and also the sacrifices that were made. And you know, it's like some books are critical of the military or whatever. There's not a bad thing in there about it. And yeah, there's some bad things that happen.

By the way, some of that language is kind of flowery. Oh. And that is Stephen, okay? That is not me. None of those flowery words came for me. Yeah. And it's good to have, you know, somebody that help you out, write it and kind of clarify some stuff and add some words that, you know, you didn't learn when you were living in a trailer in New Hampshire. Yeah.

I don't know. My mother would probably cringe if she knew I said we lived in a trailer. It was a short period of time, you know, that we were just. And I didn't know the difference. I mean, I was a happy kid. Everybody lives in a trailer, right? So it was, my upbringing was fantastic. I really had a great family.

It's a great part of the country to grow up in winter sports, you know. I miss it a lot. That's where the hockey comes from. I started playing hockey when I was a kid. Yeah, people don't understand. You drive through Massachusetts, and there's hockey rinks all over the place up there. They're playing their hockey, that's for sure. Well, like I said, thank you.

so much for coming on thank you for for sharing your stories sharing your lessons owners thank you for what you're doing right now to to step up into the arena that's a to be a US senator that's a whole new battle a whole new different type of battle and thank you for doing it and most important thank you for your service and your sacrifice for our great nation and finally and most important we honor and salute the sacrifices of the brave men who fought alongside you and who made the ultimate sacrifice for their brothers and for our country.

Thanks for joining us. It's been my pleasure. And with that, Mike Durant has left the building. So pretty, pretty, all kinds of craziness going on there. Crazy for me as I sat there and was looking at him and I was talking about the video that came out of him and that was everywhere and I was in the SEAL teams in special operations was hearing all the rumors

and of everything that was going on and here I was watching him on TV was that 28 years ago and now we're sitting here talking to each other he lived he went on with his career he lived he did everything that he did and now he's sitting in this room talking, sharing his story with us. That was.

Yeah, I remember feeling that, not quite all that, but feeling that with Bill Reeder. And he was like, when, you know, you go through all his experience and you're like, look this guy. He's just sitting here right now, just talking to me. And that's what he went through. And here he is. There he is right there, you know. But yours even more, because you remember that actual time when you were watching it.

That's crazy. It's very crazy. And then when you have all those names that overlap, you know, whether it's General Brown, like that's crazy, right? General Brown was his battalion commander who's talking to him on the radio. I was an Admiral's aide sitting on an aircraft with General Brown flying to some other country, going into meetings in the Pentagon with General Brown. It's the same guy.

Yeah. It's the same guy. Adam Curtis, who was the guy. that got rolled up in Panama with his wife. Yeah, yeah. That's crazy. I worked for that guy. He was my task unit commander

when I was an E5 in the SEAL teams. The same human that's in that book. Yeah. That's crazy. That caused the invasion of Panama to take place, kind of. Yeah. One of the primary causes. Yeah, and kind of goes back to something

that you said before a while ago, where it's like those aren't just characters in a story. or in a movie or something made up. And I said that early on on this podcast. I said, hey, remember that when we're reading this book, these people, these characters that you hear, they're not characters, they're people. And I guess you're right.

That's such a absolute clear connection to the fact that they're not just characters. They're people. But awesome to have them on for sure. And, man, what a crazy battle. incredible incredible battle incredible sacrifices made on that day and yeah makes us think of you know how good we have it you know like like Mike Durant pointed out you know you would meet the families and realize well if it wasn't for them he wouldn't be here

yeah so I think that's probably one of the things that drives him to continue to want to serve so We got to continue. We all have to continue. Continue to serve in whatever way possible. Also, I'll tell you what's impressive. He's in good shape. Yeah.

Good shape. Yeah, even to look at him. You're like, oh, okay, this is 60? Doing it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a good, probably a good thing for us all to think about. If you want to maintain some sort of capability, probably a good idea.

It's true. Very true. And as we mentioned before, where, hey, have you ever broke your back? No, I have not ever broke your lumbar spine. Haven't crashed in a freaking, in a black hawk helicopter, in an out of control black hawk helicopter spinning to the earth. Compressing my spine, spine, breaking my femur, haven't been dragged around by a mob of angry Somalis and beaten. Right after, by the way. Right after that.

Yeah. You know. So you haven't done that. No, that hasn't happened. Okay. Me neither. as you probably know me neither you know uh but he still runs marat have you ever ran a marathon i have not me neither no Mike Durant did and Mike Durant did yeah for sure

climbed what do you say five 14ers this past summer what does that mean 60 14000 foot peaks oh dang that's tall oh that's the slang that's how you say it five 14ers 14ers do you say the eras yeah that makes sense yeah yeah I get it yeah you know I've never climbed five or any 14ers for that matter. And I haven't broken my back. So what I'm saying is the point there is that's saying a lot. Or it's putting things into perspective. Is I'm saying?

We're like, you can break your back. You can break your femur. Compound fracture, by the way. Then dragged, then captive with no real medical attention for 11 days. And then after that go still lift, still climb 514ers, still run marathons it's kind of like okay now it kind of puts into perspective

this might be a choice if we're not kind of on the path you know so yeah we gotta stay on that path we want to choose the right path choose the right path yes sir what do you got how can you help us choose the right path we want to be strong we want to be capable he made a good point

he was like the thing about your back is strength is very important right and that's true like if you have a strong back it like affects everything just like if you you have talks about that Like Leif has a bad back. If he deadlifts, it gets better.

If he doesn't, it gets hurt. Yeah. And even that is a crazy, weird little dichotomy too, right? Because if you have a bad back and you start deadlifting all crazy heavy, it's like, that's, that's bad. You got to be squared away. Yeah. Can't be an ego lifter term that some of us just learned recently.

Yeah. Yeah, that can be dangerous too for sure. Unless we want to be capable. Right. Regardless how much you're lifting or not lifting, you want to be capable. You're capable of lifting heavy things? Kind of got to exercise that kind of stuff. You're going to be capable of running marathons or 14ers or whatever the case may be.

You got to exercise that kind of stuff. But when you exercise, yes, it is rough. It can be rough. So we might need supplementation, but don't worry, Jocko has supplementation. Look at that. Just lands it right in there. Hey, I'm just stated in the facts. Some people say you just press record, but I'm going to say, man.

Thanks, Jocco. Thank you. That was freaking poetic. I can't take credit. Continuity of that whole, just the way it landed in there. You know, it's impressive. Well, thanks. storm, whatever.

You're putting it down right on target every time. Yes, sir. But I can't take credit. I'm just stating the facts. Okay. And I know who's what we got for supplements? So for, well,

let's start with the energy drinks. Okay. So not typical energy drinks, not traditional energy drinks, not old, old, unreliable, poisonous.

You know what they used to give you when you had a headache back in the day? Morphine or cocaine. Yeah, cocaine was for something. Yeah, like cocaine.

Yeah, maybe cocaine was for this or cocaine was for that. Morphine was this, morphine was for that. That's what they do. Like, I don't feel great today. Cool, put you on morphine right on. That was a normal thing.

Oh, by the way, and smoke these things over here, suck on this smoke into your lungs because that'll help you too. They were legitimately doing that. We're not thinking even like vodka or something too for something. So they would tell pregnant women, hey, you know, you need to relax, go have a couple. They did that. My mom. Yeah.

My mom told me she was drinking gin and tonics like a boss, you know, when she was pregnant with me, which explains a lot to explain. to explain it a little bit. Yeah, for sure. You know what I'm saying? Yes. But we're not doing that anymore. Right.

But what I'm saying is you wouldn't have known back, when the doctor prescribed you cocaine for your headache, you wouldn't be suspect until you were freaking crackhead three weeks later, right? So it's the same thing with right now with the traditional poisonous energy drinks that a lot of people don't even know that they're poisonous yet. Yeah. They're sitting there drinking them. They think they're actually good to go.

They think that that's just a little bit of cocaine and they're going to be fine. It's not. It's a lot of bit of cocaine and it's addictive and it's killing you. So we're not down with that. What we are down with is monk fruit. What we are down with is pasteurization. What we are down with is 95 milligrams of clean caffeine. That's what we're down with.

We actually made something that's healthy for you. My kids drink it. My own children drink it. Yeah. So if you want some, get some. Discipline, go. That's the new paradigm of energy drinks. Blya stuff that's good for you.

Good for your brain too. There's some new tropics in there. You got to keep that in mind when you're drinking this stuff. Maybe that's where you get your little landings from. You get the whole story, you know, figured out, boom, there you go. That's the discipline go kicking in. It's very possible. Just bringing it all home.

Yes. Nothing less. Sometimes when we're lifting, running marathons, climbing 14ers, five. or whatever the case may be, sometimes joints get jammed up. Yeah. But we got some supplements for that as well, joint warfare. Super krill oil.

Get on the subscription, actually to all these things, but especially for these, because that's not the fun one, like the milk, which I'll get into in a little bit. In about 30, 40 minutes from now, we'll start talking about mold.

Yes, sir, yes, sir. But it's true. Even me, a grown man, I have my routine, very effective. But every once in a while, I'll forget that's the the cruel oil and the joint warfare. Not recently, but it has happened. But yeah, if you get on the subscript, it'll help.

But nonetheless, you want to look after your joints on these things. Don't neglect them. It's easy to neglect if you let it, let it happen, but don't neglect. Immunity. Look out for that, two. Vitamin D3, take that every day. I take it every day. I take one in the morning, one at night, by the way.

Cold War, that's there. Got your back. That's like air support, right? It's flying overhead. It can lay down some thunder if needed. So you go on that you get the Cold War going and then you're gonna say something about mulk Mulk all day the Mulk train so I've yet to try the banana one oh I have it standing by Oh it's good but Tulsi approved oh yeah oh yeah big time but now you're getting the full on banana cream

Scenario well creamy banana cream right because that's just said that the the frozen banana makes it more creamy Yeah, that's what she said yeah so yeah milk protein additional protein in the form of a of a of a dessert. That one a little bit harder to forget. Because it's kind of on your mind

a lot more. Because sometimes you're getting done with a 28 ounce tomahawk steak. This is about as good as the world

gets, right? You eat 28 ounce tomahawk steak. By the way, I got some sitting in my freezer right now. They're getting ready

to get crushed. I understand. But I will finish a 28 ounce tomahawk steak. I will be so satisfied. Right.

mentally, physically, spiritually. Spiritual. And guess what I still want? A little mo-kitter. A little hitter. And it makes complete sense. It makes complete sense. So, yeah, so, like, you're going to be like,

it's going to be on your mind way more and under way more circumstances. As opposed to like, you're never like, okay, so a lot of times you can be like, oh, yeah, I'm really in the mood for a little mook hitter or, let's face it, a big one. Or a triple one. Whatever the case may be, you will find yourself in the mood. for that from time to time pretty often actually. Yeah. But you don't really find yourself, you know what I'm in the mood for?

To take some krill oil. It's like it just doesn't work, even though the benefits of the cruel oil is or are very significant. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm just saying keep these things in mind. Yep. Get yourself some milk.

That way you can have dessert and feel good about it. Jock a white tea, by the way. It's wintertime in some places, including here. That means you transition to that warm tea in the morning, a little joccoqa white tea. You see that, you see that deadlift kicking back up to 8,000. You know, if you've been off the path for a little bit on the tea. Yeah. Just, just, just check yourself.

You can get the drinks at Wawa. You can get all the items at vitamin shop, and you can order any of it, all of it, from joccofuel.com. And if you subscribe, shipping's free. Boom. There you go. Yes, sir. Also, origin, USA.com.

Or just origin, USA in general. So American made goods, products. We got jeans. We got boots. We got wall, Belts, belts, pants, other work pants, hoodies. Yeah, heavy hoodies. Heavy hoodies.

Like, for real heavy, for real heavy. Not Hawaii heavy. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, a little bit different. Maine, heavy. Yes, sure. Minnesota heavy. Yeah.

Northern Michigan, heavy. Montana heavy. Have you talking heavy. Heavy hoodies that are suitable for all these cold scenarios. So origin, USA.com. And here's the deal. we could just leave it at that, right? You'd be like, cool, yeah, the really high quality products.

We could leave it at that. Yeah, go get some. We can't because we have to tell you something else. They're made in America. They're made in America by American human beings with materials that were also made in America and born in America and grown in America. So when you buy something from origin, you're not just getting a shirt. You're actually rebuilding America.

You're rebuilding our manufacturing. You're boosting our economy. You're putting people to work. So look, do we want to have collateral benefits when we buy something? Yeah. Well, what if the collateral benefit is you're hurting America's economy? That's not good. What if the collateral benefit is that you're keeping a Uyghur in China in a slave labor camp?

Is that good? No, that's not good. It's not good. All as I'm saying is you should shop at origin, USA.com for freedom, for the cause of freedom around the world. It's true. Like, you ever known someone who really doesn't take pride in their work? Yeah. You ever met someone who does take pride in their work?

Yes, I have. Okay, so boom. It's night and day as far as the contrast goes. Yeah. At origin, like everyone, everybody from Pete all the way across the spectrum to everyone else. they're taking pride in that work trust me I've been there and I've seen it with my own eyes

true speaking of taking up pride in our work Jocko is a store it's called Jocko store it's a good store there Jocco store.com is where you can get your discipline equals freedom shirts hats hoodies

some rash guards on there some shorts on there I know it's seasonal Christmas season little cooler not everywhere though yeah yeah

out here in California we're still wearing shorts I'm literally wearing shorts right now. There you go. When people see me wear pants, they're always, well, when like my normal people, my local friends see me wear pants, they're like, oh, it's weird. All dressed up.

I remember when my youngest daughter, like the first time she saw me with a pair of jeans on. Yeah. She was like, oh, why are you all dressed up? Yeah, that's how it feels. So, yeah, it's true. So, yeah, again, you can get some good stuff you want to represent on this path. So the shirts, speaking of shirts, on there, we have something called the shirt locker. It's a good name, by the way.

Jocco approved name. Anyway, this is a new shirt. That came from a trooper, by the way. Yeah. And you spell it, S-H-U-R-T locker. Yep. But unlike the hurt locker, this is good stuff. Like, this is good, good stuff.

Puts a smile on your face. Yeah. New shirt every month, creative designs, good ones. This next one, you might recognize this next one. Okay. Any further hints? Nope, that's it. You might recognize it.

And like it. You might like it. Okay. But yeah, so we got some new features on there as well coming out probably in the next day or two. So be on the look up for that. Features like what are you talking about? There's some more.

It's like a little bit upgraded. Oh, some more benefits to the subscribers of the shirt locker. Yep. Yep. It's true. All upside. Good stuff.

Joccolore.com. If you want to represent, that's where you get the stuff. Cool. Speaking of subscriptions, you can subscribe to this podcast on iTunes. Google Play Stitcher. Leave some reviews.

Also, we have Jocko unraveling. Daniel and I've been kicking out a couple of those recently. We're hitting some topics, some topics that are a little bit, let's say, controversial maybe. They're heavy. They're definitely heavy. The Christmas Joy one just came out about the, about Total War and World War II, what that was all about.

So if you want a little Christmas joy, check out the Jocco Enravelling. Sarcastic. Not a place for joy. But if you want to know about history so don't repeat it, We want to find out what's going on in the world and how it relates to what happened in the past? Check out Jocko Unraveling Podcast with Daryl Cooper, Grounded Podcast, Warrior Kid Podcast. We also have Jocko Underground.com. It's our own free sanctuary, free from tyranny.

So look, we don't control the platforms that are out there. We hope we don't ever have to abandon them. We hope we don't get forced off of them, but we don't know what's going to happen. So we have to have a contingency. That contingency is jocco wonderground.com. If you want to support our sanctuary, then you can go to jocco underground. dot com, $8.18 a month to help support us

and what we're doing there. We get you an additional podcast. That's Q&A going over some tangential but important topics. Oh, yeah. And if you can't afford it, that's all right. we still want you in the game email assistance at jocco underground.com we have a YouTube channel yeah official YouTube channel a lot of good stuff on there is that like a blue checkmark I think it's gray oh you know but yes I check my well you know

we know it's not we know it's not an imposter scenario okay you'm saying but yeah the video version of this podcast you and see what everybody looks like it's a good good mode a lot of people watching um YouTube on their TVs nowadays well with smart TVs and whatnot you know what that is right a smart TV yeah you can watch your YouTube on it yeah there you go boom that's one of the ways yeah yes sir you are but yeah man so yeah YouTube job we got some excerpts on there um you know some other stuff some additional stuff we do we're starting to put some additional stuff on there so yeah check that one out subscribe if you want also I made it I made an album well echo recorded it I guess I

talked anyways if you have maybe moments of weakness you want to overcome them check out psychological warfare. It's available where you buy MP3s. We also have flipside canvas.com, Dakota Myers, making cool stuff that you can hang on your wall here in America. So that's freaking legit. And then there's books. Obviously, the book that we covered today in the Company of Heroes by Mike Durant,

he also wrote the book, The Nightstalkers. So those are great reads. Check those out. Final Spin. I wrote a fiction story. Um, it's available right now. Check it out.

Final spin, leadership strategy and tactics field manual. The code, the evaluation of protocols. Discipline equals freedom field manual. Way of the warrior kid, one, two, three, and four.

Get that freaking book for all the kids you know. Get all those books for all the kids you know for Christmas. That's my recommendation. I wish I could, could get those books to every kid. So please help me. Because those books will help those kids. Also got Mikey and the Dragons.

We have a bout face by Colonel David Hackworth. I wrote the forward to the latest, a dish. Extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership, which I wrote with my brother, Laf Babin. We also have a leadership consultancy where leadership is the solution. Leadership is the solution. And go to echelonfront.com. If you want to check out what we're doing there, we have obviously consultancy. We have live events.

We have the muster. We have field training exercises. We have EF Battlefield. We have the Dallas muster coming up, March 24th and 25th. We also have an online training academy, the Extreme Ownership Academy. This is where you can come. You can ask me questions. And look, it's about leadership for sure, but it's about taking ownership of your life.

Take ownership of your life. Do you take, do you, are you able to control your life by reading one book or listening to one podcast? Are you able to learn Jiu-Jitsu by going one time to a class? Are you able to get in good shape by going to the gym one time? No, you need consistency. You need to review this stuff. That's why we made Extreme Ownership.com to help you take ownership of your life.

So go and check that out. And if you want to help service members active and retired, their families. Gold Star families, you can check out Mark Lee's mom. Mama Lee. She's an incredible human being. She has an incredible charity organization. and I just heard Joe Rogan talking about going into the hyperbaric chamber and how much he has benefited from it. One of the key things that Mama Lee's organization does is it gets sessions, like a month worth of sessions plus hotel, plus living expenses while you're down there, plus travel to get there to get veterans into these hyperbaric chambers for a month worth of treatment or 45 days worth of treatment.

and there's been incredible feedback from everybody that's done it. So if you want to help with that, it's one of the many things that she does, if you want to help or you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org. And of course, if you want more of my tedious talking or you need more of Echo's questionable questions,

you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on the gram, and on Facebook. Echo is at Equichael-Chalz, and I am at Jockel-Wilink. And of course, Mike Durant, running for the Senate in Alabama if you want to support him go to Mike Durant.com look at his social media

you can see it's going to be an interesting ride right he's just getting in the game in social media at age 60 I should have told him it's gonna be wild he has a YouTube channel too so I was gonna just mention if he didn't know already but hey just let's be careful on the YouTube comments

be careful on the YouTube comments on Twitter Mike Durant A-L Instagram Mike Durant Facebook, Mike Durant, AL, and of course, on YouTube, Mike Durant for Senate. So once again, thanks to Mike Durant for coming on the podcast. Honor to have you here. Really incredible to meet someone in person that I've known about and actually watched from a distance as he went through this incredibly traumatic situation.

I watched along with the rest of the nation and really the rest of the world. honor to have you on here thank you so much for coming and thank you for your continued service to this day and to other military person out there personnel out there in the world thank you for protecting our way of life at home and a special salute to the special operations aviation regiment the night stalkers the night stalkers who fly into the worst places in the world for the best reasons and also So a solemn salute to the incredible special operations forces that served in Somalia and fought and died as heroes. And to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, and EMTs and dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all first responders, thank you for protecting our way of life here at home.

And to everyone else out there, well, no matter. What happens, matter what you're facing, no matter how hard things get, remember the motto of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, the saying that got chief warrant officer Michael Durant through the worst of times. That motto is simply, night stalkers don't quit. And neither should you. No matter what, do not quit. And until next time, Zekko and Jocko. Out.