Jocko Podcast - 316: High Stakes Push-Back and Accountability. W/ Stuart Scheller

Episode Date: January 12, 2022

0:00:00 - Opening0:13:32 - Stuart Scheller3:22:40 - How to stay on THE PATH3:49:47 - Closing GratitudeSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 316 with Echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. December 18th, 2018, General Jim Mattis resigned as a secretary of defense for Donald Trump. And he did that. He wrote a letter. And in that letter, he said, quote,

because you have the right to a secretary of defense whose views are better aligned with yours, I believe it is right. for me to step down from my position. And clearly, General Mattis did not agree with what Donald Trump was doing or how Donald Trump was doing what he was doing. And so he stepped down and you can read that letter online, the letter of resignation. And it's he did it in as respectfully as he could. I think after he did that, things got a little bit worse between the two of us.

them but the initial statement was certainly meant to be done in a respectful way to from the from the secretary of defense to the commander-in-chief but it was certainly a statement by him stepping down when that happened i was definitely disappointed to see general mattis leaving that position and because then it then it's a situation where he no longer has any influence over what's happening and general Mattis, highly respected Marine and leader in the military. But this kind of thing has happened before. A harder line was taken by Colonel David Hackworth when he spoke out against both military and civilian leadership in his interview toward the end of the Vietnam War interview with a news

program called Issues and Answers Sunday, June 7, 1971. Here's some things here's some excerpts from that interview and the whole interview is in the book about face But some of the excerpts from that He was being interviewed by a guy named mr. Tucker Mr. Tucker said in your view did poor training lead to higher Casualties in Vietnam? Colonel Hackworth replied I am convinced of it I think that our casualties were at least 30% higher because of or even higher than that But I'd say just safely 30% because of troops that were not properly charged

I participated in a study group in the Pentagon in 67 and 68, which considered U.S. casualties caused by friendly fires. And the group was composed of highly experienced personnel that had served in Vietnam. And it was our conclusion that 15 to 20 percent of the casualties caused in Vietnam were the result of friendly fire. One man shooting another man. Artillery. Friendly fire. Firing on a friendly element. Friendly helicopters firing on a friendly unit. attack airstrike on a friendly unit.

And I could count you, in my own case, countless personal examples. For example, during the Battle of DAC 2, June the 17th, a rocket ship came into my A company's position by mistake and released its rockets right on top of the company, killing the executive officer and wounding 29 other troopers. I can recall in September of 1965 as my battalion was deployed, artillery was fired in the wrong place, killing seven. men in one of my platoons. The interview goes on. Mr. Tuckner says, did the upper echelon of the army really ever become changed on this war? Did they learn from their mistakes?

Colonel Hackworth, I don't think so. I don't think that the top level ever developed a realistic strategic plan, nor did they ever have tactics to support that strategic plan. And that is why perhaps we, who have not been vocal, should be charged for criminal neglect because it is our obligation. It is our responsibility not only to train our soldiers well, to lead our soldiers well, but to make sure that there are no mistakes made, that they are protected as well as possible from mistakes and error.

And once you make mistakes, they must be surfaced, critiqued, identified, and remedial action taken. The interview goes on. Then it closes out with this, Mr. Tucker asks, Colonel. Do you feel it as possible? You have become too emotionally involved in Vietnam. Colonel Hackworth replies, I have become emotionally involved in Vietnam. One couldn't have spent the number of years I have spent in Vietnam

without becoming emotionally involved. One couldn't see the number of young studs die or be terribly wounded without becoming emotionally involved. I just have seen the American nation spend so much of its wonderful, great young men in this country. I've seen our national wealth being drained away. I see the nation being split apart and almost being split asunder because of this war. And I am wondering to what end it is all going to lead to.

Obviously, Hackworth was drummed out of the army shortly after that interview. Hackworth and Mattis are not the first people to resign in protest or because they didn't agree with what was happening. in fact another guy that hackworth refers to is general William billy mitchell father of the air force world war one commanded the first aircraft our first american aircraft world war one and after the war he started to build the air force and guess what the army and the navy kind of objected to it because they they thought that their ways were better and they he conducted field tests against navy ships used an aircraft and proved that we needed airpower. And there was a Navy airship, like a blimp called the Shenandoah crashed in 1925. 14 crew were killed. And Mitchell, General Mitchell,

protested to the press openly accusing the war department of, quote, incompetence and criminal negligence, saying, quote, brave airmen are being sent to their deaths by armchair admirals who don't care about their safety. Mitchell was court-martialed, convicted of insubordination, and facing a five-year suspension, he resigned his commission. 1949, the SEC NAV, the Secretary of the Navy, resigned as the construction of the supercarrier of the USS United States was cut to pay for the Air Force B-36 Long-range Bomber Program. If you ever read the book, Derelliction of Duty by H.R. McMaster, another highly respected general. And one of the things he refers to during the Vietnam War

that the Joint Chiefs of Staff for Lyndon B. Johnson, he calls them five silent men because they didn't push back on some of the things or a lot of the things, or all of the things that LBJ and McNamara were doing. The Army Chief Harold Johnson, General Harold, Johnson said after his retirement after he retired he said quote I remember the day I was ready to go over to the overall office and give my four stars the president tell him quote you have refused

to tell the country they cannot fight a war without mobilization you have required me to send men into battle with little hope of their ultimate victory and you have forced us into the military and forced the military to violate almost every one of the principles of war in vietnam therefore I resign and I will hold a press conference after I walk out of your door. But of course he didn't do that. That's something he said later. General Wallace Green Marine Corps, Marine Corps chief. And this is a guy that in World War II fought the Japanese with a 45 caliber pistol and a bayonet.

And he says in that same book, in that book by McMaster, he says something along the line. of it well if I resign in protest okay I'm in the headlines for 48 hours then what then I'm gone and someone else carries on I don't have an impact and that's a decent point It's a legitimate point made by green same thing I said about Mattis when you leave again it's a decision But when you leave you've got to realize that your influence is gone 1968 Cyrus Vance who was a World War II Navy gunnery officer He was he did resign as LBJ's deputy Secretary of Defense in protest of what was going on in Vietnam, which he initially believed in Vietnam War.

But as he saw it unfold, he said this is not a good idea and he eventually resigned. He also later resigned as a Secretary of State for Carter, for Jimmy Carter, in protest of Desert 1 because he thought that we should negotiate more. He did that two times. I don't think either one of them had a huge impact. 1997 Air Force Chief of Staff decorated Vietnam War Pilot resigned at the perceived punishment that was to be imposed on the commanders on the ground when the Kobar Towers were attacked in Saudi Arabia. 2006, a guy named Aaron Watata Army refused to go to Iraq, didn't believe in the war, resigned. Matthew Ho, a former Marine infantry officer.

In 2009, resigned in protest as a... a senior political civilian representative in Zabu province in Afghanistan, wrote a scathing letter. Can read that online. 2021. Lieutenant Colonel Paul Douglas Haig resigned in objection to, quote, traitorous withdrawal from Afghanistan and also talked about an ideological Marxist takeover of the military and the United States government at their upper echelons resigned. So these things happen. And I talked about this in the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics.

I talked about when you should do this, how you make that decision. Because when you resign or even when you speak out aggressively and ostracize yourself as a leader, you no longer have influence over the situation. You're gone. Maybe your statement will bring about enough highlight. will bring enough light on the subject that you can help, that your resignation can help. That's what you hope for. But it's not guaranteed.

And you may cause excess conflict inside the organization you're trying to help. But then there are times when things have gone too far or a line has been crossed in your head and you feel you just simply cannot tolerate things the way they are. And you've tried to use internal methods to influence a situation, but it hasn't worked. So you step out and you speak out. And this has happened recently. A Marine Corps lieutenant colonel, Stuart Scheller, spoke out about the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan.

And he did this publicly and without authorization from his chain of command. And for that and for other actions that he took, he was relieved of his command. He was imprisoned court-martialed punished Required to depart the Marine Corps without retirement or benefits Which is a steep price to pay To speak your mind on what you're seeing and that is a hard decision to make and it has consequences that will Reverberate for years and lessons Hard lessons will be learned and tonight we have a chance to learn a chance to learn

some of those lessons directly from the source as Stuart Scheller, former Lieutenant Colonel, former United States Marine, is here with us tonight to discuss what happened. Stu, thanks for joining us. Jacko, thanks for having me. That intro gave me chills, brother. You laid that out pretty awesome. So I'm excited to be here, Echo. I look forward to the conversation.

Let's start at the beginning, just to get some background on you as a human. So where'd you grow up? I grew up across the Midwest. My dad was just an insurance salesman. I worked his way up, so we moved between Missouri, Kansas, Ohio. I ended up going to high school and college at the University of Cincinnati, high school in Cincinnati. Then I moved out to Virginia. I got an accounting degree at the university.

When you were in high school, was your mom working? Mom was a stay-at-home mom, so I've got two brothers and a sister. So four siblings, she was always there for us, driving us to soccer practice. I was a baseball and soccer player. Any good? Yeah, I was an All-State soccer player. I got a full ride, played a couple seasons. And, yeah, I was always a captain, always a leader, enjoyed competitive sports.

Did you make it to the state championships? You know, in Ohio they had, I don't know if they still got it, but they had a, it was called ODP. It was like Olympic Development Program. So you'd have to try out for these regional ODP teams that I made the team. But I don't think we ever won anything significant. And what position did you play? I played all over. I mean, I played club, high school, college, so usually I was a skinny runner.

I was a lot skinnier. Back in the day, I was probably 140 through high school, so I was usually outside half-back sprinting. But as I got a little more muscle, they put me back in the defense. And then when I got to college, I was, again, smaller, so then they put me back on the outside midfield. And were you into school getting good grades and all that? Yeah, school's always come pretty easy for me. So I was always on the honor roll. If I put in the work, I always got three-five.

the 4-0. Yeah. Did you say if you put in the work? Yeah. That's a big if. Yeah, man. I mean, I like to have fun. I like to play sports.

And so school wasn't always my focus, but I knew getting a good education and, you know, wanting to build a good base was important. So if I put in the work of homework, I'd always do well. But there were times where I just wouldn't do it and then, you know, you pay the consequences. Did you have interest in the military growing up? I didn't. So my grandfather landed at Normandy. And I looked up to him a lot, but after his Army service in World War II, he got out,

was in the Federal Service, and his brother was in the FBI. So that's why I got my accounting degree. They were telling me, get your accounting degree, you can go in the FBI. So I always loved America. Always wanted to serve. But no one in my immediate family, other than my grandfather was in the military. And so through high school, all I knew was I needed to go to college and get a degree. And then a good job would be on the backside.

And I was getting an accounting degree, and I thought maybe I'd go in a federal service. but that was kind of my thought process all the way through school. What year did you graduate high school? 2000 high school, 2004 college. So September 11th happened when you were in college? That's right. What kind of impact did that have on you? Yeah, good question.

So I was in my sophomore season of soccer, and I was living in the dorms, and it was like a suite where it was like four bedrooms and then a living room. And I remember sitting there with my teammates watching it and thinking, well, this is significant. Our lives are going to change, but I don't know how this is going to impact me.

And then, like I said, I just went back to, I need to graduate college. That's what I'm supposed to do. So even most of my peers joined after September 11th, and that was like their motivation. It was different for me. Mine came a little bit later. So I saw September 11th. It impacted me like all Americans. But I continued just going through school, still not even sure that I was going to

join the military at that time. So at what point did you get serious about joining the military? So I graduated with an accounting degree. started working as an accountant and did not enjoy working as an accountant. And it was 2004, and I was watching the TV, and I saw the Marines moving through Fallujah. And I thought, hey, we're going to probably be at war for another five, ten years. I'd love an opportunity to go represent America, be a leader on the edge of the empire. I've always been competitive being on teams, and I just thought, you know, I could go into the FBI any time, but this war may not always be going on,

and I want the opportunity to serve my country. And so I called the Marine recruiter and started my path. So really it was 2004 for me watching the Marines on TV. I was like, I need to get me some of that. How long were you an accountant for? Not long. I did it part-time as I was going through school, and then I did it for probably nine months after I graduated.

Didn't take long to realize I hated it. Being a grunt and Fallujah looked better. It did. Yeah, you did. Looking at spreadsheets. 100%. That's not for everybody. So how long did the recruiting process take in 2000?

So in 2004, you talked to the recruiter for the first time? That's right. Yeah, I was quick. I talked to him probably in September, and the hardest part was getting all the recommendations. Like you need college professors recommendations. Like University of Cincinnati, it was like 1V300. Like none of my instructors knew me.

You know, I had to like call him back up, but like, hey, you don't know me, bud, can you build this out? You know? And I didn't accomplish anything at that point in my life other than being a soccer captain. So what did I have other than a college degree and being on a sports team? And so you're supposed to write all these accolades

and accomplishments and extracurricular. And so honestly, when I filled out the application, I was like, they're not going to select me. But I submitted it, and my strength was athleticism. So I smoked the PFT, and that was easy for me. And within two months, they selected me, and I shipped out in January. And where's Marine Corps OCS?

It's in Quantica. How was that? I think for some people... How'd that compare to accounting? I think for some people it's a lot easier. There's a lot of prior enlisted guys that go through, and I didn't know anything about the military. I mean, I didn't know the difference between officers and enlisted.

I didn't know the drill instructors were going to scream at us. I quite honestly thought I'd show up, and it would be like grown man rules, and, you know, here's the challenge. Figure it out. You know, I just, I don't know why that's what I thought it would be, and it just, it was not that. And so, you know, the drill instructors all start screaming at you, and they have you dump your bags,

and they kick your stuff all over the parade deck. And I noticed when they were doing that, all my peers had their stuff in Ziplock bags because they expected it. And I'm like the one guy who's just lost. So my pens and my stuff are going everywhere. And of course, I'm the last one trying to collect it all up. And so now I've got like five drill instructors circling me

and I'm like fighting through their shins to get the rest of my stuff. And so I tell that story just to say it was illustrated from day one that I was lost. And then, you know, they kind of kept coming hard at me. But my strength was, like I said, athleticism and then relationships. So I was able to befriend all the guys around me, learn from them, and I quickly went, we do peer evaluations there too. So like in the first peer evaluation, I was at the bottom because I was lost. But by the third one, I was like in the top third, right?

And so that meant a lot to me. So I was able to demonstrate to my peers over the period of instruction that like, hey, there might be more to this guy than the lost little puppy we saw on day one. And so that was kind of the story of my whole entry level training. I mean, I was- Do they get rid of guys that are consistently at the bottom of the peer evaluations? They do. So the way it works is they do a board system. And so there's three boards through OCS. And if you get essentially counseling, so if you're at the bottom, they're going to give you a counseling.

And once you get a collection of them that you sit in front of the kernel and have to justify while you're there, and he's ultimately the one that decides to cut you or not. And then also at OCS, you can quit. You can drop on request. And so it's actually pretty high attrition. So we started with 65, and I think we got down to like 38. So, I mean, but most of it is people that probably shouldn't be there anyway, quite honestly. There are some very talented guys that I had one guy that made it to the last day, the day before graduation.

This guy graduated from the University of Chicago with a mathematics degree. And I remember him very clearly because his last name was Sullivan and mine was Scheller, so I'm standing right next to him in the racks the whole time. And the day before, he's just like, I don't want a commission. And I was like, dude, we just went through like 10 weeks. So the craziest. And he said, I just wanted to see if I could do it. And so that's like the type of guy that you want, you know? And so I was just blown away by that.

And so then this guy made it like he had graduated for all extensive purposes and just decided, nah. And so there are some that go through all that and then wave off. But the vast majority that I saw get a tritted out probably needed to be a tritted out. And then you go roll from right from there to the basic school. That's right. And how was that? six months. So what they do is they just give you a baseline of infantry leadership skills. They say it's not screening. Technically, they're only supposed to screen at OCS. You have to keep

in mind later in my career, I worked as an instructor at OCS and TBS. And so I understand, like, behind the scenes of these two places intimately now, too. But TBS is for all the open ground contracts like myself where they ultimately determine what your MOS is going to be, your military occupational specialty. So it's a very critical spot in terms of if you want to do something specific, you got to distinguish yourself to be able to get that thing. And you learn a lot. It's more of a college atmosphere unlike OCS, Officer Candace School or Infantry Officer Course, which is like all field work.

TBS is like a lot of classroom work. You do some field exercises just to kind of have a baseline of tactical knowledge, but it's a lot of classroom stuff. You said open ground. What is that? Open ground contract. So when you come in, you either come in as a law contract, an air contract. Law like JAG?

Yes. I'm kidding. Yep. So law, air, or ground. Those are the three. And so, check. Bottom line is, when you're at TBS,

they can't manipulate the law or air contracts. Those are already pre-written. But everybody else, they determine their military occupational specialty at TBS. And how did you perform in TBS overall? I was the same thing. I showed up. I was lost.

A quick story on that. So there's a transition where you go from sleeves down to sleeves up in the Marine Corps. or, you know, lost Lieutenant Schuller didn't know that. No one explained it to me at OCS. And so we show up, and so the transition happened to be just between the 10 days we had between OCS and TBS. So I show up to check in, and I'm the only one with my sleeves down, right? And everyone's like, why don't you have your sleeves up?

And I'm like, well, hey, all right. So again, day one, I'm the one that doesn't know anything. And it was the same thing, peer evals. You know, I had to, like, work my way up, and I did. And I was academically probably in the bottom third. just because all the test was just rogue memorization. And I tried to memorize it. A lot of guys that had been in the Marine Corps before,

it was just a little bit easier because they knew the knowledge inherently. But what got me up was like leadership evaluations are weighted pretty heavily and I always did really good on the leadership evaluations. How does that work? Was it like in a field problem? Someone are you watching you and evaluating how you're doing? Yeah. So the grade breakdown at TBS is 40% leadership,

30% academic and 30% physical. And the leadership is built upon different exercises where you're evaluated by your instructor. So it's fed by things that you do, but still ultimately it's subjective. And even in the leadership score, what they do is so if a platoon commander has like 50 guys, they have to rank you one through 50, so they can't give everybody hundreds.

So to make it fair, there's actually an algorithm where they have to stick it in. And so that's how you get a leadership grade. What's a, is it just a typical sort of battlefield problem that they're putting you on? Are you running an ambush? Are you running a patrol or is it like, what's it like? What are they grading you on?

Yep. So some of them are leadership reaction courses where it's like a complex, it's not complex, but there's a problem that you have to solve. And typically they're not solvable, but they're determining how you navigate the situation that's not solvable. There's situations where you're the patrol leader. Hey, take your squad and go attack this fire team on this hill and they'll evaluate you based on that, right?

There's peer evaluations feed into it. So there's quite a few, probably have five or six different things that you do. Mostly, I think probably the heaviest weight is in the tree line. You're a squad leader. So it typically comes down to your squad leader. You're doing PX2. You're doing PX1, which stands for field exercise. So they have all these field exercises, and they just make you a leader of whatever.

You're doing the defense, build the defense order and brief it, and that's going to be a big part of your leadership grade. Are you guys shooting blanks at each other? Yeah, we are. Are you using Miles gear or some equivalent? We have miles. It's now called ITES. It's actually ITES 2 now.

Same thing. But it doesn't work very well in the treeline. What it does do, though, is it provides a graphical overlay. So if you're wanting to debrief it, like you can show, hey, there was the LPO, there was the support by fire. So quite honestly, when we use it, it's more for after-action purposes. It just doesn't work very well in the tree line. So blanks is we found to be better.

And then what did you, what did you, so where did you graduate in the class when it came time to graduate? So the way TBS works is they split it into thirds. And so they do that so that one MOS isn't overloaded with all the talent. So if you're in the top third, you get your first pick. If you're in the top of the second third, you get the second pick. If you're in the top of the third third, you get the third pick. So it became this thing of everyone wanted to be like the top of the third third, right?

So you're playing the numbers game. So like I said, I started in the bottom third. And I was like, but because of my leadership grades, I moved up to I think the top of the second third. I think is where I ended up. And then you get to pick. So what did you pick? I actually wanted to be infantry, and at OCS I said to my drill instructor, I want to be an infantry officer. In fact, when I was going through the recruiting pipeline, my also even told me that the guy that does my recruiting.

He's like, I got an air contract, and I was like, no, I want to be on the ground with a gun. You know, watching the TV Marines, flu shows, like, I want to be on the ground with the gun leader. So at OCS, and I told him, I was like, I want to be an infantry officer, and they just were like, infantry officer, show her, you know. Why were they freaking out? out about that. I think it's just all part of the show. It's a song and dance, right? They just want to kind of knock you down. In fact, some of them are still friends with me. But at the time, you just don't really fully appreciate it. And so those were kind of still bouncing around in my head. So when I got to TBS, I actually had infantry number three. So I put combat engineer and

Intel officer above it, one, two, and three. And they call him SPC, staff, platoon commander, he's a captain. He was an infantry officer, and he just looked at me. He was like, Scheller, you're going to be a fucking infantry officer. And I thought he was joking. I was like, all right, well, yeah. And then it came time for selection, I was waiting for him to be like, you know, Intel officer, combat engineering.

He's like, infantry officer. And I was like, sizing him up, like you joking? And he's like, no, I told you, you're going to be an infantry officer. And, you know, looking back, there is no way I would have made it as long as I did had I had any MLS other than infantry officer.

I just didn't know what I did know then. I mean, it's by far probably the best choice. And so in a lot of ways, that guy shaped my life and career and I was really grateful that he did that. So then you get infantry, as then it's off to infantry officer school? That's right. And how long is that school?

Three months. And how was that? What was it? So I went through OCS, January to March of O5, TBS, April to September 05, and IOC, September 05. So it was rapid fire. A lot of times, because based on when schools pick up, people will have two or three month breaks.

But for me, it just worked out where in 11 months from showing up to OCS, I was standing in front of my platoon. So by mid-December, I was there. And you must have been getting guys that were coming fresh back from, actually coming back from Fallujah that you watched on TV that were your instructors. It's better than that. When I showed up to 1-8, 1-8 was the center battalion of that attack that I watched on the TV. And the first speech I gave my platoon was like, hey, I'm your new platoon commander.

Half of them were in sweats. And so I took my platoon sergeant aside out of the fact. I was like, hey, why aren't they in the proper uniform? He goes, sir, they all have doctor's notes because they all have shrap-dell in their body from the push-through solution. And that was like the moment for me it was like, oh my God. Like this is real.

I mean, it's just like the way of the world hits you of the responsibility. So yes, it was very real when I showed up to my units. How was infantry officer school? That is probably one of the best schools, bar none. I mean, they really do a good job

of preparing you. And I mean, there's just three months of intense, intense infantry training. And I really felt prepared shown up for my platoon. I mean, the Marine Court does a great job of putting a product in front of the platoon in terms of officers. Now, are you going to get some that slip through the cracks?

Absolutely. There is no perfect system. But I'll say holistically from a guy that just wanted to learn and wanted to be a leader, they did a really good job by preparing me. So are they setting up? Are you in a platoon and you're basically taking turns as leaders going out and running operations? That's right. The whole time?

The whole time. In infantry officer, of course, it's a lot more current TTPs as well, whereas the basic school is the fundamentals. Greenside of building the defense, very conventional type stuff, the timeless principles, whereas infantry officer, of course, is like, this is the new RCO, this is the IED that's in Ramadi right now, so on and so forth. This is how we do patrol in 5 and 25s right now. And so there's still a lot of timeless stuff that goes on in IOC, but it was really nice to get a lot of current TTPs coming through that schoolhouse. And then the instructors, too, at IOC,

if you're a captain and you're an instructor there, you're a hand-selected, and most of those guys go on to become generals, quite honestly. So you get the crem de la crem in terms of young captains that have just come off their first tour, like the Marine Corps picks the best to go to TBS, and then from TBS they pick the best out of TBS to go to IOC. And so you really just get great instructors.

Like I had Brian Shantosh, who was Silver Star. I had Marcus Mines, who he got relieved recently as a battalion commander, but in terms of like deep thinker, warfighter, like there was no better. So I just had a group. It's quite funny when you look at my instructors. A lot of them burnt out, like the Shantosh's in the mines.

But I don't think I've ever ran into a group of officers that maybe were more outside the box thinkers and war fighters than that instructor cadre that I had there. When you look back at that time, is there any lessons that stand out to you? Like, oh, yeah, that operation left a huge impact on me. I think just the mental toughness that the instructors have pressed upon me every single day is what I left with. I mean, I walked away with an impression that these infantry officers are the real deal.

They're war fighters and they know their trade. Like it was very clear to me that I had to step up my game and I couldn't fake the funk because people could see right through it. And so I think, you know, the TTPs always change, but the thirst for going and opening the pub and making sure that you knew more than everyone else, making sure that in those tough situations, you were the guy they were looking to have the direction, to have that mental toughness that they might need. Are you guys doing live fire, blanks, both? Mostly live fire. IOC is mostly live fire. Obviously, you're not shooting live fire at each other. So in the situations where we did force on force, it was blanks.

It was a ton of live fire. Did you learn anything about, like, the amount of pressure that you were going to face? Did they do a good job of simulating the pressure you were going to face in combat situations? Yeah, I mean, that was the whole schick. I mean, it was even a couple times where it may have even swung too far to the other direction because I remember one time we were getting close to graduating, and we had gone from the desert of Mojave up to the mountains of Bridgeport, and then we were coming off the mountains of Bridgeport,

and they stopped at some like rinky dink casino, just let us get drunk that was like in the middle of nowhere where probably no one would get in trouble because it was literally in the middle of nowhere, right? Well, the director, this guy is still in the Marine Corps, regimental commander or probably moved on by now. But he got, so he was the major, and he just got hammered drunk

and started screaming at the lieutenants that they weren't ready for combat, right? And that was like one of the few times where like, you know, I'm still young and the curtain had been peeled back, but I remember thinking, like, I get it. You got more experiences in me, but I'm about to knock you the fuck out. Like, you know what I mean? Lieutenant to Major, like, you just don't talk to me like that.

And so, yes, they did a very good job of preparing us, but sometimes I felt like almost to the point where it got a little unprofessional at times. You know, there's a line on how you treat a man. I'll rise to the occasion when given the opportunity, but I don't want to be denigrated. And then from there, it's bad. That's when you went to 1-8. That's right. Yep.

So, in fact, most of the guys, because we graduated right before Christmas, most of my fellow students took Christmas break and then showed up in January. 1-8 was deploying so fast that the battalion XO actually came up to IOC and took me and my six peers that were going to 1-8 and said, I need you now. We're going to AP Hill right after Christmas, and I want you checked in with all your gear, meet your platoons, and then you can take, you know, a week for Christmas, then you're going to show up and go to AP Hill with us. And so that's what we did. And you already talked about

meeting your platoon for the first time. Yeah, so there was that. Then I went into the, you know, I didn't have a house. So my personal life, I was dating my girlfriend at the time and I had gotten engaged. I got engaged that Christmas. So that week that I had off, I actually, I take that back. I got engaged before I went to OCS.

So when I, she was working in Richmond. When I went down to 1-8, she stayed in Richmond. And so I was living in like this shitty, department, because I knew I was going to deploy in six months. My plan all along was to just do the first tour and then go up to Richmond, get out, and be with my wife. We got married in between TBS and IOC. In fact, Marcus Mines, that guy was telling you about that was such a good instructor. The IOC, they call it combat endurance test. This is like their screening event. It's like two-thirds of a marathon. It's like 16 miles. And they got like little stations like AT-4,

do the AT-4, radio, do the radio. And then about 10 miles in, one of the stations is ground fighting. Marcus Mines was a college wrestler. And so, you know, we're just exhausted at this point, and this guy gets to just beat up on tired little lieutenants, right? Like, good job, dude. So that's what he does. And I know I'm trying everything I can to fight him.

And I thought I was doing pretty good. And I think because I was doing pretty good, he started getting a little bit more violent. And he elbowed me in the eye and gave me a black eye. And I got married that weekend. So in all my wedding pictures, I have this black eye, it's legendary. So yeah, 1-8. Sorry, so AP Hill in January to March, and then we actually went on deployment in June of 06.

And where was that deployment, too? So at that time, everyone was going to Iraq. So that's all we trained for. That January to June was like, we're going to Iraq. And there was no question about it. But we're not going to fly there. We're going to get on what we call a Mew, Marine Expeditionary Unit. You get on three Navy ships and you sail over there.

Back in that day, in 2006, it was a much bigger footprint. back then the naval group had a submarine. They had destroyers. I mean, it was a whole entourage back then. But over time, it just Navy's degradation. It's now just the three ships. So we got on the ships. We sailed across the Atlantic.

We went through the Suez, which, you know, it's like a million a ship. So that just fiscally, you know once you cross the Suez and you're in Cintcom, like, game on. But when that happened, Israel and Lebanon got into a conflict. This was in like June or July of 06. And so they actually turned us around, sent us back to the Suez. And then we did a neo non-combatant evacuation operation. And we took American citizens out of Beirut. We sent a platoon in there to secure the embassy.

And then we took them to Cyprus. And then we sat there and stared at Beirut for like six weeks. Like I just did push-ups every morning like there in Beirut. Awesome. You know, and all I wanted to do was go to Iraq. And so then after like two months of just staring at Beirut, we went back across the Suez, got into Kuwait, and they ended up saying you don't have the legs for the deployment

because when you put people on a deployment there's like EAS cutoffs and to extend that would have caused more trouble than it was worth they did take our sniper platoon out of that battalion and sent them up north because at 06 it was such a sniper fight we actually had unfortunately a couple snipers were killed so we ended up coming back from the deployment and had a memorial for these snipers and it was so weird because most of us hadn't even gotten into Iraq and then we're at this memorial but that was was the first deployment.

And then you, so then you roll right into another workup? That's right. So, I mean, we went, so I got back in December and we deployed to Ramadi by September, so like six, seven months later. And I, this is kind of, this is a longer story, so I'm going all of it, but I ended up having to go to winter mountain leaders course from January to March. And then I got back and we went to Fort Pickett all of April. So, I was, I mean, I was only home. And then we ended up going. went to Mojave Viper was what it was called back then, which was a two-month deal. I mean, I was only home probably for about six weeks. And I, and I, my wife quit her job

to come down and live with me in between that. And so we had bought a house and it was like, yeah, I guess I'll see you after the next deployment because I am just not home, right? And so I'll skip forward. The reason I didn't get out after the second deployment is just that. She quit her job and had came down. You know, when I was in Iraq and all just worn out, And she's like, well, what are you going to do? I was like, get out. Like, that's the plan. She's like, well, what's the plan after them?

I don't know. We'll figure that out. She's like, we just bought a house. Please take a non-deployable so we can figure this out. But so, yeah, personal life was tough at that time. So when you came home from that deployment where you went to Lebanon, you get back from that and you immediately go into a workup. But on top of the workup, you go to Mountain Leader School.

You're just gone the whole time. Your wife who had quit her job is now sitting in the house filled a little. boxes that you never unpacked because you're a bad husband. I promised I would paint the house. I never painted a single room. I've done this drill before. I've definitely done that drill before. I moved to Virginia Beach and I was there for two years and in that time I did two

deployments and a workup. So my wife, we never even took some stuff out of the boxes in the house that we bought. So yeah, I did that drill. The bathroom never got painted. Neither did anything else until when? Until we're getting ready to sell the house. then I got a bunch of stuff done. I can beat that.

I've done move to move where the stuff was still in the boxes from the last move. And the movers are like, well, we need you to take it out of the boxes because we can't use other people's boxes. I'm like, you want me to take all my stuff out of the boxes for you to put in new boxes. So yeah, I bet there. Is it Mount Leaders course up at Bridgeport? It is, yeah. And how was that? It was awesome.

So I didn't want to go just because my wife had quit her driving came down and I had limited time. And it was this whole thing where I put my name in the hat because I didn't know my wife was quitting. So on the first appointment, I put my name in the hat. When I came back, they're like, you're not going. And then at the last second, like, after my wife, it quit. And I promised to move all our stuff out. They're like, okay, you're going. I'm like, what?

You know, I was like flipping tables. How long is that course? It was three months. And so it is very challenging because it's so cold. So mentally, it really takes a toll. But I'm a good skier. I grew up skiing in ski resorts around the Midwest. And so that was fun.

And back then, they probably don't do this anymore. Back then, for weekends, they gave us a 16. passenger van and let us as the students have it so that we had a gunny who didn't drink and he just drove us to Tahoe or Reno every weekend. I mean, it was some of the funnest weekends I've ever had. In fact, the last time I came to San Diego was on that Bridgeport trip. So me and my buddy took a flight to San Diego and I had a guy who had an apartment in the Gas Lamp District and we had a good time. And then you go on deployment and now you're working up. Do you know you're going to Iraq this time? Yeah, we do. And you know you're going straight to Iraq and not taking a ship?

That's right. And, but this is now 2007, but your workup is in 2006. No, the workup, the workup was January to July of 2007. Okay. But still, do you know where you're going? Do you know you're going to Ramadi the whole time? Yes. And so at that time, still 2007, you start your workup, Ramadi is still pretty freaking hot at that point.

Ramadi was very hot in January 2007. And then there was a thing called the Al-Ambar Awakening. and so it was almost like to sharp pivot like right as we were getting there. And so the unit that we ripped with, 2.5, I mean, they had just, it was like gunfight, gunfight, gunfight, and then in the last two months of their deployment, it almost like somebody just hit stop. And so it created a lot of weirdness for us because it was like we were still operating under TTPs where it was like gunfight, gunfight, gunfight, and it just, it really wasn't that by the time we showed up. So where were you, where in Ramadi were you? So I was a company XO.

now and we I was on the south-west corner I started a place called JSS Iron and we had like two platoon outposts so as a company XO I was consolidating the patrol rosters and like the name of the game then was always have patrols in the battle space like what are we doing I just get them out there right so it's just like just saturate the battle space with presence and so as XO a lot of my role was just making sure that we had good perimeter security of our positions, that we had all our gear, and that the operational plan, I was like the opso, if you will, at the company level. And then about three months into the deployment, they moved us because we were at that time trying to move out of the city to further outpost to allow the Iraqi police to have more

control. And so we basically built a fob from the ground up. It was called JSS SUA. And this was all the way in the southwest, out of the city now. And it was called sewer because it was literally, I think, built by a sewer. And there was nothing there. And, you know, even though we had been in Iraq since, what, 03, it was like we had never been in Iraq before. So it was like baby wipe showers, no chow hall. I mean, it was awful.

It was bad. And so we did that. We finished the deployment there. And what was the, I know things had settled down a lot when you had patrols out in the city. Were they taking any contact? Or was it? Yeah, we had one platoon that got in some context. The problem then was almost, I don't know, I don't want to say more dangerous, but

it was like you'd get lulled into a false sense of stability, and then there'd be a suicide vest of attack, and you'd lose guys. And so my best friend, so I did the first deployment in Bravo Company. I was a platoon commander. So when we got back, I was still a platoon commander in Bravo Company. They moved me over to Alpha Company to be the XO. So I still had a lot of good friends that were platoon commanders in Bravo Company. One of them, this guy's name was Dave Borden, we used to make dinner.

He was a Pittsburgh Steelers fan. I was a Bengals fan, so we'd always have, like, rivalry games together with my wife. And he got, he responded to a sniper threat, and a suicide vest came up to him, guy wearing a suicide vest, and detonated it and killed one of his Marines and blew Dave up, lost his leg. And so, like, there's just an example of, you know, I'm sitting there for, two months with like nothing happening and then I got to listen on the radio to my buddy being evacuated out lost a marine and then um and so yeah so we had one platoon um that all got combat

action ribbons from doing patrols and getting into firefights but they didn't really kill a lot of people it was more that that deployment was more just about like census patrol stability building shit and try not to get blown up I mean there was a there was the adjacent battalion I might get the units wrong, I hope I don't. I think it was 2-8 and 1-9, and they were doing the rip towards the end of our deployment. And this is still a story told in the Marine Corps. While they were sitting at the ECP,

so there was like two companies in there because they were doing the rip, a huge dump truck blew through the ECP with a bunch of explosives, and all of the Iraqis ran, and these two young Marines stand at the ECP from different units, didn't know each other,

stood there and killed the driver and got themselves killed. And all the Iraqis were talking about, how brave the Marines were. And we almost believed that they were probably exaggerating it a little bit. And then after this huge explosion, one of the cameras, even though it looked like it was broken, still had the footage. And they went back and pulled the footage.

And it was exactly like they said, these two young Marines standing at the ECP, knowing they were going to die, not knowing each other, like in that instant, realized what was happening and saved everybody else on that base. So, like, that, to me, that story almost describes what Ramadi was when I was there, right? Like you can be standing on that ECP for seven months without a single thing. And then all of a sudden in a second, there's a dump truck flying at you and you know you're about to die. So, and so for me as the XO, I was always, it was like, I'm not exaggerating. It was like 20-hour work days constantly.

And, you know, you go back and you're asking, why were you working 20-hour work days? I can't put my finger on exactly what it was. It just seemed like there was always something that were. acquired like immediate attention. And the ISO container that I lived in was with my company commander and our one terp. So it seemed like people were awake and assault. Like somebody always needed one of the three of us. That was the stupidest move in hindsight, putting us three in the same sleeping facility.

Like it was so dumb. And so like when I came home from Ramadi, I mean, I started having chest pains, like real chest, physical chest pains. And it took me a while to kind of figure out that it was anxiety and that I didn't experience anxiety. during the deployments, like when you're working 20-hour days and you're just go, go, going. It hit me like once I tried to chill out. But I tell that just to say, I think I kind of was going so fast

that I just kind of frayed some of the wires in my brain there for a little bit. It took some while to work through some of that. So you get home from that deployment and then what's next? Yeah, so I had skipped forward there earlier. So I had planned on getting out. I didn't get along with my battalion commander

on that deployment. He was very dictator-ish, almost like verbally, mentally abusive. I just didn't care for him. I don't know if I even agreed with the mission of Ramadi. Like I said, I joined because I wanted to be in combat. But I found myself, as my company commander would write the contracts, and as the ex-o, I was what was known as a pay agent, I'd go to Camp Ramadi, and they'd filled my book bag with, like, $200,000 cash,

and I'd run around and just give it to, like, these mafia figures. And I'm just thinking, like, is this what we're doing? I'm like, this just, I don't know if this counterinsurgency thing. Oh, this is what we're doing. I was just like, I don't know if this counterinsurgency. Because all the generals are talking about, like, how great it is. But like, even as a young lieutenant, like, I had a lot of questions. So, like, that was influential to me because I'm thinking, like, there's got to be a more effective way.

Like, these guys that I'm giving the money to right now, I don't know if anyone else sees this, but this guy is not going to build stability here in Iraq. This guy's going to take it. And he might even make it worse for the local Iraqi. And so anyway, I left. I thought about getting out, but my wife's very much wanted some stability. I felt like she deserved it. And so instead of getting out, I took School of Infantry as a company commander.

It was in North Carolina. I didn't have to move. And the goal was to do three years there and get a master's, get an MBA, and then go on the next thing. And when I got to the School of Infantry, it was very busy. I was go, go, go. School of Infantry is funny because right then it was Iraq, and all my instructors were Iraq veterans and all their families are willing to put their problems on the shelf

when you're at war. But it's like they had an expectation for their husband when he got home that they would address some of those problems. And then those poor instructors were working dark to dark. And it was like every single one of them were going through a divorce, like up to like my senior enlisted, like every single one. Like I was bringing in chaplains. I was bringing in workshops. And so the biggest struggle there was just the personalized of my guys. They all had drinking problems. They all had marriage problems. They were all working through their own demons and then trying to teach 300 privates how to be infantrymen without losing their cool, you know, not flying off the handle. And so that was kind of more emotionally draining than I

thought it would be. And I did it for about a year and a half until I write about then. So I was at SOI from 08 to 10. If you go back and look at the news around 0809, the common out of the Marine Corps, guy named Conway was saying he wanted to get the Marine Corps out of Iraq and into Afghanistan. So I was right when they were trying to do the pivot. And I thought, hey, you know, my Ramadi deployment, and it wasn't the combat that I thought it was going to be. It was very emotionally draining, but it was, you know, I wasn't shooting a gun all the time. So I was like, I would love to get into Afghanistan and then maybe get out and just have that experience. And so I contacted my monitor and I found a deployment through an organization called Joint IED defeat

organization, Jido. And he's like, there's a joint requirement for an infantry captain. He's like, this is perfect. It'll get you there. You'll get every, all the combat experience that you want. And all you need is two years at SOI, not three. So after two, I can cut you orders. If you get your commands endorsement, we can make this happen. So I went and talked to my boss. And my boss didn't want me to do it. He was very reluctant. He wanted me to be the Opso or the H&I company commander, which is like the senior billister. Like he liked me. Were you instructing at all when you were at the SOI or were you more just like overall in management position? Yeah so they you get 300 privates so SOI is in two camps so there's MCT and ITB so all marine enlisted Marines that are not

infantry go to MCT and they get it's it's evolving now at the new force but back then they got like two weeks of infantry training and ITB you got one month so it was essentially like your following school so the guys at MCT if you're going to go be a motor T driver, you go to MCT for two weeks, and then you go to your motor T school. ITB, they just get longer training, and then their infantry Marines, and then they go into their following unit. And so, again, it's changing now. I think it's up to like 10 weeks for ITB, but back then it was only four weeks.

And so. God, that's outstanding. Yeah, it is. It really is. And so they got, so we would get 300 privates, and we would divide them into four platoons. The platoon commanders were either staff sergeants or sergeants, and then each platoon commander had two or three instructors. So you never had more than three to four for, I don't know, do the math,

like 75 guys. So it's a lot. The instructor to student ratio was not good. And there was no other officers. I had a first sergeant and a gunny and then there's the young captain. And that was the staff. So you're not doing a lot of instruction. You're not seeing a lot of what's going on. I mean, there were, most of the instruction comes from, they have a separate cadre of instructors at the instructor group. So it's almost like, The staff that you have is almost like facilitating and the after hours and the watching and the day-to-day leadership. Now, there's still a lot of classes that we give out in the field or once they get back to the house. And sometimes there's even like scheduled platform instruction.

But most of the platform instruction comes from general support instructors. So the question was how much classes did I give? There were probably two or three programmed company commander classes and the rest was just impromptu. Hey, you're going on Liberty this weekend. I'm your company commander. Don't get in trouble. Don't get in trouble. I was very lucky in my career.

I was an instructor, which is a strong word to use. When back in the day, back in the day we used to at SEAL team, there was just instruct, there was training inside each SEAL team. So like as an E5, I was teaching a bunch of stuff. And it really put me in a great position because then you're having to learn it better. And then you're teaching it. And then you're seeing how it works and seeing the mistakes that people made. So I've always felt like I learned a ton doing that.

And then later in my career when I was running training, which was our training was just freaking outstanding. And but I got to, again, watch, observe, teach. And I learned so much when I was in those positions. And that's why I was wondering if you were, you know, kind of actively teaching and what you got out of that. You're 100% right. The people that learn the most are the teachers. And because you can't fake the funk when you're the teacher and you have to, there's, you know, five, six, seven hours of prep for any one hour of instruction that you get at a minimum.

And so I 100% agree. I've worked a bunch of formal schoolhouses. And we, we learned that abundantly. The people that teach are really the ones that learn, in my opinion. Yeah, I think I learned 70% of what I ever learned in my life while I was an E5 instructor cadre at CEL Team 1.

Because I taught, that's the other thing. I was like a young single guy. So it was, what trip am I going on? All of them. I'm going to teach diving. gonna teach land warfare, gonna teach CQC, Mount,

we're gonna teach in everything. And spec recon, cool, I'm going on the spec recon trip. So really just got to teach everything. And then you get to watch and you're de facto detached from what's happening, so you're watching. We used to teach the new guys that came to SEAL Team One. We would put them through their initial course of training. So then I'm watching the young officers.

And I was just, I was an enlisted guy, but now I'm watching these young officers and seeing like, oh, this guy is getting totally, he's spending all this time shooting his weapon, no one's making any calls, I never going to do that. I'm never going to make that mistake. And this guy over here is imposing his plan on the rest of his squad. So they're all pissed at him.

I'm not going to make that mistake. So I got to learn, like I said, I might even be more than 70% from just being a young E5 teaching at CL Team 1. And then also you had these senior guys that were super knowledgeable and they're teaching you. And that's just a good way to learn. But then you get. picked up for this Jayedo billet. Yep. Yeah, so the Jayado billet was awesome. I mean, it was

awesome. So I had no training. So I mean, you have heard my story of all my training in terms of IEDs. So an EOD guy goes to school for six to nine months depending on what branch of service. And what they did was they put me in Crystal City in a Hilton lobby conference room and then like had a fake name for the conference shut and locked the doors and they had some like old IED maker. and he gave us like a crash course on how to make a circuit, essentially, and then how the explosives work. So we did that for three days, and then they shipped me down range, and that was that. I mean, it was crazy when you think about it.

And I ended up... Then you were the IED expert. Then I was the IED expert. I don't think they ever expected me to be the IED expert. They wanted EOD is obviously the IED expert, but what the billet was supposed to do was be the infantry interface to have enough knowledge of, IEDs but to think like employment of infantry stuff and connect the route clearance

platoon and the EOD and then be able to translate that into whatever is important to the battalion commander so you get your three-day of school and then you deploy right to Afghanistan that's right yep how was your how was your wife on this whole scenario my wife so dude all right yeah uh so uh so we got because she's like oh you're home that's right you kind of have a normal job i'll beat you it's almost like a night and i got her pregnant so she was three months pregnant and then i went to afghanistan right um i'll tell the story because it just kind of illustrates the stress on a military family so we were going crib shopping she knows i'm going afghanistan the job again i was we knew

i was deploying when she was uh three months so we're going crib shopping and we went in like this is like the third store like i hate shopping so we're in like the third store and i see a crib i'm like this one. I want this one. Let's get this one. She's like, I want to keep looking around. And I'm like, well, I'm just going to stand here by this crib that I like, and you can keep walking around, and I'll be right here. And then she just broke down crying. And it had

nothing. Was this the first baby? Was this the first kid? This is a bad tactical. I know. That's what I'm telling the story. It was my mistake. People can learn from it. That's right. Better go walk around, look at some freaking cribs, dude. I know. I know. And so that's what she said. As she was crying,

I'm just going to stand here by this one. You go look around, come back when you're ready. I got it. I got it. Is it building relationships you were talking about earlier? So a bad move on my part. So then I had to usher her out. She's crying.

I felt bad. We got in the car and we drove home and it was like one of those really awkward intense situations. We ended up buying the crib online because we couldn't bring ourselves to go look for a crib again. And then I deployed, right? So I tell that story just to say, you know, I really wanted to go to Afghanistan, but these things come out of cost, right? So I got a pregnant wife who's trying to be very supportive.

She was supportive of me staying in. She was even supportive of me going to Afghanistan, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't come with some type of personal cost. So she's three months pregnant when you leave for Afghanistan. Yeah. How long is the deployment to Afghanistan? A year. Check. And did you come home for the birth of your kid?

So when it's a year, you get. already too long of an answer. You get two weeks, but I missed the birth, but I was able to come home like right as she, like four days after the birth, so right after she got out of the hospital. So I did get two weeks with them. But, I mean, having two weeks with a baby

after you've been in just combat every day for six months, knowing you're going back to that same place for another six months, it was real hard to establish any emotional connection. Because, like, I mean, that's just, it was, have rather not gone home, to be honest with you. Because when you're with them, your mind's there. When you're there, your mind's with them.

And so, yeah, in some ways it was good, but other ways it was very hard. So you go on deployment. Are you, who you with? So I got to... Is this like a solo operation? That's right. It was just Stushelter v. Talban. I got to Bogram Air Base, and that's where Jaito's task force was at.

So they called it Task Force Paladin, and I have to... Afghanistan. We got to Task Force Paladin headquarters, and they decided, because most Marines are familiar with Southwest, Helmand and Kandahar, but they didn't send me there. They sent me to R.C. East to support the 101st Army Division. And so I got out, the first unit I got to was a battalion called 3187, and they were in East Pactica province. And the fob I got to was Orgoon. and their company fobs were all so dispersed that any time we had to take them logistics, it was like a one-day road trip throughout Clearance Platoon and EOD, and anytime there was an EOD response, we had to fly out on the fly line.

I say that just to say it was very distributed. And like most people or Marines, a picture of Afghanistan is just like desert wasteland. It was like the Rocky Mountains where I was at. I mean, it was not what I was expecting. I got out there and I was like, this is, this is, this is. not the desert. And so you could see Pakistan from where we were at. It was just, it was a cowboy country. And then what were you doing? Well, I guess explain a little bit more detail. Yeah. So you get, there's a logistics supply that needs to go to some outstation. I'll illustrate

with one more story from that time frame. So one of the company fobs hadn't been resupplied in a while. And so they planned this, because in the July, August, it was raining a lot. And so when it rains, the aircraft couldn't fly the logistical supplies. And just because with all these jingled trucks, it was easier to move logistics. So we took this huge patrol. So I went with EOD and route clearance patrol and all these logistics trucks out to this company FOB

and dropped it off. And then when we got there, they said, hey, we've got this platoon outpost over here on the border near Pakistan that just hasn't had whatever in so many days. We really need you guys to push this stuff out here. We here at the company FOB don't have the assets. If you call back to the battalion, and they're like, yeah, if you can, that would be great.

So we do. So the next day, then we go from this company fob out to the platoon fob, and we left at like 8 a.m. So how many vehicles are you bringing with you? So you got... Just rough estimate. Route clearance platoon is probably a dozen. You got the EOD truck in there.

You've got... Are you guys in MRAPs? What are you in? Yeah. Everyone's in MRAPs? Well, it's MRAPs and JLTVs. Mix. But they also had...

A lot of logistic trucks were jingle trucks. You know what that is? It's like an Afghani flatbed. And then you've got the Afghan National Security Force, so they're all in their F-150 pickup trucks. And then you've got probably an infantry platoon or company for extra security that may be in just Humvees. And so it's this...

So this is a big convoy. Long collection of different players. Damn. And so we drive through, to get to these things on the border, there's not roads. You're driving through like the creek beds of the mountain crevices. And we get to there. And like, let's call it one or two o'clock in that.

So there's 15 vehicles, 20 vehicles? I'd say like 40. 40 vehicles to go out and resupply a platoon. Yes. Which, by the way, has 40 guys. Yes. So this is like, already you can see what this is like crazy shit going on. Yes.

Okay. So a 40 vehicle convoy with every type of vehicles, Mad Max, is driving out to resupply 40 dudes that are out. on the edge of the world. They were on the edge of the world, yes. And so it's maybe like 2 o'clock when we come out of the creek bed. And this is relevant to the story. When we came out of the creek bed, there was like five Afghanis sitting there with like their arms crossed staring at us.

And we're like, let's look at these nefarious characters. Like, what are these guys going to do? And nothing happened. And we were all kind of eyeing them. And that's relevant later. So we go into the FOP. We drop all the supplies off. It's like three o'clock.

And the call is made like, what do we do? It's 3 o'clock. I mean, it took us, like, do the math, 8 to 3 to get here. Do we want to go back or do we get to sleep here tonight? Again, 40 vehicles, like this little platoon outposts. We're like, so probably a bad call. I mean, in hindsight, 2020, obviously it was a bad call. But at the time, it just made sense.

We're like, let's just go. Like, you know, get back late. It'll be all right. So when we start driving back, now we're going back into that creek bed where those guys are. So now it's night time. No, it's like 3 o'clock when we leave. It gets dark soon. So we're going back in this creek bed.

and where those guys were standing, they had piled a bunch of rocks up to the creek bed. We're like, oh, obviously this is going to be an ambush. These guys... Piled a bunch of rocks as a marking mechanism or as a blocking mechanism. Great question. Okay, check. You know what I mean?

So we didn't ask that very intelligent question. We just immediately assumed ambush. Because that had happened to us before. So we're like, all right, these guys are going to ambush us. So you sit there, you got your eyes open, you're looking around. Nothing happens. And then it's just like, all right, well, let them trigger the ambush. Like, we're going to go through it.

And we went through it and nothing happened. And then we just didn't think through anything else. And we just started going. So we get, now it's dark. It's probably 8 o'clock. Are the Afghans, are you on night vision? Because I know you're on night. But the Afghan too, the jingo trucks are on night vision?

I can't remember. They were so far back that if their lights were on, I didn't see it. Check. I can't remember. It's a good question. I don't remember. So we were, it's now like eight or nine o'clock. It's dark and it started raining.

And I can't, it's hard to describe. It's almost as if somebody had broken a dam because it wasn't like the creek bed started slowly filling up. It was almost like a wave came down and hit the tires. This is like flash flood scenario out in the desert. And so, but it's still only at the tires and the MRAPs and the JLTVs go through it still pretty easily. But then we get the call on the radio.

that one of the jingle trucks had gotten stuck. You know, I can't even see it. That's so far back. So I'm like, all right. And your job in all this is like an observer? Or you're not in charge of anything, are you? I'm not in charge of anything, but it's weird because I outrank the platoon. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So you kind of are in charge. Right. You're in charge. In a way, yes. Right. And so we stop.

We're waiting for the jingle truck to unmess itself. And then all of a sudden it was like another damn broke. And then the water hit right to our grills, like almost immediately. And now it's a situation where you can't just get out of the car. And so we, a little backstory, we had killed Taliban members and taken their icons. And then we keep them. This is on the same operation? This is on a previous one.

Okay. So I'm telling the story so that you understand, we kept the icons in the patrol and we put it on scan. And when the Taliban started talking, we'd catch it on the scan. Then we'd hand it to the terp. the turp would interpret it, and then we'd pass over the radio, whatever was being said. So when we were in the flash flood, now we're like worrying about the water. It comes across the radio. Like, hey, the Taliban sees that we're stuck in the water and they're maneuvering to ambush on us.

Okay. Yeah. So now you're in a situation where it's like, all right, what's your poison? Like, because the machine guns are all hooked up to the trucks. But at a certain point, you might drown if you stay with the truck. you might drown just trying to get to the shore. So it's like, what do you do? Well, we all got up on the ruse of our trucks,

and the water kept coming up. And finally, I was like, I'm going to die from drowning before I die, getting shot with the Taliban, so I'm going to take my chances. So I slung my weapon, and I was the first one to jump in. I jumped in, I swam to shore. The current was ripping, but I'm a pretty good swimmer. I got over there, and then I started making rope bridges.

So I tied some rope up to a tree. I threw it to the truck. And then we started having guys shimmy in from the trucks over to the shore. And so then we passed this down and all the trucks start doing it. Well, what happened was one of the soldiers in the back got on a rope bridge. And when he, with the weight of him, when he got in the water, he panicked and he let go. And he didn't like clip in or anything. And so he rips downriver.

So then the call comes on the radio. Hey, we lost a soldier. He's done. He's gone. And this is an Afghan soldier, I'm assuming. No, it's an American soldier. An American soldier. Yep.

And the Afghan, so when he floats down river, one of the ANSF, the ANSF, CM2, the Afghan National Security Force, and so they all start talking about how they saw him. And he basically, from our last vehicle, they spot him, float by him, so we know he's still ripping down the river, right? So now you're in a situation where people start getting off the trucks. We know the Taliban's maneuvering. We've just lost this guy down the river, and it's like, oh, this is getting messy real quick. This is a little beyond getting messy. Yeah.

And so we try to call in air support. you know, because we've got a guy going down the river, all this stuff, and they deny it because it's raining, and it's red air, and so they say no. So I grab a bunch of guys, and I'm like, come on, follow me, we're going to go do a patrol, we're going to try and find this guy. And it's weird because they're not really my guys. So I got to, like, play diplomat and be like, can I have some of your guys to go do this? But I had a good relationship, so I was able to do that. And then it gets even weirder. so then the Taliban

passed over their radio that they had captured the American soldier so we got, we picked up chatter that the Taliban has the American soldier and so then we're all like man we got the acronym was Dust 1 sort of like we got a Dust 1 situation

so we call that over the radio and previously they said they wouldn't send aircraft but this time now that because we're right there on the border of Pakistan when Taliban's confirmed that they have one of our men they're like we're sending air support so they send this section of Apaches like immediately and it was awesome i mean it was a female section lady and i was listening to her on the

radio and she must have killed like 20 dudes and she was just like stoic like killed five secondary explosion RPG he's dead and like we were just watching her just like sweep this hillside just laying waste and um i'll just fast forward the end of this story what happened was the soldier we ended up finding him the next morning he washed down river he drowned and And we ended up actually having, we thought he had been rigged with the explosives. And so my EOD Tech put his bomb suit and walked up to him in the river and cut him down. And when he floated down river, I actually caught him and pulled him out. And I don't know if you've ever seen anyone that's drowned, but like their stomach expands and they get all these veins.

And what had happened was the Taliban, even though we were listening to them, they were monitoring the ANSF radios. And when the ANSF saw the soldier float by, they got on their. radios, the Taliban heard that, and then they, knowing that we were listening to them, passed misinformation to get into our loop. But, you know, when I reflect back on it, them doing that triggered the Apaches, which ultimately killed all of them. So it's just one of those situations that, I mean, so you asked me, like, what did we do? Like, there's a story of, like, you know, you leave that, and it was we're doing a resupply

for a platoon fob, and you just walk away from, like, that was. There's just a lot to unpack right there. So did the water eventually recede and the vehicles were able to drive after that? The next morning they went down and we were able to get all the vehicles out because we brought from external sources, some wreckers to help us pull stuff out. But they made us go up and down the river looking for the soldiers' rifle and NVGs, which we weren't going to find. But we spent probably until lunchtime the next day just walking through the water acting like we were going to find that. And finally somebody made the decision to stop. And then we got back on our traction left.

And what's the op tempo like for you? So that's one mission. That takes two days, three days. What are you doing after that? So, you know, then you go back to the company fob, maybe spend a day reset, and then you drive back to the battalion fob. And then I involve myself in the battalion battle rhythm, the meetings. I continue to offer advice.

But every time we're back at the battalion fob, anywhere in the battalion battle space where an IED is found and my EOD techs fly out there, I would go with them. I mean, I can just keep going for stories all day, but here's an example in that same space. There was a helicopter that was flying a ISO container of machine guns out to one of the outposts, and it pickled it, which means it, I don't know what happened, but they decided to drop the ISO container in the middle of the mountains. So they're like, hey, we need you go up there, check it out. We want to send EOD because there might be explosives in it. So we fly up there.

We get to the thing, see if we can re-slingload it. We can't. So we're like, we're just going to blow it up. They're like, no, you can't blow it up. It's got machine gun and stuff. And we're like, well, it's all burnt. They're like, it doesn't matter. You got to carry it out.

So I was literally carrying like two 50-cal receivers, like through the mountains. And it was all unusable, but they didn't want to leave it there. And we were supposed to fly out that night. So I didn't bring, this is such a stupid move. I didn't bring, like, warming layers or things for the next day. And, of course, because it took us so long to carry all that stuff, then it got dark, and then the aircraft didn't want to land in the mountains. So we had to spend the night up there.

And I almost froze to death. I remember the only thing we had was a body bag. And I slept in the body bag, spooning another man so that I wouldn't freeze to death. I mean, talk about in your head when you're like in the body bag, right? As you're doing these operations, what are you, what are your, you know, you mentioned that earlier when you're in Ramadi and you're handing out, you know, thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars to various people. and you're starting to think from a strategic perspective, this doesn't seem like maybe the greatest idea in the world. When you've got 40 vehicles going out to resupply,

40 soldiers out in an outstation somewhere, and the risks involved, and now you lose a soldier, which is freaking horrible, and now you're going to a mountain top to recover, destroyed weapons, because you're not allowed to blow them in place, what are your thoughts of this now? How long you've been in for at this point?

Yeah, so that was 11, so six, seven years. So you've got a little bit more maturity as a human and as a military officer. Are you starting to wonder what the hell's going on? Absolutely. I mean, you just outline really good points right there. I think what ate me the most when I took that 40 vehicles to that 40-man platoon, I could see Pakistan. I could see their bases.

I could see where they shot mortars at us from, and we couldn't do anything. So when you talk about strategic problems, like, does America really want to win this war? Like, I can see the fucking home base right over there. Like, why can't I go over there and kill them? And so, I mean, when I look back at the Afghan War, I can't wrap my brain around that. If I was going to put service members' lives at risk, I'm going to do whatever it takes to win the war. Or I'm not going to be there. But there was just a ton of things that we didn't do from a form of.

policy standpoint to allow the service members to win the war. It's criminal almost. And so, yes, standing there at the border of Pakistan, I remember looking at their home bases and just thinking, this is crazy. And then how long, this deployment is a one-year deployment? And in the middle of it, you go home, you miss the birth of your son, my first son, but you show up, what, two, three days, but after he's born? That's right. And now you're going through this transition of one day you're sitting there waiting to get blown up by an ID and the next day now you're sitting looking at the new crib holding your son yeah and I agree I know it's horrible to say but like the mindset of not wanting to be a part of that kind of while you're still trying to work I never you know

the in the in the Navy we go on six months maybe seven months maybe eight month deployments and I never went home from one of them you know the army would send guys home because they'd be on deployment God bless them for 12 months, 14 months, 16 months, it was mandatory that they would send guys home. And even like battalion commanders would go home for two weeks to give guys a break and give guys rest and let them see their families. But you go home, it's two weeks at home. I mean, are you able to adapt at all or is it just send me back?

I think maybe if your home life was consistent, there might be some utility in it. But when my home life had changed so much, like my wife couldn't even stay in her house because she had just had a kid. She was bedridden. She was at her moms. You know, I'm not able to take care of her. She's having to have her mom take care of her. So I've got to, for my two weeks, go stay at my mother-in-laws. I've got a new kid. I mean, it just, it was like I was living somebody else's life when I came home. And again, all you can think about is the constant combat you're going to go back to. And it was just a lot of. lot. You roll back over there and you just maintain this opt tempo for the year that you're there.

That's right. I mean, I ended up random operations, tag along on random operations. Well, I moved probably in October, November-ish. I moved out of Eastern Pactica and moved into a province called Ghazni. And there was a district called Andar. And so we built a base from the ground up called Andar Fob Andar and I moved to support 1-187 so I went from 3-187 to 1-187 and back then so this is in 2010 the Polish had run that AO for like two or three years and the Polish don't fire unless it's in self-defense don't do anything aggressively so that's why they put Americans there and so again you know we've been at war for at eight years at that point and it was almost like uncharted territory in the middle of Afghanistan I mean

Ghazni is like the economic center, you know, maybe outside of Kabul. And so for, you know, it's similar to Ramadi where, like, I went to Suea, and we've been in Ramadi for six years, and all of a sudden I'm using baby wipes, and we have no infrastructure, and it's like, it's like we've never been there before. I felt the same thing happened when I went to Fav Andar. It's like we're building it from the ground up, and it's even the kinetic threat. It was like no one had done anything. And that area was different than the first one I described.

because the first one was much more distributed, and it was just like these long day patrols. That one was very much like day and day out, day and day out, like foot patrol from the base or route clearance to just that adjacent little block over there. And so. So you were out, you actually moved to that outstation, to that fob. Yes.

And how big was that fob? How many people were there? Was it like a company fob? It was a battalion. Italian headquarters, but all their companies were in company outposts. So, I mean, there was only probably 200 people in it.

Did they have a company there that they were? utilizing for that a.O. That was running operations for them. Yeah, I understand the question. I think potentially one of the companies was in the battalion fob, because obviously somebody owned that battle space. I can't remember. And so then you're there, and you're doing the same thing.

You're going out on patrol, whoever's going out on patrol, trying to capture the ID information, sending that ID information back up the chain of command. That's right. Yeah, so a couple more stories just to illustrate that kind of what I did. One time one of the companies found a house full of, it looked like propane tanks, but it was like aluminum tanks filled with powder. Found like a hundred of them just didn't know what it was. And so they threw them all in a well. And then they took a picture of it, put it on a storyboard.

Wait a second. So the platoon's out on patrol. Yep. They find 100 aluminum tanks filled with random powder. Yep. They don't know what to do with it, so they chuck them in a well. That's exactly right. They did not misstate that.

Okay. And then, you know, young captain's. Scheller is reviewing the storyboards because I felt like that was the right thing to do again I didn't have a boss so it was like you know I was in general support of his battalion but I really could have done nothing had I chose to but I every day went through all the storyboards went through all the stigax went through all the stuff like was really trying to get myself that story right there like I could I could just imagine looking at one of my platoon commanders like okay tell me that again yeah yeah wait so what did you do yeah wait what was in them and you hucked them all in the well

and they were so ignorant they then took a picture of and put it in their story for it usually when you do something that like raises an eyebrow and you're like I don't know if I should have done that you don't include it on the storyboard it's sort of it put it in the storyboard it's one of those things where I bet a platoon commander can articulate you know well we didn't know what to do we couldn't carry him out we didn't want the enemy to use them the well was deep made the call sir yeah it's like okay roger that I'm having a tough time briefing us up the chain of command but I got your back check so it turns out it was aluminum powder so in that a So in the first one I was at, it was all potassium chloride.

There was a match factory in Pakistan, so all the IEDs were potassium chloride. But in this new AO, they used aluminum powder with ammonium nitrate. So we called that anal, actually. And so what they had in those containers was aluminum powder that they would mix with the fertilizer to make the IEDs. And so I identified it. I pulled the patrol together. We went out. And when we got into the house, like I'm literally holding this PowerPoint print out of the storyboard.

It's got a picture of the house and it's got a well in it And I'm like walking around there's no well I'm like, oh you're the right house? It's kind of dark What had happened is they the Taliban had come behind the soldiers And put like plywood over the well and then covered it in dirt To basically hide the aluminum powder that the soldiers had all thrown in there And so it took me like 45 minutes but finally I was like no no This is the house like this has to be like right here

And then you start kicking it you're like oh you know So then we we ended up disposing of all of that So there's one example of like what does a counter ID team leader do? You know, just caught that. And then the other thing I usually did was I walked the rails. So as an infantry guy, I would pull probably six or seven soldiers out of the route clearance. And on known routes where we found a lot of IDs, the time I got my Bronze Star, where we were walking down a route.

I'm on one side there on another side. And you could see guys messing with something on the road, like probably an ID, right? So, you know, we try to close a distance. this guy runs away, circles around, he's getting chased by my other guys on the other side of the street, and so he crosses the street while I'm running up the other side, and I was like one of those things where you like,

you both come around a corner and you're like face to face, and you both just like try and pick up your guns and somehow you both miss each other from like three feet away. And, you know, got behind a corner, killed a couple guys, and some machine gun fire went off. And there was at one point where, like, I just kept chasing people,

and I found myself like 200 meters away from even like the guys, I was with, maybe like, you know, a half kilometer away from the patrol and then like panic started to sit and like, oh, shit, like I'm kind of separated here. But I was able to bring the infantry up and link up and they got some mortars downrange. And the takeaway from the story is we uncovered seven IEDs on the route that day and rendered them all safe. And we were trying to do a complex ambush, right, with all those IEDs. And we were able to push them off.

But like, there's an example of like great tactical success. Like, what the. fuck did that do in terms of the overall picture. Like, I'm not really sure. Like, on the tactical level, I mean, that was an awesome play that we ran. But, I mean, I just got so many examples of that. And then I start studying the operational strategic levels. And I'm like, where was the connection to what we're trying to do?

Like, why are they still coming from Pakistan? You know, what is my political leaders doing? Like, are we trying to get rid of the Taliban? Or are we going after al-Qaeda? Yeah, there's so many questions. So you wrap up that deployment. Yep. you come home, how's coming home now that you're home home?

Yeah, so when I got home from Afghanistan, again, I was going to get out, but they offered me formal schools called Expedition and Warfare School. It's a captain of major school. It's a year. And I just thought, man, this deployment has taken a lot out of me, emotionally, spiritually. Like a year in school with a bunch of other warfighters of my peer group, probably really good for me rather than trying to jump into the corporate world. and so I took the EWS job instead of getting out, which was in Quantico.

You owe time after that. That's right. Right. Look at you. One step ahead of me. Yeah. So the catch to that is there's a two-year requirement on the backside. So by taking the EWS job, I then was required to go serve two more years as a company commander.

And this is going to get you out to how many years? Really gets me out to a career is what it does. But, yeah, it takes me in about 10 or 11 years. Yeah, 10 or 11 years. At which point a lot of guys say, hey, I've only got, you know, what is it? You look at, oh, I've only got eight more years and really how many tours is that? Plus, one of that last tours, a Twilight tour, so I really only have six years.

So people start negotiating and rationalizing, staying in, even if maybe it's not 100% what they're into at the time. That's right. Which is interesting because almost the whole time you've been saying you were going to get out, you're going to get out, you're going to get out. Which is weird. I never, I actually never thought I was ever going to get out until I got out. The whole time I thought I was staying in forever. I'm like, oh, I'm going to do 50 years. So watch this.

And then it was very abrupt for me, you know, when I was like, oh, you know what? I'm actually going to get out. And so I always thought I was going to stay in, which is, which was, I guess it was very easy for my decision making process because I was like, hey, what do you guys need me to do? Yeah. You know, what do you want me to go to that? Call go to that. Whatever. Let's go.

But you are always kind of. I think. It was like we started with the beginning of my story. I never had ambitions to go into military, and this was never what I thought I would end up doing. The reason I continued to stay in is because I found a lot of purpose in being a Marine officer, and I truly enjoyed it, truly enjoyed being around the service members.

So it's one of those things where I guess my self-image was never to be a career military officer, but I continued doing it because I found fulfillment in it. Yeah, and there's also something beneficial about someone that's not, considering that, oh, I want to be, you know, I always joke about the SEAL teams, because in the SEAL teams, if you ask a SEAL officer, a young SEAL officer, why they came in the SEAL teams, they answer, what's, what job do you want to do? I guarantee what they're going to say is, I want to be a platoon commander. I want to be a SEAL platoon commander. That's the, that's the, which by the way is like three years into your career. Yeah. You ask an army officer what they want to do. A lot of them will say, oh, I want to be a battalion commander. I want to be a battalion commander. I want to be. I want to be a brigade commander. I want to be a division commander. That's actually in their head. Seal officers do not have that in their head. Most seal officers don't have that in their head. And there's something that's kind of nice about someone that's in the army that just says, hey, you know, I want to be, hey, I don't have this big aspirations of being a general or a colonel.

They just want to go and do the job. There's some benefits to it. There's also some detractions to it because once guys in the seal teams get done with that platoon commander tour, a lot of them go, Okay, you know, I did that. And we've, in the SEAL teams, tried to extend the operational tour a little bit longer. You know, you can extend it. You can go a little bit longer and still do work. But eventually, it's going to dry up for you. And you don't get to be a battalion commander.

You give a SEAL team commander, but that's not the same as a battalion commander. It's really not the same as a brigade commander. Cool jobs, but it's not what people come in for. So the fact that you were sort of always thinking maybe I'll get out means to me, in a positive way, you weren't trying to maneuver for your career. Because there's a lot of guys that, oh, yeah, here's, oh, I need to do this billet. I'm trying to get this award. I'm trying to get this deployment so I can get promoted.

There are some people that that's what's driving their careers. And it's never, it's horrible to see. It's horrible to see what they do. And there's guys in the, certainly guys in the seal teams that are like that. That's their, that did have the goal of a platoon commander's just a step, just a stepping stone. because what they really want to do is they really want to make Admiral or whatever. Same thing can happen in the Army as well.

Same thing can happen in the Marine Corps. But for you, you're kind of like playing it by ear. Yeah. Which means you're not making decisions based on, hey, I'm going to look out for my career, which is a good thing in many cases. Yeah, I see that in Marsok, too, the problem you described with guys doing what they want to do

because a lot of Marsok guys want to be a team leader or, you know, want to be a company commander. Company commander is kind of the pinnacle where they then bleed off all the talent because the company commander at Marsac is a major, and then they don't stick around to be the battalion commanders that they need them to do. But I also see in the general infantry a lot of the counter to what you just said. There's a lot of guys that come in that have aspirations for being a battalion commander, have aspirations for being a general.

And you know, you kind of alluded to it. There may be some positives to that in terms of big thinking and, you know, speaking good about the system and figuring out how to navigate. the system correctly, but I honestly think the focus should always be on the service member and what's best for them. And I understand as a leader, I've been doing this for 17 years, the responsibility to the organization versus the responsibility to the service member. So I'm not saying in all respects a leader always should just be looking out for the service member. But I think when you get focused on how to navigate your career, it does cloud your perspective

on how to strike that balance. So nonetheless, you take the deal. You go, okay, I'm going to go expeditionary warfare school, and then I'm going to owe them two more years, so that's going to put you at 11 years, 12 years. Your wife's probably like, cool, at least this guy might be gone a lot, but at least he's got a job and we're getting a paycheck. Yeah, so as soon as I got back from Afghanistan,

she got pregnant with the same kid, so my two older boys are 14 and a half months apart. So that's like, you know, before Afghanistan, and then like first time getting home from Afghanistan. And then it was like, so I very quickly within nine months of being home from Afghanistan, went from like no kids to two kids. You know, so life was changing. And then we waited another couple of years and had my third son in between my next two deployments.

So how was expeditionary warfare school? I liked it. You know, the anxiety that I had after Ramadi came back full fled just after Afghanistan, started having different symptoms, started having like face numbness and my eye, my vision started getting blurred and everyone wanted to lump it into PTSD which I knew I wasn't struggling with PTSD I didn't have like bad dreams I'd feel bad about anything I did I just had like Tony Suprano-ish like real physical symptoms and it just people then the buzz phrase was PTSD and I just don't think people understood what anxiety was and I just had to work through that and so

I don't think I really understand what what you're talking about yeah so PTSD would be like oh I'm having trouble sleeping yeah I'm the hyper alert and all that. What's the anxiety piece? What's going on with this? And is it physiological? Yeah, it's both. So it's part hereditary.

It's part, you know, nurture nature. So also it's part experience. So I think the simplest way to just say it is once your fight or flight gets burnt enough, your brain starts producing different chemicals that it may not be if you're not under high stress all the time. And for me, it just took a while. to recalibrate. I had to get into yoga.

I had to get into meditation. I had to, you know, the best remedy is working out. So if you can work out, stay healthy and stay fit. But the problem is a lot of guys after these deployments fall under the false trap of like alcohol. And alcohol is one of those things where, you know, it can suppress some of those anxiety or things for a little bit. But what they don't realize is it comes back twice as worse the next day.

And so EWS is one of those like false hopes for me where I was like coming back. I hadn't been drinking for a year. And I was like drinking beer and, you know, feel good at night. And the next day I'd be like, oh, why do I feel so horrible? I was also getting older too, right? I'm in my 30s now. I'm not in my 20s anymore. And so I think part of it was just learning my body,

learning all the physical reactions that took place in the deployment and not allowing myself to just be bend in a PTSD category that may not apply to me, even though that's what I think everyone wants to label someone when they get back from something like what I had gone through. And, you know, it all worked out. I figured it out. It just took me reading a lot of books and talking to a lot of people probably more than I needed to to navigate it.

Let me ask you this. So if you get these like anxiety type situation and it's caused from some traumatic situation that you've been through and now this is post the traumatic situation. Isn't it like what you're talking about? I don't understand the difference between PTSD and what you're talking about anxiety. I think the way I distinguish it is PTSD, from what I've learned from the psychologist, typically manifest itself into guilt, shame, emotional struggling with some of the things that you went through that may have a psychological and physical impact on you. Anxiety, to me, think of it like you're about to do public speaking, and everyone has butterfly. but like a severe case of anxiety is almost like debilitating, right? And that those physical manifestations may not necessarily be tied to a trauma.

They may just be tied to the way, like you said, physiologically are built, or it may just be because you have experienced so many things that your brain is producing chemicals in an imbalanced manner. Now, I'm not a doctor, so somebody needs to check the stats on this, but I can tell you, having talked to many psychologists, there is a in the whatever that manual is, a major differences between the two. Okay.

And then you, as you're working out and you're doing yoga and you start to get through that, did that come after you went through the drinking phase of trying to get through it? I always worked out. Sometimes I worked out and drank. So I had to just get through the drinking thing and then just focus on working out.

Yeah. And this is all happening while you're at EWS. Yeah, correct. Learn anything good at EWS? What are you learning at EWS? EWS. A little bit more like operational level stuff. Yeah, I went to two formal schools.

I went to commanded staff later as a major. Command of staff is very varsity level, treat you like an adult. Here's all the reading, go read it, and we'll talk about it. Like, it was adult. EWS is like somewhere between you're still like in the basic training pipeline and you're like getting close to an adult, but we're not really sure yet.

So it's, you're treated as such. And there are a bunch of captains that aren't career yet that probably need to be treated like that but I think it gets generalized too much so there was a time where I was like I'm a professional I've been to like multiple wars like don't fucking talk to me like that what's EWS it stands for expeditionary warfare school it's like the captain to major PME so you don't have to go to the resident but you have to do the school so there's like box of books where you can get sent the books and get credit for it that way there's seminars where you can go to like night school for it so every captain has to go through it

to become a major but they select the top ones to go to go to the resident one-year course. And so that's where you got selected for. That's right. So your career's going pretty good at this point, actually. It was an indicator that I was on the right track. And what, that's a one-year school, where are you going at the end of that? Where'd you go on the end of that?

I went to 3rd Battalion Second Marines as a company commander. So it was a headquarters company commander where our deployment was another Mew, was 10 months, get on ships, sail around the ocean, and be ready to respond. And as a headquarters company commander on a Mew, I had like a recon platoon, I had an engineer platoon, and then I had like all the supporting establishments in the battalion. This was kind of an eclectic group of individuals. And then they also used me as like the future operations planner, if you will. So as the opsos on the ship, they'd send me to like Egypt or they'd send me to wherever to do

the planning for whatever that bilateral was. and so that was my 10-month deployment there that was a 10-month deployment yeah it was long shipboard deployment it was like right after the the Libya thing and the Benghazi thing

and because of that thing the Mew deployments had gotten like backed up something happened that messed up the deployment cycle because of that operation and so to like fill the gap my deployment was 10 months because they always went overlap

and so I don't remember fully understand why it happened, but they told us from the very beginning, like, this is going to be a long one, boys. And that was a shipboard deployment. It was. So you're living on a ship, which is good times. Yeah, something. But that's weird.

That's almost like for me, you know, because I came in before the war, that's like a normal deployment that we did back then. I did two deployments with the Marines on the Args out here on the West Coast. But it was like, hey, sail around, go to wherever we're going. Like I went to Egypt, I went to Oman, went to these various random places and did whatever exercises we're doing, people getting spun up about, whatever they're getting spun up about. You probably, did you create any PowerPoint brief story on that? Oh, dude. You know I did.

All right. So that's another deployment. And what comes after that? So then I get back and they actually, I was still a captain. And they tried to make me the operations office. officer. And I had to, the battalion operations officer? Yeah. So I had actually gotten the top company commander, fitness report as the headquarters company commander, which is kind of rare. So I think it just speaks to my battalion commander really liked me, thought highly of me. And so he tried to make me the

operations officer, and I wasn't selected that year. So I was going to be in zone the next year. And regiment's like, brother, we got like five majors sitting on the deck up here that need key billet. Like if you're going to make a captain that's not even selected, like we're going to give you a major. And so he came back to me and was like, hey, like this is what happened. So you're not going to be the op-so. What do you want to do? Do you want to stay in the battalion? You've already done your company commander tour, or do you want to go somewhere else?

And in my community, headquarters company commander is like one of those weird ones where you can hide somebody there. And so it's not always the best guy. And so, like, in terms of street cred in my community, I didn't want people to think I was just a headquarters company. Nobody commander, right? And so I was like, you know, I got to, no, I'm going to stay here and I'm going to go be the weapons company commander. So they offer me weapons company, which is like the probably the best company commander usually in battalions. And so that's what I did. So I was a weapons company commander for the next year and a half. Did you do a deployment? How's the way? I did. So we did a deployment. It's called a unit deployment program. So we went to Okinawa. And the purpose of it strategically is to be involved in the war plan. If North Korea were to do something. But all we really do is try to prevent our Marines from getting drunk and getting in. fights and then we'll take them into Japan and go into Tokyo. We went into South Korea. And that's a six-month deployment? Six months. What number deployment was that for you? Five. Including one of those was a one-year deployment. Yeah, one was a year, one was 10. Rob Madi was seven. And then the first me was six and the UDP was six. So it all comes out to,

I mean, about four years. Yeah, all the stuff up. And then after that, what's next? Yeah, and what's crazy too is with all those deployments, like that was middle of 15. Then I got promoted to major and I never deployed again. So quite honestly, all of that one was through my captain time, which is even what made it crazier. And so I got promoted to major and the monitor at the time was actually the company commander of my platoon commander, buddy who got blown up in Romani. Guy's name was Eric Clark and I knew him real well. And so we had a special relationship and he had selected me for a place called PPNO. It's like plans, policies, and orders. And in the Marine

Court, it's a very prestigious billets. So it's like one of those bullets that if you do well, you can go on and be a general officer. So if you're a guy that is playing the deep game like you described, like, that's the job you want. And I, at this point, I had decided it was going to be a career. So after 3-2, I was like, this is, I'm going to go to 20.

And I just had no desire to sit in a basement cubicle in the Pentagon and you know, design a new helmet or whatever I was going to do, right? I just, I couldn't do it. And like you said earlier, like I loved teaching and I loved idealistic young officers. So I asked him if I could go to the basic school.

And he obliged because he had a lot of people that wanted to do PPNO. So he cut me orders to the basic school. And I tell that story about I knew him because it's not usually that easy to just talk to your monitor and say, no, I don't want that. I want this and have it work out. But in that situation, it did. And so he got me orders to the basic school. And I got back from the UDP in July of 15.

And then I off cycle moved in October 15. and I bring that up just to say my kids and I have three kids at this point. The two older ones are in school and I didn't want to pull them out of school. So I actually geobatched to just again more distance, right? So I'd get back from that deployment and then I went and was living in a condo in D.C. And driving back to North Carolina on the weekends for nine months until the following summer when I moved them up. All right. So the basic school, this time you're on the other side watching people.

go through. Is that a good, to me, that sounds like a good learning experience, seeing people how they react from a leadership perspective and from a psychological perspective. That's right. Yeah. It's great. The basic school is all taught by officers. So unlike School of Evitry, where the instructor is primarily enlisted at the basic school,

the primary instructor is the officer. So even as a major, they sent me through a pretty good training regimen, and I had to get qualified to train every single thing. So it's like they have a different quality. qualification for each subject that you attempt to teach. And so they do a really good job there. I got to be the operations officer, a company commander, and the war fighting director. Operations officer and war fighting director are typically lieutenant colonel billets, but I just got the opportunity because at that time they didn't have the lieutenant colonels and they chose me

to fill both of those billets at different times in my three or two were there. So, I mean, I really got a great run out of that. And not to kind of like focus on this, you haven't really brought it up a little bit, but just to kind of, because of where this story ends up, your career's like going really well at this point. Yeah, I mean, as... You mentioned you were the number one platoon commander. I didn't mention it. As the weapons company commander, I got submitted for the Left Witch Award, which is,

you know, best company commander in the Marine Corps. I didn't win, obviously, but just to have my battalion commander submit me up through the regiment and division for that was an honor. And then, yeah, at the basic school, like the monitor tried to send me to PPNO and gave me exactly what I wanted at the basic school. And then when I got to the basic school, they made me the OPSO. I said a brand new major, which is a normally lieutenant colonel's billet. And then I did a company commander tour.

And then it was a new CEO. And then the new CEO hand chose me to be the warfighting director. And so, yeah, I mean, I think I was very competitive. Now, again. What were your fit reps looking like this whole time? I'm all top. I mean, if we want to skip forward, the judge in my case was like, I've never seen a record. So exemplary and also high marks.

So there's an impartial guy. that looked at all my reports and it's like this is the best I've ever seen. So but you got to keep in mind like I said earlier at the basic school the best captains went to TBS or went to IOC. And when I was at TBS I was a major. The best majors don't always go to TBS, the best captains do. And so I was a little off track. And when I, the reason is coming out of Ramadi, number one, I didn't have anyone that used to be in the military. There's a lot of people in the military today. I think nepotism is prevalent in like a general sons or at least had a regimental father. and they don't get a free pass, but they understand the key billets that they need to go to,

and they understand the relationships that need to be harnessed and developed. And so these small advantages in the beginning turn into bigger advantages over time. So I guess my point is, when I went to school of infantry as a young captain, that didn't help me at all as a professional. And probably even going to Afghanistan on an IA billet where I didn't get a report from a Marine didn't help me at all in terms of career progression. So like that whole three years where it was very important to probably separate yourself, I just didn't do.

But going into my three, two company commander time, because all those experiences I had did make me a very effective leader, I was able to really shine as a company commander. And those reports were really what stood me, got me starting to separate from the pack. And then as a major at the basic school, again, same thing. So in those six years, it was like, I think that's when people started looking at my record and saying, who's this guy? But I think most of my other peers that, and there's a lot of peers that I have that are, I will admit, much better than me.

I mean, smarter than me, more talented. And so I look at some of my peers, and I'm just always impressed. And I just always want to aspire to be like some of these guys. But some of those guys were put on tracks early, kind of hand-selected for things early, that I just don't think anyone knew about me until later in my career, probably. Similar stories to OCS and TBS, right? I show up on day one and I'm lost. And by the end, people are like, look this guy.

Maybe he's not as lost as we thought he was. I think my career is almost the same story. So you get done with being the basic school instructor and then it's off to, is that when you went to Command and Staff College? Yep, yeah. And now, so now you're in it to win it. Oh, yeah.

Once I got to the basic school, I was in it to win it. So, yep, I went to command and staff, got selected for school. And it was nice because I was already up in Quantico. Is it hard to get selected for school? It's not, there's two things. One, you've got to be competitive. So probably in the top 40%, which really isn't that much, but top 40%, and then you have to be, the timing has to make sense, right?

So there's a couple factors of place. Not always the best. Sometimes it's just about timing. And how long is this? How long are you go there for? Command of Staff's a year. a solid year and again now you're going to owe time but you don't care at this point because you're doing a career your wife's on board with doing a career she loves the stability she's

looking at retirement yep she's like we're set for life she never said that I think we're over selling it now but yeah she I mean kids are all in school now so my youngest is now in preschool three kids in school they're still young enough that we want some stability and my goal actually was to go back to lejeune so when I was there as a captain I had bought a 50 acre piece of Timberland that I've got four wheelers and stuff that I keep on it. And then we still own my house in Jacksonville. So I had two properties still in North Carolina when we were up in D.C. And so my goal after command of staff was to get back to North Carolina and just remain there until retirement.

And so that was kind of my play. Now, some of the more conflicted thoughts you had when you were in Ramadi, when you were in Afghanistan, are those, are you kind of just dealing with those as in like, hey, that's the way it is sometimes. You know, I can do a good job. I can try and mitigate that stuff in the future. When you're at Command and Staff College and you're talking about now more senior level, strategic level things, are you having considerations around those things? Are you having discussions around those things?

Do you feel like you've sort of accepted that that's the way the system works and there's some benefits to it and there's some negatives to it and you can, as you get more senior, you can focus more on the benefits. Where are you at mentally? Yeah, that's a great question. So at Command and Staff, you can do a master's. I think it's part of the curriculum now. When I went through as a student, it was like an option.

You didn't have to do it because it required extra classes and a thesis to write on your own time. So some people just wanted the downtime and chose not to do it. But I wanted the master's. I wanted to challenge myself. And most instructors there implore almost. like they drive you towards writing something about like the tactical level, small squad unit level, like insightful novel idea. I wanted to write about foreign diplomacy and how it was broken.

And I had been working on the small tactical level at the basic school for three years. Like I was the war fighting director for the year previous. Like there's probably no one more qualified to write some type of thesis, 20 page paper, easily on how to do that. But it just didn't interest me. And so I was reaching for foreign diplomacy. And my instructors, my PhDs told me, like, every year there's somebody that comes in here and talks about how the Goldwater Nichols Act needs to be revamped and just the same old stuff.

And, you know, my counter to that was like, well, it hasn't fucking been fixed yet, has it? And that there's probably nothing more important when we're still losing wars. And so despite all the pushback on it, I wrote, you're only supposed to write 20 pages. And the parameters of the paper were minimum of 20 papers. no more than 80 pages. So I wrote 65 pages. Like, I just couldn't stop writing. And I gave it to my instructors,

and they just handed it back to me, like immediately, like, 65 pages. I'm not going to read this. It's like, you guys assign 80 pages a night of reading. 80 pages a night. I just spent months writing this. And you can't even give me the time to say these parts of your paper

don't add value. Like, you won't even, like, read it. to make it less. And so that's what I was up against. I was like I felt like as an officer, I wanted to be challenged academically. And I just, I didn't get it from the PhDs.

So I did. I made it 30 pages, got my master's checking the box, and then nobody ever read the paper again. Did you learn any good information at Command and Staff College? Was it helpful? Oh, yeah.

I do think the, you know, like if you're saying, command of Staff College, is there value in it 100%. the real question is could it be better and yeah it absolutely could be better but it's always easier to find ways for it to be better i think from like 30 years ago what they have now is you know world's better than what we used to have like they have small groups they facilitate good discussions they really challenged my thinking on the wars i mean we went back um to like frederick de great

and prussia all the way through napoleon and civil war and modern day and i think they did a really good job but they didn't go in it too deep on anything and they challenged challenged me. And like Henry Kissinger's book, Diplomacy, I had never opened it up, and they really pulled a lot out of there that challenged me. And I believe in realism, and I don't think American foreign diplomacy has really gotten to that level. And it's been like explored a little bit. But again, they just exposed me to a lot. I think it's really incumbent upon the student that wants they're exposed to something to then really get the education on their own. And it takes independence to be able to do that. If you just go through the motions of what

the school ask, you'll get very little out of it. Was there any paradigm shifts in your thought while you were there? No. My problem in an education system is I always start to get a little frustrated because there's like a system to the education system. And if you haven't figured out about me, I'd like to challenge things. And at a certain point, people don't want to hear it and you're just becoming a pain in the ass.

And so there's like a line that it's different for every person, every boss I've ever had, says, I want honest feedback. What does that mean to you? Like, well, I guess I'll find out through trial and error of giving you honest feedback. And there's going to be a certain point where I'm going to either read through your face or through your emotion or what you're saying to me that I've gone too far and now I'm starting to annoy you. And then that's when you know you've got to back off. And so I always find myself in the small group discussions. Like, I can dominate any conversation with my opinions, but there's a time where you've got to read the room and understand you need to be a passive listener.

And so that was probably my struggle with it. I just felt like some of my views went counter to what they were trying to teach. And if I was to get too aggressive with it, it seemed to be counterproductive vice discussed. And so a lot of it has to do with counterinsurgency. You know, the same thing as the EWS. Like I just, the way you win, the way you fight a counter or the way you fight an insurgency is to not get involved in an insurgency. And that requires deeper thought on the operational and strategic levels.

And we've just celebrated these generals for the last 20 years that have wrote the small wars manuals or reinvented the small wars manuals and counterinsurgency manuals. And there's a time of place where we as military tacticians need to understand how to do it. Absolutely. 100% agree. I read all the books. Got it. But to just continue to engage them for multiple decades without like real metrics of effectiveness or exit strategies, Afghanistan withdrawal is just the perfect example. I mean, there couldn't be a better historical example of how that was just.

just terribly executed, and it's just a symptom of a much larger problem. And so a lot of these opinions I had in command of staff solidified through my paper. And, you know, I left there. I told the story about me handing the paper to the PhDs because that's just another example of like, no one really cared. They were there to expose you to the things that they were exposed to, but they didn't look at like where Stu Scheller was academically and say, how do we get Stu Scheller individually to be more challenged and developed to where we need him to be.

And maybe they don't have the bandwidth to do it, but you know, you look at the great military minds of history like Klausowitz. He had a guy named Sharnhorst that was a military professional that sat there and knew where Klausowitz was, met him there, and then challenged him specifically. And I just, I sometimes wished I had that. So you wrap up at that school. Yeah. And then where are you off to? And then I, so I told the story of I wanted to get back to North Carolina. So I told my monitor, different monitor now, don't have a relationship with this guy.

And so I had seen them on two road shows, which is like yearly the monitors go around and you get an opportunity to shape what your desires are going to be when you're a mover. So I told them two years previous, I went North Carolina. I don't care. I went North Carolina. And no one really wants Camp Lejeune. So usually when you say Camp Lejeune, it's like, all right, you got it. But, you know, I had spent my whole time in Camp Lejeune and Quantico. I had never been out to the West Coast or anywhere else.

And so I knew there was a chance that the Rain Corps was going to start to say, brother, you've homesteaded too long. So then I saw him the year before, same thing. And so he said, all right, I'll tell you what's due. If it's not North Carolina, I'll call you. And keep in mind, I didn't do my opso billet based on that story I told. And as a major, you had to do what's called key billet. And for an infantry officer, that's opso or exo.

So coming out of command staff, they're like, you have to be an exo to remain competitive. And so, I mean, everybody got orders in like January, February, March. I mean, I got to like the end of March. We're talking like you're going to move in June. And I still haven't even talked to this guy. Like all the school registration is in like January. My wife's asking me every day. And I'm like, you know, I don't know what to tell you, babe.

I don't. So I finally, because I knew this guy's real busy. But finally I just broke down and I called him. And I was like, hey man, in March, everyone in my command of staff class has orders except for me. You told me you would call me if it wasn't Camp Lejeune. So I'm assuming I'm still going to Camp Lejeune. Can you confirm? and he's like no campbell's

filled he's like but good news we have availability in 29 palms are San Diego and I'll let you pick and so I got off the phone with him I know exactly where I was I was at Panera and I was still writing my master's thesis at the time so I was like I used to go to Panera and just write and so I'm sitting in Panera just mad

and I'm thinking about all the property I got North Carolina and how like I've been telling my wife it would be North Carolina for two years now. And so I wrote them an email. Email is a little bit easier for me to not be as emotional because I can kind of edit it. And I wrote, but I want to put it in writing. And I was like, hey, man, I'm putting this in writing for you. I'm going to forego key billet. There's got to be a sexual assault officer or some other thing in North Carolina that you can give me. It's in writing, make it happen. Then I hit send. And like, you know, you got to understand like how

how scary it is to do something like that because I essentially said my career is over in the Panera, but I won in North Carolina. And so then he called me back. He's like, this is what he said. He said, I got your email. I'm going to give you exactly what you want. And then he hung up. Oh, my God. I was like, oh, man. Yeah, I'm going to be the sexual assault officer of second reing division like this is. And I'm going to have to go back and look at all my peers and they're all going to talk about where they're going to be battalion exos or battalion officers or wherever. And I'm going to tell them what crap job I just got because of what I did to myself. and I know what he did then

because the monitor has two responsibilities he's got a responsibility to the Marine Corps he's got responsibility to you as a person and the monitor's job responsibility to the Marine Corps is to keep competitive officers competitive so then he went he didn't know me from Adam so after that he went through my record and as he was going through my record

he probably came to the realization like shit this guy's pretty good if I bury him in a staff job in second Marine division then I end his career and he had a responsibility to keep me competitive but he also knew that I had like dug my heel in, you know, I wasn't going to California without, like, probably, you know, screaming at the top of mountain.

So he was in, like, a no-win situation. And so that's how I ended up at Mar-Soc. So he wasn't advertising a Mar-Soc support battalion X-O, and he had that kind of hidden on the shelf. And so he called me back, and he was like, hey, I've got a Mar-Soc-support Battalion X-O. They're actually asking for infantry officers. I haven't made a public. It's not really key billed, but maybe it is kind of because it's still a battalion X-O.

It's just not an infantry battalion. He's like, would you be interested in that? I was like, fuck yeah. North Carolina, Marsog, this all worked out. Thank you, you know. And so that's how it happened. And so I took second Marines,

MRSB, Marine Raider Support Battalion, is what it was called. And so the way it works is Marsac's got three battalions, and then they have three support battalions. The support battians have their logistics common intel Marines. And they basically just do a six-month workup just in the MRSB, and then they aggregate them to the MRB, unit and then they do six more months and then so it's like a full year of training and then they deploy

as that aggregate team and i was the exo so all i did was facilitate the teams on their timeline but i was there for a year so quite honestly i only saw like one full cycle and then other cycles in a state of did you go on deployment or no so while i was there because they only have three battalion commanders and so they actually the battalion commanders of the support battalioners are actually badged marsock guys and so they have in that sense they have six battalion commanders so marsock has at any time six commands selected battalion commanders and so the so diff downrange they have a cycle of when those guys go down there and control command that unit they actually while i was the exo took my battalion commander to be in charge of the sodif so he doesn't deploy with the battalion he only deploys with like maybe five key guys and then some other people from across the regiment so i was essentially the battalion commander

for majority of the time while I was back there, but I never deployed. So I just sat there in courthouse bay with my battalion, his battalion, but I was acting. And it was really, it was a good time. I truly enjoyed it. And why was that bill on me a year? Because I got selected to Lieutenant Colonel. Yeah, good question. I would have stayed in Marsok until I retired, to be quite honest with you.

But I got selected to Lieutenant Colonel, and I actually went to the Manpower Meeting, so it was the acting CEO and the XO. And in the vampire meetings, so like I heard it from the horse's mouth. They're like, we don't have, we're filled up with lieutenant colonels that are badged. Like, we can't accept any non-batched lieutenant colonel. So you got still go, a kid. So I. Was your wife during that year? Was everything going cool there?

Yeah, everything was good. She's kind of stoked. She's in North Carolina. It's all good in the hood. I thought we had a sweet spot then. You know, once we got back to North Carolina, we were in our house. It was familiar territory. I was happy with my job at Marsok.

Kids are in school now. She has a little bit of, like, sanity. Yeah, I mean, it was good. Things were good on the home phone at that point. And so then what happens when you make Lieutenant Colonel? Where do they send you? So, I mean, I knew. I found out I got selected in, like, October.

So I'd only been at Marsock for, like, three months. So, like, within three months of taking the job, I was looking for the next job. And so I had some buddies that were up in division, second bring division, which was still local. And so I basically started putting out fuelers, and I was like, hey, I'm going to have to move. I'll take a staff job up there.

got my ex-o job being the ex-o head of Marsaq Support Battalion, so I don't need key billet anymore, I don't think. So if you guys could take me, I'd appreciate it. And then I finished the year at Mar-Soc. And in that spring, the chief of staff of Mar-Soc, so an 0-6 talked to the chief of staff of the division, who was in 0-6, the chief of staff, both of those gentlemen are generals now, actually.

And between that conversation, they decided to make me the six Marines opso. So I don't know how that shook out. I don't know if it was because they just thought I was that talented or because I hadn't done key billet in an infantry battalion that they wanted to give me the regimental opso to make me more competitive. That's right. But either way, I mean, a pretty important job. There's only two regiments in the division. So to be the operations officer of one of them was a big deal.

So then I did that for the next year before I was selected to battalion command. And then what happened once you got battalion command? So I got selected battalion command shortly after getting to the regimental opso job. So, but the regimental offset job, just to paint a picture going into the story we're about to tell, I mean, it was, the Marslock job was awesome. Fulfilling, manageable hours, good work. The regimental opso job was like 20 hour days. We spent two months at an ITX, which is in the Mojave Desert, where it is just expected that, like, I don't eat. I have tobacco and I just drink energy drinks.

It's almost like I'm looked down upon it. That's not how I conduct myself. and it just it took a lot out of me and my boss was not very appreciative most of the time and I got into some like this is kind of at the point of my career where I started really pushing back so like as a as a first lieutenant as a exo and Ramadi when my battalion commander was kind of verbally and even at times physically abusive like you just kind of took it and in my head was like this is wrong but as a regimental opso as a 40-year-old man if you start telling me like I'm gonna I'm gonna what do you say I'm gonna fucking fillet you I'm gonna

fucking cut you in half that's when I'm like bitch fucking come bring it what fuck you gonna do you know like these are the conversations we would have and it's and it's like dangerous right because and I had these with multiple 06s like I don't know what it is about regimental commanders but they they just felt like they could talk to me like like I was a piece of shit and I just got to a place in my life and my career where I just wouldn't be talked to like that. And so it created this unhealthy tension. And then when I would push back on some of these conversations, you would think that after like a couple days, it would actually be like a steam release. But it almost like, it almost was like seen as a threat. And it would almost increase

the pressure where then they would come back and want to like reassert dominance, which would then want to cause me to like reassert like fuck you and it just became unhealthy and everyone could see it and so you just got to understand that like that's what I came out of after a year of just being overworked to like almost like fist fighting a couple of times and then going into my battalion commander's seat so you you're you're having clashes with regimental commanders oh yeah and as this is happening are you thinking yourself like, all right, maybe I need to maneuver a little bit here. You know, I spent a bunch of time at Expeditionary Warfare School learning about maneuver warfare and not to attack, you know, hardened positions head on.

And here I am engaging in verbal battles with my boss. Yeah. Do you ever think like, well, maybe I should have taken a different tact? So when you have certain people with certain expectations, so you can just, not push back and try and do it an artful way, but that type of person is still going to expect you to work 22-hour days and be unappreciative when you do get to bust your ass to get the product to them, and then the follow-up question once you finally get that product is,

where's the next product? And so sometimes you get a boss that just no matter what you do, whether it's soft diplomacy or whether it's verbal fighting back, you're just not going to probably change that person. So the point you're making is like pick your battles and be smart. But the point I'm making is at a certain point in my life, I just refuse to be talked to a certain way. And so was that good for my career?

Was that good for my mental health? I don't know. But like I just, I kind of solidified who I was, what I was capable of, and how I was going to be treated. And that was the bottom line. And I had certain values that I wasn't going to compromise. And I didn't care what it meant for my career.

I mean, I've got a couple stories where, like, I basically try to throw my career rate a couple times because I was like, this is important to me. Like, this is important to me. And, you know, you can think about what you want, but when I think something is right, like, I just don't back away from that. What kind of thing would you put your kind of, you know, draw a line in the sand on? In terms of... Like, regimental commander where you're like, you know what? I'm done with this.

There was one time... There's one time at ITX. And so the culminating event and all... in the service for the Marine Corps at ITX is called MWX, MNover Warfare Exercise. And one regiment gets two battalions, and then one battalion, given hyper-enabled capabilities, it's free force-on-force. Now, it's supposed to be free, but there's a lot of rules that almost drive the schema maneuver. But, I mean, it's the closest thing we get in terms of, like, I as a regimental opso,

with two battalions, with LAR, with artillery, and with a whole. exercise force that determines who got killed and who doesn't get to build a plan. But it's also like high stress. And so most of our COC was back in the rear where I thought the regimental commander should have been. But old generals and colonels think that they need to lead from the front. And in doing so, actually probably put a lot more risk on the system. And they're not comfortable sitting back in a COC that has probably the capabilities that we need. And so what that caused was him coming out with a forward capability that I had. And in signature management, when you're trying to not turn on certain things or turn them on

in a systematic way that disguises your digital footprint, he and I were sitting in this tiny little COC that I made out of the back of a trailer. It was just one of those situations where I got like six computers. I'm typing on all of them. I'm trying to control battalion ops of different LAR platoons. I'm trying to worry about my signature management, and he's yelling at me to do something, and I'm, like, quickly answering him while trying to do all these different things.

And there was just, like, one situation where he snapped, started screaming in front of everyone. And I looked at him, and that was a situation, like you were talking about maneuver warfare. I didn't say anything. I just walked out. It was just like, we're going to fight. So I walked out. I took like 20 minutes and I came back in and then he like hey up so like maybe you should just

chill and get some sleep and that was his way of saying like maybe he went too far like trying to offer me some sleep and of course I'm stubborn I'm like no I don't need sleep I'm just fine and like I talked to some of my guys after because he did it in front of everyone and a couple of my guys were like I can't believe you didn't hit him like I can't believe you had the balls to just walk away like I wouldn't have done that so there were times but I guess I'm just giving those examples because it's like, man, it's just, you're exhausting me. So it is what it is. So you're in that job as the regimental operations officer

when the Afghanistan withdrawal was down. Is that right? Yeah, so another relevant piece of the story is eighth Marines. We used to have three regiments in the division, and eighth Marines dissolved. And so one eight actually got aggregated into six Marines. So I was the regimental officer. that took 1-8, re-aggregated them, and then made sure they had all the supplies that they

needed to go out on deployment. So, like, I was working with their Opso and XO, like, on the daily. And so I was very familiar with that unit that got on the Mew that ultimately responded to the Kabul incident. And so that's part of it, right? 1-8 was my first unit, if you remember, where my best friend got hit with the suicide vest. And then 1-8 was in my regiment that I, as the ops-o kind of man-trained and equipped as much as the higher headquarters does to send them out on that deployment. And then I was selected to Batank. man. So in June, I went over to school of infantry and took Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. And that was in like mid-June. And, you know, August 26th is when the, uh, the S-Fest attack occurred.

So in June, you were going to school? You went to school? No, I commanded a battalion that was out of school. So it's called Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. And so that's the place where if you want to go through sniper school, if you want to go through advanced squad leader school, if you want to go through advanced mortar school, all the advanced infantry schools are housed under that instructor cadre of the battalion that I commanded. All right. So just to get into Afghanistan a little bit, just to get, well, not to get into a little bit,

but to put some context around it, February 2020, Trump makes a conditional deal with the Taliban that we're gonna withdraw. September 2020, the Afghan government and the Taliban hold talks in Doha, the talks break down. they're not making any progress, but America still continues this withdrawal plan. February 2021, U.S. and Afghan government officials warn everyone that the Taliban is not abiding with the agreements. They're doing offensive things.

They're making maneuvers. April 14th, Biden changes the withdrawal deadline from May 1st to September 11th, which is, let's face it, you don't pick the date September 11th out of a hat. There's some kind of a symbolic gesture that the Biden administration wanted, which is, hey, September 11th, this thing's over. April 15th, the Taliban says, oh, you guys reneged on what you said you were going to do. You said you're going to grab out by May. Now you're saying September, we're going to take countermeasures.

May the Taliban starts doing exactly what they said. They start increasing attacks, increasing in scale their attacks, increasing in frequency, their attacks. June 6th, U.S. contractors begin pulling out. And when you pull out contractors, now the Afghan forces, and this is where you really start to see some of the problems that are going to occur. Because when you pull out these American contractors that take care of gear and supply replacement, gear all of a sudden all that's gone and this includes you know vehicles planes aircraft drones helicopters everything that they've got all of a sudden they don't have the the capacity or the know-how to keep it to keep it running July 1st America closes Bogram airfield like in a

really kind of weird way of just leaving just just just kind of kind of up and left without telling him. Didn't even tell the Afghan that that was going to happen. The Afghan government that was going to happen. Just did it. And by the way, Bagram is a, you know, is a great logistics hub.

It's a big, massive airfield. It's well supplied, well supported. How long has it been there for? 20 years? You know, 19 years, some incredible amount of time.

So it's in a relatively secure area, fully functional. And we just kind of leave it. July 8th, Biden. says he's confident in the ability of the Afghan military to ward off the Taliban and fight the Taliban and defeat the Taliban. July 23rd, the Taliban starts applying pressure. President Ghani is now not just asking, but almost a begging for U.S. assistance.

There's a conversation that Biden had with Ghani. and he says, and I don't know if I'll nail the quote, but he's saying that the perception is in the world that things aren't going well, and Biden says, hey, whether it's going well or not, we need to project a different picture. August 6th, Taliban takes full control of their first province. And now this is in direct violation of what they said they would do

in the deal with America. August 15th, Taliban takes control of Bogram. no resistance they just walk in there they there's a prison there they free a bunch of these high-level prisoners from various anti-Afghan government and anti-American forces they also enter Kabul that day president ghani flees bailes out apparently with a bunch of money and i will never get over the irony of the fact that president ghani was this kind of academic individual that had written a book called Fixing Failed States, a Framework for Rebuilding a Fractured World. And in that book, he uses examples like Oregon, the state of Oregon in America, a first world country.

And that's how he talks about using examples of how to fix failed states. August 16th, Biden comes on and says, well, you know, the Afghan military is falling apart because they're cowards. and their political leaders are weak. August 17th, allied governments complaining about the lack of communication and coordination from America. So they start their own rescue missions, and we're hearing a lot about that. August 23rd, the director of the CIA, William Burns, meets with the Taliban leader with Baradar, to discuss the evacuation. So we're trying to sort of save what we can piece together some kind of an extraction plan. That's on August 23rd, on August 26th, suicide attack.

11 Marines, one soldier, one Navy corpsman killed. The Marines apparently, there are reports that they knew that this attack was coming. There's even some sources that say that the Marines, Marines were saying, hey, we got to put up a stronger perimeter. We got to push the perimeter out. And they got told no. So that happens. That's on August 26th.

And that is when you reached a point where you felt you needed to speak up about that. Yeah, a couple other events in that timeline from at least my perspective. So as the service members were watching all that play out real time in social media on the news, Everybody was getting very upset, rightfully so. And so one date you didn't mention was 17 or 18 August. The common out of the Marine Corps released a white letter that said, hey, I know a lot of you are struggling, but I want you to know your sacrifices were worth it. And if you're struggling, go see the therapist.

You can Google it. I just summarized the whole thing. And I read that and thought, this guy doesn't get it. The reason people are upset is not because they think they're sad. sacrifices aren't worth it. The reason they're upset is because the leaders have failed in this withdrawal and that is undermining all their sacrifices. And he didn't address that at all and a handwave of going to the therapist is not good enough. So you're going to understand like I read that and it just just kind of started eating at me. And then the other thing that you have to know

is I've heard from the generals without naming names. I've heard this story many times. Following Vietnam, there's two Commandants, Commandant Wilson and Commandant Barrow. And what they did was, and this is what's told today, fix the service. They focused on cleaning up the draft class, the drug users,

and making sure they could fix the failures from Vietnam. Never does anyone talk about the operational and strategic failures that occurred at the general officer level at Vietnam that never got addressed. And what's happening right now, at least the Marine Corps, with the shift in the tactical focus. And I understand, I think there's actually a lot of utility in the new force design, but what we didn't do was take a knee and address the operational and strategic failures that happened in our last two decades. And I feel like the narrative is going to be told again that the general. generals had to fix the service because this current GWAT generation isn't capable of fighting on the tactical level. So I'm struggling with these two problems. Like senior leadership isn't addressing the failures, and I have a couple examples of that.

And then, yes, that takes us to August 26th. I'm sitting in my office as a battalion commander, and I'm literally, I have people texting me pictures of the Marines that had gotten killed. So like I'm finding out, like, within minutes. That's the gossip on the inside. The company commander for all the Marines that got killed was one of my SPCs at TBS, meaning he was one of the platoon commanders. Not an SBC. He was a teacher at TBS.

I knew Jeff Ball real well, and I knew some of the Marines. And I have this long history with 1-8. So there was no one where it was more personal to than I felt like myself in that moment. And so I sat there in my chair and thought, I don't think senior. leaders get it. I don't think they understand the failures. All these conversations about how well it's going, I can't think in military history, at least over the last 30 or 40 years where there has been such a monumental failure. And not one person has acknowledged it. And I just knew with certainty that following this event, no one was going to be held accountable. Like I had enough experience

and education to be able to foresee they're going to wash right past this. And you can't make up for the lives that were lost, but we can absolutely get ahead and prevent the next stupid decision by starting to hold people accountable. And I felt the way to do that was through what I wanted to be just the one video. Like I did not plan it to be anything other than that. I thought, I'll make one video. I'll explain some of the things that I think they should have done. And I'm going to demand accountability because that's what I think we deserve because we're missing it. And so that was what led to that first video. And even after I made it, like I are, articulate in that first video that I knew I was potentially going to lose my job, my retirement,

my family stability. Like obviously I had thought through that. I articulated it in the video. And even after I made the video, I didn't post it right away. I went back to my house and was like pacing, deciding whether or not to hit post because I knew as soon as I hit the button, it was going to change the trajectory of my life. But again, I had spent my whole adult life experiencing, studying, thinking, living this. and I just got to a place where I didn't think anyone else was going to say it.

I felt the need to say it. Videos about, I think it's about four and a half minutes long. That's right. Something like that. You're in your camees, so that's something. So you're definitely not shying away from who you are. You, you know, you stay, but you say in the video you've been in the Marine Corps for 17 years. And one thing that I reflected when I saw the video for the first time is,

I thought to myself, oh, you know, your entire career, we'd been at war. You know, I spent more than half my career we weren't at war. You know, we were in the 90s, the dry years. But I'm thinking, man, this guy's been in the Marine Corps for 17 years, the Marine Corps, and America's been at war for that entire time. You, as you mentioned, you said, you know, you got a lot to lose. You know what could happen. You knew you were risking your battalion command, you know, family stability, the whole nine yards.

You bring up that letter from the commandant that he wrote. And you mentioned, did anyone throw their rank on the table and say, we shouldn't give up Bogram? Which, again, going back to the silent five, which is what McMaster called the Joint Chiefs of Staff that worked for LBJ. And you can even hear, you know, that I read in the beginning of guys that reflected back and said, I should have said something. and I should have stood up. You talk about the fact that the people that died, dying in vain, if we don't, you said, if we don't own up and say,

we did not do this well in the end. And, you know, I always look at that when someone gets wounded or killed in combat, at a bare minimum, at a bare minimum, at least we go, okay, we can learn from what happens, in the situation we can pass it on we can make sure it doesn't happen again and That's what you're talking about Um

And you kind of close it out by saying I've been fighting for 17 years. I'm willing to throw it all away to say back to say my two to my senior leaders I demand accountability And that's it Um pretty simple straightforward message you hit post I hit post you hit post you hit post you hit post you hit post you hit post you hit post How long did it take before, you know, you started getting texts from your friends and your senior leadership? Good question. No one's asked me this question yet. So I walked in the house, didn't say anything. Got upstairs and I was sitting in my bedroom on the bed. My wife was getting ready for bed.

She got a text. She said, did you post a video? I was like, yep, I sure did. She's like, you know, I won't say, girl's name she's like so-and-so my friend is texting me saying you're going viral right now I was like oh really viral right now I was like you should probably watch the video told my wife so she watched it and she's like you need to take this down we're this is we're gonna get in trouble take it down and I was like babe it's already up

like you can't you can't put the lid back on the bottle and even if I could I don't know if I'd want to and so this is me saying this in this moment I was like I really believe in what I said in that video Like I feel very strongly about it. And so my wife then started feeling the gravity of what I had just done, started stressing out. And so then I went downstairs and was sitting on the couch and was just kind of thinking. And then all my friends started texting me.

One of my friends from Marsok actually texted me and said, Stu, everything you said in that video is correct. But it's going to come at way too high of a personal cost and you're not going to change anything. He's like, take it down. And I told him, I was like, no, this is the hill I'm willing to die on. I'm not taking it down. And then I had one of my instructors from AITV who texted me as a gunny as a section leader. Awesome dude.

He's like, hey, sir, I watched your video. And I agree with everything in your video. But our adversaries could take this video and use it against us. And I think you need to think about that. And I think you should take it down. And to him, I said, you know, there's probably even some truth to that. But if we can't fix internally what we're doing right now with this conversation, that I'm trying to start, then it's all for nothing.

And so I guess those are all three true stories where it was like, you know, from my loved ones, from my friends, from people that worked for me were, I mean, and there's like 10 other examples, right? So my phone blew up that night. No one, none of one in my chain of command contacted me that night. So just people that knew me. And, you know, I've never, like, my wife and I never, like, slept in separate rooms, even when we were angry, like early in my marriage.

I was like, I'm never, you're never making me sleep on the couch, right? Like, this is our house. We sleep together. We're going to deal with stuff. But, like, that night I slept on the couch. And I bring that up just to illustrate, like, that's how stressful it was. It was just like. Was she mad just basically because you were, you were torpedoing your own career?

Yeah, like I said, I mean, we had stability, like, in those three years, probably for the first time in our life. And she thought she was going to be there. I had just taken a battalion commander's seat. So she knew I was going to be there for at least another two years. And I only had a year after that to retirement. So she knew she had another three. years in North Carolina she had just started a new job as a teacher the kids were all in the same school for the first time she finally had all this stability that she wanted and then

this took her by complete surprise and she knew that I probably wouldn't even have this job much longer so every all the stability she thought she had you know I took from her some people asked me about this when it was happening and I was like on social media or something like that and I got asked about actually no I think I was getting interviewed on a news channel but you know my response was, I guess I drew subconsciously from what Hackworth says when they say, oh, do you think you become emotional? And he's like, yes, I have become emotional because I've watched so many good men die. And I am emotional.

And that's sort of what I said. I said, listen, here's a guy that's been at war for 17 years who, I guarantee he's lost, Marines and he's sitting here looking at this situation saying this is I'm not like I'm not taking this anymore when did you hear from your chain of command the next day so as a battalion commander I was always the first one in the office and it just so happened that that day my wife had a medical appointment and I had agreed to drop the kids off at like at school at like let's call it eight o'clock. And so it was like an abnormal occurrence. So that's like the one day I didn't show up early. And so I take the kids and so now I don't get into work until like 8.15. And as a

battalion commander, you don't tell people when you're coming in and just show up at a normal time. But I had texted my op-son excellent and like, hey, I'm running late. And so I tell you that just to say my CEO had stopped by my office and called like three times. And, and, and, and, you know, and, And my opso called me and was like, hey, sir, C.O. was really looking for you. You should probably call him. And so when I drove in, I got in, I think at like 8.30 that morning, Ciel was actually walking, because his buildings, let's say a two-minute walk from my building. He was actually walking between the buildings and I saw him. And so I stuck my head out the window. I was like, do you want to, you want me to come back to your place? He's like, no, just meet me in your office. So by the time I went and parked my truck and went in my office, like he was already sitting in my office waiting for me. And what do you say? The first conversation between Colonel Emel and I, he came off as actually very caring. Keep in mind, this is a career colonel command selected that doesn't know me very well. I've never met him before my battalion command, so he's had about six weeks of meetings,

maybe like seven meetings with me. So just imagine, I mean, he's another professional, I'm a professional, he doesn't know me. It's not like a guy I've been working for for a couple years. or even a guy that knows a guy that I know real well. Like, I don't know anyone that really knows any. They're like, we just don't know each other. We didn't develop much of a relationship. So he's like, so he posted a video, yes, sir.

And he didn't really, there wasn't much small talk. He's like, I wish you would have talked to me first. If you would have talked to me first, we could have worked through some of this. And that's, and he's right. And that's the appropriate way. And I said, yes, sir, I understand. And he's like, I think that this video might be used to run messages that may not have your intent. I wish you would have thought of that. And again, he was right. And then he just

stated, look, there's going to be an investigation that's going to take place. And then based on the investigation, we're going to determine what to do. I'd like you to go home, take the rest of the day, and I will text you on Monday with where we stand. And like, all of that was very reasonable, right? Very reasonable stuff. Was this already like on Fox News and hitting the news outlets and all that at this point? No. So this was still sort of, you know, your Facebook friends, you know, and then like, or was it, how big was it right? I mean, I think it probably had received like 10,000 shares. So, I mean, by the end of the night, it was picked up by all the major news stations.

So in the morning, like, the commonouts office knew about it. I mean, everyone knew about it, but, you know, it hadn't been picked up by mainstream media yet. But it does by the end of the day. But, like, it wasn't, like, everybody knew. Hey, when your friend, your gunny, and your wife were all like, hey, dude, take it down. Yeah, what was the question? I mean, they, everyone knew. Yeah.

And so my CEO left. My ex-o came in and I turned over the battalion to him. And then I went home. And then? And then when I got home, my CEO called me an hour later and said, hey, I need you to come back in. I'm sorry to jerk you around. Oh, that was weird. I was like, all right.

Meet me at my office. He's like, no, meet me in my office. Okay. So I meet him in his office and he just looks at me and says, and hands me a piece of paper and says, you've been relieved for cause based on a lack of trust and confidence. Do you have any questions? Yes. What do I do now?

He's like, I need you to come in tomorrow. He's like, what will probably happen is there will be an investigation and I don't think they're going to keep you here. He's like, they'll probably move you up to Quantico. And General Alford asked to maintain the investigation so that he can take care of you. That's what he said. I was like, okay. I'm like trying to like reconcile that in my mind. And but at the end of the day, like I kind of knew I'd be relieved over it. And I just said, okay, sir. And so I signed the piece of paper that said I had been relieved. I walked out and I actually made a post like immediately after it's still up on my page is my my Facebook and

LinkedIn and just and I was very appreciative I said I think effective of 1400 today I've been relieved and then my command is doing exactly what I would have done I'd like to thank them for the opportunity of getting to service the AITB battalion commander and I look forward to the next chapter right so it's very appreciative of post obviously something changed for your regimental commander somebody talked to him and said all right this is what we're doing yeah and but just so everyone just so civilians know what you're You're talking about. Relieved O command means you just got fired. Yeah.

So you got fired. And battalion command is a huge stepping stone and it's a huge responsibility. So the ramifications were I would never get promoted again. And, you know, as you worked through it in your mind, I had been relieved, so I'd been fired. So I knew I would never be promoted again. But I knew that there was still a potential for legal action, right? So, like, best case, I am just like a disgraced lieutenant colonel on a cubicle somewhere, I'm limping towards retirement.

But, you know, worst case was I could be separated out via legal action. And so I didn't know. It was just unknown at that time. How many days was it until you posted your next video? So that occurred on a Friday. And then I went into, I haven't gotten in all this in the story. So this is new stuff. I went home and, you know, my wife,

now had kind of wrapped her head around, life was changing, and she was still down for the cause at that point. So she was thinking, like, maybe we go down to Florida, my parents have vacation rentals, and, like, manage the vacation rentals. And I had had, I tried to do, like, a father-son days with my kids, and I already had a pre-planned one with my oldest kid down on the outer banks. She was like, do you want to cancel the thing with Paul, my oldest son?

And I was like, no, I think I could probably use, like, a day away with just one of my kids. She's like, we need to talk to the boys. And I was like, all right. I was like, I don't know if I can do it tonight. I've just been fired. Why don't we, you know, give me the night. And so went to bed. I was the last night I actually slept with my wife that night.

Slept in the same bed with my wife. Got up the next morning, got the three boys on the couch. And I told them, hey, guys, your dad was fired. But I was fired for doing something that I thought was right. I wasn't fired for doing something, you know, bad or nefarious. I want you guys to hear it from me because your friends at school are probably going to tell you and nothing is going to change for you. You're going to get to keep living here and I may have to go to Quantico to work for the next three years, but you'll get to remain in school.

That's what I believed at the time. So I told him that. Then I took my oldest son and while we were out spending the day on the boat, all I was thinking about was what do I do? And I kind of skipped over this to go back when I made that post that just thanked my command, when I was on my social media, I read a public comment from one of my previous bosses. So when I was at SOI as a captain, the lieutenant colonel that was my battalion commander, that he did a lot for me. He retired as at 06. He had gotten on my social media and said, if Stewart Shutter was honorable, he would resign.

And he didn't state that he was my previous boss or that he was like a mentor to me. and email me, didn't text me, and I felt like, I mean, that really was like a stab in the back to me. Because a lot of general officers that are on LinkedIn, they prefer LinkedIn, not Facebook, so that's why I had a lot of LinkedIn, too. A lot of the senior officers knew who he was, and so for him to call me out like that. And so I'm struggling with, when I'm with my kid on the boat, I'm struggling with, they relieved me without even an investigation. Like, I knew my job was at risk when I posted that video. But like I feel like a tolerant organization would have been like, hey, we're going to let an investigation play out. We're going to let you sit and calm down. Obviously,

this was personal, but you've broken some rules and let's let the investigation play out and we'll see where the chips fall. Like that's the reasonable. But they obviously fired me within like 12 hours. Were you surprised when you got relieved? I was surprised they didn't let an investigation take place. I really was. I didn't expect that. Like when I was calculating what would happen, I thought I might be benched while an investigation took place, but I didn't think I'd be relieved immediately. But even that probably wasn't enough to push me. It was that next comment from my old boss,

where then while I was sitting there with my son, it planted the seeds of, I don't know if this organization cares about me as much as I care about it. And so I just was struggling with this. And so then it came back to like, what do I want to do? Like if none of them care about me, do I want to limp towards retirement for the,

the next three years because that's best case. And I just came to the decision like, no, I can't live my life like that. Like this was never supposed to be a career. This was always supposed to be something that was fulfilling. I don't care about the money as much as other people might. Like, I really don't. Like, I'll be fine. And I thought, I need to get ahead of this. And I'm not going to let them just dictate the terms. I'm going to resign and I'm going to tell them that because I still believe in what I said. And they haven't addressed any of that. And so after I spent the whole day with my kid on Saturday. I kind of came to that conclusion Saturday night.

And so then we slept out there on the beach. We had a hotel. And then on Sunday morning, I took him back to the house. And I dropped him off with my wife. And I was, you know, I had been fired on Friday. So I said, hey, can I go out to the farm? I went out there every once in a while, just kind of like me time. And she was like, yeah, absolutely.

I get it. And I went out there. So on my 50 acres, I've got two abandoned school buses that I put out there is kind of like trailers and we actually I at least it to a nonprofit called a hero and we do suicide prevention for like outdoor treatment for veterans and so that's why I have it I've had it I've had retreats out there for the veterans but when I went out there that Sunday I essentially on one of the school buses set up a video and the message of the second video was you fired me I don't think you care about me I'm resigning effective immediately I don't want any money I don't want any benefits

And then I posted it, and that's where, you know, it really quickly became an escalating series of events between the Marine Corps and myself. Yeah, and, you know, all this, even your original message, you were talking about what you wanted was accountability. I mean, obviously, I wrote a book called Extreme Ownership, and this is the very, that's what it is, right?

And that's what you're saying. Even after this video comes out, there's still no one responding to anything. in the video. And they also did some things where they're like they put they put some, they made some PR maneuvers on you on you saying, hey, we're going to make sure that he gets the help that he needs something along those lines. Yeah. So after the second video came out, so again, this was Sunday. I was fired on Friday. So I haven't been in the work yet. So it's Sunday night. Well, after I make a second video, I mean, it's a 45-minute drive. I post it from

my farm. It's a 45-minute drive back to my house. By the time I got back, my wife had already seen it and was very upset. And you hadn't pre-briefed your wife on any of this? No. That's why she was justifiably very angry. And I won't go in all the details of that, but that's where the that's where the path started to diverge between my wife and I. And so I ended up going and staying in a motel. So I was in a day's end for the rest of the week. And my, yes, the question you asked was they started making statements. The Marine Corps PAO office, public affairs office, released a statement that was all over the media.

Because now these videos were getting picked up. That second video that I did was the banner of Fox News. So like if you went to Fox News.com that day, like that was the first. thing was my face on a school bus, right? And so the Marine Corps was trying to get out in front of it, and they released a statement that said, we are trying to locate Lieutenant Colonel Scheller to protect himself, to protect him against himself and his family. And I was like, what? And I had my phone on me the entire time. And I had even talked to my battalion XO for like 20 minutes. Like, I was texting my friends. And I was like, if the Marine Corps was really trying to find me, like they didn't

think to text me. They didn't think to call me. And so like potentially, potentially the public affairs office arm just wasn't talking to like whoever should have been calling me and just got out ahead of it first. But like the other part of it is maybe like they really just didn't care about me at all and they just put that out. But like again, I'm having all these indicators. It's like this escalating thing of like me feeling like what I said is right. All right, you should show some sympathy. And they're like, no, I'm going to poke you in the chest because what you did was broke the rules. And then I'm like, well, no, come back and listen to what I'm saying.

Like, no, you're still breaking the rules. I'm going to make it worse for you. And so, like, each one of these is just an example of, I'm like, if they cared about me, they would have called. One thing that I noticed, and I heard you talking about it, you know, at the end of that second video, you're getting emotional and you're like asking for accountability and then kind of ranting against everything a little bit. And you say, you know, follow me and we'll bring the whole fucking system down.

So you're, you know, going hard. And I heard you later say like, yeah, I didn't choose the best words. Yeah, and I appreciate asking that. So people have asked me a lot, do you regret it? Because my life has dramatically changed, lost a lot, gained a lot. The one, the thing I've come through this with the understanding is I wouldn't change. my original position or the events at all. Like, I don't apologize, but there are certain ways that I delivered the message that I

would absolutely go back and tweak. And the one shining example is the, we're going to bring the whole fucking system down in that second video. And even in the third video, I say a couple of things that, like, could it, or were stripped out of context. And so, yeah, you got to understand. I mean, in that second video, like, that emotion wasn't fake. Like, I knew I was giving up everything.

Like I was terrified and I was emotional and I didn't take multiple takes. I was like one take, Jay-Z, get on the mic, drop it, post it, right? Like there was no editing of that video. And so I wish I could go back because it allowed the media to just paint me as this violent extremist. And I don't think I ever came anywhere close to that. Like obviously, in my, I can't say obviously, in my head, I was trying to communicate that the system has centralized power. was corrupt and it needs to be fundamentally changed. But in the emotional outpouring of the moment,

I said I want to bring the whole fucking system down, you know? Like, I was just mad. And I went back and clarified. Like, three days later in a post, I put in a constitutional manner with one loud voice. But, like, no one reads the follow-up. You know what I mean? No.

You get that one shot. That's right. Especially when it comes to, like, viral-type videos that are going to get out there. No one's following up with that. You get home from that video and your wife is like, you didn't pre-brief your wife. Now your wife is just like, no, this isn't going to happen. That's right. Yeah, I mean, so, I'm probably not going to develop much more of the story with my wife and I.

But I will say, you know, I still, like this past Christmas, after all this was done, you know, I got out on Christmas Eve, we spent as a family all of Christmas together. We went to a water park together. Like, I still very much love her. we are still going through a divorce. This situation was very challenging, and there's things that we both would have done differently. And there's reasons. The reasons I didn't say anything is because I knew what she would say, and again, this was very important to me.

But I think more than anything, the reason we're going through a divorce and we didn't decide to reconcile is because what this situation did was illustrate the trajectory of my life and how I'm always going to be on the move. and I think in one comment she summarized it with I just in retirement want to learn how to play golf and you want to fundamentally change the government right those are two very different things and the story that I just painted you for the last 17 years I mean this woman has stuck by me and suffered through a lot and like she deserves a little bit of stability

she hasn't had it her whole adult life and she justifiably deserves that and you know she's still the mother of my children so I'll never have anything bad to say about her There's talking about the verbiage that I would have changed, there's absolutely things I would have changed with how I handled my situation with her. You know, there's, you know, things that I still look back on it, and it makes me sad. But at the end of the day, you can't look back.

You just got to look forward. I've tried to do the right thing. I obviously hit some minds while moving forward, but I kept moving forward. And, you know, she's still a big part of my life, and so that is what it is. You know, I was a rebellious kid. and I was a rebellious kid. I listened to hardcore music. I didn't listen to my parents.

I didn't like school. I didn't do good in school. I was like a rebellious kid. You can just trace that streak all the way back to my birth. So when I look at your, you're from you, what we talked about today from your birth on up, it's like I don't see that streak.

And then all of a sudden it just kind of manifests itself. I get, look, you're talking about when you're in You're giving away money to these locals and you're thinking this doesn't seem like to be it I'm thinking that too doing the same thing I'm in remoddy in 2006 we're formed relationships with people I'm thinking okay well I guess this will move us in one direction but I'm not sitting there as a Obedient you know slave as to what I'm being told this is what you're being told to do do it I always pushed back on my leadership Throughout my career always had that rebellious streak and this just kind of like do you do you when you look back at your life do you notice things along the way that are indicators

that you had sort of a limit to what you would take? I mean, what's movie reference? What's the movie reference where the guy is like an accountant or something and then he just kind of loses it? Falling down. Yeah. Am I right? Because I never even saw that movie,

but I remember it. Yeah, Michael Doug. That's what happens, right? He's a normal guy. Something happens. He's not going to take it anymore. Yeah, nothing really happened. He just reached his point in general at the beginning.

Like there wasn't like any indicators That was the beginning of the movie No not really Yeah everything life Like traffic So what do you think Stu Are you do you see indicators in the past Where you're thinking like man

I always had this in me No Michael Douglas Basically going on a suicidal rampage I don't think that the comparison is fair Again I think it's kind of a tough question I think Yes to your point I didn't always push back.

I mean, I started to give some examples there with my regimental commander to kind of paint a picture at a certain point. I started to just solidify who I was, what my values were. And it's funny, a lot of people have asked me this,

which I'm surprised by the question. I've actually been surprised about a lot of the questions people give me, but one of the questions was, why now? You've been in, you were in Ramadi in 2007, you did all this, your whole life, why now?

And they were asking that question, almost implying as if there's a Democrat and that's a president and like I use my platform to exploit now to become popular. The truth is, I think people grow, develop an appreciation, right? As a young first lieutenant, I wanted to go serve my country. You know, when I look back on George Bush's philosophy to export democracy, that was obviously stupid. But if you ask 23-year-old Stuart Scheller or, you know, I'm watching the Marines in

Fallujah, all I could see were the Marines run through Fallujah. I used to love the movie Black Hawk Down. When you watch that movie, it's like it glorifies it. If you look at the operational failures in Somalia that led to that event, but like I didn't have a deeper appreciation for that. So I mean, the question you're asking me is like, why did I get to that moment? I had just at that point had enough education and experiences and I was in enough of a position of authority that there just wasn't many other people like me at that moment in time willing to say what needed to be said.

So as time goes on after this, when do they actually like arrest you? Do you get arrested, right? I do. Yeah, so I posted that second video like a week goes by now. You did a September 11th video too, right? Yep. I did a third video. And you're still not arrested yet?

Nope. And I even did a fourth video in my Charlie's where I basically, after my, my second and third video was like just kind of an outpouring of emotion where my second video was very angry or resigned. And my third video, I was really just talking about violence, and I was trying to, like, take the sharp edge off the second video, but I still don't really go back to accountability. But after my third video, now all my friends are texting me and being like, dude, you're looking a little crazy. You're looking a little erratic, right? And so, and keep in mind, like, after my second video, even though the PAO office put that message out that they were trying to find me, then when I went into work, they command directed a mental health evaluation.

So my mental health was being attacked from all these different angles. and it's so hard to defend mental health because if you really are crazy, anything you say is marginalized because you're crazy, right? So it's like, you're crazy and I'm like, no and not. Well, that's what a crazy person would say, you know? That's catch 22, right?

That's the both catch 22. If you're crazy, you don't think you're crazy. That's right. So how do you defend it? So did you start wondering? You know what? You're laughing, but like when everyone tells you it, you do start to question, like, you know,

if everyone in this room is crazy, like, what does that make me? Either I'm the only sane one, or maybe I am the crazy one. So after the third video, they actually offered me a deal, a legal deal. I could have just taken it and that would have been that. But I was like, man, there's a lot of talk of me being crazy. And I didn't help myself with these two videos.

I was like, I need to end and bring the message back. And so that's when I made that fourth video in my Charlie's like, General McKenzie is like, I can't think in military history where someone is so obviously culpable. Like, it's just clear. like the emperor has no clothes you have to see it and I could go through all the details as to why I think that but that was the fourth video I was trying to bring the message back to accountability and so after the fourth video is when they gave me a gag order and just said I mean the gag order was crazy I don't think I've actually released the verbiage of it but it was like if you talk to him and he talks to him and they say that you said that you're going to jail like anything like online chat rooms like any email if you communicate and this is what you're going to jail like anything like online chat rooms like any email if you communicate and this because they offered you a deal, but then you made another video. That's right. That's right. And so now they didn't know what to do. Now I'm, now I'm moving

faster than their legal deals. I'm moving faster than the investigation. And they haven't actually charged me with anything. So they're, they're starting to get scared. I don't know if scared's right word, but they don't know how to handle it. They don't know how to address it. There's a guy that's not taking the deals and he's still making statements and they, and everything they've done up to this point hasn't been effective in stopping it. So they hit you with the, is this when they arrest you? No. This is it. After the fourth video is when they gave me a gag order.

So I'm still not in jail. So now you're not allowed to talk to anybody. That's right. You're not allowed to post on social media? That's right. I'm not to communicate in any form. You're just on lockdown. I'm on lockdown.

Yeah, a couple points. Number one, I constantly say to clients and people and friends, we don't make good decisions when we're emotional. Like, don't try. This started as a joke when I'm, I was a young enlisted guy, like we would go out drinking and make decisions, you know? And the joke was, hey, don't make decisions. Don't make life-changing decisions.

I would volunteer for platoons and do stuff like that. So this is a good example, right? You take a step back and say, okay, where am I going to be strategically? And this is another thing I talk about all the time is taking a step back and saying, okay, how does this play out strategic, from a strategic perspective, where am I going to end up? Just things to think about, which you're clearly like, hey, here's some wording I could have changed. Here's a thing that would have helped out my relationship. So there's always things that if you can try and take a step back, they're going to be beneficial to you.

Almost guaranteed. The risk to that is time. The risk to that is time. Also, the risk to that is you can rationalize to not do anything. Yeah, that's right. You can rationalize to get to a point where you say, you know what, it's not worth it. Yep. And again, is it smart to do that calculus?

It probably is because my feeling, I don't know you, but my feeling is if you were to run the calculus, you would have still came to the same conclusion. You might have executed your plan a little bit differently. But it's important to, if you can, take a step back, run the calculus. So that way, the course that you plot will be the most effective course in what you're trying to do. And this is just general. You know, I've got some friends.

they know who they are who call me from time to time super emotional and I got to talk them through like what the strategic perspective is what it looks like over the long term and and how to make the next step forward so good good lesson learned and again from my from just talking to you today I think you still would have made the same you would come to the same conclusion that this is something that I don't want to use the word passionate not that just just that you were passionate about it, but you were convicted. You had conviction about what you were saying.

And, you know, something else from my perspective in an ownership and an accountability perspective that I think people don't understand as leaders is if you make a mistake and you take ownership of the mistake that you've made, then what you can do is you can fix the mistake. And you can actually change things. And just because you say, hey, this was my fault doesn't mean you necessarily get fired or have to resign.

You know, any of these senior leaders could say, hey, this is what we thought. We're not perfect. I'm not perfect. I made a mistake. I, you know, I did that. I did that with, I made a speech coming from President Biden. If I was in President Biden's shoes, what I would have said. And it was like, hey, I made this mistake.

We underestimated. That means I underestimated. That means I thought that the Afghan forces were stronger. That means I thought that the Taliban was weaker. I misassessed and miscalculated how this unfolded. Here's what we're doing to fix it. And this is the thing that I think a lot of leaders don't understand. When a person does that, when a leader does that, the team doesn't think, oh, you see, that's

right, you were messed up. No, they think, oh, okay, yep, he messed up, but he's humble enough to take ownership and we're going to get it ficked and we'll support him now. My whole freaking career was taking ownership when things weren't wrong. And so I think just again, to some of these senior leaders, when you take ownership of something, it's not, it's a step forward. It's not a step backward. It is a true step forward. And by the way, when you blame other people or you deny or you act like it didn't happen that is a step backward that's what people don't understand that's what leaders don't understand they understand that saying well it was the Afghan people's fault it was the Afghan military's fault that's not a step

forward it feels like one but it's not it's a step backward because every single other person knows people know the truth about what's going on they can sense it and I think that's one of the reasons why your videos were widely shared because people thought this guy he knows what he believes what he's saying and he he's speaking from a perspective of truth like people people saw that yeah people weren't like oh he's trying to blame the leadership what's wrong with that guy no people like yeah he's trying to blame the leadership because the leadership is wrong and they should admit that and they should take ownership of it so you get gagged gag order comes then what do you at what point do you get arrested right so I got gagged on let's call

a Friday I went through a Saturday Sunday Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday, Friday. So now it's going into the next weekend. And that following week on the Tuesday, Wednesday, I knew that the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and General McKenzie were going to be testifying to the House and the Senate.

And so I calculated if I violated the gag order, they might have a disproportional response and that that would bring attention to the whole message that I was trying to illustrate. So I made another post that was, this one was probably my most insightful. You know, it had some like insightful language in terms of not like revolutionary insightful,

but I mean, like personal attacks on people. Like I attacked all the, like the last four presidents, you know, I attacked general officers. And I didn't say anything that was untrue, but like I said some like hard stuff to hear. It wasn't very, it wasn't like a uniting message. It was just like a fuck you to everyone. And again, I even put in the post, I'm ready to go to jail.

But before I made the post, I read the entire UCMJ manual for courts martial. And so I knew what the requirements were to send me to jail. And quite honestly, I didn't think that they had the criteria to send me to jail. I was kind of prepared to go to jail, but I didn't think that they had the illegal ability to do so for violating a gag order that I thought was illegal. And so that was the only time I violated the gag order, was that one time. And then I showed up at 08 on Monday, and they had PMO waiting for me, and they sent me to jail. And the way they did it was they wrote on the document that I was a flight risk, which was like just an outward lie. I showed up at 08 on Monday, right?

I had been to work every day on time, the full time, answering every phone call. So, like, it's just a lie. And no one will be held accountable for that, but that was what it was, and got to jail that Monday morning. But my calculation was correct. all the generals had to answer questions to include the Secretary of Defense about why I was in jail because I went to jail on that Monday and they started their testimony on Tuesday and Wednesday

and then I was out, you know, six days out. I was in total of nine days. So you end up getting charged with Article 88 contempt toward officials. Article 89, disrespect towards superior commissioned officers. Article 90, willfully disobeying Superior commissioned officers.

Article 92. dereliction in the performance of duties. Article 92, failure to obey order or regulation, Article 133, conduct on becoming an officer and a gentleman. How long did it take for that trial process to come about? Usually it takes months. They did mine five days after I got out of jail. So you spent six days, nine days in jail? Nine days in jail? And what were you doing in jail? Just sitting there? Yeah. I was in a solitary cell. Yeah. I honestly, all I did was write. So the first two days, I didn't have any writing gear books.

And then by like day three, my lawyer was able to drop off like all these legal pads, pens, books. And he gave me my command investigation that just had, I mean, we can get into that if we want. But I mean, all these statements from these other officers that just like were just lies, straight up personal attacks. And so I was like writing on the legal. Just example of like, oh, he showed a plate to work. that kind of thing? Oh, yeah. So he was smiling in his command photo.

We don't smile in command photos. I knew I didn't like him when I saw that photo. Another one, another one. This one guy. They use that in a court of law against you? These aren't like just. I don't like people that smile either. I agree with that guy.

These aren't just like, you know, side of the mouth comments. These are on statements that they sign, right? I mean, these are formal statements. Check. This one guy. I was at the beach with his family a week previous, and I went to his house for dinner two weeks previous with our families to hang out.

And when I was in that motel, where I had Miller Light cans scattered, my life's falling apart. Like, I probably really could have used a friend. And he was texting me. He was like, hey, Stu, how you doing, man? Just want to make sure you're all right. Is there anything we can talk about?

Like, why are you doing this? He then screenshot at those and brought them to the investigating officer unsolicited to say, look, I was trying to figure out what his motives are. Like, this Stu Scheller is just a fucking nefarious character. He should have never been a battalion commander. And I'm like, who does that?

Like, what man does that? Blood in the water. There's blood in the water, man. Sharks are going to pounce. Yeah, but they didn't realize that I wasn't, you know. Yeah. So you end up going to trial in this trial, the judge you said, looked at your record and was like, hey, where'd this come from?

The judge, I don't think, wanted me to plead guilty. So it wasn't, you know, all those charges you read off. And there was like all these findings of facts. The only choice, there was only one choice, except guilty for all of them at special court martial or plead not guilty to all of them in general. So to get in the weeds about what any of them said, it was almost irrelevant.

And so... So if you did not guilty, what would have happened? I would have gone to general court martial. And I had remained in jail for another four or five months on pre-trial while they prepared the general court-martial procedure, and then I would have gone and tried to plead not guilty to all of them at general. Check. And you pled guilty to all of them.

Again, there's no, like, I want to plead guilty to these two and not these three. There's no point even looking at the details of them. It was, do you plead guilty to all of this? You need to read it, Stu. Do you plead guilty to all of this at special misdemeanor? You get the lowest characterization of discharge is General Under Honorable, which they'll determine later. Or you go to general plead not guilty.

and if you get found guilty of one of any of these, it's a felony, and you'll get a dishonorable, and you'll sit in here for another four months. And I'll tell you what, even with that choice, I thought very strongly about doing the general. I was going to say, bro, you're at this point. I know. God, I know.

I'm kind of surprised you just did that. And I think, and to the judge's sentiment, I really think I could have won. But what I asked myself was, what's the most important thing? The most important thing, the reason I gave all of this up was not to beat them. It was to preserve the message of accountability.

And if I felt deep inside that I had broken some of the rules, for me to beat them based on undue command influence and legal loophole, I felt like would have marginalized my message of accountability. And for me to plead guilty for breaking the rules and then look at them and say, look, I'm not apologizing, but I'm accepting accountability. I felt it strengthened my message. And it also expedited my exit so that I could come on, you know, Jocko's podcast and talk about how General McKinsey needs to be fired, right? So for all those reasons,

again, it made more sense to plead guilty. So that was kind of almost anticlimactic. A little bit. I'll tell you, though, there was some drama. So like I said, the fastest court marshal from exit of jail and agreement in the history of the Marine Corps. Also, one of those charges like 88, I think I was the first officer charge since Vietnam. They were just like throwing stuff on the wall, right? But they released the command investigation with all those, like, it's just crazy things that those officers said to the media with my medical investigation so that selective articles could be written about, like, how I was a violent extremist. I mean, it was just blatantly false stuff. Like, I'm still on the fence of whether I should sue for libel or just, like,

move forward. But so once they leaked to that investigation, to your point, the judge, the judge was like, if that's true, like, this is criminal. Like, those people should be brought to the court, not Lieutenant Colonel Scheller. And so the Marine Corps was, like, forced to do another command investigation on the elite command investigation. So they did another command investigation. And so then I asked for that other command investigation because it had to do with me. And they're like, no, you've got to go through Freedom of Information Act.

I was like, let me get this straight. So you had an investigation that was about me that you leaked through the improper channels. You were scolded by the judge. You created a new investigation still about me about your improper handling. And the only way for me to get that is to go through the problem, the problem, the, proper Freedom of Information Act. Like, that's correct. And I was like,

ah, you know, is like. Have you done that? No, I haven't requested it? I haven't requested it. Come on, man. You got to request it. I know.

It's probably already burned to the ground, and be honest with me. But I probably will. So going back, I probably will sue for libel this one publication. And I'll probably freedom of information act to add to that libel suit. But like right now,

the most important thing, again, is the message in making sure that people understand. I mean, there was fundamental breakdowns that are not being addressed apolitically. That's what I want to change. So like do I have grievances that I can legally pursue sure but that's like I said earlier like Money is really not that important to me so we'll figure it out and so you Part of your rent part of the deal was you you resigned and you were done you're done in the Marine Corps

That's right at 17 years maybe 18 years now 17 17 years yeah and then You got out what just before Christmas? Christmas Eve Christmas Eve that's right that was it that was it where were you when you were out what was that night like my family came down actually yeah so hung out with my family just acted like it wasn't happening honestly i don't even think it's hit me because right now you know someone that's listening to the show we're taping this in early january but after christmas with my family then i've started doing all these media shows because i've been on a gag order for the last four months so i don't think the reality of it has actually hit me yet it's going to come when I'm done doing all this media

and I'm sitting in my place by myself with nothing to do that's probably when it's going to be like, oh, shit. But I've stayed too busy for it to be real yet. So what's, so here you are. Here I am. I mean, this is only freaking three weeks ago. That's right. That's right. What's next?

What are you doing? So I just want to... What's the new mission? So I want to illustrate like why I'm so upset with General McKenzie. And so I'm going to just, take a second talk about that and then I'll answer your question through that. So the reason I in that fourth video tried to prefer charges against General McKenzie, which is my legal right to do. Explain, I didn't touch on that. Explain what you did. You explain what you did there.

In the manual for court marshals, rule 137 clearly states that any member of the UCMJ can prefer charges against another member in the UCMJ. Now, that when you prefer, that means that charge sheet has to be routed up to the first general officer with general court martial authority. Sometimes it's at the kernel level. And so the strategy there was I knew General Alford was trying to hold me accountable. I knew he would never have the courage to refer charges from my preferal, but then he would have to publicly declare that he wasn't going to seek accountability against the general and he was seeking accountability against me.

So I was using that tactic to illustrate the hypocrisy of the system. But they denied me the ability to even route. out which is my legal right to do. I mean, it was just, I mean, illegal in my opinion, but doesn't matter. So they don't allow me to do that. The reason I was trying to prefer those charges is because General McKinsey is the CENTCOM combatant commander. He works directly for the Secretary of Defense, who works directly for the president. What happened was in, you know, the story you gave in the withdrawal from Afghanistan, General McKinsey, and I know the operational planners that developed the plans for the withdrawal. They submitted the National Security Council four or five plans. Most of them

included keeping Bacquem Air Base. But they needed 2,500 troops. If you go and watch General McKenzie's testimony on the backside, he says, I tried to say that we needed 2,500 troops. Why that's relevant is because they determined that that number was what was capable of maintaining Bagram Air Base. When President Biden and the National Security Council said, no, you've got to go below 2,500, then General McKenzie was at a critical moment, right? So as the senior military advisor, you have a responsibility to convince your boss why you should execute your plan. Now, you can't force your boss to do that, but every staff officer knows how to get, I mean, as an operations officer, there's an art to making sure that my boss does the plan that I think is best, because I know better than he does in a lot of ways.

So it's artful, but he failed to do that. So once he failed to do that, then he looked at the restraints that were imposed upon his plan. If he didn't feel like he could execute the plan effectively without unconstitutional, undue loss of life, he had a moral obligation to resign. He did not do that. Once he didn't resign, at that point, he is accountable. He doesn't get to go back after the fact and say, no, I told the president of National Security Council 2,500 and they didn't listen to me. It doesn't matter. You didn't convince him, and you didn't resign. You're the senior military advisor. So for all those reasons, I think General McKenzie should be held accountable. Right now, just as I've started this media tour,

72 hours ago, the White House released that General McKenzie was being replaced in the spring by a new sent comp combatant commander. And I don't think it's a coincidence to be completely honest with you because I've been hitting the media pretty hard. That guy, he's going to undermine his whole career if he doesn't raise his hand and say he should be accountable before he exits. So that's one thing. I think the operational level of war, which is at the combatant commander level, linked to the political policy strategic level of war, which is the National Security Council executive branch, is where we're failing war. This is where we failed Vietnam.

It's where we fail the GWI generation. And how you do that is you hold leaders accountable at that level. And right now, Congress and the executive branch aren't holding up their end of the bargain. I'll give an example of what I think is wrong with Congress. When I went to, I placed myself in jail in a lot of ways to illustrate something. And I underestimated, I guess I overestimated Congress's ability to do anything. Because bipartisan took turns with their sound bites of anger about the face. Afghanistan withdrawal. And then guess what? Nothing. Congress is given by the founding fathers

leverage over the DOD is the budget. And what was not in the news is six days previous, they unanimously approved a $740 billion 22 fiscal year budget and not one of those vocally outraged congressional representatives said, hey, you're asking for $740 billion? Who's accountable from the Afghanistan withdrawal? Show me metrics of effectiveness for the 21 budget, because to do that would require courage. To do that would get spun as potentially anti-military, and that would go against self-preservation. So what do I want going forward?

I want the operational level of war combatant commanders to start being held accountable in the same manner that they were in World War II. I mean, look at how many generals Lincoln fired before he got to Grant. And Grant wasn't a good tactician, but he had operational foresight. He knew how to stick with it.

The second thing I think is we need leaders, not politicians. So I've got a website, Authenticamericans.com, where you can see some of my political views, but ultimately it's where you can support me. And I've also got a second website, Votes for Vets.org. Because I think we need leaders, not politicians, in the four months that I've been on a gag order, gone out and organized a bunch of people running in the 22 race. So I've got five senators and 20 congressional representatives that all, I think, embody the leadership and courage that we need in politics. And some of them, I think I have a real good shot at winning. Some of them are more of a long shot. But I have the ability right now at the platform I've built to raise money,

bring in media to some of these races, bring in different organizations to support some of these leaders that I think need to be up in D.C. And is that also linked through AuthenticAmericans.com for the people that are running, for the vets that are running? Votes for Vets. Okay. Votes for Vets.org is really where you can see most of those candidates.

My website, Authentic Americans, really, you can donate to the disabled veterans pack through authentic Americans and that money ultimately will go to support the coalition that I've built. But they're separate. Authentic Americans is really my brand and my thinking. And I'm not going to run most likely in the 22 race. I plan to just support these other veterans. I've been through a lot. Like I said, I think I need to stabilize a little bit and reassess the landscape before just

continuing a sprint. But I do think, you know, my whole life has been America. I love America and I love foreign diplomacy. And I think the federal politics game is where you really make those changes. And so I see myself running for something, but it probably won't be until 24-ish. So that's what you're going to do. You're planning to go into politics right now in the future. In the future.

I mean, right now I'm probably going to write a book. I'm probably going to, you know, figure out where my house is going to be at. So, you know, I'm going to spend the next couple of years. getting my foundation stable until I see something that I think makes sense. It's a lot going on, man. There's a lot going on, man. I can't believe you only got out a month ago. That's right.

That's kind of crazy. It seemed like longer time had passed. You're on social media. You're on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter. If you go to my website, all my social media is linked at the bottom. So if you just go to Authenticamericans.com, you can find all my pages. It's all at Stuart Scheller, S-C-H-E-L-L-E-R.

Yeah, it seems like we're at a decent place to close it out. It's been over three hours. Echo Charles. Yes, sir. Any questions? I don't. Actually, I was going to say, do-do, why don't you, like, write a book or something?

I guess you are going to. So there you go. Yeah, I've been writing all these social media posts, and this one guy commented me the other day. He's like, I think he was trying to be. nice. He's like, hey, Stu, have you ever thought about writing a book instead of slowly writing a book over Facebook? Yeah. Facebook seems to be like your primary social media. I mean, Instagram and like TikTok are really the new generation, but Facebook allows long written posts. And so really now that if you look at it,

LinkedIn has has a smaller character limit. And so what I've done now is it's the same post on Facebook and LinkedIn. So really the LinkedIn character limit is like the exact character limit of all my post. because I usually write like two pages and then I try to pair them down for the character limit. But it just goes to, I think, the attention span of our current generation. Like it has to be in digestible chunks. You know, you get one of your books

and it's a lot harder to get them digest. But if you hit them with like five posts separated by three days, you've got, I think, a much higher chance of getting them to digest some of that. What are you hearing from the Marine Corps right now? They've gone calm silent, right? They have a lot of articles have been written on me since I got out and started doing this media,

and the same statement is, we're not going to comment on a civilian that used to serve in the Marine Corps, right? So they've got, like, one comment that's that we're not going to comment about it. And so we'll see, though. I'm hitting them with a lot of media, so that might change. But like you said, it's only been like one week since post-Christmas. They've been back, so who knows?

What about your friends in the Marine Corps? What are they saying? Nothing. I mean, the lieutenant colonels that were closest to me in the investigation that I've made, I've gone on a couple interviews and just illustrated what they said. they've obviously gone calm silent. All these other guys that I know have come online. I've been like, that's bullshit that they did that.

And so I think they're probably having a hard time kind of reconciling what they did. I would if I were them and I can't speak for them. But I can say I've had a lot of guys speak up and say, I can't believe they did that. Like, that's so snake and the grassish. Yeah, I mean, you said you've listened to this podcast a little bit. I am a huge fan of the Marine Corps.

In fact, my family says that whenever I talk about the Marine Corps, I have a quote, and they'll joke about it. I say the Marine Corps is freaking squared away. That's what I tell. For whatever reason, I'm with my family, and the Marine Corps comes up, I'll be like, Marine Corps's freaking squared away. And it's the truth. I love the Marine Corps.

Worked along the Marine Corps. Pretty much my whole career and just I think the Marine Corps is outstanding. And this is rough. It's rough to watch this unfold. Well, to be clear, I love the Marine Corps. I think the Marine Corps is pretty squared away. but that comes from, you know, the individual is such a high caliber person, holistically in the Marine Corps. The problem is the centralization of power over time, and it kind of puts the blinders on.

So there's some fundamental things that need to be addressed, but everything that I'm doing is not from contempt or hate. It's from a place of love. I hold high regard for the Marines, and I still think highly of them. I'll tell you what you do. Do you take that 65-page draft? that you had, they got rejected. And then what did you cut it down to 30? Yeah.

So that other 35 pages, that's what you put in your book. Yeah, there you go. Because we kind of want to hear about that. There you know. Yeah. Right on. Stu, you got any closing thoughts before we shut it down? No, I'll just echo to your audience.

As I watched my saga unfold in the media, the mainstream media is so polarized right now. It was very hard to get a true assessment of like how people even felt watching the news, because it almost felt like people were taking my statements and trying to fit them into whatever their narrative was. And shows like yours, podcasts like yours, YouTube channels, I was actually getting much more accurate feedback from what people thought than mainstream media.

So I really believe going forward if the mainstream media can't figure out how to reconcile kind of their own polarized views, that platforms like yours are even more important. So I just encourage you to continue the good word, brother. Well, I will. and there's recently some information that came out about Joe Rogan, and he's just annihilating the mainstream media, which is awesome.

It's just total destruction. I mean, maybe two, three, four times what the mainstream media has for listeners, Rogan has. And he's one of, you know, he's the leader. He's the head of the pack, but there's a lot of other people out there that are doing the same thing, trying to get the word out and trying to talk in a nuanced way about things. And, you know, you're a perfect example of a guy that's going to get interviewed and have,

they're going to interview with questions for sound bites that they can make headlines that people will click. That's their goal. And so, you know, having you on here to actually give your perspective, your full perspective, say whatever you want. Like, that's the goal so people can actually hear and understand where you're coming from. and I think that's important. Yeah.

Well, thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it. Thanks for traveling all the way out here. I know you never made it to Camp Pendleton or 29 Palms for it to be stationed, but you finally got to visit San Diego at least for a little bit. Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for sharing your concerns. Thanks for sharing your lessons learned.

And I know what you did and what you're doing is not the easiest path. but you're standing by what you believe to be right and what I believe to be right, which is people need to take ownership when things happen. And that is commendable. And I hope that despite the negative impacts that this has had on you, on your life, I hope it eventually has a positive impact for the Marine Corps, for the military at large, and, of course, for America. And on top of all that, man, thanks for your story.

service. Absolutely. Yeah, hey, you're down the road, bring me back on the show. We'll see where I'm at. Awesome, man. Thank you. All right. And with that, Stuart Scheller has left the building. Definitely appreciate him coming on an interesting journey that he's been on. Yeah, just thinking about some of the stuff that he talked about, especially from, you know, at the end, start talking about the, the political ramifications of things that happen. And again, these are all things that, I talked about these things in leadership strategy and tactics, right? You give up your influence.

But at the same time, like David Hackworth, just get to that point where you're not going to take it anymore. You know, when he was talking about McKenzie, one thing that's interesting is he, and I just thought of this as right as Stu left, but he mentioned that you're in that position. The president says no to your plan, then it's your duty to turn in your rank.

And that is one way of looking at it for sure. But also, you know, the other way, and I talk about this leadership strategy and tactics, that's one thing to do. Or is it your duty to mitigate the risk of the plan that's being utilized? That's another way to look at it as well. and but here's where

either of those two options here's the point that I think is important and this is Stu would agree with this the outcome you own that that's the difference this is something that you know when Napoleon said if you if you follow orders

even if you know they're wrong and you follow orders you're culpable so that's the point so where I might disagree with Stu that it's the duty of someone to turn in their rank if they can't convince their boss or resign from their job if they can't convince their boss. That is one way of looking at it. I would say that it's your duty to execute the plan to the best of your ability and then take ownership of the fact that you didn't, weren't able to convince your boss. Take ownership of the fact that the plan that executed was one that.

you agreed to execute and you did and it failed and it's your fault. So just to, again, I'm sure, you know, we'll be able to talk about this some more in the future, but I wanted to, as I was walking back upstairs after walking out, Stu, just thinking about that fact of, look, again, one way to say it is it's your duty to turn in your rank. In my opinion, it's your duty to either turn to your rank or take ownership of the plan and take ownership of the outcome of the plan. That's what you do. So a little nuance on that.

But appreciate him coming on. And again, trying to be able to allow someone to share their entire perspective. So he's trying to do the right thing. We're all trying to do the right thing. Yep. We should be trying to do the right thing. I think so too, yeah. And I think that starts with, you know, improving ourselves.

Yes. Trying to do the right things in our own world. It's true. Yeah. Seems like something we all should be doing. Yes. Echo Charles, any recommendations on how we might do that? Yes.

I will so. Well, okay, so my recommendations are, but there's these four things. There's actually eight, but these four things, and they're divided into two, each one, right? As far as recommendations to do to improve yourself, So you have your relationships. There's two kinds of relationships, my opinion.

Or that can be categorized, I think. There's your health and capability, two things. Your money and what you do with your time and your worldview and spirituality. The four things, essentially. So you want to improve that. If you feel like you're lacking in any one of those, Pay attention to it try to improve it good news about that about this whole thing good news We have things that'll help you improve all these things

That's a good that's a good let's start with the physical actually the physical part of it I think is is a big one you know and so well you once said early on this particular podcast sure that The physical one will positively influence all of them yes and factually factually and what I didn't say which is equally as true. The physical one will negatively impact all of them. Oh, look at that. If you let it slide. I'm telling you. I actually wrote about both those things in leadership.

Oh, no, in the Disciplineal Freedom Field Manual. Oh, yeah. And, you know, we all heard that, hey, if you don't have your health, you don't have anything, like, you know, like that whole thing. I mean, yeah, think about it.

Like, if you're like, okay, let's say you have the best, you just landed the best job. And it pays a lot and you love doing it. But you can't walk up a flight of stairs. Can't walk up the, up the floor. Or you now, are at risk of X, Y, Z, terminal diseases. Yeah.

No one takes that. Yeah. That's not a good situation regardless of how much money you're making. Or what if you have great, great relationships? Intimate, family, friends, great. But you neglected your health. Now you're on the path to demise. Does that help your relationships?

No. Does it hurt your relationship? Oh, yeah, everybody's sad, including you, by the way. Either way, you see where I'm going with this. All right. So let's take care of our physical health. Let's improve our physical health. I like it.

Never too late to start, in my opinion. Well, after you're dead, a little bit too late. But as long as we listen to this, we're alive and we're doing it. Good news. We have some supplementation to help you on this path. Physical and mental. Boom. Here we go.

Okay. So a big one that I actually, I don't want to say I didn't pay attention to it because I do take it every day, but it just sort of just take it as the vitamin D3. That's immunity. That's all. It's a lot of things. That's a big one. Yeah.

I feel like when I got Miss Rona. Yeah. No factor, really. Partially because of vitamin D. I mean, I'm thinking. So I'm going to give you, I have the exact same story. So, yeah, the first time we caught it that was last, 2020, right? Here's, I'll tell you.

I don't know. I didn't test positive technically, but here, look, we went end of 2020, right? That's when we got it. Yeah. No symptoms at all. Mm-hmm. Not even like the only actually I don't want to say no to I lost my sense of smell right that's it no fever and no cough No fat off no no fever no cough no temperature no factor didn't miss a workout

Nothing my workouts as I reviewed I just noticed that my workouts were a little bit weaker than normal but I just thought I was over training or something like this Yeah you have a bad day. Yeah No factor and then um yeah boom right well they say if you have a fever you should didn't work out. You can have a cold, but if you don't have a fever, you can still work out. Your body will still, like, respond correctly. That's what I hear.

I don't know. So this kind of recently, we'll say, an undisclosed time, members of my family took a coronavirus test, tested positive. So took the test, no quarantine. There's very many good reasons to believe that I, whatever they had that my family member had, I got it too. Reasonably, I'm not going to go into how or why, all this stuff. The next day after that, the results come back positive, right? From my family members. Test, positive.

Same deal. Of course, I got it. I had to have got it. Technically, I didn't go take a test and test positive, so I don't know. Full disclosure. So, again, no symptoms. No symptoms. No fever, no cough.

No factor. No cough. No factor. In fact, so technically, I got coronavirus on paper. That's what I got. Not in real life. Not in the field. There was no coronavirus to be seen or heard or felt anything.

It was only on paper. I attribute that to, I think anyway, the care that I took of my immunity. Vitamin D3. Cold War, by the way. Cold War, by the way. Cold War is like if you see something on the horizon. Boom, Cold War all day. Oh, yeah.

Preemptive strike on that. Yes, sir. Savagery. Yep. So we got all that. Jocco, Fuel, Cold War, vitamin D3. We got stuff for your joints. joint warfare.

You know, it's a theme. Everything is war against this bad stuff. Yeah, that's right. Because that's kind of what it is. There's kind of a theme there, isn't there? Surprisingly enough, our theme is a war. War against weakness. Oregon's disease.

Or robots. War against robots, by the way. Just in case. Actually, we like robots from time to time. Nonetheless, okay. Also, if you like energy drinks, or if you would like energy drinks, but you don't want the health,

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path and you're down for energy drink scenario this is 100% the one it'll keep you on the path not off you drink a bad energy drinks you're kind of off the path let's face it not this one boom on the mook don't forget about mok and look you're going to get situations where you're in your life where you have you're on the path you're feeling good you're disciplined and you just ate a freaking salad with a chicken breast super healthy oh yeah hell yeah yeah Then you want a little something afterwards. Yes. We got you covered.

Get a milk. Oh, yeah. And you're, you can have dessert. Yep. That's 100% good for you. Yeah. So we had a scenario. Actually, I shouldn't even say it because they kind of fell off the path a little.

But we had a scenario. A friend of a friend. Daughter birthday scenario. Cake was involved. Big chock. And it was like a cupcake, but it was like way bigger. Yeah. But it wasn't as big as like a regular size cake.

I don't cake's not that tempting to me because I only like the frosting okay I'm one of those guys this one was a chocolate what is frosting do you know what it actually is what is it's well it depends on what kind but um normal I don't know butter there's a lot of butter in it butter sugar flavoring there's like a flavoring of some sort um like chocolate frosting it's just butter sugar and chocolate and like cream I think that's pretty much it yeah that's the part I like there's a lot of cake part I don't like that's why cupcake not really my thing bro I'm an exact opposite and there's six of them and they're huge so you know the kids eat some it's a birthday I get them let it slide but bro those

big cupcakes there's a lot of leftovers I'm just saying that's a lot of you and ham you know but here's the thing that I only ate one meal that day so technically you know but it was it was weakness what does that do with moke I know so you should have had a I should have had a moke. I should have a milk. Would have fulfilled the whole thing. Here's the thing. It was an opportunity.

It was like, what do you call it? One like the bad guys come in at a. Target of opportunity. Yes, exactly right. It snuck up on you. Oh yeah, bro.

You got beat by a freaking cupcake. I was sorry, but I totally did. I was doing something in the kitchen and there was like a container of the leftovers. You know how people when you're younger, you're like gonna go out with your friends drinking and you do like, oh, we're going to pregame.

You ever heard of that? Yes, sir. I have. We're going to pregame. Here's a little hint. A little hint for everybody. Let's say you're going to watch the UFC at your friend's house. Or you're going to, you know, your wife's got a friend that has some part, you know, whatever.

You're going to some unknown realm. Well, you're not sure what's going to be eaten. Pregame with a milk. Pregame with a milk. That way they show up, look, they show up with, you know, pizza. And instead of eating nine pieces of pizza, you just had a milk. you're good. You're so correct.

You're so good. Maybe you have a piece. You know? We're going to be social. You're a piece of pizza. It tastes good. Whatever. Oh, yeah.

So I'd get before, back in the day, a long time ago, I'd get, I'd order sushi, right? And, you know, sure, some people in the room don't really, aren't really into sushi. I am. Very much so. And I get it when I'm, like, super hungry. Next to the sushi spot is a place you can get milkshake. So every once in a while, I'd get a milkshake, too. If you drink some of the milkshake before the sushi,

It's like you're not even that hungry for the sushi anymore. Counterproductive. Yeah. Because it's not only is there calories for sure, but it's like sweet. And you know what it does your brain. You accidentally pregameed. I pregamed with the wrong thing, by the way. You pregame with the wrong.

But what point is, it's absolutely true. You pregame with the monk. Or if you're going to go out to dinner where it's like, hey, we're going to this place. It's not necessarily that healthy. We're going out for Italian food. Yes. Look, you're going to get the chicken parm, which is kind of, you know,

we're borderline. We're brushing up against, but you're still going to have some pasta with it. So, no, pregame. Yeah. Pregame. That's what I'm saying. A little hint for the world. Bro, that's a good, actually really good advice.

I mean, I do that all the time. The other thing you got to watch out for is you go, this is another situation. Hey, we're going to a dinner party. You ever go to it, like one of those? The people aren't on top of things, right? So you show up at five. You tell me we're going to a dinner party. That means we're going to be eating dinner.

We show up at five. Next thing I know, it's seven o'clock that we haven't eaten. Yeah, yeah. Now I'm not happy about the scenario, right? Sure. Because guess what? It's not that you're not eating because they're putting out freaking chips and whatever. Appetizers.

Yeah. So pregame. Yeah. Pregame. That's what I'm saying. Pregame with the milk. Hey, I don't want to get too technical, though, now that I just realize it does. It's actually kind of the opposite.

It is a pregame technically, but does the opposite of a drinking pregame. I've always heard of. pregame as the drinking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's the only way I have it for the drinking pregame, you drink to get more. Lickered up. Lickered up. You don't drink

the milk to get more full, I guess. I guess, kind of. It's a positive pregame, that's what we're talking about. So pregame nonetheless, very constructive, very beneficial. If you want any of this stuff, go to joccofuel.com. If you subscribe to it, shipping is free. If you want to pick up some of the energy drinks, that's actually good for you. Go to Wawa.

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Right Oh yeah This is stuff that you actually need. This is the, what do you need? Well, you need, you need, you need jeans, you need shorts, you need a sweatshirt, you need a t-shirt, you need a beanie. There's the stuff you need. You need boots. You need a ghee.

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all made it 100% made in America up 100% down to the thread down to the rivets on the jeans the zippers on the jeans you know the buttons even even the buttons it's true bro it's true also jocco's store if you want to represent on the path discipline equals freedom the idea good if something happens it's not that great there's going to be some good that anyway if you want to represent jocco store.com That's where you can go. We also have a subscription situation called the shirt locker. And these are additional designs that you can only get once.

Well, I guess now if you're a member, you can log back in the store and get other designs from before. So we do have that feature. That's a big deal. We didn't have that before. I'm just saying it's a new feature. Oh, yeah. Put this guy in for a Nobel Peace plan here on that one. It's a good one.

It's a good one. It's a big deal, man. It's a big deal. Did you put release a news article about that? That's what's available. Let's just say it's a big deal. You see what I'm saying. But yes, jocco store.com.

You want to represent. You want to check it out. If you like something, get something. Also subscribe to this podcast. We also have the unraveling podcast. We have the Groundup podcast, the Warrior Kid podcast. We can also join us at the underground, jocco underground. There's weird things happening out there.

There's people being banned, shadow banned. There's videos being censored, Which is crazy. Yeah. Like we talk about China and the fact that they ban parts of the internet and social media. They, you are not allowed. And here it is happening here. In America, oddly enough.

What is the, what do you think is like the above board? Not even above board. What is the motive you think, and banning someone? Driving a narrative. I feel, I'm sorry, man. I feel like someone who's response, I mean, I'm sure there's a group of people who are responsible for that and they're kind of running the banning. But what is it like, what is the conclusion that they come to to be like, you know what? We should really just ban this person.

They're driving a narrative. They're driving a narrative. And here's what sucks is the worst thing you can do to try and drive a narrative is not let people talk. Because if someone has a dumb idea, the best thing you can do is let them talk about their dumb idea. So we can say, hey, here's why your idea is dumb. What's scary is when we let ego get involved? And instead of me saying, you know what, Echo's got an opinion, I'm not sure if he's right or not, but I think he's wrong. So therefore, I'm going to ban him.

I should be like, well, Echo's got an idea. If that idea actually has merit, we should bring it out in the open. We should talk about it and see if it's right or wrong. Or maybe not necessarily right or wrong. This is what's scary. Not necessarily right or wrong. Everyone wants everything to be black or white. Science.

Science isn't black and white. Science changes. So when you say something is wrong, how many things are actually wrong? Not too many, especially when you have evolving situations, whether they're political situations, medical situations, these things evolve. And so to just say, you know what, we're not going to let you talk about your idea is really crazy. And it's happening. That's why we made the Jocko Underground. Jocco underground.com.

It's a place that we control. We don't control this platform that you're listening to right now, unless you're on the underground. So if you want to help us out in the underground, have a little sanctuary of freedom. You can go to jocco underground.com. You can subscribe.

It costs $8.18 a month. We do an additional podcast to say thank you, answer your questions, talk about some correlating subjects. So check that out. If you can't afford it, we still want you in the game. We still want you to be free. So you can email assistance at jocco underground.com.

If you want some of that. We have a YouTube channel, by the way, where we are making really good videos. Straight up. Look, man. It's really, really, really good. The video that you's made with the robots. Oh, yeah.

Yes. That was insanely impressive. Did you put it on the YouTube channel? Uh, I'll, yes. Put it on the YouTube channel. Yes.

Because that is really good. Like, I was very impressed. Look, I know you're good. I'm not trying to say that I have low expectations. I have the highest of expectations.

Sure. Because you made some really good stuff in the past. I love it. But this one, and you know what? To be honest with you, I wasn't even the assistant director

on this one. Kind of bummed me out. Okay. Made it a little bit better. All right. There's a couple little pointers I could have added, you know?

A couple little plot line. Could have been a little bit, you know, tightened up. But from a graphics perspective, it was amazing. So if you want to check out some of those videos

that Echo Charles makes in his head and then makes him in actuality, subscribe to that. Origin USA has a cool channel too. Subscribe to that. I made, you know what I made?

I made a MP3 album. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Psychological warfare, of course. Yeah. That's the one. This album you talk about

it does have tracks on it. Each track is literally the solution for any moment of weakness you might have. The common ones. Apparently, I need to make one for cupcakes. Well, because you got ambushed by a cupcake, bro. It was,

that was like, it was like too fast for me to be like, oh, let me pop in freaking psychological warfare. I don't even think I have my phone. You got ambush. I got, Hey,

hey, look. It's not. What used to be 100% as effective is now no longer. Well, I didn't put it in. If I put it in and I still chose. I still chose to eat the oversized cupcake, which had a very large front end benefit, by the way.

Then it would not have been 100%. But, you know, I chose not to, you know, to put it in. But nonetheless, you put it in 100% effectiveness. It'll get you past these moments, these common moments of weakness. Skipping the workout. Nope. You won't skip the workout. But today.

I wasn't about to skip the workout at all. But, you know, every time when you talk about like, oh, yeah, when you wake up. And it's cold, but it's so warm in the bed. Yeah. Today was literally like that this morning. It's a little chilly out there. Didn't need it, though. A little chilly out there.

It actually even took a cold shower to kind of prove to yourself. I got the cold tub. Oh, yeah, I get into it. Brother, the cold shower, you know how they say one of the benefits is like it exercises your mind to do something you really don't want to do? So that way, like, mentally everything else seems like, I don't know, easier or whatever. I guess even though you really don't that's not the first thing you want to do go in a cold shower or cold dumb when you wake up usually but when you get out you do feel like dang you some other stuff got awakened in your body or whatever it's a good way to

wake up yep it's true um flipside canvas dot com dakota mire making cool stuff to hang on your wall check that out got a bunch of books final spin somebody just put posted the last page of final spin, which we got to admit, it's kind of cool. So I was like, it looks so cool to see that last page posted because the way it's laid out and stuff. Final spin, check that out, leadership strategy and tactics field manual, the code, the evaluation protocol, discipline, freedom field manual.

Way the warrior kid, one, two, three, four. Get your kids on the path. Get the neighbors on the path. Mikey and the Dragons, about faced by Hackworth, quoted from it today. extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership that I wrote with my brother Lafabbin. Also, we have a leadership consultancy, Aeschon Front. Leadership is the solution to your problems.

I don't know what your problems are, but I know leadership is the solution inside your organization. Go to Eschlonfront.com for details on that. You can also check out some of the live events that we have. We have the muster two-day conference. We have field training exercises, which are two days. You spend out in the field, learn how to. a maneuver and then lead in simulated combat missions, you will feel your leadership improve battlefield, where we go on and walk historical battlefields and talk about the lessons learned

from the good and bad calls made by leaders. So check all of that stuff out at eshlamfront.com. We also have an online training academy for you to assist you in taking ownership of your life, the various skills in life that will make you better, that will put you in a better position. That will help you overcome scenarios that we all face. So if you want to take ownership of your life, go to extreme ownership.com. I'm on there two, three times a week live.

You want to ask me a question? Go on there and ask me a question. You want to dive a little bit deeper into extreme ownership? Go on there. We have courses that you can go through. When you want to put your team through extreme ownership training, go on there. Get your team unified behind the same principles. Extremeownership.com.

If you want to help service members active and retire, their families, gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization that does incredible things for veterans and their families if you want to donate or you want to get involved go to america's mighty warriors dot org and if you want to hear more from me talking a little too much or you want to hear from echo who's barely talking and still talking a little bit too much you can find us on the interweb on the gram on Facebook on Twitter Echoes at Equit, with Charles.

I'm at Jockle Wink. I'm also on, what's it called? Getter, getter, G-E-T-T-R. I'm on there now too. I'm on there. Also, check out Stuart Scheller at Stuart Scheller on all those different categories. And he's also got that website,

AuthenticAmericans.com. And thanks once again to Stuart Scheller for coming on, sharing his view on things. Thanks to him for trying to make a difference. And thanks again, Stuart Scheller. for your service in the Marine Corps to our country. And thanks to all the military personnel out there right now, trying to make a difference in the world,

trying to keep it safe for freedom by doing what few people will do. And the same goes for our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, all first responders. Thank you for keeping us safe and protecting freedom. Here at home and everyone else out there,

there are a lot of forces at work in the world. A lot of strings being pulled, a lot of decisions being made. There are agendas and personalities, and people sometimes look out for their own self-interest. And that's okay sometimes. In most cases, that's good. Because when we're all looking out for our own self-interest, then collectively we're moving forward.

But sometimes people's self-interest starts to hurt others. especially from a strategic perspective when people start to look at their own self-interest and it helps them but it hurts us as a whole from a strategic perspective that's when you may have to step up and try and do it tactfully and try and do it through influence and by building relationships and by guiding others in the right direction and if none of that works then think strategically about how to handle your next steps do the calculus don't let your emotions drive your decisions think about that indirect approach from b.H. Liddell Hart think about the effectiveness or the ineffectiveness of being direct and then make sure you are staying true

to your principles and what you believe in after all in the end you have to look yourself in the mirror and you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know that you did the right things for the right reasons so move with caution but also with conviction and until next time this is echo and jocco out