Jocko Podcast - 318: Even When The Uniform Comes Off, You Have a Lot To Offer. With Micah Fink.

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

0:00:00 - Opening0:04:53 - Micah Fink. 4:17:30 - How to stay on THE PATH.4:38:50 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 318 with Echo Charles and me Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. The Native Americans believed that if you gave someone a diagnosis, it was a curse. It was a curse that can become an identity if you accept it. But a rewiring can happen when you realize that you are the one creating your own experience. This is a long and truthful conversation with yourself. How can we learn and evolve from our successes and our failures?

Where do we need to change? How can a person find solace and sovereignty in the face of experience that has been shaped by such pressure? Amense hardship, bad choices, chemical manipulation, digital stimulation, and sophisticated programming that teaches you to kill antiquated ways fail and repeat the same answers and produce the same results it's time to take charge of change you are not the victim of this life but rather the victim of your own choices truth is found within oneself but to get to that truth you have to peel back the layers to who you are it's self-work and self-knowing that creates profound change.

Today we have an addiction problem. We are addicted to other people's ideas. We become the victim of our experience. We take magic pills or become convinced by false prophets as to what will fix us or make us happy. We just want to relieve hurt and make it go away. But running from pain only magnifies the pain. We are born to honor what is good while striving for our highest self. You have to be open to everything and close to nothing.

The heat, the cold, your weaknesses, failures and successes, your loss and your regrets. Face them. Face yourself. This is the most important and difficult battle you have ever been in. Alexander the great once said, bury me with my hands out of the ground so the world can see that I left it with nothing. That is the plan. You change your own life from within, always from within, never outside.

It's 100% in you. Life is not here to punish us, but it's here to help us grow in wisdom and knowledge and to ensure we never again are a victim of life. the time is now. And that is a compilation of words that I put together that were written by or spoken by or implied by a man by the named of Micah Think. And I think you're going to see that through his path in life, in boyhood and business and war and combat and service and sacrifice, it's allowed him to learn some valuable lessons.

and his goal is to teach those lessons. Or if not the lessons themselves, then at least teach other people how to learn those lessons, how to rewire themselves to be who you want to be, to be who you can be. And we are lucky enough to have Micah with us here tonight to share some of those lessons. So Micah, thanks for coming by, man.

Thanks, buddy. Man, that was intense. Yeah. That was fucking awesome. Yeah, you've got a bunch of clips out and stuff that you've written on your website. And I just pulled from some of it and watched some of your videos and pulled from some of that to try and give people a feel for sort of where you're at. But in order to get to where you're at, I guess we start at the beginning. Yeah.

Where have you been? Yeah. Where have you been? So where did all you've been? start man you know uh i uh i kind of always start was like yeah i was just a small town kid from upstate new york and i laugh because if you would have told me when i was a kid that i would be doing the things that i'm doing today i would have i probably would have hit you over the head with a frying pan i just uh i feel really fortunate to uh you know to now be in a place where

i can i can take the experiences in my life that at a point did break me down and now kind of show people that those experiences are the greatest ally that they have in this journey of self-discovery that we're all on. And I grew up my dad, you know, I grew up tough family, you know. My dad was, you know, seven brothers and sisters, and grandfather was a mob guy, and so he was in federal prison, you know, for 10 years. Were you alive then? No, no, it was.

This is before you were born. Yeah, it was before I was born. But he had a tough life. And so he grew up as an orphan on the streets. This is your dad? My dad's dad, my grandfather. Who I was super close to. He died when I was 16.

And I was really close to him. He was a hard man. And he grew up as an orphan and ended up turning his life around. I guess you could say much later in his life, he came the head of the railroad union. And, you know, my dad always tells the story when their life. kind of started straightening out and fast forward a little bit my my dad said they used to go back he was a engineer in the railroad and uh he said he used to go back in the caboose my grandfather would be running all these card games you know i'm hustling doing this and that and my dad would come back and say

pa i thought what are you doing back here i thought you're a christian and he's like you can't gamble and he's like well with me it's a sure thing so it's not gambling because he was a card counter He could count cards. But, you know, so it was like real blue-collar family, railroad family. And, you know, my dad, my dad grew up in that kind of life. So my grandfather was a pretty severe guy in those years. So did your dad grow, did your grandfather live in also in upstate? Or was he down in the city?

So he was upstate. He was in the city. And then family moved upstate New York. And then mother and father died of alcoholism. And then I think nine of the brothers and sisters were street kids, basically. They were orphans. And then my grandfather kept escaping. and matter of fact, he broke his leg as an orphan was taken back to the home,

had to get surgery, and you want to talk about having it rough, they circumcised him. He was 10. Yeah, he was an orphan kid, so they brought him in there. They're just like, I'll give a little snip. But, yeah, so it was an interesting kind of upbringing because my dad grew up, and he went to the 82nd Airborne, was either go to prison or go to Vietnam-type deal. And my dad was a really, really rough guy. like he's the epitome of a tough guy,

like a real tough, like a violent tough guy. And he wound up in prison. And he wound up in Lemworth. And what, was this before you were born? Was this after you were born? So this was before I was born.

So my mom and Dan have been together since 15 or 16. My dad had to join the military. Did he go to Vietnam? Well, he was supposed to go to Vietnam, but then he wound up going to prison. Which Vietnam might have been better. But yeah,

he never had, that balance in his life, you know, and, you know, it's interesting. My mom and dad, I think, 56 years or something they've been together. But yeah, my dad went to Leavenworth and he got in some trouble in the military, of course, and he was riding with all the biker gangs, stuff like that. And, I mean, he doesn't, every tooth in my dad's head's head's been punched out. He's got 100-something stitches across his head. And, you know, he kind of just, he had it rough. And he hit rock bottom. And he got out and he ended up becoming a Christian. And then I was,

so his prison time was in the military. Yeah, he went to Leavenworth. Yep. Yep. Yep. So he went to Leavenworth. And how long was he in Leavenworth for? A couple years.

And then after that it was whatever dishonorable discharge most likely. Yeah. And then he got out and he just, like, took a bus back, basically. So he owed a bunch of money to, like, the Hell's Angels and those kind of guys. So they like took everything when he went to prison, robbed him blind, basically. And so we got out with nothing. And, you know, when I was a kid, like, my Christmases were spent, like, in the city missions. You know, every single Christmas we were in the slums and the hoods.

We had people in my house, like, straight out of prison. Like, my dad used to always tell me when I was a kid, he's like, you know why I come here? He said I come here because I never want to forget where I came from. And my mom said that when my dad, when she met him, he had a van, 56 panel van that said, no hope without dope. He can never figure out why you have getting pulled over all the time. But like, so he was rough, you know, he was a, he was a rough guy. And matter of fact, I know, because as a kid, people would come up to my dad. They wouldn't believe that, you know, it was him. And he was, he was a violent human being. And the kind of person has nothing to lose. And he was

tough. And he was a boxer and he was a street fighter. And so, yeah, so my dad gets out and he ends up He coming walking down the street, like lowest point of his life. And he sees, like, the windows open in church and the lights on. And he decides he's going to walk in there. And he sits in the back. Zizi top-looking guy. If you look at the pictures, he's got the huge beard with, you know, the jacket with 87 patches on it, you know, rats and stuff. And tattoos, he had, like, Jesus smoking pot on his arm.

Man, all kinds of crazy stuff. And he has an experience, like, in that church. And nobody talked to him. Like, nobody would even come up to him. and they just looked at him like, whoa, this is a scary guy. And he turned his life around right there in that moment. And so I was born in 79. My sister was born in 77.

And my dad had to figure out how to put his life together. So my grandfather got him hooked up on the railroad. And I ended up becoming an engineer and working on the railroad through until I was in second grade. And then he started a church in a really rural town of 600 people. So we were a real point. when I grew up. We all lived in the same bedroom. So how many brothers and sisters was it?

So one sister. Just the one sister? Just the one sister, yeah. And this is still in upstate New York? Yeah. And then they started doing the tent revivals. So when I was a kid, I always tell people, I'm like, listen, I, at the time, I had become, and I'm not a religious guy, like, but I had become, I would get saved, like,

pretty much three to four times a week. I've been, I have been saved more than any human being in North America, because you would hear these guys, and they would start preaching, you know, the crescendo would build and the worms in the hell and the then I'm like I'm like you know I've been kind of touching my penis or something I'm like I should I'm kidding I would just be at my hand up I was like I moved my way up to the blanket guy where I when the people would fall down I would rush in with a little blanket and laid over them um which a lot of them are faking because I was like man these people kind of just fall down like before they even get up there sometimes they would just

they would get over the power or whatever so I'd have these little blankets you I'm like seven or eight years old, I'd run up with the blanket. And I'd always like step on their finger. And they'd be like, hey. So then I was like, I started questioning things. I really did start questioning things. Sometimes they'd push you down on the ground. But that was a crazy experience.

You know, we traveled all around. Was it all around the country you'd travel or just like? Upstate New York. Okay. Upstate New York, you know. So it was a, I remember the 80s. It was kind of a wild time for that kind of stuff that people would get the laughing spells. And like, you know, there was all these kinds of.

of things going on. And so I ended up, uh, I ended up leaving home at 16. So, and I lived in my own from then on. And where'd you move to? I kind of moved around the country. Uh, and, uh, yeah, so I ended up, uh, moving, uh, down in South Florida and, uh, getting a job down there and working. And, and, uh, what were you doing in South Florida? Uh, my grandmother lived down there. And I lived, uh, I was homeless for a little while. I was homeless for some months down there. And, uh, I'd gotten, you know, had gotten in some trouble. I was also a very rough kid, as you could imagine. The thing about that whole movement, looking back now retrospectively,

is the guilt and the fear and all the things that are associated with that. What movement? Yeah, the revival movement and all that kind of stuff. And it was never about love, you know, and I mean, to me, like, that loving yourself and not judging yourself and all those kind of things. It wasn't associated with that at the time. And so as soon as I got old enough, you know, around 15, I, well, I started working at 10. And, yeah, I had my first job on a dairy farm.

And then my time I was 14 years old, I was working 35, 40 hours a week sometimes. And that was kind of my life. Were you going to school? Yeah, I was going to school. So I'd get out of school. Sometimes I worked at 10 o'clock at night. I'd work all the weekends. I'd work Sunday afternoons.

And then I started working for our family as a lineman. First, I was like to pick up the sticks guy. You know, I'd run around and move the trucks and do all these things. And then slowly, anything you get off of dairy, I don't really drink milk because of that. Milk is a disturbing product. Like, it is just, sorry, like, New Horizon organics or whatever, but it's nasty. Like, it's a nasty thing, you know. And my job was to clean the udders and stick these little suckers on there.

And, you know, these old bags kicking you in the shit, on you and it's the worst thing. And then the milk goes in there and there's the flies and the cat's licking it up everywhere. And then these things got to be like constantly, you know, kept pregnant. You know, so they're like in this perpetual state of pregnancy to get them to keep lactating, you know. And the only thing I wanted to do is just get the hell away from it. So, yeah, I ended up, uh, ended up becoming alignment. So I learned I'd do line work, start climbing telephone poles when I was 13 and, uh,

start making like good money doing that. So, um, I didn't do. do that down in Florida. I did a bunch of other things. And then I, yeah, that was a really, really rough time in my life. Matter of fact, we were just down in Florida and I was driving through some of the areas I used to live in. I could remember being so hungry, like, going in the grocery store and just living in, like, just, like, grabbing, like, food and just, like, seeing, like, the big fat security guy, like, just looking at me, like, and I would do the whole, kind of like Julio Jones like, you know, and usually I'd make it out with like one tenth of

what I had. Like, and I remember this particular package of sausage that I had. Who are you hanging around with? What was the, what was going on? I ended up, I had met some guys when I was younger and that were kind of passing through. There were like street guys. And at the time. Passing through upstate New York.

Yeah. They were like selling shit and, you know, kind of rough crew. And so I actually showed up at the. house. In Florida. Yeah. And I was, you know, I was in some, I was in some pretty big trouble at the time. And I, uh, I was on my, I wasn't living at all anyway. And so I moved down there and I stayed down there until I was 20. And, and then I moved back home. I had like 30 grand on me and, and a car and all kinds of stuff. And I moved back home with a, with a stripper girlfriend. I got that out of my system. So when I got the stripper briefing, the team, and the

teams. I was like, boys. I was there when I was 17. Don't do it. Yeah, so I moved back home. My life was kind of like in a tailspin, honestly. I had money, had things, and I had a real hardship on my shoulder. And I just, you know, I had kind of become like my father, I guess, in a sense, where I was, I could be violent. I was pissed off. I was just angry. Once your dad found like God, was he still pissed off and angry? No, but inversely, he was really hard. He was a hard man, like hard, you know. I never looked at God as like God is love and he wants to like care for us and Jesus

with the lamb and stuff. You're like Old Testament God. Old Testament God, like it would take the stab. Those are the stories I heard, you know, like the ones you never hear. You'll hear like, Jesus just loves everybody. And then if you don't listen to them like, worms are going to come suck your brains out and you're going to burn in hell. And by the way, like, I mean, I mean, it was like that.

That was the revival days. It was the fire and brimstone. And so I was afraid of it, to be honest. And I didn't like the whole thing. I didn't like the hypocrisy and that whole movement and stuff. And so as soon as I got old enough, you know, I had a bunch of money. I had worked my whole life. That's what I did.

I put my head down and I worked. I worked really hard. And that's kind of all I knew. I was an excessive compulsive worker. And, you know, when I left, I was on my own. I had like, I had no, like, balance in my life. So, yeah, I, uh, I moved back home. I started doing line work again.

And actually a big turning point for me was that I, uh, um, I went on a backpacking trip by myself and I ended up kind of having this experience out there with a bear. It was like a little black bear or whatever. And I kind of just started like thinking about my whole life and, and how I just wasn't ready to die. I wasn't ready to, that there was something else missing. And I walked out of there and I, I literally after that moment, I kind of changed my whole life.

It was nothing religious. Where was, where were you at? In the Adirondex. Yeah, kind of where I grew up going to all the time. And so, yeah, so I ended up getting back on a line crew, climbing telephone poles again. And now I look back, like when I was a teenager working on these line crews, I would spend the summers living in New York City.

And I was living with grown men that were shooting heroin and, you know, living in these, they would put me up in these hotels. And I would live in these with these guys. that were like vagrants you know they were they were like they would travel from city to city on these huge contracts and I would be down there for the week and um yeah that was a that was tough you know because I was a kid matter of fact I remember there was a guy I'll never forget him I won't say his name he's probably dead now but he was like six foot eight he was the scariest guy was from long island okay his brother was another gigantic dude and they were the hairiest people like I've

ever seen my life okay I've never seen men that hairy in my life until I met you And then these guys were like, these guys were like fucking Lebanese butchers. And they had the deepest voices. And I get put on a splicing crew with this guy. And I remember I'm, you know, I'm 16. It's right before I left. I'm living in the city. I'm living with all these guys.

And, of course, they would never give me a bed. I'd be in the corner, my little, like, sleeping bag, you know, and they'd be doing their things. And I remember this guy would never talk to me. And he would always flick his cigarettes at me. And he was just constantly smoking pot. all the time. And you're 16 at this point? Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm down there with this guy and I'm like, he has a van, like a white like murderer van filled with all his cable stuff and his heads like

touches the ceilings in it and he'd always be like he always called me loser or fuck pay or whatever. Like any name, except for my name, he would call me. He had the deepest voice that he's covered in here. And I remember we're in Long Island and I mean, most kids are like playing like basketball and they're out there like trying to like, you know, make out with their girl. friend like high school prom like I'm there with this dude Jim and I remember we're in Long Island I'm like setting the cones up or whatever and and I'm not doing it fast enough or good enough everything's getting paid by the units and I remember he's like he's in the bucket above and he just looks at me and he starts swearing at me and he takes like a bolt and he throws it down

he hits me in the side of the head with him my heart had it and like I mean it rang my bell freaking dude had a wing on him too huh so he just like whips it down like fuck Like and I like remember I like rocked back and I like I went around the side of the truck and I started like kind of crying. I was like So then I like I just snapped and so I started like taking all the cones I started screaming and throwing them into the road and cars like laying on their horns. This is in New York and I'm like and then I run over and I grab the emergency controls in the bucket and I'm like And he's like flopping and shit's coming everywhere and he's screaming. Oh, I'm going to go and kill you and I'm like crying. I'm like uh like and I'm pushing all the tools under the ground. I'm throwing everything everywhere. I'm kicking the truck.

I'm going crazy. So finally, after like 30 seconds of going crazy on the controls, I can see as like, this dude's going to murder me. So he just like stands up when I stop and he's like,

you're dead. You're dead. He says to me. And I'm like, so I just grab a huge pipe off the thing and I'm like, and I'm out on the road and I'm just bawling my eyes out.

I'm like, come on, I'm like screaming. And he's like, he's like coming down. his little bucket out. I'm the tears and people are laying on their horns and shit's everywhere. And he looked at me and he's like,

he gets down like just like out of reach from me and I'm hitting the truck. I'm like, you're like, and he probably would have killed me. And then he just like looked at me. He's like, and he went back up. He made a good decision.

And I was like, so that he's like, pick up everything, you piece of shit. He says to me like, and so I'm out there picking everything up. And sure enough, like I got to live.

in the house with the guy so i like you know i go back the week's over and of course we go back up you know he's it was like nothing happened you know and i would ride back up there and he would just be like smoking like joint after joint listening to the lead zeppelin you would like look at me you'd get done it you go and you like flick it at me and like hit my pants and i'd brush it off and they'd be like and they'd like he'd like keep driving so i mean that was kind of like you know i always like joke about like when i got in the military like i was already kind of like a I wasn't afraid of much at that point like in the sense of like I just had had had a lot of experiences you know I had grown up on my own and grown up you know pretty

rough and so I end up starting my own line crew and hiring of some of my delinquent friends that I grew up with you know and and I happen to be in Queens New York and at this point I really did turn my life around and I'm in Queens New York when the first plane hit the World Trade Center So September 11th, I go to the yards in Long Island, pick up all my equipment. We used to store everything in these huge yards just outside the city. And I'm going to get some of this here. I got like, eat some go juice. And I get all the stuff loaded up.

We used to just go down there to be dudes standing out in the street and I would give them cash. So I'd be like, who needs a job? You know, like, who's got a driver's license? I'm like, all right, 100 bucks. Get in. And we'd hire like a ground guy. And I was making big.

money at the time. And I bought myself like an Audi, which I would not advise. Wait what? Was there something wrong with the Audies? Well, I mean, I didn't realize that when it broke. I could afford to fix it like that. And they do break. Who were your friends that you were hanging out with? Who are these dudes? So like I only really kind of ever had like the same friends kind of growing up. So the same crew from Catskill. Yeah. Move down with you. The guy, yeah. So they would work with me during the week. We'd live down there and the weekends they'd go home. So we'd leave Sunday night at like 3 o'clock in the morning or whatever. And then we'd be there to work Monday.

And then we had a place that we'd rent and we'd live down there, work all week and then come back up. Weren't you in a band or something too? Yeah, yeah. I played in a funk ska band. Shout out the funk shop Loomis. I think everyone's probably dead in that band. And were you guys playing gigs back then? Yeah, so we were playing gigs back then.

So I ended up, man, I wish I had a, my wife has a great picture of me at the house with my band. I had platinum blonde hair. and like my ears pierced and they're like stretched out and I got the oh the whole thing huh oh yeah so this is like so this is 1999 I started playing drums as a kid in church as a you know play that gospel music you know so when you weren't covering people up with blankets so it's all those kind of like old gospel chops and and so I started playing drums when I was eight and you know I wasn't like that we ended up kind of moving out of being you know really poor and and um you know kind of got to like i guess you could say like i guess what would be considered

middle class or whatever you know yeah because your dad had a legit job but then you didn't get in the railroad yeah but he left the railroad and that's when we kind of went down because god was gonna pass yeah and so you guys were gigging you were in a gigging band yeah we actually uh the band funks shop loomis opened up for long beach double all stars um we played out bro yeah actually i have a demo we actually have a demo CD we have a demo CD we have a song called single man and uh tv dinner's always the same because i'm a single man one night stands are calling my name because i'm a single man so it was uh yeah we were we were kind of a jam band and funk ska band and i like that kind of chops i like gospel music like you know that's kind of what i

grew up with and um guys like dave wechel and ginger birch and uh you know so i was really actually thought i was going to become a professional professional drummer. That was like what I was really aspiring at the time to be. And I probably would have been had I stayed in the trajectory had 9-11 not happened. I mean, I was getting, I'd just gotten sponsored by Evans drumheads, J.D. Adario. So I was getting pretty like serious. And I probably wouldn't have stayed with that band forever. I would have moved up, you know, into various bands. And so. Selling out your band before you made it, bro. I know. Look at you. Yeah. Yeah.

I would have moved up from Loomis Funk. Yeah, funk music is kind of definitely gets people. Well, ska is like the fact that you were playing ska music. Yeah. Like real big fish type stuff. Yeah. It's a, well, it's a particular style of playing too. It's a lot of like odd time signatures, you know, like.

And so it's, it's, it's, and it's funk. gospel and all that kind of stuff has a similar foundations. You know, it's all based off of kind of like jazz, you know. So that's what I did, you know, and I played a lot of like Christian music, you know, is like Jesus rock. And let me tell you something, you get the youth group girls when you're like Jesus rock star. You totally do. You're playing like at the huge youth camps and stuff.

You know, you're like, I, you're driving the beats, you know. We love the Lord, but, you know, what's your name? Christian youth camp attendance just went down by 80% for young girls. By the way, don't go there. I'll never send my kids there. It's the worst, you know. Back of the van. So all that's kind of where you're at.

You're busting your ass working. You're playing music and making money, enough money to buy an Audi that you really can't afford to fix. But still, you got the Audi. Yeah. And then September 11th comes. Yeah, September 11th came. And I had never, like, you know, thought about joining the military, anything like that. Where were you on September 11 because you're in the city?

So I was in Queens, New York. Yeah. I was on a telephone pole when it happened. So I was on a railroad pole. At the time, my job was to send a, so Time Warner was being stood up, high-speed internet roadrunner. And we had to isolate those systems, what they called power supplies. And so power supplies had to be isolated.

So if there was a lightning strike, it would only go like 300 feet before the next pole and not below the whole system. So I had a job putting in these power supplies and then grounding everything to power, bell, cable, and all the way down into the ground. and then I would install these big supplies and then wire everything up. And I got paid for everything. I mean, if I put like a screw on, I could bill for it, whatever it was. So it was a good gig.

I mean, I made $7,800 a day after I paid my guys and all my expenses. So it was like, it was good money. And I was a hustler. And so, I mean, I could just, I would work when the sun was up. Like, you know, I was on my second cup of coffee and making money. So, yeah, the first plane hits the World Trade Center. I'm on telephone, Paul. I have no idea what's going on.

And I get a call on the next tell from a friend of mine that tells me that a plane just at the World Trade Center. And at first I really didn't believe them. And I come down off the pole and end up meeting a lady who's had her door open like right next to where the pole was basically. She lived right by the railroad tracks. And what a terrible place to live. Oh my God.

When people live by the railroad tracks, it's just like. Especially on the East Coast. Like when you drop when you take the train, the railroad tracks. Yeah, if you live by the railroad tracks, it's a bummer. That's, that's rough. Let's face it out here in California, you can live by the railroad tracks in Encinitas and have an ocean view that in a house that you paid $4.8 million for. It's not that way on the East Coast.

No, your house has made shingles. Yeah. They're like the house. You know how those houses are shingled? Yeah. It's like, yeah, these are working on the roof. Let's just keep going. And, yeah, so I was like, so I come down.

I see this lady. she's in there. She's watching the news. Husband was a port authority police officer and she was kind of crying and emotional. Then obviously the other plane hits and like at the time I thought like America was like under attack or we're being invaded. I don't know. I had all these like weird thoughts probably from watching like movies and red dawn happening now. Yeah. Jed. So yeah, so I I go back to the yards and I got my buddy with me. We got rid of the other dude. We gave him his hundred bucks. And and I was like, like I'm going into the city and my buddy's like to do what.

And I'm like, I don't know to like help out. And he's like, you don't know anything. I remember this conversation we're at because I did. I don't know what I was going to do. I was be a victim or something. How old are you? I was 21. Okay.

Yeah. So I'm 42 now. And so I was like, so I go into there, drop everything off, take the Audi. Get on the LIA 495 and I'm like hauling ass down there. There was no traffic. It was crazy. And I'm like maxing this car out. it's probably why I broke down.

And I get to the, I think it's the Lincoln Tunnel, and there's like already tactical teams and guys all standing there and tell you how tight security was. Like I had like a bunch of like cable TV and electrical IDs and like just, you know, I look like a State Department guy in Iraq. You know, I have like a million badges or whatever. And I tell them I'm like a demolition crew. And can you let me through?

And they're like, yep, bring it in. And so I just drove, right on through. And we went down there and parked. And that's when I, you know, towers that fall, listened to the radio. And that's when, uh, I realized like the severity of everything that was happening. Like, I could see the smoke and people were screaming and running everywhere. And I'd never seen anything like that in my life. And, um, so I ripped the sleeve off my shirt, put it on my face and my buddy and just walked into the smoke. Basically at this point, I had no idea where I was going. So I would stay there for 24 hours.

September 12th and that was a what were you doing at first like nothing I was just like trying to like see if anybody needed help but like I needed help myself because I was covered in the smoke and everybody was running the opposite way so I ended up getting in there and then they were putting together these like makeshift shirt it was total chaos like I don't think that people unless you were there like realize like there was really no organization it wasn't like there was half you know the fire department was dead there was smash vehicles, cop cars everywhere. So we kind of started like getting together with groups to like look for people.

Late in the afternoon, I ended up seeing like a guy's leg sticking out from underneath a police car. And a bunch of us got over there and lifted it up and he was dead. And I remember like all the gravel and everything was like shoved into his face. He must have hit underneath the car. I don't know to speculate. But whatever happened, the car lifted up and smushed him. And so people like pulled.

them out and they pulled like some blankets over them and fire department came in city bank tower fell that tower you know mystical tower seven i was like right there and uh you know for a couple hours i couldn't see my hand in front of my face it was one of the most terrifying experiences in my life until i became an sdb guy did you stay put did you just stay there i just stayed there with my shirt over my head but i couldn't breathe and then you know i go to the fire department they watch my eyes out and i stayed there all night i found like an arm and like intestines like and i crawled inside the World Trade Center. Like I was sliding down the metal beams into the belly of the World Trade Center.

And it was like the most insane noises I ever heard in my life, like creaking and, you know, just like smoke and steam. And it was just, it was so chaotic. I had no idea what I was doing, but I wanted to help. I had this memory of like, I had a bicycle tube tire on my hard hat with those little like disposable ever ready like red and green like with the white switch lights. that was my headlamp. I had them like tied on there to the rescue.

And even if I found somebody, I don't really know what I would have done because I had zero skills really. And so I, you know, I'm right by that iconic picture of where the exoskeleton of the World Trade Center is, where the guys are raising the flag, and it's all over the posters and stuff.

I'm like sitting off to the right. And so the next morning I was there, got some food to have like a smashed up, like little bagel cart that was there with my buddy. And I remember for the first time since like that dude hit me in the head with that bug nut I uh I was like crying really hard like I could feel the death I could feel the departure of life in that area like you could feel the immense loss and um I was sitting there with my buddy I'm like we're just crying and he just looks at me he's like man like what are we going to do the sun's coming

up it's the next morning and I just looked at him and I was like I'm gonna fucking kid whoever did this and he was like okay like you know you kind of patted me on the back like yeah okay and so um I ended up um decided in 2003 that I joined the military because what happened was I lost my contract like six maybe it wasn't six months maybe three months later I lost my contract so so through the end of 2001 you're you go back to work go back to work but then they're like you know all this economic ambiguity all the new build all this that they start cutting them like low guy in the totem pole you know subcontractor so i own like all these like uh uh like all this line equipment that i bought and you know i had a truck that was i bought that payments on i had my Audi like I had all this

shit and now I'm like you know basically I'm just trying to keep everything aflo I couldn't find any work everyone's freaking out I'm watching it glued to the TV you know 24 hour news cycle and so I ended up selling everything off picked up some like side work and and then moved out to big sky montana uh and i got a job as a ski tech out there because i was just like i was watching this warren miller movie and he said if you don't pack up everything that you have and move to big sky montana you only be one year older when you do and i was like so i got a job out there in a ski shop uh fixing skis and so i worked out there came back did you know anything about skiing

Yeah, I had, I mean, my idea of skiing, like, I hate them. Like, I basically just, like, stole the skis. Like, and I would, I had a pair of wire snippers, and that's how I learned how I learned how to ski. My parents did take me on, like, a youth group thing, one, but I spent most of the time trying to, like, make out with a crow. And, uh, and then get saved on the next Sunday. Get forgiveness.

But I, uh, no, I would, um, I would go up with a pair of, like, wire snippers and, you know, used to have the old things. And I would, like, snip them off and put them on. my jacket and that's how I would ski and I would ski all the time like that. I know it sounds terrible and I'm sorry if you're listening and I did that to you. It's for your forgiveness. But I mean, that's how I was, you know, I mean, I didn't really, I didn't have a lot of things. And so anyway, I went out there and I worked in the ski shop and I was just basically, it was a ski bomb and it was awesome. And I met my, I met my first and only ex-wife. So she was like,

like a work exchange program for Brazil. A little spotty on the English show. It worked well. And yeah, so I ended up, you know, working out there for basically about a year coming back and then getting on a line crew. And that's when I decided I was going to join the military. And then how did you figure out the Navy? Well, I tried to join the Army because I had seen like everything, Robert's Ridge and all that kind of stuff.

And I didn't know like a ton about the military. And I, you know, of course, the Army is trying to give me. go in the infantry and you work your way up and this is where it starts and I'm like I didn't so a Navy guy actually came out and like saw me and I kept going to the mall because the recruiting station was in the mall which meant you know go try to get the military if it didn't work out get an orange julia's meat a pretzel so that's kind of is orange Julia still around does that still a thing I think all their customers died one leg at a time yeah freaking diabetes all of them Diabetes, yeah, exactly.

So eventually a Navy recruiter sees you? He sees, well, he's like, he starts chatting it up with me. He's like coming back for lunch and one day. And he's like, oh, hey, I've like seen you coming here a bunch. Like, what are you doing? You're always like here. I'm like, well, they're like, I'm trying to get a, go in the Rangers. And he's like, oh, why you want to do that?

And I was like, oh, because, you know, they're the best in the world. He goes, no, they're not. And he's like, let me, you got a minute. Let me show you a video. And he brings me in there and shows me like the CJ crock is kind of video. So like it's like the dudes doing flutter kicks of the shorts and they're like in the desert. Like I mean, it was at the time the coolest thing I'd ever seen in my entire life. And I was just like enthralled.

And these dudes are like doing the triangle defense. And like they're, so I was like, man, he's like, yeah, the Navy SEALs. Like they're the best. And I was like, whoa, man, what do I got to do? He's like, man, you got to just sign up, take a little PT test. I was like, great. Like so I go through all the stuff. And it took me a little while to get longer to get in than I.

had wanted because I had a couple like little altercations in my life I had to get cleared up and yeah so I ended up started doing like a bunch of research and I was like I could barely swim I could swim but I wasn't like that kind of swimmer so I started I started training I bought the like a snavey seal workout book and I started boxing again because you grew up boxing I grew boxing. Yeah. How much did you box when you were a kid? On and off pretty much since I was like about 10.

I started in Catscoe New York. Same place Mike Tyson learned. Cats go village boxing. There you go. Yeah. And I actually continued. So you understood working out. Because if you never did that, you wouldn't really.

But working out back in the day was kind of like the toe touchers. You know, you're doing the side. It was not as like, you know, scientific as it is today. No, I remember getting ready to come in the Navy and thinking like, Dude, you know, I did whatever five sets of eight pull-ups like what a good workout because you just had no idea I mean, this is like 89. So there's no well at least there was no information available that I had. I mean, I wasn't going to go to the library. He couldn't just Google shit and figure it out. So and at least if you box like you knew even if you just knew like you got to push yourself like you obviously did you compete in boxing? Yeah, boxing. Then you knew like you you knew how to push yourself hard and

a workout at least. Absolutely. But that was like a different kind of like in the sense, basically the workouts I was doing was running push, push, I was, I would get up in the morning. I would get up before work. So I had a job. I started working for a roofing contractor. Once I was working for a line guy, that job kind of foiled out. And thank God, these guys were crazy. I was working up in Glens Falls. Anyway, Lauren Cruz got some crazy people in it. You know, they got a lot of problems. I find myself living in trailer in glens falls with this dude johnny because he didn't want to pay my hotel or whatever but anyway so i'm like doing that i ended up getting job for this roofing company so i'm roofing all day i'm working at a pizzerie at night and on the weekends i worked for this guy sanger this

ugandan guy who had a much of slums and i would go in there and basically patch everything up temporarily you know i wish flex tape was around because i was basically you know flex taping everything just to make it like you know pass the sniff test for the renters and uh so i was working three jobs and you know busting my ass making pizzas and matter of fact this is so when i went to buds i had a bicycle that i bought uh from a guy that came in the pizzeria uh it was a really cool um specialized stump jumper like for the day it was like it had like the shocks i mean it was like it was sick and i took that the buds with me i bought it for 60 bucks and at the pizzeria and i sold that bike to mike ever was my neighbor.

Yeah. Anyway, just a little factoid. But so if he still has that, you know, I don't know if it's been numbers hot. Oh, you mean Mikey Everett? Mikey Everett. The team guy? Yeah. Oh, wait, he was your neighbor?

Yeah, he was my neighbor when I lived in Buds. I lived in Imperial Beach. Okay. And I lived like two blocks over him. And how I met him was I was going through Buzz. Of course, I showed up with, you know, I got the tow head. And he was selling a Jeep. And I had seen the movie.

I wanted a Jeep as neighbor. Navy SEALs and I didn't end up getting one. I mean, once I went in, I like bought into it like big time. It became like a Navy SEAL historian. I bought every single, I've read everything, you know, from hunters and shooters, you know, men of devils with green. I read everything, the stories that, I mean, I was like obsessed. And that's how I am.

I'm like a total immersion guy. But Mikey was, when I lived in Coronado, when I was at Team 1, Mike was at Team 1, Mike was in my opportunity team 1. We lived in the upstairs apartment and he lived in this. downstairs apartment. So I have many, many, many, many, Mikey's stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's freaking awesome. I would go over, like, so I met him and he's like, I went over there and I was like, oh, like, how much for your Jeep? He's like, are you in Buds? And I was like, yeah. He's like, what the fuck out of here? He said something like that to me or something. I was like,

come back when you get a brown t-shirt or something. He said to me. I ended up like getting him known through Buzz. And he's like the nicest guy ever. He's the nicest guy. And his wife, you know, just a little gal. Just great people for sure. His dad was like a hell's angel and he was like on easy riders and stuff. Like I mean, super cool people. The best, right? The best.

Like you know, I used to get crazy with stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I was like, so I went over. I remember I sold my bike to him. I needed like the money. I forget, I forget it was why I was, I wish I never sold it. But I sold him that bike that I bought the pizzeria and for 60 bucks.

I think I sold him for 150. Damn, ripping off. Shout out to the business mind. Gotcha, Mike. So I'm like, so I'm training for Buzz. I'm like basically order the baits like 6-2-6s or whatever they were and the pants. And I just start working out and training my ass off. And I ended up meeting a guy named through my recruiter, a guy named Drew Bissett.

Do you know he is? I don't think so. An old team guy. He was a commander. I don't think I know. Yeah, and he started off in UDTs and went on, and they ran this like seal training course in Greenwich, Connecticut. So you would go down there and you're supposed to get this like letter of approval

or like recommendation. I never got shit from it, but it was a great experience because I met a bunch of guys that later on I would go on and serve with. And we would train like on the once a month together for like a whole weekend. And I'd never done anything like that. And so it was a really good. experience. I worked out tons and, you know, I'd work out in the morning, we're down in the evening. I show up to buds, you know, go through boot camp, which was like, I'll never forget

it because I remember the boot camp guy was like, I got busted taking the lunches for the sick people and eating them at night. And I was so hungry because I was like, go work out in the bathroom. I was so nervous about failing. And I got busted. And so they, you know, they had all these restrictions going on. Then they had that dive motivator program going on run by Jody McIntyre was running at the time. And so I would like go over there and I'd get these little passes. And then I started knowing all the scruffs waiting to go to buds. And so they would give me these passes. And then eventually I was just kind of filling them out and leaving like and wandering around boot camp, right? So I started calling my my now ex-wife. And I'd go in the

phone booth and I got busted by the chief like right before graduation so I never really got to see my family they restricted me before I left to go to buds or whatever I was eating M&Ms and I was like in the booth and I was like I saw my chief and I was like I just timed it wrong literally I was I was walking on with like chips on my chin I like walked out he's like looks at me and I was like I have a pass and he's and he's and he's give me your pass I look at it he's like who signed this I was like uh uh petty officer Johnson like oh shit shit like I got that was my first taste of like the military has you by the balls and yeah so I show up class up with class 254 matter of fact I graduated Brian Bouchoir oh right oh yeah Brian was it was a

body mine and yeah so I classed up with them and yeah cruise through I think we graduated 13 original guys at that class graduate like guys like Brian Bates and yeah I remember I didn't Shout to Ryan Bates. I didn't like him at first because everyone's like, hey Ryan's like, he does like, wrestles at the lion's den.

I'm like, what the fuck is the lions den? You know, and everyone's like, he's like in the best shape ever. Like everyone was there. I was like, freaking beat his ass.

Like, I just was like not having it. We ended up becoming super good buds, you know? He's awesome. Yeah. I tell a story a lot, but I don't say his name,

Brian, but it's like one of those moments where I was, they were going through training and through workup training and I was running the training and there's like total chaos going on in the mount town and there's just like everyone's getting shot up with paintball or whatever and no one's making any decisions and I could already I a guy like him he stood out because he's just like was freaking stud and was squared away and I don't think I had trained with because eventually

we trained together jiu jitoo and whatnot so I think I kind of knew that or whatever but that wasn't he was good as an operator. You know beyond Jiu-Jitsu he was good as an operator and I knew it and you could all you could tell like in a platoon there'd be like two guys that were good or three guys that were good or it might be the OIC it might be the platoon chief it might be the LPL or it might be some for freaking random E5 So I've been watching him and there's some total mayhem and chaos going on and he's like crouched down behind a wall and I walk over to him like hey bro What's going on? He's like just just get crazy and I said what do you think you should do right now? And he's like we should we should we should freaking strong point that building and I go why? I go why? don't you make it happen. And he, it was beautiful.

The look on his face was like, oh, I can do that. And he just is like, hey, we're strong point in that building over there. And here's like, you know,

I don't even know he's a new guy or maybe he was a one cruise wonder or whatever. He started making calls and people just listened and they did what they're supposed to do. And yeah, I love that guy. Yeah. I know.

I, you know, I have, so Van Wilson, he was a team guy that got killed in a car crash day after he graduated by, Uh, academy grad officer who's NCAA wrestling champ monster. I know, we're all heart broke.

We all got like tattoos the night before or whatever together. And, you know, we're all all super tight. And yeah, that was, uh, that, that, you know, being in buds and that, like, that changed my life, you know, that whole, that whole experience. You know, I was like, finally like a part of something, you know. Did you have trouble with anything? You said you weren't that great of a swim or did you figure it out? No, I ate everything except for the last one.

buds. As a matter of fact, I would have been the first time, every time had I not dragged another friend of mine who's getting ready to get out because he was done after that. If he didn't pass that, it was over for him. And he was like sandbagging like crazy to drag him. But that's pretty good that you were able to not really be like a water guy and pass everything. Yeah, I mean, later on I would become, you know, I started competing, you know, a free dive spear

fishing, you know, around the world. So, I mean, that water experience and then being an SDV guy, which was like, if they, they should just have the SDV at buds, like day one. Everyone to get into this. We're going to sink it under the water into the dark. You would, you would weed out like 75% of the people. A lot of people. It's terrifying. And so I got out, went, you know, went to 18 Delta, went to the Sockhammedic course, and then got sent to SDVT1.

How tall are you? Six-four. Do they think about that at all? I mean, that doesn't make sense, bro. No. So if you don't, SDV is like a mini-sub, and it's what's called a wet submersible, which means when you're in it, it's filled with water.

So it's not like you're in a little submarine, like James Bond all listening to iTunes with the freaking heater on. It's like this tiny, they're not big, they're small, and they fill up with water. Ocean water. Not like warm water. Ocean water is around you.

You can't move in it. There's a guy in front of you. And so like the dive profiles get so, you know, I went to SDV school. I crashed the SDV like before I graduated, which was great because I ended up becoming a backseat guy and I got to do the real world niche. But I was like, I'll ever forget I had an officer next to me. I can't remember his name. He was a total dick.

And he was like so bossy. He's a new officer. He knows he wants to lead me. And, and I'm. But we drive. They nav. So I got the stick. I'm like, you know, controlling the ballast.

I'm like, you know. And I was like, hey, sir, I think there's like, there's something in front of us. He's like, just stay on this course. And I'm like, I don't know. He's like, it's just artifact. I'm like, I think that's a thing. And I was like, so I was like, okay, fine. So I like crank it up.

And I'm like, accelerate. And I'm like, accelerate. And I hit it. And it was like out in the middle of OSHA was like one of those like rock little jetties with the little lighthouse on it. And all of a sudden it was like. You know, we come rocketing out. And all of a sudden it was like all the water drains out.

It's like, shh. I'm like, hmm. So I like open up the door and I like look down. There's like land. I look at him. He's like, oh shit. Like we're there. And so that was the end of my driving career.

And he was, he was pissed because I did. I said, okay, fine. And I just accelerated right into it. So graduated at STV school. Go out to the team. And, you know, that's when I started learning like how sophisticated that really is. and how, you know, it's super complicated. You're diving mixed gas, rebreathers, an open circuit,

all in these various profiles throughout a very long dives under pressure. Like 12 hours? Eight hours, like, yeah, and you'll switch on and off. So you'll be like, you know, you can't be on a rebreater, you know, because you get oxygen toxicity area. You can't be on all heliocs or nitrox or you can't be on all open circuit because of nitrogen narcosis. So you're like, and then you have these like computers with all these like lights that blink and like these huge like screens.

And I could never remember like I knew that double red was not good. Even I know that. It was like double red. And I'd be like, uh, manually enter the air like, and I'm like, oh, double green. I think it's okay, solid. I'm good. And so there's a guy right in front of you and you can't move. So he sits in between your legs, all your gear and all your equipment gets shoved in the back.

and then everything is pitch black. So when we're training for the national tasking, like everything's by memory. Every single thing has a knot. Every single light has a signal, you know, because you're not using the OTS system, you know, because it can be heard. So everything is by feel.

So everything begins like, you know, first you're in these huge tanks and then you're graduating up until you're in the ocean. So everything is in the pitch black. So like when things get out of sync, it gets very confusing. And then you have to FSA at the end. You have to take your rigs, click it to the outside,

and then the sub will surface, and then you blow out, close your rebreather, and kick away. And then the sub leaves, and then you're on the surface. And then you swim shore. And then you have underwater pingers that find you, like, all that kind of stuff. So it was like at first, like not what I had like signed up to do. Like meanwhile, I'm like watching the news. You know, it's like, let's go.

And I'm like underwater like, like hand signal so um i wouldn't change it for anything in the world because of the team i got to be a part of what we got to do um and the knowledge that i gained of that mobility platform uh it was something that i think like within the teams is so like niche and most people think you know because the stev guys always get like bad rap you know like oh freaking like s tv guys like um but i got out of that and then i got to augment damn neck So seven days later after that deployment. So yeah, it's the the attitude of like, oh, SDV guys, like I, I don't know, at some point, and I was pretty young when I was like, yeah, you know what, that those guys freaking get my respect.

And because it's a, I don't know, I mean, I talked to some of my friends, one of my friends particular was like who came from SDV and was at whatever team we were at. and I remember he's a good dude a solid dude and a like team a reliable team guy that you would want to go with you on op and one time we were talking he was like hey man we were doing like some exercise off of Korea and you know it's wintertime and he was like he's telling me the story and he's all like he's all like in the like this starts filling up with water and he's like I don't want to do this anymore yeah he's like I don't want to do this I don't know this is not whatever This is not what I want to do. I don't want to do this anymore.

Like literally having DOR thoughts like he wants to quit after he's been in teams for 10 years. People bold. We've had team guys. I won't call him out, but there was team guys that would freak panic. I mean, you can get, we had a chief in my second platoon who drowned and died. I mean, got tangled up in the lines and I bought them up, you know, because they would bottom up underneath stuff. And it was, it's sketchy. There's lines everywhere.

There's stuff going. everything's by merit you have all this gear all this equipment all this stuff like it is you have to maintain like a totally cool mind um and then when you get into like dry dock sheltering and in the real world and all those kind of things like things can go sideways quick there's no there's no mistakes matter of fact i remember we were training for that for that mission how was that 80 feet on a rebreat of my buddy um my best friend actually like we're down to the bottom i remember like i had like a leak in my mask and I was like looking I was like pointing you know doing the signal like there's a problem he's like typical he's like you're good and I remember I was like and the whole piece goes

and I was like like like and he looked at me he's like there is no buddy breathing you're in like a full face mask he's like and I just remember he's just gonna watch you die he just he just looks at me like you're dead like and I remember I just was like it's just blown go hey it blown and go from 80 feet yeah it was water He's like, I'll never forget your face. It was hilarious. I was like, it was hilarious because I could never make that piece again unless I'm about to die.

We did, we used to do more sub-ops than the regular teams. Yeah. And so, you know, like I did a few trips of doing lockouts and stuff. And even that, you know, you're in this little freaking chamber and it's filling up with water and it's freezing cold. And you got it. What do we have? We'd have like weapons bags and engine bags and all this stuff in there.

And it's all claustrophobic. And I'm very comfortable. in the water yeah but like guys did not like even that and that's one you know one hundredth of what it's actually like because when we do that we'd be like cool hey we're gonna do we're gonna do sub-ops for a week or whatever two weeks yeah you guys just like oh what are we doing for the rest of our lives sub-ops it's like god like you could kind of gut through something right you know you're learning and just got through something if that's just your life and you know we we just did a 12-hour

dive today. Cool. What are we doing tomorrow? A 12-hour dive. Oh, man. It never. It's like... You had to... I mean, you got to learn to relax. Like, you can't freak out in those situations at all. No. No, like,

you know, we used to always say, like, those who panic first die. If you panic, you'll die. I mean, what happened to, you know, that chief, that died was, he got tangled up in some lines and, you know, then his mascot got pulled off and there was no getting out like there's no you're it's pitch black you know

and the worst is you know the bioluminescence like all that kind of you're like completely blinded you know and then working all the way up to a national tasking with those guys and doing all that stuff matter of fact uh we had we were like getting to the point we didn't know where we were going we didn't know any of that information uh still you know still classified to this day probably always will be and you're just getting sick of the same people you know you're just getting sick of the same people you know you're same prob, same personalities, the same dirty coffee cuff, the same dude, you know, it's the same, and we were traveling all around the country in different environments, like, you know, preparing for anything. And I remember finally our chief at the time was like, he called a smokers.

And he got in big trouble because he's like, okay, this is it. We got to settle all these beefs before we leave and deploy. You were like, oh, I'm in. Well, at first, I didn't really have problems with anybody. I was got him just like, whatever. And, Um, so you were a new guy when this was going on? Yeah. Is this your first first? Oh, man. That's freaking savage, man.

New guy. And so, um, I was like, you know, I'm supermodo guy. Like, I was just like so, you know, fired up and. Did you know what you were getting into into when you got assigned SDVs? No. Well, I had read the old books about the dudes like in the tortito, like getting covered in grease and like squirting out of like a sewage pipe or whatever old school. You know, but that's, that's really all I knew about.

I had no idea. And, yeah, so, like, he calls us smokers and we're getting ready to leave. And he's like, hey, we're going to put the board up here, officers, unless it doesn't matter. But he write your name on the board one five minute round. By the way, yeah, that's just what if you don't know, Echo, you know what Smokers is? Yes, sir. Okay. Smokers is, hey, we're going to, it's usually boxing.

It's like we're just going to spot boxing. Yeah. And they do it on ships, too. They do it. Well, at least they used to. You used to have smokers on ships and smokers on Navy bases. We're just going to go and box other people. Yeah.

That's what like the military was like tough back in the day. But it was a great, let me tell you something. It leveled the scores between a lot of people. And I didn't, so everybody like got up and you had to write your name on the board with the guy that you wanted to fight. And of course, like some guys jumped up right away and like wrote the guy's name down. And I just kind of sat back. I'm like, and then this dude gets up and he's one of the divers. And he writes my name on the board.

I was like, I didn't know he had like a problem. So I was like, so we go. And he didn't know you freaking box. since you were 10 years old. Well, I've wore all my shit. So we like, so everybody starts coming to me and they're like, hey, like help me out. They're all nervous now. And so I'm working with some guys.

A week goes by. It's like a Friday night or something. We show up there. And I wore like my old boxing trunks. I got like, you know, custom gloves. I got all my stuff. No head gear. I didn't want anything.

My gold teeth like mouthpiece in. I put it out. I'm like, and so when I was in the medic course, I actually was sparring partner for Ray Mercer. Damn. Yeah. That kind of ended my hopes of, like, thinking that I was going to be, like, great someday. I don't know.

You know, men are, like, we just kind of think, like. But I ended up, I was so, like, to backtrack a little bit, I started boxing again while I was going through the medic course in Fort Bragg for a year. And I end up fighting in the North Carolina State Prison. So boxing the guys like Bernard Hopkins, and then they come up out of the prison programs. And so I went in there, went through all the security stuff, whatever. and I fight like a, you know, various rounds, kind of like a tournament style. And I ended up winning to like the top guy, well, it was a draw, the top guy.

And he was like the scariest dude. I'm telling you, he was like the biggest, scariest dude. He was doing like 17 to life. And Ray Mercer was there. And so his coach saw me boxing or whatever and was like, hey, Ray's like getting back in the game, which he did. And he ended up fighting like Tim Sylvia. Oh, that's right. And crushed his face in.

Yeah. Ray Mercer, people don't remember, like, that guy was an animal. Beast. He also, unfortunately, lost a Kimbo Slic. Ray Mercer did? Yep. In M.MA. Yep.

But the funny thing is they didn't box. Like, somehow, I think, if I remember right, Kimbo Slic got him in a guillotine. And Ray, and Ray was like, I don't know what this is, but I thought we were going to fight. You know what I mean? It's like, I thought we were going to fight. Yeah, so, like, I started, I was. So did you do, like, a camp with him? So I started boxing with him on the weekends, like sparm partner, getting him in shape.

And so, you know, I grew up watching Ray Mercer. You know, he devastated Tommy Morrison. He lost the Lennox Lewis. He was a brutal dude. He had never been knocked down. He had a head like a, you know, like a giant block of cheese. And he was merciless. I mean, if you watch that knockout against Ty Morrison, who was like my hero at the time, you know, before he got AIDS.

But like, I mean, when he beat him down, I remember he said, He said, he's like, you know, you can kill somebody in boxing. That's like all he said. It was like very like, not like, is he okay or anything? And when he lost to Lennox Lewis, which was controversial, actually, I kind of ended his career. He had some more fights like along the way. But when he hit Tim Sylvia, he caved his whole head in.

I mean, if you watch that clip on YouTube, I mean, it's brutal. So I'm in there boxing with him. I have a couple great shots of me and him boxing together. And he hit me so hard one time. That for the first time, I like, I had to like kneel down the ground. I wasn't really sure. Like, I'm on, like, roller skates. Like, I, I remember I was, like, hurt for, like, a week.

And I started thinking in my head, like, man, if this is how, like, people are hitting, like, at this level, I don't, I think I'll die. Because I don't have a huge neck. I don't know. I just got, like, more of, like, a noodle neck. Like, no matter how hard I wear it. I need the iron neck or whatever, but, yeah.

So I box with him. And then I just keep, I just stayed in shape, you know, or whatever. Once I left there, I had three amateur fights, and then box was afraid, then whatever, went in the teams. And so we show up at the smokers. And so I got all my trunks. I got all my stuff.

I got my shoes on, my little tassels and everything. And I got the whole thing in there. And he's looking at me over there with his like, you know, I don't know, off brand boxing gloves or whatever. And he just comes over. He's like, hey, man, I just, I don't know why I signed up for that. I don't really have a problem with you. or anything like that.

I mean, it's just, are we good? I'm like, you're dead. And we got in there and I let him like punch me around for like 30 seconds. I hit him one time knocked him out. Cold. And so the shout-out to my chief because like he got in big trouble because some guys got hurt and they couldn't die because they're, because, you know, their noses. And it was like dudes, dudes got beat up.

So yeah, so it was a good experience. You know, I really, really fortunate that I went there. You know, it was a unique experience. And then I then seven days later well while underway I got told I was getting can augment to TF 373. So and where did you go for that? Well, I went damn neck did like a train up with them and then went to Afghanistan to an outstation. And how was that deployment? That one was rough. That one we lost Josh Harris. So I was with him when he died. that's right next to him and then Jason Freewald and John Markham so that was a that was a tough one and so you know that was my first experience in real war you know I mean what I had just come off though

like the implications were so high like the intensity that if anything went wrong like literally no one's coming to get you like you know it's not going to be good so but it was completely different, you know, than being shot at in the desert. So, you know, it was a, that was a really good experience. And then it kind of just, like, you know, up to my aspirations. I got to work with some incredible people and do a lot of really cool missions and kind of do the stuff that I had been hoping to do from when I was sitting there at 9-11 and I had, you know, an envision of what I was going to do, you know. Were you guys doing, like pretty much just DAs? Yeah. Was that, what's what you were doing?

Do a DAs, a lot of like SRs and stuff like that, a lot of overwatches for the Army, you know, in various areas. We had a lot of remote outstations, and then we were with the people that I later went on to work for. We were kind of the military component for them. And so the op tempo was high. Op tempo was high. It was 2008, so.

And you're just living the dream? Living the dream. Like, I mean, riding dirt bikes. Like, I'm just like living the dream. And then when Josh died, You know, that was my first experience with losing somebody. And then it just was, like, really real to me. You know, it just, everything changed after that for me.

And that mission was, you know, he drowned. So that was the way that whole thing went down, that was tough. That was a tough one. And then the guys that were with us, you know, Jason got killed on entry. He got shot in the stomach. And then John Markham got shot in the stomach. and then John Markham got shot in the neck on that. So that was a huge loss in 2008, you know, for the teams.

So when you say, when you say like things changed or you changed or it changed, what was like the change? Was it, hey, all of a sudden, oh, we're not immortal? What was the change that you were doing? Yeah, I think that was it. Like, I think I had this, like, I had this like immortality idea in my head where I could outsmart, outrun. out shoot outdo anything and then uh the realism when someone's wrapped in a flag on a helicopter

you know as a young guy i was just like the implications were so high i have a great picture at my house um i don't have a lot of military stuff at my house i have some stuff in my office but because i don't want to influence my son you know i try to you know i don't want him to feel that you know and uh um it's a picture that was taken by an oGA guy of me that he sent to me later on and I was standing out looking over the corn gall and I couldn't believe like where I'd come from and that I'm like standing here with these people like these men you know like who are we're giants to me you know because like I said I became like a history I read every book everything every there's probably not a book on the teams that I didn't read and this was before like a lot of books

were coming out they're like old school books and I really believe like in the brotherhood like in the old school like do everything together kind of mentality uh matter of fact curbie harrell he's like an old school team guy uh and he was like i never forget we were like sitting drinking a beer one day when i was a new guy and he's like he's like you and this other guy is like you guys like you guys are like the spirit of like the old teams like the old teams like just and i mean i was i like lived it i loved it and uh um so you know going to an actual war though it's very humbling you know and it kind of puts you like in a place where you realize like this is like super dangerous because to be honest with you i didn't really think that way

at the time you know real quick kirby harrell story because it's just awesome he's he was on the podcast and he's talking oh really he's talking about the phoenix program and he's like yeah he goes so he we'd go up and I was talking to him because you know I have a little bit of perspective of like what doing missions are like so I was like so so how would you know what like hut you're going into in a village and he's like oh well I would I would a source tell you like hey it's three huts down on the right and he's like yep that's what happened I go oh that's cool and so there's one op they're in a in a little sampan him and one other guy and they go into this village and he and so he's telling the story and he goes yeah you know so I went in there and went into the third hut on the right or whatever it was knock the guy out I come out throw him in the boat and so I'm thinking I'm like that's cool and I go I go uh how did you knock him out he goes and he goes without missing a beat I go I go how'd you knock him out he goes ball peen hammer so like do you see him on his web gear he's got a ball peen hammer his freaking web gear just whack a dude at the head and that's

that's that's so bad ass. Back when the men were iron and the ships were wooden. Yeah. How long was that deployment to Afghanistan that you did? I think we were, so four months. Yeah, months like working up, getting ready. Were you still actually technically attached to SDV and you were there TAD? Yep, yep.

That was their TAD. So when you got done with that deployment, what happened? I went into, well, I went into another platoon. Like, basically I got home. My girlfriend, now wife. we've been together for 15 years now. I'm married for 10. And she picked me up at the airport,

and I showed up to drop all my gear off. I got my car. This is coming home from deployment. Coming home from deployment. I get picked up. No fanfare, obviously, at the command. Like, I'm going to just get all your stuff. And hung out with some of the guys for a couple of days

and then headed out. And I get back to the command. And so I was with Slab. So after Josh died, I got went to another base, got to kind of know him, and which obviously was an icon, you know, looking up to him or whatever, just like a really great leader, like real, real quiet, real steady,

like, you know, got to meet him, and I was like, I want to go screen and go to the command or whatever. And so some guys, like, reached out about me, you know, putting my package in and all that kind of stuff. And so it's like a Saturday or something. I get to the, I get my car, get all my stuff, tell my girlfriend that I'm going to meet her and drop everything off,

and the Master Chiefs there. and so he sees me in the locker room he's like come on this is the SDV master chief check yeah I didn't like and so I I'm down there like getting all my stuff just home from deployment like and to be honest with you like looking back like that whole like there was a lot that happened like that was like a lot because I just did back to back so I mean I was like hadn't been there in like a long time and all this stuff had gone down and here I am like checking in thinking I'm going to like get some time off or whatever and he goes up in the office and he's like okay I want to talk to you I'm on upstairs and he goes so uh you know you just got back I'm like yeah I just got back like right now you know

and he's like so you think you're gonna like go over there and like screen is that what you think I was like I'm like what like apparently some people had sent some emails and said hey we want him to come over blah blah whatever and and I was like yeah he's like well you know, they're not in charge of manning. I am, he says to me. And I was like, thinking about my headspace at the time, you know, I was like not in a good headspace. And I was like, I said something of inflammatory, I think.

And he went like crazy. He started like screaming at me. He came over the desk, like got my face, you know, and he's like, you'll go where I tell you to go and da, da, da. And I was like, then I'll fucking get out, you know, like, I mean, I've had. had that kind of attitude. And so we get in this huge thing. I get a text message from the chief.

He tells me, hey, gear ready on Sunday, 96 hour SR. I'm like, okay. So I like unpack my gear, call my girlfriend Diller. I'm like packing out. So I roll right into another platoon two days later. And I was pretty bitter about that. Nobody asked me how I was doing. Nobody was like, hey, like, what's going on?

Like, are, you know, how was your trip? Like next thing I know I'm like literally like dudes with orange vests walking around looking for me with like rubber shape I'm like laying in the bushes like I was so mad I can't describe how mad I was The only thing I could do is think about how mad I was and how it would be impossible for me getting mad or like Like I would explode So I go through you know I go through that I hurt my hand and end up rolling out of that baltoon right before the tasking. I got a pretty severe arterial injury in my hand. And so then I go to, like he said, go to trade at, I'm 86 and go to trade at. Is this like SDV trade at? Or did you go to,

oh, it was like standoff weapons that we had. It was like, no, it was like SDV traded troops. I forget what's called. So you're still at SDV. Yeah. But you're in the training. I'm in the training department. So I'm like going to Seattle a lot and, you know, working over in those regions or whatever. and then I got out because and then I tried to screen for well I went into the reserves immediately and then tried to screen for CAG and the reserve unit wouldn't let me go so then I tried to go from the reserve unit and I remember the match chief at the time and he wanted me to go sell res for two years and served my time at the reserves before I can go over there because this isn't going to be a stepping stone everything I was trying to do is try to get the opportunity to go over there so then I ended up

I won't say his name because he ended up getting in a lot of trouble, but I ended up getting picked up and doing a job in Iraq for during the, I think it was the status of forces agreement that was going on at the time, doing like PSD stuff. So now you're a contractor. So now I'm a contract. Still in the reserves. Still in the reserves.

But you're a contractor. Yeah. And I was like picking up schools and stuff and going to schools or whatever and trying to like figure out how I could like weasel my way like back into active duty. That's all I wanted to do. And I was just really got out of pure spite. I was just so angry. And I look back at my state and I was like, man, like, luckily I'm like a fairly,

I mean, that sounds like it, but I'm like a steady-headed person because I was like really like a roller coaster of emotions. Like I had just experienced all this stuff in a nutshell. And next thing you know, I'm like felt like I was being shitted on, you know. So I'm in Iraq and I'm like standing at the green bean and I see a guy who knows me and he's like starts talking. He's like, oh, hey, what are you doing? I was like, I told him what I was doing. He's like, give me your email. I got another job for you. And so I ended up going over to, you know, contracting for the CIA. Yeah. And I did like almost four years over there.

And did you go, what did that, you know, from what you can say, that's cool to say? Was that, did you get some immediate training? Were they like, hey, you're good on your training? What did you have to do? I was the only team guy that made it out of the training. Me and three other guys. First of all, I didn't really, like, I had an idea, but he wouldn't tell me anything. And how it went down was like, I got a random email being like, you know, you've been like recommended for training.

Can you be here on, you know, whatever the date was? And I was in Iraq. So I remember I went to this guy. It was like a total tool bag. He was like some like army guy or something. And I was like, oh, hey, I got to like get out of here. I got like family health problem. And he's like, you can't leave here.

I was like, I'll walk right out of this gate. And I'll get on the airplane. I'm like, you don't own me. I'll do whatever I want. So finally, like, they made me fly calm air. So I'm like, I do whatever I want, thank you. Yeah, because I was like, I'm taking this job. Like, I want this job.

And so I couldn't have got out of it and made it to training. So I end up flying calm air out. And I'm like, rethinking everything I was about like the Baghdad airport. Like there's no Orange Julius is there. and and I'm like, one of these guys is not like the others. So I fly back and two days later, I'm in training. And at an undisclosed facility and it's like go time. Like can you perform?

Like show up here on the line. Nobody's talking. Nobody's saying anything. Like nobody's like, I mean, it's like vetting. And it's like, I know, it's like four or five weeks all over in various. locations and I show up. It was really funny because I'm checking into the hotel in one of the states and of course I'm in the lobby and I look around it's like typical contractors like, you know, huge like American flag had some beards like everyone's like low pro.

Clearly like clearly we're all here together, you know. Everyone's calling everyone brother like and like even the guy at the front desk is a brother. And and so we just, we just, we just, we check into the uh we check we check in and i my roommate is a team guy buddy of mine and so uh as we're like in like he's like a good buddy of mine and i didn't even know he was there so we're there and um he didn't make it but the so i get a text message from overseas like watch the news tonight okay bin laden goes down and i'm in the hotel like no way you know and of course you know And then you got all the seal experts on there describing exactly how they did it. Like, right?

It was like, it was like the, it was like the Captain Phillips thing. You know, they had that dude with like, I forget who it was. Like branded web or something. It was like a watermelon like swinging slowly. And he's like shooting it with a 50 cow like showing how like difficult it would have been to hit the watermelon. But so I'm like glued to the news. Show up the next morning. We got like selection starts.

And, you know, PT tests, all those kind of things. and the qualls were super hard. Shooting qualls? Yeah, they were very difficult. Like, that's what got most people was the quals. And then the CQB, I mean, it's, and then they never, like, there's no coaching. There's no, like, if you don't pass these tests at this time, you're just, you just go away. Like, a van just pulls up and you just leave.

There's no, like, hey, bro, you think you can you do better next time? Like, I mean, I've, I mean, we're, I was there with cat guys, team guys, like everybody. and so I get to the end, there's only four of us left. And now I'm kind of figuring, and I'm in a total state of paranoia too, because every movie I ever watched about the CIA is like playing in my head. You know, I like turned the sink on.

I'm waiting for like a cable to come out. Like look at me or whatever. You know, like everybody is like, everybody's on it, which is kind of funny because when I went through the surveillance course, and I actually got busted by like a big fat lady in a KFC. She like busted me. So I was like, you know, there is those kind of people.

So they don't discriminate by that. I was doing like some counter and surveillance thing. And I was, I was in San Diego. And I was all dressed up like a bum. And, uh, and I'm like sitting there and I'm all freaking dirty and shitty. And, and I got busted. And I got busted because I had my watch on. And like this, you know, so it's like whoever we were surveilling, whatever it was,

surveilling the surveilers or whatever. Yeah. And like we got back to the debrief and they're like, hey, you know, Jocko, freaking nice watch. They're like, you got rolled up because of that, you know, everyone, everyone was like looking at you look like a bum with this freaking Iron Man watch on. This is the healthiest bum ever. Yeah, this was before everyone had like the big tactical watches that everybody has now. Yeah.

But back in the day, I guess this was sort of like a big tactical watch Berk in the day. Yeah. So. Yeah, the old school. That's funny. So only a few of you get through this thing. Yeah. And so some of the guys got the opportunity to try it.

You know, they were good dudes and they had them try again. But the qualls were like, I mean. Were you always a good shooter? Yeah, I was always a good shooter. I don't, not that I grew up like, you know, deer hunting. But like, like, I always laugh because now I'm like big archery hunter and stuff. And actually a hunter. But when I grew up like hunting was like, you know, shooting out of the back of the truck.

like a deer like at a cornfield and like you know like that that was hunting like you know like our hunting gear was like you know like a onesy snowsuit like like yeah you bought a walmart yeah exactly and a six pack it was like bubba hunting um but uh you must have good hand eye coordination for maybe from boxing and everything to just go in there knock the shit out of a course like that that's legit yeah and the pistol i mean the pistol shooting was like they had this one called the rundown uh so it was you lined up on the 100 All right. And then you would sprint to the 200 drop down two shots prone.

Damn. And then you'd spread to the. No, no, no, this is rifle. Oh, I thought you were talking pistol.

I was like, damn. No. No. No. No. 200 yards. Double.

9. So, um, no, but this was a tough one. So it's full kit on. And then you'd start, you had to have six max and with two rounds in each mac.

You'd start at the 100, spread to the 200, drop down two shots prone. Then sprint to the 100, two shots. kneeling, then sprint to the 50, two shots, then to the 25, two head shots, then to the seven two head shots, mag change in between everyone, you had two minutes, and minimum score 24 on a Ipsic.

That got a lot of guys. And then six seconds, four shots from the concealed 25 yards on the pistol. So that was, and you can't miss. Yeah, that's going to, and then there's like, you know, by time you get through all that, then you got like CQB. So I'm like, and this is the interesting thing about this is no workup. It's not like you went through no, you came off some shooting school or you like, okay, hey, let's get you guys all dialed in. Here's your test.

It's just like, hey, welcome. Here's your test. Yes. And you're basically testing the whole time because it's like a vetting. And it was really funny because we show up and we're at like the, the Dwayne Deeder thing. So I thought I was done with that because I went through that in SQT. You know, you hit me in the head with a thing. It hurts and I know this is deadly.

Like, but you know how they got to do the most level one. Everyone's a level three. It depends who you, you know, if you got somebody, a meat head, they're going to hit you with it. So I'm thinking I'm done with that. I show up there and I'm like, oh, no, like karate chops to the head. Like, so we go through all that stuff. We get done. There's another series of qualls at the end.

You finish that off and then you get offered a job and get ready to start deploying. And then every two years you have to redo it. And if you fail, you're done. So there's like this looming pressure of like I have to redo all these things. And then it gets more like I went through that and then it gets more like training. There's like you still have to qual but there's more training involved. But the initial one was just the vetting out. And that was tough.

That was some of the toughest training that I ever went through. So now you get to that job and you're starting to conduct operations. Obviously there's only so much we can say about the operations. Yeah. You know, where you're conducting them and kind of what you're doing. But broadly speaking, what was your, what was your tasking? Yeah. So a tasking was to, you know, protect, you know, CIA personnel, like, you know, around the world.

You know, they conduct their missions. So it's intense and you work all the time. There is no moratorium. There is no standing down. There is no, you know, you're employed. And it's one zies and twosies. And then there's also like the high-vis military. side where you're doing the paramilitary stuff depending on what bases you're at so

I was a team leader at a couple bases where it's like full on I mean it's full on military like you're you know you got a whole you got a whole team of guys underneath you and uh yeah it's uh looking at it from that side and looking at it from the military side is just so different like it's unbelievable um and so yeah it was uh the team of guys that you're talking about are not Americans? Yeah, not Americans. Yeah. And, and, you know, people can say what they want about those guys, and I wouldn't say I trusted all of them, but you really develop a relationship. You know, you rely on these guys and, you know, watching Afghanistan fall, and it was hard. You know, it was hard. As a matter of fact, I met some of the guys recently that got out of the country last month.

They reached out to me, and they're here somewhere living in the refugee camp, basically. And they were telling me about what happened to a bunch of our guys. I mean, held against the walls shish kababab spears stuff through their hearts you know i mean like brutally killed um so it was uh it was tough i had a good relationship with those guys so some of them are here in the states actually funny enough like one of them like i don't know they don't we don't use our names but one of the guys somehow like found me and like reached out to like my secretary like i was like my name is like so-and-so-mohad like you know i'm looking for mic and they said it to me i'm like take everything off the internet like yeah that's bizarre it is bizarre and he you know it was uh

i sat down for a matter of fact what happened was i was i won't say where i was but i was in a state for work a month ago my plane gets canceled um so i'm like kind of wandering around like oh my god i got like forget another hotel and do all this stuff i walk into the parking garage and hear somebody calling me by my call sign of course like my spiky sense is like just perk up I don't there's not a lot of people that know that and I like turn and look and it's two of my guys like where I was the team leader of that place for three deployments and and he's like you know I'm like like what's happening right now so I ended up like going back to their house with them and having dinner at this which is like it's a wicked refugee camp i just ran into him at the airport

all right so i sit down and when we go off i'll show you some pictures of me with him but uh yeah they started telling me like what happened to all these guys i mean dude it's like man that guy is all he's ever done says he was 20 years old was work for the americans i mean his family's been killed houses burned down people have been beheaded um i mean they've been tortured i mean it's it's it's rough Yeah. The amount of people that worked with American, Afghanistan, is like a massive number.

It's a massive number to think like, oh, well, there's only a small amount of people that are going to bear the burden. It's like there's a massive number of people that work with Americans. Well, if you look at, you know, kind of in my work with my foundation, if you look at the number of people

that have served in the war Americans, right? 2.7 million Americans served in the global war on terrorism, 20 years, right? So 7,000 died in the war over 20 years. 1,500 are amputated. So that's 0.00026%. 0.0056% are those who have died, right? And then you look at the fallout, though, from the war.

So we look at those hard numbers, right? But we don't look at the cost of it. And you look at only 4.5% of them are, you know, American veterans attempting start businesses or be entrepreneurs. You know, there's 50,000 nonprofits in North America, two and six veterans on, you know, psychiatric medications. And between 2005 and the end of 2020, 155,000 guys have killed themselves. So people say, well, you know, some of those guys were other vets or whatever, you know,

that didn't serve in there. There were Vietnam vets. It doesn't matter. Like, that's a huge number. That's every 64 minutes. And so we look at those numbers in the fallout. on American culture. And then you've got to look at the fallout on the host nation culture.

And that will be felt for generations. Like, and then what we did, like, I don't mean we, but like what our nation did, like we're no longer like a force of righteousness and of good. Like, we are, we are colonialists that have destroyed the foundation and fabric. matter of fact, I was talking to Andy said, like, what is it, 98% of all people in Afghanistan didn't know who Sama Bin Laden was and didn't know 9-11 had happened, right? So we just think about our cost of war, but then you've got to look at the long-term cost of what's the displacement within societies, and it's going to come home to roost.

I mean, I was listening to there was a general who supported us when I worked on the other side of the house. He was a badass. As a matter of fact, I have a t-shirt with his face on it. I work out with it all the time. He was a real, he was committed to the cause. And he was, he was, we just, we just abandoned them. And they, uh, they tort, these guys told me they just tortured them viciously.

And this is a guy that for, for 15 years, 15 years dedicated his whole life to our nation. And they, you know, they told me what they did, what they did to him. And I was just like, whew, man. it's not like there's a cost there's a huge cost you know and i think the cost is felt on our on our soldiers here uh you know i think that the enemy that we were fighting is not it's not like the it's not like you know they're not like chinese or like russians and you know these guys didn't have drones they didn't have bombers they don't have any of that kind of stuff you know They had, you know, weapons that were, you know, that they took from the Russians,

the 70s, they're running around in flip-flops and, like, pajamas. And the ones that fought alongside of us believed in us, that we, they took us at our word, that we would, you know, that we would honor our commitment to them as a people and as a nation. And think about the girls and going to school and the children and my heart breaks for it. there's nothing I can do. I'm a pawn. I'm a minion, like, in the scope of things. But, but I, you know, I think that the karma is going to come home that's going to haunt this nation. You know, I think, you look, I look at my little children. I got, you know, my fifth kid about to be born. And I think about, what does 50 years look like, right? Fifty years.

It's going to come home. It's going to come home to us. And you could see the heart. hurt and you know what these guys I'm sitting there eating dinner with them I'm eating the footbread I'm sitting in there of course I'm waiting for somebody to come out and stab like a ventana in the side of my head like I cannot believe I'm in the situation but I show these pictures I'm like I can't first of all they're in like abject poverty all right they're like in these refugee camps where it's like no wheels on the vehicles shit everywhere and like here here you go thanks for helping us out and um you know I just uh You know, I have a heart for people.

That's my life. My life is people. And I see that hurt, whether they're, you know, Afghani or American or whatever. I see the hurt because it adds to the global collective, you know. And everybody can feel it. They can feel the whole world changing right now. And, you know, I think that hammer is going to come home. I think it's going to hit us right in the face, you know.

So how long did you continue to work doing that job? with OGA. Yeah, so I, I did it for almost four years. And, and what was the opt-temper? How often were you going on to plumbing? How often were you home?

I was, every 60 days to 90 days, depending on where I was and what I was doing. Sometimes I get extended or whatever. And that's about all you could take of that job before you just got completely burned out. So it's 60 to 90 days. deployment 30 days home and then 30 days home is it yeah like when you come home how long does it take you to reset and freaking enjoy your life before you're like well I got to go back again in

four days or whatever you don't you don't I never get out of that zone I would come home and be I was so intense you know I was I was an intense person and I didn't have I wasn't on the face but I didn't I'm not I didn't I didn't live that my whole life was isolated i have like the same friends like the same people you know the same job i i i didn't like i wasn't out there my i would come home and i would be very distracted like i because i always knew that i had to like leave again and then in um in 2014 i was in a really significant ordeal um i would say it was like up there in my top two or three events i had in my, you know, military, paramilitary career was, uh, actually I would say it's probably the top,

like it was the most insane gunfire in combat and carnage that had ever been involved in. And, you know, that's when I kind of was like, enough was enough for me. I had had enough at that point, you know, so, um, and that's kind of when my whole world fell apart, really, because I didn't have that anchor anymore. And that that had become my identity. Like when that identity went away, you know, I was kind of left spiral with all these experiences and skills and things. And now I had no mission, no purpose. What was different about that event that, I mean, you'd had your buddy's been killed before.

You'd done missions where there's a ton of pressure. You've been in gunfights. Like, why was that particular event, the straw that broke the camel's? back because there's no community uh you know you're a gun for hire and there's no community it's not like i come home and i'm like with the team and with all my buddies i'm in my platoon i got the people i got the things i got this culture i show up and i'm with different people from different units i got two guys here and a green beret here and you know a ccd guy here you know and you become friends and you yeah there's a brotherhood but then i may never see those i'm going to have to work with

them again. I may be over here. So when you go home, it's kind of just like, oh, you're just like you just get on the airplane. I mean, when I came home, I flew through DC. I still had like, you know, pieces of concrete. Like, you know, I was still banged up like and I just like arrive home at the airport. Like, and then that's just it. There's no, nobody calls and says like, you okay. Like, what's going on? Like, how's the family? Like, nothing. You're just, I'm living in a rule area by myself with my wife and kids and I'm you know there's I you feel like you have nobody. Does your wife have any idea what's going on? Not really.

I mean, yeah. I mean, I didn't like tell her stuff, but she could just tell. Matter of fact, when I left and I resigned, I, um, there, and there was a lot of reasons for that, but, um, I remember my, my daughter, my middle daughter said to me, mom always sits in the car and cries every day and by herself and I was like and I was like about what you know like so like I went over there and I remember I was like where are you crying in the car like what's going on and she's like you're just you're so intense like and I didn't say anything I mean I wasn't chatting it up but I just radiated the form of intensity like at any minute I'm ready to go

and yeah i mean if it wasn't for horses and what i'm doing right now i'm probably i don't know i look at the state of veterans today and i don't think that people understand it's the severity of what's happening to our culture especially like kind of where we come from you know and my my my career is a just a fraction of of you living a lifetime in that you know and uh but it has a huge impact on you long term and we forget about those people and like I was kind of rattling off some of those statistics like I mean if you look at having 50,000 nonprofits in North America for vets 50,000 between 2012 and the end of 2020 we spent 92 billion dollars all right the top five nonprofits for veterans have billions of dollars all right there's organizations in those top

five that, you know, spent $28 million last year on postage stamps, right, $18 million on TV ads, right? The addiction rate of what I see of guys coming and applying to my program a couple hundred a year. I can only look at those hard numbers, right? But 75% of those guys are on at least two. My maximum guy had come to Heroes and Horses, was on 13 medications. Last year, we had a guy come on 11 medications come off all and lose 37 pounds and 41 days in the program right nobody cares about nobody looks at any of those kind of things the joblessness the suicide and then there's a conversation about living and being alive we say oh this is a success story because he didn't kill himself and i and i've looked at guys and i told him you're you're you're dead

you're already dead you haven't pulled the trigger but you're dead you're not living any form of life and you know if it wasn't if I didn't happen to fall into I guess you could say or or be directed I guess serendipitously or you know I don't I don't know because I was uh I was just I was so wrapped up in anger you know and I felt alone in the world because it's not like you don't have anybody around you. You're just done. You know, and you realize like you're just, you're just a number. You are literally, if the tool breaks, they throw the tool away. You never hear these stories. I could tell you stories about guys that have been shot and busted their, you know, crippled and they can't even pay their bills. They're living in a one-room shack and, you know, trying to get

medical payments, like contractors, like it's, you then tie that into their military career and it just becomes this caustic cocktail. And that's why I've dedicated my life to this, because I think that there's something special, whether, no matter what you did in the military, that you went and signed up knowing that you could die in a time of war, because you believed in something. And I think people think that means fighting for the government, but I think it means fighting for your country and fighting for what is good. And somewhere, when that gets lost and gets twisted, I think a whole person loses their anchor point and they spiral out of control. And yeah, I mean, I, yeah, so that's why today the program that I run is, it's so

intensive. And so when you got out, when you left that contracting job, did you have a plan? No. Well, yeah, kind of, I guess. I left because I remember I was, I got home on Christmas Eve and I was like putting together all this like my wife picks me up from the airport and I remember I'm driving she's driving you're living on the east coast at this no I'm in montana oh okay and uh snowing out and she's driving and she just starts like hysterically crying and I'm like you know what's your problem and she's like are you okay and I'm like

fine and she's like I just like I can feel your energy coming off you you're like a furnace right now and I was like fun like and she's like okay like well we got to like you know put the Christmas stuff together and I got extended so I'd been on like a long trip so Christmas Eve I go back and I remember I'm like it was the frozen the frozen thing enough to drive anyone freaking out of listen you want to talk about freaking snapping like I had the frozen car like I'm trying to put the wheels on like and I remember I was shaking so bad and I was like I was just so in my head because you know after that we you know some things happened we got the suicide bomb went off and all these like things that happened and I remember like I just could I couldn't downregulate I mean I just couldn't

down regulate even just driving in the car I felt like I was there like everything was happening around me yeah when you said that 30 days coming home for 30 days I can remember coming home off of deployments and it takes like a 30 day period to where you're like okay like my first deployment to iraq we there was this big paranoia about getting you know i.e. deed when you went under bridges or ambushed when you went under bridges. And so you know, you'd always kind of like take a little breath before you'd go under a bridge in a, in a,

in a convoy. And, and I remember when I came home, you know, I'm like, I'm not trying to say I was freaking out or anything, but when you, when I would be driving my car from work back home and go under a bridge,

it'd be like, you'd have that just like, oh yeah, I remember that, just this little something in your mind, right? And it would take like a month for me to go away. So I'm thinking,

you're coming home for 30 days, that's not enough time to get any sort of like, to, what'd you say, downgrade or whatever? Downregulate. There's no time. 30 days is not enough to down regulate,

period. And when you're, all you're doing is coming home and you know you're going on another deployment in that 30 days, you might as well, I kind of feel like you might as well not even come home because it's just,

what good is it going to do? That's freaking crazy. It is. And it's, it's crazy that, amount of work that's carried out by contractors around the world. I don't think people understand the scope of it, especially when it pertains to like the DIA, the NSA, the CIA, like, you know, these institutions that use contractors. Yeah, it's a, it's a tough transition for sure. And I happen to,

you know, for me, like going back to work, you know, I started working on a ranch. I met some guys. And so I would kind of like immerse myself in that. And so Christmas Eve. Yeah. I kind of cut off your story. So this is, you just had this sort of what you called the biggest incident in your career. Yeah. I would say one of the top three for sure.

Like definitely. And now you get into the freaking aluminum tube and you wake up and you're in freaking Montana again. I'm in Montana and I'm like, and I remember I was trying to put, I couldn't focus to like even put the wheels on the thing. I was just so. And I remember like I stayed up all night.

I got in late. I got in basically Christmas morning and like the kids got out and of course they're like American consumerism. I'm like, ah, my tie. They're not even looking at the thing and ripping stuff, stuff,

so you're everywhere and I'm like, you know, the waste. Like the dolphin's gonna eat that. So we're like, you know, and I remember I'm like trying to cook breakfast that morning. I've been up now for, I don't know, probably 48 hours or something. And I remember cooking breakfast.

I'm looking out of the window and I was like, my wife came and we were kind of her arm on me. You know, I'm trying to, like, be happy and everything. But I just looked there. I was like, I'm just like, I need some more time home. You know, so I email and say, hey, like, I need some time home. And obviously, like, this huge thing happened.

And it was huge. And, like, you know, the highest levels were involved and came overseas. Like, so, like, is that, like, you know, they didn't know or anything. And they're like, well, we, like, need you to go back. you know take this team blah blah blah and and if you don't come back we're going to dock your pet and that's when I was like back to like my master chief story you know I was like zz like and and I was just I was just done I really wasn't sure I had I had started um you know I'd started my foundation and and so then I did a film called one EDAL you had already started your

foundation at this point I had filed the paperwork and done I didn't run anything or done anything yet. And so did you have a vision for what the foundation actually was? Yeah. Okay. And that's evolved significantly to what it is today. But yeah. So then I ended up in 2015 running my first season, which was like come out for two weeks,

go home, come out for two weeks, go home. And so I did a film with Yeti called 180 out. And I had met a guy. Strangely enough, my wife had this like mommy's workout thing. I watched a video. He was a big hunter. Mark C-Catap, and he was like Sicka's main guy, Yeti's main guy, big archer, he wrote a, he made a video called Searching for West. And it's about him being this prolific archer and how his son's born and he's kind of like thinking about why he should be there with him.

And, you know, so I watched this video overseas with a bunch of guys. And they're like, oh, this guy lives in Bozeman. So I send the video to my wife. She launches this like mommy's workout thing. And his wife comes. and strangely enough, like, so I was like, this is the guy from the video. Like, this is the hunting guy. And so we ended up, like, meeting and he goes, hey, I want to do a video on you.

A Yeti video. And he was making all the Yeti videos at the time, like a bunch of them. And so initially it was about me, like, being an archery, El Conner or whatever. And then he got to know me. And he's like, hey, I want to, like, do it on your standing up this foundation on your first season. and that first season was, I don't know how that year didn't kill me, honestly. I mean, it was probably the hardest year I've had in my entire life. I got to, you know, I bought my house, basically broke, no paycheck.

I started trimming trees for a guy. I'm like working on the side. Like, you know, my relationship was like touch and go. I started shoeing horses. I'm trying to bring these vets out. I'm self-funding everything. I am basically down to, you know, a few thousand dollars in the bank account. And I end up meeting a gentleman that over a beer totally randomly for a friend of mine

that gave me a $25,000 check. And before he gives me the check, and I was $24,500 in debt with the nonprofit. And I never met this guy before. I'm on the way to Wyoming to shoot for National Geographic. And I got a huge fight. I'm charging up my credit cards. Nonprofit, you're supposed to raise money. The people donate.

then you use that money to do good. I didn't really know anything about that. So I started a nonprofit and started putting my own money into the nonprofit and going broke. I missed that page. So I'll never forget it. This guy comes. I got horses on a trailer. I'm heading into Wyoming to shoot for National Geographic, packing some guys.

But he calls me up, oh, stop and get a beer with this guy. I'm like, I can't. I'm just, I'm like a lot of problems right now. And I couldn't pay for the vets to come back. So I had all these vets supposed to come back. And the last words I have in my wife was like, I'm doing this. And I'm charging up the cards. And I'm going to finish when I start.

I don't care what it costs. I don't care if we sink the whole family. I'm doing this. I'm finishing this. So on my way to Wyoming, and my buddy's like, hey, dude, it's Marine. He's like, let's get a beer with this guy. And I refuse, refuse.

He keeps persistently calling me. So finally I stop. I grab one beer with the guy. I sit there. I kind of talk for like, I don't know, 45 minutes. I was like, I got a gig going. He's like, can I talk to you outside? So I go outside.

He looks at me. He goes, he wanted to pet one of the horses. And he's allergic, so he puts a glove on. He's out there petting it, both a guy. He looks at him. He goes, you're the worst nonprofit guy I've ever met in my life. And I've been working with charities for 40 years. And I was like, of course, my ego's like, you know, fuck hell.

Like, how dare you? But he was right. I was. I didn't know what I was. I didn't know anything. And he hands me a check. And he goes, I want you to call me. I like what you're trying to do.

So it gives me a check. I drive down the road. I look at it for 25 grand. And that's when I knew I was doing the right thing. And so, you know, I think like initially looking back, I think really I was like trying to find a way to help myself, you know. And because I felt so lost. You know, I just, I felt lost.

I had no purpose. I had no mission, you know, and working with horses and shoeing horses and just that world just took me out of where the focus was all of myself. And my focus became on managing these animals and learning about them and learning and learning about myself through the animal. I didn't really know that then because the guys that I was with were force fear and repetition. You know, they were old school cowboys,

putting me on a horse, I was getting bucked off and kicked and all those things and whiskey drinking. And that was perfect for me at the time. But, you know, through that relationship over the years, horses became a mirror reflection to who I was, you know, because they're a prey animal. And they're designed to stay away from things with eyes in front of their head. You know, they're instinctually highly intelligent, cerebrally, very stupid. Horses is a dumb animal. And, but instinctually, they're highly evolved.

And so, you know, I brought these guys out. I finish out the season with them. I start the next season. I start getting some fundraising behind me. I have the first class. A guy leaves the two weeks, goes home at ODs and dies, Army officer. And dies in his house, ODs. He was a lieutenant.

And so then I extended the program to realize. I still have this letter. I wrote the class. And so I extend it. And today the program is now 41 days long. I'll kind of skip ahead to that. but what I realized is that it's actually struggle that gives everything in life value. And so everything designed for veterans is designed to take the struggle away.

Like people that wanted to help me wanted to take the struggle away, when it was the re-engaging in the struggle that helped me reestablish a foundation and who I am as a person or who I was. And I really just became an identity. I lost a baseline to that connection with myself. and, you know, so many times the job is what you do, but a purpose is how you live your life. And so when that job went away, I didn't have that purpose because I'd never really learn that, you know, that deeper connection to something that is, you know, I think that that's what makes us human. I think that we live inside of our minds and we live a series of ideas and we level up through all these things and we get some stuff and we get some thrings and we get to some point.

places, we achieve some heights. But at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, the real question is, like, what is it all for? What is meaning in life? And I think when those identities fade and people stop waving the flag and nobody really cares that you're in the Air Force for 20 years and it's, you know, and nobody cares that you were overseas. Like your kind of life kind of goes on.

Everything spirals out of control. And the problem is always you. And I think that, you know, now today looking at what happens over 41 days, it's really one long continual conversation here with yourself. Who am I as a person? Because, you know, the average person I was reading yesterday spends between 15 and 23 years in front of the TV. Okay? God.

All right. Like, I started, like, I started, I was verifying it this morning because I was like, that is the craziest thing ever. because the average person lives, well, let's say 80 years. That's 30,000 days, right? So if you spend between 15 on the low end or 23 years watching television, right, then you're not working for 24 hours, right? You have eight hours of sleep every day. And then, you know, ages 1 to 5, what are you doing?

You're eating shit off the floor. You're pooping your pants. You don't know anything. You can't even talk, right? You're just like wandering around. People are stuffing you in seats and putting weird clothes on you. Right? And then they do the same thing to you when you're,

old, right? So you've got to knock off a few years at the end where they're putting weird things in you and putting diapers on you and you kind of revert back. Right. So how much time do you really have? Well, I was just crunching some rough math. So between 37 and 38 years roughly because you spend, you know, what is it, 419 hours on the toilet, you know, you spend, you know, a year and a half showering. You know, there's all these other things that you look at. I mean, the question is like, what is this all about? You know? And what I realize is that success and failures are one and the same.

You can have a success and that success can be the worst thing that ever happened to you. And you can have a failure and that can be the worst thing that ever happened to you. Because the byproducts are the same. They inhibit growth. And they stop evolution because you have an experience, then you perpetuate that identity associated with that experience. and then you live and create your future. So human beings are constantly the victim of their own choices.

And everything in society is saying, no, it's not your choices. It's everything else around you. And so, you know, over 41 days, I always say like, I don't have any ideas for you. I'm not advertising. Come to me and I'm going to tell you what to do. I say, come here and I'll put you in a place. Well, you're going to learn what that is. and I'm not going to judge you for whatever the outcome is because that's your life to live.

That's your 37 years that you have. Get off the TV. But the state of the American veteran is absolutely in dismal condition. I didn't know a lot about nonprofits when I started. As a matter of fact, I didn't know anything. And along the way, I've met every crook liar in charlatan from here to the Rio Grande. Because it's a people make. billions off the backs of other people's pain. I'm sorry. If you serve 10 years in the military,

the answer for you is not to float in a tube and eat donuts, like, or, you know, to go to Texas and, you know, shoot a deer that's tied to a tree in front of a corn feeder. Like, nothing's more healing than that, right? Like, you know, I'm sorry. Like, and people hate me for saying that. And my thing is, like, you're, you're, fuck you. Like, I don't care. Like, because I see. I see it. I see the state of these guys that show up and they are completely fractured and they've been to 15, 16 institutions. They're on this. They've been injected with that. They're on these pills. They're on these psych meds. They're on this. Medicaid. They're on this. And I look and I'm like, the pandemic of suicide in the veterans community can't be understated. And the numbers, like, I don't even know if you would ever even be able to find the real numbers, really. But it's subsisting. You know and this whole catch thing you know 22 a day like like if you're doing 22 pushups a day for veterans suicide

You're an asshole like 22 push my kid can do a hundred he's eight okay Like at least have some dignity and then it's like you know you're on there filming like hey guys vets are killing themselves Shout out to my sponsor from my new t-shirt I'm gonna be doing 22 pushups today New Lycra by the way go online 10% use my code Bob and I mean this This is the world that we're living in. And I'm like, we have to get back into the business of developing human beings. You know, we have a desire. You know, human beings are now in such a state of like hyper complexity where everything is integrated,

everything is connected, that there is no individualality. There is no original thought. You become an amalgamation of everything that you've heard and been exposed to, but you really do nothing, right? Like the jury's out, like wake up, do hard work, learn about yourself, turn the shit off, like, meditate, like, you know, eat a carrot every now and then, like, and life is going to be pretty good for you.

Doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but you'll have the built-in tools, and you'll begin to learn about your higher self. And, you know, people can say, like, you know, oh, this is like woo-woo magic or whatever, but like there is. like, I don't care. You're in war. You like, you got the spiky senses. What is that? What is that? What is that thing? What is meaning, right? What is this? What is this thing meaning that we all have? We're all going to answer that

question at some point in our life, whether you get hit by a, you know, a skateboarder, like, and whack your head in a curb or you die in combat or you, you know, eat yourself to death. Like, you're all going to face those things. And to me, the hero's journey is the journey of learning about yourself and using those tools to overcome the external circumstances that you face. And so, like, over the 41 days, like we have, you know, every guy walks at least 80 miles in the program just to meals. They'll spend 22 days in the wilderness. They won't eat a piece of sugar. They won't eat dairy. They won't eat, they won't have juice. They will only eat meat, vegetables, salt, water, and black coffee. And they will learn to meditate. They'll get into an ice tank every single day.

they will start their day with mindfulness. They'll read books. They'll go through leadership courses. They'll learn to shoe horses, ride horses. They'll learn to see themselves in working with wild Mustangs. They'll be put in very dangerous situations. All these are just tools to shift focus from a person that is always looking out for answers to a person that is looking in for answers.

And then using those answers to then change the material world around them with their choices that are authentically theirs. and that's called purpose. And when you start to do that, there's always a dragon that steps out right in front of you, right? The dragon steps out in front of you. And then you find out how much you really want it because everything is designed today to keep you from knowing what you are. Like social media doesn't exist if you're not there.

The internet doesn't exist if you're not there. You are the energy source that feeds your own demise. So you give your energy to feed your own destruction, and then you complain about the very thing that you're feeding when it's always you. You're the one. I always tell people like, oh, God, like the guys, the Twitters, the this, and then, you know, whatever. It's like, oh, God, he's did that.

But it's not there if you're not there. You feed it. You are feeding and you are clothing and you are arming your own captors. You are. Everything is designed to keep you sound asleep. Consume, consume, consume. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, food, bum, mum, yum, yum, let's get something.

You know, everything is designed to fulfill these physical desires that then override you from searching from the real energy source that the people that are aware know of. They know I need you to feed what I'm building. You will serve, serve, serve, serve as the cob. in a gigantic organism and you will give your energy 40, 50 years of it, and you get your little plaque, thanks for Bob, employee of the month, and then what? You go down to South Florida and you sit there and you just wait. Your car, you're sitting in the same traffic. Yeah, maybe it's a Ferrari. So what? You're in the same traffic. And maybe you get a little bit of better beef.

and maybe this one was massaged by 50 Japanese ladies or whatever, right? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because then the fear starts to build. And the clock just starts going. And next thing you know, what are they doing? They're like, ah, it's too late. It's too late. You've missed the meaning of life.

You've missed it. And veterans are out there like perpetuating these identities. That's why I don't do like, you know, these guys, they show up. And it's just like, dude. you got out in 2005. It's 2022. Okay. They're putting chips in people's brains, man.

No one cares about the logistics department and Bogram in 05 that, you know, may or may not have been mortared, right? Like, like, think about the numbers. You would think that every veteran is burned and every veteran has been amputated. 1,500 amputees. 0.000-026% of veterans have been amputated. There's billions of dollars of organizations to help they amputated. Billions.

We got this guy a wheelchair ramp. A ramp? How about like a ramp made of like wood? Like that's like 800 bucks, right? But this is what's happening. We have to get back to where we start developing ourselves, push ourselves away, reunite as a community, and start getting serious about human development, and begin giving our energy to things that matter, like our food, our water, our shelter,

like the community around us, doing things that are good, turning off that stuff. Don't spend 23 years of your life in front of the TV. Like, we have to change. We have to change our minds. We have to change our bodies. We have to become the governors of our own perception. We're no longer the governors our own perceptions. Perceptions, they create actions and behaviors,

and they're being governed by something else. And my message is that I don't have the answers, but you do. And the jury's out on greatness. It's spattered on walls and caves and books and tablets throughout all of mankind. The jury is out. Know thyself. know thyself there's a reason why everybody wants your energy because you're building an empire and that empire just turns out that you're its unwitting prisoner and you can walk away

and you can let yourself out and you can change you can do it we can do it and i'm not going to sit back and be a participant and watch generation like i'm nobody special i'm nobody of notoriety i'm not like all I do is I believe in the dignity of the human experience. And there's people that I have done some really great things throughout all of the history of mankind. And they did it by knowing themselves. And then whatever, you know, we love to watch the brave hearts and we love to watch the Patriots and we love to be that person. Be that person. It's not about dying when being burned at the stake when you're 23.

Well, do you spend 23 is your life watching TV? That's a great 23 years that a guy like William Wall. his hat. He was able to do that because he understood it something. Dredano van Bruno, who was burned at the stake by the Catholic Church in the 1500s for writing the Pope of Vue, he looked at them when they were going to burn him at the stake, and they cut his tongue out, and they nailed it to him over his head, and they were getting ready to burn him. They tried to get him to recount that the earth revolves around the sun and all these things. That was heresy. And he looked at him, and he understood the deeper meaning of life, and he said,

It's not his last words, what? It's not eyes who is afraid. It's you. And then they lit the fire. What a badass way to go, you know? So I've just dedicated my life to, you know, right now the program is a 41-day-long program. You know, at the end of it, we have a Lakota sweat lodge. I've had the opportunity to get to know some of those medicine men.

And, you know, that's an ancient tradition that is 16,000 years. years old that dates back and uh and you know they say you go into the womb of the earth and when you come out you know um you're reborn and it's it's really like uh it's like an insane sauna that uh has chanting and all those other kinds of things and you you're in there in the heat and you kind of go the heat brings you from the kind of physical into the spiritual and so every guy will pass through those windows um and they'll do a four window ceremony upon graduation and then and then people are like, and then what? And I'm like, and then go and live your life because now you know and if you want to go participate in those same things, you can do it, but not ignorantly.

Because you know, you know that, wow, I'm creating my own experience. Like the whole idea of free will, I believe, is what Project Earth is all about. It's about free will. Well, the experiment in free will is coming to an end because everybody's been programmed everyone it's coming to an end and um i'm not going to let it come to an end in my life i'm going to take power of that because free will is powerful i could get up from this table right now sell my rental car illegally to a chop shop and go climb mount everest i could do anything anything but people do nothing they do nothing they don't understand the power that they have instead they give that unknown power away and then they blame life and they're the they become the victims of this experience. We can change. We can change right now. People can change. And in turn,

the goodness can be restored. The goodness of this nation, you know, the goodness that may just sign up and say, you know what, I want to fight against evil. I want to stand again. If I lose my limb, if I get burned, if I get, I don't care. I want to do it. And return to those values that represent not only us as Americans, but us as human beings. And, You know, that's, that's my message, you know, to the world is like that book right there. About face, wake up and turn around and do 180 degrees from what you're doing and your life will change. You will change. You will change.

And it will change for the better. Take that journey. Reject the easiness of life that is being sold because it is a poison and it is a cancer. And, uh, and you will. well, maybe you'll be rich, maybe you won't be, it doesn't, it won't matter because you will be wealthy in heart and wealthy in mind and wealthy in spirit, you know, and that's, you know, that's kind of what I want to share with the world. So what's this look like?

First question, do you need to know how to ride a horse to show up? No, no. Matter of fact, like, the majority of guys that come, I've never even seen, you know, never even ridden a horse before in their life. Had you ridden horses before? When did you start riding horses? I had one horse growing up. I never, I wrote it like a couple of times.

And that was about my experience. That was it. And then you're, I'm going for this? Yeah. What was the introduction to horses? So I ended up meeting some, I was, right before I got out. So this was like 2013. I ended up meeting some cowboys with horses in the back country.

And I got to know them and they invited me to the ranch. I met him on a hiking. I was just hiking with my daughter and I met him. And that's how I started shoeing horses. So I first started shooting horses with the guy on a tipping table. So they put them into a huge machine, tip them on their sides. And then my job was around like the wheel grinder. And I was just like helping out.

And eventually I started learning how to shoe horses and start colts. And these guys, like I kind of thought initially they were all about like helping vets and all this kind of stuff. They were like the most like crooked human beings I've ever met in my life. Like real legit crooks. You know, because the equine business is tough. Like in the cowboy world and all that kind of stuff. So, um, but I did learn a tremendous amount. Those guys were mentors to me, you know, all that should aside.

And then, um, and then I just, then you start riding horses all the time. Oh, every single day, day in and day out. Yeah. I mean, I, uh, like I said, I just crossed my 18th wilderness on a horse, you know. So, uh, I, we have 70 horses today. Um, and I've been breaking in training wild mustangs for five years now, like straight from the wild. And I always tell people, I'm like, if you like, you're like a legit tough guy, like, you're, like, I will put you in there with a completely wild horse,

and you're going to find out real quick how tough you are because the horse is immediately going to sense if you're afraid. And like I had this horse two years ago. I never did quite get him. I'll show you a cool picture of him going straight up in the air, and I'm on the end of this rope. He's the only horse I ever had actually like just straight up attack me. And like attack me.

And what would happen was is that he would like, You know, you get in there and you start moving around. And if you even take one step back, they're one step forward. Okay, because in the horse world, you know, there is a hierarchy. You know, so there's the alpha male and the alpha female. And they lead the herd. And then everybody else falls subsequently underneath. So the alpha male roams around, looks for predators, you know, keeps everybody at bay.

And the mare is leading them to food and water in the wild. They eat first. They do everything first. And then it slowly goes down. So you're falling somewhere in that horse hierarchy. And, you know, to think about horses, the horses, the highest VO2 max of any land animal on Earth.

All right, they have binocular and mynacular vision. They can see out of both eyes completely independently. The right brain and left brain doesn't know. So they're looking at something on the left, the right brain has no idea. Just like my ex-girlfriend.

And so, but, you know, they, you know, when they put their heads down, they can see almost 360 degrees while they're eating. And, but they can't see four feet in front of their nose and they can't see four feet behind. them. And a horse is designed really to do one thing, run. So they have, you know, 50 liters of fluid in their stomach at any given time, which slashes around this fleet, free-floating intestinal system. So as the horse moves, that fluid slashes and slaps in the diaphragm, which causes them to go

to breathe in. So it's a boom, boom. So they're breathing in super hard, and they can't breathe through their mouth. So they breathe through their nose and their noses are flared. So it's like an air ram system. And so a horse is designed like, you know, I can be a mile away. I was out in Wyoming. There's wild horses on a horseback. They can feel the vibrations in the ground. And you just can see them on your binoes.

They just, they sense you, right? So they're highly evolved at getting away from predators. So now here comes human beings like, hello, I want to ride you. And so you have to, one, become their leader first. So you have to have an ability of self-leadership, right, because they can sense that. And then, you know, two, you have to gain their trust. and you gain that trust with that animal by, you know, pressure and release.

So applying pressure to that animal, releasing that pressure and essentially talking to them, you know. So if you watch me working wild horses, it doesn't really look like I'm doing much, but I'm controlling the direction of that animal because in horse language, whoever moves their feet first loses. So what happens is, especially with the students when they're first working with wild horses as the program progresses. It's a couple of days they get with wild animals. you'll see the guy, I don't know, 20-year Green Beret or whatever,

horse takes a step towards him, you'll see him take a step back. Well, that horse is like, okay, now you're my bitch. And the next time around, he's on you, right? And, you know, horses are like people. Some are, you know, docile, some are nice, some are psychotic, whatever, in terms of the wild ones. And so, yeah, I had this horse, and he's, you know, I get him, like, finally where I can get him saddled and everything like that.

It takes me, like, three or four days. and I can get hands on him, starting to pick his feet up. And one day he just came in, and he just never was a trusting horse. And I kind of pushed him more than I think he was capable of at the time. And I just kind of like he was just there. I said, I'm going to let him, like, soak or just let him stand there and rest. And it was a pretty rough morning. And I turned around, and he just, like, rears back and tries to strike me in the back of my head.

You know, and I kind of, like, fall forward, and then he bites me on my back, you know, and kind of throws me to the side or whatever. Of course, I'm like, can't crawl up the round pen fast enough, you know? Like, I mean, that's a large beast. And, you know, so. This was three or four days into you working with him? Yeah. And he.

So we adopt them completely wild. I think 28 of our 70 horses are wild horses. I've been, five years ago, I did a film called the 500 Mile project where I rode 16 wild Mustangs from New Mexico to Arizona, 760 miles. after trading them for three months with a couple guys. And it was the story of the unpurposed horse and the unpurposed human being. And so here you have the wild horse,

which is facing the same thing as the American veteran, which is huge government monies, right? So there's, you know, 50, 100,000, whatever it is today. I haven't looked. Wild Mustangs in captivity. So in 1979, they had the Wild Horse and Burrow Act. So they started rounding them up off the ranch lands and putting them into long-term holding facilities.

And today it's a $60 or $70 million. program and the problem's only worsening. They've tried to shoot them out of helicopters with birth control and all these kind of things. And so the whole thing is a disaster. And adoption doesn't really work either. It works on a small scale, but there's too many being produced to adopt them out. So we go there and we adopt them. We sort them out.

We figure them out. And if you watch the film and the opening scenes of the films is very intense. I mean, these horses have never been around people. So they're terrified because they're designed to run away from us. And so, you know, through a series of shoots and sorting things, you know, we pick out what we want out of hundreds of them and then we load them into trailers and we bring them back and then we start training them. And those are the horses that then go into the program. So, you know, a horse is a mirror reflection to who you are because a horse is designed at sensing your predatory instincts. So you may say, I'm not scared and I, or maybe I am going to hurt you because I'm going to be very aggressive with you.

and then the animal becomes very afraid of you. Now you may not be portraying that on the outside, but on the inside, that's what the horse is looking at. You could look like you're totally calm, but your heart's going 140 beats a minute. And the horse feels that. So then he starts thinking, what are you going to do to me? And then they'll test you,

because where are you going to be on the hierarchy? And if you watch them in the pens, there will be this one horse that will come along, everybody's eating, and as soon as he starts walking over, everybody goes away. and there'd be one horse that's like, maybe I'm not going to go.

And this horse like double barrel kicks him. He's like, yeah, I'm going to go. So you're, they don't, you're somewhere on that scale. And so horses, a lot of the program happens in the 41 days with these horses without talking. Because what happens is the horse reflects back

what you really are. And so people blame the animal. This horse is an idiot. Well, you're an idiot. Now, we don't say that. Sometimes I do. But these guys begin to realize, and when they change their internal compass, their relationship with their horse instantaneously change.

It is the most beautiful thing. You see this union where all of a sudden, okay, you're my leader. You're the alpha male or alpha mayor. And I'll kill myself for you. And when a horse believes in you, some of my rope horses and my really good horses, like the one you look kind of like that video I sent you or whatever, You know, they'll kill themselves. They will run for you until they die.

They will run through a fence. They will do anything for you because they trust their leader. But a lot of guys initially are just passengers on an animal that hates them because they hate themselves. And they're not able to have that internal compass be calibrated. So throughout that relationship and throughout them learning about horses, they're really learning about themselves to the medium of the horse. And so from day one, you know, guys apply to the pro. It's a really comprehensive application process. And it's 100% veterans?

All veterans. All veterans. Yep. And it's a tricky application. You know, most nonprofits, you kind of like fill out the thing and it's like, you know, you like pretzels or peanuts. Like you're welcome. Like this is like gets in your head.

And then, you know, through that process, you get selected, you know, kind of rate guys one to five. You know, we can only take so many guys. You know, we get a couple hundred applications a year. And then, and then we send them two books, communicate with them every week. help them lose weight, change your diet. We send them articles on testosterone suppression through SSRIs and medications and all these kind of unhealthy lifestyle. We help them kind of level up as they're preparing.

And then when they arrive, it's, you know, kind of indoctrination, getting in the ice tanks. This is how this works. This is our morning routine. So you wake up. It's a mile walk in the dark off the ranch. They walk down to the main area. They'll, you know, mobility work with Jim Jones. So they designed our workout program.

All based, you know, these guys are not trying to get jacked. or anything, but they, some of them are like straight off the mission of the kitchen. So, you know, they, they like, I mean, we have guys that like haven't, I had a guy last year that said he hadn't walked up a flight of stairs in seven years. Right. So now, like, you're entering into like, you want, I mean, pain. When you're scoping out applicants, are you trying to create a, what do you call it, a class? Yeah. So I create a class, but I, are you trying to create a class of like, do you look at the people and go, look, this guy's probably, he's going to need some help, but he's.

he's probably going to do well. This other person's like this is a train wreck over here. Or are you just looking for train wrecks? I just take the worst of the worst guys. So you're looking for it. And I put them all together and there's no signs to that. Because to me it's like you to get through this, you have to work as a team. But it's about the individual.

You're on your own journey. And you're going to need other people to help you along the way. But I don't care if they ever talk to those guys again. A lot of them maintain some of the closest friendships ever. Matter of fact, on the way here are some guys. Canadian Special Operations sent me a guy. And last year, and he changed his life. This guy was in a real bad way.

And they've maintained relationships with each other. But ultimately, it's about the individual because they're on the hero's journey. And the hero's journey is that you have to walk through those flames. You have to go through those fires. You have to feel it. And so, you know, 4.30 in the morning, they wake up. They walk a mile down. to the main camp.

Then they intentionally move their bodies. They get done with that. We do a meditation. And then they do breath work, the Wimhoff, breath holding. And then they get into an ice tank. And then that scales up to the end. They're sitting there for like 10 minutes. And that's pretty rough on guys that are like straight off.

And then it's all about horses. And so then in the evening we have what we call the Maxim Lab, which is a leadership course based on stoism. So I don't tell them any idea. as I'll present a question. What does it mean, you know, choose to be harmed and you're harmed, choose not to be harmed and you haven't been? What does that mean?

And guys will go around and let them talk things out. And so throughout the program, they'll do that for 40 days. And then after six days, they'll head into the backcountry for eight days. They are given a horse and a mule. So wait, six days, they've been there? Yep. They've been doing this routine. Yeah.

They've been learning about horses. Well, at this point, everybody can lope a horse on a dead run. everybody can you know rain control their horse and pack a mule and understands equine medicine trucks trailers all that kind of stuff they get all that in six days so it's very intensive those are some long days extremely long days um matter of fact like there was like a guy the vet came out and he's like um like there's like guys sleeping like right next to the horse I'm like I know guys come on we're not in the military now We have to stand up. And like, but, but.

So six days of, so the beginning of the program, they're there, they're getting all this good stuff that you're giving up. And they're only eating like meat, vegetables. What do you say? Salt, water, and coffee. That's it. Okay. There's no juice. There's no dairy.

There's no honey. Nothing. And, and then after six days of that, then it's, we're going in the wilderness. Yep. On horseback with a horse, you on your horse and your mule. Correct. As a team. As a team.

So then those guys are paired together. Eight guys in the class are paired together and they've got to pack their own stuff. And then, of course, there's camp gear and all that stuff. We have duties all lined up for everybody. And that's a progressive trip. So there is no main camp. So every day they pack up and move. So, you know, all ultralight stuff, you know, most of the time I never use a 10.

I just sleep out unless it rains. And they'll spend eight days. We'll do like around 80 or 90 miles on that trip. Then they'll come back and they'll start the next morning. What's called Ranch Week. So now they're going to learn how to rope. They're going to, we have, you know, cows. They're going to learn how to rope cows, how to do stock management.

They're going to learn more advanced riding. They're going to learn how to work on a ranch, how to be on a working ranch. And so that's called Ranch Week. It's all about ranch stuff. They'll drive tractors and they'll learn all these things in different groups throughout, you know, the whole facility. Then a lot of times we'll go to another ranch. We'll help them gather and sort and ship cows and do stuff depending on what's going on. So that's Ranch Week.

And then they start, you know, I guess you could say like phase two or something, where they're another six days of training. So that training is blacksmithing. So they'll learn how to shoe a horse. They'll learn how to trim. They'll learn equine medicine. They'll work with wild Mustangs. They'll do colts starting. They'll do raining.

They'll do more advanced riding. They'll do roping. Well, they'll actually rope live cows and they'll learn how to manage them, how to operate on a working ranch in terms of all the agricultural components. And they'll learn more packing and learn how to put, you know, seven, eight, ten animals out of time, pull them together, how to drive trucks, how to drive trailers, how to do chains, how to run chainsaws, how to run. all those kind of things and then and then they'll head into the backcountry for 11 days and then that's a time how many days deeper we into this program right now like is the 11 days 30 days or something so is the 11 days sort of like the final days in the field yeah and that's a tough trip like it's tough on me it's tough like you know 11 or 12 days in the wilderness like that

progressively moving wears on you plus the animals have their own personalities and there's you know we run our stock loose so we We hobble them and we turn them loose in the mountains. And so, you know, you got to get up and you got to gather in the morning. It's cold. It's snowing in August. You know, all those kind of challenges. Last year we rode across the wind rivers.

We did 120 miles across the wind river range. And that was a brutal trip. It was incredible, but it's just tough. And then, you know, you're shoeing horses. You're constantly where you're building camp. You're cooking everything. And it's all this, you know, like whole food stuff. So guys are, it's a tough trip.

And then they lead every day. So every day, a different guy leads. He has the map. He has the routes. He makes all the decisions. I let him fail. I let them fall flat on their face. I let him make mistakes as long as nobody's going to get hurt and let him feel that.

Take ownership of all those kind of, you know, that leadership component and confidence and stuff. And so, and then they get back. And then when they get back from that trip, obviously everyone's decimated. So the average guy last year lost 20 pounds in the program. Our record that last year was 37 pounds in 41 days. And yeah. And then the med count was 11 psych men's guy, a guy walked away from. And then, of course, you have the guys on the one season, the two seasons and stuff like that.

So they get back, then we wake them up at 1 o'clock in the morning. They usually get to bed around 10 that night after week. Because, you know, horses come first. So you've got to doctor horses, clean horses. You got to do shoes. You got to do all those things. And then we'll wake them up, drive them to a mountain, make them climb Sacchargeoia peak. So 10,000 foot peak in the dark.

Because the metaphor is that nobody really cares what you just accomplished. because behind every mountain is another mountain. And so we want them to feel that. And in that video, you can see the guy standing on that peak, and then one guy's kind of rubbing the other guy in the back. You know, none of that's acting or anything. You know, that was a real emotional moment because they have lived a lifetime. And it is real life.

It's not like you're coming here and this is fake life. And now you're going to leave and go back to real life. It's all real life. There is no fake life, right? It's all real, right? You put the virtual reality goggles on for nine hours. That's real life, right? right it just not time doesn't stop and so um they climb that mountain they come down pack up all their

gear and then the next day is graduation day so then they get into the sweat lodge so they graduate get into the sweat lodge uh they go through that we do some sound stuff with them and then we have a year-long take-home course called stay the course where the guys have diet reading you know suggested reading you know fitness stuff access to an app um and uh kind of like you know whole food eating stuff like that. And then the guys that want to, we plug them into an internship. And then they go for four to six weeks to Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, Utah. They go to work in ranches. They go to cowboy outfits. They go to outfitters in the Yukon. And at this point in their life, when they're done, they've moved on. And I had an interesting guy this year who came straight out of the Marine Corps,

basically like weeks and came here and he showed up and he was like straight up like ranger rick you know yeah like the like the oakley's on you know he had like he like he's straight everything was the military everything was the military when he left he had left all his military clothes in a garbage bag had you know cowboy hats like the whole thing and had essentially he's been worked on he's Mexican I got him I happened to know a team guy buddy of mine, awesome guy, and who works for a guy that has a ranch in Mexico. So he's been ranching in Mexico. Like his whole life is like completely different.

I think what would happen if more people got out and immediately took on the next challenge in their life in the face of everything and where would they be today? And, you know, that's my overarching goal is that like, you know, the sweat lodge is a super powerful thing. And it can be terrified. How hot is a sweat lodge? fucking really hot Like

Like really hot Hotter than normal sauna hot Oh yeah Yeah so so the rocks that they use They go out and gather the rocks They're lava rocks They haven't been heated up since the last You know younger dryest impact

They're last major volcanic Eruptions And you know they put them in there And there's a lot drumming and songs They honor everything The water and the earth And all those things And it's called the Anipi Wakam, which is one of like seven sacred ceremonies.

So like the Sundance, which is hanging by your flesh from a pole for three days with no food or water. And then to come off that, they hook buffalo skulls to you. And you have to run into the desert until they rip out of your back. These guys have all done this numerous times. And then there's the- When you say these guys, you're talking about the- The Locoa guys, yeah. work with.

Yeah. And they, they, they're some of the, there's some of the deepest, most special people that I've ever met. They are people that when you meet them, you're like,

these people are good. They're like good Pete, like there's a wholeness to them that is, um, attractive. Like there is a balance to them. And, uh,

so these guys, of course, are terrified. You know, everybody's like, you go into this little tiny lodge and you're in there. You can't see your hand in front of your face. And it,

the heat begins to, increase in the songs and they um you know they welcome in you know all kinds of different things and animal spirits all that kind of stuff and when you come out how long are you in there for um well the door open closes four times with the whole thing's like a couple hours and uh so then there's the then there's the vision quest where you go in there for 24 hours with no food or water alone um that's uh and then there's the four days we've had people on our ranch that gone up there for four days with no food and water by themselves in the mountain and they sit up there. In the sweat lodge?

No. So that's one of the other rights. So the sweat lodge was banned in North America until 1976. It was illegal. Matter of fact, dancing was illegal. Native American dancing was illegal. So when Columbus arrived in the North American continent, there were 60 million natives here. At the start of World War I, there was 800,000 left. In Buffalo, almost 60 million had been killed. to, almost to extinction. So those rights were banned and it was illegal. Matter of fact, it was illegal to carry those names unless you were like on a reservation. So there's a real tradition in history. You know, you're not taking psychedelics or anything like that. It's the heat

and it's the prayers. And it does change you and it leaves an impact. And the first time I ever did it, I'll tell you right now, I was ready to like dig my way out of there. Like I did not like it Because your mind's like, of course I start watching YouTube videos. You know, I'm like, oh, no. Like I get it. I was like, I'm going to die. I can't get out. SDV.

Like, no. Like, I'm back in the black tube of death. And I, it's had such an impact. And I've done eight of them now. And, you know, I've really like learned, I guess, like, in a way to honor myself, like in a way that is, you know, my mind, my body, my spirit by, like, what I eat. and who I am in relationship with, who I expose my life to, my energy to,

like what I put my intentions towards. Like, all these things begin to kind of open up to you as the weeks of your life go on. And so it's something that we've integrated into the program that's been really effective. And do you hallucinate? Is that what you're talking about? So, like, I had an interesting,

I guess you could say not every time it's been different. Not one has been the same. Some have been like incredible. Other ones I feel like I just suffered. Like they're all different. But I actually had a really interesting thing is that like I was in there and I saw a baby in the womb appear over the fire. But there's no fire. That's a hallucination.

I think. Well. I think. I'm not sure though. There's no fire. The rocks are just red, but you can't really see them. Then they're in this hole. so there's no fire it's hot rocks and they keep and then people open the door and bring them in and put

them in there and then they have buffalo horns and they add the water they keep dumping water on it with buffalo horns and they're singing drums and chanting all and stuff and I saw like a baby in the womb like in a fetus and it appeared like over the fire and I thought like oh man like I'm like the children like are dying or something I don't know I had this like thing and then like a week later my wife found out she was pregnant. And then I instantaneously knew, like, that's what I saw, I knew that I would have another child. And I don't believe that children come from you.

I think they pass through you. And, you know, I think they're here for particular times. I think we can become derailed as human beings because, you know, we get enticed, you know, by gross materialism and all these things that detract us from ourselves. And then somebody else has got to come along. But, yeah. So that experience has been powerful.

So I added it to the program. And people are always like, so what book did you read? Who did you do? Like what did you do? I'm like, nothing. Zero. It's just my own journey. It's all the things that I've done in my life that have helped me really become united with myself.

I had become homesick from who I was as a person. Rather it was the wild and crazy religious stuff of the day or, you know, cast and the demons or whatever, or it was the military or was the agency or it was all these other experiences. you know I had lost a footing and a connection to myself and now that that connection and that link has been restored you know I feel a balance that I've never felt before my life I you know I always tell people I'm like I don't have a retirement I don't have any 401k I told my kids I'm not paying for your college and I'm not buying you a car like I'm not doing any of those things. But I will build an ecosystem here and teach you how to hunt and how to work the

land and how to honor the animals and do all those things. And I will support you, but you're going to have to do it yourself. And, you know, I'm not going to, if I go tomorrow and they're like, you got cancer. I'm like, okay, I'm going out like Bob Marley. Like, I'm just going to be like, all right, cool. You're not poking me and sticking me or doing anything. I'll just like, I'm not, you know, so these experiences have given me a connection to a place. where you find true peace. It doesn't mean the world around you is peaceful. But, and it doesn't mean you're weak

and you're some kind of like, you know, snowflake or whatever. It's a balance that you, when you read about the great warriors, the Sun Tzu's, and you read the Tao Jing's, and you read about the Alexander the Greats, and you read about the people that Ulysses and all these great people. There was a balance they had. They were artists. They were calligraphers.

They would also kill you in 57 different ways. but not out of anger, not out of hate. And they were such a place of balance. And so, you know, my life now is about restoring that balance and then bringing that balance to other people, but I can't do it for you. And over the course of 41 days, you know, it is a conversation.

How much do you really want it? More often than not, we fall in love with getting in shape, you know. We fall in love with being healthy, or we fall in love with, you know, having things or whatever. But we don't like the idea of what it takes to get there. You know, we don't like that. We don't like to feel uncomfortable.

And we have to become comfortable and the uncomfortable. And in turn, the things that are holding you back, they dissipate and go away. So that's what the 41 days is about. Yeah, you know, you and I didn't talk before you showed up here today. And so when, like, I was putting together your words, and I'm glad you've hit this a couple times today and I'm I wasn't 100% sure but certainly I was pretty confident that idea that you are introducing situations to people that then they figure out like what the answers are to their questions and then you said it multiple times today like hey I don't have the answer for

you and I can't tell you what to do here what to do there but I can take you to a place where you're going to start looking you're going to start looking inside and you're going to start asking some questions and finding the answers. Yeah, exactly. And that's, everybody is trying to tell you how to be, you know, like you go to Tony Robbins, you know, I don't want to diss Tony Robbins or anything

because he's like, probably able to send assassins after me. But like, good luck to those assassins. Bring it. Yeah, bring it. I dare you. But, you know, like. They're going to track you up in the mountains on force back themselves.

Are you kidding me? Tony, you ain't coming there, dude. I dare you. Challenge you, Tony. I saw shallow. But, you know, like people get so fired up and they get so amped up and they spend their life watching all this stuff and all these things and going to these things, but they don't actually

do anything. If you did one-tenth of the information that's contained in your brain, you wouldn't be in a situation you were in. We just become addicted to getting more information. You know, it's like, you know, 12 steps to purpose. Like, oh, man, like you're going to get to the end and it's 12. It's like, woo! But then was a guy come out with nine steps? You're like, oh shit I got to get the other book there's only nine like you know like now he's got he's got he's got nine more books to write uh to me the jury is out on what it means to really be a human but we've lost that we've lost that knowledge um in pursuit of a construct that if i if i get to the end of an idea that never was mine in the first place i'll achieve some end state right

all retire or um all achieve happiness you know maybe it's a So it used to be in the 80s, you know, become a millionaire. Now if you're a millionaire, who gives a shit? A million bucks like, I mean, it's like, a million bucks is like nothing nowadays, right? You know, it's, what was it? Like, they had that spending bill or whatever. It's like, if you took $1 trillion and you stacked it on end to end and go a third of the way to the moon. Okay, so 3.5 trillion goes to the moon and part of the way back, right?

Like, so, but there, those things, like, that really matter in life are, are your food? your water, your shelter, and your relationships in your life. And if you're not in balance with those things, there's no things in life that are going to help you find a place of completion because eventually you will face the man in the mirror. You will eventually, no matter what, no matter how many cards, no matter what it is. Like I was using an example of like Warren Buffett was like laying in the desert and dying,

like about to die. And I came like walking by with some water. And I was like, hey, Warren, give me all the money that you have, and I'll give you this water. He would take it. He would 100% take it. He wouldn't be like, no, he'd be like, like, he'd want it, right? So it puts everything in relative perspective. And the most exciting adventure you can go on is the adventure with yourself.

That is the most exciting adventure. And then your whole life opens up. we spend her time like in shitty relationships with shitty people afraid to change in jobs that we hate doing things that we don't want to do to get to places that we never wanted to go in the first place and then we blen and then they wouldn't I was using the exam I'm like okay if you're depressed okay and everyone's like you know this for a while was like the mental health month and the mental all this mental health stuff was going on like crazy like you know everyone's like hey guys mental health month i'm you know skydiving for mental health like i'm um i'm um i'm conducting a

boxing clinic uh for mental health and bringing awareness to it and and mental health so then you're like i'm depressed and it's like okay i'm depressed so then you go to the person that's in charge of the construct and they say what's it matter you don't like your life well i don't know something's wrong they're like hmm well we're going to give you some things to get you back to work okay we're to get you back in love with the very thing that you hate. It's never something is wrong with the thing, the construct itself. It's always something wrong with you. So then you're like, okay, so you take the stuff and you feel good for a while and your butterflies and everything's going around, but then it wears off in six months and you go back. And then the people tell you, okay,

we got to get you back in love. We got to get you back to work. We got to get you back undepressed. It's never about making massive lifestyle changes. Like it's never about throwing the keys away, getting radically committed to yourself. It's always about changing you to get you back in love with the very thing that's causing the depression. Right? It's never about like radical change. It's always like, you have a chemical imbalance. So we'll give you some chemicals to get you back in balance. That'll work. By the way, it's 79 bucks a month. And so I think that like we have to stop. Like we have to pump the brakes. Like, you know, we have to. We have to return back to the basics of what it means to be a human. And, you know, my work with veterans is

like they're basically involved in a socialist system, right? They show up to an institution. It's a one-size-fits-all, right? My greater goal is to create a board of the smart innovators people that maybe there's a wellness arm, like a FedEx for veterans, right? And the post office doesn't work, where guys can say, you know what, red pill, blue pill, six weeks in therapy, men, this, that, counseling for 10 years, all these other things, institutions, meetings, or whatever. Or maybe there's an eight-week program I'm going to go to. That'll be the suckiest thing I've ever done in my life. It'll be the true hero's journey. But when I come out the other side, I will have learned what I am. And I will take that knowledge and I will begin to change the

world around me with my own energy, my own impetus, and my own identity from the inside out. we should give people that opportunity. But instead, you know, you show up to these, like you said, these false profits, that what are they there really, really to do? Yeah, what's scary about this is so much of the stuff that people get like prescribed or advised. It actually, you know, in some of the talks that you talk about like peeling away layers to get to you, all those other things are actually. added layers. They're adding layers on top of layers on top of layers that seem to smooth things over for a month or, you know, three months or whatever. And then all of a sudden that whatever's in there is starting to burn through and cause, you know, caustic material to rise the surface. And so

you're like, wait a second, I don't know if this is it. So you go back and they say, cool, oh, oh, you got a little friction coming out, little caustic materials coming out. Cool. Let's put another layer on that and put another layer on that. And then we, you know, what are you going to put over yourself? You're going to put, you know, a car or a watch or a whatever expensive item that is another layer on top of this. It's not a solution. No, it's not, it's not a, it's like this is set.

So I just went through yesterday with my wife. We like, threw out like a shit ton of stuff, right? Because the average American household has over 300,000. items in it. And I walked in there. You have a weird, like a nerdy freaking, what is it, statistical, analytical mind. Well, listen, I actually just watched like a thing when I was traveling back from Florida about these like minimalist people or whatever. And they, you know, of course, went in there. And it's like, and I told my wife, so we're down in Florida and what does she want to do? She's like obsessed with the goodwill. We don't buy anything new, but nothing. And the kids,

nothing new. Zero. Everything we buy use or, you know, goodwill or whatever. But that in it of itself is an addiction, right? Because I'm like, she's like, oh my gosh, I got this flannel. I'm like, you have like 90 flannel. She's like, I know, but this one was like three bucks. And I'm like, that's the problem, right? Like you don't need that, right? So we went, we were like, okay, once a week,

we're going to target one portion of the house and get rid of stuff. So yesterday, we threw out, we are taking to the goodwill. We, I mean, I don't, we took out an entire like Ford expedition full of things. Okay. and then like we were done at like three o'clock afternoon and I looked around and I was like it doesn't even look like we took anything out I mean like how many potato peelers did we have I was like we had like nine potato peelers meanwhile in Ethiopia I'm like I'm like we had so many things and what do things represent they're measurements of time they're measurements of time

because you have to have time expended and energy to get that thing Right. And so then I get this thing. And then there's always another thing that you need to get. Well, the attachment for the mixer that goes in the thing that does the pasta. Like, you know what doing that shit. But like, well, it's an extra 10, you know, we'll have to add it on there. And so we started going through it and just getting rid of tons of stuff, you know.

And the scariest thing is going to be like going to my closet, you know, like, and realizing that, wow, I've spent a lot of time in my life getting these things. And I'm like, never have time. I had a time and I have enough time. What am I doing with my time? I'm using my time to get things that I don't need. And so it's like Gandhi was asked the question, what confuses them most about modern man? He said,

modern man spends all his time to get money, then spends all his money to get his time back. That's, I mean, that's pretty profound, right? And I remember running that calculus as like a young, well, not a young seal, but I'd been in the teams for a while.

And there was people, I guess as sort of, remember the adventure racing things as that started coming out but then and then that became sort of extreme sport and like that whole thing and then I thought to myself man people like work hard to get money to pay for to learn how to skydive or scuba dive and I get to do that that's just freaking cool like I thought I had the whole system beat man it kind of did in a little bit you know it's like hey man I'm doing you're working your ass off to go to this I'm literally getting paid to do that stuff in the first place I

one thing that I That I think was probably It might be It's a very important part of my life When I was in the teams My first platoon and I like Figured out to take a step back and look around I call it detachment now because I don't know

That's the word that I figured out to call it But like you're in a situation There's shit going on and no one's making a decision And I like learned hey take a step back look around And you'll be able to see infinitely more than if you keep staring down the sites of your weapon or whatever. And I learned that clearing oil rigs and training. And then I started applying it and everything I did.

But then at some point I started applying it to like, you know, having a conversation with my platoon chief. And my platoon chief starts getting mad about something. And I'm thinking instead of me being in the moment like in my own head, getting mad back and escalating the situation. And now all of a sudden I'm yelling match with my platoon chats. I never did that. I'd be like, oh, hey, got it, chief.

and I would take a step back. And I feel like that was helpful and is helpful to me, I guess, all the time. Because I'm always like taking a step back and saying, hey, what am I really doing? What's driving me to do this particular thing or what's making me do this other thing or why am I not doing something else?

And it seems like when you go into these extreme situations, it's another time where it happens. Like when you're freaking dog-ass tired or you're freezing cold, it was like I was telling that story about my SDV buddy that was just like, I don't want to be doing this anymore.

And you take that step back. Do you feel anything like that like in these sweat lodges where, bro, you can only suffer so much and then you've got to just like take a step back and look at your whole life. Except. You have to let go.

See, it's like, You have, it's, it's the art of like letting go. It's the art of detaching. Like, and that's when you go from that kind of physical to spiritual, where, where you're no longer holding on to anything and you're just being. And that's when we spend so much time asking and wanting things, but no time listening, just being still and listening. Well, you know, in those places, you know, I'm like, you know, your mind's going a million

my eyes an hour and you're like, I got to get out of all these things. Like, ah, this. Things are popping up everywhere. I don't know. Betty. I wonder. Who's Betty? Like, all these things are coming, right?

And then all of a sudden when you learn to quiet your mind and be still and begin to listen, the things that you need for your life, out of the nothingness comes to you. I don't know how to explain it scientifically or, like, in a lab. whatever, but I'm telling you right now, the, the, if you look at like Jesus, for instance, right, like, Jesus really like, I mean, Jesus wasn't a religion, okay? Jesus basically said, love your neighbor as yourself. Well, to love yourself, you have to know who self is, or you only love the idea of self. So you have to know what yourself is, right? And then the kingdom of God, it's in you. Okay?

it's actually within you. And then like those leaders of the day is like, by the way, those dudes are liars and they're going to kill me. But, you know, whatever. So he was a cataclysm. He was a nuclear bomb dropped on culture of the day. Okay. So we think of cataclysm.

We think of meteorites or floods or earth fractures or whatever, solar flares. But a powerful idea that speaks to the core of who we all are as people is a cataclysm. and he was a cataclysm of the day. But his message was simple, right? You have to love what you have to love yourself. Well, you have to know who itself is, and you have to love yourself. Then you have to love your neighbor the same way, right?

And then the kingdom of God is, it's in you. It's in you. So you have to go within. And so what does he do? He goes up there and he doesn't have food or water for 40 days, right? And then, you know, they kill him. And then by the way, he comes walking through a wall. He's like, by the way, you never die.

Okay, thanks for the message, right? I mean, that's the message. Like, if you look at it through all about history, it's always the same. Know thyself. It's inscribed in the Oracle of Delhi. And every year we have a different saying at Heroes and Horses that's on the belt buckles that the guys get when they graduate,

this coveted belt buckle. And everyone they have a different saying, and this year is the saying is, know thyself. And, you know, one year we had think greater than you feel. you know we have all these other ones but know thyself and i think that's just kind of kind of stay there forever now i'm done making up slogans uh i i think like know thyself is a is a powerful thing right and so that is inscribed in gold at the oracle of delhi 1400 bc e it hasn't nothing has changed except for know thyself i'll caveat that or else other people that actually know what you are

will use you to create their own kingdom and enslave you. That's what it is. This is reminding me of, I don't know, we were doing a podcast a while ago and we got asked a question. It was like legit, I think it was legitimate dating advice. Someone was asking, or they got dumped or something like this. Oh, that's heartbreaking. And so I was saying, and I've given this answer a few times on the podcast,

hey, when you get dumped and you get broke up and you're all heartbroken, I try and explain that like, hey, the person that you were in love with that cheated on you or that, you know, ran away or whatever they did, the person that you were in love with actually didn't exist. They didn't exist. That girl that seemed so sweet, but then she cheated on you or whatever, you were in love with this idea of this person and now it's gone. You have to accept the fact that the person that you were in love with actually didn't exist

And it kind of is a good thing. You go, oh, wait a second. I'm all heartbroken. Now who am I going to marry? Now who am I going to spend the rest of my life with? Oh, no. Actually, the person that I thought I was going to marry and the person I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with didn't exist.

This girl was not a good person. And now I got to learn that. Now I can move forward. But what I'm relating this to what you're talking about is when people look at themselves and they got this idea of themselves that they're kind of maybe not in love with, but they at least like, yeah, you know, I'm this. I'm a fighter, I'm a soldier, I'm a Wall Street dude, or whatever you are. You have this idea of yourself like, hey, you know, I kind of love who I am.

And then there's something going on where you actually don't love that person. And because you know that that person that you're portraying doesn't actually exist. It's a projection. It's a projection. And so that's a rude awakening. And I think that can be a rude awakening when someone gets out of the military. and is all of a sudden saying, oh,

the person that I was, which was a soldier, a sailor, an airman or marine, that person, all of a sudden, they literally don't exist anymore. And you can try and hang on to it,

but it's got, it's, it's not going to be there. You don't, like you said, you don't have, your friends, you don't have a war,

you don't have a platoon anymore. You don't have a platoon anymore. It's, think about how heartbreaking it is when you don't have a platoon anymore. It's a freaking horror show. It's everything I love a seal platoon and all of a sudden you don't have a seal Patoon anymore. You don't have it doesn't exist anymore for you and so you can't you

have to figure out okay what what am I really and you got to dig in there and figure that out and you know I think for me again I was always like a rebellious kid growing up blah blah blah and I always was like questioning myself and I don't know I think when even when I was in the seal teams like there was I look at some leadership and be like, this guy's, whatever. This guy's not me, right? This guy's legitimately not me. Like, I know who my guys are and I don't know what we're like,

but that guy's, he's not really one of us. And there's a bunch of people that aren't really one of us. So I always kind of felt that. And it was okay when, okay, now I'm going to move on to my next job or whatever. I got out of the Navy, retired from the Navy. But, man, trying to figure out, trying to make sure that you know who you are, and make sure that who you are isn't a construct, I just use your word of the day, construct.

I normally don't use that word. That's an interesting word. I don't normally use that word. That construct that you built, it might not be for real. And if it's not for real, it's going to sting, it's going to sting. It's going to hurt.

But cool, now you know that. Now you can figure it out. Now you can get in there. Start doing work. Baseline. You got to hit the bottom of the bowl. you know where the projection doesn't protect you anymore listen you can you can you can dress up all day and put on the mma stuff or whatever and until you know you get freaking spun kicked in the side of your

head and then the projection doesn't work anymore right like and that's life we're all you know everybody's living some form of projection at some point in their life and you know the thing is is as those projections fade you become depressed and you become disenfranchised and and the thing is like you don't have to be if you have one job really you in your life is to wake up and just be yourself. And then you can't fail. It's impossible. Like, sure, it doesn't mean I do dumb shit.

I do dumb shit. I say things. I have second guess myself. Oh, shit, I don't call my wife. I should have never said that. She's like, honey. But then she's like, it doesn't matter because that's just how you are. Just be okay with that.

And so you just, if everybody just woke up and just where there's authentic self, the entire world would be a completely different place. Like, think about, like, think about filters. Think about a filter on a cell phone, right? You got some, like, lady where, like, you know, the Botox is failing, shit's going down. Probably was hot. Ex-husband's in Dallas, like, you know, but, you know,

she's kind of like this. She's kind of a little droopy. And then she puts the filter on. You're like, boom, right? In love with a projection of themselves, you know? It's like the worst thing is you see everybody sitting on the bus. and I'm sitting on the bus today and everyone's like you can see them over

they're like liking they're like and they're like this they're like L-O-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L like heart-L-L like happy smiley face right like they're the saddest looking people you know dudes like bellies are gross their mask is on crooked you know their hair is fucked up they got two cell phones L-O-L-L-L-L-L-L-L

right it's all a projection it's a total projection and so like we have to stop being projections and get back to the basics of who we are. But unfortunately, we put projections in these places where we try to be like somebody else rather than being ourselves. And that's destroying the fabric of humanity. And, you know, if you look at, you know, you look at Chinese culture, they're all simulated. Everyone's wearing the same clothes. Everyone's doing the same things. Everyone's serving the same

people. They're all born from Chinese mothers. They're all, you know, they all have this, they all have this plan in place, this 10,000 year destiny. Okay, what are we trying to do? We're trying to, like, you know, we're trying to make the rent, you know, we're trying to like, you know, we're trying to, like, you know, we're trying to, you know, we're trying to, you know, you look at these people. Well, I don't want that either. That is a nightmare. There is no individuality. Like, what do you exist? You exist to serve the state. Well, you exist here in North America to serve the projection. The projection. Oh, I'm going to go. Why? I'm going to buy the car so that when people see me, they'll think I'm successful.

Even though I work at In-N-Out, which I'm not, no dings on In-N-Out. Actually, props to In-N-Out's pretty good to go. Oh, yeah, by the way, didn't they just do some great stuff or something? They wouldn't do them in COVID-Vax or something? I don't know. Shout out to the In-N-Out. Good burgers.

But like, you know, or whatever. But, like, you'll see people will buy things and do things and extend themselves to a point to fulfill a projection. And it's so empty because there's never enough. there's always a new thing. There's always another thing. And so your whole life is giving me a projection. And that's why people are quintessentially lost.

They are literally have their self standing next to them in their life. And they're completely in the material realm. Everything is material for the five senses. There's nothing else beyond that. So in that case, I have to chase these projections down, get that one, get the next one, get the next one, so on and so forth. That's why like filters and all those things, like, there are, cancer because they they are nothing more than a project you don't look like that you don't

you're not that way like a crazy if you take a step back and think about this hey I got a when I send a picture to my friends I'm going to run it through a computer program that makes me look better like that's a crazy thing it's so crazy that's a crazy thing yeah because it because it drives it it's put us into all forms of chaos as a society, right? Like where I mean, you think about, you know, this whole thing on climate change, everything that's happening in the world is like, I think the debate is like, are we causing climate change or are we just destroying the environment, right? Well, we are 100% destroying the environment. And for what? So you can have like another table, another

mahogany table. Okay. Like, or more diamonds, you know, because I love. you and I want you to have this diamond that was mine by children in Africa and smuggled over here so that we can be together for a year and then you can take half of everything I have. But, you know, it's this whole bizarre thing where it's like we don't even care about anything except for enforcing our own projections. So it's like, hey, maybe we shouldn't like chop down every tree because maybe what I breathe out, the tree breeze in. With the tree breeze out, I breathe in. maybe we shouldn't be dumping the chemicals into the rivers. What is that?

Almost every river in North America now contains glycopate in it, right? So it's bleeding in from NPK from mass farming and agriculture. The soil's dying. I mean, I'm with ranchers. I'm in agriculture people. That's my life. And you listen to these old guys, kneel down and pick up the soil. It's dead, right?

And where's all this stuff going? Where's all these things going? what's happening around us is that people only care about their own projections and the very things that give them life they're destroying to further something that does only exist fictitiously as an idea and it's a scary time to be living in right now it's like you know here we are like Ukraine like Russia like look out like wow like they're coming they're going to get us ah like they're Russians and and it's like okay but you're really concerned about their borders, but like, what about like our borders? Like, aren't those important to? No, only the

ones in Ukraine, right? And it's, it's, you get sold these illusions and, and in turn, we destroy every single thing around us, including ourselves. And if we don't change, we are coming into an epoch. we're coming into a time, a real time, that we will become unrecognizable to ourselves. And when I see guys coming and they're on 11 medications, they're on 8 medications, they're been in therapy for 10 years and they're unrecognizable to themselves. They are unrecognizable. They look in the mirror. They don't know what they are.

They only exist as a projection of an identity. And, you know. Yeah, it's like, um. Sorry for the doom and gloom, y'all. Believe me. Listen to this podcast a little bit more. We got doom. We got plenty.

I mean, there is like a 1940s like a machete. Like I get. The weird thing is, is as you look at this stuff in a large scale, all these things are in place. And you know, when you just were saying that about vets, you're on a bunch of medications and you're being basically subdued. You know, you're being subdued. And it's not just vets. It's like humans.

Humans are being subdued. Look, we don't really actually want you to do anything. We don't actually want you to come up with your own ideas. We don't actually want you to write your own freaking books. We don't want you to create something. What we want you to do is continue to feed our machine that we've got working over here. That's what we want. We want to feed our machine and we don't want you to feed your own machine.

And that's like what is actually happening because people spend as, I don't know what the, what did you say, 37 years in front of a screen or whatever it was. You're not gaining when you're doing that. That's not, that's not for you. That's for them. That's so they can sell your, they can sell you to whoever their advertisers are so you can buy more of their stuff. That's what's happening. It's your energy. They need your energy.

See, everything is energy. They need you. And I say they, okay, like corporatocracies, governments, whatever it is, marketing companies, data capture people, whatever. You see, they need your attention. And your attention is your energy. And that is the impetus for them to grow. But if you're using your own energy to do your own thing, that's problematic. That's scary.

That's really scary. Scary for that. Right. It's terrible. And they can't have everybody running around. So they want you running around with a projection. You need all these things to help your projection. And it is, this is like almost cliche right now.

It's cliche for me to say what I'm about to say. There are psychologists and scientists and computer programmers or whatever they're called sitting, figuring out literal ways to make you look at the screen. to addict you to that. That's what they're actually doing. They're actually doing that. They're actually doing that. And by the way,

you're paying them to do it in many ways. You're actually giving them money to do this so that they can get you to not think for yourself. And I'm not saying like, oh, think for yourself, come up with some crazy. No, think for yourself. Like actually think about what's going on around you.

Instead, you're just receiving what someone else is telling you, which what they're telling you to do is waste more time looking at this and to buy whatever product it is that they're making. This is what's actually happening. Think about like what, have you ever heard of the Milgram experiments? Oh, yeah.

It's crazy, right? Yeah. What two thirds of the people killed the person because the guy on the white coat told them to, right? So it's already figured out. We already understand how to like corral human beings and to get them to give their attention and focus into developing what, whatever it is is vying for your attention needs you. It doesn't exist without you. I mean, our founding followers were pretty smart.

We the people, okay? You know, they understood that there's a power associated with the people, you know, the people united, the people, you know, believing in the goodness and the opportunity that was afforded by this nation. And instead, we have fractured ourselves among the most trivial things. And then given our energy, and then we complain about the very thing that we feed to build we complain about it when we are responsible for paying for the bricks, the prison keepers, the uniforms, everything.

And so turn your attention to something else. If you took that same time, you know, between 14 and 23 years watching TV in your life, let's just say take one year out of that. Maybe you get 22 years in Netflix in, all right? Take one of those years and just solely dedicate it to yourself. And if you do, well, you will regain. time because time is accelerating extremely fast and it's accelerating because because time is only realized by the experiences that are contained in it right so like like you know i've heard it said like

one million years with one event or or 10 minutes with 50,000 events every moment of our life is filled with with with an experience and so we realize time and time accelerates and we accelerate our own time and life. It's like at the end of the day, you're like, man, like you feel like you lived a lifetime because you realized every moment of that day and none of it was spent with you. None of it.

And so you feel disconnected, right? Well, don't worry. Take a vacation down to Disney. We're going to get you patched up. You know, have a couple margaritas, you know. Eat four meals a day. It's vacation. consume right and so this built in acceleration that's happening that we feel in the world right now

is cause because all of our energy is directed towards that and so I think that we can walk away and you know I've I've walked away you know I kind of started out when I first started this I didn't know with social me I had nothing I'm like okay I'm starting a foundation like I got to get an Instagram you know so I used to look back at like the Instagram I had and it was like I didn't I didn't even know what a hashtag was, you know, I was like, it, I was like, you know, it was like me like chopping wood, you know, I'm like, do work or something. I had the worst things. But then it kind of grew and I got to like almost 20,000 people and I was like sharing ideas. And then I, you know, throughout, you know, my experience of going through the program every season, because I'm out

there doing it, right? I'm not out there like standing there like, you know, I'm living it with the guys. I'm feeling it. I'm feeling the ice. I'm feeling the cold. I'm, you know, I'm hitting the ground. riding the Colts. I'm like at 10,000, 11,000 feet. I'm building the camp. I'm feeling every moment. I'm in the sweat lodge. I'm doing it. I'm not like this like kind of passive participant. I'm there. And then I just realize I have to walk away. Like I have to just do it. So I just, I just deleted it and I just walked away. And man, all these like anxieties and things. Like, what a way. You know, of course like my foundation has it and all those kind of things. And then like, I don't know, like a year later, I was like,

I'm going to start it off again. I got a message to share the world. And what do I start doing? Next thing I know, I'm sucking back in the hole. I'm in there and I'm doing this. And then I just stopped. I just delayed. I'm like, I'm done for the rest of my life.

I'm never doing that again. And it's like it's the battered wife's a drovito. It's like, that's what I had. And I look and listen, people can choose whatever they want to do or whatever. But I'm just saying for my life, I needed to realize that my energy you need to be directed at something else and that I wasn't being, you know, I wasn't fulfilling and maximizing my potential as a person because I was spending my time to start. And I was like, you know, consciously like, this is not a projection.

This is who I am. This is, but then of course, I'm like, I don't like that. I don't like that. Honey, get one other side shot here with the axe. I'm in the remote wilderness here. Photoshop. Right, right. Like Photoshop.

You know, just, you know, three bucks. You get the abs. It's no big deal. This is the freaking man. wilderness filter. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, so I, I'm trying to change.

Like I, I, we haven't bought meat from the store in four years. You know, I sold my beloved pickup truck to my good buddy, uh, team guy. And I bought a 66 foot by 17 foot wide geothermal greenhouse and an excavator and work in my land. And, you know, we have the ranch and, you know, training my horses and like, my kids, like, they don't have any tech. They don't have any screen on the iPad. I don't have any of those things.

Teaching them the real basic things. And I started realizing how much time I was actually spending, doing the things that I'm actually railing against, you know? And so little tiny changes, one step out of time, you know. So do you not have a vehicle? No, I have a vehicle. But no, I had this truck. I had this 75 Ford Highboy.

I put a 429 Cobra jet. and I suited all. It was sick, red, lifted. It was cool guy, like one mile of the gallon. And I started like a bird dyed, you know. It was like that kind of truck. And I loved it. And I always wanted that growing up as a kid, you know.

I mean, the Ford Highboy was cool when I was a kid. And but I sold that and I bought things. And I've really changed the relationships in my life. And even the things that I exposed myself to and the content and those kind of things, radical quiet time in the morning, you know, like, like, not just like working out and getting in my sound or whatever, but like, like, learning to just sit there and be still and thoughtless. And then like, you know, get to the place where I can do that for 40 minutes without a thought and just breathe, nothing.

And then all of a sudden, I have all these realizations about things. I don't know where they come from. I do know where they come from, right? You get plugged in. that energy is real and you get plugged into it and that's what guys find listen there's days in the backcountry where it's like everyone's kind of chatty and then there'll be like days where you're on a horse and it's like nobody says a word and it's just like man you can like it's amazing everyone's real talking about the first like 12 minutes of a forced road march you know with a

rucksack like yeah this is going to smile blah blah blah blah and then like 30 minutes in dead silence for the next four hours as you just all out you're trapped in there in your own little brain do you think that you were uh do you think that you made the seal teams or seal teams made you probably a little bit of both well yes a little bit of both um i can i can tell you like from my experience of like going through buds i was never going to quit i never thought about quitting i was just like i was so stoked and happy like this is what we're doing this is what i'm doing uh it took me a while to figure out Like I wanted to be a good seal.

You know, that's what I wanted to be. Once I got in the teams, I wanted to be a good seal. And it took me a while to figure out what that actually was. And I don't think I really figured it out until probably about five years after I retired. And I would still be mild of them, but I'm still working on it right now. But, you know, there was different things that I did along the way where it seemed like the team guy thing to do.

And then as I got older and figured out, oh, yeah, that wasn't really exactly a good team guy thing to do. Now there's some core tenants. that never changed and I think the ultimate one is like if you're a good team guy you put your team in front of yourself and that seemed clear to me from day one and I think that that is the ultimate sort of the ultimate quality of a good team guys like oh that guy he will do he he will he's going to put you ahead of him and if you have a platoon full of guys and they're all putting each other ahead of themselves like that's a freaking kick-ass platoon so

I kind of knew that or I kind of felt that way like even with the friends I had growing up It was sort of that same mentality about not being selfish and not putting yourself like not looking out for yourself And and so when I got in the teams that core belief was probably It was probably in existence when I got when I was when I got in the teams of like hey you don't put yourself of ahead of your friends I think That's what I was kind of that's what me and my friends were like when I was a kid and I think that was that core tenant was there so did it get honed hell yeah it got honed but I'd say it was kind of there man

yeah it's like something I feel like when I showed up at buds it was like I felt really inferior to everybody like in the sense that everyone had was like ripped and like they were like all like you know played football and everybody was like sports after athletes and everyone there and I just felt so inferior. I had like this shitty tattoo. Like everyone made fun of, well, not my classmates,

but all the instructors. What was the shitty tattoo? I have, I still have it. I have like a transformer tattoo. But it's just like a shitty outline that was done by a friend of mine like on this arm. And, uh,

whatever. But like I got this thing and they used to say, Fank, get up here and show everyone your stupid tattoo. And then I have to get up on the truck. and then they would be like, everyone laugh. And, of course, everyone, you know, everyone would laugh. And then they would come down.

And I remember we had this one chief, my instructor, I'll never forget. He was like, he was the one that was constantly calling me out. He's like, get up here and show everyone your stupid tattoo. And I was like, whatever. So I'd like, go up there and show him the tattoo. Everyone would do the laugh and then we'd take off on the run, you know, kind of the thing. And then one day he's up there. And I was like, he's like, you know, if I had that tattoo like that, I think I would just kill myself.

and I was like, well, if I had legs like yours, I would kill myself. Oh, damn. And everybody was like, and then everybody laughed for real. So I proceeded to eat a mouthful of sand, and I did the run. Every time I lost the sand, because I would slowly do a little, like, I would stop it. I'd have to refill. Refill. I would refill, and I'd put the sand in and I'd run.

But all these instructors came up to me, and they were like, we got props for you. We know that, like, really suck. They all gave props, you know? But I just kind of like going through that, like I did have that belief in myself. Like I had a belief in myself. And I would look at that. The instructor is not in a sense of like they're out to get me, but that like if they could be on the other side of this experience,

then I could be too. That's all I ever thought about was like, if he can do it, I can do it. You know, it's like that was that movie, The Edge or whatever with Anthony Hopkins. and who's the dude that just shot the guy. Oh, Alec Baldwin. He just shot a guy. A female, actually. He did.

Yeah, he was a female. Yeah, that's right. And yeah, but remember he did that movie The Edge? Yeah, it was a wilderness movie, right? And he's like, what one man can do, another man can do. Like, and I kind of like, I mean, I wouldn't say I was like thinking about that movie. But, like, in my own way, I thought like, man, if somebody else can be standing there with that shirt on, I could be standing there with that shirt on.

shirt on, you know. I think pressure, I think those experiences just to reveal who we really are. And I think that everybody could make it if they had the ability to look in at that, you know, that fire in the gut or whatever. But too often not, it's too enticing to ring out. I was not great at anything, right? I wasn't the fastest runner. I wasn't the fastest swimmer. I guess like you, I wasn't like a great athlete. I was like a maybe slightly below average athlete in high school. And then even I got. to the teams. It was like I was never going to win anything. So I always felt like I had to work harder and to be a good team guy.

And the quitting thing is crazy, actually. When you look at the things that happened with people, like incredible athletes. Like I was literally a below average athlete and I was young, you know, so like even if, if you went to college, you're more just developed. I mean, the difference between an 18 year old and a 22 year old is a big. freaking difference but you know I I had college athletes D1 college athletes had an Olympic alternate for gymnastics which is crazy quit wrestler D1 wrestler quit wrestler really you think I think so I think so I'm actually I want my one of

swim buddies rang out in like the after hell week in dive phase we're doing something in the pool and I'm I think we're doing buddy breathing in the pool yeah and so I'm passing him my regulator and I'm taking two breasts and he's taking nine and this dude was from like Iowa or something he's never been in the ocean before and he was super pale so he was just sunburnt he looked bright red like the entire time and and and so I'm doing you know taking whatever two breasts given him he's taking nine and finally he just stands up we're in four feet of water in the pool He just stands up and he goes to the surface and I'm like down there and I think, well, okay. So I stand up and he's just calling out.

Like, hey, I quit. I'm out of here. This is, I'm not doing this. After hell week. Wow. So that water thing can get a little bit crazy on some people. Yeah. The water thing is legit.

You know, I've had some. So, I mean, I was drowned in Afghanistan. And yeah, I had like some. How'd that happen? I had some crossing a river. and the rope that I was attached to got wrapped around a rock and I really know how much I can say about because of the nature of where we were and all those things. Well, you're in a river.

I was in a river, yeah. And so basically had gone down there once, checked it out. It was much more intense than anticipated, you know, and I had this idea about this water up and all this kind of thing. So I began studying it and there was a really, there was a mission that we needed to get done that had not been. successful previously and I was in this this this this this base with some guys and it's kind of like really amped up on this you know first water op all the things so go down there the second time with like a hundred meters of one inch tubular nylon all tied together in a alice pack and the plan was that

I would go upstream and offset and then swim down to the other side then pull the equipment set off a hoist system so that you know we could zip line all this stuff and get everybody across safely Sounds good. So it was like a, you know, class four rapids way, way north. And so it starts off. I'm down there. I got my boots on. I got my stuff.

This is my second time. And I've been watching this thing, drone footage, all the things I've been observing this for a long time. I understood the flow of the river. And there was a dog leg, which was like the point of no return. Like if you went there, there was a huge cave. And I would watch on the footage like logs, like trees go in there. And like days later would be like, bloop, like would come out.

So I knew if I went in there that I wouldn't live. And so I go down there and I start going like upstream. So now this is that you're executing the mission. Well, I'm doing the- Are you doing a recon? I'm basically doing a recon to see a proof of concept. And so we're down there. We got guys set up security the whole deal.

I'm down there. I'm like really nervous. I'm like, whoa, this is like, I'm like in shorts. And like, you know, this is like really a wild place. and there's huge cliffs, so there's only kind of one way in this wadi to the river. So I kind of start going up, well, I end up getting like sucked into a cave that I couldn't see. It would just look like a dark spot on the aerial. And they like let all the rope go.

The rope gets all tangled up around me. I'm like a cat grabbing on the sides. Like I can't grab on anything. So I end up making to the beach. Now I can't get back. There's no way to get back unless I do that again. I'm not going in that cave. Nobody has any idea.

It's like one o'clock in the morning. So finally I go up and I get the rope and I get it taught and I'm on the beach and I'm like, I sit down and I have a rigors belt on with a carabiner, my boots, fins and no shirt and a pair of shorts and a speedo underneath. Because I have to contain that thing. Just kidding. So that's a lot. See, it's a projection. And so anyway, I'm like, so I'm sitting there and I can tell.

tell you i honestly felt like a lot of fear i felt afraid because like the waves were so big it was like so i'm like okay okay okay like just like just fucking michael phelps that like you can do it and like so i get into the water and i start like swimming as hard as i can and i was unprepared for the violence of that water it literally swept me away and as i'm like flying down i'm like i kind of get almost to where the dog leg is to get to the other side. And so everybody's like in this wadi. There's guys up here on this mountain, these two mountains. And this is all like cliffs.

And it's kind of not cliffy on the other side. And, you know, that was the plan. So as it's like turning like this, I kind of get to here and there's a boulder in the center. And the rope goes right around the boulder, which just they're holding an anchor. And I just become like a flapping parachute. And it just sucks me underneath. And my feet go underneath the boulder. And I had a UDT life vest on, so I pulled a little thing, which I've never done in my whole

training. And I was like, and it just ripped right off. It was like a toy. It was like, and my shoes are gone. Everything's gone. Finn's gone. Shorts are gone. I'm in my speedo.

All this is happening very quick. And I realize like I'm drowning. And I try to unhook the carabiner. I physically can't. I'm not strong enough. And I'm no like crane puff. Like I couldn't physically. the current was so strong and I'm trapped.

You couldn't move the rope one and a half inches to get it out of that. And it was a stupid little black issue like locking carabiner, you know, where I got to twist the thing a half turn. And I'm like, and I started like really, I started drowning. And I started seeing like, you know, these kind of like, I guess like you would say a hallucination or whatever. I started like seeing all kinds of crazy images. And I started feeling like I'm going out unconscious. Like this is like the end. I remember saying like, please God, don't let me like.

in Afghanistan. And then meanwhile, these guys are like, everyone's piling down off the hill, like, thinking I'm, like, dead. They saw me, like, zip by. And so they're heave hoeing. And they're, like, heave hoeing, heave hoeing, there's a lot of rope. So they end up, like, heave hoeing the rope off the rock. And, like, I write when I'm, like, about to totally just drown.

And I remember the saying in buds, dry drowning is better than wet drowning. Dry drowning is better. I mean, don't breathe in because you can be resuscitated. But if you suck in your toast, like, all that water is going to go in your lungs. You know, being a medic, like, too. And I just kept saying dry drowning is better than wet churning. And I just refused to breathe in.

And then all of a sudden I, like, pop up into the foam. And I remember, like, gagging in and sucking all this foam. And I'm like, ugh. And I just start washing down the river again. I'm just hitting rocks. I'm, like, doing cartwheels. I don't know which way is up. And I'm, like, screaming help, like, to nobody.

And I'm like, help. like and I remember I'm like breathing in foam and I and I get to the other side which they could not access me because of the terrain and I get to their side and I'm like I'm on land and I start like crawling you know super fast to get up on short and then they just start dragging me on my face right they're like he oh like and and I'm like getting dragged back into the river and so I get against this boulder there's a lot of slack in the line I do kind of like a squat like and I pop the beaner off and apparently everybody like fell down and they pull it back and they're like he's alive. They thought I was dead.

They thought I had drowned. So now I'm like in my speedo with no shoes on or anything in real bad guy land. And there's like people with like lights collecting driftwood. There's like and so I'm like I crawl underneath this like outcropping and I cover myself in mud because I saw it on Predator. And I mean that's really what I did. I remember, you know, like that scene, you know. Yeah. And so I cover myself in mud and I just lay there to like almost like probably an hour before first light.

And I'm like thinking, I'm going to be the first seal to ever be captured. Like, and I was like, oh, like, fuck that. And I'm like, and I got like sticks and like rocks like piled up. And I'm just like freezing. Like one of the coldest moments I've ever been in my life. What was the water temp? What time of year was it? It was August.

Okay. But it was cold. Yep. Super cold. And we were pretty damn close to as far north as you could go. And so I'm, uh, I'm like laying there. And then I see like some nods, like lights and the guys had made it around come down there, are scanning the shore.

And I like popped out. I'm like, here's like mud dude with like, you know, cool guy. No, with like, his feeto on, no shoes. Well, I had no shoes. So like they have my bag. We got to get out of here now. So I'm like, you know, we're hugging. Like I thought you were dead.

We're doing that whole thing. So I get my clothes on. I have no shoes on. And to tell the truth, I don't remember walking back. I think I just like blacked out or something like because I was so cold and I had my shoes on. And I was so, you know, I got my gun, got all my stuff, got everything. We go back, we get the base. One of the guys there, one of the OGA guys.

Son's a team guy. He runs one of the branches now. So sons up, we get back and he was there. And he's like. he's like in tears he's like you want to have a drink so we go up we go on the skiff and he's like I thought you're dead and I was like why did we do this like this was terrible like we should have never done this like blah blah blah so he gives me a drink we have a drink and I go back in my room I'm like that was like whoa so back to like opin it up whatever

move on well my team leader comes to me like a week later and he's like hey brother you think you could do that again and I'm like I'm like sure definitely like go to my room I'm like I'm so scared I don't want to do that like that was the worst experience my whole life like I but of course I'm like yeah I mean definitely brother like for sure like so I started like watching like all these YouTube videos and I started like river crossings all this kind of stuff I'm like okay like and so I order all this equipment from the PJs and all this stuff comes up I got throwbacks rescue stuff I'm like inflatable is pro techs the whole deal long story sure I go back down there to prove the concept and there

there's people down there so we bagged ass kanked it we never want to burn the air now everyone's hearing about this like water mission going down and the night we were supposed to go and execute we never did do it and two hours before we left i was switched out with josh harris who drowned and died and i was right next to them yeah so there's a lot of little details in there i'll leave out but it was uh it was a bad deal yeah and uh you know that experience had to of impact on me for sure. And so when I did the Iron Man in 2012, one of the reasons why I did the Iron Man was because as a free diver, I got into serious free diving, like serious. I'm Venezuela, Mexico, I know all over the world. That's why you were in the teams you were doing that?

When I was contracting. But I started free diving in the teams. Matter of fact, I came up with this whole thing called Spear fishing PT because we had surf PT. And I was like, that's not fair. It's discriminating. Like we should have spearfishing PT. which was the greatest thing because we never got back to work on time. There was always some kind of issue. And so we got the day off, basically. I know that only lasted for like three weeks.

But yeah, so I had to develop, even diving around the world, like, I mean, I was going to very deep desk, you know, 110 feet, like killing, you know, tuna and Panama. And I spent, you know, three weeks in Venezuela diving. I always had this wreck playing in my head of what had happened

when I would get in situations. I got my arm caught in Venezuela, underneath a rock at 80 feet. And the next thing I know, it's like in my head, like, I'm in Afghanistan, I'm drowning. Like, it was crazy. I'm like,

I got to kick this thing. So I ended up, like, signing up for the Iron Man because I heard, like, the swim is the most terrifying thing in the world, which it was. No kidding. Yeah, I had like a panic. That's a bold statement coming from that freaking Afghanistan story.

Holy shit. You want a bunch of, like, middle-aged men and women that are like, you know, hate their lives and trying to find themselves. Like, you don't want to be in the water with them because they're vicious. And, but anyway, like, I'm out there and I'll never forget it. Like, I'm a fast swimmer. I was, like, finished, I think 112 on the swim in Iron Man, which is really good, 2.4 miles.

And I'm out there. And I started too far in advance for my skill. And then people started swimming over top of me like I was just a random buoy. I mean, they literally just kicked me in the face and just, there was 24. 400 people just like swimming and I couldn't catch my breath and I got kicked in the face my goggles got kicked off and I had like I'm like guys like guys look out like the paddleboard's like you need help you know like it race is over like I can't breathe I can't breathe and I'm like oh my god I'm back and I remember this guy was like I'll never forget it he looks at me he's in a panic like me

and I'm like not panicking panicking but I'm just like I can't catch my breath because every time I try to breathe I'd get some like you know 45 year old lady's foot toe up my nose and And so he grabs onto me, and he's holding on to me, and I'm at this buoy. And I remember he's pushing me down. He's like, oh, I get him. And the paddleboards are trying to get in. And I'm like in this mix.

And I remember I just looked at him, and I was just like, in that moment I, like, faced it. And this dude was, like, pulling me down. And I just, like, grabbed him by his, like, rubber cap. And I punched him between the shoulder blades as hard as I could. And he was just like, this. Like, it was like, like, electric shock, like hit him. And I was like, ah, I just like, ah.

And I just started. like swimming and I my wife has this great shot of me coming out I look like I look like I have like PTSD when I'm coming out of water like my have like bags under my eyes I got news for you you did yeah and I came out of the water and I was like I was like totally terrified and uh but I never had another bout with that ever again and uh it was a moment where I was like I knew I had like I had like finally like face that thing down which was like playing in the back of my head it was really weird when I would get into water situations where I'd be in drowning, which happened a lot, like in free dive spearfishing, you know. And so I never had another, another had another issue again.

So it was a, it was a moment of my life that I will never forget as long as I live. We go offline, I'll tell you some more details. Yeah. And then what do you got going on right now, like with the beef, the ranch, the cows? like you're full on just going for it. Yeah. I mean, I just, I mean,

Michael is, so we just purchased this ranch. We got a capital campaign going on. We've raised some money. Building a human development center there. So which will be, it's a 10 person coal plunge, a 10 person sauna,

a gym in the center, and then a meditation room that's soundproof. And then it vibrates at 528, the megahertz of the earth. So it's very good grounding. And, when something's vibrating. 525 megahertz.

Do you hear it? Do you feel it or it's... No, it's the earth. It's the earth. So like if you ever, if you know, I always tell people like, if you're having like anxiety

or something like that, like or you're just like, you know, sometimes you get that kind of like raciness or you feel like you got to like down regulate a little bit. Like the best thing you can go out is go outside,

take your shoes off, stand in the ground, be in total silence and stand there and it usually goes away within like three to four minutes and I just breathe. It's very grounding. It grounds you.

And so, you know, frequencies are super important. So we actually do sound with the guys. And last year the guy said it was our first year doing it. Almost every guy said it was the most profound experience of their life. We have somebody that comes in and brings those sound bowls and they bring up the resonance outside on the ranch, like deep where the sweat lodge is, and it just vibrates it. And they do these bowls.

And it's like, some people, it's so intense, they vomit from it. So wait, you sit. You lay there. And these are big bowls. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, they're bowls. and they stir them and they each bowl produces a frequency

and they can bring you up to the resonance which ground it grounds you and so um you know obviously like everything is frequency and everything is is like how are you looking at somebody on their iPhone like how am I talking to you or how am I vibrating right now

and you are somehow interpreting what I'm saying to your brain I'm literally vibrating to you and somehow you're like yeah let's go do something right go over here like And so, you know, that's, that sound therapy is something that, uh, it works. It's very, very powerful. Uh, if you, if you've, if you never try to, there's probably places here go, go to a sound bath. They have all these bowls, all these things.

They'll bring you in there. And because your whole life is inundated with blue light and frequencies and, and Wi-Fi signals and all those kind of things. So what you're doing is you're reestablishing a baseline. Um, so, so, so, yeah, so the ranch, we're building the human development center. We've got an arena going up, a 100 by 200 indoor arena. we can expand kind of into the winter time. And then the guys live in non-electric wood cabins with outdoor showers and an outhouse.

Total minimalist. So you say the guys? The students. The students that are going through. Yep. Are going through. So they live in like little lodgepole cabins that we're building that are just little bunks, a little wood stove, and an outdoor shower and an outhouse, a double outhouse.

You're going to get some of that. Yeah, get some of that. Yeah. As a matter of fact, this year when we put the double house out, we forgot. to put the little blanket in the center. And three days later, the guy was like, hey, do you have like a blanket or something? And I was like, oh, I'm sorry until they forgot about that. But they were using it, which is disturbing.

That's one of those things. That's one of the, like, starkest memories I have from Navy boot camp was that there's no stalls in the shitters. And you were just literally sitting down and there was someone sitting next to you, you know, a foot away taking a shit next to you. It's just the removal of whatever. It's kind of the removal of all privacy is gone. It's gone.

Yeah, it's 100% off. We own you. Yeah. Poop next to that guy. That's how much we own you. Moving that hole next to that other dude never met before. And by the way, there's another dude on the other side of you.

That's also shitty. So that's good times. So you're building this. So this is going to up our capacity to take more students and do more. Yeah, because right now, I mean, the guys are living in wall tents. And everything's out, all the outdoor showers, all that kind of stuff. The ranch we bought has basically a tiny little cabin on it that, you know, Abraham Lincoln's contractor built and two pivots, you know, and a small shop that had no well

or anything. So we popped in a well. We've done all this stuff. And so now we're raising money to to build that out and to expand the program to year round. And, you know, my goal is not to have some big giant program. Like I think that is the problem is that everybody thinks there's like one institution that can do it all. And my idea is to kind of get to a sweet spot with guys. And then, you know, we're capturing data and then to go and to get other organizations to up-level themselves and to begin to really start thinking about, like, human development and bringing forth change, rather than, like, me saying, like, I can do it all and I can build this huge thing. And I want to network with people and have them scale up.

And that people that are really serious about human development. And I think that will, I think we'll look back and this will be a hub of, you know, it would be a place where a spark formed. and when people start looking at things different, because the guys that graduate this program, you know, it's a, they're, they're different, they're changed. You know what I mean? And so I think that everybody deserves that opportunity,

but I can't do it all. And I think that other people, like I said, there's 50,000 nonprofits in North America, you know. We spent $92 billion since 2012 in the end of 2020, and it's gotten worse. you know and I'm sorry and a lot of people like you know they hate me because I say you know you got organizations they got Shetland ponies that you can take and they put sneakers on them and you walk them around town like my message is you know fuck you like that is that doesn't that doesn't

do anything like it takes time and it takes commitment and maybe that's not for everybody and you'll have to walk your own path but I think that as all these existing institutions. Maybe I can find 10. Maybe I can find 10 that are focused on human development. Maybe it's saying like, hey, think about the change of a guy. You take a guy, he's 75 pounds overweight. He's unmed, he's like, but he wants to change and he's got the fire. And you put him in a 10 week fight camp, right? And then think about who that guy would be at the end of 10 weeks, right? Nutrition, diet, focus, meditation, ice baths, like working out, purpose, like feeling good, strong, like getting balanced, all those things. Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

Simple, but it's it's it takes effort and it takes work. And so my my goal is to is to start a new conversation and bringing people together about what it you know about restoring You know these guys back to the dignity of who they are. It's crazy like the shit's not going to be easy if you're going to reset your life and dig in and find out who you are that's not going to that's not going to be easy. I'm not going to be easy. I'm going to reset your life and dig in and find out who you are. That's not going to that's not going to be easy. I'm easy evolution. There's no donuts. Like, yeah, it's like, mm. Yeah. And it's crazy.

You know, that opening that I read from you was like, literally, there are some people that are literally trying to give you a magic pill that's going to do all this work for you, like, which is a crazy thing. It's crazy.

It's insane. Like when you think about it. But the thing is, we already know the secret sauce, right? That's why, you know, the business people are like,

hmm, let's create something called obstacle course races. Right? Like, you literally, climb over a log, flop into the mud, then some roided out, dude, hits you in the head with a foam bat, and then you get like a medal,

and then the next day in the office, everyone's like, whoa, what's different about him? He faced an obstacle gym, and he overcame, right? I mean, that is the essence. Obstacle course races, like, I mean, we, so set that challenge in front of yourself. I think we can, like, unite together, do different. For me, like, I never thought, you know, we bought a ranch for three million bucks.

I met this guy. He was delivering hay. I started talking to me. He goes, oh, my dad might be selling his ranch. You should meet him. Are you looking for a ranch? I'm like, sure. Yeah, definitely.

We worked seven years with no ranch. Leased everything set it up. Every year, mobile gypsy camp. It was a living hell. Imagine 70 horses, not owning one 16th of an acre. It was a nightmare. And most people never saw that. And so here I am like going to this guy's place.

I sit down a cup of coffee, a big business guy. I sit down. I'm like, he's like, so he interested. interested in the ranch? I'm like, yeah. He's like, well, do you have any money? And I'm like, no. And he's like, thanks for coming. Like basically it was like really nice, but then never talked to me again. So then like a year later, he calls me up. He's like, I'm definitely going

to sell the ranch. Are you interested? And I was like, absolutely. So I ride down there my motorcycle and I'm like, I sit down with him. He pours me a cup of coffee. He goes, do you have any money? And I'm like, no, but I'm going to get it. Because it was like the jerk store with like, you know, with George Costanza, you know. I was like, thought of this, this comeback, like the whole year. And he's like, well, I said, I'll give you my word, give me an opportunity, and I'll get it. And I didn't have any of that kind of resources. So we ended up getting a loan.

What year was that? That was last year. So you got a loan against a charity? Yeah, yeah, we got a loan on the ranch. And so, and I raised a million five from various donors and put the, you know, down payment or whatever, took a loan out. And, you know, we just launched a four-year capital campaign to build a ranch out. So, seven point five million bucks over four years.

And then, you know, the funny thing is about nonprofits is that I don't own it. I'm basically, even though I'm the founder, I'm just an employee. I'll never have those assets. Like if the whole thing dissolved tomorrow goes to either the state or to another nonprofit. And so, you know, I exist in this solely for the development and betterment of my fellow man. And I think that, you know, whether it's a veteran or it's a stay-at-home mom or somebody recovering from getting ran over by a dump truck or whatever it is, I think that people are going to once again begin looking to partake in that hero's journey and that journey of self-discovery to get out of the places that they're currently in. And so that's my goal. And we're capturing data.

We're working with the university to get results and stuff like that so that I can go to other nonprofits and sit down. down with that person and say, listen, I know you give $5,000 to critically injure soldiers. I also know that you have $290 million in the bank because your financials are public and online as a nonprofit. Maybe you could run a program that actually does something for people beyond, you know, getting on their kids' iPads. Maybe we can do something to embed mankind. You know, maybe we can do something to level up, you know, society, our society, our community in a way and stop giving handouts and start, you know, giving handups. You know, I think that handouts are a total failure.

I think, yeah, of course, people have things and stuff like that, you know, critical things. But like for the most part, like you have to own it. You have to earn it and you have to own it. And I think we get an opportunity business and we get out of the handout business. Oh, you served? Come on and float in a tube. And we have a massage therapist online. Like, thank you for your Air Force time.

Oh, here's a filet mignon and a carrot and a raspberry. Like, you know, and a jacket and some fishing gear, even though you live in Detroit and you live in a one-bedroom apartment and you live below the poverty line like most veterans do. And maybe I'm going to give you an opportunity to change your own life, but you're going to have to do the work. And we get back in the opportunity business. That's what I want to see happen.

And then hopefully, you know, when the meteorite hits the world and dinosaurs come back or everything like that, it'll be like a plaque somewhere. I was like, he tried to do good. But it was futile. They destroyed themselves. Aren't you trying to do something with beef too? Yeah. What's going on with that? Yeah.

So the beef model is kind of like, so I talked about this social hybrid is this non-profits are in this perpetual starvation. cycle, right? Where you're beholden to the donors where, you know, you have to raise money and then, you know, you're constantly in this state of having to raise money because you can't generate money because you're a non-profit. I didn't know that by the name when I started. I'm like, why am I so broke? And then like five years later, I'm like, wait a second, non-profit? Damn it. So, but I was like, we have this ranch. We know, we're going to start a cattle company, farm to table, you know, and I think that like the care of the animal from the moment it's born, living and dying on the ranch, treating the animal with respect, you know, if you've ever

been to mass agriculture and you saw what it's really about, it's one of the most disturbing things that you've ever seen in your life. And if you've ever been to a slaughterhouse or a packing plan where they're doing a thousand head a day, you know, they're picking them up with skidsteers, and terrified adrenaline hormones. It is very, it's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not good. And I think that carries over to the food. And so like, you know, raising that animal, honoring that animal, letting them graze, letting them live, letting them be out there, letting them live their lives, sustainably harvesting them, teaching people how to do that, you know, integrating that, and then selling that beef to donors that can then, in turn, support the program so that the ranch

stands on its own two legs. So it's a social hybrid. It won't exist to make money, but it will exist to sustain, you know, the program. Then also expose people to that animal husbandry and to that ranching side of the house and then also, you know, down in line with the beef. I think like to me, food, like where your food comes from is so important and it's so critical to the wellness of the individual. You can't expect to be happy if you're eating, you know, cheese it's and garbage and all those kinds. It all is tied together.

Your body is the subconscious mind and even down to the food that you eat. And, you know, what I started getting exposed to this world and I started seeing things, I was like, man, this is like rough. like when you really see what's happening put to the animals and those kind of things and listen I'm not like you know out there like you know whatever like an activist or anything like that but I'm like there's a better way like the natives did it right you know they harvested they took what they wanted they used every component of the end think about the waste that we have they only take the best cuts everything's dog food or this or that or like and so for me it's like butchering the whole

animal using the bones to create bone bra taking the hides and and making boxing gloves and American-made boxing gloves with the highs and, like, taking all the fat, taking all those things, taking the bones, making biochar out of them, right? So, like, using that as an organic fertilizer that we could use on the ranch and we could give away and share with other people, like using the whole animal and teaching guys those things. Because when they become connected to their food, they start to understand the system that they're a part of. You know, I tell people, the whole world is, like, your life is held together by a wire. okay a wire so like if the wire breaks meaning like the power goes out millions will die within weeks

from a wire like oh i'll hunt you're not gonna hunt you're not gonna make it out of your high rise you're gonna be in a 25 million dollar tomb okay the water comes out what are you gonna do it's over a cable a cable breaks the internet goes out and millions die and i think that so So many guys like come and they realize and they change their whole lives because they start to realize the role that we pay in the system and how, you know, how everything is now handed to you and you take for granted all those aspects. And so my goal is to stand up that system and that human development program and then begin to get other people to do the same thing. And I want to expand a community, you know, and that's my goal. So that's what's going on with the beef. And just to, I mean, I talk a lot, well, not a lot.

I talk about China. China. Yeah. China. And, you know, we saw a lot of this during COVID. Like, where are we dependent on? But we're dependent on China for food. And a lot of people don't recognize that.

China, let me, China. China is coming for us. I tell people, I'm like, if you look at Mao during the Chinese industrial revolution, the Great Leap Forward. Mao knew that he needed nuclear technology. There's been five emperors in China. Emperors, that's what I'll call them, dictators, whatever, leaders, great ones, whatever, dragon lords. So like, micro-crashion.

And so, but if you look at what they did, he understood that they needed nuclear technology. So what did he do? He traded food to the Russians in exchange for nuclear technology, starved his own people. 30 million people died during peacetime and he got the nuclear weapon. They have a 5,000 year plan. They understand that by enslaving their own people for cheap labor, because Americans exist for consumption, I want it now and I want it cheap. And it's like my house, I go in there, how many, how much shit do I need, right?

It's, ah, it's cheap. It's only three bucks, another potato peeler. you never know. So, so, so, so, so, so, how many potato peelers did you actually have in the house? Okay. I did have five. That's a lot. I did have, I kept two.

Shout out to Quezon Art. But I, uh, I was like, if you look at them, they're smart because what they did is, they understood the American psychology. They understand that Americans are overconfident because from childhood, they're told, you're the best, you're good. You get praise for things you never deserved. They're, they're entitled and lazy. Chinese are the opposite, right?

So they're like marching forward to their 5,000-year destiny. And so what are we do? We outsource everything to them for super cheap goods, and in turn handcuff ourselves to them, right? Including our medications. The world's most critical medications are made in China. And so, you know, China is on the move, and their military is now expeditionary.

They're providing aid to foreign countries. They've got their jets, and let me take hypersonic missiles. And let me tell you something. They're not over here like trying to pass the PT test. Okay. Oh, I didn't, you know, got to go to FEP because I didn't make it. By the way, my rights matter. You don't tow the line in the Chinese army.

You wind up as biochar, okay? They don't, no need for you. And Xi Jinping said that, you know, if we try to stand against the Chinese, this was two months ago in a live speech. He stood on their show of force and he said, you will meet a great wall of steel made by $1.8 billion. million Chinese that are unified. What are we over here? Like, don't go over here. Like, I don't like you. Like, so they banned all girly men on TV. There is no boy bans allowed. Social media turns

off at 10 o'clock at night. And what are they preparing for to be a world leader? And who are they in locks up with? The Russians, right? And because they see the United States dwindling. Because consumption, consumerism, entitlement, overconfidence, and this desire to tell people what's right and wrong. You know, like we have these things. And then what happened in Afghanistan, right? We're no longer a force for good. We better rethink because this enemy is not like an Afghani running around in pajamas.

These dudes are probably genetically modified. Who knows what they're going to do? They might unzip their fake Chinese bodies and come out and just be like, Who knows, right? They are genetically modifying super soldiers. Forbes just, or was it at a time or whatever, just had a thing on them. So we are facing a time right now where this entitlement and all these things that we have are coming home to roost on us.

And, you know, buyer beware. Because if the cable breaks, if the earth even burps, okay, if it just rumbles in the wrong place and the power goes out for, say, two months, millions, upon there won't be enough excavators to dig the holes for the bodies that will burn. People can say, oh no, but it's the truth. Think about it. If you're living in a $25 million high rise on the 98th floor and the power goes out, where do you get your next sandwich from?

By time you make it down, every store will be gone, all the food will be gone, there will be no water, your well pumps won't work. Just think about it. Life is held together by a cable. And we never think that that cable is going to ever break. And you know who's holding part of that cable? Network is China. And I don't think that China would have picked a fight with us,

but I think we've picked a fight with them. And because here we are just bloating, bloating, bloating, bloating, bloating, bloating, bloating, and they're refining, refining, refining, refining, refining, refining. So, I mean, if Putin invades Ukraine, I bet you see China China go after Taiwan simultaneously. I wouldn't be surprised. And they could launch hypersonic missiles

and vaporize our fleet in two seconds. And then it's either go nuclear or stand down. I think, I don't know what's today, just for reference, today is the 24th of January. Nice. I think that Putin's going in.

I think Ukraine's, I think it's on. And I think what he's doing, he's looking at Biden, who's compromised. And he, he, is I it breaks it breaks my heart and Russia as a bone to pick because think about it we Eisenhower screwed them over because we're supposed to pay them all that money and we never did and then we chased them over to right over to Afghanistan what you know

caused problems over there whooped on them over there did the cold war rip the walls down crushed your economy did all these things right and now we're telling them oh you can't go across those borders and they're just like meanwhile The Russians are over there like every guy is like Kabib. Yeah. He's like, kill, kill, kill, kill. Our guys are over here like stand down. People are being mean.

They're going to call us back up. Not all Americans are like that. There's definitely too many that. I mean, there's definitely plenty of Americans. I work with a lot of young military folks. And man, they are. Yeah. There's kids ready to rock and roll.

But I don't know if the country is. If the country is willing to sacrifice. like in those situations. Our guts are ripped out. I mean, think about a 20-year war. You think about like the United States, there was a USA article last year. It's worth checking out,

even though they're kind of like whatever. But like they have an article with a moving map on it called the cost of war. If you go, if you look it up or duct to go or whatever, brave it. And you will see a moving map. And it shows last year the United States,

you know, waged war in 88 countries. Okay. So we had an 88 country. So we're getting, look at the British Empire. They got so spread, so thin in so many places, right? And they got so worn down. They were facing conflicts in Turkey and the conflicts in India and conflict.

Next thing you know, America. You know, you got George Washington's like, I'm going to kill you. Right. And so America has become super extended. I think we need to restore what it means to be an American. Like I think we've lost, I think that term is synonymous with the wrong. things and being a patriotist synonymous with the wrong things and you think patriot you think like dude riding a jacked up side by side like woo like like freedom

like no there is no freedom there's only free and that's what America freedom means that someone's affording you that to me free is an alienable right is to live like as I see fit and fulfill my purpose and this nation affords me that and in turn I serve you know my country that gives me the opportunity and provides all this infrastructure and all those kind of things. We take all that for granted. And we need to restore the message of what it means to be an American. I don't care what political parties and what color and your race and general. I don't care about any of those things. What it is is a common thread that made this nation incredibly great and we've taken it for granted and it's starting to get frayed.

And what happens is that it's like Lennon said, you give them a rope and let them pull it around their neck and they'll hang themselves. Matter of fact, they sold. They sold. us the rope and we put it around our necks and so I hope I hope we can change I hope the noise can quiet down because if people got serious just you change the world by changing yourself that's the thing there's not these big grandiose ideas where I get out there and I'm like you have the huge idea the idea is that on the really macro scale I change myself and when I change myself I change the things around me and when the people around me change themselves the things around me change

and that's how mass change happens. It happens inversely as well. And so, you know, change for the negative. And I think like to restore what it means to be American, to be able to walk down the street and to be able to grab somebody by the hand, to be united to restore it kind of that viewpoint of what's made us so great is the common thread

that runs through the hearts of every single one of us. And we have to put all those things aside, all these projections aside, and get back to the basics of what it means to be a human. And I think that we can come back from this. Do I think we will? I don't know. I don't know. But if we don't, it will happen to us. And it will be more swift and more violent than we could ever imagine, whether it comes from the plan.

it or whether it comes from another nation, the time to change is now, is right now, and to readjust. So. Yeah. And like you just said, all that starts with you. Yeah. Whoever you are. You.

If you're listening to this right now, it's you. It's you. Change. And don't be afraid to change. You know, we're so attached to these outcomes. Like, don't be afraid to change. And, yeah, I just like, I see it in the world and I see people like today on the bus. I saw all these people.

I'm like, man, we are so disconnected from each other. Just trying to walk out the door of the bus to the rental car company. People are shoving each other just to get out first so they could do what? be one step in front of the other guy, right? Like, that's not who we are as a nation. That's what makes us different. And we got to get back to those cores, core values. This is a long one, dude.

Yeah, it's all good, man. I want to make sure, so you've been mentioning your nonprofit. Horses and heroes. Heroes and horses. Did I get it backwards? It's heroes and horses? Yeah, heroes and horses. Heroes and horses.

You can go to heroes and horses. is in there. You also have Instagram and Facebook and a YouTube channel. Heroes and Horses. All of those can be found at the same spot. Echo, you got anything? I do actually. So a long time ago, a few hours ago,

you mentioned something about an experience with a black bear, and then you just sort of moved on. Dang. Good point. I wanted to come back to that. I kind of wanted to know what happened with the black bear. Listen, you're wearing that freaking fingers claw around your neck right now. You know what's really funny about that is I've had so many run-ins with bears at this point in the game

I look back at that one and it and it's kind of makes me chuckle I mean I've had we had a bear come out horse go off a cliff and getting impaled like I mean I've run into him archery hunting all the time and and now I'm like my black bear story when I was like a teenager coming back from my dark years and this black bear like if I see a black bear literally the back of the job I'm just like I just pick a stick out of I'm like, ah, and he's like, take off. A grizzly bear is different. A grizzly bear is like you feel like you're hunted. But, yeah, no, what had happened was I was out hiking.

I was kind of just like, you know, here I am returning from, you know, this kind of childhood, you know, I guess you could say prodigal son kind of experience. And I'm up there hiking and while I'm sleeping out in no tent, a small black bear kind of comes in. And he's like literally sniffing around. He's all by me and everything. And all I had was like a Swiss home. army knife that I've gotten from my grandfather. You'd have the kind with a little white toothpick you could pull out.

And I have ever had it. And I was actually very terrified at the time. I was like, oh my God, like here's this thing. I'm laying in my sleeping bag and he's just kind of sniffing around, sniffing around. He's walking around. And that's what really like I started thinking about my life. He got my food. I didn't have it wrapped up properly.

It's my food. And so anyway, that experience right there. Like when I came back, I finished my hike with no food. It was like a three-day hike, so two nights and three days total and that was on my first night and that whole time I reflected on what did I want my life to be and so that was a real pivotal moment in the life that that little black bear came in and and made me think about the fragility of my own life You know and I'll tell you like there's nothing more that feeling in the wilderness of The wilderness is no mercy. You know it has only rule and only law has no mercy there is no quality in nature you know and you feel that when you're around animals and you see them and you're with them there's a there's an honesty that happens

and you know and I discovered that honesty really for um because I was a lost person you know and I did feel like I was invincible and so that little black bear kind of brought it in made me my Swiss army knife and made me feel my own fragility so that's what kind of led me to take in the next step to to change. Well, I'm going to ask you. So what happened with the gris and the horse falling off the cliff? Oh, man. So I mean, they're going to ask you now or we're going to stop recording.

I'm going to ask you as soon as we get done. So you know, otherwise everyone's going to have to sell one time. Yeah. So I was like, you know, it's like my second season packing and, you know, I got a pack string with me and I'm in the back and a grizzly bear kind of comes out on the trail. He comes back kind of like barreling down. Most of the time the bears will stop kind of like, look. sometimes they'll stand up and then they'll usually when they see the horses they don't like the

horses when you're alone by yourself that is a completely different story and one of the guys one of the cowboys was in front of me and he thought he was going to kind of spook the bear off more which was still kind of going down the trail because he dropped down to the next switchback and when he did the horse spooked when the bear moved and he went off the side and it was very steep and the horse kind of locked up his hindquarters and then took a jump locked up his hind quarters and then there was like one huge like douglas fir with a giant timber or um bow sticking out that was like pointed and when the horse leaped you know at that kind of steep grade it gained a lot of altitude and it landed directly on to that thing and it went through its stomach and out its side and it would made the most horrible noise i've

ever heard a horse make in my life and it was like like and it was like making this bellowing sound that the cowboy flips off peels the head stall off the horse everyone's like screaming like am I gonna so I'm like I like jump off my my horse I just leave the mules loose and I start like kind of trying to get down to him and the horse is like kicking and blood is like pumping out it's hitting me my face I mean it's a large animal and uh I'm trying to get him up off this thing and the cowboy's kind of the heads dazed and he's like there I was like, I need help getting this horse up. We're trying to stop the bleeding.

Like, you know, I'm like, and then the horse died. He died, like, probably, like, within 10 seconds, blood out. I mean, it was a massive injury. And where there was nothing more healing than that? Yeah, so, you know, that was, that was an intense experience. I've had him, we had some guys. We had a guy quit three years ago. Bear came out, barreled towards the whole pack string.

The guy that was working for me at the time shot him and tumbled them. The bear turned, came at him again, hit him a second time. What was he shooting? 357. That's why I carry 44 mag. And I was like, oh, dude, the 10-mill more shots. I'm like, 44 mag. And so the bear tumbles.

And, of course, you've got to call the Forest Service. It's just like investigation. And they came up, and it was 13 feet. The shot was made 13 feet. print from the horse. So he was about to tackle the animal. But most of the times, you know, they don't really want to bother you, but, you know, you never know. And the guy that quit was like, yeah, and I'm good. Well, the whole packstring exploded. Okay. So here comes a grizzly bear, a dead run.

And next thing you know, these guys are five, you know, they're on day nine on horses. Their horses start bucking and blow up and the mules are going every. I mean, it's like a yard sale from hell. This is complete freaking mayhem. Mayhem. Mayhem. Mayhem. You because, like, I mean, somebody that's more a skill could have, like, got a hold of them.

If you watch that film, the 500-mile project, you know, it's a great film, but we had a guy, a mountain bike run into him and the horse reared back and broke his orbitals and broke his face and then have to get medevacked or whatever. But things can get sideways, you know, with horses, like, pretty quick. And that grizzly bear experience was one of those.

But it doesn't happen often. And so by the way, apply to the program, it's totally safe. Almost totally safe. We'll protect you, no, but it's a huge opportunity. We just opened applications, by the way. I'll plug that real quick last week. So they're piling up quick. And, you know, we'll close them, I think, March 31st, and then April 1st.

We select the class. So we kind of select them along the way. And that selection is eight people? Or is it 16? There's three eight-man classes. and then we'll run our winter class, so we'll have 32 guys go through the program this year. So, yeah, so applications are open nine,

so go to heroes and orses.org and apply if you're interested in coming out for the experience of your lifetime. Right on, man. Awesome. 357 magdom, no good for bears. No, it's not. I mean, I have a 44 mag.

I'll tell you right now, I've done so many side cuts by side comparisons with guns like 10 mils, 357s. I'm telling you, you want that initial knock down power to be a wake-up call. And let me tell you, when a bear runs, they put their head down low to the ground.

They're not like up. They're super low to the ground. And so, you know, a lot of people don't realize that, like, they're actually difficult to hit because they're like, when they're running at you like that, you know, 30 miles an hour, they're coming at you. There's a lot happening very quickly. And bears aren't as scared of people anymore.

The scariest thing is when I shoot, you know, when I knock an elk down, and I'm by myself and then I got to hit on the GPS for the guys that are bringing the horses or whatever and I'm out there by myself like standing over a gut pile that is like the worst feeling

chalm in the water man it's the worst feeling like you want to tell I always build a fire and I like make it like super big or whatever and I try to put pine boughs over and piss on I'm doing all these like the kind of things or whatever but you want to talk about like getting in your own you know I'm doing the whole like what was that

I'm the only one out there I'm like yeah there's no like cool guys how long does it take the horses to get to you It depends where I'm at. Sometimes it can be a day. Okay. Have you ever slept out on some guts? No.

No, no guys come no matter what. Your horse can see at night. I always tell, listen, we ride at night and it's broke. I mean, things happen. I mean, there is no, it is what it is. You ride at night. You want to find out. You know, I always tell people, I said, you don't know, you know, a lot of people don't

know this little bit of history, but I always tell them that the, the, maybe I shouldn't say this. But an old cowboy told me one time that the Catholic religion was actually started. in Montana. And it was an old outfitter looking for tree branches at night. So riding this horse. And I always tell that joke to the guys joking around. Shout out to the Pope or whatever.

But I, it works. Like if you ride, you can't see anything. And you're like, you know, it is the craziest feeling to ride all through the night on a horse. It's wild. But the horses know what's up. Oh, they see perfect that night. No, but you can't see anything.

You know, and you're walking on these like ridges. and you just hear like rocks like ding ding ding ding you're like okay and you're just like you're riding a horse name like dingbat or whatever you're like I don't know I trust you but they don't want to die either so yeah heroes and horses.org I really appreciate the opportunity and taking the time you know to kind of hear the story and stuff so thank you very much well hey man thanks for coming on you know sharing these lessons thanks for your service and in everything that you did and and really man I think thanks for the most part what you're doing right now. Man, I think it's awesome and appreciate it, bro.

All right. Thanks. Thanks, ECHO. Micah, just stepped out. Awesome having him on. I just was reviewing my notes that I was taking while he was talking. And most of them I got to, but there's one that I didn't get to address. And I'm sure maybe you can come back on at some point.

We can talk about it. We'll just talk about it. But you remember he told the story. story or he was he was making hypothetical situation Warren Buffett is in the desert he has no water and Micah sees him and Micah has water and Warren Buffett's gonna die and he says you know I'll give you this water but you have to give me all of your money and and and Micah says so he's gonna do it right and that's true often But here's the crazy thing.

There are people whose ego will not allow them to make that trade. They would actually rather die. I know that sounds crazy. It sounds a little bit inconceivable. Let me tell you how it's not inconceivable. In what Laf wrote about with a situation with a special operations unit that was going to conduct an operation and Laif talked to some

National Guard guys that were saying do not do that operation Laif goes and gives that information to the special operations unit that was going to go do it and those guys were like no we're going those the National Guard guys

they don't know how to handle it I forget what the exact wording but we don't need to listen to them instead we're going to go do this mission and so we have to keep in mind that ego is so strong that if you have a guy now, look, Warren Buffett might be a guy who's, you know, let his ego,

he's an older guy, maybe he's got enough life experience to be like, oh, I want to live. That's more important to me. But I guarantee you, there are some individuals that would rather die than admit that they're wrong.

They'd rather die than take help from someone else. They'd rather die than ask for help. So that was just one little thing that I thought about. And unfortunately, you know, I took the note and then I didn't get to get to bring it up with with Micah. But that is something to think about. You don't realize how powerful a negative force an ego can be. Yeah. I was thinking the same thing too at that time.

There's a movie like kind of new, I think, where it had Kevin Spacey in it. And then before they released it, they replaced them because there was some Kevin Spacey scandal. Do you know what movie I'm talking about? It's something about the, I want to say the Gatsby, or I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what movie. But it was basically a famous rich guy. Wait, is in the movie or that's what the movie's about?

Both. Okay. It's, oh, no, no. Yeah, so it's about a real, it's like kind of like a true story or something. I think, if I'm not mistaken. I'm only gathering, like, pieces of it. But it's basically about this super duper rich guy. I want to say they kidnap his son or something like that.

or the daughter or something, and they're like, hey, basically, like, you know, held him for ransom. They were like, give us this money or whatever. And the guy, and it was no money for this guy. Like, it was not that much. And he was in the, I think it was like on the news or something. He was like, oh, so what are you going to do? He was like, I don't care. I don't care.

Like, there's no way he would give money. It was that, it was like that much, you know, where, yeah, I can lose a son. Like, whatever. It's like the, it's not like, and I'm totally trying to remember the thing. thing but it wasn't it wasn't like oh I can't afford it or it was it was more about the principle yeah yeah like like no no one not doing that much money no one can do that to me kind of a thing like I'm not even meanwhile like kind of real important thing you know the son or the grandson or something like that but yeah I thought that same thing too I said I get I get

the example because it's true it is true it's basically like like saying without your health you have nothing you know like you can't you can't bring your money to the grave like it's true But there are these weirdo little exceptions where it's like that doesn't matter to some people. Yeah, that ego starts to get charged up, man. It can be, it can definitely be a scary thing. So it's like, and you might even said this before where ego is essentially like a drug that you can, you know, some people like they'll, they'll just take drugs till they die. Like literally. Your ego will kill you.

That's an example. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like that thing. You know, people they'll smoke cigarettes like so much. And they'll be like, hey. The thing that I said was your ego will love you to death. Your ego will love you to death. Just like drugs will love you.

Like drugs love you. And I took this from Jay, I think, if I remember this correctly, Jay Adams, who is an old school skateboarder. Fucking a dirt. Like Dogtown, Z-boys. And I heard him saying drugs will love you to death. Because, you know, he had problems with addiction and went to jail and all this stuff. And I actually met him. And kind of hung out with him a little bit.

I was my friend my friend ran an underground skate downhill skateboarding event. Yeah, I like this. Not just one, but like a regular basis. And it was like, hey, we're going to meet at this random mountain that just got freshly paved. Like the state just freshly paved some mountain.

And we're going to meet out there and do downhill races. Have you ever been on a downhill skateboard? I've been on a downhill skateboard, yes. Okay. I said, oh, I'll try what this is like or whatever. I got on a downhill skateboard. I went 20 feet, and I was already going so fast I jumped off

because I could see where this was going. It said it wasn't a good place. I don't have the skill set to be doing this. Yeah. Guys race in leathers, like motorcycle racing leathers. They race in those things. So I kind of, so at any way, at one of these underground events, Jay Adams, rest in peace, was there.

And, you know, I got to shake his hand. And I didn't get a picture. That's a bad move, actually. Well, how long ago was it? 10 years? 10 years ago? Maybe 10 years. Maybe even a little bit longer ago.

You should have got a picture and then pictures are available at that time. Because if it's like 1991 or something. Oh, no, no, no. This was recent. This was like, you know, I was a grown man trying to get on a, a downhill skateboard. Dude, those guys are freaking crazy. Yes, sir.

They are bombing hills. Yeah. Bombing hills. You're on escape. This isn't on the snow or the water. Yeah. Like you fall in the snow. Look, you can get hurt on the snow for sure.

Yeah. You can get hurt on the water. You can get hurt there. Can. You can get hurt on the water. You can get hurt on the snow. If you fall on a freaking downhill scapeboard, you're getting hurt. Now, interestingly, they don't.

They wear leathers. They know how to fall better or whatever. Yeah. I think I think a lot of times especially in skateboarding in general that you just get hurt and I think those guys are kind of just used to it Where sure you know unless you break like your ankle or you'd wrist or whatever or whatever break whatever Either hurt or you're injured so skateboard is just used to getting hurt Just face it bro you get you get you get especially on the downhill right where you got a bail or whatever and you're sliding oh yeah Oh you're what are you hitting something's gonna stop you know so j adams said drugs will love you to death and as soon as I heard him say that I was uh yeah

You know what? Also will love you to death. Your own ego. Your own ego will love you to death. So you got to watch out for it. Yeah. Yeah. Like the short-term payoff of what it delivers to you is just so, makes you feel so good or safe or secure or whatever.

Get that little hit. Yeah. I mean, while your health, your safety, your well-being. Got to be careful that. Well, hey, this has already been a really long podcast. Appreciate everyone for listening. If you want to support the podcast, go to, jacofuel.com get some supplements of whatever kind you may need joccofuel.com.

We also have, look, we talked a little bit about China today. China. We talked a little bit about China. We are in an economic war with China for the time being. Could it escalate? Yes, it could. If we lose the economic war, trust me, the escalation is going to be real bad. So we're in an economic war with China right now.

and at origin USA, we are on the front lines of that war. We are building stuff in America. The things that Micah was talking about today, you know, a sense of purpose. When you're not making anything, you don't have, look, let me rephrase that. When you are making something, producing something, building something, you have a sense of purpose. And when you're building something that's helping rebuild your community, you have an even greater sense of purpose. So if you want to help us rebuild our communities, help us rebuild our country, help provide a sense of purpose to hundreds and one day thousands of hardworking Americans, then check out origin USA.com. Get awesome stuff that's made in America.

Yeah, I think that that concept kind of probably goes deeper than maybe we might think at a glance where. You know how like, you know, as technology evolves and all like all this other stuff or whatever, you know, basically it's just an, it's an evolution of problems being solved. So the smaller problems get solved, solved, just so you can take on bigger problems, right? And then we have innovation and, you know, all this stuff, invention. Like back in the day, right, you have these simple tools, a stick, a rock, you know, and you're making like you're spending five days making this one thing that literally you can buy it 7-Eleven nowadays, right? like that kind of stuff. But back then it's just how it worked. It's like, yeah, if you want a fire, bro,

it's going to take a lot to make that fire. Then after you make that fire, it provides the warmth and the heat and you can cook for you and your family and all this stuff. So it's like this little system that kind of works together. But then when you start inventing things,

that fire part, making the fire part becomes really inconvenient. Like we got to focus on this bigger problem here that making that fire takes like freaking, I don't know, 35, 45 minutes that maybe, would help us in this bigger problem if we could just do that in an instant.

So let's solve that problem in-deferon on an indefinite level, you know? So boom, we solve that problem. Now you got lighters matches, whatever, right? I'm sure it didn't happen in that order, but I'm just saying, for example. But it just keeps going and going and going and going. So we've got a bunch of problems solved for us now. Yes.

All kinds of problems. Yes, but now the problems become, you know, what's that hierarchy? It's like some hierarchy, right? Hierarchy needs. So now technology kind of, kind of like exploded so fast. So now it ended us up on that that higher part of the hierarchy or the needs, right?

But technology has it. Right now it's not good enough to solve those problems. So now you got people depressed or whatever. So I'm saying? So now, yeah, if we can infuse little, little sprinkles of senses of purpose into all of our lives, really, I think that's going to be the beginning of the solution to our problems. The awakening. Yeah, but it was just kind of like how Mike was saying, where.

you kind of got to go down to the baseline a little bit to explore. Like where can I infuse some of the purpose in that baseline? Then your life has just as a whole would be more beneficial, more fulfilling or whatever. Yeah. I think fulfilling is the word. Yeah, like you'll feel more purpose like just in your day to day, you know? It's just how it works. But, or I think it works like that.

Check. So originusa.com. Cool. Awesome to support. Get whatever you need there. Also, we got jocco store. which echoed made up the name for very original yeah because we have a store no I think I accepted the name for oh see I think you did I name it literally made it up you know what

actually now that you mentioned no you actually said to me like hey I'm gonna start us a store I was like oh what's it going to be called I don't think I asked that it was probably like three days later you're like hey I set up the store okay cool yeah you like well look at the website and I go okay cool what's the website you're like a jocco store you know it's funny like I'm remembering it and you're correct exactly right I don't know you could tell me anything right now and I believe you if you're like no you imposed it on me or no you said

you know your idea is dumb or you said you know Jocko you wanted to name the store something lame and then I came up I would believe whatever you said yes sir well I am remembering it now and it's weird because it's not like I was like hey what's the best kind of name

for this or that or you know I want to make this sure it was just like it was just kind of like a foregone conclusion Like I didn't even really think of it. I was like, oh, let's just do the thing. It's just how. Jocko podcast, so he got to have a store. So Jocco store.

No less, on Jocko store, you can get your apparel. Shirts, hats, hoodies. Good stuff if you want to represent on this path that we're on. Subscribe to the podcast. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. All that stuff. We appreciate it. Check out.

Check out Jock Underground.com. Look, there's a lot of influential things going on out there in the world. People are getting banned. Whatever. not whatever really yeah straight up some of us got shadow banned did you get shadow banned I don't know I don't know it's kind of like there are people that I follow that I know when they're shadow band because I'm like you know how you kind of miss it like you're like oh I haven't heard from this person when they're not posting and they've been and you even try to look them up

and their their name that's the thing that's the video that someone sent me was they're searching for my name and it's not up there look we don't know what's going to happen we don't know who's in control these platforms they seem to be being okay sometimes but sometimes we're getting shadow banned. So go to jocco-winterround.com if you want to help us out on that. Psychological warfare, you know the deal on that. Flipside canvas, Dakota Meyer, got some cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books.

If you want to check them out, there's some information in them that could help you. Especially the kids' books, man. Get the kids some books. And also have a leadership consulting company. Go to ashlonfront.com if you want some details on that. Check out our online training academy. Our online training academy, Extreme Ownership.com, putting all kinds of effort. The lessons that we learned are so helpful.

This is what we hear all day long every day. I get emails. I get handwritten letters. We get updates. Utilizing the skills that we brought back, the leadership skills, the life skills. If you want to get in the game, go to Extreme Ownership.com and check it out. Yeah, it's funny that academy because you have it under echelon front, you know, and I always looked at it or kind of imagined it as essentially, oh, this is what you, you know,

if you work or if you manage a team, you're a boss or something like that, oh, yeah, perfect, freaking perfect, really. But when you kind of look into it and you kind of go on there and stuff, this is really what it is, where it's like, okay, yeah, sure, I listen to Jocko, you know, sometimes involuntarily against my will, whatever. But let's say, voluntary, I listen to Jocco, and you know what, he has some good advice. You know and actually if I'm going to tell the truth here where if I listen to and by the way you kind of choose what you put in your head and what you listen to, right? So we choose to listen to you most of the time. So now Jocko with all this advice or whatever. He actually has an online academy like to train you. That's literally what it is.

It is like okay. And I kind of took it for granted where I can ask you questions like when I see you. It's easy. I can literally call you up if you answer. You've asked me a lot of questions over the years. Yes. If you think about it. And now I'm not talking about questions about how to do a Camura, which you have asked me. But I'm talking you come in with a legitimate scenario, business scenario, family scenario. I need advice straight up.

Just the other last time I saw you, I asked you, what do you think about this? I'm thinking about this or this. And I need like straight up legitimately need advice from me right now. Did I give you good advice? Yes. I think so. I'm following it. I'll tell you that.

And it's working or not working? So far. I guess. It was more of a long-term decision-making for a strategy. Well, then we're probably thinking it's the right move. Because you probably weren't thinking, no offense, you may not have been thinking long-term. A lot of us make that mistake. We think short-term.

Yeah. What plays out? I was. It's like one of those things where, you know how you make this decision to pursue this? It's going to put this other thing on hold for a long time. Or you can pursue the other one and it'll put this one on hold either indefinitely or for a long time. So it's like, which one is it? The advice I gave you is very good, by the way.

I agree. And even when you said it, it hit me so quickly that, yep, I think you're right. That's a good call. So if you didn't know me, if you weren't, if we didn't hang out, if we weren't doing Jiu-Jitsu, if we weren't doing the podcast, and you had that question, you could go to Extreme Ownership.com and literally ask me. And I would give you the same advice. Exactly right.

And that's what I would get some more particulars. Maybe your scenario is different. Maybe your area of operations different. But essentially you would get at least, now does this mean I'm going to preach to you that I know 100% no but I would help you weigh through the options which is what I do with you right yeah exactly right and that's exactly what I was gonna say it's it that's exactly what it is you know where you and then of course you know you you have a bunch of other experts in little little special specialty elements of

life or whatever as well but yeah that's what it is yeah you want to you want to get straight up life advice from jocco you want to get straight up online training from jocco there it is boom you got it right there streamownership.com hey if you also if you want to help out service members active and retired you want to help up their families go to mark lee's mom she's got an awesome charity organization called america's mighty warriors you can go to america's mighty warriors she's doing a ton of help a ton of help that i've seen with my own eyes my friends have gotten help from her so it's a great organization also obviously check out heroes and horses

dot org Micah in case you couldn't tell is a freaking awesome guy with an awesome vision and he's moving forward with that if you want any more of my torturous tales or you need more of Echo's discombobulating disclosures you can find them on the way you can find us on the interwebs on Twitter on Instagram on Facebook echoes at echo Charles I am at Jockel Willink does this mean we want you to go in there and waste time freaking getting sucked into the algorithm no don't do that you want to check out you want to hit us with something you want to give a shout out cool we appreciate it you want to get a little information about what we're doing cool don't get

sucked into the algorithm the so listening and I my brain mind and I'm sure a lot of people do the same thing where it does this thing where anytime I listen to like Micah or you know, any, I don't know, pretty much anyone's story and you hear those cool little parts of it

where it's like, oh man, I need to take away the computer from my kids from now on. You know, it's like you get sucked into a story so much,

like it's so, what do you call? Like, so engaging that you kind of, like, I kind of want to be a bow hunter now. You know, it's like that kind.

Giving John Dudley a call. That's what I'm saying when he's talking. I'm like, dang, maybe I miss my calling from, you know, for bow hunting.

Yeah. Maybe out there in the woods. with the gris. I literally shot one bow in my life one time, by the way, and it was pretty recently. But nonetheless, I still had that feeling, you see what I'm saying? Because you get so immersed in, like, the story or whatever. Then he was talking about, like, the social media, and I felt it. I was like, yeah, you're right.

Social media is so toxic. But the reality is it can be toxic, and it can be very beneficial. Like, you know, I'm, you know, you can be in communication with very valuable people for very good reasons. I've gotten through social media. probably gotten 30 guests on this podcast. Legit awesome guests freaking so stoked from social media. Oh yeah.

So that's definitely and it's and it is a legitimate way to communicate with other people. It doesn't mean you have to get in the algorithm. So it's there. We're there and also heroes and horses at heroes and horses. You can check out the Instagram, the Facebook, the YouTube. Go check out the YouTube. A bunch of the things that. that Micah talked about today,

he kept, hey, we made this film, we made that film. Go check those things out. They're really cool to watch. I watched them. And, yeah, so there we are. Micah, really appreciate you coming down.

Really appreciate your service in the military and out of the military. And once again, thank you for what you are continuing to do to help out vets. And it's going to have a huge impact. So thanks, brother. And to our active duty, military, and our veterans out there,

thank you for your service. And remember, you got a lot to offer. Even when that layer comes off, even when that layer comes off of the uniform and the military, when that uniform comes off, you still have a ton to offer. So go out, find a mission, find yourself. That's where it starts. And also thanks to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all first responders.

Thanks for what you do. And remember, just like the military, what you do is not necessarily who you are. You have more than your uniform. So remember that. And to everybody else, let's follow the words we heard today quoted from Micah, from Alexander the Great who said bury me with my hands out of the ground so the world can see that I left it with nothing let's leave it all in the field every day and getting after it until next time Zekko and jocco out