Jocko Podcast - 324: It's Only When a Man Supremely Gives, That He Supremely Finds. Bayonets! Pt.2

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

0:00:00 - Opening0:00:36 - "Bayonets!", by Joshua Chamberlain Pt.22:30:43 - How to stay on THE PATH.2:49:33 - Closing gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 324 with Echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, echo. Also joining us again tonight is Jason Gardner. Good evening, Jason. Good evening, Enoch. Evening, Jock. So we rolled in, we're talking about this book and a middle of a dissection of the life of Colonel Joshua Chamberlain, or general Joshua Chamberlain, the hero of Little Roundtop, the 20th Maine, who did a bunch of other things in his life.

and one of the parts of this book that Jason we were talking about before we got started was this letter from Joshua Chamberlain to Governor Coburn. This is from headquarters 20th Maine volunteers in the field July 21st, 1863. And here's what Joshua Chamberlain says. And this gives you such a keen insight into his leadership. and leadership. Dear governor, I embrace a rare opportunity, namely a day's halt within a few miles of our baggage, to write you in reference to the affairs of our regiment

in which I am well aware you feel the deepest interest. In the first place, allow me to thank you for the honor you have done me in entrusting to my care, this noble regiment. I trust I shall be. always worthy of the confidence you have thus placed in me I consider it an officer's first duty to look after the welfare of his men to this he is bound no less by the responsibility which the arbitrary nature of his power imposes then by the regard he should have to the interests of the service in which he is engaged my experience and

Several trying campaigns has taught me that the way to ensure the efficiency of the army is to keep the men in the best possible condition physically and mentally. So take care of your people and your people will take care of you. So we used to say that about our gear. Take care of your gear and your gear will take care of you because you know you got your parachute. You want to take care of your parachute. You got your dive rate. You want to get your weapon.

You want to take care of your weapon. It'll take care of you. Take care of your people and your people. going to take care of you. Without the people, there is no mission. There is no mission. Yeah. That balance, which occasionally gets brought up. How do you balance?

What's more important? The people are the missions. Oh, the people. The people. Without the people, there's no mission. And if you have one mission that you're going to do, I guess you can put the mission above the people, but you're not going to be in that situation. You're not.

So the people come first. And by the way, this is important. If there is alignment in what you're doing, what your mission is, should help the people. So when you're in combat and you're going out and you're taking the fight to the enemy, well, guess what? Now you can win the war. Now you can get the people home to their families. Now we can protect the world from fascism or from Nazism or from the Imperial Japanese army or from communism. That's what these things are doing.

So when you're out there a soldier, you're taking care of your people by helping to win the war. Those should be aligned. That's why you had disalignment or unalignment in Vietnam where people are saying, hey, wait a second, leading to me, aren't doing anything to me. I don't care if this is communist or not. It doesn't affect me. And so we're not aligned. It's a problem.

Some people, the people that were saying, hey, we believe in the domino theory, we think it's all going to fall down. We need to stop communism here. Those people were aligned and we're proactively fighting the war. some people weren't same thing in a company if I am trying to build a factory so that I can take my people and put them in a better situation where they have better working conditions it's going to help them if I'm trying to get my team to sell more widgets well Jason how many widgets you sell only sold three well hey Jason you need to sell more why well because I want you to be able to save money for college for your kids oh okay yeah so the better you do the better you do the

better we do. The better we do, the better you do. Because by the way, when you sell more widgets, we and Echo sells more widgets, now we can produce more widgets that lowers our cost to produce. Now we can lower our prices so you can sell even more widgets. So the mission and the men should be aligned. The mission and the people should be aligned. The goals should help. If what I'm doing is saying, hey, Jason, sell more widgets and you say why, and I say, because I want to line my pockets more, what we're not aligned. We're not aligned. But if I'm saying, hey, sell more widgets so we can lower the price point, so you can have more job security, so you can, you know, get a down payment for your house, all those things. We want things to be aligned. When they're not

aligned, that's when we're not having problems. Taking care of your people is not letting them come and late and leave early or letting them fall short of the standards. And so that that's really interesting. I like how Hockworth broke it out and I think in the laugh chapters of steal my soldier's heart where he's warning guys about being popular and folks want to be popular. Oh, yeah, I'll just let them smoke cigarettes

because they want to smoke cigarettes on watch and then they get killed. Being popular is not taking care of your people and when you try to maintain a standard you're making them better people by bringing them up to a standard. It helps them.

It helps them. Stay alive. The contrary to that is, or the opposite dichotomy of that is, hey, I'm just going to impose my rules on these people. They're not going to know why. They're not going to know how it helps them. They're not going to know that smoking in a watch position at night can get you killed by a sniper.

So instead, you just mandate these rules. And if you, hey, I don't care if I'm popular or not, that's not a good attitude to have. If you're not, look, you shouldn't be doing things to be popular. But if people don't like you that work for you, that's also a problem. That's also a problem. And if that, what I just said, makes you shudder a little bit and think, you know, I'm not sure if I'm on board that. You need to check yourself.

Quite frankly, you need to check yourself. I haven't worked for a leader that was a good leader where everyone said, yeah, I don't like that guy. They might say something like, hey, man, he can be a bit hard, but he makes sense. but he's doing it for the right reasons, but sometimes we're a little bit too slack. The leader that, hey, we all hate him, but we're going to do what he says, doesn't really exist, man.

No, at least you're not going to do it to the best of your ability, right? When I think about all those leaders that I worked hard for because I was, like, I worked hard for this leader because I was worried he was going to yell at me. Yeah. He got this much effort out of me. Yeah. The leader that I worked hardest for was the person that I was,

terrified of disappointing, like Delta Charlie. Yeah, yeah. And why in the world was I terrified of disappointing Delta Charlie? And every other leader that I put in that category, it's because they treated me with respect. That's all you gotta do. So treat everybody with respect, and then your life is gonna be that much easier,

especially your subordinates, because they're gonna work hard for you because it'll be terrified of disappointing you. And then, okay, well, what if they're just gonna to take advantage of you. Guess what? There's going to be some people that are going to try. There's going to be you got a team of 20 people.

There's going to be two or three of them that are looking to cut corners, looking to slack off. That's true. It's true in a seal platoon for crying out loud. In a seal platoon where they go through hell week and they go through buds and they're highly selecting all that stuff. Yeah. Some of those people get to a platoon and they don't want to do shit.

No. They want to freaking cut corners. They want to go home early. They don't care. That's what happens. You get those guys in a platoon. And they're not going to, they might not commit hanging offenses. right they might not like skip work or you know leave their weapon unattended or something like that

which okay that if they're that bad you can get rid of them but they know where the line is and they just they just tiptoe on that line and so there's people like that there's people like that in every organization and if you then treat everyone in your organization as if they're that person that's trying to get away with what they can and that's how you treat everyone You're not treating with respect. You're micromanaging them. And it's going to come back and haunt you. So here's an interesting thing.

It's like sometimes, sometimes I'm weak. And I'm that guy trying to leverage a friendship against the standard. And then when a leader's like, no, bro, you got to do it this way. I don't lose respect for them. I'm like, check. Being weak, I'll get after it. I want examples, bro. What's an example of that?

Oh, that's a good one. Oh, shoot. Like, um, want to come in late. Oh, yeah. You know? Or like, uh,

maybe on this dive, I should be the, and here's a secret for everybody. Seals don't like diving. Yeah. And so guys will try and wiggle out of it and find other things to do and stuff like that. And,

and, uh, so I know at times, I've tried to wiggle out of a dive and I'll get that leader that just all I got to do is raise their eyebrows Maybe they say something like bro. Yeah, yeah yeah really yeah no not really I'm gonna go build my rig That's like that story I've told about Delta Charlie so Delta Charlie's a guy I wrote about leadership strategy And tactics he's a guy that I work for in my second platoon you work for him at trade at just like everyone Just a universal respect admiration and love for the guy But we we had done a hydrographic reconnaissance it on red beach

you like with for the Marines and you know it's all nighter the freaking waves were huge we got our ass is kicked it's freezing we go back we make the chart in the middle of the night blah blah blah and then the Marines landed so we support their landing and they didn't like their landing it didn't go the way they wanted it to so Marines like we're doing it again so everyone went back to the ships and they're like okay well seals you got to do that hydro recon again and we're all like oh whatever I mean okay so we launched the boats and we're kind of in the wall like we're we have all the information we've already done

the charts we've done the graphs and someone thank God it wasn't me is like hey are we actually gonna do this recon and Delta Charlie's like well we don't have to and then he says but would that be the right thing to do that's always good and I was like oh I'm like I'm so glad I didn't say it because no one wanted to do it's freaking freezing dude it's freezing it's going to be a four hour evolution kicking through the surf and like being that guy. And actually, this wasn't me because I was a radio man. So I was in the boat with the GPS like marking our spot. So I wasn't the one that's going to suffer. But the number four man or five man that's getting pounded by four foot waves for an hour as we do a freaking

perpendicular or no parallel recon off the flutterboard line. I hate to admit it, but I've had to heard swimmer scouts in like three times before I actually rolled out of the boat because I didn't want to because it was so cold. And the firm scouts in, can we get a little closer? Can we get a little Closer, get in, okay. So that's why we take care of our people. That's what we're talking about with this incredible leader, Joshua Chamberlain. There's a bunch of examples, too, where we'll hit up, where he's just treating his guys with the most respect. Yeah.

And, I mean, just look at the way on the last podcast, we talked about the way he treated mutineers. The way he treated prisoner mutineers with respect. Listen to what they had to say, said, okay, I got your back. And as soon as he said he was going to take care of them, they took care of him. So take nothing else away. Freaking take care of your people. Going back to the book here. This is from where he starts talking about military operations on the White Oak Road.

The operations of the Fifth Corps on the White Oak Road. And once again, this is after he's coming back from five months of recovery and getting sent back from line. after he got shot hip to hip arteries blown apart. Snuck away. Yeah. And then it gets hospitalized and gets sneaks away to get back to the front. Fifth Corps on the White Oak Road, 31st of March, 1865. We're more serious in purpose and action than has generally been understood.

He says, and again, we're trying, I'm trying not to try, I'm trying not to talk through the entire scheme of maneuver on these things. it's much easier to do that visually than through the audio format. But just to give you some general understanding of the scenario, Lee's army during the previous winter had become much weakened by lack of supplies, desertions, and general demoralization of the Confederate cause, and Grant was determined to take decisive measures to break the whole Confederate hold on Virginia. He planned a vigorous movement to cut Lee's communications, and also those of Richmond,

and at the same time to turn the right flank of Lee's entrenched line before Petersburg and break up his army. Again, the reason we're still talking about Petersburg, which we talked about on the last podcast, is because that's nine months of entrenched warfare, of trench warfare. The scope of Grant's intentions may be understood from an extract from his orders to Sheridan. So now we're talking about General Grant on March 28, 1865.

he says the fifth army corps will move by von road at 3 a.m. tomorrow morning. The second moves at about 9 a.m. move your cavalry at as early an hour as you can and passing to or through dinwitty reach the height and rear of the enemy as soon as you can. It is not the intention to attack the enemy in his entrenched position, but to force him out if possible. Should he come out and attack us or get himself where, he can be attacked, move in with your entire force in your own way and with the full reliance that the army will engage or follow the enemy as circumstances will dictate. So the reason I wanted to point out this order is because think about this is really good decentralized command. Hey, do this in your own way. Figure it out. I don't care. And we'll back you up, cover move.

I shall be with you on the field and will probably be able to communicate with you. That's not a great comms plan. I'll probably be able to communicate with you. Guess what? Should I not do so? And you find that the enemy keeps within his main entrenched line, you may cut loose and push for the Danville Road. If you find it practicable, I would like you to cross the south side road between Petersburg and Berksville and destroy it to some extent after having accomplished the destruction of the two railroads, which are now the only abysmal. avenues of supply to Lee's army. You may return to this army or go into North Carolina and join

General Sherman. So very broad strategic guidance about what he wants done. Plenty of decentralized command happening there. It's good stuff. In his personal letter to General Sherman of March 22nd, giving the details of his plans for Sheridan's movements, he adds, I shall start out with no distinct view further than holding Lee's forces from following Shepard. That's the only thing he's trying to do. Like that's a great, this is when we talk about commander's intent. That's the commander's intent right there. I got no distinct view other than holding these forces from following chair.

That's what I'm going to do. But I shall be along myself and will take advantage of anything that turns up. These are flexible, good plans. Fast forward a little bit. Our whole division had arrived at the chapel, the chapel house. when at about noon my command was ordered to retrace its steps by the Vaughn to the Quaker Road and push up toward the salient of the enemy's works near Burgess Mill. Again, if you want to pull out a map, go pull out a map and you can see exactly what that means.

All the stuff is so well documented. Forwarding the run and forcing the position, we soon developed a strong line which had entrenched itself as an advance post to cover the important point at Burgess Mill. After stubborn fighting for over two hours involving a loss to us of 167 killed and wounded, including some of our most valued officers. I don't know why he doesn't describe that battle in much detail in this section other than the destruction that was caused, including some of our most valued officers and a much heavier loss to the enemy, of whom more than 100 killed and 50 wounded with 160 prisoners taken by a,

sudden counter charge fell into our hands, we pushed the enemy quite back to the White Oak Road and into their entrenchments behind it. On the 13th, the 5th Corps, relieved by the second, moved to the left along Boyden Road, advancing its left towards the right of the enemy's entrenchments on White Oak Road. Lee, also apprehensive for his right, sent McGowan's South Carolina Brigade and McRae's North Carolina of Hills Corps to strengthen Bushrod Johnson's division in the entrenchments there. So again, trying to set this up a little bit for you. The precise details of these orders and movements were, of course, not known to General Grant.

So General Lee's got stuff going on, which, you know, you just heard me kind of lay out. Of course, General Grant doesn't know what's happening. But enough had been developed on the Quaker Road to lead Grant to change materially his original. purpose of making the destruction of the railroads the principal objective of Sheridan's movements. At the close of our fight there, Grant had dispatched Sheridan. Our line is now unbroken from Appomattoes to Dwydy. I feel, I now feel like ending the matter, if possible, before going back. I do not want you, therefore, to cut loose and go after the enemy's roads at present. in the morning, push around the enemy if you can and get onto his right rear.

The movements of the enemy of the enemy's cavalry may, of course, modify your action. We will act together as one army here until it is seen what can be done with the enemy. So he's making some adjustments to what his original plan were, still giving some, you know, some statement that the enemy gets a vote and you can modify what you're doing. You can modify your action is actually. what he says. And, you know, part of the reason I'm going through some of these commands, because it's interesting to hear what these orders were like and how they came across and the importance

of writing well and being able to write things in a simple, clear, concise manner that everybody understands. So important. It's also important to realize that no matter how clearly you think you articulate something, The chances of that person having it and understanding it in exactly the manner that you wish to convey it are not strong, which is again another proactive reason to maintain flexibility in what you're telling people to do. And if you give them what the objective is, look, it's a lot easier for me to tell you, hey Jason, we're trying to get to this hill over here. That's, it's pretty hard. I want you to seize this hilltop.

it's hard for you to misinterpret what I say. Hey, go seize this hilltop. You need to go take that hilltop. Okay. Well, you know what you're doing. Now, if I start saying, hey, I want you to take that hilltop and I want you to maneuver in this direction. Plus, I want you to set this up over here. Now there's a bunch of things that can get misinterpreted.

Yeah, or we need to lay artillery fire down on this thing. Get me to a good spot to lay artillery fire. And then I can choose the hilltop that makes the most sense for me. Yeah. So simple, clear, concise. That concise piece is a real thing. When you start talking too much and trying to convey too much, and there's a balance, of course, you know, like take the hill. That might not be enough.

If I say take the hill in order to provide artillery support to this spot, now you can make all kinds of things happen. Communication. Fast forward a little bit. My command was the extreme left of our lines. my own brigade along the difficult branch of gravelry run facing toward Ares with the, and that's another leader out here, with Gregory's brigade, which had reported to me for this campaign, refused, which is a term that meant bent back at right angles so as to faced westerly, along a country road leading from Boyden to Clairborne Road.

And this is where we can start to get into a little bit. It may seem strange that in such a state of things, Warren should have been made, should have made the suggestion for a movement to his front, but he was anxious, as were all his subordinates to strike a blow in the line of our main business, which was to turn Lee's right and break up his army. Wet and worn and famished as we all were, we were alive to the thought that promptness and vigor of action, what we like to call violence of action, would at all events determine the conditions and chances of the campaign. And if this movement did not involve the immediate turning of Lee's right in his entrenchments,

it would secure the White Oak Road to the west of them, which Grant had assured Sheridan was of much importance and would enable us to hold Lee's Wright in check so that Sheridan could either advance on White Oak Road towards us and Burgess Mill, as Grant asked him to do or make a dash on the south side railroad and cut their communications. and turned their right by a wider sweep, as Grant had also suggested him do. Late in the afternoon, Warren received through General Webb, Chief of Staff, the following order. General Meade directs that should you determine by your reconnaissance that you can gain possession of and hold White Oak Road, you are to do so, notwithstanding the order to suspend operations today.

So he's getting told, okay, if you go do a reconnaissance, This is what Warren's getting told. Go do a reconnaissance. If you think that through your reconnaissance, you can take White Oak Road and you can hold it, then do it unless we tell you not to do anything today. Okay. And so...

This just turns into the biggest... I had a hard time. Like, he's trying to explain to us how much confusion was going on there. Yeah. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, and that's... I'm trying to track the confusion and I'm getting confused.

Yeah. Like, I guess I didn't even need to say like, hey, this is going to be confusing and it's hard to track. Even if you go watch the video on YouTube with the animated pieces from 40,000 feet showing you, you're still going to have a little. I'm going to watch that again. Wait, who is this over here? But so he gets told, hey, if you think you can take it, take it. And this is what Chamberlain writes. This gave a sudden turn to dreams. In that humiliation, fasting in prayer, visions arose like prophecy of old.

We felt the swing and sweep. We saw the enemy turn front and flank across the White Oak Road, Sherrod and flashing on our wheeling flank, cutting communications, enfilating the Clairborne entrenchments, our second core over the main works, followed up by our troops in the old line, seizing the supreme moment to smash in the Petersburg defenses,

scatter and capture all that was left of Lee's army and sweep away every menace to the old flag between us and the James River. Mirage and glamour of boyish fancy measuring things by its heart. Daydreams of men familiar with disaster, drenched and famished, but building as ever, castles of their souls above the level river of death.

What a way to say, Hey, bro, don't get your hopes up too high. This is when your, what is it, your emotions outweigh your capability. What's that term? The capability, don't let your enthusiasm outrun your capability. That's what he's talking about here. Hey, if we go, man, we can take White Oak Road. We can freaking cut the lines.

We're going to do it all. We're going to win it all. Daydreams of men familiar. That's what's scary. familiar with disaster. These are hardened combat veterans and they're drenched and famished, but they build castles of their souls above the level river of death. Such a good warning to us. Don't let your enthusiasm outweigh your capability. It was mingled with feelings of mortification, apprehension, and desperation that in the very ecstasy of these visions, word came to us of Sheridan's

latest dispatch to Grant the evening before that Pickett's division of infantry was deployed along the White Oak Road, his right reaching to five forks, and the whole rebel cavalry was massing at that place so Sheridan would be held in check by them instead of dashing up as was his want to give a cyclone edge to our wheeling flank. Grant's dispatch to Mead transmitting this was a dire disenchantment The Nell rang thus from this dispatch Warren will not have the cavalry support on his left flank that I expected He must watch Closely his left flank So now we're getting told we're all excited and now we're being told oh no you're not gonna have any support

And this is this is the ups and downs of war right the highs and lows of combat It's a go it's a not a go it's a go it's not a go Although Grant had given given outward that there should be no movement of troops that day. Lee seems not so to have. Lee seems not so to have resolved. So the enemy gets a vote. Hey, we don't think there's going to be any movement this day.

Lee didn't agree with that. Lee wasn't part of that plan. Driven to seize every advantage or desperate expedition, he ordered four brigades to move out from their entrenchments, get across the flank of the fifth court and smash it in. We did not know this, but it was the very situation, which Grant had made for the occasion for attacking ourselves. It was a strange coincidence, but it was to both parties a surprise.

The enemy gets a vote. That's what's happening. This was the condition of things and of minds when the advance ordered for the White Oak Road was put into execution. Aries advanced, soldier-like, as was his nature. resolute, firm-hearted, fearing nothing, in truth, not fearing quite enough. Although he believed his advance would bring on a battle, he moved without skirmishers, but in a wedge-like formation guarding both flanks, the enemy onset was swift,

and the encounter sudden the blow fell without warning, enveloping Ares' complete front. General Hunton Says they were not expecting to strike our troops so soon And that the attack was not made by usual orders But that on discovering our advance so close upon them A gallant lieutenant in his brigade Sprung forth in the front of his line Waving his sword with the shout

Follow me boys Whereupon all three brigades on their right dashed forward into the charge There's a little decentralized command Well, that's the reverse of what happened on Little Roundtop, right? They do a bayonet charge. They destroy a numerically superior force because they took them by surprise. And here, there's the Confederates doing it to them.

They're like, and actually, you're like, oh, well, they didn't do it by the normal pit. They'd gotten that echelon. And so, ooh, there's a little bit of complacency there, which will always get you. Yeah, that'll always get you. Luckily you got some young lieutenant that sees what's happening and says you know what I'm gonna make something happen We're going on the counter follow me boys Winthrop was overwhelmed and his superior and his support demoralized all he could hope for was to retire in order Meaning retreat that's what he's hoping you'd be able to get out of there this he exerted himself to effect

But this is not an easy thing to do when once the retreat is started before a spirited foe superior numbers or in the flush and rush of success so there's a Confederate guy that the decentralized command and just charged them right yes and that I just broke them the the and now we've got the Union saying oh we got a retreat like we're screwed which is bad and then he talks about it's worse yeah well it's worse and he said He's this, this wind drop, all he can hope for is that they can get out of there, like, not losing control. And he says, he tries to make that happen.

But it's not an easy thing when the retreat is started before a spirited foe superior number. So there's more Confederates. They're fired up. They're flush from having being like, they got momentum going on. And in vain, the gallant Denison strove to stem the torrent. A disabling wound struck down his brave. example and the effect of this shows how much moral forces have to do in sustaining the physical. So you've got a gallant individual that's trying to get to stop people from just running away.

Because if you just run away, you're going to take massive casualties. Look, if you retreat, you're going to take casualties. But to put it in very simple terms, if you don't cover and move as you retreat, you're going to get slaughtered. So you've got to say, okay, you know, platoon over here. You guys laid down fire. We'll go back 50 yards. Then we'll lay down fire for you. You have to do that. If you just all get up and turn tail, you're just going to get shot in the back.

And you're going to get slaughtered. So the leadership is trying to make that happen, trying to make it an orderly retreat. And this individual is stepping up, trying to like, okay, hey, platoon hold. And all of a sudden he gets shot. And then he says that the, this is. Effect shows the moral how much more the moral forces have to do than sustaining the physical. So when that happens, it just falls apart. Brigade after brigade broke.

In that instant, brigade after brigade broke, that strange impulse termed a panic took effect and the retreat became a route. Aries like a roaring lion endeavors to check the disorder and make a stand on each favorite crested ravine but in vain his men stream past him ooh so he's every time he gets a little terrain feature aries steps up and hey hold up hey let's get some cover fire they just run by him they come back on Crawford's veteran division and burst through it in spite of all the indignant Kellogg can do involving this also in the demoralization and the whole crowd comes back reckless of everything but to get behind the lines on Boynton road plunging through

the swampy run breaking through Griffin's right where he and Barlet reformed behind the third brigade so finally they run back behind friendly lines the enemy pursuing swarm down the bank opposite us and are met by sharp fire of musketry and artillery which we had made ready on hearing the noise of the retreat so once the people that are retreating get behind friendly lines, union lines. Now the enemies coming after them and they engage. We are expecting them to fall in force on our left in Gregory's front when I was riding along that line, anxious about this when General Warren and General Griffin came down at full speed, both out of breath, with their efforts to rally the panic-stricken men whose honor was their own and evidently under great

stress of feeling. So now you got General Warren and General Griffin come down on their horse. They're out of breath and they're trying to rally the guys because it's their guys. He says, whose honor was their own. It's their guys that are retreating. Griffin breaks forth first and after his high proof fashion, General Chamberlain, the fifth core is eternally damned. I assayed some pleasantries, not until you are in heaven. Griffin does not smile nor hear, but keeps right on.

I tell Warren you will wipe out this disgrace and that's what we're here for. Hey, it's all on you, bro. It's all on you, Chamberlain. We're damned. Then Warren breaks out with stirring phrase, but uttered as if in delirium of fever, General Chamberlain, will you save the honor of the fifth core? That's all there is about it. That appeal demanded a chivalrous response.

Honor is a mighty sentiment. And the fifth core was dear to me, but my answer was not up to keynote. I confess that. I was expecting every moment an attack on my left flank now that the enemy had disclosed our situation. And my little brigade had taken the brunt of things thus far, but the day before the last winning a hard fought field from which they had come off grievously thinned and torn and worn and whence I had hardly but fought myself that day.

or sorry, but I had hardly brought myself away. So he barely made it off the last battlefield. And we already talked about his casualties. He didn't talk much about the previous battle, but they had already taken a couple hundred or almost a couple hundred casualties. And he barely made it off. I mentioned Bartlett, who had our largest and best brigade,

which had been but little engaged. We have come to you. You know what that means. I'll try it, General. only don't let anybody stop me except the enemy. Right on. Yeah.

So they've been put in check a bunch of times. You know, hey, hold what you got, not just in this battle, but there's some specific moments when that happens where they're getting held back, held back, held back. And he says, you know, I'll try, but don't let anybody stop me but the enemy. I had reason for that protest

as things had been going on. They say back to him, I will have a bridge ready here in less than an hour. You can't get men through this swamp in any kind of order, says Warren. It may do to come back on, General. It will not stop. It will not do to stop for that now. My men will go straight through.

So they want to bring like one of those pontoon bridges down. Chamberlain, hey, in an hour we'll have you a pontoon bridge. Otherwise you can not be able to do it. That'll do to come back. We'll come back on that bridge when we're done. So at a word The 1st Battalion of the 198th Pennsylvania Major Glenn Commanding

Plunges into the muddy branch waist deep And more with cartridge boxes borne Upon the bayonet sockets above the turbid waters The second battalion keeping the banks beyond Clear of the enemy by their well-directed fire We got covered move going on by the way Until the first has formed in the skirmish order And pressed up the bank

I followed with the rest of the brigade in the line of battle And Gregory's in column of Reddard's in column of Redd The enemy fell back without much resistance until finding supports on broken strong ground They made stand after stand Griffin followed with Bartlett's brigade in reserve In due time areas troops got across and followed up on our left rear while Crawford was somewhere to our right and rear But out of sight or reach after we had once cleared the bank of the stream after sharp fighting here we drove them across an extensive field some works they seem to have already prepared of the usual sort in field operations logs and earth from which they delivered a severe fire which caused the right of my line

to waver taking advantage of the slight shelter of a crest in the open field i was preparing for a final charge when i received an order to hold my command and defend my position as best i could i did not like that much it was a hard place to stay in the officer who brought me the order had his horse shot under him as he delivered it so here you are you're like ready to make a charge and all of this and they say hey hold you got and by the way the person that's telling you to stay there just had his horse shot out from under him i rode back to see what the order meant i found general griffin and general warn in the edge of the woods overlooking the field and reported my plans we had already more than recovered the ground taken and lost by the second and third divisions the fifth

core had been rapidly and completely vindicated and the question was now of taking white oak road so they've gotten back all the ground the fifth core yay i we delivered you wanted me to rectify the honor lost by the brigade by the core sorry we did it and he says i propose to gregory to put gregory's brigade into those woods by battalion and national by the left by which formation he could take in flank and reserve and succession my any attacks on my right when gregory should be well advanced i would charge the works across the field with my own brigade My plan being approved, I instructed Gregory to keep in the woods. So it's another great example of pushback.

They tell him, hold. He goes, wait a second. They're not seeing something that I'm seeing, goes back and talks to his leadership and says, I got a better idea. How about this? And they say, get some. And the moment he struck any opposition to open. This is another part of the plan was at the moment, this was for Gregory.

The moment he struck any opposition to open at once with full volleys and make all the demonstration he could and I would seize that moment to make a dash at the works in my front. Had I known to the fact that General Lee himself was personally directing affairs in our front, I might not have been so rash or thought myself so cool. So he comes up with this plan and later he finds out those. General Lee was going up against. Damn. And now it gets down to business.

He says what we had to do could not be done by firing. This was foot and hand business. We went with a rush. Not minding ranks or alignments, but with open front to lessen loss from long-range rifles. Within effective range, about 300 yards, the sharp cutting fire made us real and shiver. Now, quick or never, on and over. The impetuous 185th New York rolls over the enemy's right and seems to swallow it up. the 198th Pennsylvania with its 14 companies half veterans half soldiers born so swing in from their left striking hunting's brigade in the front and for a few minutes there is a seething wave of counter currents then rolling back leaving a fringe of wrecks and all is over we pour over the works on across the white oak road swing to the right and drive the enemy into their entrenchments along the claireborne road and then

establish ourselves across the road facing northeast and take a breath. There's a footnote in here. General Hunting, since Senator from Virginia, said in his testimony before the Warren Court, speaking of this charge, the charge that he led, the charge that Chamberlain led, I thought it was one of the most gallant things I had ever seen. Major Woodward in his history of the 198th Pennsylvania, giving a graphic outline of the last dash closes with an incident I had not reported recorded only for a moment he says did the sudden and terrible blast of death cause the right of the line to waver on they dashed every color flying officers leading right in and among the enemy leaping the breastworks a confused struggle of firing cutting thrusting a tremendous surge of force both moral and physical on the enemy's breaking lines and the works were carried. Private Augustus Zeber captured the flag of the 46th, Virginia

in mounting one of the parapets and handed it to General Chamberlain in the midst of the melee, who immediately gave it back to him, telling him to keep it and take the credit that belonged to him. Almost that entire regiment was captured at the same time. It was scarcely need be added that the man who captured that battle flag was sent with it in person to General Warren and that he received a Medal of Honor from the government. So again, the representation of these flags is... Well, that and the fact that Zeber cat...

Zeber is that? Yeah, Zeber. Zabre. Zabre. Augustus. Augustus, Grute. Zeber captures the flag, and then he's like, hey, man, you got it. You keep it. Nobody misses that. Nobody.

They're like, oh, that's the guy that's letting the team have the credit. And that's the kind of leader that you're going to die for, that you're going to be afraid of disappointing because he's pushing it. And there's just example or after example of him doing that kind of thing. Yeah, that's literally what you said. It's the flag, the symbol of the enemy. me is this thing, this flag. That's all the credit.

That is the credit. And the young soldier gives him the credit. And he says, no, you get the credit. In due time, Gregory came out of the woods. His face beaming with satisfaction at the result to which his solid work so faithfully performed had been essential. By the way, this is just a giant cover move. Gregory's over in the woodline, laying down fire.

As soon as they got to a point where they had good angle, they let loose the fire. and that was Chamberlain signal to go, and they went. That's why there's no other tactic. That's it. His brigade was placed in line along the White Oak Road on our right and a picket thrown out close up to the enemy's works. This movement had taken three hours and was almost a continuous fight

with several crescendo passages and a final cadence of wild chromatic sweep settling in the steady keynote, thrilling with the cords of its unwritten overtones undertones that it cost us a hundred men but this was all too great of men like these and for oblivion it was to cost us something more a sense of fruitlessness and thanklessness and fast forward in a little bit grant had experienced a sudden change of mind mind a complete and decided one his imperative order now

received meant giving up entirely the position we had just been ordered to entrench across the hard one white oak road that and that I mean after this it just turns into a huge mess which it take like three hours just to try and tangle yeah um and I guess the biggest example of it is just really really poor communication yeah information coming in at weird times and yeah we'll jump into that it's worth jumping it that's good that's one of the reasons I kind of felt like I had to sort of try and explain some of the maneuver, the scheme of maneuver, so that we could, when we get to the kind of breakdown of all these orders that were coming in,

when they came in, it's, and this is another one of those orders, which is, hey, give up that what you just fought for. That's the fruitfulness that he just talked about. Here's why. And it goes, then it says, Warren, anxious to fulfill the spirit and object of the order, rather than render a mechanical obedience to the letter of it, sends his nearest division under Ares the strong, stern old soldier of the Mexican War to start at once for Sheridan. This was the situation when half past 10 in the evening came an order throwing everything

into a complete muddle. It was from Meade to Warren. Send Griffin promptly as ordered by the Boynton Plank Road, but move the balance of your command by the road Bartlett is on and strike the enemy in the rear. who is between him and Dinwiddie. So now you can see, now the orders are becoming very, very specific. Actually telling this person to go to this place and do this thing.

Instead of letting the people on the ground, hey, my intent is to get to the rear of the enemy. If you said that to me, cool, I got a group that's even closer, a group that didn't take that many casualties, or a group where I got a super aggressive leader and you can make it happen. But when you give these very specific micromanaging directions,

you're going to impose things on that you might not have intent. You know, who's the person best to solve the problem? The guy back in the tent or the person closest to the problem? And that's what you're empowering those folks to do. And you're like, hey, here's what we need to do. And then you figure out. Because it's just, it's all these specific orders coming. Yeah.

Flipping guys around. Yeah. And if you see something or know something from the tent that the person in the front can't know or can't see, then it's your job to inform them of that So that they can put that into the calculus of their decision-making process. Patton said the exact quote, but the leader on the front is always wrong. The leader in the front is always right. The leader in the front is always right.

So you support that guy. Jason calls back and says, hey, I need air support. Cool. I'm getting your air support. You tell me you need another platoon, cool. We're sending another platoon. I'm not saying, well, why do you do that? If you say, hey, I'm going to maneuver to the north instead of the south, okay.

Let me make sure you have the support you need. Not, well, I actually think it would be better to. Unless I see, hey, Jason, there's a massive enemy force coming in from the West. You need to see her clear there. Oh, thank you for telling me. Another, by this order, the core was to be turned end for end and inside out. Poor Warren might be forgiven if at such an order his head swam and his wits collapsed. He responds thus and has been much blamed for it by those under his canvas then since.

I issued my orders on General Webb's first dispatch to call back, which made the divisions retire in the order of Ares, Crawford, and Griffin, which was the order they could most rapidly move in. I cannot change them tonight without producing confusion that will render all my operations nugatory. I will now send General Ares to General Sheraton and take General Griffin and General Crawford to move against the enemy at this last dispatch to Rex. I should. I cannot accomplish the object of the orders I have received. He says, look, dude, I've already got people in a certain order out here. If I start trying to rearrange them in the middle of the night, are you kidding me? No.

But what inconceivable addition to the confusion came in the following dispatch from General Mead to warn at one o'clock at night would not time be gained by sending troops by the Quaker Road. Again, this is bad micromanagement happening. one of the very first Academy briefs that I did on the Academy was about I called it the whip And yeah I talked about we were on the args

We're on a ship and we're supposed to be doing some training mission And we get told hey you're gonna take your zodiac boats and load them on a helicopter and Go do this mission. Okay cool so what does that mean? I it means about four or five hours of preparation. Zodiacs, we got to get the Mo Gas fuel to the right part of the ship. We got to get the equipment prepped and loaded into the Zodiacs.

Then we got to get the Zodiacs moved up to the Helode deck and then we got to tie them all up with all that freaking 10,000 feet of half inch and one inch tubular nylon. Put the honeycomb cardboard into the bottom and put pack. the freaking engine into it. Like there's this massive amount of work.

We're doing it. And then we get word, hey, actually, you're not going by Hilo. You're going by rib boat, rigid, whole inflatable boat. Okay. So we start breaking all that stuff down. It takes us another five hours to break it down and get these Zodiacs ready to launch with the ribs. Just as we complete that task, what comes back?

Actually, it looks like it's going to be Helos. So this is some... I've lived that same thing. Oh, it's a nightmare. And I call it the whip because it's a little tiny movement up at the top. It's just a little, oh, we're going to use helos? Okay, he literally changes one word in a brief. Insert by heloes, insert by rib.

Changed one word in this little briefing. Takes him four seconds. And it costs us five hours of work. And then very quickly changes it back to ribs, back to helos. And so as leaders, we have to understand the impact that the little movement you have from the top takes on the bottom. Who corrected that? I think we like DOR'd on the like fourth change.

Like no, actually, I think my platoon commander was like, hey, we don't have time. We can't actually do that. The only thing we can do is launch on whatever it was. I think at that point it was on ribs. We can't get, we don't have time to get Helos ready. What do you mean you have time? It takes five hours to rig four boats for freaking. Yeah, it's interesting.

And that's one of those things where. Dude, I just raised your blood pressure. Because I've lived out where somebody comes out of this air-conditioned space where they're doing it. And they're like, I live that in Guam. It's like, hey, we're going to do a stack duck. And we get all the way to where we get the jump master to come to a stack duck is when we have, we're going to jump two zodiacs via parachute in. And the rest of us are going to parachute.

And then it turns into the limp duck where now it's not going to get parachuted in, but it's just going to get pushed out the back of helicopter. It's got to get re-rigged completely and everything changes and you're just getting flailed around. And that's when mistakes happen. And that's when it's good that like, hopefully there's somebody in there in the decision-making process. It's like, hey, you're jerking everybody around right now. That's detached because the guys that are making these calls, they don't realize it. They're just coming up with a bunch of good ideas.

And they've forgotten what's happening. at the end of that whip that they're waving around. Continues on here. Rapidly changing plans and movements in affecting the single purpose for battle for which battle is delivered are what a soldier must expect. And the ability to form them wisely and promptly illustrates and tests military capacity. But the condition in this case rendered the execution of these peculiarly perplexing. orders had to pass through many hands and in the difficulty of delivering owing to distance

and the nature of the ground the situation was called which called for them had often entirely changed hence some discretion as to the details in executing a definite purpose must be accorded to subordinate commanders decentralized command thank you the details in executing a definite purpose the purpose needs to be definite this is what we're we're doing the details of execution let the subordinate commanders do it look for a moment at the summary of the orders warren received that evening even after we had reached white oak road affecting his command in detail one to send a brigade to menace the enemy's rear before sheridan but he had already but he had already a divit of his own accord set bartlett's brigade

of griffon's division the nearest troops by the nearest way you already had that problem handled 2. Send this brigade by the Boynton Road instead of the crump. This was a very different direction and a very different tactical effect, but impossible to recall Bartlett, Warren sent Pearson, already on Boiton Road with a detachment of Bartlett's brigade. Three, send Griffin's division by Boiton Road to Sheridan and draw back the whole core to that road. Griffin's division being widely and far scattered and impossible to be collected for hours, Warren sends Aries Division nearest and. and most disengaged. Four, to send Aries and Crawford by the way of Bartlett had gone and insisting on Griffin's going by Boynton Road.

This would cause Aries and Bartlett to exchange places crossing each other in a long, difficult and needless march. Ares having gone, according to Warren's orders, Griffin and Crawford were to go by Bartlett's way. but Griffin had sent for Bartlett to withdraw from his position and join the division ready to mass on point road. So this is just, you can see why this is just mayhem. It's total mayhem. And it's mayhem from micromanagement is what it is.

Mayhem from micromanagement. It is difficult to keep a clear head in trying to see this into this muddle now. We can imagine the state of Warren's mind. But this was not all. Within the space of two hours, Warren received orders involving. important movements for his entire core in four different directions. These came in rapid succession and in the following order. One, to retrench where he was on the White Oak Road and be ready to fight in the morning.

This was from Grant. To fall back with the whole core from the White Oak Road to Boynton and send a division by this road to relieve Sheridan. This was also from Grant. Number three, Griffin to be pushed down Boynton Road, but the rest of the core, Aries and Crawford to go across the fields to the crump road by the way Bartlett had gone and attack the enemy in the rear who's opposing Sheridan this was from Meade this required a movement in precisely the opposite direction from that indicated in the preceding order

which was now partly executed aries had already started number four meads advice to send these troops back by Quaker Road 10 miles around and give up the rear attack Number five, to these may be added the actual final movement, which was that Aries went down the Boynton Road, and Griffin and Crawford went by dirt road across the country to Crump Road, as indicated in Meade's previous orders. There's one more thing. General Grant thought it necessary in order to make sure that Sheridan would have complete and absolute command of his troops to send a special message asking Meade to make that distinct announcement to Sheridan. This is craziness. The orders which came to General Warren that night were to an amazing degree confused and conflicting. This is charging no blame on any particular person.

We will call it, if you please, the fault of circumstances. But of course, the responsibility for the evil effects of such conditions must naturally, in military usage and ethics, rest upon the officer receiving them. and he is not allowed to use his judgment as to the details of his own command, it makes it very hard for him sometimes. Indeed, it is not very pleasant to be a subordinate officer, especially if one is also at the same time a commanding officer. But in this case, I think the trouble was the result of other recognizable

contributory circumstances, if I might not say causes. So he's got some other reasons why. this stuff happened. This is just, it's just mayhem. And he's in writing the most articulate and eloquent case for decentralized command and not micromanaging. Some of the reasons, he

says, the awkwardness of having in the field so many superior rather than coordinate commanders. It's a bunch of people. Make a bunch of chiefs, no Indians. And it's not really clear who's the main effort. And I think they shifted up at one point. And you called this.

A double objective. One point being Sheridan's independent operations to cut the enemy's communications, the other turning of Lee's right and breaking up his army by the infantry. Which one of those? This is prioritized and execute. Which one of these is more important? Which one do you want us to do? And by the way, you can't just say both because both only works if the enemy doesn't get a vote,

but the enemy is going to get a vote. And so is weather. And so is your troops. And so is morale. And so is the supply chain. Like all these things are going to have an impact. So we got to know what's the most important thing. you want done.

Number three, these supreme commanders being at such a distance from the field of operation on the 31st of March that it was impossible to have a complete mutual understanding when orders were put into effect. You're not up there and you're making calls from the rear with the gear. Number four, time lost and sequence confused by the difficulty of getting over the ground to carry orders or obey them owing to the condition of the roads or lack of them and the extreme darkness of the night. So, yeah, communication problems.

He says at three o'clock I had got my pickets, which were replaced by Crawfords and let my men rest as quietly as possible, knowing there would be heavy burdens laid on them in the morning. So all this freaking chaos is going on. And by the way, like, when that whip hits the freaking infantry men that's out with his single last shoes that are both made for a left freaking foot. God. And he's lost four of his friends and he hasn't eaten and he's thirsty after such a day and night. as that of the 31st of March 1865, the morning of April 1st, found the men of the fifth course strangely glad they were alive. They'd experienced a kaleidoscopic regeneration.

They were ready for the next new turn. The test of ordinary probation had been passed. All the effects of humiliation, fasting, and prayer believed to sink the body and exult the spirit had been fully wrought in them. At the weird midnight trumpet call, they rose from their fields as those whom death no longer had any power. They're pulling out for the march in the ghostly midst of dawn looked like a passage in the transmigration of souls, not sent back to work out the remnant of their sins as animals, but lifted to a third plane by that three days of the underworld. Eliminating sense incorporating the soul.

There's a word I had to look up. migration that's basically reincarnation so they're getting reincarnated not as animals but lifted to a third plane there was an interesting note on here on the term infantry did you do the etymology of the word infantry don't know it infant yep the lamest etymology I'd ever heard I was so bum that he almost didn't want to talk about it on the podcast but Back in the day, the infantry were the people that weren't old enough or mature enough or of high status enough to fight on horses. And so they're infants.

They're the babies. I didn't want to say this. I can't, I can't not say it. I can't say it's not true. But that's where it comes from. Because what does he say? Sheridan had also come to the opinion that infantry was a good thing to have around. by some queer break in the hierarchy of honor subordinated to the chevaliers, the biped,

meaning the person, to the quadruped, meaning the horse, and by some freak of etymology named infantry, the speechless, because that's another thing. Like, hey, you don't need to say anything, your infantry. The speechless, whether because they couldn't talk or because they mustn't tell. Sorry, infantry troopers of the world. You have my utmost respect, and I apologize for the etymology of your name. It's horrible. They have no idea what to make of it.

We'll stick with grunts. The troops. What's that? One of Press Fields book on Afghanistan, the Afghanistan campaign, that one of the infantry guy goes, you know what we are? We're mules. Mules that kill. Yeah, that's a good one.

Because all they do is walk and pack gear. That's a good one. And then fight. Well, the dedication in about face to all the doughboys, the ground pounters, the grunts. the American infantry men. There you go. Going back to the book, the troops had enjoyed about four hours

of this unwonten rest when the cavalry having completed its reconnaissance were ordered for it. And by the way, he talks about this. There's a march that they take place that they have to freaking march their ass off to keep up with the cavalry. Horses.

We who were trying to follow closely, we're talking about the march. We were trying to follow closely were brought to frequent standstill. This was vexatious. Another good word for you. Our men being hurried to the feet in heavy marching order, carrying on their backs perhaps three days life for themselves and a pretty big heavy installment of death and for their antagonist and now compelled every few minutes to come to a huddled halt in the muddy road marking time and marking place and also with deep discontent. In about two hours we get up to where Sheridan

wants us. I think it's crazy to, to, to, to, that he in this in this elevated book, he still talks about the fact that it sucks when you're walking and you got to stop and then you go and then you stop and then you go and you stop and it's hurry up and wait. He even has to mention that that it's vexatious to have that happen. During this impatient waiting for the seemingly slow preparatory formation are spiritual wheels were lubricated by the flow of discussion explanation about the plan of attack Sheridan took a saber, a scabbard, and described it graphically on the light earth. So this is the classic, hey, he pulls out his sword and draws in the dirt. What we're going to do. The plan in

general is for the cavalry to occupy the enemy's attention by a brisk demonstration along the right front of their works, while the fifth corps should fall upon their left and rear by a sort of surprise if possible and scoop them out of their works along the white oak road and capture or disorganize them. Cover and move. Go ahead. And we're back to where he was yesterday because yesterday they were holding White Oak Road. And they got jacked around and drug around and walked all the way around and now they're

right back to where they started. It's amazing that they just didn't just completely get pissed off and throw their rifles down. And there's all kinds of confusion. In fact, he says, illities at such confusion of mind. I wrote over to General Griffin, who with General Warren was close on my left at the early stage of this movement and asked for an explanation. Griffin answers quickly. We will not worry about ourselves in diagrams. We are to follow Crawford.

Circumstances will develop our duty. Okay. Well, that's more helpful than that diagram they're about again. They're starting to move. He says, I halted my line and rode ahead through the woods to some high, clear ground, the southeastern corner of a large field known as Sidnor Field, along the opposite edge of which I could see strong skirmishing along Crawford's front. And turning suddenly, looking across broken scrubby ground,

could see Aries troops engaged in a confused whirl of struggling groups with fitful firing. So he's maneuvered into a position where he can see what's happening. there was Aries fighting alone and that was not in the program meaning that wasn't part of the plan there was Griffin down there that was an order enough for me and I took the responsibility of looking out for the left instead of the right where my last orders committed me I pulled my my brigade out of the wood by the left flank telling Gregory to follow and sending to Bartlett to let him know what I was doing pushed across a muddy stream and up through a ravine toward aries halfway up griffin came to meet me never more welcome he gave the look i wanted and without

coming near enough for words waved me to follow up to the head of the ravine and to attack on my right along the bank where hidden by brush and scrub the enemy had a line perpendicular to their main one on white oak road and were commencing a slant fire in aries direction griffin road passed me toward warren and bartlett so there's a bunch of things going on there. Number one, he'd been told to do one thing, but he looks at what's happening and decides I got to do something else. And on top of that, he then he actually tells other people, hey, I'm adjusting the plan here. So you know, I'm doing this. I mean, that's what right looks like. Yeah, that's what right looks like. And again, it's when you think about the

details, he's writing this book, the detail that you just pointed out was important enough to him to put it in here to say, I let him know. what I was doing and you know when we mentioned on the last podcast about Gettysburg and hey this guy took initiative it was good this guy took initiative it was bad what's the difference one of the there's several differences one of the differences oh I took initiative but didn't tell anyone that's bad oh I took initiative and tell people what I was getting getting to do then that's good that's one of the things that makes it good so again you got to pay attention to

what he's paying attention to he's paying attention to of us telling us leaders, hey, when you're going to change something, you need to let people know what you're doing. And then I just thought it's cool. You want to talk about relationships and sort of like the silent leader. Just see the guy, look at him. I got you. The head nod.

We're going. Ares fitful fire was approaching and I rode over towards it. Somewhere near the angle of the works I met Sheridan. He had probably seen me putting my men in and hence I escaped censure for appearing. Indeed, his criticism seemed to be that there was not more of me, rather than less. Oh, by God, that's what I want to see was his greeting. General officers at the front. Where are your general officers?

I replied that I'd seen General Warren's flag in the big field north of us, and that seeing Ares was in a tight place, I'd come to help him, and by General Griffin's order. Then, cried he with a vigor of utterance worthy of an army in Flanders. You take command of all the infantry round here and break this damn. I didn't wait to hear anymore. That made good grammar as it stood. I didn't stand for anything but spurred back to some scattered groups of men demoralized by being so far in the rear and not far enough to do them any good. Yet too brave to go back.

Captain Brinton of Griffin's staff came along and I took him with me down among these men to get them up. I found one stalwart fellow on his hands and knees. knees behind a stump answering with whimsical grimaces to the bullets coming pretty thick and near look here my good fellow i called down to him don't you know you'll be killed here in less than two minutes that would be a shame this is no place for you go forward but what can i do he cried i can't stand up against this all alone no that's just it i replied we're forming here i want for you to guide center up and forward up and out he came like a hero i formed those reserves on him as a guide in the whole queer line 200 of them went in right up to the front and like the thick of it my poor

fellow only wanted a token of confidence and appreciation to get possession of himself he was proud of what he did and so was i for him freaking epic i got goosebumps from that man You know, I tell that story. I was at trade ed and like the mountain situations going on and the guys are getting all their ass kicked with paintball and everything. And no one's making any decisions. And I walked over to this one badass E5. And I looked at him, I go, hey, bro, I go, what do you think you should do right now?

He's like, we ought to freaking storm that building over there and get some freaking, get some cover. And I go, why don't you make it happen? And the look on his face, I wish I had a video. He looked, the look on his face was like, wait, why don't I make it? happen you mean I can make this happen he goes hey strong point that building immediately everyone said what he said freaking I think he might have been a new guy might have been a one cruise wonder I'll have to ask him because I know exactly who it is he's an awesome guy but just that right there I mean this is a combat situation dude you just give that

little bit of confidence you take charge this is taking ownership right when we talk about giving people ownership you give them ownership hey I'm going to to make you the center. People always ask us, what do you do with people not motivated? Give them ownership. This is the example. Henceforth, this is the example of giving ownership. I despise running. Despise it. You're not going to catch me running unless I'm running toward a chocolate cake or away from the police, right? But if you tell me to lead a run, I can run. Somehow, it's like, somehow, it's like anyone who's leading a run when you're doing a conditioning run, you're like, man, they're really setting the space because somehow you're buoyed up by all those

people behind you. You own it. It's you. Yeah. General Gwynn was riding up and down their front in a demonstrative manner, but giving no sign of forward movement. I thought this strange for him and bad for all of us in the pinched things we're at. And with the warrant Sheridan had given me galloped down to him and asked him, if he was acting under any particular orders from General Ares.

No, general, he replied with an error of relief. I've lost Aries. I have no orders. I don't know what to do. Then you come with me. I said, I will take responsibility. You shall have all the credit. Let me take your brigade for a moment.

So that's in two pages. You've got giving ownership and taking ownership in two pages. in two pages, in two paragraphs, really. And by the way, I'll take responsibility. You'll have all the credit. This dude is like, deal. Deal and deal. Then Sheridan was by my side in a moment, very angry.

You are firing into my cavalry. Here we get blue on blue. He exclaims his face darkening with a checked expletive. I was under a little pressure too and put on a bold air Then the cavalry have gotten into the rebels place One of us will have to get out of the way What will you have us do general

Don't you fire into my cavalry I'll tell you was the fierce rejoiner So We got this freaking mayhem going on Fast forward a little bit more They kind of sort that out I plunged into my business to make up for a minute's lost time My men were still facing too much across Aries front

and getting into the range of his fire. We had got to change that and swing to the right down the rear of the enemy's main works. It was a whirl. Every way was a front and every way was a flank. The fighting was hand to hand. I was trying to get the three angles of the triangle into something like two right angles

and it swung my left well forward, opening quite a gap in that direction when a large body of the enemy came rushing in from that flank and rear. They were in line formation with arms at something like a ready, which looked like business. I thought it was our turn to be caught between two fires and that these men were likely to cut their way through us. Rushing into the ranks of my left battalion, I shouted the order, prepared a fire by

the rear rank. My men faced about at once disregarding the enemy in the front. But at this juncture, our portness visitors threw down their muskets. and with hands and faces cried out, we surrender, running right up upon and almost over us. I was very glad of it, though more astonished,

for they outnumbered us largely. That's the kind of turn of events that you like. And it's one of those things that reminds me that he could have surrendered, right there. He could have surrendered. Hey, you know what? We're surrounded. Hey, everyone, drop your weapons.

It's that, it's going that. extra little moment, right? That extra, you know what happens in fighting, in boxing and MMA fighting, where that extra, like, I'll go one more round. Who was it? Who was that Ali Frazier? And Ali had returned to his corner saying, take off my, take off my gloves. Like, I'm done.

And they're, you know, they're basically, no, you're not done. He's like, no, I'm done. And they said, no, you're not done. So he's okay. And I think it was Frazier, said he was done. Didn't answer the bell. So he won. But it was just that.

He could have easily surrendered, but he didn't. Held on for a little bit longer. Did Hickson do that too? Like that was kind of his, do you remember when he was young against Zulu? What happened? Where he just felt like, no, I'm kind of done. And they were like, no, no, no, no. Oh, yeah, that's right.

It was Hickson for sure. He got to the, after the first round, they bring. Hickson aside and they're like hey Hickson says I'm done man I'm done like I can't this isn't gonna work I'm done I'm physically exhausted and they say no you're not done yet son but the other guy was yeah this battle continues the hardest hold up was in front of my left center the first battalion of the hundred and ninety eight Pennsylvania I wrote up to the gallant Glenn commanding it said major Glenn if you will break that line you shall have a colonel's commission.

It was a hasty utterance and the promise unmilitary perhaps, but my every energy was focused on that moment's issue. Nor did that earnest soldier need a personal inducement. He was already carrying out the general order to press the enemy before him with as much effect as we could reasonably expect. But it was deep in my mind how richly he already deserved this promotion. And I was resolved that he should get it now. It was this thought and purpose which no doubt shaped my phrase and pardoned it.

Glenn sprung among his men calling out, boys, will you follow me? Weald his horse and dashed forward without turning to see who followed, nor did he need. His words were a question, his act in order. Yeah. He doesn't say, doesn't give him an order. He literally asked the question. Will you follow me and then goes? Leadership by example and whatever kind of relationship and respect he had from his troops that when they see him go

They go his words were a question his act in order on the brave fellows go with a cheer into the hurricane of fire Their beautiful flag sways gracefully aloft with the spring of brave youth bearing it lighting the the battle smoke three times it goes down to earth covered in darkening eddies but rises ever again passing from hand to hand of dauntless young heroes then bullet torn and blood blazoned it hovers for a moment above the breastwork while the regiment goes over like a wave this i saw from my position to the left where i was pressing on the rest of my command the site wrought upon me that I snatched time to ride over and congratulate Glenn and his regiment. As I passed into a deeper shadow of the woods, I met two men bearing his body, the dripping

blood marking their path. They stopped to tell me. I saw it all too well. He had snatched a battle flag from a broken regiment trying to rally on its colors when a brute bullet of the earth once pronounced good. but since cursed for man's sin struck him down to its level I could not stop I could stop but for a moment For still on my front was rush and turmoil and tragedy I could only bend down over him from the saddle and murmur Unavailing words

General I have carried out your wishes This was his only utterance It was as if another bullet had cut through me. I fell almost across my saddle. My wish. God in heaven, no more my wish than thine. That this fair body still part of the unfallen good should be smitten to the sod. That this spirit born of thine should be quenched by the accursed. What dark misgivings searched me as I took the import of these words. What sharp sense of responsibility for those who have committed to them the issues of life and death? Why should I have not let this onset take its general

course and mend their natural chances? Why choose him out for his death? And so take on myself the awful decision into what home irreparable loss and measureless desolation should cast their unlifted burden the crowding fought choked utterance I could only bend my face low to his and answer colonel I will remember my promise I will remember you and press forward to my place where the crash and crush and agony of the struggle summoned me more to more of the same war nothing but the final infinite good for man and god can accept and justify human work like that yeah that's um massive burden that he feels just absolutely hitting him not much for me to say on that and even with that the battle's not over go forward a little bit and we had now come to the edge of a

wide field across the road and the works on the enemy's right known as the gillam field Here I came to Sheridan and Griffin My troops all up and well in hand A sharp cavalry fight was going on In which some of Aries men and my own had taken part When our line was checked at the last angle Griffin had ordered one of Crawford's colonels to advance The colonel

A brave, well-balanced man replied that Where soldiers as good as Griffin's men had failed he did not feel warranted in going in without proper orders. Very well, I order you in, says Griffin, without adding that he did it as commander of the Corps. So there's a colonel sitting there, and there's this battle going on,

and Griffin says, hey, you need to get in there. And the colonel says, well, hey, I don't think I should go in there. If these guys can't get it done, I don't think I should go in there unless I'm under orders. And Griffin says, very well, then I order you in. So he gives a little pushback, hey, this doesn't seem like a great call, and then he gets told you're going in. The gallant Colonel bows. It is Richardson of the 7th Wisconsin, grasps his regimental colors in his own hand, significant of the need of his resolution in face of it, and rides forward in advance of his men.

what can they do but follow such example general Warren with intensity of feeling that is now desperation snatches his core flag from the hands of its bearer and dashes up to Richardson's side and so the two leaders ride the core commander and his last visible colonel colors aloft reckless of the growing distance between them and their followers straight for the smoking line straight for the flaming edge not hesitating at the breastworks, over they go, one with swelling tumult of soul, where the passion of suffering craves outburst in action, the other with obedience and self-devotion, love-like, stronger than death, over the breastworks, down among the astonished foe, one of whom instinct overmastering admiration aims at the foremost a deadly blow,

which the noble youth rushes forward to Perry and shielding with his own breast of his certain of his uncarrying commander falls to earth bathing his colors with his blood need more be told do men tarry at such a point one crested wave sweeps on another broken rolls away all is lost and all is one Slowly Warren returns over the somber field So that's just an unbelievable scene You know it's just an unbelievable scene If you tried to make that in a movie it wouldn't seem realistic

That this guy Richardson gets told hey you need to charge He says I don't think I should do that without proper orders His boss says these are your orders go and as he takes off towards the melee, the overall leader, without saying a word, just grabs his flag and joins him by his side. Once they get to the enemy lines,

somebody takes aim at Warren, and Richardson basically jumps in front of it. He says blow. I don't know if it was a shot or if it was a sword or what it was, but I'm assuming he was shot. and Richardson takes the round. I mean, you consider like an enemy breastworks and they're coming over it in their horses.

And then once they come over, they got to be in and amongst them. So it could have been either. Could have been a sword, I guess. Bayonet. Bayonet. Yeah. Yep.

And then this happens. As it is forsaken, at its forsaken edge, a staff officer hands him. This is Warren. So Warren walks back after this or rides back after this. And a staff officer hands him a crude field order. Partly by the lurid flashes of the last guns, partly by the light of the dying day, he reads,

quote, major general Warren commanding the fifth army corps is relieved from duty and will at once report for orders to lieutenant general, general grant, commanding armies of the United States. by command of major general Sheridan, end quote. So he just got fired. With almost the agony of death upon his face, Warren approaches Sheridan and asks him if he cannot reconsider the order. Reconsider hell.

I don't reconsider my decisions. Obey the order. That was the last thunderbolt on Warren's heart. The battle has done its worst for him. The iron has entered his soul. So all that kind of mayhem and disorganization and all those different orders and stuff caused eventually him to get fired and There's some details in the book about him moving too slow him not being at the front

So fast forward a little bit suddenly emerged from the shadow a compact form with vigorous stride unlike the measure and mood of ours and a voice that would itself have thrilled us had it not had not the import of it thrilled us more gentlemen says sheridan as we have started to our feet i've come to see you i may have spoken harshly to some of you today but i would not have it hurt you you know how it is we had to carry this place and i was fretted all day till it was done you must forgive me i know it is hard for the men too, but we must push. There's more for us to do together. I appreciate and thank you all. And this is Phil Sheridan, a new view of him surely and amazingly. All the repressed feeling of our hearts sprung out toward him. We were ready to blame ourselves if we had been in any way the cause

of his trouble. But we thought we had borne a better part than that. So this guy Sheridan, who He's been parking orders and stuff all day, now rolls in after he fires Warren and says, hey, guys, look, I know it was hard today. But I'm sorry. I was wrong. You know, you must forgive me. He's asking for forgiveness. And, I mean, it landed apparently really well, you know.

Because reading this, it's really apparent that Chamberlain is sympathetic to. one and ain't all that thrilled with Sheridan. And then, you know, you see his response there when Sheridan was smart. Yeah. Takes ownership of it. It's taken ownership of it and regaining some leadership capital because apologizing requires to do huge checking your ego. And I can't think of a situation where anyone loses respect for you when you apologize.

Yeah. Yeah. this is a good case of that um yeah we just went through that whole thing with uh with joe rogan and you know him apologizing and there was a bunch of people and i i just basically tried to lend support to him and saying that hey let's the guys apologized forgiveness is a a virtue that we should all try and go after and try and represent and so in somebody makes a mistake you know that's what forgiveness is for and a bunch of people not a bunch of people what some people were saying you should never

apologize no it's never I hear that too with leaders leaders say oh it's a weak to apologize man if you mess something up then apologize and and hey in in a minimum if I say something to you that maybe maybe I offended you well what did I want to offend you and if I didn't maybe if maybe if it's a you know I say Well, Jesus, Jason, you know, you and your stupid freaking blonde hair, right? You know, and all of a sudden I realized that, you know, you used to get picked on for that. And even though I meant it as a joke, but it offended you. Does that mean, well, hey, I didn't know.

I didn't know that you used to get picked on because of that. I'm not apologizing. No, it's actually, hey, man, I'm sorry. The way I said it and the thing that I didn't know was going to offend you, offended you. And I'm sorry about that. Like, there's nothing wrong when you make a mistake of saying sorry. Nothing wrong. What I really appreciated about Rogan's apology is that he wasn't sidestepping any consequences.

Yeah. Well, you know, just because you say or sorry doesn't mean there are no consequence. Hey, it's all good. I apologize. No. But he took ownership of what happened. He wasn't trying to weasel out of any consequences. And I thought that it was a huge lesson on what the right thing to do is when something comes out.

I actually gained quite a bit of respect. I had a fair amount of respect for Joe before that, but his apology was heartfelt and sincere and wasn't an attempt to avoid consequences, which is awesome. And when you make a mistake as a leader, when you pick the wrong plan, when I say, hey, Jason, I want you to, you know,

can you prep this freaking brief for me? And then it turns out we don't need to do the brief, and I'm like, hey, man, I know you worked for two weeks on that thing and we didn't need to even do it. I'm sorry, man. As opposed to saying, well, you know, we could have used it or whatever. Just making up the big cover up, the big lie. Yeah.

You know, hey, man, I'm so sorry. I know you wasted two weeks working on that briefing. We ended up not using it. I should have done a better, I should have done more groundwork to make sure we were going to need it. And I'm sorry. Your respect for me doesn't go down. It goes up. You know, it's like I was wrong.

And when I when it was when as I'm reading this and I'm and I'm like oh God here come Sharon again. He's going to yell at him. And then he I'm like, oh, look at him go. He's apologizing. And then he writes about like, hey, we were all. As soon as he did that, he completely flipped their feelings towards him. Yep.

A new view of him surely and amazingly. That's such a great case for taking ownership and apologizing when you screw something up. He's talking a little bit about about the the personalities and the attitudes. And one thing he's talking about Sheridan. So this is sort of a detached moment. He says Sheridan does not entrench. He pushes on carrying his flank and rear with him, rushing, flashing, smashing. He transfuses into his subordinates the vitality and energy of his purpose, transforms them into part of his own mind and

He shows the power of a commander inspiring both confidence and fear as a rule our core and army commanders were men of brains rather than magnetism They relied on brains in others Warren was one of these he was well capable of organizing an entire plan of battle on a great field He would have been an admirable chief of staff of the army So again this is the personality of Warren Warren was like not a dynamic character charismatic individual. He was good at planning. Their brains outweigh temperament. So when you're coming up with the plan, your brains are more important. He could see the whole comprehensively and adjusts the parts to subordinate. But he had a certain ardor of temperament, which, although it

brought him distinction as a subordinate commander, seemed to work against him as a core commander. Yeah, this is, man, you got it, you got to, you got to adjust. Look, well, we'll get into it. Well, we'll just do it now. Look, if you are the second in command, if you're the chief operating option, you got to make things happen. And you're the one that goes, hey, Jason, you need to get this shit done right now. And you're like, yeah, got it, boss. And then I elevate to being the CEO.

I need to change my behavior. And I need to be the bigger personality, the more positive personality. that's what I need to do. The more charismatic, the more dynamic. I don't want to be the one in the weeds when I'm overall in charge. Now, if I have the personality where like, hey, I'm a great at coming up with the plans and this is the way we're going to do this, that's cool. But when I promote above that and now I've got to show the vision, you've got to adjust and you've got to grow and you've got to mature. And by the way, sometimes you go back down to that position because you could be leading a vision.

department where you got to be kind of charismatic and and then you get promoted to CEO now you got to be like a little bit more of the planner and a little bit more mechanical and then you get promoted to CEO and now you got to be back to the dynamic individual again so the so part of the reason I want to say that is because yes you have a personality we all have a personality but you don't necessarily you know have to behave the same way and like I when I was an assistant platoon commander. You know, I had to subdue some of my enthusiasm about things.

When I was more into the detailed planning. Hey, I got that paperwork. Let me run that. When I was a platoon commander, all of a sudden I stepped up into the more dynamic role, got out of the details. And that's what you're going to have to do throughout your career. And you have to pay attention to what your personality sort of lends itself to. There was guys that I worked for that were executive officers, the number two in command at a SEAL team, and they were great executive officers.

As commanding officers, maybe not so great. There was people that were great commanding officers as executive officers, maybe not so great. They just have a personality. But at least you should know where your parent personality is and immodulate your personality to the job that you're in. Yeah, and the only way you're going to do that is to detach. Yeah, no. That's the only way. Otherwise, you're just swept away by your personality.

Yeah. And I, so in the Navy every two years you're promoting. Right about the time you figure out how to do that job, you get up to the next job. And then you're doing the next job like that last job for a little while until you figure things out. Hopefully you figure it out. It didn't, it didn't just work out for Warren. And there's a whole bunch of circumstances where things didn't work out for one. And maybe in other circumstances, he would have been fine.

But it didn't sound like he was the dynamic leader. And that is a hard thing to do because you're going to start out doing what you know. And unless you're willing to take feedback. And so, you know, the 360 feedback is something that we started doing in the teams. And so you'd get feedback from your subordinates. And that's painful to hear to look at that stuff sometimes. you're like, oh, but it's so liberating because you're like, oh, okay. And you can tell when you read the feedback on who's, and kissing ass and who's just angry about everything

and they're just going to be angry about it. And who's giving you honest feedback? It's like, oh, I got to stop doing that or adjust that or I'm stepping on that guy's toes and pull it back. Still here talking about Warren. He said it led him to go in personally. with a single division or brigade when a sharp fight came on doing this when he when having a larger command one takes a risk of losing grasp of the hole so he's going into that like hey I'm used to doing this job down in the weeds I'm going to get down the weeds that was what he

did trying to change the front with Crawford's division under fire it was a difficult thing he put his personality into it which is what you just said Jason just as Sheridan would do and did in this very fight um there's a whole section that covers some of that criticism about Warren and his subordinates. And Chamberlain goes on to say, these accusations against the conduct of each of Warren's divisions, while susceptible of being magnified and manipulated so as to produce a certain forensic effect, are of no substantial weight.

Even if true, in the sharpest sense, so even if Warren's subordinates were totally jacked up, look, he's saying, look, you can create, you can look in the back, and say like, oh, these guys were bad, this guy did this wrong, this guy did that wrong, and you can produce a certain forensic effect. But even if that's true, in the sharpest sense, they would be overstrained and uncalled for considering how the battle ended and by whom it was mainly fought.

In a military and highly proper sense, General Warren was responsible for the conduct of his core and ultimately for that of each of his division. There you have it. You got people that work for you. You got departments under you, got divisions underneath you, you got platoons or battalions or companies underneath you. You are responsible for what all those people do. There are two ways in which such control might be exercised by prevention or by correction.

So I'm either going to say, Jason, you know what, you're not doing this job well. You're not doing this job. You're fired. Or, hey, Jason, you're not doing this job well. Here's the corrections you need to make. that's what you do. Or, hey, Jason, I know that you're going to set everything on fire. Don't set everything on fire.

Which is correction, right? Yeah. Which is prevent. But preemptive, right? Yes, that's prevention. Yeah. Prevention. It was Crawford's duty to keep his vital connection with Ares.

And if in any way, should be broken to be on the alert to see an act. Warren should hold him responsible for that. And if he knew he could not at the start rouse Crawford, whose peculiarity he knew to a vivid conception of the anatomy and physiology of the case, he should have had a staff officer charged with the duty of keeping Crawford closed on Aries while he himself at the point where he could keep in touch with his whole core and hold Griffin under his hand at the ready and trusted reserve prepared for the unexpected. So he's saying the same thing you and I just said. Like if echoes a little bit of a wild man and I'm not quite sure who's going to do, cool.

I take Jason, my trusted guy and say, hey man, go. with Echo, let me know what he's doing. He gets a little wild sometimes. You and Dave call that preemptive ownership. Preemptive ownership. Good deal, Dave. There you go. Cover down.

I got to pick up the slack. And now we get to Appomatics. Appomatics. Fast forward in a little bit. I'm about to speak of what came under my observation and the action at Appomatics, courthouse, and the circumstances attending the surrender

of the Army of Northern Virginia, April 9th, 1865. So now they're 20, 25 miles or so from five forks, the battle that they were just in. This is a week later, eight days later, something like that. They had to march that time. He says the fifth corps had a very hard march that day, made more so in the afternoon and night by the lumbering obstructions of the rear of Ord's tired column by courtesy given the road before us the incessant check fretting our men almost a mutiny.

We had been rushed all day to keep up with the cavalry, but this constant checking was worse. We did not know that Grant had set orders to the Fifth Court to march all night without halting, but it was not necessary for us to know it. After 29 miles of this kind of marching at the blackest hour of night, human nature had called a halt, dropping by the roadside left and right wet or dry down went men as in a swoon swoon officers slid out of the saddle loosened the girth slipped an arm through the loop of a bridle rain and sunk to sleep horses stood with drooping heads just above their master's faces all dreaming one knows not of what of past or coming possible or faded

Scarcely is the first broken dream begun When a cavalry man comes splashing down the road And vigorously dismounts pulling from his jacket A crumpled note The sentinel standing watch by his commander worn in body But alert in every sense touches your shoulder orders sir I think You rise on your elbow strike a match And with smarting streaming eyes read the brief

Thrilling note from Sheridan like this as I remember Quote I have cut across the enemy at Appomatics station and captured three of his trains. If you can possibly push your infantry up here tonight, we will have great results in the morning. End quote. Ah, no more sleep. The startling bugle notes the ring out to the march. Word is sent for the men to take a bite of such as they had for food.

The promised rations would not be up till noon. And by that time we should be where? They don't even know they are their men shivering to their senses as if written out of risen out of the earth But something in them not of it now sounds the forward for the last time in our long drawn strife and they move these men Sleepless supperless breakfastless sore footed stiff jointed sense be numbed But with flushed faces pressing for the front Some hard men. Freaking hard.

They march. Eventually they arrive on station. I ride straight to Sheridan a dark smile and impetus gesture are my only orders. Forward into double lines of battle, pass Sheridan his guns as cavalry and on for the quivering crest. For a moment, it is a glorious sight. Every arm of the service in full play, cavalry are tipped. infantry then a sudden shift shifting scene as the cavalry disengaged by successive squadrons rally under their bugle calls with beautiful precision and promptitude and sweep like a storm

cloud beyond our right to close in on the enemy's left and complete the fateful envelopment we take up battle Gregory follows in on my left it is a formidable wit front we make the scene darkens in a few minutes the tide is turned the income wave is at high flood the barrier recedes in truth the stone wall men hardly show their well-proved metal they seem astonished to see before them familiar flags of their old antagonists not having thought it possible that we could match our cavalry and march around and across their pressing columns and i don't think i did a good job of laying out the way that went but these soldiers had marched to keep up with the cavalry and had gotten there in 29 miles in a very short period of time.

Their last hope is gone to break through our cavalry before our infantry can get up. Neither to Danville nor to Lynchburg can they cut their way. And close upon their rear, five miles away, are pressing the second and sixth core of the Army of the Potomac. It is the end. They are now giving way, but keep up good front by force of old habit. Halfway up the slope they make a stand with what perhaps they think a good omen behind a stone wall I try a little artillery on them which directs their thoughts towards the crest behind them and stiffens my lines for a rush anxious for that crust myself crest myself

but now comes up ord with a positive order don't expose your lines on that crest the enemy have masked their guns to have to give it a raking fire the moment you set foot there I thought I saw a qualifying look as he turned away but left alone youth struggled with prudence my troops were in a bad position down here I did not like to be the do the underdog it was much better to be on top and at least know what was there beyond so I thought of Grant and his permission to quote push things when we got them going and of Sheridan and his last words as he wrote away with his cavalry, smiting his hands together, quote, now smash him.

I tell you, smash him, end quote. So we took this for orders. And on the crest we stood. One booming cannon shot past close along our front, and in the next moment, all was still. So he gets told, don't go up to that crest. But he's in a bad situation anyways, and he thinks, hey, I'm, this isn't good what are some other orders I've received recently well I've also got told to push things I've also got told to smash them so I'm gonna take some initiative here and we're going we're

going to get to that crest and when he gets up there turns out there's just one cannon shop we had done it had exposed ourselves to the view of the enemy but it was an exposure that worked two ways for there burst upon our vision a mighty scene fit cadence the story of tumultuous years, encompassed by the cordon of steel that crowned the heights about the courthouse on the slopes of the valley formed by the sources of the Appomattox, lay the remnants of that far-famed army, counterpart and companion of our own in momentous history, the army of Northern Virginia, Lee's Army. And so now he's standing up in this position, looking down and can see the entire scene from his elevated position,

and including the Appomatics. Appomatics. Sorry. Around, and here's what he describes, around its edges, now trodden to Meyer, swarms an indescribable crowd, worn-out soldiers struggling to the front, demoralized citizen and denizen,

white, black in all shades between, following Lee's army or flying before these suddenly confronted terrible Yankees pictured to them as demon shape and bent animals too of all forms and grades vehicles of every description and non-description public and domestic four-wheeled or two or one heading and moving in every direction a swarming mass of chaotic confusion so with a fervor of devout joy as when perhaps the old crusaders first caught sight of the holy city of their quest with an uproaring of heart that was half pagan half prayer we dash forward to the consummation a solitary field piece in the edge of town gives an angry but expiring defiance we press down the little slope

through a little swamp over a bright swift stream our advances already in the town only the narrow street between the opposing lines and hardly that there is wild work that looks frightening, but not much killing, nor even hurting. The disheartened enemy take it easy. Our men take them easier. It is a wild, mild fusing, earnest, but not deadly earnest. A young orderly of mine unable to contain himself begs permission to go forward and dashes in, sword flourishing as if he was a terrible fellow. His demonstration. seemingly more amusing than resisted for he soon comes back hugging four sabres to his breast speechless at his achievement new guy going in so you can see the the Confederate

army is kind of falling apart and these guys are charging in expecting a fight and there's just not that much of a fight and then this suddenly rose to our sight another form close in our own front a soldierly young figure handsomely dressed and mounted a confederate staff officer undoubtedly to whom some of my advance line seem to be pointing my position now i see the white flag earnestly born and it's possible purport sweeps before my inner vision like a wraith of morning mist he comes steadily on the mysterious form in gray my mood so whimsical sensitive that I could even smile at the material of the flag, wondering where in either army was found a towel and one so white.

But it bore a mighty message. That simple emblem of homely service wafted hitherward above the dark and crimsoned streams that never can wash themselves away. The messenger draws near, dismounts with graceful salutation, and hardly suppressed emotion delivers his message. Sir, I am from General Gordon. General Lee desires a cessation of hostilities until he can hear from General Grant as to the proposal of surrender. What word is this? So long, so dearly fought for, so feverishly dreamed, but never, but ever snatched away, held hidden and aloof, now smiting the senses with dizzy flash. surrender we had no rumor of this from the long messages that had been passing between grant

and lee for now these two days between behind us surrender it takes a moment to gather one speech sir i answer that matter exceeds my authority i will send to my superior general lee is right he can do no more all this with a forced calmness covering a tumult of heart and brain I bid him wait a while and the message goes up to my Corps commander General Griffin leaving me mazed at the boating change even here he's trying to remain calm like purposely forced calmness now from the right come foaming up in cavalry fashion two forms I'd watched from away beyond a white flag again held strong a loft making straight for the little group beneath our battle flag

Highborn also the red Maltese cross on a white field that had thrilled hearts long ago. I see now that is one of our cavalry staff in the lead. Indeed, I recognize him, Colonel Whitaker of Custer's staff, and hardly keeping pace with him a Confederate staff officer. Without dismounting, without salutation, the cavalryman shouts, this is unconditional surrender, this is the end. then he hastily introduces his companion and adds I am just from Gordon and Longstreet Gordon says for God's sake stop this infantry or hell will be to pay

I'll go to Sheridan he adds and dashes away with a white flag leaving Longstreet's aid with me the captains cry halt the rebels want to surrender the more men want to be there and see it still to the front where the real fun is and the forward takes an upward turn for when we do succeed in stopping their advance we cannot keep their arms and legs from flying to the top of fences and haystacks and chimneys they clamber to toss their old caps higher in the air and leave the earth as far below

as they can dear old general gregory gallops up to inquire the meaning of this strange departure from a custom discipline only that lee wants time to surrender i answer glory to god roars the grave and brave old general. Your legs have done it, my men, he shouts, galloping up cap in hand, generously forgiving our disobedience of orders and rash exposure on the dubious crest. True enough, their legs had done it, had matched the cavalry, as Grant admitted,

had cut around Lee's best doings and commanded the grand halt. But other things had done it. The blood was still fresh upon the Quaker Road, the white oak ridge, Five Forks, Farmville, High Bridge, and Sailors Creek. And we take somewhat gravely this compliment of our new commander of the Army of the James. At last, after pardoning something to the spirit of liberty, we get things quiet along the lines. One o'clock comes.

No answer from Lee. Nothing for us but to shake hands and take arms to resume hostilities. As I turned to go, General Griffin said to me in a low voice. prepare to make or receive an attack in 10 minutes it was a sudden change in tone in our relations and brought a queer sensation where my troops had halted the opposing lines were in close proximity the men stacked arms the men had stacked arms and were resting in place it did not seem like war we were going to recommence but willful murder but the order was only to prepare and that we did

Our troops were in good position, my advance line across the road, and we stood fast, intensely waiting. I had mounted and sat looking at the scene before me, thinking of all that was impending and depending, when I felt it coming upon. A strange sense of some presence, invisible but powerful, like those unearthly visitants told of an ancient story charged with supernatural message. disquieted I turned about And there behind me Riding in between my two lines Appeared a commanding form Superbly mounted richly accoutred

Of imposing bearing Noble countenance With expression of deep sadness Overmastered by deeper strength It is no other than Robert E. Lee And seen by me for the first time Within my own lines I sat immovable with a certain

awe and admiration he was coming with a single staff officer for the great appointed meeting which was to determine momentous issues not long after by another in leading road appeared another form plain unassuming simple and familiar to our eyes but but to the thought as much inspiring as Lee in his splendor and his sadness it is grant he too comes with a single a a staff officer of Sheridan's slouched hat without cord common soldier blouse unbuttoned on which however the four stars high boots mud splash to the top trousers tucked inside no sword but the sword hand deep in the pocket sitting his saddle with the ease of a born master taking no notice of anything at all all his faculties gathered into intense thought and mighty calm he seemed greater than i'd ever seen him a look of another world about him no wonder I forgot altogether to salute him anything like that would have been too little too little staff officers are flying crying Lee surrenders

ah there was some kind of strength left among those worn and famished men belting the hills around the springs of Appomattocks who rent the air with shouting and uproar as if the earth and see it joined the song. Our men did what they thought their share and then went to sleep as they had need to do. But in the opposite camp, they acted as if they got of hold of something too good to keep and gave it to the stars. Besides, they had supper that night, which was something of a novelty. For we had divided rations with our old antagonists now, they were by our side as suffering

brothers. So they're, well, in truth, Longstreet had come over to our camp that evening with an unwanted moisture on his martial cheek and compressed words on his lips. Gentlemen, I must speak plainly. We are starving over there. For God's sake, can you send us something? We were men and we acted like men, knowing we should suffer it for ourselves. We were too short rationed also. and had been for days, but must be for days to come. We sent over to that starving camp, share and share alike for all there with ourselves. Again, that's like amazing to the sort of mutual respect almost instantly

to try and help out your enemy. How about Longstreet's coming over by you're not sending a staff officer or anybody else he's going to say, hey, bring my guy. some food so there's some forgiveness this was also interesting late that night I was summoned to headquarters where general Griffin informed me that I was to command the parade on the occasion of the formal surrender of the arms and colors of Lee's army he said the Confederates had begged hard to be allowed to stack their arms on the ground where they were and let us go pick them up after they had gone so that was their plan the

Confederate said, hey, let us just leave our weapons and we're going to bail. But Grant did not think this quite respectful enough to anybody, including the United States of America. And while he would have all private property respected and would permit officers to retain their sidearms, he insisted that surrender, that the surrendering army as such should march out in due order and lay down all tokens of Confederate authority and organized hostility to the United States in an immediate presence of some. representative portion of the Union Army. Griffin added in a significant tone that Grant

wished the ceremony to be as simple as possible and that nothing should be done to humiliate the manhood of the Southern soldiers. So there's like a little balance there. Like, hey, we'll share some food with you, but you got to come and you got to come and surrender proper. It was now the morning of the 12th of April. I had been ordered to have my lines formed for the ceremony of at sunrise it was a chill gray morning depressing to the senses we formed along the principal street we were the remnants also massachusetts main maryland michigan pennsylvania new york veterans and replaced veterans cut to pieces cut down consolidated divisions into brigades regiments into one gathered by state origin back to their place of birth this list

little line, quintessence, a metacychosis of Porter's old core of Gaines, Mill, of Maverin Hill, men of near blood-born made nearer by bloodshed. Those facing us, now thank God the same. Our earnest eyes can scan the busy groups on the opposite slopes, breaking camp for the last time, taking down the little shelter tents and folding them carefully as precious things then slowly forming ranks as for unwelcome duty and now they move the dusky swarms forge forward into gray columns of march on they come with the old swinging root step and swaying battle flags instructions had been given and when the head of each division column comes opposite our camp our bugle sounds the signal and instantly our whole line from right to left regiment by regiment in succession gives the soldiers salutation from the order arms to the old carry the marching salute Gordon at the head of the column riding with heavy spirit and downcast face catches the sound of shifting arms looks up and taking the meaning wheels superbly making himself in his horse one

uplifted figure with the profound salutation as he drops the point of his sword to the boot toe then facing to his own command gives word for successive brigades to pass us with the same position of manual honor answering for honor our part on our part not a sound of trumpet nor roll of drum not a cheer nor word of whisper of vain gloring nor motion of a man standing again at the order but an awed stillness rather and breath holding as if it were the passing of the dead. They fix bayonets, stack arms, then hesitantly remove cartridge boxes and lay them down.

Lastly, reluctantly, with agony of expression, they tenderly fold their flags, battle worn and torn, blood-stained, heart-holding colors, and lay them down. Some frenzedly rushing from the ranks, kneeling over them, clinging to them, pressing them to their lips with burning tears, and only the flag of the union greets the sky. What visions thronged as we looked into each other's eyes? Here past the men of

Antietam, the bloody lane, the sunken road, the cornfield, the Burnside Bridge, the men whom stonewalled Jackson on the second night at Fredericksburg begged Lee to let him take and crush the two core of the Army of the Potomac, huddled in the streets in the darkness and confusion. The men who swept the 11th Corps at Chancellorville, who left 6,000 of their companions around the bases of colps and cemetery hills at Gettysburg, these survivors of the terrible wilderness, the bloody angle at Spotsylvania, the slaughter pen of Cold Harbor, the whirlpool of Bethesda Church. Here comes Cobbs, Georgia Legion, which held the stone wall on Mary's Heights at Frederisburg, close before which we piled. are dead for breastwork so that the living might stay alive. Here too come Gordon's Georgians and hoaxed North Carolinians, who stood before the terrific mine explosion at Petersburg and advancing retook the smoking crater and the dismal heaps of dead,

ours more than theirs, huddled in the ghastly chasm. Here are the men of McGowan's hunting and scales who broke the fifth coral lines on the White Oak Road and we're so desperately driven back on that forlorn night of March the 31st by thrice decimated brigade. Now comes Anderson's fourth core. Only Bushrod and Bushrod Johnson's division left. And this the rebbinant of those we fought so fiercely on Quaker Road two weeks ago with Wise's Legion too fierce for its own good.

Here passes the proud. Remnant of Ramsons North Ransoms North Carolinians who were swept through five forks ten days ago and all The little that was left of this division in the sharp passages at Sailors Creek five days thereafter Now makes its last front AP Hill's old core Heth now at the lead since Hill had gone too far forward ever to return The men who poured destruction into our division at Shepherdstown Ford and Tiedom and say when Hill reported the Potomac the Potomac running blue with our bodies the men who opened the desperate first day's fight at Gettysburg Where withstanding them so stubbornly our Robinson's brigade lost 1,185 men and the iron brigade alone

1,153 these men of Hath's division here to losing 2,850 men Companions of these now looking into our faces so differently now the sad great pageant long street and his men what shall we give them for greeting that has not already been spoken in volleys of thunder and written in lines of fire all over the banks of Virginia shall we go back to Gaines Mill or Maverne Hill or to Antietam or of Maryland or Gettysburg of Pennsylvania deepest graven of all for here is what remains of Kershaw's division which left 40% of its men at Antietam and at Gettysburg with Barksdale and

Sam's brigade tore through the peach orchard rolling up our rolling up the right of our gallant third core sweeping over the proud batteries of Massachusetts Bigelow and Phillips where under the smoke we saw earth brown and blue with prostrated bodies of men and horses and the tongues have overturned cannon pointing grim and stark in the air then in the wilderness and at Sponsylvania Kershaw again in deeds of awful glory and thereafter for all their losses holding their name and fame until fate met them at Sailors Creek where all but these with Kershaw himself and Ewell and so many more gave up their arms and hopes

all indeed but manhood's honor with what strange emotion I looked into these faces before which in the mad assault river on Reeves salient June 18th 64 I was left for dead under their eyes

it is by miracles we have lived to see this day any of us standing here now comes the sinewy remnant of fierce hoods division which at Gettysburg we saw pouring through the devil's den and plum run gorge turning again by the left our stubborn third core then swarming up the rocky bastions of

roundtop to be met there by equal valor which changed lee's whole plan of battle and perhaps the story of gettysburg ah is this pickets division this little group left of those who on the lurid last day of gettysburg breasted level crossfire and thunderbolts of storm to be strewn back drifting wrecks where after that awful, futile, pitiful charge, we buried them in graves of furlong wide with names unknown. Men again in the terrible cyclone sweep over the breastworks at five forks, met now so thin, so pale, purged of the mortal, as if knowing pain or joy no more.

How could we help falling on our knees all of us together and praying God to pity and forgive us? us all. You know, I don't know if you can capture the emotions that these guys must have felt on both sides at this juncture, but that must be a pretty close proximity to at least the best you could do to capture those emotions. And there's another, the book goes on, and there's a powerful section where he, because that sectionary, you know, he kind of calls out name by name, the various units.

and there's a section where there's a parade for the Army of the Potomac. And it's incredibly powerful as well. And he goes by unit by unit. There's one point where he brings up the fact that while Warren was, Warren, there was basically a trial because Warren said, hey, I shouldn't have been fired. He wanted to kind of redeem himself. And he brings up a point where someone was asking,

one of the cross-examining lawyers, Ask Warren, hey, when you're in this battle, where were your regulars? And Warren looks at him with a bold and quivering lip and says, buried, sir, at Gettysburg. And yeah, it's hard to do this book justice without just reading the entire thing. And there's just stories upon stories in this book. And lessons, so many lessons that we. We barely touched into. Like I said before, if you get a chance to go to Gettysburg, go there.

Go there. We go there. If you want to come there with us, go check that out. But there's one more section that I wanted to cover in the book. Joshua Chamberlain is he's with some of his surviving troops in Maine. And there had been some kind of scrambling of the organization. The 20th May to become combined with the 16th and the second and the war's finished and I tried to figure out how long after the war this was I'm not I couldn't

Couldn't quite identify when exactly this was but they're at a banquet and Chamberlain You know this whole both these podcasts we were talking about the flags and the meaning of these colors right? What they meant what they represented and During the defense of Little Round Top at some point they had lost their colors. At some point, you know, during this freaking mayhem, they lost their colors and it, you know, this is a symbolic event. Like I said, like you were saying, it's a tactical event. There's actually a tactical reason for those colors, but it's also symbolic as well.

And at some point, these, during the Battle of Gettysburg, and I'm not exactly sure when it I don't even know if it was during roundtop that defense, but at some point the soldiers from Maine, the colors were lost for a little while. And Chamberlain wants to address that directly to the surviving troops in this speech. And I just want to read one section of it. He says, your colors, it was said, were lost. That word came to me when on the morning of the second I reached the crest far to the rear of that where you had stood. And I felt a shock, but not of shame. For I knew something terrible must have befallen

and that there could have been no dishonor where you were. But when I came to know the truth of it all, I saw that instead of your colors being lost, they were eternally saved, not laid down but lifted up. Not captured nor surrendered, but translated the shadow lost in substance, the flag. It is the symbol of the country's honor, power, law, and life. It is the ensign of loyalty, the bond of brotherhood for those who stand under it, a token and an inspiration. Hence, it is held sacred by the soldier, as in great moments it is also by the citizen, all which that flag symbolized you had illustrated and impersonated, had absorbed into your thoughts and hearts.

If I should not rather say, itself had absorbed your thoughts and hearts, your service and suffering into its own deep. meaning and dearer honor now it had done all the symbol could do you had stood for it all now the supreme moment had come nothing could be averted nothing could be resisted nothing could be escaped that was an awful moment passing that of death it seems to me then a new soul is born no thought of yielding up the token of the country's honor enters the heart of any one of you, though it has fulfilled its ends. Though you are to go to prison and death, your colonel, calm and dauntless, commander still, bids you break the staff that abhorne at a loft and tear that symbol, single as your souls

into many pieces as you had bosoms, and shelter them with your lives, lest that flag be touched by hostile hand or triumphed over living man. Lost, there is a way of losing that is finding. When soul over masters sense, when the noble and divine self overcomes the lower self, when duty and honor and love, immortal things, bid the mortal perish. it is only when a man supremely gives that he supremely finds that was your sacrifice

that is your reward when we talked about the surrender it was him describing it and you know later parts of the books you find out that that salute that they gave to the Confederates they weren't ordered to do that. He just straight up did that out of chivalry.

And then as the Confederates are coming past, and they think that the, you know, they're like, ah, man, you know, their heads are down and they see that, you know, they think the Union armies are making fun of them or laughing at them or scoffing at them. And they receive that salute. And they give the salute back.

It's just incredible, incredible description. Yeah, it's, I don't know what else I can do. Do the audio book, I think, at some point. Just freaking sit here and read this whole thing. And your best main accent. Yeah, my best main accent. I'll also work. I apologize that sometimes I pronounce words wrong.

And I'm sorry. I'm just kind of reading it, and I don't feel like doing nine takes to say words that I can't say very well. So I apologize about that, that I don't do that justice. But so many lessons in this book, just about how to be a good human being. And I still, I know we just did two podcasts on it, but it's, there's so much in there. This guy is such an incredible example, the way he lived, the things he did, his attitude. And really, you know, some people talk about the divisiveness, you know, in America right now. And, you know, you hear people say, oh, it's never been this bad before.

Well, you know what? It has. It's been freaking infinitely worse, infinitely worse. And the fact that you could go through a divisiveness so incredibly, incredibly violent. I mean, this is our war where we just, it was a slaughter. Just think about that last podcast, the things that the descriptions he's giving on those battlefields. But if we as a nation can go through that, that insane violence, and at the end of that, at the end of that, at the end of killing each other, wholesale slaughtering each other, at the end of that, the very men that fought each other, that killed each other, those very men, can stand and salute each other and respect each other and decide that we should stay a union

if we as a country can get through that then i only can hope that we can move past some of the bickering that we have today and hold up this flag and unify all of us together to continue to provide a place in the world with freedom for all so thanks for listening thanks for your support in what we're doing like i said if you want to come out you want to hang out with myself and jason and the rest of the on front team you want to walk these battlefields you want to feel some freaking emotions you want to have a spiritual experience come and check out these events that we do we got in May the 11th and 12th and May the 13th and 14th at Gettysburg and then we're going also to Little Big Horn in August 16th 17th and then another

session 18th and 19th Come and check it out. If you can't go with us and read these books, think about what these people went through. Think about what they overcame. It's history, and we should never forget. We should never forget this history that we have in this country. And what we've been through.

We've been through a ton. We can't forget that. It should keep us together. What else, Echo, Charles? This is the old-school decompression scenario? actually the small thing I thought it's not not quite as serious but I will say this so you know it's what is it about when you have like enemies right or even people who just don't like each other no one any form of like enemy and then they go through like all this like

ups and downs and they fight each other or and then at the end like they become friends or whatever maybe they reconcile and they become friends what what is it about that that makes everyone feel so good afterwards. I would say part of it is the shared struggle, right? You've been through some shit. I've been through some shit. Okay. Like there's a shared struggle, even if we're on opposing it.

I mean, you think of a football game. You play a good game against someone, and it's a scrap, and you're throwing down, it's muddy, and it's close. Like, when you say good game to that person, you mean it, right? You mean it. So I think that shared struggle. And then, you know, like part of it has got to be like, thank God, this is over. You know, I got that feeling from the Southern soldiers that they were like, thank God, this is over.

Like, I'm done. Yeah. And I mean, there's an opportunity for redemption, right? When you're fighting someone and they're your enemy and then at the end of it, we're like, hey, we're not enemies anymore. Right. There's the redemption. There's an end to it. Because if we keep holding that animosity, it never ends.

And there's no, there's no healing. There's nothing else like that. And so like, you know, you didn't cover it. But like, there's, what you did were they're sharing their meals, but they were, they were trading stuff for like, there was like an intermingling there for a couple hours where they were trading souvenirs with one another. And that's incredible when you're talking about men that, and a couple hours before that had walked all freaking night and part of the day to kill one another.

And now they're just like, oh, we're done. Yeah. And by the way, they just killed each other a week before that and a month before that and six months before that. You know, this is just a bloody, bloody, bloody awful war. It's like the Christmas story in World War I. Yeah. It's an indicator that we're not bad. Yeah.

It's one of those things where these, these, you know, great things happens. And it indicates that we're just, we're not. Like, sure, we're flawed as human beings. but we're not flawed beyond redemption. And I think the thing that I get out of, like the Christmas truce and this ceremony here at the end is, it's just that not even,

I don't know if we're not bad or not. It definitely indicates that we're not, right? It indicates, but also it indicates to me that we all have way more in common than we have not in common. And like when you get to the point, at the end of the day, Jason Gardner has to eat, has to shit, has to make money, has to feed his family, has to help out with, you know, what you're doing in the world. And I'm over here. I have to eat. I have to shit. I have to take care of my family. And I want my kids to have a good life. And you want your kids to have a good life. And I don't want, you know, I want to have some kind of stability in my life. And you want to have some kind of stability in your life. And so we,

We have so much in common and we let things that are sort of oftentimes if you put them in a bigger picture totally irrelevant. I mean, that's what was shocking about the Brits and the Germans having a freak playing soccer is like those guys didn't give a shit what was going on with some freaking king somewhere. They didn't care. They're like, what? Why do I care about this land over here in France? I live in Germany, bro. You live in England. Like, I don't care.

The French people lived here. Let them live here. What are we doing? So we get wrapped around some dumb shit. And, you know, in this case, it's definitely a very distinct reason for fighting. And the union had to go through. this turmoil to rid itself of slavery. Had to go through it.

There was no other way. It wasn't going to, it wasn't going to go easy. You had to do this kind of massive war to get, to get through that. But we did. And now we can go get stuff from origin, USA.com. You're supposed to come in and like help, bro. You're supposed to say some shit like that to like make me calm out over here. That was a rough, rough trends.

But I think it is like it's like like after you fight for so long it's almost like you lose You almost forget kind of like these men like minimal things that or evidently minimal things that you're Quote unquote fighting for and you start remembering all the commonality stuff and then you start to get kind of exhausted in a way Where you're like just like I said like what are we doing like you kind of forget what you're fighting for you just so habitually caught up in the fight and then And then finally when you all, it's almost like you kind of snap to him be like, wait a second. Like we're fighting over something super small. But meanwhile, we have all these commonalities that are so big. And then it's like a fight.

It's like a relief, you know? And I think even when you engage in a battle, what do you call it, when two other people battle and you're just witnessing it. And you see them battling, you're taking this guy's side. Then you're taking this guy's side or whatever. And then they finally make up you kind of feel good too for some reason. Like you ever seen like a rivalry end between some people? It like feels kind of good. Yeah.

Yeah, I, uh, sometimes I've gotten asked a couple times, like, do I, what I want to go back to Iraq? And like, and I, not there yet at all. I'm not like, hey, you're going to check it out. Check the battlefield in Ramadi. Go look at Baghdad. Like, I'm not there. I'm not, I don't have any desire to do that. I don't know if I'll get there.

Ramatari's just like rubble anyway. They're not rebuilding it at all. I don't know. But I think when liberating it from ISIS didn't go. Yeah, I saw those videos. It was freaking rubble. house by house like oh there might be bad guys in there nuke it

yeah I don't know when you had Holly Mackey on and she talked about Afghanistan falling and then you know the story about the two the Taliban guys who slept outside of her hotel room because they wanted to protect her so even

there are our enemy and you can see your enemies acting with honor, and I think that was definitely honorable because I didn't think that was going to work out that well for her when I heard that story, I'm like, how did you even make it back? I know. I was like, when she was over there, I was like, it might be a good time to leave.

It might be good. You're not going to be able to leave now. You know, I was like, oh, you should probably leave. You should probably leave. Oh, you're not going to be able to get out of there. And she got out of there. Boy, she's a brave woman. I asked him, like, do you think you maybe you're a little naive?

She's like, yeah, maybe. You know? I wouldn't be rolling around in there. Maybe I'm too paranoid. Maybe I'm too risk averse. Wait, you just see one too many videos. Yeah. Somebody in an orange jumpsuit.

Somewhere they weren't supposed to be. And you're just like, All right. What else, Echo? Speaking of videos. Origin USA. You got some cool videos from their YouTube channel. If you're interested,

you can see how all the American-made stuff is made, including Jock Fuel, by the way. Yep. And guess what? We at origin, Maine, have unified the north and the south. We have factories up in Maine. We have factories in North Carolina. Yes.

We're all in the same team. The American team. The healing is continues. The healing continues. I haven't been down to the North Carolina factory. I'm looking forward to getting down there and meeting everyone. I got some roots in North Carolina. And, you know, I obviously have the root, the New England roots.

New England, huh? Who's your roots out in the... Just on my mom's side. I was born there. I got some roots in South Carolina. You do. My dad's side. Yeah.

Beautiful state. True story. Yeah. You're a straight up, uh, descendant of slaves, correct? Correct. From South Carolina? South Carolina, yeah. That, uh, at the end of the Civil War, about 10% of the Union Army was former

slaves that had escaped to the north and if you think about that number 10% of the Union army that means basically every able-bodied former slave man straight up just went and fought it's freaking legit yeah that's freaking legit but yeah speaking of legit look okay we'll talk about some energy drinks legitimate not illegitimate because that's a stigma that energy drinks you staff we don't have that anymore Jocko go healthy energy drink Jason you know about this I heard you last time you hear me Also a lot of other good supplements again American made stuff

Yeah good supplements go to joccofuel dot com got some taste good protein got some uh joint health stuff I'm and you kind of need a bulk right now to be honest Oh yeah do you get do you get top do you get I don't know what the word is because last time we talked about jiu jihitsu post jiu jitzu fatigue sets in right hour and a half after jih Tutsu tired You leave jiu jitsu wired Kind of like amped hyped By the time you get home

If you get home and then you eat You're going into some serious like sleep mode Same thing with the podcast Like I get done with the podcast I'm super freaking hype for like an hour and a half Maybe two hours And then all this no it's not an hour It's not two hours

I got like an hour and a half of energy I'll usually try and go home And start prepping my next podcast Because I know I have energy that I need to do something with. But then it's mentally taxing to think and read and react. And you're so deep into it. And you're getting emotional.

I'm freaking getting emotional reading a freaking book today. Right? Like that's all happening. What does that mean? If I'm getting emotional reading a book, is that taking the same emotional toll or having the same emotional impact as it is if I watch a movie? Is it the same as if I have like something happened in my life?

What's the difference? Probably the movie is probably similar not in life because life kind of like the emotional part of life kind of continues, right? Because your life is actually, the movie ends and you're like, cool story. Book, I mean, even though this one's true, it's like, okay, that story is kind of done. So yeah, but like there's an emotion of pride that I feel when I hear these stories that, again, when I see my kid like doing something or something or, you know, or someone that I'm proud for them. It's almost the same experience, but it is a shorter burn for sure.

Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, this is like, this is always going to be the case. This happened no matter what happens from not, you know, kind of thing. But when you read the book, it kind of calls your attention to it, you know,

and that's what's going to invoke these emotions. Same thing with the movie. But when I read this book or books like this, I'm having the emotions that I'm feeling are probably one third the emotion from the book and two-third emotion of my own memories. Yeah, and that's all movies are too, right? Like I think about these situations that unfolded,

and I'm thinking about situations that unfolded for me, obviously not to the degree of, but, you know, like, you can't help thinking about that stuff. And so even though it comes quick, and then you can close the book and it's over, but you still were in there. Yeah. So I'll be freaking sleep like a baby tonight

Yeah after your mulk shake Yeah after half a time That's what I was saying Because the mulkshake also just stimulates like A form of The pleasure centers Yeah pleasure centers and of Of safety

And of like comfort Right comfort yeah you have a mulk and you're kind of like Bro it's all good You know the world's good It kind of takes you to a psychological area where things are good. Like there's no, you're not storming up

a blood-soaked hill and drinking a mulk. Those are the opposite end of the spectrum. So I'll go have a milk as like a way to wind down a little bit. Sure. Enter the zone, the milk zone. So there you go.

Check it out. Jagofuel.com, OriginUSA.com. Jocco store. We sell shirts at Jocco store. Yep. Right? Shirts.

Hats. merch, if you will. Discipline equals freedom It's got some new stuff on there What's up with the Grays Against the Machine shirt That you're wearing? Is it like a group? Is it just a thing? No man it's a it's a

It's a buddy of mine That's into regenerative ag Well sweet Had the shirt made up Graze against the machine What if people want to order one What's the guy of a website? I don't even know if they make them anymore I just got it

Yeah I will figure that out And post something in the notes Yeah we can throw them if we want to make them if he wants to make him or whatever. Subscribe to the Pong. Jocko Underground.com. Once again, I don't know what's getting, I don't know who's getting shut down for what.

I don't know what. There's some crazy stuff going on in Canada right now. People are getting shut down. They're getting their finances halted. That's what's happening right now. This isn't like me talking about some dystopian future where things have gone awry. It's like what's happening in Canada.

They're doing that without corridor. and all that other scary stuff. So that's kind of crazy. Yes. I don't know what's going to happen here, but if it happens, we're going to be on the Underground. If you want to help us out there,

jacounderground.com. Go, subscribe. It costs $8.18 a month. If you can't afford that, we're not casting you out of the zone of freedom. You just have to email assistance at jocco underground.com. YouTube channel, check that out.

It's true. psychological warfare. Flipside canvas, Dakota Meyer. Making cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books about leadership. You can also get Bayonet Ford. If you want to get these books, you can go to joccalpodcast.com

and go to books on the podcast. Books from episode, too. And they're all there. They're kind of a list in order of the books I recommend you read. Now, would all things being, if I was to restack that book, that thing, would they be adjusted a little bit? There'd be some adjustments.

This book would be further up there. I was never a huge Civil War guy until probably like five years ago. I don't know. It seemed like it was too far ago, whatever. No, like, don't get me wrong. It's not like I wasn't interested in the Civil War at all. But I wasn't going, I didn't start going deep. Not like, you know, for me, it was always kind of number one,

NOM, closest to memory. Number two, World War II. Number three, Korea, because we didn't hear as much about that as we needed to. So the Civil War, there's been people asking me about the Civil War. I've got a stack of books, stack of books ready for the podcast that I, this is the one we're starting with, I guess. Yeah, so you can get all that stuff at jocco podcast.com. We have a leadership consultancy. If you want to check that out, we talk about leadership.

Not just in war. In fact, very little in war. Now it's about business. So go to eschlamfront.com for that. We have an online training academy. Go to extreme ownership. If you have a question about any of this and you want to ask Jason Gardner

or you want to ask me or you want to ask Laif or any of us, J.P. Dannell, you want to ask him something? Go to extreme ownership.com and you can go on to one of our Zoom sessions. You can just ask away. You can ask 19 questions if you want to. Yeah. And then there's a bunch of other people.

who are in the game and on the path. Yeah. And you can hear the questions they're asking. Yeah. Because they probably have the same, and they do, they have the same problems you do. Yeah.

Yeah. It's fantastic. So that's Extreme Ownership.com. And then we have some charities, America's mighty warriors. org doing great stuff by Mama Lee, Mark Lee's mom. And then also Heroes and Horses.

Dot com. Check that one out. Both these organizations looking to help out people who have served. And if you want to hear more from us. We're on social media, which means in order to enter that, you've got to

go, you got to go play Russian roulette with the algorithm. It's more like dodgeball, to be honest. You can have some fun with it for sure. But yeah, you get the, if that thing gets ahead of you, you get caught up in a spiral. They're not letting that happen in China, by the way. Because their kids aren't

allowed to be on after such and such a time. And the things that they're allowed to look at are controlled by the state. Now, I don't support controlling things by the state, certainly. But if you don't pay attention, you can waste 45 minutes on social media. 45 minutes. Yeah, you wind up, you're like, hey, what is my thumb doing? Why did it just go right there, hit Instagram, and now I'm sweeping past.

I'm like, oh, stop it. Yeah, yeah. That's the algorithms got you. I know. Echo's trying to defend the algorithm last time. The algorithm is like fire. Right? It's like fire.

It's okay. You can use it if you use it in a controlled way, but it can really easy catch hold of your whole household. Everything is burning. Everything's on fire. So be careful. Jason on Instagram, he's at jason.n. Dot, dot, Gartner. And on Twitter, he's Jason N Gardner.

And on the Twitter, on the gram. And on the Facebook, eball. Hell yeah. Echoes out, Equitralz. I am at Jocko Willink. And of course, thanks to all the military personnel out there for holding us safe here in the world, holding up the flag and doing your best to represent the ideals

so everyone can see. We appreciate that. And of course, here at home, thanks to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service all the first responders Thank you for what you do here at home to keep us safe and until next time remember that there is a way of losing that is finding and as Joshua Chamberlain said it is only when a man

Supremely gives that he supremely finds so go out there and give until next time this is jason and echo and jocco out