Jocko Podcast - 335: You Got One Shot at This Gig, So Go Out and Live. W/ Lance Mann.

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

0:00:00 - Opening:005:51 - Lance Mann.How to stay on THE PATH.Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 335 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. When the Navy's academics had arrived in 1955 to observe UDT training, their purpose had been to validate the course's individual selection tests. The soft sand runs, the ocean swims, the harassment of Hell Week, and short of invalidating any of those, to develop what they called realistic selection standards

that would reduce what the Navy admitted was the course's excessive attrition. Subjecting students to a battery of personality tests and classifying their individual traits, age, education, intelligence, and so on, the academics hoped not only to predict a candidate's likelihood of success in training, but also his success in an actual underwater demolition team.

In the course of these assessments, they learned that students below the age of 21 were 8% more likely to fail, roughly the same rate as high school dropouts, while students from broken homes were just as likely to graduate as anyone else. Based on the number of times a student had voluntarily visited the dispensary, assessors determined that a candidate in moderate health who, quote, minimize the psychological importance of pain, fatigue, and intense discomfort, stood a much higher chance of success than quote the most physically fit who were overly concerned about their injuries

The least common traits among successful frogmen seem to be restraint Thoughtfulness sociability and cautiousness the most common were responsibility emotional stability original thinking objectivity objectivity and most of all, masculinity. Later studies had gone on to test a variety of variables, including the benefits of wheat germ in a student's diet, which proved particularly negligible, and a series of Rorschach tests and psychiatric interviews

to determine the effect of sexuality on a candidate's success or failure. Successful Frogman, said the sex reports author, appear to require this specific rather masculine and adventurous occupation with all its self-destructive and masochistic implications because, and this was just the author's speculation of their magical attraction to the depth of the sea and the security of the womb and an unconscious motivation to prove their masculinity coupled with a fear of involvement with women. Setting aside the psychoanalyst's tendency to project own insecurities onto their subject the Navy had not been able to argue with the

UDT's results I have never met a group of more self-reliant hell for leather characters wrote reporter Bill Stapleton after accompanying a UDT to St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands in 1955 besides their typical reconnaissance exercises submarine lockouts and tests with miniature submersibles the frogmen had also salvaged a 50-foot yacht from a reef twisted the tails of passing sharks and when an American sailor had disappeared into a harbor on a moonless night had commandeered a truck roared to the wharf's edge and as if they had been scouting the contours of an enemy beach dove online until they found the drowned man in their free time they spearfished drank on untold amounts of beer

erected beachside bonfires and in overflowing pots of sea water and vinegar boiled lobsters and astonished the superstitious natives by broiling barracuda steaks. You eat barracuda, barracuda eat you, they had said. Promises, replied a frog man, nothing but promises. So exclusive were the UDTs said one observer that even rank meant nothing to them. When seen in their standard swim trunks and knife belts,

surrounded by charts and diving equipment, and asked by passer-bys if they were indeed, In the Navy, the Frogmen would invariably reply, regardless of the askers rank, nope, we're all in UDT. So that right there is an excerpt from an incredible book. The book is called By Water Beneath the Waves. It's written by a former seal named Ben Milligan, and it's an outstanding history of where the SEAL teams come from. But that little excerpt describing what a UDT man was like back in the day,

that assessment is from 1955. So at that time there were no seal teams. But the spirit, the soul of the frogman was there in full form. And this is where the modern day seals come from. Those were our roots. Those were our forefathers. And it is an honor to have one of those old. school frogmen with us today to tell us about his experiences in the underwater demolition

teams what he learned there and how he applied those lessons throughout the rest of his life his name is Lance man a UDT frogman a waterman a surfer an entrepreneur a lifeguard and a damn good example of how to live life Lance thank you for joining us well thank you for made the opportunity to be here. Appreciate it. That assessment in 1955, I feel like I know half those guys that he's talking about. Like, these are the guys I grew up with in the teams. Right. And pretty interesting that it just, there's something about it that stays.

Like there's something about that old frogman that stays. Well, and I think what the, in the training and I guess the buds, if you will, and the subsequent, I don't even know what all you do to become a seal today. But I'm always struck by how much a part of the old days is inculcated into the modern-day trainee and the buzz candidate. And it always catches me off. God, I mean, I love that. I love that. the teams. And when I was about, I read something like that, about five years subsequent to that, to when that was written. And I think Reader's Digest had a deal in 1961 or something like that. And I was a senior in college and I was reading that puppy. And I said, you know, and I,

I didn't really even want to go in the military, but when I put that down, I said, well, if I have to go in the military, I'm going to do that, because that sounds really cool. And so it resonated with me, and it's interesting to me that it seems like a big part of the seal training. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And it's great. I mean, as an old guy, when I meet guys and when they hear these guys that could do, so much more than I could for crying out.

And then they're giving me credit for something that, man, I don't know if I had that in me, but by gum, I'll take it. So thank you. Well, let's get there. Let's go all the way back to the beginning to where you grew up and how you grew up, just to kind of get a feel for where you came from.

So when were you born? I was born in 1939. And so my dad, you know, he was a hardworking guy. He had just got finished with graduate school, and he was starting his corporate career. And as a consequence, we moved a couple of times. But then when the Second World War broke out, he signed up with the Navy.

He was a navigator in, I don't know, I can't. I don't know what. So you were born in 39. 39. And here's your dad a couple years into his corporate career, maybe a year or two. Yes. And that was just what guys were doing. Yes.

The war broke out. Didn't matter what you were doing. You had a family. You got young kids. Right. You're going. You're going. Or you had some occupation where they needed you in it.

And so they didn't want you in the military. They wanted you to keep going with whatever you were doing. You have any idea why he wanted to go? in the Navy? I don't know why dad did that, but because of that, we moved everywhere. We lived in Hollywood, Florida. We lived in San Francisco, and we were all over the place, and we must have moved. And by the time I was about four or five years old and started going to school, I think I had to, went to about five kindergarten. And then about three or four first grade, and then about three or four first grades and then second grade I went down to one and then third and then I went to

the same school for third, fourth and a month and a half of fifth grade. So I moved around a lot. And your dad was in the Navy the whole time? Is that what was going on? When he he got let me see in 1945 I was six so I was in first grade and that's when the number of schools that I matricul. and kind of tapered down a little bit, and so we settled out. Did he get out of the Navy in 45 after the war? Yeah, he went and he became an administrative assistant to a U.S. senator from New Jersey that knew him as a young kid going to business school. And so then we kind of settled down in the D.C. area for a couple of years and then moved to

up around New York. And what were you into when you were a kid? What were you doing? Oh, nothing very worthwhile. It was one of those deals where you lived in a neighborhood. And your baseball team might have 13 guys on it, you know. And that's the way it was growing up in, you know, like in New Jersey and a town outside of New York City.

And then just a bunch of kids getting together doing sports stuff. Porter Park, I remember in Montclair. And so we did that kind of thing. Nothing too organized. But then... And what about by the time you got into high school? Where'd you go to high school? Well, it's funny.

I went to a school in Montclair in fifth grade, and I met some good friends there. And the kids, all my buddies, ended up going to, I think it was Montclair Academy for sixth grade up. And my parents said, well, no, you're going to go to Hillside Junior High School instead. So I said, sheesh. Okay. So I did, but by the time I was in eighth or ninth grade, it became clear to me why I didn't go to the private school in sixth grade. That's because my parents are probably saving up to send me off to boarding school in New England. And so I went to high school at Deerfield Academy in western Massachusetts.

And so is that like one of the old school, like all boys, prep schools? Coat and tie. Coat and tie. Yeah, no girls. Yeah, it was gnarly. But, yeah, it was. It's a great school. It was probably a lot better school than I was a student, but I, thank goodness for swimming,

because I joined the swim team, and I wasn't a great swimmer, but I was pretty good. And luckily I had some, you know, so I felt at home at Deerfield because of swimming, and not because of the academics too much. I mean, I got through them, but it was a struggle. And I don't think I embarrassed my parents by, but I got through okay. And this is, so this is the, what, late 50s? That's good. I was there, what, in the fall of 54, I graduated in 1957, and then went to college in 1958.

Did you have a car? And between, I got a car in 19, well, No, not until I left Deerfield. Okay. Yeah, that was it. See, some of the kids, some of those kids, they graduate and they get a new car. How was that? It just seemed like cars back then were so epic.

Oh, yeah. And even though cars, I think the car, I mean, even today in America, we kind of, we definitely focus on cars. And that's usually the biggest purchase a person makes until they're maybe 30 and they finally buy a house. But up until then, it's like, what? What car are you getting? Yep. And back then, it seemed like it was even more so. Oh, it was unbelievable.

I remember this guy, Jill Willard in my class, and he's really a neat guy. And I remember when graduation weekend came along, and he was going down Albany Road and Deerfield, which is just kind of a country town kind of a place. and he had this 50-foot long gray 98 Osmobile, and there was Joe, man. It was perfect, and he was cruising down there, waving. King of the world, kind of. King of the world, yeah, yeah. And where'd you end up going to college?

I ended up going to Tulane University in New Orleans. And it was a, I don't know. You know, you got to, you know, when you're religious, you know, they're saying, you know, hey, God has a plan for you. And so all you need to do is just lighten up and go along with the program. And I certainly didn't have that kind of spiritual significance inculcated in me at that point. However, you talk about a guy who had no clue what was going. on, but somebody must have because when I left Deerfield, I think I was the only kid in my class

that had no college that was going to take me. And so my parents got me into this great college in Wisconsin called Lawrence College at the time, and they were good friends with the president of the college. So he says, yeah, okay, yeah. A mercy. Yeah, yeah. Mercy admission. So I went there and it turned out that we went down to New Orleans because I had an aunt that lived there. We went there for spring break, and I looked around. And they said, I said, there's a college around here, you know? And sure enough, there was Tulane University. And luckily, I had an uncle that was Tulane at that time.

Well, I think always has always been known for a medical school. And I had an uncle that was a doctor. And he was pretty prominent around New Orleans. And so he got me into Tulane, you know, as a transfer student. When you got down to New Orleans, so this is, so now we're talking 58, 59 maybe? In the fall of 59. Because you're, I mean, when you got up to Wisconsin, was that just like cold? and you just thought to yourself,

I got to get out of Wisconsin. Well, yeah, and also by this time, my parents had moved there, and I love my parents. We were close and everything, but I had already done time at a boarding school, and so I was away from home, so living with my parents just wasn't part of the program anymore, you know. And so I thought, gee, I got to get on my own here.

So I, and that really was a big part of going to Tulane. And I was really stoked with New Orleans and the South. The first time that I went to New Orleans, I was in a seal platoon. I was a new guy. And we were flying to go to Herbert Field in Florida. And for some reason, the air crew had a plan stop from San Diego. We were flying to Horbert Field, Florida.

And for some reason, we had to stop for a night in New Orleans. It's like for some unknown reason, right? Couldn't have been plain on Texas. Yeah, it's a Tuesday night. And all the guys are like, oh, we're going to Bourbon Street. I'm thinking it's Tuesday night. And, of course, I'm not even old enough to drink. So I'm kind of just going along with whatever's going along.

And I thought to myself, well, Tuesday night, maybe we'll go get some dinner or whatever. It just wasn't really expecting much. We got down to Bourbon Street on a Tuesday night. It was complete and utter mayhem. It was chaos. Yeah. There was people drinking. you know, girls taking their freaking clothes off.

It was why it was insane. Wonderful. Yeah. How does that, so was that kind of the gig when you showed up there in 1558? Was it similar? Was it that much of a party town back then, too? Oh, for sure. And I was pretty straight arrow.

And I think I had my, well, I had my first beer, I think, in my freshman year up in Wisconsin and there, and I had great friends. and that's in my fraternity there. And so we drank a little bit of beer, but I really, it kind of honed it to a fine art by the time I'm back down in New Orleans. Yeah, New Orleans is, it's, it's, I think it's, you know,

I've been around, I've moved a lot. And I, about five or six years ago, I was thinking my favorite city in the United States, it has to be New Orleans. I was only there for college. And then a few years later, we did some business down there. But, yeah, there's something very, very unique about New Orleans. It's wild.

So then my platoon commander, this was also in my first platoon, I think, on our way back or something, we have another weird random stop in New Orleans, but he went to Tulane. Oh, so he made inroads and we showed up at like a party where, some kind of fraternity part I don't even know what it was but we show up to this this place and you know it's like a platoon of seals and all these people all these girls are there it's just wild yeah yeah yeah and I remember for a long time for a long time when I was a young single guy my favorite two cities in America were New Orleans and Lake Tahoe because Lake Tahoe yeah also just wild yeah and yeah so it was like

Like that in the 50s too, huh? Oh, for sure. And, you know, we did all the French quarter stuff. And then, but the fraternity parties were a big deal. And, yeah, it was pretty wild and crazy. Although I must say it was probably as much of a college experience as it was a city experience. But we would spend time downtown in the quarter and stuff. And usually, you know, if you're doing stuff and then you kind of finish up down in a quarter and somehow you get home.

What are you studying when you're going to college? I studied psychology and then minored in English. And were you doing with that with any kind of intent or is that just sort of like how it turned out? Oh, there was a lot of intent because it looked to me like psychology was probably the easiest subject I got to figure out. And then tangentially, I started doing the English thing, and I minored in that. And then I became really interested in school. I read a fair amount. And I remember graduating with a degree in psychology and minor in English.

And I remember as I – when I started, thinking about it I really wished I majored in English and then minored in something else the psychology wasn't it wasn't as developed as a field of study as it as it is today to so many people it probably was but it just you just it just didn't reach down to the rest of the world as it seems to now because my kids have studied it and boy they're they're they're learning things that we weren't even on the map, you know, when I was going through. But the English, you know, I kind of wanted a major in psychology, partly just learned about all the crazy people.

But when I was reading all these novels and books, that's where the crazy people were. So I had plenty of that. So English was good. And, you know, I'd say that. I'd recommend that as a major for anybody. So as you're going through college, are you thinking you're going to get a job as a psychologist? Are you, like, what are you thinking your future is going to be?

Because you said you weren't really that interested in the military at that when you first out of the college. Oh, no, no. You're the only reason in those days, if you're a guy, a big part of your life from about 16, 17 years old on is you've got to deal with the draft. Because if you don't deal, if you're not proactive with the military, you're going to get drafted and you're going to go in the army. even in 1958 yep yep no kidding yeah and so I knew I had you know we had rotsie kids in my fraternity you know and they'd do the rotsie deal and so that you know there was a I mean no there was an underlying concern or consider the military was very much a part of your life if you're a guy and so you're gonna have to

either be proactive be going to ROTC or or OCS if you wanted to be an officer or get married. And marriage was kind of a ticket out of avoiding the military, you know, and I think a lot of guys did that. Filled with regret, all of them.

Yeah, you know, I mean, you start thinking military's tough. How about a wife? So, yeah, you got a... I always thought that was a bad choice, not forever, but when you're in your 17, 18, 19, 20-year-old, it's too early to sign up for that. So anyhow, yeah, I knew I had to do something about the military, and I remember talking to some guy who was a pilot, Navy pilot, and I thought, gee, maybe I'll be a pilot. And then that article about UDT came up and remember this guy named King Mallory, he was thinking he's going to go into UDT. And we were on the swim team at Tulane.

Well, so you were like a legit good swimmer. Oh, no, again, like I say, God had a plan. We were just starting the swim team, so we could take anybody. So there I was. at Tulane and we we did form the very first swim swim team that the Tulane had so we so I guess you made the team and I mean yeah well besides because in order to travel you had to drive your own car and I had a car so so we I made the swim team and what did this what did this readers digest article say that really kind of stood out to you

And I believe, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that Admiral Richards talked about the same thing. Wasn't Admiral Richards? I think it was he also saw a Reader's Digest article and said. It's, I mean, people might, it's, everybody knows about that. If you're in the teams, I'm sure everybody has, is aware of that article, whether they read it or not, I don't know. But it, yeah, it was well known.

So what did it say in there that struck you as? Well, one thing, it really sounded like it wasn't very military. You didn't have to be that organized. You didn't have to shine your shoes. You didn't have to do all that stuff, which had appealed to me tremendously. And I remember one line in it, and it, I didn't, it said that something like this, that a frogman on the beach in his swim trunks with his kbar in his hand is one of the deadliest weapons in the military or something like that.

And that's really dramatic. Her glide and sinker. Yeah. And I didn't exactly buy that, but I like the spirit of it. And I think in the passage that you read that. that there is a spirit of, you know what, I'm in the military, I'm part of a group, but I'm my own man. I'm still who I am and I'm independent. And you're loyal to your soul, you're loyal to what you really want to do.

It just so happens you're in this organization where everybody else feels the same way. And if you don't feel that way, you probably won't get through training, you know. There'll be, so it was, there was something, something rebellious about it. Here you are going in the military, but yet you're going in, you're kind of backing into it, man. They said, I'll go in the military, but this is how I want to do it. And I think, I think that was part of the, I think that was part of the psychology of it that caused people, at least it's, that's what I like about it. There was like a recruiting poster, a recruiting, yeah, some kind of poster that I think they had for Project Delta in Vietnam. And it was Charlie Beckwith said something along the lines of, I promise you medals or a body bag or both volunteer here.

But I've also seen a similar thing for UDTs in World War II. I haven't been able to figure out the source of it. but it was something along the lines of no KP duty no uniform no standing in line at the chow hall join the suicide squad udt yeah like a way to recruit guys man yeah young young guys read that kind of stuff and they get all kinds of fired up for it sure and uh yeah they have to have have to have they have to want to take a risk too yeah yeah uh so uh so What was the process for actually joining? How did your dad feel about you going to the UDTZ?

Oh, he was sold for it. 100% in the game. Yeah, my dad was, he was a great cheerleader. And, yeah, he, you know, like swimming, you know, and he would, he liked to drink a lot, too. And, boy, after, you know, we're at some cocktail party or something, boy, you know, by the end of that night, he had me going to the Olympics. He had, you know, it was awesome.

But I didn't measure up, but it was, yeah, he was all for it. And did he tell you anything about the UDTs in World War II? He didn't, no, no. And even when I joined, he didn't, he probably didn't know what they, much about him. He was in the Pacific and he was in an airplane. And I don't, you know, and I don't, I mean, The UDTs certainly made a contribution during the war, but I don't know if everybody in the military

was aware of what all they did. But he was stoked with me joining it. He could see why it appealed to me instead of something that is a little more organized. But yeah, he was all for it. I felt like he really was supportive of it. And then how did you get your commission? Did you go to OCS?

Or were you in ROTC the whole time? Well, it's funny. I don't want to digress anything. But I really didn't know what to do about the military up until about the 10th of September. And I had a choice of either going six months in the Coast Guard and then three, you know, like six years of reserves, weekend duty, because that was really the easiest way out. You just do Coast Guard.

And then you do the reserves or go up to OCS. And I said, well, if it's OCS, shit, it's a tenth of a second. I think they start the 15th. So I was standing on the courthouse steps there, and I just about flipped a coin. And I came up OCS. I said, well, fuck, I better get going here. Because I'm driving in my 1957 Volkswagen.

And so I made it. So that's how I ended up going to OCS. Where was OCS? Was it at Rhode Island or was it there? In Newport. And when you showed up to OCS, was that run by Marine Corps drill instructors? No, they were Navy guys. Oh, how I showed.

I just, it's a good story because it shows you, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. So I pulled in the parking line. I had my clothes hung in the backseat of my car so that the Volkswagen window was my, my blue, my preppy blue blazer was up against the window. And so I closed the car and I thought, well, I tell you what, I'll go, I'll park here. Now go and I'll check into my room,

and then I think I'll go into town and get a bite to eat. well I go in there the next time I saw that car was about six weeks later and I wasn't going anywhere man and so I welcome to the military I said sheesh this is I know I know why I never wanted to go in the military you can't do anything so so I get back out to my car my first day of liberty after six weeks and I was going to put my blue blazer on however that portion of the navy blue blazer that was up against the window had been exposed to the sun for six weeks. And navy blue blazers exposed to the sun, it turns pink.

So half my blazer was pink. So anyhow, that's how, that was kind of my introduction when I realized that, hey, you know what, I'm not in charge of my life anymore. So that was welcome to the military. Did you know you were going to UDT? When you went to OCS, was it some kind of contract? Was it like pre-designated?

Or did they just tell you need to take a test or something when you got there? No, I had no idea. I didn't know it was an option. And I think it was not an option at that point. And I think you had to do a year in the fleet and then you could sign up for UDT. but that was see this was getting in towards 62 and I think whether we knew it or not Vietnam was cooking up pretty good and that's what Kennedy was president and so the needs for special warfare was becoming more paramount at that point and so during

actually it was during our class they opened it up hey if you want to go directly into UDT from OCS you may so I was on that like a tramp on a hot muffin. I got to get there. So did you take a screening test or something? Or did you just want to do? You had a, I think you had to hold your breath a certain length. And then there was another thing that you had to do.

You had to go in a, was in a chamber, and they pressurized you down to 60 feet or something like that. And I remember that because I couldn't get one of my ears to clear when I was down there. And it just ended up bursting the eardrum, but I didn't tell anybody about it because I knew then it's one of those gray hogs out there is where I'd end up. So I got through it and they let me in. And boy, I was really stoked to get a chance to go into UDT training. Was there even any, I'm going to assume there was no UDT people at OCS. They must have, but did they just look at you like you were a crazy guy for wanting to go to that?

Yeah, I was the only guy in, I think I was the only guy in my class. I mean, even up until like the 80s, officers that were going to be seals were kind of like you were, you were capping your career. Like, oh, you'll make captain, but you're never going to be an admiral. You were just kind of, you were, you were taking like a sideline. You were taking a side job that didn't really count to the big Navy. So I imagine in 1962, it must have been just like that. Oh, yeah, great point. You know, I rolled in to Coronado.

The high, there was UDT12 and UDT11 there. And then on the East Coast it was 21 and 22, I believe. And then the highest ranking officer on the West Coast was a Mustang commander. And his name was Mack Boynton. And he always smoked a pipe, so we called him Mack the Pipe. and he and he was the highest-ranking guy

in the teams and he was I think second highest-ranking person was a was a lieutenant lieutenant and then he ended up becoming a lieutenant commander

and then yeah it was it was bitchering I mean it was just not it was just like you just read about it and and it just it had

And it was, yeah, well, I was driving, and then when I was driving up Coronado, I got off the ferry boat, and I was driving up Coronado, and the sun was going down. Was the, the, the Coronado Bridge wasn't there yet? Not yet. So you're driving up the Strand? No, you drive into town, and you catch a ferry boat in San Diego. And had you driven your VW across country? Yeah. Would you have a VW bug?

Yeah, 57. What color was it? Gold. called it the gold coach. So you drive this thing across country. Did you do any preparation besides like, hey, you knew how to swim good? Did you run or anything like this? Yeah, they said running was a big deal.

And I remember as I drove, I would check in to a hot towel joint. And then I would run about two or three miles and then go to bed. And then when I woke up, I ran a couple miles and then get going. Yeah, I was, I knew you had to be a fit, and so I was working on that. And I had been since I left OCS. By the way, when I left OCS, I was in my gold coach. It was February and snowing, and I was driving through, I remember driving through Ohio, of all places, when John Glenn was going around the world,

or whatever he did, the epic space flight that he did. And it was just listening to it on my radio, riveted, you know, it's just fantastic. And so that's kind of how I got my start from OCS back to come. Was OCS done in six weeks, or is that just when you forgot your first break? Well, no. It was done. Let me see, I started in September. So, yeah, it was October, November, December, January.

It was about a three or four months program. And so in February, I was done. I mean, I was commissioned and I was on my way to Coronado. Making that big Navy paycheck. Oh, yeah. Richest guy in the world. Oh, yeah. Driving one of the finest cars is modern day Tesla, you know.

So you, you're driving out, you drive out and you eventually get the Coronado. Yes. And you say you take the ferry from where, from downtown San Diego, into Coronado? Yeah, downtown. What is that? Seaport Village. Yeah, it is Seaport Village now.

You get off and you know you drive into NAB Coronado. You're looking at what happens when you check in? Is anybody even there? Well, yeah, there was Donald Loughlin that was the officer on duty. And then this guy, I forgot the name of the other guy that was working with him. But yeah. And he was, again, it was just all. so providential. I mean, Donald Loughlin was this great guy. He's very encouraging. And he said,

hey, you know, it's, it's hard, but you're going to do fine, you know. And a lot of, a lot of, and, you know, I could have run into some guys and, oh, man, you're going to, but this guy, he was, he ended up being a good friend. And was he, so he, was he in buds or he was already in the teams? He was already in the teams. He was one of the instructors. And he was the O officer, officer of the day. And so he was on the base when I checked in. And he was cool. Really cool. Just like, oh, you'll be fine.

Yeah. Man, that's cool. Yeah, it was really cool. And I actually, I think back on who was around in those days. And I think most of the guys on the teams would have been. I wish I could say the same. I was talking to one of my buddies that's a master chief now in the teams. He's still in.

But he said, he was my roommate, buds. He said when he checked it, he walked in the room. I looked up at him and said, quit now and avoid the rush. I'm like, I'm sorry, I was such an asshole. Oh, my God. That was his welcome of order. We were laughing so hard that I said that to him. Freaking great guy.

We had so many good times, but that was how I introduced myself to him. Why you quit now and avoid the rush? That's really good. How long did it take from when you checked into buds to where you out? actually got into a class. That was good. It was about a month. We had some kind of course we took.

They're just killing time. And building 401 across the street on the base. And then UDT was in building 201 weight on the base side of the amphib base. Okay. And then the teams were where the teams were. Okay. So you have about a month and you're just kind of training and going through whatever kind of course they're putting through you're working out yeah you do your workout on your own and uh which was

fine i'd just get up and i'd run run i'd run quite a bit swimming i didn't think was going to be a problem and but the the running you know i wanted to make sure i could keep up on the run so so i did that uh you get this and this is still called udtr right at this time it's not called trade yeah you D-T-R-A yeah so it's you it's the underwater demolition team's replacement or you need underwater demolition team training got it and it's U D-T-R-A yeah and so what class were you in 28 28 so you're in class 28 was that a big deal back then did you guys make a big deal that you were in class 20 was in like you weren't even thinking about it yet I wouldn't even thinking about it I just wanted to get through the goddamn thing

Do you guys, did you guys wear helmet liners like we, like I did? Yeah. Okay. So did you put your number, class number on it? I don't think we did that, but we, no, I'm sure we didn't. Class number wasn't. Wasn't a big thing yet. Yeah, not yet.

Yeah. So you, do you remember, do you remember when you started? Do you remember your first day of first phase? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So what was that like? See, they get, they heard, there were 14 officers that were going to start class 28. How many people total?

And then there were about another 80 enlisted guys, total in the very beginning. But the first day of training, they do officers for two weeks. The officers had two weeks of training before the whole class comes together. And the reason was is that you had to get rid of the officers that are going to quit. And actually, we probably started with about 20-something. And we did out a number of officers right away, but not too many. I mean, certainly the majority of the officers remain in the class. A guy was telling me that like before Hell Week, they'll have, you know, a class and they'll be whatever, seven officers, 10 officers.

Yeah. And the instructors will say, who's number one in charge? And the, you know, a guy raised this. Yeah. This is before Hell Week. They say, who's next in charge? And another guy was, who's next in charge? And they'll go to like six deep.

Because the assumption is, man, you're going to go through all those officers. and they're going to be gone, bye-bye. They get a good look at them now, man, because they're going to be history. So the officers spent some time two weeks. They're weeding out some of those guys, and they weeded it down to how many officers? I think there were about eight of us.

Okay. So what were you guys doing when you were, were they treating you like Bud students? Were they beating you guys and tearing you up during those two weeks before you joined the class? And what were they doing to get rid of some of these guys? Well, the runs were longer. It was all the physical stuff and a lot of cold water.

But it wasn't that hard. It wasn't bad. The running was pretty hard. And I worked pretty hard to get ready for it. And as I recall, it wasn't a real problem for me. but by gum, it was hard. And I remember, I think I was in shape for it. But I remember one run we had this guy.

In fact, he lives in Coronado today. He led the run. And she, you know, he just kept going and going. And I remember at the end of the run, I guess I experienced hypothermia, which I'd never known anything about. And I still didn't at that time. But I know that as soon as we got done with the run

and I ran over to the, I guess, some place where they sold baby Ruth candy bars and they ate about two of those puppies right off the bat before we went to the chow hall. And your instructors, were these guys like Korean War vets and World War II vets? That's a good question. There was one guy that was a World War II guy.

and I think he was at Normandy. And then there was other guys that were Korean and, yeah, Korean War. Oh, and Joe Barber, yeah, he was a Second World War guy, but I don't know, he wasn't a frog man, I don't think, at that point. But, and then the other guys were, were, yeah, a couple of the other instructors were, were post Korea. And this is 1962?

March of 62. Oh, so this is like the seal teams had just been formed up. Did you hear about that? Yeah. And so we went on across it. When we got done with training and went across street, there were 50 seals. The seal team one had been formed and it consisted of 50 guys.

So first day of, you said you remembered your first day of actual training with the whole class. Did they stomp you guys in the ground? Was it a more gentle entry? What they do to you? Well, we had a pretty serious conditioning hike. And so we, yeah, there were trainees strung out from the hotel down to down to north, you know, just everywhere. But yeah, we had a good run. And then we, everybody's pretty hot. So we, we, everybody's pretty hot. got in the water, it gets cooled off. Cool you down a little bit.

You trainees look a little hot and you need to get cooled off here. Were people quitting on the first day? Yeah. Yeah, we probably, I don't know how many, but yeah, we'd lose the first week there, we probably lost 20 guys all together. That's a guess, I don't know.

Do you think they just didn't know what they were getting into? I'm sure that a couple of them just didn't know that. Yeah, because I know nowadays there's so much a perspective of UDT guys or SEAL team guys going to, they're going to know a lot about the team. Yeah. And but our guy, you know, in those days, yeah, there were, there was, yeah, they didn't have any idea. And probably, probably.

there's one guy he was from Holland and he ended up graduated from high school in up in the northwest someplace and his name he's a good friend of mine actually lives in Coronado now

and his name is Dutch Swagamockers and he when we first day in the pool he could not swim and you know that deal where they have you to You have to keep your hands above water or something like that.

I don't know for how long it was, but it was, you know, you need to keep yourself afloat. This guy, he was a cyclist, so he had not one ounce of fat on him. So you put him in the pool, couldn't swim. And, yeah, he was down in the bottom. And he had his hands up there. And he's also, he wasn't real tall. He's about five, five, six, five, seven. And he had his hands up there.

And you could tell he just straight. and then he'd sink, the fingers would go below the surface of the water, and then he would get himself back out, but he made it through. And then when he, and then all the swimming pool thing, and then finally, thank God,

he was issued a pair of fins. And then with his legs, as a cyclist, he could outswem most people anyhow. And so, but he, I'll never forget that guy, he's such a courageous, guy and how he was able to do what he did with no swimming background at all. That's insane.

Yeah, it really is. That's crazy. Yeah. And he, but he did it. And he became, he was a very successful frog man. And then he, uh, he did some diving after the teams. And, yeah, but he's, he's a local guy in Coronado now and does, has nice family and good wife and all that stuff.

So you roll into Hell Week. What do you remember about Hell Week? It was bitching. I, were you, was, what was the hype around going into it? Was people nervous? Were people excited about it? Were, like, were you scared?

What was the hype going into it? I think nervous and scared probably was the two, two biggest feelings about it. Yeah, everybody was, and that's probably the same today, huh? You know, it's just, yeah, it was, I know in my own head, you know, I've thought about it a lot. I swear there was, there was never a thought of not making it through hell week. I just wasn't sure, and I think that's how all of all, us felt that yeah we're all going to make it but we don't know how but we weren't asked to

articulate that we all we had to do is hang in there and and so that was my mind said well what the hell I'll just do as long I'll just hang in here and if you have that mindset then I think it becomes manageable and and it was it was hard I mean you got to damn cold and you didn't sleep and uh but you knew after monday that there's tuesday and you know we're just and we got done on saturday morning and um and you got through and it wasn't you didn't have this feeling that oh god i made it i can't believe i made it no you had this feel well whew i'm glad that's over with it you because i think you i think your mind mindset was that you're going to get through.

It just, just how the hell you're going to do it. Who knows, you know? So you just do it. How many people you think you lost? I don't know. Let's say we started with a grand total of 80. We probably lost at least half, you know. Maybe we were down to 30.

I remember we started with like six or seven boat crews and then at the end we had four. And so you have six men in a boat. And as I've said before, I wasn't much of a student, but I could multiply six times. Six times three. Yeah, I carry the one. And then you get, so was your training broken up into phases the way it is now? So for me, I went through first phase, which was like the weeding out phase.

It was nine weeks long. Then we went into dive phase where you learned how to scuba dive and drag her and all that. and then went into land warfare. I think dive phase was like seven weeks, and then land warfare was another eight weeks or nine weeks. It was somewhat like that. Yeah, it was definitely that first phase, that first phase right up to Hell Week,

they just beat the crap out of it, you know, and get in shape. And then you had Hell Week. And then I remember for a few days after Hell Week, that next week, we did some, we shot guns or something like that, where we, because everybody's pretty sore. Yeah, you're beat so.

And then the Dye's, Dive phase and then I guess was dive phase a challenge no for me or you not really no no it was you guys diving the old Emerson rig what were you guys diving yeah the Emerson so you started on open circuit did you guys do pool competency yes oh yeah yeah they were well prepared I think you know everybody knew how to do it and we were we were a lot in the we were in the pool a lot and then we went off up at point Loma line. It was pool comp.

Like when I went through pool comp was a big hurdle to get over where you had the twin 80s on. You had the double hose regulator. They're going to come down, tie that thing in knots, rip your mask off, beat you up down there underwater. It was something that a lot of guys failed, myself included. I failed it the first time I took it. But was that like a big hurdle for you guys or was it more like they were just

instructing you? You know, I don't remember being that much harassment. Maybe we got off easy on that deal because there was a little bit of that, but for the most part, it was instructive. And I never felt, you know, they made you take your rig. You know, do things where you could hold your breath. Right. It wasn't, I don't remember that being a problem or a challenge even.

And then you said you dove the Emerson rig for a close? circuit do you remember oh i remember we drove a closed circuit thing but i don't i think i can't remember the name of it what might have been emerson but it was closed circuit and yeah i remember some of the old guys told me they called it the green death because it was like a horrible rig to die for whatever reason i don't know the reason why they just they just didn't like this emerson rig i well i think i think that was it i remember there was a guy in my this guy named dowd who died in a training thing because of the of the Emerson. I'm

sure I think it was the Emerson and I remember the poor guy who's in the decompression chamber there trying to bring them back and didn't do it. The diving, you said you're diving off point Loma, going out doing basic dives and this kind of thing.

And then what kind of land warfare training did you get? Boy, that's a good question. I don't remember getting much of it at all. Yeah, we didn't do, we did a little bit of marches out at O-Tai where I guess there are a bunch of houses out there now, but, you know, it was a lot of land, you know, hiking and going around. But there wasn't, there wasn't much of it. And it makes sense because SEAL team really wasn't part of the mission yet. Right. So that land stuff, we were water guys. We were frogmen.

So we didn't have to mess with that stuff. So when you wrap up with training, did you go to airborne school? I went about a year after training. Some guys did, some guys didn't. And I don't know why my number was delayed, but then we did go to jump school at Benning. So when you graduated Buds or you graduated UDT training and then you got stationed on a West Coast team, what team did you go to? 12. And what was it like showing up there?

What was the deal? Well, it was great. I ran into Donald Loughlin, the guy I met that very first day there. And I think the first thing we did is this fellow officer of mine. And I said, well, I guess kind of looked around. I said, well, might as well go for a run. So we just started working out. and there wasn't a whole hell of a lot going on.

Yeah. This is like what? Now it's not, is it 1963 yet? Yeah. No, late 62, August. We got done in August. Are you hearing rumblings about Vietnam? Is that like...

Not really. I don't know if anybody had been to Vietnam yet. Yeah. I mean, even talking, I've had guys on that were, you know, in the Navy in 1965, they still weren't thinking about Vietnam. It wasn't the other thing yet. As late as 1965, then it's kind of kicked off where everyone. That's just about exactly right, because I got out in 65, February of 65.

And then my brother, actually, I was driving east to go work in some corporate job. And then he was driving west. He just got done with OCS, and he was heading to Coronado. So you guys high-fived as you crissed across the country. Yeah, we met in Tucson drink. We emptied that town of beer and he went west and I went east. And my wife was pissed off because I had drank too much the night before. But then we just carried on.

And he had followed in your footsteps, heard about what you were doing. Yeah. And thought that sounded like a good deal. Yeah. Yeah. Are you tracking him as he's going through? training UDD training pretty much he would

I remember him he got engaged and he got engaged while he was in training and then got married after after he was done with training but yeah and he would send pictures of his engagement party and stuff and I mean he had his

haircut like yours and so it was in yours so they But, you know, again, you know, we don't have the phone, you know, it's just interesting how infrequently we would communicate and yet always felt up to date. Right. So when you got to, just to rewind a little bit, when you got to UDT, did you say UDT12?

Yes. So you get to UDT 12, do you get assigned to a platoon? Do you go on deployment? What do you do when you get there? I got assigned to a platoon with Clay Freeman. He was a platoon officer. he was a great guy, went to Dartmouth, who's a big time skier, and good, good guy. But anyhow, so we, and then we just hung out, and I think we did some, we did a sub-op

one time off of San Clemente, and then, oh, and then what did happen is that we had the missile crisis with Castro deal, or, yeah, and that ended up not being anything really, but they everybody loaded up on a APD I think is it is that what we traveled in and then they just did PT and they got down to the canal and then turned around and came back because the crisis was over also like you loaded up on a ship to go

over to Cuba for you right right right and not having it to do it then came home would you would you guys go on to You know like when I got in the teams you were gonna get in a platoon you're gonna do a workup You're gonna go on deployment you're gonna get done with that deployment And the first couple deploy well actually the first second third and fifth deployment. I think were all shipboard for me Okay, so I was on ships. Oh, is that right? Were you guys deploying like that or

When you got put in your platoon did you say did someone say okay on this date? You're gonna go on deployment You're gonna go to the South Pacific or you're gonna go to Southeast Asia on a ship on a ship or anything like that. Well, not that organized. We would get a sign and we knew that our platoon was going to go at such and such a time. You know, I think we were due to go out another six months after we got on. And then you'd go, and I forgot how long the deployments were, but they were, seemed pretty long. So did you do one of those deployments?

Well, we keep talking about God intervening here. What happened to me is we got a new CO, took Mac the Pipe's position. But this new CEO was a guy who was a naval academy grad, and he was coming to the team. He said, you know, he said, God, a Naval Academy guy going to run McHale's Navy? Are you kidding me? And so Bill Robinson shows up. And he took one look at me for some reason. And he said, I don't know how, I don't know if you're going to do very well in the teams.

I say, okay. He says, yeah, first thing, you need a haircut, you know. Because I was really. taking this role that they described in this thing seriously. But being a Naval Academy grad, he couldn't exactly embrace the same thing that I was embracing. And so he says, I'll tell you what, I'm good friends with Jack Sutteth. And Jack Southth was the head of the training department. He says, I'm going to see if I can get you a job over there. I said, who, talk about the briar patch. Yeah. I mean, that's a hell of a deal. Yeah, you get me into the training department.

I'm fine. The training department at UDT? Yeah. Okay. At building 208. And so. But this wasn't the training department that ran basic training. Yes.

This is like, oh, it is. Yeah. So you were going to be like a UDT instructor. UDT instructor. And how long have you been at the team for? Well, that was in December. I got in in August. So, what, September, October, November.

I was in three months. And this guy looks at you and says, you probably going to be better off than an instructor? Yeah. How was that? And I was all for it. And so I went over in the training unit, and I just loved it.

It was a guy, I mean, who, that being an instructor is a great deal. And, you know, I was qualified. I mean, I could run, I could do all that stuff, you know, and I knew everything about what trainees go through. But I had no, I did not deploy. I didn't, you know, I did. We did a couple of practice runs, but I, but Bill felt that it was better for the overall

organization if I was there or not with him. And so I was there. So I finished out my, my, my Naval's career there. And then, uh, how many years were you instructor for? Two and a half years. And you put through how many classes, like 10, 15 classes? Well, it was, 30, 31, 32, 3, 3, well, 30, 30, class. Class 30, 31, 32, 33, and start of 34.

Because my brother was in class 35. And then we, yeah, and he, you know, I was out by the time Danny started, my brother. What did you learn about humans and their ability to push through when you were an instructor as compared to when you were going through? yourself. I never was an instructor and so I never got to see kind of the other side of it, but I've, you know, obviously got a bunch of friends that were instructors and it was interesting some of the takeaways that they'd have from watching people go through these extremely stressful scenarios. You know, that's a good point and a good question. And there's probably a lot about that that's profound and would be instructive. And I

I think I just, the way I operated, it was probably just on my gut, you know, and I'd see guys come into training and you could tell, gee, is this guy's going to make it or not? And it was great watching them, the ones that are determined and that are really, it's like probably like being a coach, you know, like I know my son played water polo and, you know, and the coach is, a good coach, assesses his players, you know, really well and thoughtfully. And I think you could, I think probably what I remember thinking that about, I can't think of any specific case, but I remember kind of making a judgment based on what I saw of their performance, you know, in the training. So I, that's about, and I couldn't, I don't guess I had, I could differentiate the ones that could make it and not.

I mean, between the ones that could make it and not, I could differentiate between them. But then you have a group of trainees that got through and, you know, other than the common deal that they were determined and focused and worked hard and committed. It seems strange that they're really, over all these years, they've never been able to figure out who's going to make it and who's not going to make in it. It doesn't matter if you were a Division I wrestler or a Division I water polar player, you might quit and you might make it. And you could be a person that doesn't know how to swim,

like your buddy there. You'd think never in a million of the years this person can be, and they can make it. They've just not really figured it out. You really figured out who's going to make it and who's not going to make it. Right. Well, you know, it just reminds me there was a guy, an officer in my class when we were doing the two-week pre-officer deal. And he was an Olympic swimmer.

He was a backstroker. And he went to Yale. God, I haven't thought about him until this moment. But he was in my class. Now, I remember this other guy in my classroom. He was a swimmer at Dartmouth, and he was, you know, he knew all about good swimmers. And he swam against this guy. He says, yeah, old shit, yeah, he's, he was in the Olympics, you know, he said, oh, my God, yeah.

And I remember him, and he quit after two days. You know, he couldn't run. He could swim. They're going to figure out what you're weak at, aren't they? Yeah, aren't they, though? Yeah. It's going to, you have to be, you have to be, I was kind of lucky that I was, I was okay. at kind of everything.

I wasn't going to win anything. I never want to run. I don't think I ever want to run my entire time in the SEAL teams. I don't think I ever want to swim. In fact, I can know I never want to swim. But I was kind of like okay at pretty much everything. And that is a better way to be than to be an Olympic swimmer. Oh, yeah.

I'll be able to run. Yeah, you bet you. That doesn't work. I think this guy's name was Dolby. I have to look him up. But yeah, I remember, gosh, he was. He just wasn't built for running and all the land stuff. It's a good thing he never got to the obstacle course

because he probably would have died. But he was great in the water, though. So you spend these two and a half years putting students through, seeing that side of things. And then it's just your time is up in the Navy. Yep. And you decide you're going to move on. I had to go get a job.

And, see, my heritage, a lot of the way I was formed growing up was the whole boarding school, the corporate deal. My dad was a corporate guy, and that's naturally what I'm going to be doing. And then when I got in UDT, I realized that's not how I have to live my life. But I signed up for a corporate job anyway, and I was in this management training program back in Baltimore, Maryland. And I love the company's wonderful. It's this McCormick and company. They sell spices and the people, the nicest bunch of people I've met in any group.

And they were so great to me and everything getting started. But I realized, I remember my first day of work. I was up on the sixth floor of this building. And I spent the whole day in there. And as I was, it was all sunny and bright when my wife dropped me off at work. at night when I come down it was about six and it was still it was summertime so it was still light

and I could tell it had rained during the day and I said what's this all about? It rained while I was in this building and I wasn't even aware of it and I said this is not how I want to live. I don't want to live in an office so then

I stuck with the training program for a couple of years and then I had to make a move so I did And I ended up, a friend of mine was teaching school at Ponoho School in Hawaii. So I said, so I wrote him, I said, you got any openings out there? So he got me a job as a teacher at Puneho. And I said, boy, from Baltimore to Honolillo, that's not a bad switch.

You're tracking your brother as he goes through training. training and you know he's he's doing good makes it through training yeah um what is he writing new letters how are you is he calling you on the phone how are you how are you tracking like like you said we don't have uh cell phones in our pockets back then i think you're right right no it's much different of course but i think phone calls uh we would call long distance and it would always cost a whole bunch of money to to call long distance in those days but it wasn't that onerous and we could, we could, we could, we knew what was going on. And, and as that's happening, and now he's in the teams, now Vietnam is sort of in, you know, escalating very rapidly.

Yeah. And is he talking to you about the fact that he's probably going to end up deploying to Vietnam? No, he was planning on going into the training unit just like I did. And thought, thought for sure that that would happen. But then, and he did, did one deployment in Vietnam. And then came back. And that was at a UDT deployment? Yes.

He was with 12. No, he was with Team 11. So he does a UDT deployment to Vietnam. And they're doing the kind of UDT stuff working a little bit. But it wasn't really, well, I shouldn't say that because I've talked to a bunch of UD cut T guys that did some really dangerous stuff in Vietnam. Oh, they were doing ambushes and stuff.

They were playing with guns and stuff. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was different and and he came home and what was his what were his thoughts about that deployment what do you tell you about that uh well he he he just thought that he wasn't sure how how much he and how purposeful it seemed to him i mean he wasn't rebellious he was going along with the program and happy to be a part of the team and and all of that but it wasn't he was just it was just something he had to do. He glad he did it and got it done. But then the whole Vietnam spirit is pretty pretty grim, even with the teams, even with great people like

UDT guys. And it's just no one really knew what they were doing. And they'll tell you, gosh, we went over there and we didn't, we weren't really sure what was going on. And then he, he, did tell me like this one instance they were setting up, had an ambush all set up, and then some VC come down in the river. And they, and Danny said that he had his gun up ready and he was ready to let it rip. And then he felt this tap on his shoulder. And there was this, Doc, I forgot his last name, but he was a medic guy. And he said, he shook him off. And so Danny kind of lowered his weapon, and then next thing you know,

there's a whole boatload of them coming down. And somehow the doc was aware Danny wasn't, but the doc said, hey, we don't want to play guns here just now. We're outnumbered, and sure enough, they got through that. But it was that kind of thing that was going on in Vietnam. No one never really knew what. what was happening and he so he gets back and then he was hoping that his next deal would be to get assigned to the training unit and um but instead he got he got assigned to seal team one and they were heading out they were going to

deploy to vietnam you know shortly and i remember his friend of ours lou He was an officer in the teams because Danny was married and Lou said, hey, and Danny was past because he wanted to go to the training unit, you know. And so, but he's fine with it. That's what I'm going to do. And so Lou said, hey, you know, a single guy. And he said, you know, let me take your place. I'll take your place and I'll go in the teams and you can go to the training unit. Because Lou was in the training unit already.

And Danny said, no, it's, I'm going to see this through, you know, so he did. And so it's just kind of the thing it works out. And then so he goes on to deployment of Vietnam. Did you hear from him while he was over there? Not from him. But he was over there for about a week and I got a phone call. from his, from the COO SEAL Team 1, who was Frank Anderson.

He said that, he said that Danny was killed. And I, so that's the last I heard. The first and the last I heard of that deployment. And I was in Baltimore at the time. Did that make the cubicle you were sitting in all day seem even smaller? Well, I had pretty much committed to moving out of that cubicle anyhow, so that in and of itself wasn't a problem. But it did raise the, you know, and of course my parents were devastated

and stuff as were the parents of 50,000 other people. But it did, and then that was in April. And so in August I would be coming back out for the, we all, you had to go two weeks of training because of the reserve commitment. So you were still in the reserves? I was still in the reserve. So I was destined to come back to Coronado and do that. in August and so but I knew I knew then I probably would figure out a way to do

something else I actually during that two-week deal I found out about Ponoho and already made a plan to get out of the cubicle but but going to but it did raise a question of should I go back in? And because Frank asked, he says, he says, he didn't ask me to come back in, but he said that, uh, I brought it, I kind of mentioned it to and he says, well, boy, if you want to come back, I'd love to have you, you know, because we got along well. And actually, Bill Robinson, the guy that sent me to the trainee, and we ended up becoming

real close friends, but, um, but, uh, but Frank says, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, if you, we could use, We need people and we'd love to have you back. I said, well, I'll think about it. I was wrestling with that for a few months. And then we got done with one of those, during those two weeks, we got a lot of briefings from guys that were in Vietnam, and they would tell us what was going on. And usually we were, and so we'd get,

get we'd listen to those and and I remember we were out in a break during those briefings and I was we were out kind of smoking cigarettes and just kind of hanging out and taking a break and and Tom Terussi who had just got back from Vietnam and I were talking he he he he he I put him through training and we were good friends and so I I mentioned during the deal that I was thinking of going back in, and he looked at me and he shook his head. He says, it's all bullshit.

The Vietnam's all bullshit. He says, you don't want to go back in. And for some reason, I think he was right about Vietnam. I mean, I think everybody realized that that was a mistake. It was a horrible mistake. And a lot of people, it costs the country a lot. And it costs a lot of families a lot. So I, my personal decision was, you know,

I'd probably another month. I decided that, no, it's not the right thing to do. I guess I thought of my parents. I thought it, I just, I just thought about the whole Vietnam thing, I guess. And I'm not sure exactly what caused me to come to that, come to that decision. But it just, it just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do. Yeah, I can't even imagine trying to, you know, you trying to tell your parents that you were going to make that decision. that doesn't seem like that would have been the right thing to do in that scenario.

Who knows? You know, I didn't, I never really got that far, so I didn't have to really hurt my head over it. But it's a decision I made. So you stay in the reserves, though? Yes. Well, you were obligated to. So I stayed in for about seven more years. and then got out.

But it was, I was more into living in Hawaii and teaching school and getting, oh, and kids were showing up. Showing that. Yeah. When did you start surfing? I was a ripe old age of 22 in Coronado when I first got to Coronado.

And they, you know, like I said, when I first pulled in there in those, cars with the boards hanging out and everything were God, just so compelling. So I signed up and I bought a board, bought a hobby, Phil Edwards bottle, and Dana Point and drove up there and got it and started surfing. Was that before Dana Point was they put all the... Yeah.

Oh, man. Was it as good as, like, Malibu? How good was it? It usually was bigger. Yeah, it was as good as Malibu. and it was this huge and it was usually a big swell Northswell

and then it was it was killer Dana so that must have hurt being in Baltimore as well now you can't surf yeah although I did go to Rojoboth Beach okay yeah yeah we went there a couple of times

and yeah but it really had to get back to California really important and then you end up in Hawaii you're teaching school and you're just getting more and more, or I should say, I guess continuing to find other ways to be involved in the water at this time? Yes, and then it was, I got really interested in Outweger canoe racing.

And so I joined this canoe club, and there was one other guy there that was a holly guy, and the rest were low coin, and we got on a crew, and I loved it, and became real good friends with the coach, his baby Bell, and he was great. How long are those races? Well, you have the regattas,

and so if you're like I was senior men, and those are about a mile, and you have buoys, you go around and around. And then you have the distance races after the regatta season is over, and then you have the distance races. You know, there's one that runs from Kailua to, Waikiki, 20-something.

And then the granddaddy of all the canoe race is the Molokai race, which goes from Hollyolono Harbor and on Molokai to Waikiki. And so... And how big... How many people are in the canoe? Six. And then like when you do those long distance races, you have nine people in the canoe. And you...

Three or... resting and then you just change and you make water changes as you go and you change every 20 minutes or so and it's about a six hour race so it's it's you it's you have to be in pretty good shape but it's but you do you know you just get and how'd you do in all those races well the first year we let me see i guess our first year we were really bummed yeah we we got beat by wikiki He served an outrigger. We were third. And then the next year, we won it.

And then the next year after that, we won it. And then my last year, I was up on the mainland starting to work for Chart House. But they said I could come back and paddle with them in the Molokai race. So I went back and we did pretty well, but we didn't win it. But it was a good race. and is that what your transition was out of teaching school going to work at the chart house it was yeah i was teaching i was working on i was waiting on tables in wakiki key uh while i was teaching school i worked at chuck steakhouse uh was at the outrigger hotel and buzzes steak and lobster

who was down on beach beach walk and um yeah i i i knew i knew i wanted to go to work for for the the chart house because there were a couple of UDT guys that were actually there's one UDT guy and then Joey Cabell who's a big time surfer that started the very first chart house in Aspen and his name is Buzzy Bent and then Buzzy and Ron Smith were classmates in UDT class 16 is 16 or 19 but it was before me and I became friends with Ron who's a dynamic character and just a great personality. And he was, at this point, in the late 60s, he was president of Chart House.

And then Buzzie was kind of retired. And John was, Ron was running the company. And that's, so I wrote him a letter. I said, hey, I'm working at a steakhouse and waking key. You got any openings. And he says, sure, yeah, come on. So I ended up working for the Chart House. And what did you do at the Chart House?

So there was a chart house in Coronado when I was in Buds and when I got the SEAL Team 1. And man, I used to go to that chart house, I don't know, like once a week, maybe once every other week, and get prime rib. And it was weird because when I grew up, we didn't eat a lot of steak when I was growing up.

So I didn't even start liking steak and prime rib until I was like in the Navy because then I could buy it myself. But I used to go to chart house with my buddies. And but we, and I knew. I knew, like there was some, I had some knowledge that this was some kind of team guys that owned this thing, but I never made any connections with anybody, never, like, never talked to anybody, no one ever said anything about it.

So were you involved in that chart house in the early 90s in Coronado? Well, I even before that, I started in 71. Oh, damn. The chart house has been around since the 70s. Yeah, I think they did the, oh, yeah, the first one in Aspen was 1960. I think. It opened on July July 4th.

And then the second one was in Newport and that was, I remember I was in the Navy when we ate it at the Newport one. And then that was the second one and the third one was at Shelter Island.

Okay. Yeah, on Shelter Island. Okay. And that's when Ron joined the company and yeah, he got out of the Navy about 64, 65, and then went to work because of Buzzy. He and Buzzy were tight.

And this is someone you said named Buzzy Bent. Yeah. Not Buzzy Trent, the surfer. No, the surf guy. Yeah, no, no, it was a busy bent. It was a great surfer himself. And so you were working as a waiter in Hawaii. Right.

And you write these guys a letter. They're old team guys. You're an old team guy. And they're like, yeah, we'll hire you. Yeah. Did you tell me you were a waiter? Did you tell him you had some big management position? No, no, I told him.

I was a waiter. I was a seat. And I knew Ron fairly well at this point, personally, you know. And so he, he believed me, you know, that I, and so we had kind of a training program. This was in 71 when I came, I came back, I came back from Honolillo to Redondo Beach and did a training program there for a few months. And then they, Ron, and actually John Creed, the other guy who was the executive vice president, he was an old surf guy and water guy. And they said, they were talking about, gee, we'd like to get a restaurant, a chart house in Hawaii.

And there was one there, but it wasn't part of the corporate chart house on the mainland. So I said, well, gosh, you ought to buy a restaurant from Jerry McDonald. He has them on Maui. And so we ended up, so we ended up buying the sugar cane inn, which is in Lahaina, and then made a chart house out of that. And that was my first real assignment with chart house is to go open that, build it, get it ready for business. And that was my first kind of real assignment after my train.

What year was that? That was in 1972 is when we, because Danny was born in November of 72. We went over in December of 72 and bought the chart house. And then we've stayed there. Actually, I have to, I got to acknowledge the heroic wife I had at that point. She gave birth to Danny on November 11th, 1972. and December 10th or 11th, we were on Maui. She was a month old child, months after giving birth,

and we were opening a restaurant. And she courageously charged through it and did great. Probably no one else could have to do that. And so how long were you running that chart house? I ran that baby for a baby for a. about a year and then I came back to the, let me see, I had a, oh yeah, and I came back to the mainland, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. We, I ran that for about a year, and then about that time Chart House was getting bought by another, by another corporation. It was a big, it was

the largest franchisee of Burger King restaurants. So they wanted to diversify. And so they bought the chart house at that point consisted of about seven or eight restaurants. And at that point, so they asked me to come back for that to be a kind of a regional manager guy in California. So we moved back. And again, it was almost the same sort of experience

I had in Baltimore. I said, it's getting pretty corporate guys. And so how about can I go back to Maui? And so I went back to Maui and we stayed there for quite a while. Still with the chart house? Still with the chart house. Yeah, I went back there and then I ran the chart house that I had opened a year earlier as a manager. And then we started developing restaurants in the islands.

And then I became kind of a regional guy out there then. And how long did you stick it out in that business? I stuck it out. I was there. Let me see. So 70. Because the restaurant business is really hard. Well, it is.

Although as many of us from Chart House like to say is that I wouldn't work for a restaurant company unless it was a charge house. I mean, Chart House was pretty, well, you just described it. It's a special place. And in fact, today, even though the chart house is no owner in existence, there's a kind of a Facebook group that has the old chart house employees, friends, and so on. And they're, boy, they're just, it's a great group. They're very dedicated to the charthouse. And he says, I do you remember this when this happened? And somebody fell in their face in the avocado dip.

So there's a lot of history there that gets retold in Facebook forms. Well, how long did you stick with it then? And then, well, I stuck with it until about 76. And then I built my own restaurant up in Makawao. And I just made it, I just ripped the chart house off. We had a salad bar and we had our deal. But it took off. It was a great restaurant.

very, very busy. And so we ran that for a while. We were living in Lahaina, and it was about a 45-minute drive up to Makawa, and it was, I wasn't, I was kind of getting tired of that. So I asked the chart house guys if they wanted to sell any chart houses. So I ended up buying another chart house right outside of Boston in Duxbury, Massachusetts. And again, my courageous wife, who was pregnant with our youngest child. And we loaded up and went there, ran that restaurant for about a year. And then our little baby Dougie was born there.

And then we, and then Chart House, they ended up buying that restaurant back from me. and then offered me a job back with the company in California because they were going to do a leverage buyout from Pillsbury. By this time, Pillsbury owned the Charge House. And they were going to do a leverage buyout. So he asked me to come on back and help with that.

So where did you go? Where did you move back to? Coronado. Back to Coronado. And what year was that? She's 85. And now you're still working with Chart House. Yeah.

Are you having to go to the restaurants every day? What are you doing? Well, I was a regional manager guy, and then, oh, I was in their training department for a while, and then I was a regional manager guy. And my region, I was living in Coronado. My region was in Hawaii and Colorado. And so I had three fairly nice places. I was going to say rough tours.

Rough tour. How long did you stick with that for? that up until the time sam zell bought the chart house which was in 98 or something like that and sam zell he's a huge real estate guy and he's the biggest real estate owner in the world or something like that yeah i mean i was i was talking with an accountant that knew him in chicago and she said that the saying in chicago is that if sam jumps out of a 20-story building you ought to jump after him because he's probably going to make money on the way down. So the, yeah, and so I did, I stuck with that until 98.

And then I moved back to Coronado. And then we, oh, and then Danny, my other boy said that, well, why don't you come, want you to be a lifeguard? I said, geez, really? Okay. So was he a lifeguard at this time? Yeah, he was at North Island. We were...

And how old were you at this point? I was about to turn 50 or 60. I was about to turn to 60. And he's telling you you should become a lifeguard. Yeah. And so I went through a lifeguard training. So this whole time, are you just in the water still and you're still working out? Are you still training?

Like, how are you staying in group? I'm thinking about going to a lifeguard academy at age 55 or 60, you? or 50, even 40, whatever. Whatever it was, I'm not sure. I think I went through in 99, so that's 60. Is that 60? Yeah, that's 60. Yeah.

So you're 60 years old going through the Life Guard Academy. Well, I think I was a couple years younger. I was in my late 50s, so. Okay. And how are you staying in shape all this time? Oh, I worked out. So you work out every day religiously? Even now, and I'm about as decrepit as you can get,

but I do something. And it's an embarrassment. You know, people laugh at me as I go down the beach and everything. But that's tough. Now, how about what you're eating when you're working at all these restaurants? You've got free access to like all kinds of food all day and night. How are you not just power it into, you know, those, that freaking hot brown bread that they used to have at the treehouse? How are you not freaking putting on like 80 pounds of excess fat from that?

Well, I think that's really. my motive for working out is that, hey, if you work out hard enough, you can eat anything you want. And I say in order to keep my eating lifestyle functioning and flourishing, then I work out. But lately, you know, I've got these children that are Nazis about food. I can't eat this. I can't eat that. So I'm a little more disciplined. So how many hours a day would you say?

you worked out like when you were let's just say you're 40 years old you're working at the chart house how many hours a day you're working out you're going for a for an hour run two hour run you're doing pt on the beach what are you doing well we got into cycling too okay and uh cyclists yeah they're really crazy and so i got a little bit of fringe craziness out of that and we would we would we would ride well like my daughter and i did a we've got a tandem bike and we rode from aspen to Taos, New Mexico, which is about two, 250 miles. And then we rode from there to, well, we drove down to Albuquerque, and then we rode from Albuquerque back to San Diego.

And she was right there with me. And we did, I don't know, 100 something a day, something like that. But those were, that's more long. I think probably the most important thing from, me is the consistency of working out. And I have a friend, he says, motion is lotion. And, Guy, you know, that really, if you keep moving, you're going to be all right, you know. And it's like this morning, I hadn't been in the water for a few weeks. And when I went to bed last night, I said, you're in Coronado. The first thing you knew tomorrow is you'd get on your

paddle board and you go for a paddle. And paddling is important for me because, like I said, I'm pretty decrepit and kind of a physical disgrace, but I can still paddle, I hope. And we're going to find out tomorrow morning. So I did go for a paddle this morning for about half an hour, 45 minutes. And then I intend to lengthen that out. But I spend some time in Taos, and the problem there is the paddling isn't – I mean, it can be – done but you have to go down to the river river which is which I'm happy to do but I in the winter's a little nippy you know so but when I go back I'll probably go back next week

and but I'm gonna get get to paddling because I got in the boy my first couple strokes off on my board this morning it was like the tin man and Oz man you couldn't she so we you know you could hear the sirens going on call 911. This geyser, yeah, this geyser, he just pulled away from the dock, and I don't think he'll make it. But you know what? The miracle of paddling is, by gum, after about 15 or 20 minutes, the pains that I was feeling was first couple strokes, I didn't feel them anymore.

And, you know, and you're like, okay, I'm going to pick it up here a little bit. And, gee, by the end of it, I felt fine, you know, so. That's the motion is the lotion, I guess. Exactly. So you end up going through the Lifeguard Academy. Yep. And you actually become a lifeguard? Oh, yeah.

Becomes your job? You know what? I realized I was kind of, I had about 10 years in with North Island. And then I got fired because this lady took over all the lifeguards. And she found out that we were drinking beer in the tower at three. I wasn't with them, but some of these young fellows were. a little less discipline and got busted. And so I was part of that great, hellie.

And got, so, you know, I ended up. So you got fired as a lifeguard. Now you're what? You were like 60 years old, 60-something years old? For being a miscreant drinking beer on the job? Yeah, I was getting in my 60s. And I wasn't, I wasn't even part of the fire. They just fired everybody?

Well, she fired that group. And then I was up, was in New Mexico or something, and I came back, and I wanted my job back, and she just wouldn't give it back to me. So I guess I didn't actually get fired, but I sure didn't get a rehired. So then Coronado, I don't know if Sean Kerry, who's the captain down there, is a wonderful human being. And he said, he says, he said, well, you know, well, Dougie and I tried out that same, that same, yeah, We both would decide.

Yeah. So you and your youngest son try out for the life cards at the same time. Were we, was that the summer before you got married? Yeah, I think it was. I think it was. He and I go down. Oh, yeah, that was it. And there were eight of us that were going to be applying to be a life card job.

And so this guy, the guy that was running the PT stuff that we had to do in order to qualify, he had us all up and the first thing was a swim out to the buoy and back and then we had to run up the beach to the other end of the beach, you know, 150 yards or something like that. And then there were a couple of other little deals like that. And I remember there were eight of us and half of them were girls. And Dougie was first on all the events and I was last on all the events. And I remember after that first one, swim out and running up the beach. And I got to, and there was, Dougie was at the finish line already. He was toweled up.

I think he was having a sandwich by the time I got there. And so I finally get there. And then this guy was timing it. And I was kind of bent over holding myself up, propping myself up on the knees. And I kind of saw it in my mouth to Dougie. guy said, how did I make it, you know? He says, yeah, no, you're good, you're good. You know, so I guess I got there just in time.

But I, so then I, they hired me. And then the second year, and I, you know, I was hired with the city. And then, and then the next year, you know, I was off for the wintertime because they let everybody go. But the next, that summer I was invited back. and I went down to the tower and I said God do we have that that PT stuff and I said I got to start training for that and and the sergeant there at the time says no you've already been on you don't have to do that those events anymore I said so like I say you know God God has had a hand and sparing me through a lot of stuff that I didn't have to so I you know so I stayed on for about 10 years

and then yeah about a year and a half ago two years I guess I've missed a couple of summers and it's a heartbreak I drive by there and wistfully look out at the tower I used to work in

and I wish I had my old job back but it's a hearing deal some doctor just jabbed me on the the hearing he said I couldn't hear certain voices because they were a certain range. And so anyhow, I couldn't qualify as a lifeguard anymore.

And I argued that, well, I'm not sure that the hearing is that big a part of lifeguarding. But anyhow, I can't find so, you know, I walked away begrudgingly. Now, it seems like along the way, I've talked to some of the, I guess it's the next generation, maybe a seals a little bit younger than me, maybe 10 years behind me. And I guess it's when you were in Coronado that you developed a bunch of relationships and mentored a bunch of these, the next generation guys coming up. They all love you. Well, they were wonderful guys.

I mean, that's, I love that all come about. Well, lifeguarding. There was, Sam was at the beach, peppers at the beach. There were others. Oh, and then Charlie who was, you know, Charlie Keating, who, wow, he, he, he, I've known him because he was a Sony, and he would come over and he's just this wonderful kid. And he started coming over when he was like 13, 14 years old. And so you remember him, Chuck Keating, when he was 13, 14 years old. Yeah, because he would stay up.

Right. He would stay at my house. Oh, okay. With Doug. How did you, how did you, how'd that happen? I mean, well, oh, well, his cousin Bobby and Mikey were, their names, Worszelbock, but they're Keating family kids. And Charlie was one of their cousins.

Got it. One of their 800 cousins, you know, and Catholics, you know. So they, but so that's how I got acquainted with Charlie and became a dear friend and wonderful. guy, you know, just a great guy. And so in the summers, it sounds from talking to some of his friends that you were kind of the reason he decided to go in the teams.

I'm not aware of that. Necessarily, I knew, oh, well, his dad did call me and said, hey, Lance, Charlie's talking about going in the teams. I said, can you help? I said, well, I'll do anything I can. So I looked in it.

I think I found a name or something. didn't do much of anything really except referred him to somebody who really could help him. And so that's how he got in the teams. But I'm real close with that whole family. And Charlie, who was killed, dad's name, his name is Charlie also. And he knew about my brother Danny. And so there's, and then Charlie's brother Billy. He's also in the teams, or was in the teams, I think he's getting out,

knew about my brother, and so there's a kinship there that we feel as family. And we, you know, we stay in touch. And on May, I think it's May 3rd is when Charlie was killed in 2016, was it? Yeah, 2016, he was killed. And so anyhow, Charlie and I, you know, when I go to Rosecrans, I'll take a picture and send it to them. And that's one thing good about these damn iPhones. You know, you can communicate, boom, when you want to, you know. Yeah.

And, yeah, he's definitely a special guy. I mean, when he was coming up in the teams, you know, I was in a position where I was teaching land warfare and stuff like this. Oh, okay. And so I would see faces, you know, I'd see guys. Yeah, but unless someone was either really good or really bad, I probably wouldn't remember me. You know, he was, you know, one of the guys, I remember this guy. And, but man, like, some of the, like, the stories you hear about, about Chuck is just like he was just a freaking epic guy. And he's one of those guys, you know, you look at all these pictures of him that you just, you just know that this guy was just, uh, such an awesome guy to have in your platoon.

And he left such a mark on so many of the team guy. buddies of his and yeah uh got a great thing going now they got the the c4 ranch up here in san diego which is a beautiful place a bunch of awesome people and it gives gives guys a place to be able to go and unwind and take their families and spend time in nature and all that kind of stuff so the his his name is is living on and he's still helping the his brother seals through that thing that he's doing yeah i yeah no for sure it's a great legacy and very worthwhile and I know his dad's

involved and then Brooke his wife I think is really involved and so yeah it's important and significant and yeah they found a great piece of property up there and I think it serves it's filling out the mission in a great way

yeah yeah so you retired I guess from the lifeguarding thing that's what happened and so And so what are you up to now? You know, that's kind of a problem. Drinking beer with the youngsters getting in trouble. And I lately I spend more time feeling sorry for myself than I should, you know.

And then Dougie and I were talking. And we actually, I got involved with Dougie. my son who, and then this guy, Sam, Blair, down in Louisiana, who was in the teams and then moved to Louisiana. And they started talking about developing a coffee company. And Dougie and I were just chatting about it. And I started thinking, God, is this another wonderful thing that's coming to me

that I can participate in. And so Dougie has asked me to, well, we just chat. We just naturally assume that I would have a small role in, nothing too responsible that requires any talent or anything, but something that I could be involved myself with. And, I mean, it was the God thing again. You know, maybe this is a blessing of sorts. So we've just been fiddling around with it for a few weeks.

weeks, but we want to start this coffee company. Because we're pretty sure we've got a great source. There's a guy down in Louisiana who is the sole importer of this coffee. It's grown in Honduras. And the only importer in the U.S. is importing this coffee. And it's coming from Louisiana, which I love. you know, it's across the lake from New Orleans, I mean, going, you know. And so it's all sort of coming together.

And so at 82, soon to be 83, you know, there were times, because like my roommate from Tulane, who was 83, a great deal older than me, he was 83. And he's told me, he says, hey, man, you don't want to be 83. It's really rough, you know. So I said, oh, shucks. Okay, so anyhow, he's just telling me that it's not good. So there were a couple, ever since I got, couldn't make, couldn't pass a hearing test because I'm so goddamn old. So I can't pass a hearing test, so I can no longer do what I love to do and be with the people I love to be.

and, you know, I'd wake up in the morning. And I remember one morning I woke up and I looked on my, you know, just kind of looking over the side of my bed and I could see, I could see some dust balls onto this table near my bed. And I said, you know, that's probably about the most important thing you got on your list to do today is clean those goddamn puff balls up. And I said, hey, man, life's got to be better than this. We've got to do something.

And so when we started talking about developing a coffee company, I'm really excited about it, you know, and I'm with it. Probably one of those creative guys I know, my fourth child, and he's artistic and comes up with great ideas, and he's entrepreneurial and spirit. And yeah, hell yeah. We're going to make a coffee company, by golly. And so it's obviously we're just starting it. We think it's going to be great. Well, we know it's going to be great. But, you know, that's what I'm doing now.

I'm a coffee guy now. I'm kind of the Colonel Sanders of coffee. What's the name of the coffee company going to be? Called Big Yellow Coffee. Big Yellow. What's that all about? Well, you weren't aware of it when you came up to us as we were out in the parking lot, but my van. Oh, the van is a big yellow. Big yellow. And I've had that puppy since Dougie was a

junior in high school. And so it, it, so that we've got, and, you know, because, like I say, the guy's artistic as hell. He designed the coffee bag for it and everything. And it's the big yellow coffee company. And if you don't think the coffee isn't going to go flying off the shelf, man, you haven't lived it's going to be great I really from what I know about coffee

I expect to know a lot more from now on you know the the components sound good I mean this guy's a sole importer of coffee of this particular

coffee from Honduras and the thing that's really significant about this coffee guy is that he's the only one that we're going to buy coffee from and we're uh we don't we're not going to be like you know he's a sole distributor this kind of a sole grower right yeah he's the guy in honduras uh origin yeah it's going to be a single single origin um source do we have do we have a website yet it's

in the works. In the works. Oh, no. What's the website? Big yellow coffee.com. Big yellow coffee.com. Yeah. And if you can't get through right away, just be patient.

You'll be able to get in. Well, it sounds like that brings us up to present date. Probably a good place to stop. We have to give Echo. Yes. The opportunity. You know, I'm sure there's maybe some Hawaiian questions coming down to to fight.

What we got? Sure. Very small but significant. Oh, sure. Wait, so the place up in Makawa, that was a chart house? No, no. Well, it was mine. It was called Makawa Steakhouse, and I owned it myself.

Makawau, upcountry, also known as Upcountry, Maui, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Also, what was the name of your canoe club? Hayalani. Hayalani Canoe Club. And then what did you teach at Puno? I taught fifth grade for the first two years. And then my last year, I went from what, from the fifth grade to the academy and I taught ninth and tenth grade English there.

Did Barack Obama go there? Did you teach Barack Obama? Well, you know, I was going to say what was interesting is I had I remained in teaching fifth grade, I would have, he came in that next fifth grade class where I went up to the academy, which again, God, you know, for his sake, he probably. He was saved by the bell. He would end up a surfer somewhere. Yeah, he may have been a great water guy, you know, who knows. Yeah, no, he dodged a bullet. And then the Chuck Steakhouse and the Outrigger, which Outrigger is that?

I mean, back in, because now Outrigger's everywhere. Yeah. There's a bunch? Yeah. Oh, nowadays? Yeah, every corner. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so at the one right there and right there at Waikiki Beach.

The main one where Dukes is now. Yeah, next, huh? Yeah, there's a place called Dukes now. Yeah, it was up a couple floors above. Where Dukes is. Okay, right on. And, yeah, next to the Moana Hotel. Yep.

That's where we stayed last time we went. Oh, there you go. Boom. There you go. Yeah. So, but Chuck, guy, he's a, he'd be a great. He's another guy. Chuck Roll is a guy that started Chuck Steakhouses.

Wonderful guy. I'm hoping he's still alive, but I don't know. He's a geyser. We'll leave it at what he'll be still alive. We don't have to follow up with a butt on that one. We'll just call it. Hope he still alive. I'm sure he's still alive.

I'm sure he's still alive. alive. Sure. Awesome. Awesome. Lance, you got any closing thoughts you want to

close out with? Just thank you very much for the opportunity. Appreciate it. Nice to meet you. Echo Lender. And you,

you too. Yeah, no, I guess that's all. I'm just grateful and thank you. Well, right on,

like I said, I actually heard about you through this young generation of the, I guess the generation behind me, I want to make myself sound old or make them sound young.

They're all grown men that are, you know, deep into the teams now. But those were the guys that kind of told me about what you passed on to them. So it's awesome to have you on here. And thanks for sharing some of those lessons learned. And thanks for your service. And thanks for the service and sacrifice of your brother as well. You know, we owe everything to you guys that put in the work in the early days. and created the tradition that we all try and uphold.

So thanks for joining us, and thanks for everything you and your family have done. Thank you. And with that, Lance Mann has left the building. Pretty awesome guy to hang out with for a couple hours. Yeah. And by the way, just note, multiple times, multiple times he kind of referred to himself as like,

decrepit and all this stuff. This dude's 83 years old, 82 years old, almost 8, 8, 3 years old. He is not decrepit. No. And he is in great shape. And I'm sure maybe he's not in as good shape as he was when he was 22 years old going through UDT training. But what an awesome guy and, you know, live in it. Yeah.

Yeah, you know how you can tell. Like even young people, younger people, whatever, kind of just when they walk up to you and, you know, how they kind of talk and hold himself and walk from here to there. You can kind of tell. You know, you have a small little gauge of, oh. And, yeah, when he rolls up, it's kind of like, this guy is pretty impressive for 82. He's just how he's just rolling up. Yeah, well, actually, you just don't even think he's 82, right?

You just, you think maybe he looks old for, you know, oh, this guy looks pretty old for a 51-year-old. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. That's kind of the impression you get from the way he's carrying himself. So definitely a, definitely a stud. And pretty cool. The fact that he's had this influence on like this younger generation,

I hate, again, I feel like I sound like I'm being condescending when I call the guys kind of whatever behind me. Not right behind me, but, you know, like 10 years, 15 years behind me and the teams, that's sort of the next generation. I don't even know if that means next generation. But this guy was a real mentor and inspiration to a bunch of those guys. So that's kind of how I heard about him. and pretty cool to have them on here and talk through some of this stuff and definitely a you know there's a couple things I heard about him was like one thing I heard about it and we didn't bring this up again you know I look back and was like God apparently he just never wears a wetsuit when surfing and stuff which is you know this dude is you know we're all like cold cold immersion you know I have an ice bath you know taking a he's just going surfing for two hours with no wetsuit which by the way it's cold in Southern California it's cold it's not warm. Hawaii is warm. You don't really need a wetsuit.

Did you ever wear a wetsuit when you were sponging in Hawaii? No, never. Yeah. So you don't really need a wetsuit in Hawaii. Correction, you don't need a wetsuit. You don't. Okay, you don't need a wetsuit in Hawaii. Especially when you compare to here.

Even the coldest in Hawaii, it's kind of like, okay, I'll get out after three hours. Usually it's like eight, nine hours. You can be in the water. Yeah. That is so luxury, isn't it? Hawaii's kind of a little bit of paradise, isn't it in a way? It is a little bit of. Imagine he moved from Baltimore to Hawaii.

Yeah, very different. That's a game changer. So, awesome. Awesome to have him on here. It was, you know, obviously it was difficult for him to talk about his brother. Even after all these years, you know, his brother kind of followed his footsteps and ended up being killed in Vietnam. And, you know, I read a little bit about that. He, he, they were, they were basically in a gun fight on.

on a ship or on a small boat and they took some either mortars or rocket fire and ended up killing two seals lieutenant jg Dan man who we talked about but also a another seal named last name of Boston and then another one named Neil who died of wounds later and you know that's another thing that you know you get to hear this incredible life and these adventures that lance man has been on and you you know we know i know he knows that his brother didn't get those opportunities and that's something that we all need to think about you know all the guys that didn't come home and the fact that we get this opportunity to go and surf without a wetsuit and and go and become a lifeguard at 55 years old

and go and open up restaurants and move around the world. And like all those things are opportunities that we have because of people that made the sacrifice for us. So definitely something to think about. With that, thanks for listening to the podcast. Thanks for supporting, you know, we did feed Lance Mansom. He had some go.

He seemed fired up to it by too. He was a little surprised when he tastes It's like, oh, this is good. Yeah. If you notice, he didn't touch his water. No, he went all. He chose the go. He won't all go all the time.

Yeah. It's weird. You ever, or I'm sitting here listening to the whole deal. And then, you know how, I don't know, it's like this weird map. Maybe I'm alone on this. Maybe I'm not. But it's this weird map where it's like you kind of think, oh, yeah, when you're like in high school or whatever. It's like, that's a certain period of your life.

And it's like, you got your whole life ahead of you. Then you got your 20s. Okay. And then your 30s. You kind of hit your groove, 40s. And then once you hit like 50-ish, you kind of are like, okay, you're kind of almost like retirement. The destiny is already known. Yeah, exactly.

And you're kind of in retirement mode a little bit. You take your foot off the gas, you know. And then 60 is kind of like you're straight up retired. You're cruising. That's kind of the map you kind of have maybe subconsciously. And bro, he's like talking about like, oh, yeah, let me be a lifeguard and making it past the test. I'm like, bro, are you not realizing the map that we're all thinking about you? And then you think about it.

Oh, wait, he just had a different kind of attitude. where he was like, oh, no, we're still going right now. Like, it's not over. Like, we're still going or whatever. Then you kind of consider it, oh, wait, you can do that? Yeah. And if you do, it's kind of, I mean, this is just kind of deduction, really. But I'm thinking, man, if you have that attitude,

it's kind of like you can live like a whole other life in a way. Where he's like 82, bro, let's face it. If I even live to 82, bro, am I going to be like, what the hell? You know, it feels like I'd be, I've been done for like 20 years or anything. But him, he's just like mad that he's even smelling the dundness, even though he's not. I know with the coffee thing. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, you said it's not over, right?

You ever seen like the kid in the wrestling tournament or the kid in the basketball game or whatever and like they're kind of losing? Yeah, yeah. But there's one kid that he's not done yet. It's not over yet. Right. In his mind, it's not over. I'm not done with this. We're not done with this game.

And sometimes that kid can turn, spark, and come back and make things happen and get the, Victory. It's pretty wild. And so that attitude, if it's not, you know, when my daughter was wrestling, when she was in trying to make it through the state. And in order to make it through the state, you've got to win first, second, or third. And her first day, she lost a match. She won a couple.

She won quite a few matches, but she lost a match, which means the next day, she was going to have to win every single. single match, which is hard to do. This is now high level. This isn't playing around. You're trying to get to state championships in California, which is a big deal. And we're actually out in a place in the Imperial Valley of California called Brawley. And Brawley is a great athletic school and they have, because it's out in the middle of the

desert. These are tough, hardworking kids. Their athletic programs are super hardcore because they have nothing else to do. They live in Brawley, right? I got a friend that's from Brawley's in the teams and You know he's like you're in Brawley bro. That's what you're gonna do you're just like that's what you're gonna fight You're gonna wrestle you're gonna play football like that's what you're gonna do So my daughter she knows that you know that night

She's thinking she if she loses a one match she's not going to state there's her senior year right That night and she was under weight So she wasn't even close to like the high end of her weight bracket. She probably could she could have cut weight weight a few pounds and gone one waistcloth down but she didn't do that so anyways we like she loses she doesn't even talk to me on the way back to the hotel room she's just angry and and and not even not she wasn't really angry she was kind of like a little bit sad you know just it wasn't talking to me wasn't talking to anybody we get back to her I said you want somebody eating she says yeah I said what do you want she's like pizza hut so we order a bunch

of pizza hut whatever and you know she's still underweight but she goes out the next day and like I saw a little look in her face that was like it's not over yet this isn't over and she won her first match and you could see almost like a sort of vibe coming over and then she won her next match and she won her next match and then it wasn't her last match of the day but her toughest match of the day we're in brawley and she's wrestling against a girl from brawley and these girls scrap respect to brawley and they had a brawl then my daughter won and and but you know it's that attitude and then she ended up going to states but that attitude of it's not over yet yeah right

it's not over yeah and to have that attitude with life that's a little lesson learned for everybody today yeah a little lesson learned for everybody it's not over but I felt it yeah I felt like he was kind of going harder at 82 than I am right I kind of had that feeling. I'd say that's an accurate statement. Awesome. All right. If you want to support the podcast, you want to support yourself, you want to stay in good shape.

You want to get some Lance Mann, Jocko Fuel in your system. Go to joccofuel.com. Get yourself some energy drinks that are actually good for you. Stay in good shape, adding good health. Yes, good point. Keep you right in the game. Good point. Keep you right in the game across the board.

Get yourself some protein. Look, we can't afford to go to Chart House every night. to get right now yeah maybe when you're a E5 team guy like I was a E4 team guy going to chart house we go up there and get that prime rib boy so what is chart house it's a restaurant it's a nice restaurant oh restaurant is it like a club you didn't even know it was no it's a restaurant it's a straight up restaurant and there was one in Coronado that was all it's a different restaurant now but it was on it was it was like a boat house it was on the water it was like a dock basically real nice and it was one of

those things too when you're young like a young person's like a 20 20 year old kid, it's supposed to be going on the chart house because you don't have enough money for it unless you're in the teams and you're a young team guy. Then you're like up there ordering that $22 prime rib back in 91. Feel like you're kind of a boss, right? Kind of a boss like hey, I'm rolling in the chart house. You're like a business person, right? There's people in there with like shirts. Like real like whatever nice shirts and stuff, you know. So wait, so the chart house, what's the dynamic when you go in there? Is it like a military? No, no, no, no. It's just more higher

No, it's, well, it was created by team guys, right? So it's kind of chill. Like the waiters and waitresses would be wearing like Hawaiian shirts. But they're also charging, you know, like $29 for a piece of meat, right? So it's, well, and that's back then. So like today it would be the equivalent of like probably 40 bucks, you know, 50 bucks per per main course. Yeah, yeah. So, like a, if you're, if you don't have some money or whatever, that's going to be.

You're not just casually rolling out there. Unless you're a young guy in the teams, you have no expenses other than just what you're going to eat. You get after it. Did you guys, like, know that it was kind of like has the team guy roots? I knew it had team guy roots, but no one, you know, I always thought, well, maybe someone's going to be like, hey, are you guys in the shield teams? No one ever said that to me, you know? They just kind of, which is pretty obvious, we're in this freaking seal teams. We're in corner where like literally 500 meters from base.

Yeah, yeah. But I think maybe what's funny is I thought that the chart house I thought that I was at like the first chart house in 1990 He's like no it started in 1964 So I was way off based on that one. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's interesting too. He and he didn't go as deep into it His a Kama Aina experience in in Hawaii, but all those places it's weird because I kind of think where all the places he was talking about like I know those places or whatever But this is back in the day. So it's like different you know so it kind of has that contrast or whatever when he was like outrigger you know the outrigger but now bro

outriggers everywhere but the main one that's the one he was talking about yeah you're talking about that main one that you stay at by dukes yeah i've been to that one oh yeah it's kind of a hype scenario that's the hype they got a they got a bar like on the beach situation you know what i'm saying that's where i proposed my current wife by the way you know what we had a weird scenario with my wife the way things kind of finally got solidified but when i finally got her a ring, let's say. And we finally got her a ring. I asked her to come out for dinner.

We went out for dinner. Guess where we went to dinner? Chart house. Not even the one in Coronado. We went to the one that was down by the pier or whatever in San Diego. So it was sort of an extra level of hype. It wasn't just going to Coronado. I'm going to take you extra level of hype and I had that little.

So I told her to get dressed up and whatever. Like, you know, I put on like a shirt, you know, because back in the day it was hard to a shirt on. I understand. Like a t-shirt was kind of hard, but like putting on a collared shirt was sort of a big deal. Yeah, yeah. So she knew something was up. Some formal.

Yeah. Yep. Get yourself with JoccoFuel. JoccoFuel.com. Get some of the drinks from Wawa. Get some of it from the vitamin shop. That's going to help you out. Get yourself some clothes.

Get yourself some American-made clothes. Straight up. Straight up. Is there like a new factory gene or something or am I just seen? Factory gene is the same gene we've always. always had that's called the factory two types of genes factory gene delta 68 is lighter a little thinner factory heavy so if you're in michigan or you're in uh main and it's going to be winter time get yourself a set of factory jeans if you're in

socal or you're deploying to vietnam get yourself a bear delta 68's and all of it is made in America. All of it's made in America. And look, that's the way everything should be made. If you're an American, you should be buying something that's made in America. Why would you not do that? I'll tell you why, because you think, well, you know, I want to save $14. But when you save that $14, you're actually costing yourself infinitely more on the backside when your country is crumbling. And when you feel in your soul that you're enslaving human beings overseas. At the very least, keeping them at the very leaf keeping people enslaved overseas don't let that happen go to origin USA dot com get yourself some boots get yourself a ghee you know

a key a comfy gee no one even thought that geese were gonna be comfortable no that wasn't it was sort of you just had to accept that geese were uncomfortable yes that geese let's face it you're gonna put a gey on you're not happy I felt that way you're not happy putting on a ghee until now now you put on a gear kind of smile a little bit yeah right You kind of smile a little bit. When you put on an origin key, you kind of feel like, yeah, oh, that felt, yeah. A little smile.

You didn't think it was possible. You didn't think it was possible. It's more than possible. It's a reality. OriginUSA.com. Check some of that out. Also, other clothing, jaco clothing. Go to jocco store.com.

So, where you can represent. Discipline equals freedom. It's a big deal. Discipline equals freedom. That goes deep. I know you didn't know that when you made it up or whatever. But it goes deep. You know, shirt locker, even Laif Babin, you know, did not support the everyone

musket stone t-shirt. Yeah, so that one is very controversial, but it's not for everybody. I did not know that it was going to, I, to me, this is, this is why I know, this is why I don't trust myself. This is why I always question myself. This is why I always think, oh, you know, I might not have the best idea. So for those of you don't know, we made a T-shirt, it's based on, it's for the shirt-lockers, a subscription thing.

and you get a t-shirt every month. And we can be a little bit more, let's say, creative with the designs. We can take a little bit more risk. We can get a little bit wild. So this is an idea I had forever. I thought this was like the best-selling t-shirt of all time. Everyone's going to want this one.

Like we have to back-order it. Like a bunch of crazy stuff's going to happen. We're going to see him on, you know, the cover of fashion magazines throughout the world. So there's a story about Vietnam. Guy has a stoner rife. We used a weapon called the stoner, the stoner 63 in vietnam seals used it that we were famous for using it and what a guy I knew got went and picked up his weapon from the armory and someone else that had taken the weapon of Vietnam on an alternate tour had carved into the buttstock everybody must get stoned and I thought that oh that's so cool you know it's the 60s that's a song by bob Dylan I think everybody must get stoned so I thought hey dude of course we'll make a t-shirt

and people just didn't get it, man. And it's not even just, some people don't like it because there's a machine gun on it. Some people don't like it because it says get stoned on it. You put those two things together. The only people that are going to like it is like me and like one other person, I guess. Yeah, me. I like that. So anyways, you're going to roll the dice a little bit, I guess.

Apparently. We never ran into that. But hey, man. That's the only one that's kind of gotten the negative feedback. No, no, no. know there's always gonna be your odd guy like you know or person whatever who's like not liking something so hey man I dig it it's not for everybody we knew that going in you know but yeah sometimes I guess apparently sometimes these shirts go hard you know yeah

so if you feeling edgy oh if you want to support kind of just look like like give the support and you also want to take risks yeah because you're a risk taker you're kind of person that says you know what I'm in the game you know what's true you know what you're saying you're It's not over. I'm not done wearing cool t-shirts. It's not over yet. You can check out the shirt locker. Yep.

And that is on jaco store. Yep. Subscribe to the podcast. Don't forget about Jock Underground. We're putting a word out on Jocker underground, answering questions on that. Jockerground.com. If you want to check that out,

we got a YouTube channel, putting videos up. You can see what Lance Mann looks like. You can see what 82 should look like. If you're squared away, if you're P-Ting every day, day. So check that out with psychological warfare.

We got Flipside Canvas.com, Dakota Meyer. Got a bunch of books. Hey, I read, I kind of reread a section from Bywater Beneath the Walls. I guess that might be bad planning or whatever. But that section about the UDTs and the psychological, I just had to kind of go with it again. But that book is Ben Milligan by Water Beneath the Wall's freaking great book. You know, I've written a bunch of books too, including a novel called Final Spin. Check those out leadership books and whatnot.

Kids books, if you haven't gotten all the kids you know, all the kids books that I've written, you're not a good person. You're not. You're not a good person, right? You're not. You don't care about them. Yeah, it's hard to connect those dots.

You know, good person, no books. I understand fully. Wait, you're saying it's hard to connect those dots? Yeah, like if you consider yourself a good person, And meanwhile, you didn't do the book thing. Right. It's hard. Yeah.

You're a hard time convincing me that you're a good person. When you're like, oh, yeah, well, I know a bunch of kids, but I didn't get any of this life-changing book that's going to help them in every way and everything that they do in their life. No. When you look in the mirror, you should recognize you're a bad person. So don't do it. Get all these kids. Get them. Hand them out.

Hand them out. I can't hand all these books out myself. What am I going to do? Like walk around America handing out books? No. You got to do it. Get in the game. Buy them and give them to all these kids help out all these kids

There you go Eshalmafront.com if you need help with leadership inside your organization Don't forget about extreme ownership.com where we got online training and if you want to help Service members active and retire active and retired service members you want to help their families out you want to help out gold star families check out Markle's mom She's got a charity organization. It's at America's mighty warriors.org also check out heroes and horses.com where my offense got cool stuff going on letting people get back to themselves as far as the social media thing where the algorithm is hunting you look just because there's bad things out there in the world doesn't mean you need to like shy away from it but you got to be on your toes when you go in there all right so you go in there and check out icotcharles.com you check out

jococcaloWilic.com be on your toes watch out for the algorithm it'll get you and thanks once again thanks once again to Lance Mann for coming on and and thanks to Dan Mann his brother who who died on April 7th 1967 in service to our great nation we are grateful for your sacrifice and we will not forget

and on top of that thanks to all the UDT frogmen of the past who laid down the foundation of the organization that this generation has done our best to uphold and to the rest of the members past and present of the army Navy Air Force and Marines who also continue to hold up the warrior traditions of our great nation thank you for your service and thanks also for the work done by by our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all the first responders out there. Thanks for your service here on the home front to keep us safe.

And to everyone else out there, let's keep it in mind that it's not over. It's not over. You got one shot. You got one go at this gig. And I recommend that you be like Lance, man, and live it and live it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.