Jocko Podcast - 344: Modern Combatives. How We Fight, How We Train, How We Live. W/Dean Lister.

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Dean Lister and Jocko analyze Military combatives manual and evaluate.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko Podcast number 344 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Also joining us tonight, Dean Lister. Good evening. Good evening, Dean. Dean Lister from podcast 137. If you haven't heard that, go listen to it.

Dean is, uh, is it safe to say Dean is one of the greatest grapplers of all time? Is it, I have to ask Echo Charles. Is it safe to say that? It is safe to say that, yes. Like, Jiu-Jitsu World Champion. Is that accurate? Yeah. Abu Dhabi was some.

It's like the hardest tournament. Submission. I won it three times, super fight, absolute, and then my division. I don't know. Best,

it's always relative, you know. Well, we could at least, at a minimum, we could say he's a good grappler. Yes, sir? It's safe to say he's a good grappler.

I agree with that. A few good days. So, good evening, Dean, you know, you fought in a bunch of stuff, fought in the pride

over in Japan, fought in UFC, and I thought it would be cool to bring you on because we got some stuff to talk about, Speaking of the UFC, so the UFC kind of changed everything for martial arts. And really, I guess you go back to like Valet Tudor in Brazil and NHB in Brazil.

But that type of unrestricted fighting advanced martial arts in a decade or two, more than it had advanced, more than it had advanced. In a very long time, but you know, I was thinking about that. I was thinking about what you just said. And I actually think that's actually not true a little bit. And here's why. I think it actually brought it back to reality. Because if you went back to ancient Greece and looked at pancreation, right? Those guys in you, we have images of people doing pancreation.

And they're doing omopatas. And they're doing omoplas. They're doing heel hooks. They're doing what we do. And pancreation, if you don't know what it is, It was in the Olympics, and I'm talking to the old school Olympics. I'm talking 648 BC is when pancreation was introduced into the Olympics. And it was a combination of wrestling, boxing, kicking, joint locks, chokes.

It was, in other words, an ancient version of MMA. But over time, over time, things got separated. The disciplines got separated into boxing over here, wrestling over here, Muay Thai over here, Jiu-Jitsu over here, Judo over here, taekwondo over here, karate over here. And I was trying to think about why that happened. And I actually think I have a, I have a suspicion, we'll say, a hypothesis. My hypothesis is, you know how people generally only want to do what they're good at?

Like, oh, you're good at bench press? What are we doing for a workout today? We're doing bench press. Or oh, oh, you're good at squats? What do you want to do it? oh we're gonna do squats oh you're good at you're good at grappling other people so you know what I don't want you know I'm good at boxing I don't want Dean Lister grabbing hold of me and taking me to the ground and I don't something to make a different thing something that I'm good at and that starts to draw in all the people that are good at that thing yeah and over time it seems like you just have these separate things now whether that's the actual reason I don't know but everything got separated and martial arts became siloed right whereas just different sections

and then unfortunately martial arts became theoretical and it didn't take the much time for it to go from theory to lies and I know lies is a strong word But if you go look at what's the what's the Instagram? McDojo if you go look at McDojo those are lies that that that dude posts what's his name? McDojo life. McDojo life. So if you go to McDojo life, you can see people are teaching lies, actual lies to other people. And you know, the lies are things like, oh, this one strike.

Or my chi will prevent me from being. taken down or I can absorb your strikes with my aura Jaquiao. Do you think that's, you think it's a form of, I don't want to say, hypnosis, but like what is it you think? Like that kind of is it like, oh, everyone else is doing it

so I guess I'll do it, I'll play along or is it? Do they actually? There's absolutely some kind of psychological, there's a psychological phenomenon that occurs. Isn't he making a movie about this? Yeah. Yeah, like a good documentary, yeah. To explain, and I'm sure there's I'll be in that movie. That's awesome.

You and it too, Echo Charles? No. Okay. So, McDojo Life is making a movie about it, but yeah, there's some kind of psychological manipulation that happens where, oh, you point your finger at my sternum and I feel like pain and fall down. And the reason we know it's a lie is because plenty of people have challenged like, oh, try that on me. Mother Licker. So what's the story about you? You were at, I don't know about the sealed base, but you were there and something like, yeah, you know.

You put your finger in the collarbone And you're like, no And he's like, yeah, it works And he said, try it on me And you double-legged him or something No, well, I had a guy saying that Like they had a name for this like neck strike And they were like, oh, if this is done

Like if I did this for real You'd immediately be like paralyzed On the right side of your body And that would cause you to fall down And then that would lead to my next move Which is like, he'll stomp to the groin or whatever, right? And so I was like, cool, do it to me he's like no and the guy's like well no it's you know like and I was like do it to me just do it

and it didn't obviously it didn't work like a karate chop to the neck but didn't you take one second one and the third one he responded I heard that you were you know I don't even think I retaliated uh no Jeff Higgs had a guy that said that he couldn't be taken down once he settled his chi he could root into the ground yeah he would root into the ground and he the guy's like you would not be able to take me down and Higgs is you know, what do you mean? And Higgs, if you don't know who he has, he's been on the podcast, he's a black belt jiu-jitsu.

He's a former seal and a good friend of all of ours. But this guy was saying, oh, you can't take me down once I settle my chi. I always remember that's a good quote, right? Once I settle my chi because it sounds like it might be a legitimate thing, right? Like that's like, you just didn't make that up. That's, you've told that to other people. And so Jeff's like, okay, well, why don't you go ahead and settle that chi? Chi and the guy goes through his little ceremonial thing and like you know gets in the horse stance

And Higgs is like oh, you ready? He's like yeah and Jeff just like double legs and slaps him on the ground like my toes were crossed Yeah, yeah, yeah, she wasn't settled. So there is some when you get to that kind of McDojo stuff There's definitely some psychological weirdness that's going on But those lies were spread and you know whether it was you can't you can't strike through my aura or the dim mock which is hey if I touch you here you're going to literally die a few days later which also leads to the hey I can't actually do this to you because I don't want to kill you and go to jail for murder okay I would do it to you because you're making me mad but I don't want to go to jail for murder so I'm not going to do this you

know dim mock to you yeah and and furthermore you know what my the reason you don't see these moves in competition because they're not allowed jaco yeah times as a UFC fighter I had guys come to me and go, hey, you know, I saw your fight, you're a good fighter. You know, I'm a street fighter, Joe, you know. And I'm like, okay, but they had to, like, qualify that for some reason to me. I'm like, well, you know, okay, that's cool. You know, it's just kind of funny that someone thinks that maybe I've never been in a real-life altercation outside. You know, also, like, like, I've had my, that's why I look special, my face.

I've been bit, I've been, I've been poked and whatever, and they also you can imagine. But it's like, yeah, those things, I would call them targets of opportunity or fighting dirty but you can't replicate the eye couch over and over or you're gonna have everyone's got one eye you know so so I don't know I just think it's funny that that people think that despite all your training if it's a street fight like you have no chance yeah if you could do an experiment where you took someone and just train them in jiu jiu jitsu and they never gotten a street fight and you went they went against someone that was a court street fighter in the street it's like it doesn't matter yeah um yeah

Yeah, so the training will transfer now. Look, could you pick up some bad habits where you do something in the street that take, now it takes you an extra two seconds to win because you should have done this specific thing because yeah, you could do that. But that's like the tiniest percentage. If there's someone that's like, that's why I don't train, you know, because I'm ready for the street. But going back to the storyline. a little bit this these lies which still exists today in the 70s and 80s these lies were just kind of like out of control yeah and they definitely got picked up in the military I was looking through some old army I looked through an old army hand-to-hand manual from 1982 so this is like in the heyday of chi and it said this in this manual no judo you have probably already asked yourself what about throwing

and takedowns like in judo. We have purposely excluded throws and taked take downs because throws and takedowns are normally only an intermediate step to taking your opponent out. After your opponent is thrown to the ground, you will probably still have to strike him to finish him. So let's just block his attack and finish him with counter strikes

instead of blocking, throwing, then striking. It's like, that actually makes you think, well, you know, it's a good point. No, you know, that's a good point. You know, I'm not going to, I don't want to have to take someone down. I'll just take them out. This thing goes on to say that throwing puts you in a vulnerable position. To throw your opponent, you must first grab him.

This puts you close to your opponent and vulnerable to his attack. Certain throws, yeah, certain throws. Oh, for sure. Well, theoretically, again, that's the problem with this stuff, is theoretically, especially if I say, listen, Dean, if I, you know, double-knuckle punch your sternum, it's going to cause you to have a cardiac arrest. So why am I going to bother throwing you When I can just give you a literal heart attack?

And if you said well, why don't you show me that? I'd be like because I don't want to kill you bro You just have to but trust me So actually what's interesting is in that book that that field manual is looking at You know, I'm looking at the rest of it and it has all these like Their foot patterns and it looks like these dance moves to like avoid and like strengthen your power and And it's just a bunch of nonsense, to be honest with you. But like I just said, if this stuff is getting taught by some authoritarian figure and you can't really test it in any way,

and, you know, this is someone that's, you know, a 38-year-old who's talking to an 18-year-old recruit that kind of wants to believe, by the way. Because most people are like, oh, you're giving me a special power. I'm going to take it. I'm not going to question you. And that's probably what leads to some of the weird McDojo life type scenarios. So this, to me, this is like the low point of martial arts in history, in my opinion. This is the 1970s, the 1980s.

And look, I get it. Some guys were doing the best they could with what was available and good on them. I know some of those guys. Remember Dr. Mick? Dr. Mick was one of those guys. And he had a whole crew of guys. Like in the 70s, they did everything they could to the extent that they were. they could do it and there was also some guys that were awesome back then judo gene

LaBelle like no one can question the effectiveness and the efficiency and the awesomeness of judo Jean LaBelle 50 60 70s but as a whole if you look at commercially that time period was pretty rough for martial arts and then the UFC came and the UFC brought the truth and And with that, everything changed for the better. I'm taking notes, by the way. This is good stuff. Everything changed for the better.

What's your notes? Do you have any so far? Well, I wrote a few things down. I just think we'll get into this, but it's an old saying, and I'll butcher it probably, but, oh, there we go. Something like hard work achieved without payment or without sacrifice is something you shouldn't trust. So the quick way to get this quick knockout without learning how to box Or the quick way to get the flying submission or the steam sago neck break Without learning a grapple, you know

It seems good but it doesn't work you know Trying to get in shape without without working out you know You know if you just get like implants and your biceps like you service Bicea implants yeah those arms like work exactly yeah I'm sorry I won't say on the internet It's private But, you know, these kind of things are shortcuts.

You know, become a millionaire tomorrow without even have a business plan. You know, I'm just saying that's an interesting idea. So it sounds good. And I think if someone trained a lot in boxing, kickboxing and wrestling, you know, you could do that stuff. Yeah. If you're training all these disciplines. I think it's interesting. That is something that I think it's imperative to get into.

I ask you this, Jocko. It relates to what we're talking about right now. I had a Zoom call with like 12 Marine officers. They called me. It was a colonel. They called me. They were always, I don't know, captains and lieutenants. And they were talking about, you know, because they had fought.

I guess they saw me compete in Brazil talking about my training patterns and whatever. And they were saying how I could relate to the military. And I said, well, and this is something I know. I'm stepping out a little out of my realm. But I mentioned something, you know, simulation training. Of course, you talk about that. And that's not combat. But that's closer to combat.

than bang, bang, bang, you know, and I know the argument. They don't go through walls and not as realistic, but you get a sting, you got a hit. And they were like, no, there's,

yeah, that's closer to a gun battle than laser tag or something like that. What's the old system that would beat? Yeah, there's an old system called Miles Gear which is a laser tag system

and they have more advanced laser systems which are actually really good now. And yes, those are great training tools. And sure, are there some little things about using those systems that are not accurate, yes, but just as you said, it's closer.

So if you're getting ready for, I don't know, even a life in that situation, I would rather trust the person who has trained 10 years in a struggle where they've dealt with adversity. They've been in panic situations and been calm versus someone who, I don't know, let's say is open to more dirty things, but has never practiced it in real life. Then again, if someone has actually been through life with that situation and used it, that's good, I guess. but I think it's important to find that training medium.

So gloves, in effect, I guess I should wear more gloves when I trained. But, you know, if you don't wear gloves, your hands get stronger, but you can also hurt your hands. So gloves have a place, but then again, you can't rely upon big gloves and boxing. You have small, you have no gloves, you know, you can't cover up the same. So I think it's important to find the happy balance, that medium, between hard training and realism. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what the UFC did, and really Jiu-Jitsu is a huge part of this, is you can train full speed, right? You can go hard. And look, you can spar in boxing and you can, in wrestling, you're going live against other people. But when you take that and put it together into a martial art, Jiu-Jitsu was like bringing that forward. And boxing did it, wrestling did it, Jiu-Jitsu does it. Moitai does it. But who didn't do it was like DeMock.

And the old kind of way. weird traditional martial arts that didn't actually do anything except for a theory except for theory so as as the UFC happened we started to see this in the military and people in the military started learning and testing and started to move the military combatives to a much better place and one of the leaders in this is a guy named Matt Larson I don't actually know him but everybody kind of knows him. He's a former Marine, former Army Ranger, and he's, I think he's pretty much known as the father of modern Army combatives.

He's the one that started to train and formalize and kind of push this well-rounded approach, realistic approach to hand-to-hand combat. And eventually his work, and look, I'm giving one person all the credit right now. I'm sure he would talk about all the people. that helped him get there but this is the person that I know of that was involved and I'm like I said I'm sure there's many more people but he certainly was a spearhead on this and his work and whoever he was working with at the time eventually

became an army field manual an army field manual three tech 25.150 combatives and I thought today maybe we could take a look at this manual go through some of the highlights discuss how it can be applied and not only can it be applied to how we fight of course but also how we train and how we live so there you go let's take a look at this manual combatives picture of a dude with a freaking k bar on the cover got to love that here's the overview the overview to kick this thing off it says combatives training stands apart from the vast majority of martial arts training in that producing the individual's actual fighting ability is of primary concern.

The mental and physical benefits of training gain their worth from usefulness in producing more capable soldiers. Now, I'm not 100% sure I agree with that opening statement. Only because it says, you know, combatives training, the main thing about combatives training is that you're trying to improve the fighting ability of the person. Doesn't all jiu-jitsu and boxing and Muay try to make you better? fighter I'm not I must be misreading that or something but that's what we're trying to do is make someone a better fighter I guess I'll go with it purpose

combatives the art of hand-to-hand combat bridges the gap between physical training and tactics the products of a good physical training plan strength endurance and flexibility must be directed toward the mission and soldiers must be prepared to use different levels of force in an environment where the intensity of a conflict changes quickly many military operations such as peacekeeping missions or non-combatant evacuation may restrict the use of lethal force. Combatives training prepares the soldier to use the appropriate amount of force for any situation.

Okay. So that's always good. And you know, sometimes people will ask me, have you ever used hand-to-hand? And they actually think my answer is going to be no. And they think that most people would never use hand-to-hand, but it actually is very common to use combative techniques in combat. Why? Because you're dealing with civilians,

you're dealing with unarmed people, and you can't just run around shooting everybody in a semi-permissive environment or even in a wartime environment. You see someone that's not armed or you enter a building. There's a male, a female, a kid that doesn't have a weapon. You have to contend with them.

So combatives are very important to have as a situation. skill set to handle you know actually when the person when the enemy has a gun that makes everything easier you kill them you shoot them done deal no factor would you write down Dean a couple things about the origin of martial arts and how how some things have shaped regionally right just a little before but um also I wasn't mentioned one detail I saw someone from one military service of one country I want to don't get too specific but I saw the person teaching uh he has had his not right here on his head like he's a boxer with big gloves.

If you do that with no gloves, your own hand will cut your face. Yep. So things like that, they're teaching the recruits. I'm talking there's like 200 people in the class. It was one of our services. I won't say which one and teaching people to hold it like this. And I'm saying, well, even in boxing I wouldn't do that, but with big gloves, it makes sure you can see over.

That right there is someone who actually has never been punched the face with, without gloves on. Teaching that to 200 people at a time, I'm like, I didn't correct them. Yeah. I would, I think, but you know, he's actually, he's having them right. having them right this I'm like you know at least want to be here or maybe it's just interesting that that person teaching people how to punch with no gloves on probably is every punch in the face yeah and he may be a skilled

boxer yeah absolutely yeah probably he's probably may have been punched in the head you know while he had his while he had his cover up and you can realize you can absorb you've got their big glove versus going into your big glove and it absorbs you take those big gloves off the punch right through that person's hands So that is a little bit. We're looking at a sport, boxing, which is great. I love boxing. But if you do not alter that part, by the way, not every box does this.

I'm saying this person, some boxes in the corner, you cover it like this. If you don't alter that rule, that would actually cause you to get a lot of damage in a fight. Because this also, you don't cover much of your face with these little hands, the same, but without gloves. So that's the example. I was trying to say how we're looking for the happy medium because we're doing with the military, not boxing and not wrestling. It's actually a military application. Yeah. It goes on to say here, combatives training includes arduous physical training that is mentally demanding and carries over to other military pursuits.

This training produces soldiers who understand controlled aggression and remain focused while under duress. That's awesome. That's true. Right. So when you get good at fighting, it's going to help you stay calm in other situations. That's an awesome aspect of training. You process the skills requisite to the mission. at levels in all the

spectrum, in all the levels of spectrum of force. So you're going to learn how to control different scenarios. Have attributes that make up the warrior ethos, personal courage, self-confidence, self-discipline, and a spree decor. That's huge. It's so good for

people to know how to fight. It's just so good for people to know how to fight. You actually, when you know how to fight, you become less arrogant. Yeah. You might be, you might, if you're 20 years old, You might have a spike in your arrogance, right? Echo Charles, you're smiling at that one.

Yeah, there are exceptions. We'll just say that. Yeah, where you get a little spike in your arrogance, but over time, you'll realize, okay, the reason I'm good is because I trained more and guess what there's someone that's trained more than me and that's the way it is. So generally speaking, it'll help your self-confidence

while at the same time preventing you from becoming arrogant. Yeah, you get beat up so much. You have to be calm, you know. I mean, it's humbling, man. Yeah. It's humbling. You remember the first time you tapped me out a hundred times in the gym when I first showed up.

I was a young seal rolling in there thinking I knew how to fight, didn't know Jack. Jock would when he would tap, he would just stop. No expression on the face. Let's train again. So it's humbling, especially what were you, 17 or 18 when we started training? 19 years old. You were 170 pounds. And I was like 220.

I was a grown man. You were a kid. And I'm like, you know, this poor guy, I'm going to smash his little head. Throughout modern history, attempts to build successful combative systems have failed or have been met with limited success. This has happened for several reasons. Quite naturally, commanders desire a system that doesn't require any training time to learn and maintain. So that's a real problem out of the gate. People think, well, you know, I saw a thing.

where you can just learn four deadly moves and you'll be good to go. Why don't we just use that, bro? So I'm talking about, exactly. Four deadly moves to end any street fight. The commander's like, hey, I think we should just learn. I saw those four deadly moves.

Why don't we just focus on those? That way you don't have to spend a bunch of time. There's a guy he actually has, it's like a tagged in YouTube. So it's like, ex-army ranger. Plus 10 years of bouncing experience has won over 500 bar fights,

never been hit in the face once. By his system, I'm just like, I'm not going to check it out. Just win every fight into three, four seconds, just whatever. Now, there's ways to surprise people. There's ways to look over there and hit someone. There's ways to have your friend.

I mean, there's all kinds of tricks to trick you and trick someone out in public. But I don't know. It's just funny how this get strong, quick, with no sacrifice game, get rich quick. That's what I said earlier. I don't know. It's kind of like not the future. Yep.

Yep. It's going to take some time. Continue on. Further training has often been conducted by, experts in civilian martial arts. These experts use training methodologies that are designed for more civilian hobbyists than realities of war.

That's exactly what you were just talking about with the boxing gloves, right? Oh, I'm a great box, I'll teach you out a box, cool. But I'm not wearing gloves, now I'm breaking my hand, now I'm getting punched in the face when I thought I was covered up. It's like, there's the issues. Often, combatives training has been approached

by allowing a soldier versed in a civilian martial art to use a limited amount of training time, usually during another course, to teach a useful technique. Blinded by their civilian training the trainer demonstrates what the trainer thinks are simple effective and easy to learn techniques Selected by based on situations Soldiers may find themselves or in a tactical niche of the specialist training the trainer teaches the soldiers these techniques But due to the limited amount of training time the soldier quickly forgets them the soldiers quickly forget them to overcome these tendencies a combatants

Training system must be based on certain principles and then maintained So this was another thing I ran into that in the seal teams like for a while the seal teams was using this system where one of the one of the best benefits of the system claimed by the people that were pushing the system was, hey, this system that we're being taught only takes five days to learn. And meanwhile, some people are talking about becoming, you know, using more mixed martial arts-based systems when those things take years to become an expert. Why would we do that? You know, it's sort of like seven-minute abs, right?

You're like, hey, dude, I'm not, why do all this cardio weightlifting? and diet and all this stuff, I can just do seven minute abs and I'll be good to go with the abs. Six minute abs. Six minute abs. I'll sell you. Oh, yeah, you outsell me. So don't fall for that, that idea that, oh, the reason you should use my system is because it's faster.

Yeah. It's not a good, it's not real because you're not going to become a good fighter in five days. Could you learn a couple fundamental moves in five days? Yes, you absolutely could. You absolutely can, and they could save your life. Yeah. You know, you could, you could, your life could be saved by knowing some fundamental moves that you learn in a five-day period. But are you going to be well-versed?

No. Are you going to forget those moves? Yes. Are you going to know how to react when there's a variable involved? No. So there is no easy, quick solution to be good at fighting. It doesn't exist. Could you learn, you know, three years?

dynamic moves that if you're a bouncer in a bar and you're going against some drunk guy that doesn't expect it and you do these moves that probably work a lot what happens when that dude drops in and does a double leg on you you know or squares up and it's like a skilled fighter it's going to be a problem so here's the here's the principles that they recommend this systematic training foundation continuous training competition drills live training integrated training combat feedback cool what you're right dude no it's why i was going to say like kind of funny story. Like we're talking about weight loss.

So, you know, let's say when I go through my weight cutting phase, you know, I'll lose like 15 pounds in, I don't know, 10 days. And then I'll cut water weight, which is really unhealthy, but it's really, really bad for you to do that. But, you know, cut 33 pounds and, you know, 12 days, whatever, you were there with me on that. But so people go, how do you lose that much weight in two weeks? I'm like, well, it's not sustainable.

You know, I'd be honest. It's not the secret. You could do that, but it's a miserable life. It's hard to do. And you can't do it forever. And remember, when he tried to cut 50 pounds in a week?

And he had the look of death in his eye. So, he lost like 25 pounds, right? Yeah. Because Brian Sarge is a good friend of ours, ex seal, but he actually, I think,

was trying to lose 40 pounds or something like that. Yeah, he went, and look, Sarge is about as hard as they come. As far as, like, just being like, I'm going to finish this thing,

whatever it is, he's up there in the top echelon of I'm not going to. give up on this thing and it's almost walking dead almost walking dead I mean and I remember I showed up at the gym and I saw him and he already he was like he was on he know he was done yeah he was like he was like yeah he was like he was like yeah he was like I was going to die soon he's like I was his assessment he was like he was like yeah he goes I got down I got 38 pounds and whatever and he goes and then I got to a point where I was going to

die soon. And he's a, he's a Corman, he's a medic, he's a independent duty Corman, which is like the highest level of, and you know, a special operation, Coleman. He's little surgeries. Yeah, so he's just like, he's like, yeah, I was going to die soon. That was his assessment. So I was trying to tie the story about what our bro is, but it's just funny

in a sadistic way, but even Sarge would laugh at it too. He has a good sense of humor, our type of humor. But so there is a way to lose weight that fast, but it's not sustainable, it's not healthy, plus you have to know what you're doing, and then you have to know when to do it correctly. And then you cause a good trouble. So So weight loss.

How about quick way to lose weight? Yes, it's possible, but it sucks. It's miserable. It's not sustainable. But you can actually get on a sensible diet, get in a consistent workout routine. And you know what? You could lose, say, two pounds a week. You can do that consistently.

You know, you can't. And actually have energy. You'll be fine. You'll be hungry, but you'll be fine. But it takes discipline, right? Discipline. So I'm talking to this, learn it. I see what they're saying.

It sounds marketable. But as I was mentioning earlier, the quick fix way to get around things in training is usually not the best way. No. You're going to have to put in the time, people. Yeah. And this is exactly what they say here. This next section is called systematic training.

Learning to fight is a process, not an event. To be effective, combatives training must be part of a system. Until soldiers learn techniques that form the system's foundation, they are unprepared for follow-on training. Shortcuts are teaching soldiers what they need to know is counterproductive. Much as advanced tactical training is counterproductive if a soldier's soldier has not first been taught how to operate his weapon. Army combatives training must be based in a system that both lays a foundation of abilities

that soldiers take with them wherever they are assigned and is flexible enough to fit the wide range of specialized missions soldiers are asked to do. So it's the same thing that we're talking about. Continuous training. Combatives training must not end upon graduation from a training course. And this is, by the way, everything we're saying applies to police officers as well. Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of cops, they don't have any more training after they got out of the academy.

No, it's horrible. Or they get three hours a year or four hours a year. Yeah. So training has to be continuous. It can't end when you graduate. For soldiers to develop their abilities, the majority of training must happen outside of the institutional training environment. So that's a thing about that. The majority of training has to be outside what you learn in the schoolhouse.

Units must develop their own combatives programs to spur troops to involvement, encourage commanders, to invest resources. So there you go. Competition. Competition is the principal, motivational tool used to spur combatives training. Competition should be not only used to encourage excellence by giving soldiers a chance to be unit champions,

but also to make fighting ability an integral part of soldiering. So if you're not running some competitions, you're not going to get people to train. And look, can you get someone that's like, hey, I'm just dedicated and no I might need it on the job? Sure. But how many of those 20-year-olds that were talking about? about is gonna be like dude are you gonna do the are you gonna do the brigade

competition so you's got it see where you're at and by the way what about you're doing the brigade composition so you might want to like train so you're at least ready for you so don't look like a jagass talks about drills you know you got to do drills live training live training involves training against a fully resistant training partner that approach is the reality of combat this is what you were talking about earlier Dean there are many methods of live training each has its own strength or weaknesses therefore leadership combined several approaches to ensure proper training integrated training combative engagements do not

happen in a vacuum they happen as part of a mission so give soldiers the tools they need to successfully complete their missions combatives must be an integral part of the training so that means you can't just make it an isolated okay like you know what a red man suit is red man suit is like the guy you can punch because they're wearing like a big padded outfit yeah yeah well you need to integrate that into a random part of a regular mission, a regular training mission. You can't say, oh, today we're doing combatives only. No, you need to walk into a room

and there's got to be some person in Red Man suit just ready to throw down, and you've got to deal with it. And you've got to see how it affects everyone else in the room and how many people it takes and how it slows down the assault force and all that stuff. That's integrated training.

Combat. What did you write down, Dean? Just different things. I was just, I had random stories. I was going to say, remember this, even people listen. There's, you know, yeah, yeah, but the pretty lie is more appealing than the ugly truth. You know, so the ugly truth is, it's not really ugly if you get into it.

You get into the sport is not so ugly. Or maybe that is the beauty of it in a way. But the pretty lie is always still appealing. I have a 40, I have a 40 course for you, you know. You're guaranteed to win every fight. That's still appealing to most people. Still is, even though we're seeing this. And I just hope that people listening to this is not, well, it is, it can be torturous.

It's something that lights a fire under your ass, your butt every day as far as you want to train more. I can get sick of Jiu-Soo for one day and next day I'm fine. I'm back into it for some reason. You can say give it like, man, and the next day you're like, okay, I'm back to it. You can definitely have a rough day on the mess. Yeah, yeah, it's true.

It's true. It's just that we talk about work, repetition, drills, competition, all this stuff. It seems like a lot to do. It is a lot to do. But, I mean, this is the ugly truth. You know what I'm saying? So that's just why I was writing down,

just that the pretty lie is still appealing to people that are listening to this right now, the pretty lie is still out there, is still something that people are going to be tempted by. Yeah. And the pretty lie you want, you want it to be true. It's true. You want it to be true. That's how get rich quick schemes work, right? Yeah.

People want to believe that a mere $1,299 investment now, when you learn these skills. It's true. Chaco, I wanted to believe that you could lose 18 pounds of water by being in an in an Epsom salt term.

and half hour. I wanted to believe that. It was not true. No, quarter pound. Have you ever missed weight? No, no, I was made weight. Yeah, I was made weight.

Man, you suffered a few times. Yeah, I have big bones. I don't know. It's not fun. Big bones and pizza, bro. Dude, a couple of times, it was like, all right, let's check your weight. Oh, you're 28 pounds over,

and you've got a fight in six days. Kenny pizza for How's that pizza tasting? I hope it was good Now you get it big Combat feedback When soldiers are engaged in hand-to-hand combat They acquire new information about combatives

These lessons must be captured and analyzed So the combatives program evolves To fit the needs of soldiers Through combat feedback The following lessons have been learned And it goes through Every fight is a grappling fight Of course this does not mean

that there is no striking Every fight also involves striking, but always as an integral part of grappling. Every fight is over weapons. Control of this element will most likely determine the outcome of the fight. There's no shortcut to developing fighting skill. The combat feedback thing, this is something like even when I was trying to move naval special warfare more towards a mixed martial arts view. and some people would be like, you think, you know, you just think it should be jih Tijuana?

And I'd be like, no, actually, I don't just think it should be jih Tzu at all. And in fact, and this was the most important thing I tried to say was it shouldn't be closed. It shouldn't be a closed, it shouldn't even be a, quote, system. It should be an open learning, continuous learning, evolving thing that we're always getting better at. And that way there's things that work and they work now. And maybe if in the future we have a different thing. type of body armor that is more dynamic or it takes up more space or it's heavier or lighter or whatever like things are going to change or the way you sling your weapon now or a different

radio you got to carry a go that causes something or a helmet like there's all kinds of things you got to make adjustments to you grapple with plates on body armor plates oh yeah because the plates get really they get really in the way let's say yeah and there's certain things that yeah there's certain things that might not be optimum with plates yeah and so okay well what adjustments are you going to make and maybe a new set of body armor comes out. Like you could put something called side-zappy plates in with now you have plates on your side. And how does that inhibit your movement? You're finding this ridiculous jocco with the front plate and the back plate.

And it's a belt on with, you know, whatever. I'll say, just stuff on the belt. And I set up and guard and I had a little, I was a little heavier back then. And the front plate pinched my, with the belt. And you tapped out. Come on, I can't set him a guard the same way with it. So there's, you got to watch out for that belly fat tap out. You gotta lose the weight.

No, that's no problem now. We gotta stay lead. So that's, that's good. The idea that whatever you're training in should evolve. And look, it's beautiful to see right now, Jiu Jit's evolving like crazy. And it's kind of evolving exponentially. I think Jiu Jitsu is evolving exponentially now. Because every one move leads, let's just say,

theoretically every one move leads to two moves. Would you say that's something you could say, you could claim? It should, yeah. Maybe even one move. It could be that one move leads to four moves. And some one moves lead to seven moves. But let's just say, in general, conservatively, every one move leads to two moves.

Sure. So there's been so many new moves created in the last 10 years, and they've all created and spawned more moves and more moves and more moves. So it's a highly evolving sport. Yeah, absolutely. And some things have been forgotten or reinvented again for sure. Someone's done a lot of things before. Some things have been forgotten.

Some things are out of style. But some things are definitely being invented right now. All right. This is a really thorough manual, and this is what the Army does, man. The Army doesn't play around. They leave no room for interpretation and stuff. They got things on safety. They got the things on risk.

assessments on how you're going to keep everybody safe while you're doing it. One thing they say is combatives training has inherent risks. These risks may not be readily apparent and are sometimes counterintuitive to the untrained person. Therefore, a compatives instructor certified at the appropriate level should be involved in the process to mitigate these risks. And it's also important as a trainer to be able to point out the risks of not training. Like if you don't train, because listen, if you train, you can spray your ankle. Yeah.

If you train, you can hurt your shirt. shoulder but if you don't train what's the risk there the risk is you course yeah it's it's gonna end up being worse so they go through you know how to set up a training area what what's general safety precautions to to make and then they got this thing this is interesting according to a report published by the armed forces health surveillance center 730 individuals who served in an active or reserve component in the army navy air force or marine corps were hospitalized or medically evacuated for injuries incurred while performing wrestling, judo, and unarmed combat training between January 2002 and December 2009.

This averages to roughly 100 personnel per year during an eight-year period. Now, quite frankly, that's not that bad, I don't think. I think that's actually pretty darn good to go, considering how many people are actually training. It says it should be noted that 194 personnel, 40% of those hospitalized and 26.6% of all injuries were injured while off duty or have unknown duty status. Unsupervised execution of combatives techniques is strongly discouraged. This also means some of that percentage is I got a bar fight. And I went to my gunny sergeant and said, hey, gunny, I was training combatives and I broke my hand on my training partner's face. Well, how's your, oh, you know, how's your buddy?

Oh, he's okay. Okay. But, you know, I need to get my a cast. So there's some of that going on. Areas of the body most commonly injured. Of the injuries documented in the study, a large percentage, a 45.6% occurred in the lower extremities. In fact, fractures primarily of the ankle, tibia, or fibula, accounted for nearly one half of the injuries.

That seemed high to me. And you know what it shows you? They're doing a lot of takedowns. Yeah. They're doing a lot of take downs. But isn't it weird also? Fractures. They're talking about fractures.

And so fractures percentage was 50%. Sprains and strains was only 13%. And what I thought to myself is that's because you know what? You don't have to go to the hospital for a sprain or a strain, so you're not reporting it. I mean, how many times have you hurt your ankle or your knee training? A few times, kickboxing. A few times. And not gone to the hospital.

Many times. I mean, it's like ridiculous, right? How many times did I go home? Like, oh, I'm kind of limping a little bit. You know, my shoulders tweaked. My elbow got straightened out. Dean Lister. Whatever.

So I think a lot of the strength. I think spraints and strains is actually, you're going to get them. It's like almost 100%. Yeah. But people just kind of like, oh, just put ice on it and call it good. Well, you think maybe that these lower extremities injuries is from like kicking? Well, I don't know. My goodness.

I think it's take downs Straight up fractures I mean I guess Also you know how maybe they'll turn the wrong way You know a good wrestle with hips I'm saying like when someone's learning You're going through those rough areas Were more likely to you're hurt

Yeah yeah Yeah actually if you think about how many broken bones Have you seen on the mats during training Not many Yeah no it's usually I think I've seen two I think I've seen two One like ankle and one

what's radial. Yeah, I got caught and my buddy got caught in a bicep slicer and I heard it crack spiral fracture and he was in the day

still went on deployment but yeah that's why it's weird but how many people how many times have you seen somebody get a sprained ankle a sprained knee

it's like you can't count them all so this is a weird thing this a weird thing and then it goes on to dislocations and skull or bone fractures and other intercranial injuries, other injuries,

concussions, concussions they've only got at 3%. Chaco, how many people get hurt on the obstacle course? You know what I'm saying? On the obstacle course, probably not a ton,

but how many people get hurt going through land warfare training out in the desert? You know, in every... Any kind of training. Yeah, people are going to get hurt. Like what in land warfare training? Like what?

Twisted ankle, running, hurt knee. He's usually an ankle and you're a back. right picking up my buddy kind of especially when some people were running man warfare and there was a lot of buddy caring can be done sorry fellas

just trying to be ready for war but yeah people are going to get injured here's another one like fast roping or parachuting like people break their ankle people land wrong people get hurt so yeah you're doing high risk training people are going to get hurt traumatic brain injury

the armed forces health surveillance center study concluded that a relatively small 15.5% of combatives related injuries occur in the head, back, neck, and nervous system. Dude, I don't think 15% is a small number. I don't like that number. However, these injuries can have disastrous consequences, which can include traumatic brain injuries. That's why you got to spar. You can't spar every day, you know, boxing every day.

Oh, yeah. And for sure. That's something that we've learned, and you and I had did not learn until it was too late, because we already probably sparred hundreds of rounds back in the day, live. With MMA gloves by the way, which is not smart You can see better, you know I mean Yeah, I mean that's kind of disturbing

Yeah, you know, when you think about all the rounds you did Back in the day while training for camp Is a lot of you getting punched in the head Do you spark with MMA gloves just striking or is it a full? Both usual takedowns But you know you put Vaseline on and Or you put a, you wear headgear and small gloves or big gloves and no head gear.

Yeah, it depends. But that's, you know, we kind of evolved. Yeah. And now it's evolved like guys spar, a lot less. A lot less. Wasn't it back in the, back when you were going through seal training, they put the boats on your head and jump on the boats and stuff like that? But now they don't do that.

They don't do that anymore. Yeah, but see, you learned from the past because everyone has bad necks, Higgs, you, pause, everyone. Sarge. Yeah. Yeah, that wasn't healthy. That was not healthy. You got a boat on your head and the freaking 220-pound instructor jumps into the boat.

And it's not like that moment of impact. The weight is distributed evenly amongst the six or seven heads in there. No, he lands wherever he lands. And it takes at least, you know, yeah, that was not good. And it feels like there's no real benefit in that kind of quote-unquote training. There's, there is no benefit. It's only a negative. It's kind of like getting punched in the head.

Yeah, yeah. There's very, now listen, you have to get punched a little bit. Yeah. So that you are used to and you're not scared of it, but you don't get better at getting punched in the head. That's why we don't line people on walls and just start going ham on their face. He's those videos who guys line up on the wall and start just punching. Yeah.

That's just freaking. Different tactics. That's not just different tactics. That's like freaking jerks. Traumatic brain injury occurs when a sudden trauma. or head injury disrupts the function of the brain initiating the onset or worsening of the falling symptoms loss of or decreased level of consciousness loss of memory for events immediately after altercation alteration and mental state confusion disorientation neurological deficits weakness loss of balance change in vision so so you get a lot of these things if you're sparring all the time and you shouldn't so don't And it goes on to some more of this danger Should a soldier exhibit any of the symptoms of traumatic brain injury?

Soldiers should ask should seek immediate emergency evaluation This is how I mean remember when I got a really bad concussion from you That's it. You felt like I don't know three or four Yeah but there was the worst one where I went actually had to go to the hospital Oh yeah I don't call that yeah and I remember the doctor said hey you know you no contact for I think she said six months What happened? Which one was that? Did your head on my ear or something? No.

Oh, my shot? Yeah, it was a head. It was your head hitting my head. Your chin, my head of your chin. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And it, it didn't knock me out, knock me down.

And then I remember I was looking up at the roof and like I saw that the war like the road. I was like, why is Dean rotating me right now? Because I feel like it. That's why. I was like, why is Dean? Because he was a cross side and like, I'm looking up with the rafters in city boxing. Remember the city boxing at those big rafters? And I'm looking at them and they're turning and I'm like I'm trying to put my feet to stop you from turning me

But it wasn't turning I was turning you by yeah no you weren't and Then I woke up in the middle of night was throwing up and dizzy and couldn't work to the bathroom and So I went to the hospital because a boxer had just died that's right yeah a boxer had just died and I was like bro I'm I messed up and one of my team guy friends came and drove me the hospital because I couldn't like I was done And but here's the Here's done Now here's dumb She's like no contact for six months

And I was like cool Four weeks later I was like I think I'm good to go Yeah I was we were training again Like doing that so Don't be stupid Did you get amnesia or anything like that? No

No I didn't I got a concussion from football I think I told you this where I got amnesia Straight up woke up like Not well I was conscious but I woke up You know you come to the amnesia or whatever, just confused. Same deal, no contact.

But they were like, well, that's your first concussion? The next week, I played a game. The first hit, I took another amnesia scenario. I was like, I don't know where I am or whatever. That's why they have concussion protocol now and all this stuff. They didn't used to have that back in the day when you were over there at Kauai Hai. Yeah.

I had probably about 10 serious ones, but one of them, after Japan, when I fought a Rona, I went to Spain, like, right towards. And I was like a 12-year-old kid. I had the mental capacity of about a 12-year-old kid. I was just like, hey, Dean, I would just, I was very, I don't know, for about two weeks. Yeah. Did you felt out of it or was it just? You know, I'm going to fall down, catch myself.

Sometimes I was twice a week and then went down, even like six months later, I got like one or two of those. Like, well, I got to sit down. But not for a long time. You're just like playing Legos and stuff? Collaring. Damn it, chocolate will come by. That's good time. Well time.

But right, if they're like, hey, how long, six months or whatever? Because, yeah, you feel better. Because even the next week, I felt better. I was like, bro, I'm not dizzy. I don't feel no pain or whatever, but like your head is so weak now. So, like, you could get like a small light. I got a light hit. It was a light hit.

And I was just confused. Like, I don't even know where I am. Because they pull you out of the game then? Oh, yeah. Because you were just done. Everyone on the whole team, like, knew. I'm like, bro, it's kind of scary, to be honest with you. Like, you don't know what's going on at all.

And oh, yeah, they knew because I had it the week before. It pulled me out. Well, Dean, you've taken some shots in your MMA career. And you've never been knocked out in an MMA fight. Rocked out. You've been knocked down, but you've never been knocked out. I've watched some of your fights that I was actually at, and I still can't believe that you didn't get K-O'd to next month.

You're just like, oh, cool, whatever. I'm going to keep fighting you. That's the reason I don't look like Justin Bieber. I look a little bit different for some reason. Yes, you too. All right. Let's be careful of traumatic brain injury. Chokes.

Next section on chokes. Chokes are the most effective way to end a fight without a weapon. They incapacitate an enemy. With supervision, chokes can be applied in training exactly as a soldier would in the battlefield. Yeah. Great. For training purposes, hold chokes only until your opponent taps. Holding a choke for lengthy periods may cause injury or death.

Okay. So, this is one of the... One of the things we're dealing with. They have to say that. They have to say that. I know that's, but. Wait, have to say what? Like, it could be injured.

I mean, if you hold someone asleep for five minutes. Yeah. But if someone goes to sleep, you let them go. They'll wake up. Now, if someone is, there's certain substances that can actually interact with certain organs. That could be dangerous. That's true. If someone has a medical condition, never know.

But I swear, being choked out is safe than being knocked out. Oh, it's. It's not, it's, it's infinitely safer. It's infinitely safer. Now, if you have, being choked out is, I would get, I would go so far as to say being choked out has no negative impact on your health. Yeah. No. Now look, would you want to get choked out all day, every day?

No. But if you get choked out, 30 seconds later, you are totally viable to do anything that you, that you need to do. And with no impairment whatsoever. You get knocked out just like you said, Echo Charles. If you, if someone gets knocked out, you are messed up. Yeah. And you have probably some kind of permanent damage to your brain.

Choked out, no factor. That's fine. Would you compare being choked out to like your leg falling asleep? I'm sure anatomically and physiologically there's a lot different. Yeah, probably something similar. You know, like your leg falls to see you're like, oh, and then it comes back. Yeah, yeah. Then you're fine.

That's what it feels like to be. Yeah, it's just, it's horrible because, you know, law enforcement, actually at this point, there's so many law enforcement departments where the choke is illegal. Yeah, it's the same as shooting someone else. Yep, it's lethal force and you will be charged. And when properly trained, now look, if someone's improperly trained, there's a higher percentage that they might actually hurt somebody. True. But anyone that's properly trained, I mean, please, if you come to arrest me and I'm being a jerk because I'm on drugs or drunk or whatever, choke me out.

Please choke me. Don't shoot me. Don't shoot me and don't beat me in the head with a baton, right? Yeah. Because that's going to mess me up permanently. Whereas you choke me out, you put me to sleep, put me in cuffs. I'll wake up, sober up, and I'll be like, yeah, I'm sorry, man. Whereas if you hit me in the head with a baton six times, which is what it's going to take to knock me out, I'm going to wake up, I'm going to be messed up.

up I'm going to have cuts all over my head stitches stitches brain damage of some kind I'm going to sue everybody I'm going to be it's just a disaster where's he put me to sleep last little 90 night rear naked choke it's a terrible thing it's a terrible thing that that's been demonized the way it has and and look there's been some cases where clearly it was a freaking major problem because a choke got put on held for too long put on by someone that was panicked or otherwise freaking out. Yeah. And it was the wrong move to make and the training wasn't there to let a person realize,

oh, this person's unconscious now I need to let him go. Yeah, true. And no one was detached enough to be like, hey, that person's subdued now. You can let him go. But that's jokes. What'd you write down, dude? No, I was just, I was saying, like, you know, about the illusions of, well, I mean, it's U.S.

you know, so if you have me in a choke, I'll bite your arm or I'll poke your eyes. And truth is, you get a high-level black belt and they have the choke and try to actually start, start with my arm in your mouth if you want. Your teeth will, it won't shatter, but you will stop biting me. Oh, you reach back from my eyes, you have three seconds you go to sleep. I could hide my eyes too. And the eyes are not like jello. I mean, they're very sensitive, but I mean, it's just funny people think, oh, you know,

that's the USC, we're in control, I just reach back to focus eyes. that's annoying. It pissed me off, actually. You saw that video with Boss Rutton. Yeah, you know, with the choke. Reach back for my eyes or reach for the groin. So these are targets or opportunity. You have to include that as a possibility.

Right. Right. But I'm saying like just the thought of, here's a quick ease. We have the choke. Just reach you off the eyes. No, it's not that easy because if they know what they're doing, they're squeezing you take you for three seconds. Yeah.

You're sleeping. Yeah. And you're not getting their eyes out in three seconds. You might scratch your eyelid. Yeah. I've had people try to gauge my eyes out before and it's ineffective compared to a choke. They're going to sleep. Yeah, it'll kind of piss me off.

I might choke you harder. Yeah, you might choke harder. Bite my arm right through your teeth. You know, it's just stuff like that. It sounds brutal. It is brutal, but don't bite my arm. You know what I'm saying? So that comes up.

There is a happy medium of including that as a possibility, but not really else in that that is a quick fix. It's just something to include your training. Joint locks. Attacks on most large joints, for example, elbow, shoulder, and knee are painful long before causing injuries, which allows soldiers to conduct full force training without significant risk of injury. The exceptions are wrist attacks and twisting knee attacks.

Therefore, these attacks should be taught with great care and should not be allowed during sparring. That's interesting. Pete the Greek disagrees 100%. Yes, I think so. The way we do, Jocko, echo myself, what they're talking about is something known as a toll or a heel look. It twists your heel or your foot,

but the consequences of your knee twist usually. Depends on you if you have a strong knee ankle, your ankle might pop. first now these kind of things done responsibly can be done in training as long as you catch and release also your partner has to know not turn the wrong way it hurt themselves so I think there should be included training but I see a white belt you don't teach him a heel look and go hard because yeah there's with a boot on a military boot you can just grab the boot twist it you don't need to get your look

you know they can just grab the boot so so with boots on leglock city bro yeah it is it is with heel hooks heel hooks do not hurt until I pot until you're injured right at the edge of yeah right at the edge it might for But I actually hurt someone with a heel hook. I was a blue belt. And I was training with a friend of mine who's a seal, who's all amped up. And I put a heel hook on. And I put it on to a point where I was like, oh, you know, whatever.

He's not tapping. And I think I just let it go or whatever, but it hurt him. So, and he didn't really feel the pain from it. And I went to something else. So it is a thing and you do need to pay attention to that that heel hooks really don't hurt that much until you're injured Wrist locks Yeah, there's also that weird I don't know why I Is that included as many bones in the hand is all these bones together and there's certain little pop could be this one bone in this one this one this one little like asked dr. Luke

You know he's over the hand the hand of obviously but it could be the this little knuckle. It could be the finger. It could be that finger. So a little pressure could pop a finger. Yeah, so that's what they mean. They are effective, though. There's some really effective wrist locks. Generally speaking on the ground, there's not a lot of

very effective standing wrist locks against a trained opponent at least. Because the opponent has a lot of mobility. Yes. Yes. You need to isolate one of the major limbs, the neck or one of the arms. So it's controlled next to the trunk of the body, is what I'm saying? Yeah. You know how like the heel hook, right? You don't really feel it in

So it's kind of too late scenario, right? What about knee bars? In your experience, same deal? Kimora is worse than a straight knee lock. As far as what, the pain? The twisting motion, if you're on the opposite to Kimora, it could be a problem. If your knee pops from a straight, I mean, you know, you'd be sore. Now, if you don't tap at all and it does break, and then it's, of course, serious injury.

But the straight knee lock, you feel the pain right away. But your question about the pain level. Yeah, exactly, right. The pain level and a straight knee lock is there. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you'll know to tap. I've had my knee pop from a knee bar didn't feel it even when it popped I didn't really feel it that my I knew there was something wrong You're so athletic but seriously running your whole life maybe that's the reason running running running

You lose a lot of the nerves in your knee yeah it's very possible yes because it did swell up I didn't like I was it was it was like I was it was Was it actually injured though you was like because you have those weird knees too that sometimes make a noise for no reason they pop out right Yeah and that's a good point it probably was that it was swollen for I don't know a week two weeks maybe which actually technically as far as compared to a real knee injury is not that much time. So was I injured? Moderately injured. But it did swell up and I think it was just a meniscus situation.

But I didn't feel it though. It wasn't painful. That's strange. So it could be like any unique thing. Like the arm lock that next day their arms were up. Yeah, yeah. But the knee is a little more serious but it's not as bad as a Kimora. A Kimor, if you get an injury from Kimora, it's a little worse than a straight knee lock generally.

Twisting heel is different. Yeah, well, your shoulders of, Complex. More complex joint. Twisting. What have you, you got knee surgeries pretty early. Yeah.

Didn't you, Dean Lister? 97 and 2000. How old were you? I must have been 20, 21. And what was the first injury? It was from high school football. I got hit from the side. My knee was on,

someone was on their, like, they already got knocked down. They were on the hands of knees and my knee got propped up against the ribs. I didn't see them. I'm pursuing downline. I was a linebacker.

And someone hit me from the right side and I twisted it over. just perfect you know I just see the guy I saw the video my knee planted on the side and I got hit for the right just just pop right over so was it full ACL oh ACL at the LCL and the meniscus medial or a lot of so you got that triple for that surgery bucket handle Terry that's what they call it but yeah and then doctors like yeah need surgery but you you have a strong knee capsule I'm like what does that mean well right now you're okay kind of but that eventually just came out James Nielsen you had a triangle I was in a full squat just came out one time on

I'm at in 97 and then I got surgery. And then you needed surgery. I always kind of forgot that you got surgery in 97 and that you, most of your career was post and knee surgery. Shout out to Ron Bergman for, I had an employment for them and my insurance lapsed just like a week after that. So I had full. Sweet.

So I got, yeah, thanks to Rob Bergman, my friend, yeah. He took him the job. You got lucky on that one. Lucky. That's an expensive thing. Yeah. And then you got another one in 2001? Yeah, but that was just a meniscus.

That's just a shaving. Yeah, meniscus. 2001. 2003 was a good year for me in Brazil. 2001, I was, you know, for three weeks. It ended up. It was not a big deal. And then you got shoulder surgery.

Soil surgery. I had five shoulder surgeries in a year and a half. That's not fun. Because I had an infection in Brazil. And that Brazil, are you having infection? You know, really bad. Serious infection. Like, they were even saying in Portuguese, like, hey, we're not saying you might get your arm

cut off, but, you know, it could happen. I'm like, bro. When a doctor says, it's, you say, They're kind of like, but they're telling you for a reason. So yeah. So I think what surgery was that? Like the original problem. What was it?

It was my medial, not what it was, my inferes, my sub scapularis, and my labrium and my rotatoric cuff, which those was all ripped up from all the competitions I've had. Also in Russia, broke, broken Russia. Snapped. That's all. But it's okay. That's all. We have a lot of overlapping surgery or injuries.

Even actually, I didn't, I tore my knee. Kind of real similar in a similar way the year before, 96, yeah. Football, same deal. And your bicep, too. Yeah, the bicep. In fact, one of our surgeries was on the same day. We ran into each other. Did you know that?

Yeah, I go in for the surgery. And the doctor's like, oh, yeah, Dean's here. I was like, what? And then he's like coming to after his surgery. He's like, who was the doctor? Where he, like, knew you guys? Well, yeah, because you sent, when I first tore my bicep was after you tore yours, it was at a different time.

So when I tore mine, I was like, hey, who's your guy? Like, who did you go to? Because he was back in the game. So I was going to let me go to that guy. So it was Norman Kane. Yeah, that's right. And so I went to him and then he patched me up or whatever. He's like, no, no, no, no.

That was the first one. The second or when I ran into him was the second one. What if I'm being wheeled out? I'm like, Echo, don't do it. Don't trust him. I would have trust him if I was. He's only torn one bicep, haven't you, Dean? Oh, yeah, it was a complete tear, though.

Just rolled up my shoulder. You were there when that rolled. one that rolled up the shoulder right that was there too yeah yeah yeah remember Robert Garcia where back to was like uh I don't know but yeah yeah I was like that's bad injury but the second one it was like nine years later when you got your other surgery on your shoulder bicell it was that you had a big surgery so I went and Norman Kane did yours right that one yeah but I didn't get it from norm Norman McCain didn't do mine it was the other guy it was like his partner guy

or whatever so but I saw that's who told me when I walked in it was Norman Kane and he was like oh what's up man Dean's here and then he's like no we finish already so then Dean's like you know when you come that's a bad sign for Jiu-jitsu would you let go to get surgery and your other friends are in there getting surgery as well other guys there too yeah not a good but hey 100% is your how is your it's getting strong I just rehab and progress you know so you okay yeah yeah check it actually has a protocol like I said the Army doesn't miss anything protocol for injured soldiers.

You know, it's got everything in here. It also says this, striking is not the most efficient way to incapacitate an enemy and often results in injury to the striker. So this is like a pro-grappling statement. Not only is it not the most efficient way, but I'm probably going to get a hurt too. The old school boxers, apparently with no gloves, would punch the body more. That's why the hands were done here. Because punching the forehead back in those days, your hands broken now, you're like,

You know, pilots are retired now. Or, you know, you're not going to go to the job at the factory now. You know, these guys actually worked at the time. So the rumor, actually, pretty much known with the 18-Hiris, it was like the hands were low because you were punching more of the body. The face, yeah, but you're taking a chance to the face. So there we go. I mean, they knew it back in.

They didn't have the same medical care we do now. There's a reason they were hands low. Yeah, they actually keep them in, tucked to their sides a little bit. We'll prevent those body shots. And yet further out in front of them, so they maybe can get up and, like, defend the a little bit if they need to that's interesting it does say however strike is important part of all over all straight strategy strikes can be very effective in manipulating the opponent into unfavorable positions striking be practiced with

various types of protective padding such as gloves defense can be practiced using reduced force blows so there you go talks about like I mean this is such a detailed document and the army just does this man the army is squared away when it comes to doctrine they make them just incredibly detailed things and this team obviously put a huge amount into this. Talking about training. The military profession is inherently dangerous. Commanders must train their units to tough standards under the most realistic conditions

of possible. This chapter discusses the combatives training program from an institutional training to operational unit training, training areas, training techniques, teaching techniques, and safety precautions that must be considered before conducting combatives training. And they just go they go they did get after it in this thing. I mean this is like if you didn't know anything about anything you could pick up this manual and start to piece it together, you know? Deliberate work risk assessment worksheet is valid to identify a necessary risk by comparing potential benefit to potential loss. The draw process allows units to identify and control hazards conserve combat power and resources and complete the mission. This process is cyclic and continuous. It must be integrated into all phases of operations and training.

Like these guys are just, they're not even playing around with us. And then they go, what do you got, Dean? No, I was just saying, like how this is structured. I really like it a lot because you need to have a guideline, especially in the military. I think it's really good. I think you're doing a good job so far. It's very complete.

One thing that I think is very important as far as training on your own, if you're in the military or if you're under some certain guidance like this is, there has to be some wiggle room, some leeway, such as also a move that I don't even do that well, but I know my students do well. Like, like, remember Eric had a better darsness. me. Maybe I taught it to him, though. So there's certain things I'll teach that would not be under my guideline, but I teach because some people do those moves naturally well. Some people, I wouldn't strive, I wouldn't teach, I'll teach them the triangle, but that's the legs are not very long. It's

not going to be their main move, but that's going to learn it anyways. Someone else is going to be, that's going to be their move. So I think it's really important we have the guideline, but there's also has to be some wiggle room. That's why it's important to train in your own, your own free time, to find your own style. I think it's really important for jihitsu. Yeah, you don't want to learn by the book only it's good to have guidelines yeah it's got to have the guidelines but you got to get out there and then it goes through the whole thing of like how the basic combatives course of instruction there's a BCC instruction and what that does and what that's what that includes and then tactical combatives course and what that includes and then you get them combatives master

trainer course of instruction the CMTC this addresses all ranges the fight by training striking skills and introduced soldiers to the integrated integrated integrated combatives training into the rest of their warrior tasks and drills, i.e. incorporating combatives into training, close quarters combat training and mission unit training. And then it goes over duties of the combatives master trainer course certified instructors. And it says everything that they have to do. And there's a whole list of things that they have to do to be like a master trainer in this stuff. Just they went to great. lengths to get this program.

And, and you know, a lot of this, I bet was they, they, you got to play the game in the military. You know, you got to play the game.

You got to give the leadership what it is that they need to say, yeah, we, yep. Oh, this is, I bet you they pulled out like some

immediate action drill rifle training guidebook and said, all right, we're going to put all the stuff that's in here about safety. We're going to put it in here. Yeah. And they did an awesome job of setting this up where it's kind of hard,

hard for the leadership. ship to say well you guys really haven't thought this through it's like oh no we thought this through to the freaking nth degree yeah here's some of the stuff the the combatives instructor instructor has to do receive at least 20 hours of instruction gain the ability to teach basic combatives and develop scenario based training and understand standard competition rules pass a hands-on performance oriented test on basic compatives combatives techniques including the following maneuvers escape the Mount, trap and roll, pass the guard, achieve mount from side control, arm push and roll to the rear mount, escape rear mount, escape the mount, shrimp to the guard, scissors sweep, rear naked choke, cross-collar choke from the mount,

bent arm bar, straight arm bar from the guard, straight arm bar from the mount, sweep and attempt the straight arm bar, sweep from the attempted straight arm bar, close the gap and achieve the clinch, take down from the front to the mount, rear take down, front guillotine choke. Guillotine choke, sorry. Guilotine, poor. Pass a written exam on the combatives program and standard combatives rules Conduct at least one scenario-based training exercise and receive an additional 20 hours training so they they've got everything like that's what you need to do Right so that's there this is as thorough as you could hope for they forgot the spinning jumping double reverse Upside down but other than that and you know we had Tim Kennedy on and he was talking about and he was talking about

He's the three-time, the three-time Army combatives champion. And when he won it twice, and he was the only person that I won it twice, and then he won it three times. But that's just an awesome competition. And it's grueling what they do. It's like multiple fights. And the rules kind of escalate as you go through. I think like the first day, when they're just trying to weed people out,

it's just like grappling only. Yeah. And then the next day is like grappling with strikes on the ground or something like this. And then like the finals is just basically MMA with freaking fatigues on. That's freaking legit, man. And there's everybody shows up to that thing. It's the army, right?

Freaking legit. Outstanding way to figure out where people are at. And then it gets into like unit training. And successful unit combatants program continue to focus on the core techniques taught to soldiers during their initial military training. mastery of these moves not exposed to a large number of techniques will result in more proficient fighters for unit combatives training to be successful it must become an integral part of the unit's culture successful unit combatives programs have four

characteristics training for every soldier set standards and hold people accountable for them motivate soldiers and leaders to achieve excellence integrate combatives into mission training so I think like that's the kind of thing that statement right there this is what law enforcement needs to look at yeah combatives training for everyone. They need to do it all the time. It needs to be part of mission training. And you know, I've been going around saying for the last couple of years that I think law enforcement should be training 20% of their time. 20% of the time that you're at work as law enforcement, you should be getting trained. But I think it's interesting because Jocko,

we talked about this personally about law enforcement. You're like, you've done vehicle interdiction, you know. You've actually done it in a wartime scenarios at night, you know. And the thing is, I'd rather get arrested by Jocko than I actually. actually no other people would prefer to get arrested by jocco than someone else who doesn't know Jiu-Jitsu so the thing is it's not always nice with me you know I'm also I'm also not that nice back by the way to be fair but I think it's gonna be you know is that extreme I think the idea of you know human confrontation just being used to that more and more I mean I mean how do you

get debate skills without getting into you're not getting an argument not flowing argument but you actually have to get into the debate itself you and just talk by yourself or getting the debate with someone else to get skills like that, you know. So I think it's a good, good point. Plus, you get in shape. Yeah. So let me ask you this question. Picture you have 10 police officers.

Yeah. And there's a scenario that's unfolding. And one of the groups of 10 is like normal police officers today. And they have the normal four hours per year of defensive tactics and combatives. But you have all 10 of them versus another department that is training 20% of their time has spent training. So, and they've been, for a year, have been spent 20% of their time training. Yeah. And there's a call, some emergency situation.

There's somebody going crazy with a knife. There's, you know, a domestic violence scenario where a guy's on PCP and he's freaking out. And or you come home to your house. and there's like something bad is happening at your house. Who do you want to show up? Do you want the 10 people, the 10 police officers that have had four hours of training each, so 40 hours of training?

Or you want only eight, because two of these guys are actually on their training right now. They're not working. So you only get eight, but that eight has trained hundreds of hours over the last year to prepare for all these different scenarios. There's no doubt who anyone would pick. Anyone would pick.

Well, that time could be a lot of better to study the law. It could be a lot of more for, I don't know, marksmanship. They're stupid if they say that. It could be a lot of more for counseling sessions. I mean, the thing is we're talking about human confrontation and I think how to de-escalate because in chisit-su, it's not always about me being stronger than you. It's about me finding a way around.

Yeah. And also that training is not necessarily, it's not all combatants. It's not all shooting. You will be taking de-escalation. Hey, how do you deal with someone that's, oh, you can tell they're clearly angry. domestic violence situation the guy's freaking out what are you gonna do hey you need to

settle down and that's like no that's not gonna work out well yeah you need to you hey keep some distance talk to them you can so you're gonna get trained in all these different aspects not just training on shooting and fighting it's training on how to de-escalate how to get control how to how to set things up what psychological maneuvers can you make to get someone to calm down like all those things are what you need to get trained in so the fact that I hear the excuse of like well you need the police No untrained police have less value way less value than trained police not even close

And you know that was another thing right as I was having some of those discussions and arguments that while I was in the seal teams about Hey this system that we're using right now the guys are trained up in five days The system that you're talking about would take years you know three four five six seven eight nine ten years to get proficient at And I I remember this like occasionally get a good comeback or whatever I was like occasionally get a good comeback or whatever I was I was like, well, you're in the teams for 20. So why not get good at it? You know? Why would you expect someone to get good in five days at something that takes a lifetime to get good at?

And by the way, you're in the SEAL teams for 20 years, at least. Well, I guess you could be for less than. But most guys, most guys are in it for four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twenty, twenty, five years. Let's get good at this thing. So that's the unit training and they talk about standards and they talk about making it part of your physical training. Yeah. Right? If you're going to train, that's another thing.

Like police officers, that 20% of time that should be spent training, that includes like, how are you getting in shape? Are you in shape? I want to be in shape if you're a cop. Oh my God. You know, you see these, some of these videos of police officers. And you're thinking, wait a second, how is this person going to stop anybody that's remotely athletic, even if I just run away? How are you going to catch anybody? Yeah. And, you know, this whole thing, you know, that.

We did a podcast on the Yuvaldi situation, and it's just, what else needs to happen in America to realize that we need more training? And by the way, that Yuvaldi situation, the fact that people didn't respond and acted in a cowardly manner is also part of training. It's also part of training because you learn like, oh, if I don't do something aggressive, then I'm going to get caught. I'm going to look bad, I'm going to be bad, I'm going to, the culture changes. If you have a culture, and I used to see this with seal platoons, if you had a culture that, like, you had some of these seal platoons coming through, and they were, like, ready to take on the world. And you throw some scenario at them, they were going on the attack. And that's a culture that happens.

You have another seal platoon where it's like, well, we're cautious. We have a zero defect policy. We don't want to get in trouble. We don't want to do anything wrong. We don't want to look bad. And that's what happens. You see them stack up on a building. I don't want to go. Do you want to go? I don't want to go.

So you have to, you have to inculcate them with the right culture where they know, hey, if you make a mistake, it's okay because you're getting after it. I mean, we just did a freaking podcast about the damn Nazis. And part of the Nazis culture that they tried to instill was we'd rather have you make a bad decision and do something than not make a decision at all. Yeah. The worst decision is no decision. Yeah. So the training that I'm talking about, it involves everything and it corrects all of the, these problems. It's getting them a shape, get them more you're attuned to stress, human confrontation, de-escalation, how to defend yourself, being default-aggressive? How to not damage, or how to lessen

damage to a suspect? Yep. I think it's awesome overall. We have that department that, I mean, that's not saying this should be the policy, but one was at Michigan, some county, the sheriff, everyone had to be a blue belt in his department. Now, I'm not saying that should be, then again, but it sounds like we're on the right track. Yeah, we're on the right track there. I'm just saying like, like I think it's, but then again, we're partial because we have this great reality called Jiu Jitsu that we're exposed to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also we're seeing the news and we're seeing cops have to do things and get beat up by one guy and taking two or three people to take somebody and getting weapons taken away. And it's like awful to see.

How does this even happening? So it's not, look, we might be biased towards Jiu-Jitsu. Fine. Take my bias out of it. I'll still tell you that you better learn how to fight and you better train and you better spend time. training. Jocko, you've seen at least 10 different videos. I'm talking Brazilian jujizu black belt versus random. Yeah, yeah, like for instance, like these manner on the guy he calmed, Matt Serra in Vegas, this drunk guy was harassing him

and even and Hall. Ryan Hall also in some restaurants. Ryan Hall. Ryan Hall, yeah, yeah. I'm all drunk people and they're just madder like, hey man, calm down. They go, I'll sue you and this old guy, you know, hey, call with the cop, you know, and the security comes and no one gets punched. And I know this is, you know, cops and the guy doesn't have a gun I understand but I'm saying these are black belts which is of course different level but they're holding out and not hurting them yeah and they don't have three homies with with with a batons so by the way you want to have groups you want to have uh team tactics with law enforcement of course I'm not saying

but it is cool if you have the ability and the opportunity to well look at that and it's also one from Brazil this guy tried to I'm not saying I think she just left but she's this guy tried to uh I don't know rock take her purse or something and she's like matter on the guy just beating him up this is in Brazil legit blackbell, just female just the guy screamed and he's going so-co-do so-co she means help in Portuguese it means help in Portuguese and no one's

helping him it's just a joke just madder just beating the guy like it's kind of brutal but that is just let's say it's a grandiose comparison but if you have that opportunity and that ability it's pretty cool yeah there we go and and it's it's heinous to watch this stuff

on an almost daily basis or I mean at least once a week you're seeing a video of a of a cop that's not trained yeah and and at a bad outcome and look there's there's all kinds of cops that are doing the right thing all the time there's cops that are that are doing things right to the best their ability by the way they're investing their own money yeah and their own time so that they can be better police officers good on them but should you have to make that sacrifice and by the way what if you know guys got a wife and kids and he's got a mortgage to pay and all of a sudden, you know, it's $148 a month to train Jiu-Jitsu, or it's $165 a month to train Jiu-Jitsu, all of a sudden it's like, I got to make a choice between, you know, getting my kid a new bicycle and training Jiu-Jitsu, you know what, I'm going to sacrifice this month and the next thing, you know, they look up in three years and they're not training anymore. Yeah. So why not help the police so that they can help the community? You know, he's doing a good job is our bro Ryan with BP control. He has the, Yeah, what was React now.

It's called the Bortak. They're like the federal SWAT team with the border. They're actually the guys who killed the Uvaldi shooter. Yeah, 100%. But these guys, I mean, they do medical training. I don't know, every day, but they have, they have doing barricades training, you know, or they were doing ground. I even did a few symptoms of classes out there and they don't want to learn like the new

knee lock, you know, and they're doing like the combatters, but for the border patrol. And it's pretty, it's pretty cool because they're not just sitting around, well, they're going on duty and do it, but they're actually training every day. Yeah, it's pretty cool. And that's the way. that's the way law enforcement should be. You should train 20% of your time. If that means you train, you know, an hour a day

or an hour and a half or two hours every day or that means you take one day a week where you train all day, I don't know, but figure it out. Because if you're not training, you're not going to be prepared. And when you're not prepared, then you overreact.

When you overreact, that causes problems. And then you get, you know, innocent people getting killed. Or people that don't deserve to get killed, why? Because there's a panic happening. It's extreme jaco, but I had an acquaintance that we're talking. He's talking about he was in Afghanistan. He was in the Marines.

And he was like, no, Army, my bad, he was Army. Both sides will kill me for saying that. And he was talking about how they would practice putting IVs in with night vision on. Yeah. And like that's, you know, well, why? Well, in case we have night vision on, we can't see, you know. And, you know, because it's different death perception or whatever. But he's like, yeah, you know, that's just something like, okay, that makes sense.

But that sounds kind of extreme. Well, why is it extreme? one day you might have to do that. Yeah, and how much better are you prepared for if you don't have to have night vision on? Well, cool. Yeah, it's easy. If you happen to roll up on a suspect and they attack you and they weigh 110 pounds and they don't know anything, cool, you can handle them. Great.

But what happens when they're 220 pounds and they're a purple belt? Yeah. Or they wrestled in high school. Is it most training for in case something goes wrong? Should be. So you have a jamming your pistol. Oh, well, did it mean you didn't clean your pistol correctly? Well, it's still going to happen.

It's still going to have jams. There's level one, two, I don't know, three, what level. That's what Saras taught me, different ways to clear a jam. But in case something goes wrong, if nothing goes wrong, you actually don't need a drill. But I think, why do you want to drill if nothing ever goes wrong? Something's going to go wrong eventually. So that's, I'm just saying, juditsu martial arts, what they're doing in the Army, I think, is really good because we're getting ready for in case something bad happens.

Yeah. And all of this will straighten out your mindset. Yeah. It will straighten out your mindset. Because if you don't, if you're not used to, this stuff, when somebody grabs you and you're not used to it, like somebody grabs me or you or you, like somebody grabs one of us, there's no mental hurdle of any kind to be prepared for combat in that moment. Most people, when they get grabbed, they haven't ever been grabbed before. And they have to,

they have a giant mental hurdle clear before they can even respond in any way, never mind appropriately. And by the way, they're not going to respond appropriately. They're going to respond badly. So it's like this has to change And like you said I mean I think this a lot of the stuff that's in this army combatives manual is Suitable for law enforcement And there's some people that freak out by the way when you say that Oh, you want the cops to be military paramilitary

Yes actually I want them to be well trained I want them to be ready for whatever's going to happen Yeah so There you go. Then they go through like how to sustain, how to get people sustained where they can then keep up their training and stay good. Here's everyday mission essential task list requiring use of combative skills. A compliant subject at a traffic control point suddenly becomes noncompliant. These are just like things to run, just scenarios to run.

The battalion indicates that an intelligent subject must be captured. during the search and seizure mission, the lead man in the search team encounters hostile opposition and has a weapons malfunction. Okay. Could that happen? Yes, absolutely. Three, when turning a corner in a bunker complex,

an enemy grabs a soldier's weapon and pins him against the wall. Okay, could that happen? Yes, it could. In closed quarters, an enemy attacks a soldier under zero illumination. Could that happen? Yes, it could. These are everyday situations that could happen. Well, yeah, they could happen in combat,

but they could happen in law enforcement. enforcement as well. If you're not ready for me in any way, you're not going to know what to do and you're going to fall apart. And then you're going to end up doing something stupid. You know, I've heard, actually talked about this when I was in Puerto Rico working with a couple of military guys, that a lot of guys are used to these optics, like these, you know, eotech, whatever, these things on their carbines or their pistols. If that doesn't work one day or it goes out, they're not practiced with open sites. So the thing is like, I mean, if you rely upon that right there, specifically that, and you don't have that available to you, like, you know, you're not keeping yourself up to, up to date. Upon something goes wrong. The drilling, I think it's really good. So if you were exactly caught and you can't see,

if I can have someone, if I have a hold of someone, I don't need my eyes that much, to be honest. You really don't need your eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Five your leg. Yeah, people compete when they're blind. Yeah, absolutely. And there's some strong guys.

Yeah, strong blind guys. Ryan Job. I was trained with Ryan Jobb after he was blind. And it was like, you know, once you make contact with him, it's like, it's on. Yeah. Talks about, you know, a bunch of stuff with live, training ground sparring situational sparring right that's something that we've been doing

for a long time soldier a begins within soldiers B's guard they spar until soldier A passes the guard is swept or submitted reset go again my reset points yeah that's it it's very straightforward things but you could do that with with every aspect like any of these scenarios you can run these scenarios okay it's dark you grab my weapon let's do it once let's do it twice let's do it three times let's do it five times what works what doesn't work. These are like a piece of the puzzle that separately is each piece is different, but in the end you put it all together.

So it's hard to do the puzzle unless you see, you know, what the picture of, you know, what we're going to make? And if you don't understand the pieces, they make the frame with corners first and, of course, and so I think it's a good way to have these situational, or I call reset drills. Yeah. Or timing grade drills. It's a really good to have. Yeah.

And they go through, you know, everything from like, oh, how you spar on the ground, how you spar with takedowns, how you do. I guess we call it shoot boxing. We're like boxing gloves, but you're doing takedowns. What do they call that? They call it closed boxing with takedowns. And then you still have to sometimes, as you said earlier, if we only do shoot boxing and we never do wrestling by itself

or we never advanced to where we're doing a full sparring, then we're going to miss something. So you have to mix it up to some extent, or it can be a problem. This is where it starts talking about basic ground fighting techniques. Basic ground fighting techniques build a fund. So all that, like we, now we're getting in,

this is just talking about like how to run a program, how to set up a program, what the safety protocols are. And then it gets into the like the actual fighting. Basic ground fighting techniques build a fundamental understanding of dominant, body positions and should be one of the primary focuses before moving on to more advanced techniques basic fight strategy when two untrained fighters meet they instinctively

fight using the universal fight plan they pummel each other with their fists until one of them receives enough damage that they cannot fight back effectively most forms of martial arts training are designed to make fighters better at executing this strategy however this approach has two drawbacks one or both fighters are unarmed progress is solely dependent on the development of skill bigger this is actually three drawbacks bigger stronger and faster fighters have a natural advantage developing enough skill to overcome these advantages requires more time that can be

dedicated to during institutional training let's a little bit of a weird thing to say because we already talked about and they already talked about the fact that it's gonna take time so you can't use that excuse here a little bit the combatants program uses a more efficient approach fighting is taught the context of strategy the basic technique serve as an educating metaphor to teach the basic fight strategy. Fighters learn to defeat an opponent by controlling the elements of the fight. Range, angle, and level. The number one element of a fight is range.

The combatives program has four phases. Projectile, striking, clinching, grappling. This chapter involves the soldiers, provide soldiers with these basic. techniques at basic levels against an unarmed enemy according the circumstances of surrounding conflict fighters can use these techniques to disable opponent or force the opponent to submit you know we're talking about these four different like there's there in the projectiles that's actually you're something that's good yeah boss really box room where you say like you could throw a chair or something yeah for sure

for sure so one thing I noticed the Muay Muay Thai which of course a great great style kickboxing the kick with his shins which that's how I could But if you have a boot on, if you block shin to shin with a shin, you have a strong shin, fine. But a boot hitting your shin, it's an issue, bro. It's an issue. So Savat from France, they have these little, like, wrestling shoes with little metal tips, though. It's like, they're not pointing, but if you block like more tie and they have those little shoes on with the metal tip, your shin is a problem. So interesting, based upon how you're dressed, a boot, if you block your shin, a boot kicking your shin is going to be, let's say, not a winning situation for you.

So I'm just saying that essentially we're looking at now because I'm sure they're not, they're thinking about having the uniform on, maybe body armor. The boots, maybe not a boot, maybe shoes, but different, it depends on how you're dressed. That's another thing too. However, I am on the side of Muay Thai.

I'm on the side of, you know, they seem to this style in Burma where they use head butts. It's crazy. It's pretty effective, by the way. You know, you don't know how to throw a head butt. This kind of stuff. So I do think it's good to get the training with Moitai.

And it's nice when you got a helmet on. That's true. Because then you can headbut somebody and it's like, No damage to you at all. And they won't like the result. It's good times. They're recipient.

You know, so the way, you know, but if we spar with boots and you kick in the knees with boots, you know, you're going to get hurt real fast. You probably can't, it's going to be more dangerous. You spar more Thai. You can learn how, in case someone had to boot on how to defend it. You get the training from Moytai with the tactics in, let's say, the open-minded way, that maybe the arm's showing here, and you can adapt tactics for something like that. I think it's good.

I think it's good. To add the projectiles is actually a good detail. Well, yeah, and by projectiles, they also mean guns. Well, okay, yeah. That counts the projectile weapon. You mean throwing the rifle with someone? Yeah. Here's some like the basic concepts.

Create space. When in combat, a soldier's primary goal to be established, should be to establish space between him and his attacker. A soldier must create enough space to transition to his primary weapon. So there you go. Maintain space. When in combat, soldiers may be able. unable to create enough space and transition to their primary weapon if unable to do so they

may need to maintain space to transition to their secondary weapon or close the distance gain dominant body position and finish the fight so you want to create space you want to maintain space you might have to close the distance when training soldiers the primary goal should be instilling the courage to close the distance the willingness to close with the enemy is a defining characteristic of a warrior and the ability to do so against an aggressive opponent is the first stepped in using range to control a fight this is something that I've talked about so much because you get that question all the time well is you just do really the best thing for self-defense and you've heard me give this explanation a thousand times if I

have space I don't need any self-defense all I can get away from you and run away and that's fine it's when you grab me that's when we have a problem that's when I better know Jiu-jitsu that's when I better know how to grapple at least gain so they say close the distance if you have to if you can't if you can't create space or you can't maintain space the next thing is you actually on the attack and you close the distance you get in close gain dominant position and then finish the fight that's their that's the protocol that they give and then it gets into ground grappling ground grappling provides a sound base and by the way I'm not reading the

whole book obviously but it's skipping ahead to the ground grappling basic techniques stand in base with the primary weapon fighting stance opposing grip thumbs grip wrestler's grip thumb and thumbless grip dominant body positions rear mount mount guard side control and then it starts giving basic positions basic moves and it goes through you know basic finishing moves rear naked choke cross collar choke from the

mount and guard bend arm bar from the mount and side control straight arm bar from the mount straight arm bar from the guard guillotine choke blood chokes attack the blood supply to the brain air chokes attack the air supply these chokes will take longer to cause unconsciousness gives joint locks tapping procedures

that's always good I think that's I failed on that one when I when I hurt John Dudley my buddy John Dudley he pushed me no I didn't give him like a pre-brief okay you know like hey dude I just assumed that he would just

tap and it may or may not help because he was also kind of fired up you know John Dudley going go on the Zerker mode level nine and he's a great athlete in like 29 different categories. So when he was going ham, you know, but I didn't give him a good brief.

So make sure if you're teaching someone, you tell them how to tap. Then it talks about sweeps and takedowns. And, you know, one thing that's interesting is it starts giving like how to stand up in base, which we all know, but how do you stand up in base? Well, the weapon. Like that's also something to think about.

So they address a lot of these things. that take a little bit of thought about how you're going to do it because you don't want to put down your weapon so you can stand up no you want to be able to you want to be able to stand up while you're still holding your weapon fast forward a little bit again you know they talk about the fighting stance and the fighting stance allows the soldier to assume an offensive posture conducive to attack while still being able to move and defend himself the fighting is not only perform a platform for unarmed fighting it can also be used for various weapons from close range content weapons to projectile weapons just detail man the fighter keeps their chin tucked the fighter looks just beneath their eyebrows at the opponent the fighter uses the lead shoulder to block the side of the face just squared away you know procedures and and even the the whole book the manual's got every conceivable thing I mean fast forward here the mount the mount allows a fighter to strike the opponent with punches while restricting the opponent's ability to deliver effective punches return punches

The mount provides the leverage to attack the opponent's upper body with strokes and joint attack. It goes through in detail all these different positions and then, you know, the guard. And all this stuff is the same stuff we say. A fighter never wants to be under their opponent. The guard enables them to defend themselves and transition off their back into a more advantageous position. But yeah, that's what are you going to do in a street fight? Pull guard it. No, no one says that.

Not one person has ever said that in a serious way. They might have joked about it. But no one says pull guard in a fight. Guard means you made a mistake. You messed up. That's why you're in guard. A fighter never wants to be under their opponent. Right.

Exactly. We all agree with that. The guard allows the bottom fighter to exercise a certain amount of control over the range by pushing out or pulling in his opponent with his hips and legs. Yes. So there you go. I mean, and it's got tons of detail in this manual. And by the way, obviously this manual is unclassified.

You can find it on the internet. But it's there. And if you want to look through it, go look through it. Learn. Learn some stuff. Learn about intermediate ground fighting techniques. So then it starts talking about the intermediate fight, their intermediate fight strategy involves adjusting the basic fight strategy

taught in chapter three to accommodate the unpredictable and varying nature of operations. though learning basic combative techniques taught in chapter three, soldiers are instilled with basic fight strategy, the easiest way to impact a soldier's fighting ability. However, soldiers often find themselves in unpredictable situations that span the spectrum of operations. Therefore, soldiers must be prepared to adjust their fight strategy to fit the situation rather than making every situation fit the preferred strategy. So this is telling you to learn more and be adaptable and try different scenarios. And now you start talking about intermediate mount and side control techniques. Posting on the arms, posting on the side, larger opponent pins. This is just getting into more advanced stuff, how to pass the guard, attacks from the mount,

attacks from the rear mount. It's just, it just continues to grow your skill level and eventually gets to grappling with strikes. right so now it says here leaders should not make the mistake of practicing ground fighting techniques exclusively striking is an integral part of all types of fighting grappling with open and closed fist strikes

force the fighters to ensure that they have positive control over their opponent's hands which in turn can prevent the fighter's opponent from striking them in the face or using weapon this is what's cool about Eddie Bravo's combat jiu jiu jitsu right because there's some positions in jiu jiu jitsu they work in Jiu-Jitsu but if you did them

in a fight they're not gonna work so good when you're getting punched in the head especially the palm not just a slap palm strikes

like a punch they're actually not as bone-breaking as a punch with knuckles but they steam more they hurt oh the slaps

hurt more than a punch they don't damage your face as much like broken like cut you you know break your cheek bone

yeah well it's different kind of pain but I mean getting punched is more can the palm strike can but that's

the slop's a slap Man, those slaps on your chest, your back. Oh, yeah. The slaps to the ribs, the slaps to the ribs is like a torture. Jocko myself. We've done this many times. Like, remember, like, if we're having, like, one of those days, you start pulling the shirt up.

Oh, yeah. And then we got back and forth, like, we're still bros, but we're, so they're like, okay, slap, a slap. There's like, I think at some point. Let's just calm down. It's not funny. There's an escalation that could occur sometimes. And unfortunately, for me, I'm usually getting the raw end of that escalation.

I have to hope for a piece out there. I remember one time when my kid, my son was probably like 12, maybe. And we were training, and I had a bad ankle injury. Speaking of, speaking of Sarge, Sarge shot a single on me. And like, I did something or whatever, and it really hurt. It was one of the worst injuries I've had. And luckily it was Sarge.

he like as it was probably going to break he like released and like whatever moved his weight but my ankle's really sprained and so I'm rolling a couple days later of course because that's what we're doing I had like one of that you know the the the ankle braces that like lace up super tight and they have like a so I had one of those things on so I'm rolling with my son and he's like 12 and you know I like get side control or something like half guard I'm in half guard and I like pull his shirt up a little bit and I slap him right on the ribs that painful spot yeah and you can see he's trying to move and he can't really you can see it's like mad right and then you know whatever a transition to another position he you know let him get up on top

or whatever he dives on a toe hold he dives on a toe hold on my injure injured foot and you know quite frankly I probably should have tapped I probably should have tapped but obviously there was no way I was tapping to my own son so I like escape that and this is the this is I've told you the story before so then then I got a cross side and I was I was I was I was like and I started I did the paper cutter choke the key yeah and I go I said something like, hey, I'm injured, you idiot. Do you, I don't attack someone that's injured in their injured area and try to hurt them. Do you understand?

So yes. No. He didn't answer. And he's just looking at me. And I'm looking at him and I go, do you understand? And he's still pissed that I slap him. So I start applying the choke. And I'm applying it hard.

And I'm like, do you understand? He's still just looking at me. I'm like, okay, I'm going to kill him. I'm like, okay, test of wills. He's going to have to die. That's it. So I start, you know how that paper cutter joke? You go down, then you start going out.

I was down, and now I'm going out. And he's starting to turn red and purple and finally. He's like, oh, there's that. I was like, what? He's like, oh, that. And I was like, okay. And then we just kept trading, you know? You had that coming to you, by the way.

Oh, I definitely had it coming to me. I, uh, although, Yeah, I had it come to me. There's a debate of principle for sure, but you had it coming to you. Wait, what, why? Doing the slap thing. The slap thing, the slap thing, even though the slap thing is still done in fun, right? There's still a level of fun to it.

There's no fun about trying to hurt someone that's injured. Yeah. Yeah, but the argument could be made, hey, look, I'm not your son. I'm not you, so I don't know. But maybe some of us didn't sign up for that. have fun that day seem saying that's good that it's fun for you really is you know congratulations you know what though you got to learn to control those emotions a little bit it's part of the process it's part of the process remember when um when you

were back at city boxing came back from wherever you had like Tom you had Grady Mac you had you know you had all these guys in the mat like 10 seals you had one who was the force week yeah yeah yeah and got training and I was I was I was slapping them like because they were down with it because they were getting ready for like deployment there was like And I was talking to smack to them. I'm like, request permission to go back to base.

Mission not accomplished. And I'm like, no, say it. Mission scrubbed. Request permission. Anyways, that was a game. But then again, there's just some fired up guys and it was like the game. So the average person, I wouldn't, you know,

used to cry across the body. But the son, yeah, injured foot, understood. So what's your assessment? Echo says I'm wrong. It's kind of mutual like you and I, we do it because we think it's fun. It's sadistically funny. By the way, Jocko has his days, he makes me feel kind of ashamed sometimes.

I understand. But it's a mutual thing. It's just different. I don't know why. I've known for such a long time. We've always trained that way. We've always trained that way, for sure. Risk, whatever.

Yeah. You know how, okay, so this is, I think this is true. So you know, rattlesnakes, right? When they're, like, not full grown. When they bite, they say they're more kind of dangerous, right? Because they can't control their venom. So consider your 12-year-old kid, right? Yeah.

You're like, okay, we're going, we're going to street level or whatever. right because there's such thing as street rules so okay we're going street rules and that's what I would say the slap is I mean it's it's usually mutual and kind of understood in this way I mean but someone might misunderstood it and like go hand out like really hard exactly yeah you don't just do it to anybody so yeah yeah I'm not rolling like a random person then yeah start to think yes be your friend or your enemy and why and why don't we do it no actually you would even really slap rib slap your your enemy that's sort of like

Don't move, right? This is just like, you know, general friendly harassment. Yes. Yeah, friendly harassment. Exactly right. So, but the reason you don't do it to like a stranger or something is like, you don't know the reaction. Yeah.

They don't, they're not under that element of control that your friends are. Now, 12 year old kid who's to say where he's at mentally, is him saying? Apparently, apparently he's in vengeance mode. He is like a little rattlesnake where he's like, okay, we were taking it to that level. We'll take it to that level. He don't know, though. He didn't know what that means as far as the translation to what he can. do you know so he's just going for what's he going for it's going to go jumping on that toe hold

yeah all day and crank it like i said crank you had that coming to you sir yeah i don't know man i guess i don't know i see you you're probably right man yeah a toll but to me that escalation i guess you know what it is part of it is for me this was just like a way to make things more fun yeah i would actually agree with that you know like dean dean dean Like there's a certain level of if Dean and I get in that zone There's a certain level of it's just a way to make it a little bit more fun a little bit more consequences Yeah The other day training and jocco like I was having a good day and I'm like neon we call it park bench

Remember park bench? Yeah, your chin is in the face you can't move and I'm like all right sir straight You're trying to make him like lie against the wall straight, but he won't let me do it So your pen it's like your back's on the wall you're on your side and someone's shin is in your face and your stomach you just like fuck man it's called park bench It's worse than the stomach is is a very demoralizing situation jocco did it back to me of course but but yeah it just it just makes it fun and it looks real bad too Yeah it looks pretty bad it's called the humiliation levels high yes yeah When you're in the bottom you're like you feel you feel like I don't know why I'm here bro I made several mistakes too yeah

41 not not aware a toll is basically grabbing like your toes doing that but for your toe and it's actually your arm is more flexible than your than your ankle or your knee so it's actually it can be a damaging move for anyone wondering what a toll is grabbing the toe yeah twisting the ankle therefore the knee as well yeah for the record I don't think necessarily that you were in the wrong in fact I think that your son was kind of technically in the wrong but a little rattlesnake you can't expect him to control he did to know the line all definitely was tactical who was strategical which one was tactical was

Strategic was that a strategic or tech versus tactical he's trying to make him to a tougher better fighter Yeah, yeah yeah so there you go yeah was it a good Tactically maybe I shouldn't have let him out Teets him a long lasting lesson imagine imagine the thing that I will say is like It surprised me right it surprised me that he dove on the toe hold Yeah, because he he had the weird combination of Dean Lister and Jeff Glover game You know, because he, he would train with Dean Lister and Jeff Glover. See these weird heel hooks and like toe holds and then he's like doing weird flexible things.

So anyways, you gotta watch out for that stuff. There is this element too. Where I kind of went over this with you real briefly one time in our whole life where. Okay, so, and Dean, you could probably understand this too. Okay, let's say we roll, right? And I, in my mind, I just know, I believe, like, you're just so much better than me. And we're rolling. I'm just trying to, you know.

But at the end of the day, I know, like, you're just so much better than me. me I'm 12 years old or me and you're you or whatever right let's say okay you tap me out Dean you tap me out real quick and then I'm like oh man cool and then I like act like I'm gonna walk away and then I jump on your back and we start rolling again right just kind of like half joking but we still go and roll or whatever you kind of concede a little bit where it's like okay I see what's going on yeah we're in a real training scenario we wouldn't do that right so D is gonna escalate yeah and he can escalate he can figure it but I'm saying what you did was an

escalation by the way yes but it's half joking yeah you see what's saying it's like yeah what's that over there and then you yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah exactly right so yeah i'm i'm i'm now see there's a there's a like a legitimate like you escalated if you just jump to someone's back even though you quote unquote are joking you still got their back and now you're trying to choke them what's funny is that's exactly what he said do you know that one and he was like you indicate i forget your words but you indicated that like like don't do that like we're not trying like oh you mean you mean you You did it to me for real?

Oh, yeah. Bro, a long time ago, I used to always do that kind of stuff to you. And then I was like, hey, bro, what did I say? Did I say something to you? That's weird. When we actually talked about it, you're like, you're, I forget your exact words, but you weren't down for that.

Like, it's not as tough. Look at that, dude. You found me, like you, call me out. Put it this way. I was surprised because it's not like you did anything. You know, it's not like you said, hey, don't, you know, don't do that or nothing. Because you never said anything like that. But when you indicate, oh, yeah, you're not down for that.

I understood. but you have to understand I wouldn't do that if we had a real competitive it was like you're so much better than me so yeah I'm gonna jump on your back and I still don't expect to get the better even if I jump on your back because you're so much it's like that attitude I think so that could have been what your son had in his mind a little bit too though so you say go for it yeah like I mean obviously Dean's not gonna do that Dean will do that wait over you're injured hell yeah no no I wouldn't do that there you go there's some

protocols there's some etiquette right sometimes gets violated sometimes it's grayers I may I great right right 12 should be nicer should have been a nicer uh nicer dad sorry about that kid um yeah we talked about grappling with strikes and all that and it goes through some of those things and then it gets into like advanced ground fighting techniques and north south escapes and north south like all those things chain attacks and how everything's connected so so leg attacks Dean Lister this section covers the advanced leg attacks these techniques are taught as a way to change the fighters position into a submission although the techniques are advanced they still present the same

amount of hazard as attacks learned at lower levels so we got some ideas behind that as well reading and opponents moves I mean this is just a thorough a very thorough book about combatives and they just did a good great job with it and a lot of the theories that are in here just cover What we know and they do it in a very professional way yeah in a very thorough way and and again and the last thing that it talks about is Competition and The spirit of competition the competition principles you know that he says this is important two things we'll finish with this

Combative's techniques are two dangerous for competition Although many techniques are too dangerous for live competition many benefits can be gained by competing even when using a limited set of techniques So there are some things that are too dangerous and then it says risks of competition outweigh the benefits Many programs have failed because there was no motivation to train Competitions are a useful tool to motivate both soldiers and unit leaders to emphasize combatives training So competition very important and And there you have it. Like I said, great document.

Outstanding job by the Army for moving in that direction. That's incredible, yeah. Yeah. And the Marine Corps has the McMap. Maybe we could go through that. The Marine Corps Marshal Arts program. I know special operations. Well, I know in the SEAL teams, we moved in that direction as well.

Around the same. Actually, I don't know time-wise, but we all end up in the same place. And you know the things. theory here is like you got to compete you got to learn you got to test you got to get better you know this you know the saying keep it real yeah you ever say that echo you ever say hey keep it real i say it time in time yes sir dean you ever say keep it real high school maybe i actually i actually say keep it real like almost and i kind of just throw it out there like if i'm you know someone goes hey what's up i'll be like oh you're keeping it real like that you know

kind of just whatever sure kind of a throw away comment sure but i was thinking about it it's actually a good attitude to have with combatives with fighting with life keep it real and that's what I think this does keep it real don't allow for the lies the lies you got to test you got to learn you got to adapt you got to improve then you got to retest and you can do that with fighting and you can do that with everything in life and that's how we become better fighters and that's how we become better people yeah so that's my recommendation man train get out there Anything else on combatives? Dean Lestch.

Combatives. Well, we're looking at that fine balance of training, something you can train, you can replicate over and over without getting really injured or hurt. With also including some realism as far as getting ready for the actual threat that you will face.

Such as, by the way, if you grapple on concrete all the time, it's going to suck. Now, you want to be aware, for instance, one time actually you fell for some reason on the concrete

with my hand and broke my hand because we have mats so actually I know how to fight if it on mats but I made a mistake I should open my hands at the right time these are things I have to keep in mind but then again you need you want to train on mats

right so so why not why not always train on concrete well because your knees will be jacked up you'll hurt your head you're going to break your elbow eventually but you want to be aware of that one thing it was it was one of sergeant knows him and all the guys in Puerto Rico when I was there for a few weeks

after the hurricanes working. We're just delivering water. That's all. One guy, and you probably know him, I don't know his name. But the story is the guy was an X tier one, whatever, I don't know, seal, I think seal, became a cop.

But he was ranked top 10 in the world with shooting, but where your hands are here and you reach, it's a quick draw. The guy's ranked top 10 in the world is at the quick draw where your hands are above. So he got stuck up like he was off duty, so I actually pulling a gun on him. He went like this.

Because he's so trained to do that, he still won, killed. He drew on the draw. I mean, the guy was, I mean, that's how fast this guy. He still, he's considered like, you're not supposed to draw. Someone is already, you know, it's considered dumb. This guy is too fast. So he actually went from here and still, you know, survived. And the guy, I don't think he made it.

The guy with the loaded gun trying to rob him. But the thing is, that training of him being so fast is good, but he didn't need to do this. He's trained so much as you shoot from here. He's still won, but that's a wasted movement. Think about that. So he still won. So that right there, that kind of training,

I think, for quick draw is good. But then again, don't put your hands up here. Maybe that actually played into the whole okay, he's compliant. Maybe it's actually good. But I'm saying, it's a waste,

they were saying how he still survived because he was trained. So that was just, and you know the guy, I don't know his name, but that was Sarge and all the guys and that, like, it's a tight community. So I think it's good to have that middle ground.

We're looking for the middle ground. You want to replicate things. You want to be able to do in a relatively safe environment, but always be prepared for what is going to happen potentially. That's why I like what the Army's It's a guideline. There's some flexibility there, I think. Of course, leg locks. You know the story about the Russian. Actually, the first time I learned leg locks before chokeholds and at this seminar. Nikolai Baturin. He's a Soviet champion of Samba. All the Tatar was there. Other Russians

were teaching and they were saying like the reason they prefer lake walk is because, you know, baking Russia and with my wife, she's very attractive. And they go to bar, a strange man, grabs her inappropriately. I'm very, very. upset. I break his arm. Now he goes to the vehicle gets Kalashnikov. He comes back and dead. I'm like, bro, I'm 18 or 12, man. But imagine the scenario. The guy grabs my girl very inappropriately. I break his leg.

Takes a long time to go to via to get Kalashnikov. It's true. There's always some kind of use for any. I'm like, it makes sense. I'm already with wife at home sleeping in bed. I was actually supposed to leg locks before chokes, believe or not. So yeah, it's all good to have the open mind. Well, but chokes are part of Sambao as well.

Combat Sambu. In USA, illegal because this is back in Steven Sagan, all days, they thought choke holds you die, you know? Like, you know, so in sports Sambo, sport Sambu, I think combat Sambu is not illegal, but back then it was. You can do straight arm lock. Not even, you can do Kimura in Sambu. Just straight arm lock and straight knee lock, right?

If you have an arm lock and I stand on my feet, it's illegal submission now. Restarting your feet. So that's an escape from a submission. Just stand on your feet. If I stand it, I have nothing but my feet are the only thing that's going to go around. Stop. All submissions are illegal.

So, yeah. Yeah. And at some point, they probably had some reason for that. Like, if I pick you up and now I could drop you on your head. Yeah. Yeah. So therefore, it's not going to work anymore. When we actually know, you let that evolve a little bit further.

And now I'm going to, when you start to pick me up, I'm going to grab your ankle and I'll hold you and keep you down. And so you need to let things evolve naturally. Yeah. Rules don't help that usually. I agree. I agree. Yeah, well, I won two-time national champion Osambo. It was like 19.

And the third time, I was going to get third. I was going to get three-time, but then I got in the finals. And the guy, he went, but he stood up. So it means they give up. He's a judo guy. Oh, you are walking. That's an illegal submission. And my feet would cross around the neck.

They go, it was almost choked with minus one point. So I got, he won minus one to zero. So I lost. So I took second place one year, unfortunately. But that's okay. Soamba's a two-time champ and then one-time. Yeah, Samba is a tough sport. It's good.

Yeah, no. Sambos. It's a Russian martial arts, very good. And the combat samba is really awesome, too. M&A with the jacket. Yeah. Straight up in a mime with the jacket. Yeah.

I mean, look at Fadour. Fadour. Fadour was a Samba champion. Yeah, combat samba. So was Khabib, you know, yeah. Would you say Kabe's more of a wrestler? Yeah, yeah, but he's done Judo Samba. But yeah, his style is very much,

he's very suited for Nui, yeah. You're smashing people. Smesh. Smesh, yeah. He's tough guy. Tough guy. All right. on awesome all right well appreciate everyone for listening thank you can I mention

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Yeah, you got like, for sure. And you feel awful. It's even worse than drinking, but, I mean, it's not worse than drinking, but I mean, it's not. It's horrible for you. Yeah, it's bad. And so that's what happened on deployment. It would be like that. And that's why I wouldn't, at Jock Fuel, you know, it was like, hey,

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I think your defense gets better when you wear. Because you're stuck more. Because you're stuck more. Your offense gets better when you don't have a ghee on because you have to do it really tight. You have to keep advancing more

with no ghee because people slip out easier. Yep. You should get a ghee that's made in America, not by slave labor, but made by hardworking Americans. That's my recommendation. OriginUSA.com. We got some hunt gear on the way. Actually, what's today?

That should be hitting my, though. I should be getting some, the first, like, production stuff coming soon. Chaco, can you make a key that's just like sandpaper? Like a sandpaper key? I want to get really good. Really good to escape these. Actually, no. Because you're not slipping out of that.

The origin geese are so comfortable. Yeah. They're so good. They're a different thing. Yeah, they are, we are spoiled now. Yeah, they are spoiled. My first jihit-to-geese were like, bloody, nasty. Bloody, just awful to wear.

Yeah. So, don't do that. Go to origin, USA.com. Get yourself some jeans, boots, hunt gear, jih Tijuana. We got it, we got you covered. Made in America, all of it. It's true. Good stuff.

To the bone. Speaking of apparel, Jock was a store as well. It's called Jock's store. Dean Lister has his own shirt. Yeah, yeah, we're going to have this. Is it out? Is it live? Yeah, it's been live.

Boy. Actually, we haven't really like... This one that says foot yet? Okay, so it's a takeoff on the good shirt. I shut up at the... You were like, what the... It started off with the good shirt, which had my head on it. And then the Echo shirt, which said, dang, which had your head on it, which I designed. And then who designed your shirt?

Dean? Well, I came up just... I did it in 20 minutes, just as a joke. I wore it to the pocket. And he was like, oh, I even liked it. It looked good. Yeah, it's like, hey, man. So, if you don't know, Dean Lissor.

is notorious and famous for changing the realm of Jiu-Jitsu by attacking the feet and the legs and the knees and so he made a shirt with his head on it we made a shirt with his head on it and instead of saying good this is foot yeah it actually came out really really good yeah also yeah some new some new stuff on there just one equals freedom standard issue standard issue many color ways look at you know what they're I feel like I'm talking to Pete Roberts over here talking about color ways and whatnot. Hey, you taught me it. Did I actually teach you that?

You knew that. It sounded familiar, but you're the one who said color ways and explained it. I was like, okay. I might have heard it before. Colorways. I've never used it till just now. That's really dipping your toes into the fashion industry. When you start saying color ways, it's true.

But color ways, I think, can be used to describe like, like, cars or like, you know, anything. Anything that could be made in multiple colors, I believe in the industry, they use the term colorways. Like sneakers, sneakers. I think that's how I know it from sneakers. Someone's talking to a sneaker professional who was like, yeah, we got to offer these different colorways. And I said, okay. Little combos of colors. There you go.

Yeah. Well, there you go. We got color ways. But anyway, yes, we call it the standard issue. Discipline equals freedom shirt. It's good. It's new. I didn't blow it up yet.

But you know, all right. So you can check that out. Also, we got the shirt locker, which is a subscription situation, if you didn't know, you know, new designs. Every month you get a new shirt, a new design, a little bit more creative. That's what I'm not at right now. You haven't gotten very creative on your creative description. No, no, creative yet.

You know why? Because all the creativity goes into the designs. You see what I'm saying? Not the descriptions of the design. It'd be like a meta description. See what you're saying. Either way, they're good. Great feedback on that also check that out at jocco store.com.

All right. Thanks everybody. Subscribe to the podcast. Go to jaco underground.com. Here's some underground podcasts. Check out YouTube where I'm the assistant director. One of the best, apparently, one of the best out there, you know, the best assistant director. Just keeping echo Charles tight on stuff. Psychological warfare.

Flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer making cool stuff to hang on your walls. I've written a bunch of books. Read them if you want. Eshlamfront.com. Leadership consultancy. That's what we do. We solve problems through leadership.

So if you want help inside your organization, go to Escalonfront.com for details. Next up is Atlanta, October 12th to the 14th, the muster. It's going to sell out. They all do. So we'll see you there. Also, we have an online training academy. Just like Jiu-Jitsu, you're not going to get good at fighting in one day or one week.

You've got to do it all the time. That's why we made the Academy, Extreme Ownership Academy, Extreme Ownership. dot com come and learn how to lead and live that's what it's going to do for you and if you want to help out service members active and retired their families gold star families check out mark lee's mom mama lee she's got a charity organization it does outstanding work supporting our warriors yep and if you want to help her out or you want to get involved go to america's mighty warriors dot org also check out micah micah fink he's got heroes and horses Just got out of the field, I think, today.

A bunch of dudes been out in the field for 41 days, riding horses, sitting in cold water, eating raw meat. Just getting back, back to it. And so check that one out. And if you want to check out with Dean. Dean's on the gram, on the Instagram. He's at Dean Lister, BJJ. That's right.

I cannot be held accountable for some of the things that he posts. I'd like to cross some drama You go to some dark places in weird times So if you wake up in the morning And there's posts from Dean Lister at 3 o'clock in the morning Hey What's that? Be advised

Be advised It's random You might be offended You might be disgusted You might be disgusted Yeah Man he sent me one the other day Was that a post from Instagram

The guy getting cut in the neck? Oh that was sent It was sent to me Yeah I mean it was like A horrible scene of a guy. It looks like your typical kind of couple drunk dude, like three or four drunk guys,

you know, gonna fight another three or four drunk guys and they're kind of talking smack to each other. And then one of the guys like pulls out a knife in kind of that kind of like way, like, oh, I've got a knife out, you better back off. And the other guy sort of like,

well, you wouldn't do anything anyways. And it just sort of seems like this, kind of innocent. It's crazy. I mean, as innocent as it could be pulling out a knife. It was that innocent. That's all.

And I'm saying it didn't look like the intent. was we're about to murder somebody. And the one dude that doesn't have a knife comes kind of like walking over like oh what are you going to do cut me like with that kind of look on his face but but not expecting anything to happen and in a millisecond in a millisecond

the dude like swings at him with the knife and cuts his throat and the dude is dead in 10 seconds he passes out in five seconds and he's probably dead another so another reason don't get in street fights don't get in street fights they're stupid

You get stabbed in the neck, you could break your hand. Whatever. There's anything in between. So don't do that. But if you want to check out Dean Lister on Instagram, there he is, Dean Lister, BJJ, on the Twitter, on the gram, on Facebook. I'm on there as well. Echo's on there. Echo's at Echo, Echolts.

I'm at Jocko. Well, like. Watch out for the algorithm, by the way. Because I think I'm going to grab you, it's going to waste an hour of your day. You're going to take an hour from you. Imagine that. A monster that came in every day and took an hour from you or two hours from you. You can't get it back.

That's the algorithm monster. It's going to get you. So that's it. Thanks to all the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines who continue to find ways to fight better in every respect. Thanks again to Matt Larson for driving this initiative in the Army. I know there's, like I said, I know I'm sure there's a bunch of other people that helped out. I know that he was leading the charge. So salute to him and the rest of the military personnel that are out there putting these skills to the test on the battlefields.

Thanks for what you do. Also, thanks to police and law. enforcement do what you can to get out there and train you need it we need it also firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service all the first responders thank you for keeping us safe here in our own country and everyone out there go train train whatever you can train wrestling train boxing, jujitsu, moitai, train judo and sombo, and train with guns and knives and bow and arrow and test and learn and adjust and get better and it will make you better in every aspect of life.

Just go train. And until next time, this is Dean and Echo and Jocko. Out.