Jocko Podcast - 422: How to Effectively Interrogate Someone

Episode Date: January 24, 2024

>Join Jocko Underground<How to effectively interrogate someone. From the Army's FM34-52: Intelligence Interrogation.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 422 with Echo Charles and me. Jocko, Good evening. So you've heard me talk about asking earnest questions. The purpose of doing that is to try and understand what someone else is thinking without putting them into a defensive mind, without making them suspicious, without flaring up their ego. A bunch of things going on. Generally speaking, asking earnest questions is an indirect approach of trying to understand other people's ideas. It's an open-minded approach.

It's not like a scam. It's not a little trick. If you do it correctly, it shouldn't cause someone to become defensive. In fact, if you do it correctly, the opposite should happen. Good earnest questions that you ask other people should open up their minds. to open up their their mentality to where they actually want to explain their viewpoint so you can better understand them. That's what an earnest question should do. Asking earnest questions is not easy.

Some people screw it up. If you aren't careful, your questions can become leading questions. They can become accusatory questions. They can even become blaming questions. Why did you do that, right? Yeah. So I was thinking about the various approaches that you utilize. And trust me, I've tried to help a lot of people with this.

And one of the things that I thought about when I thought about questioning was questions that are used in a particular environment. And that is the environment of interrogation. So in order to get better at asking questions, I wanted to look at some interrogation methods. I know that when I got trained, actually, I never trained. as an interrogator other than like real rudimentary kind of what they call battlefield interrogation which is not remotely a trained interrogator probably I learned more from going through our survival evasion resistance and escape school where they teach you the various methods that you're going to be interrogated that's Sear School Sears School yep commonly

referred to as Seer School. Sure. Chilly it's cold cold that's where you it's you know it's down here in Southern California but you know the mountains up by Julian yeah like going up to that area. Yeah, yeah. It's where we were at. It was chilly in wintertime. Yeah. And that's part of the,

part of the training. Yeah, that's part of the training. Wait, so what he, sorry to interrupt, what, so you just said you're not a trained interrogator,

but you just learned the basic stuff of, like what? Like, what's, what's some basic interrogation? Well, that's what we're about to get into. Oh. So what we're about to dive into is we're about to dive into the Army's FM 34-TAC-52 intelligence interrogation.

And I think it's just a good framework to expand our knowledge in the field of asking questions, make sure that when you're asking questions, they're not accusatory questions, they're not blaming questions, they're not leading questions. Make sure that we're building trust and we're building relationships with people instead of undermining trust and undermining relationships. And I think you're going to see that this is just, this is just a good familiarity that's going to help us interacting with other people and give us some things to think about when we're interacting with other people. Here's what I did notice about you with your asking earnest questions is your tone. And obviously I can't read your mind even though I do believe

that you're asking these questions for these reasons that you just said. But as far as the presentation goes, it's like tone is such a massive thing, like how you say these things. Because really technically you can say the same exact words under two different circumstances and they mean completely different things. What are they going to land different? Like, you know, people will be like, oh, like, what was your thought? Like, let's say you did something. And I, and I'm going to ask a question about it, right? Ernest versus freaking condescending or something like this. If I say the words, what was your thought processes?

Two ways I could say that. Like, what was your thought process of that? Like, you're just so dumb, you know, so condescending. Or it would be like, oh, you know, what was your, what was your thought process on that, on that one right there. Yes. Yeah, you had to add a little bit. You couldn't say the exact same words. You probably could, but we'd have to work on it a little bit.

Sure. Like, if I was, it'd be like, like, hey, well, what was your process? What was your thought process on that? Like that's, that's, right. What you gotta do is you gotta put yourself, this is, this is why it's important that it's not a trick.

Because even if I'm like, well, Jock was said to ask earnest questions, and I don't know what the hell Ech-Ech-O-S-Quest, but since Jocco said, ask earnest questions, I'm just gonna try and ask earnest questions. Right. You're gonna see through that. Most likely you're gonna see through that.

I think so too. But if I truly like, hey, what was your thought process when you did that? See what I'm saying? Like that's like I really want to know. Yep. Hey, what was your, as opposed to I think you're an idiot?

What was your thought process? Like that's, yeah. It's just a subtle difference. Bro, so I'll do that with my kids where. So I added and I remember a couple times, there's more, both times was with my daughter, where I wouldn't, I wouldn't just say, what was your thought process? I'd be like, hey, were you thinking? I would go like one step further and try to imagine.

What was this 10 year old girl thinking under these circumstances? What would be like not even necessarily a bad thought like what would be a logical thing that a 10 year old would think That isn't terrible. You know so like hey what was your thought was it this? Did you think that you're just gonna do this and then like hey, you know no harm no foul kind of a thing? kind of a thing. So you kind of like throw in there like hey, I kind of understand. I think I understand what you were thinking and But let's you know let's revisit it and let's kind of you know improve it kind of a thing kind of a tone you know and bro It worked perfectly. Yeah, like she didn't feel like she was in trouble. She was like oh just you know just exposing everything and let's kind of you know just exposing everything. I'm you know, you know, Kind of a thing. Like, cool.

So you have a little bit of methodology, right? So we'll get into this book right here. This is a FM, like I said, FM 3452 intelligence interrogation from that department of the headquarters department of the army. This is actually from 1992, this copy that I got right here. And it's got a whole, it's got a bunch of sections. We're not going through the whole thing, obviously. Because it starts off, oftentimes the army does this. They're going to take you like from ground zero.

almost like you don't even speak the English language and they're going to teach you something. They don't do that, but they go through the military, like the first chapter's military intelligence missions and intelligence preparation in the battlefield. So like really war fighting, war fighting doctrine, the intelligence cycle, intelligence disciplines, a bunch of various definitions,

articles of the Geneva Convention. So there's a lot of stuff. Look, if we were going to have a military interrogation, we'd go through it all. The next section is about composition and structure. And this isn't like composition and structure of sentences or questions. This is about the tactical operation center and what it looks like at the division and what it looks like at the core level and what it looks at the echelon above course. So there's a bunch of a bunch of kind of administrative information.

And then you get into the interrogation process. It starts off with collection priority. So what are you looking for? It actually goes through, you know, if you want to find out the location of the enemy. You want to find out what? So it gives you what the priority is. are screening, which is just like an administrative process, because the Army has a process for everything.

The Army don't play around. So they've got a process like, you capture someone. Here's what you do with them. Here's the first form that they fill. Here's how you label this. So it goes through that whole thing. And the planning and preparation is really when it's talking about the planning and preparation, it's the logistics of interrogation, like chairs in the room.

You know, this is what the Army does. you know, if you have this person, you need this size desk and this type of notebook, like it's going to give you the details. They live nothing to chance. And then we get into the approach phase, and that's what we're going to get into, which we'll get into the approach phase, the questioning phase, and the termination phase. That's kind of what we're going to cover today. Important couple things here that it starts off.

So now we're going to jump into it. The sources background. What's the source's age and level of mills? military or civilian experience. Hey, isn't it good if you're going to talk to someone? You're going to ask someone some questions that you know a little bit of background about them. And the source is the person in this case. Yeah.

They use a couple different terms. I'll call them out as we get to. But yeah, the source in this situation is the person that's giving you information. The objective, the interrogation, how much time is available. So it's giving you some basic stuff. And then the interrogator himself, what abilities does he have that can be brought in a place? So now we're talking about you. What do you have?

What weaknesses do you have? So you got to kind of know yourself. It goes through that. Interrogator's question, question guards about the sources, time permitting, as part of the preparation. It's just trying to help you figure out. You want to know about as much about a person as you can before you start drilling them with questions. So this is true.

If I'm going to go talk to an employee that I don't really know very well and he's one of your employees, I might go, hey, echo, what's their temperament like? How long have they been here for? Do they, are they good at their job? Do they show up late? Like, I want to get some familiarity so I know what I'm dealing with. And that's an important part of sort of setting the stage. And you, goes through some other,

EPWs is a term that they used to call that they use in this book. It's enemy prisoner of war. Or they say detainee. So one of those two. All right, now we're going to get to sort of the brass tax of it. It starts off with the approach. phase. At the initial contact, a business-like relationship should be maintained. As the EPW or detainee assumes a cooperative attitude, a more relaxed atmosphere may be advantageous. The

interrogator must carefully determine which of the various approaches approach techniques to employ. Regardless of the type of EPW or detainee and his outward personality, he does possess weaknesses, which, if recognized by an interrogator, can be exploited. These weaknesses are manifested in personality traits such as speech mannerisms facial expressions physical movements excessive perspiration and other overt indications that may vary from EPW to detainee or detainee. So you got to pay attention to what you're dealing with out of the gate and very good point is being professional like a business like when you meet someone

You ever had somebody or you ever seen somebody tell a joke at a bad time? Yes, sir. I have. It's awkward. Have you ever watched The Office? Yeah. There's a lot of scenes like where Michael Scott's telling jokes and that no one is in the mood for jokes. Yes, sir.

That's all this. One of the worst ones I've seen and this is why I have a rule. I have a rule if you're presenting, do not put jokes on slides. So if you got a PowerPoint presentation, don't put any jokes on them. there because you don't know what's going on in the room you don't know what that room's going to feel like you know what the attitude's going to be in there so I was traveling the world with a four-star general who is going to a bunch of different out out stations special operations outstations and we went into one and it was in Africa

and it was in Djibouti Africa and they had taken a map of Djibouti and superimposed it over a map of someone's ass. Oh yeah, yeah. And it said, welcome to Da booty. Sure. This general was not, he wasn't, he was very PG rated. As a matter of fact, he might as, he might as, might very well have been G rated. Yeah.

He didn't find this funny. No. And these guys couldn't, they didn't pick up on it quick. Mm. And by the time they picked up on it, it was too late because the slide was already up there. Like they started to realize that he was a more serious guy and there wasn't going to be a funny, funny joke joke situation. Then click to the slide and it says da booty and it was not good. So let's always begin with professionalism.

Not being a jerk, not being cold, but just begin with professionalism. Just a business like, hey, good to meet you or whatever when you're dealing with another human being. Going forward from a psychological standpoint the interrogator must be cognizant of the following behaviors people tend to talk especially after harrowing experiences show deference when confronted by superior authority rationalize acts about which they feel guilty fail to apply or remember lessons they may have been taught regarding security if confronted with a disorganized or strange situation They're giving you all these little hints, right? You get someone that's just something crazy just happened.

There's a chance they want to talk about it. There's also a chance that they don't. You get people that kind of turn inward. And also just showing authority, superior authority can kind of get people to comply. See, that's one of the tough things about police officers is 99% of the, time when they tell somebody to do something from that position of authority, they kind of bark those orders at somebody, people listen to them. It's the 1% of the time that someone doesn't listen, they can't escalate anymore. They don't know what to do.

Continuing on, people generally cooperate with those who have control over them. Next, attach less importance to a topic about which the interrogator demonstrates identical or related experience or knowledge. So if you act like you already know it or you act like you're familiar with it, people be kind of more down to talk about it. Appreciate flattery and exoneration from guilt. That's a big one right there, right? It's kind of like you just talked about with your daughter.

You're like, oh, you didn't do anything wrong, but, you know, I can see, hey, I can see where this happens. Resent having someone or something they respect belittled, especially by someone they dislike. Again, just important things. to keep in mind. So if you belittle something that they care about, you're going to be not getting a good relationship going with them. Respond to kindness and understanding during trying circumstances.

That makes sense. Be nice to people. Cooperate readily when given material rewards such as extra food or luxury items for their personal comfort. Okay. Again, being nice to people goes a long way. Treating people with respect goes a long way. That's like when you're dealing with a valet dude.

you know, or a waitress or a hostess. And you just be nice to them and they'll be nice to you, which means you might get a table before this other person that came in and acted like an asshole. Yeah, it's true. I used to be a ballet, by the way. Did you? Yes, sir.

Aloha Tower. No, in Honolulu. Yeah, check. Did you run? Yeah, you're going to run. How long would it take to get a car? I don't know, two minutes. Okay, it's not.

Give a take. Yeah, yeah. It's good. Good gig, for sure. What's the nicest car you ever valeted? Oh, that I can remember. Probably those Mercedes cars. Yeah.

That is the thing. No, lambos or anything like this? No. No, not that I can. No, I would have remembered that. But yeah, no, probably Mercedes vans. You get a lot of those for sure. A lot of people have lambos in Hawaii?

No. It's very rare. Or even like super nice cars? Super cars. Well, like these exotic type cars, very rare. Honolulu. There's a few here and there for sure. But have you ever been to Malibu, California?

Yeah. There's like really nice cars everywhere. Yeah. It's kind of, it fits the stereotype of what you kind of think. Yeah. I was with my son. We were surfing up there. He was like 10 or whatever.

And we'd just like go to the gas station for a little while because McLaren's are coming in. Lamborghinis are coming in. Yeah. It's pretty. I did notice that, yeah. I've been up there a few times. Actually, one was for that. I think you might have been there.

It was like the black belt surf paddle out, whatever. I didn't go. Like Hickson and stuff. I went up there. I did some video. That's where I lost my drone. My first drone from crash did in the water. He was gone forever.

Yeah, it was bad. Yeah, Malibu. Hell yeah. Check. But if you're nice to the valet dude, he's probably going to take care of you a little bit more. Yes, sir. That's a little thing, just a little note.

Yeah. Just a little note. And you know what? You're being a better human being. Next, Cooperate. Oh, interrogators do not run an approach by following a set pattern or routine. Each interrogation is different,

but all interrogation approaches have the following things in common. They establish and maintain control over the source and interrogation, establish and maintain rapport between the interrogator and the source, manipulate the sources of most. and weaknesses to gain his willing cooperation. The only one that I kind of, I think when it says establish and maintain control over the source and the interrogation, I think sometimes at least showing that person that they have some control is a good way to get people to talk more. Yeah. Right?

Yeah, pretty much in the, you know, use the word cooperation where that that word kind of goes deep as far as like how it feels. So you know how like, you know, you watched your crime shows and all the stuff. They show the footage of the interrogation. When the guy's like all night, I remember thinking. I like watching those things. Yeah, I like watching the, just for this very reason, you ever watch the, never mind crime shows? I'm talking like, well, I guess maybe you're talking about, you're talking about actual interrogations.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Real interrogation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I always thought that when the guy is so nice to the guy, like getting them coffee and lighting and saying, like being

nice saying, hey, we're doing this together. I'm not, it's not me against you, it's me with you. Kind of in the feel. I remember thinking, bro, if I was a criminal, I'd kind of enjoy that part of it. I might even freaking give up all the goods just because, not consciously, but I'm just saying, I can see how that would work. Because a lot

of times, like a criminal, like, if you're on the run, and this is just what I heard because I'm not a criminal, but when you're on the run, that stress like gets to you, so there's, I guess, a part of a criminal that's kind of relieved that they got caught sometimes. So, man, if you're if you get caught and you're getting interrogate and the guy's cool about it at least you can be like yeah man freaking i've been feeling stress it's like a little

session you see what i'm saying so yeah if you're like cooperating with them i can see how that could work man that would work on me i'll tell you that so they call that soft sell yeah yeah soft selling and when i went through serious school the soft sell got me more than the hard cell did yeah like a while them slapped me around and all that i just was like more firm and not talking yeah but when they caught me off god like the first time that someone was nice to me i was like oh and it's not like i gave up information, but what do they do? They get you to, they get you to like eat something. And then they got you on video that they're feeding, you know, so you're taking

perfect care of them. And, you know, they say, oh, is there anything we can do for you? And you're like, if you say, yes, you can do this. And then you're giving them an opportunity to turn that into propaganda. So you say, no, I'm okay. And then, but you said it in kind of nice way. And they said it a nice way. So it sounds like they're taking it.

So that, that was definitely harder to deal with. It's counterintuitive. Because when someone's nice to you, you're nice to them. And that's just what they're taking advantage of, and that's what they're saying right here. Yeah, yeah. So you got to watch out for that. Yeah, fully.

It goes on to say the source may or may not be aware he is providing the interrogator with information about enemy forces. Some approaches may be complete when the source begins to answer questions. Others may have to be constantly maintained or reinforced throughout the interrogation. The techniques used in an approach can best be defined as a series of events, It's not just verbal conversation between the interrogator and source. The exploitation of the source's emotion can be harsh or gentle in application. Some useful techniques used by interrogators are hand and body movements, actual physical contact,

such as a hand on the shoulder for reassurance. And then my personal favorite, silence. It goes through to talk about stern posture in the stern. You can use either stern or sympathetic. Stern, the interrogator keeps the EPW or detainee at attention. The aim is to make the EPW or detainee keenly aware of his helpless and inferior status. Interrogators use this posture with officers, NTOs, and security conscious enlisted men. In sympathetic posture, the interrogator addresses the EPW in a friendly fashion, striving to put him at ease.

The posture is commonly used in interrogating an older, younger EPWs. So that's what we're talking about. What I found is when they use these two kind of, it's classic good cop, bad cop, right? The guy comes in and is a jerk to you. They usually do bad cop first. Oh yeah,

so the good cop is kind of like an element of relief. Yeah, total element of relief. That's what feels good. Frightened persons, regardless of rank, will invariably talk in order to relieve tension once they hear a sympathetic voice in their own tongue.

So there you go. That's what you just said. There are many variations of these basic postures. Goes into some of those Interrogator must not waste time in pointless discussions Or make promises he can't keep for example the interrogators granting political asylum and it goes in this whole thing why you can't do that and this is an interesting thing you're talking about your daughter earlier Fake promises that if you are not if you make fake promises as a parent You just you're doing a terrible job. You're doing a terrible job if you make a promise you need to keep that promise even if it's bad

Like, you know, like, you know, like a threat, you know, like that kind of stuff. Like, hey, I probably will get beat. Here's the thing. Don't make a threat that you're not going to back up. Yeah. Which sucks when you're a parent. Yeah. Because you're like, because you know, like we're supposed to go to whatever jihitsu this afternoon.

We're supposed to go surfing. You're like, if you don't do this right now, we're not going surfing. Yeah. And then they don't do it. And then you can't go surfing. No, you're going to screw yourself a little bit. No. So you never make threats.

Yeah. You know, only threaten things that you don't want to do anyways. This is interesting, right? Under no circumstances will the interrogator betray surprise at anything that EPW might say? This is a good one to have. This is a good one to have. Not acting surprised when people tell you things is like such a powerful thing, especially when they're trying to tell you something to shock you.

When they're trying to catch you, they're trying to get you. And you got, yeah, roger that. Or you just nod your head. many EPWs will talk freely if they feel the information they are discussing is already known to the interrogator. That's not the reason that same. So what they're saying is if you start telling me something and I just act like I'm not surprised like, yeah. Yeah, of course you were in this position and you had this many guys with you. If I act like it's no big deal, you'll kind of keep talking.

But if I'm like, wait, what? Yeah. Then I, then you go, oh, I'm giving away information. Yeah. And you kind of alienate the, like him out of the relationship, you know, because. than like that cooperative thing I was talking about, that feeling, like you're kind of like, I guess for lack of better term,

bonding with the guy on a certain level. And you start seeing this outlandish stuff, that's, you know, you lose them a little bit. So you kind of jam up their relationship. But from a leadership perspective, when things are getting a little bit wild and you're just like, yeah, Roger. Yeah.

And your main thing is just to nod your head and say, Roger that. That is so much better than bad news coming in. And you go, oh, or one of those reactions, you got to be kidding. Like any of those things, they all suck. They're all bad. Getting control of your emotions and not overreacting when you hear something is a powerful skill. That can't be underestimated at all.

The interrogator encourages any behavior that deepens rapport and increases the flow of communication. At the same time, the interrogator must discourage any behavior that has the opposite effect. So we want to have a conversation. That's what we're doing. It goes into a thing here about how to develop rapport. Rappore must be maintained throughout the interrogation, not only in the approach phase. Again, what's interesting about this is I say, look, if I'm going to interact with another person, I want to improve our relationship. Like, if I have to interact with you and you're my peer or you're my supporting or you're my superior, by the end of our interaction, I want our relationship to be stronger.

So that's what we're doing with this rapport. So when I'm doing something to you that's making our relationship worse, it's a problem. I don't want to be doing that thing. Now some people might are probably thinking right now like, oh, you never would tell Echo that doesn't make sense? Well, what I say if you present your plan to me and I say that doesn't make sense, what just happened to our relationship to go up or down? Went down a little bit. If I said, hey, Echo, I'm not sure I fully understand this. Can you explain this to me and just let me understand the details here?

Did our relationship to get better or worse? Better. Got a little bit better. I'm curious about what you, your plan. I want to know more about it. And I'm essentially doing the same thing. Yeah, asking the exact same thing. So we want to develop rapport.

Depending on the situation and requests, the source may have made. An interrogator can also use the following to develop rapport. Offer realistic incentives such as immediate comfort items like coffee or cigarette. A short-term meal or short-term like a meal a shower or send a letter home a long-term Repatriation political asylum You can also this is an interesting one Fane experience similar to those of the source It's a good one. Oh yeah, I know

Yeah, it's freezing out there right now, isn't it? You know, it's like oh yeah, yeah, we're kind of the same What kind of bros you've watched first blood Affirmative yes So they got this all backwards in first blood. What part? Well, the whole reason the movie happens because John Rambo's rolling in, they come in and they just start beating them verbally.

The whole deal, not bonding with them at all. In fact, they didn't give them a shower. They put them in a room and hosed them down with cold water and you know it was cold over Seattle or wherever they were. Spokane, I believe. Yeah. Okay. All right.

All right. Show concern for the source through use of voice vitality and body length. language help the source rationalize his guilt that's an interesting one kind of like again I'm not trying to say you're interrogating your daughter right when you're like oh yeah you know I can see where that happened yeah fully it's a good way to do it help them rationalize their guilt show kindness and understanding toward the source's predicament that's a good one exonerate the source from guilt this really isn't your fault but what happened

flatter the source isn't it isn't it isn't it interesting that flattery is like the cheapest little easiest thing, but it actually works. Yeah. It is, right? It's like so cheap. How much does it cost to say like, oh, I like the way you handled that or whatever. Yeah. So you've been kind of, you know, that one that.

I like the way you handled that. That's a little bit more advanced flattery, to be honest with you. And it's way more effective. Talk to me. I've probably been thinking about it. Because like, what's the real superficial flattery is like the obvious compliment. you know, like, hey, like, freaking nice shirt or, you know, freaking, hey, you're looking strong and whatever, you know, like that kind of stuff, like superficial stuff.

But when you, and I got note of this like a long time ago, if you flatter someone's, like, decision making, it's way better because it's more like, it's less obvious. It takes more caring kind of a thing, more attention, you know, kind of a thing. You know, you manipulated. No, bro, whatever. But, but yeah, so when you're like, hey, I like the way you handled that, that's not like, you know, Like if someone's like, oh, looking, I don't know, strong, looking buff or whatever, you're like, yeah, cool, you know. But if you say, I like the way you handled that, that means you're paying attention to the way I did stuff, you know, which is way deeper, way more effective.

A little bit of flattery. A little bit of deep flattery coming from, go, Charles. Moving on a little bit. After having established control and rapport, the interrogator continually assesses the source to see if the approaches. And later the questioning techniques chosen in the planning and preparation phase will indeed work Approaches chosen in planning and preparation are tentative and based on sometimes scanty information available from documents, cards, and personal observation. So we're trying to figure out how to approach this person, but it may change. It may change.

This may lead the interrogated to select approaches, which may be totally incorrect for obtaining this source is willing cooperation, thus careful assessment of the source is critical to avoid wasting valuable time in the approach phase. The questions can be mixed or separate. If, for example, the interrogator has tentatively chosen a love of comrades approach, he should ask the source questions like, how did you get along with your fellow squad members? If the source answers, they were all very close and worked well as a team, the interrogator can use this approach and be reasonably sure of its success.

However, if the source answers, they all hated my guts and I couldn't stand any of them, the interrogators should quickly abandon that approach and ask some non-partinent questions to give himself time to work out a new approach. So keep an open mind on your approach as you're communicating. And it talks about these transitions, how you've got to transition smoothly and logically to guide the conversation. And especially if you have to go from one approach to another, poking and hoping. in the approach may alert the prisoner to ploys and will make the job more difficult.

Isn't it interesting that you can just kind of put someone at ease and they'll talk? You know, at Eshalam Front, we'll go into a company and they're almost always surprised when we go and talk to the front line troops what we find out. Like we'll go back to the headshed and say, oh, you know, here's a problem with your manufacturing line. And they'll be like, who told you that? We'll like, oh, you know, we won't give names or whatever, but we'll say, oh, you know, people at this shift talk to talk us through what the shortfalls were.

They can't believe, or never mind the manufacturing, they'll be like, oh, this person doesn't get along with this person and this, this person's not aligned with that. Like everybody knows. And how do you do that? Oh, you just go and say, hey, how's it going? You start talking to them. They want to talk about what's happening at their work

where they work eight to 10 hours a day. Yeah. Someone comes in and it's truly curious. They're like, oh, I got a, I got a whole drama going on. Yeah. You ever get when somebody tells you about a movie and then they got to tell you the whole plot and everything? Yeah, sometimes. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah, the idea of being listened to, like, is very, seems very compelling, you know, where, especially if you even get an inkling just in life that, like, people just don't understand my position, what I'm doing, what I'm feeling. How much I know. How much I know? The whole deal, man. And someone's going to come in and actually listen, they care off. I will tell it.

Yeah. So that makes sense. Yeah, no, it's the way it works. Fast forward a little bit here. Recognize the breaking point. Every source has a breaking point. But an interrogator never knows what it is until it's been reached. There are, however, some good indicators the source is near his breaking point or has already reached it.

For example, if during the approach the source leans forward with his facial expressions indicating an interest in the proposal or is more hesitant in his argument, he's probably nearing his breaking point. The interrogator must be alert to recognize these signs. Paying attention to what the other person's doing. Once the interrogator determines the source is breaking, he should interject a question pertinent to the objective of the interrogation if the source answers it the interrogator can now move into the questioning phase if the source does not answer or box it answering it the interrogator must realize the source was not as close to the breaking point as he thought in this case the interrogator must continue with his approach or switch to an alternate approach or questioning technique and continue to work until he feels the source is near

its breaking point this is something you get that you'd see in those videos those police videos when they were doing the interrogation and like at a certain point They just, they're done and they're just like explain the whole deal. Yeah. The whole deal comes out. At this point, it's important to note the amount of time spent with a particular source depends on several factors. The battlefield situation expediency with which the supported commanders

requirements need to be answered and the source is willing to talk. So it could take an hour, 20 minutes, three days, 10 days, you know. Approach combinations with the exception of the direct approach, no other approach is effective by itself. And this is one thing that's very interesting about this whole thing is the whole, it talks about the direct approach being like, especially when someone's a little bit frazzled, the best approach, which is interesting because I always talk about the indirect approach. but I think the whole idea of people being frazzled and in dynamic situations, they're mentally set to just get asked what's happening and talk. Interrogators use different approach techniques or combine them into cohesive logical technique. Smooth transitions, security or sincerity, logic, and conviction almost always make a strategy work.

The lack of will undoubtedly looms. who dooms it to failure. Some examples of combinations are direct approach, futility, and then incentive. Direct futility, then love of comrades. Direct fear up, mild, then insensitive. So they're giving you approaches and how you can take these approaches and we'll get to what these are. Okay, so we got direct incentive, emotional, increased fear up, and then pride. ego the first one is direct approach the interrogator asked direct questions

directly related to information sought making no effort to conceal the interrogation's purpose the direct approach always the first to be attempted is used on EPWs or detainees who the interrogator believes will cooperate so you think the person's gonna cooperate you can go ahead and just start firing away on them the direct approach is simple to use and it's possible to obtain the maximum amount of information in the minimum amount of time it is frequently employed at lower echelons when the tactical situation precludes selecting other techniques and where the EPWs or detainees mental state is one of confusion and extreme shock so that that's i think why it makes

sense you've got someone that's kind of a junior person their their mental state is kind of disrupted they're from the lower echelons of the organization you go and you're like they know what's going on Like the way the world is, like you've just been captured. You're cuffed. You've had a bag over your head for 20 minutes. Now you're in a room. A guy pulls the bag off your head. If you're not a straight jihadist, you're ready to talk.

You know what I mean? You're like, yo, I'll tell you what's up. If you're a jihadist, that person's not going to talk. So direct questions are not. It doesn't matter. They're not going to say anything. The direct approach is most effective. Statistics show in World War II, it was 90% effective.

In Vietnam and operations, urgent fury just cause and desert storm. 95% effective. I haven't seen that kind of effectiveness. Like we would do what we called Battlefield interrogation, which is you capture someone, you're going to ask them questions right now. Where are the weapons? It's pretty good,

but it's not great. The jihadists were a little bit, you could tell the jihadists, they wouldn't say anything. Like a true, like, jihadist, like a foreign fighter, they weren't saying shit. So, yeah, you capture someone that's just low

Echelon not really in the game. You ask them a couple of other. They're ready to tell you what's going. What's happening? What's happening? So that's the first one, direct approach. Again, I think if you're talking about normal interaction with other human beings, direct approach, you need to use caution. Matter of fact, I would say you don't use direct approach.

You escalate toward the direct approach over time. And I think you'll find that seldom will you make it all the way to the direct approach. Next one is incentive approach. The incentive approach is based on the application of inferred discomfort upon the EPW who lacks willpower. The EPW may display fondness for certain luxury items such as candy, fruit, or cigarettes. This fondness provides the interrogator with a positive means of rewarding the EPW for cooperation and truthfulness as he may give or withhold such comfort items. at his discretion, cost must be employed.

And it just goes to talk about that you can't, talks about the Geneva Convention. Like you can't infringe on the rights that they have. And there's only so much you can do to make them uncomfortable. So that's that. The EPW might be tempted to provide false or inaccurate. This is one of the warnings about it.

False or inaccurate information to gain a desired luxury item. So I'll give you a cigarette. If you tell me this, they're going to tell you something. And that's ultimately when you talk about torture. is torture's ineffective because people will just say whatever they got to say to get it to stop and so what they find over time is that torture doesn't really work Here's the emotional approach through EPW observation the interrogator can often identify dominant emotions which motivate the motivating emotions might be greed

love hate revenge or others the interrogator the interrogator employs verbal and emotional ruses in applying pressure to the EPW's dominant emotions. For example, this technique can be used on the EPW who has a great love for his unit and fellow soldiers. The interrogator may take advantage of this fully by telling the EPW that by providing pertinent information, he may shorten the war or battle in progress and save many of his comrades' lives. But his refusal to talk might cause their deaths. This places the burden on the EPW or detainee and may motivate him to seek relief through cooperation. If you understand the emotions of the person you're talking to, you can do a better job of

communicating with them and getting them to communicate back to you. Like, what do they care about? Emotional love approach. This approach usually involves some incentives such as communication with the source's family or a quicker end to the war to save his comrades' lives. A good interrogator will usually orchestrate some futility. with an emotional love approach to hasten the sources reaching the breaking point. The other end of the spectrum is emotional hate approach.

The emotional hate approach focuses on any genuine hate or possible desire for revenge the source may feel. The interrogator must ascertain exactly what it is the source may hate so the emotion can be exploited to override the source's rational side. The source may have negative feelings about his country's regime, immediate superiors, officers in general, or his fellow soldiers. Yeah. Most of those e-dogs, they got something negative to say about their officers. Tell you that much. That son of a bitch put me here. They made bad decisions.

The emotional hate approach can be used more effectively by drawing out the sources, negative emotions with questions that elicit thought-provoking response. For example, why do you think they allowed you to be captured? Why do you think they left you to die? Yeah. Going to fuel that emotion. Get people to talk. Many sources have great love for their country but may hate the regime and control The emotional hate approaches most effective with the immature or timid source who may have no opportunity up to this point for revenge or never had the courage to voices feelings. Okay

Next we get into the fear up approach Fear up approaches the exploitation of a source's pre-existing fear during the period of capture or interrogation this you'll see I don't know if you're your kids are old enough for this yet but you'll definitely see some pre-existing fear where they get busted doing something you'll see that look in their eyes and it's real easy to work the fear up approach you know what I'm saying good the approach the approach works best with the young inexperienced sources or sources who exhibit a greater than normal amount of fear nervouses again you deal with a straight jihadi they're they're they don't care. Like you get you can almost tell. Well, you could tell like a jihadi. The look on

their face, they're not going to say anything and someone that's not really in the game or is like a junior person. They're scared and they're ready to talk. So you can fear up that person. And it's going to have some effect. Yeah. A source's fear may be justified or unjustified. For example, a source who's committed a war crime made justifiably fear prosecution punishment by contrast the source who has been indoctrinated by enemy propaganda may unjustifiably fear that he will suffer torture death in our hands have captured that's what happened with a lot of the japanese the japanese in world war two they they were told that they would just be slaughtered and killed that we took no prisoners and so they fought to the death it was worked out pretty good for him but when we

captured them they thought they were going to die anyways so the first approach is fear up within parentheses harsh in this approach the interrogator behaves in an overpowering manner with a loud and threatening voice the interrogator may even feel the need to throw objects across the room to heighten the sources implanted feelings of fear great care may must be taken when doing this so any acts would not violate the prohibition on coercion and threats contained in the Geneva Convention article 17 so you know you're gonna start huck and stuff around the room. You ever done that? No. I don't think whatever. I'm trying to think if the last

time I threw something, I think I've thrown like a toy or something trying to make a point type scenario. Yeah. I did that with my girlfriend when I was super young. What'd you do? What'd you throw I didn't throw it I threw like through it on the ground it was a glass did it break we're drinking yeah it broke shattered all dramatic but it didn't work though because yeah she was just like oh dramatic because she knew it's not part of my personality you know you she could tell i was putting on theatrics to be dramatic but yeah but no i don't i'm i don't think you know like certain people have certain personalities for that kind stuff you know where I It won't work something.

Yeah, I don't think, I'm trying to think if I've thrown something, I really can't think of anything right now. There's some quote from some president who says, like, he tells the story about how he, like, threw a pen, and then he had to go pick it up. And just, for some reason, that always stuck with me. It's true. As like, dude, you just did something dumb.

Yeah. And that's actually, that's funny because that's how I felt, like, after when I threw the glass, I was like, oh, but I didn't clean it up. I just was like, because there was no reaction. It didn't work. So it's kind of like, oh, yeah, I guess there's just a broken. It was outside.

It was like kind of an inside of a parking ladder or whatever. But so you ever seen that, you know, we like memes. We're familiar with memes. So this kind of meme game. Hell yeah. There's this old one where it's like two, like you know like a comic strip kind of thing to the two sided one.

So you got one step one and step two. So the first one is like me on Friday and it's like fuck this shit. I don't need it. And this guy doing this and all papers flying everywhere. And then it says Monday. And he's picking up the papers. Yeah. It's really funny, but it's the same exact concept, you know,

where it's like, yeah, you did all that theatrics, then now what, fucking you gotta pick up that pin, you know? Yeah, generally speaking, those kind of dramatics, I mean, look, we're talking about people that have just been captured on the battlefield. There may be some level of impact. Yeah. But, like, you start throwing stuff around your house. Yeah, it's kind of like a big,

double down like gamble really because like if it doesn't work and people are like that was just dumb now you're even way more behind as far as your influence I there was this guy I was in seventh grade he was a music teacher mr. mokowski and he uh he was such a nice guy and then one time he uh he couldn't get control the guy he was like two night he was like a pushover kind of guy and kind of nerdy dude right music teacher he and so he started to like yell to try to get control of the class because it just no one was listening it wasn't like you know back you're not no no no they're just no one was really listening and after a while people were like looking at him kind of lose his temper like almost like they didn't notice he was even yelling

they're just like oh i guess he's like yelling but they kept talking and whatever certain people started to notice oh look at this guy like it's kind of funny like he's losing his temper this little guy like what's he going to do freaking nothing like always right and he goes he grabs a book and we had this tile floor So he grabbed this big book and he like tries to slam it on the ground to make this big boom sound. You know, when a book hit something super smooth, it makes a big pop sound. So he did that. It wasn't that loud. Everyone like kind of looked and they just started laughing.

I was like, man, that is, now he's in a worst position, you know? Now like, now when he starts talking, they're going to be like, bro, we can't even listen to this guy anymore. So yeah, you kind of gamble in that way, right? I recommend you don't throw anything despite the recommendations here. The next one is fear up and it's in parentheses mild this approach is better suited to the strong confidence type of interrogator There's generally no need to raise the voice or reserved back to heavy-handed table banging And then the fear up mild approach must be credible and then you get the fear down it This is what you were talking about earlier fear down approach this technique is nothing more than calming the source and

Convincing him he will be properly and humanely treated telling him the wars the war for for him is mercifully over and he need not go into combat again. When using the soothing calm tone of voice, this often creates rapport and usually nothing else is needed to get the source to cooperate. This is way better in my experience. Just being cool is a good way to get it done. If the EPW is so frightened,

he has withdrawn into a shell, this is what I was talking about earlier. Like I've seen people that are just scared, they can't talk. Interrogator must break through to him. The interrogator can do this by putting himself on the same physical level as the source this might require some physical contact as the source relaxes it begins to respond to kindness The interrogator can begin asking questions This approach or technique can backfire if allowed to go too far After convincing the source he has nothing to fear he may cease to be afraid and may feel secure enough to resist the interrogator's pertinent questions

That's good little point little dichotomy there you can go too far with this stuff and then you get into so those are the fear methodologies and then you get into the pride and ego approach and we've talked about these before because these are pretty common but understanding them not only for when you need to use them but also when they're being used on you it's good thing to pay attention to pride and ego approach this the strategy of this approach is to trick the source into revealing desired information by goading or flattering him it is effective with sources who have displayed weakness or feelings of inferior

This is such an obvious one. A real or imaginary deficiency voiced about the source loyalty or his organization or any other feature can provide a basis of this technique. The interrogator accuses the source of weakness or implies he's unable to do a certain thing. This type of source is also prone to excuses and reasons why he did not do a certain thing, often shifting blame to others. An example is opening the interrogation with the question, why did you surrender so easily? when you could have escaped by crossing the nearby ford in the river. The source is likely to provide a basis for further questions or reveal significant intelligence information

if he attempts to explain his surrender in order to vindicate himself. He may give an answer such as no one could cross the ford because it's mine. You just got a little intel. This technique can also be employed in another manner by flattering the source into admitting certain information in order to gain credit. For example, while interrogating a suspected saboteur, the interrogator states,

this was a smooth operation. I've seen many previous attempts fail. I bet you plan this. Who else but a clever person like you could have planned it? When did you first decide to do the job? That was a little overacting, I think, on those overriding. A problem with pride and ego approaches is it relies on trickery. The source will eventually realize he has been tricked

and may refuse to cooperate further. If this occurs, the interrogator can easily move into fear-up approach and convince the source that the questions he has already answered have committed him and it would be useless to resist further. Is that how they got him on a few good men? That's how they got Colonel Jessup, right? Very, very, I mean, at least in that vein. Yeah. You know?

Yeah, I run my unit and how I run my unit. Yeah, yeah. And kind of like belittling him to make him lash out. And when he lashed out, he had meant. Yeah, that's full, full on ego down. I guess you'd say that's ego down. Ego up approach. This approach is effective on sources with little or no intelligence,

or those have been looked on, look down on for a long time. It's very effective on low-ranking enlisted personnel and junior grade officers as it allows the source to finally show someone they do indeed have some brains. The source is constantly flattered into providing certain information in order to gain credit. This interrogator must take care of to use a flattering

somewhat in awe tone of voice and speak highly of the source through this throughout this approach this quickly produces positive feelings on the sources part as he probably has been looking for this type of recognition all of his life I've definitely seen that activity go down before it goes into some body language here effective targets for a successful pride and ego up approach are usually socially accepted reasons for flattery such as appearance or good military bearing the interrogator should close closely watch the source's demeanor for indications the approach is working. Some indicators

to look for are raising the head, a look of pride in the eyes, swelling of the trust, stiffening of the back. And then you get into the ego down, pride down, and ego down approach. This approach is based on attacking the source's sense of personal worth. Any source who shows any real or imagined inferiority or weakness about himself, loyalty to his organization, or captured under embarrassing circumstances can easily be broken with this approach technique. The objective is for the interrogator to pounce on the source's sense of pride by attacking his loyalty, intelligence, abilities, leadership qualities, slovenly appearance or any other perceived weakness. This will usually goad the source into becoming defensive and he will try and convince the interrogator is wrong.

In this attempt to redeem his pride, this source will usually involuntary provide pertinent information in attempting to vindicate himself. A source susceptible to this approach is also prone to make excuses. and give reasons why he did or did not do a certain thing, often shifting the blame to others. If the interrogator uses a sarcastic, caustic tone of voice with appropriate expressions of distaste or disgust, the source will readily believe him. Possible targets for pride and ego down approach

are the source's loyalty, technical confidence, leadership abilities, social equality's appearance. So those are all just good. Next up is futility. This is another approach. In this source, the interrogator convinces the source that resistance to questioning is futile. Cool. You're not finished here until you answer these questions.

Everyone talks sooner or later. The futility of the battlefield situation, futility in the sense, if the source does not mind talking about history, why should you mind talking about his missions? They're also history. Making the situation appear hopeless allows the source to rationalize his actions, especially if that action is cooperating with the interrogator. Yeah. You see this a lot with the police. Like, hey, it doesn't matter.

We already know. Yeah, yeah. That's the futility or you're, it's like there's no point in resisting right now. You're already, we already got you on video. Yeah, yeah. Which is similar to this next approach is, which is we know all to begin the interrogation. The interrogator asks questions based on known data. When the source hesitates, refuse to answer or provides an incorrect or incomplete, reply, the interrogator provides the detail answer.

The detailed answer, that's a nice little trick, isn't it? Like, when did you show up here? Oh, I don't know. Well, we have video of you showing up here at 728. You're like, ooh. When the source begins to give accurate and complete information, the interrogator interjects questions designed to gain that needed information. Pretty straightforward.

File and dossier. This is an approach. The file and dossier approach is used when the interrogator. interrogator prepares a dossier containing all available information obtained from documents concerning the source or his organization Careful arrangement of the material within the file may give the illusion it contains more data than is actually there The file may be padded with extra paper if necessary Index tabs with titles such as education employment criminal record military service and others are particularly effective Do your prep work

And this is another one you see a lot of establish your identity this approach is especially adaptable to interrogation the interrogator insists the source has been correctly identified as an infamous individual wanted by higher authorities on serious charges and is not and he is not the person he purports to be in an effort to clear himself with this allegation the source makes a genuine and detailed effort to establish or substantiate his true identity identity and so doing he may provide the interrogator with information and leads for further development.

The established your identity approach was effective in Vietnam with the Viet Cong and in operations just cause in desert storm. I wonder they're going to have so much more so much more we have 20 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan but I got to get the updated manual and see how all this stuff look see what they learned because just cause like they're talking about that really or desert storm those are short operations. Repetition. This approach is used to induce cooperation from a hostile source. In one variation of this approach,

the interrogator listens carefully to a source's answers to a question, then repeats the question and answer several times. Dude, this is just like going at someone, which is also what rapid fire is. Rapid fire involves, this is the next one, rapid fire involves a psychological ploy based on the principle that Everyone likes to be heard when he speaks. It's confusing to be interrupted in mid-sentence with an unrelated question.

So you're just going, bam, bam, bam, bam. And this is my favorite one, silent. This approach may be successful and used against the nervous or confidence source. It's interesting, both the nervous source and the confidence source. When employing this technique, the interrogator says nothing to the source but looks him squarely in the eye, preferably with a slight smile. on his face it's important not to look away from the source but force him to break eye contact first It doesn't say why that's important It's like the old fight you know square off

You know go he broke eye contact. He's gonna lose really not so much. It's a psychological thing, but I don't think it means it very much I've definitely you go those videos of guys that are in the face off And the one guy's all super agro in the face off and gets knocked out in 38 seconds. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of that. I mean, I would think nowadays people know about that kind of stuff. You know, like the psychology, the eye content, where so they'll just put on the act, you know? Remember when John Jones would just like look over there?

Like he just like look to a different area. Actually, that kind of backs up what I'm saying, where it's like it's so obvious that that has nothing to do with how you perform in the fight. that it's like this whole separate thing that they're going to make a mockery out of it you know kind of a thing dude what about when rose thug rose was just like staring and just reciting

the Lord's prayer I think or something like that was that was pretty impressive that was a good standoff remember Vandalay back in the day yeah he had the most hype stare downs right yeah and yeah and he would win too you know so it's like but again

it's like the the I mean the interrogation thing anyway it seems like that's kind of the natural psychology, the natural flow of like psychology into behavior, you know, kind of a thing. But like in fighting, since it's so all well known that it becomes this whole separate thing,

you know, where it's like some people, they'll just make a show out of the stair down. Like so you ever seen the, I think it was like, what's the one, the girl, the Waters,

I think her last name is, the karate hoti one. It was like her and then, might have been Paige or, I don't know, I forget who, but they would do like some dance together. You know how they dance

and they dance and they, point to the other one the other one dance so it becomes this thing so this whole stare-down is like not that anymore it's a whole different thing yeah in in many cases yeah yeah yeah I'm sure it plays itself out in other little like less known areas I remember one time too like when Rhonda was Rhonda Rouser was coming kind of the thing was against Holly home Holly Holmes and she was acting all crazy and like acting all aggressive and Holly just looked like a serial killer basically, just like staring back at her.

Oh, the one that she won? Yeah, the one that, the one that Holly won. And it was like, okay, maybe some of that over-aggressiveness was like a little, you know, trying to, trying to psych themselves up. Yeah, it makes sense. But I suspect at the end of the day, they're now two different things. How you handle yourself in the stare down and the way in has very little bearing on how you perform. Since they're so separated now.

So sometimes they'd be like, oh, wow, you see, she was ready. You could tell she had an effective stare-down scenario for that event specifically. And, you know, maybe there's some correlation, but there's no reliable way to tell. That's what it seems like. I don't know. Check. Continue on with this silent approach. The source may become nervous, begin to shift his chair, cross and recrosses legs and look away.

He may ask questions, but the interrogator should not answer until he's ready to break. the silence the source may blurt out such questions is come on now what do you want with me When the interrogator is ready to break the silence he may do so with some nonchalant questions such as You plan this operations for a long time didn't you was it your idea the interrogator must be patient when using this technique It may appear the technique is not succeeding but usually will when given a reasonable chance I was Like a old long time ago was buying a car with my wife or whatever sure you know we're doing the deal we're doing the negotiation and I'm just silent right my wife's super uncomfortable like with silence yeah I don't care and you know I forget what the

what kind of initiated the silence you know whether it was like well what you know well how much do you think the car is worth or well I don't know what question but I just sat there and there was just silence and afterwards my wife was like I don't know how you do that. I would hate to like deal with you. You're a psychopath. I'm like, well, they came down, didn't they? They got, we got what we wanted.

It worked. And she was like, yeah, I bet that doesn't mean you're not a psycho. And I said, well, fair enough. We can roll with that. Yeah. Again, I feel like in these, you know, when that part of it is so obviously known where it's less likely they think like, oh, this is part of the theatrics of it all. You know, there's certain circumstances where it's pretty obvious that there's a good chance there's some theatrics going on with the eye contact or the, oh, you know, like, you know, like a firm handshake, you know, that whole thing, right?

Oh, you know, firm handshake. Where back in the day, that made sense because it was just a normal, natural kind of part of interaction or whatever, like the initial part of whatever. But now it's so well known, like, yeah, you want a firm hand. So sometimes, you shake, like, these young guys' hands and they're doing it like all hard. Like, right, you're like a small dude. Like you don't have to like squeeze my hand all hard to shake it normal, you know, kind of a thing. But you can tell they're putting extras on it to make some kind of specific impression consciously, you know? So it's like, right, it doesn't even serve that purpose anymore.

It serves a whole different purpose. See what I'm saying? Yeah. Unless someone doesn't know, deal. Exactly right. But kind of we all know the deal right now. That's the point right there where there's certain times where it's kind of like it's more known now, you know, like the eye contact thing or the or the stare down or the, you know, the handshake. whatever even the negotiation part like that's becoming more and more well

known you know yeah people definitely know the weird thing is though is it it still is functional yeah I think I think that you know what and this is why I think I don't know but it feels like negotiation and there are other things too it's so vast there's so many approaches and little details it in it I don't know how complex it is but it's there's so much to it that there's so much known, yes, but there's so much not known. And there's so much subtlety and technique and all this other stuff. So it's kind of like, yeah, you might be doing, you could actually do the, what do you

call it, like the reverse psychology. You could, you could act like you're doing this approach, but you're really doing this other approach because you know that they're going to pick up on this approach when you throw that, you know, it's more of like a faint. You see what I'm saying? So it kind of does that. I mean, there's that part of it, I think. Yeah, I think, too, there's like a more modern version of negotiation, especially

like when buying stuff or where people recognize that you've got to be more strategic and you've got to be like oh look if I rip off echo right now on buying this car he's going to tell 10 of his friends and like no one's going to buy a car with me again right right yeah like sales is another right where I'm whereas if I'm like hey you're a client I need to take care of you of course you know I need to make money right like we can come up with a more sort of equal deal yeah then back in the day like he won't when I joined the Navy when I when I first got to San Diego right you like if you went down to the national city mile of cars oh yeah I loved it never it was mayhem like dude a sailor would walk on to the lot and there'd be sharks on him ready to sell them of shitty car at 24.99% interest it was mayhem yeah it's not I personally don't think it's that it's like that anymore I think people recognize like oh yeah then we have a bad reputation with every sailor on that ship or whatever.

He's going to tell everyone he got ripped off and he's going to hate us. Whereas if I'm cool to him, give him a good deal, he's going to tell his friends. And I think people just become more strategic about sales. Probably some of it has to do with the fact that communication is so much more vast and webbed now. And you can do a Yelp review.

There's so many ways to overcome. Well, they used to be like, hey, you drove off the lot. Dude, no, I was never going to see you again. Yeah. Yeah. Even like those high pressure stuff, like, you know, the old school sale selling movies, like stock market stuff or whatever. It's like the old school ones are like real like they're dashing and fun and high pressure. Like that kind of stuff.

Nowadays doesn't work like that. In fact, nowadays there's this big wave of like this essentially it's just this collaboration, you know, where they want to kind of build this rapport and relationship in a genuine way. And in fact, the more genuine, the better. Yeah. Not this like even they frown upon small talk. They fly, oh, so how's the weather over there? They frown on that because it's not genuine. You know, so it's like kind of the more genuine you can get, the better.

Yeah, definitely the strategic approach. Because thinking about if I sell you a car and I kind of take care of you. Yeah. You're gonna give me five referrals or three referrals. And that's gonna do way better than I jacked you for an extra 300 bucks. Yeah. And that's not to mention actually that to me and I don't know, but it feels like that's secondary, that logical. part as secondary compared to like, hey, I like this guy.

This sales guy is not pushy. He understands me. He's listening to me. Like, bro, I'll freaking buy whatever. This guy, because I believe, I trust him. I trust this guy. I like them, you know, kind of a thing. Not to mention all the Yelp reviews and all the stuff that I'm probably going to give

him and like all this stuff. You know? So it's like if the sales guy knows like, hey, I really want to build a relationship with this guy for this short time I have. Genuinely, it's, that feels better and more effective. And then not to mention the Yelp reviews and all the secondary benefits But back in the day, bro. No, no, no, it's different.

Back in the day, it was a different game. It was a different game back in the day. I'm sure there's still some of that. And there has to be some of that, right? Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, shoot, they say a car, use car salesman that expression. They say it for a reason, you know. But it seems to be fading.

It seems to be. Because you just can't get away with that stuff anymore. At least it certainly appears that you can't. It appears that way, yeah. But what other arenas though are like that kind of sales? You know what, there's a whole door to door. Yeah, I was gonna do this door to door like solar? Solar, yeah.

You ever have those people come to your house? Like they'll come to your house like, hey, I'm like, I already have solar. So yeah, we're good. You can, you don't have to hang out here. Well, sometimes, okay, so I will admit like I'm kind of, it's fun to listen to the pitch that say, well, yes, yes, and subsequently, but that like,

You know how there's like sales people out there. Like who kind of, that's their jam. They just kind of promote, you give you tips on how to sell and how to do this. So, and a lot of it has to do with psychology, all this stuff. So it's, it is fun,

yes, to hear the pitch. I don't want them to come and hear the pitch. But when they're here, it's interesting to hear the little techniques. Like, oh, you learn that technique.

Well, like, for example, one of the techniques is, uh, I think they call it social proof. But basically what they do is they say, hey,

you know, freaking, uh, Fred, like your neighbor Fred, like two doors, down here or whatever. Meanwhile, they might have got their name

because of, you know, however, like they say, oh, I'm John, what's your name? Okay, cool, cool. Or they know from public records, whatever. They know that, and they act like they know them, right? And they're like, yeah, you know, like we just, we just hooked them up and they're saving, you know. So it's kind of like, oh wait, it worked from a friend that I know.

So it must work for me, right? That's like the approach or whatever, but they say it and I'm like, I know that technique, you know, but it is interesting. But I can see how it works though, 100%. Yeah. And even like I was saying, like I was buying this car for my wife back in the day and like it worked. Yeah. The one of the, if you're actually buying something, you got to be able to walk away.

That's like you got to not really want the thing. Yeah. Or you got at least convince yourself that you don't really want the thing. If you really want the thing, you're not in a good position to negotiate, right? Yeah. You really, really want it. And they can smell that. Mm-hmm.

So now you're like, oh. Bro, a good guy. And this was like a, it seemed good before I knew it, but. a good sales guy, let's say a car, for example, he'll make you feel like you want it even more. Like if you came in like, I got to be like I don't really want. I got to convince myself, I don't really want it. Take it or leave it, you know,

therefore I can, you know, I'm not trapped into, emotionally trapped into getting this, you know, committing to getting this thing. And they can kind of create that world where you do want it a lot. I'll tell you. Oh, I got another guy coming to look at it this afternoon. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Oh, shoot. If you miss out on this. You know what? If you don't want, it's fine, because I got another guy he's coming in this afternoon. And he's, he's been looking all over for this one. Yeah, the, dude, man. So there's, uh, you ever go to a website where there's a clock? Like, no, no, a number of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 27 in stock, 24 in stock, 23 in stock, 22 in stock.

You're like, oh, yeah, on Amazon, they do that. Really? Two more in stock. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, man. And like, as long as you watch out for, so there's a, there's a guy I worked with. I think I told you his story. Forgive me if I have, but it's significant.

So there's this guy I worked with when I was a valet. Actually, he used to be a car salesman. And he says, yeah, there's like little techniques on how you say things. So he's like, one of the things I would say is like blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, you say the pitch or whatever and say, yeah, let me just check these numbers or whatever and see if we can't get you driving home in your brand new car today. So what he did is get you driving home. So now that person imagines themselves driving home in a brand new car today instead of, oh, to get you the deal.

Like get you the deal. It's too arbitrary. I don't see a world where the deal is improving my life. You know, the deal is a deal. It can apply to anything. But me driving home in my brand new car today. That's hard to be like, no, I don't care about that. You know, when they plan it in your brain like that.

But if you know if it's a technique, you can't fight against cigarettes. There you go. Or you have a better balanced footing, you know, to make the right decision. It's true, man. It is true. It's wild out there. All right. Escaping sales going into now the questioning phase.

The interrogation effort has two primary goals to obtain information and to report it. Developing using good questioning, developing and using good questioning techniques, enable the interrogator to obtain accurate and pertinent information by following a logical sequence. And then it goes into direct. follow-up, non-pertenant, repeated, and control. Direct questions. Questions should be presented in a logical sequence to avoid neglecting significant topics.

And again, this is getting into like the interrogation and military part of it where you don't want to miss certain pertinent topics. The interrogator must consider the probable response of the source to a particular question or a line of questioning and should not, if at all possible, ask direct questions, likely to evoke a refusal to answer or antagonize the source.

This is like the old sales thing where they're just trying to get you to say yes a bunch of times and it like conditions you to say yes. How much truth is there to that? Well, I don't know how much there is not. Well, now the hot, new hotness is get them to say no. Well, Chris Voss was the first one that I heard say this, but they say this in sales now, too. Get them to know because they don't commit to anything. Like anytime you like a person, what do they call it?

prospect or whatever they call them. Anytime you say yes as a prospect, you feel a small element of like being trapped because you committed to something by saying yes. Saying no, it's like, no commitment. So you get them to say no. So they just inverse the language. So they'll be like, hey, are you against,

you know, me telling you about this new opportunity for five minutes? Are you against that? You know, so it's not against anything. I don't know. I'm not committed to you. You know, so it's easier to say no. But what did you do?

You just said yes to freaking giving up five minutes. So you're saying? So it's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe, again, if it's a different time, I guess the, what would they say? The psychology behind it was if they say yes, it means like you're kind of on the same page. Like, yes, yes, yes, get them to yes. Yeah, like, yeah, it's like you're getting them to slowly commit to something.

Yeah. I bet it makes them feel like they're more in control, right? Because I can say no if I have to. So is this a bad time? No. That's a different question. And then it sounds if do you have do you have five minutes right now? It's hard to say yes.

That's what I'm saying. So if they say yes. So getting them to yes is you trap them and they feel trapped. Especially to a stranger and a cold call or something like this. But no is like that's why they say, is it a bad time? And it's like if I say yes, it's a bad time. It's like I'm committing to the bad time almost kind of a thing. It's way easy.

It's just easier. It's like less commitment saying no, you know. Check. Getting into the questions. Non-pertaining questions is the one that it starts with. Non-pertaining questions are used to conceal the interrogations objectives or to strengthen rapport from the source. They may be used to break the source's concentration, particularly if the interrogator suspects the source or suspects the source is lying. It's hard for a source to convince, to be a convincing liar if his concentration is frequently interrupted.

Okay. So you're going to have some random questions in there, some non-purtinent questions. Repeated questions. Repeated questions ask the source for the same information obtained in response to earlier questions. They may be exact repetitions of the previous question or the previous question may be rephrased or otherwise disguised. The use of repeated questions may develop a topic the source had refused to talk about earlier. Repeated questions may also be used to check source reliability, ensure accuracy of important details. Return to a topical area for further questioning.

Okay. Control questions are developed from recently confirmed information that is not likely to have changed. They are used to check the truthfulness of the sources responses and should be mixed in with other questions throughout the interrogation. This is a, I would say that I utilize control questions, but it's more like controlled questions about things that I agree with you on. So like if I'm if we've got to go do if I agree with you an A B C and D I won't come in and say hey what's going on with D and you tell me what's going on I'm like I don't like that But I go hey what's going on with A and you tell me oh that sounds good what about B and you could tell me and I go okay that's cool And then I said what about C and you tell me how you're going to handle that and I go that's a good plan and by now you're you and I'm You know now I go hey what about D and you tell me what you're going to do and I'm like hey I'm not are you sure that might be the best approach

that you go well why do you say that see I've developed a nice little so it's like I'm gonna confirm some stuff that we agree upon before I jump and hit you with something that I know we're yeah got a disagreement on it kind of gives me the feeling of like hey you're on my side yeah overall you know we're down yeah so it's like I can I can create this psychological separation between like you being against me or for me you know like you're not against Me, you're just against this very specific thing. By the way, I'm with you over here. I'm with you over here.

This thing, wait, why aren't we aligned? We should be. Yeah, yeah. We kind of agree on most stuff, right? Yeah. A, B and C. Could be, would be you just confused a little bit. I can clarify, you know.

Or maybe I got it wrong. I don't know, you're on my side. We're hearing it together doing this thing. You know, kind of a feeling. So those are like control questions. I like it. Prepared questions are used primarily when dealing with information of a technical nature or a specific topic, which requires the interrogator of formula.

questions beforehand okay fair enough that's probably a good idea by the way all these things role playing and doing a little role playing before you run into talk to somebody that you need to talk to about something I should probably go do a role play with my peer or my boss before if I got a fire echo and I roll in there and I want to talk to you about your performance and why you're getting fired I better role play that a little bit make sure I got some good answers questions to avoid interrogators should avoid the following types of questions leading questions.

Leading questions require the source to answer yes or no. They do not elicit narrative answers. They also prompt the source to answer the question in a way he thinks the interrogator wants to hear it. So opening up a narrative and allowing the person to articulate things the way they want to articulate them, those are very positive way. The minute you say, you see politicians do this a lot because the reporter will be like, It's a yes or no question.

Or actually, you know, the congressional hearings, they do that. There'll be some witness like on the stand in Congress, and the congressman will be like, well, do you think that blah, blah, blah, and the person will be like, well, you know what? It's a yes or no question. And the people on the stand don't want to give a yes or no answer a lot of times. Yeah, because they call it, there's a certain, I mean, there's a bunch of them, obviously, but there's a certain kind of question.

There's a name for it where in the class. example is like how long have you been beating your wife so it's like wait a second you know there's all this other stuff that may or may not be true loaded in the question you know kind of a thing and they're like no no it's a simple answer online a lot of times these questions are yes or no questions like odd did you know about the this and that this and that and you're like wait but this is true this is not true and those other three things those aren't true either so did I know about you know so it's like there's more to it than that

They're like yes or no question. Technically. Did you see the university presidents getting interrogated by the congressional members about the use of language, anti-Semitic language at Harvard, MIT, and I think Brown? Maybe university? Yeah, no, no, no. I didn't see that. Or maybe it wasn't brown. But it was definitely Harvard at MIT because the Harvard or maybe it was Penn.

Anyways, the Harvard president was the one that got well, she said she resigned, but she got fired. But when you watch that, it was very strange to see how confused they were about the situation and not realize. And by the way, when I say they were confused, they didn't realize how stupid they looked. Like that one president from Harvard thought she was doing great. You could see this little smirk she had on her face and she's like looking at as if in her mind, she's just doing this awesome job. And anyone that's watching it is cringing going, what are you doing? What kind of answers are you giving right now?

What is wrong with you? It was very strange to watch. But you could see that from the smirk on her face and the smirk on the other women's faces that were supposed to be answering these questions, they thought that they were really smart and thought that they were just kicking ass up there. It was kind of crazy to watch how just totally off base they were. Negative questions. These are types of questions you should avoid again. Negative questions should never be used during an interrogation. They imply the source should reply in the negative and this sometimes confuses or leads the source to provide false information. For example, you're not in the first company. Are you? Negative question usually require additional questions, clarify okay that makes sense compound questions this is what you were just talking about before you were captured today were you traveling north or south like a compound

question that could have correct parts and incorrect parts all in the same question got to watch out for those that negative question is true you like even in everyday life where and a big one that we just overlook and gloss over because we know what we mean is when when you say hey hey do you mind passing that do you mind passing the drink or whatever do you mind passing the fork right typical answer is, oh yeah, yeah, they'll say yes, right? Yes, I'll pass the fork. That's not what I ask, though.

Technically, I ask, do you mind if you pass the fork? So the answer should be no if you don't mind passing the fork. So you can say yes or no, but that is, again, like we just gloss over it because we understand. But when you go deep, you go into interrogation or you go in a situation where the answer actually matters for the record or whatever. Bro, they can jam you up, you know. You literally ask one thing. The guy knew the answer, essentially, gave the wrong answer because of your confusing question. It's true.

Yeah. Vague questions do not have enough information for the source to understand exactly what's being asked. So don't use them. That's what it goes into there. And then it just talks that, you know, it's got a section in here about recording information. Several reasons to record information obtained during interrogations. The most important is to ensure information can be reported completely and accurately. recorded information may also be used to refresh the interrogator's memory on a topic covered

earlier, such as when returning to a topic after exploiting a hot lead, check responses to repeated questions, point out inconsistencies of the source, gain the cooperation of other sources, compare with information received from other sources. So it goes into a big thing about taking notes and recording and all that. So pretty straightforward. And then it gets into the termination phase, which is when you're going to end the interrogation. When is necessary or prudent, the interrogator will terminate the interrogation there are many ways to conduct determination but the following points must be conveyed to the source the approaches used to break the source must be reinforced any promised incentives should be rendered the

reinforcement must be sincere and convincing as the source may be interrogated again the source must be told the information he gave will be checked for truthfulness and accuracy his reaction to the statement should be closely monitored the source must be told he will be spoken to again by the same or another interrogator and any identification or other documents personal property or other material must be returned to the source or be given to the evacuation guard as appropriate it's more of a technical thing and then it says what this is the last point for that we're going to cover the termination procedures whatever the reason for terminating the interrogator must remember that there's a possibility someone may want to question the source at a later date for

that reason he should terminate without any loss of rapport when possible he offers the opportunity for the source to change or add any information he's given so you want to end on a good note essentially is what it's saying which is a good a good policy to keep interacting with other human beings it's like we I said in the middle this thing when I'm gonna communicate with someone I want that to improve our relationship my with another human being I want our relationship to get better. That's what my goal is and it's important to think about the way that you ask questions and how you behave and what history is in the situation all impacts that interaction that you're about to have.

So think about that. Think about that because every interaction you have either builds a relationship or breaks down. I suppose there's a small amount that keeps it neutral. Sure, but most of the time you interact with another person you make things a little bit better or you make the Things a little bit worse. Sometimes you make them a lot worse. Sometimes you make them a lot better. But you certainly want to improve the relationship, build the relationship, not break it down.

That's what we're doing. If you're aware of this, if you're thinking about it, just like you're talking about all these little sales techniques. If you're aware of them, you're going to be that much better off. So if you actually consider and are aware of the way you're interacting with other people, you're going to be better off. You're going to be better off in anything that everything that's everything that's going to be better off. often anything that everything that you do there's no time when having an antagonistic relationship

with other people helps I should say almost no time maybe if that person is like a serial killer or whatever yeah but other than that people you work with family members friends people at the gym people in your jih Tzu class people in the other department that you sometimes work with the contractors that are helping out your company at the time there's There's no time we're having an antagonistic relationship with those people is going to help you. Your boss, your peers, there's no time. There's no time. There's no time where you have to interact with another human being and you treat them bad

or you don't get along that it's going to benefit you. It just doesn't happen. Look, is there some niche freaking moment in time? Sure there is. I don't know what it is. You know, the person was about to make a call on who he wants to send somewhere and he didn't like you so he didn't send you and that plane crashed. Yeah.

I mean, that's not. Exactly. But generally speaking, the vast majority of the time, if you think about how you interact with other people, you can improve those relationships and you're going to be better off across the board. That's what we're doing. All right. What do we got?

What else are we doing? We're getting after it. It kind of in a big way. Did you train this weekend? I didn't see you training this weekend. I did not. The jih jih Tzzi. No.

Negative. Did you lift? Did I hope? I lifted. I had one. I did a lifting session on Saturday that got interrupted by a friend coming over. And, you know, so I, you know. He was coming over at five in the morning, huh?

I don't lift it by. All right. My five in the morning lifts are few and far between, although I do do them from time to time. And the last, lifting is lifting. And you even said last time when we're here freaking lifting, you're stronger in the afternoon. True. I don't. I think it might be, and I agree with that.

I didn't say anything when you said it, but I'm like, yeah, brother, that's really true in my experience. In the morning, sometimes, yeah, mentally you might feel better, clear, and it's better. It's a better time to get it out of the way. And all that is true, too. So you, me pick your battles. Benefits outweigh the negatives for me personally. Yeah, yeah. And again, that, and ultimately it depends on who you are and how your day is structured, all this stuff.

But when I lift in the afternoon, sometimes mentally I'll be like, whatever, but physically, I feel stronger. Maybe because like the blood's flowing more or so I don't know whatever it is there's like actual kind of what is it hormonal reasons that are things are going and the way your your system is working that the afternoon's going to be better for you yeah yeah isn't there like two spikes in tests or some natural tests or something something like that yeah but I always wonder like well what if you wake up at a different time than the normal person then won't those spikes come at different times or maybe it has to do with a circuit like the sun and all this like this whole thing goes deep but as long as you're lifting you're good to that's the main thing as long as you're exercising you could get caught up in like where the sun is

in the sky and what time you're lifting or you could lift yeah before the song comes up my recommendation by the way there you go hey you're gonna need fuel nonetheless I say joccofuel dot com get you some clean get you some good clean fuel get the hydrate get the greens My recommendation is mixed creatine into your greens. Echoes is mixed it into your hydrate. You can go either way. I'm good with either way. Or all three.

Maybe all three of the above. I have put all three together. It's good, by the way. See, you've mentioned greens probably like the last five to six times that this has come up. And it kind of goes to show like, you know how like, I don't know, I forget what it's called, but it's a thing. It's like an actual phenomenon where like you hear something like enough. It just starts to influence you or whatever. So I'm like, I guess I'm putting greens.

I feel like I feel it coming closer and closer to me actually doing that in the greens. Oh, you haven't, you don't take the greens? I don't take the greens. Why? I mean, I take the greens from time to time. It's not on my daily though. The daily is hydrate and creatine in the morning every single day. Why do you take hydrate in the morning?

I don't know. You haven't sweated yet. No, do you lose hydration when you sleep? That's true. Good point. Yeah. But yeah, that's how. And, you know, creatine, boom, hydrate.

Good morning. All right. That's what we're to get the greens taste good. That's one of that they do bonuses It's not like you have to choke them down. It's not like you have to do a Shot of tequila did you drink tequila back in the day? Yeah here and there so bad Yeah, it's one of those things it's an experience. I mean yeah sure a lot of people don't like it I don't think it tastes bad I think it's like you need it doesn't taste worse or better than any other freaking hard alcohol in and of itself In fact it tastes a little bit better okay you get the salt you get the tequila You get the lemon it's a whole thing

I didn't do that thing. Yeah, I was just drinking. Just palm tequila. Freaking idiot. Brother, I smell that stuff now and I'm like, what is, how can we, how have people been convinced to drink this?

To pay money to drink this stuff. It smells terrible. Yeah, well, alcohol, obviously, even beer, you know, there's like beer and tasting and all this stuff or whatever. And they, oh, this beer is good or whatever. Taste in and of itself is just a small, teeny, tiny part of it. And it's not even that good.

Like beer doesn't taste good. Everyone knows that vodka doesn't taste good. But wait. There are people though that legitimately, like if you put them on a lie detector test, they truly do like the taste of beer, of wine, of some like scotch or whatever. Oh yeah, fully. But it's more of a holistic thing. It's not the taste in and of itself.

It's the whole experience. So like, you know, like a tasting, right? Like a, if you got a wine tasting, there's more to it than just tasting wine. There's technique. the environment, there's the cup or the glass, whatever. It's the whole thing, it's the whole experience. So the taste of tequila, the taste of vodka, the taste of wine has to do with more than just the taste.

If it only do the taste, you'd be like, no, this tastes junk. Chocolate milk tastes good. Moultu tastes good. Mulk. Tateau-Tas-good. Exactly right. So, yeah. So as far as the tequila, it's the experience. So, yeah, again, the lemma, usually with your friends.

Actually, not to go too deep on the tequila thing, the reason that most people who really hate tequila specifically is because they had a bad experience with tequila in the past so now it has that freaking mark on their brain that like this is just toxic they it reminds them like neurologically reminds them of like throwing up like probably more likely PTSD exactly right tequila stress disorder I don't think I ever did that with tequila gosh but once you don't drink your alcohol just seems terrible yeah and this well the smell of it.

Well, you know why people, we like alcohol, though, and why there's addiction and like all this stuff. So back in the, this is the theory. That's when I read. So through our evolution, it was the people who could metabolize ferment, like alcohol, who could metabolize it. And we know there's seven calories per gram of alcohol that you can metabolize as energy. So, you know, you get like rotten fruits or, you know, all this other stuff where, we're,

where the fermentation process produces alcohol molecules, the organisms that could metabolize that survived. Now, you know, you get different areas. So nowadays how it plays itself. Genetics are all mixed up now. So their alcohol has like the molecules go and they bind to certain receptors or whatever. So the more receptors you have, the more you'll be like an alcoholic.

Something along those lines. Interesting. My little physiology is very rusty. Well, look, you don't need alcohol. I'm here to tell you right now. You know what you do need? Jock Fuel. Protein.

You need protein. Maybe you need some energy, get some go. Anyways, you guys know the deal. Joccofuel.com, go check it out. Also, you can get it at Wawaat vitamin shop, G&C, military commissaries, Afees, Hanford, dash stores in Maryland, Wakefern, Shoprite, H.E.B. Meyer, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, and small gyms everywhere. We got all kinds of people that are selling jocco fuel in their gyms now.

If you want to sell jocco fuel in your gym, go to email jf sales at joccofuel.com. That's what we got for you. Also, if you need gear, if you need clothing, because from what I read, if you had clothing, you could survive more. Yeah. Because you wouldn't freeze. Yeah, the winters and the weather for sure. And we make clothing here in America.

OriginUSA.com. Go get yourself some jeans, some boots. Get yourself a rash guard. Get yourself some workout clothes. Get yourself some hunt gear. Whatever you need. We got you. We got you.

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We're all on the path. We're representing on the path. This is where you use shirts and the hats and hoodies. We have also shorts on there. I don't mention that all the time. We've got shirts. some board shorts that are kind of hybridy. They have the stretch to them so you can work out in them.

All good. Hybridy. Yeah, they're hybrid-ish. What's the date today? So we should already have socks and quick flip hoodies, by the way. If we don't, they come in soon. So be on the lookout for that. Also, the short locker, new design on your shirt every month.

Subscription scenario. It's a good one. People seem to like those designs. You can represent pretty hardcore with those. Check that out if you want. So yeah, chocolate store.com. Also, check out primalbeef.com or Colorado Craftbeef.com. So you can get some steak, some ground beef, some burgers.

I'm about to go have a burger. How you like that? I guess what I had last night for dinner? Burgers. Yeah. Three burger patties with some grilled onions. Yeah. My wife made enough grilled onions to supply an army.

Yeah. Okay. Good move. They were good. Brother, so what, do you have a certain burger protocol? No, my wife makes me burger. Oh, okay. Oh, ketchup, mayonnaise, what?

Grilled onions, if possible. I think my burger protocol is pretty solid. And there's many. Do you make sliders? You ever do sliders? Not really. I think freaking eat like five months. You probably put on those little Hawaiian sweet rolls.

Yeah. I can see where that's a, I've had in a restaurant where you do that. But we don't have Hawaiian street rolls in my house. That's what called, right, Hawaiian sweet rolls? Sweet really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All good. Oh, yeah. But there's a seasoning that I use, a new one, by the way. But I use that for the burgers you put a little bit of light mayo. You heat up the buns a little bit.

Ketchup and a honey mustard. Oh, and cheese, of course. Try that. Try that. Report back. Well, if you need that beef to make that with, go to Coloradocrafbeef.com or go to primalbeef.com. Get the quality stuff. It makes a big difference, too.

It makes a big difference if you get the quality, quality meat. Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to Jocko Underground, subscribe to the YouTube channels. We got a bunch of them. Jocko podcast, Jock Fuel, Eshlam Front, Origin USA. Check out all those YouTube channels. Psychological Warfare. Flipsidecanvas.com.

Dakota Meyer making cool stuff to hang on your wall. Also, we got books. I've written a bunch of books, mostly about leadership. I've also written a bunch of kids' books. Check those out. Ashlandfront, Leadership Consultancy, Eshlamfront.com. If you need help inside your organization, so you can develop relationships off and down across the chain of

and have a better running team go to echelonfront.com and if you want to get trained in this stuff in these skills for leadership and life go to extreme ownership.com and take some of our online classes and if you want to help service members active and retired you want to help their families you want to help gold star families check out mark lees mom mama lee she's got a charity organization if you want to donate or you want to get involved go to america's mighty warriors dot org Also, we've got Heroes and Horses.org and we've got beyond the brotherhood.org. Check those out if you want to connect with us. We're on the interwebs.

We're on social media, for lack of a better word. Echoes at Echo Charles. I'm at Jocka Wong. Just be careful because there's an algorithm that's going to try and steal your life away from you. So don't let that happen. Thanks to everyone out there in uniform. The cloth of the nation. Thank you for holding the line and keeping freedom and democracy safe in the world.

Also thanks to our police law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thanks for keeping us safe here at home. And everyone else out there, listen, you aren't an interrogator. That's not why we did this today. I don't want you to try and be an interrogator. I want you to remember that adverse relationships almost never help

and that hostilities with other people make things harder in your life. treat people nicely treat people good give them trust listen to them treat them with respect allow yourself to be influenced by them care about them as people that's how you build relationships and good relationships with people in your world will make your world and the world a better place and until next time this is echo and jocco out