Jocko Podcast - 426: Sometimes You Just Gotta Put Out a Sign. With Zach Bell (Veteran With A Sign)

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

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This is Jocko podcast number 426 with Echo Charles and me Jockerwillink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Stop asking questions you can Google. We always seem to have enough to pay for war, but not enough to cover the cost. Tonitis is the real sound of freedom. Reacher is an MP sciop. There might be an easier way to pay for college.

I like my coffee black and my tea in the harbor. Mario is the original pipe hitter. I figured you'd like that one, Echo Charles. I do. Leaders shouldn't impose their opinion. Dear Navy, changing uniforms is not a suicide prevention plan. Drinking in the military made me the real liver king. Compression shirts are just dude shapewear.

wearing gaiters doesn't make you a seal but writing a book does i still can't back up without a ground guide s3 operations is where dreams go to die try not to get married over leave not all who wander are lost except the lt perfect pt scores don't make good leaders take motron drink water Change your socks. You are not your mistakes. And those right there are some quotes from Zach Bell, who is known as, I would say even better known as, veteran with a sign.

Zach was a Marine Corps rifleman who served with the one-six Marines and fought with those Marines through two deployments to Helmand Province, including the Battle of Garmser and the Battle of Marja in 2010 in Afghanistan. And he learned a lot of lessons along the way through his experiences. And eventually started to share those lessons that he learned, not through books, not through podcasts, not through videos, but he started to share those lessons learned through Sharpie pens and pieces of cardboard

and holding up signs written on cardboard and that's how he became known as the veteran with a sign and it's an honor to have him with us here tonight to talk through some of those experiences and lessons learned. So, Zach, thanks for joining us.

Thank you for having me. I tried to get some of my top veteran with a sign quotes. Yeah, I, I just want to apologize for the Navy SEAL jokes now. Navy SEALs deserve jokes. You should read the comments. It's a mixed bag.

No, it was just, you know, I'm actually impressed by the list. It's robust. Well, yeah, and I mean, even though there's some seals that haven't written books, I've written enough books to make up for those guys, I think. I think I'm getting there at least. Yeah. Yeah, you're leading the way. Yeah, you got that echelon front covered down.

Yeah, we got that covered. Yeah. No, you really do. You do a great job and the signs that you put up and the, really it's the topics that you bring to light through these quotes. Some of them are just funny. Some of them are very serious. And I think they're just powerful. And obviously they have made a mark on a lot of people.

And they transfer a good message to a lot of people. And like I said, that message might be just a little bit of humor for the day. and it might be, hey, think about what's going on with this particular situation. So we'll get into all that, but let's just kind of start at the beginning. So where were you born? I was born in Memphis, Tennessee. And what year? 1987.

1987. Yeah. Dang. Okay. Yeah. That really makes me feel old. That does legit. Where were you in 87?

Because I graduated high school in 1989. Yeah. So, yeah, that's pretty wild. Was that your rock band era? Well, yeah, so no, I was like getting ready to, wait, 87. Oh, yeah, I was going to hardcore shows and I was pretty much, yeah, singing in a hardcore band, playing bass too in a hardcore band, sometimes guitar, very poorly on all fronts. I feel like you're kind of still in your rock band era, by the way. Side note.

Hey, let's face it. We're still on that git box from time to time. That's real. Let's go. And where? Memphis. Memphis, Tennessee, yeah. And so what was the family scenario growing up?

You know, it wasn't the best. It was complicated, to say the least. My mom and dad got married when they were really young. Like how young? 19, 20, I believe. My father struggled with alcoholism his whole life, and he was abusive as well. So they split when I was really young. Like how young?

I think three. Okay. And I don't really have a lot of memories of it. And was he around after that or was he just gone? It's kind of on and off to kind of offset the child support he would have to do. you'd have to pay. And, you know, my mom did the best she could. Excuse me, did the best she could with me and my brother.

But, you know, she had been through a lot. And, you know, it was really hard. And, you know, just kind of did the best she could. So what did you do most of your growing up? I mean, I like to really kind of think of it differently. But I was just kind of mischievous is probably the best way to say. That was a little bit of a scoundrel. You know, my childhood, it was just,

just, I mean, it was a real latchkey kid, kind of left to my own devices a lot. And you said you had a brother? I have a little brother, but like a little brother? Yeah, a little brother. Okay. And so I was like, you know, I would take care of him and like, like we'd have uncles and stuff in and out. But like for the most part, like we would do like a lot of, it's this out.

So it's like church league stuff. So like do vacation Bible schools in the summer and different things like that. And then, you know, just like going to the church or like kind of moving around. It was kind of weird when I think about it. Real kind of Peter Panney, if I'm being honest. What do you mean Peter Panney? Like, I just kind of felt like I was in charge of myself at way too young of an age. Like, I didn't really have a lot of structure.

I didn't really have a lot of people that were, like, looking out for me. And so, like, it was just kind of like, it was my job to get up and go in the morning to, like, go to the bus stop and, you know, and things like that. And then my mom would come home when she was done with work. And, like, that's when we would see her. And then I would get up in the morning. What'd your mom do for work? Just different jobs, real estate. And, like, and I think she's in.

financial stuff now and doing different things like that. So you're just figuring it out. Yeah. I mean, it's really, it's really, really hard coming from a working class background when there's no, there is no path that you're aware of to like break that cycle of a lot of its addiction and poverty, to be honest. And the only thing that really helps people break that cycle usually is the military. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's legit. 100% true. I think Jordan Peterson has a speech about it. about how it's the number one thing you can use to change your socioeconomic status. Boom. And, you know, like my grandmother, I remember I was like, I want to go to college. And it's my great grandmother.

She grew up during the Depression and, like, jarred and pickled stuff her whole life. Because, like, they grew up without food. So, like, she was like, it will happen again. And I don't blame. I mean, she was prepared. Like, she was day one. She's right. She was right.

She was not wrong. And, you know, and as a side note, she would always give us. the same, she had so many grandchildren, she gives the same gift every year. And it was underwear and socks. And that was, she's like, just be prepared. You know, you never know. And I told her I wanted to go to college. And she's like, don't do that. Choose a trade. Choose a trade. Wow. What year did she tell you that? Not 2000s, 90s. You know, she's like, choose a trade. Stick with that and things like that. That's awesome advice. Right. That's even more applicable today. Yes. Yes. But she was like, always do something you can do with your hands and always provide for yourself.

You know, this is a woman who, like, gardened her whole life and did all these things. Like, she used to make us pick blackberries and stuff to make jam out of muskidine jelly. Have you ever had that? I'm not. It's, like, a very specific southern thing. And so, like that-

Would you say muskidine jelly? Yeah, muskidine jelly, yeah. Okay. It's like a grape. I don't know. I only know it, like, if it's around, like, Memphis butts up to Mississippi, so, like, around there. Okay.

So are you going to, when you get to high school? Yeah. Like, do you stay in one consistent high school the whole time? No, I don't. What's happening with that? So I change schools every year until my sophomore year. Because, like I said, my home life is just chaotic. There's no other way around it.

My mom was doing a lot of stuff to provide the best she could. She just didn't have the emotional or skills to be able to do it. And, you know, I try to have as much grace as I can looking back on that, but it's just, as a parent, it's something that I don't understand. because like as a parent you need to really develop a place for your child so they can you know thrive become independent strong and then leave which sucks because that's your whole goal is to make them be strong enough to leave but I don't know it just it just wasn't the environment I was raised in so I hopped around a few different schools high schools because

I was kind of a troublemaker I think I don't know what it was I was just kind of always doing stuff and I eventually ended up at a very, very small independent Baptist private school with a class of 28 people. And that's where I finished out my high school with. Were you playing sports or anything? I would try, but like honestly, we wouldn't pay dues or stuff or like I was never in a school long enough to be there to be consistent. I did wrestling one summer for a year. Better than nothing. You'll tell you that. Oh, it was, it was great. It was great because like, it taught me it taught me a lot like I remember like cutting weight and stuff like I did it all through eighth grade um through um most of my freshman year and uh that was fun so how old were you what

what grade were you in when september 11th happened eighth grade and well do you remember it very clearly what was going on so i was we were supposed to go to the bus and um so it's central time zone so it had already happened around the time we were walking to the bus stop and my mother called She said stay home. I don't know what's happening, but you have to stay home. And I was like, okay, and she's like, turn on the TV, just stay home. And so I told my brother, like, we were literally walking out the door. And it was like, sit down, and I turned on the TV, and I could see the one tower burning.

And then I saw the second plane make impact live. And I was just like, oh, oh, my God. Like, I can't, I can't believe this is happening. And, like, I just sat there, like, the rest of the world for forever. So you're in eighth grade when that happened? Yes, sir. What did you think, like in your eighth grade mind, what did you think was going to happen in the world

once you realized that was a terrorist attack? That's a very, very good question. You guys should stick with this podcast itself. No, so what's interesting about that time is the internet's kind of developing then around eighth grade. So we had a laptop with, I mean, that a laptop. We had a desk, like a family computer that was used for like work and stuff and to type things on.

And so there is that small amount of disruption that's happening with like information and stuff. So the world was becoming smaller, but until that moment, New York was just a place that I had only seen in movies. I didn't really have that direct connection of like, that's my country. Does that make sense?

I was just a kid. And then when I realized that another entity had attacked my country, I just remember being like, this is not going to stand. Like I'm not. I'm not, I want to fight. I could just feel it.

It's not that New York wasn't a part of my life before. It's just like I just seemed almost imaginary to me because it was just outside of my realm. And then like I was like someone attacked America? No, that's not happening. So I never really thought through this before. So when the first Gulf War kicked off, I was in the, well, I joined the Navy as that was happening. And so I'm in the Navy when we're massing troops on the border. And we're going to go to war with Iraq is like what the word is because they had invaded Kuwait.

We're going to go help them. So this is in my mind. I thought, oh, this is exactly what happened with World War II. You know, like, oh, the Nazis roll into Czechoslovakia. They roll into Poland. We go to war. This is four years of just total destruction of the world. Yeah.

I thought that's what was about to happen. And the news reports were that there was going to be 40,000 U.S. casualties in the first 48 hours. I remember watching that. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like where? I was kind of. You know, because when you're young, you just want to go to war and everything. So I was kind of like, okay, well, this is going to be, this is going to be my life.

And death, most likely, let's go. And then you found, so that war lasts 72 hours. So then when, when 9-11 happens, I was actually in college at the time. I was in the Navy, but I was active duty, going to college because I had been commissioned. I didn't have a degree. So when that happened, I thought, oh, I wish I'm going to. to miss this. It's going to be, you know, some strikes will happen. I didn't think that we were going to do what we did at such a level. I definitely didn't think, oh, this is going to be here.

We're facing two decades worth of war, which is what we were about to do. We're about to do 20 years of war. And I thought we had, I thought it was going to be two months, three months, like, maybe, maybe we'd do some targeted strikes. We'd kill a bunch of terrorists with bombs. Maybe, like, maybe there'd be some special operations that would happen. I thought I was going to miss the whole thing. Which actually, looking back, it sounds like a really good plan. You know, a really good plan. Like, hey, we're going to bomb the shit out of some places that have terrorists in them.

And we're going to keep a closer watch on them and not let him do anything like that again. Seems like a pretty good plan looking back. So it's just interesting. I can't imagine when I was an eighth grade, if something like that happened, I would have thought it would have been World War II. Because I even thought the first Gulf War was going to be a significant. at a minimum, I thought the first Gulf War was going to be like Korea or Vietnam. I thought we had three, four years of near-peer competition on the battlefield. Like I thought, hey, it's the Iraqis, they have tanks, they have soldiers, they've got a big army.

This is going to be a war. And it just wasn't, it just wasn't a thing. So, yeah, your perception can be very strange when you're young. Well, it's interesting you say that my uncle was in the first Gulf War. Okay. And he was in the Marines. And he had, he never really talked about it,

but he had, he would be like, it was just, he once said a joke. He's like, I was on leave longer than I was in war. And I was like, okay.

And so like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, like,

even in eighth grade, like, I, I just, it was the way people were talking, like that, I, I don't,

this sounds probably should, it felt in the moment like it was the Pearl Harbor of the modern era. 100%. Because you couldn't, I just remember being like you couldn't escape it. Like I would roll to other channels and they were still talking about it. And then the other things that happened very similarly to Pearl Harbor is like,

those aren't French fries. Those are freedom fries. Like all these like weird little things. You know, the Dixie Chicks got canceled. Like Toby Keith did all this stuff he was doing. Where were you when the world stopped turning? Like all this stuff like it just seemed like lights turned on in a house.

And even though I just said 100% seem like Pearl Harbor, I said that too quickly because it seemed like Pearl Harbor. But I thought the response. would be some airstrikes, maybe some quick ground operations, but the last time we were at war in the first Gulf War, it was 72 hours long. And so I thought to myself, okay, this is going to be very fast. I was in college, I was like, I'm gonna miss this thing. And I called the officer, Dealer, who was a friend of mine, I said, hey, sir, please get me back to

a team. And he said to me, this is gonna last a long time. Really? And I didn't believe him. And I said, I'll go to college when I'm old, please. And he said, no, you finish out. And I didn't have much longer to finish out. So I finished out, went to a team, and I was in Iraq a few months later. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

But I did not think it was going to be what it was. And if you look at it, you know, now that you look at things, now that I'm older, look at things with the more strategic perspective, that the first Gulf War, they had a very clear objective. It was just to get the Iraq, get Iraqis, get the Iraqi government and military out of Kuwait. Did that. And like, okay, we're done. And that was that.

When we went into Iraq the second time, it was like, what was the goal? What was the objective? Can you explain that to me? And no one was asking those questions. There was no real clear mission. And so what you end up with is just mission creep over a long extended period of time. And we had the disease of victory because the first Gulf War was over so quickly and Grenada was over quickly and Panama was over quickly.

So I had those things in my brain too that when 9-11 happened. I thought yeah, this isn't gonna be I definitely if I would have to put money on it Put put put money on two decades worth of war. I never would have guessed that I don't think anybody would have unless I would have added the calculus of bad leadership Into the equation which I didn't understand as well at the time now When things happen the the biggest factor in my equation is bad leadership like when when when things are happening globally, I just put bad leadership as the biggest number in the equation. It's the

most heavily weighted number in the equation is, yeah, we're going to have leaders that make dumb decisions. And so if you think something's going to go relatively smoothly, inject bad leadership, and then you're going to get a different outcome than you anticipate. So that's a good formula. Yeah. No, no, it makes sense. Yeah. So did your, did your uncle influence you at all as you, as you started, you know, thinking about the military? Well, he did. He had, I mean, he was probably the most consistent male role model, like, outside of, like, Han Solo and Indiana Jones and Doc Holiday in my life.

You know, I know both two of them are Harrison Ford characters, but they're different people. And he had, I mean, because he was my uncle. He came from the same background I did, and he went on to, you know, go to med school and stuff and he was one who talked to me about the GI Bill and all these things and like I can't stress enough I was just talking to Chris Craighead about this is that the military gets such a bad rap in the sense of like there is this wild great adventure that can literally change your family for generations and it's right ahead of you and you don't have to go to war to do that but like the the gift of service that you get you know I always say that like I find the best version of myself and

the service of others and like you get that when you you join the military and then also you can like go to college, start a family. Like all these things can happen from it. But it's just not viewed that way anymore. It's kind of disheartening. It's a weird too when you're younger, when someone's younger and like I was 18 when I joined the military. And for the program that I did, it was a six year commitment.

To go to the teams. To go to get a chance to go to Buds was a six year commitment. So I was like, okay, that's what we're doing. But if you think about that, that's like what? One third of the time of my life when I was 18. was another six years. It seemed like a long time. It didn't seem like long to me

because I was thinking I was going to do 50 years like as long as you can stay in. That's what I'm doing. But if you're thinking, oh, I want to get some college money or whatever, but it's going to cost me four years. And the other thing that people miss out on is they think all of the entire time in the military

is like boot camp, which it's not. It's not. After boot camp, you begin to be treated more like a human. And actually substantially more as you know, you're in longer and all that stuff.

So your uncle was telling you a little bit about the Marine Corps. Yeah. And what did he do in the Marine Corps? I believe he was motor tea. Just getting after that motor team. He went open contract. I mean, when he went in, it was the days of like they just kind of stamped you on the arm. I was going to say when he went in, that's what there was.

Yeah. You were going to get, you were going to do what the Marine Corps told you to do. They didn't, they didn't have that adjustment where now you can actually have a little bit more job selection. You can pick a field. Yeah. That's as narrow as it gets. Yeah. and the field's wide and, you know, you can try and influence it, but he was open contract.

And, you know, he went on, become a surgeon, all these different things. And so, like, I had seen that firsthand. And, you know, after 9-11 going into high school and stuff, like, I, you know, I thought about college, but, like, I did a semester at the University of Memphis. It didn't stick. I don't want to brag here, but I had a 1.67 GPA. So. You were on the path. I was, I was on a path. It just wasn't a good one. It was not a righteous one. So was one semester you did. That was one semester because I was still what I, I was like flirting with the idea because I was, I was, this is too, again, so this is now jump cut. We're in 2007.

Iraq's really going. You're probably on your like 400,000th mission by that point. And, but like what's also happening to my generation is live leak. And all of the videos, all of that stuff is flooding the world. And I was like, that's what you get. to do like that's what happens and it's just like do bump bump and then the guy goes and like a 40 mite might comes out and you're like oh that's what I want that's what I want that's what I want yeah and um you know I'm seeing that stuff and even then my my cousin who

was he was about four years older than me Mitch Cannon he was he had gone to a Fallujah and he was an AV mechanic and I believe it was the second push through and he was like I was just in a jump seat and then they started losing guys and then he was stacking on doors and so he like and to see him he had he had ribbons he had more ribbons in my drill instructors i remember this but he was like big and burly and stood up straight and had a has a sergeant rank on him and i was like dude there's something you know you see him right you're like yeah kind of i kind of want that but i had still not committed i still not committed so i did a semester got that 1.67 and then you know i was like i i think i had already gone to the recruiter and

They didn't even have to try. I just walked in and said, my name's Zachary Bell. I want to be a rifleman in the United States Marine Corps. And they go, whoa, buddy. Whoa. And I took the Azab. I did well enough to do whatever I wanted. And I was like, 03 infantry.

We're not messing around. I want to be a rifleman. Put me on the front. Well, you can do it. They pitch you on like, you can do this. It's kind of whatever. You know, every Marine's a rifleman. That's not true.

It's not say that every Marine doesn't have rifle training. that there's a difference, but there is the trade craft associated with being a combat infantry rifleman, and that was my job day in and day out. Yeah. What is the big difference between the riflemen and a combat infantry riflemen? Yes, yes, there is. Like, because if everyone's a rifleman, then everyone's a mechanic, then everyone's a pilot, then everyone's this and that.

But they weren't asking me to fix the heloes. You know, they were asking me to locate and close with, and that's what I wanted to do. So how long did it take you to get processed? And yeah, 2000. So my last deployment was in 2006. Yeah. And we kind of, we kind of just were a little bit behind, like, every single guy in a platoon having a helmet cam and a, and a GoPro and all that. So we didn't have, we didn't have that.

We had, like, a couple guys that got issued helmet cams for some, like, experimental things. So we didn't really have that. We didn't, we just didn't have it. And, but, yeah, the following deployments, like, you start talking about 2007. Now, all of a sudden, every freaking guy had a GoPro attack. to his weapon and his helmet, facing two directions. So you started getting some seriously first person observation

of what was going down. It was incredible. It was incredible. And like the internet for all the stuff that has now with regulation, that didn't exist then, which I don't know how I feel about that. But like it was like if you wanted to see something, you went to LiveLeak or like there was E-bombs.

Is LiveLeak still around? I don't think it is. I think it's just Twitter now. Like you can just. go anywhere and see stuff now, but I remember typing up stuff like the Battle of Fallujah, the Battle of Vermont, and you could just see a guy be like, right, and they're just like doing it. And it just, I was like, that's, that's what I want. That's, that's what I wanted. And they didn't have to try. I, so, um, how long was it before you shipped out? Like 30 days from the time. I,

not 30 days. Um, I think when I, so I left, I officially enlisted in February of 2007. So like, maybe I was still in college. So let's say October's when I committed to the debt. And they like gave me a date. And I was like, let's do that. Okay. So you had a pretty good length of time hanging around. Did you do anything prepare?

Did you run or anything? Do you push-ups or anything like that? I mean, a little bit. They had like the pulleys and stuff that were doing. But to be honest, I was more concerned with spending time with my girlfriend who would later become my wife. And, you know, she was the one who had actually told me, you know, my wife, Christy had told me, like, from the very beginning.

that she thought that I could do it. You know, she thought that, you know, I could serve in the Marines. A lot of people didn't. A lot of people in my life were like, ah, you're not going to do it. Because, I mean, it is war. People were dying and stuff. But, like, I couldn't, there was this thing inside me, this fire that was burning that I literally couldn't deny it.

And, I mean, so we'd actually met through her cousin, right? Her cousin came home before his deployment to Iraq in 2006 for his father's 50th birthday. And I'd known this family for such a long time, and they're very good people. And it was a surprise for his dad. And so I went and picked him up at the airport. And I came in and brought him and they were like, oh, yeah, it's like this big surprise. And I look across this room and there's this gorgeous absolute bombshell of a girl. And I go up to Luke and I go, hey, Luke, my brother in Christ, I introduce you to every person that's cool.

Like, who is that? And he's like, oh, that's my cousin. That's my cousin Christy. She lives in Nashville. and I go, your cousin Christy lives in Nashville. I've known you for quite a long time. We've never talked about your cousin Christy

that lives in Nashville. And he goes, well, I don't think you were ready for it. And I go, well, you're probably right. I tell you what, though, I'm going to marry that girl. And I did. Damn. Yeah. How long was it that you knew her

or that you were, like, going out with her before you got married? A year. So were you married before you left in the Marine Corps? No, we got engaged, not long after I enlisted and then married after that. Okay. But when you know, you know,

I don't, you know, we've been married since 2007, you know, and I don't know. I don't recommend anything for anybody. I just know that like when I saw her, when I was with her, I knew I always wanted to be the best, I always wanted to be the best version of myself when I was around her. And I was like, that's got to be what true love is. Well, you're still, you're still at it with her, so that's a good sign. Yeah, yeah. It's incredible.

I don't know why. Maybe she's like, you know, I'm a real DIY project. I think, but you know. Jack. Guys are really laughing about that. So you leave for boot camp. How's boot camp? Shock.

Are you good? No. I mean, so like boot camp stories, I always do like an eye roll and people have them. But like I found it to be the most hysterical, entertaining time of my life up to that point. What's the language? Can I swear? Say whatever I want. Of course.

So like I just, the things they would say, I felt like they were stand-up comedians. They'd be like, look at this fucking guy right here. You know, like, and they would tear into people and I would just be like looking ahead. Because it's, you know, people get too wrapped around the axle of like they don't, you know, they don't want, you know, recruit well-like to fail. Like they think that it's, they want you to fail. They don't. They really want you to succeed, but they are trying to push you. Like I had this one guy next to me who was 30 when he enlisted and he, yes.

and he just got torn up from the floor up all the time. He was not in the best shape, and they were on him like a dog on a bone. I don't want to say to Dave at all, or even allude to it, but they were like, hey, a recruit so-and-so, you look so fucking gross, you disgust me. I don't need know why anyone, whatever the beat. Lord have mercy, this recruit doesn't know either. And, like, he would just, he would feed into it. And he goes, oh, my God, you smell like, you smell like death.

I tell you're going to get run over as soon as you get to Iraq. If you even go, you coward. Like, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And like he ate it up, but I was in a rare situation where, you know, I was much lighter than I am now. I was like one seven, one 10 going in. Oh, dang. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Did that bring you extra focus? The extra focus was they made me a double ration in boot camp. They feed you more. And that was hard. That was actually hard for the first month. And then after that, a part of me like engaged in my head that I didn't know existed. But like when I left boot camp, I was like 145.

And like I was eating, I was drinking two glasses of milk every meal. Like literally they would give me cake every, every, like every meal. And I had to eat it. And so I sat down first. What do they, how do they explain that to you? What do they say to you? And they just look at me and they go, what the fuck? You know, they were like, what's wrong with you?

And I was like, I don't know. I was 18. I mean, like I just, I was just kind of like scrawny. I don't, I don't know. I was, you know, I had been doing fitness and stuff like that. Dude, 107 pounds. I mean, that's like a wrestling weight for guys that. are just naturally really small.

So like humans. That's really why when I was in like eighth and ninth grade, the wrestling coach had come up to me because like I was, you know, I'm five, five, seven on a good day, you know? And like I'm always, at that time, especially I'm leaner in general, right? And so it's like one seven, one 10ish.

I remember something around there because they were just looking to me and like, oh my God, like I was just lean. And they like, you know, you do like the end doc stuff, Like you stand over like, so you go through receiving when you get there and you like get all your stuff and they're like, hey, you know, this, this here is, this here are called, you know, go fasters. They do what I call it world building when you first get there because they teach you like a pen is not a pen. It's an ink stick. You know, when they do those things because they're terraforming, right?

You know, tennis shoes are go fasters. You know, this here is the bulkhead. This here's, you know, the deck, all those things. And blouse, camies, trousers, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I was standing over the thing and like going. going through medical and they give me the shot and they go, how much do you weigh? And I remember I went in there at like one timbo. It was like one seven by that point because I've been up for a few days and you're not eating.

They're like double rat and I was like, what does that mean? You eat first and you eat all of it. That's all they said to me. And I was like, okay. Do they put a sign on you or something? I had to wear a tag. I had to wear a tag. No kidding.

Because everyone wants it. Oh, yeah. Right? Because most people don't have that problem. Most people, they're cutting. Like my 30 year old friend, he, he, he's, he's, he's, you know, he's, you know, he's would have he would have other end of the spectrum he was the other end of the what do they call him uh he's like private pile right no they called him fat body they

call them gross yeah all of it you know this is what they called him don't cancel me this is what they called him not me but like are disgusting fat body yeah you make me sick I don't know why a woman would ever be like literally and I would just stand there and just be like and like I broke a few times and I got popped for it but that's all right but like so I would go in there and boot camp chow hall ladies are ruthless like they're like what do you want recruit and they just like scoop it and they throw it at you but i was always the first one that they would see so i'd have my little tag that i would like put on my blouse and i would put on my button and it was a double rat you know bell z whatever in my information and they would look at it and they would like scoop it and they

would be very like i don't know and so but it's it was a race for me it was a race because i got punished if i didn't finish everything that was what was worse So, you know, desserts every meal, big glasses of milk, every meal, whatever entree that I don't remember. And I'm just, I'm literally just picking it up with my one hand, one's down here. And I'm just, hurry up, hurry up, Bell. Ooh, I bet you like that, don't you boy? I bet you like that cake, huh? And just like, dessert, nurse for crew, don't you talk?

That's disgusting. Were you getting stronger too? Like everything was happening. It was like I was in a montage for an 80s movie. It was insane. It was literally, it was like I learned about nutrition. for the first time ever, like, you know, I came in there. I think I did like 12 pull-ups or something like that.

By the time I left, I was, you know, the Marine Corps PT test at that time was 20 pull-ups, three-mile run, 18 minutes, and then 100 sit-ups. And when I left there, it was either 17 or 18 pull-ups I did. And I got a first class. And then my goal after that physically was like, I will get 20 pull-ups. And like, you know, when you're working out and fitness or anything, as you both know, you have these goals and then like you chase them forever. and then when you're not looking, you end up getting them, if that makes sense.

And it was like the first time I was like, oh, like, I'm strong, like, and I'm different. And like, I'm bigger. Like, it was, it was insane. So the Marine Corps turned you into a man straight up. That's what the Marine Corps does. Yeah, they don't play around. I can't recommend it enough, yeah. So you, and this is all at Paras Island because you're-Person.

Paras Island, yeah. You graduate from boot camp? Yes. So February, what's three? months later, May, right? Mayish, right? Something like that because I remember I got it, yeah, Mayish and then they're like, you know, you graduate boot camp, my wife's there. So you're married now? No, not, no, it's not my wife. She's my girlfriend. And, you know, we, she like, sees me. And I remember, like, wow, you look different. I was like, yeah. But, you know, get your 10 days of leave. We hung

out every bit of it. And then they're like, hey, you're off to the school of infantry. Camp Geiger, Carolina. And, you know, I got dressed in my pickle suit. It's what we call the alphas, you know, the cover. And went there and went to the school of infantry. And that's when, like, all my friends who were like, you know, non-combat jobs or non-infantry jobs, they like went to MCT, which is 21 days of them being in the field. And then I went for like 30 months, basically. I mean, I can't remember how long it is, actually. And when you're at school of infantry, you're trained to be a rifleman. What's the day-to-day looking like?

So what happens at first, there's like a receiving week thing, and then you get an introduction to all the different instructors, and you take like an aptitude test of some sort. And the way it works is you're like in this big like amphitheater, and there's these different instructors based on the MOS. So there's O311, Infantry Rifleman, O331, machine gunter, O341,

Morterman, O3-51, assaultman. and there's tow gunners, but they weren't there. And so what they do is they like... What's the assault man? The assaultmen, they had the small, and they were like a demo expert that would be attached to like... Got it. It's mainly a weapons platoon job that they would like attach to like,

you know, do shape charges and stuff. So, but it doesn't exist anymore. The tow gunner, I think, still exists. I don't know. But the way it works is they're like, all right, which job do you want to pick? You like list or whatever. And then all the like heads of the class

will come out and be like, hey, my name's Sergeant So-and-So. I'm an 0-351. Do you like shooting rockets? Do you like fucking explosions? I'm your guy, right? And I was like, oh, that's cool. 0-3-41. Hey, my name's, you know, Sergeant, whatever. I'm an O-3-41. You like playing spade. You like dropping rounds. Come over here with the mornment. We'll have a good time. Right. And then, you know, there's, hey, my name's Sergeant So-and-so. I'm a machine gunner. And they look like full backs. Yeah, they're all jacked. Yeah, they're all like, you like reaching out and taking the beating so to the round and touching

and you come over here with a man. And it's just like, everybody's like riled up. And I'll never forget. I can't remember his name, but I wish I did. Let's say his name's Sergeant Johnson. Sergeant Johnson comes up there and he looks around and he goes, takes out a dip, puts a dip in, he goes, you want to be in charge of those dumbasses? You'd be in 0-3-11 coming to my class.

And that's all I wrote down on my paper was 0-3-11, and I just gave it to him. And the way I went, not like I had any idea over it, but I was like, I'm not giving them an option. So that's what I did And how was that school? School, I mean, school's great I mean, but it's like anything else You don't really learn the trait to get to your unit But like you know, you're just doing hikes

Like a you know 5K 10 15, 20 You're trying to learn stuff You're basically, this is where like the real stuff Of like team wedge squad column Stuff like that starts to come into your mind Are you getting opportunities to lead patrols Are you? Yeah

Are they sometimes like all right You're in charge, you're in charge Like at Ranger school Where you get rotated through leadership positions? They do. but it's not as like formalized as that because it's such a big class and you don't really even understand

what's happening at the moment. You're just like, oh? You're just like trying not to, you're only, you're really upset that it's still kind of like boot camp, right? And you're just trying to not mess up and then get to liberty on the weekend. Like that's your whole goal.

But like it's just, you're just doing a hug. How much liberty would you get? Would you get like Friday night, Saturday night? Yeah, and then come back Sunday morning. Yeah. And you're like going out. What was the freaking trouble?

level for the boys after boot camp and now they're there and now they get liberty on the weekends they're going out with a fat wallet full of cash i mean how they keep guys out of trouble they don't like i mean like you you have like a buddy system and you travel with like your friends and stuff i mean a good friend of mine he went to winston salem with a dude in our platoon because his family this guy said he's like come out my family's all this stuff whatever and they went to winston Salem and the other Marine just didn't come back. And it was his ride back. So like, and he called the, he called the unit. I mean, so I was like, hey, I'm stuck. I'm stuck in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. I can't come back. Can you all like not like mark me AWOL or whatever? And his name's Ace and

Brian Archer. He would call him ace. And I was like, Ace, where are you? Like I'm texting him. I was like, where are he's like, I'm stuck here. So-and-so won't come back. Like, it's a whole thing. And they eventually got him and like they put him away for a little bit and I think they separated him. I don't know what happened, but like that's what would happen. Weird stuff like that. Were you, since you had a girlfriend at the time, were you drinking and stuff? Or were you just? You know, there are guys that recognize and very few, very few.

So you were just wrapped up full on. Let's go. I mean, like, we're hanging out with the boys and stuff. But like, so what was different is my cousin was still in and he picked me up. And when he showed up, he was like, what? Like, he was a sergeant. And he had deployed more than most. of the people that were there at that point.

And at that time, as in the military, if you deployed, you were, that was currency. If you had a combat action ribbon, that was, didn't really, nobody touched. Is this now 08? 2007, 2007, yeah. 2007, yeah. 2007, yeah. 2007, yeah. So you still had guys that hadn't deployed yet.

Yeah, yeah. There was like that weird kind of low because y'all had just left Iraq and like it was becoming the green zone and all those things were happening. And so he would pick me up and we would hang out and like my, my, my, my, my, my, you know, girlfriend, my wife, girlfriend at the time would like come through and we would just like go to movies and do stuff and like hang out with my friends. And then. So you were a little bit more chill. Yeah. I mean, not as chill as I was when I got to my unit.

But yeah, I mean, that's really where like you hang out with the boys a lot and you're doing a lot of that stuff. Was there anything that was a challenge for you at SOI? I don't think so. Yeah. Because honestly, what I love about the military is how clear and concise it is when you get out of your own way of like this is the task. we have to accomplish, do that. Yeah, I always feel that way about the Marine Corps. Like, and I don't, I can speak for seal training.

Seal training is freaking crazy. Like, in terms of you just having bad luck and everything falls apart. Yeah. Like, you get hurt. You, there's some people that just aren't good in the water. There's some people that sink. There's some people that, they just have problems. Yeah.

And you're untrainable. You're untrainable. you're just not going to make it. Yeah. And it seems like the Marine Corps does a much better job of taking someone that's whatever you were, 18 years old, 107 pounds. Yeah, it was like. And with no training whatsoever and turning that guy into a combat infantry rifleman.

That's what they do. They do it all the time. We're the best at it. I agree. You heard it here first. No, it's, I mean, in SOI, it's really just about getting you to your unit because your unit is where they're really going to like separate you. you put you in your different companies, your different platoons.

If you're not good, they're going to push you up to battalion. You'll push papers while I'm pushing rounds. You know, that's just the way it goes. But as far as, like, getting you to the place where, like, they're creating a product, like they're really, really good about that. And the God's honest truth is it's not that complicated. You're just walking in a circle, dude. You know, like, I mean, that's all you did.

That's all I did. We walked in circles, right? You know, there's different ways we got there. But at the end of the day, checkpoint 1, 35, 7, 9, 11, or 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12. Like that's just it Route one, route two. Like, but you don't even know any of that stuff yet. You're just like,

team wedge squad. Like you're just like doing the hand signals or like on me. And like that's the stuff they're teaching you there. Yeah. Like trying to like really learn stuff that you'll probably carry on. Yeah, you know, I had James Webb on the podcast and it was wild because he went like graduated from the academy, went to the basic school.

Mm-hmm. And then went to officer infantry school. And then I think, I think 12 days of leave. Yeah. Got to Vietnam. It got, they pointed, they drove him out or took him out on patrol, pointed up at a ridge and was like, hey, your platoon's up there. He went up there.

There was no one to relieve. The guy that he was taking the place of had been wounded and gone. So it was like a platoon sergeant that was running it. And he's in charge now. And that night they got into like a big contact and he was calling for fire and supporting arms. And I asked him, I was like, I said, were you ready? And he said, yes. which is freaking impressive for someone to come out of officer candidate training or, you know, whatever, officer infantry training, and then show up and just be in combat, ready to roll and executing.

So the Marine Corps does a damn good job. They do. It's the perks of being like, you know, a quarter of the size of the Army. We're real reduced. We're small. We're focused. Like it's the Marine Corps lives and dies off a small unit leadership and building into that. aspects that you need to be trained for the job ahead of you and the person needs to be trained.

Like, you're like always looking down and looking up, right? So you're training to be up and ready for the guys coming to replace you. And it's like that at all levels. You know, I mean, every infantry officer we had that came out, especially during that time, they were ridiculous, especially the Navy guys. There's a few dudes to like, like, want to do buds or whatever. And I don't know what happened, but they would always come out and they're just like, jacked.

They're kind of what you want to see as an infantry platoon commander. like you the ones that always I didn't like were the lean ones because that means they were just going to run into yeah they're going to run until you're vomiting you know like you're just like come on come on sir like come on let's not do this but um no it was you know that was it's it's all like fun but like when i got to when they came to pick us up and they they showed up in the buses and they're looking around they go you whatever you whatever and they looked at me in my group and they go one six get on the bus and I was like okay and I got on a bus and I had never so this is when you graduated this is when we graduate so I it's there's not a lot of pomp and serve you get orders do you get orders we were

the orders were this group goes to one six this one goes to eight this one goes like whatever that's as far as it goes right you get told what battalion you're going to and like we did a little ceremony they're like class whatever blah blah blah blah blah blah but get out of here you get a paper get out leave cool Roger that um bus comes by if some of the like NCOs were tasked with it who were upset that they with it came to pick us up and then it's we drove on the camp was union and I'd seen it before but I'd never seen it seem if that makes sense and then like we just start doing you know we go to siff which is there's a big debate over that do you know this that what do you call it where you get your gear do you call it siff or cif I guess we would just call it supply well we

would call it so people every time I say it's called siff people are like it's cif because that's what the army calls it you know central issue facility we always called it siff well I saying fob yeah and I said fob to a Vietnam sog guy and he's like what it's it's it's it's ill I was like F-O-B and he's like oh F-O-B yeah so they didn't call it Fob so I now I call it Fobb yeah I'm on board with the boys did he call you a boot after he's like I am a boot yeah he's like all right jaco you boot yeah those guys oh we're next level for sure but like we go there you get your gear all that stuff you get your gas masks what does CIF stand for

issue facility. But we called it SIF. That's what I was told. I mean, you don't know. Some guys like get in line at SIF. It's where you turn in your gear. It's where you get your gear and you turn in. And they would like look at like whenever you leave, they're like this pack's been worn. And you're like, yeah. And they're like 200, whatever it is. But they give you all the stuff that you never use because you end up buying better stuff, especially during that time. And I just remember they're like, okay, you're going to your unit. And then we go to like the battalion office and all my friends, literally all of them except one other dude. They're like, Charlie, Bravo, Charlie, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie.

It's like a draft. The draft of Dumbs is what I called it. So they're like Alpha Brahma. And like they hit me Alpha, Bravo, Charles. All my friends go over there and me and like three other people go to Alpha Company. We're dragging our gear. And as we're doing it, the Marines had just got back from the field. And they're throwing everything they can at us, cat calling us.

It was terrifying. They're like, woo, boots, hurry the fuck up. Just everything they can. As we're just like, you're looking. up and you know these are camp was human barracks they you know they've just got trauma and mold in them like and so they're just like screaming as you hurry up run and like it's for like the first week it was a nightmare it was an absolute nightmare and one six was just coming back from romadi they had been back they had just got back from leave and it was they had it was worse they had just got

back from leave and they had just got back from the field so it was their first post leave field op they're sweaty and they're just like sweaty yeah yeah it's like it's like it's like it's animals that have been lit loose and your boots you haven't deployed anywhere and they hate you so like it's it's a lot yeah so when I was in Ramadi was I was with 3-8 for the beginning and then one six came and took their place probably about a month before I left yeah so this was like they did that they did their six seven-month tour or whatever and then came home and yeah so you were they were definitely rowed they were rowdy they were rowdy 210 days as what they always say

that's what you're down so it's like seven months but like Like they were rowdy. And then you have no idea what's happening. You just see a sea of people. They're all dressed like you. They're like different versions of you. You know what I'm saying? Like all military people are kind of like,

we're all different versions of the same person's what I say. But I'm looking for my team leader. That's all I'm looking for. I'm looking for my team leader. Find Kelly. Find Kelly. Where's Lance Corporal Kelly? This guy comes out to me a big dip in.

He goes, hey, I'm Lance Corporal Kelly. Don't make my life hard or I'll make yours hard. Good to go? And I was like, good to go, Lance Corporval. when he goes, all right, don't fuck up. And like he was gone. Like he was just gone. Your room is this room.

Boom, boom, boom. Went to my room, sat down and just that whole night. Seniors banging on. Get out here, boots. Get out here. Pick this up. Boom, boom, boom. You know, plotting points on a gap with a gas mask going in the shower,

running around. I don't want to use the word hazing. It was training. There was training. Individualized training. Very individualized. It seemed like it was only like 12 of us. They were given this individualized training.

And it was just like that for a week. But it's just like anything else. You keep your head down. You don't. The one thing you don't do is you don't complain. You don't be like, oh, this is, you pay your dues, right? And none of it was like weird or like inappropriate in a way that like was disrespectful, like to me as a person or derogatory. It was just like, it was just dumb shit, right?

Hey, police call that. You know, and for anyone it doesn't know, or most people should know listen to this. call means picking up trash anywhere you get online pick up trash so you police call like the area where we go formation but while you're doing it all of the seniors are dumping cigarettes and trash behind you as you clean and stuff stuff inside your cargo pockets and they're like and then you go turn around and they go what the fuck you missed all of this and then you're like this will never end and stuff like that so when you're living so you're moving to barracks yeah I live there for like a month what percentage of your company lived in the barracks almost everyone

Almost everyone who wasn't married. Yeah. And so like that's talking like there's 100 guys in there. 200, roughly. Yeah. 200 animals. 200 guys. 200 guys.

Yeah, I was going to say three to a room. Not like regular barracks. So there's a bunk bed. There's a bunk bed. So the boots on the bottom. There's the top rack. That's like the next senior person. And then there was an individualized rack.

That's the most senior person. Two Marines in her room, one of them senior. Yeah, yeah. I'm saying so. You got three. like it's definitely going down. Dude, my friends would tell stuff about like their senior guy just like throwing trash in their bunk being like, pick it up, boot, pick it up boot.

And you're just like, uh, yeah, that's, that's in a crazy environment. It's, I miss it so much. Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, and it's, by that time, I had actually proposed to my wife. And so like they were waiting for all my stuff to switch over. And we had, we had actually decided to get married and we were going to have a wedding in November and so I was like she was like it can't be that bad in the barracks and I showed her once and like that was enough for her to be like never mind you know she would just always

it was like I was making her look at the sun she was just like shocked every time she saw it you know she's like people talk to you like that and I was like please don't say anything just get in the car we got to go yeah so at what point do you start so those guys are coming in by the way they were outstanding they came into Ramadi did a turn did turnover 3-8 and one six was just outstanding. I remember their commanding officer. I remember meeting him just freaking squared away. And you could tell just a pro.

So outstanding guys. And then, of course, they, you know, did a bunch of good fighting in Ramadi. So when they come back, when do you start like a workup? When do you start training for deployment? Immediately. Yeah. And so I was very, very blessed.

I had a really good team leader. Brandon Kelly took very good care of me. invested in me. He actually saved his squad leader's life and got an award for it in Ramadi. There's a sawgunner, long-sword short, got hurt. He pulled him out. Like, he was just this guy and like very thoughtful, very kind to me. I treated him with respect and he like showed me, honestly, like good leadership. You know, took care of me, invested in me and all these things. And from the very beginning, he started teaching me like every bit of the trait. And then I realized I didn't learn anything in SOI, right? Because everything in SOI in the schoolhouse is,

they're very doctrinal. It's like on paper and it's flat. But these guys, they had just left Hermotti. And like that was when I actually started to learn that 1-6 had this incredible legacy of being in historic battles going as far back as Bella Wood and all these different things where you see the French Forteget. And like they have been known for like just terror forming the earth to the will of the Marine Corps. And I was like, holy shit, I'm in a incredible place. Like I'm on the shoulders of giants right now. And it was never lost on me. never lost them because I, you know, I was a boot, so it was my job to clean the battalion office and stuff. There's a company, company, uh, battalion, uh, master guns. He never wore a skibby

shirt and he loved making fun of lieutenants. That was his whole thing. And, um, he'd always be like, he's like, look at some of these things on the wall. Look at this as you're cleaning. This is your legacy. Don't, don't fucking embarrass them. That's what he would say is we're cleaning. And so he'd be like, stop and he'd make us read it. And he would just spend time with us. And I was like, wow, this is actually, this is actually like a historical. workplace. I need to like this wasn't just like luck of the draw. There's a reason, you know, and I need to be respectful of that. People often ask me about culture and size teams and businesses and organizations, but that's one of the things that I explain is that you've got to share your

history. Yeah. So that people understand where, where they came from and the Marine Corps does a great, but a lot of the military does a great job with it. The SEAL teams just started doing a good job. They built new SEAL teams and now the SEAL teams have, you can see the heritage on the walls. You can see the pictures from Vietnam, even going back to World War II. Yeah. And you understand that there's a heritage and a tradition. And so, but the Marine Corps just has been doing that for so long that they know how to do it really well. And like what you're explaining right now is what I try and explain to people.

That's what you're, when you're in a leadership position, that's your job is to make sure that the people that come on board the team understand the tradition and the history and the roots of what. where they came from and where this organization came from. And it just lifts them up. Yeah. And it makes a person want to excel. Like even when I got to Steel Team 1, they had the Medal of Honor guys on the quarterdeck. And you're like, okay, that's the only thing they had on there. Just the Medal of Honor guys.

That's it. That's what we're doing. And so, and that was in the 90s, you know, just a little tiny quarterdeck. But you're like, okay, I get it. That's what we're doing. So it's very important. And the Marine Corps does a great job of that. So you start this workup.

And you're doing exercises. How's it role? I mean, at that time, we were tasked with the 24th Mew, right? And the battalion commander is now brigadier, general Anthony Henderson, one of the most incredible men I've ever known. And, you know, a lot was happening in my personal life at that time. Like I said, we'd gotten married and we were planning our wedding, but we had found out that my wife had gotten pregnant with our first child.

And so like that instantly became everyone's knowledge, even him. How old are you at this point? 19? 19, 20. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. All these things, like life was just moving so quickly, just moving so radically quickly. And, you know, I'd actually had to sit down with him a few times to talk about the stuff.

And he, like, talk to me and, like, all this stuff. And he's like, well, it's okay. We're going on the 24th Mew. He's like, I'll make sure you make every appointment you can and, like, all this stuff. It was very kind to me. And within reason I went as much as I could, but like it was the 24th Mew and it was basically a base, a mobile base, as you know. And like you have all these direct assets and you're just doing like real radical training to prepare for any type of global conflict where you're going. And at this at this time they're like, you guys are going to the Mediterranean.

Now, I'm a boot in a unit with a bunch of guys from Ramadi. They couldn't be happier. They could not be happier. I could not be more. Med Cruz. Oh, yeah. I could not be more unhappy. Because what they're saying to me is like, you're going to be a boot forever, basically.

Because if all that counted at that time was you have to deploy, you have to deploy to a combat zone. The war is still actively going on. I mean, Iraq's kind of, I want to say it's scaling down, but it was like leveling. That's 2008. I mean, it's 2008 with Sodder City. There's all kinds of stuff still going on. Yeah, but it was, it wasn't as, there wasn't as much focus at that time in the sense of like there was at least a plan in place. from my perspective.

And like it seemed like they understood the routine of it is what I'll say. And so I was like, why don't go to Iraq? You know, and they're like, no, there's like green zones. And there was like too many Marines and not enough missions or whatever. That's what they told us. So I was like, okay. And so we're doing really crazy training, you know, at the time it was called Fort Pickett. I think they changed the name of it now.

So like we go there and do like these big 30-day exercises. We're going to the field once a week. You know, Monday through Thursday, you know, go into the. defensive, all these different things, like you're doing training all the time. And it sucks, but I loved it. I absolutely loved it. Because you're hanging out with like what will become your best friends. And you don't know it at the time, but like you're basically being paid by the government to hang out with your friends. That's the military right there. It's so, it's so awesome, especially when you're in a combat job because like when you're not training or deployed,

you know, you know, don't be seen and don't be heard. Just go away. Like, like they always, I always say no one can hide like an infantry unit in the garrison. Like doors are shut, blinds are shut. Like don't look, don't ask the questions. We tell you no lies. And, you know, all this is happening. And, you know, it just feels good and like all this stuff. So we're coming up on this whole workup.

And so by the time, you know, we're getting closer to. So were you supposed to deploy on a ship to the med? We were supposed to deploy on a ship. And I was even on a ship for 30 days. And it was the worst 30 days of, I did two amphibious ready group deployments when I was a young seal. And both of them, obviously, with the Marine Corps. But I did two, that meant I did two workups with the Marine Corps. Yeah.

With, so we did like freaking beach landings and everything that you could do. The elbows. And then we lived with them. I mean, we lived with the Marines. And you did? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, on the ship, of course.

Yeah. Two deployments like that. And that's why, you know, that's one of the reasons why I was very, very lucky because if you didn't have that experience in the SEAL teams, you wouldn't understand how conventional units. its work. You wouldn't even know what a company was, what a battalion, you just wouldn't know it, because you're not in it. You're not doing it. You're in some random, like my first deployment was what we used to call spec ops deployment where you went to, we went to, uh, Guam and then we did

exercise from there, but you're just with a bunch of seals. Yeah. And so you're just doing seal stuff and you're not interacting with anybody else. So being forced to interact with the Marine Corps and I was a radio man. So like, I had to figure out all the comms and it just taught me so much. and I was so lucky and I got to understand the quality of the Marine Corps and how they functioned. And, you know, some of the things that we needed to adapt to and be like, oh, yeah, the Marine Corps is not going to be doing that. Like, that's not the way they're going to work. So I was very lucky that I got to be able to do that. No, I mean, like the one month we were on a ship, I realized one, if you don't have a job on a ship, everyone hates you.

They all have real jobs. And I was a boot, so I was in the bottom of the coffin rack. And so for perspective, I had a book that I was reading. I can't remember what it was. I want to say it was like, you know, gates of fire or something. Some required reading I was told to do. But I remember I had to lean the book flat to turn the page to pull it back up just to read. And I was like, all right.

This is it. You know, ran out of water. All these things happening. Plumbing backs up. And I was just like, okay. And everyone's like, gangway or sick bait. Gangway or sickbay. And we're just, you know, we're just dumb dumps there eating chow.

And we're like, this is pretty great. You know, we're being grunts. But I did that for three. 30 days. We literally left and invaded Onslow Beach. That's what we did. We got off and, you know, buddy mine got washed away, almost lost his A barrel on his saw. Yeah, it was pretty rough. But yeah, the whole time, they're like, you're going to the Mediterranean. We had to do like these emergency drills where we had to do like a, you know, a stand to or like be ready to respond to whatever. And it all seemed great until they were like, actually, you're not going to

the Mediterranean. When did you find that out? February of 2008. And when was deployment? February of 2000 late February 2008 so you found out actually yeah late February yeah basically like the time when it was time to start getting ready to leave that's when you found out yes and that was around the day at the due date of my first child and my daughter so we were on we were on post a pre-deployment leave and so we were in Nashville my wife so now you know that you're going to Afghanistan they had told us like two weeks prior to that and then you go on leave Go and leave.

When did your wife do? Like in a couple weeks? It was very close. It was very close. And so we'd gone to the doctor and he's like, well, you know, it could be any day now. And I was like, we don't have any day. And so, you know, by God's grace, miracle stress or whatever, we went home and, you know, she was taking a bath. And then she's like, there's something happening.

There's something happening. And we all got in the car, drove down to the hospital. and not long after that I'd become a father. And I was supposed to be back. I was supposed to be back home. And I had to call my platoon sergeant. And I was like, hey, you know, I can't come home. I'm not coming home.

And I was just like, they're going to like throw me in the brig. Home being. I can't come back to base. I can't go back to base. I can't, I can't come back. You know, I'm staying here for this, whatever. You want to put me, you want to bury me under the brig. I don't care.

Like, I was there. And, you know, as you know, as you know, when you become a father, like women, become father, I mean, women become mothers over nine months. I say fathers, men become fathers in nine seconds. Like right after the baby's born, you're like, I need insurance, I need like savings, I need a good car. We need these, like, as soon as I held her, like, all my life made sense to me. And I was like, I need to do whatever I can to be with her as much as I can. and my platoon sergeant at the time was he was known for his enthusiasm he had a real hands-on approach to leadership if you can believe that a little too hands-on when he was on the drill

field but he was very like that's okay it's fine and he's like you'll leave with Charlie Company and I was like oh well that's that's cool and so I was there with my daughter for two days and then went back and I left a different company and went straight to Afghanistan. That was my first kid too. My first kid was born and I left the next day for a six-month deployment. It was, it was brutal. It was, I mean, like, it was the first moment where I was like, this life is hard. I'm not, I'm not sure about this.

You know, because I held her, you know, and, you know, she's getting ready to start driving on her own now and like I think about her and, you know, how much I love for. her and her mother and everything. It was just like, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. It was the first time I felt fallible, if that makes sense. So, but until then I was full of like, you know, I came in at like less than 120 pounds. I'm, you know, I'm big and I'm bad. I'm a boot. I'm doing all these things. But then that happens. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm, I'm, I'm a human. And so, yeah, it's, it was, it was tough time. And, you know, went straight, went to Charlie Company, flew with them.

It was kind of weird because, like, no one knew what to do with me. There had been some guys who had got in trouble pre-deployment, a bunch of them, like 30 of them across the battalion. They had... Were they piss hot or something? Yes. I was going to allude to it, but, yeah, that's exactly what had happened. 30 dudes? Yeah.

Do you think some of that was inspired by not wanting to go on this deployment? I don't know exactly. I don't want to say that, maybe. but because that's a lot of guys I also don't think you should drug test pre-deployment personally like we weren't in a situation

that's one way of looking at it I mean like it's a very practical way of looking at it it's a very practical way of looking at it here's a thing you were in charge and the leader and the T&O was was tight to begin with we weren't we didn't have a bench

you know we didn't have a backup roster so like in the grand scheme of things if guys are going to do something and I'm not advocating anything I just I don't know it just that is an interesting move to piss test everyone right before going on the point we didn't have full platoons yeah like if you lost 30 guys yes damn yes I mean your retinians about 550 people or something like that let's let's say 32 a platoon four platoons to a company you know Alfred Bravo Charlie you know H&S so like you know it's not

that many people to begin with I mean this is like 7% of personnel or something like that It was stabbing the dark, but it's, it's a significant portion of people. I'd never heard of a unit doing it before, to be honest. What did they piss hot for? Like pot? No. No. The other substances.

Like Coke? Yeah, a lot of them. A lot of them. Like, it was snowing. Damn. In Camp was unit at that time. Damn. It was, yeah.

It was, it was rough? Was there some kind of a crackdown going on? I, so. Because occasionally, like, in the SEAL teams, some, like, there'd be some drug bust and they would test everybody. So yeah, I think there was enough incidents to where they, I think everyone was doing at that time, but like in general, I had never, I'll put this way. They didn't do it the next appointment. I'd never heard of them doing that before deployment either. And again, I'm not advocating anything whatsoever. It's just an unusual move. I mean, these guys are

getting ready to go to war. Like, like, I don't, I don't know. But it was a big deal and I was treated like one of them and I had to tell people. I was like, I had a kid. I didn't do drugs. I had a kid. because everyone was like they were like come here you fucking they were like there was a bunch of them and I was with them because they ended up becoming the remain behind element right um and so I was I was like no I'm I'm bell I just had a child like I just kept oh you're fine come here and like they would literally put them on working parties some of them they processed out others and this is an important thing that I want people to know what had happened was they they had they knew some people had failed the drug test and a bunch of these names there were a few of them they came to them

And they go, Chaco, we know you did this, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just tell us the truth. Just tell us the truth. And we'll make this as minimal as possible. The, like, three guys who told the truth, deployed. Hmm. They, I don't know. That's not where I thought that story was going.

They actually were not admonished. They were seen as making mistakes, all these things had happened. And they were actually, you know, they finished out their time in the Marine Corps. Good for them. And, you know, it's always taught me to tell the truth no matter what. It was the ones who lied, once they tried to cover up, the ones who do those other things, they were done, ad se, done later. I'm sure they tell different stories now, but that's not what happened.

Yeah, that's the zero tolerance that the military has for drugs. Yes, for sure. And I, again, like, it was just, it was just this weird. There were so many, like, weird moments in my career, but, like, that manifested into where, like, I was, we got to Afghanistan, so we're in Kandahar Airfield. we're like doing drills we got like a few weeks to acclimatize and they look at me and my friend and they go you two in third platoon you go to second platoon that's how that's how many people we lost right and so i was in this platoon where i was known for an enthusiastic platoon sergeant and then i went to

this other platoon and my squad leader his name's ryan madden he comes out to me and he goes what's your name and i was like sergeant my name's lance corbell he goes that's dumb my name's ryan don't call me that during working hours. Sergeant Madden were working. Good to go? I was like, yes, Sergeant. He goes, what did I just tell you? And I was like, okay.

And I went from being someone who was told to do things to someone that was taught to do things. Nice. And my career literally changed overnight. And it was such a, it was such a jump and like a change. I can imagine it's, I don't know what it can equate to. But like, when I was moving my cot out of the third platoon, like 10 area to second platoon, everyone was like

fucking bell dude you're going to second like it was that big of a deal I can't believe I didn't say a word and say a word because like it was like I was getting

I was like getting paroled or something like it was like you made it out like you made it out and everything changed after that everything changed yeah that when you people ask me at all the time you know how do you get someone

to step up and lead it's like treat them as a leader yeah give them the opportunity let them step up and then the whole idea of building relationships trustless and respect influence care you put some trust in somebody like hey you you get it like even that little that little

moment where this guy's like hey if we're not at work Ryan's cool yeah that is actually putting trust in you as a Lance corporal like hey you understand that if we're at work you're gonna we're gonna be professional yes if we're not at work we can be cool it's a it's the first little step of hey man I trust you to be smart enough to you know not abuse the situation if we're out of work I'm not wearing my uniform? Cool, I'm Ryan. If we're at work, especially the boss's round. You know the gig.

Yep, got it. We got it. We good. Yep. It's just giving you a little bit of trust. And then you trust him even more. Right there out of the gate. He's giving you respect.

You're respecting him even more. That's just how this stuff is supposed to work. It is. And it was jarring. I mean, it was unlike him. Him and my team leader, Mike Cantor, like, you know, Ryan had come from 2-5. He was a West Coast guy, had done all the initial Iraq stuff.

And he was like, He always said he was like real California. He's like from the northwest and he's like, what's up, dude? And like, yeah. But like it was one of the first time some, a sergeant of all people had treated me like a normal person. Because sergeant in the infantry is a big, fine deal. It's hard to get there and like he's a squad leader, you know, and like he's,

he's investing in me. He's teaching me stuff. I'm doing stuff and like I'm being treated like a person and it was awesome. Yeah. Good lessons learned there for people. So then what's your, what's your job now? What's your mission, I should say? So the mission of the unit was to insert into a town called Garmsar, Afghanistan.

No one had been there since like 2003, I believe it was, or Afghanistan at that time. And Kandahar Airfield with like the big boardwalk and all that stuff was, you know, scaling up. And all these things were happening. And they had that really nice part of the base. And the Marines were over in what became the septic tank area, like literally. And we were just there for three weeks, about three weeks, running drills, getting used to the. elevation and stuff and just preparing to go out there and assault the town it was in the clear hold build era of the war on terror like we'd insert into a place hold it and then build it up and just

run operations there yeah how did you guys insert helo how many did you did you did was this a company was this a battalion size operation battalion size element oh damn yeah the largest not that one they would that was not what they said that was in marcia but like they were like yeah no one had done it no one had been there and so like it was literally like landing on tattoe is how I remember it. Like, because there was nothing. Echo can relate. So appreciate your reference.

Yeah, yeah. The force is strong with this one. I get it. Yeah. For sure. Over here, this guy. Yeah. Combat experience, not so much.

Star Wars? In the game. No. No, I was just rewatching episode one the other day. It's an underrated movie. Agree. Yeah. I love it.

Agreed. That's, yeah. Underrated. So episode one is not the first one that came out in 1975, right? It's like he came out later. Okay. Yeah. Do people watch them in order now like the proper order that they're supposed to be in?

I mean, I do. But like that also like came out around like, you know, the time when I was in middle school like those. But like, you know, it's the story of Anakin Skywalker and the path that he walks and how it changes everything. The thing that he loves the most is the thing that hurts him. There's a lot of all illusions to it. It's all like Joseph Campbell's stuff too. That's where All Star Wars comes from. Yeah.

Yeah. The hero's journey. Yeah. There we go. Yeah, the hero's journey. The wizard is over one canobo. Like it's all there, dude. It's all there.

But no, it was literally like tattooing. So that's what you're going into. Yeah, it was, it was crazy. It was, it was unlike anything I'd ever experienced because like in Kandahar Airfield, there's a Tim Hortons and a Burger King. And that's some people's deployment. Toby Keith even came to see us, you know. He did. And there was a, there was an air raid attack that came in while he was singing the Taliban song.

And so his like, attache like ran out underneath him was like, no, no. put him under cover and we all started booing because we're animals like bring him back bring him back and he came back out on stage and finished the Taliban song while the Taliban were attacking the base yeah it was awesome man so like that was there jump cut I'm in the middle of nowhere right and how clue you're going in who's briefing you did you have a battalion size brief yeah yeah we did you know we had the stuff's pushed down like I remember we had a terrain model it was my job as a boot to guard it certain hours of the day. I had to like.

Was it the full battalion terrain model for everyone? Yeah. Yeah. It was huge. It was a big sandbox in the middle of a tent. You know, and like I would look at it and be like, I have no idea. Like it just, you know, unless you're there, like a map is just a map. You know what I'm saying?

And, you know, but again, my squal leader at the time, he would start asking me questions about the stuff I was looking at. Not just like, what's that? He's like, tell me what that means? What does that do? What would you do to move through this type of? of battle space what you know what type of blah blah like literally everything that like was shaping me as a person as a leader as an infantryman he was putting into me it was a real like uh wax on wax off

method so you go to the big battalion brief like the whole battalion's there are all the guys that are all the all the that was like company level companies okay yeah like the squad leaders the platoon commanders they went to those things but then it like we got company yeah i mean because just too many people and not have spaces and you remember so the company side of the company brief, that's when you're getting kind of the word. Yeah, they're passing word down. Here's what we're going to do. Here are how things are going to happen. I mean, you know, it doesn't really, I don't want to say it doesn't matter. It's just, you don't really understand what you're listening to in the moment. And like, my whole job is just to hold security. My whole job is to, like, that's what I'm doing.

That's what you're focused on. Well, yeah, because at the, you know, when orders are given in the military, it's very, very simple. I always bring it down to like, there's a desired in-state, the commander's intent, and then the method to which you choose to execute that, right? That's basically it. The desired intent was to win the war. The commander's intent was how they told us to do it. And then what we did was how we got there, right? And so that was basically my job was to hold security

and make sure my team was taken care of. You know, I was an A-gunner. I wasn't a point man. It was just my job to, like, be with the first team, make sure everything was good. How built up was this area? Like, what was it? Was it mud huts?

Mud huts mainly. And no one had been this. there for since the Russians, which was weird. Like we would hit open areas and there was like a battalion of tanks that had been left in place. Because when they left, they literally like left. Gee, that sounds familiar. Yes, it does. That's why, you know, it's a place, what is it? The graveyard of empires. The graveyard empires. Which is weird because like you would see it and like some of the, you would see that, but like they don't have like plasma torches out there. But every now and then you'd see like a door with like a weird like sickle and hammer over it or like a piece of metal

on a house like oh they just like cut that out with a torch or something and uh yeah so like we landed and then we just started conducting operations like immediately and we were so far out there that there was no logistical support so like we would just take over a compound you know knock holes in the wall you know set up post and then just start running and gunning so would you were you in a company location and an FOB uh so not yet, but we initially in the clear phase, we were just like platoon-sized elements, which is perfect. It is absolutely perfect. And did you methodically move from like one side to the other of the terrain?

So we initially landed like the center of the town and just pushed out to like the outskirts into like basically where there was nothing like literally to there was like roaming herds of camels and stuff like that. And like it was just flat. And I remember being like, whoa, there's nothing here. And then we would, that was when we got like the order where they reconstructed, um, the area of operations and moved each unit to where they were going to be the company, you know, alpha company here, Bravo, Charlie and so forth and so on. How was the clearance? Um, what were you running into? It was okay.

It wasn't really that bad, to be honest. Um, it was dynamic, but we're attached to a muse, so we have direct support from air artillery and everything. So like, immediately, immediately immediately. Like I, what's all little bird just, just like do a gun. just to come down to a gun run on like two or three guys. It was not overkill. It was just direct immediate asset support. You know, and it took some time,

and we were, like, running underneath artillery rounds. They would, like, call in, you know, danger close, which I found out what that was, and then we would go through and clear after, you know? Like, so this was freaking kinetic, then. It was very kinetic. It was very kinetic. But, like, the difference in my first point in second deployment

is, like, in Garmsor, we had, superiority in the battle space the entire time the entire time like we were always we were always pushing the enemy as opposed to them pushing against us and no one had been there in so long they were looking back on they're probably just waiting to see what we would do because we were developing you know SOPs on on the fly as it was happening you know going through and you know we come across like different little you know cachets of like you know ID materials or weapons and different things like that and so we would just set up these um platoon size elements and we would use those platoon patrol bases until we eventually consolidated into two company bases.

One was called Apache North and one was called Apache South. And so two platoons there, like three actually. How bad were the IEDs? There's just not that many there. There's just not that many there. Because the transition really hadn't taken place yet. I mean, it was coming. Yeah.

But they learned a lot. The Afghan Taliban learned a lot from what happened in Iraq. And the Iraqis learned from freaking Hamas and the Iranians. how to how to do that yeah and how what an effective weapon an iED was whether it was a roadside bomb whether it was anti-personnel but this was during the escalation phase where yeah like for you guys to how was the casualties um we took some we we lost some guys one of the uh the sniper teams one of the guys who was attached to us for a long time we lost him um you know there was the main threat was the enemy just ambushing you or setting up

some type of positions for you. There's a very famous photo that was taken of a Marine. The Marines getting shot and he's ducking down. You're probably seeing it. The rounds coming over. He just has a skivy shirt on his rifle. He was Bill B is his name. And that was actually the place where that happened.

So the enemy was shooting at us from this field for a long time. And, you know, myself and my squad leader were actually behind a wall when the RPG hit it and it blew us back and messed me up pretty bad in him too. But we didn't know at the time how indestructible the walls were. And, you know, thankfully it was, but, you know, he didn't know that at the time. He actually shielded me with his body and something I've never forgotten. But this area had been given us trouble for a while. And we knew they were trying to bait us to cross this open space, right?

And we ended up crossing it, and there was just these machine gun positions set up that you couldn't see until you were on top of them. they had set them up just for that. And that was the type of stuff that would happen. And, you know, we lost a Marine that way. Yeah. Others through like IEDs and stuff. But like there's not a lot of roads.

We were doing air supply, you know, air drop resupply. Like there's one road and like we just, we weren't near it. I can't stress how far and away we were from everything. It was, it was weird. How long did it take you to get the initial clearance done? Maybe a month is what it felt like a month or so. I mean, you know, from the time. that I left home, I didn't call home for like 90 days.

And that was on a sat phone, you know. And, you know, we weren't Navy SEALs, so we all didn't have one. So it was, I'm sorry. It was one for per platoon and not one for the company, actually. And that was when we had established our patrol bases by that point, just a platoon size ones. And, but that was like halfway through the deployment, basically. So halfway through you had established your,

platoon-sized patrol bases. Yeah, and then they consolidated the battle space into a company-sized patrol base, well, two-company patrol bases, because the A.O. shifted again. So what was happening was that 1-6 was transitioning the battle space over to a British unit that was going to backfill us, but they were half the size we were. They were like out of New Delhi, I believe it was. So you guys needed to be a little bit more aggressive. And, you know, when I read about the history of this, they talked about,

There was a lot of activity down south. Yes. In the south area. So you needed to kind of push down south. Yes. That's where we were. We were Apache South. Yeah.

It was dynamic. It was dynamic. I don't know what else to say. Like it was, but it didn't feel as dangerous as it as maybe I should have thought it was. But like again, we had like something happened, you know, air, artillery, you know, instantly. Close air support. And how was the civilian populace we were interacting with?

There was, they were pretty cool for the most part. I mean, they just don't care. I mean, I can't stress how little they're unfazed by war. When we pushed out one time, we went out, like, we do, like, once a month or so, we do like a long range, like sweeping patrol to really just kind of break up the A.O. And to stir up whatever was moving. And we saw this guy, he couldn't have had more than four fingers on both of his hands. And he looked at us and he goes, I'm not scared of you, white boy.

I was killing Russians before you were born. And I was like, good to go, sir. Good to go. Yeah. you win and he was like get out of here like he was like get out of here he said white boy that's what he said that's what it translated to yeah yeah yeah and i mean he'd been making bombs you know since you know jesus left jerusalem he wasn't scared to anybody so um and he came out to meet us like he was like he was like bowed up at us and just literally both of his hands missing fingers a little too

much you know ammonia and nitrate here and there i guess so but like the rest of them were pretty cool the jingle trucks were fine as long as we didn't slow them down. I mean, I just, I always think about like how weird it was to see us. Like, that was something I think about. Like, you're just like living your life normally and then you see like a bunch of dudes patrolling. Like, that's weird. See them? They took over Tom's house. They just like kicked him out and paid him a ton of money. And now they live there. Yeah. But, you know, we did that, you know, and I mean, I went to a wedding. I've never told this story publicly. Yeah. So. Like an Afghan wedding? Yes, sir.

Okay. It was a night patrol. So it was a night patrol and we had begun rotating out different stuff. And again, thanks to Ryan and Mike, I was moved in different positions. And Ryan actually started training us like we were team leaders and squad leaders. He would on the job training start being like, like this is what you need to do. What do we do, Zach? And like to a point to where like at one point he's like, I'm not going to make the decision.

You have to make it. And again, I owe so much to him. And I'll never be able to repay that. And what was his position in your platoon? He was my squad later. So he was in charge of three fire teams. And he reported up to the platoon commander. And he let you kind of role play.

Yeah. I mean, he wasn't, it was like literally, I won't say he was holding my hand, but he's like, Zach, what are we doing? What checkpoint? He wouldn't let you make a freaking catastrophic call or anything. For sure. But he's let you make decisions.

Every decision. Like it was scary. It was scary. I'm not going to lie. It was absolutely scary. But after you do it a few times, are like, okay, you know, I can do this, but one of the, it was my turn to be a point man, is what it came down to.

And we had gotten chattered that they were moving materials to this village. Let's go out and see what's happening. Go through the village, looking around, you know, NVGs, we had 14s. They're weird too. You can't really tell what's happening. You either choose near or far distance. And I remember I could see like some flames and I could see a lot of bodies. And he's like, I'm like, we're holding.

up and everyone can see it too you're just like you can hear little whispers and stuff excuse me and uh he's like what's going on and i was like i don't know and i was like what i'm going to do and he's like we're going to find out and then he grabs my shoulder right because we'd always i don't like people do the tap or stuff like we always grab grab grab go right release and we stack on the door and then we can hear him we're getting closer we get up on the door stack on it grab grab grab go boom kick open the door I roll left, he rolls right. And then we look around and right as I do, I just see like 14 people sitting down at a rug

and I see steam from food and rice and all this stuff. And I go, oh my God. And then he goes to the right and we're all in there looking around very quickly. We establish security, make sure everything's good and safe and we look around. And, you know, there's some loose translation. We find out that they're having a wedding.

Did you have a turp with you? Yes. Did you have Afghan forces with you, police or anything like that? This is prior to that. Prior to that. Prior to that. And they're like, it's a wedding, it's a wedding. And so, like, we're sitting around, and they're like, hey, and the father starts laying out

a mat for us, and it puts a big old pile of meat, and then puts a big old pile of rice. And it had been a while since I'd eaten something that wasn't government made. And so we're all sitting there, and I look at him, and they show us how to eat it. He goes, he looks at him, and he goes, you grab the meat, and you grab the rice, and boom, that's how you do it. like you make a hand spoon is basically what it was and uh i like look around and ryan goes you only live once and he grabs the meat and he grabs the rice and we all do it right and it was delicious i don't know what meat it was i know the rice was rice i don't know what meat what the protein was and um you know we just crashed a wedding we left thank you so much good well jump cut

we have to go straight from post uh straight from patrol to post and Ryan's walking around checking on us, as you're supposed to do as a squad later, and he's like, hey, how are you doing? I'm like, how's your gut? How's your stomach feeling? And I go, not good. And then see, you know,

the SOG, SIG is supposed to want, like all of us got sick. We all vomited, we all had to get a shot. And we all went down for 24 hours after that. Like the squad was unmovable. But yeah. I never ate anything, bro. I never ate anything.

You wouldn't have eaten if you gone to a wedding? No, 100% zero, zero chance. I mean, you only live one once I know I'm telling you like zero chance I'm eating any of that yeah food zero percent I barely will go to a like a restaurant and I don't know I only go to three restaurants what are they mean well here in San Diego it's like there's a place called raglan okay which I go to a lot there was a place called Fiddler's Green which shut down so that one's kind of off the books now island prime you know where Enrique works yes

sir he works there jihitsu guy fiddlers green was the name of a patrol base yeah to an Afghanistan. Well, there's a whole story behind Fiddler's Green. Yeah, yeah. And then there's probably one other restaurant that I go to. Well, all malt shop across the street. Yeah. So there you go, classic malt shop.

But me walking into a random Afghan wedding and thinking I'm going to eat their food and ain't happening. Well, you know, I was there for hearts and minds. Yeah. So we were trying to win the population over it. Yep. I would purposely, you know, I would have got my assistant platoon commander to be like, hey, get up there on this rice and meat, whatever it is, getting there to make friends.

friends bro. That's on you. That's the perks of leadership right there. But no, we, I mean, like after that, the kind of the deployment kind of came to like, you know, a rap. There wasn't really much left to it. I mean, we were just handed over the battle space to the Brits. Yeah. And even as they report that, like, you know, you guys, you guys actually transitioned with the Brits to like civil operations and now you're doing civil affairs. Yeah. You're helping them rebuild. We did that the whole time. The whole time we were doing battle damage assessment, repaying them. And boy, they were they were throwing out numbers. You'd show up and be like, what about this wall?

And you'd like, what wall? And they would like knock a hole in it. And they're like, that one. You're like, you're just counting them off. Sure, whatever. You know, we're already here, you know. Giving him some of that monopoly money. Yes, they loved it.

And they were like, yeah, dude, you killed like 12 goats. And you're like, but I thought you were a cow farmer. I was until you killed all my goats. You know? So, like, it's just stuff like that. But, you know, saw the Brits. I was fascinated by them endlessly. they would they would like roll out in shorts and stuff and like barely any gear and be like oh come

oh my you know queen of country and I was like all right and you know I even you know we went to that the base where Prince Harry was they said he was there it looked like him I don't I don't know we watched Iron Man together is what I think happened because the whole base came together to watch a bootleg Iron Man in Afghanistan which is which is funny because it's about Afghanistan and it hasn't seen it you haven't seen Iron Man no Sorry, I didn't mean to give it away. It's about a guy who... Spoiler alert.

Spoiler alert. I got a spoiler alert. I'm not going to see Iron Man. How do you like them apples? Yeah, the Brits, you know, my experience, working with the Brits, which has happened quite a few times earlier.

They're just freaking professionals. They're just so professional with everything. So outstanding. And then, so how much time did you... You were in, like, Kandahar for the first three weeks? Yeah. Boom, in the field. Yep.

The whole time. The whole time. Yeah. Come back to... How long are you in Kandahar for like a week? And then you go home. A week and you go home, yeah. You go through a curry stand. That's where we would transition to. It was an Air Force base. And how is your transition to you coming home?

Ooh, it was a lot. It's, that's right. You got a six month, seven month old baby. Yeah, seven-month-old child. Oh, yeah. That was, it was awesome. That was, that was like the coolest feeling in the world. Honestly, just being there and being to see her and my wife. And like, I'll never forget that. The only thing I don't understand is we, like, arrived in the dead of night, like the Taliban were going to find us, which is weird because we didn't like, meet up in a parking lot we met at the base so like I was always like we could have showed up in like a decent time what do you mean like the when you flew home when we flew home and there's like an arrival like celebration where you come out and you go turning your weapons to the armory and it's like 10 o'clock a night or something no it's like two o'clock in the morning but that's just the way the flight scheduled I blame it on marine corps scheduling because like I mean we're we're booking it

it's not like you know united had other Marine Corps flights that day but like it always felt like we had to sneak in to get to get under the radar. I just didn't understand it. But, you know, I come back and, you know, after that, I'm officially not a boot. And on top of that, I'm a husband and a father. And now it's time to do the next workup, like very, very quickly. At that time, during the Marine Corps, almost immediately, they take the short timers and they're like, go away. They get removed from any leadership role in a responsibility. They put them in like a platoon usually, or they just, they all go to one squad and then, you know, now it's my turn. And Ryan came to me and he goes, I want you to be my first team leader.

And I was like, okay, I can do it. And he's going to stay as squad leader? Yeah, he had come over from, he had been on the drill field. He was a PMI, which is like a range coach. And he had left there and this is where he was, he had actually reenlisted in Afghanistan. Hell yeah. With an opt-for contract, which is funny. What's an opt-for contract?

So the contract was basically he had to stay into a victor unit, a deployable unit, and there was a bonus incentive based off of that. Yeah. Love. Yeah. It was those George Bush years. That bonus was hefty. Hefty.

Yeah. Well, it's also in the middle of a war. I don't know what the bonuses are creeping back up again right now because they can't get anyone to join or they're having a hard time. Yeah. I imagine so. But this was, this was an annual salary they had. And I was just like, whoa. And yeah.

It was cool. So how were you when the next round. the boots showed up and now you're an old guy with a combat action ribbon. That was very kind. That was very caring. No, I mean, I tried to always do the things like, you know, because it was such a shift. I went from a platoon with like a drill instructor mentality to working with Ryan and them in second platoon. I just tried to, you know, I try to say funny things.

It's kind of what I do now still, I guess, and there's a look on it. Like I'd be like, hey, if you still remember the Warriors breakfast from boot camp, get over here. You know, please call this. I was never like degrading. That was never my thing. I don't find that to be useful. I mean, because ultimately you're going to rely on each other in combat. There's no point to that.

I would just try to teach them and invest in them in the way people would have done with me. But I was just glad to not have to do, you know. Dumb shit. Dumb shit. Yeah. Like the first time you clean out a laundry room in a barracks and you're like, I don't live here. Like you're like, what are these animals doing? Like there would be times where Marines would be doing their laundry drunk and just vomit in the washer.

Like that was a very common thing. Yeah. That's just awesome. Yeah. It's just out. That's just a bunch of dudes, man. I mean, like, it's just a bunch of dudes being bros. That's what it's like in an infantry barracks.

Yeah. Like, all right, I'm going to tell the story. Like, one guy, one guy, I was working duty, right? I imagine everyone knows what duty is, but in case they don't, in a barracks, there is an NCO, a non-commission officer, and an A-duty NCO. They're assigned to just watch the barracks. Their job to basically be like a hall monitor. What is it called in college?

an RA, a resident, assistant, like, where they live there, and they're like, here are the rules. There you go, Echo. Confirmed. Confirmed. Solid copy. No. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. Crazy. Okay. Yeah. But one of these guys, he's a machine gunner. His name was Chad. Chad. Chad, machine gunners are wild. They're wild dudes in general, right? Chad would, he would love to have a good time, and every now and then Chad would become Super Chad. And he would drunkenly draw an S on his chest backwards because he would do it wrong in the mirror. And then he would tie his poncho liner to himself. And the worst thing you would want to see is one of your very best friends become their alter ego as you're like, Chad, please. And he's like,

Super Chad. And he's running around the barracks and silkies just out of his mind. And you're just like, come on, dude, just get to the thing. Please, I don't want to, I'm already going to be up for a day, please. And it's like that every single day. And we were tame. We were tame. My wife, picked me up once, weapons company. So it's just a whole company of weapons dudes. She picked me up and a guy jumped off the third deck balcony onto some mattresses he had set up and combat rolled out of it. She goes, what's happening?

I go, we're leaving. We're leaving. I don't go. Come on, babe. We got to go. She goes, he okay? And I was like, who knows? Did you try and keep a minimum safe distance for your wife?

Yeah. She would roll in. When you like, hey, meet me on this intersection over here. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They're a bunch of, yeah. I mean, like, you know, it's just, they were fine and everyone was respectful and stuff. but like it's just a bunch of dudes

and if somebody says something like it's on dude like hey watch yourself and you know but like it's crazy it's not people say it's like a frat house I think frat houses are tame compared to like super chat and things like that but I mean these are also your very best friends

so it's just I don't know it's fun there's always this tinge too that don't do that in the teams you'll have super teams or whatever oh dude we got all kinds of freaking knuckleheads you're looking at one of them by the way you know so um there's always that tinge of like well you know we could die yeah you know what I mean like yes we could die so we're going to live and we're going to live a lot especially

Friday night Saturday night we're going to live we're going to make sure we're going to be ready but we're going to we're going to live real good oh yeah we would leave we would you know um at that time somebody texts super chad yeah we have a scenario no yeah I mean he's going to love that I said this here too um because I have a photo of him and I just took a photo of him and we're like trying to calm him down and no one's home and he has a backward ass on his chest but um like the barracks would either be hot too hot or too cold and like all my friends would be like let's go to bell's house and so we would like have these crazy one year we had a luow so like all my friends from the company it's legendary would come over and we had like a

themed party at my house and it was just like I came to work the next day and the company first sergeant was like hey dog on bell I heard you had a dog on luw out at the house and I was just like As I did first sergeant, everyone's fine. He goes, next time let a first sergeant know. And I was like, oh, okay, we're like that. I didn't know. Hey. But like we would live because especially after coming back from war, you understand so much more about life.

So much more about the precious reality of time. And like you're stuck with, they're here. They're right here forever. You know? And all of them. And like my wife always says they're like her. her little brothers, you know, and they're the uncles to my children.

That's what they call uncles, you know, Uncle Ace, you know, Uncle whoever. Like, that's who they refer to, Uncle Luke, all of them. And it's just such a special bond, but it's crazy looking back on it. Like I would, if I could, you know, go back, I'd be like, yeah, one barracks night, it would be so much fun.

Yeah, oh, 100%. So now you can do another workup. Yeah. And now you're a little bit more seasoned. Yes, sir. How's that going? All good? It's going really good.

great actually um yeah uh they told us we're going to iraq for 30 days at that point excuse me and um like hey you're going to iraq 30 days and i was like 30 days wait in 30 days or you're going to go there for like 30 days was it like to shut down or something like shut down bases they were like you're shutting down bases and i was like 30 i'll do a rack i'll get fat in a rack i don't care give me a gym give me a chow hall give me Wi-Fi let's go dude let's go and they're like as we get close to it they're like hey it might be 60 days i don't care i don't care i I don't care, I don't care. You know?

Because now Iraq, this is 2000. Are we in 2010? 2009. 2009. 2008. Iraq has really settled down by 2009. Oh yeah. There's nothing.

There's lights, you know, it's just like people were like, it's magical. I remember I would see photos of people in Iraq and they had like clean camis and I was like, but they're fine. They're fine. Leif deployed with Steel Team One and they had one casualty there and it was a vehicle flip over. That type of stuff was happening. There was a guy who died from like a four.

Forklift accident. Like it was non-combat stuff and it's horrible anytime life is lost. But like you're looking at from my perspective, am I going to conduct combat operations? No. That was one of done. And so we had wanted to have another child and, you know, we found out my wife was pregnant again and it was awesome. I was like, yeah, cool.

This is great. I'm going to be a dad again. And everything was going great until, you know, President Obama at the time went to West Point in November of 2009. And that day they go, hey, the president's going to announce a troop search in Afghanistan. You're going to a town called Marja. You have two weeks. And like, I remember when they told me.

Was this, how long had you been home for? The whole year. I've been home since October of 08. So you had completed your whole workup? You guys weren't deployable. Because occasionally, like, people get deployed out of sync and they just have to leave early or whatever. Yeah. At that time, that stuff had kind of gone by the wayside and it's not really existing anymore.

It was like senior guys had done that. Iraq but this this wasn't that so you had a full workup you're ready to go to Iraq shut things down be a logistics crew yeah and hold security on some stuff exactly what it was holding security yeah all good and now you find out your how how long till you go on deployment we had three weeks from the time they told us I know that because of how much I got gouged on every you know storage unit and everything under the sun because all of one six had was just being told to do that and there were other units too but it was it was one six that was being told. So it was my heart broke. How good was your intel on Marja at the time?

No one really knew about it. No one really talked about it. The only thing we knew at that time, and we would find out later, it was perceived as the last Taliban stronghold in Helmand province. Did you find that out? Like, did you Google it? I started, so when I started transitioning to like a leadership role and stuff, like I started to make the military my job. And that was because of Ryan. He once told me he's like, not everyone gets to reenlist when it comes to time you need to be in the driver's seat. People submit packages and people get asked to submit packages, but not everyone, even when they submit a package, gets asked to do it. Make sure you have the ability and you get asked to do it. Treat this like a job. And so I did. So I was like constantly

studying, looking up stuff, trying to understand things, wherever I could. And at that time, I had even done a workup as a team leader for a few months because he went off to squad leader school. Excuse me, I done a workup as a squad leader because he went off to squad leader school. So I'm from being a team leader. And I was running it. And I was running it. Like, I ran ranges. We did training. All this crazy stuff. So I was like, I'm learning. I'm learning. Because when time comes, I want to have all the power to make that decision. And, yeah. So you go on deployment and you end up, you're rolling into operation, Moshe Terrick. Am I saying that right? I think. I didn't even know that. I didn't even know that

name until we got back. It's Marja. Yeah. So it's Marja. Yeah. And this is, there's a lot of stuff going on. Like you said, it's the surge. So now it's the surge happening. They had done the surge in Iraq. It kind of worked. Yeah. That was the theory that it would work here. Yeah. It worked.

It kind of worked in Iraq. If we wouldn't have totally left, it would have worked really well, but we completely left. But at that time, they were like, oh, yeah, it worked. Yeah. We sent more troops over there. We got into the C's Clearhold build deal going on. Yes. We, you know, did more interaction with the local governmental officials to get them squared away.

So there's a bunch of things that went well. So now they take that, they pick it up, and they bring it over. Now we're going to do this in Afghanistan. I know, like, General McChrystal, one of the things he said was basically we got a government in a box. We like have the Afghans we're going to use. We're going to insert them once we take over. And the rules of engagement, one of the things I heard to describe the rules of engagement was courageous restraint, which is a very positive way of spinning up. the way the rules of engagement are,

meaning it's going to take courage to do what we're asking you to do. Sounds like something a general would say. Yeah, it does sound like something general would say. Things are different out there on the front. I can tell you that right now. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that's what this is all about. Yes, sir. You know, I have a leadership company called Ashlawn Front. Yes, you do. And the reason the company's called Eschalon Front is because it's leadership from the front. Yes. Like, what is happening on the front?

Not leadership from back in the rear, from the rear echelon motherfuckers, but the front. So in the rear, courageous is restraint. Sounds pretty good until you're getting freaking shot at. Yeah. Sounds super cool until that happens. Yeah. So I don't know what he was talking about. Just to we're clear.

I want this on the record. That was not what happened. Yeah. So when you land, what's it do when you land? Do you, how's that briefing happen? How are you hearing about it? How's this operation? kind of take shape and for you, what are you now a Lance Corporal team leader? What's it look like

from your perspective? Um, I mean, for me, there was so much that was happening personally. I mean, my wife was pregnant with our second child and like we had left abruptly and the, you know, all of the stress and strain that the last minute really, really worried me. Um, you know, like we left and how pregnant is she, she'd do while you're on deployment or no? She would go on to have our child about a month later. And like, I, I mean, I'll tell you. Uh, you know, I'll tell you, uh, you Yeah, she was very pregnant. Third trimester, a few weeks out. Oh, okay.

Like, there's a photo of me, like, kissing her pregnant stomach. Yeah, she's holding our daughter. And, like, I was just, I was just, I was there. I was doing my job, but, like, I was just like, I remember giving her, like, kissing my unborn child being like, I don't know if I can do this for 20 years. That was just a real time thought. And, you know, we get there. And from the very beginning, I knew that this was different.

When we left, there was fob Dwyer. When I got there, there was a guy giving us like a red barrel brief and telling me a Wi-Fi password because it was now called Camp Dwyer. And in that year, the military industrial complex had moved right to that part of Afghanistan. And I was like, what is happening? This is like a big place with tents and chow halls and steak and lobster on Sunday and all this stuff. And there was so much more media attention, so much more assets. and intentional coverage of this that it made me uncomfortable from the jump.

Like, they're like, you're working with the Afghans now. We were the first ones to do it. They brought out like the Afghan commander. They brought up like the Afghan dude. Like, we were the first unit to do that that I know of. And like we were just immediately, hey, you're going to town called Marja. Here's the thing. You know, it's a Taliban stronghold.

The reason we'd come to find out why is because how much cultivation of poppy, which is opium and heroin that comes from there. And so that's their money source. That's their fuel for the terrorism that they're going to conduct everywhere. And so we wanted to take that from them. So as you're rolling in, this is a, this is a big operation. Is it, is it? The largest heliborne assault since Vietnam is what they would tell us every day.

Every day. 4,000 Americans are going in. Yeah. So what was the force structure? So you had your battalion? Yeah. Actually, I wouldn't have asked you that question because I looked at the force structure yesterday. I was like reading, reading about this battle and it's just a massive.

It's massive. It's 4,000. It's almost a full brigade. Yeah, 1-6 took Marja. There was a unit, I think it's 2-6, I believe, or 3-6, I can't remember. They were to the north and there was an army, like, strike team somewhere. They were to the south, but 1-6 itself inserted into Marja. Yeah, and plus you had Brits.

Brits were around, yeah. Something like 1,500 Brits, and they had some other Brits for reinforcements and 2,500 Afghans. Yes. that was rolling into this thing. Going back to that question I asked you, so now are you getting, are you still getting like the main source of information for you as company level briefs?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what the Marine Corps does best is like keeping it focused on her lane and like Ryan was like involving me more and like planning and stuff and treating me more like a, I don't want to say, I can't think the right word right now. He was like talking to me more deliberately

about things were happening, like the tone. Everything was, just the way everyone was moving was so different from the very beginning. I was like, this is, this is going to be wild. Yeah, because when you start doing this size of operation, this is, this is going to be some kind of historical operation, most likely. Look, you could have going there and they're just like, everyone folds over and take the town. It wouldn't be that big of a deal.

But if there's going to be any level of fighting, you have that many troops on the ground. This is a historical operation that the Marine Corps is going to learn lessons from. They're going to pass on. Like, this is a big deal. Yes. And you knew that. Yeah, I could tell by the way we were being covered. There was news people everywhere.

There was people talking about it. Do you know this is being like I would call my wife home because we were still on the big basis? She'd be like, they're talking about this every day. They're talking about going into Marja on the news. She knows it. Everyone knew about it. Like there's like a meme. It's like Marja, Marja, Marcia, Marja.

And it's like, I'm a Marja Marine. And it's like, look, no one cares, right? That's like how it felt. Because it was like literally happening. Like there's clips. I've been able to pool and like things together. I mean, the most famous thing that happened is the speech that gunnery sergeant Brian Walgren gave 14 years ago to the day yesterday to alpha company Marines it was just our company alone

he was there he was our company gunnery sergeant you guys should like you you would love each other like he's incredible he had so he came to us in AP Hill and um I was actually to go back I was actually the training squad leader and everyone had failed this squad exercise and I was bottom at the night No one liked my plan. I'm the Lance Corporal Squadator. I shouldn't even be in the spot. Ryan's not there. I came up with a plan.

And I was like, here's what we should do, is how we should maneuver, put. I moved all my, I moved my saw guns to the top of the hill provide fire superiority, suppressing fire while my maneuver element was able to go through and clear an objective. Cover and move.

Cover and move. So I do it. I execute. Use the pop up to signal all of it. I'm doing stuff that everyone's telling me not to do. I do it, and I hear the this roar, this rumble. He goes, Marine, who is your squad leader?

And I go, that's me. And he goes, God damn it, that just made my dick move. And I go, do I have to do it again? He goes, no, you're the only one who doesn't. You're going to brief all the fucking idiots who failed. And I looked around every other squad leader. It was a sergeant, and everyone but me, I had to be like, I put two sawgunners on the hill and they did this.

And he goes, are you a Lance Corby? And I go, yes, gunnery sergeant. And he goes, God damn it, I love the Marine Corps. And then, like, he gave this big speech. So he was, like, known for these, like, real raw, raw moments. But he, so he gives this speech to John Glenn speech, and it's all the Marines of Alpha Company. It's funny, too, like, when he's giving you that speech, he's like, have I given you this speech? If I've given you this guy to John Glenn speech, like, he has these things queued up.

Yeah. He's ready. Well, and he's, he is the most, most Marine ever. Like, he took stuff out of the Connix box that he knew he didn't need and put in stacks of red bulls, just the mini eight ounce ones. He goes, they're easier to drink in a dynamic environment is what he once told me. And then he would smoke small, short cowboy killers. He didn't want to give away his position to the enemy. So he's ripping butt, smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee.

It's all real. It's all real. And he's one of the greatest leaders ever. He would go on to save my life many times. Like, I literally love Brian Walgren. And like, so he gave the speech and like we're there. and that whole day we had been getting speeches from everyone. And I don't know if they did this during your time,

but like a general comes out, like, this might sound disrespectful or rude or whatever, but I don't want to hear a general's opinions. Like I don't want to, like, because we're in formation for like an hour, and he's like, Marines, you're going to go forth and do war like you're trained. And then a colonel comes out. And then a lieutenant colon. Like, so that's what he's talking about in speech.

He's like, I've heard these speeches all day. And then like, even as I watch the video every year as I do, I can feel myself. I can see my dumb self actually as I'm like, this is such a crazy moment in my life that happened and someone caught it and I'm so grateful for it, but I'll honestly never forget it. And little did I know that that moment has now transcended to a point to where it's used in recruiting offices, ROTC, all these different things to this day. Every time I put it up, people tell me all this stuff.

But like. Yeah, it's on YouTube. It's on your Instagram. The at veteran with a sign you can watch it because you just post it because it's, you know, This is like 14 years ago almost the day that we're sitting here today. Yeah. And it's crazy because as soon as he wraps it, an hour later, we're on a bird. Like we, because we had so much gear, they were like trying to get this transport, but we couldn't do it.

So we walked across an unfinished field and got on the birds. And we had so much weight. We actually threw water bottles away on the flight line just so the birds could lift off. And then boom, straight to Marcia. And where were, where was your platoon going? What was your objective? We were in the center pushing out. That was alpha company's objective to like land into the area and push out. I mean as I as I remember it best I can, you know

But we were just supposed to land there and then push that's the same thing we've done before like the battle space will get reorganized According to whatever you know the battalion commander it's all fit at that time company here wherever it were but like Alpha and Bravo Charlie was to the south I remember that but alpha bravo like pushed in and just were supposed to push out through the battle space and Seas and clear and this was like big I mean like you guys had Apaches, you guys had predators. So you're flying in. What do you anticipate as you're flying in as a holiday now? 22.

22 seasoned a little bit more. I've got an M4203. Get some. It's my favorite weapon. How many grenades did you have with you? 13. One of the guns. Six on each side.

So here's what I would do. I would rock six on each side of my belt, dump pouches, one in the gun, and then six mags on me, maybe. But the one thing I know about the 203 is if you put one of the, out in the open, people get their heads down and lie to move out of the danger zone. So contact front, boom, we'll figure it out. It's like literally my method because people, they're so loud. They don't know the cash rate is not that big, but it's so like, they're like, oh no,

and you're like, yeah, that's bad. Let us, let us think for a second. Yeah, that's literally, it's literally just a tactical pause, right? And so, like, you know, they had told us it was going to be bad IDs everywhere. There was going to be a part of a town that a soft unit had supposedly come through, and they had getting contact everywhere as well. Come to find out they just leveled that whole section. Like they literally called in an airstrike there and leveled it. And we were carrying apops, actually.

We had, I don't know what the right word is, but we had tied and duct taped two by fours. So we were carrying them over our shoulders with our combat load of apops just so we could clear more. we thought would be like ID laden areas. And it was a nightmare. Those were not made to be carried. They became smaller them, but they were not made to be carried. So an A-pop is a, you know, it's a minefield clearing device. It's a rocket up front.

It shoots grenades off to the side to clear, you know, a dangerous area. Yeah, and they would normally be brought on a vehicle. Yes. And the vehicle in this case was Marines. So, yeah. So as you get on the ground, how's it go down? What's the resistance when you hit? I mean, they're so smart at this point.

They knew we were coming. We had dropped flyers. We had dropped pamphlets. We had done radio broadcasts. All the stuff that we could do. It would be like, hey, leave. And honestly, the locals were waiting. We saw them, like, as they were leaving, like, okay, whatever.

And then as the birds started lifting off, it starts happening. You know, they're just looking for us, just hitting us with pop shots, waiting until we get to cover and then start attacking that place. And, you know, they knew exactly what we were going to do every step of the way. and the initial clear phase wasn't it was not as dynamic as the rest of the deployment. Yeah, it's, it's almost like what the, I forget which island it was when the Marines landed. I forget which island it was off the top of my head, but the Marines landed at one of the island campaigns and the enemy didn't do anything for, the Japanese didn't do anything. Yeah.

They let them get in there and let them kind of get settled. That's kind of the way it felt. To be honest, I mean, like we would have like elements and stuff and I knew some. some of the guys on like the stay teams and they would like reach out and pop a few guys who were like dropping, you know, materials or whatever and different stuff like that. Like we had pretty good, you know, battle superiority for a while.

And you know, our company was pushed in position that we were rearranged to like the center of the town. Yeah. Basically. The way the history of the battle reads, it's like it basically day one or you know day two, everyone reaches their objectives. It's like that's what happens. We was quick.

I was covered. I was literally covered in sweat. All of us were, like, we walked so much, it didn't seem like it made sense to me. And, like, you can see it now in some of the photos I have. And thankfully, my wife had told me to take my little silver, like, Nikon. But, like, all of us are just, like, emaciated pale. And you can't eat enough to save your life there. And just pushing and pushing and pushing, shooting, pushing, shooting, pushing, shooting, pushing.

Take a building, hold it, shoot, shoot, make a plan, report up, make a plan, move to the next building. There was an incident where some civilians got killed. by a high mars artillery rocket and it was like a big deal right because it was 12 civilians killed 10 of them I think were from the same family and I think that was Bravo company

yeah so this hit the news and you know General McChrystal apologized and kind of banned the use of high Mars from there on out it was yeah it was another turn of events where I don't know if you guys were impacted by that No, no, I mean, we weren't, and I should say if it wasn't Bravo company, I don't know who it was.

I'm just trying to remember this to the best of my knowledge. Recall this to the best of my knowledge, but like, I mean, they would do things like they would take over buildings and, you know, they would be like there's civilians in here, but like you don't know that or not. Obviously, you would find, or they would say something happened after the fact, but I mean, that's all kind of a hindsight 2020 thing. And in general, they were smart enough to know that we were going to believe whatever they said or they knew we were listening. to their ICOM chatter. So you couldn't trust them. And so I'm not saying any of that was true or not true. It's just like you don't know, right?

And so we were always conscious of the civilians and everything because as soon as we got through, as soon as we got to our objectives, we started going through and doing a battle damage assessment and that's what we did for like a month afterwards, just going around how many people live here, what's your family's name, what's the damage done? Here's the form you got to give to the civil affairs person.

They'll cut you a check. In Ramadi, we had, the Haditha Dam story or the Haditha story had just broken. And so like you could see the Marines were very concerned about what they were doing because there was so much scrutiny on because of what had happened in Hadith or allegedly happened in Haditha. So I and I, you know, we had the same thing happen. Like if there were civilian casualties in Ramadi, it would be definitely turn up the volume of or I guess

turn up the intensity of scrutiny of what's happening, make sure everyone's doing the right thing. So if you have 12 civilian casualties. killed in an operation where everyone's got their eyes on it anyways. Like that's just going to be a bit of a gut check. And it was. I mean, there were so many people everywhere documenting it. They went on to make a documentary about it called The Battle of Marcia, the Ben Johnson, you know, and some of the guys advice had made.

Like there was news there every single day people covered. Have you watched that documentary? Uh-huh. How is it? I thought it was actually an accurate portrayal, you know? Yeah. It only highlighted one company, which is Bravo company. and Ben, you know, he was, he had told me he'd been in war since the 90s, you know, covering, like, you know, stuff in Africa and things like that.

It was a very, very good guy. Ben Anderson, not Johnson, Ben Anderson. And, like, I feel like it shows everything that had happened as much as you can. It's just, this is something I still struggle with, and I don't know if I ever will find peace on it, is it's really hard to have this moment in my life. life that's so publicly consumed and dissected, you know, by, especially by people who weren't there or who haven't done a version of this. And so it's, it's like a, it's like a, I don't say it's like a wound that never heals, but it's, it's just kind of like a, a thing that's hard sometimes. Because everyone who has like a negative opinion on it, I don't really care what they have to say, because they've never done anything about it or they say

they would do something differently. And I don't want to hear that. You weren't there. You don't know. You know, we're making the best decision with the stuff we had at the time. But, like,

it's this thing that's become, like, larger than just my deployment. It's something that, you know, went on to become a marketing campaign for the Marine Corps, went on to become something that people talk about. And it's hard to make peace with that legacy sometimes.

At least I haven't. What's the negative press or whatever? I mean, it's just, you know, like, you know, people say stuff these days. Like, oh, you know, sorry you lost your friends for lies or things like that. Like people will say stuff like that. And again, I don't really care about what trolls say.

You know more about that than anyone or anyone online knows about that. But like, I just don't understand. I don't, I don't really know how I feel about it still. Because it took so much for me. You know, and it took some Marines for me. You know, and it, you know, some of them didn't come home there. and then some of them, you know, some of them we lost when we came home. And it's hard.

It's really hard. I'm sorry. I just, only the dead have seen the end of war. And it's weird to see my life on such a public display the way it is. I just, just that one thing. You know, everything else I've kind of finely tuned and created to where I am now. But, like, you know, when I think about the things that I've had to work, through from that moment in particular it's just hard I don't know I'm sorry does

that make does that make sense no it does it does your if I was to try and translate that it's like you have your interpretation yeah and then you have all these other people with their interpretations that are maybe at odds or battling with or agree and disagree with certain parts of what you actually saw and live through and it can be hard to reconcile those things of how do you or let me rephrase that how do you reconcile those things and you know i'll tell you for me it's sort of like i know what i did and what i saw and that's kind of and i and i also known that i didn't see everything yeah that i didn't that different people saw different things and

just like different people have different perspectives of what happened and so you know my mind is just sort of like, yeah, there's, I had my experience and other people had their experiences and they're going to be, of course, they're going to be a little bit different. And people that weren't actually there at all, they can kind of say what they want. It's not really, their perspective doesn't have a whole lot of weight with me. No, and I'm getting to that place now. It's just, it's just been hard and, you know, especially because like, I'm in this position now to where like I try to be an advocate for all those, especially who didn't make it home, you know, and the ones we've lost when we came home. And, you know, and the ones we've lost when we

came home about this work, you know, because like, if you don't dig in to invest in yourself and to find out what happened, it's just a slow attrition of your soul, in my opinion. Because, you know, everyone who says they're not different after war is a liar or they need help because you should be different after war. You should. If you're like, I'm fine and like you're really fine, then you need to talk to someone because otherwise, if those experience haven't changed you or shaped you, then you're just not being honest to that experience. Yeah, and the way I look at that kind of thing is like, oh, oh, you get sad when you think about the friends you lost. That's totally normal.

It is normal. And it's okay. Yeah. So, yeah, if you were like, oh, I lost my friends and I don't care, I'm moving on, that you're right. That would be weird. Scary. Yeah. But most guys, unfortunately, they think, well, I'm sad.

I feel sad that I lost friends. And they think there's something wrong with that. There's not wrong with that. Of course. You know, you get, you, you know, Memorial Day. Memorial Day is really hard for me. Yeah, of course. It should be.

Lost a bunch of friends. Yep. That's the way it is. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. That's okay. And again, for me, that's at some point I realized that, oh, actually, I can tell you when I realized it.

I was doing a podcast with a guy who had served in World War II, Korea, Vietnam. And he was an unlisted guy in World War II. And they became an officer in Korea. And then he was served in Vietnam. and we were just talking, we got all the way to Vietnam, and he was a battalion commander in Vietnam, and I said, you know,

we were talking to what they were doing and what missions they were doing, and et cetera, and I started asking him about casualties, and he started getting choked up. And I thought to myself, oh, this is normal. The guy's been out of Vietnam War for 60 years, and he's thinking about the guys that he lost,

and he's getting choked up. This is what it is. This is normal and it's okay. And that's when I, that actually helped me out a lot. And as soon as I process, I didn't process it at the time. I kind of did process it at the time I was like, because I was surprised. You know, you're talking to a guy that had lost guys in his battalion

60 years prior. And you think, oh, okay. What I thought to myself was, I'm always going to feel like this. and that's perfectly fine. The guy had a normal life. I mean, he got done with his career in the Army, carried on with the career in the civilian sector.

After he retired from the Army, so it's like, oh, okay, yep. Oh, you feel bad that you lost your friends? Yep, totally normal. Yeah. What is it they say, grief is just love with no place to go? That's what I think about. This is all very new.

I've been able to do a lot of like really deep dive therapies on this. You know, I did the retreat through vets. You know, they were able to help me out, you know, went south of order. like ayahuasca. I began in DMT. It really helped me to kind of put stuff in place. And, you know, it's just tough. I don't know. Because like we as a culture, especially, and it all comes from, it all comes from this. When I went on my first appointment, we came back,

there were guys that said they were messed up and they couldn't do anything and they didn't feel good. And the way we cast them out as cowards, weak and less than because at that time if you weren't deployable you weren't useful and if you're a coward you don't want to do it you're nothing to us get out leave we hate you you're done go away that's stuck that's stuck with i think it stuck with a whole generation of dudes um because like you start to view that that that um that desire for help is weakness because if you're not deployable then you're not promotable then you're done they had ways of not calling it that but you know six months not motorable your career's dead you're done that's a wrap see you around later adios goodbye and i think it stuck

it definitely stuck with me way long and never should have you know because the thing that made me good as an infantryman was the thing that hurt me the most i could put stuff in my pack and i carried a long way until a point to where that pack got too heavy and then it started to hurt everything around me so i had to work on that yeah that's another thing i learned from the book about face by hackworth he talks about the fact he's like yeah some guys great guys and they could do anything and at a certain point, their cup, he said everyone's got a cup and that people have different size cups and when they get overfilled, that they can't do it anymore. And he said it's nothing against them. It's like if I was mad at you because you were, how tall are you? Five seven. Like if I

was mad at you because you weren't six foot. Yeah. I can't hold that against you. That's just what you, that's just the way you are. It's and different people are different ways. And if Hackworth is saying that after being in in Korea and Vietnam, like you go, okay, this guy understands this situation. And so that's for me, another thing that helped me out was, oh yeah, the guy's just got a smaller cup

and needs a break. And that's something I learned from Dick Winters is guys, if their cup starts getting close, you got to get them out of the combat for a little while and give them a little rest because they can empty out that cup

on their own. But if it overflows, man, there's water everywhere and it's a disaster. So you've got to get the guys which unfortunately what you're talking about if you got a guy that says hey I can't do this right now

you say okay cool we need somebody to train Marines we need somebody to work over here you can work on the range you give them some kind of downtime and they can adjust but if you say oh you're a coward well that's yeah that's definitely that's definitely not going to help because now they think there's something wrong with them

well there's nothing wrong with them they just need a little break because humans are not really meant to do this for extended period of time and over and over again, you're just not really meant for. Are you meant to, you know, get four of your friends together

and go kill the woolly mammoth or whatever as cavemen? Yeah, you're meant to do that. We're scared. Yeah, we got meat for two months, right? We're good. But we're not meant to just get exposed to that over and over again.

Your friends are getting killed. You're scared of getting blown up and dying. You got all the pressure from the system itself of, are you making the right decisions at the right time? So you add all that stuff up. That can make a person, break if you're not careful.

Well, and for me, and personally, just to go back, like, prior to the mission launch, I'd had this, my wife was still, was, so prior to finding out my second daughter had been born, all my friends were trying to get word, right? And we didn't have a phone or anything. And we were probing the security sector prior to the launch into Marja, and I took out these French reporters. And Ryan assigned them to me, and he's like, they're your responsibility. And I was like, please, Lord, no.

He's like, they're yours. And I was like, okay, we went out and contact, and they drop. They go flat. They go flat like two crapes instantly. They're like, no, no, no. And I'm like, come on, dude, we got to go. We got to go. And he's like, no, monsieur, we're not going.

And I was like, you're not going. Like, you need to go. You're going to die. No, no, no, no. We're scared. And I was like, I get it. You're French, but you got to go. We got to leave.

And so, like, and he goes, no, no, no, no. And that's like, I grab him by the back of his flag. And I was like, move. and like as I'm doing it I'm like popping off rounds and we go back we get to the patrol base and everything you know and he gets back and he goes m'su you have saved my life and I'm so grateful for you and all this stuff and I go oh that's really really cool um and you know I was able to do that and he goes you have anything for me or the associate of press you let me know I go actually I need something from you my wife is pregnant with my second child and I'm trying to find out if she's given birth to our daughter. I know you're from the Associated Press and I imagine they sent you out here with a cell phone. Would you please let me borrow that cell phone so I can call home and see if my daughter's born? It won't be long to be a quick thing and I'll get right back to you and he goes,

regretfully I do not have a cell phone. And I was like, what do you? What do you mean? He goes, enough cell phone. I was like, they sent you out here without a cell phone? And he goes, we. I know. Okay.

Well, here's the deal, Jock. Either you're going to give me that cell phone or I swear to guys. God, I'm going to take your ass back out there, and I'm going to leave you, and no one's going to stop me, no one's ever going to find you. And by this time, all my Marines are there, and they're looking at him, and they're cracking knuckles, and they're like, we'll do it. We'll do it in a heartbeat, dude. We don't care.

USA, USA. And he opens up his flack, and he looks at me, hands me the phone. And he goes, America's country code is zero one. And I grabbed it, and I go, your goddamn right it is. And so I went and I called my wife, and I found out my daughter was born and all these things. And immediately after, as I handed the phone back to him, explosions were going off. And then, like, those moments are sealed in my brain. And jump cut, months later, we're now in Marcia.

And that's happening every single day. Every single day that's happening. And I just, I can feel it. I can feel the pressure. I can feel the danger. We didn't do security patrols. We didn't do contact patrols. We did combat patrols.

That's how they were briefed to me, and that's how I briefed them. And as the spring offensive started happening, they started cultivating, the poppy and everything else. We, um, my platoon, um, we, we lost a Marine. We lost the Marine in our platoon. And, um, you know, he was, he was a really good kid. He was the best, one of the best Marines ever met in my entire life. And, um, when, when we lost, when we lost, when we lost Philip, I, I don't, I don't think any of us who were ever prepared for anything like that. And, you know, Nobody did anything wrong. Nobody made any mistakes.

It was just what happened. And we, after that had happened, there was a reorganization of the platoon. There was a reorganization of the entire company not long after that because we had to break up different platoons. We had to make them smaller to stretch ourselves out across the battle space. And First Sergeant and the CEO, they sat down. talked to us and they had talked to me and they said, Zach, do you want to do this? And I said, I'll do it. I'll take those Marines. I'll lead them because in addition to Philip, well, the squad leader as well was injured, but he was injured in the incident as well. So we were down

a squad leader and down a Marine and our platoon was hurting. And they asked me if I could do it. And I said, I'll do it or die trying. And that's what I did, the remainder of the deployment. but it was the hardest thing I've ever done, hands down. Hands down the hardest thing I've ever done. You know, everyone was hurt, everyone was scared, and it was just my job to, hey, we've got to go. So, in the time that had happened, I had started to make the decision that I wasn't going to do this anymore.

You know, we lost him, and then we literally had to just continue the mission. We had until, you know, we were there until July something to the 20th, something like that. And we were doing ops twice a day then every day. And they were not stopping. They were not stopping. It got more and more dangerous. When my Marines got injured, you know, he was in a truck, a ricochet hit him.

You know, we didn't know a bullet had hit him, actually. It hit the NVG plate. And he was talking to me as, you know, he was in my hands. They pulled him out of the truck, you know, gunnery started him Brian Walker. showed up to come he had turned a logistical supply train unbeknownst to the battalion i'll say this publicly he had turned it to a mobile section but he had come originally he's like it's a look it was a logistics train but he had turned his his company platoon he had turned it to a mobile section and um you know he came there and he you know he had provided a casabaks we were able to get him

out of there and um he was actually uh he had snapped me out of it when i was that was trying to get the blood off my hands, you know, trying to figure out what to do next. And it was just, you know, that's the stuff I think about when people were, you know, asking what it was like or how it was. It's just those moments of, you know, until then I had been in positions of influence, but when I was in a position of leadership, that's what I really understood the burden of command. Because no one knows what it's like when you give an opinion, but when you've got to make a decision, turn left or turn right, that's when everything changes. and it changed for me. And so when they came to me and, you know, they're like, Zach, you want to reenlist? And it was the same day, one of my friends lost both of his legs and went on to become a

Paralympic sled hockey player and won a gold medal. But at the time, I thought I'd lost another friend. I was like, no, I don't want to reenlist. I want to go home. I want to be a husband and a father. Yeah, that, um, that, they officially declared that operation over in December. December 7th. And it got worse the whole time, like you were saying.

Literally, like we did a rip. Two guys died in the rip. One of the guys I took on, one of the guys I took out, his name was Lieutenant Zimmerman. He didn't make it much longer after that. Again, nobody was doing anything wrong. It's a game of numbers and it's a game of math. You do more patrols, there's just a higher chance of risk.

Every time, it's just literally, the more chance there is for variability, the higher the risk is. And that was the unit that replaced us. And I mean, by that time, they had all the money from all the opium and they were, they were just making bombs and things every day. So now you're going home. When was your reenlistment supposed to have? When was your EOS?

So February 11, 2011, 2011. Yeah. But they offered me a package. They're like, hey, you can do this. You can get like 30 grand. You got to deploy again. I remember just sitting in a tent smoking a cigarette. I was like, not a chance.

I was like my first sergeant even came to me and he was he had actually been there with my friend Luke when he got injured and he told me he hated me he hated me I was kind of I don't know if you've gathered I'm a scoundrel then like I had long I had a low reg we called a navy seal reg is that what you guys call it I thought I was whatever like he once brought me out and said wait is a low reg referring to your haircut that was what I had a low reg so it was barely long on the top barely faded on the sides. He once brought me in front of the company and said, Marines, you get a haircut this weekend. Don't look like goddamn Bill. Like, what thinks he's a fucking movie star or something? Like, because I would do it the high and slide. It would go up and I'd

slick it to the side and put it in the back. But he once told me, he's like, I hated you, Bill. He's like, but now he's like, you're not bad. You don't need to do this anymore. That's what he told me. He told me. He's like, you're a husband, you're a father. He's like, don't do this anymore. Don't miss your family's life. He's like, go home. I'm proud of you. And then like, that's legit. He's like, Stass Arndine, he's going to come in here. He's going to tell you some bullshit. Don't fucking fall for it. And like, he left. I was like, God, I had so many great leaders in my life. You know, contrary to my life prior to that, I had these people that, like, really cared and taught me so much.

And, like, there's just these moments that stick with me. And so when we came back in July, my wife's like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to go to college. Let's go back home. Let's go move to Nashville, Tennessee, where she's from. And let's start there. Let's do that. And that's what we did. We packed the car, you know, a 26-foot trailer. I put everything in there, and we left Camp Lejeune and the four of us and onto our great adventure. How did it feel last time taking off your uniform and saying goodbye to the boys? It broke my heart.

You know, those are the only family I ever really had. There still are, but, like, you know, I wasn't the first one to leave, but I was, like, close to the last. You know, it's tough. because your concern is who's going to look out for them. No one will love them or look out for them the way you will. And, you know, it's, it sucks. I don't know. I still think about it.

I always wonder what would happen if I would have stayed in, you know, that shift. I wanted to be an officer is what I was going to do. I didn't know you had to go to college and stuff like that. I didn't know that I thought they just go, you son. You know, I thought they'd just come here. And, you know, and then a nobleman, you know, he like, he does like a secret handshake and you're like, and you like level up and you're like, oh, no. And the war is big enough and bad enough. That does happen.

It's called the Battlefield Commission. Get some. Yeah, it wasn't the last one in 1967 or something like that. Yeah, I don't, there hasn't been one since NOM. I'm almost sure. Yeah, it was in NOM. I think it was the last one. But I was, you know, I feel like there was more than enough stuff that happened.

Not with me, but just anyone. I kind of wanted to see it happen. But I just, you know, I. because I wanted a longer career, a higher quality of life, more family time. Those are the things I was looking at because my goal was to try and stay with the infantry if I stayed in, but I wasn't going to be able to stay enlisted. Like you just can't run that long. And, you know, but I just wanted to go to college and no one of my family had ever done that.

And I wanted to be the first. And the GI Bill, they're talking a lot about it and how it had changed and all this stuff. You get like a housing allowance. And I was like, okay, let's let's see that dog hunts. and, you know, off to college I go. But before we did that, actually, the craziest thing of all is I desperately wanted to be a dad and a father so much that 30 days after I got back from Afghanistan, I'm in Disney World with my wife and two children. And it's funny because when I'm in the sun, my hair gets really, really, really blonde. And so it's still blonde from Afghanistan.

But like I'm posing with like Tinkerbell and Mickey Mouse. And so it's the most jarring, like, 30-day journey ever me being like, smile and like just trying to be a dad again. But that's all I wanted. It's all I've ever wanted. Be a husband and a father. It's the best title I've ever had, those two. But we did that. We went home and then we started trying to, you know, build a life together.

So is going to college? What did you get your degree in? A few things. At first it was rough. The GI Bill is good and it's great. 2011, education wasn't where it needs to be with like, VA certifying officials and things like that. So I had to bounce around a few schools until I found one that stuck.

You know, there was only one school that accepted at that time. It was a Middle Tennessee State, and I did like a year there, and it was like an hour away from where we lived. And so I eventually, like, moved over to a different community college and was there for a year, and then I was able to go to a small private Christian university based on Nashville called Lipscomb. And that's where I graduated at the Bachelors. And that was all.

On the GI Bill. I got a bachelor's in the master's. I got a bachelor's with the GI Bill. And then with Vogue rehab, I was able to get a master's. What vocational rehabilitation is a program that the VA has designed where they can give veterans if they qualify for extra education, job experience, or training in order to get the things they need to succeed in the career field. And at that time, the position I was in, I needed a higher level, graduate level degree. So I took my proposal to my case manager and everyone should look into this. And then they approved it. And I was able to get. My master's. How are you up paying for your family at this time? Like how are you buying diapers and freaking... Oh, I was working a ton of jobs. Okay. So you're just working on the side. So the first job I had after the Marine Corps, I couldn't find a job anywhere.

Like I literally went to a hotel and applied for a security job. And they said I was unqualified for any role of security. And had a real veteran moment to say the least in the park as I left. And I was like, what do you mean? I'm not qualified for it. Six months ago, I was in Afghanistan. God's most are a exterior environment. But I can't what, check tight.

the Tennessee Titans into this hotel before the game day. She's like, oh, well, it was just a whole thing, right? But I couldn't find a job anywhere. And I had done like jobs before all this, like working in hospitals because they always have jobs and they pay really well. And so I applied at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital and I decided to work there as a medical receptionist. It's the only job I get. No one else was hiring. No one cared. And I got that job while also work in construction with my father-in-law is a day laborer, but once a week he would let me go apply to jobs. And so for three years is what I did. I would get up and go to school, like eight to 12. Then I would, you know, get some lunch, and then I would sleep in my car for like a few hours. And then from like three to five,

I would work out. And then from five to seven, I would drive from school to work. And then I would work seven p.m. to seven a.m. And then Tuesday morning, my day was done. And then I would rinse and repeat for three years. That's what I did. Marine Corps sounded like maybe wasn't too bad. There was a real moment where I was like,

Afghanistan wouldn't that bad. But like, it taught me a lot of things. One, no one cares about your military experience, and that's fine. It's not that it's bad, but it doesn't mean that it puts you in a leg up too. There's literally nothing I can't do

or won't do to provide for my family. I didn't blink. Most of the people I worked with didn't even know I was in the Marines, like at all. Like the internet was new then. Instagram was new then. And only a few of my friends I worked with like around Veterans Day saw photos of me like in Afghanistan. And then they started telling everyone that the guy, I'm sure they thought I was crazy or something. So I was just a dude with weird, weird tattoos and working a job that elderly women for the most part worked, which is not a bad, but I was the only one as a medical receptionist. And they were like, hey, is this you and it's like me with the grenade launcher and I'm like yeah it's me like why are you here and I was

like well because you don't care about me like no it's just like a silly job I can get and I'm grateful I'm able to do my school work at night I got all A's through college because of that and it was hard but I didn't blink and I did that until I was able to get a job working at a nonprofit helping veterans and then they kept transitioning that into for-profit health care and just grind grind grind grind grind push so you end up with regular jobs like eventually But like the first job, for the first three years, that's what I was doing. Right. Okay. So after those three years, you graduate from college now. I got my bachelor's, and then I did an adult degree program to get my master's,

which meant I would go to college on like Tuesdays and Thursday nights. And what did you get your degrees in? So the bachelor's I got in psychology, because at that time, they were trying to add like an upper level graduate psychology program, like industrial organizational psychology. But by the time I graduated, that program wasn't ready yet. And a buddy of mine told me to apply for the NBA program. like I did and I got into it. I was like, all right, let's do that.

So you have your MBA? Yes, I do. Okay. And then what was your first like, what was your career going to be? And so Nashville, the two biggest industries are music and healthcare. It's the healthcare capital of the world.

And so there's all these like- And your guitar skills weren't up to par? I mean, I know GCE minor and D. That's all you need. Hey, yeah, you can play every song in the church, all that. Almost all country songs are those scores too. This is where me and you come. I've seen the one of you in Tulsi, but I'm not as good as either one of you.

And she's incredible. But no, I just do a health care job. It's kind of what everyone tells you to do. It's very lucrative. It's always going to be around, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I just did that. I worked in for-profit and nonprofit health care. So I started with the nonprofit veterans organization.

I moved into. And what are you actually doing? What's your job? The first job I started out was like a community relationship. manager is like a nonprofit. So it's like my job to partner with veterans organizations and to see how our organization could work with them. And it's called Centerstone Military Services. It wasn't called that at the time. But we had, you know, on person, I mean that online and in-person counseling. And we would partner with people like Team Rubicon, Mission Continues, Simper Fifa, things like that.

And then we, instead of like creating a program that they have, we just partner, right? And then I moved into like a different role to company that didn't exist much longer after that in 2016 where I was like a strategic sales manager. So it was my job where I managed like 50 healthcare solutions and I would match them to community-based hospitals all over the nation. Like one thing is a charge master. It's the machine that decides how a patient's charge, put those in the small places, find the charges that the systems are using aren't finding and then do things like that or, you know, patient repayment options, all those different things. They're trying to try. and increase revenue of these very, very small facilities that honestly are keeping a lot of these towns alive.

And you wrote some articles, too, for like New York Times articles and stuff like that? Yes, sir. I did. So how did you get into that? A good friend of mine, Thomas Mitchell Gibbonsneff, who I served with and we were in boot camp together. He was at, after he got out, he was in Bravo company, then he got in stay and became a stay team leader. But he had started riding for War on the Rocks at Georgetown, and then he got a job at a little known publication called The New York Times. And I'd always been like, I love your writing. He's like, well, you should do it. I was like, I'm not, you know, I'm just a redneck.

You know, I'm not a guy. And he's like, just try it, idiot. I was like, okay, and I did. And I submitted it. And that's the secret of life. I submitted it and they took it. And then I kept writing and I liked it. I liked the creative.

I love the creative. And just kept writing and kept writing and kept writing. And they kept taking them, you know, and that was a part of the at war blog. And it was a really cool, like, creative outlet that while I'm, like, wearing, like, you know, dress socks and pocket squares, I'm over here, like, talking about deployments or, you know, and at that time it was a creative outlet. I was using to try and, like, stay connected to all my friends who, you know, in 2011,

I lost my first friend to suicide. And I just started to notice that it was something that was starting to reverberate in my community. How did you hear about it? I was going to buy a car that day, and I was in the passenger seat in my car with my wife, and a friend of mine called me, and it was the first call I forgot like that. And we just pulled over and just started bawling both of us, you know. Marco had, you know, he had lost his battle. And, you know, that was the first one, but it wasn't the last.

It just, I don't know, it's darkness, it's pain, it's hurt. it's there. People pretend like it's not. But if you don't deal with it, if you're not ready, if you're not preparing, if you're not training, it comes for you. If you don't have those reps in, Lord only knows what will happen. And, you know, he had been injured and he was trying to go back in the Marine Court at one point. And he had like kind of waived his VA rights. So when he tried to go back in, they took back his VA benefits because you can't have those and go back in. And then he lost access to care.

And then it was quick. And like that's happening in the background of my life constantly. Like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And that was the first one. And then after that, I knew how the calls were. I know how they are with my phone rings. I can tell my body knows before my mind does every single time, every single time. I don't know how, but I do.

And, you know, it just kept happening. So I was like, maybe I can, like, put some attention towards it. Maybe if I write, maybe if I do something. And, you know, when I was with a nonprofit, I became the only, you know, and it's like the veteran guy that everyone would call, hey, I need this, hey, need that, we know about this, we know about that. And so I'd match my friends to organizations, resources, things that could help them, simplify fun, Travis Mannion Foundation, anything out there that can help them reconnect

and find the community. That's what I was pushing out there. And what made you get out a magic marker and a piece of cardboard for the first time? I was reading a book called Dispani, I was, no, I was, no, I was, the last article I wrote for the New York Times was in 2018. They made, it's called the Marines of Marja. And it was a choose your own adventure book. And if you turn left, you would shoot.

Wait, this was a New York Times article? Yes. This was a book. This is a book that was released and it's called the Marines of Marja. I still have one copy of it. I'll send you a photo of you want to see it. And it was like, choose your own adventure. Turn left.

Do you engage the two enemy snipers? Or do you turn right and sneak around. them. Was it a kid's book? It's a kid's book. Yeah. Spoiler alert. I know you might not watch it or read it, but like if you engage the enemy snipers, ends up being two civilians, you commit a war crime, and that's what you did. And then I was like, well, I wrote an article about how I don't think we should do that. It's really hard. I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to talk about this moment and time to my family, and you've really kind of made this into something that it's not. And the reaction of that was they pulled the books off the line, they issued a full apology, and they re-evalued

their whole thing. Like, they had a full rebuttal, and they contacted the New York Times and apologized for everything. And it was like, wow, there is some power in the written word. And that had kind of stuck with me, you know? And so I was just at home with my wife and my children during the pandemic, which I know was very, very hard for so many people, and I'll never minimize that, but without a doubt, it was some of the best time of my life with my family. I had been traveling and doing things for so long that I hadn't really been able to be connected to my family. And I hadn't been home continuously for that amount of time. We made a fort downstairs.

We watched Justin Bieber's TV show. Like we did hobbies. We hung out. I put an inflatable thing in the living room for like a little bounce house for them. It was awesome. It was awesome. And then I started looking online and I was like, it's been a while since I've done something creative. And I saw these pages.

it was like a dog with a sign, a crossfitter with a sign, a jaco with a sign, like something. It was just like whatever. And I was like, I've got cardboard, you know, like. Got a Sharpie. Yeah. I believe in Sharpies, yeah. Yeah. And I wish there was a better origin story, like a piece of cardboard spoke to me or something.

But like I was just, you know, I thought it was funny. I'm just fascinated by language and culture. In the military, we say things and they don't, they don't have the meaning the way we say them or the spelling's different. You know, a POG is a POG. and stuff like that. You know, we have acronyms for stuff that doesn't need to exist, and we do for things that don't. Like, it's all the stuff.

And I just started riding on them. And I started in March of 2020. The first one was drink water, take Motrin. No, take Motrin, drink water, and change your socks. And I was like, cure for COVID. And I was like, I was like, I'm Shane Gillis. You know, I'm just the king of comedy right now. I'm revolutionizing this platform.

And I took the photo and clicked. And I was like, all right, that's it. I made the character, like, the idea of the person is he's a veteran with the sign, but he refers himself as a warfighter, you know, and he wears, like, a hat and sunglasses and he talks like this. You know, like, this is all, like, who he is in my mind. It's like me turned all the way up, turned to 11. You know what I'm saying?

Like super chat. Yeah, super chat. I love that. Yeah. And, like, I just kept doing it. Just kept doing it, kept doing it, kept doing it, kept doing it. and no one got it for a long, long time. They probably still don't get, I don't get it.

I think everybody in the military freaking gets it ASAP. They did not. They did not. At first there was a lot of attention on my body and my bad tattoos. That was like, you know, it was like, Chaco one, two, three. Why does he wear the same thing every time?

Why does he, you know, what's his tattoos? This is dumb. Ba, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, and it kept going, it kept going, he kept going until like um eventually there was one that I put up it said bring back captain Crozier um he was the commander of the ship who got relieved when he was like my my ship all my says have COVID and the white house was like no you don't and he's like we we do we have the most COVID on the ship can you please and they're like no you don't he's like please and then he leaked all

that stuff to the news outlets and then there's the iconic video of him getting relieved of command and the ship's just humming and just they're all like captain Crozier boom boom boom boom Boom, boom. And I put up the video. I mean, I put the post. It said, bring back Captain Crozier. And that was, that was what that one got out. And this, this sailor who went on to Wednesday of the year, Sierra, she shared it. And then people shared it. And then what happened after that is it activated like all my old posts. And then all my old posts got loved. Like, it just started just wind falling and just going and going and going to a point to where I was like, I need to turn notifications off of my phone. This is, this is just, just started. just so much input. This is so radical. It's constant. Likes, comments, likes, follows. Boom, boom, boom. And, you know, since that moment, I've just been trying to keep it on the tracks and trying to be a good advocate for the community. And, like, you know, there's been moments. Like, I remember when, I remember when you followed me. That was, that was a big deal.

Dude, I told a lot of people. I told a lot of people. Dude, I remember when Tulsi followed me. Tulsi followed me. And she's like, hey, I want to make a sign. Can I make one? I go, man, can do whatever you want like you're you're one of my heroes are you are you kidding me tea of course you can yeah and she put a sign up i don't know i would have to like i don't even understand or i don't think too much i don't see a bunch of stuff so i forget like following you i forget what triggered that or whatever there must have been some i trolled you what'd you do um well first off i was experimenting with the platform and i don't i don't feel like this table is big enough for me to have this conversation with you there's way too much distance i mean the way

You're way too close. I need more distance. But I had made the Navy SEAL joke about, and there are few of the SEALs I know, like, Eddie, I know Sean Maston, you know, I know the LaTrells, and they're like, they're fine. I'm like, guys, I make fun of me too. Like, we're all open source.

It's not derogatory. It's just a little joke, right? You know, how do you know I was in the infantry? Just wait, I'll tell you. You know what I'm? It's the same thing. And like, I said something. It was just me in black and white,

and I'm holding up a sign that says good. and I was like everyone let jaco know and then they tagged you so many times that he just wrote something and I was just like holy shit what is happening you know and like it was just this thing where like it shifted from like jokes and memes

to like oh I might need to be careful here what is my goal and it was pushing back to my goal of like now that you're here look at this get some help hey you're a veteran looking for some way to plug in the community check out Travis Mande foundation doing great things all over the country making sure people are connected to the community and being advocates for change or what about this organization vets that helps veterans of psychedelic treatment symper five fund gary sneeze fund the list goes on and on and on and on but i can't

i can't talk about that that's my message if you talk about the same thing over and over you'll get suppresses in the right word it just won't reverberate it just won't be out there so it's mixed in there kind of like three card money and it's the ace you know where's the ace and i'm mixing it up It's a meme. It's a joke. It's whatever. That's the ace. That's the thing I'm trying to pull you back to.

Mm-hmm. You know. And so what is this turned into? Like, it's got, it's kind of like, I see other people with signs on your page. What's that all about? Anyone who can do it, can do it. If anyone who wants to have a message, I want to be a part of it. It can't just be me.

I want it to be everyone. I want to open sources. You know, like I said, like Tulsi's done it. A lot of influencers have done it. People I know have done it. I want you to do it. Will you do it? I probably want to.

won't hold a book cardboard sign with a magic marker writing on it, but I'm sure we can figure something out. That's a yes. You heard it here on Jocco. He said yes. Thanks, man. Let me see one of these knives real quick. No.

Well, no. So the idea is that the warfighter, the veteran with a sign is anyone. It's anyone who wants to say something. I've expanded it beyond just like veterans. I want cops, police to say it. Like the California Highway Patrol sends me stuff. They're like, stop speeding and, you know, stop texting and driving. I'm like, okay, cool.

I'll upload that. That's awesome. Yeah. You know, I just wanted to be a message. And like, to me, I'm experimenting with the platform in the sense of, like, I want it to be something where it's not just the word, but also maybe your outfits are part of the message or maybe the background's part of the message. Like, you know, recently I went to Shot Show and the NSSF reached out to me and they're like,

we're doing a push for mental health. We want you to come out and do it. And I was like, done. I'm in. And so it's just me at Shotshow holding up cardboard signs talking about their, you know, their mental health push. And it's just things like that. And so I'm trying to be that disruptor to where I can normalize the military experience and, you know, be a good advocate for mental health. Yeah.

One thing I like about it's, remember old Twitter? Echo Charles, where you can only have 140 characters. Well, wasn't it like 70? No, it's 140. Then it became 280. Oh, okay. And then now. you can do whatever you want okay oh right you just got crazy yeah you know which there was there's an

argument for that as well but there was something about 140 characters that was kind of cool yeah oh right and what i like about the what you do is i don't know how many words you can but it's like 20 is the most yeah and my hand cramps and i'm just like i hate the way it looks i try to go 12 to 15 so so that's pretty cool when you've got to be concise with your message concise enough that you can get it on a piece of cardboard that easily. And it's working, man, because people are reading those things, myself included. Yeah, it's, it's fun to work with the platform and the thing. And so I've changed it into what I'm doing to get like multiple images where it's like

a flip book. It's called a carousels with the type of post is where you go slide one, slide two, slide three. And so that's, I'm expanding on. But like, I noticed there was a gap in the conversations that I wanted to have and the things that I was saying. So like, I was like, well, I'm in my 30s. I'm a veteran. Time to start a podcast.

Like, that's literally like where it's like expanded into because like I've noticed this community. You like that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, it just becomes like, I wanted to have like a deeper connection and to really like you're just limited. I was just limited in what I was able to say.

Like, like one of the things I say and it was hard to expand. on and so I've tried to constantly expand on now is like post-traumatic stress disorder to me is when you come to the realization that the memory of who you were is better than the reality that you are and when that happens it's almost impossible not to hate yourself because you remember who you were before the trauma before the event and then you see where you are afterwards the wreckage the damage whatever you want to call it when you see that it hurts and the only way to really kind of do that in my opinion is to talk about it and to normalize it not in a way where it's like traumatic towards an individual or other people listening but you really just got to kind of humanize the whole

thing you know you know what I'm saying and um I saw how limited I was with that and like more of my connections to these types of um expansions of this universe whatever you want to call it it was just kind of limited to like DMs and stuff from like me connecting people to resources and so I was like let's push this in a different way and so I I just started a podcast on it because I'm loquacious, I guess. I just want to talk. And this is the after-action podcast, right? Yes, sir.

And how's it going? You like it? I like it. People trust me with their stories, and it's hard. It's very, very hard. You know, in Nashville, there was an incident with a school shooter, and I was able to connect to all the officers there, but the two in particular that took the shooter down,

and one of them is a fellow Marine, Michael Collier. and we became friends and over the course of however a year I you know we still we hang out all the time and he's like I want to tell this story and I was like oh okay you know and I was like I'll help you I'll push you not push you I'll help find a place where you can feel comfortable telling your story and got connected to a few people and he just didn't feel comfortable about it and then eventually he just sat down he goes why don't we do it and I go I'm I've never done this I don't know how it'll go you know and he's like well I'm gonna do it and he trusted me with it and so we did we tell we sat down

and we told that story and you know it's taught me a lot about myself and others and you know and people trust me in the moment because I try to take a lighthearted approach and a humanizing approach to the things that we've been through and the people that have talked to and you know everyone has been a part of it's someone that's had a very big impact on my life and you know it takes time obviously as you know but like I learned so much from it Like every time I get up, I'm like, man, that was cool. Like the opposite of what I'm doing to y'all. Like, I'm taking it from y'all.

But like, well, no, because like, Brian Walgran told me this. The most important thing we have in life is time. And when someone gives that to you, you cherish that, you understand that, you respect it. Because you can never give it back, but they gave it to you. So I try to do that. Does that get us up to speed?

Is that where we're at right now? Kind of. I still can't believe I'm here. I still can't believe. I literally can't believe I'm here. I literally can't believe I'm here. I literally can't believe I'm here. You know, because it's just, it's,

no one more than me is fascinated by the fact that 14 years ago I was in Marja and then jump cut, COVID happens. I'm like, you know, I'm just writing a joke about Navy Seals. Oh, yeah, Navy Seals write books. And I'm sitting across from one of the most well-known Navy Seals ever. You, Charlie Sheen, Dick Marcinco, you're the most well-known Navy Seals ever. And, you know, and, you know, and, I'm sorry. And like, now we're here to a place.

where we're talking about this and like I just um you know I I there was a moment where I wanted to quit all of it all of it and it's when you know it was in it was in June of 2020 when my my best friend took his life like Mike took his life and I was like what am I doing you know if that happens what am I doing what is this for and am I ever going to affect change and he knew everything I was doing. He knew everything I could have helped him with and all the stuff that was available to him. And to be honest, if anyone could have got a green light

to where I'll put pressure on relationships that might hurt them to save him, wouldn't have blinked. And he knew that. And, you know, he just, he wasn't able to come home. And, you know, after Marja, he was just never, same and when I think about why I still do this stuff now why I push so hard I think about fighting for him right I think about what I need to do to make sure that I don't

put anyone in the round next to him that's why I keep going that's literally it I'm tired I would really love to like kind of fall back and get into like a statesman position to be like I used to be on the internet that was cool back then now I'm just I'm just a dad I'm just a cheer dad I'm just a husband I'm just a father you know I don't have any promo codes I'm not here you know I'm just a guy but I feel I feel like it's my final mission to fight to fight to make sure that people know they're worth it and so that's that's literally it that's what keeps me going and you know he's he's a person that was so important to me that when I got the when I found I was coming here, I would have called him.

I would have called him. He'd just be like, hey, guess what? He has this big Boston accent. He'd be like, what's that kid, you know. He talks like Ben Affleck and Matt Damon is what he sounded like. And, you know, that's why I'm still doing this stuff now. Because I feel like I'm in this place where I'm supposed to be the one to show that there is peace beyond the battlefield and that it's worth it and that you're worth fighting for.

Yeah, you're spreading that message, man. Yeah, veteran with a sign.com. That's where people can find you. You're on Instagram and Facebook, ad veteran with a sign. You're not on Twitter. I am, but that's my name.

I haven't made like a veteran with assigned brand. It's just Zachary e-bell. I would recommend you do that, you know, just in case, man. You got to, you know. Yeah, cover the basis. I'm on TikTok. Are you on TikTok?

No. You will be soon. There's someone that, There's someone that like takes my stuff. Yeah. That I know. That takes my stuff and repost it and repurposes it. Yeah.

Through TikTok. Yeah. But that, but I don't actually have it like for myself. Yeah. And you know, you're asking me like, do I actually do all my social media?

And the answer is yes, I do it all. So I can't really do that with TikTok because it's such a invasive, um, uh, platform or whatever app. It's porous is what is what, if you just say a few words in it,

you'll see whatever you want to see. and they'll serve up ads to you. It's very, very porous. It's security is what I'll say. Interesting. Leaky. Yeah. But right on, man.

Echo Charles. Yeah. You get any questions? Yeah. Please. Just with the signs and stuff because I've seen a few of them. Yes, sir. Did you see the jujitsu one before?

No. Okay. So there's a jujitsu guy with a sign. Yeah. His name's Ian Funk grappler with a sign. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys all know each other kind of.

He's a Marine Corps veteran. everyone should check out grappler with the sign he says some of the best stuff ever i i did jihitsu for many years i had a i had a reconstructive nose surgery and then all the i wasn't able to get into it me and echo were talking about this earlier like i wasn't able to work wasn't able to work out for like three months and then six months before i could roll and then covid happened and i need to go back to it but i'm terrified of breaking my nose again because i was i had sleep apnea because of it it is bad but um ian's a great guy um grapple with the sign i love what he talks about because like They're so motivational and like he's somewhere in California.

Are they inside jokes too? Yes. So that's the whole thing. Yeah. And I do have a question a little bit just to kind of confirm. But yeah, so at first and I'm so actually I'm going to have to admit it to you. I like you a lot. So I'll be honest.

Okay. I kind of got you mixed up with him. That's fine. Oh, dang. Yeah. But it's, you're right. Grappler with a sign. Yeah.

So anyway, but it's just figured that out like right now? No, no, no. Before before, before like a few days ago. You saw both of our abs and you're like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was not funny. But, that's the whole premise, right? The signs are funny.

It's like, it's almost like, but there's an actual format to it, right? Like you can't just say anything that's funny. It has to fit that with a sign thing, almost as if to say, hey, I don't know who needs to hear this and has a slight tinge of obviousness to it almost. You know, kind of like some people might not know this or might be ignoring this message kind of a thing. You know, and there's a few different, different kind of like, do you have a format that you're like following? And you're breaking this down Barney style as they say. Yeah. So everything I do is like with a wink and a smile, right?

Yeah. So every Navy still writes a book. Yeah. Wink, smile. Yeah. You know, um, it's all in that like,

because it has to engage and be something that's like, shareable. Yeah. Like so. Because when people share stuff, they're trying to say something like I feel this way. Yeah. Echo feels this way blank.

So it has to, it's almost like it's so powerfully relatable. Yes. Like where it's like, I'm going to break it down for you. It's a handwritten meme. Stop, stop, stop, cut this part. Yes, that's exactly what it is, yes.

It's a handwritten meme. The way to create virility, viral nature, is to make a meme. And so it is a handwritten meme. And the term is evergreen content, meaning I can make it 24-7, 365. It'll have application to it. There are a few, like, standouts, like holiday stuff. Like, I'll put up every Christmas, every, it's a list of all the Christmas episodes from the office. Stuff like that.

You know, Veterans Day, Marine Corps birthday. you know, national holidays, you know what I'm saying? Those things I'll put up. But like, yeah, it is a handwritten meme. That's really what it is. And really, if you think about this, because I think of a lot of the veteran with a sign, a lot of the things that you put up on a sign

would be the kind of stuff like if you went in the freaking head on a ship. Yes. Like someone would write that shit on the freaking mirror or on the freaking, you know, stall wall or something like that. Yeah. It's the kind of stuff that would go on a bathroom wall in the military specifically, Or in a jihitsu gym, like the kind of stuff where someone would write that kind of grappler with a sign.

Yeah. So it. And what if you think about what those are, those are the kind of things that they're one-liners from like a conversation where somebody says something and everybody knows. Kind of that they're right. And it could be that they're right and they're funny. It could also be that they're right. And we need to think about this more. So it's a really cool format for communication.

Oh, yeah. Y'all should talk to him. Like he's such a good. good dude like and he was in the Marine Corps he was in the Marines it's funny his bio says I'm not veteran with the sign but I am a veteran with a sign okay even that right there yeah I love these get this flowers right now because he's he's such a dude but yeah it's like he has what was the one about you know remember when you were a white belt I think is one of his and I was like yeah dude like

because like you know as you get we're all jitzu guys here I mean but y'all are I did it for a while I don't take claim to it anymore but like there is a moment when you're like pure white belt mode and then like you settle down and you're like oh okay there's this is chess not checkers right you know yeah we gotta settle down instead of being like arm bar arm bar arm bar arm bar like you're just haunting arm bars forever instead you're like understanding the art the gentle arts of the smother his best not well she has a lot of good ones but one that i've always remember it's just and it has to do with the whole format of it and it just it's just a big saying it's the one actually i got turned on to him from it said you're the restaurant

Oh, damn. It's so far. Because, bro, I'm telling you, like, okay, how many restaurants, you know, it's not obvious when you're the restaurant all the time. But every once in a while, if someone points it out, you're like, wait a second, bro, I'm the restaurant in this room right here, you know, kind of a thing. Anyway, it really landed down. He's good.

No, I love what he does. And he's even done things to, like, change the format as Instagram, like, prioritize his videos. So, like, now he'll slide in and put on sunglasses and then hold the sign up. and I'm like, hell yeah. Like I like that. I like that because like, you know, there's plenty of content and stuff to go around. I just like that, again, I'm trying to be an advocate for my community.

And he's a part of my community. We're all a part of that community, too, that he's advocating for. But, like, again, like, he's taking something that's kind of scary, a jihitsu community, which is, like, combat grapplers and making it, like, fun and, you know, like, lowering the barrier entry. That way more people understand it. And more people understand it than they'll want to connect to it. And, like, that's what I'm trying to do as well. He's just doing it for his in the best way.

Grap with the sign, check it out. And it's good to meet you. Oh, dude, I love this. Right on. Right on. Zach, any closing thoughts, man? No, I just want to say, again, thank you both so much for having me here. It's an honor and a privilege.

And, you know, if anyone else is out there looking for hope or needs any help, just know that you should stay because you're worth fighting for. Right on, man. That's an awesome message. And thanks for, thanks for joining us. Thanks for flying all the way out here and sharing your experiences and your lessons learned. Obviously, thanks for your service into Marine Corps. Thank you.

You and your fellow Marines absolutely upheld the proud fighting tradition of the Marine Corps. And, you know, finally, thanks for what you're doing today and continuing to help veterans get through what they went through. It's appreciated, bro. Thank you. And with that, Zach Bell has... left the building. Cool. Good thing to think about.

There's a law of combat leadership. Keep things simple. Simple, clear, concise communication. And you can see, that's what Zach Bell is out there doing. Simple, clear, concise communication. The lands. Yeah. And those messages resonate.

Help connect people with people. Also help keep people on the path. So here's one additional, maybe the main one. It's like the nugget of value for veteran with a sign. And just that whole idea. So it's like, again, remember how I was trying to analyze it? Like, what's up with this thing? Why is this so catchy?

Why do I want to see the next one, the next one, the next one, right? Because they're relatable. So here's the people with a sign. Oh, yeah, big time. And this is why. Because, you know, and maybe not. every single one is like this, but one of them, you know, after a few of them, you're going to be like, okay, cool, and you're going to get this where, you know, we go through life, you know,

we're on auto a lot of the time. Sometimes we're making our cool little pivots and decisions and making things happen for sure. But every once in a while, you get this small little nugget. It's almost like in passing. Get this little nugget. It's like a little reminder. Or a little like, hey, like a little like, hey, wake up real quick and like a little heads up. And that's what those do sometimes. And it works. And it works. last you know what I'm saying little perspective I think it's a it makes you reexamine little perspective or reignites the knowledge of a particular thing reignites the knowledge yeah you know like yeah that's a good point that is

and it's also interesting that you can get humor and you can get pondering you can get other emotions we'll say yeah it's not all just oh this is funny because you can read some of them and you can say, oh yeah, that makes me think. Oh, yeah, that makes me remember. Oh, yeah, that makes me sad. Using a positive way.

Yeah. Like a positive way of being sad. Yeah. Positive way of remembering. So that's what we're doing. Zach Bell out there. Keeping people on the path. Speaking of the path,

if you're on the path, you're probably working out. I hope, look, let me rephrase that. You're working out. We're working out to what we're doing. When we work out, we need fuel. We recommend DiGiaco Fuel now. You were telling me, before we started recording today,

that you had drifted off the path in one specific way, and you started to feel it. Yeah. Joint warfare. Joint warfare. It is. And look, we're not. How many times do you got to learn this lesson?

Bro, I know. I know. Here's the thing. You asked that question kind of like teasing or whatever, but it's, that's even as a micro-scolding, right? there like that's warranted because it is it's like I'm not learning the lesson you know like where you get on it okay our problem hey we're rolling good you know joints all this going hard and still you're kind of good you get off it and it

because it doesn't happen right away you know a month two months maybe you hit it hard and then boom you're back in the hurt locker as far as like the joints and you're like oh and then you kind of it's almost like you forget that you're off it that's my that's my reminder I need to make a sign for you that says take your joint warfare son Because that's the deal. Hey, we're back on it, but I did. And actually, I took this advice that you gave me years ago, by the way.

And I'm finally taking it where I just staged the actual joint warfare into my morning thing, which successfully I achieved the morning routine of creatine and hydrate in the morning every single morning with a cup of water, by the way. That's way more complicated, by the way. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Then just three joint warfare.

It's true. I put the whole bottle right there. It's just part of the little lineup, is I'm saying. Where did you keep it before? This doesn't even make sense to me. Okay. Not that we need to go too deep into it, but we will. You asked.

Like there's no possible way in my mind I could want to do something like take joint warfare and not stage it within eight inches of my toothbrush. Yeah. That makes sense. It's like not even feasible. You're right. And I get it. But when you really think of the reality of my routine, it makes sense.

Not that it's right, but it makes more sense than not. So the side is real quick. I sleep upstairs. All that stuff is downstairs in what we call a pantry. Wait, you don't keep joint warfare and super krill in your bathroom where you brush your teeth? Uh-oh. It's always been in the pantry. I'm not the only one who take this stuff.

There's a whole bunch of adjustments to do you do. Like your mind is not functioning properly. Yeah. I hate to say this. Look, I just haven't evaluated the system in a way that's ultimately. conducive to where we want to be. I get it. It's there now for sure.

Everything was in the pantry is what I'm saying. Everything. Even because I don't take everything every day when the stuff gets spit away. You want to keep milk in the pantry? That's cool. It is in the pantry. Because, yeah, it should be because that's food. It's when you're hungry.

Yeah. But you don't have joint warfare or super cruel or time war when you're hungry. I would be interested to see how many people have joint warfare and or cruel oil in the pantry and not in the bathroom or wherever you, you know. It's a low number, bro. People are smarter than this. You might be right. And that might have been a kind of a backhand.

Hey, well, it doesn't even matter now because I'm one of those people now. So boom, it's all in the lineup and the thing. Boom, good to go. GTG. So yeah, we're all good to go. All right. Yep. Hey, if you want to get some joint warfare so you can roll, work out, lift, train, and not feel like

you're 8,000 years old. Get yourself some joint warfare. Get some time more, too, by the way. Are we still doing the 100 burpees thing? Or is that kind of like part of a, It, okay. Listen, I have not been consistent with it, but it is now 100% part of my jam. Okay, sweet.

Like, like, it is in the, it's in the mix. It's in the mix. So, like today, I didn't do it yet. I mean, I lifted, of course, but I didn't do it yet, but it's in the mix. It's in the thing. So does it need to be? Do I need, maybe I need to. Maybe it just needs to be.

That's the protocol. Yeah. You know, just daily. And I'll tell you what, I have a, a. hill that I sprint it's in the middle of my so when I go for a run there's a hill that I sprint in the middle of the running course yes so I'm running you know it's like a few miles of running it's the daily run right but there's a hill good little hill nothing major but it's steep you know it's kind of that kind of hill and

when you run it you know I was hit the timer at the bottom so kind of just know how hard I'm putting out and sometimes it'll take you know 56 seconds 54 seconds But when you're doing good You can get in you know you're down to 49 you're down to 48 And so I just do you know I've been on the road a bunch So I hadn't run that course but during deaf reset I was doing that hundred burpees every day regardless

And I just did the run I did the hill 42 seconds Oh better better than normal the burpees helped the run The burpees definitely helped the run without as much running as normal So so that when I did that I actually was mentally prepared for like a 58 second, you know, like a bad time because I hadn't been running because I've been on the road.

Yeah. The burpees came through. Like it's like a supplementation. I actually knew a guy who was in the SEAL teams. He was one of my instructors. And you know what an eight count bodybuilder is? Yeah. Yeah.

So he said that he was on a submarine for like three months. As a seal. And he did some crazy number something like a thousand eight count bodybuilders a day and when he got off

he was the fastest he'd ever been for real yeah so I think I think I hit a similar scenario yeah it's like yeah it's weird that every once while you can stumble upon those routines that helps like these other routines you know and the mental benefit

that I learned from doing 100 burpees regardless of anything else and of course You know I really I was just a daily exercise of turning your mind off and going hard Yeah, which is which is two different things that you need to learn how to do simultaneously Yeah, turn off your mind and go hard at the same time. Yeah, if you want to get better at that do 100 burpees a day Yeah, as fast as you can. Yeah, you know we hit the stopwatch and then go. Yeah

It's a thing. Yeah, that's help you out. It's yeah, it's so true and a hundred break that's like such a good standard for that and it's because it's let's face Like it's not gonna kill you like it's not a death defying you know little routine But it's not nothing bro when you go out there you got to get your mind right go Yeah to kind of thing it's not nothing so yes you're correct um here's another one to throw in there just for the mix I know people like little routines this one's anywhere between 10 and 15 minutes and a little long butt go ahead yeah so you do it's a little 15 minutes is is a little bit harder throw in just into the mix I'm just saying 10 minutes yeah you can throw in the mix seven minutes and 30 seconds for 100 burpees.

That's in the mix real easy. So this is different than the 100 burpees. So, you know, I do a little METCon. Sometimes it takes six minutes, seven minutes, or whatever. So what I did was I combined it the same METCon. I just do more reps. So I just do four of these, right? So, you know, there's rep sets rounds.

So you got clean and jerk with 60% of your body weight. So in my case, that is one. I do dumbbells. I do 260 pounded dumbbells. Okay. Right. And then I go straight from there to jumping jacks, straight from jumping jacks to burpees.

How many jumping jacks are you doing? Okay. Are you doing it for time or what? No, no, yeah. Kind of both. So jumping jacks and then burpees and then sit-ups, right? Like, kind of like. Okay.

Okay. So those four exercises, right? So for the cleaning jerk, 10. Jumping jacks, 30. For a count no regular one two yeah no not not the four count just regular okay so 10 cleaning jerks 30 jumping jacks 10 burpees 20 sit-ups no one holding your feet or nothing like that you know the kind like as if you were playing like butterfly guard sit-up card or something like that's it that's one round you do four rounds of that with under one

minute rest that's a thing you don't want to go over a minute rest okay the faster the better for sure but you don't want to go one minute rest bro that's a good one it's like right on the edge where it's like when you're feeling like really really really really good you can go like you can do it all but if you're like kind of slacking you're like a minute or you know kind of a thing but it's solid that one's a good one try that one look there you go got a couple options out there and if you need to rebuild yourself when you're done get some milk protein get yourself Some hydrate. The hydrate's so good.

The hydrate's another thing that will satisfy your sweet tooth straight up. Yeah, it's like a drink. Oh, yeah. It's like a soft drink. Yeah, it's a soft drink. But it's going to replace the sweat that you have. It's got vitamin C in there. So that's what we're doing.

Check it out. Joccofuel.com. Get what you need. Also, you can go to Wawa. You can go to vitamin shop. GNC. A fees. Military commissaries.

Hanifer, dash stores, Wake Fern, Shoprite. H.E.B. Down in Tejas. Meyer Harris Teeter lifetime Lifetime Fitness that is Shields and and look small gyms you got a small gym or if you go to a small gym or you go to a big gym I mean let's face it lifetime fitness

Have you ever been one of those like yeah they're freaking monstrous monstrous gyms or maybe you go to a crossfit gym wherever you go ask them if they can get some jocco fuel in there to help you out on your path email jf sales at joccofuel.com that's what we're doing also you're gonna need some gear on your journey, get some American made gear. Don't support slavery. You know what's weird is if you went to a thousand people and said, does anyone here support slavery? In America, you'd get zero hands going up. Right. And yet, what are they doing with their dollar bills? A lot of people unknowingly, sometimes even knowingly. And sometimes

you kind of shrug your shoulders. Like, well, what can I do? Yeah. You know, well, hey, do you support slavery no well where do you spend your money oh it's on a bunch of stuff that's made in China oh so you you do support slavery and you may shrug your shoulders like well what am I supposed to do I'll tell you what you're supposed to do origin USA.com that's what you're supposed to do you go to origin USA.com and you order something that's made in America where the cotton was grown in America where the rivets on the jeans were made in America with a zipper's made in America where the Velcro's made in America where everything's made in America and then it's sewn together in

That's what we're doing. OriginUSA.com. Get boots, get jeans. And we're getting dialed, man. We, we've brought on board. There's something called a pattern maker. When you make clothing.

This is a critical role. So what is that? The pattern. So if you take the panels of whatever the thing is. But imagine, I mean, we take it for granted, right? Like,

oh, it's just a t-shirts, just a pair of jeans, just a pair of pants. Just take it for granted. You don't actually think about the geometry of how that thing curves around someone's body. And it's a huge difference. And it's a huge difference. So we've got pattern.

Some of these big companies, iconic, formerly American-made companies that now make their stuff in China, even though they're iconic American brands, they make their stuff in China now. But they still, the knowledge is here in America for how to set up the patterns. So guess what we did? We hired them. They're with us now. They walked away from the disgusting businesses that they were forced to be at because they didn't have a choice. Now they have a choice.

You know what they want to do? They want to make stuff in America. These are people that come from the background. These are people that grew up in this industry. And they had to watch factories get moved overseas. And so finally, they have an option. They have an option. And so we've got the best people in the world.

with so much experience, so much experience. They like look at your jeans when they're like, oh, they're like, they know what's up. Yeah. So that's what we're doing, origin USA.com. We got everything you need. Jiu-Jitsu geese, jeans, boots, hoodies, hunt gear, t-shirts, got a jean jacket.

Did you see my jean jacket? I did, yes. Respect. What's up now? What's up now? You looked right at home in that jean jacket, pal. Come on. Come on.

No, right you look good. So origin, origin,com, check it out. Yep, it's true. Also, John's a store. called Jocco store discipline equals freedom that's a for real for real thing you want to represent t-shirts hats hoodies that kind of stuff that's where you go jocco store.com also we have the shirt locker on jocco store that's a new shirt new design every month little subscription scenario I got a good one coming

oh you do what's the give us the general this general background so this idea that you said or referred to donuts as sugar-coated lies. So that one was a hard one to kind of like reconcile. Like I'm not gonna, well, you know, we're here, here at Jock store. It's kind of hard to pull off. Okay, I'm gonna make a donut

with a Ghostbusters X through it and you know, like, I don't know. Some real obvious choices you could have made. Yeah, you know, and I don't know. I'm assuming you didn't go obvious. We didn't do that one. You stepped it up. Because I look, I see, bro,

when we go to these musters and stuff like that, bro, I see mass representation and people looking good. Like sure, they're cool, they're clever, they got layers, but the designs actually look good. For real. Like, when you're wearing the thing, so think about this. You know that, okay, when you've seen me wearing the SOG shirt, for example, the SOG support shirt, I was not in SOG, you know that about me. Neither was I.

I wouldn't wear a sock, I wasn't in SOG. You can't. But do I support SOG? You damn right, I do. Yeah. So we have one of the early shirt locker shirts is a SOG support shirt. When you seen it, you were like, that's kind of dope. How could you not?

Now, there's certain designs that look good maybe on paper or look good in your head or seem whatever, but when they put it on a shirt, you put it on your person, as it were. It doesn't match, right? So I don't know if I could see someone like kind of representing a big donut with an X through. I don't know. Maybe, I don't know. I could be wrong, but it just didn't seem like to see my. That was not obvious to me, but I think I got something.

That's the difference, man. That's like the third measure right there. It really is. Anyway. Anyway, that's called the short locker. It's on jocco store.com. So yeah, check that up. If you like you, get it.

Also, primalbeef.com, Colorado craftbeef.com. These are two places that are giving you steak. Well, they're not giving it to you got to pay for it. But you're going to get paid back. It's worth it. In taste. In health.

And in supporting awesome American brands. Colorado craftbeef.com or primalbeef.com. Great people. Great companies. great freaking steak that's what we're doing subscribe to the podcast you guys know that and jocco underground check that out jocco underground.com also we have a YouTube channel check it out um like click and subscribe but we don't really like was that what we're doing but yeah subscribe for sure we might be doing actually with how often does someone hear like click

and subscribe that they go oh i'm going to like this i'm going to click it i'm going to subscribe But how often does that happen? Yeah, if you're not a kid. And you can go next level to like, what is it? Notifications. Turn on notifications. There's a whole bunch of layers. Yeah, for sure.

I think it's like. Pretty soon it's going to be, hey, click here to have Elon put a neural link in your brain so the YouTube things come right into your head. It actually works with like new internet users and kids because like my one, when I went through that stint of allowing my daughter to be on electronics. It's not anymore, thankfully. But nonetheless, she was on there, and there's one of the reasons where she would like, she would like, she would like stuff. Oh.

You know, because it says, hey, it's because it really makes it when I try to look at it objectively. But it kind of makes you feel like, oh, yeah, that's what we're doing, by the way. Like, yeah, like, like click and so or like it's like share. Dude, I'm the hard. I'm the hardest person to like convey to do stuff. Oh, yeah, because you're you. And I get it, man, of course. But I'm saying, you know, new new users.

Yeah. They'll be like, oh, okay, I guess that's what we're sort of doing on here, you know, kind of thing. Anyway, sure. Well, hey, look, we have a YouTube channel. Hey, if you don't want to subscribe to it, don't. Don't have to. Don't like it. Don't subscribe to it.

But at least check it out. Get some info if you need it. Yes. And we will be coming out with the Jocko shorts channel, like a separate channel for shorts. Oh. It won't be only like all the shorts, but like it'll be a separate channel. Wait, now is this a separate, like a separate entire YouTube channel? Or is it just like a playlist inside of YouTube right now it's a playlist

But it'll be a separate channel look at from from what I understand it's like you know that it's a different watching experience or whatever Anyway, it was recommended to me to do that so be on the lookout for that. Look when you all ask us for something And it makes sense and then we get asked it for it a lot well we'll try and hook it up and apparently that's what's going down Yes, that's gonna make a YouTube shorts Yeah channel Jocko podcast shorts or something like that So be on the look on. Check.

Right on. Check that out. Also, Jago Fuel has a YouTube channel. Also, Origin USA has a YouTube channel. And you can find out what's going on in all these worlds. Psychological Warfare. Flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer making cool stuff to hang on your wall.

Books. I written a bunch of books. You all know the deal. A bunch of adult books about leadership. And kids book. Kids books about how to be awesome in life. So if you know kids, get those kids. Kids, These Books, We're the Warrior Kid series.

Also, Miking the Dragons. Check out all my books. Yeah, there you go. I've written a bunch of them, as we pointed out with Zach. That's a Navy SEAL thing to do. Write books, apparently. And Eschelonfront, we have a leadership consultancy. If you need help inside your business through organization, go to extreme ownership.

Or sorry, go to eschelonfront.com. And then if you want to do an online training, go to, Extreme Ownership.com. Learn how to lead in business and life. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, do you want to help their families, Gold Star families?

Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization, really helping out veterans. I've seen it with my own eyes, providing them medical services that they would not get through the VA, through the traditional system.

If you want to support, or you want to donate, or you want to get involved, to go to America's Mighty Warriors.org. Also, Heroes and Horses.org. We got Micah Fink taking veterans up into the wilderness. And then finally, Jimmy Mays organization, beyond thebrotherhood.org.

Check that one out as well. And if you want to connect with us, Zach, he's on the interwebs. He's at veteran with as sign.com. He's also got Facebook and Instagram at Veteran with a Sign. And he's got a podcast that he talked about briefly, which is called the after-action podcast. So if you want to connect with Zach, that's how you do it. And if you want to connect with me and Echo, you can do that too.

I'm at Jocco-Willing. Echo's at Echo Charles. Just be careful because it is a psychotic zone that you're entering. That is literally designed to destroy your time. Destroy it. Give you nothing in return. It gives you nothing back. You're nothing.

You invest time. Look, you invest time trying to play guitar? You're going to get good at guitar. You're able to sit around the campfire and kick out some jams. You invest time into writing. You're going to end up with documentation of the things that you wanted to express in the world. You invest time into just about anything. You invest time in working out.

You're going to get stronger. You invest time in running. You're going to get faster. You invest time in jih Tijitsu. You're going to benefit. fit in so many multitude of ways. But if you invest your time into social media, you know what you're going to get back? Nothing.

Not getting anything back. Nothing. In fact, you're going to be a little bit a little bit deeply nauseated by what you did. And it's going to make you feel bad. And the only thing that's going to make you feel a little bit better is if you do it a little bit more.

It's a vicious circle. It's called the algorithm. We're against it So if you want to talk to us Man write us a letter Send it to my gym That'd be a much better way And thanks of course

To those of our military Personnel out there And I guess tonight Especially to the Marine Corps And a solemn salute To those that gave their lives In the Battle of Marja We will not forget

Your sacrifice And thanks as well to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol secret service, and all other first responders, thank you for your service, keeping us safe here on the home front. And everyone else out there, you might feel like you're alone. You might feel like you're alone sometimes. But you're not.

there are other people who have gone through or are going through the same thing as you or something close or something worse and if you need some help to reach out if you need some help put out a sign someone will answer and also you might not need help but if you see someone else with a sign maybe you're the one with the answer. And until next time, Zekko and Jocko out.