Jocko Podcast - 428: Lift Heavy Things, Move, and Get Enough Protein. With Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Join >Jocko Underground<Well-respected board-certified and fellowship-trained physician, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, is the founder of the Institute for Muscle-Centric Medicine®. Dr. Lyon is a nationally recognized speaker and media contributor specializing in brain and thyroid health, lean body mass support, and longevity.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 428 with Echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. After a lifetime of dieting, my patient, Layla, decided she had had enough. A 46-year-old chef who suffered from rheumatoid arthritis that left her fatigued and in pain, Layla weighed 317 pounds when she started treatment with me. The medication she needed to keep her immune system is in check, kept packing on pounds and draining her energy, she was close to giving up.

My first goal for Layla was to help her move the needle on the scale. To give her the boost of an early win, step one was to get her moving. She began walking on her lunch break and incorporated three additional 10-minute walks throughout the day. Next, we got Layla started with resistance exercises to assist with quality weight loss that decreased fat tissue without sacrificing muscle. Once we got Layla moving, we focused on her nutrition. We anchored her first and last meals with protein and she eliminated all snacking. Within seven months, Layla had lost nearly 60 pounds.

As exciting and rare as that weight loss was, it wasn't even her biggest accomplishment. She was most proud of the health benefits that flowed once her body composition shifted. Her joint pain decreased, allowing her to reduce her arthritis medication, her blood markers such as fasting insulin, blood glucose, triglycerides, which can gauge the risk of coronary artery disease all improved. The most inspiring part of her story, though, was realizing that her body wanted to get stronger. Shocked by her own success, Layla grew less hungry and more encouraged. She could not believe how easy it was for her to feel so much. better and that right there is an excerpt from a book called Forever Strong which is written by dr. Gabrielle Lyon who studied nutrition and exercise and has helped

scores of people change their health and she wrote recently wrote this book which has got all kinds of information in it much of which much of this information is contrary to what others recommend. And she's here tonight to share some of that information with us, Gabrielle. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, this is, when I said when I was, when I was thinking about this and I was talking about the fact that much of the information in this book is contrary to what others have said, that being said, there has been a groundswell over the last decade that leans certainly more in the direction of what you talk about

and advise compared to what it was in the 80s and 90s. Would you agree with that? I would. It's slow, though. Yeah. Oh, it's definitely been slow. It's slow. I would say that your focus being very much so, I would say leaning a little bit more into protein and muscle.

Like, I mean, that's kind of where. I would say you're even a little bit more pro protein and pro muscle, which I am also pro protein and pro. Echo Charles. Yes, sir. Pro protein. Confirm. Pro muscle. Yes, sir.

100%. 100%. So I guess, I guess before we jump into this, or as we get into this, as we get into how you landed there, I kind of wanted to go to the book and just get a little bit of background on you. And you say this in the book. When I was younger, I obsessed about food and my body weight. I felt hungry all the time and couldn't seem to curb my appetite. I cycled through an array of fad diets, everything from season determined,

season determined macrobiotic to all organic, sprouted, and vegetarian. Is sprouted still a thing? Even the sprouts? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, then again. Echo, do you eat that? Well, no, not on a regular basis.

No. Sprouts is you're literally planting stuff in your kitchen, right? And growing them on your shelf? Yes. Yes. So my father-in-law is down for the sprouts. Okay. Very cumbersome.

I mean, again, it's growing something. Oh, yeah. It's a little micro farm in the house cracking. Oh, yeah. Back to the book. Back then, before I knew better, my meals were heavily skewed toward an unbalanced diet of carbs, often considered healthy with whole grains like brown rice, barley, millet, oaks, oats, and corn. I ate locally grown vegetables, beans and bean products like tofu, misu.

Am I saying that right? And tempe. Oh, I have heard of. Tempe and sea vegetables like seaweed nori and agar am I getting those right you are I'm impressed things I haven't you're secretly eating these things no my kids used to eat seaweed the seaweed from like Trader Joe's little plastic crunchy crunchy seaweed or noori yeah is the seaweed is seaweed is seaweed good for you it is my kids eat seaweed like crazy I was chasing after increased energy health and athletic performance but all my careful planning was rooted in misinformation I

spend hours of each day on food acquisition obsessing over every tiny detail to get it right, in quotes. I avoided parties and brought my own snacks. I avoided parties or brought my own snacks. I exercised easily 14 hours a week. My focus on food and exercise was unhealthy largely because I thought meeting a baseline of wellness required a diet and training program demanding that much effort. While my intentions were good, this behavior grounded in my flawed understanding of

health devastated my body and mind. After two years, I found myself exhausted and malnourished. Simply put, I had been unintentionally starving myself of the nutrients I needed. Finally, my body's response to growing deficiencies was to start binge eating. Over time, I developed an incredibly disordered relationship with food that stemmed from my ability to regulate hunger. All right. How old were you when all this was going down? 18. Like, so 16 to 18, was this teenage years? First two years of college.

First two years of college. So when you were in high school, were you sort of into the food thing as hardcore? Not at all. When you were in high school, what were you doing? Were you playing sports? Were you, what was going on? Dance. Remember the dance team?

No. So the drill team. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah. One of my daughters was a ballerina. And so that's a different level of dance. And if you told me that you were very focused on food because of ballet, I'd be like, oh, yes, you were.

because that is a highly, highly disciplined activity. And it's a little bit, in my opinion, psychotic, right? Did you ever, were you ever around ballerinas? I was not. I mean, yes, I have been around ballerinas. We've had a handful of ballerinas. Very, very disciplined, very hard. And they're also very concerned about weight.

So they're very concerned about weight. So that's a little bit crazy. My daughter that did ballet had more injuries that my other daughter than my other daughter that did gymnastics and wrestling. So that kind of that kind of tells you something. So you, but you were doing the dance, the coordinated dance thing. Is that what it was? Half time events and football, you know, the pretty athletic dances, those, not cheerleading, but we would call a drill team. Are you flipping? Yeah. Are you getting thrown around? No. No. I mean, yes, you could be. And was that your main athletic pursuit? Actually, prior to that, I did track and also

gymnastics. Okay. How long did you do gymnastics for? A couple years. Okay. Did you train more than two hours a day of gymnastics? Mm-mm. There's a certain point with gymnastics where the kids go from training like one hour a day

to like five hours a day. Right. And I'm talking 10 or 11-year-old kids. Like it gets crazy pretty quick. So that can happen with anything. But you got out of it before that went. I did. I got out of that.

I was interested in soccer too. I tried all these different things. And ultimately, I landed on dance. And when you were doing dancing, was that when you started like looking at yourself in the mirror and thinking about how you looked? No. In fact, I didn't even think about it.

And the food relationship to food had nothing to do with how I looked. You mean in your mind you didn't make that connection? No. What were you eating? Were you lean? Were you just lean because you were young and you were just dancing all the time?

Yes, naturally athletic, never thought about body weight. And I graduated high school early and I moved to Hawaii. I moved in with my godmother who it was a PhD nutritional sciences. And I became very fascinated with nutrition. Wait, so what age was this? I graduated high school. I think I just turned, graduated in three and a half years. So I just turned 17 maybe.

Okay. So you turned 17. You moved to Hawaii. Are you still, what are you doing for activities now? Like for active lifestyle? Yes. I was lifting. I was training.

I was probably training. about two hours a day. What were you training for? Nothing. I just loved it. You were lifting weights? You were doing squats? I was.

You were doing dead lifts? Well, I don't know if I was doing dead lifts, but I was doing squats and machines at that time. And the goal for you doing this was what? In your mind? It was fun. You just liked working out. Yeah.

But were you trying to like add more to your squat? No. You see what I'm saying? I'm trying to figure out. I wasn't. I was just very in. I had no set goal. I wasn't thinking, you know, I'm squat 200 pounds.

I need to squat 210. I wasn't thinking about any of that. Were you looking at the mirror thinking, oh, my arms look stronger right now? That looks cool? No. I don't, we don't really think like that. No. Were you looking at your abs then?

Or were you looking at some part of your body? I was naturally, athletically pretty fit. And to this day, it's just there is a component to genetics where you, if you have started training early, you maintain the way that your body looks. And for me, I just loved being outside. I loved exercising. I thought it was amazing. And I started to then get into health and wellness and thinking, well, you know, like this is this path forward. And I didn't necessarily do it right. And I was so interested in more of the natural alternative treatments and the natural eating. But there wasn't a lot of guidance at that time. And there wasn't a lot of information in terms of dietary protein. Like,

this is way before protein. This was really, if you wanted to go somewhere healthy, then you were going to go to the health food store. And that's where you were going to get your information. Maybe there's going to be some flyers on the wall. Or you'll pick up a book that was written, I don't know, in the 70s. There was a diet for a new planet. I don't know exactly when that came out. But, you know, you kind of turned backwards to look for current and future information. which is unusual. But no, I really was interested in the health and wellness and what that could do. My godmother at the time, who was a PhD in nutrition, was seeing patients who had cancer,

was seeing all kinds of health and wellness challenges. And that's where it kind of clicked for me, that this was amazing. I was going to do, I was going to do this. This being nutrition. Yeah. Yeah. You said you had, you know, in the book there that I just read, you said you had an unhealthy relationship with food.

What does that mean? Expand on that. So then I got to college. I decided I was going to study nutritional sciences. Oh, so this is when you got to college. Yeah. So how long were you living in Hawaii for? About a year.

And what were you doing at the time for work? I was working for room and board. Room and board. What's that? Oh, you were just. I was living with my godmother, this PhD in nutritional sciences. I was driving her kids around. Okay.

You were like a nanny grocery shopper, mowing the lawn, whatever needs to happen. Not mowing the lawn, but yes. I was doing all the other things other than mowing a lawn and planting seeds. Yes. Not even sprouts? No, no, no sprouts or whatever else you want to include on that list. And the unhealthy relationship with food really happened in college. Okay.

Because I started studying nutritional sciences. And I don't know about you, but I am the kind of person that went, I want to know something, I'm just all in and obsessive. What year is it when you start college? Oh, God, that's a long time. I graduated in, so I graduated medical school in 2006. So I started, gosh, college might have been 1999. Is that sound right?

Okay. So that makes sense. So at that time, I'm thinking about, we know what I knew in 1997, 1997, 1998. 1999. I remember this is in 1998 is when I first realized this is when I started understanding what carbohydrates did and that they might not be the best thing because in the 90s it was like I remember talking to guys that were like oh we're cutting all fat out of our diet yes and they were doing that and you just they would replace those with carbohydrates and I remember team guys that we'd be talking about nutrition because we want to be strong, we're going to be

healthy. And then eventually I saw, I got a copy of the Atkins book, which have you ever, I'm sure you've read them. Of course. So the Atkins books, which was written in the 70s. And that was the first book that, and I got that in 1998. And so that's when I was like, oh, wait a second, all these carbohydrates that we're eating are not going to be that good for you. And the fat that we're eating isn't this thing to be totally scared of, which is absolutely what was being said in the 90s. So, yeah, it makes sense. As you're getting to college in 1999,

you're going to study nutrition and what are you, what are you starting to learn? And you're talking about being obsessed with it. Yeah. So I get to college and I happen to, I don't know if you believe in synchronicities, but I happen to get into the class of, excuse me, a guy named Dr. Donald Lehman. And I think probably just as you experience in leadership, when you are in front of someone

who is truly an expert and truly legendary, you know. And when I had got to, I went to the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, when I got into his class, it was like nothing that I had learned before. This is a world-leading expert in protein metabolism. And it changed the way that he thought about things and the way that he was able to put things together changed my perspective on nutrition. At the time, I was thinking about, you know, what is the food guide pyramid? And it's a high carbohydrate.

It was very low fat diet. I was starving. I was training. I was hungry. I couldn't keep it together. And then I got into his class and he really started to show and prioritize this idea of dietary protein and skeletal muscle. and he did some of the earlier studies, the way in which we think about protein now,

came out of some discoveries from him. He was the guy. He's one of the guys that created this idea and discovered how we dose protein. I mean, that's, I know it sounds as if it's something that we all take for granted. Like, yeah, obviously we know protein makes stronger muscles, but we didn't know that.

Yeah, I agree with you. Like I said, I remember. in the 90s having these conversations. The conversations were about fat, the conversations were about carbs. The conversations really weren't that much about protein. Not that they were gone from the conversation because we did take protein shakes.

I mean, I had my first freaking Joe Wheater's super weight gain 2000 like in the 80s. You know what I'm saying, Echo Charles. So we were trying to get protein to build muscles, but it definitely was, it was kind of the, the background noise over fats, which were bad, and carbs, which were good, was kind of the thing. The protein was sort of this other thing that was the third part of the conversation, the subdued part of the conversation.

And it still is. We haven't even changed the guidelines since like the 80s. The recommendations haven't changed. We've been hyper-focused on carbohydrates and then fats, and they changed. back and forth, you know, which one is worse. And then there's the black sheep of the macronutrient family that is now dietary protein. And what's so fascinating is the way in which the recommendations

are set, which haven't changed since you guys were drinking protein shakes, are based on a minimum amount to prevent deficiencies. And that is still how individuals are thinking about it. And now we have this somewhat of a political influence or an agenda influence about how, cows and animal products are killing the planet, etc., etc. Red meat consumption, by the way, and it doesn't have to be a red meat conversation,

but the consumption of red meat since 1975 is down 40%. And I only mention that because we hear a kind of narrative that further delineates us from being able to take actionable steps to achieve good health. 70% of Americans are either overweight or obese. 70% are you kidding me. Yeah. I mean,

yeah, you see those pictures now. They're circulating. You can go check them on the interwebs, but it'll be a picture of California Beach, 1956, and everyone looks good. And then they'll put next to it, California Beach, 2016, and everybody looks like junk.

And these people didn't know, about working out they didn't they didn't know like what we know about working out we've learned so much about lifting in the past 10 years it's incredible so these people in 1950s they didn't know anything about that they were just doing whatever they were doing and yet they were in pretty good shape when you looked at it on the beach in California and so what was the big change well if red meat's got down 40% that's definitely an indicator is that but again it's a correlation but I think that we've had a rise of these processed foods and it

It doesn't help, and here's why it matters to us, is that when we have these dietary guidelines, these dietary guidelines influence anyone that gets federal funding. They influence the military, they influence nursing homes, they influence schools. So if we have a certain guideline that is set in place, it affects people

to a degree that it's almost like, I don't wanna say it's unfair, But the effect that it will have on children, military, and aging individuals is, it's tremendous. And so we really should get that right. Yeah, I guess you could boil that down to just looking at school lunches, right? If the recommended guidelines are wrong and they're building the school lunch based on the recommended guidelines, which are wrong, the school lunches I had growing up were trash. I guess that's a general thing with school lunches.

But at least if they said, oh, you have to have more protein in there because they don't, I don't remember, you know, the protein would be a slice of ham in stacked between two big pieces of bread with a piece of cake and some potato chips and a carrot, right? That would be your four food groups. Yeah. I'm going to go back to the book real hit you real quick because it kind of talks up through this transition for you. You say, although I prioritized whole foods, I'd completely miss the mark on protein. Just like so many other people I've encountered over the years. I was keeping an intense exercise regimen of one hour cardio plus one hour of weight training daily. Under eating protein left my body starved for extra fuel.

All the carbs I ate kept me hungry and at the mercy of constant blood sugar peaks and crashes. Once I added high quality strategically consumed protein to my diet, my suffering began to ease. Finally, I had regained control of my hunger. Proper nutrition helped my body recover from my workouts and supported. new growth so I could finally see the results of the effort I've been putting in. Muscle started forming and my whole body changed. So did my outlook and eventually my life. Instead of subtracting foods and activity from my life, I started adding.

My struggles with regulating my physiology had left me hungry, not just for food, but for understanding too. As I began following discussions about carbohydrates, fats, and proteins I quickly learned how charged and layered with confusion nutrition can be. Nearly every person I met seemed to have their own beliefs about food science. some personal struggle with nutrition and overall fraught long-term relationship with eating that had outlasted any romantic relationship they'd ever been in. Seeking answers in academia, I noticed that many of my classmates had come to study nutrition

out of their own frustrations with food and diet. How had nutrition become such a touchy subject? Why did people eat the foods they ate? Why did some struggle with weight and food obsession for a lifetime with so little progress? These initial questions led me to a life spent treating people. people. I'm here to share the lessons I've learned. So do you remember the transition when you started adding protein into your diet? Like how did you go about it? Um, this is going to be ridiculous to hear. And also as I'm listening to you read this, you're probably thinking, gosh,

two hours a day. That's, that's a day off for me for you guys. Um, so I have to acknowledge that. Two hours a day, if you're doing two hours of hard cardio and two hours of hard lifting, that's that's a lot. That's a lot of workout. I always tell people, if you do something really hard for 10 minutes, I mean, I've got workouts 10 minutes long. That'll make me need a day and a half to recover. So, yeah, that's a lot of work.

That's a lot of work for a human being. And especially people that are listening to this, that normal people with 9 to 5 jobs and kids and families, that's a lot of volume. That's a lot of volume. So I do remember when I started adding it protein back in, first of all, I was largely vegetarian. I was almost vegan. I ate very little protein. And I, the first thing that I started to add in was chicken. And I actually felt really guilty. And think about it. I think that there's also a lot of young women to this day. Guilty about like I'm putting bad food in my body,

guilting about killing a chicken. Killing a chicken. And it's interesting because back then, I still think that there are these processes. How many girls do you have? Three girls, one, Three girls. I think that all girl, again, I can just speak to my experience and my friend's experiences and seeing a lot of younger girls in my clinic is that they all seem to go through this dietary transition. And they, you know, at some point potentially feel very bad about eating animals. And I don't know if your girls experienced that, but I definitely remember when I was making the decision, my teeth. felt loose my hair was keep up with it for at least two years at least two years I was I was largely vegetarian if very close to vegan for two years my hair started falling out milk no eggs no I maybe had a little bit of like maybe had a little bit of fish and I was training my I felt like my teeth were loose I felt my hair was falling out I I just felt terrible yeah and And I felt very guilty when I added in that chicken, but I couldn't believe how much better I felt.

I read a book one time. It's called The Vegetarian Myth. It's by a woman named Lear Keith. And I don't know how I'm going to remember. I always get books. This was a long time ago, too. But she was in terrible health. She was a vegan.

And she was just falling apart. Kind of like what you're saying, hair falling out, depressed, sad. just her body composition was terrible and she went to a bunch of doctors and they'd say, well, what are you eating? She's like, it can't be my diet. I'm a vegan. Like I eat perfectly clean. And finally one doctor said, that's your problem.

And she was in a state of disbelief. But then she got to a point where she didn't have any choice because she was going to die. And I forget what. I think the first thing that she ate was like a tuna or fish or something. And she described it as she like put it. to her mouth, she felt like this gratification and like her soul was being replenished. And it was kind of like what you're saying. It's same similar thing where she's falling apart, hair falling out like just feels terrible.

And then turn around she, she knew. She like she writes that when she ate that, she knew that that's what she'd been missing. You know, it's so fascinating. You know, I've studied nutrition now for 20 years. it's the one thing that we all do. We all have to eat. Yet the variations that we have, it's one of the only things that I can think of that we have an incredibly varied approach to. There's no way that you eat the same as Echo and myself. You take every single person in your gym. I guarantee you, there's not one person throughout the day that is eating the exact same amount of iron or zinc.

Etc. Yet it's the most important thing that we do. And we have no standard way of doing it. And everybody's a little bit different, right? Yes. So you might need more protein. I might need less protein. You might need more fat.

I mean, and depending on what I'm doing, there might be a, if I'm going hunting in the mountains, I might need more fat. If I'm going to compete in Jiu-Jitsu, I might need less fat. So there's all these other elements that come into play as a human. Correct. That you've got to kind of know your to read your own gauges a little bit. Yes. And what's so fast.

I mean, and there's ways to test for it now. I mean, it's not solely about body composition. We've certainly gotten more advanced and where we can test for vitamins and mineral deficiencies, etc. But it is fascinating that the nutrition space is so confusing.

It seems as if nobody agrees on any kind of foundational principles. And if the ultimate outcome is being able to get after it, your entire life, we have to put things in place so that people at least have a chance. I was trying to do everything right. I was literally studying nutritional sciences. And even at the academic level, which I continued on, ended up doing a fellowship in this, people still were disagreeing. On the one thing that we all do aside from breathe. And people will continue to disagree.

Um, well, there was a while and look, my wife and I were, we get along great. And there was a little while where she told me, she never says stuff like this to me. She told me, hey, you're not allowed to talk about nutrition with my friends. And a couple of her friends were nutrition science. You know, they'd gone to school for nutrition science. And so they had probably gone in the 80s, right? you know, this is my age group. They've probably gone in the 80s, early 90s.

That's when they graduated. So when I'm in there telling them, you don't need any carbohydrates at all. And they're like, are you kidding me? And my wife finally just said, hey, don't talk about nutrition with my friends anymore. And I was like, okay, cool, whatever. But the interesting thing is they all kind of came around.

They all eventually as the, I guess, as science caught up to the world, and especially as it caught up, to academia, it seems like they made progress. It's very slow. How long was it when you got in this class with Dr. Lehman? You get in this class with Dr. Lehman, he starts talking about protein. How long did it take for you to go, I need to up my protein, I need to start eating meat?

How long did that take? Pretty quickly. Pretty quickly. I can, you know, he's still my mentor today. That book is dedicated to him. It's pretty unusual to have a mentor relationship 20 years of 20. some years pretty quickly. So you go through that and now you're starting to feel good.

Then you decide, hey, I'm just going to go all the way. I'm nutrition. I'm good with nutrition. Now I'm going to go going to continue on this path. No. There was a, I was sitting in a class of a nutritional science class with, there's two tracks. It was dietetics and medicine. That's pretty much how you do it.

And there was a tornado warning. And we all had to go to this tornado. You know, the cornfields of Illinois lend itself to tornadoes. And I was sitting in the fallout chapter. I swear it felt like for hours. And I was sitting there with a bunch of people from the nutrition class, and I just felt useless. I felt like a useless piece of shit.

Why? Because in a moment of emergency, I had no skill set to do anything valuable. Got it. And to be of use is a value of mine and has been a just a driving force to actually really be of service to people. And I couldn't do anything. And it was at that moment I decided to go to medical school. Okay.

Okay. So you apply to medical schools and you end up going to Arizona College of osteopathic medicine. That's where you end up going to. And how's this? How is that school? What do you learn? Are you focused on nutrition? Like what do you focus on there?

So I go get to medical school. I thought that and I chose osteopathic school. So there's two types of physicians that carry the same license. I'm not sure if you guys are aware. I had to study it yesterday. I had to figure it out two days ago when I was prepping for this podcast. I had to figure out the difference between osteopathic medicine and what is it? Medical doctor.

And it's also important for. For people that are overseas that are listening, osteopathic medicine in America is a lot different than osteopathic medicine in every other country, as a matter of fact. Yes. So in America, if you are an MD medical doctor or an osteopathic doctor, either one of those, you can prescribe medicine.

You can do surgery. It's just that you have this additional sort of coverage, which is on sort of the whole body functioning together as a big unit. That's what it is. Now overseas, an osteo, I don't know if they call it osteopathic doctor, but an osteopathic medicine practitioner in most countries overseas can't do surgery, from what I understand.

They can't prescribe medicine. They're like an advisor. They can definitely help you with nutrition. They might even, correct me for wrong, they do like massage and things like that. I have no idea. Okay. Not sure. But you chose this path because you wanted this sort of holistic.

view of medicine? Yes. And I was very interested in skeletal muscle. You're absolutely correct. In the U.S. and MD DO, they're the same.

The training is the same. In fact, I did an MD fellowship. There's no restrictions on licensing. The opportunity that a DO has is we get additional training for musculoskeletal manual therapy if in fact we want to use it. And we also... In manual therapy, that means massage?

No, no. I'm sorry. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. No, it's not massage. It's actually. for example, if your shoulder hurt, I would look to see, is it coming from your neck? Is it coming from somewhere else?

It's training in the way that the body functions as a unit. Got it. So that's kind of the, and many osteopathic physicians don't practice that. It's just additional learning that they don't practice. Which is weird because doctors also, if you have a problem with your shoulder, they look at your neck. Right? I mean, normal doctors do that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So basically it is additional training. And I would say there's some philosophical view that the body is an entire unit and that it functions as more of a holistic perspective, at least when I was training. I think that there's less delineation now. It seems like there's much less deletion now. That's the articles that I read about it says that this has become closer and closer together, less and less differences between the two in the past. or so yeah I would agree with that so you're going to school you're going to college you didn't like it ah I was like should I quit this this is terrible how long is it is it four years yeah you didn't like it no you don't like studying what I love studying it was all pathology

it was all what is wrong with the body what goes wrong you know and and we spend all of this time looking outward trying to fix these problems as opposed to what is the foundational perspective that we have you know We are more overweight, we're sicker, we have all these problems, and we're still, we're looking for, quote, solutions. But from my perspective, what if the solution is getting your lifestyle right? Instead of continuing to spend $4 trillion a year on X, Y, and Z to further the health of Americans, I think that we have a lot of the answers. So I hated medical school. I thought that it was just,

I don't know anyone who really likes it, but my husband, he kind of liked it. It was cool for him. But yeah, I thought many times I was going to quit. And by the time I finished medical school, I had thought to myself, maybe I won't even go to residency. Maybe I won't even go to additional training.

So at the last minute, I applied to three places, which is unheard of. So my husband who was a seal, was a medic in the teams, he applied, I think he might have applied to 30 programs or something like that, 30 programs. And you go to Rutgers? So he went to medical school at Rutgers and then he graduated top of his class, actually. Oh, of course. Not bad for a team guy.

He's getting after it. He's not going to let anybody beat him in anything. No, it was, you know, it's so funny because we're all like, I don't know if this medical school is going to just crush it, published like 12. papers, graduated with honors, the whole thing. So when he finished, he applied to 30 programs. When I finished, I applied, I think, to three places. I'm like, I'm not doing this. And I don't care if anyone accepts me because this was a terrible choice. I applied to Mayo Clinic, which I actually got accepted. I, and that was for family medicine. And then I applied to

University of Louisville for psychiatry. And I think I applied one more place. I did the interviews and I actually got accepted to all of them. Okay, fine. And then decided to do psychiatry for two years. And I thought that if I had to do something, I'm going to learn what it takes to function and be mentally tough. I really thought that psychiatry was all about how do we progress the way that we think. So what are you doing during your residency as a psychiatry? So psychiatry can use, again, I'm ignorant. Psychologists will talk to you. Psychiatrist will prescribe you drugs.

Yeah. Is that right? It's a combination of both. I actually found my training in psychiatry really valuable. And also very intense. It wasn't what I had anticipated nor what I had expected. At the University of Louisville, they have an emergency psychiatric unit. And it has armed guards.

It is a small box. And they put everybody together, whether you have schizophrenia, bipolar, you name it, but they have all of these people in the same room. I can't say that it's very safe, right? They have bulletproof glass behind the intake area. And it became so clear to me that the brain is an organ system, that it is fully its own organ system, just like the lungs can get pneumonia, the brain can get sick. It was very fascinating. But there was a moment in time where I felt like, you know, this really isn't for me. And I was working in the psychiatric ER, because you have to do that, as part of your rotation.

And they brought a body in. And it was of a 21-year-old kid who had jumped off of this six-story parking garage. He broke every bone, and, you know, he died. and his dad was an orthopedic surgeon at the hospital. And I had to tell him. And it was at that moment that I just thought, you know, this is not what I had thought it was and this isn't where I was really going with this nutrition and et cetera

and all the things. And so that really struck me. How long? So this is a two-year residence. No, it was four. So I left after two years. Oh, okay. So your two years of your dealing with people that have psychiatric outbursts, they're suicidal, they're violent.

What's your day-to-day? Talk me through like a average day. Yeah. Well, you know, it varies depending on what rotation you were on. but a typical rotation would be you would check in, you would go into the lockdown unit, so they have a lockdown unit at the hospital. And you obviously have your patients,

there's a code to get in, it is a very sterile environment, and people are typically highly medicated, and it's not necessarily, and I'm not trying to paint a picture of mental illness for the world. This was just my experience, and this was what the rotation and what my day to day was like. It wasn't always safe. There were multiple times in this tight lockdown unit where the physicians were attacked, where the – it wasn't abnormal for a person to require restraints.

I mean, this was real mental illness. And you round on these patients. You have care teams. There was no nutritional intervention. They were eating the same crap that, you know, it comes from Pop-Tarts, et cetera. And nothing was done. exercising it was it felt almost and I haven't been to prison but it felt almost as if these guys were imprisoned for their own safety and so that's what a day-to-day would be and then if you were on

call so you're going to see a patient tell me about a patient like what's going on with a patient I had one patient that I'll tell you a story another one that really struck me I had one patient who had schizophrenia and he had been actually in prison because he he had burned his house down with his family in it. And and so are when you go to interact with him. Yes. What what is your goal in interacting with him? It is um you know to get a sense of how stable he was on his medications because it's not like they're going to release him to the world. No no he goes he had been in um I don't know if it was prison but he had been in you know a different type of lockdown unit. Again, there's flux, whether they have to come to the hospital

for whatever their challenges are because people also get sick, whether they have an infection, etc. So the typical, that was an example of a patient, you know, when you're reading the history and you have to determine what their blood levels are, are they stable on a certain medication? And what does it come, what do I mean by stable? Are they hearing voices? Are they taking their medications are they cheeking their medications what is the sense of are they alert and oriented to were you in a position with these people was there anybody that you could help meaning was there people that you could progress over you were there for two years did you see anyone progressed to the point we're like okay this person can go back out of the world and yeah or were

you in a such a severe ward that these people aren't ever going to get anywhere um well again we go through rotations and you know part of it is a handful of months on this lockdown unit and then it's in the emergency psychiatric ward so you don't the only continuity of care you have is in your own clinic so you are required also to see patients on a one-on-one basis and those individuals typically are much more stable and in terms of progression yes there was one I had one woman who She was already living in the regular world. Regular world. I don't know if there's a better way.

A non-lackdown unit. But that, yes, so there was some progression. But, you know, at the same point, I would see frequent flyers. And at one point, I had gotten followed. And again, the brain has its own illnesses where this person had created delusions about me and I had been followed and all of these things. So I had to have security escort me every time I would go to the hospital

and escort me back out of the hospital for a period of time. Who comes into an emergency psychiatric ward on a Friday night, on a Saturday night? Like, what are you dealing with in those scenarios? I can share with you how I dealt with it, which was different than the way that the other residents dealt with it.

The individuals that will come in, the typical was if someone had a bipolar episode, maybe they were manic, maybe they were depressive, maybe they were a danger to themselves. Those individuals were brought in on a mental inquest warrant. So they were brought in by the police or someone like that and dropped off in this lockdown unit, processed through in this lockdown unit. Maybe there's a 15 to 20 spots. So that would be an individual, an individual that was going through. And they were out in the city and they were threatening someone or having a standoff with the police and I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill myself. Yes. Yes.

Okay. And that's what's, so that's what you're seeing Friday night, Saturday night, whatever. But that's not all. And then we had individuals that were schizophrenic, that were hallucinating, that, you know, were seeing angels or seeing the devil and potentially very aggressive. and some that weren't. You also had individuals that were hungry, that were homeless and hungry, or individuals that were going through withdrawals,

whether it was alcohol or drug withdrawal. So what I would do is I would go through the glass, the bulletproof glass, and I would take my clipboard, and I would go to everyone and say, why are you here? Are you hungry? Do you need medication?

Or, you know, are you hearing voices? Maybe I didn't say that, but something like that. And it was highly effective because there wasn't a judgment towards them. It was, why are they here and what is the real issue that needs to be addressed? And maybe they were just hungry.

Maybe they didn't have the resources that they needed. And by doing that, I was able to process them through quickly as opposed to the standard way of doing things would be take one person at a time. And... Oh, so you'd kind of triage them? I did.

Okay. I did. It's this is interesting to me because I didn't understand too much about this for my life and I started to realize that well it's what you said like the brain is an organ and you can have problems with it just like you have problems with the way I always describes you can have problems with the car like when I'm talking to someone and they're going through some kind of like psychological issue and they're having a hard time with it I explained to them because a lot of them are military. guys and they don't want to hear like, well, you need help. They want to hear. So the way I break it down to him is, look, man, this is like you're, you have a problem of your car. You don't just not, if you keep driving it, it's going to break.

It's going to blow up. You need to get it fixed. You take it to a mechanic. Take it to a brain mechanic. That's what a psychologist. That's what a psychiatrist is. But, and what I'm kind of putting together now is like, you're dealing with the people that were on the extreme end of this, but there's so many, well, correct me,

if I'm wrong, but what it seems like to me is there's a whole bunch of degrees. of mental illness, right? You can be bipolar, schizophrenic, like I'm hearing voices, but there's also just like a normal person that's like going through issues that they can get help too. They need to, they might not be so obvious, but they might feel depressed. They might feel anxious or whatever these things are. And they can still get help.

It's actually easier to help that person because it's not a severe of a problem. Is that a good assessment? Yes. Okay. Yes. And, you know, I at some point pretty quickly realized this wasn't the training. It was so valuable because ultimately I interface with people. I treat people.

And if you cannot get their brain on track, there's nothing you can do. I could provide the most amazing program. But if they don't have discipline and worthiness and are able to understand the narratives that go on in their head, there's nothing I can do. It was incredibly valuable, but psychiatry was definitely not for me. So for two years you do this. Yes. And then you decide I'm out. I don't want.

This is not what I want to do all the time for the rest of my life. Yeah, exactly. What's the process? What do you present? Go to the director of the program. No, you just say not going. I found it very unsupportive. The place, it just, you know, my experience was that, yeah,

I just left. And I said, hey, yeah, this isn't, this isn't the thing for me. We used to go to a, your husband might have been there too. We used to go to an old psychiatric facility to train. Did he ever tell you about that? We would do training. It's an old, you know, in order for us to do urban combat and close quarters combat, you want to go to places where you haven't been before.

And there was an old psychiatric facility. And we would go there in a bunch of buildings. and it was the creepiest place to go in at night and walk around it. And it was still relics of what had gone on there. And there's a whole world to explore when it comes to institutions and mental institutions. There was a ton of abuse that was going on in those things.

And that's, if you've ever read the book, One Fool Over the Cuckoo's Nest or seen the movie, One Fool Over the Cuckoo's Nest, fantastic. But that movie sort of was the client of hey, we're abusing these people and giving them lobotomies and they don't belong in there. And unfortunately, we've gone to this extreme where there's no real mental health facilities anymore. There's not enough mental health. I forget the numbers.

There used to be thousands of beds for every 100,000, you know, civilians or citizens. And now it's like 182 beds or something. It's not adequate at all. That's why we have such a problem with homelessness. That's why you have such a problem with drug abuse. It's like those people used to get taken and put into a facility. Unfortunately, the facilities oftentimes were corrupt. So we threw the baby out with the bathwater.

So you're doing this and you say, you know what? I'm not doing this. That's exactly what happened. And then it was off to Washington University. Did you go right into that next program? How'd that work? So I took a breather. And then I went to a program in New York, which was North Shore, L.I.J.

And I did that for North Shore. What? North Shore, L-I-J. And that was my next program, and that was family medicine. And I completed that. That was a really great experience. That took three years. So that was your residency.

That was my residency. You get done with that residency. And that was normal. You're helping people. Family medicine. You're seeing kids. Yeah. You're helping them get better.

You know, that's the one thing. Whenever I think about doctors and what they're doing, you're seeing sick people all day. I know you're friends with Johnny Kim when Johnny Kim was trying to become a doctor. And I remember telling him in front of this officer board, I was like, I hate doctors, I hate nurses, I hate hospitals, I don't like to go there. I don't like medicine. I don't like any of it.

If I ever have to go, I would love for you to be taking care of me. That's what I said to Johnny Kim. So one of the cool things or one of the negative things, I was thinking like, you're seeing sick people all the time. I was terrible. And seeing sick kids. Yeah. But I guess in family medicine, you start to get kids that you can help and you can move them forward and you can help them get better.

So that's awesome. And when I said, I hate doctors and nurses. For you, doctors and nurses, it's a matter of speaking, right? I really appreciate what you do every day. I wouldn't want to do it. And I don't like when I have to you. Whenever I go to a doctor, which is seldom, I would tell them, I hope I never have to see you again. And they say, well, I hope the same thing.

So there you go. That's very funny. And I would say, again, you know, you and I were talking and ECHO were talking. I take care of a lot of former team guys and their families. they feel the same way. The wives love me, but the guys are like, oh, okay, well, I got to do this and I'm fine with it. What I loved about family medicine is that, now you've got to remember, I had studied nutrition, and I had studied nutritional sciences and hadn't stopped because I feel and have felt very passionate about it. And when I went to do family medicine,

yes, I saw sick people, you know, you do hospital rounds, and you do, pronounce a lot of people dead. You know, you're in the trenches, but you also have clinic where you're seeing kids that you can help. And you're seeing patients that don't have things critically wrong with them for the most part. I mean, again, it just depends on which part of the rotation that you're on. But I was able to start doing nutritional sciences with them, putting them on programs as a resident, watching them get better, maybe even sneaking in a vitamin D lab. And it was amazing. And I felt useful because they were able to transform their health and they were able to lose weight and they were able to feel worthy and execute of the things that they needed to do.

And then when I graduated, and by the way, I have to say, though, there was a lot I didn't really like about the standard medical care because I saw all the flaws in it. There's a lot of medication being given out. A lot of the people that we were seeing had things that were preventable. People were going into the hospital, and the first thing that we were doing is putting them on bed rest. There's no faster way to destroy the health of skeletal muscle than to put someone on bed rest and then give them jello and Cheerios. And they didn't even have a chance.

From a nutritional perspective, you're not even going to have a chance because it was so backwards. Again, the dietary guidelines affect things and places that get federal funding. I'm not saying that this hospital, I think this is a private hospital, but it's a standard of care that we're providing. And when I was graduating, I'm like, oh, gosh, more school? Because now at this point, I'd already done undergraduate in nutritional sciences and vitamin mineral metabolism, and then two years detour in psychiatry, and then three years in family

medicine and I was like gosh you know I have to be able to learn more so then I did a fellowship at Washington University in geriatrics and nutritional sciences what made you choose I did not want to do geriatrics the deal was in order for me to learn from the best so are you familiar with washoe no washoe is one of the best schools in the country their acceptance rate is like a few percent. But in order for me to go there, I had to get funding. And the way I was going to get funding

was to be a geriatrician. And for those listening, geriatrics is over the age of 65. It is typically people that if they, you know, this was dementia, this was Alzheimer's, this is people in nursing homes. It wasn't what I had envisioned for myself.

But I was willing to do it because I wanted to study with the best. And I did a two-year fellowship in geriatrics and nutritional sciences. And they seem as if it's so different, like this geriatrics and actually obesity medicine with some of the research that I did. And it seems as if they are on two various ends of the spectrum, but they're not. And by the way, there's so many knives on the table, I'm afraid I'm going to like knock one off. And then we're going to have to really call a doctor. Just don't cut yourself, that would suck.

And I was working on this study, and I was looking at body composition and brain function. And we all have that one person that affects us. The one person that changes the trajectory of everything that we thought. And I was looking at body composition, body fat, and brain function. And I imaged the brain of this woman. She was a mom of three kids, in her mid-50s, all we used. struggled with the same 20 or 30 pounds, everything that the food guide pyramid had told her, the white would blah blah, blah, weight watchers. And I imaged her brain and her brain looked like

the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain. And I was like, what are we doing? We're hyper-focused on obesity. We don't have an obesity epidemic. The one thing that all my patients had in common, my sickest patients, was they didn't have any muscle and they didn't have any healthy muscle. and I was like, God, we've been chasing this obesity epidemic for the last 50 years and we're fatter than ever and are we asking the wrong question? And in fact, I believe that we are. And that's where the book premise of this idea of muscle-centric medicine came from. Yeah, I got that in the book just like to,

So just give that section of the book because it's pretty interesting how it all ends up. You say, once today I worked on examined the connections between body weight and brain function and found a correlation between a wider waistline and lower brain volume. The working premise was that obesity causes insulin resistance in the brain, a sort of type three diabetes of cerebral matter. That's a really interesting thing that I hadn't heard of before. Calling Alzheimer's and brain function type three diabetes. I see echoes nodding his head because he's making that connection over there.

that could lead to dementia. Our research showed that people with obesity often had impaired overall cognitive responses such as impulse control, task switching, and other mental challenges. Again, you're just, you're saying obesity. People with obesity had these problems, impulse control, task switching, other mental challenges. I became very invested in the study's participants, especially Betsy. That's what you were just talking about. A mother of three in her early 50s who had always put her family and others first.

Betsy had spent decades struggling to lose the same 15 or 20 pounds she'd been carrying since her first pregnancy But she couldn't but she shouldn't have been advised to focus on the weight she had to lose The real threat lay with what she had failed to build Imaging her brain revealed her future the pictures I saw look like those of someone with Alzheimer's I knew what was in store for her within the next few decades and it crushed me I felt that I along with the mainstream medical community and society and had failed her. To me, she represented dozens of patients I had seen in the same position. Then it hit me. These people had one thing in common.

Low muscle mass or some impairment to their muscle. They all lacked the strength to perform certain basic movements. And they had low physical tone along with blood markers that indicated unhealthy muscle. Their issue wasn't body fat, I realized. It was lack of sufficient healthy muscle tissue. We in medicine and society have long been telling people to lose weight. But by focusing on fat, Betsy like so many had failed to get healthy no matter how hard she tried, I realized that we had gotten the narrative all wrong. And the consequences for countless individual lives would be devastating. Desperate to repair what I felt was the medical community's biggest failure, muscle-centric medicine became my mission.

there something that led you to see that thread that other people hadn't seen? Well, I had always been really interested in my own training. And I just, you know, when you start seeing death everywhere, you know, which again, as a geriatrician, it's a component of that is end of life. And you're watching who are the people that get admitted to the hospital, Who are the people that are breaking a hip? Who are the people that are never walking again? And then who are the people that are thriving? And yes, it was that muscle was this key organ system

that everybody had brushed over it at the time, and still to this day, when we think about muscle, we think about, you know, like, what does a team guy care about, you know, good hair and a lot of tea and big muscles? And I think a lot of individuals are really believe that skeletal muscle is all about being jacked or being a good athlete. Yes, and that hard physical training does something even more tremendous. The more muscle mass you have, the greater your survivability. The more muscle mass you have, the more healthy muscle mass you have, the greater your metabolic profile, the better your metabolic profile, better potentially your brain function is.

the better your survivability against anything. Yes, strength, mobility, the better your immune system. Skeletal muscle, when you contract it, is this endocrine organ that secretes these myokines, which are just big, fancy words for molecules that travel throughout the body that interface. Again, back to this idea of an osteopathic physician, the body is this holistic unit. And this holistic unit was designed for hard physical labor. And so what happened was the way that I saw it is we had taken out this piece of hard physical labor. And even the, quote, exercisers, they weren't doing enough.

It just the way in which we have become domesticated has really destroyed us. And that is what I just became obsessively thinking about. And that how do we maintain the health of skeletal muscle as we, and how can we change the trajectory of what we believe as health and wellness. So in our minds, and humans are interesting, when they see something like a pattern repeated, whether they hear it or they see it, they believe that to be the appropriate outcome. For example, if you hear enough times that red meat is killing the planet, whether it's true or not, you'll believe it. if you believe that as we age, that there will be a sharp decline in your functioning and that

this is the way in which you have to age, you believe it and perhaps you stop training as hard and you say, oh, well, this is just because I'm getting older, et cetera, et cetera, just because it's been in repetition and no one in the mainstream has really lived in a certain way that has exemplified what it means to age in a way of strength. we don't have you know the people kind of in the public eye i wouldn't say that they are clearly defined as ways in which we would want to age and once we get clarity about how we are planning on aging and what the requirements are and what it's going to take we can simplify everything and protect ourselves and protect our loved ones and so that's those were some of the things

that I had begun to think about. And then I started to think about when you go to the doctor, I know you don't go, maybe Echo goes. But when one, no team guy goes to the doctor ever. But when someone goes to the doctor, they'll say, what's your blood pressure? Let me listen to your heart. Let me listen to your lungs.

No one says, okay, how strong are you? Really, truly. How strong are you? And how much muscle mass do you actually have? That's not even a vital sign. but it should be. What's interesting about this, if you're listening to this right now,

is a very similar correlation to leadership. So leadership is a skill that you can build and you can grow. Some people, they hear me talk about leadership. Well, I'm not a good leader. I won't be a good leader. No, you can actually become a better leader when you learn to be more articulate, when you understand the principles of leadership,

when you interact with people, when you pay attention, when you learn to detach, there's things that you can do make your better leader. Now there are people, that have more natural leadership capability than other people. Those people are out there. They're really charismatic. They're really articulate.

Those people exist. And that's great. They get to just step up and lead and they do a good job. But everybody else has to work for it. And you know what? It's the same thing with muscle. Most people, like sure, there's some people that are just genetically gifted with a whole bunch of muscle mass.

Good for them. That's awesome. Most people, you have to work. You have to do work. And if you don't do work, you won't get strong. You won't get stronger. you definitely won't maintain strength. So, I mean, I work out all, every day.

ECHO works out every day and probably takes every third day off. Fourth day. Fourth day. So, but this is a pattern that you've been doing for your, you're now 40, how old are you? 46. 46 years old. Yep. You started lifting when you were 10?

15, 16. 15, but you were doing push-ups at 10? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Push-ups just to get a little bit bigger than he's got it to my brother. You want to do a little more jack? Yes. But that's a long time. That's 30 years of lifting, roughly speaking.

Me, I'm the same way. You know, I started working out probably when I was 15 or 16, you know, just with the sports, but you're doing a little bit like, oh, I think I can get biceps or whatever. Because that's what you're thinking in 1983. You're like, oh. Oh, hell. You see Rocky or whatever doing chin up. So you're going to do some of that.

But then, you know, spending my adult life in the teams where you're working out all the time. And then not stopping working out. We were talking about this before we hit. record today like I trained jihitsu I still train jiu jitsu I still get on the mat with the with the young beasts and train with them hard and I believe that the reason I'm able to do that is because I never stop lifting and I never stop lifting I don't take oh three a month off or three months off or three weeks off because I was busier this or that because I think that's a huge opportunity for you to get injured.

You take three weeks off or a month off, and then you're like, I'm going to go back in there and you try and lift something that you haven't lifted in a while. That's when you get hurt. And actually the figures that you put in the book, and you're going to have to remind me

or maybe you don't remember them off the top of your head, but the amount of what your percentage of muscle loss goes down when you're not lifting. It's extraordinary, isn't it? It's horrible. It's horrible. And I didn't know that. Now that I know that I'm even going to work out even more.

I'm going to go every day. I'm going to go nine times a day. That's what we're doing. But so people that are listening right now, and actually, I forgot to tell you this before we hit record, this book of yours, my mom is 80 something, and it was part of her book club. That's cool. And so she read it. But for people that might be 75, 48, 52, 28, 28, it doesn't matter where you are, you've got to put in the effort to maintain your muscle. in your body.

You gotta do it. It's gonna help you with every aspect of your life. And I've always known that. Actually, we've said that on this podcast. I put a discipline, freedom field manual. I've been saying that for, I just didn't, I just didn't really explain it very well. And I certainly didn't have the, we had bro science to back it up.

Yes, sir. We backed it up with bro science hard. Yes, right? Living proof right here, a bro science. Oh, I'm still rolling. Yeah. But the science that you have and the experience that you have in that area makes it very obvious

that if you're out there, you're listening to this right now, you should be lifting weights and trying to be strong. That's what you should be doing. That should be a priority in your life. It might even be the number one priority in your life. It is.

It is even more impactful. I hate to say this. I hate to say this. It is more impactful than what you eat. I mean, you obviously cannot out-train a bad diet. That's not gonna happen, but you know, this, we have this era of what are the hacks? the only hack is hard work.

Yeah. And by building and maintaining skeletal muscle, it is your body armor. That's funny talking about body armor sitting across from you, but you get what I'm saying. Yeah. It's 100% true. I think that, look, I've gotten injured, you know, I got injured in teams a little bit, got injured in Jiu-Jitsu a little bit. But from the amount of stuff that I did in the teams and on the mats, not to mention surfing, not to mention skiing, not to mention running around the mountain hunting, all those things to not get injured very often, which again, knock on wood, I'm very lucky. But you get thrown around,

torqued around, things go where they're not supposed to go. And if you lift weights, you're going to be that much better off in every aspect of your life. Yeah. And it has to be a non-negotiable. And this book really puts the science behind it in a different aspect. than training or performance, but a medical aspect. When you are out there training and you're contracting skeletal muscle, I had mentioned that it releases these myokines. These myokines interface with the immune system. So you talked about Layla, the woman in the beginning who had rheumatoid arthritis.

One of the treatments was exercise because when she was contracting her skeletal muscle, these myokines that are released counterbalance the inflammatory process that's happening. but that is not prescribed. In fact, exercise can be optional. Eating can't be, right? Everybody has to eat unless, I don't know, I've got some new fad diet that you become an eritarian, but everybody has to eat.

But exercise and physical activity, do you know that 50% of Americans don't exercise? 50% and the weight, this is really bad. 70% will hit both recommendations for resistance training and 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous activity. Wait, 70% do that? Do not. Oh, do not do that.

So 50% don't work out at all. Yeah. And then 70% don't hit the minimum recommended. Yes. What are the minimum recommendations? 150 minutes of moderate to vagus activity. A week? A week plus two days of resistance training.

Okay, yeah. We, for the New Year's, we did this thing, Deft Reset, where it was like, you know, These are the things that you're going to do. And one of the things that I've talked about with basically making yourself a task list, prioritize and execute when you read extreme ownership that we were talking about earlier, this one of the laws of combat, the third law of combat leadership is prioritize and execute.

So when you prioritize and execute your life, one of the things I've been telling people lately to get a little bit more granular that is do the strategic things first, meaning, oh, I've got these four little things that are do today and I've got to get them done so I'm going to do those first. No. Actually do those after you do do you're trying to write a book do that first. You've got a long-term project. You would do that, do that work first and then do the stuff that's due today. It's reverse psychology. It's counterintuitive because most people think, well, I got this due today. I'll do that and then I'll do the long-term project. No, don't do that. Do the big long-term strategic stuff first and what is the most long-term

strategic thing that you can do in your life take care of your health so that's why when I wake up in the morning the first thing I do is workout because you don't notice one workout you don't notice two workouts you don't notice three workouts you don't notice 30 work well you probably notice 30 but you you you don't notice these things and you have to put them first so that you get them done and this is even more evidence we're crossing we're bridging bro science and real science right now we're bridging so we're good You know, it's the health is the great equalizer. It is the great equalizer. You will never be able to outperform your level of health. And people will say, how, you can be mentally tough.

I take care of people that change the world. That is my mission in life is to care for people that change the world. And I believe I do that very well. The common denominator of how capable and how well they will be able to do their job is not based on how mentally tough they are. It is absolutely based on their health. And it's interesting because the hard chargers drive forward regardless, but I would say that that's a rookie move, that nothing will take you out faster than a health diagnosis. Eventually, not sleeping, we'll catch up with you, all of these things. And yet people really fail to

recognize that that is the foundation. Yep. All right. Let's get into this muscle-centric medicine. I haven't said this yet. I usually say this pretty early on. Get the book. We're going to skim like the very wavetops of the book.

But get the book, Forever Strong. Just go get it. You can get the details. But we're going to hit the highlights of it right now. Here's one of the fundamentals that you talk about. And we've just been talking about. I'm going to give a little details from the. book. The life-changing power of skeletal muscle. Skelital muscle, the muscle that moves bones

to control our locomotion not only constructs our physical architecture, but also impacts our physiological infrastructure. A grossly underestimated resource muscle burns fat, drives metabolism, protects against disease, and so much more. Nearly, and here's the bullet points, nearly immediate improvements measurable within two weeks brought about by increasing muscle health include better blood sugar regulation, hunger control, increased mobility. Next bullet point. Longer term benefits include a stronger body and stronger bones, improved blood profile, including lower triglycerides, metabolism protection, increased survivability against nearly

every disease and a better mood. Echo, can you confirm that if you're jacked, you have a better mood? Yes, sir. I can confirm. And muscle-centric medicine harnesses this powerful system to heal disease. build better body composition, boost energy, increase mobility, and combat the conditions associated with aging. So that's what we're doing.

That's everything that we just talked about. And in the book, you've got a lot of details around more specifically what that looks like and how it works. So very important, underestimated thing. Grossly underestimated. Yes. You ever? So I surf, you know, and guys that surf like you're in good shape, if you have a remotely good lifestyle and you surf, there's guys out there that are studs. And they're 45 years old, 50 years old, 55 years old. That's a key component. If you're doing something that is active that takes strength, you're going to be in such better shape than if you're not. And if you're one of those 50%

of people that don't exercise do like 100% stop the podcast right now and go start working out that's what that's what you should do right now it doesn't even have to be complicated right it could be I mean listen you should allocate mental resources to a good training plan but there's absolutely no excuse to not be able to do body weight exercises whether it's squats or pushups and and that all might sound silly but remember the things that we can care about what are the ultimate endpoints we care about not getting dementia right we care about not getting heart disease you care about not getting hypertension um obesity diabetes type 2 diabetes i mean you'll lose your foot you'll lose your eyesight destroy your kidneys

these are not diseases all about obesity so just hear me out obesity is in one part a symptom of unhealthy skeletal muscle. The greatest prevention and protection against something like Alzheimer's is the health and wellness of your skeletal muscle. So there's no such thing as a healthy sedentary person. People will talk about, oh, if you look in the literature, oh, this healthy sedentary individual, that does not exist. Skeletal muscle was designed to move over time. If it doesn't, you've had like a fatty waggo steak with like marbling in it. Yes, I certainly. I mean, skeletal muscle will look like that. If you are not training and creating this flux and this movement of substrates,

whether it's glycogen utilization of the fatty acids in the skeletal muscle, skeletal muscle is almost like a pond. And when that pond becomes stagnant, fat builds up and it destroys this tissue. But that's not the worst part. The worst part is it's your metabolic sin. And if you can appreciate that Alzheimer's is type three diabetes of the brain, again, they're genetic. Is that from current literature right now? Are people saying that that Alzheimer's is type three diabetes of the brain?

It's in part. I graduated my fellowship in 2015. Did I graduate in 2015? Yes, I did. And at that time, there was a lot more discussion about the metabolic implications. and now it certainly has an uptick in people's understanding. You know, these diseases of aging, people believe they just happen to us. Alzheimer's and cardiovascular disease, these challenges begin in your 30s.

These are not, and even sarcopenia, which is the loss of muscle mass and function, which many of us have witnessed our parents or grandparents getting skinnier and scrawnier. while there are certain changes that happen in skeletal muscle, when these changes happen, these are when we see the uptick in metabolic dysregulation. If we can maintain the health of skeletal muscle, then it allows us to maintain a healthy metabolism. What do I mean by that, quite simply? Again, you had mentioned it, blood sugar regulation, blood glucose, insulin, triglycerides. These are all dependent on the health of skeletal muscle.

when that skeletal muscle declines, you will see fatty infiltration. You will also see a rise in blood glucose, potentially arise in insulin, triglycerides, etc. This becomes very destructive to the brain, to heart health, to arterial health. And again, we're always looking outward for the, quote, solution. I would argue that it's about pulling back to look at the, foundation and we have to have other physicians and other individuals begin to speak about this as opposed to chasing fat and prescribing more ozempic and Mungerna which are all great drugs but there has to be some accountability.

How does this is that work? It's a glp1 agonist and so basically what that does that mean is it stimulates it does a number of things but it decreases hunger tremendously it it makes your body feel as if it's full. It changes gut motility so food stays in your system longer. There's a potential that it browns white fat. I do think that it is a very good drug and we use it in my practice. There's a lot of discussion about how it destroys skeletal muscle mass. We don't see that because our patients, they're training. They are training, they're eating dietary protein. But what's so interesting and I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but I think the pushback against

ozempic is if people aren't hungry they're not buying junk food they're not buying the oh so you're saying that I believe yeah yeah so and I'm going to tell you why I hostess I was not is against ozempic I I will tell you why I think this is true because when you look at the marketing budgets whoever has the money has the microphone and this whole confusion around dietary protein is which let's say beef I'm just going to pick on beef whether it's beef dairy eggs etc they are all commodities they're whole foods they are under the jurisdiction of the USDA which means if I say to you let's just play game beef you say what's for dinner if I say milk what do you say cool does a body go does a body go Oh, okay.

I'm going to echo. I'm going to switch my, okay. If I say pork, what do you say? The other white meat? See, nailed it. We could put you on Jeopardy. Notice that they're one-liners. They're one-liners, and they don't say anything disparaging against.

Milk doesn't say, wow, this is the worst. This is so much better than almond juice. So the commodities are all put together with small farms, for the most part. They're, you don't know, you just hear milk. Does the body good. Right. But there's a ton of different milk farmers, et cetera, dairy farmers. But they united to make that.

Exactly. They unite, they pool other resources together. And collectively, a commodity, which is a whole food, has a marketing budget of $750 million. Like, that's it. And they can not say anything disparaging against other foods. Like, you can't say, wow, almond juice sucks. We're a much better choice. Whereas processed foods, once it is processed, it's under a different jurisdiction.

like the FTC or whatever it is, and they can say, wow, almond milk is so much better for the planet. This is a great source of X, Y, and Z. So it can make these claims that can also potentially be totally erroneous. But one company, let's say PepsiCo, has a marketing budget of, I don't know,

over $2 billion. So these narratives that come out, one must understand who is controlling the markets that we're seeing and who is controlling the information, the meatless Mondays, etc. Is that a thing too? Yes, that's a thing. That is a thing. It's not a thing for me. And that's why I appreciate it. And the reason I bring this up is because we are, I wrote this book to provide a good evidence-based foundation for understanding and also So an understanding of the mouse with the microphone, of all these, you know, maybe this one or two major companies that will influence our health and influence the choices that we're making. So speaking of protein, I'm going to fast forward into the book again.

I want to hit the highlights of this. Protein more than just a macronutrient. Roughly 60% of your body is water. Half of the remaining 40% is protein. Your bones, ligaments, tendons, liver, brain. skin and fingernails are all built from proteins, but this vital macronutrient is responsible for far more than just physical structures. Proteins are the master regulators of all that is happening in your body controlling function

in all tissues and organs, including muscle. They include enzymes, a class of proteins that catalyze all chemical reactions within the body. Proteins also support energy production and cell-to-cell communication. Proteins facilitate critical cellular functions, including balancing hormones and serve as vital immune system mediators. Antibodies that inactivate pathogens as part of your immune response are a type of protein, as are many hormones, including insulin. The thyroid hormones, which help regulate your blood glucose and metabolic rate can impact and can impact growth hormone, secretion, and bone health are made from amino acids provided by proteins. The brain uses protein-rich

foods to produce neurotransmitters such as endifrin, norepinephine, Epinephrine, norophenephyrenephrin, dopamine and serotonin, which are essential to brain-cell communication. These chemicals are directly linked to neurological development, sleep, and mood regulation. Benefits of protein-forward diet, balanced blood sugar, increased energy, mental clarity, decreased body fat, improved body composition, reduce cravings. By now I hope you're clear on the vital role that protein plays beyond just building new muscle. There's no getting around its role in all the body systems. These functions make protein critical for longevity, metabolic function, and quality of life. And here's why you shouldn't ignore protein.

It is essential for cellular functions, influences metabolism, needed to build structures, need to build physical structures, impact sleep and mood, needed for brain, bone, ligaments, tendon, skin, and fingernails. So these are the things that protein are doing. and it's weird that it does all this. And like I said, for back in the day, it wasn't really part of the conversation other than we're drinking some protein shakes when we're lifting heavy to get a little bit stronger. But other than that,

conversation used to be about fat proteins, or sorry, fat carbohydrates. Don't know fats bad, no carbohydrates bad, but your emphasis is protein forward. Yeah, that's right. And it's interesting. There is this something called the protein leverage hypothesis.

Have you heard of that? I would have been very, very... Did you say protein lever? Protein leverage hypothesis. And this is the idea that one reason obesity is the way that it is, is that a human will feed until they get enough protein. So if you are eating highly processed foods that are lower in protein, you will continue to eat to meet this protein need. Because, again, we eat protein, but we really need those amino acids. There's 20 different amino acids.

Nobody, I don't think on the podcast wants to hear about all 20, but so I'll save everybody. They're in the book. So I'll save everybody that painful discussion. But at the end of the day, these amino acids all do different things. And so we're eating for individual amino acids. And that is something that we have to appreciate. And that is where kind of this idea of being protein forward comes in is that a human will feed to get those amino acids.

And keep feeding. And keep eating. There's a certain, and we see it across animals that they'll go for, you know, closer to 20% protein. Again, humans, we can go higher, certainly. And I typically don't think about it as a percentage. It's really a number. We shouldn't really think about when we construct a diet.

We shouldn't necessarily think about percentages. Because, again, if someone is eating a thousand calories versus, 2,000 calories, the percentages are going to mean different things. And in the book, you start talking about how much protein you should aim for. Yeah. So what's your calculation? Well, I'm just going to say this. It should be around 1 gram per pound ideal body weight.

So if you are, how much you weigh? 225. Great. 225 grams of protein, or at least 200. Do you know how many grams of protein you ate? No. It would be interesting to see what you naturally are doing. Yeah, it would be interesting to see.

What did you say? 200, let's say you're supposed to get 200? Yeah. I think we should track it and do and see. I eat a lot of protein. Great. Yeah, I eat a lot of protein. I have protein shakes.

I have protein ready to drinks and I eat steak. and I do that a lot and I do that on a daily basis so we're over here eating protein but I'll get back to you I'll love to know I actually just looked this up the other day how much protein is in a 16 ounce rabbi

do you know off the top of your head? Around so if you multiply what's 16 times seven what is that number? Now we're doing math okay so 16 times seven so seven is two seven eight 92 grams of protein Yeah.

So it's probably a little bit lower because of the fat. So the 16 ounces will be a little bit lower. The protein amount. My guess is I'm probably going to be pretty close. I bet you I'm pretty close to 200 a day, which is pretty cool. Which is very interesting. And I will mention that the RDA, again, the recommended dietary allowance is set at 0.37 grams per pound. I'm protein forward.

And I've been protein forward for a long time. Because it supports training. supports recovery. It supports all of the things. And you've tuned out the noise and likely done what you felt the best as. Do you feel like, because you said ideal body weight. Like let's say, okay, I'm 225 as well, but I'm thinking in my mind, I'm like, wait, if I was like 220 or 215, that would be really my ideal weight. Is that kind of how I can, because a lot of people, that discrepancy is bigger, you know. Yeah, you're pretty close and really fit. Again, it is, So you're going to talk trash right now.

You guys are terrible. You see where the mics are off. One gram per pound ideal body weight would work. But there's no. What I do want to point out is there's a lot of myths around dietary protein that if you were to over-consume protein, which we actually don't have a number for that, let's say you told me you were eating 500 grams. I mean, I couldn't say that for some reason that that would be bad.

I wouldn't have evidence to support. that. There's feeding studies that go above, you know, closer to 3.3 grams per KG. And what does that do to somebody? Nothing. In fact, it's improved body composition. So they have lost body fat and they have increased lean mass. There's no data to support that protein is bad for healthy kidneys or bone. Those are the common myths. And for any women listening to the podcast, it's not going to make you bulky. which is all we ever hear about, but it would be very difficult to overeat protein.

And it's also very difficult to gain weight on eating protein. And the average male is eating around 100 grams of protein a day. Oh. That is what the average is eating. Yeah, that's not going to be good. Now, does that number go up if we're working out really hard? I think one gram per pound ideal body weight will cover you. Cover you.

Okay. But you could go higher. Depending on if you eat carbohydrates or not, that is good for muscle glycogen. It's good for recovery. So it's just a matter of how many calories that you can allot to, I was listening to one of your guys talked downstairs. He's like, I'm eating 5,000 calories a day.

He's probably training super hard. Yeah. Maybe getting ready for a fight or something. I think he is. And maybe even like 5,000 calories a day, he might be. Yeah. Like sometimes you have guys trying to maintain their weight through camp. through fight camp and it can be hard because you're doing two days, three days.

Totally. It gets a little crazy. And so for how you would allocate calories is I wouldn't go below one gram per pound ideal body weight because he's also going to have to get calories in, whether it's carbohydrates or fats. He's still going to have to get more calories. You mentioned carbohydrates. We're going to fast forward to carbohydrates.

Now listen, again, there's so much detail in the book about protein, about the impact, about how to eat it. So get the book for that. But you mentioned carbohydrates and you say it's no. wonder that carbs have such a bad rap today in today's culture mouth-watering starches and sugars can make everything from grandma's cookies to your favorite breakfast scones addictive. They trigger cravings and are so, so easy to overconsume. Most Americans get more than 50% of their calories from carbohydrates.

And our collective overeating of starchy, sugary, refined carbs has devastating effects on our metabolism. Resulting in rampant obesity insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. That's what's going on with carbs You're you're not a person in this book that's like a carb hater not at all You got to earn it though yeah You talk about the fact that your body can make the loose glucose that it needs because there's again when I was talking about sometimes back in the day when I would get my Some of my wife's friends would get hostile with me. Yeah And they would be like, your brain needs glucose. And I would say, no, it doesn't.

You can fuel it with ketones. But you do mention that. Your body can make what it needs. Quality carbs. You talk about that as well. So talk to me about carbs. What's your assessment? What do you need?

How do you earn it? What if you don't earn it? You're going to get fat. There's no nice way to say. The average American eats 300 grams a day. and doesn't exercise. We know what's happening there. I will say carbohydrates are not bad.

I am a higher carb person because I like to train and I can burn it. The idea of eating less processed foods makes a lot of sense because processed foods tend to be highly palatable. If I were to give you hostess or ho-hos, whatever you want to call them, it would probably be easy to eat a lot of that. I recommend individuals if they are metabolically healthy, you could do a one-to-one ratio of protein to carbs. If you are healthy and you are training, anything above that has to be earned. Now, if you are metabolically unhealthy, if you are struggling with weight, if you are overweight, if you have abnormal blood markers, you could start at 90 grams of carbohydrates a day. I wouldn't totally do an Atkins tank you out.

That doesn't seem to work well for people again. I've seen thousands of people. It just doesn't work well. Choosing. So is 90 grams sort of like a average of what it takes to function as a human? Yeah, that's where that, smart, smart man, that's where it came from. So if I were to make a, you know, I try to make recommendations that I could back up by science. If I were to say, go zero carbohydrates, again, I'm a physician.

So what is going to work for most people and how can I put them in a, a position to succeed. Once I get their buy-in, then we can begin to execute and I can push them further. Starting at 90 grams, easy. So for individuals who don't have big appetites, if you're doing 30 grams three times a day, I mean, that would be nothing for you guys, but it could be a place to start. So if we already know that 50% of Americans are not working out, they're not utilizing or turning over the swamp pool that is also known as muscle. then anything above that number, you begin to earn. And how do you earn more?

Working out more? You train, yeah. When you're taking in carbohydrates, what are your, what you put in the book as quality carbs? You talk about vegetables, berries, beans, and lentils. Is that our good carbs? High fiber. But for the guys that are listening here that are doing heavy training,

absolutely, they should be having rice or potatoes or anything to refuel. I love choosing carbohydrates that also have fiber. I would say not necessarily around training because we want that faster absorption. The training individuals that are training, and don't cringe, but, you know, like my husband who's training for this marathon.

Oh, I didn't tell you that. He's running the Boston Marathon. Oh, awesome. He ran the New York Marathon. Did you have to call for the New York Marathon? Well, he got off the couch and ran it. It was a terrible idea. Wait, he got off the couch and ran the New York Marathon.

So wait, don't you have to qualify for the New York Marathon? Or did he have some kind of like hookup? No, he always runs it for, I think he ran it for the Glenn Doherty Foundation. Okay, awesome. I was going to say they have like, yeah, because I think it's a marathon that you have to qualify for unless you're doing it for some charity organization, something like that. So he ran the New York Marathon for Glenn Doherty. Anyway, he got off the couch and ran that. It was a terrible idea.

How do you do? I think he did. pretty well. Really? I think it was. Was he a runner growing up? No. He's kind of built like a tree trunk kind of a guy.

So no. So he's not a runner. No. And he just got off the couch and ran the marathon. Remember what his time was? Is it like 4.20 a good time? Like three is a solid time. Yeah.

I don't know. Three is really solid. Yeah. I'd have to. But off the couch? Yeah. You know, and he did this while he was in medical school? Yeah.

Off the couch, 420. We're giving him full credit. I bet it's probably not. 420, he's going to kill me and he's going to be like, I can't believe you said that. I do so much better. He did it in 240? Okay, awesome. It was really funny.

I go, how was that? He's like, I've done harder things. He's like, but that was stupid next time I'll train for it. So he's run the Boston Marathon and he's going to run it again. That's awesome. He's kind of training for this one. But anyway, for him, he cannot seem to get by without doing some kind of glucose pack. It's just he's struggling.

It's also getting up at four and then running before he goes to work. and I hear you know something about that, but the 4 a.m. wake up. So if you are not trying to just simply refuel choosing carbohydrates that have a high fiber ratio, if you were just really focused on body composition, that would be better. And of course, phytonutrients. I remember when I was dating my husband, I went to base. And on post, the food choices there were so bad. It was like dominoes.

Subway. Subway. What else is there? Yeah, then there'd be like the PX shop. Yes. Like the Navy Exchange. The exchange. Which just has a bunch of junk food in you.

And I'm just thinking, how are people surviving on like Ripetts and Baby Ruth? Yeah. Well, yeah. So it's pretty simple. Carbohydrates are very straightforward. We shouldn't demonize it. I will say, though, if you're not training anything above 50 grams of carbs at one dose is not ideal. What happens after more than 50?

You'll, you can drop your blood sugar. And so you'll increase insulin, increase glucose. And then you're tired. So if you are the kind of person that eats and then 90 minutes later, you're tanked out. Then I would consider reducing your carbohydrate load at that time. Yep. That's such a, you should be looking at your diet. This is for when people ask me like, well, you don't sleep very much and all this stuff.

First of all, I sleep enough. But also, like I eat clean. And I know when I don't eat clean, I feel like crap and I feel like I want to go to sleep. Well, why is that? Because you're eating like crap. So when people are like, oh, I just, I don't have enough energy. If I don't get enough sleep, it's like, cool, sleep more, yes. But also, what are you eating?

Because if you're eating junk, you're going to feel like junk. That's the way it works. So there's a carbohydrates. Again, the details are in the books. Get the books. The other macronutrient we got to hit is fat. You got the skinny on fat. Fear of fats is the 800-pound gorilla behind the U.S.

Dietary Guidelines, no matter how science changes. Federal policy makers still seem to act. act as if fats are the root of all evil. Since the early 1970s, healthcare professionals have obsessed over the idea that fats and cholesterol contribute to virtually all health problems, including heart disease, obesity, diabetes, and cancer. While the fat theory might seem logical,

the evidence is based on educated guesses, assumptions, and personal beliefs. After nearly 50 years of research, the case against dietary fat has yet to be proven. In fact, the evidence gets weaker, with each passing days. And then you go on to say that many popular diets recommend restricting dietary fat overall

and avoiding saturated fats, mostly because fats have a higher calorie content, nine calories per gram versus, what is it, four and four. Yeah. But fats also have a higher safety value, meaning they tend to leave you feeling full, unlike carbohydrates, which can make you hungry,

convincing you that there's always room for dessert, even when you're stuffed. Remember, weight management and body fat are determined by the number of calories you eat. That's why it's so important to master balancing your macronutrients for optimal health. So you know they took cholesterol out of the guidelines. There was this, oh, you should only have 300 milligrams of cholesterol a day.

You know, they took that out of the guidelines. I think they took it out 2015. And you still go to the doctor today. And the doctor will say reduce your dietary cholesterol. Oh, you're saying they took it out of the guidelines. because they actually realized that this didn't need to be in there. Correct, that the body makes cholesterol and that dietary cholesterol doesn't necessarily raise your blood level cholesterol.

When you say doesn't necessarily. I think that, and I say it cautiously, the dietary cholesterol does not affect your blood level cholesterol. You make it and you have somewhat of a cholesterol set point. Yeah, you've got like a genetic cholesterol gig. Exactly. So that is why I said it that way. And they took it out of the guidelines. Yet people are still saying, oh, you should watch your cholesterol intake. Why? That is just an example of something that we've heard repeated over and over again to mean truth when it doesn't. Cholesterol is made by the body. And again, like you had mentioned, there is a genetic set point. I will say saturated fat, they just came up with a number. The case against saturated fat is not good. The recommendation is... Wait.

The case against it is not good. It's not strong, meaning that when they say saturated fat is bad, they are not correct. Well, saturated fat could be a problem if you are overeating. If you are overeating, then saturated fat can be a problem. But if you are not overeating and your calories are in check, then saturated in fat is not a problem. There are certain genetic, for certain people, it can be a problem, but you'll know that pretty quickly. And how you know that? You'll see changes in abnormal lipid panels.

But again, it really is a much bigger picture because there's lean mass hyper responders. There are a whole host of people that do well on higher levels of saturated fat. It really depends. So they kind of picked this number of 10%, and then 30% full. out of the air. There wasn't, there's not really great evidence. So basically what they did is they said 45 to 65% of your diet should be carbohydrates. This is what they say.

Again, driven by policy. These are not all scientific decisions. These are decisions. Just guidelines after some committee got together and. That takes funding from processed food companies from, you know, industry. And then they kept dietary protein the same, which is the only. macronutrients whose need changes as you age. So your mom should have a higher protein intake than she had 10 years ago. But they've kept those numbers the same as the minimum to prevent

deficiencies. And then they'll say, okay, well, you know, 30% of your diet can be fat and just kind of make up this number. Exactly. Right? Maybe it's less and maybe 10% will come from saturated fat but it is again they kind of made these numbers up. Got it. Again, you've got, I'm literally reading two paragraphs out of entire sections of the book. So if you want to get the details of this information, get the book. And then on top of that, you have like meal planning in the book, which obviously I'm not going to read meal plans.

I'm not going to read the recipes. But you've got some good examples and quite a few good examples like, hey, here's something thing you can eat. Here's what a breakfast would look like. Here's, and one of the things, and I don't know if I've highlighted this or not in the book, so I'm just going to say it right now, like the cornerstone of your meals is 30 grams of protein. Yeah, that's a minimum. That's like what you're doing. You're going to have breakfast? Cool. You start with 30 grams of protein. You also talk about eating the protein first, which I think is smart. Yeah. Because then you're not hungry. And there's really great data that individuals that have protein first and you image their

brain, they're much less likely to go for the donuts or the cupcakes because of the effect of you're looking at, do you eat donuts and cupcakes? You haven't heard this. This guy over here like two months ago, he had, what was it? What app did you use? DoorDash. He used DoorDash to have a dozen crispy cream donuts delivered to his house and he ate eight of them.

You did? Well, listen, if you're going to do that, at least have your protein first. Because then you would have had seven. Yeah. This is a full breakdown. I just want to know, how did you find that out? He confessed. Look, sometimes I got to talk to him, you know, and we get, we have ways of making him talk.

But, you know, he admitted it. He knew it was wrong. He knew it was wrong. We talked about it. We got through it. We're not going to let it happen again for a while. But let me ask you this. The next day, were you more hungry for carbs?

See, and we talked about that too, where it doesn't really jam me up, which is kind of a catch-22. So he was like, oh, how did you feel afterwards? And I was like, I felt normal. I should have eaten the other. Hold on. He said, I felt normal. I said, what did you do? He goes, well, I laid on the couch and I felt, I said, he said, I kind of fell asleep.

I was like, what do you kind of? He goes, well, I don't really remember what happened. So he went into full, like, brain coma. Yeah. Well, put it this way. It didn't jam me up, like how people say, oh, I don't like mess you up. So you ate back to your normal way of eating the next day? Yes, ma'am, I did.

Yeah, we talked about that too. Okay. Or it's like I and the thing is I do believe that and I'm sure I feel that somewhere. But yeah, when you're like, and you have it planned out, you're like, yeah, I'm going to pound these donuts and then I'm going to go back living my normal life. So you threw away the other four? No, I give him to my nephew or he had. I want to know what was going to happen if he had those other fours. I bet y'all.

It's very possible. Yeah. Oh, the next day you mean? Yeah, like I get into him. Yeah, but do you and this is probably part of the holistic kind of situation where this is what I feel more so than I feel. the craving for those donuts in the back fridge or whatever. I feel like, oh, wait a second. This is one of the rare times they're around.

It's not like this is going to become a habit or nothing because it's not like I'm going to go back and get more donuts. You got that door dash. You're going to start getting ads. That is true. But it's less likely. You know what I'm saying? But then when you're like, oh, yeah, this is kind of an opportune time.

You know, like, you know, it's basically the psychology of having junk food around versus not around. So then it's like, okay, well, they're here. they're not always here, let me pound these and move on, you know, kind of thing. But if they're not there. Yeah, that's absolutely bad. It's never as good as you think it's going to be. And I think people hold out for, you know, I always think what are the things that really

trip people up is they have this idea that it's the last meal or the thing that is going to be so good and they dream about it and they think about it. But it's like this hedonic reward. It's never good. That is true. I would say, well, put it this way in the spirit of accuracy. see, it is rarely as good because every once in a while, like this one time, I mean, not to, you know, but this one time I was like, hey, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to have

this cheat day or it's more of a cheap meal. I'm going to do the whole day. Cheat day, really? Yeah, no. Okay. But the cheap meal, I'm going to say, okay, I'm going to go to Jack in the Box. Back in the day used to get Jack in the Box. The sourdough one, you know.

We called that Jacked in the Box. Jacked. Oh, hell yeah. Now, the last, I get the Jack in the Box. Bro, it comes and it's all fresh and it fulfilled my expectations. But aside from that. Like even the Krispy creams, it didn't really fulfill. You're right.

It rarely is like what you like really wanted. And then we forget. And then we forget as humans, there's this hedonic reward and it's the hedonic treadmill. You think that that next donut and then all of a sudden there's diminishing returns because I guarantee you by donut number six, you're like this was a dumbass idea. This is like, uh, this is like he was just laying on the couch with powdered sugar all over his face. He just curled up in a ball. The thing is I see how that. can be but I do feel like in my specific case it was different just because I know

what I'm doing and I know like tomorrow it's not gonna be like that it's not like that this is not a new thing necessarily like a new pattern that I'm gonna like you know I got a protocol recently implemented protocol I don't I don't implement new protocols very often but I've had a protocol that I've had for a long time which is if I feel like I need a day off I won't take it today I'll take it tomorrow so if I'm like yeah I don't really feel like working out today I think I might be tired and I probably need some rest day and all the the literature says that you need to rest more and you just tell yourself all these things

if I go through that and I say yep I'm definitely need a day off then I say cool you get to take it tomorrow but I still got to do the work today so then I go do the work and guess what the next day you feel fine you get through it that works I actually just implemented this if you want to eat something really good like out outs that's not on the path you can do You got to get it tomorrow. You got to wait till tomorrow. Yeah. And that right there, generally speaking, like I've been in January, I was like, oh, I'm fired

up. up. I'm going to get a pizza at the end of January. I'm going to get a, like a deluxe, just super good pizza. I'm going to go to the pizza restaurant. Yeah. Like we're going to do this whole thing. Yeah.

And right now I still haven't gotten it because I've, I got through, like I say, I'll do it tomorrow. And I just keep saying, I'll do it tomorrow. And then I realized the next day, I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't want to do this. And then two weeks later, I'm like, oh, I want to get that pizza. And then I go, okay, I'll do it tomorrow. Tomorrow, you're cleared hot. But then I get to tomorrow, I'm like, I don't want to do that.

Yeah. Because I want to fall off the path. Yeah, I can see that. So it's a good little protocol. Implementing the same protocol for days off of work, working out, implement the same protocol if you want to freaking just go haywire with the damn eight crispy creams. And have you ever, have you ever gone off the path?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I eat, I'm totally normal. Like, I mean, I'll definitely eat, like, if there's a good pizza out there, I'm chocolate chip cookies. Let's go. We make milk chocolate chip cookies, which I actually do a really good job of filling the gap on that. To me, like, my protein shakes tastes like dessert. So I'm very, what's the word, very gratified and satisfied.

Like, when I get done eating steak and salad, I have some kind of meat and some kind of salad basically every night. and I have Caesar salad or I have some kind of vinaigrette, you know, like, what is it? It's balsamic vinegar and olive oil. Sounds fancy. And olive oil. Very fancy. It ain't that fancy. I put them in a thing and I mix them and I put them on a piece of salad and I eat it.

But when I get done with that, sometimes that the sweet tooth is still there. Protein shake all day. I'll have a chocolate milk protein shake and I've, that's good to go. That's totally satisfying. I have hot chocolate. So I take protein powder, mold protein powder, and I put it in hot milk,

and I make monk fruit, whipped cream. Actually, my wife makes it. She takes monk fruit. It sounds really good. She takes monk fruit and she whips it in whipped cream, and it's delicious. And it tastes like regular whipped cream,

but that, all those things are really, really good. So, yeah, if I'm, but, you know, if I'm like out with my kids and we're at some awesome restaurant and they're like, hey, we have Tiramisu for dessert. Like, Tiramu is not something you can get. That's not, you know, your family,

your wife's not making Tiramu Suu. Yeah, it's not just cruising in the patch. Yeah, it's not like, oh, I'm gonna run, like I can't pull it out of the cabinet. Yeah, yeah. So if there's a situation like that, we call out a situation, right? Am I gonna get into that,

am I gonna get into that Tiramu or whatever? So, yeah, I'm not crazy. I'm not obsessed with food. I don't even, I don't even like some people love food, right? Like I will take no time, like people that like barbecuing and they marinate it all day and all that stuff. I don't do any of that. If it was up to me, I would just, I would eat like chicken from a can and mayonnaise. And that's like I'm, I put nuts in there.

And that's like a great meal to me. It tastes fine. Do I enjoy having awesome steak? 100%. Do I want to cook it and clean it and all that of stuff? Not really. No. So I'm, I'd say, you know, that's kind of me.

I have, you know, I have chocolate, like 80% chocolate, which is pretty low in sugar. You know, I eat that. That's very gratifying to me. I find that if you go below 70% you want more. It's like you can actually tell 70% chocolate, you want more chocolate. 80% or higher, you have like two squares and you're like, okay, I'm. No, thanks. You're good.

Yeah, you're good because it tastes good, but it doesn't taste that good. And it probably lacks the whatever sweetness. The sweetness for the mental dopamine like repeat mode. Like again, again, again. So yeah, I'm not crazy. I'm not obsessed with food. If I feel like chowing down on something that's, you know, that is not great. You know, since I started making milk, I used to eat more ice cream.

I would make mint chocolate chip milkshakes. Like take a scoop of ice cream, put it in a glass and put milk in there and stir it up. Now I just have mint chocolate chip mink, which is delicious. And it tastes to me like dessert. So I've covered a lot of those bases. And you also train a lot, though. I train a lot. Yes.

And that's true. Like if you go surfing and you did jiu-jitsu and you lifted in a day, like bring a pizza on because you need it. You know, you need to have some of that energy, some of that food, some of that fuel. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not crazy. I'm not obsessed with food. But I also am not stupid. And I also recognize I also recognize I always tell people like remember what it feels like when you get done working out It feels good like there's there's very few situations one percent of the time do you get done working out and you feel worse

Very seldom does that happen it's the same thing with food very seldom do you eat eight freaking donuts like echo Charles And and and you don't feel like dude I don't feel as good very seldom does the does the good feeling outlast the last swallow of the of the uh the infraction the infraction so I know that and you know

but I'm not I'm not obsessed with it and I work out a lot that's one thing as this kind of like a lot of this new medicine has come out you mentioned it you were like you were like I hate to say this but working out is more important than diet and as that has become because in like the world of bodybuilding it's actually flipped right right but that's not exactly and it's also not physiologically natural i mean there's only so much muscle somebody could put on from a physiologically natural perspective but yes

it's flipped in the bodybuilding world because you need to because you're trying to get shredded right and the shreds the aesthetic shred is more based on your diet than it is based on you're working out of Of course, do you need to do cardio and lift. And if you do those things correctly, you can eat a little bit worse. But for the most part, if you're going to be a bodybuilder, it's more about diet than it is about lifting. I guess for a true bodybuilder, it's also more about the steroids that you're taking to get that jacked. But so it's like steroids diet and steroids diet and then lifting. Yeah.

And, you know, not to discredit that you, the guys that do. steroids you also have to lift super heavy you can't just do steroids and then expect to be Ronnie Coleman right right Ronnie Coleman freaking lifted heavy as hell and they're very disciplined and oh for sure deeply focus you know you mentioned something about very rarely do you train and then feel worse it's again it goes back to this people will always talk about endorphins okay we know this but when you train skeletal muscle releases these myokines it also affects something called BDNF in the brain, brain-derived neurotropic factor. It helps with

neurogenesis and it helps with memory, cognition, and there are components to training that help with mood. I wrote about this in the book called Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual. I wrote about all those things because it's not just bro science. 99.9% of the time when you get done working out, you feel better than if you didn't work out. So speaking of exercising, like I said, There's the whole, you cover meal plans, you've got recipes in there. Listen, why did I do this? I did that because we have to eliminate excuses.

Why is it that 70% of Americans are either overweight or obese? Like, why? And then why is it that the majority of people don't work out? I had to create something that if you believed that we can be as humans, strong, capable, and resilient and have capacity, I needed to take out any excuse. And that's why I put all that stuff in there. Yeah.

So get that, get the book, get those details. But then we're going to go into the next part, which we were just kind of starting to bump into anyways, which is training, which is exercise. And you say this, exercise is your body's birthright. We humans were designed for physical movement and our bodies are capable of extraordinary feats. Don't think of training as an activity with health benefits. Instead, consider it as a baseline requirement for wellness and an essential component of maintaining. health and protecting longevity. Exercise is traditionally divided into,

and I'm fast forwarding, there's more details. Exercise is traditionally divided into either endurance, cardio, or strength, weights. This is a fine starting point for understanding the different ends of the spectrum, but the interplay of different activity types is more complex and many common beliefs

around effective training haven't kept pace with research advancements. And then you go in to talk about resistance exercise training, endurance training, and then high intensity interval training hit, which surprisingly, it's been around for a long time.

For a long time. But people really have more recently understood the effectiveness of it. Hit is the, and this is going from the book, is internal interval training exercise that calls for short bursts of activity followed by short periods of lower intensity movements.

So this is what we're talking about. You got a lift. You got to do some kind of endurance. And you should probably combine those two together to do some kind of high intensity interval training. Yes. And I'll say that people will talk about this zone two cardio. Zone two cardio is having its moment right now.

The longer endurance. Yes, it's great for VO2 max, et cetera. We've talked about that ad nauseum. But I would say from a practical aspect that you can improve your VO2 max. you can improve your health status by doing high intensity exercise. So the less time you're training, the more you have to get after it. It's not about being like the cardio bunny or, well, I weight lifted for 45 minutes. If you do not have time, you should up the intensity.

Yeah, 100%. That's one of those things that you have levers. And what's cool is, for me personally, there's days where, some high intensity workout like I'm feeling worn down I'm feeling like you know what I'm gonna do something that's a longer endurance there's also times where I'm don't either don't have time or sometimes you don't I don't feel like going for an hour long run guess what I feel like doing jacking some steel doing some deadlars whatever the case may be so having all of these in your in your repertoire is very important and

And then making sure that you don't focus on the one that you like the most, right? Yeah. Because it's real easy to be like, well, you know, I like to be jacked. And Echoes over here on his ninth set of bicep girls. But even Echo has opened up his mind now in the past 10 years where he trains, he does met cons with high intensity, you know, interval training, still lifts heavy. Do you ever do like long slow cardio type thing? Eat nowadays I'm not but only one eats donuts

Because the jiu jih Tzu falls in that category Jiu Jitsu is beautiful. Jiu Jitsu really does help you with It's a little bit of hit but it's also endurance like you go and roll for an hour Which is pretty common to go and train for an hour five minute rounds but during the rounds You're not going 100% for five minutes you can't do that you can go but sometimes you got to go really hard for 32 seconds and then you get in a position you can kind of settle down

you get a little bit of then you go going again so jiu-jitsu is a beautiful thing yeah yeah I do yes like go for runs for like yeah like 30 45 minutes or something like that but no not as not as often and I think that you know Drakha what you said in the beginning is you don't stop

you continue to do it and that's again what is the ultimate outcome that we want is we don't want to get injured so that people can continue to train and then using movements that you would use in real life that are more functional that maybe have rotation, whether it's swinging a kettlebell or, you know, doing a chop or, you know, carrying heavy weight.

Unbalanced weight. Exactly. Unbalanced weight. Doing things that potentially translate because we're not training to get better at exercise. We're training to get better at life and to be more capable at life. What are the actions that we can take that will move us closer to do that, whether it's jujitsu, throwing around kettlebells or unbalanced kettlebell weights or putting something overhead, those kinds of movements we have to continue to do. Because it's not, I hate to say this,

it's not an if, but it's a when. We train for life because there is typically a time something will happen, whether you have the flu for a week or you, I don't know, get injured. Something happens. You have to plan for those times. And I know that that's morbid, but the more you can build up your body and be able to have movements and motions that will translate to real life, that is your best defense. Yeah. And it's real easy. And this is a huge ongoing conversation that I've had with the Bert Soren. You know who Bert Soren is from Soren X. Anyways, he was like a thrower in college. He's a stud. But I was talking to him about. about just movements and how if you, there's movements where, let's say for whatever reason, like I hurt my arm very bad doing Jiu-Jitsu,

I couldn't straighten my arm and I couldn't do overhead squats for nine months. And when I finally went back to do overhead squats, I could straighten my arm all, I'm like, okay, I could barely do one. And so I was like right back with the PVC pipe, meaning no weight. And it would have been real easy,

to be like, well, you know, I'm getting all the, and in, and that's pretty much your ego talking of like, well, you know, I used to be able to do that, but it's, I don't need to do that anymore. I don't have anything to prove. And or your ego saying like, oh, if I can't do it, then I'm just going to pretend that it doesn't exist type thing. Or you say, you know what? I'm not going to submit this movement. I'm not going to give up this movement. I'm going to get it back. And that's what you do. You start with the PVC pipe. Then you go with the bar. Then you put the, the tens on. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And that's what you do. You start with the PVC pipe. Then you go. Then you put the 10s on. And. And. And. And. And. And then the 25s, then the 35s, then the 35s, then you got the 45s, you're kind of back in the game. And you can definitely rebuild what you've lost. So again, if you're in a situation in life where you stop working out for whatever reason, and you used to build a bench three wheels and now you can barely do a freaking push-up, well, guess what? You can get it back. You might not be able to get it all back, whatever.

You know what you should do, try and get it back. and it's the same thing with your squats. It's the same thing with any movement that you could do. You can likely get back to something close to that. And if you can't get close, get as close as you can. And you know what I'm hearing? I'm hearing you say set standards instead of goals. Set standards for how you're going to operate instead of goals.

I like that and I do that. So I have some kind of like workouts that I do. where whether it's pull-ups, whether it's dips, whether it's squats, where like, let's say pull-ups. I'm going to do 300 pull-ups in this workout. And that's just kind of what we're doing. And it may be, oh, I haven't, I've been sick. I've hurt my shoulder and I haven't been able to do as many pull-ups.

But you've got to go, oh, I'm going to do 300 pull-ups. And it's going to take me however long it's going to take me. Maybe it's going to take a half an hour. Maybe it's going to take 40 minutes. Maybe it's going to take me an hour, but I'm going to do them. and then you've got to hold that standard. So yeah, I believe you can have standards or you should have standards

of what you're going to be able to do. And then if you fall below the standard, you've got to work to get it back because I think a lot of people fall below the standard and instead of work to get it back, they just set a new standard a little bit lower. Not ideal. So you've got to be careful of that.

Again, in the book, you got all kinds of, you go through like various workouts that you can do. You've got beginner level workouts, you've got intermediate level workouts. You've got a bunch of really good information that people can use to kind of get their workouts going. And I think for the very fitness savvy people, what this does is it puts science behind the bro science. And that becomes important if we're trying to reach and change the world from this obesity-centric view to more of a muscle-centric view is we have to have science behind the reasons and

behind the protocols. And so again, let's say someone is advanced at training. They're like, I don't need a training program. The information there is meaningful because it will allow an individual to talk about the science of muscle health and why it's so much more. Yeah, and also give them maybe a little bit of direction or a little bit of better understanding. I've been very happily surprised over the past, I guess.

How long will I be doing this podcast for? Eight years, something like this. Wow. So I've been very pleasantly surprised when my personal experiences align with Echoes Bro Science and align with legitimate, you know, whether it's Huberman, whether it's Jordan Peterson, whether it's you or Kirk Parsley or Peter Atia, and the things that I've been doing where I'm like, oh, that's why that was effective. Occasionally it's like, oh, maybe I was a little too focused on it.

But most of the time, it's been, oh, yeah. Okay. Here's a stupid example. Huberman's like, oh, you should, when you go outside in the morning, you shouldn't wear sunglasses because they block UV light. Well, for me, when I run, I sweat. And so I don't like to wear glasses in the morning. So I don't like to wear glasses because it gets sweat on the glasses, so I just don't wear them.

So it's just luck. But now I actually go, oh, that's actually a good thing. So these little things that line up, you have better understanding and you can then focus on them. So it's the same thing that you're saying with this book. You can read through these things and start to understand maybe some of the methodology and the science behind the bro science. And where you're at, right? If you want to order your own blood labs, where the, you know, you have to have metrics so you have an understanding of where you are to ultimately identify where you're going to be. If you continue, let's say you're not training hard enough. Let's say you're

not eating right for your body. It's going to show up. And if you look at it, then you can circumvent a downstream effect early on. And that's the real goal is how do we allow people to live to their full capacity? And it's not just about doing things. It's about doing the right things at the right time for the right outcome. Fast forward a little bit in the book.

You've got a section here about mindset and you've got the five fundamental attributes for mindset here. The first one that you talk about is courage. Why is courage number one? Well, can I just, tell you, so you know, books typically take time to write. And I actually have an even better mindset component that I would love to share. Let's go. Okay. I've, and you and I were talking

about this prior is that a portion of the practice is all operators. And there are certain themes that I have seen. And I'd love to tell you a story. So I had one patient had come to me. He had been in the teams. He'd been in the teams. He's a breacher. I'd been in the teams for 20 years. Never been injured. Was home from a deployment on his motorcycle going five miles an hour.

A 17-year-old girl texting and driving took him out. And he lost his leg. He had come to my clinic and, you know, I was like, hey, man, are you okay? Oh, you know, yeah, I'm tired. You know, normal response. Totally. No big deal, right? This was months after.

maybe this was six or eight months after. And I was like, no, dude, how are you really doing? You know, I'm 5'1, I'm married to a team guy. I take care of a lot of team guys. He's going to tell me. And he looked at me like I asked him, where was the box of tampons? And he was like, oh, he's like, you mean my leg? He's like, doc, that was like six months ago.

Like, what are you talking about? And I was like, oh my gosh, this guy actually was totally neutral about the impact that whatever this thing had happened in here in my mind. I'm telling this whole story about he's never going back to teens. He's never going to be deployed. He's going to have to do X, Y, and Z. And he was very neutral. And I called my husband. I was like, oh, hey, you know, so-and-so was in the clinic. And it was like dead silence. And they were lying. And he was like, honey, yeah, what are you talking about? That was like eight months ago. And it was at that moment.

So yes, I talk about courage and I talk about these attributes, but I would say the most important component, again, it's trends over time of who you see, was that there is a level of neutrality that those individuals that exceeded the highest level have. There isn't a story. They never get too high,

and then they never get too low. It is kind of controlled neutrality. And that has, I have seen that over and over and over, and over again. And that's actually what struck me. Yeah, I mean, I just call it balance. I wrote a book called The Dicotomy of Leadership and like the key component of a good leaders that they're balanced.

I'm like you just said, when I win, I'm not jumping for joy. When I lose, I'm not throwing my fists into the wall. I'm going to be neutral. I'm going to be balanced when good things happen. I'm not going to let them go to my head. When bad things happen, I'm not going to let them tear me apart. When I'm not going to get overly emotional, but I'm not going to be too detached. So it's just being balanced absolutely is a key component.

And also, you know, flying off, you know, I don't know if you've seen this, but I would imagine that if you have someone that's going to focus on their health and so they become totally obsessed and they go very extreme, that's probably not going to last as long than if they go, okay, I'm going to start doing the right things. I'm not going to go crazy. Like even when you're just asking me, like, do I eat chocolate chip cookies? It's like, yeah, I do.

I like chocolate chip cookies. Do I like whatever? these, you know, Ben chocolate chip milkshake or tiramassou. Yeah, it's like I'm not going crazy. So I think there's, does it apply there too with people trying to like change their lives without going to the extreme where it's unsustainable? Does it apply? Yes.

And I would say that the higher a person goes, the lower they go. It's not this baseline. So let me give you an example. I take care of a lot of entrepreneurs. And right before a big event, let's say they put on a huge event in Vegas. and they are so amped up and they are just on a high, I can predict that as high as they go, on the flip side is as low as they're going to go.

And at that peak and at that trough, those are points of high vulnerability. Those are the points where they're going to go off their training program. Those are the points, the points maybe they're going to drink more, maybe they're going to buy another car, maybe they're going to cheat on their while, like whatever. the extremes at that peak in that trough, that is when they are most vulnerable. How does that translate to health?

Nothing will take a high performer out as fast as those highs and lows. And it's actually, people will say, oh, the highs are great. No, because there is this, almost this dopamine drive that it becomes depleted. And you don't go to a, if one of these many knives was a baseline, you don't go to a baseline. you don't go to a baseline, you mirror as high as you're going to go is as low as you go. And if you mitigate that, then you can prevent these predictable downstream effects of human nature. Humans are interesting. They're so shocked by their own human nature.

They cannot believe, you show me a person, you show me their habits, I will tell you how successful they are. because there are just patterns and they are shocked each time by their own humanness I got to see clearly you get to see that in the teams because you get guys going on deployment

the deployment is like one kind of high because you're very gratified with what you're doing and then you come home and maybe now you've got like problems because you know you had this girlfriend and she took all your money and your dog and like so you go this up and down thing but it was a really

condensed version of that was fighters in the MMA world like grueling camp for eight weeks you know getting beat up and then the final weight cut very draining very low and then they go out fight they win it's like man I've been to those parties like those dudes are freaking going crazy they're making so many bad decisions that night and or they lose and now it's guess what they're doing same thing that bunch of bad decisions just terrible whether it's the higher the low the the freak it performance or the the activities following a big win or a big loss are almost the same yeah which is kind of crazy the pros and these guys actually i'm talking about professional fighters but the really successful guys they win it's like cool i won they're

they're they're they're happy but they're gonna continue to train they're not like you know you can, when the guy says, I'm going to be back in the gym on Monday. When the guy says that, that's a really important thing. When a guy says, oh, I just need some downtime and I'm going to, you, I love when I hear a fighter say, I'll be back in the gym on Monday. Win or lose, I'll be back in the gym on Monday. What a good statement to make. But when you say, well, you know, it was a really tough camp and I'm just looking to, no,

I'm going to warn against that. Be careful of it. The pros do exactly what you said. The people at the top have a level of neutrality where the big accomplishments don't affect them and the big losses also don't affect them. The neutrality is really, I don't want to say superpower. That sounds pretty stupid. But it is a level of capacity that rookies don't have. And I see that with newer entrepreneurs or individuals like that.

And those that cultivate that capacity of neutrality, they're exceptional. Yeah. Stay balanced, everybody. You got courage. So before you added balance and neutrality into this, you had courage, perseverance, obviously got to stick with things. Self-discipline, clearly, big supporter of that over here. Adaptability, that's a good one to remember because things aren't going to always planned.

You're not going to have that food prep that you did and you left it at home and now what are you going to do? or are you going up traveling and you talk a lot about traveling in here because you travel but you know oh the gym didn't have what I want to work out so I'm just not going to do anything you got to be adaptable and then resilience these are kind of the key components that you talk about yeah and courage this is going to be surprising but there is a level of courageousness that is required to feel worthy of excellence expand on that believe it or not when an individual doesn't seem to be reaching their full potential. Let's say I'm seeing a guy or a girl and

they're not getting it together. Often times it comes down to they don't feel worthy of having the health or the body or the discipline or the thing that comes with that execution, which is surprising. But worthiness, feeling worthy of actually being that person trips people up. What does that look like? Give me a little bit of an example. Yeah. Let's say there's a really successful guy that is, you know, he's very successful at his business. He has all this outward discipline.

The business is a multimillion dollar business. He's running teams. He's doing great. And he is a slob. I mean physically. Physically. He is able to execute on the external business and have external discipline, but there is no internal discipline. Because that internal discipline would require a bit of courage for him to identify with something else, become a different type of person, feel worthy of the success that he's having.

And that may seem silly. Like if a team guy's listening, they may be like, come on, get after a ram. I'm a rip off my shirt. whatever. But for many people, an unexamined mind will lead to components of sabotage, and they will only ever go as high as they feel worthy. An individual will feel worthy in business and not feel self-worthy of the success that they have obtained. The only way through that is oftentimes a courageous step. It does require courage to cultivate a way of familiarity.

So the less-than version of themselves becomes familiar. And when we understand familiarity, that becomes the normal. Even though it's not meaningful, it's just normal. And courage is required to question that behavior, that component of health and wellness. Yeah, you just get comfortable with this normal state that you're in and it takes some courage to say I'm not going to live like that anymore. Yeah. And it the lack of discipline becomes familiar and an individual will be surprised by that and will often fall back on the zone of comfort. And it's not that they feel comfortable

being a slot. It's that that is what they know to be the normal. Yeah. Can't let that happen. I'm going to close out the book. Just look again. I just read some highlights with a book. I'm going to close out with this one little section that you've got here. It says, choose your hard far too often and usually without much thought. People default into taking the easiest path. Choosing to do things the least difficult way is what we are programmed to do.

It's part of who we are or maybe who we have become. Unfortunately, doing what's convenient right now is no lasting strategy. It merely makes things more difficult later on. in virtually all cases instead of always looking for the path of least resistance try choosing to do the hard things in life That's what makes us strong So like I said there's I mean the book is several hundred pages long almost four hundred pages long So there's tons of information in the book for people to refer to to go back to to to compare what they've been doing and

where they've been doing things right, maybe where they've been doing things wrong. So forever strong. That's what we're doing. What else do you got going on besides the book? I actually have a podcast. Okay. What's the podcast called?

The Dr. Gabriel Lion Show. Shocking. Easy to find. Very easy to find. We also have a membership. People can find out about that on the website. It is if people have questions, they can join.

we have an expert on every week. Pretty cool to clear up some of these questions, whether it's hormone questions, et cetera. I do have a practice. And I have a concier medical practice. People can find out more information myself. There are other providers. And two really important.

And obviously you can find me on Twitter or Facebook or X, etc. Or YouTube. And all those things, very conveniently, are all that Dr. Gabriel. I almost messed that up. Gabriel lion.com, Dr. Gabriel Lyon on YouTube, Dr. Gabriel Lyon on Instagram, Facebook, where you're there, which is called X now, by the way. Yes. I wanted to mention, may I mention two other things that I think are really important? We didn't get a chance to talk about this,

but I'm hoping at some point in the future we will. There is a foundation called Hunter 7, Foundation that does early detection for veterans and military operators and those in the military, which has done a really great job at early cancer detection. It's called Hunter 7 Foundation. I strongly recommend people. Check it out. It's really important. The other thing that I would like to mention is Seal Future Foundation for those individuals

listening, for those operators and their family listening. I sit on the Board of Health for SEAL Future Foundation. We see a lot of the guys coming out and their families, their wives, their family members. So I think that that's also something very important to mention. No, those are awesome organizations. I didn't know about, I knew about the SEAL Future Foundation, obviously. I didn't know about Hunter 7 until you told me about it.

That's just awesome. So many of these diseases, cancers, If you catch them early, they're no factor. If you catch them late, they kill you. Like it's insane. And so to give people what Hunter 7 does, and again, you explain this to me before you hit record, giving these former special operations guys

this screening to catch these things early and save their lives. And you were telling me there's a big percentage of them that they get caught, just like with any part of the populace. If you don't get screened and you don't get looked at, these cancers just grow, grow inside your body and guess what guess when you notice them when you freaking have major issues and by then oftentimes it's too late so that's an awesome organization and then yeah the seal future

foundation another great organization that helps take care of seals and you know the job of being a seal whether there's a war going on or not is really hard on your body it's really hard you're shooting Carl Gustav rockets. You're sitting there doing explosive breaching. You're getting beat up in boats. You're jumping out of airplanes landing hard. You're firing machine guns. You're firing 50 caliber machine guns. Everything that you're doing. You're around all those chemicals that all those things produce, explosives. You're lacking sleep. Like there's everything, just about everything that you can do is bad for you. Like the job itself is bad for you. Look, you work out. to try and stay in shape for the job, but the job itself is not good for you.

So to have these guys live through that for 20 years, 25 years, 30 years, by the time they get done with that, they're probably going to need some help medically. So these are awesome, awesome organizations that help out with that. And it's awesome that someone like you with your knowledge is on the board and connected with those things and getting people out there because obviously I am a big supporter of that community. that these organizations that are helping that community is awesome. And clearly you're a support of that community as well, since you made the fatal error of meeting a team guy one night, and that's what happened. I actually told him that there was zero chance,

and I did not pick up the phone for like two months. That just would not stop. But you know what? He had courage. He had resilience. He had balance. He had the mindset to make it happen. That goes a long way.

So does that get us up to speed? We're good. We've got Dr. Gabriel lion.com. And then you got Twitter, YouTube. Yeah. You got your podcast, same title. So good universal titling. I like it.

Does that get us up to speed? It does. Yes, sir. Echo Charles. What do you got for questions? Do you remember what year you were in Hawaii? No, I don't. What about roughly?

Was it before 2001? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hawaii. I was on Kauai. Kauai my hood really are you from Kauai I'm from Kauai are you serious but at that time I I because I went to UH University Hawaii so are you serious yeah yeah so I was probably there that's my favorite place in the world so we lived in Princeville oh right on and then and then

we um Princeville and then we were near Honolay yeah yeah no sure yeah it's good I love Kauai I grew up on the south side okay and is that a poipoo poip poip yeah oh yeah oh day oh day right on Yeah, so from 95 to 99, I was on Oahu, though. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. That's amazing. And Princeville is super nice, though. Yeah.

Are you with like a rich family? Yeah. That's Princeville right there. They were, but it wasn't that rich at the time. Now it's just like crazy. Also, so, okay, so if I go to the doctor hypothetically and they say, hey, all you're not, you know, I get my blood work done, they say, hey, all your numbers are great, you know, except your cholesterol is kind of high. So is this for the podcast? Or is this not for the podcast?

No, no, no. This is the deal. Oh, okay. Because I was like, I'll take care of that. I got that. I can do that for you. Yeah, see. We should do a, I'm happy to do that.

We can do a full cardiac screening, like a legitimate, not just cholesterol. Okay, so, because, okay, so I used to drink a lot. And I was like, hey, like, I'm getting older now. So, and this was like probably like a decade of solid drinking. That's impressive. This could be problematic kind of thing. I wasn't feeling nothing except for every once in a while. feel like kind of like dismal just in general we'll say so I was like I let me get my blood

or I don't need my liver just conking out one day you know so let's get some blood work done see see all the things so but I would still work out still do all that stuff right even sometimes twice a day this whole thing so I went got the blood work done and everything looked good everything after just a decade of solid drinking like all this stuff so I'm like freak it's probably because I'm still working out hard but they did save my cholesterol's high Now, another guy that I know who's kind of this athletic type or whatever, he was like, Pat, don't worry about that because that could mean other stuff, you know? There's like more to it than that.

Is that true? I would agree with that. We wouldn't just look at cholesterol. We'd look at something called an APOB. We'd look at insulin resistance. We'd look at a lipid particle panel. There's other things. I would not typically just treat off of total cholesterol.

That's a little bit archaic, I think. And obviously, you know, with my bachelor's, well, it's more of an associate's in bro science. I was like, hey. I think you got a doctor, bro. I was like, hey, so he was like, hey, I'm going to prescribe you some medication. But I was like, you know, no, I'm not going to take the medication. And I didn't take the medication. Never did.

And then that's when I talked to my other friend. And he was like, no, there's more to it than that. Don't worry. He talked to a different, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we put our heads together. That's funny. You know, it depends if it's hyper cholesterol, familial, hyper cholesterolemia.

we would really have to look at the full picture. And then the next level of that would be doing something called a G.B. Insight. And what that is is that would be a genetic profile of the kind of medication or where. So let me take a step back. It will show us where the defect is. Are you absorbing too much of the lipids? Are you not excreting them, et cetera? So it would show us exactly where the challenge is as to why.

your levels would be high. And then it allows to pinpoint treatment. What kind of medication would an individual use? What is the target? So that's what I would do. And then finally, really getting imaging. So it's not just blood. You have to see something called what we use is a clearly scan. So it shows hard and soft plaque. Oh, dear. Is that like a Dexas scan? Is that different? Not quite. It's a CT scan. They put dye in you and you, it'll look at, it's a whole thing. It's a whole situation. It's a whole situation. But I will tell you, I trial all of this stuff out on my husband.

Okay. So it's all good. As long as I prepped you before, but that is very valuable. Because you have to address a challenge despite where the standards of care are. If there is an inclination that this has to be addressed, we should look at it from a comprehensive. of view because a more progressive physician will be able to identify the pillars, for example, whether it's a genetic test, whether it's an APOB, whether it is insulin resistance, etc., and then take an action.

That makes sense. Kind of confirmed my deal, as always. Last question. So let's say grapes, right, grapes, the fruits. Can we overeat grapes? Yeah, you can overeat anything. Grapes, again, could they be healthy totally? They do have more fructose.

You're not going to overeat fructose on just grapes. Yeah. So, okay. So, because we're talking about overeating in of the carbs. There is. It's a, it's a little bit of,

it's a little bit of a Pandora's box, but I think grapes are great. They do have sugars. If you really wanted to get crazy with it, you could throw a glucose monitor on yourself. Eat a whole bunch of grapes. See how high your blood sugar goes. And then see how you feel.

I have these grapes. Right. So last night I ate two steaks, some rice, and then we had some grapes, you know, with the kids, they're fun and there are some really good grapes. You know, some grapes are a lot more sweet than others. You know, these were the way on this side of the spectrum of sweetness. And I felt like I over ate the grapes because I was already full, but I was like, but I can't stop eating these grapes. So what I'm saying? Like, is that a thing?

Because it's not like blueberries, for example. Blueberries taste super good. But after a while, you're like, but I'm kind of done with these blueberries after a little bit. But the grapes weren't like that. See what I'm saying? I felt like they were overriding my whole system. Like did you eat the whole thing? No, no, no.

The whole stock. I could have. I would have probably if I didn't, like, catch myself. No, I think it's, I think that with your amount of activity, it would be very difficult to really overconsume. I have less worry about that. Is it a red flag, though, that I was, like, super full from all the steak and rice and stuff, and then I was still like, I can't stop eating it. Isn't that, like, a small red flag in and of itself?

No, because the truth is you could have stopped eating it. You didn't want to. Yes. Yeah. I just felt like it was like an addiction being carried out right there in front of my eyes. So psychologically. If it wasn't addiction, you would have kept going. That's what she's saying.

Like, you call yourself. Yeah, but I'm a very strong and disciplined person as far as addiction go for the most part. But I'm just saying, let's say I'm a little kid or something like this, you know, and I'm like, are these grapes genetically engineered? You know, you know how they put extra stuff in it to make them taste sweet or whatever? They have definitely changed fruits over time to make them more sweet and more. more palatable. Yes. If you,

have you ever had the, have you ever had grapes that have just, um, like heirloom, not airloom, like wild caught grapes or whatever. Anything, anything,

anything wild that has never been engineer at all is just awful. Have you ever had the cotton candy grapes? Yeah. Have you had those? Have you had those? Those are crazy. Yeah. That's one,

that's part of why I'm saying it because grapes are one of those ones. There's these, I think they call them black grapes. They're super dark purple. Probably they're the same way. you can't stop eating because they're so sweet. It's like, I don't know, there's something going on is what I feel. But if you're, if you're telling me, hey, these are fruits.

So just like celery or blueberries or whatever, bad, eat as many as you need kind of thing. But here's what I would say. Prove it to yourself. Yeah. Throw a glucose monitor on. See actually what happens. And then once you do that, you'll know exactly. And you'll either never do it again or you'll keep doing it.

Carry on. Carry on. So get to the bottom of it then basically. Okay. Yes, sir. Addiction. There we go. You got any more questions?

I'm any more, but we're going to leave it at that for now, maybe next time. All right. Well, any closing calls from you? No. I just want to thank you for everything that you do, that you guys both do for the community. Well, I appreciate it. Now, I'm glad you could make it down here. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for sharing this information. Thanks for putting that book together. Thanks for doing what you do to help normal people get on the path. stay on the path and clearly thanks for what you do for the SEAL community with Hunter 7 with the SEAL Future Foundation. It's awesome. And thanks for continuing to work with people to help them get healthier in all aspects of their lives and, of course, stay forever strong.

Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks. And with that, Gabrielle has left the building. Trying to stay strong. out there. Yes, very, look, do we have confirmation bias? Yeah.

We might, bro, but, big time. But we also have some science, some bro science. We're trying to get stronger. We're trying to be stronger. We want to have muscle. We want to eat protein. Yep. We want to work out.

That's what we're doing. So confirmation bias, perhaps. Yeah. But let's face it. Kind of true. Hey, when you're an actual, uh, train. trained, experienced, professional. Yeah.

Saying it, I don't think that that's necessarily bias. Well, let's face it. You and I have a bias. Yes. That supports everything that she just said. Yeah. Right. That being said, she, you know, she's seen thousands of patients, right?

She's gone through the schooling. She's experienced it herself. So confirmation bias, yes. But even if you remove that, you got to listen up. Hey, listen, if you just think, hey, Echo and Jock, or just meatheads, they're just working out, protein, if that's what you're thinking right now and you want to throw this away, I would strongly recommend against that. And there are, there now is real science.

And you just heard from a doctor talking about why. Lift weights, run, sprint, eat protein. Work on your building muscles. What an awesome thing. It's going to make you better in every aspect of your life. You've been saying that since whatever number of podcasts, lifting and working out will help every aspect of your life more than anything else. It's the same thing that she's saying.

So bro science, converge. Real science converged. We're there. Lift weights. Eat clean. Eat protein. That's what we're doing. She was asking about protein, right?

We know. And one of the things she's got in the book is, 30 grams of protein like get that 30 grams of protein at every meal that's what a muck is guess what a r t d mokus 30 grams of protein that's what we're doing out of the gate and and that's another thing she got in the book because I read the book I didn't read the whole thing today but she was like hey if you're going to somewhere where there may be inappropriate foods before you go there have a mulk before you go there yeah have a mulk before you go there

and that way you get there instead of having six slices of freaking pizza Yeah, maybe you have a singular slice and you could bargain with stuff well I would rather just have four pieces not have the no have the protein have something that's good for you then go there the other point that I brought up about Wait till tomorrow to take a day off wait till tomorrow to have the pizza good advice Yeah, so that's what we're doing get that protein in but milk and she also asked me about do I Go off the path bro if I think about back in the day how much mint chocolate chip ice cream I used to have Yeah For milk and now milk tastes so good. It gives you this satiety.

I think that's a word. Satiation, the satisfaction of having a dessert. And yet it's protein. So good for you. So that's what we're doing. You should do that too, by the way. Jockofield.com. Jockofuel.com.

Get some of that, get some of that protein. Get some of that. Get some hydrate. Get some greens. Creatine and greens. Are you doing that combo yet? Are you doing hydrate greens? Hydrate green.

No, hydrate creatine. Hydrate creatine. Get the creatine in your system. It's another thing that's going to just jack you. Do you get the reports from K-Dog? About the three wheels? Yeah. He's up to three wheels.

First time. First time. So Kerry, first time in his life, by the way. How old's Kerry? 30-something. 30-something. 36. 36 never never never never bench three wheels before yeah well yeah yes no no he has now

yeah yeah before I get you well guess what get some of that joccal creatine part of the program oh yeah and all of a sudden you getting stronger so that's what we're doing and there's no denying that but if you're like hey I've never bench 315 doesn't matter if it's 315 two wheels four wheels whatever if you if you're like hey I've never done this but I do want to get this in and you take creeteen versus not take creatine cretine's gonna get you there quicker oh yeah Um, and factually. Oh yeah, factually.

And so this is, this is what Gabriel Lyon said actually after we were recording she brought up the creatine. Yeah. So it was like it was yet another confirmation that the creatine among other things are one of these things that men if you, if you implement these certain things in, into your protocol. Yeah. Another thing.

In your protocol speaking protocol. Seriously. Joint warfare. Take joint warfare. Take. Oil take time more these things are so good so good for you anyways you guys know the deal jaco fuel go to joccofuel.com that's where that's where you can get it you can also get it vitamin chop Gnc military commissaries hanifes or afees hanaford's dash stores in maryland wakefern shop right

hbbb down in tejas get in there appreciate you all down in Texas just keeping it real keeping it real down there the reports we're getting you all are going in there and just getting after it so that's appreciate same thing with mire up in the midwest Thank you. Go in there and get after it. We're doing some good deals at these places right now, too. Kind of crazy. So get in there.

Harris, Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, small gyms everywhere. If you got a gym and you want to sell Jocko Fuel, so everyone at your gym can get stronger, faster, smarter, and healthier, email JafSales at joccoFuel.com. That's what we're doing. JoccoFuel.com. Get some. It's true.

Also, origin, USA. American Made, American manufacturing. back to America 100% it got kind of almost lost for a while yeah yeah it did almost get lost they were down to the last and we got it we have the knowledge now we got 20 year olds that know how to operate a loom that's what we're doing so yeah origin USA.com got everything you need we got workout gear we got jihitsu gear rash guards geese jih Tis two geese that feel good but like another element of the world has come into play Not to mention jeans, boots, hoodies, t-shirts,

the whole night. OriginUSA.com. American manufacturing. None of this matters. None of the anything that we're talking about matters if our country falls apart. So one of the components of that is economic strength. Where do we get economic strength? We have to be able to make things.

We have to be self-reliant. We have to start somewhere. Where do you start? Origin. USA.com. Crush communism, support America. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing.

Also, Jocko has a store called Jocko store, aka DeafCorp. This is if you want to represent on the path. You don't care if someone's looking cool or someone, if no one's looking cool, but you're still representing this is where you go. This is where you get your stuff. Shirts, hoodies, got into some, we got a new hoodie, the quick flip one, multiple purposes, you know, converts into a bay. Anyway, check it out.

Discipline equals freedom. has we have a new discipline equals freedom standard shirt. 2024. Come on out, be on the lookout for that. It's not out yet, but if you sign up for the email list on the on the store on the bottom there, you can get alerted when they come out so you can get the first wave, the first a dish,

as one might say. Anyway, also there's a, we have a little program, if you will, subscription scenario called the shirt locker. That's a new design representing discipline equals freedom in one way or not. They're a little bit different. I get it. But you can get a new one every month.

You like that, don't you? Very much, very much. You like that. I do. Everything you get to say that. I like what we get to do. How about that? You like this.

So, speaking of what I like, the new sugar-coated lies shirt for the shirt-locker for March has been deployed. Okay. It's out there in the world. It's in production. No, no, no. Has it not has it sorry in production sorry not deployed like they're not offered yet starts in March March first but yeah it's good and it's good and it's not what someone would think or it is what

someone would think put it this way well I think if you look at it this is what I think I don't know I can't read everybody's mind but but I predict that if you see it you'll see the layers and you'll be like I like it I like it I'm down for the for the design okay it's called the shirt locker like new designs every month that's where you can get it jocco store dot com Also, speaking of getting things, we talked about steak today. Yeah. On this podcast. Yeah.

With Gabrielle. We talked about steak. Get yourself some steak. Get yourself some good steak. Go to primalbeef.com or Colorado Craftbeef.com and get yourself some steak that tastes delicious. And we'll give you protein. That's what you're looking for. Protein forward.

Yeah. I kind of like that. Oh, yeah. Protein forward. I've been protein forward for a long time. I'm with you. Protein forward. You know what helps you be protein forward?

Colorado craft beef.com. Primalbeef.com. Go get yourself some steak. That's what we're doing. Also, subscribe to the podcast. Also, jocco underground.com. Also, YouTube channels. There's this YouTube channel.

There's Jock Fuel YouTube channel. They just put up a funny one. Did you see the one with Chale? They put up with Chales on it. It's really good. Chale's a freaking character. And he's beating his son with a belt. Sure.

Hell yeah. And his son is like just, They're just having a blast, man. It's just so freaking cool to see. So check that one out. Also, origin USA. So check that one out. We just did a little behind the scenes filming.

We had a meeting down there in North Carolina at the factory, talking about the, we're now looking at the clothing that we're bringing out in 2025. Some of it's 2024, but we're trying to plan more in advance and just bringing in better quality stuff, more options for everyone. and made 100% in the United States of America,

as I mentioned. So check that one out as well. Origin USA is the YouTube channel. Is that what he's called? Yeah, YouTube channel. Okay. So there you go, psychological warfare, flipside canvas.

Dakota Meyer making cool stuff to hang on your wall. We got a bunch of books. Obviously the book we just covered today, Forever Strong by Gabriel, Dr. Gabriel Lyon. So check that one. Also, I've written a bunch of books, Leadership Strategies and Tactics, Field, manual final spin code the evaluation protocol discipline because freedom field manual I

brought that up a cold time say it's 2017 how old is that six years almost seven years almost seven years old guess what still pertinent pertinent pertinent even you know what more pertinent there's no there's no information there you're like oh well that was back then no no it's holding up and it's holding up well she was saying stuff today she's starting to talk about the brain benefits of exercise. It's in the book. Discipline extreme field mail, check it out.

And of course, I've written a bunch of kids' books. Kids books. Your kids need to be on the path. Your neighbor's kids need to be on the path. Your nieces and nephews and grandkids, get them on the path. Send them in the right direction.

Wave the Warrior Kids series. Check those out. Mikey and the Dragos. Check that out. Also, extreme ownership, dichotomy leadership, Hackworth, About Face.

These are all books. We have a leadership consultancy, echelonfront.com. If you want us to come out and help you with your organization, you can do that. Also, we have an online training academy, extreme ownership academy. Go to extreme ownership.com. If you want to learn how to lead yourself and others through this arduous world that we're in. It's called life. You need skills.

You can learn them. Extremeownership. Check it out. If you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, Gold Star Families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to help, you want to donate, you want to get involved, go to America's Mighty Warriors.org.

Also, Micah Fink up in the mountains, heroes and horses.org. Also, Jimmy Mays organization beyond the brotherhood. org. And then, of course, we have Hunter 7 and the Seal Future Foundation, which guys. Gabriel talked about today. Check all those out if you want to support. If you want to connect with us for Gabrielle, she's got Dr.Gabriellion.com.

She's also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, which is now called X, by the way. Did you know that? I'm here. Good things. And she has a YouTube channel. So you can find her in all those locations, Dr. Gabriel Lyon.

And it's Dr. DR. It's not like the full word. So that's where you can find her. And if you want to connect with Echo and I, I'm at Jocko. Willink Echo's at Echo Chalko. Just be careful because you go in there, you got your head down. You're kind of like not aware of what's going on. Sure.

You start, your thumb starts, your finger starts moving up, swiping. Scrolling. Scrolling. It's called Infinite scroll. That's what it's called. It's called Infinite scroll. Did you know that? No.

It's a thing. It didn't used to exist. Infinite scroll. Infinite scroll. When you're just going, it's just scrolling. No end inside. No end in sight. And they invented that.

They invented that. It didn't exist. A little while ago, you'd scroll and get to the bottom. And guess what you do then? Stop scrolling. You freaking go pick up a kettlebell. Yeah, it said you're all caught up. Yeah.

Remember that? Wait, does it not say that anymore? No. I haven't seen that at one. It's infinite scroll. Think about that. Infinite scroll. So you can get on and you can start to scroll and you can never leave.

Then you die. It's called you out. And by the way, the things that's showing you are things that you want. I've heard now they're, they're, uh, it can see you. And it's watching your eyes. Well, it definitely knows how long, like when you scroll past something and it's like, oh, Jiu-Jitsu, oh, that's a good guard pass. You watch it.

Oh, yeah. Shows you another guard pass. Mm-hmm. Shows you another guard pass. And then you go, you see, uh, you see a karate thing. Mm-hmm. You scroll right by that. It doesn't show you any more karate.

Goes back to J-Jitsu. Now it shows like the details. Yeah. Now it's showing you a ghee. Now it's, you know, I mean it's it's like troubleshooting your thing it's it's like an infinite scroll customized for your dumb ass so don't fall into it that's what it is so just be careful the algorithm it's a monster and by the way we are only able to be sitting here

tonight doing what we're doing because of our military troops out there right now sacrificing their freedoms so we can keep ours so thanks to all of our troops also thanks to our police law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers correctional officers, Border Patrol Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for your sacrifices to keep us safe here at home. And everyone else out there, it's simple, but it's not easy. Simple, but it's not easy. Don't eat the junk.

Lift heavy things. Move. Don't submit your movements. Run, sprint. Get the protein you need. Train. This is not complicated. It's not complicated.

This isn't rocket science. This isn't brain surgery. It's not complicated. But you have to have discipline. You have to have discipline. You have to impose discipline to get up every day. Go out there and get after it. Until next time.

This is Echo and Jocko. Out.