Jocko Podcast - 432: What Leads to Conflicts Between Groups of People? And What Leads to Cooperation?

Episode Date: April 2, 2024

Intergroup Conflict and Cooperation. The Robbers Cave Experiment. What Leads to Conflicts Between Groups of People? Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 432 with Echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Talk of raids had been in the air in both groups all day. The Eagles had mentioned the possibility and indulged in bravado talk, but no plans were made. Simpson was pushing the idea in the Rattler group, and as the possibility of their winning faded during the day, it became generally accepted. Mills, the leader, stipulated that it should not be a night raid because the Eagles had told them they were cowards to raid at night while the Eagles had come in broad daylight. Martin said he would raid if the Rattlers won, but not if they lost because that would be bad sportsmanship.

This same Martin entered into the raid that same day without question after the Rattlers lost. He was one of few boys actually engaged in a physical clash with two eagles and had to be forcibly restrained from fighting. That right there is a quote from an academic paper called intergroup conflict and cooperation, the robbers cave experiment. And that academic paper was authored by Musifur Sharif, O.J. Harvey. B. Jack White, William R. Hood, and Carolyn W. Sharif. Sharif.

And I mentioned this experiment. You might remember it. I do. A few months ago on an underground podcast, jocco underground.com. And got a lot of feedback about it, got a lot of questions about it. Also, and there's a lot of people

that have been now referring to the Eagles and the Rattlers kind of as a thing, right? It's become part of the nomenclature that we use. People talk about the Eagles and the Rattlers and this group dynamic. So I wanted to go into a little bit more detail in it, since I think it is very revealing. Now I'm going to read through not that entire experiment, that paper that I just quoted,

but there's another kind of synopsis paper that was written by Muzafir, Shafir, or Sharif himself. It's called Experiments in Group Conflict. And this is from volume 195, number five, from the 1956 Scientific American, which is a magazine that's been around since 1845. So, old paper, but definitely revealing. And I think he did a good job with the synopsis. Now, Moussafir Sharif was a Turkish-American social psychologist. He studied social norms. He studied social processes and he studied as we'll see social conflicts and he arrived in America like I said he's from Turkey

So he arrived in America after he lived through the Balkland Wars and World War I He arrived to America during the Depression and then he went to Harvard and he left Harvard and went to Columbia where he got his PhD He went back to Turkey in the late 1930s Where He pretty much supported the communist against the Nazis in the late 30s and then he pretty much supported the communist against the Nazis in the late 30s and then and came back to America permanently around 1945, where he was kind of followed by the FBI and interrogated by the FBI to be as a communist sympathizer.

In 1947, he wrote a book called The Psychology of Ego Involvements. I'm going to have to take a look into that one. And he wrote a bunch of other books as well, and he wrote many of those books with his wife, Carolyn, who was also a psychologist. Just interestingly enough, he was diagnosed as a manic depressive, or having manic depression. He attempted suicide at some point, which is always, to me, is always strange.

If you're in the field of psychology. And I mean, I guess it's not that strange because you get interested in it because you feel a certain way. Okay. So, yeah, I guess I shouldn't say I don't understand it. I understand it. but it is not very encouraging when someone that studies psychology attempts suicide but this is an example of it he did not succeed and he died according to his daughter he was in bad spirits when he died in 1988 had a heart attack

but along the way and you know one thing that when when I start talking about this depression thing and this kind of political activity that he had. It makes me a little bit nervous about, hey, what is this guy? What kind of bias is he bringing into his experiments? But he had a ton of I read all those names. That's why I read all the names of all the people that are involved in all these experiments that he did. So it wasn't like this one guy that was sort of giving his biased opinion. Because let's face it, if you're a communist and I'm not saying he was a communist. And look, when you're siding with the communists versus the Nazis, I mean, this is a lose, lose scenario. But if you're a If you are a communist and you're working with group dynamics, you're probably going to have a bias that's going to come out and paint a picture of like, whoa, it was much better when everyone was working together, right?

You can see where that happens. But like I said, there's a bunch of different people that were involved in this experiment. It wasn't just him. And I think everyone will see. There's a reason why when we talked about it on the underground, people have been asking me about it and referring to it on a very regular basis because I think it's very pertinent.

to everything we see in the world today or much of what we see in the world today. And I think you're going to agree. So let's get to it from Musafir, Sharif, and Scientific American. Here it is, this document called Experiments in Group Conflict. So starts off, what are the conditions which lead to harmony or friction between groups of people? Here, the question is approached by means of control. controlled situations in a boys summer camp conflict between groups whether between boys gangs social classes races or nations has no simple cause nor is mankind yet in sight of a

cure isn't it crazy as advances we are we put men on the moon we have phones in our pocket that are have access to all the information in the world and yet there's still tonight going to be two people who fight each other from two different gangs and there's going to be two countries that fight each other and kill thousands of each other because we're part of two different tribes, two different gangs, like that's happening today. It is often rooted in deep, impersonal, social, economic, religious, and historical forces.

Nevertheless, it is possible to identify certain general factors that have a crucial influence on the attitude of any group toward others. Social scientists have long sought out to bring these factors to light by studying what might be called the natural history of groups, and group relations. Inner group conflict and harmony is not a subject that lends itself easily to laboratory experiment. Yeah, clearly, that's going to be hard to do. But in recent years, there's been a beginning of attempts to investigate the problem

under controlled yet lifelike conditions. And I shall report here the results of a program of experimental studies of groups, which I started in 1948. And he lists off all the people involved again. Marvin Sussman, Robert Huntington, O.J. Harvey, B. Jack White. It's kind of a cool name. William R. Hood and his wife, Carolyn W. Sharif. The experiments were conducted in 1949, 1953, and 1954.

This article gives a composite of the findings. We wanted to conduct our study with groups of the informal type where group organization and attitudes would evolve naturally. and spontaneously without formal direction or external pressures. This is pretty cool because you can take kind of pre-existing groups and bring them together, but they wanted the groups to form as part of the experiment. Yeah. So here's how they went about it. For this purpose, we conceive that an isolated summer camp would make a good experimental setting and that decision led us to choose as subjects, boys about 11 or 12 years old who would find camping natural and fascinating. Mm-hmm.

Confirmed. Since our aim was to study the development of group relations among these boys under carefully controlled conditions with as little interference as possible from personal neurosis, background influences, or prior experiences, we selected normal boys of homogeneous backgrounds who did not know one another before they came to camp. So you're basically getting a bunch of the same type of dude. Yeah. They were picked by a long, thorough procedure. We interviewed each boy's family, teachers, and school officials, studied his school and medical records, obtained his scores on personality tests, and observed him in classes

and at play with his schoolmates. With all this information, we were able to assure ourselves that boys chosen were of like, kind, and background. All were healthy, socially well-adjusted, somewhat above average in intelligence, and from stable, white, Protestant middle-class homes. So that's what we've got. That's where we're kicking this thing off with, which is interesting,

because how often do you actually get to be a part of a group that's like that, where everyone's kind of the same? And when everyone's not that much the same, what does that do? Well, I guess that's part of the experiment is we want to just have like a control, a control group. It doesn't matter. Everyone kind of looks kind of the same. Everyone's kind of the same athletic.

Everyone's the same smart. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, yeah, not control group. I guess the control. Yeah, yeah. It's called the control where, yeah, like, because certain experiments are, what do they call them, less valid, right?

Where when there's all these other variables that are not controlled for, that is what I guess, what they say. So they had to mitigate the variability here. Yeah, yeah. Because like even when they're saying the neuroses that they're trying to avoid. Like if one guy has some anomalous situation where he has, I don't know, He's scared of heights or he wets his bed or whatever. Or has turrets.

He's the only guy. That's going to affect the whole deal. Kind of a thing. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Check. So here we go. None of the boys was aware that he was part of an experiment on group relations.

The investigators appeared as regular camp staff, camp directors, counselors, and so on. The boys met one another for the first time in buses that took them to the camp. And so far as they knew, it was a normal summer of camping. Isn't it weird? Like you throw your kid into an experiment? You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's not in this.

I read another paper about this, the longer paper. And they paid like $25 to the parents for this particular one. So that they could use the kids. And it meant that they weren't going to be able to talk to their parents. Did the parents know what the experiment was all about? I think that, yes, they were told like this is an experiment. But you can't tell your kids. Yeah.

But I wonder how in depth they went with explanation. Just the idea, just the word experiment. Yeah, we're going to experiment on your kid. That's going to cause some issues. Well, you know, I was part of, I don't know if you even call it experiment, but it's what they call it a longitudinal study. Oh, yeah. Where they go and they ask like some, well, the cool thing is,

especially nowadays with the regulation. Derek more plates, more dates. He's all about them longitudinal studies, right? That's what we're doing. That's where we get the info. Yeah, that's where the info comes from. you know, but they ask questions that are like sensitive. But, you know, which you might expect, you have the option to like decline to answer.

Is this longitudinal study that you're a part of? Is that because you have a twin brother? Or is it just random? I forget if it's because I have a twin brother. In fact, from what I understand now, from what I remember, it's not because I had a twin brother. But that's a bonus? I don't think it affected the reason why I was part of it. But I know that it is part of it.

I remember before they'd asked questions about it, but not. It wasn't based on that. No, it didn't feel like it anyway. It was more about like. Do they do that with twins, though? Have you ever seen the twins that get separated at birth and they get put in different families? Are you kind of hone in on those things a little bit?

A little bit. And to me, that part, not to go too deep into just be twins in general, but I guess it is relevant because, okay, so twins, this is the way I understand it as being a twin and I hear what everyone says. Because if you're not a twin, there's a lot of stuff you just can't relate to or whatever. Dude, that's kind of a weird thing. You would think, but if that's all you know, not being a twin, twin seems kind of weird, you know?

Like as far as the feeling goes, you know, of course it's not weird when I see it. But the, you know, people are like, oh, you guys have telepathic, like can you read each other's mind? And it's like, yeah, like pretty much our whole life, it felt like we could read each other's minds. Like, oh, I know what he's thinking right now kind of a thing. But when you really think about it as like a grown-up, and not thinking in terms of like magic or, you know, freaking telepathy or whatever, you're like,

it makes sense that he can read my mind under certain circumstances. Just like I can read J.P.'s mind. Yeah, exactly right. I love to J.P. and J.P. looks at me and I know what he's thinking. He knows what I'm thinking about. So take that idea, because that's absolutely 100% correct.

Where take that idea and I'll apply it to not just, because you're talking about in very specific situations, right? Where you're like a, now take that idea and just like that. expand it to your whole life so every experience essentially like pretty much 99% probably more than 99% of my experiences he was there so I'm talking about growing up not after adult or whatever so growing up we're gonna know what age probably like 23 maybe maybe 29% of your experiences until the age of 23 you

co-participated in with your twin brother yeah maybe 22 that's one I would say when I started getting into working out way more heavy like after football that's kind of win. But still, we live together well into our 20s, but our past started to deviate at that point. What, you were going heavy? He was not lifting this heavy. He was going lighter.

He was going to cardio. No, he was into professional stuff. You know, his career kind of started at that point. And the last, what do you call the formative years, right? When you grow, while you're growing up, we're together pretty much. So think about it. Did you guys share a bedroom? We shared bedroom through high school.

Damn, okay. And then we dorm together in college. So, yeah. We shared bedroom until we, you know, move to the mainland or whatever. Or no, until we got an apartment, whatever. But so you consider that, right, how you can read J.P's mind and vice versa

in certain circumstances. We can do that in pretty much all circumstances because when this X, Y, Z stimulus, whatever you want to call it, you know, when this happens, we're both thinking the same thing because our thoughts are based on past experience, which is just very similar. We share it a lot.

You know, so yes, it feels like you can read each other's mind because you know already, but it's not like, oh, I can read his mind. It's not that. It's just like, I'm thinking this. I look over, I know 100%. He's thinking that exact same thing. And then it goes from like big, obvious stuff

to just teeny tiny stuff. And here's when it got weird, but it makes sense now, is when I see something super small, like just something as small as like this lens right here being that close to the table. Like stuff within the stuff that you're recognizing. And then it reminds me of something, which reminded me of something.

And then it'll cause me to say something. And then I'll say it. And he'll be like, oh, I was just about to say that. Because based on something that is fairly insignificant, but I just happen to see it at the same time. And it led us down a thought process that arrived at the exact same spot. That part is really rare. But it would happen all the time. So it's like, man, they are fucking sharing the same brain and like all that kind of stuff.

But it's like, it's explainable. But it makes it, yes, that's real. And so the longitudinal study that you're a part of, how often do you have to check in with these people? It's like a long time. So at first it was like every few years, if I'm not mistaken. And then now it's like every 10 years or something. Do you think your parents got paid to put you in the study or anything?

We get paid for it. Oh, you get paid. Yeah. How much? 200 bucks for an hour. Hour interview. Actually, it's two hours. Sorry.

Yeah. Back in the day, they had to come in. little bit handy right yeah do they do they share any results with you they don't they don't share any results with us they don't share any like personal stuff so like there's certain stuff that it's only for their records to like keep track of us but as far as the results for what the results are for like I think our name like certain things they don't they don't include you know so like your privacy essentially is like kept private truck but it could

When did it start? What age? I don't remember. I think like when we were little kids. Okay. But yeah, they just essentially, they want to find out in a given population who's ending up where and what are they thinking, you know, kind of a thing. I hope they could figure out what you're doing.

Nobody knows. Yeah. Yeah, because the questions are like that kind of stuff. Like, you know, how often do you have this feeling? How often this? Oh, weird. And like, why this? And then you have the like memory tests and stuff.

remember these numbers. It's kind of fun because it's kind of little challenges, you know, but, but yeah. So that's what I, that's what I concluded. So you were part of an experiment, kind of. And you're, how old were you when you started? I don't know. Kid. So a kid. Yeah. So your parents enrolled you in an experiment. Yeah. So that's what we're saying here. That's, something had to go down where if the parents, the parents knew like we're putting your child into an experiment. How many people right now in 2024, would, something had to go down. If the parents, the parents knew, like, would put their 10 year old or 11 year old child into a quote summer camp for a quote experiment for 25 bucks well what i mean you got to yeah but even for like 150 bucks or 200 bucks or

300 bucks damn i'd throw all my kids in there see what up let it happens let her what happens yeah that but this is like an actual experiment experiment my thing is just a study like they're it's not invasive they're not trying to they're not throwing in some stimulus to see how i react they're They're not doing that kind of stuff, you know. That would be an experiment kind of ends up being. All right. Back to the document here. To keep the situation as lifelike as possible, we conducted all our experiments within the framework of regular camp activities and games.

We set up projects which were so interesting and attractive that the boys plunged into them enthusiastically without suspecting they might be test situations. Unobtrusively, we made records of their behavior, even using hidden cameras and microphones when feasible. We began by observing how the boys became a coherent group. The first of our camps was conducted in the hills of Northern Connecticut in the summer of 1949. When the boys arrived, they were all housed at first in one large bunkhouse. As was to be expected, they quickly formed particular friendships and chose buddies. We had deliberately put all the boys together in this expectation because we wanted to see

what would happen later after the boys were separated into different groups. It's so interesting to think about this from a military perspective, because that's exactly what happens when you join the military. You get put into a big freaking room with, I don't know how many people, like 70 people in Navy boot camp. When I went through, I think it was probably around 70 to 100 people. And they're all in there. And it's just people from all over the whole country.

And they're weird. Some are freaking weird, right? Oh, yeah. Did you, is that the game? Like, when you say you put them in or they put you guys in a room, what was that like a waiting room? No, no, no. I mean, like you move into a room. There's, you know, it's the typical boot camp see with all the bunk beds lined up.

Oh, that's where you guys live. Yeah, that's where you're living. Yep. That's the way it kicks off. And you're about to figure out who's who. So how many beds are in a, like, room? I'm, I'm guessing it was like 100 or maybe, let's say 80. Let's say 80.

Let's say 80 people. I would say 80 is probably a pretty good. It might be 100. But I'm trying to think of how big that room was. And you look on the left, you look on the right. Yeah, if there would have been 20 bunk beds on each side, yeah. That's 40 per side, that's 80 people.

So it's probably around 80 people. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And you, you know, like right out of the gate, you're going to see some people that aren't ready for this whole, this whole scene. Nope. You know, there was a kid that was really freaking out. Yeah.

Like crying and all this stuff. And another dude was sleep walking all weird. Yeah. So you can see some weird. It's also weird that people aren't even weirder than that. that you take 80 people and most of them just get in there I'm like all right this is what we're doing yeah now they didn't went through some kind of screening

to get in there so you don't have people that might have some kind of serious issues yeah but everyone goes in there and they're all like all right gonna make my bed you're gonna fold my socks and all this crap what do they do if the guy does sleepwalk for example in the navy I'm sure I'm sure and you can't be in there anymore

like kick you out yeah I mean you can't have a bro walk just walk off of a ship or whatever oh yeah in the middle of the night or walking around even yeah and yeah that's the do you sleepwalk no my kids do though oh yeah yeah i was it's it so did you look into it like what no does it deal with it no not really it's not a issue like it's not like it's not like every single day but just every once in a while it's like you just know because you can see the look in their eye you know oh yeah so he's and but what they're doing is stuff they already know so it's not like they're woo walking into the pool or something you know it's doing it's doing

pull-ups and stuff. It'll just go and like, yeah, it's like this is a weird part of sleepwalking that I've witnessed anyway. They'll come and it's almost like they have had something that they were doing in their own head and they just continued to do it. So it'd be real random, you know? Like my son will come and sit. So my wife has a little office, right?

And it's kind of off to the side or whatever. So I'll hear them coming up and like kind of like whining. or talking or something, you know, just saying like nonsense or whatever. And then I'll just hear him kind of stop. And then I'll go and I'll look. And he's just like sitting there like trying to do something. But you already know. So you just walk him, walk him down.

You go, oh, no, let's go downstairs. He'll be like, just come downstairs. So go to sleep and they won't remember. So it's like that kind of stuff. Well, you can't sleepwalk and be in the military as from what I know. Yeah, it seems like to sleep. Some sleepwalkers, they do other stuff. Like there's people who do like weird stuff when they sleep well.

So, yeah, I would think, especially like how you mentioned, if you're on a ship, that's a lot of liability. That's scary. Back to the dock. Our object was to reduce the factor of personal attraction in the formation of the groups. In a few days, we divided the boys into two groups and put them in different cabins. Before doing so, we asked each boy informally who his best friends were and then took pains to place the best friends in different groups as far as possible. as everyone knows a group of strangers brought together in some common activity soon acquires an informal and spontaneous kind of organization it comes to look upon some members as leaders divides up duties adopts unwritten norms of behavior and develops an espree decor our boys followed this pattern as they shared a series of experiences in each group the boys pooled their efforts organized duties and divided

up tasks and work and play different individuals assumed different responsibilities one boy excelled in cooking another led in athletics although not all not at sending in anyone's skill others sorry others though not outstanding in anyone's skill could be counted on to pitch in and do their level best in anything that the group attempted one or two seemed to disrupt activities to start teasing at the wrong moment or offering useless suggestions I saw I got to see this stuff I got to see all this stuff because I had four kids, you know, so I got to see like the group dynamics

at the birthday parties. I talk about the time many years ago when I was, we had a birthday party while camping at the beach and this particular beach there's a river. And so we're camping at the beach, there's a river and I started doing all these events and challenges and marching and all these,

yeah, contests with all the kids and I split them into two squads and they were competing. It's basically like, this experiment. Yeah, yeah. But what I remember the most about it is within 15 minutes, you can see like, oh,

this person doesn't care and this person's looking to get out of work and this person wants to win everything. Like the personalities are so clear. Yeah. And just like a seal platoon. Yeah. In a seal platoon, there's a guy trying to get out of work. There's a guy wants to win everything.

There's a guy that cares if he wins. Guys, it's just so clear. Yeah. A few boys consistently had good suggestions and showed ability to coordinate efforts of others in carrying them through. Within a few days, one person had proved himself more resourceful. and skilled than the rest. Thus, rather quickly, a leader and lieutenants emerged.

Some boys sifted toward the bottom of the heap while others jockeyed for higher positions. This is 11, 10 or so it was 11 and 12 year old boys. And they're doing what human beings do. They're doing what human beings do. And the weird thing about this is, and this is a bad thing about the military. The bad thing about the military is,

you might not be a good, leader a good natural leader but you went to college and you went to officer candidate school or you went to the academy and you become an officer and now you're in charge and you don't have really any good leadership skills and now you're running things now if you're humble enough to be like ah you know what i'm not the best leader and i'm going to lean on this guy over here and this person can help me out you'll be fine yeah but if you're like i'm the leader yeah yep not going to be good We watched these developments closely and rated the boys' relative positions in the group not only on the basis of our own observations, but also by informal sounding of the boys' opinions

as to who got things started, who got things done, who could be counted on to support the group activities. As the group became an organization, the boys coined nicknames. The big, blonde, hearty leader of one group was dubbed Babyface by his admiring followers. A boy with a rather long head became lemon head. Each group developed its own jargon, special jokes, secrets, and special ways of performing tasks. One group, after killing a snake near a place where it had gone to swim, named the place Macasson Creek, and thereafter preferred this swimming hole to any other, though there were better ones nearby.

Isn't it just weird how just predictable these dynamics are? Oh, yeah. And yet we don't pay attention to them so often and we don't pay attention to them in ourselves Back to the doc wayward members who failed to do things right or who did not contribute their bit to the common effort found themselves receiving the silent treatment Ridicule or even threats each group selected symbols and a name and they put these on their caps and t-shirts So that's kind of interesting The 1954 camp was conducted in Oklahoma near a famous hideaway of Jesse James

called Robbers Cave. The two groups of boys at this camp named themselves the rattlers and the Eagles. And it does say these guys would just come up with these names on their own. Like they weren't told, hey, come up with a name. They would just, they just wanted to be a gang. Other conclusions on every phase of the study

were based on a variety of observations rather than on any single method. For example, we advised a game to test the boys' evaluations of one another. Before an important baseball game, we set up a target board for the boys to throw out on the pretense of making practice for the game more interesting. There were no marks on the front of the board for the boys to judge objectively how close the ball came to a bull's eye,

but unknown to them, the board was wired to flashing lights behind so that an observer could see, exactly where the ball hit. We found that the boys consistently overestimated the performances by the most highly regarded members of their group and underestimated the scores

of those of low social standing. So there's a whole bunch of biases that start to come out in this whole study and that's one of them. You're watching the person that you like and you give them a little extra credit. Yeah, yeah. You're watching the person that you don't like

and you take credit away from them, regardless of how good they did. And that was a, that's another thing that we covered on the underground. Reactive devaluation. Psychological phenomenon that if I don't like you,

I don't like, you present your ideas and I devalue everything that you say. Yeah, yeah. And in this case, I don't really like you. You throw baseball, eh, wasn't that good of a shot.

Yeah. The attitudes of group members were even more dramatically illustrated during a cookout in the woods. And this is, The two groups are still split up into two groups, because you're going to see eventually these groups come together. The staff supplied the boys with unprepared food and let them cook it themselves.

One boy promptly started to build a fire asking for help in getting wood. Another attack the raw hamburger to make patties. Others prepared a place to put buns, relishes and the like. Two mixed soft drinks from flavoring and sugar. One boy stood around without helping was told, or one boy who stood around without helping was told by the others to get to it. It's before they could take it after it. shortly the fire was blazing and the cook had hamburgers sizzling by the way he's 11 year old kids pretty cool

two boys distributed them as rapidly as rapidly as they became edible soon it was time for the watermelon a low-ranking member of the group took a knife and started toward the melon some of the boys protested the most highly regarded boy in the group took over the knife saying you guys who yell the loudest, get yours last. Group dynamics. When the two groups in camp had developed group organization and spirit, we proceeded to the experimental studies of intergroup relations. So that's a key component.

So they take the groups and they keep them separate. They don't even know that there's other groups in camp. And there's 11 boys in each group. So you have these two groups, 11 boys. They keep them separate for a number of days so they can kind of form. relationships and form an identity, a group identity, and all that. The groups had no previous encountered. Indeed, in the 1954 camp at Robbers Cave, the two groups came in separate buses and were

kept apart while each group acquired a group feeling. Our working hypothesis was that when the two groups have conflicting aims, i.e. when one can achieve its ends only at the expense of the other, their members will become hostile to each other, even though the groups are composed of normal, well, adjusted individuals. There is a corollary to this assumption which we will consider later. To produce friction between the groups of boys, we arranged a tournament of games, baseball, touch football, tug of war, treasure hunt, and so on. The tournament started in a spirit of good sportsmanship. But as it progressed, good feeling soon evaporated. The members of each group

began to call their rivals stinkers, sneaks, and cheaters. They refuse to have anything more to do with the individuals in the opposing group. Isn't that crazy? These are all, by the way, these are a bunch of like, what, white, 10-year-old Protestant kids, all the same. They're all the same kids. And yet they're calling each other snakes, cheaters, stinkers. The boys in the 1949 camp turned against buddies whom they had chosen as best friends when they first arrived at camp. A large person of the boys in each group gave negative ratings to all the boys in the other.

The rival groups made threatening posters and planned raids, collecting secret hordes of green apples for ammunition. Brother, this is at a summer camp. In the robbers cave camp, the Eagles, after a defeat in a tournament game, burned a banner left behind by the Rattlers. the next morning, the Rattlers seized the Eagles flag when they arrived on the athletic field. From that time on, name-calling scuffles and raids were the rule of the day. Bro, this is like full freaking Lord of the Flies activity

about to go down. Within each group, of course, solidarity increased. And you know, this is why I say this is so pertinent for all of us today because you're sitting there. I'm sitting here. And we're constantly getting recruited into different groups. You know what I mean?

And we instinctively want to be a part of a group. So when the recruiting comes around, we're kind of on board for it. Kind of like naturally just on board for it. Because what are you going to do? Be part of the other team? When this team's kind of reaching out to me, making me feel good about things,

they want me to be a part of their crew. There were changes. One group deposed its leader because he could not take it in the context. in the contest with the adversary. Another group overnight made something of a hero of a big boy who had previously been regarded as a bully.

Man, when the bully's on your side, he's your favorite. But morale and cooperativeness within the group became stronger. It is noteworthy that this heightening of cooperativeness and general democratic behavior did not carry over to the group's relations with other groups. So you become tighter and, stronger and work together better as a team and as you get better as a team you become more

antagonistic to the other teams around you yeah does this sound familiar at all oh yeah so they end up with these issues and I you know started off with that quote where the guys are like you have to be physically restrained from beating the other team up like that's some pent-up aggression I'm trying to get unleashed we now turn to the other side of the problem how can two groups in conflict be brought into harmony. We first undertook to test the theory that pleasant social contacts between members of conflicting groups will reduce friction between them. In the 1954 camp, we brought the hostile rattlers and eagles together for social events,

going to the movies, eating in the same dining room and so on. But far from reducing conflict, these situations only served as opportunities for the rival groups to berate. and attack each other. In the dining hall line, they shoved each other aside, and the group that lost the contest for the head of the line shouted ladies first at the winner.

They threw paper, food, and vile names at each other at the tables. An eagle bumped by a ratler was admonished by his fellow eagles to brush the dirt off his clothes. We then return. So just when you take two people, Now, I will say, and if we aren't around each other, if you're isolated from another group, the hostilities are just going to grow. Conflict gets created in a vacuum, and it grows in a vacuum. And sometimes when you bring groups together, there's a level of humanization that takes place where it's like, oh, you know, you got to work with this guy.

But the key thing that I just said is you got to work with them. Like, you don't like this person. They don't like you, but you have to get, you have to do something together. you know you figure out a way to make it work and that's a lot different than hey we're just going to put you in a social environment that's why when people talk about you know at eslam front when I talk about building relationships you know and when I used to a few years ago I'd be well how do you build relationships and people yeah take someone to coffee take them to lunch and they bring up these things that I'm not saying they're bad but they're not as beneficial

as actually doing work together yeah doing work together is how you build relationships doing something positive, making progress, figuring out a plan. And then, of course, it comes down to the components of relationship, trustless, and respect, influence, and care. And you've got to give those things away. But those things, listening to what you have to say compared to I bought you a cup of coffee. Giving you trust compared to I bought you a burger at lunch. You know what I'm just, it's not the same thing.

It's a nice gesture. But it doesn't truly build relationships. So now you take that to a group dynamic. Yeah. And you just put the two groups together that have animosity. That's just an opportunity for fights. Yeah. Yeah.

There's, I mean, now that you're kind of running down this, there's a lot of like movies and shows and stuff that kind of base the show or the episode of the movie on kind of, kind of on that right there, which is, I mean, not so much this experiment, but the idea that like two people, they can hate each other or two groups they can hate each other, but you put them together working together and then they wind up kind of liking each other because, you know, they humanize each other. They realized, hey, we're more alike that we are different, all this stuff. Like American History X was the example. I told you last time where, you know, the neo-Nazi guy were the black guy,

they had to do laundry, whatever. They end up being friends. Yeah, because they had a mutual goal. Exactly right. Yeah, they got to do that laundry. There was a movie called Band of the Hand. You ever, have you heard of that? It was like a 1980s team.

I have heard of that, but I don't remember anything about it. That seems like a movie that you would actually watch. Because it has real like Lord of the Flies like under. Fives. Yeah, vibes. Exactly right. It's essentially

they get these criminal teenagers that are criminal, like criminals, gang members, like blah, blah, all this stuff, drug dealer, you know, all this sudden they throw them all, they just randomly grab them

and instead of like giving them a trial or what, they just throw them in the freaking swamp. Eat like they hurt them up, throw them in the swamp. And they're just, they don't know what's going on at all. They're just in their normal clothes

that they got picked up with and they're in the swamp. Wait, are they criminals or no? Yeah, they're criminals. They got arrested for whatever. Okay. So they're arrested. but why are they in normal clothes?

Because it's not like they take their clothes and put them in a uniform or something like that. Oh, okay, they got arrested. All right, you're going in the swamp. Yeah, like one guy has a suit because he's this high-end drug dealer and he's wearing that same. Anyway, throw them all the swamp

and then this randomly, they have no idea what's going to randomly this survivalist dude. He's kind of like, kind of the leader, you know, the chaperone or whatever. He comes in and he's just giving them little bits of information, but he's more just leading by doing.

And they're all like, what are we doing it? You know, anyway, it just starts like that. And then they wind. up going through this whole thing and they're all like bros at the end kind of a thing you know rallied around the same goal kind of a same exact thing it's like that's actually a pretty cool movie but um you kind of see all these or whatever but they and you know in the movie or whatever especially american history acts i think that i kind of felt that i was like yeah i could see why like

they don't like each other kind of or the one guy didn't like but it seemed like the black guy knew knew the deal like hey we got to work because he had been working there for a while so he was kind of like, hey, we got to work here together, so we might as well not fight kind of. You could tell that was his attitude. And then slowly the way they wrote it, it was like, oh, I could see how that would work right there. You know, first it just starts with one little thing, one like taking down to the guard, and then one little smirk after the guy's joke.

And then after then, finally one word, then they're joking. You know, it's like that sequence seems understandable after a while because of what you're saying, like that one goal is kind of that primary thing. And after a while, you kind of find a way to make it work. And then you realize the way that it works is for you to freaking let go of all this dumb other stuff. You know? Yeah. Yep.

It continues on here. We then return to the corollary of our assumption about the creation of conflict. Just as competition generates friction, working in a common endeavor should promote harmony. It seemed to us considering group relations in the everyday world that there were, that where harmony between groups is established, the most decisive factor is the existence of superordinate goals, which have a compelling appeal for both, but which neither could achieve without the other. To test this hypothesis experimentally, we created a series of urgent and natural situations

which challenged our boys. One was a breakdown in the water supply. came into our camp in pipes from a tank about a mile away. We arranged to interrupt it and then called the boys together to inform them of the crisis. Both groups promptly volunteered to search for the water line, search the waterline for trouble. They worked together harmoniously, and before the end of the afternoon, they had located and corrected the difficulty. A similar opportunity offered itself when the boys requested a movie. We told them that the camp could not afford to rent one. The two groups then got together, figured out how much each

group would have to contribute chose the film by a vote and enjoyed the showing together one day the two groups went on an outing at a lake some distance away a large truck was for was to go to town for food but when everyone was hungry and ready to eat it developed that the truck would not start the boys got a rope the same rope they'd used in their acrimonious tug-of-war and all pulled together to start the truck These joint efforts did not immediately dispel hostility. At first, the groups returned to the old bickering and name-calling as soon as the job in hand was finished.

But gradually, the series of cooperative acts reduced friction and conflict. The members of the two groups began to feel more friendly toward each other. For example, a rattler whom the Eagles disliked for his sharp tongue and skill in defeating them became a good egg. the boys stopped shoving in the meal line. They no longer called each other names and sat together at a table. New friendships developed between individuals and groups. This is, you know, I was talking about boot camp.

One of the things that they do at boot camp is you end up with, well, first of all, you get these mutual things that you have to do together. And then you kind of get a common, for lack of a better word, a common enemy, which is the drill instructors. You know, like, oh, here he comes. Like, we got to do this, we got to do that. So you end up with this kind of common enemy

who ends up being a common friend. but in the beginning, it's like, oh, it's us against them, us against the staff. And that forms unity, that forms bonds. And then you absolutely are going to have things that you've got to do if you don't work together. You're not going to be able to make them happen. And so they're doing this perfectly to develop bonds between the people that are going through, for instance, boot camp. In the end, the groups were actively seeking opportunities to mingle, to entertain and treat each other. They decided to hold a joint campfire.

They took turns presenting skits and songs. Members of both groups requested that they go home together on the same bus rather than on separate buses, which they had come. On the way, the bus stopped for refreshments. One group still had five dollars, which they had won as a prize in a contest. They decided to spend this sum on refreshments. On their own initiative, they invited their former rivals to be their guests for malted milks.

So, very powerful. Our interviews with the boys confirmed this change. From choosing their best friends almost exclusively in their own group, many of them shifted to listing boys in the other group as best friends. They were glad to have a second chance to rate boys in the other group, some of them remarking that they had changed their minds since the first rating after the tournament. Indeed, they had new ratings were largely favorable. Efforts to reduce friction and prejudice between groups in our society.

have usually followed rather different methods. Much attention has been giving to bringing members of hostile groups together socially to communicating accurate and favorable information about one group to the other and bringing the leaders of the groups together to enlist their influence. So that's kind of a common thing, right?

We just need to get together and talk to them. Let's talk to them and figure it out. And that might not be the best idea. As everyone knows, such measures sometimes reduce introduce intergroup tensions and sometimes do not. Social contacts, as our experiments demonstrated, may only serve as occasions for intensifying conflicts.

Favorable information about a dislike group may be ignored or reinterpreted to fit stereotype notions about the group. Leaders cannot act without regard for the prevailing temper in their own groups. Man, people are freaking crazy right now, dude. That's so classic. That's freaking America right now. Hey, anything that that person says, I hate them. And I hate what they're saying.

What are limited, and this is kind of how it closes out, what are limited experiments have shown is that the possibilities for achieving harmony are greatly enhanced when groups are brought together to work toward common ends. This is why at war. This is why when you get attacked at Pearl Harbor, the whole country unifies. Yeah. Because you got to remember before Pearl Harbor, the country was not, unified behind going to war at all.

Some people thought we should go to war. Some people thought we should not go to war. There was people that were American Nazis that were like, why would we go to war with Germany? I'm German. Like, this isn't happening. Oh, and by the way, the Nazis don't like black people and Jews. I don't like black people and Jews. I'm not going to, why would we fight them?

That was happening. And then all of a sudden you get attacked and it was like, well, no, we're all on board. It's way different. Yeah, way different. Oh, yeah. What our limited experiments have shown is that the possibilities for achieving harmony are greatly enhanced when groups are brought together to work toward common end. Then favorable information about a dislike group is seen in a new light, and leaders are in position to take bolder steps towards cooperation. In short, hostility gives way when groups pull together to achieve overriding goals that are real and compelling.

all concerned. So you're real and compelled. Yep. You, when you don't have a unified goal, and let's face it, like for instance, in America right now, many, many, many people are in a pretty good spot. Financially, they have a house, they have an iPhone, they have food on the table, they have the, like, they have a pretty good situation. So what do they do?

They start looking around saying, well, who can I attack? And what group can I be a part of? And then, oh, I'm part of this group. We're going to attack another group. And that's what ends up happening. Because we don't have this big unified, overarching World War II or September 11th. Yeah. Well, what you're saying, you know, they, they had this theory a while ago where it's like, yeah, we have all these little problems everywhere that turn it into big problems, whatever, is because the whole reason behind that is because all our problems are solved.

And that's what these real and compelling problems are no longer in a, existence. So, so you know how you say like, oh yeah, what you just said, where, you know, they're looking around whose group can I be able to, the thing is the funny thing is, and it is interesting at the very least, is that's what we're all doing anyway, regardless of the circumstance, we're all doing that. So when all these real and compelling problems start to become less and less, we're still doing that. We're still doing the whole, who's the enemy? Who can I join? Who are we fighting? What are we doing? You know, like, everyone's still doing that, just on different levels now. The big problems, the real and, you know, compelling problem, they're gone.

Now you have less real, less compelling, but we still got that operating system or whether you call it operating system or not. We're still doing that. So you create problems. Exactly right. I'll put it this way. We start to look harder and harder for them and find them because they're ever, they're going to be there. And I know it feels like that we're creating the problems, but more than anything, we're looking for like, we're looking for them. Yeah, I was going to say it's real easy.

Look, you're, let's say you got a good job. You're making enough money. Your rent's paid. You got your vehicle. You got food on the table, right? That's you. Cool. But you still have that little, that little instinct for war, for fighting and also the instinct to be a part of a gang.

But you're living your life and you're not really sure what that is. But if I'm over here and I'm like, hey, I got a cause for you. Yeah. Let me present you with a car. cause and a team that you can be a part of today. And then you have something to fight for. You have something to go online

wherever. And freaking retweet some dumb shit. You know what I mean? You think about the efforts. How much time? I mean, you know what I'm saying? Like you can you can and what's weird too is when you

if you look at Twitter X or Instagram or whatever people are mad at mad about stuff. It's a, it's a person, like they're mad at a bot. Yeah. Or whatever. Or they're mad at whatever.

Yeah. Right. They're mad at an image. Yeah. They're mad at a statement. But they're like literally mad because you can say because it's made them emotional to the point where they've fired off this thing. Yeah.

And you're like, hey dude. Like, what are you doing? Yeah. That's what you're going to get mad about. That's going to put your, that's where you invest your emotional anger and your emotional efforts is to being mad at this person that posted a picture of something. thing that you were told by your group leader. Yeah.

Was bad? And you're on board for that. The answer to that question is yes. Yes. And this document that talks about this experiment, like, man, that it illustrates why this is the case. You know how like there's all these examples. All these are different examples. Big, small, whatever.

They're all just different examples of the same exact thing. So like, you know, you know, cults, right? You know, cult. Right. Yeah. Where you typically, pretty much every time, reliably will say you can't just grab someone and put them in your cult. The normal person would be like, bro, I'm not doing that dumb cult. It's like obviously dumb.

And if you look into any kind of cult, who do they target? They target the person who's kind of drifting. They don't know. They're not part of a team. They don't know their common enemy. They don't know anything. A normal person has their family. That's their team.

They got their friends. That's part of their team. They got their values. They got their freaking and they're consistent. They're stable. They're secure with a lot of stuff in every. day life. Cult people don't look for people like that. They look for the people without that. So they can provide all that stuff. And that's exactly what they do when they bring them in.

Totally what they do. It's us against them. This is the real way. The other way. Look, you've been tricked. They did this to you. Those enemies. You know, it's like that kind of stuff. So it's all the same stuff. All of this stuff. But if we don't have it, if we don't have like that common enemy, the, you know, we're not part of a tribe. We don't feel like we're part of a tribe or whatever. that's when we're so susceptible to just gravitating towards kind of the first tribe we can be a part of. Yeah. And freaking assigning enemy status to the first enemy we can identify. It's essentially it.

But it's always been like that. Yeah. And there's also a real easy sort of bridge, which is, you know, there's a book called Extreme Ownership. Yeah, yeah. Which is the problems that are in my life are because of me. And I'm the one that has to fix them. But part of that attractiveness is being able to say, hey, the problems in your life are because of you.

They're because of these people over here. It's all part of that process. And then you wanted to hear that. You were looking for a reason why this happened to you. You're looking around like, dude, my life isn't that good. And I come in and say, it's not your fault. It's this fault over here. It's these people's fault.

That's why you're being held down. We need to fight against them. You're on board. Because look, if you can take a 10-year-old or 11-year-old, and that's their natural human instincts, is to just get on board with this team and fight the enemy. By the way, these are kids that you've never met before that are pretty much the same as you.

So now you take it in America where there's differences between us, all kinds of differences. And you say, oh, this is my team, this is your team, let's fight. Yeah. So pay attention, man. Pay attention to what's making you angry. Pay attention to what's, who's leading you? Yep.

Right? Because there is someone leading you. Where are they leading you? Why are they leading you? What do they want? What benefits do they get out of it? Are they benevolent? Are they maybe have some other motives behind what they're doing?

It's very possible. So just watch out. I'm gonna watch out for this kind of thing. There's one more thing that I wanted to talk about from this experiment. And it was a pretty cool graph or chart, which I'd never seen this type of chart before. And it clued me into a way of judging people, which is very interesting. So basically they plot out each one of the kids, each one of the boys with a little circle. And then depending how many decisions they made, they

they went higher and higher up this graph. So it goes from zero to whatever, 10. And depending on how many decisions you made, you're higher up the graph. Because think about it, when you're in a little group of 10 people, there's someone that's going to make more decisions and some people that make less decisions. So you immediately have leaders and follows. And I never, it's so obvious to think of that. It's so obvious to think, well, yeah, how would you, how do you know who's a leader?

Oh, well, the leaders are making decisions. And so they actually would plot out, they'd pay attention, they'd plot out where these people ended up. And in some groups, guess what? You end up with, oh, this person's making three or four decisions. This other person's making four or five decisions. This person's making three or four decisions. So you end up with a consensus group. And then the other thing that they identify in this particular type of graph is that they have a one-way friendship, a one-way friendship and reciprocated friendship. So a reciprocated friendship is indicated with a solid line in this graph And a one-way friendship is is a dash line

Meaning like oh it's pretty obvious you've been around people where it's like oh this person They're not listening to me yeah I if we're gonna go out somewhere we're going to where they want to eat we're watching the movie they want to watch like that's a one-way relationship So what they've in some of these charts they've got these people And and and what you see is some of the charts everyone is everyone is is making decisions and there's lots of two-way relationships. The other end of the spectrum is you have charts where one or two people are making all the decisions. Everyone else is very low on the number of decisions that they make and it's a one-way

relationship. Most of the time, it's a one dictator for lack of a better word that's telling everyone else that's making decisions and imposing the decisions on people. And here's why I'm going into this with a smile on my face is because the groups that perform tasks better are the groups that have more people making decisions and more two-way relationships, which is a just absolute confirmation of what we teach at echelon front, which is decentralized command. I'm not going to make every decision. I don't want to make every decision that people on the front lines can figure out better ways to do things.

And I should be listening as a leader and I should be forming good relationships. And if you do those things, so it's an interesting experiment that you can do yourself with your family, with your people you work with, with your friends. How many decisions are you making? And I have said this before

where I've got a leader that's like maybe a bit of a micromanager and I'll tell them like, Listen, don't make any decisions. Like, when you go to work today, don't make any decisions. Let other people make decisions. And it can be really hard for some people to do that because they're freaking psycho-micromanagers. So, but I think now paying attention to who on the team is making decisions.

Because that's how you can identify, oh, we got Jessica over here. She hasn't made a decision in three days. So she's very low on this decision-making matrix. So she's not really participating in the team. team and that doesn't just hurt Jessica hurts the whole team because we want everyone on the team to be decision makers and leaders and we want to be able to listen to what they have to say and we want two-way communication so this this graph ends up being very informative to me and showed me something visually that I had known

for a long time and I as much as it's so obvious to think of leadership as the number of decisions that you're making, it's interesting to see it graphically. And that being said as well, the other part of this that would have to become like a 3D graph, I guess at some point, is like, what is the weight of decisions that are getting made? Because I think ideally what you have is a leader at the, a leader that is making very few decisions, but they're very important decisions. And they're taking input. Those decisions are based on the, you know, hundreds of other decisions that are getting made that lead to a point where it's like okay now we've got to either go left or we're going to go right and people look around and now it's that one most experienced

leader and also the leader that's been listening the most because now he has the best perspective from everybody else that he's gathered up and now he can decide oh we're either going left or we're going right but he's listened and knows it can make the best decision so and a very interesting way to think about things And that's what we got. I think some good lessons here. Beware of your biases. Right.

We all have biases. And we have instincts. We have some group mentality instincts that are just inherent being a human. So watch out for those. I would say I always had a rebellious streak in me. And I think that rebellious streak was enhanced and exacerbated by the music. that I grew up listening to and so I always felt like no nothing part of your shit I always had that little thing in me yeah and I think it was beneficial which is weird

too because I'm sure someone's like well what the hell do you join the military for it was like actually for me joining the military was an act of rebellion against against everything because everybody else was going to college or getting a job and carrying on with normal lives there was nothing than normal where I grew up in the sticks of oh I'm gonna leave and go be a freaking commando in the Navy that was not a normal thing to do but I think that it's good to have that little instinct I still I still I still have that little instinct of well we'll do this we'll do this our way we'll do this my way like my way meaning like DIY there's a whole a whole like kind of freaking punk rock um

ethos of doing it myself. Like, we're going to do it our way. Because back in the day, like, who's going to pay for the recording studio? We are. Who's going to design the record cover? We are. Who's going to put the, who's going to make posters for us? We are.

We're doing everything. We're doing ourselves. We don't want your money. We're going to do it ourselves. And I always kind of add that in me. And it still, you know, it still seeps out jaco publishing, right? Why is that? Jock Fuel.

Where's that coming from? Wouldn't it be easier just to take money from some big company that, you know, oh, yeah, that'd be easier. But we can do it ourselves and then we can do it the way we want to do it. So I always had that in me. And I think it's very beneficial. And I think that it's something to help anybody that's exposed to the world at the current time. What are you being exposed to? what group is trying to adopt you.

Trying to bring you in. Because this group's trying to adopt you every single day. Yes. And if you're not paying attention, your instinct is let's be part of that group. Let's have a common enemy. Oh, let's blame the other group, by the way. So these are things we've got to watch out for.

Don't allow yourself open up your mind and beware of your own biases. Competition can create anima. also and so you have to be aware of that and you can use competition look in the business world competition gets used all the time inside of inside of a business so if I've got two sales teams oh put them against each other and so you can do more and it's fun I have two sales people I put them against each other two production lines that's you can make more widgets like those are things that you can do you got to be

careful though because you can take that a little bit too far and all of a sudden you've got animosity so be careful that be careful of scarcity because That's what they did. You've noticed in that experiment. How are we going to create conflict? Scarcity. The minute we say, not everyone can have dinner. Not everyone can watch the movie.

The minute you put scarcity in, it becomes my team against your team. So be careful that because it creates animosity. It creates animosity. Look, that's another natural instinct we have. Think of how much is driven by I look at Echo and he's got a freaking Cadillac escalade and I get mad about it. Right? And those are two reactions.

Some people go, oh yeah, Echo's got a Cadillac escalate. Hell yeah. I can't wait until I can get one one day. I'm going to work hard. And some people go, oh, he's got an escalade. He screwed people over for that money. And I'm mad at you about it. Oh, and you're hurting the environment because you got a big V8.

Does that have a V8 engine in it? Yeah. So, you know, you got a big gas guzzling engine. You're ruining the environment. You're ruining, by the way, you're ruining my environment. in my world. So now I hate you even more. Or I could say, oh man, that's awesome.

Oh, and he's got a good catalytic converter on there. You know what I'm saying? There's just like how you frame things up. You've got to be careful of. And to unify a team, of course, you've got to work towards a common goal. And where this can be challenging inside of an organization is, you've got to set up, you've got to be aware that there can be different subordinate goals inside of an organization,

meaning you're trying to sell the widget that your team produces, and Fred over here is trying to sell the widget that his team. We're both working the same company. But you're like looking for his client data to see if you can offer him the other widget. Like that that can happen. So I need to make sure that even though you and Fred have subordinate goals that you're both trying to achieve, I need to remind you of the superordinate goal, right? the superordinate goal, the unified strategic goal so that you're both,

hey listen, even if, look, we might sell Echo's widget, we might sell Fred's. Bottom line is we brought that customer into our customer base, and that's going to help us in the long run, and we all win. Oh, okay. So I might have to remind people of that. Remember that good reciprocal relationships and decentralized commander, what win? Reciprocal relationships.

And again, this is talking about freaking 10-year-old kids doing cooking dinner. And even with 10-year-old kids, good reciprocal relationships. And you still have a leader. The leader still shines. The leader still steps up, but he listens and gives him trust and allows people to influence. So that's good. What that means is we have to build good relationships and take care of each other so that we don't devolve into the eagle. and the rattlers, which is very easy to do.

It's very instinctive. We have to watch out for it. It's a good reminder, for sure. And this can sound kind of more negative than I mean it to be, but I do feel like, to a certain degree, we don't have a choice. Maybe individually we do for sure, but we have less of a choice than it might feel like sometimes,

because, you know, you ever heard the conspiracy theory? Or maybe it's not even a conspiracy. Just this idea that like, ooh, some buddy, you know, the powers that be want to keep you distracted from the big picture, whatever that may be, then XYZ is the big picture. Everyone has their theory or whatever. In a way, that kind of seems true in a lot of ways. And reasonable as far as like why that would happen and whatever,

because like think about it. If you can control people's minds. And I'm not saying like the kind of, you know, with. If you can just get them focused on this thing over here instead of that thing over there. Yeah. And then you can win. With that, you can let them. And you know these instincts like all these instincts are,

we know that. So let's influence them in this way that gives rise to this instinct taking hold. It's not going to take hold. Right. You're calling this a conspiracy theory. This is just what's happening every day. This is normal life. But it.

This is what we have to watch out for. Exactly. Right, but through, but didn't you just say you don't know if you have a choice? I'm going to say, I'm going to say you're wrong. No, individually you have a choice. Individually have a choice, yes. But also collectively, like, how can you break people out of this mold? What makes it so hard is that when people are part of that gang, bruh, it's hard to talk to them.

And that's exactly what I mean. So you need something for real, for real to take them out of the mold. And so you talk about bombing of Pearl Harbor, 9-11, like these things, but they do snap people kind of back into, but here's the thing. I don't know if it's more so than it snaps people out of like some thing. I think even like, it's okay, Palmay Pearl Harbor, everybody kind of unifies. That's not snapping anyone in or out of anything. All that is is just adjusting the common goal.

So, and the common enemy as well. So like before that, it was like, we don't really have any real, like a real one. You know, you can say or, you know, whatever the problem is, if they don't feel it for real for themselves for real. It's kind of like, cool, that's what they say on the news. Cool, that's what my neighbor said. That's all it is, nothing more. But you get a for real attack. Oh, clear, clear and compelling or whatever, however they put it. So all it is, it's all the same stuff, except for different levels of it. So if the different level can be big enough that it really affects the individual, then they'll change naturally for sure, and the group changes. But as an

individual, sure, you keep your eyes open. Oh, I see what you're doing. Be more educated. Be more into like the real things and how real things work for sure as an individual, but collectively, it's way harder. Oh, it's definitely hard because you're going against the human being instinct that they've had since they were born, which is I'm going to be a part of this group. Once I'm part of this group, I don't like you anymore. Yeah. Pay attention.

Pay attention to what you're doing. Pay attention to what group you're buying into. Pay attention to the emotions that you're having. Pay attention to the time that you're spending on an infinite scroll. Pay attention. Pay attention to overcome the instincts that you naturally have. to get mad at someone that's from a different group. Pay attention to that.

Pay attention to where that comes from. Pay attention to the emotional investment that you put into a group. Why are you putting it into a group? Isn't there something more productive you could be doing besides getting emotional and passionate about something that you've been convinced as important when in reality it's not important and it's not going to matter and it's not going to change anything and what you could do is improve your world. your family, your job, your community, your health.

You could have an impact on all those things. Instead, you're mad about some other thing that you have almost no impact on whatsoever. Yeah, a lot of times no impact. Yeah, if not no impact. So just be careful. Don't evolve. Pay attention.

So that's what we're doing. All right. Speaking of pay attention, we got to pay attention. To our health, I just mentioned that. Which means we need some good fuel. It's true. I recommend Strongly recommend

Hey joccofuel.com We got a bunch of really awesome Stuff for you Fuel to put in your body We got everything from greens Which by the way we're number one greens Number one protein At vitamin shop

Which is kind of cool Yeah Those are Astute Buyers You know these are people that are in the game So Check out the greens

Check out The protein We got ready to drink protein We got everything that you need We got everything that you need Joint Warfare Super krill We got everything that you need

We just launched fish oil Because there was a high demand signal For fish oil So that's another highly beneficial thing And magnesium Again there's big demand signal Right now for magnesium And if you want the clean

magnesium check it out Joccofuel.com We got you We're available there We're also available at Wawa Vitamin Shop GNC military commissaries Afees Hanifers dash stores in Maryland, Maryland, Wakefern, Shoprite, H.E.B. Down in Tehaz.

Meyer up in the Midwest. Harris, Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, shields. Small gyms everywhere. Wegmans, by the way, in PA and the surrounding areas. That's where you can get it. Check it out. Junko Fuel. If you have a gym, like I have a gym. If you have a jiu-jitsu gym, I have a jihad gym. If you have a Crosford gym, I have a Crosford Gym. My crosswood gym is on standby right now. It's under construction. But check it out if you want to sell stuff there or if you want your gym owner to sell the stuff there,

have them email JF Sales at joccofuel.com. Get the good stuff. So there you go. Also, if you need clothing for your gang, go to origin USA.com and get the clothing of freedoms gang because that's what we got there. Because we don't have stuff that's made in a, sweat shop by 12 year old slaves, which is what's happening in a lot of the world.

So we don't do that. All of our stuff is 100% made in America. And the material that it's made with is 100% from America. So that's what we're doing. OriginUSA.com. If you need jeans, if you need boots, if you need a jihitsugee, if you need rash guard, if you need workout gear, if you need hunt gear. Basically, what you need, we got.

OriginUSA.com, check it up. That's what we're doing. Also, Jocco store called Jocco store. Well, on our path to excellence, discipline, freedom, the whole thing. If you want to represent on that path, discipline equals freedom, you go to jocco store.com. This is where you can get the stuff. Not on Amazon. Sorry to say.

Hey, look, I buy stuff off Amazon. I'm down for the car. I get it. But none of the discipline equals freedom stuff is on Amazon. Yeah. And if you buy it from Amazon, you're buying it from somebody probably overseas, maybe in China or something like this. who was like, ooh, Navy SEAL, they sell stuff. And then they, like, print it.

A lot of times not even, some stuff is not even spelled correctly, by the way. Fran, I'm not joking. That's what you're buying. It's not from the real source at all. Not even close. Not good. No. So that's on you, but it, I find it, well, I find it incumbent upon myself to let people know.

Because not, I can't expect everybody to know that. It's true. You get it from jocco store.com. It's the only place. Just when equals freedom, good, all these, all these things that, you know, when you want to represent, you can represent. Check. Not to mention the short locker,

which is a new design every month. People seem to like this one. The new one is interesting. I saw it. What? The new shirt. In the wild, by the way. The new new one.

I saw the one that looked like it's a donut one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sugar-coated. Yes. So the next one, April, didn't come out yet. It comes out on the first. It's interesting. What's, give me a hint?

Put it this way. It goes, it's in the same vein and on the same vibe as this whole being on a team. Oh. You know, that whole thing. Look into it. Nonetheless, called the short locker. New design every month. This subscription scenario.

It's on Jocco store. So that's where you can get that. Check. Also, if you need steak, which you most likely do, go to primalbeef.com or go to Colorado craftbeef.com and get yourself some steak. This is the good stuff, man. This is the good stuff. It's you can you will you will enjoy every freaking bite and this is coming from significant experience because believe me, I'm getting my steak on. So check it out.

Colorado craftbeef.com primalbeef.com awesome companies, awesome people making awesome stakes also subscribe to the podcast. Also jocco underground.com. This is the kind of thing that we covered today that we cover on the underground, jocco underground.com. and they're adjacent. There's a lot of lessons to be learned. So if you want to support that, go to jocco underground.com. I feel like the underground is one of these things

that's like a, sure, we can talk about whatever we want kind of a thing, but it's kind of the thing you tune into like every, well, it's every week, but it's like you tune into for like good guidance on life. Like if you have like questions, like okay, you go through like, look, most of us we know how to get from A to B,

to get it. But if we're going to A to be, and more efficient, more useful, helpful. You know, if you're pursuing success, this kind of thing. If you want to go A, B, C, D, all the way to Z, you know, this is a good guide. It's like that kind of life advice, I would say. I would agree. Yeah.

Also, we got a YouTube channel, subscribe to him. Also, psychological warfare. Also, flipsidecanvus.com, Dakota Meyer, making cool stuff that right hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books about leadership. I've written a book about, well, about laundry mats. Sure. final spin. I've written a bunch of kids books. I've written a book called Mikey and the Dragon's Overcoming Fear for Kids and Adults. And I've written the Way of the Warrior

Kid series. So check those out. Also, echelonfront.com. We solve problems through leadership. We understand group dynamics. We understand group conflict. This is what we do. And when you have a problem inside your organization. The problem is from leadership. So we will help you with that. Go to eschlamfront.com for details. We also have a bunch of live events that you can come to as well. We also have an online training platform called the Extreme Ownership Academy.

Go to extreme ownership.com. If you need to improve your interaction with groups, if you need to improve your relationships with your team, if you need to learn about decentralized command and how to make your team, your family work better and be better, go to extreme ownership.com. Take some of the courses we've got on there. And if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, Gold Star Families, check out. Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee.

She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org. On top of that, we got Micah Fink up in Montana. He's got Heroes and Horses.org taking vets up into the. mountains so they can find their souls again and then Jimmy May he's got an organization called beyond the brotherhood.org helping special operations guys namely seals get through the transition into the civilian sector and if you want to connect with us for me I'm at jocco.com I'm also on social media infinite scrolls algorithms I'm at jocco will incoos that echo charles just be

careful because these are basically platforms for you to be inducted into a group of filled with hatred so just watch out don't let it happen and when we have to fight for real we are thankful that our military personnel are out there all over the world to fight and defend us and our way of lives not online but on the battlefield so thanks to all of you and also thanks to our police law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers correctional Officers Border Patrol Secret Service, as well as all other first responders.

Thanks to you all as well for defending and protecting us here at home. And everyone else out there, please pay attention. Pay attention. Pay attention because there's these mind pirates wandering around and they're trying to steal your brain. Know your biases. Understand what you're doing. Understand the instincts that you have.

can be taken advantage of if you're not careful. Look at the conflict that you're getting engaged in. What is it for? What is it for? Be a good human. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.