Jocko Podcast - 454: Support Your Team and You ALL Will Overcome. With EOD Tech. Nick Kush

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

Nick Kush, EOD, Explosive Ordnance Technician. Job: identify and dispose of enemy explosives and I.E.Ds. Battle of Ramadi.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 454 with Echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echow. Good evening. All day, murderous bursts of machine gun fire hammered our position, shattering windows and impacting interior walls, each round with the violence and kinetic energy of a sledgehammer wielded at full force. Some of the incoming rounds were armor piercing and punched through the thick concrete of the low wall surrounding the rooftop.

All our element of seals, EOD bomb, technicians and Iraqi soldiers could do under such accurate enemy fire was hit the deck and try not to get our head shot off. Rounds snapped inches above us and shards of glass and concrete fragments rained down everywhere. Despite the onslaught, we held our position in the large four-story apartment building. When the fury of the attack subsided, our seal snipers returned fire with devastating effect. The onslaught of heavy enemy fire continued frequently throughout the day with periods of intense violence and periods of calm. As the day faded and the sun dipped below the horizon, the attacks diminished. Gunfire and explosion subsided with the darkness, an eerie quiet

descended upon Ramadi, broken only by the evening call to prayer that echoed across the dusty rooftops. our seal platoon and Iraqi soldiers packed our gear and prepared to depart. Remembering the vulnerability of the single exit door to the street, our two EOD bomb technicians went to work, peering over the second-story balcony through their night vision goggles. They scanned the area around the exit door and the surrounding street littered with trash and potholes in some places scarred by the craters of previous IED blasts. but something was out of place. Something looked different than when they had scanned the area in the early morning darkness before dawn.

An otherwise unobtrusive item lay against the building wall, only feet from the exit door, covered with a plastic tarp. Just a tiny sliver of a smooth cylindrical object peaked out from under the edge of the tarp. something looks suspicious in EOD operator relayed. It was most unwelcome news as the stairway to the street was our only easy means of departure. Our EOD operators carefully went to work. Through meticulous investigation, they uncovered two 130 millimeter rocket projectiles whose nose cones were packed with SIMTECs, a plastic explosive. Had they not discovered the device,

And had we triggered it, the massive explosion and deadly shrapnel could have wiped out half of our platoon. We couldn't leave this IED here to kill other U.S. soldiers, Marines, or innocent Iraqi civilians. So EOD carefully sent their own explosive charge on it to set it off or blow it in place where it lay. And that right there is an excerpt from the book called Extreme Ownership, which was written by myself and my brother. Laif Babin, and that section was actually written by Laif, and you hear the mention of EOD, explosive ordinance disposal technicians, and these men were an integral part of the platoon and an integral part of tasking a bruiser. And in that particular case, as you heard, the EOD text identified a grave threat of an IED,

just outside an overwatch position, a tactic that had just been used against some of our brothers from the 3-8 Marines a few days earlier. So one of our EOD techs volunteered to go and place a charge on that IED and blow it up. And what that means is that EOD tech going external, exposing himself to enemy attackers, who are usually overwatching those IEDs, exposing himself to that IED,

exposing himself to secondary and tertiary IDs that could be there. And maybe that obvious one was just a decoy. So it's a huge risk to go out and blow that thing in place. But the alternative was to leave the ID, IED there. And perhaps let someone else deal with it or perhaps let someone else get killed by it. so in order to protect Charlie Platoon and in order to protect all the soldiers and Marines who might be wounded or killed by that IED our EOD tech went out there and disarmed it himself and that is one story of countless similar stories where our EOD technicians save the lives of the seals from tasking to Brouser and also save the lives of countless soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines from the Ready First Brigade.

And it's an honor to have that EOD technician. My brother from Task Unit Bruiser, Nick Cush, here with us tonight to share his experiences and lessons learned. Nick, thanks for joining us, man. Thanks for having me, Jocko. Good to see, Echo. You too. Yeah, I never really wanted that job of EOD.

I'm sure we'll get into why you wanted it at some point. Super sketchy and a ton of risk. But that's where you ended up. And before we get to where, how you ended up there, let's just talk about growing up. Where'd you come from? Southern California. Where in Southern California?

So grew up, I was born in Pomona. And then I grew up for, I don't know, it was a living in Laverne. so just outside, in LA County. Until I was about eight, nine years old. Grandpa was getting sick. And we ended up moving up in the high desert for a few years, middle way of high school.

Parents divorced, midway through high school, ended up moving back down to Orange County where my dad was at and sent, wrote out the rest of high school. Like what years were you down there for high school? So, I mean, I graduated in 95, so it was like, you know, 92, 93 time frame.

So it was like your junior, sophomore, junior, senior or something like that? Freshman, sophomore, yeah. Yeah. and that's like discovered surfing. So barely made it through high school because of surfing. Yeah. So that's when you started surfing?

Yeah. Well, when I was a kid, when we, you know, go do some beach, you know, stuff, but nobody was teaching me surfing or, you know, it was just a wild man in the water at, you know, five years old. So, and then when I got back closer to the coast,

then, yeah, it just consumed me. So you're surfing seven days a week? Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Before first period and then on the weekends. Were you on the surf team? No. No, I was a degenerate.

Did they have surf team? Not at our school. But like, you know, you're talking like, you know, I was about 25 minutes away from the beach. You're talking like Newport, Huntington, those guys had surf teams. Yeah. Not my high school. When I tell people about surf team in California, then the Scholastic Surf Association. Oh, yeah, it's huge. Yeah.

People from the rest of the country are like, are you serious? Yeah. Very serious. Yeah, it was really big. It started. I remember it was called the NSSA was a big, yeah. Yeah. And when kids are.

are part of the surf team, they go surfing before school and they get to skip first period. Yeah, well, it's part of first period. Yeah, you get like a two hour sash. Yeah, at a pretty good spot. Which is freaking awesome. Yeah. So when you were going surfing,

you weren't doing it as part of the organized school scenario. No. How did you get down to the beach? Well, drive. You know, it's like we go, well, once I get turned 16, then it was easy, but like other guys that were older than me, then it's like, yeah, we're all going surfing. Sweet, who's driving.

And then, you know, once I got my own car, you know, I barely made it through high school because of it. Did you skate too or no? No, it was mostly surfing. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. The, if you can, it seems like skating is if you don't have the opportunity to surf. Right.

No offense to skaters, I get it. Yeah. You know, I get it. But if you can surf. Surf. Surf. Yeah. It was kind of the, what did your, what did your dad do?

So my dad, I'd say he was in finance, but he, you know, he did. didn't go to school long, but he's really good with numbers. And he worked as a financial controller for auto car big car dealerships in Southern California for years. I mean, it was like he always worked at, you know, Toyota, Nissan, and he was just a big financial control. He still, you know, I remember when I was a kid, he would do weird stuff on, on sheets. He would just have numbers, numbers.

And I thought it was just, I didn't think anything of it, but looking back on it, it's like, man, that's some weird Goodwill-Hawin stuff he's doing there. I don't know. But he was no rhyme or reason. There was no plus signs or there was no, you know, it was like, so it was just really strange. But he was really good with numbers. He still is. You know, he'll be 79 this year.

And, yeah, I mean, he's a, he's wicked smart. And you had brothers, two brothers? Yeah, an older brother and a younger brother. We're all eight years apart. And as you can assume, I'm the middle child. Wait, you're all eight years apart? Yeah. Damn.

Yeah. So wait, that's 16 years worth of kids, I guess? Yeah. 16? Yeah. Were you close to them? Was it too, like, distant? Well, we're closer now.

Yeah. You know, because, I mean, it's like my older brother would babysit me. And so I'd be, you know, more of a annoying for him than everything else. You know, it wasn't cool. So, but it was fun. It was neat, though, because when my older brother was, you know, 16 and my younger brother was born, there was actually, like, they were actually pretty close when he was a baby, you know, and he had the maturity to kind of, to really big brother him in that sense.

And then, yeah, we all kind of drifted apart, but then we got, we've, over the past couple years, we've been, I think, closest we've ever been. So, yeah, that's really cool. Did you, when you're, so you're going to high school, you're basically just trying to surf as much as you possibly can. Did you have any kind of, like, plan for life? No. No. No. I mean, I started like, I would join the golf team. You know, I was like, well, this is what's everybody's doing. Why not? You know, so they could surf and then we'd play golf for free. You know, yeah. So it was funny because it was, I grew up in Orange County. and Tiger Woods also grew up in Orange County and I think he played for Whittier or Cyprus so one of the high schools that played our high school so I was on the JV team we're all like burnouts you know we suck but then there's the varsity team and then Tiger comes and he had just won some you know amateur event

and he's on the driving range and our school's playing his school and us JV guys are like whatever this guy you know and he smashed us you know so you know it's pretty funny so as you're getting into your senior year you don't do you know what you're going to do when you graduate high school? No like I you know my brother would was going, he was going to school at UCSD, you know, down here in San Diego. And I was kind of optimistic that I would come down here and that, you know, and sort of

just work and, you know, live with him. And, and, but that didn't end up working out because he was then getting ready to transfer to the East Coast. And then so, yeah, I tried the junior college route for a little bit, a couple of months, but surfing got in the way of that. And then started waiting tables and working at, I was working at Angel Stadium. I was actually selling souvenirs at, you know, and, uh, you know, it was a couple of original California Angel Stadium.

Yeah. And how long did you do that before you noticed that there might be a military path? When they called me in April of 1996 and it was like, hey, we understand that you recently graduated high school, you know, because I had talked to a Marine recruiter, you know, with a buddy, because you go in with buddies. You're like, yeah, let's do this. And then he went and I didn't. But, yeah.

And then in April, it was, yeah, Navy recruiter called. And I thought, yeah, fuck, you know. Dude, so he had like a freaking contact list or something? Yes, yeah, like I could visit at the high school. You know, I mean, I was coming up on a year that I'd already graduated. And I was just working at, you know, a restaurant. I was working at Island's restaurant in Braya, California. Waiting tables.

And, yeah, I called and that's where I thought, well, I mean, I need a job. And the Navy's around the water. So I could keep surfing. So this works. You know, I will have some conversations. And then before I knew it, I was in MEPs down here in San Diego about a month later. You know. What kind of job did he offer you?

So the way it goes, the way it went back then, and I'm not sure if it still goes that way now. You know, you take a, I took a practice ASFAB in the recruiting office and then went down and took the ASFAB. And then like the next day you come back and they had a list of like five or six schools. And I had like a couple that I had identified just based on some limited research, but those weren't offered. It was like, there was like five or six different schools. And all of them were the A school, the trade school was located in Great Lakes, Illinois. except one. It was at Virginia Beach.

And all I saw was Beach. That one. I'm not going to go to Great Lakes, even for two months. I'm going to go to the beach. And so that's how I picked Operation Splash List A school in Virginia Beach. I was heavily influenced because I surfed as a kid growing up in Maine. And I also skated because there wasn't always waves. But when I was trying to figure out what branch of special operations I wanted to go into as a young surfing.

kid, I saw the seal teams were either stationed in Virginia Beach, Virginia, or San Diego, California. Done and done. Yeah. That was it. And of course, the water side appealed to me. And I wanted to be like a waterborne commando because I surfed. But yeah, that played a huge role.

And it's true, too. Yeah. Like, it's either that, I guess the Coast Guard, you're kind of guaranteed to get stationed on the ocean. I bet the coast guard has the most ocean. Am I wrong? They probably do. But the Coast Guard, later on in my career, I worked with some Coast Guard guys that were actually

stationed in southern Costa Rica and we're surfing like they had the best kept secret surfing in Golfito you know it was right on the on the border between Panama and Costa Rica they're gonna be pissed you're putting this word out this is he they tell you this 22 years ago you know so yeah secrets out man but yeah that that so so yeah that was never I never even consider that and I didn't know much about special operations I mean I had you know two uncles that were in the army my grandfather was in the army he flew he flew during the war He had a significant plane crash in 1943.

I'm just getting a little bit more schooled up on that as I get older. So that was kind of like my military influence. And my influence, you know, as a kid growing up were these uncles, you know, kind of looking out after me and, you know, beating the shit out of me. And, you know, and so it was a cool, it was a cool. That portion of the childhood was great. And that was really cool. So you end up, what did you say, OSA school? Yeah.

OASA school operations. And I looked at it. I was like, well, if you flip it, it's special operations. It's kind of, like, it'll morph into something. then, you know. Did you surf when you were in Virginia Beach? Yeah. Yeah, I was there in the winter of 90.

I went to boot camp in late 96. I was in Virginia Beach, the winner of like 96, 97. So you get done with A school. Where do you go? So they selected me out of A school based on my academic performance, which is odd because I was not an academic, high performer in high school, but because my academic performance, they selected me to go up to the Bureau of Naval Personnel when it used to be in D.C. So I went to Bupers to work under the OS Detailers as basically like an admin dude, an admin kid.

So I went up there and I ended up there for nine months. I was selected to go to a pre-commissioned destroyer based out of San Diego out of 32nd Street. But while I was there, right down the hall was Perz 401 Delta, which is where Diver, Swick, EOD, seal detailers. And so they had some scruffs there, some guys that were out of A school, got stationed there before they went to their respected school. We're all the same age. We're all, you know, trying to find our way. So I ended up making friends with them. And then I put a SWIC package in.

And then the detailers that I worked for were a little pissed because they wanted me to be an OS, you know, in the fleet. But I put a SWIC package in and then went to SWIC school. Yeah, after that. Do you know when SWIC school started? Well, so the class I was in, we classed up. I went to Sears School in January of 98, and then right after that, I went to like, it used to be PTRNR because they would pull this together.

And then I think my class started in February of 98, and it was what class 24. So the original history, that made the history, what the good portion of like significant history for the brown water black berets was in Vietnam, but it even goes back further to World War II is like where they kind of, you know, carry their homage and they, you know,

they pay homage to those guys that kind of were driving the boat. and inserting, you know, elements and things like that. So you could do kind of the rewind for what year they started. The center started SWIC class, but we were, you know, SWIC class 24. And I think we just last year we had our SWIC class 124 graduate. I think that's what it was. So special warfare combatant crewmen.

So when I got in the teams, those, it wasn't a, it wasn't a rating. And guys would basically go, you could be a normal dude in the fleet. and then you just get, basically get stationed at a special boat team for two years or four years. Some guys, of course, would like figure out a way to stay there for longer. But it wasn't an official kind of thing. Yeah, it wasn't a Navy enlisted code, an NIC code yet. It was just like a, you just get stationed there. And so we kind of would have random dudes when we'd go on deployment.

There'd be, again, they'd be, they'd do the workup and stuff. But they didn't have, it wasn't their life. It wasn't their job. Right. And so it wasn't until the Navy figured out. which is a really smart thing to figure out, you want to have people that know how to drive your boats, driving your boats.

Yeah, well, and then the person, the camaraderie that they would have to form with their respective, like seal platoons and, you know, assets that they were working with

to be able to kind of basically be a little bit closer to speaking commando than just not. Yeah. And you could get lucky and you could get unlucky. I went on a, we went to do a VBSS one time over in the Gulf. And we literally, we didn't have any special boat unit with us.

And so we were going to use the ship's ribs. And we did. We used the ship's ribs. But we literally ask the guys, hey, does anyone here know how to drive a boat like good? And there was a freaking 19 year old kid from Florida that grew up. And he's like, hey, I grew up in the key or what I wasn't the keys, but it was like, you know, whatever. I grew up in such and such. I've been driving a boat every day of my life.

And I'm called on the ribs. And the kid was freaking awesome. Like he pulled alongside, you know, it's hard to drive that boat. And he just did it freaking awesome. And I hope he went to, I told him 10 times, bro, what you need to be doing. Because he was just a normal fleet dude, you know, a year and a half in. And he was pumped. But that's a job that you need to learn how to do.

And going back to the early 90s, you'd have some boat drivers that just, they just weren't that good. They hadn't been doing it for very long. And so they kind of suck. So it was good that they eventually professionalized it and made it into a job that you can stay in your whole career and be a damn boat driver. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's what you ended up doing. How was the SWIC school? How long was it? I think at the time it was, I think it was only 10 weeks. I'm not sure how long it was now, but I think it was 10 or, I know it was 12 weeks, 12 weeks long. And we had, oh man, I think we had about like 36 guys in our class, somewhere around there in the mid 30s. And you know, surprisingly enough, like we lost guys.

It was a lot of the stuff was water stuff was being in the water, you know, because like, we still did, you know, a lot of stuff in the combat training tank and, and, and, and, Yeah. Yeah, if you're going to be driving around little boats all the time all over the ocean, it's probably pretty smart to be good in the ocean, good in the water. Yeah. Did you get, do you get a job like, hey, you're going to be a driver, you're going to be a gunner, you're going to be a comms guy.

Do they do that? They do typically not when you graduate. You know, they, it was, you know, at the time it was like you're either going west coast, east coast, or you're going to Mississippi. You know, it's either coastal, coastal or riverine. And so they will, you know, just like the military does, will send you where they need you. And so I ended up staying on the West Coast, which is great.

And it was you either had, you know, two to, two or three different types of boats that you're going to be assigned to. But typically a new guy is going to be a like navigator. You're going to learn the radar systems. But at the same time, you also have to do all the, all the, all the groundwork on the boat and help the engineer and understand the engines. Because it's all, it's doing all that stuff because we didn't have a mechanic team. We were the mechanics, you know, which is like, was really cool, you know,

21, 20 years old to be learning, you know, how to change an oil on a turbo diesel, you know, you know, uh, jet boat. You know, it's like, okay, this is, I mean, this is what we're doing. And so to learn, you know, when you go to basically put the boat in, do whatever training or the op or whatever and then pull the boat out, you're there for another two hours doing post-ops on the boats, being putting them away, you know, rents and clean and doing all the post-op checklist and everything like that. So, so you basically learn to be a navigator, kind of progressed to become, you know, an engineer. And then, eventually, eventually a coxon, you know, boat driver, and then like, it was like LPO, and then, you know, our OIC was at the time, we didn't have officers.

It was seal officers that would come over as far as command level, but we would have fleet officers that would be like an OIC of a boat detachment. Okay. But then our platoon, our debt chief, or detachment chief, we usually, has been around for a minute. We used to have guys, you know, when SBU 26, when Panama was up and we had a lot of riverine guys come from there, came up. And so that's where we had some of the mentorship there. So I imagine you're pretty freaking stoked.

Like, because you were sitting in an office in D.C. And now you're just out in San Diego freaking gunning it on a rib. Yeah. Yeah, it was about the 11 meter. So you're a 11 meter. So you're stoked. Yeah, it was great. And then, you know, you got on the first detachment and cycled through to Paycom or Guam

first deployment with Seal Team 5. You know, so that was April, October of 99. Is that where you met? Because you knew Tony when you showed up, right? That was where I first met Tony. Yeah. So when that story comes around, it's hilarious. So what was your first deployment?

Did you do an exercise? Yeah, well, it was, I mean, it was the, it was the pre-war. Not much had been going on. You know, it was like, you know, so you get over to Guam. You know, I've ever been to Guam, especially in the 90s when there was nothing really going on. But it was just sort of you were that contingent force for the region. And so, yeah. A lot of training.

You know, we go up north of Saipan and do shooting up at the island called FDM. So that was where we would do shoots. And, yeah, train OTBs over the beach stuff, inserts and just, you know, get proficient and, you know, marry up with the platoon and build rapport and just do training stuff. And then we, you know, we did some stuff in Singapore. We didn't exercise in Singapore. There was a big exercise, you know, with Korea and Japan and, you know, in the PACOM region during that time. And yeah.

Do you surf? Oh, yeah. I was going to say. Because when you said, you know, it's basically. the 90s and what we did was surf. Oh, yeah. Because you're in Guam. Oh, yeah.

And there's a freaking great waves. Yeah, I actually met a Coast Guard guy there surfing. I've still friends with them today. I mean, it's 25 years ago. You know, we're out there in the water surfing. So he was station out there, Coast Guard. Surfers. Yeah.

Yeah. No, that's a, that's a legitimate thing. Yeah. So you go on that deployment, you meet Tony. How well did you, did you like hang out with them at all? I mean, there were some, I mean, you could rewind the clocks. I mean, there were some legends on that platoon. They were all younger guys.

But, yeah. So, I mean, it was, like met Tony and then yeah it was like did some stuff and then that was about it and came back and then you know kind of wash rinse repeat and got into another detachment and then deployed what was the next one that was June of 20 to 2000 and that was to Bahrain so we were basically not we were going over there with team three and we were doing the mission set was a response to go up to Kuwait and then do VBSS on tankers leaving Iraq yeah I was talking about how before we hit

record about how you and I missed each other on a bunch of time frames. But so, for instance, I left the West Coast in 1998 to go to East Coast. In 2000, I was in Bahrain. I was on the JFK, but I was at the platoon. But we were there for the millennium. So like from whatever, the fall of 99 until the spring of 2000. So you relieve me there, probably with the team three guys that showed up after.

Yeah. So again, just missed each other. So were you guys doing VBSS? Yeah, a lot. We had a lot of live ones. Yeah, a lot of real ones, yeah. I mean, those are a haul, man, because we would fly the ribs up. And then, if you remember, PCs, you know, patrol craft.

Patrol, yeah, whatever was. Hurricane. Yeah. They all had storm names. Hurricane cyclone. Yeah. Come on. It's awesome.

And so, yeah. Were you doing them off the PCs? No, so we would. Remember the PCs? They made these, so they made these boats, Echo Charles. And they're like, this is going to be what seals can operate on. Yeah. You know, they held like eight.

They were a ship. They were like a small, tiny ship. But a ship, you see what I'm saying? The difference between like a boat and a ship, you know what a Navy ship looks like. Well, these were like tiny, tiny, tiny, they look like tiny ships. Think of her staff was like 35 or 40 guys. It wasn't, there wasn't, it wasn't that big. And there was room for eight seals on them.

Like they had, like the racks or whatever for eight. Yeah, but seals. But dude stopped it because they kept getting sick. Oh, did? Freakening nar. Yeah. So you guys were doing some. at this point we were a driver yet on the seat yeah I was yeah so I was yeah and so we were

driving and yeah so we were doing ship takedowns yeah and I mean a real ship takedowns you know like the ships would be laden down to where you wouldn't need a ladder it's very rare that there was ever a hook and ladder it's usually like the little jacob's ladder just you just step across because those things were all the way down yeah yeah we did a bunch of those two on that same deployment that I was just talking about and we made a little uh like a almost like a water ski ladder. Yeah. We welded it up.

Yeah. And it was just like hook on the side. Yeah. It was four rungs or something like that. Yeah. It kind of looks like it looks like a Jacob's ladder off of a helo. And it's, yeah, you just, like a pool ladder. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's pretty good time. Yeah. And then, so in October of 2000, we were in Kuwait when the USS Cole was hit. Oh. And so that was like, you know, the amphibious readiness group, Alpha. So we would have, you know, there would be a seal plate. and then a boat detachment that was assigned to a ship, you know, basically readiness group.

And so those guys had initially responded to it in Yemen. And when those guys, when they got the coal out, the coal was finally moving, they sent us down with our respective guys with our platoon. And we were in UAE for about six weeks and we were doing ship security because no other, none of the ships of any of the readiness groups were pulling into refuel or resupply. So they would come into Jabbal Ali And so we were just doing ship security for six weeks living in Dubai Do you get to lock and load your weapon? Yeah, yeah, I was shot

I was actually we were we were escort to ship out and there was another boat coming I actually was like first time I almost unloaded a 50 cow on a bone I mean I don't like I ever actually I never have it I was like we're about to shoot this guy But you've ever seen 50 cow rounds when they hit the water they go everywhere So it was written the beach is like that way and it's like oh man like this guy better stop because this is going to be bad. But it ended up finding, ended up stopping.

But it was like, that's what we were doing, was ship security because of what happened, how successful that, that, that, the execution of the U.S.

goal was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they still use that kind of as the story, I think, up in a Navy boot camp.

They should. Yeah. The example, and they run that hole. When I went through boot camp, we didn't have anything like this big simulator that there's like a fake ship

being flooded and all that stuff. That's what they do now. But I think a lot of it's based on the coal. Yeah. I mean, that was really unexpected. did it and like I mean the lives that got lost and the guys are just on the other side of the bulkhead and no I didn't know freaking sketch so then no we come home from that deployment

what's next I was in the training cell for a couple months and then um there was an opportunity to go down to the boat detachment that was um basically like permanently assigned to naval special warfare unit four in Puerto Rico when when Roosevelt roads was still open and so it's like that seems like a pretty cool opportunity and so went down to Puerto Rico was down there for just shy of, I don't know, just shy of three years. So March of 2001. And then I'm sitting on the quarterdeck on September 11th, 2001. And then we see them in the news. There's, you know, news feed on the, on the quarter deck. Were you like, were you stand and watch or something? No, no, like we were prepping because we were supposed to go to South America for,

a foreign internal defense block with some guys down in South America. Because that's kind of what we were doing. We would have the East Coast teams, you know, they would deploy down basically as part of a central and South America response. And so same kind of thing as Guam. You know, no war going on. This is pre-9-11. And that's what we were doing. So we were Puerto Rico.

Oh, yeah, that place dialed. Yeah. And then so we were getting ready to go to South America for a FID mission and on the 12th. And then that happened. And so yeah, they, they, um, sucks out to cancel the trip. So everything gets locked down. Yeah, everything changed. And then at what point do you train?

transition over to EOD. And how did you hear about EOD? So I had first heard about EOD when I was in boot camp. And then when I was at, you know, in D.C, the D. Taylor, the Master Chief Detailer, EOD retailer, we just, you can't go to learn a little bit more. I mean, like the CLD Taylor kind of funny. I remember these names.

The CLD retailer was Master Chief Philpott. The EOD detailer was Mass Chief Torres. And then the Boat Guy detailer was Major Chief Sam Brown. And it was just those are those are the guys that you at, as an E1, this is my first look, you know, at this world. And so I had thrown around leaving the boat community, man, because it's like, I was young and I was already getting my ass kicked because you, I mean, you've been on those boats, man, these sea states, and then if you don't time it, right, I mean, it's brutal, man.

Even if you're not a boat driver, you're not jumping up and down to be on these boats for a long period of time. They're brutal, especially you're doing 100, 200, 200 nautical mile transits. So I'm watching the war kickoff in March of 2003 into Iraq. And the base had just gotten bracked. And so they were closing roads about roads. And so it's like, do you go to the East Coast as a bokeye or do I go back to the West Coast as a bokeye? And I was like, I'm going to miss this whole thing.

You know, and I was wrong. I mean, bokeyes definitely had their pivotal part in Iraq later on. but then I just called the SWIC Detailer. At the time, his name was Mike Wurlman. And I told him, I said, look, this is what I'm looking at doing. And he was awesome about it. He said, look, you've done your minimum activity tour? He's like, absolutely.

You want to go EOD at 100%. Like, I'll totally support it and endorse it. If it doesn't work out, you're more than welcome to come back. He's like, we'll shut that up. So it's like, I wasn't looking for an insurance thing, but that was nice. Because, I mean, EOD schools are good 12 months. And then they'd stopped. They didn't want any more ECSA.

and I was in East six at the time. So then, yeah, so we shut down the Unit 4 that fall of 2003. And then I transferred out to Dive school in January of 2004. Did you know any EOD guys prior to? So on the base there at, or on our compound at Unit 4, there was a short detachment, an EOD short detachment. And so EODs got short detachments that will be like base response, ordinance response, go VACUS was a live shooting range.

And so they would respond to unexploct an ordinance or anything like that. So they were like basically permanently stationed there for a three-year ride. And so I was assigned to them as basically as a prospective student in training. You know, like a scruff for about three months. And so those were the first introduction I got really to you to guys there. Did you like, bro, when I was a kid and I like saw machine guns, I was like, hell yeah, that's kind of what I want.

That's kind of what I want to be doing. Did you look at like a guy in a bomb suit and a pair of pliers walking up to a freaking And bomb and be like, hell yeah. No, it was funny because like there was, there was this, oh, at East Coast, I think he was a Team 8 senior chief that had come down with his platoon. And when I was throwing around basically leaving SWIC, I'd asked him, I'd kind of, you know, I go to these older guys and look for some mentorship.

So there was no bias. And I, you know, I was throwing around the idea of either going to EOD score or going to Buds. And I'm just, yeah, I was just looking for some snapshot. You've been around, you know, you've been. How old were you at this point? So that would have been 2003. So I guess what?

24 or so you made e6 pretty freaking quick dude five and a half years I got capped e6 oh you got cap to check yeah so I was serving a role as a LPO by the way I got cap to E5 yeah so it's it's all good what is cap command advancement program you didn't actually basically you're doing a really good job and if you're doing a really good job then but you haven't been promoted then the the commanding officer can just promote you it happens to one person. So it's like he was obviously kicking ass because to get capped is they take one person from the whole command. So it's a very, well, I don't say like it's an honor, but it's definitely recognition that you've been doing really good. Yeah. Yeah. Because everyone else has to like take tests and

get promoted, but you're just getting, you know, especially if you're kind of junior like that. Yeah. Yeah. But I was, I was filling the role and I don't, you know, it wasn't like, um, it wasn't like I was going to Medians and I needed to be an E6 or anything like that, but I was filling the role and then it took a lot of I mean it takes a lot of Oh five signatures to buy to go off on a command of advancement. Yeah, yeah. No, that's definitely a clear sign of doing yeah. What's that term we used to say sustained superior performance in the field of excellence like for sure. So it's kind of like skipping a grade in elementary school something like this a little bit a little bit more significant. Yeah, that works. So it sounds different, or it is different than what it sounds.

Like capped sounds like, oh, like you're limited. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's command advancement program. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, we add the extra capped. It's actually, it's your, you're selected for cap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it becomes a verb.

Right, right. Like, like D-O-R, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he got capped. Capped. I got capped. Yeah. I got capped to E-5.

I didn't get capped E-6, but the big job. was I got capped to ensign because I hadn't been to college and I did the Seaman Admiral program and the Seaman Admiral program you just the one that I went through you just became an officer yeah I mean you went to OCS but with no college it's kind of going to it's pretty cool so you know my friends be like dude you got capped and sent which would yeah kind of realistic got capped the E5 quick question just to click when you say E5 E6 E is for enlisted right?

Yes okay and O is for off okay yeah right that's a I thought, but then when you're saying instant and all this, I'm like, I don't know. You're going to do good on the test later. He's in the game. Cool. So what did the seal tell you? The senior chief from team eight or team 10? I mean, it was cool because he was really supportive.

He said, he goes, look, you know, he's like with where we're at, you know, this day and age, it's like, he said, the attrition rate is obviously really high, you know, on both. He's like, you're looking at academically or physically. He said, the way I look at it, he goes, obviously, I'm glad with the decision that I made and the path that, you know, that, you know, that, the. that he took, or whatever year, you know, whatever class, Bud's class he was in. And he said it's just one of those things where when you go and you do the long haul and you go and retire, he goes, the way EOD is going now, the history, the lineage of it has is obviously morphed into what's going on with the war. But there's so much marrying up with the EOD guys in the seal platoons, you're going to do everything

that we are doing. Because at the end of your career, you're just not going to have a Trident on your label. And he goes, if that's not like what's driving you, he goes, I would recommend that. because what I'm seeing is that their jack of all trades is a lot more versed than what I'm seeing with us. He goes, but that's just my opinion. And so I didn't make a decision based on that. I just kind of sat with it and went through it. And I thought that it afforded me the opportunity to do a whole bunch of different things and to really just make my resume as diverse as humanly possible.

Because I knew I was already in it for 20 for at least. And I just wanted to be marketable when I was done. And it didn't matter if I had to try it. or if I, or whatever pin or whatever NEC or whatever I had, I just wanted to be really marketable. And that was how I looked at it. So, but I, but my motivating factor for leaving SWCC is I just wanted to be on the ground in,

in the war because like, unlike you, like when I was a kid, yeah, I mean, I grew up on Rambo and Predator and, you know, this command of movies,

right? Um, but it wasn't the inspiration. My time, my goals were short. I was like, where can I find six to eight foot on a crowded surf? You know?

So that was, that was my job. driving force. And so when I'm watching, you know, the Iraq invasion, just like everybody else in March of 2003, or not like everybody else, but like most people that are not part of the invasion, the initial invasion, it's like, I can't just sit here, man. So, yeah. Was it hard to get the package?

Oh, no, you already said. Yeah. They supported you. Yeah. And EOD was open for people. Yeah. Yeah. There's not that many freaking EOD people, is there?

No, the number ratios, yeah, was really, at the time was really low. And historically, they had only ever allowed E6s. Like you had to do a minimum of activity in the fleet. They wanted regular Navy people with Navy experience, Navy knowledge then to come in. So when I got to dive school, and it went through dive school and then EOD school, they had started to change it.

They're like, you E6s have only got one shot at this. We want E5s, E4 is coming through now. Because they knew, I mean, you know, to their credit, they knew that this was gonna be a sustained thing in the Middle East and the IED threat is gonna be real and so you know we wanted younger guys instead of the older guys that were not going to be able to physically withstand it so is there like a screening like a like a first set phase type thing where you they're really testing your physical that was like 10 weeks of dive school and we lost quite a few

people in dive school is it the same dive school that the regular navy goes through the like so so yeah so there's like you have your open water your scuba so that's what we did first and so like you've got in Navy diver you have your two charlie's you know and then you're one you're one charlie's those are like you learn scuba all the same but then it morphs into for those guys it's going to be hard hat diving we didn't do hard hat diving so we would do scuba and then we went to semi-closed circuit the mark 16 and this is the system at the time I'm not sure if they're even still using that system but the mark 16 is a deep water low magnetic you know signature diamond system and of course you're comfortable in the water so this is kind of

No factor for you. Yeah, it was mostly, there was like awesome pool workouts, you know, but the pool hits. I mean, you know, very similar to, you know, there's a lot of similarities between where they derive things from second phase and there, you know, so similarities. You know, I'll leave it that. So you, Andy Stumpf was a second phase instructor for like three years. He passed four people. Yeah, I believe that. In pool company.

He'd probably still go back today and probably like, I shouldn't have passed it. Yeah. I'm actually, no, he told me, goes, those four people fucking earned it. Oh, that's cool. I was like, I bet they did. That's cool. He had a really, he has a really good stories about pool comp. I need to do an entire podcast with him about just freaking pool comp.

The reactions that people had. He started to be able to read people like what they were doing with their hands. It was like, oh, this person's about to bolt the surface in four, three, two, what button they bolt? Like he just got to reading them. Oh, yeah. I can imagine he was not very fun to have as a. pool comp instructor. So that first 10 weeks is sort of where the weeding out process, that's the word I was looking for. It's like a weeding out process. Yeah, I mean, other than the screener test,

you know, and all that stuff, you know, I mean, but they had to get numbers. But yeah, that was a big, that was that, that phased out in a handful of guys for sure. And then it becomes actual EOD school. Yeah. So it was, I think it was about, yeah, about nine or 10 months. Yeah, 10 months of EOD school. And while we still did, you know, physical, you know, PTs and things like that but it was all it was academic and the scrutiny on academics were brutal you know and here here keep in mind here's this guy that barely made through high school I'm like what I get myself into so you just knuckled down and yeah and you and you had you know and a lot of it was like sensitive material so you you can't study at home oh so you have you know you'd have the school day

or the class day or whatever and then you'd have study study hall you know see the three hours of study all afterwards and it's 10 months of that yeah yeah Why is it in the SEAL teams you get like a half a day of demo training and you're good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to some of those stories later. I'm sure as to why. Exactly. Yeah. Do you get rolled back or anything in that? Some guys that I didn't. You didn't get them back. So you got like if you take a test, you get one chance to do a retest and then you're out and then they assess how far long you were, how close you were and then they would just roll you in another class. Was any of it practical tests? Yeah. It would be like defunds. use this thing. Yeah, well, it would, it would be like if you're in tools and methods, and it was like how to remove a fuse off of like, you know, a Mark 82, you know,

a mechanical fuse. And it's like how you do it remotely, you know, so you're like, and it's a lot of rigging. So you're like doing pullies and stakes and ropes and like tape and all this, you know, just off the wall shit on how to unscrew remotely, you know, a few things like that. Or how to basically take an explosive tool and then render it safe, you know. And then you got, did you have to learn like basically? every type of ordinance that we have in the military?

Yeah, so you learn how to... You would test on it. So you would show up to a test site and it would be like, oh, this landmine. Okay. You know, if you draw pictures of it or whatever, take notes of it and then go back and then research it into the database

that of all U.S. and foreign ordinance, basically that known U.S. foreign ordinance at the time is in this database and then it shows you render safe procedures, blow in place procedures, whatever you can do based on where it's sitting. But you didn't have to memorize that? No, but you start to.

getting looks at things. You're like, oh, I know what I'm going to do here. You know, so. But it's in phases like you would have ground stuff, which would be like landmines and projectiles, and then you go to air stuff where you're going to have missiles and, you know, shit like that. Did they give you like straight up pool comp for ordinance

where you had to walk up and look at something? There's wires everywhere. And it's like a movie where they're like, all right, and the clock is ticking down. Please tell me that you did this because otherwise I'm going to be so disappointed in our EOD community. Not in EOD school because we did that shit of trade that, bro. I know.

We'd have like bombs ticking down. Yeah. You set that stuff on it. I did. Yeah, it did. Because I wanted it that way. In EOD school, it's literally basic fundamentals. It's basically to show that, like, I can present something, that you can be presented

with something. You could not freak out, and you can basically take notes, observe, and then basically take action. And so that was just the very basic fundamentals. Once you get to the EOD commands or the mobile units, then that's where, like, any advanced schools or advanced training going through your, basically your unit level training and then going from there. But you've got to take a lot of the, a lot of the, a lot of,

of that from the older guys, you know, the mentorship. You know, it's like, okay, you get guys that spent time in Bosnia, you know, that was like landmine, you know, landmine time. And so those guys were all trained up on that, so we would get buffed up on that. But, I mean, I got to the EOD command in February of 2005, and IEDs were just really starting to pop off. And there you've got guys that were trained by the British, while they were, you know, stationed in Europe pre-war.

So they've got a lot of influence and a lot of. lot of experience from, perhaps from when they were at war with the IRA, you know, because those guys were like some of the, you know, some of the real pioneers and improvised explosive devices during those, those kind of battles during that time. So do you get your pen when you graduate from EOD school? Yeah, you get a basic pen and then like three years later, then you can basically apply or get recommended to do your senior EOD board. So that's basically the senior board as, you know, to paraphrase it, it's just all tools, tools and procedures. Like how good are you at basically this charge and this scenario and things like that.

And then two years after that, you're eligible for your masterboard. So once you graduate, it's five years before you get the final NEC. Is it a different pin each time? It's just a star that gets added. Oh, okay. Got it. Did you go to jump school? I did.

Yeah. Did you go to Army Airborne jumps school? So I went to Army Airborne as a boat guy in February, 2007. Oh, so you already had that kind of checked off. Yeah. Otherwise, is it in the UD pipeline to get? It is now. At the time, it wasn't.

But they had kind of started it. So, but yeah, so three weeks, Army Airborne. How many, when you're at EOD school, again, I have my own fantasies about EOD school, I guess, right now. But like, are you blowing shit up? Oh, I mean, during demo week, we are doing charges. Yeah.

Yeah. So you're like, you're doing electrical and non-electrical cap work. But you were there for 10 months and there's demo week? There's demo. Well, there's like demo phase. And that was a couple weeks. And then like at the end, you know, do like, I mean, the place out there in Florida,

I mean, the AILA Air Force place is one of the largest bases in the States. And they've got demo range of we're doing a thousand pound shots. So you do like, you know, get to experience a thousand pound, you know, C4 multiple, you know, charges going off. Yeah. So it's sort of like when you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. All right. So then what's next?

You get stationed out. Yeah. So I'm at Moving Unit 3 in February 2005, go through unit level training, you know, EOD training, the EOD portion of it. And then I find out they put me on a basically what. they called an NSW platoon. And that wasn't real common that they had put new EOD guys on NSW platoons. And the training officer at the EOD command pulled me in to have, you know, basically talked me through why they decided to put me on that was because I was a six-year SWIC guy.

And they said, this shouldn't be a problem. Like, do you think it's going to be a problem? I said, no, no, no, at all. So they assigned me to seal team three. And so in August of, of August of 2005, I drove out to an island. Yeah. I met Tatsking a Bruiser. Right on.

Welcome aboard. Yeah. It's 110 degrees. Yeah. And you show up. How do you like it? Well, I walked in. I walked in the facility.

Brian Yarbo was actually the one that told me how to get there. This was a map quest. It's the thing. It's like, you go down this dirt road. All right. So I walk in the facility, you know, desert cambys, name tapes, you know, and it's empty. Nobody's in the building. And everybody was sleeping.

you know, because you guys had already been there for a week and come walking down the hall, this guy and, you know, cargo shorts and a, in a hat. And I'm like, I'm like, that's Tony and a Friday. You know, and he's like, Kush, what are you doing there? I'm like, I'm your idiot guy. He's like, you're in trial of the platoon. I'm like, okay. You know, and Tony and I were in Guam together in 99.

It was the last time I'd seen him, but I was like immediately recognized him. And then, you know, guys start waking up and they're having breakfast. And it's like, I'm like, hey, Tony, like, what is Tony doing? He's like, he's the platoon chief. Oh, all right. So that was how it started with, yeah, team three. Did you ever done eye ads or anything before? No, no.

Damn, dude. I mean, we did. They taught some stuff to us basically in unit level training. And throughout the years, it's gotten a lot better. The EOD moments have basically buffed up a lot of their pre-training before they get cut over. So that is not an issue, you know, for, because that was, that's a legitimate concern. and these guys are really good at EOD stuff, but when we put them in the house,

in a kill house, in the turn of a truck, or basically getting shot at and, you know, have to go online and doing left and right peels or center peels or whatever, you've got to be able to react appropriately. But I did have some weapons fundamentals.

Like I was a boat guy, so I know, you know, I know the weapons systems. So it wasn't that foreign. But yeah, that we were doing walkthroughs and went through an island with you guys. Yeah,

I had a kind of a pivotal moment in my mind It was when I was a platoon commander at Team 7 and we were going to get assigned EOD guys. And I talked to my CEO and I said, hey, sir, why do we need EOD guys? Let's just send two of my guys to an EOD school and have them learn the stuff. And then they can just be good to go. Be a collateral. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's what he said to me. He goes, hey, that's fine, but you actually want someone that is actually focused on this thing. And if it's a collateral for a team guy, they're not going to care about it the way an actual EOD guy is going to care about it. And this made a lot of sense that you want someone that's going to focus and be, that's their job. And so that's why when you guys showed up, I was super stoked.

And I was like, oh, cool. Now we have. And then on that deployment, I had EOD guys that were awesome. And they basically became assaughters for us and then handled EOD as, as their, it was their collateral,

but it was their primary. And they found some IEDs that definitely could have really jacked up, you know, my platoon at that time. We had one that was sitting in a plant, like a plant-planter vase outside of, like the perfect spot where you'd stack

to enter a building. There was an IED in there and there was a curtain in the house. We found it afterwards. There was a curtain with a plug where you plug this thing in. And there was a literal rectangle cut out of the curtain where you could look outside and see if there's people there or not. Yeah, when the SWAT stack was there.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we see this wire and we see the thing. And someone's like, hey, let's see where this goes. And I remember, like, being part of the whatever two or three men people that were walking out, we find it. We're like, oh, it goes to this planner. And so, you know, EOD. So they come over and they start, like, prosecuting it.

and my EOD guy looks at me and he's like, hey, Johnco. I was like, yeah. He goes, you don't have to stand there. And I was like, good call. Yeah. I'm like, I'm out, bro. And so I was super stoked on EOD guys and the value that you guys bring. And so, but I am surprised that you didn't have any eye at experience because you were good at it.

Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I appreciate it. Yeah. But it's, I guess it's really, it's, it was it was we did Tony did really good walk through and when you look at it it just it made sense you know so you know it's like if you're this is happening this way you're gonna go this way

but there was like you know some of the stuff that was kind of that I picked up on was like all right you know hingement and some of these roles right but I mean it it carried forth and not only was land warfare such a pivotal training block for me but we actually used it so you know a year later

so it was really important But I remember when Tony, when I was sitting at the truck and just waiting or like loading up, taking a break. And he comes up to me, he said, hey, you know, for this first run, like, you're not going to go live. Just go through the motions while everybody else is going live. He's like, it's not that we don't trust you. It's that we don't trust you. So I held on. I love that.

I'm like, absolutely. And you just say, yeah, Roger, Jack, you know, no problem. And so we do our first night run. And that actually makes sense. Like, it's not that we don't trust you. Absolutely. It absolutely does. So it wasn't a dig.

It's like, here's your platoon. I totally get it, right? I mean, because, you know, two and a half years ago, there was an incident, you know, that happened with on the East Coast. So I completely, I was like, and I knew about it. And I was completely respected it. So we get, I start going live and everything was good. And then we go nighttime.

And Tony's like, hey, once again, go dry on this one. Don't shoot. Just go through the motions. I'm like, no problem. And so I'm sitting there. We're taking contact. I'm sitting there prone. Trade guy comes up.

He's like, where aren't you shooting? And like, Tony told me not to him. just going dry for this, you know, first couple. And so, but yeah, I mean, it was great just to understand the motions. And it's like what I ended up in down the road was that it's so important that you earn the trust of the guys. You know, for the EOD role and coming over, even, and I learned a lot of it as a boat guy because you're not, you know, you weren't in Bud's class, you know, whatever and

going through Hell Week with whoever. It's like, so you have to, you have that much more of a barrier. You have to earn the trust. You have to, you have, you know, good mediocre to high performance. But it's the trust that really takes the time. the effort. You know, they got to trust you in the house, trust you on the range, and trust you in the bar. And so that's like, that takes time. And so that was like, that was what I adopted was making sure earn the trust of the guys. Because that way, when I made a call, the next year,

whether we were doing personal security detail or we were in the shit in West, you know, in Western in Alambar, they're going to trust me to what I say, get the fuck away from me. So how was, you'd been around NSW, so it wasn't really too much of a, like, like culture shock or anything to show up and yeah no I mean to me was awesome because now instead of being the guy driving the boat watching him climb the ladder I was going to be on the ladder you know so to speak so I was pumped uh you get done with you know so we we go through the whole workup CQC um how is CQC for you phenomenal I loved it yeah I mean CQC and then rolling into when we went to Fort Knox from out that was crucial with the guys

because it's like we're doing live fire, you know, starting from two-man, just two-man pistol room entries and moving through it was great because the guys, yeah, we mesh great, stayed in the house with them, went to, you know, Memphis with the guys on the weekends. I mean, it was great. It was a really, it was fast and it was, I loved it. I mean, it was like, I remember us talk with some of the other new guys was like, man, we, how do we only do this block once before we go on deployment? Like, we should have to do this right before we leave and we had so much fun and learned so much you know and it was very it was all dynamic movements so it was early on and so we were learning as we went and then we went to vortnox then that's where it kind of that's where it turned up you know the game got turned up so

yeah fort knox was a was a pretty awesome trip yeah there was a 10 million rounds of paintball fired and that i believe it yeah yeah there was freaking mayhem out there no i love that and it's funny how it's like that was such a key block that that's where i ended up at the tail end of my career at trade out was in that that urban combat block as a as a cadre um we we wrap up you know work up you kicked ass and work up um you didn't you go to free fall like prior after workup or something like that yeah it was like my pre-deployment leave so yeah i think we was in um we did you know we did like hawthorne we did nellis or not nellis We did Hawthorne Fallon.

And then we were in Nellis. And that was where I first, I remember, I was just telling the story, I think yesterday with Debbie, with Debbie Lee, is that I'm at one of the trucks. And Jake is in a truck behind me. And there's a guy in the turret doing some work. And I was like, hey, Jake, who's that? He's like, oh, he goes, that's Mark Lee. He's like, he just got the platoon. They said he had been with the platoon, but I hadn't seen you guys in a few weeks.

And so that was when I first met Mark. Yeah. Yeah. because Mark, so basically when they decided that our task unit was going to Iraq, they gave us a couple guys from one of the other task units. And Mark was one of the guys that we got. So he was just showing up and he showed up for that trip. It was just like completely in his element. Oh, everybody's winner.

Yeah, everybody's a winner. It was freaking on. So Echo Charles. Yes, sir. Do you know what a boondogel is? Boondoggle. Okay. No.

So boondoggle is a trip where you're basically going to go and waste a bunch of the taxpayers' money. And that's what a boondoggle, like a true boondoggle trip is like, oh, we're going to go to Hawaii and where you have a meeting with, you know, so and so. It's federal funding, not state funding. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what a boondoggle is. And so we get done with our actual unit level training with the training detachment. and now we conduct our own type of training.

And it's what we want to focus on. We know we're going to Iraq, and there's a good training site up at Nellis Air Force Base, which is in very close proximity to Las Vegas. So, and we want to do vehicles. So we ended up setting up this trip, and it wasn't a complete boondoggle because we did a bunch of awesome training.

We did. And as a matter of fact, I was just talking with Ryan Job's parents about how we put him in charge of like a big giant, you know, a hit in the, training area and he was he was you know nervous like I don't know what I'm doing what you do put me in charge of this I remember put him in charge and that's how people step up and learn but not only do we do some awesome training but we also you know had weekends off and so

it was some time some Vegas time was spent and well very well spent and that was the the classic some of these stories about Mark was like I remember coming down and you know we're meeting in whatever time because we're roll out not not on a not but just everyone's going to go and I'm walking like through the damn casino and and freaking Mark Lee from like across the casino he's like hey sir I'm like look at him he's like when are the new Cadillacs coming out because he's over there winning you know and then the everybody's a winner and he was he was really I mean he was a super charismatic dude and funny and it's weird too because he was a new guy but he was just super confident and super cool.

Yeah. And so it wasn't like, like if you're a cocky new guy, yeah, man, it's weird. He had a good, he had a weird balance of like being super confident,

but he was self deprecating enough that he worked. He had a good switch. Yeah. He could really do it. Yeah. I mean, that wasn't something he mastered by any means. He just was a natural master at it.

Yeah. Because you're right. He, he was just like that. Yeah. And of course, he was kind of, you know,

he was like a really good athlete. and that helps. And I was actually telling Ryan's dad that yesterday is he was a good shot at CQC. And so it's hard for an older guy to talk smack to Ryan Job when he just beat him at the freaking headplates. And you're like, well, you know. And so Mark wasn't there for that.

But when he showed up, he was in, you know, he's in good shape. And he's quick, right? So if you like talk some smack to him, you might end up, you know, a little. little bit and listen. Embarrassed. Yeah, you might end up a little bit embarrassed. Now, listen, there's always the the gang foo that can get on leashed. So let's say you're a new guy and some older guy talks some shit to you and you return fire and you get the upper hand, which Mark was pretty witty. Now, you can still catch a beat down, right? You can still have three or four guys

jump on you and you get choked or whatever. Even if you were right, it's still like just because. Yeah. But even if you're right, or you get a little beat down, but you're, but you're shocked. was good, you kind of make the person that's given you a beat down look like a little bit of a fool, right? So Mark was quick, witted enough that you realize pretty quick that if you talk shit to this guy, you're probably going to end up on the receiving end and it's not going to, you're not going to, you're not going to end up looking as cool as you think you are. And so that was kind of the vibe for Mark.

And, yeah, just being super charismatic and funny and sitting playing blackjack. with him when he's talking shit to the dealers like oh they're bringing out they're bringing out the ice man they're trying to ice me right now hey boss they're trying to ice me don't worry about it I got this you know like just freaking just magnetic and um and that's this trip was this trip a complete boondoggle echo charles no it wasn't

there was highly valuable training took place and some good times team building yes some team building took place as well So that's what we were doing. By the time we wrapped up with all that training, man. We put everyone had been in charge of, you know, training missions. Everyone was, we actually, unfortunately, had to, a couple guys didn't make it through the training with Tasking to Bruiser.

We lost a couple guys that didn't, you know, didn't meet the standard. But everyone that did was, was freaking dialed in at this point. No, and I remember when we were at Hawthorne, remember when we were in the bay, and that was like when you had you had first it was it was like I just scased me like the time from I think it was like January you had said that we got word that we were going to be doing PSD and there was a lot of deflated people in the room because it's like man we don't want to do personal security detail we want to get into the fight and I remember he's saying like that's okay because we're going to be the best fucking PSD element out there you know best PSD task unit out there and so we were all in regardless of what it was you know like because like the you know it was a contagious type of leadership that went you know that went that trickled down that we were all in from you know from what I felt like from land warfare you know and we were all in this is who we were you know yeah so it was a a tight crew that's good yeah that's for damn sure yeah but yeah so then go back to that yeah I did free fall was like pre-deployment leave that I'd actually gotten a team three spot that's that the one of the

guys didn't go so yeah that was first was introduced to that yeah um we were So I went on PDSS and I went to Baghdad. And in Baghdad, we were supposed to take the place of the guys that were working with the ICTF, the Iraqi counterterror force and went over there, did like the beginning of the turnover from the guys. I forget what team were they were from that we were going to turn over with.

But it was seals and Green Berets, met them all, a bunch of good dudes. The ICTF was impressive. They all had like M-4s with lasers on them and they had night vision. It was, you know, it was pretty impressive to see what these Iraqi counter-terrorist force was like

and that has a whole story in its own right. But so it looked like we were going on a pretty cool deployment. I forget about the PSD if there was something, you know, at some point where that was still a thing. But by the time I went on PDSS, we were going to Baghdad and we were going to take over that mission and they were doing a lot of direct action missions in and around Baghdad.

And cool, opt tempo. like definitely seemed like it was going to be a cool deployment. Hey, kind of a mark one motto with above average to like, hey, this is going to be a kick-ass deployment, you know? I was stoked to go do that. And then while you guys were on pre-deployment leave,

what happened was they wanted to consolidate the entire West with under, under SEAL Team 3 commanding officer. So the way it was set up, If we went to Baghdad, we would have been like underneath the East Coast Skipper and the West Coast Skipper would have had some East Coast platoon or task unit under his commission. So they just looked at it, looked at it and said, this doesn't even make sense.

So now, Ramadi at that time was, was, was really bad. And for some reason, I had told everyone that before, this was like in the beginning of workup, like, I was like, we're going to Ramadi. And I don't know why I had that feeling. but you guys were on pre-department leave, and the skipper calls me, and he's like, hey, how would you feel about, you know, if you went to Ramadi instead?

And I had to do total poker face, you know, inside. I was like, oh, yeah, the klits. Also, I was like, well, sir, you know, I'm going to need some additional things if I'm going to go over there, and I wanted the, whatever this high-speed internet thing was, and I wanted a couple more people, and I wanted some more radios. Like I, and so I used it all as a big bargaining chip,

and he hooked me up, so that was awesome. But I don't even think we, I don't even know if there was a way to tell you, you guys. I guess we had cell phones. We found out on the flight line. Yeah. Yeah. It was so late.

I think like a couple of the guys had printouts of like what the today's news in Ramadi. Like, whoa. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think we found out that day. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was very late. And then we went, the guys that went early, you know, we were just like sending word back. And I don't, I forget what bird you were on coming over. But there was only probably four or five of us that went over in the first. crew yeah um

to figure out what's going on and so there you go um did you when you were looking at like the news now now you're on the flight line did you realize like how serious it was uh yes and no i mean yes but it was more of uh and this is even retrospect right so it's sometimes hard for me to kind of go this is what i felt at the time but i look back on i was like um yeah um we've been told a couple different things when we land, whatever we're told. You know, as long as we're all doing something together, that was really all that mattered.

Yeah, and remember the Commodore, we were sitting in the Commodore, he had a big speech, and he told us, listen, chances are no one in this room is going to shoot their weapons. He told that to the whole team. He's like, chances are no one's going to shoot their weapons on this deployment. That's just, you know, but you still got to be professional, and, you know, it's still a combat environment, even though you're probably not going to be engaging in one.

And we're all like, okay, cool. you know, fair enough. I was suspect a little bit because I'm reading the Intel and Ramadi's like there's, there's casualties every day in Ramadi. But it was just a matter of like

how much, how creative you could get, everybody could get and whether it would be approved or not, you know, to go and do any of these things. Yeah. So, um, so we show up there.

Mm-hmm. From an EOD perspective, you must have been like, like, what the hell is? I mean, so yeah, from an EOD perspective, it was, this is fucking, this is dangerous. This is going to be hard because we're very urban. This is Fort Knox times a thousand. You know, this is the, the Mount facility times a thousand.

And so it was going to be tough. You know, while I know knowing, oh, well, knowing that all of the personalities and every single person wanted to get into the fight and get, you know, right on, right on the front line. line and fight and fight. My job, my primary job, was to keep the guys safe. You know, and that's what it was from an IED threat. But at the same time, I also had to be filled a role as an assaulter. So there's a switch that you've got to kind of basically know when to turn it from, you know, this left to right as an EOD guy as an assauter because you have to be able to do two man room entries and you have to be able to cover and you have to be able to do an IAD.

And then if there's an IED there, then that weapon's got to get slung and you have to go to work because that right there is a non-biased threat. It's not going to, it's not going to, it's going to, it doesn't discriminate who it's going to kill. So you have to basically go to work. And so that was something that was weighed heavily on my mind, especially when we first got there. There was seven to 10 IEDs a day on Route Michigan, which is a three mile stretch of road.

Yep. Seven to 10 IEDs a day were detonated on that road. Yeah. When you show up there, you just got to be thinking, like, let's not go down. down this road. That was the safest road you could go down. Yeah, but it's just like, man, you're coming. It's like gritting your teeth and wanting to wear, you know, mouth guards, you know,

because this, this guy's suck. Those other like roads going off of that guaranteed. It's not even like, you will hit an IED. Yeah. Going, you take a, take a right turn or a left turn off there. IEDs coming. Yeah. It's like it's, the feeling was it's not, it's a matter of time.

It's not, you know, if it's when, you know, and it's like, okay, you know, we're not going to act invincible, but. We know how to basically egress a vehicle and do combat first aid and make the calls and do an I ad with a down guy, you know, multiple down people. We know how to, you know, basically take care of a vehicle that's down, you know, to basically destroy all the sensitive equipment. We know how to do this. So it was just second nature. So. Um, how about that opt tempo that kind of kicked in?

Yeah. No, it was, it got hot quick. Yeah, it got hot, you know, literally. and then also, you know, in the city. That's right. It did like that temperature. We showed up and it was kind of like we had... It was like monsoon season.

It just freaking temperature just skyrocketed. Yeah. And then, yeah, when we started going out, it was... I remember we first, you know, discovered working with the first of 506th, which is legendary. Man, I still hold that near and dear to my heart to be a part of like the history of Red Currie. And like, it's just, yeah. But yeah, the opt tempo was something else, you know, and then, you know, to be out easy. of the city working that for a little bit and then going back west and then just basically getting more and more dynamic I mean that's at the end of day it's like that's what you're there for it's like cool we have a down day Jim recover and plan you know because we you know we were partitioned into groups to work with you know the jundies the Iraqi army you know you'd be five six main you know teams and everybody which is great because it really showed you know guys on their second and third platoon how to basically be like these all sort of fill these LPO roles and

You know of these small small teams and it was great. Yeah, that was wild. So we had prepared, you know, to function as a task unit and perhaps break into platoons and maybe break into squads. But we ended up having to sort of formulate these elements, these little, these little plused up fire teams. Yeah, plused up fire teams that were going to go out. Because we had, I think we had five, I think we ended up with five or six Iraqi units that we were partnered with. And so therefore you needed an element. and you needed to have, you know, a senior enlisted guy in there. You need to have some kind of an officer in there. Well, that was what we tried to build. A senior enlisted guy, an officer, a machine gunner, a radio guy, an EOD guy, which we only had two. So guess what? Yep. Yeah.

Guess what? Yeah. No, I felt like it was like the parent that was just like, just not this extent. Like, don't spread me out this thing. But, you know, that's what we had to do. Yeah. So. Yeah.

two EOD guys to cover down on six different units, which basically means you're going. Yeah. One of the things that we did, which may or may not have been psychological warfare, but we would have strap hangers come in. Like people from, you know,

from different commands or different units would show up and or leadership or whatever. We call them strap hangers, but people that are not part of Tasking a Bruiser would come in. and you guys put together this freaking like mega EOD brief that was about all the IED threats and you would basically give that brief before the PLO before the before the op order and you you probably gave it like three times to the boys right and then eventually the boys were like hey all right and if there was an update to that brief you'd give the update

yeah but if there was no update you'd be like hey same threats well with that brief was like it would be contingencies because we never planned on like we're going to go to an IED factory. You know, it's not what you do with an assault force, right? You know, you prosecute that with basically like the guys that do prosecute IED flaps. And, but the contingencies would sometimes evolve as the different TTPs of the enemy would evolve. And then that's where we would plug in a little bit different on contingencies. And we would just highlight if that was a change. Because we were always studying any of the significant activity or new TTPs. It who's a game of chess.

You know, like they would do this. We would do that. I mean, it's, that's historic and especially in asymmetrical warfare. That's just the nature of it. It's like the TTP start changing. You have to respond or react and then try to counter that. And so that's where we would then update those briefs on like, okay, new contingency, if this happens or this is what we might see.

But overall, the calls were always the same. It was like this color chem light. If you see one of us take a knee, get the fuck out of the room and like, hey, do you need anything? Don't key up a radio. It's just stuff like, you know, common sense stuff that always stayed the same. Yeah. So yeah, the psychological warfare that I was talking about was if we had one of these strap hangers show up you would you'd give like this full EOD brief that was like a half an hour long that showed twisted vehicles that have been blown up all the different types of IDs and it scared the shit out of people. I just wanted people to appreciate what's going on.

Freaking sketch people out and and it was this is one of the examples I talk about my first appointment to Iraq. We would drive at. Basically the max speed of the Humvee, 60 miles an hour, super tight, close together, totally blacked out. And haul ass. And we got ambushed a few times. And every time we were like through the ambush and never took a, took an RPG round or an ID that hit us. Yeah. Or effective fire. It just wasn't.

Because we would be past it. And then you fast forward to our deployment. And white lights out on the road searching the ground, vehicles going one mile, an hour spaced out. Like, that's just radically different. It's still radically who didn't make any sense as far as like a combat effective, but you're more now defensive and you're playing the reactive game. Because if you do get hit doing 60 miles an hour, that vehicle is probably going to, you know,

depending on how big the charges, now it's going to flip, you know, and now it's just, it's, the idea was let's try to spot it. Cool, we spot it, and then back out and go a different way, you know. Remember that time we came in from south? and we rolled and like whoever was on point might have been Johnny was like hey

there looks like there's something and you guys got out and looked at it and we drove over it and then like two hours later oh yeah dagger found a freaking triple stacked IED in there yeah there was a command wire that was yeah and one of the drivers one of our guys got out

and like and I remember being in the vehicle behind him he got out driver's side to like pick up this one like oh did I like not teach you anything you know you know it's like yeah this is something you know so but and it was funny because that night he was man I'm I'm sorry I'm so dumb and I did that you know but yeah thankfully thankfully we but dagger later found like the full-on yeah on that I don't know

if that was it at that location but it was definitely on that route no bro we got we got we got we got lucky with a lot of that shit um yeah that was like the other time where I think uh we were that cop falcon we had just taken down cop falcon and we're all sitting up there. Most of you dudes are asleep. Chris Kyle's got freaking, what is it, Chef Boy, R.D or something all over his face because he's asleep.

And Dagger was going down and they found an ID right in front of Cop Falcon and Leif is watching. He's got his head over the freaking, the wall watching them prosecute this thing with the digger. And I think you were like, hey dude that might not be the best place to like hang out and watch this happen yeah well and there was uh you know and at the same time what they they had a tendency to do because if they didn't didn't get support from um you know from the

big the forks basically from those guys running that thing and they blew those things up all the time uh not their fault but they were just trying to prosecute suspect devices there was a trench um it would have been just west of where where we set up caught falcon and what they would do is they would burn. I mean, if there was a lot of like, you know, vegetation, they would burn it because what that would do is it would either sympathetically detonate it or it would expose, it would expose any, any ordinance or any IEDs. And they had done a burn and there was a bunch of little, their small little 82 millimeter mortars that were all like wired up, but they had burnt out all the circuitry system and everything and it never detonated, but it was like sitting right there. And yeah,

and we had crossed right over it, you know. It was pretty quick like how he gets hurt. Oh man, that was like in the first two or three weeks I think three or four weeks now We end up putting in cop iron Mm-hmm, which was again there's some with those those operations stand out because they were big You know well they were they were so they were joint they weren't just us, you know and and when I look back on it The remarkable part that we were we because like I said you know from the beginning we were we were all in But what you guys did was

not just going there and like, hey, conventional forces, you're here to support me. It was, what can we do to support you? Because without bragging about it, but it's like we have these capabilities and these assets that we can then support you. What are you guys doing? And then working with them on how we can plug in

to be involved with it. And that's, that was, I think that was such a huge change, not only for that region, but for a lot of part of the war was that all of a sudden, you know, soft guys or want to support us? like that's kind of a new look.

I mean, to be able to work with, and later on, you know, working with like a lot of the Army units where, I mean, like I said, first the 506 and then later on in my career with 10th Mountain, it was just phenomenal. You know, I mean, those are iconic, huge, like in my, in my world that you look up to. And, you know, to be a, you know, a small part of their, their mission was phenomenal.

Yeah, the relationships up and down that crossed the chain of command, you know, was, that's what it's all about. And you had to. You absolutely had to. I mean, you can't go into, you can't just start walking around in someone's battle space. I mean, you will 100% die. You can. You're just not going to get supported.

You're going to get shot. Yeah. There's not going to be a quick reaction force that necessarily help you. Yeah. How much did you go and, like what other EOD elements were there? Did you go talk to dagger? Did you go? Because you would bring back, you had like pictures of IEDs.

Were you getting those from those guys? Yeah, so we would go over and talk to them, and it was funny because I'm trying to, I don't remember the time frame, but Tony and I actually did a ride-along. Yeah. I remember that because I approved it. Yeah, because you had to get. Yeah. And I'm like, dude, I'm okay, boys. And I remember the, the, what you came back when, because it was a Navy, uh, team that had ripped into Ramadi that was doing IED response.

And, uh, you know, I knew a couple of them. And they, you know, I was like, hey, man, we go a ride along. And the response initial was like, so. And I think you asked me. So what happens if you die? And that means that means T. Umadi is down and you, a guy. That's kind of problematic.

And Tony was like, I'll go with him. And because that'll help. Yeah. Well, it was funny because Tony, Tony comes out. We're mounted by the vehicles. This is him and I. And he's like, he goes, hey, they find something like a wire go to a house.

I'm one year two. I'm like, okay. Thank you. Yeah. It was rad riding in the back of those things. Like in the back of dagger. Yeah. Because in a.

Humvee at night night visioned on you're like can't see anything it's just all freaking hunkered down and but riding like I did rides in the back of dagger getting from east to west right right and dude it was so chill they had air conditioning there yeah yeah and because you don't have a job right they're working they're prosecuting stuff and looking but you're just kind of sitting there and and and here's like and they turn white lights on so you just get to look around it was pretty wild and that was another funny story was Tony was I think he was riding back from from corrugador and he was in a dagger so yeah yeah so you catch a ride with those guys yeah yeah and um they like stopped and this was like that was the first time we went over

there now he's going back and so he wasn't too familiar and he's like he's listening and they're like you know like we got something up here yeah we got it looks like some we got oh we got an idea and he said he's sitting in the back and he's like by iED do you mean improvised explosive device He was like, damn, we're sitting on it. Because that's what they were saying. They were like, we're sitting on one. And we need to back up or something like that. It was just classic kind of Tony, you know.

You mean improvised, exposed to improvise? Like, we're about to get blown up. Later on, like in Afghanistan, I had done it ride along with those guys again. And, I mean, you know, terrain in Afghanistan is obviously very different, but it's like 14 hours, man. So it may have been air conditioner. It was nice, you know, and everything like that. But holy shit.

Oh, yeah. Blame my last. I wasn't trying to make. make any kind of statement that what those guys were doing. And it was awesome when General McFarland was on. And same thing with Colonel Dean. Like those guys, like Colonel Dean was talking about it. He says, you know, I would get the dagger guys,

which was these route clearance guys. He's like, I would get him for, I forget what the number was, but it was, you know, three days a week for four hours. And they'd go out into Tamim and they'd drive around and get blown up or, and those guys, those guys did that every night for, like you said, 14 hours a night or whatever it was, crawling along on the streets waiting to get blown up. And yeah, there's some guys that are in the mindproof vehicles. They also have an element of guys that are in Hummers on security that are holding security

for those guys. Those guys just night after night after night. And by the way, those quote, mind resistant vehicles, they were not always mind resistance. And there was, those things were taken out, guys were killed inside those vehicles. So, uh, the, the scene over there from that, from that IED perspective was freaking crazy. Well, there was nothing, anything that we did, we couldn't do without guys, without those guys and without guys like that. Because I remember we would request like a dagger, a clearance before, you know, we would do a

route, you know, a few hours or whatever ahead of time. Because the way there, I mean, and I'm sure it's changed, you know, it all depends on geographics and threaten the, in the areas. but they would roll there would be like an eight vehicle package and that one of the vehicles would be specifically EOD response so they're waiting for whatever they're prosecuting and then they're like okay we've gone as far as we can they'll back out and then the EOD team goes to work yeah it's like I mean so that's you know a scene could take four five hours once they find something so everybody's trying to stay awake you know it's just yeah so yeah we inserted guys off of um dagger a few times like sniper elements

because then it would be kind of a clandestine way to do it because those things are out there. But I remember you could not rely on the timeline at all. No. Because you were going to say, oh, just get them 600 meters down this road and they can get inserted. That 600 meters might take six hours or four hours when it should take 20 minutes

because they have to just dig out IED after IED after IED after IED. It's freaking totally ridiculous. And that's why when TASC you started putting sniper teams out and killing those IED, Placers man those freaking army guys and Marines were freaking pumped yeah especially what when we would do it like oh you there was an IED that killed two soldiers in this spot cool sniper overwatch three days later kill an enemy in place her in placeer and it was like those army guys would be they were so freaking thankful you know so thankful that that we were able to make that

happen um when uh that opening thing that I really Bread, that was like, again, the enemy was changing TTPs all the time. And the three eight Marines had been in an Overwatch. And they were leaving the Overwatch. And as they left the Overwatch, boom, hit an IED. Yeah, I think that was in the firecracker. Yeah, it wasn't firecracker area. No, I remember that.

And we read the report on it. We're like, okay. So if at any point, we're not going to have a mutually supporting Overwatch, if we, you know, if we have two Overwatch positions, you have got to see my primary, means of exit of egress and I've got to see yours. In that case, we had a mutually supporting, but they couldn't see. And that apartment complex only had one door. And so I remember when we were the guys were making entry, I took a knee on the right side of the door and there's like two,

three little mud steps and the ground was really hard. It was really hard packed. I remember thinking of myself, this would take them a minute to bury something. So if it does, something does get placed here, it's going to be, it's going to be on the surface. So that should be easy if we do see something. But we had to clear, so that was our SOP was to clear the door if it wasn't mutually supporting. And then we started just clearing the door before the platoon, we would basically make, you know, egress out of it from another angle, either above, you know, above it, a couple stories or basically, you know, however, we just had to be able to look at the door before the platoon exit in, you know, so. Yeah. Because that SOP, what they were, with it, or that TTP that they were doing, was

they would shoot at you, drive a car, kick out an ID or bury one, and then take off. And then the idea was during that firefight, you take a casualty. You have to then have bring trucks in, leave. And then they detonated as you're leaving because they can see you. But it was never our, uh, MO to leave during a firefight. Because we just had so, you would think there were six people in there, but there'd be 26 people in there. So we just never got into scenario where we had to, you know, hot extract out of a building.

Yeah. And that right there, that story is like exactly why when my, old commanding officer said, hey, you want someone that's thinking about EOD, a team guy walking up to a door to go set an Overwatch isn't going to be thinking, hey, let me touch this ground and think about how long it's going to take to and play something and think, they're not thinking about that. And they wouldn't be thinking about that, even if they went to EOD school. Sure. You know, they would not have that mindset to make that happen.

And that wasn't something like you, we learned in EOD school. That was like we read the reports and it's like, okay, this is what I'm going to do from now on, you know. And by the way, that's what, when Team 5 replaced us, that's what, that's exactly what happened. to them. They had three positions from what I understand and then yeah. Yeah, they were they were getting shot up. I think they had a guy get wounded and they decided to ex-ville and when they ex-ville they hit a massive IED that thankfully didn't kill anyone but it certainly gave a catastrophic life-changing injuries to a couple guys. Yep. Um, um, cop falcon gets put in and it's it's the other thing is interesting about these like big operations you you have to it's totally joint you're working

with iraqis working with army or Marines and the planning process and i didn't realize this so so general McFarland came on and he one of one of the things that he want to do and i just when i look at the dates his his goal was to do a like a battalion-sized operation every three or four days that's why these these things took place like they seem in my mind they always seem like oh we did like if i was to ask you how long was it between like cop putting in cop iron and putting in cop falcon and putting in the hospital how long do you think that wasn't between those uh a couple months probably three months i'm gonna it's it was like probably two weeks oh like it's it's it's great i know that's yeah so like wow

You look at it and you're like, oh my gosh. And, you know, I have the dates of when these things happened. And it's like, oh, yeah. It was like, oh, as a matter of fact, when cop falcon and cop hawk, which is the hospital, those were planned to be simultaneous at the same time. And actually they bumped one of them because they wanted to have us in there over watching it. So, but they just bumped it by like two days. So all these operations were just like, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Wow. And it was like, oh, yeah, you guys are going to come back for a day, reload, refit, and you're going to go do another one. And that's what it was like over. Yeah, that really felt like it was a couple months, not a couple weeks. I know. The whole thing is, it's, it was nuts. And that was the logistics behind that.

Yeah. Like I was talking about this with Colonel Dean. Because Colonel Dean, you know, he was a battalion commander. So he doesn't really, he would be surprised. He's like, oh, somehow there's another freaking 200, Texas barriers that just showed up. He didn't have to think about it because they were just there,

but like the logistics that it took to make that happen and to have every two or three days another 200 or 300 Texas barriers show up in Ramadi ready to go out and put around a combat outpost. There was freaking crazy amount of stuff going on. And it was also, it was awesome

that so many of these big operations, it was seals going in first. It was seals going in first cop iron. It was seals going into first cop eagles. It was seals going into the first cop falcon. Those guys, they wanted us out there so bad. And it was what I was talking about before. Like once dagger came through to clear, that was so critical for them.

Dagger would come through to clear. They would love if we had eyes on. If we had snipers overwatching that clearance and then watching to make sure that was one of the, I wouldn't say it was go, no go. But man, they were appreciating. and it was a it was almost a go no go for that that goes back to like at the platoon level that's a trust thing that that was developed you know internally and then we just had to basically you know the scope just got bigger and see they had to develop these trustful and these trust

relationships with these these units and that was something that I think that I learned and I observed was that I really carried over even into my life now is really bridge and gaps with units, with relationships, with people, with other organizations. I mean, like, that is so much, I found that it's so much more effective and then just basically, hey, look at me, look at, this is what we're, this is what I'm doing, this is what we're capable of doing. But building that trust and find that the mutually benefiting elements of these relationships, it completely, they're so much more effective this way.

And so that was like what I, that was my first real look at what, in the positive light of calling what the war machine is because that's what it was it's like you talk about all these like new you know uh hesco barriers or all this other stuff shows up guys just go to work you know i mean yeah there's a bit of self preservation with it but they just they just knew and then that's where all that decentralized leadership really kind of comes into play it's like guys just know this is their role this is the machine that that has to happen so this whole time obviously there's there's people getting wounded there's people getting killed i i i had to i i had to i i had to i i i had to i i I knew.

I just didn't think it was possible to continue to do that and be lucky forever. Like I, I, you know, if you guys were rolling out and I wasn't going on an op, it was like I would have the most horrible feeling, right? and not to be like fatalistic, but just look at the numbers, man. Just look at the numbers of, oh, going out tonight, going out the next night, going out the night after that, going out the night after that, going out the night after that,

going out the night after that. It's, I, and I don't know if I was the only person that was looking at it going, the luck is the luck is going to run out man at some point you know it's just you can't you can't drive down route michigan that many times you can't go on a foot patrol that many times you can't get in that many gun fights and not you just can't get that lucky or at least i always i had the feeling like at some point, someone's going to get wounded. Someone's going to get killed.

And the wounded came pretty quick. And then there was guys getting shot in the camelback, guys getting shot in the chest plate, guys getting shot in the helmet. I mean, when guys are getting shot in the camel back, the chest plate, the helmet, the back plate, did you have that feeling? Or did you have the indestructible feeling? Oh, God, no. No.

I mean, it was, I mean, it was, you know, you don't, one doesn't develop courage by ignoring fear it's by basically going into it and so um the it it felt like it was it was common um and we did do a shift like you know in july um we did do a shift we stopped in the afternoons and we started focusing on the mornings because the afternoon and the evening is kind of the witching hour right you know it was like where it was like starting to cool off and then you know prayer time and then that's where the activity would start so we started focusing on the morning But yeah, it got it got nerve-wracking and scary. It was then when we were actively in firefights,

that it was, like there wasn't a fear, it was before it. It was when it wasn't, when it was quiet, when it wasn't happening. Because in firefights, I mean, we were like in our element. This is like, fuck, this is actually kind of fun, you know, but we're effectively fighting as a unit and we're laying down fire superiority

and we are making our moves and making our calls. and moving. But it was when it was quiet, was when it was most unnerving. And even planning, I mean, it was unnerving. It's like, we're going, where? And what just happened?

Okay. You know, but we, I say we, but I think I can speak for just about everybody on that, but myself was like, well, this is war and this is bigger than just me and just us. This is the machine. I mean, we're supposed to be here to liberate, this entire region to basically make them this is what we're charged with.

But disagree with it or agree with it politically or not, it doesn't matter. This is what we're here for. You don't expect a unit like us to go and not bring everybody home. They weren't really necessarily trained for that. Train for down men, procedures and things like that. And of course, you know, like the cadre down is the biggest guy because you've got to be prepared to carry the biggest guy. win the firefight and then treat combat first aid. But when it shows that our unit is not invincible,

yeah, it's a stark reality. And I think that the wounds that have lasted for decades afterwards was really unexpected. But, I mean, I miss them all, man. you know I mean it was um but it's war you know it's war

and um there's not a a course that or a training block that you take or you go to during unit level training or any advanced training that teaches you how to deal with that and that that is a reality I think it's more glossed over and some ego

that it's like ah you know if I get shot you know fine whatever and you know just do this for you know for my family or whatever but I think that when it really, it starts to get real when guys are getting hurt, just like you said. And it's like you start to get that gut feeling that it's not a matter of if, but when. And you try to move and predict how it could happen

and then counter that with different SOPs and go here at this time and use the nighttime and all of your different advanced equipment and advanced procedures that you do. And then I don't know where. Yeah. Mark being the lead turret gunner, right? And, you know, that lead turret gunner, bro, that guy is, you know.

Exposed. Exposed. You know. And he would just be up there night after night, heading out. And, you know, I remember I wasn't going out, so I'd be out there. And actually, it was awesome because when you. you guys were going out everyone like in the task unit the non seals the support guys everyone would be out there kind of seeing you all off and I remember talking to mark and you know

like you good he's like good to go you know just just so we are yeah yeah just you know just awesome yeah um but that's contagious too man like because like the you know fear and um questioning I mean, that spreads like it's like wildfire. But so does, so does the optimism. I mean, this is what we're here to do. You know, like it or don't. I mean, it's, even over there, it's still a volunteer program. You know, you can, but it never, you know, it's, it's nice that it never comes to that.

And so the support piece from, from the guys into each other started when we were first. you know formed up you know that's that's how you can tell so um so Ryan gets you know Ryan gets wounded freaking horrifically wounded um you guys get him out of there you go back to cop falcon armies identified some spots where they think the insurgents are they're in they're in one of the biggest gun battles and by gun I mean all guns They're using main gun rounds. They're and they, you know, ask Leif, hey, we think we know, can you guys come out and hit these guys? Can you guys hit some of these targets?

Laif calls me like, hey, this is what they want. And, you know, can we help them? And to me, it wasn't really even a decision. It was, hey, the Army who has supported us over and over and over and over again. Need help? Well, and I was like, yep, go. And, and, you know, that's when Mark gets killed. And then all that, you know, and especially because it's like Mark and Ryan just too

freaking, just badass with the, with that energy and that, that immortal, like vibe. Um, gone. And, you know, when you're talking about, oh, we, we don't really, yeah, we train for the down man. We train for the immediate medical medical. We train for this. We, like, the war's not over. I mean, not at all. And, okay, we're going to, we're going to have a, uh, we're going to see him off.

We're going to stand down for a day, two days. And then guess what? Going back out. That's what's happening. And there is no, there is no, it's not like, oh, well, we, we, it's not like playing roulette where, or what people think roulette is like, oh, yeah, well, it's been, it's been black, you know, 10 times in a row. It's definitely going to be read this time. Nope, it doesn't work like that. You took a casualty today.

You could take one tomorrow. You could take one the day after that. It doesn't matter. It's get gear back on and go back out there. and yeah I you know from for me was like there was no school there was no class on any of this

and I remember you made this freaking video like a memorial video for Mark and you're you were showing it in the tactile operation center and like to basically confirm that it was all ready to play at the memorial service

or something like that. It was my first time seeing it. And I'm standing there, I'm watching it. And I remember, like, I got done with it. I was just done. And I remember turning around, walking out, and I was just trying to not break down in front of you and the rest of the people in the talk.

And I just turned out of there, walked out of there and just went outside and just broke down by myself alone. because, you know, there's a certain point where you're like, okay, yeah, this is not, you know, I, this is too much right now. And that was that, that was that moment for me. Like, I'm, I watched your, your video and got done with it. I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm going to break right now. And I did.

Went outside and freaking by myself, got my shit together. Um, but everybody, I also knew like, I was like, everyone is having this. Everyone is having this. And the only, what we have to do is move forward. That's one of the things, you know, that's, and I remember telling you guys this,

like when I finally, when we got together, I was like, hey, we're gonna go back to work. And I remember the look on everyone's faces was like, you know, everyone's a little bit different. But everyone, it was the one, common language that I think that everyone had was we go back to work. Hey, I'm scared. I'm horrified. I'm pissed. I'm angry. All those emotions could all be turned into going back to work. And that's what we did. That was what you have to do. That's what dad and father figure teaches you

when you fall off your bike at, you know, three or four years old, you have to get back on it. You can't be afraid of it. I mean, this is what we're doing. And I remember what, if it had been me and not Mark, you know,

and Mark are sitting in that room, yeah, when you have to get back to work, you know, we'll grieve and, and we'll memorialize and we'll carry on, but it's not going into a corner,

you know, for the next, through the rest of the last two and a half months of deployment and not doing anything. You have to show and be resilient. God doesn't just give you resilience and strength and discipline. It gives you opportunities to develop those things.

That's one hell of a way of sending that message, but that's what it was. It's like we have to get back to work. And notoriously, every unit is known for that. You have to. You know, Mark was, God, he was such a good 60 gunner. You know, when, I mean, hell yeah. Fucking animal, dude.

The dude would carry that thing. I mean, he got big on deployment and he would carry that thing without a sling. And when Ryan was shot and we're bound him back to Cop Falcon, you know, we're stopping at intersections. And we had, you know, people passing. And he would, I would see, hold on an intersection with, you know, people coming up and we're bumping each other out. And he would come sprinting up like an Indian sprint. the back, bump me out. Like, I got it. And I'd look back at

him and there'd be like another eight, ten people behind him and they would all go past him and he would clean up the rear and then he would sprint past and clear. I mean, like, bro, I mean, that soccer stamina's kicking in right now, dude. But he was, yeah, he was an animal. He was a machine. And the great thing about the way with it,

you know, you and Mama Lee and Leif, you know, guys like myself and other guys that are, you know, Bobby. We have done a good thing and continuing to make sure his legacy and his story is not lost and we do memorialize him

the right way. I mean, there's, you know, Andy had said it really well a couple years ago, a year and a half ago, he said, you know, a lot of people can't, just your average American can't name, a name of somebody that died in World War II or Korean War, Vietnam, and the list goes on. And because this long stretch of combat operations spanning over 20 years has involved so many people, it's the right thing to do is to continue every August 2nd and every March 20th.

You know, I'm utilizing the social media to get the message out there to people that knew him and the people that didn't know them. That's what he meant to us, you know, not what, not how he died, but really how he lived. lived, you know, it was inspirational. So, you know, he used to, was doing, uh, talking about him a while back and I said that he was a very spiritual man. He was quiet about it. And he was a family man, quiet about it. He's a great soccer player, not quiet about it. Yeah. But, you know, I often, you know, and I struggled for a long time, you know, a long time after his passing. And my way of putting the pieces back together was just to not face it and get right back

on a platoon, get right back into something else. I mean, I think that that's how you deal with, you know, sadness, you know, some bouts of depression and loss is you just got to get back to work, get back to work. And even, you know, today with guys, you know, that retire, you have to get to work. Build something. Build something within yourself. Build something with your family. built find a new trade craft but you have to get to work because if you sit dormant you will not

recover and you will not heal and you will not continue to grow but you have to get back to work yeah because i know that's what he would have yeah that's that's what he won't that's what he would have done that's what that's what bagels was telling us to do like exactly what he was telling us like don't feel sorry for me get back to work out um and again you know i i i i i i We were not unique at all. Like, we were not unique at all. The Army and Marine Corps, companies and platoons and battalions that we were there that were with us,

we were not unique at all. They lost one, two, three, five, seven guys. Team dealer, 25% casualties. Like, there was, Charlie Company, first of the 506, I forget, but it's just so many of, these units lost so many guys and the things that we're talking about right now they went through the same things and guess what they did they went back and they did their job and until the end and you know like when mickey got killed september 29th this was look was it his actual last mission

it was close i can tell you that it was close and you know might have done one more maybe but it was close and what was he doing he was working that's what the boys were out working and again we were not unique people um you know the the the one one AD extended for an extra three months they lost another 20 guys in their extension or 20 odd guys I don't know what the number is but they lost people they were supposed to go home. No, you're staying in an extra three months. Oh, by the way, you're going to lose another, however many people that is.

And that's the key component, what you just talked about. And it was what I said, what you said is like get back to work. Now, listen, at some point, you got to take a breather. At some point, you've got to take a breather. And I'm sure we'll get to that. We lose Mikey, September 29th. When did you go home? remember. I made it in time.

Well, I get back for Mikey's funeral. That must have been just crazy. Yeah. To be like, oh, we're in Ramadi and now we're home and we're going to Mikey's funeral. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to see Debbie Lee.

You know, I mean, it's and wanted to make sure that she was not at all that she was taken care of. You know, at least welcome to buy us come and get off that plane. This was really awesome that she was there. Yeah, I mean, it was, I think it was,

I think if I remember right, the, his funeral was on the 11th or 12th of October. And I think we got back like the 9th or 10th, like right before. And, yeah, it was, it was, we, we weren't, we were doing that for the family, but because it was so significant, we were also doing it for the entire community.

You know, I mean, the turnout was, you know, was phenomenal. And that support was all for the family. And for each other, I mean, that's what it was. I mean, it's a huge, huge loss within two months. But then, yeah. And it didn't take any time personally a little bit, but I got right back to work in November. And I got assigned back to Steel Team 3, Charlie Platoon.

You know. And this is now, Stoner took this over. Yeah. And you actually got married 2006. I got married, yeah, about a month and a half before we deployed. Okay. So you were married while we were on deployment. Yeah.

And she's a psychologist. Was she, she, was she, where was she in her schooling at this point? She was, she psychoanalyzing you already? She never has done that. And that, and doesn't do that today. So at that point, she was still doing her internship, and because she had done her master's and her doctorate through Pepperdine. And we met through friends, you know, when I, like, man, within a week of me getting back to,

getting to San Diego in February, March of 2005. And a funny story to you is I had told Biggles when we were at Shaw's in October of 2005 that, and we'd only, you know, her and I'd only been together like six months. And I told him that I was considering proposing to her in December. And then at a later time, Biggles and I were out, like going, he wanted to go grab Sonic or something, you know. Biggles. And he asked me, he said, he goes, hey, man, like, you're talking about proposing.

Like, how do you know? And I said, well, you know, I'm at that age where she is like, not to sound cliche or cheesy, but she's rounding off. Everything like in my life and she's the one that I want to spend the rest of my life with and I said keep in mind I'm not that much of a planner right like five year 10 year. Yeah, you know, but I do know that whatever I end up doing she's going to keep me in check and I like to think that that was when he first started the the consideration of proposing to Kelly. Yeah, and later on that you know, he had mentioned it, you know, like after we all got back and everything. I think you'd mention that he's like, hey man, you know, like that chat. Like, yeah, that wasn't in school.

Fuck, yeah, don't put this on me, dude. I've actually, I've actually had that chat probably four times where people would ask me like, hey, how did you, how'd you actually like, no? You know, like they're looking for some magic answer. Well, what I would tell guys is marry up. Don't marry down. That's true. You know, marry up.

I mean, she was going to, you know, she finished her, her internship and was defending her, doing her dissertation, defending her dissertation. and eventually, you know, finished and graduated with her doctor and out of pepperone. So, in clinical psychology. That's the same people, people would ask me the same thing. If she analyzed you, I mean, she could do her second dissertation on just me alone. Yeah. So the attitude going into, now you go back into, uh, task unit at, you know, Seth's running it.

I remember him, he's like, we're not task unit bruiser. Yeah. He would say that. He's like, we're not tasking. He's like, we're not asking you, Pritcher. Yeah. He's like, that's not happening. He's like, I'm not doing it.

He's like, I'm not taking it. That's you, you're good. Like, I'm not, we're not tasking prisoner. I was like, whatever. That's cool. I didn't know he said that. Yeah. He never, he never echoed that to us.

So. Yeah. He, um, but the conversation was when we got home, he's like, I'm getting out. Oh, wow. I was like, I was like, you know, because you know, Seth, right?

Yeah. Very emotional. and would you know there's a lot of you know he he wouldn't show it but like when someone was when he didn't like someone it really bothered him you know when someone was a backstabber when someone was weak when someone like just there's a lot of people that he would get very frustrated with and so you know he comes home he's like I'm getting out and I was like dude like chill and And then so finally he's or he's like, I finally convinced him. He's like, well, I'm out.

Then I'll go to language school. So he's going to go to language school and learn French. And then he's like, and then I'll get out. Or then I'll do something. I'll do a freaking ops tour and then I'll get out. So I at least, I was like, okay, cool. And then I was like, dude, because then they needed a task unit commander. I go, bro, you should do this task unit commander.

And he's like, no. No, you know, these guys, blah, blah, blah. And I go, I go, dude, just do it. And he goes, I don't fuck do this shit again. Like, he's freaking trade at guys. And I'm like, I'm the OIC of trade at. And he was like, all right. And he literally walked right down to the exos office.

It's like, hey, I'll take this task you that. That was 100%. And he took the same task in it. Yeah. So that's how that went down. But the other thing I told him was like, hey, dude, like, you're going to go over there on deployment. It's not going to be shit going on.

Go out, train jihitsu, get jacked, and freaking play guitar. Like no factor. This is, and he was like, hell yeah. You know, so freaking guys kicked ass and the workup and everything. And, you know, those kind of became famous last words. But April, we went to D.C. It was April of 2008. You guys were all locked and loaded to go on deployment,

but they had the ceremony for Mikey Monsor, Medal of Honor for being presented to his parents at the White House. And they turned that into really, a powerful and meaningful thing where basically they gave out task unit awards so they brought everyone out there yeah bigels was out there with tray his dog like it was freaking yeah it was awesome it was the there was a ceremony at the navy museum the pentagon and then the white house yeah yeah i mean it was a yeah yeah that was that was an awesome time it was yeah so when i when i got back and then was basically going to go to another team at the at the at the UD command that was that

they're going to get paired up they want to be back with CL Team 3 which I respected the consistency it's like yeah I mean you know I'm going to know half of those guys and then like it's it's good the rapport is going to be there and it's going to be easy to bridge that gap and I can help get the guys on the EOD platoon ready for you know when we get through EOD ULT you know level training that'll be easy for me to get them brushed up on getting ready for I ads, CQC, et cetera. So my mindset was, I need to put all this in a package and pass it on as quick as possible. I think within about two or three weeks of me getting back, I went and sat down with a team

that was getting ready to go that was their ad von was already gone. Some of the EOD guys were waiting to go with Team 5. And I was like, here, here, here's what's going on. And it was just a matter of just trying to pass on this information as quick as possible. And I obviously told them to say, look, TTPs are going to change. SOPs will change and everything. It's a chess game. But this is just everything.

So I felt like I had so much information that just I couldn't keep to myself. I had to get it out, you know, to as many people as I could. And so they put me in a training cell for a couple months before I got on that platoon to go back with Seth. And so that's what I was doing. I'm like here, here. And so we just would put together scenarios and different and breakdown. And we even had a couple of teams come through and we sat down and briefed them on

if you lose a guy, you know, recommendations, if you're going out. I mean, this is stuff we started doing was like, before we went out, before I'd go out on an op in 2006, I'd pack and put my laptop and a bag on my bed. So that way I was easy to, you know, if I was injured, that's what was going to Germany with me. So it wasn't taxing the guys to pack up my shit in my room.

So just like, just trying to explain that because nobody explained that to us, you know, and this is what happens. This is how it goes. When somebody gets hurt, you lose a guy, you know, the emotional onslaught of it. And then, yeah, and then formed back up with Team 3, trial platoon, and felt right at home.

That's actually what I did, too, in the fact that, you know, getting done with that deployment and the Admiral who had been the Admiral's aide, whatever, probably two years or a year and a half earlier, you know, so I knew him. And he was like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I want to go to trade debt.

I want to go to trade at. I want to pass on when I learned. And I want to make sure that these guys know what they're doing when they go over there. Yeah. And that was a no-brainer for me. Yeah, as quick as possible. Yeah. It's like, it's fresh.

I was just there here. Yeah. You know. And we changed a lot of training. Like we stepped it up. and the guys that were there before training the SEAL teams does great training most of the time and so the training that we went through together was great freaking outstanding and we were able to take that and even go go harder and go better um and then yeah like I said we did that ceremony

you did the workup we did that ceremony you end up going on deployment again 2008 the plan is you know we're all going to you guys are all going to get jacked and you know play guitar whatever take college courses, all that stuff. You guys show up and there was actually leadership, senior leadership in country that had been in Ramadi, who said, oh, those guys are back, let's do something down in Sauter City. That was kind of the genesis of the whole thing.

And so they get tasked, Team 3 gets tasked with sending a troop into Sauter City to go and basically provide Overwatch as they're building this wall down there. And they ended up putting together an ad hoc crew. Ended up, instead of just taking one task unit and putting them in there, they ended up assembling like three, four, five guys from various platoons, East and West Coast, different troops,

probably not ideal to do that in some aspects. Like if you haven't worked directly with people before, look, everyone went through buds, everyone knows what an I ad is, but even in platoons, there's be like a little different. Now you're talking different troops. There can be more difference.

Now you're talking different coasts. And we did our best. You know, we would always get together. We'd meet with the East and West Coast. We'd get together. We'd go over TTPs. We'd make sure that we were in. the same, you know, in the same lane on the same sheet of music.

But still, just like groups of friends, you know, groups of friends have different sayings, you know, well, two different platoons. They have a little different sayings in them. And echo for the East and West Coast thing. That's called the curriculum review. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Yeah, yeah.

Hopefully we're doing that in Vegas as well. But you guys, you guys get put together. Seth is actually put in charge of it It gets called Debt Defender Which I want to say one of the one of the assistant Patoon commanders came up with that Seth told me the story said what should be called? The guy said Defender boom done

St. Michael becomes the The symbol Two weeks I was in out west We were building racks in our new rooms way way way out west Two weeks and then they're like hey we got a meeting Then we go in like So they're forming a team and And it's going to be working out of Baghdad International Airport going into Sauter City.

But they're only going to take like four or five guys from each platoon. And I look at Johnny and I'm like, watch, check this out. Like, you know, so and so, so and so and so and so and so and they're like, a Nick. I'm like, told you. You know, so. EOD up, right? Yep. Yep.

And you had the experience. And you know Stoner. Yeah. I'll use a troop commander. You know, so yeah. So that's how it looked. And so, yeah, we formed up with the East Coast guys. and it was good

I mean you know we did a long drive from way out west all the way you know made our various stops at different at the different stations with the guys

it was interesting to see Ramadi two years later place looked like it was just a regular town so crazy yeah it was like Rosarito Mexico it was just like

people were out and just like I mean it was we were drive we drove through the turn of the day I'm like what I mean it was

it was definitely a culture shock yeah well that that is the model of counterinsurgency Yeah. That was, you know, points, is pointed to and called the model of counter uncertainty. Yeah.

And just was in urban combat. Like there's so many awesome things that happened there. And the 228, the 11AD, outstanding. And that, you got to see that success. Yeah, I mean, it was brief, but it was just, it was remarkable. But yeah, marrying up with the guys. And it's like I knew a handful of the guys from the East Coast. A lot of it, and actually some of the guys I knew when I was in Puerto Rico as a boat guy.

that they had deployed down as newer guys. And so, yeah, a lot of that stuff kind of comes full circle. But, yeah, we had to do some I had walkthroughs, you know, little TTPs were a little bit different. Helmets look different on guys, you know, just different kit, you know, East Coast, West Coast gear. It was kind of funny. But, yeah, you know, what you did was, what you did was a shakeout patrol.

You know, you had to basically shake out gear and shake out just normal, you know, tails up, head counts, stuff like that. So, but, I mean, it was great. It was great to, like, really open that up. because then now we're working you know the infamous solder city and you know the you know the wall down I think was route gold or copper and being part of that you know I mean another significant you know unexpected combat deployment to Iraq yeah I was talking to stoner well you know I'm sure yeah so and he was telling me what was going on and everything and I forget the way he put it but he was just like um basically calling the fighters in solder city like like Like, the fighters in Ramadi were, you know, like the enemy fighters in Ramadi were like good and clever. And the, he's like, these guys in Saar city are like brave and they are coming. And there might not be as clever, but they're freaking less like crazier.

Yeah. And, yeah. And you guys went in there and really, really put down the sword. Mm-hmm. Um, and the whole thing was like six weeks long. And it was what happened, um, they basically the, the shakes that were in there, the hoodlums and the shakes and their, the Madi militia leadership, like they had been just wantonly killing Americans for five years at this point.

And really doing it sort of uncontested. because Soder City was off limits. For all practical purposes, it was off limits. And so now American forces went in there. They're trying to build this, and they're still getting away with a lot. And then you guys roll in there with that defender and kill a ton of Mouge fighters. And they came to the table and said, let's work something out. Yeah.

And then we stayed for another two or three or three months. Yeah. You know, didn't have to go back into the city. We're just going back into surrounding cities. But, no. This is, you know, again, you get tagged your way out there in the West. This is a, once again, you're stepping up into a situation where the outcome is known, is not known. But we can, we can start running some numbers and start running the odds.

How do you feel about going in with a debt defender? Well, we got that call or we had that meeting. I had a message and email for my wife that day. And so I called her and she was pregnant. I'm like, yep. Yeah. So this, you know, the same day, I'm like, well, then this might be it. Then there's the least my legacy will at least continue.

So yeah, there's that, you know, bit of acceptance that, okay. You know, I mean, this is how things are lining up and this is, this is the messaging. So, yeah, so, yeah, go back out. there and like I said it's like we formed back up and you know new faces new names you know and but uh it was great I mean in you know in retrospect it was I mean I get to do more demo than I know I want to do with you know what demo were you doing loopholes oh just getting your loophole yeah and really figuring out like the best way to the science behind it I was I was showing breaches and snipers how to do it so it could basically not have to set up eight or 10 charges

myself, you know, but it was great, man. I mean, it was like there was, we were in it and we're living in like we're, we're at the zoo. Saddam Hussein's zoo is the like the building we're living in. It's like open bay, but he didn't care. You know, we were, you know, we were part of it. So we got picked and we got picked because of our cell responsibility or, you know, our sole responsibility of the platoon and because we were trusted and we were experienced. And so it was this varsity super platoon that was put together. And we were just, man, I think that I think we were all just stoked to be there and not, you know, not out west.

So, you know, here we were expecting, you know, gym, tan and eat, you know, kind of deployment, you know. So. Coming home from that deployment. Yeah. How are you doing? Good. Yeah, good. It was time to occupy the mine with something else. I wanted a break. And it wasn't that hard to sell that on the EOD commands. I came in. Like, I'm tired and want to break. So I went over to the training command, the EOD training command. And I was running an air program, a jump program. So the EOD jump program had been really good for a few years. And then I basically bridged a gap with the East Coast training command. And I was running an air program. And I was run an air program. I was run an air program. And then I basically bridged a gap with the East Coast training command.

command that was running a free fall program. So we were running a free fall advanced course, you know, basic like rope stuff for new EOD students. And then it's like some sustainment stuff like, you know, static line and, you know, boat drops and things like that. And so did you get like, on free fall right as soon as you did it. We like, oh, hell yeah.

Well, I did it. And then I got back from that art deployment 2006. And so I started just doing it. And it was like, I mean, what was it? It was occupying me with, you know, this. you know, I had this loss and it's like, this is just like, I'm driving on something. Just this is, I'm just going to go, go, go. And it was great.

So, yeah, I did that for a couple years. And I was saying it was really cool because. And your son was obviously born and you got back. Yeah, he was January, January 9th, 2009. Yeah. Yeah. So the, we got, um, uh, that air program, NSW didn't have much. And so I started inviting the West Coast, you know, seal platoons and working with their airloft.

And like, do you guys, you have guys that want to come. And so I would start getting like a squad from Team 7, Team 3 guys came through. I didn't even get SDV guys to come through. So we were basically doing this advanced two-week, you know, Hey-ho jump profile in Arizona. And so it was, I mean, it was really, it was, I loved it. You know, we were facilitating this advanced training for sustainment and current. whether or not, you know, this side would ever use it as a real operational capability. It didn't matter.

NSW funded it. Socom looked at it as like, it's a viable program. So if we can get guys good enough, then perhaps at some day, some, somewhere they could at least, you know, jump into a, you know, a, a, um, like a static kind of compliant, you know, like, hey, we got to get these guys into this, you know, AFSB or whatever it is. You know, they've got to get them in. And we can't land a C-130. We can jump them in. So at least the proficiency was in. So that was my mindset.

I was packaging this information that I had and just trying to basically build curriculum and get training out to the guys. And how long did you do that for? About two, two and a half years. And what was after that? Then that was coming up on 2012. And I was going to basically get slated to go back over to Moving Net 3. And they had changed the dynamics because I'd picked up E7.

They changed the dynamics of the structure of an EOD platoon. It was that if you were going to do an LCPO, you had to be a senior chief. So they wouldn't put me on an EOD team going back with any of the West Coast teams unless I was an E8 and I wasn't. So I had done my master board. I was a master of EOD deck at the time. And then a buddy of mine who was former East Coast was the training officer at Treadette. He's like, hey man, you should come over here.

And then the CMC at Trayette also knew him. from all the jumping stuff because I got, you know, met up with, worked with a lot of the East Coast guys. They pulled me over to trade at and then, um,

was working with, uh, a couple guys that I had deployed with in the 2008 from Team 3. And then, uh, was, and I got assigned to assaults and I was in the, the South.

So just setting some IDs on people. Yeah. And so, and there was a, there was a disparate. There was a little bit of a disparity in that block where I looked at it as, um, this is urban, you know, the guys are finished in CQC and then now do an urban combat. Well, I'm assigned here.

I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm not going to like, I'm not going to like really test and evaluate the platoons, the seals. What I'm going to do is I'm going to pull the, the four EOD guys that are assigned to them and I'm going to train them on how to train their seals because it's better coming from them than coming from me. So that's what that, then I basically built up like IED classes. practical, like on target stuff where they'd have to prosecute, you know,

a suicide vest or an IED at the doorstep, you know, like these like full blown egress off of a houseborn IED. So like these different things, working with the JTAX to be able to like drop on things. So their EOD guys would get schooled up from me and then they would train their respective platoon. So that way that report,

because I'm not going with them. They are. So I wanted them to look good. So I never did like anything that was like going to make the EOD guys look like shit in front of the platoon. Right? I tried to, but, you know, so that was like, that was the mold that I tried to create with those guys. And from what I understand, it's still really successful in that model is still

going. Yeah, that's a great model. Yeah. Um, 2012, your daughter's born. December 2012. Yeah. So everything's kind of going like pretty awesome at this. Yeah. I mean, I'm busy. Um, you know, uh, yeah, I'm busy and kind of trying to start. to look a little bit forward, you know? It's like, where am I going to surf next? Not so much that anymore. You know, like, so. Got mouths to feed.

Yeah. Not just stoked to realize. Responsibility, you know. But yeah, you know, life, life seemed to be, yeah, life was kind of shaping up pretty good. And then what I really noticed too and was that, and it was kind of like, it was a little, it was kind of contagious in the, in that, in that cell with us at trade at was that a few of us started having some like short-term memory loss stuff because I mean we were we were breaching and the guys we because we wanted the guys doing heavy breaching mechanical manual and explosive breaching

and so they didn't nobody was doing any studies but we kind of started throwing around like we understand as a breacher or so you're supposed to have like a ballistic helmet we're like we started wearing bomb helmets because of the venting so like when the shockwave would go through we wanted to vent out the top as it put this is our own science. right you know that we're looking at bro science dhawk was got a PhD in pro science yeah yeah wound you know so make sure you wear eye protection you know yeah

but so that kind of that was like that was uh that was a little bit of a tough time you know sleep was kind of tough um you know at least for me personally and um yeah just kind of fatigue but I was ready I really loved it there I loved it because it felt like being back on a platoon Trit was awesome Trayette was like one of like next to being on deployment It was one of the, that cell was one of the coolest places I'd been stationed. I, I, I'd been assigned.

And then it was awesome because then I got a, like, I had a conversation with one of the guys who was a platoon chief at team three. It just so happened to have been a new guy on my first deployment to Guam in 1999. And I was a platoon chief at team three. And he's like, hey, man, you want to go with us? Yeah. So I ended up doing an augment for about four months to have. Afghanistan with them in 2014. It's just as an E5.

An E5 chief? Yeah. This is an E5. Took two bags in a weapon suite and I was set. How was that to bullet it? It's fantastic. What was going on? So I first got paired up with Alpha Patoon and then I moved out to Trialka Patoon.

And it was, yeah, it was something else to be in Afghanistan in January, you know, like my first, my first look at it. but it was long overwatches. I'm like, damn, that's my specialty. Rural or urban? Mostly rural, but there was some urban.

We did end up getting into some urban situations, but it was really cool because I had a lot of friends that I'd worked with at Tradeette, and I knew through the air program I was running that to be in Afghanistan with

and a lot of snipers, a lot of big gunners, and so it was great. You know, be part of that with those guys. And I got to, and as luck as it had it, I got to pull up a, you know, pull up a pressure switch IED and rip that out of the ground.

Yeah. So that was unexpected. So it really was it because they had EOD guys. And it was like, you know, that was not my role. My role was to help the assault force, to be part of the assault force and then help, you know, be a part of the EOD guys as well. Talk me through this shit. So you're geared for what? You're on patrol and all of someone's like EOD up or did you see it?

No. So there was a, so we were in vehicles. We were in vehicles coming back. and one of the, one of the Afghans that stepped on basically a pressure switch and he, they got him out and we were stuck. We were waiting for dagger for like the time

it was called something else, but for the route clearance to come and clear it. And I was like, hey dude, like, it's already blown up. Like there might be a secondary, but let's, you know, we'll check it out. And so went down and it's like, okay, well, there's wire going to the blast hole. There's another wire there. And it's all night, you know, I'm like, yeah. And it's like, you know, take out my little,

little non-metallic knife. You know, it's like a ceramic knife. So there's no, you're not, you know, closing any contacts. It's like, yeah, it's good to go. Grabbed it. I'm like, hey, it's clear, man. And the guy's like, I'm just going to wait. Just give us some time.

You know, but it was good because like that, it's like, well, you know, and I can say this now, but it's at the time you're supposed to like turn that in. But it's like it wasn't anything new. So what did I do? I brought it back with me and I put it on target during, full mission profile for trade at it's like this and I talk through it like not not me grabbing it but like this is real like this is like here's here's how they're building them this is what it looks like so uh you get done with that you keep working at trade at is that where you close out your career

yeah so um that was 14 and then um I was coming up to rotate out of trade at and I was talking with one of the EOD commands and it was like hey there's a spot at team seven you know on a EOD platoon to paired up with team seven and like I'm ready to go and it did this time I've already been in 19 years and um they're like we're going to put you on a different team did you make senior chief no and so that was why and so they're like not going to put you on that team had a few discussions trying to get a little bit of leverage and I said okay so I'll put in my retirement papers and I got some calls from a couple master chiefs at training commands like hey will you come here I said no I'm just now leaving a training command I mean yeah I got a deployment out of it but you know no so

I'm either going to go with one of the West Coast teams and do this again or not. I mean, like, you guys are, it's silly to not put me back there. I've got this experience. So, but it's okay. So I put in my papers and my wife was, I asked her like, where do you want to go? The trade-in had put me into a role as the, the assault's deputy, because the assaults deputy was a GS. He had then transferred over to Buds. And so they're like, hey, you've been here the longest.

You can help doing logistics for Amherty. request and I was like sure you know and so that was kind of cool until they hired a new GS there and so I considered putting in for that yeah to stay in San Diego and it's like I know this place but she really wanted to go back to Florida so it's like okay so I figured well let me get current back up on the jumping side and we'll go to Florida into this this little town you know population 40,000 that's like the mecca for parachute manufacturing so that's where we went you know a little delay in Florida Did you have a plan like specifically what you were going to do?

Obviously you got your jumps back up. You got your calls backup. Did you know some people? I did. Yeah. So I reached out to two different companies in December of 2015 and said, hey, you know, like I'm looking to come to the land. You know, this is, you know, here's my resume, et cetera, et cetera.

And I both had interviews at the same time while I was still on active duty in February of 2016. Interviews went great. They both made me an offer. And I went with the 1099 route. So I was working as under. LLC as a contractor teaching how to basically military units how to fly you know advanced parachute flight so I did that for about a year do you like it I loved it yeah I mean I learned a lot I mean you know I learned a lot a hell of a lot as far as like SOPs for you know advanced parachute flight for what like

what the what the guys that what the end users need and what they were doing and it was a great it was a great segue for me because, you know, I retire, I leave where I've been stationed forever with all the guys. I go to Florida and there's nobody there. And but now I get to work these contracts and I still get to be around sort of like my guys. Yes, yeah, I accept I'm not putting on the body armor anymore and I'm not part of the platoon anymore, but I'm still getting to be around the guys. And that's like that personality. Yeah, because when I retired, you know, after 20 years, in the team, and something like 18 of those years. So trade at, you know where the trade at building was?

Trade at Seal Team 3, Seal Team 1, all right there. And when I was also at Seal Team 7, when I was at Seal Team 7, it was in the building, it was in one of the Bud's buildings that's right next to Team 1. Yeah. So like my whole career was within a 300-yard radius. Yeah, it was a big circle.

It was like a little circle. And, um, And then, you know, like you clean out your locker. You put your stuff into your minivan and drive off base, turn your badge leave. And that's it. Thank you for your show. Now, listen, for me, I was in San Diego still. So I'm still going to like, you know, hear and see the boys and whatnot.

But you just straight. Now, look, it still was, it still is a very bizarre thing. It's a bizarre thing when you spend your whole adult life from freaking eight, until 38 that was me like that's your whole development like you're not even a you don't even have your frontal lobe developed until you're 25 my frontal lobe was developed at seal team one like that's it yeah and then it that's just like boom boom boom so when I left it was definitely strange I would say a huge piece that I had that was very lucky was I had jiu jitsu so I had friends that weren't jiu jiu jitsu which I had no friends that weren't jiu jiu jutsu that weren't team guys

So I had team guys. If I wouldn't have team guys, if I wouldn't had jih Tzu friends, I would have been not really having anybody to hang out with her, do anything. But I had the, so I had the gym. I had victory, you know, coming in here every day. Guess what we're doing. We're sweating. We're working. We're getting after it.

So you, and there's team guys, by the way, here at the gym. Yeah. So it was all kind of, sure, there was a disruption because you pull out that, that one chunk of your life. But everything else kind of filled it in pretty quick. but you just straight uprooted to Florida. Yeah. Yeah, it was July 2016.

I went on Terminal leave. July 2016, offload in the moving van at 10 o'clock in the morning in Florida. And I'm sitting there going on, what the hell that I just do? Because it's like 82, feels like 820.

You know, it's just like, you've got to be kidding me. Thankfully, you get used to it very quickly. So yeah, so I did that contracting bit for about a year. It did a couple other little side things with some friends, you know, like some taught some cops how to do a dive soup thing with their,

you know, like in Tampa. And then I got approached by actually a prior team guy, 1980, 1990s era team guy who is the president of a company. Also like my era. Yeah. And so he runs a company out there

and he asked me if I would consider interviewing for research and development job. And I did and then they brought me on. And I worked there for about four years. years and I was doing research and development. What that looks like in the parachute manufacturing world is, um, it's kind of like a very business resume way of saying I'm a crash test dummy, um, for testing parachutes as a test jumper, um, for the, that organization. And so we would do new projects, wherever, um, government solicitations would come up and then we would respond to it.

And then we would, I would work with the manufacturers and developing, um, a new system for whatever the curtailed the solicitation. All right. What's the most wazoo, dumb ass thing that you did when you're doing that job? Well, I'm still doing that job, though. So, okay, what's the most wazoo dumbass thing that you do? Let me ask you this. Do you ever jump, do you ever test a reserve parachute with a third parachute? Yeah, not all that often because there's like there's that put it on a belly band or something.

You just, you hook it up to chest rings and so it's all right here. Yeah. I mean, it's not that like sketchy at all. But, and then so I left that company in August of 21 and I wasn't sure what I was going to do. started my own LLC, just like everybody supposed to do or does. And then I got a call from one of the manufacturers that I've been working with, and they asked me to come on. So I've been with them for coming up on three years.

And I do kind of the same thing, but I'm at the manufacturer. So I'm in the engineering shop with the project leads that are, you know, on the autocat and on the computer designing parachutes and making changes things to it. But being a test jumper nowadays is not like, I hope it's going to work. It's going to work. It's just a matter of how well it's going to work or what are some of the problems with it. So, so nothing too sketchy. How many cutaways you have right now?

Oh, maybe like 30 or 40. How often do you cut away purposefully? Could you want to test something else? Not that often. Yeah, not that. It's like if we're going to test something like that, it's going to be really meticulous. And it would be like a whole team kind of gets involved.

So a team about four or five people get involved as far as like making sure all the checks and balances are done. So it is a really thorough process. And they like to, they say that if at any point you, you are not comfortable doing this, you do not have to do it. So this is like you can volunteer yourself off of it really quick. So, but I get a lot of experience with, a lot of exposure with, you know, military units.

And that's where I get to kind of keep my sanity a little bit, is that I still get to be around the guys. And that's great. You know, like I said, I'm, I know that I'm not, I've aged out. I'm not part of the assault force, right, anymore. And that's, that's okay. Now my, my role now is a lot,

real similar to when I was an EOD guy on the assault. course was I'm I'm here to basically serve you know something a little bit bigger than myself I'm here to basically help make equipment develop equipment that's safe and effective so that way these guys can use it to go say rescue an American hostage someday so that's my like my can my service has been continued by that and that's how I frame what I'm doing for a living yes it's a lot of fun and I love it you know and enjoy it and the way I looked at it was when I was getting ready to retire this 20 year span I go back to what that senior chief had told me was like, hey, you're going to have this really big resume of all this experience. And so I looked at it and said, yes, I got to do all these

great things. I have all these qualifications and these different experiences. Instead of trying to recreate this, I'm just going to pick what I liked the most. And I'm just going to do that. And so far it's been about eight years riding that one out. So damn. Now, at some point, And I forget exactly when it was, you went through like a pretty rough patch with, well, I know you went through a rough patch as far as like marriage goes. What was going on there? So, you know, when, you know, post 2006 with Mark, with Mark Dine, I mean, I was standing right next to him. And so I process like, you know, why me? like why not like why did or not like why him why not me um and then because i i just kept working

and just doing so many different things throughout the rest of my time in that i never really stopped to reflect i could get pissed and just be angry that was no problem i could be you know i could be abrasive that was a really easy emotion to act on but when things finally shut down and it was silent around me, then that's when like the darkness started to creep in. So we got to Florida in the summer of 2016 and it was just struggling with not a not a whole lot of self-compassion. Like I I'm not supposed to be here, you know. And so when I married, when I met Christy and we got married and things were great and I was, you know, came back from that deployment in 2006. She was everything. She solved everything because, I mean, and you know

what it was like or even what it is like. It's like, I'm having a bad day and just a smile, just the words, just the empathy, just the there, the compassion, took it all away. So now that I'm going through this stuff, she's not able. I'm not letting her basically take that away. And so I built up some resentment toward her. And then through no fault of her own, just through all through mine. And then in November of 2017, I had come back from a work trip and I left her. And so we split in December of 2017 and it rocked the kids. And it's something that I just, I can never do that again. I never see my kids face when I told them that I was leaving. And so I left and I just continued to work and I was just working and doing as much I could. I stayed close.

Is there yelling and screaming? Is there like, or you just full freaking no emotion mode? No, there's no, I mean, it was never explosive. And I thankfully, I never crawled into a bottle. You know, I never turned into that. It was never, there was no, yeah, there was no yelling and screaming and fighting like that. It was just, that was done. And, yeah.

So I went and got some. and and in your mind again I'm trying to think of this from someone that's listened to us right now that maybe could be able to go oh I I feel that too in your mind you're just thinking this is a dead end or like I just I didn't like who I had become and I it's like I had this this life that I was I was going through and it was draft you know it was it was upended and I'm just I'm I I don't know how to take responsibility for it. I don't know if this, I just don't like who I am. I don't like who I've become. Yeah, what I've created is good, you know, family and we're financially fine. I'm doing what you're supposed to do is as a man in the household is support and protect. But I just, it wasn't, there was nothing I did that was going to be fulfilling. Where I, where I could sit there and say, well, if I just do this, then this will happen. I was it was just done I was done and if something had happened to where I had died like no problem totally good with it I remember hearing that you split up and I was just like oh I was so I was so surprised and like looking back you know to be like hey dude like if I'd have reached out and been like at least because I didn't of course the loser over here but but

like, hey man, what's going on? You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Because it was very shocking. Because whenever I was around you, you two, it was like kind of like a, kind of like a little fairy tale scenario. I mean, that's what it always, I was, this was like fairy tale just turned into a straight fairy tale from my perspective turned into like nightmare. You know, what's funny is it she would have probably said the exact same thing that it was.

It was just fairy tale. And then all of a sudden I came home and she asked me, she said, said, hey, I just want to check in to see how things are going like with us. And I looked at her and said, I'm leaving you. And then her whole world crumbled. She had no idea. So, because I just kept it in. I just wasn't talking because I didn't, I didn't trust myself to have any conversations.

I didn't, I didn't want to. And I just wanted to go off and figure out on my own. You know, then about a year and a half later, I went and got some help, um, worked through some things. And then about six, seven months later, um, so December, of 2019. She's always a University of Florida Gator fan, so I bought her, you know,

was taking her and the kids to a UF Gator game. And we made a little stop and I bought her a new, or you know, a newer four explorer because she loved four explorers and hers was falling apart. And she was just like, what the hell is going on? So that was like me tapping into like when we first met, because it was kind of the romantic things that I did when we first met, right?

that I hadn't been, I hadn't been motivated to do. And so, yeah, a couple months later, we got back together. So we've been back together since February 2020. Oh, so you're back in the game. Oh, yeah, it's been a great four years. Yeah, it's been awesome. Yeah. And you know, what's funny was that I looked at other couples that had that family, you know,

together what I could see on the surface. I mean, it was inspirational. It's like, man, I want that. You know, I want that. I had that, but I didn't know how to face all of this, this darkness. And I finally learned how to have some self-compassion and forgive myself for being so resentful and just dark, you know. And so, yeah, kind of came around and it's been, it's been a great, I don't feel like,

I don't feel like I'm a building under construction with scaffolding around it, all this, so much anymore, you know, not exactly a finished piece of art or anything, but, you know, It's always, I accept that it's always a work in progress, but I'm not closed for repairs anymore. You've been doing some writing, and I was looking at your Instagram. I'm going to read some of this. I look at my hands and think,

fuck, what these hands have been through is beyond measure. The things they've done, the things they've seen, they're old, they're scarred. My hands have provided for me and others. they are witness to everything I've seen and done, the good and the horrific. They've been there for my birth. They've held others' hands in times of despair. They've brought people together and ripped them apart.

My hands have been clenched fists in the face of victory and defeat. They've played rock paper scissors and thumb wrestled with a child. They've saved my life and also nearly killed me countless times. These hands have been above the earth and below the ground in the dirt, snow, water, fire, in the wind and through the clouds. These hands have been covered in blood. They've saved life and taken life. They've held death. They've given life.

They've prevented pain and caused pain. These hands have destroyed lives and healed. others. They have shaken violently from fear and anger. They've applauded and fist-bumped friends and strangers. They've dragged dead bodies in the street and pushed friends across the finish line. They've embraced with love and pushed away with fear. They've made things happen and not happen. They've shaken other hands and greeting after making deals and also ending friendships. They've waved hello for the first time and waved goodbye for the last time. They've saluted people, flags, and the coffins of my friends.

These hands have pulled triggers, grenade pins, and smashed people's faces in. My hands are destroyers and healers. The same hands that have nourished a baby and provided life. These hands are worn and ragged. They are tired and sore. They've held her face as she looked into my heart. These hands have felt the beating heart of someone they loved and felt the final heartbeat of someone they loved.

They lift, they pull, they drag, they throw, they struggle. They've been through heartbreak and triumph. They try to nurture my heart when they hold. my face and catch my tears. I look at my hands and I can see everything. These hands are the truest part of me. They are the worst of me and the best of me. They hold my story.

I feel like, you know, obviously I've written a bunch. And I feel like it's very helpful. And I have, yeah, I realized it. kind of going through losing guys right because i oftentimes ended up being the guy given um you know some kind of a eulogy some kind of speech memorial services and i got into the mode where when someone died i would like just start writing because i knew what was common and but what i realized is i it kind of made me feel better um and when stoner died it was like probably three or four months later and my son who was really close to Seth and he was

probably like 14 or something at the time but and he's not like he's he's a he's a he's a tough kid and he came home from school one day and he and he would know he doesn't complain about anything like especially to me because he's not getting any you know any sympathy for me so he's never going to be like oh you know I need this or I need that but he said um when I'm in school I'm having trouble working because I keep thinking about Seth and I could see like he was sad right because I mean dude Seth took him so when I wasn't around he was like and he I would love to say Seth was like an uncle Tim but he was more like a brother because Seth was kind of like a 14 year old himself in many ways so so

they were more like bros than they were some sort of, you know, older brother or situation or uncle situation. But he was, you know, so my son was clearly this was bothering him. Of course. And I said, hey, all right. This is what I want you to do. Write a letter to Seth's mom and explain to him, explain to her why you miss Seth and what he meant to you.

and he did it. And he never talked to me about it again, you know, in a negative way. And I've always told people like that's one of the things that I think is very beneficial is, it's a way to detach from your emotions, right? Because you write the words down, you have to process what you're thinking, and then you see them on the page. You think that's been helpful to you? Oh.

And it's like, yeah. I mean, that's great advice to have to have. given him for sure but writing has and it and it snuck up on me I'm always been you know I try to be very grammatically correct because I like that's like that style of writing and it's like when I went when I went to school I was really you know I learned a lot about you know at proper writing and the best I can I'm still you know a caveman you know look at the fire I've created but I really do love writing and because I try I always try to keep it in you know in the first person and with me as as

as the as the main sort of antagonist of the like both the protagonist that both roles because it is about me and it's a way for me to be able to keep in touch with my emotions because while I can sit there and I can't if I'm not you know communicating anything it's one thing when you're having a conversation with somebody and you are basically going to get some type of response this way no one's responding and it's just me and it's funny because I'll write and I'll go oh, there needs to be a comma there. But I'm saying anybody's going to read it, but it's just for me to actually get it out. And sometimes it's, sometimes it's a story. Sometimes it's a dream or an interpretation of it. It's just anything, but it is getting it out there. I was working with this coach a couple of years ago,

and I just lost a buddy of mine. This is back in, uh, in 2021. And she was, uh, saying, she's like, you, uh, you guys are, you're so, you're so similar in so many ways. you can just you're just you don't play checkers you play chess and with your words you're like I'm going to ask you something like how do you feel and then you're like oh well this this is this and she goes stop feel and we're like doing this on zoom and she's like you know just feel and then she goes well how do you feel and then I would respond it she says stop she goes it's a it's a trick

question you're not supposed to respond you're supposed to sit there and just feel you don't put words to it there shouldn't be an emotion is an emotion we we have created words on that to describe how we feel. I just sit there and feel. And so I do that and then I write. So I sit there and I just don't even, like whether I'm, you know, sad, struggling, happy, whatever it is, I'll just sit there and then just go to work. And then I'll put it to paper.

And I usually, very rarely do I ever change anything. It's almost always the same. Sometimes I'll write about Mark. Sometimes I'll write about me. Sometimes I'll write about the kids. Sometimes I'll write about, you know, God and spirituality and whatever it is and philosophy. anything and just nothing. Sometimes it's just free association.

I'll just go. And that's it. I can do it at any time because I'll do it on my phone. I don't care. Yeah, it's not pen to paper, but it's like, I will just go. My wife and I were driving like up to Northern Florida. This is like a year ago.

And we're getting off the freeway. And I said, hey, can you take over driving? And she's like, you okay? I said, yeah, I just need to write. Like I got something and I don't want it to leave. And she's like, sure. And so I just, I didn't, we were 20 minutes from it, but I didn't want to lose it.

It meant so much to me. It's just like, just go. And so I really think it's a really good form of self-therapy because sometimes you like what you're right. Sometimes you don't. So can you really be your own worst critic? I mean, because we usually are, but nobody's going to see this. No, there's no judgment, no pressure, no expectations.

Just do it. And that's the work that I put in because it's a choice. Did someone advise you to do that or did you figure it out? She did, the coach I was working with, but I didn't start writing. Did you say coach? What is it? So I was doing some basically some work with like Nick Norris and he was working with like basically some coaches for guys like post service.

Got it. You know, just basically some talk therapy stuff. And it's like, you know, she's not, you know, a therapist. It's a coach. So, you know, it's not all the state rules that go with it. So we just worked with her for about four sessions. And we're just chatting getting to know each other. And she had recommended it and like, yeah, okay, writing, cool.

Whatever. Sure. But between work, the gym, seeing my kids, seeing the world through my kids' eyes and writing, like, life is pretty good right now. And I really like it. So I don't have a five-year plan. So, but I did stop surfing. So I chilled out on that. So that's good.

Wait, why is it good that you stop surfing? Because you went to Florida? Yeah. Well, what's a Florida? Yeah. Isn't there, aren't you, what are you? 40 minutes from the coast? Like 20.

Oh, okay. But it's also New Sumerda Beach is like the shark bite capital world. So I'm good. Yeah. Because like if you get if you get attacked by a shark off the way I, this is where my brain works, right? If I get attacked by a shark off the coast of San Clement Island while I'm surfing out there on a work trip, probably not going to make it. I get bit by a shark in Florida. I'm going to be out of work for like eight months.

I'm not going to die. So it's like, you know, this is how it works for me. So it's really not worth it. You know, I mean, very rarely is a surf really good. yet like, you know, Southern California quality. So, but you also, well, that's awesome that you're like in a good spot. And, uh, you kind of had to be because you did that, um, the, the seven skydives in seven continents in seven days.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I was approached in, uh, June, July of 2021 about this concept. And I was asked if I could be sort of like the kind of the expedition lead, um, on basically helping plan all of these. different locations. My response was, man, you're biting off a lot. Like, that's a very huge puzzle enigma to try to piece together, especially all seven

continents in seven days. But what did this do? This gave me some, that gave me a purpose. Because, I mean, that's what it is, man. I mean, for us, for us men that we get to an age, it's like, what are we looking for? I just want to be valued. I don't need to be, like, loved and adored. I want to be valued and respected.

And you give me a mission and I'll do anything to get there. And so this was that opportunity. And so you get to be around some other like-minded individuals, military, prior military guys. And so we started planning, you know, what, 18 months, 18-month planning cycle for it, a couple training camps. And we were looking for a nonprofit to support.

Because we had, you know, we had support from sponsors like Black Rifle, coffee company, you know, Andy Stump's podcast, and that we had some other, you know, ancillary sponsors. but we wanted to support it for a nonprofit. And I had done some work with Folds of Honor just kind of here and there, doing some jump stuff with them over the years.

And so I approached Larry, who kind of runs a lot of the fundraising for it. And we got in some discussions, and then we agreed to, we all agreed to support with Folds. And what I loved about Folds was that, you know, they're not biased. You don't have to have been, you know,

a Green Beret, you know, an EOD guy, an AV, CLE. Like, we support, you know, whoever. And what they do is they do education scholarships for deceased service members or disabled veterans for their dependents' kids' wives. So they do private education scholarships for private school or college or, you know, things like that. So that to us seemed like it made the most sense because we didn't, we had, you know, a Ranger, a couple team guys, Ranger, Ranger Marine Scout sniper. We had a JTF2 Canadian guy. So we wanted to really open it up to where it wasn't just going to be for one specific. foundation.

Yeah, and it went off, it went off pretty good. I mean, it was, like I said, it was something post-military that gave all of us something to, like, buy in and believe in. It'd be kind of hard to go and eat a burger on seven comments in seven days, you know what I'm saying? Like, just doing that alone would be pretty impressive. It was, it was, it was hard. I mean, we spent a week in Antarctica because when you go to Antarctica, you have to stay

there for a week. Wait, why is that? Because, I mean, it's a giant piece of high. on the planet and planes don't just go in and out of there all the time so we flew there and they I think it's a 737 that we flew in from Punta Raneus Chile that flies about a four and a half hour flight down to Union Glacier and it's a two mile long ice runway so when you're freaking when you get yeah it's really cool so when you land in a plane you know the plane lands on any normal runway hits its

breaks well this one doesn't it has to power down and slow down because it's ice did you say two miles yeah it's just two mile stretch of runway it's crazy so the guys It's called ALE, Antarctica Logistics and Expeditions, the company, one of the companies that runs Union Glacier Camp. I mean, they do all sorts of stuff. Like in this December, they'll have the Antarctica Marathon. Expedition teams will go down there to do expeditions out of the South Pole, cross-country skiing, you know, and there's like penguin, you know, excursion, stuff like that. But it's really a lot of really cool people that run that camp down there. So Mike McDowell, Tim McDowell, and then the rest of their team, it's pretty awesome.

So then you hit that and then it was just like. Yeah, so our clock started. Airplanes airplanes. Yeah, so the clock started. I think it was on January 9th. We did our jump into Antarctica an hour and a half later. We're on the 737 flying Chile. So we get to Chile, do the jump in Santiago, two continents down in like 14 hours.

Oh, absolutely. Flat of Miami getting ready to execute the North America continent, FAA, no-Tam system goes down. So the whole commercial travel is shut down, hadn't been shut down. down since September 11th, 2001. So like we're flying commercial. What are we gonna do here? So guy, it was cool. It was a really good, really a good example

of why we put the kind of team together. We didn't put the team together because they were the best jumpers in the world. Some guys had, you know, less than 200 jumps. We put the team together because they're so resourceful. And so guys just went to work. And so got funding, got some support. We ended up chartering a plane from Miami executive

to Barcelona. Damn. So that's expensive. Yeah. So that part I was like, just as long as we get, I worked the Barcelona piece, not getting the Barcelona piece. So we got to Barcelona. We spent about five and a half hours on the Europe continent, jump there and then bounced

down to Cairo, jumped over the pyramids. And then from the pyramids, from Cairo to UAE, jumped in Abu Dhabi. And then bounced down to Perth and did the last skydive in Perth. That's six, I think we did it in six. days, six hours. Got it done. Yeah. And then the documentary was released in May.

There were some screeners like in New York, Tampa, L.A., a couple in Texas. And then they were doing some stuff in Colorado. So I'm not sure if it's going to get put on a streaming service or anything, but a lot of the information. Yeah. So that's how it's going. But we did really good. We raised a lot of money for Folds, did some Fox News bits and things like that. Awesome.

So, yeah, it's been a really cool experience and journey for that. And that's where it was like that gives. that gave me something really to occupy myself for about 24 months to like mission oriented you know all the well you know all the while doing you know a full time couple full time gigs but that's where i've seen a lot of the guys that i'm still around that you know prior team guys especially um be successful at home because they've been able to find some value so a good friend of mine is a prior east coast guy His name is Greg Andrews. He lives in Tucson and does a lot of con.

We do a lot of work together. And he runs, he came out to San Diego to get MERT treatment, that magnetic EEG treatment. Okay. You know what MIR is? Yeah. It's like magnets around your head, right? Yeah.

And so it's like, I think it was like a 12, seven or 12 week program he did. And he saw a huge boost in his anxiety gone. It's a lot of PTSD treatment, TBI treatment. And so he started his own in Tucson. And it's called Brainwave Now. And so he's working that hard and he's trying to marry up with nonprofits. But what my point is is that when guys get out and they find a purpose that's serving others instead of just like, what about me? That is going to be what's going to be the service part.

That's what's going to make you feel full of gratitude is that, you know, serving others. And that's kind of the adage is that, you know, continuing to serve those who served. And that's what I'm just trying to do. Yeah, I think that's, um, with you were talking about Debbie Lee earlier. And I think that's one of the things that's just for her to just go into full service and support mode. And, you know, starting from the very first phone call from the tactical operation center

that Laif made to her and the first thing out of her mouth was like, how are you guys doing? And like, it was crazy. And she stayed in that mode the whole time with America's mighty warriors. just doing the hyperbolic chambers. Have you done that yet? No. It's hard to get like 12 weeks to it. We have mutual friends that have done it and it has changed their lives.

Wow. Change their lives and they're, I'm trying to get some of them to come on here, but, you know, not everyone wants to go on a podcast. So it's understandable. But their lives have been changed, like drastically changed. Wow. So that's awesome. And I think that's, you know, what she's focused on, right?

Yeah. She needed a new mission. And she found it with America's mighty warriors. So that's awesome. Yeah. And then so what are you up to? So what's going on right now? What's the current, what's the current Nick Cush getting after?

Well, I'm doing, so I'm in between contracts right now. So I just basically will be, you know, contract through my own LLC and just do, like, I kind call it advising as opposed to instructing but sometimes I'll play like a military free fall instructor role in coaching and things like that so it's been I've been extremely grateful you know for a lot of the way the path is shaped up right you know because these guys will contact me and and soul source me directly so it's incredibly you know it's humbling you know to still be a part of the community to a certain degree right but that's what I'm doing and then as well as working for a manufacturing company that it's called performance designs located into land and they've been around 40 plus years making

parachutes and so I test jump parachutes for their project leads and their engineers and we basically try to put forth end products for military clients that's awesome and the kids are rocking and rolling kids are crushing you know Jackson's 15 he's taller than he's taller than my wife and he picked up golf again he's going to try out for the high school golf team he's playing the trombone for the marching band my daughter is 11 and Jocelyn is crushing it with art and soccer and they're getting ready to go back to school so she's not stoked because she's going to middle school

so you know but yeah and then I do a lot of a lot of trips to Europe you know working with clients out there and so I'm going to take Jackson next year when I go to Norway and get him packing parachutes and do you know helping out how many jumps you got right now? A little over 13,000.

Damn, dude. Damn, that's what I'm going to take Echo for Tandem skyd out. Yeah, that's real. That's real. Is that get us up to speed? Were we there? Like, we're good?

Yeah. Freaking, and where can people find you? I mean, like my, my extensive Instagram, I think is Nick Cush, 237. What's 237? It's an old, not a lot of people know this. It's kind of funny. So the movie The Shining. Okay, so there was a, there was a room 237.

Yeah, there was a documentary that was called Room 237, and it's about the room, the Jack Nicholson's character. It basically wasn't supposed to go in. He goes in, and then he goes in. And all of the great things that he thinks, like the materialistic and wonderful things think that he thinks that he wants in life, all of a sudden turns to the worst and darkest things in life.

So to me, like I resonated with it because of the shit that I was going through. It's like, okay, here's this contrast. and I'm always looking externally and then finally to be able to turn internally and then that's where I can start to forgive myself still show myself some self-compassion and grow from that so it's always kind of a reminder you know there you go dude I just got the the nugget right there layers right there layers and then uh how do you say d land because I got it in my head so I was looking at your stuff and I was like oh d land uh high performance d land HP and I thought it

like you were saying hey it's skydiving so we're like de land like getting away from the land like we're going to decouple from this thing i thought it was like a play on words like d land we're going to get away from land but that's actually just the place with you saying that it might actually stick with everyone that lives in de land so like it used to be called uh persimmon i think is what it used to be called and uh henry de land um and whatever you know in the early 19 early 1900s had basically then sort of conquested the area and made it into like the citrus, you know, orange plate, orange grove place.

And so Henry DeLand, long hair, long beard, and now it's DeLand. And in the 90s, they used to call it Dead Land because nobody was there. But it's skydiving Mecca for- Well, it's funny because like when I went, that's what I thought. And I mean, and it is,

it's like this like manufacturing epicenter. It's like where all these guys in the 70s and 80s just landed was to do it here. But what I'd say it really is closer to, It's like it's a middle of them kind of a middle of America It's Florida but it's home to Stetson University Which is the Stetson Hatters And it's a baseball college

You know it's like they had they've had like three or four You know pitchers go you know go to the pros out of there And yeah pretty simple town and it's uh it's cool It's a nice little old town and kids love it and I mean if you get used to the heat It's okay but and mosquitoes It's not they're not that bad you know are they not No they're not that bad Dude I don't know when I was a kid is going

of Florida. It was like some parts of Florida. And I'm talking to you know coming down from Maine which they say I'm sure they say it's in a lot of states but they say like the mosquitoes the main state bird. Yeah. Because I'm freaking I mean like we put a pool in and I did put the big giant screener. Exactly. You know it's funny because I'll post pictures and people are like hey man so like do you have to clean that glass? No man it's a screen you know if it were glass it would be a greenhouse. Yeah. Right on so you can get so you can be found out you can get this this shirt that you wear. Oh, yeah.

Skydive Mars. Yeah. So this was kind of a play on, you know, Elon's. Yeah. Elon's Occupy Mars. And then the guys of black rifle did a thing called caffeine Mars.

And I said, well, I want to skydive Mars. So with, you know, Johnny Kim and I being so close. And, you know, I said put a good word in for me. So he's got a t-shirt. So if he can get us to Mars, I want to jump into Mars. And people get those t-shirts at Delandh.h. Yeah, Delandh.h.h.com. And that's where it's at.

That's where it's at. Right on. Echall, Charles. You got any questions? Yeah, yeah, I got some more. Oh, cool, cool. Actually, you mentioned Greg Andrews. Yeah.

I'm assuming this is the same Greg Andrews, I know. Tall handsome dude. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. You know his nickname is Mr. Wonderful. Did you know that? I feel like I did know that.

How do you know him? He was one of the first guys I met when I was San Diego through my friends. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. So, we were pretty close, actually, for a long time. I mean, he moved away and stuff. All right. Well, I hope it's the same guy.

Yeah, I think so. Well, he's a prior East Coast guy. Was he here first? a while, like in 2001. He might have been. That's a long time ago. He might have been. I'm not sure his career.

Because I only met him, I only met him about 2012. Oh, yeah, yeah. Actually, I think he did go to the East Coast. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Good guy. Go back to EOD days. So what's the loophole charge? Oh. I forgot this is like, this is where echo rounds off.

This is where echo rounds off. The corner is a lot of people, a lot of people just press stop and they're carrying on with their day right now. But there's a couple people that are going to listen in. Or they fast forward to this port. No, he gets some love, dude. Whenever I make a little snide comments like that, first of all, there's people that just think I'm like a mean person

because I hassle echo. But then they'll all be like, no, we're still listening. We're still listening. We like hearing echoes, you know, concepts and questions. So I think it's good, though, because it's like, you know, you get to talk into someone like me and it's like, we just gloss over acronyms. So he's like, oh, I want to write that one. Yeah.

Yes, sir. Got to understand. So a loop. Do you do know that he asked Admiral McRaven? Oh, man. He goes, do you have to be in the Navy to be an admiral? And God bless Admiral McRaven. You know, I was like trying to hold.

I was like embarrassed. I was going to smack him. I was going to, you know, but I'm like, and Admiral McRaven like a pro. He's like, well, yeah, you know, Echo, yep. I guess you could be in the Coast Guard. But, you know, generally speaking, you do have to be in the Navy to be an Admiral.

Yeah. And I don't even know what you were thinking, to be honest with you. Well, first off, I didn't know that. some people in the world don't know that I'm one of those probably was at one point one of those two folks this was like 400 podcasts deep this is after we've had multiple adoles on here but it's all good it's all good okay there you go so loophole charge is basically so if I've got a wall I've got a wall and I want to be able to basically put a hole you know say this big through it and I will assess what's it made out of is it mud is it concrete is it going to is it reinforced and that will determine how much of a charge

I put in because the idea is I'm trying to get a hole that looks like, say, like damage from the outside so I can see out. So snipers can actually see through them. So I'm basically blown a loophole that looks about that big. Sniper would have standoff so you can't see on the outside that there's a gun in that hole. Right, right. Okay. All right.

And one thing I'm just going off. You mentioned, or you said the expression, take a knee, right? Is there anything behind that besides the normal take a knee? Well, almost like you said it, like it was like part of some real official like procedure. Well, if you're, if you see an EOD guy take a knee, right. He's either, you know, tying a shoe, tired, or he's working on something that you don't want to be anywhere near of. Okay. You know, anywhere near.

So that's what I was. So it is kind of like a thing, though? Yeah. And I would tell guys, if you see me take a knee, like just give a few steps. Because, you know, what I would, you know, this is going through when I was, especially at trade at working that EOD portion at. was it was so important that you guys got so proficient at training your guys because when you go to work on something, just for the love of God,

make sure that you don't get someone else killed because of your decisions and your actions on. Like that's your number one responsibility is them, not you, you know, put them first. Yeah, speaking to that,

I was talking to Laif, and he knew you were coming on and he was like, yeah, ask him about the time that I think him and someone else were like, hey, we need to breach this door. and you're like, hey, I got it. And he said they're like standing there

and you put a breach on the door and then you go running past that. I mean, yes, but there was because I came up and there was no room for me. It's like, well, you guys want to be the closest, you know? Yeah, that's what's going to happen. I mean, yeah, I did just like to over-emphasize the blast wave, you know, propagating through everybody.

It was like when Tony asked me to disable a car, I'm like, okay. Uh-huh. He was surprised what two blocks of C4 did on the steering column. And so was the ISR. They were like, what the hell was that? Didn't that do some of the roof of the... The building, no, but it took the hood of the car.

It blew it across the street. And I came back, and I was surprised that the car looked like a canoe. It was, I mean, it was really as impressed. I mean, so Tony's like, fuck. She said to disable the vehicle. Hey, chief, vehicle's been disabled. Yeah, yeah. All right, last one.

Okay, so me being a what do you call the layperson, if you will. So you know how in the movies you got the bombs and they get real sophisticated, you know. Is it like that? You know, like, you don't know, don't, you know, clip the red wire. I knew it was coming. Come on, real. Yeah, I knew it was coming. No.

But it can be. You would, you know, the guys that got really good at it. I glossed over it a little bit was like the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, you know, back in the 70s, you know, when they were really. at heavily in conflict, they would do a lot of trick-fuckery with their wiring systems because they knew they were going up against British bomb techs.

And so it would be like guys would have to study wiring. And it wasn't about a color. It was about where it was going and where it was going to end up. So, but yeah. You've watched McGiver? Yeah, yeah. Okay, we're the same age, by the way.

So I assume, you know, that might sound like a crazy question to some people, but we're the same age. So there's this one. I forget the name of it, but it's like a real sophisticated bomb. Are you familiar with that one? No.

Oh, it's too bad, but it's too bad because I think you'd very much enjoy it. You know? Do you get it done? You got it done. His friend, it's a long story, but his friend died because it turns out there's more than one.

It's a whole thing. That's why I think you'd enjoy it. All right. Good to see you, brother. Yeah. You too, man. Good Echo Charles? Yes, sir.

I'll hit you up, you know, if that I mean anymore. McGiver memes back and forth. Come on, right. Right off. Yeah. Well, before we close out, at least for me, it's like I want to thank you for, you know, for reaching out and having me on. I mean, it's like being part of like a lot of these things that, you know, I try to basically still, as opposed to just, you know, doing the contract things and working, you know, for myself to be part of the community, you know, like we went to France.

I think you reached out to me right before I went to France for the 80-year anniversary of D-Day is I think the further away I get from, you know, the service, from my service, I tend to appreciate it a lot. little bit more. You know, I think I miss it. You know, you know, you know, there's, there's times where it's like, man, I can't wait to get the hell out of here. But then when they're like, hey, clean your cage out, so-and-so needs it. You're like, so it kind of stings a bit. But finding that value within what I'm doing, you know, with my life. And so I really appreciate what you guys are doing and what you've done, you know, especially as of recently with a lot of carrying on, not just stories that you were part of, of guys that you knew, but going back in time. And it's like you're you're cracking up in this time capsule so people can actually be exposed to it

And so I have a lot of gratitude for that. So I really appreciate it and Yeah, it's a lot of people would talk about that and that's when you know when when your name comes up in some of my circles It's that I didn't know this you know you do a lot of stuff with Patton and like the about face thing that was one of your first starters You know that we really was seemed to be very influential So I appreciate it. So thanks for having me out Yeah man. Well thanks for joining us bro. I appreciate it.

And thanks for sharing your lessons learned. And obviously, thanks for your service to the Navy, to EOD, and to the teams. Most important, thanks for protecting my teammates, our brothers from harm and at great risk to your own life. Thanks for keeping them safe. And thanks for living, truly living today, to honor. the ones that we lost. Thanks, brother. Thank you.

And with that, Nick Cush has left the building. Another individual, another human being who stepped up over and over and over and over again and kept getting after it. So awesome to have him on here.

Awesome to hear his perspective. And we talked for like an hour prior to and then another hour. Another hour after. Yeah. So we'd probably owe another, you know, another recording of more things. But this is like when you doing the podcast like that with Nick is almost like writing

down the outline of a story. Mm-hmm. Right? So you're going to get, you kind of got the major moving pieces. Yeah. But, dude, there's so many, like, details in there. Yeah. that could be expanded on and give color.

Because he definitely experienced a lot of very dynamic things. I mean, he could write like a little, you could write a chapter about, look, in extreme ownership, we wrote chapters about like one thing. Well, we did a lot of those things. Nick did a lot of those things. So you could start getting his perspective on stuff.

would be awesome. Anyways, awesome to have them on here. Yeah. So getting after it. He was getting after it. Speaking of getting after it. Oh, uh, Countdown.

I was trying to remember something. The name of the McGiver episode with the bombs called Countdown. Look into it. I remember, what was McGiver's background supposed to be? His background was actually super, it was like science, math, like that kind of stuff.

He never carried a gun. He was like a trouble. He was a trouble. professional troubleshooter. At first for the government, then for then it kind of morphed into the secret like foundation called the Phoenix Foundation.

And he would just go out to like certain places. You know so much dumb stuff. Yep. Because it makes sense if he would have been if he would have been an EOD guy. Sure. He would have made sense. Right.

Yeah. If he had a EOD background. Yeah. If he had a EOD, he was Navy. Oh, this guy was Navy. Yeah. Kind of like Thomas Magnum. Magnum P.

Yeah. Oh, hell yeah. You know what his background was. I was right. Navy SEAL day. Yeah. And T.C. T.C.

He's a Seawolf pilot. I'm pretty sure he was a Seawolf pilot. Oh, for real? Yeah. I didn't know that. I think the other dude was supposed to be special force. Rick.

Mm. I think he's supposed to be special forces. Yeah. Jack Carr. We need to consult with Jack Carr. Because Jack Carr knows what's up with Magna. Well, Magnum PI, that was when I was really young because that's a Hawaii show too. And then they did a remake that I tried to get into kind of, you know,

what everybody. I feel like the, you know how when they do remakes, they change certain things, like kind of big things. You know, they have different takes, you know. Yeah, like the Higgins is now a girl. And then, you know, there's all these different changes, you know, where it kind of throws you off. You know, especially if you really like the old one, it just throws you off. So it just won't feel the same. But it was pretty good.

But anyway, yes, I dig it. Either way, Magnum P. Hell yeah. All day. Background fit. Suited him. Mm-hmm. private investigator now with kind of overqualified right yeah so yeah mcguiver but but you know how jack car

he'll post like clips from magnum p.i and you know when you're watching them when you're a kid they're just kind of like entertainment or whatever but jack kind of fires them up yeah you know what I mean I am with he's like this is the he's got one he wrote one it was like I think magnum p.i shoots somebody and he explains that this is one of the first you know direct gun violence in a TV show in history because you remember in the old days hey if a man and a woman were in bed

they had to have their feet on the floor you ever hear that standard? So in the old days maybe it was the 50s or something if a man and a woman were in bed in order to make it you know proper and not offensive overly sexually yeah not always they had to have their feet on the ground

so you see these scenes where there's like a foot on the ground but they're kind of in bed but yeah i forget what it was but yeah jack car he knows a lot about that kind of sort of he's all he's so into the i don't know what the name of that genre what's the name of the genre tom clancy and all that oh i don't know bro and what it's what terminal list is it's a genre oh bro it's like military adjacent thrillers or something like that. Yeah. But he read all those things growing up.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Do you know, that kind of stuff. But yeah. So, not me. I wasn't reading books growing up. No. Jack Carl was reading books.

I was not. I was an idiot. Good times. Was? Okay. Yeah. I am an idiot. Check.

Well, I do read books. I've read a ton of books now. But I didn't have that. I didn't have that gene, really. Yeah. You know, the book reading gene. I had the rock. Throwing gene.

I had the stick, you know, throwing gene. We'll just say you were a late bloomer. Let's say the genes were expressed a little late in life, and that's good. That's actually worked out great for all of us. So thank you for that. Speaking of things, working out, great for all of us. Working out's great for all of us. It is.

Look at you, dude. Look at you with your little foreshadowing. Good job, bro. We call it a segue. Nonetheless, Jocco, feel. Okay, what we're doing. Look, we're working out hard. Hopefully.

Bro, you asked me this morning why my, why my, eyes were red when I showed up here. I was like, well, I worked out. I heard of it. Yeah, I heard of it, bro. All right, we need some fuel for that. Get jacofuel. JoccoFuel.com.

Check it out. Also, you can go to jacofuel.com. Also, we're going into Walmart. So it should be by about September. We're in Walmart getting after it. Check that out. Also, we got a thing to reward people that are, let's say, consistent customers in the game, there's like loyalty.

I haven't thought of a cool name for it yet. We need some kind of a thing to call it. Yeah, yeah. We don't have that yet. But we got, if you go to joccofuel.com slash rewards, we just put little discount sales in there. If you need to get, if you order some stuff, we can support you ordering stuff so you can support yourself.

So that's what we're doing. Jocco fuel. You guys know the deal. Protein. Hydrate. God, hydrate. The protein's good. That mulk train.

So get yourself some. It's called the good flavor. No artificial sweeteners. That's the same with everything that we make. So check it out. Joccofuel.com. Also, we're at Wawa, vitamin shop,

GnC, military commissaries, Afees, Haniford, dash stores in Maryland, wake firm, shop bright, H.E.B. mayors.

Or sorry, Meyer. If you put an S on there, people are like, what are you doing, dude? Yeah, that's true. So Meyer,

Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Lifetime's Fitness. Shields, small gyms everywhere, Jitsu gyms, CrossFit gyms. Email.

J.F. Sales at joccofield.com. By the way, we're the official sponsor of, speaking of Jiu-Jitsu, we're the official sponsor of Craig Jones Invitational, where the real sponsorship should be orthopedic surgeons. Replacing ACLs.

Also, speaking of Jiu-Jitsu, you probably need rash guards for you J-Jitsu. First of all, we hope you're training J-J-J-J-Zu-T. You probably need a rash-guard. You probably need a ghee. Go to origin-usa.com. Get American-made goods. American-made jeans, American-made boots, American-made hoodies.

Just get your American-made gear. That's what we're doing. Go to origin-usa.com and get yourself the clothes that you need for on and off the mats of justice. Bro, I did that radio call today. Yeah, we're coming up to. Yeah, that sounded good, right? It worked good. Yes, it did.

You liked that, didn't you? I did like that. Yeah. Still do. Echo, Charles. Echo Charles. We need you in the front desk. Yeah, great work 100%.

I was going to do something tactical like we need fire support, but instead I sent you to the front desk right there. Thank you for that. Clean up in aisle four. Echo Charles, clean up in aisle four. I'm here to help. Whatever you need. Anyway.

Well, we know that you push the envelope when it comes to carrying your grocery. So occasionally, we're going to have a mishap. I'm trying to do the best they can over here. Also, Jocko's store. It's called Jocko Store. Jocco store.com, that's where you can get your discipline equals freedom shirts, hats, hoodies. We have socks coming soon.

I know. I said it before, but they're coming soon. They're coming. Here I was over here with a regular pair of freaking tube socks. I know, but you're the main guy who needs them. By the way.

How tall are the socks going to be? Two sizes. Crew socks, I think they're called the regular ones, right? And then the higher, the high ones that go up to the most of the tube socks, son. I'm going with both. I'm going with both.

Representing. I'm representing. Both. Hey, Bray, you're going to thank me when you go to the airport and you got to take off your shoes and everyone looking at your socks. And now you don't have to wear those freaking grandpa socks you always wear. Now you can wear some cool stuff and people will be happy. You see what I'm saying?

So yeah, you're welcome for that. Also, also, cert locker, S-H-U-R-T, like hurt, but shirt locker. That's a subscription scenario. You get a new shirt design every month. People like them, by the way. People do like them. That is true.

It's good observation. Have you, do you like the fact that you kind of, to have a medium not to express yourself in the world besides your video rare videos that you make occasionally once every two years on this microphone is that what you're saying yeah a little bit yeah thank you thank you talking about your shirt locker oh okay okay oh yeah I'm trying to give you a compliment oh you're trying to give me a compliment you sensitive no bro I call it I'm used to certain things you know the pattern interrupt I wasn't ready for it thank you today what's I I was about today

during the podcast with neck cushion here. What was it? I was harassing you about something. Some people get really like don't like that.

You got some protectors out there, bro. Yeah, well, you know, it's my people. Oh, yeah, the admiral thing you're talking about. That one's hard, bro. It's hard to not,

it's hard for me to not bring that up and chuckle. Did you always know that? Like when you were a kid before you joined the Navy, did you know the Admiral had to be a Navy guy or a Coast Guard?

Are you asking if I was born inherently this information? Yeah, exactly right. No. So at some point in your life. But as a 42-year-old man that has sat through. Cool. 350 military podcasts. Yeah.

You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the point is, and we'll always be, you're not born with information, just like leadership. Can I'm saying? You're not just born with it. At some point, you've got to learn this stuff. Okay.

I know now. You know what? Good. you learned there you go see anyway back to the shirt locker you design every month they're outside of the box a little bit but they still do represent discipline equals freedom you should put on a t-shirt do you have to be in the Navy to be an admiral maybe I will or the shirt will say you do have to be in the Navy to be an admiral see I'm saying educate the people you know instead of just

making jokes all the time hey man we could just put graphics on there we could educate the educate America educate the world really or both so unless it's all on Jocco store.com. So, you know, if you like something, check it out. If you like something, get something. How about that, Jock? Is that cool? Awesome. Hey, you need some steak in your life.

Maybe you need some burger, some ground beef in your life. Maybe you need just a straight bone-in ribby in your life. Maybe you need a beef hot dog in your life. Could be any of these things. Could be required, needed. That's why we have primalbeef.com and Colorado Craft Beef.

com the best quality steaks you're going to get you're a steak person um so there's rib steak and then there's rib eye when I go to the store or sometimes I'll see the difference what's the difference do you know I don't know what just a rib steak is yeah rib well to me it looks the same as a ribeye maybe slightly different but it looks the same in my opinion But I think there is a subtle difference. Otherwise, they wouldn't designate them like that. We'll check with the team. Maybe I'll like Leif Babin.

He's a barbecue person. We might just go to the source and just check with Colorado Craftbeef.com or primalbeef.com and say, hey, what's the deal with this scenario here? Rib steak. Rib steak. Huh. Interesting. I don't know.

I don't know. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also subscribe to jocco wonderground.com. Also subscribe to the YouTube channels. Jocko podcast channel Jocko podcast clips channel because echoes over there making clips Yeah, just making it happen

Look at you Also origin USA Channel also Jocco Fuel channel All good stuff Psychological Warfare flipside canvas Dot com Dakota Meyer Making cool stuff to hang on your wall A bunch of books

I've written a bunch of books about leadership You guys know what they are I've written a bunch of kids books I hope you know what they are Way of the Warrior Kid one, two, three, four, and five, by the way, movie coming. Don't wait till the movie.

Your kid's already wasted a year of their life if you wait for the movie right now. Get them the books. Besides, there's a different, there's a different quality when you're reading the books. You're going to get a thing that you won't get from the movie. There's some things you're going to get from the movie you won't get from the books.

Let's get all those things. Wade the Warrior Kid. Check it out. Also, Eschlam Front. We have a leadership consultancy. solve problems through leadership. We get the women's assembly. I will not be at that.

Unless you go on to Instagram and you tag Jamie Cochran and say, we want Jocko, even then I don't know if I'm going. I think I'm not going. Yeah, I could see how that could be maybe defeating the purpose a little bit. If you're rolling in. What if I just went for an hour? Then you'd be defeating the purpose for one hour. Well, echelon front, women's assembly, September.

11th through the 13th down in San Antonio, Texas. It's, I haven't been to it. But the reports that I've gotten have been awesome. So check that out. Also, we have a bunch of other events. We have the Dallas muster, October 16th through the 18th. And then, of course, we have a leadership consultancy where we go into your company and we work with your team to get them aligned and solve all their problems through leadership. Go to Eshlonfront.com.

for more information. Also, we have an online life training academy. Because there's skills that you need for life. There's skills that if you learn them, your whole life will get better. And we will teach you these skills. Go to extreme ownership.com and learn the skills that you need for life.

And if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families. You heard us talk about Mark Lee today. And you heard me talk about Mama Lee, Mark's mom. She runs an amazing charity organization that has helped out so many of America's mighty warriors With the treatment that she gets for them

And that's one of the many things that she does but if you want to donate or you want to get involved go to America's mighty warriors That org also Heroes and Horses.org taking our veterans up in the mountains Micah Fink helping them find their soul and of course jimmy. Me Mae's organization Beyond the Brotherhood.org, helping SEALs get out with the civilian sector and be productive and awesome. And if you want to connect with us, Nick is on the underwebs.

D-LAND-H-P or D-Land. I call it D-Landh-P.com. Also at Nick Cush-237. You now know the backstory. Hell yeah. Nick Cush. N-I-C-K-K-U-S-H-237. For us, I'm at jocco.com,

and on social media, I'm at Jock-O-Willink. Echo's at J-C-O-C-C-O-E-C-RALS. Echo is at Echo Charles. Just be careful, because there's an algorithm that'll get you. And thanks, once again, to Nick Cush, for joining us, for talking through these experiences

and lessons learned. And thank you, Nick, for looking out for our brothers on the battlefield. field. Won't ever forget it, bro. And thanks to all our servicemen and women around the world with a special salute to our EOD technicians out there who step towards that horror, step towards the potential death,

step towards the potential maiming that is packaged up in every little ounce of explosive. Thank you for taking that risk to protect your teammates. and also thanks to our police law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service all first responders thank you for what you do as well thank you for stepping toward danger to protect us and everyone else out there life's going to be a challenge but it will be that much easier to overcome those challenges it'll be that much more fun to overcome those challenges. If you connect with other people, if you build relationships,

if you build a team, if you support your team, and if you, like Nick, lift up your teammates, protect them, keep them safe. And if you do that, your challenges and struggles and hardships will be overcome. That's all we've got for tonight. Until next time, Zeko and Jocko.

Out.