Jocko Podcast - 460: IT'S NOT THE OPPS!!! Destruction Comes From Within

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

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This is Janko podcast number 460 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Destruction comes from within. This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. My last job in the Navy was running something called Trade at Training Detachment, where our job was to take platoons and task units, what they call now, troops and get those groups of men ready for combat.

And so we're putting them through the training. And you end up doing something called FTXs, field training exercises. These are big training missions. They're full mission profile we called them, meaning you do the entire mission. You do the planning. You do the preparation. And then you go and you execute the insertion, the infiltration, the infiltration, the execution, the ex-ville, the ex-field, the action.

extract, you come back, you debrief. So this is a, it's as realistic as we can make it. That's the goal. You're in a complex environment. There's pressure. There's a lot of things you've got to sort out. There's a lot of different things that have to happen. It's teamwork, right?

Without teamwork, there's no way you could get even the mission planning done. So teamwork has to happen, just like in any other environment, any other type of project, right? whether it's a construction project, whether it's working at a hospital, whether it's working on a movie set. It doesn't matter. There's a lot of teamwork that has to happen to make something come to fruition.

Now, doing this with seal platoons, most of the platoons would, they'd get up to speed. They'd get up, you know, they'd get the job done. They'd go out, they'd execute the mission, they'd accomplish the mission effectively, and they'd move on to the next block of training.

most of the time that would happen sometimes it wouldn't happen sometimes the platoon or the troop or the task unit would not be successful in the mission sometimes they would fall apart now when a platoon would fall apart it wouldn't be because of the the opposing force like the bad guys the guys wouldn't be because of them It wouldn't be because it was hot. It wouldn't because it was too hot, too cold. It wouldn't be because of the sea state. You get some giant waves. A platoon falls, but no, that doesn't happen. What's really hot, the platoon fell apart? No, that doesn't happen.

It's really cold. The platoon, no, it doesn't happen. The op-foror is just too crazy. It doesn't happen. Or even the super complex mission. It doesn't make a platoon fall apart. A good platoon. Normally what would make, or let me rephrase that,

when a platoon would fall apart, it would not be because of, these external factors that I just named off, the bad guys, the weather, the sea state, the equipment. It wouldn't be those external factors. When a platoon would fall apart, destruction came from within. It's because the OIC, the officer in charge, is antagonistic to the platoon chief. Or the chief is antagonistic to the leading petty officer. Or the leading petty officer is antagonistic to the officer in charge.

Or the E5 mafia, or four guys from the E5 mafia, hate the platoon chief. And now all of a sudden we have a little problem, right? And here's the situation that could unfold. Now these external pressures, because going through the training is very difficult. These missions that we'd put together are extremely complex. It is going to be very hot or very cold.

It is going to be super complex. The opt four is going to be aggressive and hostile. And these external forces, if the platoon is solid, that external pressure makes them better. It brings them closer. He bonds them just like combat. Like a combat unit gets bonded when they get put under that pressure. Sometimes that external pressure would catalyze the destruction. Sometimes you would see, because look, if the platoon chief and the platoon commander,

If they're not really getting along, but then it's like, hey, dude, we got to get this done. All right, let's go. I mean, that's 97% of the time. 3% of the time, what are you talking about? We're not doing it that way. So what we have is we have, when people are supposed to be going in the same direction,

they're supposed to be unified, now they're going in different directions. You know, in the book Extreme Ownership, sure. There's a chapter in there about boat crew six. And boat crew six is this losing boat crew, and they're losing all the races during hell week and they're getting crushed because of it.

No bad teams. And boat crew too, that's the name of the chapter. Boat crew two is winning every race. And so they switch the leaders. They take the winning boat crew leader, they put them with the losing boat crew. They take the losing boat crew leader, they put him with the winning boat crew.

And now the boat crew that was losing now starts to win. And, you know, part of that is like, well, what did you actually do? You know what I mean? Because yeah, the guy stepped in And one person makes that much of a difference Why?

What did they do different? Well, what that guy essentially did Was get everyone to row the boat In the same direction at the same time Because you can imagine in how weak like one guy You know, hits the other guys Oh, what are you doing, man? It's not me.

You need to get on with the cadence. It's like they're yelling at each other. Yeah. Instead of just rowing the boat With the oars at the same time in the same direction. That's how you win a race by the way. not dude you need to put out hard right I am putting out shut up I see you over you know what I'm saying

these people are bickering at each other losing yeah so what we did and trade at we didn't want these fractures to be exposed overseas so yeah of course we're working on the tactics of the guys we're working on their individual skill sets we're making sure they can shoot move and communicate all those things are happening but we also apply enough pressure in the training environment to if there's problems,

these problems are going to be exposed. They're either going to expose them, we're going to have a fracture, we're going to have destruction, or it's going to just bond us together. We're going to learn how to work through things. Our goal was always, of course, like we didn't want a platoon to fail.

We didn't want a troop to fail. Of course not. These guys are all our friends, by the way. Like, it sucks. When a platoon wasn't doing good. It's terrible. But we did want to put them, put enough pressure on them that we see, like, how is this unit, especially like this platoon commander and platoon chief, this LPO and this assistant

platoon commander, the E5 mafia versus the platoon chief or versus the LPO. They can have all these, all these things working in harmony, hopefully. But occasionally, no harmony at all. So what we did, remember when Peter Atio was on? And I think it was the first time he came on. He talked about working in an ER room and how when a family would lose a family member Shot killed stabbed whatever car accident if the family Was close

They would become even closer if there was fractures in the family those fractures would expand and explode and ruin the situation So it's a very similar thing he So at trade debt, we would be paying attention. Like, oh, we got to make sure that these people are not, you know, that they get along. Simply put, make sure these people get along. Because if you and I are overseas and we're not getting along, it's going to be a freaking problem. It's going to be a big problem. We have to learn how to get along.

We have to get tested that we get along. Have you ever seen someone that when there's pressure on, they start to lose their mind? Yes. You know, and what I mean by losing your mind? Like they lose their temper. They're mad at everybody. They yell and scream. And, you know, look, if you and I are in a pressure situation and you start yelling like,

Hey, Jaco, you need to get over here. And I go, hey, cool. Yep, got it. Echo, I'm coming. You know what I mean? I can de-escalate that thing right away. And we can continue to move forward. But if you say, hey, Taco, get over here.

And I go, who the hell you think you're talking? Now we have a problem. Yep. Right? Yes. We have a problem. So, someone in that pairing needs to be able to make sure that the pairing is going to work.

And by the way, there might be times where I'm getting frustrated and I yell at you. Echo, get your ass over here. And you go, hey, cool, got it. Got it, bro. And you come and support me. And then three days later, now you're under pressure. You're frustrated. Hey, Jaco, I need you over here right freaking now, dude.

And I go, yep, I'm on my way. Sorry, I'm late. You see what I'm saying? We can mutually support each other. We can cover and move for each other. Yeah. At trade at we would be testing that. And you know what's funny is it wasn't like a, hey, there wasn't a checkbox,

like check continuity and relationship between the platoon commander and the platoon chief. Because honestly, the reason we didn't have that checkbox is because the vast majority of time is no factor. The vast majority of time, it's like, hey, the platoon chief in the OIC or the chief in the LPO, the vast majority of time, there's going to be, there's going to be little things, but they're going to be, they're going to figure out how to work them out. occasionally we'd start to see some friction and the trade act guys were pretty good at spotting some of that friction because it's so obvious it's real obvious when it's happening yeah because you start to see like the the brief is disjointed the planning session like hey

why is the chief over in this room planning and then the officers in a different room planning Well, you guys going to, you know, get together? And so then, you know, sometimes the trade act guys would give it like the, um, hey, do your chief always talk to you like that? It's a little bit of a dick move, right? Or like, dude, you're all you see, he's not listening to you, huh, Chief? So you guys do that on purpose. It's a little bit of a test.

Yeah. And actually, wouldn't he, it actually wasn't like, oh, here's my intention. But I think the way it lands is like, hey, did your chief always like, did your chief always talk to you like that? Because you know, the OIC'd come in, hey, chief, I think we need to get this done by seven. Hey, sir, we don't need it done by seven.

We need it done by seven, 30. I got to get my guys to dinner. And you're like, oh, you hear that tone? Yes, they do. You hear that tone like out at land warfare from a platoon chief? You're like, oh, friction identified. Yeah.

Because a good platoon chief's like, hey, boss, got it. But guys are going to actually go to dinner at 730. I got a couple other things. We've got to wrap up. Oh, cool. Got it. No problem.

No factor. No factor. Or you hear, you know, the chief goes in, hey, hey, boss, I see the way we're looking at Target. We might want to consider using whatever, two sniper elements tonight. Negative. We're only using one. Oh.

If you hear that. Yeah. Yep. Again, it's not. It's, it doesn't happen very often, but it happens. Like I said. most of the time people realize that they got to work together. They realize that they're going to need to come to some kind of an agreement and overcome

differences. And there's definitely differences. Like if you're planning for a mission, the chief thinks assault from the north, the OIC thinks assault from the south. The LPO thinks assault from the east and the system between commanders is assault from the West. Everyone's got a different idea. should we put the supporting element on this

terrain feature or on this one one one there's stuff to argue should we use helicopters do we use a humvees well you know I think we know we should be offset this strike you know everyone's got their own little idea and there's a lot of different ways to skin the cat by the way as long as you're following the fundamental principles

of combat leadership every one of these different ideas can work so the good thing to learn as a leader is that as long as the cat's getting skinned, as long as the cat's getting skinned, we're going to be okay. Now, if we want to sit here and argue about how we're going to skin the cat,

and the cat runs away, you know what I mean? The cat didn't get skinned. Or by the way, like, I think we should skin the cat. One way, you think we should skin the cat the other way. And now we're both trying to skin the cat

these different ways, and they don't work together. We got a problem. So most of the time, like I said, Most of the time, one of the leaders could put his ego in check. And that's what it boils down to. Most of the time, the leader could put his ego in check.

One of them, the platoon chief, maybe, maybe the assistant platoon commander is like, all right, cool. Chief's been doing this for a long time. Maybe the chief's like, you know what? I got to give this kid some opportunity to lead. I got it. I'm going to step. You know what I mean? Like somebody goes, you know what?

All right, ego's going into check. I know we're all trying to accomplish the same mission. We all want to skin the cat. We all want to accomplish the mission. I'm not going to freak out here. But if they can't do that, and it really does just boil down to ego, if they can't put their ego in check,

next comes the eye roll. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I can't put my ego in check and you ask for something and I roll my eyes, it's like, that's the beginning. Next thing goes a snide remark, right? It goes nonverbal, I roll. Next thing is a snide remark.

After that, the next step undermining undermining which is followed closely by oddly enough sabotage and all this is kind of comes to fruition with just out outward infighting so the snide the eye roll turns into a snide remark and sometimes the snide remark is like dude I got to talk to you you know what I mean or like you give me a snide right dude let's go come here dude you know if I say, hey, Echo, we need to get this done by seven. You go, oh, is that the call? And I go, okay. Hey, dude, I'm just trying to get this stuff done. If you got a different time, let me know, dude. Like, we got to get this done at some point, right?

So, you know, at each one of these moments, there's an opportunity to deescalate. At each moment, there's an opportunity for someone to deescalate. You know, and of course, there's someone goes, well, you shouldn't accept that kind of behavior. I'm not taking that kind of. of stuff from echo talk to me like that that's when we have a problem and we go down that for that that path of iroll to snide remark to undermining to sabotage to infighting eventually what that ends up with is destruction it's destruction and yeah the platoon's certainly going to fail the mission but the the platoon isn't going to fail the mission because the mission wasn't possible to do

the platoon isn't going to fail the mission because the machine gunners didn't lay down enough cover fire. The machine gunners didn't lay down enough cover fire because the platoon chief and the OIC were fighting about where those machine gunners should be and the machine gunners were standing there waiting to be told where they can go to get a good line of sight of the target. And by the time they got there, it was too late. That's why the platoon is failing. The machine gunners are going to do the freaking machine gunner job all day. But when they don't even know what their job is because we got people infighting and undermining and sabotaging, oh, you want to put the snipers up?

on that hill okay cool watch this put the snipers up on a hill doesn't make any sense now they get overrun we got problems so occasionally platoons would have to repeat training and usually that's such a red flag now you got the commanding officer going hey what is the freaking problem here and most the time they work it out they get their shit together they come back they redo the training reload we would call it reload the training and they then they get it done and you're like cool man sorry it took a little extra time but we're all good man you guys go have an awesome deployment occasionally people get fired you know the commanding officer might

come out I'd be like hey sir because so I'm in charge of training but there's a commanding officer of the seal team that's in charge of the seal team so I'm like his tool to use to get people trained. TradeEd is a tool for the SEAL team commander to train his platoons and his troops. So when I'm sending a message back going, hey, sir, these guys just failed their second FTX. We have three more. You may want to come and assess. And he'd come out and be like, what's wrong?

And I go, well, here's an audio, because I would record audio. Here's an audio recording of one of the platoon chiefs and his OIC last night. I'm not getting over there. You get your freaking shit over. You see what I'm saying? Yep, cool. These guys don't get along, sir. And now they try and figure that out.

What's the scenario? What are we dealing with? So, and occasionally, so occasionally someone to get fired, maybe it's the platoon commander. Maybe it's the platoon chief. Don't know. Usually one of those two. Maybe it's the LPO. But generally speaking.

not generally it's going to be the platoon chief or the platoon OIC and quite frankly it's generally going to be the officer because the platoon chief is in that role for a reason you know he's got to jump through quite a few more wickets at that time but plenty

that has happened as well I won't say plenty but it does happen so destruction comes from within is my point in saying this destruction comes from within and this happens in companies teams that I work with. And listen, the market can be difficult.

And competitors in business can be ruthless. And the supply chain can be unreliable. And the cash flow can be problematic. There's all kinds of problems running a business. But all those problems, the vast majority of the time, they're just problems that the team can get solved. I mean, unless you have some product that one wants or you're in an industry that no longer exists or something like that and you

didn't adapt well if you didn't adapt well it's again we have we have an ego we have a leadership problem but adapting to a new market offsetting the competitors moves dialing in your supply chain like all those things are things that can happen those aren't problems that destroy companies those aren't problems that destroy companies when look there's not a company in existence that hasn't had the mark the market change on there that hasn't had the competitor do something that really caught them off guard that hasn't had their supply chain have issues right this happens in every industry every industry you need some new regulation because we're I was just

trying to think of what industry would not have those problems possibly like a financial but then there's some new regulatory environment that gets imposed upon them and now you got to make adapt adaptations but though so it's not these problems that destroy the company it's the egos it's the agendas it's the emotions by the way which are also tightly wrapped to your ego. It's the arguing, it's the storming off, it's the not having discussions. It's the failure to listen.

It's the failure to have a relationship, which means listen, trust, respect, influence, and care. The failure to do those things is where destruction comes from. It comes from within. Now listen, we want to build relationships with people. That means trust, listen, respect, influence, and care, right? Are there snakes? Yeah, sure.

There are snakes. There are snakes. They're out there. There's people that you build a relationship with them, and they're going to take advantage of it, and they're going to try and screw you over, and they're going to take everything that they can, right? The thing is with two comments on that.

Number one, you know how you can identify a snake? Do you know how to identify a snake? Well, they hiss and they slither and they stick to tongue right they give themselves away yeah they give themselves away and if you're paying attention you can watch these snakes move and you go oh i see what this is yeah i see what's happening here which is why it's important topic for another day when you trust list and respect influence and care you do so from a point of leverage where you're not going to give the snake the opportunity need to bite you in the neck.

You're going to keep that snake at bay a little bit, right? Yeah. You are going to let him into the yard. You're not going to let him into your kitchen. Yeah. Now you can defang him eventually or you can realize, oh, it's not a snake. That's good. Okay, cool.

But generally speaking, yes, you do have to watch out for snakes. But most of the time, here's the problem with being a snake. The snake, you ever heard Jordan Peterson, talk about sociopaths and psychopaths, like they burn every bridge in their town. Yeah. And then they gotta move to a different town. Yeah.

Because they're just burning bridges everywhere. Yeah. So that's kind of what happens with the snake. They're burning this bridge. They burn this other bridge. They burn this. And eventually like, it's real obvious that they're just over here burning. Yeah.

And they're not to be trusted. They're a snake. It's a problem. And you just stay away from the snake. So that, that does happen. But most people, if you take care of them, they're going to take care of you. If you listen to them, they're going to listen to you.

If you allow them to influence you, they're going to allow themselves to be influenced. If you treat them with respect, they're going to treat you with respect. That's what's going to happen, the vast majority of the time. And as long as you don't like say, hey, Echo, I just met you. I'm going to put a lot of trust in you. Here's my bank account. Here's all of our money. If you need to, you know, here's an unlimited credit card.

And you're a snake. Dude, you're going to clean my bank account out. I'm never going to see you again or, you know, whatever. So we're not doing that. But we are building relationships. Barring the snake, which again, keep your heads up for, the destruction comes from within. It comes from us not building relationships. It comes from us not listening to my platoon chief or my OIC or my C-O-O-O or my

frontline workers that are telling me that we're doing something wrong. That's where destruction comes from. And what's interesting about this and probably the reason that I have been thinking about this is like what do you see when you look around America? Right here. Listen, there's external threats to America, right? There's other countries' aggression. There's supply problems. There's limited resources in the world.

There can be economic strife, right? All these things can happen. But all those are just problems that, you know, we need to solve, figure them out, work together to figure them out. They're not existential threats. None of those threats, if we're unified, could ever destroy us. None of these external threats, if we're unified, could ever destroy us. We could have some hard times for sure. We could be tested for sure.

We could feel the pressure for sure. but we could survive, just like a good seal platoon. Pressure, attacks, casualties, we work through it. We unify. We work together. Same thing in America. These external threats that we have, whether it's the supply chain, whether it's the economy, whether it's aggressive states out there, okay.

We can survive those things. but what we have to be careful of is being more and more antagonistic towards each other in allowing ourselves to become more polarized it's you can certainly see some polarization in America is it the worst it's ever been no it's not it's not actually the worst it's ever been I hear that sometimes who's the worst it's ever been do we had us we had a freaking civil war 600,000 dead that's 2.5% of the population of the country at the time. It's equivalent to seven million debt, right?

If we had that level of death with our current population, seven million debt. So that's bad. That's antagonistic relationships. Go in the late 60s, early 70s. Police were being executed.

There was bombs all the time in America. Bombing's happening. police being executed this was happening in America you ever heard a co-intel pro so at the same time you had the black panthers executing police the black liberation army

executing police you had our government doing operations against civilians that And the civilians were doing things that the government didn't like, i.e. the Black Panthers. I want to say like 25 or 30 Black Panthers were killed because of these government operations that were happening.

So you had antagonistic groups going at each other. Straight up, yeah. People dying. Bad. Bad relations. Even in the 1920s. In the 1920s, there were 8 million members of the KKK. 8 million members of the KKK.

That's between 2 and 4% of the population was in the Ku Klux Klan. And by the way, if you break out like the percentage of people that were, what's the word eligible for the KKK? Sure. So like the white people, it was like 10, 12% of the whites were in the clan.

So yeah, we got some division. going on right now but it's yeah different yeah so it may feel bad and and and what makes it feel so bad right now is social media but we social media makes it feel bad makes it feel worse I should say mm-hmm makes it feel like it's air there's just hate everywhere unfortunately for me I live in the world I don't live in the in the Twitter I don't live in social media Yeah. So I talk to humans. And there's,

humans are pretty cool, actually, most of the time. You know what I mean? Yeah. We just got done with Jiu-Jitou training. Yep. Hannah Willink, Rana, got a purple belchie. Doing it.

But like, who's on the map? Everybody's on the mat. Everybody. Not to mention two or three. Other teams. Oh, yeah, yeah. Other teams. Yeah, other teams.

Otos is there. Legion is there 10th planet Like there's just people But yeah but so yeah It's definitely other teams And we could talk about the The animosity that you could have

Between teams But that's a little jiu jit-to thing As a nation As a people Who's on the map? Everybody everybody's on the mat Just a bunch of people Like there's no

It's actually even hard to Give a stereotypical person at the gym today. Right? Yeah. Because you literally had everybody. Everybody. Like there wasn't like, oh,

everyone, you know, looked like Echo and Jocco. If we were a prototypical jiu-jitsu person and you walked in there, you didn't see a bunch of Echo and Jocco-looking dudes. You saw everybody. Male, female, big, tall, rich, poor.

Whole nine yards. Everybody's in there just trying to J-J-Zer. So, because I'm in the real world and I don't sit there and reflect my day and think that everything's catastrophic, which is what causes a lot of this strife. A lot of this antagonism is caused by the fact that we're looking at a little screen all day

and the screen and the things in the screen are rewarded for making people mad. That's what's happening. the more explosive thing that you can say, the more likes and reshares you're going to get, which inspires you to say something even more explosive. And quote and dunk and all this other stuff. And then on top of that, look, there's other,

as I mentioned, we have adversaries in the world. Our adversaries are in the game of getting us. To be mad at each other. Russia. Russian bot farms. Is that a real thing? Oh, yeah, it's a real thing. It's a real thing.

There's a stat, I think it is 2019. 95% of Facebook pages for American Christians will run out of Kosovo and Macedonia. Exactly. At one point, Elon Musk, he's the guy that owns Twitter, he changed the name to X. Dude, he just launched a freaking rocket today and it landed.

It got caught between these two giant arms. Dude, it's, I was like, I had a good workout today. Meanwhile, Elon Musk, if we could launch a rocket into space, that's proving the next step of going to Mars. So, yeah, good job, Elon Musk. But at one point, Elon Musk said 20% of the people or I don't know what of the accounts on Twitter were bots that's

47 million bots we're in there 20% of the 20% of the situation was fake just out there doing it just out there just get and so you wonder why like oh the likes and tweets and retweets so where are those bots at and how do you get people mad at each other well just get them to look at their screen and get people to say hateful things and freaking make them agro and you're going to get people pissed off and they start to look at the other side in a more negative light can't believe that person people are saying that kind of thing right so you got Russia doing that you got China China with the whole TikTok thing right um it's a big it's a big compromise of personal data.

It's a culture nuke. It's a culture nuke. That's what it is. Do you know what brain rot is? This is like brain rot. I don't think I've heard that before, but it makes sense. I think. No, it's an actual thing. Because I still have one daughter that's 15.

Sure. So she's in the game. Like she can she can brief me on what's happening. All the hip stuff. Cool. But they call it brain rot. Brain rot is an actual thing. So there's like all these.

they're like memes and their videos and this whole thing called brain rot and even the kids call it brain rot because they know what it is but it still is just moving through the ethos or through the through the atmosphere of the youth so what is brain rot brain rot? Brain rot is like literally wasting time

okay and wasting time on your phone but you're what you're wasting your time on is this brain rot stuff. Okay, so like mindless stuff. Mindless stuff. But it's also, also in that like above just wasting time, it's also introducing things that are not healthy. Right?

So we're introducing things into the culture. I shouldn't have said a cultural nuke. I said, I should have said a cultural Trojan horse. Right? These little things just get interjected into the culture. Whether it's, and if it's, hey, if it's just a waste of time, which is a significant thing,

if that's all it was, it's still bad. But then when you start introducing thoughts, yeah, little ideas, little ideas. And you start thinking, wait a second, when you start presenting both extreme left-wing views and extreme right-wing views, you're introducing these thoughts, like, boo. And you introduce those thoughts to,

young undeveloped minds. And now instead of them spending time learning from their parents, learning from reliable sources and historical sources, instead of learning from literally, they're learning from TikTok. They're learning from implants. They're learning from people that are propagandizing things that are just going to infect their brain.

So you have that going on. Have you ever heard the term, it's an op? It's an op. Yeah, yeah, fully. In what way? Like a sci op, right? It's like a thing. It's like they're trying to get you.

They're trying to like, yeah, this undercover agenda that's used against you to capitalize on something that you do, whatever. So perfect. That is a great term. and there's they're real number one yeah like even if you take the advertisement that you saw on tv or that you got in your scrolling like that's a little op that's going on yeah right it's a little op to trying to get you to think about the thing yeah right cool oh yeah see that oh yeah i'm going to think about it's a little op going on but the the op that's maybe done by the extreme left

maybe done by the extreme right that little op that's going on by the way that's the way that's way, who's running the extreme left, who's running the extreme right? Is it actually American humans? Or is it outside sources? Gee, I wonder. So here's my recommendation. It's all an op. Like, it's all an up.

They're trying, everyone is trying to get you to think of this or to think that. with the media that you're consuming is trying to move you to believe something or to think a certain way. Yeah. And keep in mind, that's only on one level. You're falling, or not you, but we. We can, myself included, fall for these ops on other levels on many different levels because you have groups of players or whatever. Right. So even like, let's say I'm going to, I'm a.

say outlet or entity that's going to capitalize or benefit from pushing this or pushing that through attention, through money, through, you know, like, so if I'm a news place, right, independent or otherwise, and I push this inflammatory thing, whether it's true or not, I get the views, I get the numbers, I get all that. I don't care how it affects you at all. In fact, quite frankly, I want it, I don't care if it's good or bad for you. All I just want you to do is push it, push it some more. Get mad, get at the very least inspired in a negative or positive way, don't care.

To keep pushing it, to spread it, spread it, spread it. So I get the numbers, boom, there's my op. That's just one level. That's one level. You got to think for yourself, no one is telling you the truth. No one is telling you the truth. They're telling you what they want you to hear. That's what's happening

I was talking to Mick G Hell yeah He was talking about some This theory that's out there right now Which is like the death of the internet Have you heard of this? The internet is dead The reason the internet is dead is because

AI is just gonna be able to manufacture Just anything And next thing you know echo Charles is gonna be on You know on on YouTube Saying you know I support Nancy Reagan for president this year You know like just totally False fight and be totally believable and like no one will be able to tell anything.

And so just every piece of information that you got, you just never know if anything is true unless you're literally talking to me face to face right now. So it's kind of an interesting concept. And then he showed me a commercial for some, I don't know, for something. And it was AI generated. It was, you know, it said, hey, this is an AI example of an AI generated commercial. And it's all fake. and it looks 100% real. It looks 100% real.

And McGee is like, this is like, this is like a $3 million thing to shoot. And somebody probably did this on their computer for, I mean, of course, they invested time and effort and learned how to do it. But still, it's getting the point where it's like, I could just keep putting in the prompt and cleaning up the thing and it gets better and better.

So if they can do, if they can make something look perfect, Like actual humans. I mean, it was only, I don't know, three months ago, six months ago, where someone, when they started posting like pictures of people that were not real, but they looked like a photograph.

And now those same people that were just a photograph before are now moving and talking. Yep. Yeah, it's true. So everybody's running an op on you. Yeah. The good news about that is not to go... Which part?

about AI yeah a part no no the part is what's the good news about a talk to me there's two good news but but yes okay so the AI part or whatever with with the development of that the there's comes the development of the other side like the security part of it so actually I know okay it's Luke Newman just can reconnected a few days ago he he's on like the board or whatever he's on this thing that basically provides some digital like watermark on things basically to be able to differentiate whether this is AI or authentic. It's like one of those. So I don't know what stage of development it's in or I don't know that, but I'm just saying with this development

comes this other development as well. So you get some pushback. You get some resistance against just free, freaking free range taking advantage of this thing. Because it's true. I mean, even now, like I could, I'd be like, okay, I need Jocko to say something, right? Something cool or whatever. I don't know Jocko, but I know a guy who maybe could kind of look like Jocko, maybe not his face, but whatever. I'll have him say it. I'll clone his voice, do a face swap. The AI will deep fake his face and freaking light it kind of cool and put some grain on

there and it'll look and sound exactly like Jocko. So you can do that literally right now with not that much skill. But if we know that the landscape is like a bunch of that going on and we already know that, I understand. Yes. Okay. So the whole internet could be dead. Or there will be many, many ways to differentiate, okay, or to check at the very least,

check. this real or is this not real? Is this suspect or not suspect? We see it already. You know, like you scroll through and then has that little stripe on the bottom. This may or may not be factual. I don't know, whatever it says. Oh, community notes on Twitter. Yeah, Twitter and all this other stuff. So what I'm saying is that's the good news. You know, it's not going to be this freaking bum rush of like false information that you literally have no recourse for being able to tell like if it's true or not. Did you see the, the optimist robots yet? Optimist. Oh, yeah. The Tesla robot. There was a walking.

talking to people having full conversations moving their hands like just chilling yeah cool but and I saw a video of it it's like oh yeah it's gonna be able to babysit your kid I was freaking that kind of a robot kind of defeats the purpose of babysitting my kid so babysitting my kid I guess oh because your robot could be going to the grocery store while you are with your kid yeah that's one of the many I think I think for example yeah like we're I don't know the neighbor comes over and sure I guess it I guess it's from an observing report scenario sure but the neighbor comes over and freaking

destroys the robot and freaking kidnaps like i don't know it's like it seems like a person there is going to be way better just because it's a person how do you feel about autonomous driving yeah that's a that's a weird one yeah because my brother laf babbin's like dude he's like no way yeah and i always think like bro the he's not like humans are good drivers. Yeah, they actually kind of suck. Yeah. I mean, compared to like a machine, I guess, because it might be kind of a psychological kind of trick, but it feels like, sure, maybe the computer will be better drivers overall and they can communicate with other cars who aren't even near yet, like all this whole system

and it can kind of account for all this stuff. But when there's a glitch and someone loses their life or gets injured or something like this, it's kind of like, what do we do? Like, who do we turn to for the blame? Like, it's hard, you know? When you get a accident with someone rear ends you brother guy's right there you know it's like this accountability well no I think it's inherently we want to have control yeah we don't trust we trust ourselves not necessarily for a good reason more than we trust a machine it's always tripped me out like you know in some they'll say something is handmade mm-hmm versus like machine made but in a way machine is perfect yeah now it's not

always true with certain materials and certain things are hard but like a car like there's certain cars that are handmade rolls Royce is handmade and I get it but it also takes them a long time and they've cost five hundred thousand dollars yeah and is it that much better than a freaking machine that rolls off the line yeah have you ever been in a rolls Royce before yeah you have a rolls Roy rolls Royce yeah where wait wait is Rolls and Bentley the same thing they're related somehow but Rolls Royce is like next level I was in an old school. Oh, you used to be a valet, by the way, Aloha Tower, Honolulu, about 1990.

Seven, eight, or is. But, you know, yeah, we drive a lot of cars. And yes, Rolls-Royce was one of the, but it was an old school one. The one that I remember specifically, it was kind of one of the older ones. It was super nice. Was it an old one at the time? Yeah, yeah. Like 1960 or I don't know, whatever it was.

Well, I guess my point is sometimes we want to, we don't trust the machines. Yeah. Right. even though a machine might be more trustworthy. More trustworthy in a lot of ways. Here's why the choice. And it kind of goes back to what I said about like someone to blame or and less about blame,

but just more of the moment to moment troubleshooting scenario, which actually at the end of the day might be part of the control scenario. Because like you have a factory, right? Not there's handmade than there's machine made, whatever, right? You have the factory. Usually it's kind of like the factory just rolls them out. That's what it feels like, you know? They just rolls them out.

But what if there's a defect or what? whatever. And I know the reality is like, you know, you ever watch that show how it's made? It's a really therapeutic freaking show. But anyway, it's a real like mellow show about how random stuff is made. So sometimes it'll be in a factory, right? I don't know, bottles or I don't know, whatever. It's like catchers mitts. I don't know, whatever. So sometimes it's a factory and then they'll always show there's always a quality check person at like this, this, this stage of the game. In all the different stages. There's always a person there kind of checking. But still, it's like he's mass checking it. It's like, yeah, yeah.

You know, like hundreds of them are coming through and he's just picking out the ones that don't pass or whatever. But that aside, when a machine factory kind of, you don't, it doesn't seem like you account for the defects, you know, even though they're rare, we'll say, but there's like there's a defect there. Meanwhile, the handmade person, every single one is meticulously troubleshot throughout the whole, oh, little defect fixed. Fixed there. There's a person there doing it at every every single step of the production process. I'm saying? So yeah, it might actually have we go go to that control. Yeah. Just just a note Origin USA we have factories. We make clothing the weird thing is you can't there's some things you can automate Yeah. But a lot of it you you can't automate it because every because material is just its own it has its own little mind. It's given input and it only it takes the It takes the skill and intelligence of a human being to move that piece of material at the right moment, the right speed, because it's all, there's little tiny, imperceptible variables that are there in a piece of cloth.

Yeah. That there's only, only a human can do that, some of those jobs. So technically, like the origin, is handmade. It's a handmade. Everything at origin is handmade. Straight up. Yeah. Now, there are certain, like, belt loops because of the size of them and the narrowness, like, you can automate the making of the belt loop itself.

Right. Yeah. Even though there's people that have to do certain part of the belt loop automation. So there's things that you can automate, but ultimately a human has to, you know, if you're pulling the waistband through, there's too much variability in the material that you cannot. just have a machine do it you can do it now you can have a piece of machine can work on a piece of metal like you can you can put a piece of steel into a machine and you can kick out a knife right because there's not because you could you can make that that material so uniform that there would be no defects yeah and that makes

sense so what it's the human I guess there's some some psychological satisfaction of the reliability of human judgment, I guess, as accurate or as inaccurate as it ends up being, it's just something there. Because going back to my brother Laif Babin, look, we might think, hey, dude, I don't trust a computer. Right.

To be driving like, okay, here's a question. You're going to take your kids and put them out on a sidewalk, and you're going to have a car, or you're going to put them on the road, and a car is going to drive between them. Yeah, would you rather have a human do that or a machine? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I'm, I'm right in the middle of that because everything that Leif Batman is thinking about and concerned about, so am I. 100%. But then the whole, like the numbers, you know, like on paper, I kind of can't ignore that either, you know. So check us out. Here's the task. Someone's going to drive. Your children have to be 10 feet apart. And someone has to drive between them at,

60 miles an hour. Do you want the Tesla to do that? Or do you want Here's a, I just make, do you want a random human? Because you know there's some people that would be so scared of killing your kids that they would freak out.

Like it would be horrible. I would rather have the Tesla do it. In that specific situation, I would rather the computer do it. Yes. If the computer is made. Then you probably go, all right, I'll take.

Maybe, even. Maybe. Okay. Because think about it. Like, I guess we see machine error all the time too. But let's face it, human error. Bro, that's like a thing. That's like a leading role in a movie right there.

Human error. Come on. You hear about that all the time. So I don't know, man. I guess it's like this weird dance that we're going to be doing anyway. You know, like a lot of stuff is straight up automated that can kind of put us tricking out. Really? Well, this is what's scary is that there's automated social media.

activity happening, which is sole purpose is to get into your mind and run an op on you. So I guess, and by the way, there's also humans that are running ops to try and get inside your head and make you think a certain way. So when you receive data, run the data through a filter, make it a data point, not the truth. There's a big difference between the data and the truth. Yeah. And here's another thing that's really What one of the things that are taking advantage of for for

Human Instinct is that it is easier to build to destroy than it is to build It is easier to destroy things than it is to build things. Yeah. So if we're doing construction What is easier to build a building or to destroy it? Right? If you're going to build, think of how hard it is to build something. Think of how hard it is to build something. Think of how hard it is to build a house or a commercial structure or a freaking airport like think of how hard it is when you start pouring concrete and having candle levers like there's so much stuff that has to be done correctly in order to build a structure it has to be done sequentially it has to be within certain parameters now what skill does it take to destroy something a building like

if you give a nine-year-old a wrecking ball he's got it bro. You know what I'm saying? Like he could make it happen. You got it. That's for sure. Philosophically speaking, like speaking of philosophies, it's easier to find flaws in existing philosophies than it is to create nuance. Like if you're going to create a whole new, it's much easier just to look at some other philosophy and poke holes in it.

You know what's funny is that in the same vein, criticism is a lot easier than creation. A lot easier. have you seen that the really good example of this is YouTube is where there's people that create things on YouTube and there's people that criticize what was made yeah which is some of those are funny right got it but it is an easier move yeah right it's easier just to uh like someone makes a movie and then someone critiques the movie obviously the critique part is easier than the making of the movie yeah someone writes a book someone critiques the book the

guy that's critiquing the book it's like yeah you don't got to come over nothing yeah about the song like someone creates a song and someone else goes your song sucks you see what I'm saying so destruction is easier than creation it's easier to destroy than to build um rhetorical structure by the way it's much easier to to rip someone's ideas apart than it is for someone to present a holistic idea. Much easier to sit there in the freaking cheap seats and just be like, oh yeah. And it's the same thing with ego. For our ego, it is so much easier for our ego to just go and rip someone down than it is to come up with your own idea and present it out there to the world.

Right. So building things and putting them out there is hard to do because your ego is at risk Because if echo makes a video and people like this video sucks Your ego gets hurt whereas it's much easier for you to make a video about someone else that made a video and make fun of their video So what this means is that people Generally speaking Will given the opportunity it's a lot easier To try and destroy things and the reason I say this is because it's

that what that does is it makes it easier on social media the social media algorithms prey on this it's much easier for me to dunk on someone and then that gets shared we end up we end up in a world of destruction rather than in a world of creation and that's kind of where we're at sure is there an inspirational side where people like oh this is a really good you know video a really good uh clip that someone put out there i let it's positive it's good those things things get circulated sure not as often as a freaking destruction gets circulated yeah the destruction gets circulated and so if you find yourself if you find yourself in destroyer mode which is a video that we made but it's a

different context you find yourself trying to destroy rather than build just be careful just be careful we did we also did a podcast on flipping over the chessboard remember that of course on the underground podcast I was like, hey, it's when people get so frustrated with the game that they just flip over and they're not going to play the game anymore. That's easier than it is to get in the game and study the game and move forward. And we do that. You can find people that do that in life. It's easier to wake up in the morning, dude, I'm not doing this stupid freaking game.

I'm not getting on this hamster wheel. I get it. I want to be on the hamster wheel. So it's easier to not get on the hamster wheel. It's easier just to be like these jobs are stupid. This is stupid. This is bad. It's easier to try and rip it down than it is to go, you know what? I'm going to do this.

I'm going to build. It's going to take me years on the hamster wheel to where I can actually get something productive and I can make a step up. And now I'm on the top of the little hamster crate, which is where I want to be. But that's hard to do. It takes effort. It takes work. It takes planning.

It takes discipline. But it doesn't take any discipline. I'm not doing. I'm not playing that game. Flip the chessboard over. So if you find yourself either on a large scale in life being in a destructive mindset or if you find yourself on a day-to-day basis and what you're doing is trying to rip people down, you're trying to destroy, just be careful. Just pay attention to that. And by the way, when you see someone that has been possessed by an op, they bought into it, dude. Let's face it, you go down the rabbit hole. There's a chance you may not be coming out. have friends that I talk to that they're watching a different movie than I am.

You know what I mean? They are watching a different movie than I am watching. They're, when you see someone, they're possessed by an op, by the op, by that op, by this op or the other op, they're possessed by an op. They have been manipulated into believing that what they've seen and what they've read and what they've watched and what they've scrolled through is the truth. It's not the truth. It's bullshit.

So if you are interacting with someone like that, whether there's someone that you know or there's someone that you don't know, if you take the direct approach with them, I'm just giving you a heads up, it doesn't work very well. The direct approach is not the best approach. Try the indirect approach.

Go and listen to a podcast 285, 286, 287, B. H. Ledell-H. Delhart, understand the indirect approach. Utilize the indirect approach when you're dealing with other people, especially people that have been, Possessed by the op Those are another slang word speaking of brain rot

There's ops, right? You get this? You with this? You tracking? Yeah, this person's ops. Yeah, this is different. Ops means that the opponent the opposing force, right? They're bad guys. Yeah This is a sci op. It's being ran on you and me When you open your phone Psychological operation has begun. That's what's happening. Recognize it

if you are and then put a filter on everything that you're reading everything that you're seeing and remember that that is not the truth it's an op it's a freaking op i had an officer one time yeah he's actually the officer i talk about in the book leadership strategy and tactics he is the person that guided me in the direction of becoming an officer myself he was a prior enlisted officer he was the most humble guy he was awesome dc yes we call him in the book book we call him DC. Okay. One thing that he told me, he was an officer.

He's a prime list of guy, but he's an officer. And he said, he said, never trust an officer. Don't even trust me. He kind of, you know, it's a, it's a fun statement. If you're freaking out right now, if you're in the military and you're like, hey, Jocko's telling everyone not, that's not what we're saying. It was a, it was a, what would be the best way to describe what that was? it was a data point.

It was a data point. You know, he said one of those times like, hey, never trust an officer, not even me. You know, just like, oh, okay. Why did he say that? Well, he said that because keep in mind that you're going to have some awesome officers. Keep in mind that you're going to have some bad officers. Keep in mind that that officer, you know, he has to have a career and they have to move forward in their career.

Just keep that in mind, right? And look, that guy's one of the. That guy is the best officer that I will definitely one of the best officers that I ever work with. And so I'm not, your officers out there, calm down. Actually, you should take this into consideration. You should tell your guys this. Hey, this is on, on you as leaders. But that idea of don't ever trust an officer, don't even trust me.

I'm going to tell you right now, when you open your phone, when you start scrolling, when you start reading the news, Don't ever trust it Don't even trust me Don't even trust Jocko podcast Don't trust it Question it You question everything That's what you should do

Now If you have that mindset Of like okay everything's an op When I hear something it's an op They're trying to make me think something Keep that in mind If you run into someone That has been possessed by the op

don't try and use the direct approach with them it's not going to work it doesn't work what you need to do is use the indirect approach go listen to 285 286 287 bhe the delhart what does that mean the indirect approach try and understand their point of view like oh you say this thing cool i wonder i wonder why they think that try and think how you could actually believe that try and think how are they right how are they right and how are you wrong. Try and go through that mental exercise and then just keep an open mind to discuss it. You're not always going to be right. They're not always going to be right. We don't always have all the facts. You don't have to have a freaking opinion on everything. You don't have to have a

right or wrong answer. You don't have to know the conclusion of the movie while you're watching the movie. I don't. I have an open mind. I'm collecting data points. I'm not making decisions based on one eighth of the data points that I received from one human who's trying to manipulate my brain to make me think something. I'm not making any decisions off that. I'm not making any statements about that. If you have an open mind, then you can start to understand the environment that you're operating in.

The challenge of the open mind is that the open mind is counterintuitive because having an open mind means you're exposing yourself to external ideas, which you don't like because your ego doesn't like that kind of thing. Your ego thinks you know everything already. That's what it thinks. So we have to put our egos in check. By the way, you can't force someone else to put their ego. It's like if you and I ever come, just set your ego aside for a minute, echo and listen to my viewpoint. That doesn't work. I told someone the other day, it's against the law of physics. It's against the laws of physics to be able to put someone else's ego in check. That's like you can't do it.

Right? Yeah. You can't do it. It's against the laws of physics. I can't tell you to put your ego in check. It doesn't work. Yeah. You might shut your mouth for a minute, but your ego is not in check by any stretch of the imagination.

So it's on us to put our ego in check and listen and trust and treat people with respect and allow them to influence us. and care about what they're doing. So that's it. Destruction comes from within. That means that you are the person that can stop the destruction. In order to do that, you got to own it. You got to recognize that you're the problem.

You've got to keep an open mind. And if you do that, you'll make your life better. And you'll make the lives of the people around you better too. So there we go. Is there do you and I want I'm tempted to ask and say on an emotional level, but I don't know if I will or not just say on is there a certain level of your thought of the difference between an enlisted guy who becomes an officer and then a not in I don't know what's the other pipeline just officer just officer. Yeah, yeah. Is there a difference? What they ultimately both become an officer. We'll see in this hypothetical. Is there a difference? Well, I mean, obviously they got there through a different path. Right. But as officers,

same, officers officers. Yep. Well, here's the thing. I've known amazing officers that went to the Naval Academy. I've known terrible officers that went to the Naval Academy. I've known amazing officers that did ROTC.

I've known terrible officers that did ROTC. I know, I've known incredible officers that did OCS. I've known terrible officers that did OCS. I've known incredible officers that were Mustangs, which is prior enlisted. Sure. Known amazing officers that were Mustangs.

I've known terrible officers that were Mustangs. So the pipeline does not matter as much as the character of the human does. So when I meet someone, you know, look, the Mustang officer, the prior enlisted officer, definitely has some level of advantage because he has, experience in that trade. But at the same time, the officer's been in charge for a, you know,

if you got an officer that's been an officer for 10 years and an enlisted guy that's been in for 10 years and then became an officer four years ago. So he's got 14 years experience versus 10 years experience. Or let's even take a less extreme or a more extreme case. An officer that's been an officer for six years versus an enlisted guy that was enlisted for five years and then became an officer two years ago. So the enlisted guy, the prior enlisted guy,

has a little advantage because he worked in the job. The officer's been in charge. He's been in leadership positions all the time, so he should have hopefully some more leadership experience. Again, those are just the facts. That's the way it is. Some people out of the gate, they do a good job as leaders. Yeah.

Some people out of the gate, they do a terrible job as leaders. So my point is, I unfortunately, the protocol used to become an officer officer matters a lot less than the raw material that goes into the pipeline. Okay. Cool. I was surprised by that. When I came in, I thought, like, when I came in the Navy, I thought the dudes that had gone

to the Naval Academy and were like, in my mind, I thought these guys were going through leadership training for four years, like focused leadership training for four years. And when I started having Naval Academy officers, some awesome, and they'd be like, well, what happened with this freaking knucklehead over here? Yeah. Who's arrogant or has a huge ego or who treats the team guys like shit? So I was like, oh, okay. You don't, and what I found out is that you don't learn a lot of leadership at the Naval Academy or at West Point.

There's some of it. Maybe they're getting better now, but, you know, back in the day, it was. Back in the day, it was like, you know, you're going to college. You're learning electrical engineering and you're doing drills, but you're not learning to lead. Yeah. Leadership is a skill that you need to be taught. And some people will have an aptitude for it. Some people don't need any education at all, to be honest with you.

Some people are just freaking good leaders. Yeah. They can get better and they will get better as they learn the skills, but they got some natural skills. It's just like a guy that's seven foot two. He's going to be naturally good on the basketball court when it comes to scoring, bro, period. End of story. Yeah, it's come easier.

Now he's going to have to learn some skills, learn how to box out, right? You know what I mean? Sure. Like, he's got to learn some skills. He's got to learn how to rip that rebound down. Yeah, yeah, dribble, the whole deal. Yeah.

But he's seven, too. Yeah. Now you take a guy that's 5'8, he's going to be less impactful. Yeah. He's going to have to learn a lot more and get a lot better. Yeah.

So most leaders are like between 510 and 6-2. Yeah. And that's what we look for. Which means they all, 6-2 or 5-8, no matter where you are in that spectrum, you got a lot to learn if you want to be an asset on the basketball court. Like if you're 6-2, you're a little bit of, you know, that's not really going to help you. You're going to have to be good. You have to learn the skill. That's the same thing with most leaders.

So let's say, so you know how you get a job, we'll say, let's say, not you, but you know, you get a job and you were, let's say you're part of a frat in high school, or not high school, sorry, college. And another guy in this other department is part of that same frat, maybe 10 years before you or something like this. But you guys are still kind of broying out because you guys were part of that frat back in the day. That's what I'm asking. So like, you're, because you're an officer. Jocko became an officer Former enlisted guy Is that the correct expression?

Yeah So if when you regard Two other guys one went to the academy One former enlisted Do you kind of bro out That same frat boy bro out With the enlisted guy officer? More so

I would say not on an official level I'm just saying on a cultural On an unofficial level Yeah Me Mustang Yeah I'm going to bro out more with the Mustang than I would have the academy guy but it would be very

minor compared to the academy guy broying out with another academy guy okay like they have way more to bro out about they did four years in this institution they learned you know that other team guy like he might have been at a different team you know maybe he deployed different places we're still like it's good but we don't have like like like like we didn't we didn't go through some experience together. Real specific. Yeah, it's not real specific.

Like we both went to OCS as nothing. It's like no factor. I understand. Yeah, no, no, because the reason, the reason I said that is because when you're talking about DC when he was like, hey, don't trust anyone, any officer, even, even me. And then you kind of were like putting caveats on it like, hey, officers don't get kind of like they were officers and you're not, Brad, you were an officer. You can say whatever you want about officers.

That's a funny thing. It was DC saying that he was an officer. That's why it was so. Kind of neat that he was saying But he's a Mustang is what I'm saying That's why I asked I was like wait you guys are talking like you guys Almost like you're not part of a certain club that you might be insulting You guys are all officers right right?

Maybe not maybe there's a little defa I don't know Yeah there might be a little bit of that but I never felt too strong about it I was never like dude that guy doesn't get it he wasn't a prior yeah I never I never thought like that but that again because it had so much more to do with The human being yeah than it did where they came from. Yeah. So I guess the question was, does that exist though?

You know? Does that what exist? That differentiator, you know, in the, within the culture, because like I said, the whole frat boy thing, like the example or whatever that is,

like that's a literal thing in existence. Like if you guys went to the same frat, like you're different. You guys are just a little bit separate. Look, it's not like you're going to get a raise or, you know,

something like you're from Hawaii. Yeah, yeah, exactly. When you meet somebody from Hawaii, like I've watched you. Start broying out with people that are from Hawaii. Exactly right.

Same thing with you. But what I'm saying is that's a shared culture that you had on an island. You know what I'm saying? This Mustang over here, this officer, like he might have done totally different. We just don't have a common. There's a little bit. Yeah, fully. Like if you met someone, like when you meet someone that has a twin,

no, that's the same as. It's same as Hawaii. It's there for sure. If you met someone who maybe. has a shaved head or something. Yeah, maybe a little bit more than a shaved head, like, someone that used to work as a bouncer. As a bouncer, yeah, yeah, okay, I get it.

Yeah, I was a bouncer too. Oh, yeah, you know, okay. Perfect. But, you know, he was a bouncer in La Jolla and you were a bouncer downtown. So I was reducing it down to like a straight up binary. Like, either it exists or it doesn't exist. And it doesn't matter the level it exists. I'm saying, does it exist in the culture in some?

I don't care if it's like 1%. You know what I'm saying? Like if you're wearing a freaking, black or jeans if you're wearing jeans and I see you at a freaking I don't know wherever at the store and I'm wearing jeans like we don't bond over jeans it doesn't exist that level of you know so it exists a little let me tell you something when you would when I would say oh we've got this we're getting this other officers coming over to work with us it would it wouldn't be he's an academy guy he's a Mustang like that wouldn't that wouldn't be in the descriptor

the initial descriptor. It might be three sentences, maybe three paragraphs down like, oh, where do you come from? Oh, he's coming from team two. Oh, okay, cool. Right on. Mustang.

Yeah, and it's like, where was he at before that? Oh, he's actually a Mustang. Oh, okay, cool. Oh, no, he went to the Academy. Oh, he's an Academy guy. So it's like a pretty low differentiator. And that's in the SEAL teams, dude.

Like the SEAL teams, I'm sure in other parts of the Navy, maybe there's a whole, maybe there's more of it. Like, have you ever heard the term of ring knocker before. It's like someone's wearing their naval academy ring and they like knock rings together, I guess. So like a little,

like a little derogatory remark. Yep. I get you. But again, it's the sense, look, the sentiment of that statement. Yeah.

Isn't, isn't like to be taken literally. Yeah, fully. And that's really what I was out. The sentiment of the statement is like, hey, be heads up.

Yeah, fully. And I actually wasn't addressing the sentiment of the statement. I was addressing your, your person, like you're kind of positioning on the whole thing because you're like, hey, officers don't get it insult or whatever you said, right? Oh yeah.

But I'm like, bro, you're an officer. What the hell you're talking about? Like they are going to, you know, you can say it, you know. But if there's that differentiator, even this much, then it makes sense is what I'm saying. I'm not saying good or bad. To me it makes sense. Yeah. And the way I looked, once I became an officer, the way I kind of like looked at that,

the way I carried that with me was I need to earn the trust of these guys. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that makes sense. I can't be there. If you do things that are untrustworthy, if you say something, you say you're going to do something, you don't do it, or you know, say not to do something that you're doing. You know, if you're doing those kind of things,

they're going to, they're going to seize on it. You got to, you got to work to earn their trust. So I would add that to the statement. Never trust an officer. Don't even trust me. And by the way, if I'm talking to you and you're an officer, that means you got to earn that trust of you, the boys. Yeah.

Because they should be suspect of you, because you hold power over them. You know, just like we talked about driving a vehicle between two people, it's like, well, that officer has a lot of influence over what you're going to be doing. So if you don't earn the trust of your troops, it's going to be a problem. They're looking at you going, hey, you're going to drive a vehicle between my two kids. Yeah. That's 60 miles an hour. You're going to be creating operations, approving operations.

operations leading operations that we can get killed on. So if you think I'm just going to give you my trust, think again. So if you're an officer, remember that that trust is not given because you wear a rank. It needs to be earned. Thought complete. Yeah, I dig it. So remember, rewind a little bit. Remember when you're talking about the kind of the escalation of interior deterioration.

Like first, it's something. Yeah. an eye roll, then a snide remark. I roll was first. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's probably just, before an eye roll, it's probably just like a stare. Yeah.

And then it turns into an eye roll. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure there's subtle, we could do the little intermediary stages. But the snide remark, right? Or actually I might even add, I mean, in the spirit of intermediary, freaking steps, there's the before the eye roll, there's the maybe the, what do you call the tone tonality. Like instead of, okay, I'll do that. It's like, okay.

You know, like the tone is different. Yeah. But anyway. snide remark how do we deal with a snide remark right because interior the fracture is already in existence right where i don't know you're hypothetical i don't know you're asking somebody to do something you know maybe your tone was off i don't know whatever yep so when i say hey echo can you get to the gym right now we got to do a special recording and you give me a snide remark back um a little time would have helped yeah dude i'm sorry i just i've figured out or i found out i got to leave tomorrow

I know we're going to record tomorrow afternoon, but I got to go on a trip. I can't get out of it. So I apologize, man. It's on me, but we got to get this thing done. So just explain, you know? Because the other end of the spectrum is, Hey, Echo, can you come to the gym right now?

We've got to record something. And you give me a snide remark. Yeah, little time would have helped. Oh, okay. Well, you know what? If you can't do it, I'll find somebody that will. You see what I'm saying? We can just escalate and we're just getting stupid.

Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? If it's too much trouble for you to come down. You know what I mean? Is that where we're at? You know, see what I'm saying? It's like just escalation. It's stupid.

Okay, so let me ask you this too. But recognizing and taking ownership of the fact that I did, oh, I'm not, I didn't even explain to you. I just, I just said, echo come down to the gym. I didn't say, hey, hey, bro, I forgot to tell you that I actually got, I have a trip. I got to go on tomorrow. We got a client that's got some issues on one of their sites and I'm going to go up there and help them.

Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I got to record it today. Cool. Yeah. See what I'm saying? Yeah, fully. So, okay, here's another hypothetical one. It's for a reason.

So the, let's say, okay, we're co-workers and there's an employee situation. Let's say we're all workers. I don't know, five, 10, 20 of us. I don't care. You're the boss. I'm your second, I don't know, we'll say. You ask me to do something. And I do not only a snide remark, but I already have a history of mouthing back to you,

like passive aggressive tone, whatever, like publicly in front of people, right? See, now we're bypassing the fact that I didn't solve this problem. when it was a little seed in the ground that I could have taken and planted in better soil. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I do. But okay, so I missed it. The reason that I do ask that

and would totally make sense and actually I don't even know why I'm surprised you said that. I guess I'm technically not, but yes, of course you would say that. But a lot of us, I'm not saying me, not saying me, but some of us find ourselves. Yeah, and we failed to deal with it.

Yeah, and we found, hey, look, we just got turned on to Jocco and the whole extreme ownership scenario. Okay, cool, cool, cool. And we find ourselves in this scenario. What are we doing? What do we do? So Snide remark, in public.

Yeah, in front of people. Yeah. Which actually makes a little bit of a difference in the experience. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So what I'm probably going to do is like, yeah, right. Hey, I probably give it just like that. Like, Roger that, Echo.

Hey, you know what? Let's get this thing knocked out. And yeah, I can see it's, I can see the way this landed isn't the way I wanted to land. We'll talk after and I'll try and understand your viewpoint to make sure I'm supporting what you're trying to get done. Because what I don't want to say is I'll talk to you later because that's right you know. I'm about to punish you. Yeah, I'm about to punish you. Everybody be sure to know that. Yeah, everyone be sure that you know that I'm, you know, I might, I might just kind of let it

slide a little bit like yeah, Roger that echo. You know what I mean? Like, okay, cool. And then I'm go, hey man, I can see that what I said really bothered you because the way you reacted to it. I've, I felt it. And I want to, I want to get down to figure out what the problem is because I don't You know, you're, you're my number two guy. If I have beef with you, bro, I mean, my whole world sucks. So what am I doing wrong? Talk to me about how I can better support you and give you what you need so we can get this mission done.

That's a good one. Very good, actually. Check. Cool. All right, everybody. Let's try and not destroy ourselves from the inside. By the way, everything I said applies to us on a personal level as well. Like, we destroy ourselves from the inside.

Like, very seldom is it some external force? Yep. that wrecks our lives. Brad, you're over here talking about, yeah, for this also applies on a personal over, Brad, to me. And look, I'm going to speak for myself. I get it. But for me, all this does is apply on a personal level.

I mean, let's face it. Fucking dealing with you all the time, you know. Check. All right. Well, speaking of us on a personal level, something that you can do to improve your life. Mm-hmm. You work. your relationships, your health is get after it, work out.

Joccofuel.com, if you're, go check that out if you need food. We're doing the Walmart 434 tour. Next stop is Bentonville, Arkansas. It's the day down there. It's the end of October. I think it's the last weekend of October. I forget, I think 26, something like that. Anyways, we'll be there down in Bentonville.

Come and check it out. We're going to do a little PT. The one we did here in San Diego was kind of epic. Yeah, lots of getting after it, as they say. Anyways, jacofuel.com. We have the milk that you need. That's protein.

We have hydrate. We have greens. We have energy drinks, which I've had two today, which is a little, get some. Hell of you. Joint warfare.

Super krill. I had a woman at the Walmart said, I couldn't run until I started taking supercril. And now I'm doing burpees and running. So check it out joint warfare super krill if you need immunity Check that out and then time war Time where the long of the long term strategic health

Check out time more Jockfuel.com you can also get this stuff at Wawa at vitamin shop GnC military commissaries a Fee's hanaferr dash stores in Maryland wake fern shop right H.EB down in Tejas mire in the Midwest Wegman's out east Harris tib Peter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, small gyms everywhere. We got you.

We're, Jitsu gyms too, by the way. If you want to carry this at your jiu-jitsu gym, we're going to Pedro Sauer. Oh, yeah, hell, yeah. We're going in Atos. Hell yeah. We're going to the troops, right? Obviously, we're in victory.

We're in Legion. We're in there. We in there. If you want us in your gym, email JFsales at joccofuel.com and get some. Also, if you're doing Jiu-Jitsu, you need Jit-Too gear. Go to originusa.com. You might be hunting. If you're hunting, you need hunting gear, go to origin, USA.com.

If you're going out for dinner with your wife, you're going to need a pair of jeans. It's true. Go to origin USA.com. If you're a little chilly at night, you need a hoodie. Go to origin, USA.com. If you need something on your feet, like a pair of boots. Sure. If you're going to need some of those, go to originusa.com and get stuff that is handmade.

Handmade. Right here in the United States of America. And it's made with materials from the United States of America. That's what we're doing. OriginUSA.com. We've got some folks deploying right now from Origin USA going into North Carolina. Well, we're in North Carolina, but moving into the areas in North Carolina that had been affected. It's starting to get cold there.

Luckily we had we made clothes. So we're given a bunch of We're working with Tulsi. Oh, yeah. She's out there. Tim Kennedy out there making things happen. So we're supporting by donating a bunch of Warm clothing.

Some of our warm hunt gears being donated to those families that are up in the hills and don't have houses. And so that's what we're doing. Trying to support our fellow American OrdaUSA.com. Check it out. Made in America, baby. Yeah, made handmade in America. Very good. Also, Jock was a store called Jocco Store. So what this is is a place you can get your t-shirts, hoodies, got some hats on their shorts and all kinds of stuff. Apparel, if you will, representing the idea, discipline equals freedom. Good. Good. That one as well.

Anyway, it's jocco store.com. Also, if you are interested in what's called the shirt locker, which is a new design, shirt, every month, creative, maybe not the correct term, even though it probably is the correct term. But they're a little bit outside the box,

we'll say, but it's a new one every month. You have your own podcast with yourself, you know? People seem to like it. And you're having a discussion with Echo, Charles. Amen,

these things come up. This is Echo. We call it troubleshooting in real time. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Getting rid of the trouble, I guess, in a way. But nonetheless, yes,

it's called the short locker, but it's on jocco store.com. You can go there, click on their shirt locker. You know, you can get an idea of the kind of designs that we're putting out. Like I said, every month. It's a good one. So check that out.

So yeah, everything. Jocco store.com. Also, primalbeef.com, Colorado Craftbeef.com. Awesome steaks and meat for you, your family, from our families at primalbeef.com and Coloradocrafgeef.com.

Check them out. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also, jocco underground. We're getting ready to record one of those right now. Also, YouTube, psychological warfare, Flipsidecanvus.com, Dakota Meyer, making cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books, adult books, kids books. We're over here getting after it.

Check those out if you want. Eschlonfront. We have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. Go to eschlonfront.com for details. We're going to come to one of our events. You want us to show up at your location and teach the leadership principle. that we learned on the battlefield, go to Eshalantfront.com.

We also have online training of those principles that will help you. Yes, they'll help you with your team, but yes, they will help you with your family. They will help you as an individual human being. Go to extreme ownership.com for our online training. Take the free courses that are on there at a minimum. They're free. And if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families. You want to help Gold Star families.

Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors.org. Also check out Micah Fink's Heroes and Horses.org. And finally, Jimmy May's organization, beyond the brotherhood. And finally, if you want to connect with us, we're on the interwebs. I'm at jaco.com. You can check out all this stuff there.

We're also on social media. I'm at Jocko Willink. Echoes at Echo Charles. Just remember that it's an op. It's all an off. Stop. Don't fall for it. Thanks to our service members in uniform around the world

who put themselves into harm's way. So we can live our lives. And also thanks to our police law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, and all other first responders. Thanks for stepping into harm's way here at home to keep us safe. And everyone else out there, we spend a lot of time looking around at others.

blaming this person or that person or this competitor or that competitor and we get lowered into thinking it's them don't fall victim to the op don't be a divider don't play the game don't go down the easy path of destruction destruction is easier destruction is the shortcut don't go down that path instead build help others unify people find common ground and be a good human and that's all we've got for tonight

until next time Zeko and Jocko out