Jocko Podcast - 494: This is What It Takes to Be Undeniable. With Cameron Hanes

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

>Join Jocko Underground< In UNDENIABLE, I bring together outliers of today-men and women who are experts in their field, to share their unique and motivating perspectives on reaching the pinnacle of success and remaining there. From popular neuroscientist Andrew Huberman to ultramarathon runner Courtney Dauwalter, you will hear how undeniable individuals have obtained their winning mindset.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 494 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Ego. Good evening. Beat the odds. Break the cycle. Be different. Be better. Everybody has a mountain they need to climb in life.

What's yours? What summit do you want to reach? And what will you see when you get to the top? What self-inflicted habits will prevent you from getting to the peak? What sort of self-sabotage will keep you in the middle of the pack? Imagine this. What would your life look like if you changed from being passive to being passionate? Do you have an elite level talent?

No? Well, neither do I. Those with a ton of talent generally aren't running at midnight after a big couple of days hammering miles and long plane rides. To everybody out there with talent, congratulations. I'm just a scrub compared to you. I know that and I accept that. But all I know is that you won't outwork me.

Whatever talent you have and we all have some untapped talent inside of us. If you don't sacrifice, then you won't reach your full potential. That's what they call wasted potential. Don't ever live with that. When you live a disciplined life, you deserve to get to those mountain times. Are you standing at the bottom looking up? That's okay. We've all been there.

The beginning can be overwhelming, but you just got to start chipping away day after day. There's one thing anybody can do in life, and that's hard work. What I do to be undeniable is to work every day. I don't know what's going to happen next month or even this coming weekend, but I do know what's going to happen tomorrow. I'm going to run that fucking mountain. I guarantee you that. It's never too late to begin to be someone new,

to stop the bad habits, to start new ones. Yesterday is over, and tomorrow isn't guaranteed. Today matters. Make the most of it. And that right there is an excerpt from a new book. It's called Undeniable How to Reach the Top

and Stay There, written by Cameron Haynes. and Cam knows a little bit about making it to the top. But he also knows about being at the bottom. He was a regular guy, grew up without much, hardships at home, was on the path that many people follow in life. Beers, bars, and a bleak outlook. But then he found something, something hard, something tough, something rewarding,

something called bow hunting. An arena where hard work can be used to win. And I've thought about this. I think it is an arena probably more than any other endeavor where hard work can bring success. And that's what Cam Haynes did. Worked hard. And his hard work paid off.

And he became one of the most successful, recognized, and influential bow hunters in the world. and he wrote about his life in the book, Endure, how to work hard, outlast, and keep hammering. And we covered that book on podcast 334. And since that time, Cam's written this new book called Undeniable, capturing a bunch of lessons and not just lessons from his success, but from scores of other top performers who lift, run, and shoot with him

on his Keep Hammering Collective podcast. and it's an honor to have Cam with us here again tonight to share some of those lessons. Cam, great to see you. Thanks for coming down. And it was a bit of a... That was the first mountain top is getting up to the day. Yeah, I got a text on whatever it was Monday or Tuesday. No, I guess it was on Tuesday. You're in Alberta, Canada. You're on some bearer and you're not coming home until you get some. Yeah. And I was so thankful you understood. But so first of all, huge honor. for having me back. I mean, this is, I was supposed to do a lot of podcasts this week.

This is the only one I've made. So I don't know if that's good or bad, but I got here finally. Finally got those bears killed and we're here. But thank you guys for having me. It's, like I said, it's quite an honor. Well, I hope you knew what you were going to get from me. I'm like, bears come first. The hunt comes first all day. I'm like, we'll do this whenever. Like, you got to take advantage at the time you got the opportunity to kill some bear, man. that took the pressure off because I don't know, you know, you don't know what it's like to communicate with somebody like you probably, but I'm like, God, this is going to be the toughest one. You know, because I pushed them all off, right?

But the other, the other texts were pretty whatever. I'm like, do I have to really? Because I was like, I need to get these bears because I got to got to do Jocco's podcast on Wednesday. I got to get there. I got to get there. And then you are so understanding. Does nature work against you when you have like a deadline like that where it feels like it. You know, it's like, oh, I got to get this done.

And then it's not happening. They almost don't care. Mounds don't care. Mounds don't care. Mounds don't care about nothing either. So it felt like nothing was going my way. And I was just like, I might have to get my mail forwarded here because I'm not leaving. I've invested so much time.

I had to stick it out. So thank you for being understanding. Man, I'm just glad you could make it down. Awesome to see you. Cool. You got a bunch of, like I said, you've got this new podcast. Well, it's not new. but you've been doing this podcast for the past couple of years,

keep hammering collective, and you brought in all these studs from a whole bunch of different arenas of skills, and that's what you've been doing. And you've captured a lot of those lessons in here, so you've distilled them down and made it cool. Let's start with the title of the book, Undeniable. I'll go to the book here.

You say, I might owe Rogan for the end. Inspiration behind the title during one visit I was sharing how I was able to train with all these different outliers and how that allowed me to pick their brains and see what made them tick I was able to run alongside the best of the best and that is how you progress Anyone who's ever risen the heights in their field has always learned from the greats and has always strived to add tools to their toolbox Now I was able to immerse myself amongst winners to try to learn from their mindset It's like the expression be undeniable Joe said there's a certain level that you can achieve in life that can you can say all you want about Michael Jordan, that motherfucker's undeniable.

He's one of the greatest basketball players that's ever walked the face of the earth, if not the best. That's just an undeniable person. And it's very few people that get to that undeniable place. And if you really want to have no excuses in life, you're going to have to be undeniable. You're going to have haters. But those haters can all suck it because they're just lying to them. themselves.

Yeah. Joe comes up. Man, Joe gets on a roll sometimes. Yeah. Then that idea of being totally undeniable and just working your ass off. And that's what we're kind of going to get into this before we hit record. But I was thinking about bow hunting and hard work.

And the fact that I can't think of another endeavor where just raw. hard work can pay off in the same way. Because, you know, if you're, you've got to be in good physical condition. Like, let's say you've got to have good endurance to be a bowhunter, but you don't have to be an Olympic level of endurance. You've got to be strong, but you don't have to be Olympic level strong or NFL level strong. You've got to have good hand-eye coordination because you've got to be able to hit your target. but you don't have to be a major league baseball level.

Right. So you can take those like the average skills that a human have, but you work hard at them and you run thousands and thousands of miles and you do thousands and thousands of pull-ups and you shoot thousands and thousands of arrows. And that hard work will put you in a spot where you can get the job done. I don't know that there is another sport that translates that way. Like wrestling. Like hard work is going to get you really close.

But then there's just some guy that's a natural, just a total stud. Like he's got that explosive energy. Or, you know, you can name a sport. Name any sport. You know, basketball. Okay, cool. Michael Jordan had like really big hands. I don't care how hard you work.

You're not going to grow your hands. Right. And you just, you, you, in bow hunting, it's just raw, hard work can give you such an edge. Yeah. And really like you, it's like the top. I don't know. I don't know about that. But, yeah, it's work does have a huge payoff in hunting.

Um, where people, I think I had another big advantage is I grew up in a small town where being a hunter was cool. Mm-hmm. So all I cared about was being out. because in hunting, it's that time in the field. It's picking up those animals' tendencies. It's noticing the small things. It's just being immersed in it. And that doesn't happen.

It's reps in a different way because it's just time in the field. So you can't spend too much time because you can't learn too much. You can't be, you know, there's just so many, you know, hunting. There's like a million different decisions. on one stock. Where does set your feet? You feel the wind. Oh, do I need to adjust where I'm going

because this wind is coming, you know, through this draw. Well, I mean, a million different things. Staying out in the shade instead of being in the sun. Just reading what the animals are doing. So that happened when I was a kid because I was just out all the time. And then I'm like, well, shit, I can train.

and I can push harder than anybody, I'm still going to get that experience because I'm out there more, but then also I can just be more focused, have more endurance, and be not infallible in crunch time, but that was always the goal. And so, yeah, it's for somebody like me of average skill level,

you're right, hunting is, it was the only thing. What else would I do? Yeah, and now that I'm thinking back to the book, It's when you're just going deeper than anybody else. Like you're going, you're going to just go so deep into the back country that you don't have any competition anymore.

You just outwork them going back. Yeah, that's what I'd always say is like in regular life, I had no advantage. Like there's always somebody who knows the right people or has more money because maybe their dad had fucking money. Who knows what. Or they went to an Ivy League school.

They're going to have an advantage over me in pretty much every setting. until we get to the mountains. Yeah. And then I'm just like, guess what, guys? None of that shit means anything now. All those fucking advantages that you make your life pretty easy and pretty nice. And so I would, yes, I would be able to go hard, but then also there's another part to that.

It's like how comfortable can you be? Because if you're just pushing by yourself, probably the biggest challenge of that is being by yourself in the mountains. A lot of guys get strength with other men. you know you get confidence you make you're a little more bold you just yeah you just feel more comfortable when you're by yourself in the mountains for like 10 days that's really hard and so this is when you went your first bull hunt in what 1989 yep your first Alcon Bo Hunt 1989 and how old were you I was 19 I think so now these years where you're developing like this like 22 23 it's

not hunting season, are you going out and just backcountry camping, like walking around, studying the animals, seeing what they're doing, and running? I wasn't really running at that time. I ran just to get, like for football we'd run in the summer. I was always in pretty good shape, but I didn't, like not the 100 or 200 mile runs. I didn't do that until I was about 30 some when I started, when I had my boys, first. And I was just like, you know, I just, I got to be better. I can't be drinking. I can't be, you know, I, you know, I, fuck, I was young and married and you'd like get, like, start a fight

with your old lady so you could go out and drink with the guys. Pretend like you didn't, you weren't doing it intentionally. You plan on get, getting in a fight so you can, I'm fucking out of here. Then you're just like with the boys. Yeah. And so I would do stupid, you know, I don't know if everybody does that, but I fucking did that because I just wanted to go out drinking. Yeah. And then when I had Tanner and that was like, I think 93 and the True at 96, or my wife did.

And then I'm like, a fucking loser dad is pretty gay. Because now you're, you know, these boys. And I said this, you know, the other day, I was on Chris on Modern Wisdom, with Chris Williamson, and I just said, I go, if as a parent, if my, if my kids had these these amazing talents and they do. But if I didn't get that out of them, I didn't do my job as a dad because they could have been, what could they have done? And I was just like, nah, you know what, you guys are good? You don't like doing that stuff. I know it's hard. It's fine. So they wouldn't even be, they wouldn't live up to their potential. You read,

that about untapped potential. Now, like that's, you know, man's greatest regret. Well, to me, my greatest regret would be untapped potential of my kids. Maybe, you know, Truitt is doing amazing things and inspiring a lot of other young men. And so I thought, I need to prepare the, I need to get whatever they're capable of. Let's get it all out of them. So that was when it changed for me. Squeeze it out of them. Would you go, I can imagine, look, it's hard to, so now you stop, you stop the drinking fighting or stop the fighting with your wife in order to go drinking. But now you're just like, hey, I'm going to go spend the weekend in the mountains just by myself. Yeah, I would, I would.

How's that conversation go? It's not hunting season. I'm going to leave and I'm going to go spend the weekend in the mountains. Yeah, she was always pretty supportive of me because I remember we first started dating and I killed this giant buck. And she was like, oh, so you hunt? I'm like, yeah, hunt. And she just thought it was just like her dad. Her dad would go in like one trip a year.

And so then it was like, so I was gone. I killed this giant buck. And I had it in my truck, just the head, like in the front seat. And it was like to hide everything. And, you know, then she was just like, what is up with this guy? So she, you know, that was right when we first started dating. So she got kind of immersed into my lifestyle pretty early. You knew that I was, you know, pretty obsessed.

Yeah. I was driving with my wife across the Coronado Bay Bridge. She was my girlfriend at the time, but we were going to the San Diego courthouse to get married. And as we're driving across, I said, hey, I'm a frogman. That's not just my job. That's who I am. And I'm never going to change.

And if you don't want to get married, to me. I totally understand and it's okay. And she just like chuckled and I know who you are and I know what you are. And I said, cool. And we got married. But very similar like she knew and I kind of told her that out of the gate. This is what I do. This is who I am. And I'm not going to, we're not going to get married and now I'm going to be like, oh, you know, I'm going to take a short duty job or whatever. Like I'm not doing any of that. Right. And I think it's good to, if they understand who you are up front is probably going to be a much better chance of survival. Yeah. And I mean, you ask, you know, because today's my anniversary, right? That's right. And at 33 years. But

you asked, you said something about the bear. And I said, yeah, my wife was pumped. And you didn't know if I was joking or not. But no, she was pumped. She was like, I called her from, I killed that second giant bear. And I called her. And I said, Trace, you won't believe it. I killed Scarface. And she was like, you did. You know, just. You got to have cheerleader. Right? You got to have people, if you care about something not much and your spouse doesn't give a fuck, it's going to be tough. Yeah. I mean, they got to want you to win.

Yeah. You know, for this to work. For sure. So she's always wanting me to win. Good. Good to go. I guess you open up the, look, this is a bunch of people in here. The first person that you put in the book is Goggins.

And he's telling the story about this race and Goggins feet. You guys are running this race together. Gagin's feet are all jacked up. And, you know, he kind of does a little stop, pit stop to check out what's going on. And you just decide you're going to keep running. And you say, you say, I assumed that David would get it figured out and would catch up with me. But I couldn't help having doubts. Maybe I won't see him again.

But no, sure shit, he caught back up with me and my brother, Taylor Spike, who was running the race. By the time he reached us, he was running. in a different groove. Just as we were going up the last grade to do one more summit in the race, my calf began to lock up so I couldn't run. As I started to power hike up the hill, that's when Gagins took off.

When I reached the top of the mountain, 30 miles into the race with only a couple left to go, I asked a cameraman who was up there how Gagins looked. Well, he had his shirt off. Remember, it was cold and rainy. And he was saying, they don't know me. They don't fucking know me, son.

Who was he saying that? to I asked the cameraman, nobody, there was nobody up there. Yeah. That was, you know, because I was worried because I'm like, Goggins had to stop because he had to undo his shoe. I don't know what's happening with his feet, but normally in those races, people, just like, I made up an excuse to get in a fight so I could go out, drink here.

People will say stuff and then they're pretty much done. Yeah. Right. And I'm like, is fucking God is is is Gaggins not who I thought you know what I mean because I didn't know I didn't you don't know you see online you didn't know him son I fuck I didn't know and you read the books and you're like I don't know those are just words I don't know until I'm actually looking at somebody and actually see what they do all the other shit everybody says all the tough you know like a badass

you write make these stories say these you know you're not you know you're right make these stories say these you know, whatever. And I'm like, fuck, that would suck because I've been looking up to him forever and for being a badass, right? And I was like, God, I hope that, whatever. I hope, anyway, yeah, he, so he proved that day and every other time he is the real deal. But I was like, I was worried in, yeah, that got, you know, he beat me in that race. So, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, he, I worked with him for a little bit when I was in the training detachment. And like we'd be out in the desert and we'd send the platoons out there. But we'd, we'd have target sites set up. And this targets would be like 10 miles away, 12 miles away. And, you know, it's a bit of a chore to like, you got to bring all the gear up there and you set up these target sites that the platoons are going to hit. You got to put furniture in them and put lights on them and stuff like this. And we would like load up the trucks.

and Goggins would just run out there. And you'd be like, okay. You know, it's like right on. And the other funny story was there's another type of training that we do, which is close quarters combat and going clearing houses, right? And when guys make mistakes, you get punished. And the way you get punished was doing tire pulls. And so you'd have like tires and various other shitty things to do.

And like I show up to the training site. and you know I'm down in the house and watching guys do clearances and stuff and like like David is is not teaching he's I go what's what's what's what's Gagin's doing they're like oh he's running the tire drills and I go I go what do you mean and I go out there and see if he's he's just out there when the guys would get in trouble and get punished he would just do their punishment with it he was like the freaking tire petty officer he's freaking funny no he's He's definitely, he loves to suffer. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know that.

But, and I realized in that race and then we've lifted and we've run since, but where most people falter is where he actually gets better. And so that's pretty rare. I mean, you saw he loves training those fighters and he's rough on the fighters. Yeah. Fucking Tony Ferguson and then stylebender recently. It's just, you know, he's just got a lot of endurance. Yeah, he's been working on it for a long time

Fuck You mentioned Chris Williams Chris Williamson earlier And this guy was like a I think the term Echo Charles you might have to check me on Party Boy is that In his previous life

He was like a party boy Does that make sense? Yeah like nightclub promotion Yeah and he was on a reality TV show Did you know that? I feel like I knew that Yeah I didn't see the show

And then he kind of woke up one day you know, had like a little bit of an awakening. And he's got the podcast now, the Modern Wisdom podcast and stuff. Yeah, he's got a British accent and all that. Yeah, he woke up with that accent. That helps. That makes you some smart. So smart.

Yeah. He went and did lift run shoot with you. And you say this in the book. After shooting arrows, we took a warm up run up Mount Piscca before grabbing the 72 pound rock in in my truck. The clouds had settled over the 1,060 foot tall mountain. So we jogged in a thick fog. for about seven miles before heading back to the truck to pick up the rock we took turns hauling it up the mountain

chris learned something that everybody who comes learns eventually there is no good way to carry a giant rock up a mountain and that right there is just life like it's gonna suck and you just gotta freaking get into it yeah yeah that is hard and people they come and i usually say we did both with him i wanted to like he's so well-spoken and has such a good way of distilling things down. So I wanted him to like share everything or I wanted to share everything. So I did, we did the run, we did the rock. I took him to where I grew up the little town, that tiny little logging town that I grew up. And I just, you know, showed him.

I'm like, there was like a manufactured home there and like a like an okay truck. I'm like that was my dream right there. If I could have single wide, double wide, whatever. It's like a trailer, but then they got a little nicer than they were manufactured homes, right? But still a trailer. Get a skirt. Still showed up on wheels, right? And I'm like, if I, if that, if I had that a decent little trailer and a truck that ran and a job I didn't hate every day, that's a win.

So I showed him that just because I wanted him. And now he's, you know, true to form. He's talked about that a few times. And he does a great job of, I don't know, just like put it in that in context. But normally I tell people, okay, I said, do you want to run? do you want to carry the rock? Well, nobody wants to run because they know how much I run.

So they're like, I think the rock would be better. It's not fucking better. It's not better. I guarantee you. But so anyway, we did both. And he, yeah, it was good. I was out surfing with my buddy, Seth Stone. And we, it's this spot where,

where there's, you can either go in on this cliff face where there's a decent chance you're going to get smashed or you can take this long paddle, which then you have to go across the beach and the long walk home. And so we're out there for a while. And I'll tell him, hey, you can go this way, they can go that way.

And he goes, hey, which one is easier? And I said, well, it depends what you mean by easier. Because they're both going to suck. You're going to get freaking mauled. Yeah. So how far up it, how far is it up Piscay? It's a mile and a half. It's a mile and a half.

Yeah. And it's 1,000 feet of elevation. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that's with 72 pounds. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's going to leave a mark. Yeah, it's just because it just,

it's on one side or the other. Tanner, my oldest son, is a little bigger. So he kind of rolls it behind his head. He's got the all-time fastest time. I mean, Huberman, I remember he said, he's like, so who's the fastest carrying this? M.MA fighter? I'm like, Tanner was filming because he was working for me.

I was like, no, it's just retard right here. And I said, and Huberman is like, what's the time? I'm like, you don't need to worry about that right now. Oh, day. Cold blood. Yeah, yeah. Because Tanner gets it up there.

I mean, he is a freaking beast. He doesn't get, you know. Bro, he's tapping into those ranger roots too, right? Yeah, he is. And it's, uh, yeah. So he's, he's just tough. Just tough. He's good at rucking.

Yeah. Rucking is a, is a, there's a natural level of ability in rucking that some people have. And it sounds like Tanner definitely got it. Yeah, he's got that. He says that's about always good at. But he has been learning. I really like that, you know, with the military, you, you know, I've heard guys say, you know, I'm a professional trigger puller.

Well, it's hard to get a job doing that in your life. So Tanner was really good. They had this place. It's a cold range as part of the Rasp over there. And it's navigation. And he was really good at navigation in the Army. And now he's, now he's working with. where I used to work.

I was superintendent of the, you know, of the water and power company there. But so now he's working there. He just wanted got out of the Army, worked for me for a while. Then he's just like, I just want a regular job, just construction. And he's really good at job drawings, like elevation of pipe and using the laser to, to get that set right. So he's, it's cool that he's using those skills from the military. And then, you know, he's just, he's just been through a lot of.

lot of shit. So regular job stuff, you know, like in the interview, they're like, have you ever, have you been in a stressful situation you've been in? Just like, kind of laughing. Because most people are like, oh, I got a flat tire on the freeway. It's raining, you know, but you guys have done a lot more than that. Jack. Um, fast forward a little bit here. You say, and again, get the book. the book is is when did it come out a couple of a month ago something like that may 5th may 5th yeah so get the book it's available right now I'm going to read some highlights from it but it's got so much good information and it's so much good like knowledge for human beings it says on the third week of the season roy and I made it back to eagle cap and that's when I killed my first wilderness bull a spike

bowl. It was 22 miles to the trailhead. See that right there, right there, you're already, you're already left behind 95% of human beings. 22 miles to the trailhead and we had two llamas to assist us. A spike bull doesn't yield a ton of meat so it wasn't too heavy weight wise, but it was still 22 miles. This wasn't the giant trophy I was going for, but the bull, but the bull was still a big mark of success for me. It meant a lot to go back there and hunt a country that people larger than life, heroes of mine had hunted. Roy didn't kill, but he had opportunities. It's just a tough hunt. Regardless, my friend was excited for me. We felt like we had done something monumental. This was our introduction to the brutal challenges

of the wilderness. Then Roy moved his family up to Alaska and started building his legacy as both a contractor and a hunter while I remained in Oregon. I tried to find people to share the wilderness experience with, but it was a hard time. It's not for everybody. You either love it and can't think about anything else or you hate it, not much in between. That sprawling remote country and the feeling of insignificance it brings is too much for some people. It made me feel alive. For the next 12 years, I ventured into the Eagle Cap Wilderness most of the time I was by myself. I stopped wasting the energy trying to convince somebody to join me. I couldn't afford to squander it as it took all I had to withstand those unrelenting mountains. Hunting on my own felt like

Nothing else I'd ever experienced while hunting deep in the wilderness. I saw the world through a whole different lens and through that altered perspective I had a stark awakening. I'm nothing deep in the back country if I die for whatever reason back here nothing changes Absolutely nothing changes the wind will still blow the same the animals will still carry on the mountains will remain unaffected nothing will change if I die I was I'm reading a book right now and And this guy is in Vietnam. And he says the exact same thing.

He's like halfway through his deployment in Vietnam. Guys are getting killed. And he's, he's just like, thousands of guys are getting killed every day. He has no impact on anything. I lost these three guys two days ago. The war has not changed at all. If I die today, it will not change anything. Everything will keep going.

The Marine Corps will keep going on. Nothing changes. And it's a liberating thing in a way. It's like, yeah, I'm going to do the best I can, but it's not that big of a deal. Yeah. I think we, you know, make a bigger deal out of ourselves our existence than we should.

You know, I remember when my dad died, I was running. And I just couldn't believe I would just see people driving. And I'm like, they don't know. They don't care. They're going to go get coffee. There's nothing, nothing changes. All that changes was like, I was in pain. You know, my dad's gone.

And I'm like, but you look around and you're like, what does it mean? And so I can imagine with war with being faced with that much death, I don't know. I mean, I came home from Iraq in like 2006, and I remember, you know, I'm with my family now, and like we walk down the street to get ice cream for the kids or something. And it was just no impact of war to any one there at all, except for me. I'm like in a totally different world. And everyone's just like, like you said, they're getting ice cream,

they're getting coffee, they're walking around and everything's just carrying on. And that's the way it is. I know. How do you, I mean, isn't that one of the hardest things to deal with for people coming back from being deployed? And then you're like looking at, do you almost get mad at people? Like, you see people complaining about their fucking dinner or whatever? You know what? Shut the fuck up.

I've been talking a lot about that. You know that silly, there's like a fable about the scorpion and the frog? Have you ever heard this? So the scorpion says to the frog, hey. Hey, can you carry me across this river? And the frog says, no, you'll sting me. And the scorpion says, no, if I sting you, we'll both die. And he goes, okay, yeah, makes sense.

So the scorpion jumps on the frog and he starts swimming across and then the scorpion stabs the frog and they both die. And before they die, the frog goes, dude, why did you sting me? And he goes, I'm a scorpion. And this, for me, is the way I look at people. Like, they're just going to do what people do. and I'm not mad at them, just like I'm not mad at the scorpion, and I'm not mad at the frog for trying to be cool,

and I'm not bad at the scorpion for stinging him. Man, people are going to be people, and they're going to do what people do. It's kind of like, you know, you wouldn't be mad at an elk because he smelled you and ran away. You wouldn't be mad at that elk. You'd be like, oh, elk is doing what the elk is going to do. And that's, I hate to say it,

but that's kind of the way I view people. It's like, they're going to do what people are going to do, and I'm not going to get, yeah, I can't, like, hold a grudge against humans for being humans. Yeah, I mean, but that's when you have that healthy perspective. Yes, yes. I would think that you don't always, you're not always that forgiving.

I mean, I would have a hard time with it, especially just, I can't imagine. I didn't serve. I can't say I can only assume, but man, I don't know, be tough. It takes, it would take something, someone doing something really like, really truly offensive to piss me off. You know, bad-mouthing, you know, like a fallen friend of mine or something like that might get me like pissed, but, you know, I came home.

And, you know, it took probably took me up, like that specific day, literally walking down the street with my kids to go buy them ice cream and seeing people doing what normal people are doing. I was kind of like probably had four seconds of like these fucking people have no idea and then just being like well that's why we're doing it

so that they don't have to have any idea right yeah like they can be mad that there's not a strong Wi-Fi signal in the freaking Starbucks on the plane yeah 30,000 feet yeah I just I remember and I don't know if it's probably

you know some Hollywood stuff but American sniper I remember that Brad who is it Bradley who was it Bradley? was the actor? Cooper. Bradley Cooper.

Yeah, no, he was playing Chris Kyle, but he's just sitting there staring at the TV. And I was just thinking, that's, that's obviously a powerful scene, you know, just, yeah.

Yeah, that, and Bradley Cooper, he, he did a really good job, man. Like, when, when I first saw him, and I heard him talk in the movie,

and it was like, this guy did a really good job of imitating Chris. unfortunately what they didn't show is Chris was like actually a really funny guy and like a wise ass and he would laugh at people and make fun of when he was a shit talker he was like a a level shit talker all the time and having fun and they made him like real brooding in the movie and all that stuff which was a bummer but he did a great job but yeah that scene I think that's a real famous scene too because the way they shot it you know you're like just seeing him watching

TV and then you realize he's he's not watching anything. Oh yeah. So no. I had, I know that when I came like as as an officer in the military, you have a lot of paperwork to do. Yeah. And I remember my, and I went to college as a grown man. I was like 28 years old.

I went to when I went to college. And I would, I was like, I wanted to get A's. Like I, I wanted to beat the teacher. I wanted the teacher. to not be able to give me a question on a test that I didn't know the answer to. And I would study till I knew. And I can remember the questions that I missed right now.

Yeah. Like I can remember them because it wasn't that many. Because I studied, I went too hardcore. Yeah. But when I came home from my last appointment to Iraq, and I remember I had a lot of paperwork to do. When I was in college, I would do paperwork for nine hours straight.

Just I would like write papers or read or whatever When I got home for a little while I would be like a half an hour deep or like 20 minutes deep And I'd be like I'm going to do something else and I just had to I had to reaclimate myself to be able to have the All right I'm gonna do this thing that's tedious and stupid For a long period of time That was probably my closest to

Having some kind of you know Whatever symptoms of flashbacks or staring at a TV that's freaking got nothing on it. Yeah. I mean, did you miss the excitement of war? Yes. Yes, I did. The thing that was that I really noticed a lot was I didn't realize it.

But when I was over there, when I came home, when I was over there, I, you, If I wasn't going out with the guys when they were out, and a lot of times they'd be out, I'd have a bunch of different groups. You know, we had, we broke up into five different elements. So almost all the time, there would be like one group of five or six guys of my guys in the field. And you worry.

You're waiting. When there's guys getting wounded and killed every day, you're expecting one of your guys to get wounded. killed. And you have this, I would have this like, gnawing sick feeling all the time.

And it was, and I didn't, I kind of, I kind of, it became like, you know, when you're, when you're wearing a pack

and you got it rubbing you bad. And after a while, it just stops hurting because this is part of life. Yeah. So I got to that point. And then when I got home, I was home for maybe like a month. And we did like two weeks of

turning in gear and all. this stuff and then I had like two weeks of leave where I was just hanging out with my family and I woke up one day and I was just like I feel so like good today and and I don't know what is different I was like oh I'm not worried about one of my guys getting killed and that was another sort of feeling where it took about a month for that to go away when I got home of gnawing fear that one of my friends is going to get wounded or killed today, which sucked. Sucked. Yeah.

Yeah. Fast forward a little bit. Yeah. I just, I don't know. I'm always, yeah, the mindset of that, because, you know, they prepare young men to go over and fight. and then you come back and like that transition back is always like because I saw Tanner do it

and I just remember that you know it's always the army is always about or Navy or whoever is always about you know the team and the guys and the unit and everything and then you come home and then you're just by yourself

and so the army does a good job as saying you know kind of like taking your power away as an individual because you rely and your guys rely on you and you rely on them and you die for them and they die for you and all that. So they do this for years about it's all about the men

and then you're just undergone by yourself. And you're like, well, fuck, I thought I needed everybody but now I don't have anybody. So yeah, I'm always, yeah, that mindset and like how to deal with that. I'm always, yeah, because I get messages from people. And I don't know what to say. You know, guys struggling.

The thing that the other part of that is not just like the guys, but also you have a purpose. Yeah. Like you are, you are for lack of a better word of saying it, you're assigned a purpose in life. Like this is your job. This is your machine gun. This is what you need to be able to do with it. This is our task. This is our purpose.

This is where we're going to go. You have a mission in life. And that is freaking awesome. Yeah. And it's an awesome mission. I mean, awesome is maybe not the best word, but it is a, it is a noble mission. It's an important, noble mission that you are a part of. And you have that.

And then you've got a bunch of your friends that are also have the same mission. And then one day, it's gone. Yeah. Snap the fingers and it's gone. So that's why when guys talk to me about that, what I tell them is like, you've got to find a new mission. You've got to find a new mission. you've got to find a new mission, whether it's a job, whether it's your family, whether it's a sport, whether it's going back to school. But you've got to say, okay, I'm done with that mission and here's my new mission.

Because I think we're the worst mental spaces is, is I don't have a mission anymore. I don't have a purpose. Even for you, like reading in Endure and in this book, for you finding bow hunting, it was you have a mission. now. And then when you had kids, now you had another, you have these two very clear missions in your life, be an awesome bow hunter and raise awesome kids. Well, you take those things away from somebody. You don't, now what are you going to do? Yeah. It's not going to be, generally speaking, they're not going to go in a good direction. Yeah. It's, I know archery has helped a lot of people. For sure. I was just, do you know Caleb Brewer? No.

He was, yeah, he lost both his legs, an IED. And he was in bear camp this last week. He just killed, sent me a picture, but just killed a nice big bear. But he was Green Beret. Awesome. Yeah. So he has an Arsford Pro Shop, I think in, must be in Tucson, I think. Could be Phoenix.

But anyway, and that just helped a lot of veterans. For sure. So that's a big deal too. just gives them, gives, to focus on something, just like it was for me, but different. Yeah. And it's, well, the cool thing is, even though there's not a job for trigger polar in the civilian sector, hunting and bow hunting, you take a lot of skills that you use in the military, land navigation, you know, breathing right when you're getting ready to take a shot, packing out, like getting your gear ready to go on a hunt is the exact same thing as

getting your gear ready to go on deployment or go on a mission. So there's a lot of applicable skills that you learned in the military that you can just take and pull up apply him to hunting and so that feels good too yeah and i think i told i don't know if it's Doug Collins because he's on the podcast you know he's head of VA now but um it's like these guys like Tanner i can think you think about what well what job because it's not professional trigger puller but like the top of military they can do any fucking job yeah i don't give a fuck with it i don't know i don't care what the job is. They know what it means to sacrifice, to be there, to be do what's expected, to be a leader to. So give them a job. Yeah. It'll get done. Yep. It's just, you know, and that's why

I feel good with Tanner with the construction because he, he does, that is his mission. He wants to be the best at that. And that's, you know, I'm very in or I'm not, I'm, I'm just happy or relieved. He found something. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because it's like, it's not everybody does. And that's good to, like, I've always found when I was a kid I worked construction. And it's like you can visually see what you did each day. That's big. It's very gratifying. It's not like you're pushing papers or looking at spreadsheets or something or just doing a job where you don't see any progress in construction.

You get to see what you did today. And that feels freaking good. I think that's why people order so much shit from Amazon. You know what I mean? They feel like in a way in a weird way they feel. It gives them the feeling like they built the, thing. They like earned that thing when all they did was click, click and then showed up at their house and they kind of feel like they,

they did something good. It's like the freaking weakest dopamine gratification for creating something in the world is to order it on Amazon. What I heard too is people, they get the same sort of dopamine reward by saying they're going to write a book. So they say, I'm going to, and everybody's, oh, that's great. You're writing a book. got my payoff. Then they never fucking do it. So yeah,

we're, yeah, I don't know. Humans are, God, we're a fucked up species sometimes. Speaking of fucked up, here's something for people everywhere.

You say this in the book. I signed up for a 10K and quit at Mile 5. Yeah, we all have to start somewhere. Well, how did you quit at Mile 5? God, I was just,

I was like, just a fucking week. I was probably like, I was probably like, 23 maybe, 24. You're just, if you're just a regular person at 23, 24 with some shitty part-time job going to school, chances are you're not that tough. So I had been tough before because I played football and I was like, you know, did all that. And you ran track too, right? No, I didn't do.

I did football, basketball, baseball. Oh, okay. I thought he did track at some point. No, my dad was a track coach. Was he your dad's influence? Yeah, yeah, he was a really good track athlete. But no, I never did. Back in my little logging town, you weren't cool if you had a track, dude.

You played baseball. So, yeah, I just ran to get in shape. But anyways, at this time, I'd been out, you know, drinking and doing all the stuff. And I'm like, just my time was going to be terrible. I felt like shit. and so I just stepped off the course. Damn. Fucking terrible.

But and I see the reason why I know how all this works is so if I, so that was a loss, right, that day. Then whatever the case, I was able to turn it around. But if you just keep having those losses or you don't put yourself in position to where you might want to quit, you just avoid that all together, then that's how you end up at a, you know, just fucking overweight and not accomplishing shit and watching fucking porn hub every day. I mean, that's just, that's what happens, I think, to people. Oh, yeah. And it's like, I could have done that.

I could easily done that. But that, you know, quitting, you can justify it to yourself. You can make up all these things and you start to believe your own BS, you know, as we know, for whatever the case, I was able to, yeah, I just felt like a failure. And, but it was the kids is, it was mostly just having, you know, I just knew that my boys, you know, I had, I had a shitty life. They had, you know, their dad, I was there all the time, you know, when I wasn't hunting, but I had a regular job.

My wife loved them and was always taking care of them. I'm like, these, these kids are going to be big fucking pussies if I don't push them because they got everything. They didn't, I was, I was miserable, so I felt like it made me tough as a kid and made me tougher. No, aside from quitting that race, but, but I knew my kids, I needed, you know, because you said, like, well, you wanted to raise good kids. I actually didn't care by raising good kids. I just wanted them to be prepared for getting their ass kicked and getting, you know, having to overcome and that life is going to be competition.

So I You know that's all I was kind of focused on Yeah Another lift run shoot guests that came on your podcast and fast forward And again get the book Retired National Football League Defensive and Derek Wolf And this dude

You know you talk through some of the stuff in the book You know rough rough childhood Low expectations People telling him he's never going to be anything Etc cetera et cetera et cetera And And, but he, you know, obviously he made it, made things happen in his life. And he says this, you quote it in the book, if you fail, you fail, but you're not afraid to fail, right?

And you push and you push and you push. And what you've done is you've found something that you love. You chased it as far as you could go and it hasn't slowed you down yet. It just keeps getting better, better. And that is inspirational. And anybody can learn. Anybody can do it. anybody can go and find something they love to do and fucking chase it so many people too many people

are afraid to chase those dreams they're afraid of failure wolf encouraged them to keep going what if you do fail he said then try again motherfucker go yeah yeah and you know how it works people fail they have this big goal and they're like i'm going to do that i see i see with bow hunting all the time. I'm going to do this. I'm going to kill a bull elk. They realize how fucking hard it is. Then all of a sudden, they don't have time to shoot their bow. They're not going out. They're like doing something different. Now they're in pickleball. I thought you were bow hunting. Oh no, that was too hard. Oh, okay. But that happens with a million different things. Nobody, yeah, I mean, just sticking with it. Yeah. Shit. It's like I wasn't the best athlete in my high school,

but I just never quit. So I graduated. I don't even know how long ago it was fucking 40 years ago. And I just have never quit training. So now I guarantee there's nobody I went to school with that can do what I do. It was just the long game. Just outwork them over the freaking four decades. I got you now, fool.

I'll see you in 40 years. Yeah, because I remember I didn't, they had most athletic and I didn't get it. I was like, Glenn Roberson got it. I'm like, what fuck? He was a center on the football team. I was the leading scorer. Did he play baseball? And what did you say?

You played basketball football? Yeah, he did. He was a catcher in baseball. I think he was okay. So how did he get it and you not get it? I don't know. I was probably, I don't know. He was probably a better athlete.

But all I know is like, fucking challenge him now. I still remember that shit. 40 years. Speaking of hard bow hunting and failure, I'm fast forward a little bit. Perch on the top of one mountain while surrounded by snow cap peaks, I see him.

The doll sheep was in the distance, sitting like a king, wearing his massive, cold, curled horned crown. Right away, I begin to approach. Mindful of where I step.

These mountain ledges can be treacherous. One slip and you die. I move down an incline, then up another peak. My legs ache, but I'm not tired. All those miles from the past year, the past decade are paying off.

I ease to within bro range. At a chip shot range of 23 yards, I try to sneak my arrow over a rock into the Rams vitals. I hear an almost inaudible tick as my arrow arches toward the ram but catches stone, causing the arrow to hit low,

cutting the ram's leg. I have confidence I can make the threaded, I have confidence I can make the thread the needle shot. Maybe too much confidence. My dream animal is so close and I make a bad hit on him. My goal in the discipline of bow hunting

is perfection and I work toward it every day of the year. Every day I'm working to hone my craft and my abilities and then I just fucking fail miserably like this. I feel sick. And this freaking hunt for a doll sheep is like yeah.

You throw the stats in there And it's like to get a tag, it's almost impossible to get a tag. And then they put out like 100 tags and one person or two people or maybe three people will get, will actually fill the tag. Yeah. That's how freaking hard it is. Yeah. It's very tough. And that, you know, incidentally, that was in 2008.

So I've only had two sheep hunts in 40 years of hunting, essentially. That was my first one. Then I've had one like maybe four years ago. So I've killed two Rams. but it's those opportunities don't come up you're not 23 yards from a ram and then that country is very steep that is it's the same tag so that tag is a little easier to get because the season starts october first and goes to the 10th which in those mountains right there you can get some pretty intense weather like 80 mile winds so that's why a lot of people don't kill it's like the weather

can come in and you know high elevation in alaska but then when I talk about how treacherous it is, that is right where Roy fell and died. Is he, that where I screwed up was on one side of it, very close to where he had fell. It's just super steep, super unforgiving. One screw up, I mean, you just, you might not get another chance. And so we had done everything perfect. And it's like, you see that day, it's like that picture's from right there. That was on my birthday, October 2nd.

And we were like as high as we could be where, you know, I got the RAM. But it was, it took a lot for that to get in that position. Then I screwed it up. And I made my way back up to Roy because he was watching. He was just like, nice shot. Because I hit it like, I think it was this wrist. But it'd be like cutting your wrist. So I got lucky in that I broke its ankle essentially cut that.

cut that artery so it was bleeding but uh i said yeah i was like shaking my head i said i said we'll get him he's like oh i know we'll get him but might be a while and i killed him the next day he was on this cliff edge and i was able to get down and get another arrow on him even in this picture you got a freaking ice axe with you guys like this is like this is no joke of terrain and incidentally with on my first elk hunt, I did the exact same thing. And I remember coming back to camp. And I didn't recognize the fact that people missed, you know. I was, I didn't even understand that.

I was just like, I'm the only person who's ever missed and I'm a loser. And I sat down with you at the table and you're like, hey, dude, I had a freaking 23-yard shot at a doll sheep. And I missed it. All right. I did this. You basically shot the same shot I did. Yeah. In the leg.

I did the same thing with that elk. He's bleeding everywhere. But we didn't find it that night. So we'd come back empty handed. But that was, uh, it was very reassuring to me. I'm like,

well, if that freaking dude came in is like, had a bad shot that I guess I'm not that horrible person. Yeah. I felt like a bad human being. Yeah. Like I'm a piece of shit. And that,

I mean, there's so many people there at that, cam and like you feel like everyone's looking at you going to hear about fucking jocco nobody knew right but you that's how you feel so I knew exactly how you felt and yeah so it's like you got your bowl yeah you know sometimes you make perfect shots sometimes you don't but you just got to make it you know stick with it and you never know you got I got lucky in hitting that I'm not going to say you got lucky but sometimes I got lucky but sometimes I got Sometimes you can be off by this far and you miss the lung or you hit the shoulder blade and you get no penetration

You're not getting that bull you're only two inches off. You just caught that shoulder blade or you can be this far off and get it and you're like Is that fair? No life's not fair. This is way it fucking goes. Yeah It's a rough freaking game. It is Um Fast forward a little bit crunch time This is when everything comes down to one heart racing moment the bow hunter shooting shooting at his target. The game winning basketball shot, the pup for victory, the sprint toward the finish line. This is the high pressure moment when the work you put in and all the time you spend

and all the resources you've used comes down to one single point. The key to my archery success over the past 35 years and the way I've been able to master those crunch time moments has been consistent practice. I want to make my, make shooting a bow as natural as taking a breath. And the only way I've found to do that is through daily dedication, shooting every day. Weight vest, no weight vest. Pack, no pack. Sun or rain or snow. Coat on, no shirt, shorts, pants, bathrobe, one sock only and nothing else.

Doesn't matter. I just shoot. I focus on the process and perfect it. Yes, you can be the best hunter in the world and in better shape than anyone, but if you can't make the shot at crunch time, you simply won't find consistent success. You've got to practice shit to get good at it, man. Bottom line. I mean, you can get lucky because we both kind of got lucky on those animals we just talked about.

But when I say consistent success, yeah, that's not, you can't get lucky consistently. How many arrows would you shoot a day when you were like 30? I probably shot more back then. That's my guess. Yeah. Like when you were really developing your technique. I would shoot for hours a day. So I would say probably, I would say probably 200 arrows a day.

But I would always try to shoot 15,000 a year. So it was always my goal. There's like no thought happening anymore at that juncture. No. No, you're just going through. Because I mean, and I was telling like we had some new guys in camp. It was our first bear hunt. And so I'm going through like, I don't even want to say.

I saw them doing some things wrong. I'm like, how do I look? I'm like, I don't even want to mention anything. because it's only going to fuck you up. You know, if, because one, like they're grabbing that bow too deep and hitting their arm. And so I'm like, you just have to, the grip has to come here. But if all of a sudden you've been practicing like that over and over and over and your bow sided in for doing it wrong, if I fix it in crunch time, who knows what's going to happen. So all bets are off.

Yeah. And, you know, Not that guy, but the other guy ended up getting a shot and hit the bear in the leg, back leg. So it's just, it's fucking hard. And that was at 20 yards. It's just really hard to keep those emotions in check. And so the only way to do that is you have to take, you have to make the shooting part subconscious. And then you can focus on your emotions.

But if the shooting mechanics, you're still thinking about those. and you have these emotions to deal with, chances of fucking hitting that thing. Good aren't high. It's weird to, like in camp, guys that are freaking good, like awesome. Like, just blow shots. Just blow shots.

Yeah. And they'll be like, I don't know what happened. Yeah. You know, you're like, like my first time I'm like, wait, this dude missed a shot. I'm like, I'm going to, there's no chance. It's freaking crazy.

It's a rough game. Yeah, that's, uh, um, that's one thing like, because, you know, I don't know what release you shoot, but the big, the big fad is like these back tension releases and the, all this other shit. I still shoot the old school. Like people make fun. People make fun of how I shoot. Mm-hmm.

Even the biggest names make fun of how I shoot. And I'm just like, is it shit dead? Yeah. Is it dead? Then I guess it doesn't fucking matter. But like with these releases, because on paper, these guys will shoot, like, in Vegas,

they have this big tournament, 60 arrows or 30 arrows. I don't know what the fuck it is. I don't shoot tournaments. But they're like in the X every single time. I guess, yeah, it's 30 arrows around. But so the X is fucking tiny. Every arrow in the X or a 10.

But you put those same guys best in the world, the same thing, and they'll still fuck. up hunting because on the target it's not going anywhere you got as much time as you want you can focus on your mechanics when an animal with moving and you're doing all this it's like so when I say the people say well why don't you shoot this back tension relieves are so much more accurate I'm like well if these okay if these guys who never miss on a target never miss on an animal then I'll switch but they're still fucking up all the time so it can't be that great and how you

shooting the same thing forever too right yeah like you it would be crazy for in my opinion that's like i've shot the same type of pistol forever yeah probably hundreds of thousands of rounds right for me to now switch to a different mechanism of pistol right i'd have to re-educate i'd need to get brain surgery to like re-educate my mind yeah yeah so and that's i mean that's kind of how i feel about shooting if i what i would I would say is like if all of a sudden I start fucking up a lot then I'll okay I need to get back to whatever need to figure out what's going on but I still kill on every hunt and have for a long time. Did you have someone teach you how to shoot or did you read it in magazines or like how did you actually learn or did you figure it out by yourself? No I mean you have somebody kind of give you the basics but

back then everybody shot too long of a bow so my bow is too long and so I'd have to anchor like with my thumb behind my neck and the string would be like back here because draw length like all the bows came in like 30 or 29 inches I have a 27 and a half draw and so it was too long so I'd anchor weird well now this is how I do it so I still anchor that way the bow fits me but if any of these pros look at me they'll be like well can't puts his thumb behind his neck even weighing at the bow rack who you know my best buddy he's on the bow rack for 30 years he's like he used to tell me we got to fix your form i'm like i'm not fucking changing anything and so i haven't and he now he never says anything yeah of course he just like okay never and then as as the technology too

got better because you know the technology on boas and the and the sites and everything is And did you get to a point where you're like, all right, this is kind of what I'm sticking with, like with your release and everything. This is what I'm doing. And you see new releases come out. You don't even pay attention to it anymore. Don't even. I mean, yeah, I don't. I know what works.

I change broad. I'm very slow to change anything. I changed broadheads recently to those grim raper carna fours are kind of an expandable. And they opened like a 2.75 inch hole, whereas I was using a fixed blade head. and those were like an inch and eighth or inching a 16th. So, you know, with an arrow, it kills from hemorrhage. A bigger hole is going to kill that out of a quicker. So that's been like the only big change I made in a long time.

But yeah, I just know what works. Like I said, if I started struggling and I, you know, I wasn't making crunch time shots, I'd be like, okay, I got to figure something out. but um speaking a speaking of shooting world champion archer levi morgan you had him he says uh you have to be able to adapt to all different or you say this you have to be able to adapt to all different situations in bow hunting Levi said whereas in a tournament in the tournament world he knows the situations he's dealing with that's why hunting teaches him a lot it prepares him for those tournaments you can't

replicate that feeling when your heart rates up and you're nervous and you know if you don't make a good shot what's writing on that it could be an animal of a lifetime it could be a world championship that feeling you can't replicate there's no way to practice it and that's everything that you just said and so he actually goes and hunts so that he gets like learns more about controlling his emotions and everything to be ready for target archery yeah i think they both help each other but he's like he's a machine i think 16 time world champion He just, like we shot, he came out, we shot. And it's like, I beat him on a few, but got pretty lucky.

He's fucking a machine, dude. But still hunting, a whole different thing. Because that was 3D targets. And he's still super successful on hunting. But it's different. It's just different. It's like, I always, you know, I just did that. I don't know if you saw it, but I did a big race recently is 257 miles.

And it's like, you can be in shape. You can have all the best stuff. You can have the best fuel. You can't simulate not sleeping for two days and still having to push. And your feet torn up because they're wet because it's been raining and your skin got soft. And so you just can't simulate that. That's hunting. You can't simulate what those emotions are, what that bull is going to do.

how you're going to react, what's going to happen. You just have to be there. You can do all the shit you think it's getting ready, and I'm sure it helps, but you just have to be there. Yeah, I was saying in training for MMA or Jiu-Jitsu, you cannot simulate what is going to happen exactly in the fight.

Because like if you and I are training and you grab a hold of my neck, in a fight, in a real fight, like there's no way that you're going to squeeze as hard as practice as you will in that real fight. Yeah. And it just is, there's a one more level of reality that's going to hit. And it hits in fighting. It hits in jiu-jitsu and it hits in hunting.

Like you cannot simulate that shit. And it hits in running. Yeah. Ultra running. But yeah, it's, yeah, I don't know. It's, I think any, you know, so those are all very performative gut check type endeavors that you just, mentioned, that's a lot of people avoid those type of situations because it sucks and that like most people don't excel when the shit gets really hard. So yeah, it's not fun. Not fun for sure.

But to get good at it, I don't know. You have to do it. Yeah. You say this, focus often breaks down for one reason. Fear. It can be fear of failure or fear of falling behind. It can also be fear of being mauled by a giant bear. There are many ways fear can ruin the focus you must have for the task at hand. Being able to conquer your fears is just part of the journey that takes you from a humble beginner to a seasoned veteran in whatever field you might be in. Fear is a defense mechanism, which kicks in naturally because above all else the human body wants to survive.

When fear hits as a big, fat dose of adrenaline rushing through your veins, it leaves those who aren't mentally strong enough, shaky, panicking, and not in position to make the best decisions. Outside of the back country, our normal life seems secure and comfortable, but deep, but in deep, that will change. We will definitely be separated from all the conditions that make us feel safe, our home, our family, our circle of friends, the money in our bank account, and our physical health. Uncomfortable thoughts racing through the minds of new wilderness hunters can be debilitating. How do you use fear or anxiety as an advantage?

as we know, fear is normal. So the big question is, how will you react? The key is being able to answer that question. When you can anticipate and understand your fears, then you can do something about them. Like Levi Morgan, you can figure out how to adequately adjust to those fears. Once you do that, you'll be a much more deadly and lethal as a hunter. And you've got to put yourself into those positions to know how to deal with them.

I was in the military, you're going to do things that are going to make you afraid. And they kind of build you up over time. So, you know, like in boot camp, they're yelling and screaming at you. Okay, well, you learn how to deal with that. And then they shoot machine guns over your head, right? You learn how to deal that. And then you climb over the cargo net on the obstacle course, which is like 50 feet up. And if you're scared of heights, dude, it ain't comfortable.

It's a little sketchy. You got to throw your leg over. But then you're going off the slide for life. and then you're repelling off the tower, and then you're rappelling out of a helicopter, and then you're parachuting, and they just keep elevating the amount of fear that you're feeling, and hopefully what you're supposed to do is each time,

you're like, okay, I learned how to overcome that. Okay, I learned how to overcome that. Okay, I learned how to overcome that. And then they put you in stressful situations, too, where you're going in the room, and there's people screaming in the room, and you've got to hit this target and doing everything for time.

You do all kinds of shooting for time. It's freaking ridiculous. Yeah. But all they're trying to do is put, pressure and stress on you. So that way, when the pressure and stress comes, you're ready for it.

And you learn how to deal with it adequately. That's something that, from a leadership perspective, something we'd find all the time because leaders are the same way. Like, you're going to get put in a situation where you've got to make a decision.

Yeah. And if you're not used to it, you don't know what's happening. Bro, you'll fall apart. Like, you'll just lock up. I've seen people do that countless times. they're in charge bad things are happening

and they freaking just lock up yeah and you but I've also seen when we train them properly they learn how to like oh I'm starting to lock up right now take a step back take a breath look around all right make a call like it's that

those are little small adjustments that you make and you'll learn how to do it but people that have never done it before bro it's freaking it's they lock up sometimes some types of people I think maybe the last time I was here, I think you told a story about, I don't know if it was in training or something, but we're like, you're like looking at the situation, but then you just like maybe rose up a little bit just to get a different, a little different perspective on it. And so I said this the other day when we were bear hunting with those new guys. I'm like, I said, here's what I do.

when a bull's coming in, I'm getting rid of shoot. I consciously take a deep breath and relax my shoulders because so many people are just like fucking this, you know, and they're just like, do you really think that was going to work? But you're not, but if you could just consciously just like you rose up and, you know, took a look. If I can just like consciously relax, man, it makes a big difference. Makes a big difference. But to like to take yourself out of that moment, it's hard, really hard. Yeah, where I originally learned like the breathing thing Yeah

Is when you talk on the radio in the teams You don't want to sound panicked You don't sound like right You're a freaking Yeah, you're a panic And so you'd be like See something going on you go Keep up the radio and be like

Before you keep up the radio You go Hey there's a jocco we need to move to building 54 And everyone thinks you're super cool right Yeah Yeah You're like gonna make it only 54 And everyone's like, you come back and you're going to get freaking ridiculed.

And you'll screw everybody up because now everyone starts to freaking elevate their panic scenario. So, yeah, literally taking a breath. I'm glad to hear you say that. Same exact thing. You just go, and it just reminds you like, okay, take a wrap off, relax your shoulders, and we're going to make this hit. That's another thing I've been saying lately. Somebody asked me a question a while ago, like, how do you deal with?

going into stressful situations. And I was talking about how I'm like super humble, you know, training, getting ready, preparing, like, all right. But when it's go time, like I become in the last moment of execution, like when I put my night vision goggles on, like I become unstoppable. Like, I can't be killed. Of we're going to take on the world. My platoon's the best in the world.

No one can stop us. And I think that attitude. and even training like MMA fighters. Like we'd be training an MMA fighter. We wouldn't be like beating the shit out of him when he's two weeks out from the fight. No, we back off. And you're not letting him win,

but you're also not beating the shit out of him because you don't want him it's confidence to be broken. Yeah. And when you go in, when you're, when your cage side about to put a guy in the cage, you don't say like, and remember he's got a really good left hook, you got to be careful.

You don't say that shit. No, you say you're going to fucking murder this guy right now. Yeah. And that's, I've used that now in archery as well where like when I'm getting ready to step up to like a 3D target you know I'll walk up that thing like I'm gonna fucking smoke this thing right yeah like go through the protocol this thing's getting smoked and it's been very helpful

yeah definitely well that mental it just reminds me we were talking about animals earlier and how they can just kind of pick up on emotion it was I killed that first bear and my camera guy was there and there's this bear he'd kind of been there's some bad bear just like bad dogs right and you can kind of look you're just like yeah fuck this thing's going to be a pain on the ass and there was one he kind of charged me the other day and um so james he was like going to go this bear was on the bait because we were over at the other bear and he's just like oh the dominant boar's gone now because he's dead now he's like thinking he's going to run the show so james is going to run over go over there and get good pictures of him and i'm like

I said, that bear knows. And he's just like, so he's trying to like, like kind of spook the bear off. And I'm like, you can't lie to that bear. Because James was nervous. That bear was not going anywhere. And I'm like, you can't, he knows. And so then I would go over there, just walk right over. He'd take off running.

So it's like they can just like, it's like a horse, you know. If you're afraid to be on a, that horse. feels your fear. The animals are exactly the same. So if I think the point is, if you believe and you're like, I'm more, a more dominant predator than that thing,

you just, you have a different energy. And then that, the animal feels it. But James didn't quite have that yet. So he's like, fuck. And it's like when you get,

you see like a basketball player, have a hot streak. Like they start thinking, I can't mess and they start shooting better, better. Or when you're ahead, you know, like they start getting like three, four, oh, now we're up six points. They start taking more risky shots

and they're making them. Yeah. It's because they're just cocky and there's a certain level of cockiness in the moment that is yeah. Totally good. Yes. As opposed to,

and it's just like Jordan like, oh, there's one second left and we're down by one point. Give me the ball. I am going to make this shot. Yeah. And it was like, yeah, dude, you're like the apex president.

here, we're going to give you the ball, and you're going to make the shot. Yeah. That's, I love, I love when a guys in basketball get on a, on a roll. And then they do like what's called a heat check because they're like, I can't fucking miss. So they might, like Steph might just come right over half court and pull up because if you're really on one, you're going to hit that one too. So it's a little heat check.

And it's just like, so if that one goes, then fucking look out. But yeah, it's fun. It's fun. When, when you have that. unwavering confidence like when you put your nods on it's like is there any greater feeling i mean that's fucking the pinnacle yeah and just for people that are wondering you can't just bullshit that like the bear knows and the world knows if you haven't trained hard if you haven't put in to work if your weapon's not cited in properly like all those things you can't just put your

nods on and be confident think you're going to win no you're going to get your ass kicked just like you're going to miss that shot. Yeah. You can't fake it to be like, oh, I'm not worried about my boy. I haven't been shooting much, but I'll make it happen. Yeah,

I'm good. No, you're not. You're lying to yourself. Yeah. You know it. The animal knows it and you're going to freaking miss. Yeah. Yeah.

Huberman. You had Huberman on. He says, or you say about, about him being able to have that tunnel vision focus, or as Huberman called it, being able to bring your mind to focus on such a little narrow, cone of attention is something that is necessary in life and something that those who are undeniable

are able to do. But we need to be able to big picture focus as well. And that also is a very similar to me of what you were talking about with like taking a like taking a breath. And if you get tunnel vision on anything, you might miss other components that are going on. Like you like in hunting, if you're charging, you're trying to try trying to go, trying to move and you miss the fact that the wind shifted and now you you blew it and so you got to be able to focus but then at the same time you got to be able to take a little bit of a step back and see what else is going on otherwise you're going to blow it yeah what i think about there is like you're so focused on a bull that you don't see this cow that bust you and takes a whole herd because they spook right so it's like you

have to be able to look at everything and think about you know you said wind and everything else but yeah it's uh i was Huberman wrote a great forward for me. He's fucking so smart. But I really wanted him. I want him to hunt because like I told him, he

like operates up here. I don't know how his brain works. It's not like my brain. But I'm down here. I'm like, oh, I'll carry a rock and fucking kill an animal. That's about his, you can't get any more fucking caveman, right? So I'm like, if I could get him to weigh in on what hunting means with his brain, oh, he could just explain it so well to people. You know,

it'd probably make, because I can explain it to people sort of like me, but not some neuroscience. I don't fucking know how to talk to those people, but he does. So wouldn't that be sick? He seems fired up. Like when he shot with you, he sent me a text like, dude, I'm, I think I got the bug, you know. So he seems fired up. What I loved is, you know, so he came up. He, he spoke to the university there, had like 500 kids to talk about science on a Thursday. It's like, God. So you're like, I'm going for a run. Sorry.

Yeah. No, I went, but I'm like, why would these kids be here? But he's just, you know, a scientist rock star kind of, right? Because he's just cool. But, and he's just got something about him. It's like that if factor. Like, what, well, how do you explain it? But yeah, so we did the rock.

We shot. Did we, I think we might have. lifted. But anyway, we did all the stuff. The rock was hard. He had a goal of not setting it down the whole time. So no joke. And he didn't. And he did a good job. But so it was all like very out of his comfort zone type things. And he, you know, he was, I think he's 49 now. So maybe he was 48 at that time. But he left like so out of his comfort zone doing all this new stuff, a whole different world. and he left saying that was the best day of his life. And I'm like 48 years, like he's famous, he's rich, he's, you know, what a beast.

And like this was a great state. That's amazing to me that somebody with all his success could come into my, you know, basic ass world and appreciate it. And that's, I mean, that kind of impact is. So him shooting a bow and hunting and doing all that, I think I'm just excited for that opportunity. And I think he, did he post pictures of you shooting in his yard like standing on top of his saw or something like that? I was on the roof. Yeah. Yeah.

It was. Was that before or after? Did you go down and do his podcast or something after he was on yours? No. Yeah, that was after. That was just recently. I kind of went down. He moved from where he was.

He was kind of right below the Hollywood sign over there. in L.A. But yeah, that's where that was. So that was just probably a couple months ago. Uh-huh. And was he shoot? Is he like consistently shooting now?

Huh? Sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, he texted me like, dude, this freaking archery shit's badass.

I think I got the bug. So he's such a good guy. Is he lining up a hunt then? We've been trying. Yeah. I want to, you know, I want to take him on one.

Like a high country elk or mule deer, fucking hard. So I want to like maybe access deer and, you know, Maui or somewhere, or Joe and I went to Lina. That's actually pretty hard too. Those things are fucking cagey. But a bear hunt would be perfect.

That's wild. Yeah. The bear hunt out of the gate. Yeah. Get the blood pump. I know. Bear, I just love hunting bear. Another lift run shoot guy you had on.

Nick Bear, Army dude, you know, and a marathon runner and a strength athlete beast to type individual and it says here the key is to make a plan and stick to it next said to not deviate from it and if you miss the goal you have to go back and revise and refine that plan you hop back on that track and you keep working toward it nick said once you realize you can pretty once you realize you can pretty much do anything you want you're unstoppable so again it's like you start to see these consistent messages coming through everybody that's talking here. You have to do the thing.

You have to do it consistently. That's the biggest thing is people ask me like if they're what's consistent, what's a consistent theme with all the guests, all the outliers. It's just like they just love and are obsessed. You can't, I mean, if you don't love what you're doing, you're, you're not going to put in enough work. Right. So like training, Courtney right there, running the mounds.

is like there has to be you have to have that passion or love for it. Otherwise you won't put in the work to become an outlier. So if it's just something you see somebody else do and you're like, I think I might want to do that. That's fine if you start to do it and you're like, I live for this shit. But these people, whatever it is they do, they live for it. And that's just so finding that, you know, we talked about the military guys coming out and like having that purpose. That's what's hard.

It's like I got lucky with Bowman. hunting. They got lucky with whatever the fuck science or running or training. But yeah, it's like and there's no, there's no formula for that. It's just you. What do you care about? That's the big thing in the book, Outliers. You ever read that book before? Yeah. Is those individuals like, yeah, they got some natural talent. Yeah, they got some, a good situation that they're in, but they just freaking love doing it. Like Tony Hawk, the skateboarder. Yep. He didn't really, he was like this tall, lanky kind of kid, so he didn't really have some physical thing. But his dad would be like, Tony, can we go home now? And he'd be like, let me just try this trick. I'm going to do it 72 more times. It'll take me 30 minutes. Can you come back in 30 minutes? And that's what he was like. And he's nine years old. And he just would just stay at the skate park doing the thing over and over and over again. And if you don't love it, you ain't going to do that. No. That's, I mean, you know, true, it was kind of like that. When he was kind of like that when he was.

was a kid. He would, he would like watch TV, but we had this ab roller, you know, the little wheel. And he'd just be like straight, side, hours. Because all he wanted to do is have a six-pack. So he was like eight or nine years old and hours of training. So now, and people like, oh, it's cool. You get the world record on pull-ups. He, what's not cool is being in your garage by yourself for 12 hours. Yeah. Doing pull-ups for 12 hours because one thing this also happens is he tried to go for the official world record, you know, it was the one Goggins had, but it got broke before that.

But he tried to go for it. So his goal was to get 8,000 pull-ups and he shit the bed at 4,000. Wasn't even fucking close. And, you know, I was there and I just, you know, I was just said, it's not happening today. your body just cannot do it. He just wasn't putting in the work. Some people, and for a day, he was like, well, maybe, maybe I just don't have what it takes. Maybe I just can't, I'm not even close, half.

4,000 is a long way from 8,000, right? And what separates him apart is it doesn't matter what it is. He'll be like, I just got to work, I can do it. He never has any, his confidence is unwavering. I was like, oh, no, I can do it. I'll just out work. I'll out train everybody. And that's what he did.

That's how we got the 10,000 pull-ups, you know, and nobody's, you know, got close since. But the 12 hours in the gym and doing, he was like doing 2,000 pull-ups a day, you know, for seven days. So he'd do like 14,000 pull-ups in the week. And, you know, now- would he do them, you said 2,000 pull-ups a day? Yeah.

And was he doing them like in one shot? Like he would just go to the gym and spend two and a half hours or whatever it was in the gym and just do 2,000 pull-ups. Yeah. And that was sort of his protocol getting ready for breaking the record. Yeah. And Gagons was a big help. I mean, Gaggans, you know, pretty much hates everybody, which is fine. But he doesn't hate Truit.

So he like knows he's kind of special, like has like this. He just, Gagins loves. people who train like that. You know, that's what, that's what his whole life has been. It's like, how much can you take?

So he sees Truitt and like when True, went for this official world record, I mean, Gagons was calling and giving, telling him what to do exactly what to do. You got to get his heart rate down. You got to, it's like so invested in it. So it was pretty sick.

But, you know, Trude just did a last man standing because you mentioned Nick Bear. It was down at, you know, Bearer's property and tech. And the last man standing is you run four miles an hour for as many hours as you can. You have to get your four miles done. Then you have to be on the line to start the next hour.

Chad Wright was there. He can be really good at those two. But there are some freaks there, right? And Truit, it's like this is his first last man standing. He's got crazy endurance, but not this type of endurance. This is a whole different deal. And his goal was to win it because I told him, I said, you haven't won shit for running.

You know, he's got really fast marathon times. He does the jeans and it's like it gets all these fucking goes viral. But I said, I need you coming across a win, right? Because that's the one thing you're missing. You got the world record. You're fast. You're shredded. Let's get a win.

So we thought, well, he could win this maybe. A whole different level of people. And so now he's just like, okay, now I know. He got sixth, I think. He ran 113 miles, but not even close to what it took. Or what the winner do? They had to, they canceled it. So how it goes is basically last man standing, you have to be the last one to do that lap and then you win, right?

Everybody else has to quit and you're the last person to be able to finish a lap. Big storm came in. There's two guys who just would not quit. One guy from Germany, one guy from, fuck South Africa or, I mean, South America somewhere, I think. And they were just not even, I mean, 230-some miles, still unfazed. And just like flooded, lightning, wind. And so they said it was unsafe. So they were co-winners, essentially.

But, yeah, I mean, this fucking, it's a mind game because Truitt, I was like live feed. And I could see he came in way late, like barely made the cutoff. So I called his wife and I'm like what's what what's going on and I was telling her I said he can't show weakness You can't show he can't be like looking at anything. You can't be shaking his head I said because everybody's watching everybody else and it's it's just a if you think somebody's not even phased You're gonna be like I can't beat this fucker. So it's it's just a big show. Yeah, that's like you can ask echo Charles how many times he's seen me tired when when we train Jiu-jitsu. It's like I will never show tired. Like an hour in, I'll look the same. Just like, yeah, that's what we're doing. It echoes not quite as good with the poker face. Yeah.

Well, here's what happens like in these long endurance races is like Courtney's super positive. She's always telling people, oh, you're doing great. And there's some people who are like, I'm not, I'm not wasting positive energy on, I'm not getting somebody else in a better mood. I'm not wasting my whatever to make them feel good. So guys won't say shit. Because it's like you only have so much of that. But also I bet like if you were hurting and you know Courtney comes by and she's like, oh, you're doing great. And you're like, wow, is she even freaking talking to me right now. Like I'm going to lose. This is freaking terrible. Well, is another weird thing that I don't know, you know, humans are so.

crazy species, but if you, if you smile, even by yourself. So I've tried it. Running by myself like fucking idiot, smiling. You're in a better, you get in a better mood. You get a little strength from that. Put it in a manual. I don't know. It's weird. It's weird, but yeah. Speaking to Courtney, you say if any, if anybody's life is an example of true compounding consistency it has to be Courtney DeWalter. She is the legendary ultra-girl who's considered the goat of trail runners. And yeah, dude, she's like a freak, like a genetic and just freak of a human. She won the Moab 240 first place overall.

By hours. By hours. Yeah. And the thing, and I've heard you talk to her about this, the thing that is, crazy about that is when you're ahead by hours you can back off. You can be like, oh, cool. I can, you know, take a little breather here and, you know, get some water, but she doesn't do that. No, pushing, push, push, push, push. The entire time. I'm like, why? But yeah, her, yeah, she's, and that's so hard, because I've talked to Huberman about this a million times. It's like,

fucking willpower. How, why does somebody have more willpower than, and how do you measure willpower? Because running, just running is just how much will you push? Because you're not going, like in the mountain races,

you're not going fast. So it's not like you have to be able to run a four minute mile. It's just you grind it out, nine minute, everybody can run in a nine minute mile. Not everybody, but a lot of people. How long can you run a nine minute a mile?

how long to you're like, I'm not, I'm walking. I'm fucking, I'm exhausted. But for her, she can do it for days. I don't know. So why? I mean, it's not like she's the fastest. There's a lot of people who have a lot of endurance. Why?

What gives her that willpower to push when everybody else would, would stop? I don't get it. I don't understand. It's like, so I'm telling Huberman, fucking give me a number on this shit. Yeah. What? I want to measure willpower. I don't know.

It's crazy, though. Yeah. Was it you that kind of enticed her to do the triple crown thing? Did you put that idea in her head? Well, I mentioned it. She had never mentioned it to me. And maybe she had thought about her talked about it. I didn't know about it.

But yeah, I said, I said, could anybody ever win the three most basically prestigious hundred miles in the world in the same summer? Because June got one just coming up. It's Western, then Hard Rock, then UTMB over in Europe. And nobody's ever won them. I said, could you? She's like, like to try. I said, I think that'd be a good goal for you.

And she did. Yeah. You know, I've heard, I don't know what the staff. are but I've heard like some crazy number that it takes some crazy amount of time that it takes to recover from a marathon yeah and it's like oh you you take four months or something to recover from a marathon because I and the reason I remember is because they used to win in hell week which I don't know what it equates to with the marathon but it's it's like five or six days of a lot of physical stress and we used to think like well how long does it take to recover from that shit yeah

but doing like a hundred or if it takes months to recover to recover recover from a marathon, how long does it take to recover from 100? Or is there's just another level of fitness that these marathoners didn't used to be at that now you guys that run this far are like, it's a different level that you're conditioned for it more and it doesn't take as long to recover? I don't know. I mean, you know, because we just did, Cocodona was 10 marathons, essentially, 250-some miles and with 40,000 feet of game. So it's, uh, I don't know. And you roll in here and say you're not limping, you're walking normal,

you just came out from a freaking hunt. Yeah. So obviously the recovery, recover you. Oh, I'm banged up. You're back down. It's been a month.

It was, I mean, my immune system was so shot because I slept two hours and 80, took me 84 hours to finish. So three and a half days, I slept two hours. I was definitely ripe for any sickness. And I got fucking so sick.

All of them. Yeah, I was like, I had to go to the hospital. The hospital is like such a wasted. I'm like, I'm never going to the hospital. What the fuck? They don't do anything. And so I fought it off for a couple days. And finally the guys, because I was like,

I was supposed to come home three days earlier. I couldn't move. I couldn't get out of the, I couldn't, I'd take a simple water puke. And so my body needed everything because I just, you know, pushed it. I was depleted and I couldn't take anything yet. So they came in,

what do you think about going to the hospital? I was just like, yeah. So anyway, they gave me some zofran or whatever the fuck it is so I could eat at least. And yeah, but I don't know, those, yeah, those races, man, they're not good. Have you done, have you run since you got done with that? Yeah. How many days of no running did you do after the race?

Maybe a week. Probably a week. Yeah. I ran like probably four days in bear camp this last one out because other I was hunting. That was one thing on the bear hunt that sucked. It's like my advantage is physical. Sitting on a stand, I have no advantage. So my only advantage was, okay, I got to sit longer than anybody.

And that's what I was doing. How many hours a day where you're sitting? It's like, I mean, in three days I sat 40 hours from the same stand. And my cameraman, I felt bad for me. him. I told him I was giving him a $5,000 bonus because it's like, fucking, dude, sitting there in the rain for 12 or 13 hours. And, you know, this bear hadn't been seen by humans ever in the daylight. It's like, what are we doing? But when I had, so all my advantage, like I said, was gone. I didn't know what else to do. I just got to be out here more

than anybody ever has because they've never had anybody spend that much time. And I'm like, I guess that's what I got to do. So is it a stand like a deer like a tree stand type thing or is it a little bit more built out or are you comfortable in it at all? Well, it's on the ground. So like a little brushball. I mean, most of the time they hunt the bear like because people don't want to be on the ground with a bear. So they're in a tree stand like a deer. But I've killed so many bear over the years.

Like when they invited me up there for the first time in 2013, I said, yeah, I'll come up. You got, you know, big bear. I like, you know, it sounds like a good challenge. But I said I'm not not sitting in a tree stand. So I said, we let me hunt them on the ground. And so that's what I've done up there since 2013 is I just like being. I always say eye to eye. I want to be eye to eye with them.

Yeah, you posted that picture of you like with that sow just look just freaking so close. Yeah, that was cool. That was awesome. I love it. I mean, you know, my wife or like even that outfiters like don't get killed. and I'm like, they'd have to get really lucky to kill me. I mean, in Black Bear, you could get killed. They kill people every year, but they'd have to get lucky.

I mean. You ever seen anybody swimming with great white sharks? Uh-uh. Yeah. People do that. That seems like a... Risky? It seems like something I would not be that into.

You've seen them, have you seen them surfing? No. Like, never see like, jaws the fin come up or anything. I haven't. I've seen whales out there. Obviously, you see dolphins all the time. But I've seen sharks in the water at San Clemente Island, which is where, like, we have a little training facility out there in the seal teams. And I've seen sharks out there, like, you know, you're getting ready for it.

They canceled swim. They canceled a swim for us because there's too many sharks, which is freaking crazy. But, yeah, there's definitely sharks out there. And now that they have drones flying everywhere, like, they're seeing, there's sharks all over the coast of California. Wow. They're everywhere. Yeah. And we just never knew about them because they don't put their feet.

fin up, you know, like you see in the movie, Jaws. They don't do that normally. Right. But they're, but now they have drones up. It's freaking, they're, they're, bro. And it's like, people I can't believe there's sharks. I'm like, it's freak the ocean. Yeah.

This is where these things live. Yeah. It's no surprise. But people swim with, with great whites, you know, and like hold their fins. Like a thrill or what? Yeah. Yeah.

And I think they have the same like, you know, you're comfortable. You've been around enough bears. And I think they've just, they've just, you know, pushed the envelope and gotten closer and understand and read the signals and all that stuff. In my mind, it still is like, hey, man, you got a great white shark. Like, those things seem like they might be at least have some level of unpredictability. But again, these people around them, I've never been around a great white shirt.

So I don't know. Maybe they're like, oh, yeah, don't, you don't have to worry about them as long as you're here and you do this, you don't do that. Like, okay. Yeah. That sounds pretty intense, though. Yeah. I don't really think I would do it, to be honest with you right now. Now, again, if I had one of them talk to me and coach me and be like, hey, here's the deal, here's why we do it, here's why we get away with it, here's what they're thinking, here's what they, you know, here's why, here's how you do it.

Maybe. In fact, I might even lean towards yes. Nah, I don't know. Echo's shaking his head of big negative. Do you surf echo? No. Oh. Does the body surf if that counts?

Yeah, I had this. There's this seal that lives like two houses from me. He lost part of his arm and training. But he's going to go do that swim back. Is it around Statue of Liberty? Oh, yeah, New York. Yeah. Yeah.

He told me to ask you if you're going to go do it. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm friends with the guys that run that thing. Yeah. And they're always like, can you get out here? So I don't know. Yeah. Is one a congressman or something like that,

who's part of it a bunch of guys do it oh yeah like a bunch of guys do it but there's I think it's pretty much like a bunch of seals so I'm sure if some of them there's a bunch of there's so many congressmen seal

so they're all just being congressman writing books and being congressman that's that's this the post seal career thing well did I mean did you have any interest in like getting a position on this new

administration You know, I'm, I love America. And if America, if they, if they stepped up and asked me to do something, I would do it. You know, I mean, I, yeah, I love America. And if America wanted me to serve, then I'd serve. But I'm not like, you know, maneuvering to try to be in for it. Yeah, I'm not lobbying to get into it because, you know, I don't really like politics. And, you know, even before we hit record, you know, we're talking about just how crazy the political world is.

And, you know, but again, this is America. And I love this country. And if I was asked to serve, then I would. I don't think I'd be able to say no. I think I'd be kind of hypocritical if I said no at this juncture in my life. Wouldn't it, wouldn't it be frustrating to want to make a difference? And then, because it's like I went to that, uh, make America healthy again thing and like you know RFK and all those guys are there and Trump was

there and everybody and FDA was there it's like all about you know I don't know fucking seed oils and prescription drugs and all the shit and it's like red dye 40 I'm like it feels like to me like the FDA they're there just kind of like pretending they care but they're in their head or like my impression is they're like going how long do we got three and a half more? years. Okay, we'll just fucking pretend like we care and then we can get back to business once this guy's out of here. So it's like, do people really want to make a difference or do they just like they're kind of in their groove, they're playing the game and it's like theater. Yeah. Well, there's there's we everybody kind of knows that term the deep state, right? Yeah. And then

even a, but it might be hard to define like what does that actually mean the deep state? What do you talking about like what are you talking about there's weird there's there's shadow people in control so it might be a little bit hard to understand that or to believe that but when you say unelected bureaucrats that are embedded in the system it's very easy to see those people because there are unelected bureaucrats that are embedded in the system they've had a job for 15 18 20 years they've got their little fiefdom that they protect protect whether it's in the fda or the IRS or whatever government agency you want to talk about. And they're there and they want to protect that thing.

And generally speaking, they want to grow it and protect it. So I want to, if I got this job, I want to hire more people underneath me. I want to get more money from the government to make my job bigger. Yeah. And you multiply that times hundreds of thousands of government people. Yeah. And yeah, of course, when an administration comes in and is like, well, we're actually going to do away with some of budget. What are they going to do? They're going to be pissed and they're going to resist.

Yeah. And so, so that's what the fight is there, at least a lot of that fight, I think, from the people that are in D.C. right now that are part of this administration that have a vision of what would be better for the country and they're trying to execute that vision. But there's some unelected bureaucrat that's like, well, you know, we can't quite do that. Did your computer go down again? Sorry about that. Oh, your email's not working. Sorry about that. Oh, we, We didn't get that part done and they're just holding their breath. And hopefully they can create enough chaos and mayhem in the next three years that they get someone that's more supportive of a bigger federal government and they can hold onto their job longer. Yeah.

It would just drive me insane because I feel like there's people who like I said, they're pretending. And they're saying they want to help and like this is amazing. But what do they do? Do they really want a change? because it doesn't seem like it. So is that the feeling that you got up there from everybody? It sounded, I mean, it sounded good. It all sounded good.

But it's like, you know, if you look at like the ingredients of food in America compared to these other countries, you've seen those lists, right? So they're putting these fillers and this cheaper shit so they can make more money in our diets. And they make sick people. They make overweight kids who need, who aren't accomplishing much. They're just going to be kind of consumers. And they have, you know, they're on these drugs.

So they're getting prescription drugs all the time. All that whole system's making money. They're dependent on doctors and health care. So they're not like changing the world because they don't, they don't want people changing the world. They want people like conforming and, you know, they can make money. So it's like, I'm like, do these fuckers really care or do they just kind of like how it works now? This is the machine. Right.

And we're just like part of the machine. And I want to believe that they care. We're like the fuel in the machine that keeps the machine turning because we're the ones that are getting made sick and getting all the stuff. Yeah. And so I mean, I want to believe and I want it. But then I'm like, why would the FDA give a fuck? They haven't cared until now. Now they're at this maha thing saying, yeah, we want to be part of this.

Do you? I'm not convinced. Yeah, and what kind of those people, what kind of relationships do they have with the big pharmaceutical companies and those other things. I know. Actually, Rogan just had Cash Patel on.

Yeah, and it was like, I saw it pop up as I rolled in here today. I'm like, I don't want to go listen to that thing. Me too. I saw that. But it's like, I wonder when they recorded that. I wonder if they recorded it before the Elon, Elon Trump thing. just popped off like was that today yesterday or yesterday yesterday it popped off yeah so i don't know i don't know

if they recorded that before or after it's just yeah it's just nuts it's like it's a whole different world you go back there i mean we were walking back from like dinner i was with that brigham you know brigham from ways to well oh yeah yeah anyway we're walking back and i'm like i'm like god dang what is that building he's like that's our hotel it's like these it's so it's like it's So much money in this building is like called the, it starts with the W. I can't remember like this $1,000 a night. Right. And then you go in there and like all these politicians are down there in the lobby.

And I just like think they're like going and putting on the show like, you know, scolding these people. You know, like the confirmation hearings, right? And I talked to it. It's like such. That would be the worst thing about trying to make a difference in one of those positions like with Tulsi or Doug Collins. or Pete.

Yeah. It's like all this shit you're gonna have to listen to about in this. They just wanna make you say. And then oh yeah, then you're confirmed. It's like, could we have just skipped all that where he tried to ruin my life? Yeah. Remember that part?

Yeah. And you, yeah, you ruin my life and humiliate America in front of the world. What are we doing? That's what, I mean, it would be amazing. Because even like I campaigned for Trump in 2020. I went with Don Jr. and Ted Nugent. We did like some Kansas.

and pain stops. I got so much hate, but I was like, you know, if this could make a difference and it's like it could impact the country, then it's like, as you said,

it's kind of my duty. You know, it's like, what else is there? You know, do something for our country. It's like, what can make a positive difference

for America? But man, then you're like, fuck, is it worth it? Holy shit. Yeah. And then on like a personal level

for those people, when they step into those positions. Like you said, like for Tulsi to sit down in that chair and just be ridiculed and attack and your personal life picture part. And that's what you're volunteering for. You know, like, oh, that's what you're going to get.

Like, oh, you're going to have to, like she lives in Hawaii, bro. If I lived in Hawaii and I was Tulsi and they asked me to move to Washington, D.C., and be like, fuck you. I'm going to be over here. But, you know, she's a patriot, you know. She is.

She wants to make a difference. She wants to help. Yeah. And you can see how challenging it is to have this total misalignment. And to have people just would rather, would rather like throw the game. Yeah. Then have, you know, the star get some points. But you don't know that they're throwing it because they're doing it behind the scenes.

So they're saying they're on your side. while they're sabotaging you. And, you know, and then even like I go, she's like, could you come talk to my like security team? All the they, you know, like she said their fans or whatever, all the best people. All the fucking, it's mostly all guys. There's one, I think one woman.

But the, you know, Patriots just fucking putting to protect her. Right. The best people. And it's like, so there's like, those, type of people and then there's the dirty politician types. Then you got people who want to make a day. And I'm like, and then you think, okay, well, now we got right now the Republicans have everything, probably gonna lose the house or some fucking thing.

So then the next two years after that will be trying to impeach Trump. Yeah. No work will be getting done because they'll be trying to impeach him the whole time. So when is any work getting done? The first two years are trying to figure out who's on your side or who's trying to sabotage you and then you're dealing with a bunch of. BS and I'm just like oh my god this is our fucking country it's how it runs it's crazy it's so dysfunctional and it's because it's because the nature of of bureaucratic elements is they try and grow themselves

they try they just are going to try and grow themselves and when someone comes in to try and take away their growth they just try and attack it and kill it that's it's like that little thing that I said of like, oh, if I got hired to run freaking, uh, uh, the street repair in my town, cool. The normal person goes, you know what? In order to do the street repair, I need more money. I need to hire two people. And when they're like, well, do you really need to?

Oh, do you want this freaking streets fixed? Yeah. And then by the way, when I hire two people, those two people are like, well, you know, I also need another person. We need a little more money. And that's what happened. Then you just multiply that time. Every freaking type of government order.

And you look up in whatever 200 and how many years old this country is and every little element has grown I mean, wasn't it crazy the board the the Department of Education right? And and they got created by Jimmy Carter or something like that. Yeah. And since then every every aspect of our education has gone down like we test worse. We have worse reading levels. Everything is worse when that when that when that since that organization got created. But that organization was, it wasn't just like a little organization. It was freaking huge and it grew over time and just apply that across the board. And then when those people get threatened,

what do they do? They do what you say because they're politicians and they're little snakes, right? And so they don't come out and say, hey, I don't think this is a good idea. Here's what we're going to lose. No, they go, oh, yeah. Okay.

And then they hide and they freaking bite people in the back and stab them in the back. And that's what's going on. Yeah. It's really disgusting. Yeah. And I do like that Trump has got people in who weren't like this career politician type, like, you know, like Pete. You know, I don't think he was on TV or something like that.

So because once you pull people, if that's all they know, it's going to be really hard to, I'm sure there's some good ones. Yeah. And I think Trump with the space or whatever with the lost election in 2020. Yeah. When he came back in 2024, he's like, oh, yeah, I learned it the first time. Because the first time he went in, he did get fairly decent amount of bureaucrats that were kind of standard DC people. Yeah. Thinking that, okay, well, you know what?

This guy's got some experience. I'll bring him in here. And those people were not. Yeah, he was firing people like every day. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. It was just, I don't know.

I want to believe. I want to believe that good people can make a difference. I love Tulsi. Doug Collins is like, you know, I listen. I love what he says. says and he says, but he says he has 400,000 people working for him. I'm like, 400,000. That's rough. Yeah. Where would you start? Yeah, especially when, when whatever percentage of it of those people, of those 400,000, right, even if it's 10%, even if it's just 10% of those people that are

trying to jam up your changes that you're trying to make 40,000 people are trying to, hey, I don't think we should switch to this new more efficient computer system. So I'm just going to freaking unplug the computer today. Yeah. And that's what they're doing. I know. Yeah. And then, you know, because I sat on a plane with the guy and he had a, he was a Marine. I don't know what he was, but his dog said Marine service, something like that. And I never know if these guys, you know, want to talk. I don't want to, I don't want to bother people. So I just waited and we landed and I just you know said I'd say, hey brother, I just want to tell you thank you for your service what you've done for a country and You know, he just said that he's had like 13 or 14 friends that have killed themselves and like he

You know he buys his own insurance because the VA He can't he can't get any help at the VA so he pays for his own regular health insurance and I'm just like I mean we're Yeah, it's just, I don't know. I mean, and I told Doug that too, and it's, where do you start? You know, because, and I told, I think, I think Doug was on with Sean Ryan, and they're talking about like, Sean Ryan had this guy or, I mean, this woman that they would call that I could get things done at the VA, I think, or something. But they had to go through her to like, and I'm like, so one person, there's one person that's actually going to get shit done. You have to call this one woman to make something happen.

It's like, what? How is that? Yeah. I mean, yeah, and I think another thing that they're running into is when you go in and you try and make sweeping changes because things are bad, you're going to cause collateral damage. Yeah. Like you're going to, like, if I was to, if you had freaking mold in your house, I would come in and I would like wreck part of your house that didn't need to get or if you needed surgery on your knee. I had to cut your skin and pull back, you know, some of your muscle and I, like, hit some of that muscle.

And like, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to get some collateral damage. Yeah. And if you, if you want to make change, you got to accept the fact that there's going to be collateral damage. And if the other side, when there's a bit of collateral damage goes, you cut my husband's leg, you know, well, it's trying to fix his knee. I don't care. You're, you're, you're, you made him bleed.

Yeah, you mutilated him. It's like, well, okay, you can see where we're going to go with this. We're not going to get very far. It's just, it's tough. And I mean, Trump is a bull in a China shop. Yeah. And you kind of realize why he's a bull in a China shop because he's trying to make changes.

And when it's not happening, shit gets knocked over. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the only thing that I learned is just being back there just for that. And I don't know shit about anything. But, man, it seemed like almost unwelcome. How long were you there for?

Like a couple days? Yeah, a couple days. I just went to the Maha thing where, you know, Trump and kind of had this committee to speak. And then the next day I went to Tulsi's. She was out there. Her office is one of them. It's just not in D.C.

But, yeah, so just spent. And then I was going around with Tim. Tim knows D.C. like, you know, back of his hand. And, you know, met Pete. Pete and Doug Collins signed this. thing memorandum of understanding working together the VA and the secretary defense type thing which is good and it's had i guess had never been done before so even just stuff like that which is freaking crazy to think about right nuts like oh we have the the defense department is not working with the

VA yeah are you freaking crazy yeah so they i mean yeah it's nuts that it hasn't happened but they're trying so i do think they are trying and i believe that they have the best the country's best interest in mind, but it's just like, how do you win this thing? It's weird, too, even in the military, you know, people think like, oh, well, everyone in the military is on board with whatever the chain of command says, but they're not. And there's, there's bureaucrats in the military. The military also has its own, uh, unelected bureaucrats. So like at the at the Pentagon There's people that have been at the Pentagon

For 40 years And and they like you know You're an officer you're an admiral or a general And you show up but you're coming into work and now you're gonna be in charge of the office that I'm in But I've been here for 28 years Yeah And you're gonna be here for 18 months Bro I'm gonna before you even it's gonna take you six months to figure out what the fuck is going on

Yeah And in that time by the way I said everything because I kind of got a read on your personality I was like, oh, this guy likes this type of weapon system, but we don't want that. So here's what I'm doing. A sack these reports. And like, you show up and you're gone and it didn't even matter to me. And I'm still pressing forward with my agenda.

Right. And so it's not just the federal government, but the DOD. So Hegsteth has got to deal with that inside the, what they call the Pentagon the building. Yeah. That's what he's got to deal with in the building. All these. And some of them, I'm sure, are on board.

Because you got, of course, you got war fighters in the Pentagon. Of course, you got a percentage of them. But you also have a percentage of negativity. And what is easier in the world to build or to break? Yeah. Bro, I can, I can, yeah, breaking shit is so easy. To sabotage shit is so easy. Yeah.

You know, you can, a child can demo a house. Yeah. And, you know, it takes a craftsman to build one. Right. With education and knowledge and. time and a 15-year-old boy, no, three 15-year-old boys can destroy a house like two hours, totally destroyed. Yeah.

But it takes, you know, eight months to build a house. And so when you're an unelected bureaucrat and you don't like what's happening, fucking throw a grenade in the room. Yeah. You know, throw a wrench in the system and it just gets, just gets derailed. And so I think there's a lot of that happening. And I don't think it's happening for any good reason. I think that you know, you could have, there could be some government official that comes

and that's trying to do something nefarious and you're like, dude, I got to do what I can to stop this. Okay. That could be, but I don't think that's what's going on. I don't see Pete Hegseth with some anti-American plan where he's trying to hurt the troops. Like, I don't, obviously I don't see that. Yeah. So what are they against? What are they trying to stop?

it's very bizarre to look at from the outside. And now that you've seen it from the inside, it sounds like it's even more bizarre. It's just, it's frustrating. It's like you want to believe that we're better than that. You know, you want to believe that it's,

we always say we're the greatest country in the world. And then I just want that confirmed. And I go back there and I'm just like, God, disconfirmed. And part of it, there's, there is a reason for like,

the, things should be hard. to move, right? You don't want a government that can be flipped on its head every four years and now we're doing something radically different.

That's why we have checks and balances. That's where we have the different parts of the government. That's why we do have those bureaucrats that are in there. Some of them,

it's like, oh yeah, you need some level of continuity in the system. But it's now to the point where the bureaucrats have more control than the people that are elected and appointed

into those positions by our elected officials. So who, why are they there? Yeah. Like, what is happening? So the biggest thing that I liked that I saw was Tulsi, Doug, Pete, veterans or still serving, you know, reserves. So to me, that feels like a win. Because I feel like that gives, that's just an advantage.

You get people who've served our country. It's just got to be better than somebody who just went to school and, you know, whatever. Just wanted to be a politician. I was at a soccer game the other day. And for the national anthem, they, instead of having a person go out there and sing it, they put the words up on the screen,

like the big teletron screen, and everyone sang it together. And it sounded good. Yeah. Because even though there's some people that are a little off, they don't know how to sing too well, but the majority of people, they figure out how to hit the note

and it all sounded good. I was like, it's kind of surprised. Yeah. And right now, it's interesting. The reason I bring that up is because right now, like, oh, recruiting is up right now for the military. Right. So regardless of everyone that's, oh, this is terrible. It's like, oh, but the general feedback from the nation and from the people that are actually willing to step up and serve is, oh, we're, we'll join up now.

We buy in. Yeah. We buy in. You're hitting the right notes. Yeah. And we like it. Right. that's a litmus test that that should be the most important litmus test to me is like that's more

of the mood of the country right there our volunteer army that says it all because that's people who weigh in on people who say hey I might join the military you got all these people weighing in why you shouldn't or why it's bad or whatever so apparently that's not happening as much because So that should be like that that's the health of the country. It is certainly a very good indicator. Yeah. When people want to join and serve the military as opposed to having the worst recruiting for the last like three years prior has been terrible recruiting like the numbers. And I I know some of the numbers.

I know some of the numbers in in special operations. And you know, you always think like, oh, every teenage boy wants to go in special operations. Well, it's been down. Mm-hmm. it's been down. Like, you know, it used to be thousands of people are trying to get into special operations and there's, oh, you're only going to get this many selected.

Well, now there's this many getting selected, but there's not as many left over as there used to be. Yeah. Because people didn't want to join. Yeah. I remember Eddie Gallagher said that Obama had this thing where he wanted, I think it was like 500 more seals or something like that.

And it's like that I remember Eddie was saying, you can't just make more seals. Like you have the standard and however many you get, you get. You can't just say you want 500 more because if they can't do it, they can't do it. If you lower the standard to get your 500 more, then you're not getting seals.

That is, yeah, that's a huge fear in any special operations, but definitely in the seal teams is that they lower the standards for any reason. Yeah. Because the standards are there for a reason. Right.

They are there for a reason. And they should never lower those standards. They should never lower those standards. They're there for a reason and they're proven. Like, you know what? I can tell you this. I went through single training. And when you are with a guy that went through single training, there is like a baseline of they are going to be with you when you need them.

Yeah. And that's it. And that training is hard and it's there for a reason. And, uh, but it seems like, you know, what Heggseth is doing, like they're raising the bar on the, some of these standards. Yeah. So hopefully we get to see that because war fighting sucks. Yeah.

You know, it, it's hard and it's physically hard. Very physically hard. Now, one thing that I always wish that Trump did or Biden did, I wish that when they made Space Force, I wish they would have made like Cyber Force, like recruiting people that are computer nerds to nerd out and get cyber warfare ready. And now what I hope that Space Force becomes is drone force. because what's happening in Ukraine right now with the drones and what China is preparing for drones. Like drone warfare is going to be a huge part that we're going to need to contend with

and we're going to need to be proactive on. And one thing that sucks about our military and our government is here's a freaking word that you have to learn when you're an officer in the military is procurement, which means like getting weapons systems. Buying it. And it is such a long cycle in America to buy a weapon system. It takes years in some cases,

like to get a new rifle and it's got to go through all these tests and they got to put it out for bid. And then once they bid, they build it and it doesn't work the way we wanted it to. So we put it out for bid. It takes like decades, decades to get a new weapon systems. Well, if we take decades to get drones, and by the time we get the drones, because it took decades, they aren't worth the shit

because the technology is so much better now. We got to get decentralized, decentralized procurement where people are able to just go out and make things and build things and buy them off the shelf and modify them and give the money to guys so they can make that happen. Otherwise, it's going to be, we're going to fall behind. Yeah.

And we can't afford, obviously can't afford to have our military fall behind at times in what's happening. I know. It's a disaster. That's what scary. Yeah. that's not undeniable that is that is undeniable truth is that that would be freaking scary

um bow hunting is a discipline that will humble you you have to be prepared to hike up any mountain in any weather and any storm you hunt animals that are used to being hunted every single day so they're dialed in getting into bow range in the red zone is difficult you have to be patient you have to be quiet you have to battle being alone you basically have a sharp stick and you have have one chance to make a perfect shot. And then you see these majestic, mythical creatures, and you have to be calm and steady. Don't start bow hunting unless you can deal with failure. It will humble you no matter how good you think you are. That is why you need to practice and prepare for it. There are many things you need to do, but there is also a trait you have to embrace in order to be successful,

not just as a bow hunter, but in life. And that trait is discipline. Discipline equals something. Yeah, so I hear the discipline thing, yeah. The discipline is a key component of success in anything. Natalie Eva Marie. She's a stud. She is. W.W.E.

Supposed to do her podcast this week. Damn it. Sorry, Eva. I know. God. She's like a soccer player, total athlete. played in college. Smoke show.

Yep. And she, but after that was over, she started drinking, like, alcoholic type scenario, drunk driving accident, goes into AA, goes into rehab. You pick up the story here.

Natalie called back her sponsor with her tail between her legs and asked to be taken back and her sponsor did. That's when her life got amazing. Natalie told me she signed a contract with a WWE. and began training for a sport she'd never done.

She also started in the long-running TV reality show, total divas. It was all by the discipline of working a 12-step program and keeping her priorities in the right place. For her, it comes down to living day-by-day, making meetings, working out, and eating as clean as you can. Once you actually make that choice and get sober and do the deal, you've got to put the work in, Natalie explained. It's actionable steps on a daily basis.

you can have a life beyond your wildest dreams sitting here with Cameron Haynes a life beyond my wildest dreams that's what it's all about and it's a testament to doing the program in March of this year I'll have God willing 10 years of sobriety it's been a journey and you got a couple stories in here your younger brother this is this this like section is basically about like addiction substance substance yeah yeah I did have somebody a guy used to work with and he struggled with yeah substance abuse but he said that this book was it's hard getting a book that really speaks to people that struggle with that and he said this book does a better job than any book he's ever read that's all so I don't know if it was their stories or lessons

they've learned or what I or my personal experience but whatever it is it feels like we spoke to those people so was there anything in particular that he laid out or not really he just said it landed he just said it landed he just said yeah it was yeah it was the best he's read on the subject basically and your brother taylor he's your half brother is that right yeah and he was just freaking kind of going down the downward spiral yeah pills and uh drinking he back you know had back surgery stuff like that so you know when you can't move and get depressed get overweight it's like that whole thing yeah that's that that little path of surgery and then the opioid prescription.

Yeah, that, that, that grabbed a lot of military guys where that, yeah, they just get addicted to the painkillers and it's a downward spiral. Yeah. But Taylor got into, uh, got into ultra. Yeah, he's a freaking beast. Yeah, he just got, he did a, right before I did Cocodona, he did the Arizona monster 300. He got second 300 miles. Damn, dude.

Yeah, he's a freak. Um, and then you got another person was, uh, was a freaking jelly roll. Yeah, I love jelly roll. What a story. Crazy, dude. The dude was in prison. Yeah, for like year. I mean, I don't know how many birthdays he was in prison.

And, uh, yeah, he got some girl pregnant. So he said the warden came or not, or security guard or like, like, whatever, whoever works our correction officer came up and said, hey, you got a kid. and he's like, what's his name? I don't, he's like, I don't know. And he's just like, something like that. And he's just like, I got to, I got to make a change. And now fucking Grammy nominated just out there just killing it lost 200 pounds now.

He was 500. 497. Is he going to have to change his name to like E. Clair or something like that? I don't know. Or like, you know, beef jerky. Wheat bagel. but biggest heart dude i mean we we went to uh the oregon state penitentiary and they hadn't had live music there i think they had stevie rae vaughan back in the day and what i heard is an inmate

got killed at the concert damn and uh so had been like 20 years or something like that and i set up i did a visit i was just like you know i knew jelly had been in jail and all that and i'm like hey do you think what if I could get jelly roll here do you think we could ever make that happen and anyway turned out um september of this year he played modus center up in portland and the next day we went to osp i think that's where that picture was where we were walking but yeah just it was crazy he's he's so good at speaking to the broken yeah because he was so broken and so they those guys they don't want to hear somebody who hasn't been through that shit. Because what the fuck do you know?

But he has so he can he can really you know and I I got a lot of Nate I got some negative feedback because some of those guys you know I mean I got an email one of the guys in the pictures of that prison had raped I think it was the younger brother this guy who emailed me and I'm just like God I mean I you know there are some people maybe don't deserve grace, but it feels like they're still human. We still have to, they're still humans. They're still, I don't know.

So it's like, it's hard knowing. It feels like you're doing the right thing, but then like to have victims, I do understand that part too. Yeah, no, that makes sense. And yeah, it's weird because I'm a very forgiving person. Like I said, because to me, everyone's just a scorpion, and they're going to do what scorpion is.

Yeah. A person's going to do what they do. But then when you do something where there's like a victim who is going to be changed forever by your, by a person's actions. And yeah, there's so difficult to forgive. And that's why they have prison. Yeah. That's where you're going to prison.

I just, I just, I just know that for that moment when jelly roll was there talking and playing for them, they probably forgot they were there. for a little while. And it's just like, how often, how often does that happen? They're reminded of that shit all day, every day for some of them their whole life.

You're locked up, you are an animal. So a little reprieve on that day, it felt good, but then I would also hear the other side, and it's just like, fuck, so. This dude can ride out. Yeah.

World's best marathon or over 50. This is another dude. He's like, yeah. Stockbroker on. pills. Just doing good stuff in the world and then loses the battle to the to the chemicals, man. Yeah.

Yeah. And he said he was just like really good. He'd go to these mom and pop like when you could kind of forge prescriptions and just could get as many pills as he wanted just like forging prescriptions. And he was like, you know, making bank. But when he got sober, I remember, I don't know if I put, I can't remember if I put it in there, but I remember talking to him about it. He was worried that his wife wouldn't even know he was because she had never seen him

sober. For years, he had been high, taking a pill the whole time. And so he's just like, she doesn't even fucking know me. Crazy. You say this. I ask Chris Williamson, another person who I put in this category, are they influenced by people who are not disciplined. Well, think about it this way, Chris answered.

Do you think that the most successful people in the world became successful and then got disciplined? Or do you think that they became disciplined and then got successful? And you say, I obviously agreed with the latter. And then you say this, this chapter isn't about me standing on a soapbox or preaching from a pulpit. Look, I've been there. I understand what it's like to self-sabotage.

As I've said, for me, alcohol was not helping in any of the things I cared about. I wanted to be more fit. I wanted to be more disciplined. I wanted to be the best bow hunter and the best athlete I could be, yet alcohol was always a step backwards on all those things. I wouldn't be who I am if I kept drinking.

That's how powerful it is. That's how powerful a drug it is. Yet it's society, societally acceptable drug. Most people don't truly understand the poison that it is. I had a buddy that was like, he did everything.

Drinking, crack, heroin, LSD. and he ended up going to prison. And when he got out of prison, I was talking to him. And he's like, yeah, I got arrested three times, all on alcohol. He goes, I never got arrested on crack. I never got arrested on coke. I never got arrested on heroin.

He goes, and I can't do, those things are totally illegal, but I can go down to the 7-Eleven and buy booze, and it makes me fucking crazy. Of all those things, it's alcohol that makes him crazy. I I when we started this podcast it was like 10 years ago yeah and I'd be like talking about drinking like yeah you know you don't want to drink too much and it's like you know but there's bonding that happens and and now I'm just like no there's nothing good I have nothing good to say about alcohol anymore don't do it that's yeah that's where I've arrived yeah sounds like you're there too yeah and did you know Joe's not drinking anymore yeah I heard it's pretty sick yeah I mean it's just if if I guess if people there's some people were fine with it that's you know whatever That's not me. And that's not, you know, your friend or people we've talked about there. But yeah, it's it's so weird how accessible it is and how, you know, dangerous it is, really.

Just changes people. People are drinking less, too. Like, drinking is becoming less popular. I'm glad I don't have a freaking alcohol company because if I did, I'd be like, I'd be looking to get out of it. Sorry, Kip. Yeah, sorry, Kip. other than other than big truck

right yeah yeah alcohol is tough man like it's it's it's a fading thing um like I I see even in the seal teams

which had a culture of alcohol yeah like we drank all the time and it's definitely not what it was and there's a lot more seals that don't even drink anymore yeah and so I think we're heading in the right in the right direction

there. Stop drinking if you're drinking. It doesn't do you any good. Michael Waddell. Yeah. From the backwoods of Bugger Bottom, Georgia. Yeah.

That's for real, huh? Boker Bottom? Or is he just pulling your leg? He's always said he's from Booger Bottom. I don't know if that's like a joke reference, but I like it. He's just a good old boy.

Normally I do, like if there's something I don't know, I research it. Yeah. I missed this. I was like, as soon as I was like, wait, could that not be real?

Huh. Yeah. If it gobbles, quacks, bugles, grunts, chances are I've chased it more at a time or two.

So you've got a freaking, yeah, another hunting thing. He became, 2008, Waddell became the co-host on one of the outdoor channel's highest rated

shows, bone collector. He also started to company with the same name that was dedicated to standing up for the hunting culture. Since then,

he's become one of the most recognized and beloved ambassadors for the hunting industry. And what I like about what he says is, if you can't bet on yourself, who the hell are you going to bet on? I love that quote from Waddell. Every single outlier I've met has bet on himself time and time again in his life. It comes back to what I said at the start of this chapter, just because you believe you will find success doesn't mean you deserve it.

And then speaking to Kip, you talk about Kip in here. And it's funny, Kip, I just reposted something on Instagram because Kip, like put something out. Like, hey, I tried this thing and it did work. Methoded mindset. Yeah, yeah. He's like, I misjudged the people and it didn't work. And it was like, I reposted. I was like, take the shot because he's holding an arrow.

He's like, hey, you got to take the shot. Yeah. And it's true. Like, you got to take the shot. And he took the shot. He had an idea. He went with it and like, oh, it didn't work. And now he's going to move on to the next thing.

And he's obviously, you know, he's one of the founders of Under Armour. And he's like, if you get that shot in your life, you can brag about that forever. You don't have to take another shot. But he does. He does. You know, that's what's badass about Kip is he's, he's really, he wants to do something. He goes out and he freaking makes it happen.

He goes all in. Yeah. Like Alaska. Like what he's gotten on going on at Bush Wack. Have you been up there yet? Yeah. I killed a grizzly last year. Oh, that was there.

But that was that when he had already bought it? Was that just when he bought it? Just when he bought it. Yeah. I went up last. August. Yeah. So we made a film.

When you are. Yeah, that's the film. Redemption. Redemption. Yeah. I commented on that post too. And I said, winners,

what did I say? Winners win even when they lose. Because it's like if you, he's learning, you know, he's, you know, he's learning from it.

So he said he misjudged and that'll impact his next decision. And that's fine. That's how it works. You don't, not every, not everything is, a home run.

When you start writing about Kipp in here, it sounds like there was, I didn't know, and I don't know if you explain it or if I'm misreading it, but like you, did you guys have friction? Yeah. For real?

Yeah. It sounds like two herd bowls kind of. Is that what you had? Well, I just, you know, hunting just in general, there's way less hunters out west than there is in the south or back east. Like we're Bougar bottom Georgia.

So many fucking hunters. We'd have less people out west, less people hunt. Everybody kind of grows up that hunting culture out there. So consequently, that hunting market is way bigger out there. So I thought I was just badass. I was training. I was like, you know, killing these animals in the mounds and real, you know, soul testing hunts in the wilderness, right?

It's like. And so in my head, I'm like, fuck these guys. They sit in a tree stand and they're getting all these opportunities. Like Michael was the biggest on TV. And so I was like, he was competition to me. And I was pissed at him. I was pissed at everybody because I'm like, I'm fucking better than everyone. But I could.

So I would tell Under Armour, I want this. I want that. And they're just like, he's just like, who is this fucking guy? Because he didn't know me. And he's running a business, right? And, you know, if you look at the market share of what I do, it doesn't make sense to promote me unless that was kind of on the cusp of Western hunting got really cool then then it was just like oh this is something we could train for we can be badass bow hunters that's a thing I didn't know that was a thing so that kind of evolved from that but the growing pains to get there yeah I mean I wasn't getting what I thought I deserved and so again I was like having that chip I always thought that he

I thought that he was the guy that brought you on. I thought that he found you and he brought you on. So we didn't tell this part of the backstory, but Kip at Under Armour, he started like the outdoor, the hunt division. Yep. And so how did he end up like finding you?

No, I went to Shot Show. And they had... Oh, this is when you pointed out that they're freaking... Yeah, is Randy White. Randy White, he played for the Cowboys, big stuff. You know, fucking veins everywhere. He had a Super Bowl ring on.

He's holding his bow. And the bow didn't have a rest on it. And I think it had even like the price tag still hanging on it or some fuck. And I was just like, giant picture of him. And I'm like, you know, that would be a lot more realistic if that bow was actually set up to shoot. So they did a shoot with me and Waddell. Wadell was kind of deciding on whether he wanted to sign with Under Armour. And like, like, I fucked that up too because he called me and he's just like,

he goes, we need to be on the same page, like these Bass Tournament guys, they all know what the contracts are. They kind of work together for the market, this or that. And he goes, so, you know, whatever you're going to ask for Under Armour, we should be on the same page with it. And I was like, okay, yeah, sounds good. And I'm like, I'm not fucking telling him anything. I'm getting my own. And because he was a bigger name than me, right? So I was just like everybody, I hated everybody, everybody's competition.

But Kip finally was just like, I think we went on a hunt, me, him and Roy. We went to, well, we did a hunt giveaway in Quebec for Caribou. And, you know, we went up there and he made a poor shot on the caribou. And I was like, make kind of, I said, what is this fucking bow you're shooting? It's like, are those suction cup arrows? Because it like hit this bowl in the back of the knee and bounced off the arrow. God. And I'm just like, what is this?

So he left that hunt, got an 80-pound Hoyt, heavy arrows, killed a giant bull right after that in Colorado, giant elk. But so I kind of, I think earned a little respect on that. Then we did a hunt with Roy in 2009 in the wilderness of Wyoming for elk. And so then he's just like, okay, this guy, whatever. I mean, just kind of started to know me and then we became friends. And yeah, just kind of developed from that. his first Western hunting experience was with you? No, I think he'd done a couple others.

Yeah. Right on. Yeah. And then you guys eventually became bros. Yeah, yeah. He's still always like, you know, he's like, I remember one time. So he's telling me, you know, you can't, you can't always just perform and make money. He goes, you got to have some way to make money without, you know, without breaking your back

or breaking your body or whatever. He goes, I'm going to design six t-shirts for you. I'll have my guys do it here at Under Armour and then you can sell them. And so he did that. And then he's like one other than like little ways down the road. He's like,

you need quit worry about fucking T-shirts and just start, I'm like, motherfucker, you told me to come, this was your idea. And now you're like scolding me for doing this. So there's always like,

he always wants this like, you do this, you do this. And it's like, it might contradict what he told you before. But he's passionate about whatever he's saying. Yeah. So it's like, I don't, I don't give a fuck of people are wrong, but or varied, but just believe whatever you're saying.

And he always believes what he's saying. Always. So I'm like, fuck it. Gives for you great, dude. Yeah. That's great. Aaron Rogers. We all know who Aaron Rogers is.

As I look back at my 20, last 22 years of. my life playing the greatest moments of growth and learning experiences were associated with an ego death in some way or another. Aaron reflected. That's kind of an interesting term and it's thrown around from time to time. It just means that the idea of who you think you are gets destroyed. Yeah. Ego death. If there's anyone, I don't think there's anyone more qualified in the world to talk about armchair quarterback than freaking, than Aaron Rogers. Literally the guy that gets armchair quarterbacked. Yeah. Yeah. He had a rough one too because Farv was a quarterback when he went to Green Bay. The fans loved Farv and he was like supposed to take his job. So that was he went through

a lot of shit because NFL is like everybody's got an opinion. It's like, have you even played football? I mean, and you're telling you're you're, you think you know how he should have done something. You know, people are just crazy. Same with fighting. Oh, same with everything. Everything. Everybody's an expert on everything so yeah he's went through a lot need he gets criticized so much because he is pretty outspoken and then he kind of seems kind of aloof i think some people think he you know because he's just so relaxed but he's such a good quarterback yeah yeah he's amazing uh speaking to athletes michael chandler again these are all guys that you had on your podcast and you do all the stuff with them and so you get you get it's like I think you mentioned this too in the book it's like a little bit of truth serum

you make somebody carry a rock up a hill and you get to see what they're all about yeah yeah it's you can fake a lot when you're not suffering when you're suffering yeah the truth comes out so yeah yeah channel I I just I just love you know anytime you train with somebody and you kind of suffer it's like just makes that more of a bond then you can really get some good you know have good conversations. Yeah, he was, he says I was a walk-on at the University of Missouri, meaning I didn't have a scholarship, but I could essentially try out for a spot on the wrestling team. I was the hardest worker in the room, coach's favorite wrestler, team captain. I did every single thing right. God bless me with some amazing abilities. I could have been a

multiple time, All-American, maybe even national champion, who knows, but I didn't give myself permission to win. And fast forward a little bit. I'm still battling that guy Chandler admitted, and that's okay to continue to battle him and never slay him. And you say, I noted that Chandler's done a good job embracing that mentality, especially when he's wearing a sweatshirt that says walk on. It's almost as if he's challenging that mindset every day. Yeah, I just, the fight game,

I mean, I still remember his fight with Olivera, and he had him fucking hurt. Oliverer was like trying to get his head away. Chandler's like needed to land one more shot probably, one, one punch in the land and he's champion. Then he comes out in the second round and gets knocked out. Fucking had Olivera right there. That would be so hard to deal with as a fighter.

You train your whole life. He went through all that experience of the walk on not giving himself permission, having Olivera on the cusp of KO and being UFC champion and still has never been back. never got that still hasn't won that uh you know chale sonnan is yeah chel sonnan was beating dominating Anderson Anderson for four minutes and something like four men or for what 24 minutes or 23 minutes right deep into the fourth round yeah and i was watching yeah deep into the fifth round yeah it's almost over like total just total domination I was watching the fight with Dean.

Oh, God. And Dean, traitor, is rooting for Anderson Silver, which I didn't realize until, like, towards the end. No.

And Dean is like, oh, he's setting up a triangle. And I'm like, he's not going to fall for a triangle. And sure enough, got triangled. That was horrific to watch.

Oh. Well, and he talks about he, like, promised his dad or, like, he's going to win one for his,

his dad. Yep. Oh my God. Yeah. And then when he fought, I was at the fight when he fought Anderson again in Vegas. And he got like, got knocked out.

Yeah. It was just, but yeah, it's amazing how you can be so close. You can be moments from winning. Like Chandler was seconds, you know, just had to land like you said,

one more punch. And it's, and you get to be the world champion forever. Forever. you're the world champion forever and then it doesn't happen oh my i mean i it's a rough freaking game yeah it's you know it's like i was i had in not the same but i was working so hard to get a bear kill and i had that i hadn't killed one yet so that first giant came in and i thought i screwed up because i drew drew back he was like maybe 16 yards away a little tiny little branch off the

this tree, I had this ground blind. I come to full draw, my elbow hit this little branch and I went, all it was that bear just getting ready to shoot and he's just like, heard that, gone. And I'm just like, oh my God, I've been here nine days, hours in the rain, my elbow, and thank God. And I'm just like, I'm sitting there and I'm like, About 10 minutes later, the sow was still at the bait. 10 minutes later, here he comes back.

And I'm just like, okay, he's not getting fucking out here without an arrow. So then he turned to leave again. And I was like, like stopped him. Wack. Smoked him. But that little, a little, that could have been everything. Yeah. It reminds me of one more punch.

It's just like the, it's a little, you could do 99.9% of it right. You have to do it all right. And that's. those are the things in life like if there's things in life that you can give a half-ass effort and it still works out those don't fucking matter you can convince yourself those matter they don't matter it's where you have to do everything right for to get for you to get for you to get what you want that's when it matters and that's what you know that's hard to achieve it's like hard to get those type of things but that's what makes them so special yeah they're going to be hard

if they're worth doing. Katie Knight, ultramarathon, a world toughest mutter champion, beast in the gym. You say, I asked her if she trains daily. Every day,

twice a day, six days a week. Sunday's completely off rest day. I walked the dog. This is why I had to pull out this quote. I was born, bread, and corn fed in Iowa

with that hardworking mentality. Those people there, that's what they do all day. I grew up like that. grew up in sports. There's no excuse. is you work hard and you get it done. Yeah, she's a beast.

She's a stud. She played hockey. She's like, did all this shit, but just a freak. And I took her on her first deer hunt this year. And she killed, right? Did she have a good time? Is she addicted? I think so.

You know, killing an animal is, you know, right when it dies. It's like, it's a, there's a lot of emotion. Yeah. But, you know, I think she felt good. Once we got the meat off and I sent the meat, you know, to after she went home. And so that always feels like a reward when you're eating, what you killed. But that moment for new hunters always. Was it a little bit of a little bit of a stress for her?

Or just like mixed emotions. She made a perfect shot. I mean, I had the gun set up on sticks and she made a, she's a good shot because she's done like the SIG, whatever, those hunter games and all that shit. So she can shoot. But it just dropped and then it's like kind of twitching a little bit and she's like you know asked if he's suffering I said no he's he's gone. So it's just that that moment but she did great. She's a stud. Speaking of studs UFC legend cowboy Saroni Donald Cowboy Soroni Pretty wild because you know you you point out in here he kind of grew up like his

wealthy family but even the wealthy family they had like a hard work ethic and And they were working their asses off as doctors in, you know, just slaving away. It's hard work. Cowboys' grandmother always told him that there were worse things in life than what might be happening to him on a bad day. And then he says, whenever we start a project, we do it and work hard. And my friends can't ever keep up with me. They actually hang out with me in shifts because they can't maintain the pace that I play at and have fun at. It's just my work ethic.

I like it. The dude takes having fun as a freaking sport. That reminds me of, you know, how Khabib would have, like, however they do with, like, the five new guys come in every round type thing and just go through all of them. That's just like, I love that stuff. You've got to do that when you're doing a, you're building a fence and you've got to get people to work with you in shifts. You've got 20-minute rounds of working. I know. Cowboys such a freaking good dude.

Yeah, he is. What's he doing now? Is he like acting or something like that? Yeah, he was in a, was he gonna come back and try to fight again? I thought I saw. Oh, isn't he fighting for like a BMF belt? Oh, is he?

I don't know. Again? I thought he wanted to get like 50 UFC fights. Oh, shit. I think he was like two away or something. I don't know what it was. Let's go cowboy. Yeah, I know.

It's just, it's a tough, tough job for an aging fighter. And there's high consequences. Oh, God. Getting knocked out at, you know, that's not good for you. And these kids coming up are fucking machines. Yeah, it's a new, it's, it's, it's now you're getting people that have just trained for MMA, you know. They, they wrestled for MMA, they boxed for MMA, they did Maitai for MMA, and they were homeschooled, and they did MMA all day. Like, there's a generation coming for sure.

Yeah. It's, it's, things are changing. There's some. I can't remember the kid's name. He's got like kind of big black curly hair, young. I don't think I've ever seen him get hit. Damn. And he just keeps winning.

I can't remember who it is, but he's young. And I'm just like, holy shit. Yeah. This kid is, I don't know. Well, if you remember, like, what a basketball player looked like, you know, like. Bob Coozy. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, it's just a different game now. I know. I know. It's like they barely, you know, dribbled with their left hand. Back in those days. God. Fast forward. When I was an editor for Eastman's bow hunting journal, I quoted Joe Rogan in an article I wrote long before I met him, titled Finding Your Way, Train Hard, Hunt Easy.

Here are the opening two paragraphs. During a UFC pay-per-view some years ago, commentator Joe Rogan used a reference that caught my attention. In quoting Musashi, a famous Japanese samurai who wrote the book of Five Rings, a classic book of strategy in life, he said, once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things. I was struck by this quote, which in plain English means, once you find the path to success in whatever it may be, success comes easier in all things. And that is...

I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. I loved, he said that line during, you know, as he's calling the show. And I was like, man, that makes sense. Because you see people who, they just keep winning. at whatever the fuck they do. And you're just like,

like I see these track athletes and they're like, some of these women, they look like they could be like supermodels and their Olympic athletes. I'm like, how the fuck does this work? It's like, you're just good at everything. And then like Gabby Thomas went to Harvard on top of it.

And it's just like, so these people, they just, I don't know, it says, they just figure it out, here's how I get to be the best at everything. And that's what Rogan says, and you talk about in the book, like Rogan started doing martial arts,

started doing taekwondo and got good at it, but then he applied that technique of skill building to everything else that he's done. And he keeps kicking ass and everything. Yeah, because he quit fighting or competing like when he's 19, right? Yeah, yeah. 19 or 20, something like that.

So he took those lessons from then and have applied it to everything, that work ethic or that obsession. And so yeah, it's like he was done at 19, but now he's 57 and still doing it. Still winning. Still winning. And he worked,

but the thing is he works his ass off. For sure. That fucker, I mean, I look at his, it's like how many podcasts you do this week? You're already, you're number one. Why are you doing five podcasts every week? And it's just like in depth into the conversation and just fucking, you can't,

I mean, that's just work. That's hard. And he just, and then the comedy, you know, goes down to his comedy story. He's like there. Then shooting his bow for hours. Then living, just like breathing like crazy. And it's like everything is just fucking at this level. And people are like saying, you know, somehow questioning his success.

It's like, bitch, he's been working his ass off his whole fucking life every day. Rich as hell and still getting it done. Yeah. Doesn't need to work at all. No. I love that. Yeah. Yep.

I was, I think the last time we were all in hunt camp together and you guys were out and I joined you guys. We were shooting like, yeah, like 90, something, 94 yards, actually. But I walked up and I was like, fuck, all right. I had to do that thing where I was like, fuck, well, I'm going to smoke this is what I did. Yeah, that was fine. But yeah, you can't like, like you said, Joe Rogan doesn't have to freaking do anything.

No. But you can't not train and walk up to a 94-yard target and freaking plug it. No. The shit ain't happening. You have to freaking work at it. Oh. And also you're like, touch his shoulder and it feels like this table. It's just like he's just everything is that I don't know how he does it.

Everything he does is at the highest level he can. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And even listening to like when I go to live UFC, I'm always bummed because I can't hear his commentary. Yeah. Because it's like, so good.

It's going to be great. I know. And he does the entire fight card with all these under card fighters and you're like, how does he know about this dude? And yeah, you have notes, but he watches their fights. Yeah. I never, I never see. He doesn't have like, Anik has a shitload of notes.

All I ever see Joe practice is how to say the name. That's, yeah. He's, he's got his life. like the little matchup thing. And he's just like on the way over like going over the names. I've never seen any notes. He just loves fucking MMA. So he just follows.

He watches all the shit. Then he'll go deep on like you listen to a podcast. He's talking about like boxing in 1953 and you're like, that's what we did. Yeah. We were like, hey, you got to watch this video of Rocky Marciano training.

Oh yeah. So we watch this whole thing on him training, which is awesome. But I'm like, when are you watching this stuff? he sends me bowing stuff all the time and it's like man I don't know how he does it hell yeah uh you got you got Evan hayfer in here and you're talking about the you know what his passion was a freaking cup of espresso and he literally remembered his first cup of espresso

before he made black rifle like yeah freaking crazy that's where truett set the world record that black rifle and Salt Lake. He's like, hey, you want a coffee? So we go over to this thing. He's doing all this shit, like this chemistry. And I'm just like, I don't give a fuck what this coffee tastes like. I'll do a curig. And he's spending like a half hour on this coffee.

Point is passion. Yeah. He cares. That's what it takes. Me, when I all drink a curig or a folders with flavor crystals, I'm not going to fucking start black rifle coffee. But, man. He's like so into it and look what happens.

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Just another guy you haven't here, Remi Warren. And it's interesting because you wrote a book called Backcountry Bow Hunting and Remi, you say, I read that book cover to cover 900 times. I would bring it out hunting.

I read that book constantly. So here's a guy that's like, you know, followed what you put out. He's a great hunter. Yeah. crazy how these things interact um Dakota Meyer you had him on um obviously he recently became an active duty Marine again God bless him I know dude yeah he texted me he's like I'm going back in the Marine Corps and I was like are you I'm like can you do that and he's like well I guess you were metal honor or civilian yeah and you're Dakota

Meyer. Yeah. And yeah, just what a freaking total stuff. And the crazy thing is like it's like, it's not like, I mean, he was a, he's like a volunteer firefighter and a fine. And then it became a firefighter. I mean, he's just always just going. Well, he won. So obviously, obviously the Medal of Honor, but he also won like the Texas Medal of Honor. Yeah. He saved somebody that was drowning. So it's like, how does, how is he always in this position to save people? Yeah. I'm always extra careful when I'm around Dakota. No bad shit's going to happen. I'm going to choke on some meat and how to get Heimlich for sure.

No, he's freaking just such an awesome, awesome human. Yeah, he is. He says, resiliency is nothing more than the ability to stay in suffering so that you can learn more of the lesson. Because you don't get better unless you're uncomfortable, right? You don't grow. You don't move the needle any internally, emotionally, physically or mentally,

suffering. I like that idea of staying in the suffering to learn more of the lesson. Yeah. I like that idea a lot from old Dakota right there. That's powerful because most people, they start to suffer this much. They're looking to get out. But when you can embrace it and be like, fucking finally here we are. And that's like the Courtney a pain cave thing that she's trying that was chisel out. That was nuts. I thought, you know, I thought she was saying, saying that she just embraced the pain, but she's saying no, she's expanding this cave. So if this was a cave, I'm like, so it's the same cave every time, every race?

She's like, yeah, she goes back in the same cave and she just makes it bigger. And she's not thinking about running. She's thinking about this chisel and hitting it with hammer and rocks falling down, piling up, not thinking about running. She's thinking about hitting that hammer. So she's thinking about this work. And it's not the pain in running. It's not a stride.

it's making this cave bigger. And I'm like, she goes, I was like, kept asking questions on that. She's like, I think I'm going to quit talking about this. The more I talk the crazier I sound. But I was like fascinated that it's like some mental trick to get her out of the pain she's feeling. So pretty cool.

Freed and beast. This is you talking. I wanted my kids to be prepared for everything. go through in life. I wanted them to understand that life's a competition. I want, I might not have taught them a lot of things, but I did show them what it means to be tough. I wanted them to know what they're capable of. The truth is, I know more, I know they're more talented than I ever was. They're better kids. I was hard on them, especially my sons, and I never cut them slack, but they knew I love them. Did I push my kids too hard? Yes.

I definitely did. Oh, I did too. Yeah. But, you know, you talk about hunting and hunting and running, obviously. That's what you had them do. You got, you got, you had Trude on the podcast. And this was interesting, man. True, it's like growing up, we'd go out every single year, not by choice, True, it said. What I always tell people is, when we were kids, we'd go hunting with you.

We didn't have a choice. And it would be the hardest thing we did all year. And I don't know if you, I don't know if you know this about yourself, but you can be pretty intense. And then for me, I just kind of didn't want to deal with it anymore. Honestly, it's pretty hard getting yelled that. I don't think I wanted to do it. The last hunt we did for a long time was Blacktail.

I think I was 13 back in 2010. And I didn't hunt again until I think 2018. I took like an eight-year break from hunting. And it wasn't even that I was busy. I just didn't want to do it. And then when I got reintroduced to it in 2018, I killed a Blacktail. That honestly felt really good to do. so I just kind of got that fire back a little.

And then from there, you know, we've been going just about every year since then. I did that with my kids like 100% in, in Jiu-Jitsu where I was just like, what would be probably considered child abuse by most people. And I just made them all mad, you know? They just like didn't like it. And I had to just go, I realized that my kids

were not just going to hate Jiu-Jitsu. They were going to hate me and they were going to hate life. I was creating like serial killers. So I had to just back away from it. And now you got true at like the king of pull-ups, 10,000 one pull-ups in 24 hours. Freaking sick. Yeah.

It's, yeah. And it's like even when he did that and I told him, I said, yeah, it's good. I'm not surprised because this is what you're supposed to do. This is like, this was the goal the whole fucking time. I always told them you guys aren't regular kids. So don't have regular goals. You're going to do, you can do amazing things.

And so, yeah, you got the world record. That was the plan. What the fuck? What was all this for? So I'm just like, good job, but not surprised. So when you say, was I, was I, too hard on them. Yes.

Do you kind of not really believe that too much, though, because your kids turned out good? You know what I mean? I can't remember if I said this before, but I really, you know, because I told them like, if you have a regular job, you're a failure, right? I said, if you're like a regular person,

And if you're average, you failed. And so Tanner had, he was worked at the jail, corrections officer, which is a, you know, good job. It's an important job. And that's when he quit to, he wanted to be a ranger. And he just said, I have more to offer this world than just being working at the jail. And then I was like, did I cause him to feel like that? And what if he gets deployed and gets killed? And then I'm like, that was me fucking them up.

kids saying it's a failure to be a regular person when and I had to say it's you know it's not a failure it's I was wrong because I was like what if this caught you know I mean I couldn't imagine so yeah there's there's things I regret there's things I said I regret um you know that like in games and You know, I just drives home. You know, if I didn't think they were hustling or didn't think I thought they had more to give than they, it was probably not healthy, the shit I was saying. So, yeah, I just wanted, yeah, I don't know. I just had so much expectation for them, but they're just kids. You know, kids don't want to fucking suffer, you know, and I would see Truitt running with his track team and he'd be like back in the mid pack. I'm like, you got, you should, you could make, I mean, he might have been able to make the Olympics, but he wasn't working. And so now his goal is like, you know, he's going to run in the 220s, which is getting close, you know, Olympic standard for the marathon or Olympic trial standard is 218.

So he loses some weight, does some, gets a little lighter. He's got that potential, I think, to get down there to qualify for the trials. And so I knew he had that because I would see him as a kid and I'd see what he's doing. And then I would see him at practice. And I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? You're back there fucking around. You have a gift. I hate running.

I'm like, that's your gift, dude. Your gift is endurance. I'm not. I said, if you step it up, you know, and it's like he made state as a freshman and his, I think his coach said, and he ran a good marathon. And his coach said, yeah, when you're a senior, you'll be winning the state meet. He never got any better. So that was really hard for me because when you see your kids and you know they have this

crazy potential and they're just not doing it, I'm not good with that's okay. It's okay. We'll be all right. I'm like, it's not okay. That was hard. And then, you know, what we were talking about earlier with like if you don't love it, you're not going to. Yeah.

And he didn't love it at that time. I love it like, I couldn't make him love it. And that's, I think that's the hardest thing is, you know, finding something that your kid loves. And then if they have a natural talent for it, that's great. But if, man, if you're making it, if you're pushing them to do it, it's hard. And then all that I feel bad about is I know that there's fathers that, you know, follow my family and they have kids. And they might try to push, you know, everybody wants our kids to be. beast, right? Especially boys.

And it's like, it's gonna, I hope it could go bad for a lot of families, a lot of kids. Yeah, I've told the story of my kids like a bunch of times to make sure that people understand like it's, and there's better ways to do it. And, you know, like one thing that they point out in that book, Outliers is like you want and this is what I tell people, the most important thing with your kids and whatever activity you want to do is you want it to be fun. And in order for it to be fun, well, winning is fun. And in order to win, you've got to practice. In order to practice, you've got to think it's fun. So it's like this little circle of, you know, with, with Jiu-Jitsu, a huge mistake I made was making my kids compete against people that were kids that were older than them, heavier than

them, and more experienced than them. So they go to a tournament and get destroyed. And in my mind, I'm a great dad because I'm making them tougher. Yeah. And in their minds, they're like, I suck at this. You know, I just got my ass kicked. Yeah. I suck.

I don't want to train. I don't want to practice. But, you know, in that book Outliers, when it's like, oh, the kid that's the oldest kid on the soccer team because he was born in January. Yeah. And now he's the biggest kid. He's the strongest kid. He's the smartest kid. So he gets to play a bunch.

He scores goals. He likes scoring goals. So he comes home and practices. And that's how they get freaking champions. Yeah. So if you can make things fun for your kids, that's the best. that I know of course of action to make them love it and now they'll do it more and when they do it more they'll win more when they win more they love it more and then they practice more and you get a positive cycle going on what you just said though you can't make them love whatever like I just had this conversation with my middle daughter who's a competitive jiu jihitsu beast right now but I made her hate jiu jiu jutsu you know when she was 10 years old and and then she was telling me me she's like do you remember when I was 13 and I hated jiu jih Tzu and you gave me a

ghi jih Tijuana for like my birthday and she's like what's wrong with you and I was like I was like I wanted you to love jiu jitsu yeah I just wanted you to love jiu jitsu you're trying to will it oh tried to freaking make it happen god yeah I mean and they they say like do you remember the time you did this and I'm just like no I don't remember it but fucking they do I say a lot of crazy shit. So that's just one more thing I said that I probably shouldn't have said to my kids. And it's just like, so they don't hate me. I guess we made it.

But I do worry about my kids were just for whatever, just like probably yours. It's just like built or prepared for it or could handle it. Some kids just won't. They can't. And then maybe their dad's. might not go about it and maybe the dads aren't even being the example is one thing

because it's like you can't just say so it's like your kids saw you doing the shit so it wasn't just you were just like these empty words you're making do what you wouldn't even do so if a dad wants their kids to have all this attention get all these these rewards but they're not doing it themselves that's gonna be tough

so anyway I worry about that you know Yeah, you really, you have your kids are going to be who they are. Like you can, you can guide it, but like you can't reshape it. If you try and reshape it, I think you're going to end up causing some kind of a malfunction. Yeah. You know. And part of it, the shaping is like they see, like you said, they see you. Like that's what, okay.

They see it's hard work. That's what's what we're doing. But yeah, you can't make people love things. No. No. Yeah. I don't know. Truit's coming around with running now.

So he's putting a lot of work into it. Is he going to try and make a run at the Olympics or anything? I think he might be a little, I don't want to say old. He's 28. We'll see. I mean, I think he's going to get into the 220. So he did 234 Eugene in jeans six days after Boston. And so what does he weigh?

He's like 170. But those, those elite marathon is like 140. Yeah. Yeah. So, because you mentioned earlier, like he could lose some weight.

He needs a little. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about, oh, what is the shoe weighs six ounces? This one's five ounces. How about fucking lose 10 pounds?

Yeah. How about 30 pounds of muscle mass? Yeah. So if you just like, just in general, you think about that, how much faster would you be, not hauling 30 extra pounds.

He doesn't want to be a twig. Yeah. Because he's worked really hard to get, you know, muscle. But anyway, I mean, I don't know. We'll see. He is a great runner. That's all I know. I don't know if he's got the time or the talent to ever qualify for the trials.

But he had a lot of talent that he didn't use for many years. Yeah. You tell the story in here about what gets portrayed in the once were wolves. Does I say that right? Once were wolves. Yeah. Wolves, which is a movie that's on or a video that's on your YouTube channel. And it's about going to Alaska.

This is your first time back in Alaska since your best friend, Roy, who you mentioned earlier, died on a hunt. And you go up there and you go up there to hunt O'Griz. and this is so this is at kipp's place bushwhack alaska no this was before he bought that okay so it was before he bought it yeah um i'm gonna go to the book here so you you take a shot you're tracking the bear it's you it's kip um kip's brother kobi um your guide john you're tracking this bear that you shot going to the book here pushing through the brush while following blood i heard john say behind me dead bear i had knocked i had an arrow knocked just in case a follow-up shot was needed john's keen eyes saw the grizzly lying motionless in the brush with its head down.

I moved a little closer to within five to ten yards and the bear lifted its head weakly. Hold up, said John. Bear isn't dead. As it laid its head back down, I eased to my right trying to find a shooting lane. Don't shoot. I whispered to the guys toting the guns as we moved a little closer. So the guy and Kip's brother, they have guns with them. I'm a bow hunter only. And as a romantic of the tradition having rifles involved in my hunt isn't something I'll ever agree to if asked. I don't want to sound egotistical because it's not. It's just a measure of how much bow hunting means to me. There's a line I won't cross. I don't judge others for the weapons they choose to hunt with and don't care about anyone else. I know what's important to me and my

purpose. Death by arrow or nothing. The bear raised its head once again. And this time it's haze had cleared some as we locked eyes. This is always a key moment when hunting true predators. I came to full draw, but all I had a shot at was the grizzly's head, which is notoriously made of thick bone and has caused even bullets to ricochet off the skull. In other words, not a high percentage bow shot. Holding it full draw, I dropped to one knee. At that moment, I was four yards from the bear. The difference between a grizzly and a deer, or elk is that a prey animal will burst from its last bed and run away from its pursuer. likely dying after a short burst.

Grizzlies are not prey animals. They are predators, and they survive in this country by being aggressive and keeping their spot at the top of the food chain unchallenged. Sure enough,

my bear exploded from its bed and charged me. It was weakened and had to try and fight through the thick alders to get to me. Still at full draw, I released my arrow, striking the grizzly in the chest

as it lunged toward me. John fired his rifle from the left. of me and Kobe fired his from a little behind John also to my left. A bullet hit my bear in the hip, diverting it from the path towards me and taking its feet out from under it. John shot once more through the top of its back to neutralize the threat. Fuck, I cussed. Fuck. I wasn't rattled at all, but I was certainly frustrated that I couldn't get an arrow off before the bear charged, frustrated that I even needed to shoot another arrow at all. But most of all, frustrated that others had to weigh in on my destiny,

with guns. All those feelings came to a crescendo and had me pissed. I gathered myself, approached the fallen bear, and silently offered my respect. Then I thanked John and Kobe for being so unflapp, and Kobe, and John, and I succeeded on this hunt together. I considered a team effort to say otherwise would be lying. It makes me sick when an animal suffers more than I think it should in dying from my arrow. And for whatever reason, this bear hadn't died from what I felt was a mortal wound. My other brown bears died in seconds. And that was, of course, my goal on this and all hunts. I dedicate my life to being a merciful bow hunter, which is why this experience leaves such a pit in my stomach. I'll second guess myself forever. Should I have given

the arrow more time to do its job? The bear would have bled out in just a few more minutes, I guess, but who really knows? It was late. And maybe my desire to recover my first ever grizzly pushed me when I should have suggested we'd be more patient and let the bear die without one last adrenaline surge. I needed to be more disciplined. I wasn't. And that's disappointing. Chuck. Go watch that movie.

Go watch that video. Yeah. It sucked. I mean, it was, I said later in that, I think it's in the film too, but, you know, I wanted to put on a show for Roy. You know He fell on 2015 This is 2022 I believe And I just wanted to like

We always wanted the biggest adventures The most intense The It couldn't be As close as we get to the edge That's what we wanted We loved it And so

That's what that hunt was It didn't work out the way I wanted But it's like That's a story You know it's like We'd always say like Tell me a story Do you have a story?

What the fuck's a story? And it better be a good one. It's a good story. That's what we live for. Yeah, you say, as I packed out the bear reservations aside, I couldn't have been more grateful for sharing this hunt with these men in this special magical country. I also couldn't help being overcome with emotions. I remembered the legend who used to walk this country,

the toughest and best woodsman I had ever known. If you put a bow in Roy Roth's hands, something was going to die. He was also the most optimistic person you've ever come across. I've been bow hunting for 35 years and hunted with some amazing people, some very capable, incredible bow hunters themselves, but none were like Roy. My mind drifted to our last hunt together, miles deep in the wilds of Alaska. We were four miles back up and over this big ridge and got this bull moose killed. I could still picture Roy breaking down that bull around midnight while he sang.

He was always singing and always loved the work part. he always loved being miserable this incredible hunt was something he surely watched down on and enjoyed we lived for these moments charging grisly's big boars incredible country and hard work this is for you I told Roy

miss you but we're still getting it done till we meet again somewhere in the distance I could hear Roy singing yeah it's definitely not the same without him but still trying to get it down like I said. Yeah, I think that's, um, that's, you know, the way I think about things too.

It's like, I think about my friends that I've lost and when I'm doing everything that I'm doing now is for them. And I think that ties into the last chapter of the book, which is make the most impact. and you go really deep on on talking about purpose. You talk about find your purpose and you get you detail these sections, find your purpose, embrace your purpose. You go into share your purpose, love your purpose, cherish your purpose. And again, you go into these descriptions and various tales to try and convey

what that means. And then I want to close out the book with this section. Become undeniable. You aren't born undeniable. Yes, a few individuals inherit their great abilities, but most men and women who achieve greatness are born lacking it. Their refusal to accept this becomes the very thing that defines them. We often look at the abilities of those who are undeniable as traits we can acquire.

Maybe that thing, maybe the thing that makes someone become undeniable is the act of refusing and rejecting the life and the path they're on and rewriting their story. You don't wake up undeniable. You work up to it. And the truth is you don't stop waking up and working. You do it day after day after day. If you're truly dedicated to your craft and you believe in your skills, there's only one person who can make your dreams a reality, the man in the mirror.

you might be able to look yourself in the mirror and say all the right things but if you don't believe them it's going to be tough it starts with a purpose do you know yours a writer puts pen to paper a doctor heals the sick an artist shares their vision a carpenter builds you'd never expect any of them to do anything other than their calling so come september don't never ever ever expect me to do anything other than roam the mountains bow in hand. This is my purpose. This is what I do. What about you?

There you go. And anybody that's listening right now, that question is directed at you, the reader. What about you? What is your purpose? And what are you going to do about it? Love it.

Freaking awesome, I know we touched on a bunch of stuff that you're up to, you know, lately. Obviously, you just got off of a hunt. You just got off that 250 mile race. Did you have a broken foot going into that or while you were preparing for it? I broke it last June. And it's just the brakes, they wanted to put a plate in and screws and then it has to heal them. They have to take the plate out.

And I'm just like still just, I've still been able to do a lot. But it's still, the break is just, it's on the fifth metatarsal. So it's just too much of a gap to heal. So it's just still broke. Are you going to get surgery? You're just going to hold off. I mean, if you just ran 250 miles, it's kind of like. Yeah, but it causes so much shit like, because my calf's fucked up, my hamstrings

fucked up because it's like not working like it's supposed to. So, yeah. I mean, I probably need to do something, but I just don't want to. So I just deal. I'm used to the pain now. Have you ever had surgery before? No. No, I had a hernia when I was young.

Yeah. I had a hernia surgery. That's about it. I had a neck surgery. And you've had what? Knee surgery, couple knee surgeries and dual bicep surgeries? Yeah. And a hand.

What did you get done with your hand? Took out of BB when I was young. Oh, that's right. Three times. Yeah. You do your bicep or like detach your biceps? Yeah. Both of them.

Both of them. The same time or different? Nine years apart. Okay. Doing Jiu Jitsu though, not curls. Thank you. Both of them were Jitsu, right? Yeah.

I was there for one of them. I was there for both of them. You were there for the one in the tournament, and then I forget a few. What I say to you? That wasn't about, that was a whole different time. Same day when I lost to Shana Roberts with a go-go-plata.

And what I said? You're like, you text me from across the arena, real confidence-inspiring this guy, by the way. as a coach. He goes, and I had more matches coming up too, by the way. He said, you got caught with a go-go. That's got a sting. That's it.

Thank you for that again. But yeah, I got injured later that day. Oh, man. Whatever. What else? Anything else? Does that get us up to speed? Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah, I got to do a movie this weekend. What's the movie? Where are people going to be able to watch it? Theaters. Okay. Sheriff Browning. And it's called Dream. dream yeah and you play the role of sheriff browning you said yeah yeah yeah so we're getting bad guys

um it's about human trafficking so it's pretty serious story but uh yeah we need i think it'll be good to get awareness on it so how was your acting experience terrible like it's so hard yeah so hard but uh i committed to it so i got to follow through how many days did you have to film for oh shit Well, I did quite a few days and then actor turnover issues. So we're reshooting a bunch of it. That's what I'm doing. So I got Saturday, Sunday, and then four days in July. Oh, wait.

That's for reshooting? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. So that's what you're out here for to reshoot some scenes. Yeah. So it's a- Damn. Yeah.

Other than that. You have your lines memorized, I guess? No, I haven't even looked at it. So. Did they change the line? lines? Yeah. Oh, shit. So I'm like, that's what I'm supposed to do tonight. Study. Yeah. But you're going to go sleep. So tired. Yeah. So other than that, I just got a bunch of podcasts to make up except for this one. Well, I appreciate you coming down. People can find you. Cameronhaines.com. Your YouTube, your Instagram is at

Cameron Haynes. Your podcast is called The Keep Hammering Collective. And then, of course, your book endure and now you got undeniable you're not hard to find you're out there echo Charles you get any questions yeah real quick you do you ever think about like nowadays like if you didn't get into bo-hunt because that's that was kind of the main vector right that kind of created all this and this whole thing if you didn't like like it that much so you'm saying like what would you have been doing you think do you ever think about that um I'd have a job that uh you know, I hated and I just probably drink on the weekends and maybe drink after work and have that little manufactured home in that truck I talked about and just getting through life.

So like, because right now, I mean, I don't know which one comes first, but like you found something you like so much and then did that consequently make you so like, because let's face it, right, you go kind of hard compared to a lot of us. but with that discipline did that come from something you loved like you liked it that much or was there that discipline got kind of in there you see what I'm saying yeah like was it could it have been just a matter of time before you stumbled upon something that you loved near as much you see what I'm saying yeah um I don't know because I've never found anything that I love as much as bow hunting so is there anything out there maybe um but that definitely gave me focus because like in you know in a small little town it's not like people are like telling you oh you can do be whoever you want chase your dreams they're usually just shitting on you so it's like I don't know yeah and I get it of course but bro like there's a lot of people grew up in small towns that's what I'm saying like a lot of people like doing stuff I don't know it seems like you're different in a way yeah I'm not I'm not sure I mean I got lucky with finding something

And then I could once I started to get like positive feedback. I hadn't really gotten positive feedback on much in life. And then with bow hunting I kind of did then I was like I liked writing. So I'm like well I'm gonna write hunting stories. That's what I want to be a I want to be a hunting writer and it just kind of gave me something to be like okay this is what I this is who I'm gonna be now. Yeah. It's crazy.

Were you always this vascular? Um, like when you were young? Because you're pretty impressively vascular. Yeah. Or, you know, like, because if you weren't, it's like maybe the training, you know, because endurance training makes you more like it increases your like. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you got to be lean. So the running definitely does that. You know, to be like to do these races, it's, it's how much can your body stand in training. So almost everybody's running over a hundred mile weeks. So that's 14 miles a day for sure. And if you're putting in that much work, you're going to be lean. And then as you get older, your muscles kind of get more dense.

So it kind of pushes your veins up generally. So I don't know. I think it's just kind of the training. Yeah. Just some miles and miles for 40 years. Yeah. Hell yeah. It is my anniversary as well.

Oh, really? Happy anniversary from, you know, someone who knows the deal. Yeah. All are working. Yeah, well, you know. I know, happy anniversary. How many years? 16.

Oh, nice. Yeah. You have the same birthday as my dad, too, by the way. Really? October 2nd? Oh, shit, we got all sorts of. There you go. You're going to some numerology type scenarios now?

Maybe I'll take a bow hunting era. Thought about that? I thought you were going to do that. I thought you were going to do that crossbow. I gave the crossbow arrest for a little while. Okay. We'll look into some new stuff. How about that?

Yeah. Good to see you again. Yeah, it's great to see you guys. And like I said, it's it's just being here. I mean, you guys are larger than life. It's like everybody knows Chaco and Echo Charles. And it's like just to be here is pretty sick. So at some point, if you want a bow, you know, my lift run shoot, I get everybody set up with their own bow and you take it home.

Yeah. Because like, bro, I was like, oh, I was like Greg's house. And you know, Dave, right? Dave Youngworth. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he was like, he brought his bow. He was like, hey, you know, do this.

And his arms are shorter. than mine and I'm like I'm like bro how do you even shoot this like yeah I didn't know if he was just stronger than me in that way yeah probably but it's technique but I was like it was easy at first but it was like I couldn't pull it all the way back yeah he was like no it's just fit to me yeah also also you have areas of weakness I think no but I don't know I'm strong in like literally every single possible way and you know but if I got a bow fit to me it'd be ergonomically more friendly for it it's it's it's

Pulling a bow is crazy because Huberman's pretty jacked. I had this bow like light poundage and he's pulling it, pulling it, pulling it. And he's like, is it locked? I'm like, no, just pull that fucker back. And so it's just he is strong, but that bow is different. Yeah. Interesting. Right on.

Hey, you might hear from me about that one. Got to carry the rock too. Right. Right. Okay. All right. Here we go. You can go further.

you can break tenor's record. Okay, we'll see what I can dig up. How about that? Right on. Thank you guys. Appreciate it, man. And thanks for making the jumping through hoops to get down here. And thanks for the support over the years, man.

I mean, you helped me out in my very short bow hunting journey. And thanks for what you're doing every day, man, out there pushing people, making people better. And getting people to step up and to keep hammering. It's freaking outstanding, man. I'll see you in the mountains, brother. All right. Thank you. Keep hammering.

And with that, Cameron Haynes has left the building. And he's coming off a 250-mile run, by the way. Off a multi-10-day, what, 10-day bear hunt, nine-day bear hunt, going from here to there to somewhere else. He's getting after it. Yes, sir. Recommend you do the same. When you do that, when you get after it. You, all of you, myself included, going to need fuel.

We recommend jaco fuel. Check out joccofuel.com. You get deals on jacofuel at joccofuel.com. You make sure you get the real goods at joccofuel.com. Free shipping orders over $99. Everything's in stock there. If it's not in stock there, it's not in stock anywhere. We've got a really cool loyalty program.

You know what that means? Yeah, of course. Taking care of people that take care of us. Hell yeah. You know, got free gifts and stuff like this, points off or points, and you can get some. So, subscriptions, just all happening there at joccofuel.com with everything that we make.

Protein, go, hydrate, just everything that you need. You can get it at joccofuel.com. And you can also get it at Walmart, at Wawa, vitamin shop, GNC's, commissary. all the military stores, Afees, Hanifords, dash stores in Maryland, Wakefern, shop right, H.E.B. down in Texas, Meyer up in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Publix, we got you covered.

Go clear the shelves. Get what you need. Lifetime fitness, shields, small gyms everywhere. If you need it in your place, go to JF Sales at joccofuel.com. And we will set up a wholesale account. take care of your clients take care of your people take care of your friends also origin usa dot com we make all of our clothing 100% in america whether you need jiu jitsu clothing whether you need jeans whether you need boots whether you need hunt gear whether you need hoodies sweatshirts whatever you need don't buy communist goods don't buy goods made by slaves by goods made by freedom built by freedom

origin usa.com get some it's true speaking of clothes uh jocco store.com is where you can get your discipline equals freedom clothing whether it be uh shirts you want some hats some hoodies on there

socks on there the email went out let everybody know the socks are in ready to roll so I think we still have some but yeah if you weren't on the email list you might have missed might have I think we have some what if what if jaco store And your name is Jocko. Do you get socks?

Yeah, you can get some socks for sure. I'm going to have to double check. Actually, I'm fairly certain we do have some left. But what I'm saying is that people who got the email, they got first dibs, you see what I'm saying? So anyway. If your name is Jocko, do you get dibs? Well, you know, I don't want to be above the policy.

But yeah, for you, yes. Because I haven't gotten any yet. Part of the point there is, hey, we have an email sign up thing on the bottom of the page. JoccoSter.com on the bottom page. Put your email in there. Hey, when there's some new stuff, new merch, new drop, I don't know, whatever the terminology is. If you sign up for that email, if you sign up for the email on jocco store.com, you'll get information before Jocko gets the information. There you go.

You'll get dibs before Jocko gets dibs. That's so valuable. That's valuable. Yeah, don't worry. I'm not going to spam you nothing. I'm just saying when there's new stuff, you will know about it first. You know what I'm saying? Even before Jocko, there it is.

Also on jocco store.com. Something called the shirt locker. It's a new design shirt, new design every month. subscription scenario. You know what? In the email, I think I'm going to start sending out the design. I might do that.

I don't know. Either way, new design every month. People seem to like it. A little bit more creative. It's a good one. It's called the short locker. It's on jocco store.com.

Check. Also, check out primalbeef.com and Colorado craftbeef.com. We don't always get to eat elk. We don't always get to eat Axis deer or white tail. Sometimes we got to eat sake, which is also,

let's face it. Steak a steak. If you want awesome steak from awesome people, go to Colorado Craftbeef.com or primalbeef.com and get what you need. Also subscribe to the podcast. Also check out jaco underground.com. Check out our YouTube channels.

Check out some books. Books here. We got Endur by Cameron Haynes. That was his first book. It was his most recent other book because he's written backcountry bow hunting books. but endure and then undeniable. This is the latest book that we covered today. Fantastic book.

Go check it out. He did the audio book too. I checked on that. He reads the audio book, so it's good to listen to Cam. Also, I've written a bunch of books. Dave Burke wrote a book. It's called Need to Lead.

Need to Lead. Check that one out. And then a bunch of kids books that I've written. You can get into those as well. I have a leadership consultancy. It's called Eschalon Front. we solve problems through leadership. We have in-house where we'll come to your organization and help you with your leadership.

We also have events. The next E muster event is December 7th through the 9th in Orlando, Florida. We have the council, which is happening very quickly, June 22nd through the 25th. We have the FTXs. We have women's assembly. That's coming up in the fall as well. So if you want to come to one of the first. these events or if you want us inside to help your organization, go to Ascelonfront.com and check it out.

We also have an online training academy because leadership is a skill and you need to learn it and practice it. And you can do that via online. We have a bunch of courses. We have live interactions. We have Q&A sessions. So if you want to get better at business, you want to get better at life, you want to get better as a friend, as a family member, go to Extreme Ownership.com and check it out. Also, if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families.

Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an incredible charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's Mighty Warriors.org. Also check out Micah Fink's organization, Heroes and Horses.org. And finally, Jimmy May's organization, Beyond the Brotherhood, helping seals get out.

of the military and on the right path beyond the brotherhood.org if you want to connect with us for cameron haines as i said cameron haines.com he's got a youtube and an instagram that are both at cameron haines and then his podcast is called the keep hammering collective and if you want to check out or if you want to connect with me you can go to jocco.com and then on social media i'm at jaco jaco willink echoes at echo charles just be careful because you shouldn't be spending all your time on it the social media channels you should be running you should be lifting running and shooting is what you should be doing lift run shoot thanks once again to cam cam haines for finding time in between ultra marathons and deep country deep back country hunts and everything

else that he's got going on to come and share these lessons it's always good to see you brother and i'll see you in september also thanks to all of our troops that are out there around the globe right now in these uncertain times. Thank you for guarding us and our way of life. And thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol,

secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for guarding us here at home. And for everyone else out there from the book, Undeniable by Cameron Haynes, obstacles can't stop you. Circumstances can't stop you. failures can't stop you only you can stop you the struggle never ends it's a lifelong war but each day each day is a battle that can be won that choice is up to you and that's all i've got for tonight

until next time is zecho and jaco out