Jocko Podcast - 511: Between Firefights and Faith, Lessons From Ramadi to Recovery. With Ben Sledge.

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

>Join Jocko Underground< From the chaos of Ramadi to the pain of losing his best friend, Ben Sledge recounts combat, moral injury, and how faith and storytelling became his path to healing.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 511 with Echo Charles and me Jocker Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. I slipped out the back and sprinted around a corner where I ran smack dab into a concrete wall. Hey, I screamed, pounding my fists against it. We have injured. We have injured. There was no response, so I kept pounding and screaming, knowing time was short.

I was in an unprotected area, and the Haji had our number. until the Air Force leveled the side of the mountain they were shooting from, we would take more casualties. Hey! I choked out in an almost frightened sob. The fear was finally beginning to grip me, and my hands trembled. We are going to die. And that right there is an excerpt from a book called Where Cowards Go to Die, which is written by a man by the name of Benjamin Sledge. And Ben Sledge is a former army soldier who served both in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

And in Iraq, he served in the Battle of Ramadi. And he spent most of his time in combat conducting civil affairs and psychological operations. And if you don't know what those are, you're about to find out. He's a recipient of the Bronze Star, two army accommodation medals of Purple Heart. He's now a writer, a graphic designer, a web developer, a speaker, and a mental health. specialists and it's an honor to have him here with us here tonight to share some of his experiences and lessons learned Ben thanks for joining us man thanks for having me it's an honor yeah uh we got connected through the meetings that we are currently having for the ready first reunion so the

1 1 1a d is having a reunion and if you're listening to this and you were in romadi with the 1 1d whether you attached the 1 1d whether you showed up and you were doing some work or you're a You have a family member that was served there, Gold Star family. You are invited. And if you want to join us there, go to Ramadi Reunion20.com. It's January 16th and 17th down in Texas, 2026. It's the 20. It's been 20 years, bro.

20 years. I can't even believe it. It's, uh, I mean, it feels like yesterday in a lot of ways. Yeah. It's really weird to jump on those calls and be talking about, you know, what, what types of meals we're going to have and all the stuff because those you know those battalion commanders and the brigade commander colonel mcfarland like i haven't had a you a meeting with all those guys since we were in remoddy and we were remoddy we probably did i'd have to go by i'd have to ask

someone because my memory has been off but you know we we did at least a meeting a week with the brigade and the battalion commanders were in there and sitting around the table figuring out what's going on what's next and so to go from that to No contact. Yeah, no contact. And talking about, hey, where would be the best place to have meals, meals, and what kind of table should we set up and what kind of music should we have? It's pretty awesome.

But it brings back some really good memories, some really bad memories as well. But most of them are really good memories of working with incredible people. So if you were one of those people and you were in Ramadi with the 1-1-A-D, check out Ramadi Reunion20.com and sign up, register. We'll see you down in Texas. forward to it. Now, getting back to you. So the book, so you wrote this book. I did. I actually wrote it. I didn't have a ghostwriter like everybody else. Well, not everybody else has ghost riders. I haven't had a ghostwriter either. I know you didn't. That's why I brought it up. It's tempting.

And I'll tell you when we first, when I talked to my, when Laif and I started going around talking to publishers, some of the feedback we got was, well, you guys should just get a ghostwriter. And, you know, when I go back and look at the first drafts of that first book, I kind of realize why. But, you know, our writing wasn't just wasn't good yet. And it takes a little time. But yeah, so that's cool that you wrote your book. Great title, by the way, where cowards go to die. And I'm sure we'll get into where that came from.

But the book, the book is, I mean, it's a great book. We're going to talk about your relation to E.B. Sledge, which is a distant great cousin or something like that. But very cool to read the book. and it goes through, you know, you wrote it in a style and you, and we talked before we hit record, you were talking about you Pulp Fiction Debt, which is a good way of saying it. So it jumps around, but it makes it a very interesting read and you're, you know, much like Pulp Fiction, you're figuring out things as it goes along and it paints a really cool picture.

But it does give you, it does give us the reader a little bit of background about how you grow up and I want to get into some of that right now. And then you can add some context around it. But let's go to the book, where cowards go to die. It says, was a first in many ways long before people considered nursing an acceptable field for men to enter he stepped to the position and was often ostracized much like ben stiller's character in the movie meet the parents that is classic and this is what in the 80s so this is yeah really ostracized oh it's serious it was weird like I just thought he was a doctor you know I was like oh he comes

home and scrubs and everything else and then when I found out he was a nurse and I would tell people that they were like oh that stigs uh and as you said i never thought much about it but kids would tease me because my dad was a nurse when you're a child and your dad comes home in scrubs and overcoat you assume he's a doctor so when other kids spoke from his position sometimes it led me to scuffles on the playground however when your dad is a nurse in the AIDS wing during the early days of an epidemic that people believe is airborne you might as well be a pariah once people at our church found out my dad was treating homosexual men and women. They looked at him with disgust.

They wouldn't sit next to us for fear of contracting the disease or getting the sin on them. Yeah, it was weird. Dang. Yeah. And where is this? Where you're growing up, Oklahoma? Oklahoma. Yeah, it's also Oklahoma.

It's like the buckle of the Bible belt. And I just, and my parents met at like a Bible college and everything. So we'd grown up in church. And I remember my mom specifically one day, we were in the car and she was like, you cannot tell anyone the wing that your dad works in, like at all. Because everybody believed, oh, you know, it was airborne initially or you could get it by kissing somebody. And so, and we knew the difference, you know, we knew the science behind. What year were you born? 81.

Yeah. So this is like prime. Prime. Everyone's AIDS horror. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not just like the gay and lesbian community. It's like drug addicts too. So there's a lot of stigma that goes along with it. But my dad had always just had this compassionate heart.

And he wanted to take care of, you know, the marginalized. And so he had a friend named Dan who was one of the first people, and this is how wild the story is, one of the first people who started interacting with men and women who had AIDS. And like nobody knew what to do. So he was running literally a kind of a, it was a trailer on attractive land treating these men and women because they just didn't know what to do. And my dad was so inspired by his friend Dan, then he was like, okay, I'll start up the first, like, AIDS wing in the hospital.

And so eventually my mom was, you know, kind of standoffish. And then my dad brought her in and she eventually became friends with, like, a lot of the patients who were dying at the time. And, like, even would hold their hands. And I found her one day crying in our kitchen because one of our friends had died. So it was just growing up in that manner, it was different to kind of see that. And it always led me towards being a little bit more compassionate towards, you know, towards people. But also at the same time, it was difficult growing up because, man, like, dude, people just wouldn't, if they found out, they wouldn't sit next to us. They wouldn't talk to us.

You know, I write about this in the book that at one point, my parents' friends were having a vote on whether they could stay friends with them. Dang. So, yeah. Breaking it down to a democratic situation. Yeah. You know, you mentioned that you, at one point, you know, you're a kid and you tell your dad like, hey, dad, can't you just not help these people? Like, I want to be, I don't want to be ostracized. And your dad says, Benjamin, he said laying a hand on my shoulder, if no one helps these people who will.

Right. That left a pretty big impact. you. Now, meanwhile, you're grown up, you know, church is a part of it, but this is the, this is like, in the 80s, you have, let's see, pastors of the 1980s and 90s promoted wealth, blessings, politics, and the shunning of those outside the church. And, you know, you talk a lot about how you saw that. You saw sort of, hey, this is, these, these church people may not be living in a very Christ-like way.

Yeah. Another little influence you had in your world is Karate Kid Part 2. Oh, man. Saw it in the theaters. And you started taking, you say a Christian karate class. Yeah. What differentiates that from a regular karate class? So it was weird.

My parent, everything. Oh, my God. Okay. So let's back up here for a second. Dude, we're going to start throwing out because we also have this thing that you started playing saxophone because you thought Kenny, you thought Kenny G was going to get him chicks. I did. I literally, and dude, the sax is back now, man. They're bringing, like, synth wave.

And, I mean, they're putting in, like, metal stuff now, too, like sleep token. I'm like, oh, man, I should have stayed with the saxophone. But, no, I, so you got to remember. And I'm sure you remember that. And people who are a little bit older, like Gen X and elder millennials will remember this. Like, Satanic Panic was, like, big during that time period. I can't remember. I read about it in the book, but it's like 60 minutes.

or Dateline or somebody, they started linking like metal music to like the occult. And I was a metalhead. And then like I loved like all the things that were goth and, you know, like the big four, you know, Megadeth, Metallica, Pantera, or not Pantera, Slayer and Anthrax. I've seen all of them. But it was just when you were kind of like outside that like church environment, you were doing those things, you had tattoos or whatever it was, it was like, this very standoffish, like, kind of time period in the world. And so, um, you know, I grew up

thinking like if you played a record backwards, like that, you know, you'd hear some hidden message. Backmasking. Yeah. Oh yeah. I played a lot of my records backwards. I didn't too. I was just like, what is it at? Are they saying to worship Satan now? Like, but they, they would pick, you know, weird stuff like journey like, you know, Steve Perry, send her my love or, um, you know, don't stop really always seemed like a satanic type dude. I know. Like, and the belief was like you were going to do meth and like stab your parents and become this degenerate and like Tipper like Tipper Gore, Al Gore's wife like started a

task force against this stuff. So and that's where we got, you know, the parental advisory stuff. So like a lot of my upbringing was masked by kind of this like I had the things that I loved but they were not acceptable because of the church environment. And yet at the same time, the church environment that I was. growing up in was very much about, there's this thing called like prosperity gospel and word of faith. It's like kind of name it and claim it. And like if you're really having a faith and you're going to be super loaded and rich and God's going to drop a Maserati on your porch. And like a lot of

people still kind of believe that where they get this like genie God character. And so for me, it was it was very difficult to kind of reconcile the two. And I was like, I think this might be bunk at one point. So. Yeah, you name the chapters in the book. Are they all songs? All metal songs. Yeah, they're all. So I recognized, I think, 85% of them.

Chapter 4 is called Freak on a Leash. You know, that's a great corn song. And you talk about church camps. Church camps were all the rage growing up. I'm not sure how many I'd been to, but in the mid-1990s, I doubled up. Not wanting to be left out of summer fun. I joined a friend and some acquaintances at a Methodist church camp,

despite attending a non-denominational church myself, we were, we young teens, however, were more interested in girls than experiencing God. So is that, is that kind of like the thing?

Like you're going to this camp and you're just thinking, well, it's going to be a good place to meet girls. Yeah. Do a little Bible activity and then hang out with girls. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, that was the thing. I knew that all the girls from my like high school and other places that were going to these camps. And the crazy part too

is like, we weren't really interested in like what they were talking about. Like most of the kids were like sneaking out into the woods like hook up or smoke weed. So it was like a social gathering. Yeah. It really was. Like I mean, you have to remember like in Oklahoma and Texas and other places kind of in that area during that time period, like in order for you to be even be considered a good businessman, you had to be a church parishioner. And so it was something that your kids did.

It was kind of like this status. and so everybody would go to these things. I'll tell you this. I remember, I went to school one time. Do you remember the WWJD bracelets? Yeah. Do you guys remember those? Okay.

I'm sure. What would Jesus do? Yeah. I saw like everybody in my high school wearing him. And this one kid, he was like super popular. I was like, oh, I didn't know you're a Christian. He's like, oh, I'm not. I just saw everybody wearing this.

Just straight up, huh? Yeah. He was like, oh, it's a fashion statement. And like that's what it really was like during that time period. And so yeah, it was because of my own, I would say core wounds where I was like, you know, the guy with long, I literally had hair down to here. And I parted it in the middle. And my brother called it a butt cut because it looked like a butt crack doing in the middle of my head.

Because I wanted to look like, you know, the band. So, and I'm wearing those flared jinko jeans like as the style was and like the band t-shirts. What was your gateway musical band that got you into? You know, was it, did it open with Metallica? Yeah, it was Metallica. Because the Black album came out. That was a super popular album. People like me that were into Metallica since we were like, since 1983.

And when that album came out, we were like, sellouts. Like sellouts. What are you doing making songs that are less than seven minutes long? But it did exactly what musical. the musical world thought it would do is it brought Metallica completely mainstream, completely mainstream. And then what happens is people start listening to the older albums, and then the next thing they figure out that there's other bands out there, like Slayer.

Yeah. And like for me, I would honestly say the gateway was probably grunge. Like Nirvana and Soundgarden and that, you know, all those bands were influential. I remember when Kirk Obain died. And my first concert ever was Foo Fighters. And it was shortly after he died and Dave Grohl had started. it. So I knew like all the history and everything. And then that just led, you know, when the Black album came out, I was like, this is awesome. And then I went back like you, like you said, and I listened, I was like, oh, these albums are better than the black album. I was like,

ride the lightning is sick. And corn, of course, which I was, I was an early adopter of corn. I saw corn before the album came out in New York City in a place like that was probably a little bit bigger than this room that we're in right now. And I was like, oh, who the hell are these guys. This is epic. Bozac. John Bozac brought me to that show. All right. So, um, this is just, you're at one of these church groups. My problems began one evening during one of the mandatory church services in the middle of the speaker's message. He asked how many of us liked Metallica's new album. Excited that someone understood me. I raised my hand. Then he exclaimed in a booming voice, it's satanic. Oh, there you go. And then they had a straight up CD burning.

like fire. Oh, these were huge. Like, I, that's just one instance. It used to be like every church camp. Like, talk, talk to some kids that grew up during this area. We all have these, these memories, you know, and there's, I write about this. Like, there's always some dumb kid who's like trying to impress a girl. And everybody's like kind of feeling, you know, the weight of the message because they're, to some degree, they're emotionally manipulating you. You know, being in the civil affairs and sciop community, you start to realize real quick, what that looks like, especially years after the fact. So they're kind of...

Especially when you're 15. Yeah. Yeah. When you're, you don't know it then, but as you grow older, like, oh, there was a level of emotional manipulation there. And so everybody's, you know, tossing their CDs in or cassettes and stuff. And I had bought three cassettes of the black helmet. That's how much I wore it out in my tape player in my, uh, 1987 Honda Civic.

Oh, yeah. With a stick shift skull shifter. Nice. But yeah, some kid would always like want to impress the girl who is there. And I remember this one kid, he was just like, oh, listen to that. You can hear like the demons hissing. And it was just, it was plastic. Like burning.

It was just the fire. And I'm like, at least I paid attention in science class. And, you know, this stuff works. But something, am I getting this right in the book? You talk about how you come home from one of these camps when someone, you like, Carla, you wanted to kind of basically be normal. Cut your hair and you kind of got a little less meddled out. Is that what happened?

Yeah, well, I don't know if I put this in the book. The Hansons came out. The Hansons. Yeah. The m-bop. Oh, Lord. Yeah. And they're from Oklahoma.

So I had the long hair and I looked like the oldest one, which everyone thought was the ugly one. And that's going to stick. And so I would get stopped and they'd be like, oh my God, are you Isaac Hansen? And I'd be like, no. And so a combination of that and then the fact that I even got kicked out of like I was in with like the skaters, the goss, you know, the metal kids. I didn't really hang out with like the got got caught out because it wasn't cool enough for them. And I was like, I thought you guys were the group that was supposed to accept everybody. And so I just realized, like, who I am is not acceptable to the world around me, so I have to change who I am.

And so I literally went to my mom and I was like, I want to cut my hair and we need to go shopping. Like, this was like an overnight change. I cut my hair from shoulder length. We have photos of this. And I asked her, I said, hey, can I get frosted tips too? Because that was in style because I wanted to look like Mark McGrath from Sugar Ray. Because Mark McGrath got chicks. Like you can see all the core wounds like festering because of just rejection and everything else.

And like I bring that up because I, you know, working in mental health, you kind of realize like what are the driving forces behind like why you do what you do? What's the trauma? And so for me it was a lot of unresolved issues from my childhood that brought, you know, when I finally got into healing that I realized I had to overcome. And so one of these frosted tips are deeply rooted in your soul. in my soul now. So, and I started shopping at Abercrombie and Fitch. Oh, dang. Like, yeah, it was, it was a really weird kind of trend.

As opposed to hot topic. Yes, hot topic. And what was the other one? Sunpack. Was it Sunpack? Yeah, probably Sunpack. Yeah. Check.

And how did, how did the world accept you now that you had frosted tips in Abercrombie and French or whatever it's called? I got invited to a couple things. I remember like I got invited to this birthday party and it was like the and I was like, why do they invite me? That's weird. It was like the popular kids. And I went and I hung out and realized like this isn't really what I want.

And I ended up discovering some friends who were like into the same things as me. They were kind of fringe, but they looked cool enough. And so we would just go to concerts all the time together. And like I swear I don't think I lived at my house on the weekends at all. And even sometimes during the week, because I was just always crashing at my friend's house or we were crashing at each other's and going to concerts and, you know, having bonfires out in the woods and, you know, souping out or trucks and driving really fast, doing all the dumb stuff that teenagers do. Yeah. We were total teenage boys just fueled by like testosterone and anger. And then it sounds like you had like a final straw with the church scene when this pastor was like stealing the dose of.

donations of the church while having an affair with one of the church assistants behind his wife's back. Well, and his wife, they were swingers too. It got even weirder. She was like addicted to oxycotton. Like what happened was is one of our family friends had so my parents were like, we want you to find your own path, which I really respect them for that. And I do, I'm doing the same thing with my kids. Like I don't want my faith beliefs to transfer to my kids without them thinking critically through that. I think that that's such an important and parents put too much pressure on their children. And I think you have a responsibility to raise them. You talk about it, you know, and the way of the warrior kid and everything. There's a responsibility there. But as far as like discovering their values and their identities and different stuff, you can help

mold that. But the issue was is, and the thing that I loved about my parents is they were like, we want you to find your own path, your own faith path. They're like, try attending a church. And so I go to this church. It's like super popular. It's new and up and coming. This guy had been on TV.

And so family friends started going there. And one of our friends is a private investigator. And he uncovers all this stuff. And I'm at quick trip picking up like a soda and a like bear claw or something after work. And I see this homeless guy and he's asking for money. And, you know, I was thinking back to my dad, you know, who had a heart for the margin. and I was like, and I just, I was like, man, I bet my pastor would just probably walk up, flash some, like, slick grin and it's like power suit, shake his hand and be like, God's got you, buddy, and then just like nail his secretary in a pile of

cash. And I was like, all, I'm out. I was like, this is all junk. This is like, I took that Carl Marks route. I was like, this is an opiate for the masses. I was like, who cares about this stuff? I'm going to go do me. and, you know, and that's when I was like, I got to get out of Oklahoma. This sucks. And so I was like, I got to join the military. And luckily you had some military history in your family, which is pretty awesome. Your grandfather had served in World War. Both of them served in World War II?

Both of them. One state side, but my great uncle stormed the beaches in the Pacific, his name was Charlie Applin Sledge. And then my grandfather on my dad's side, Emmett Shelton Sledge, he stayed. state side at Fort Bliss, and they figured out that he could type. So he stayed stateside. Whereas my grandfather, Reginald Cortland Sledge, or Reginald Cortland Whitson, he was, went through ROTC and became, they were like, hey, do you want to jump out of planes? And he was like, that sounds cool. And so he became a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne, and then went over to the European Theater and

and missed the D-Day jump because he got pneumonia and was hospitalized. And then they transferred him to Patton's third ID in Germany. And he became Patton's Scotch supplier there. And he would always tell the story. And I just remember it. He even wrote it down before he died. So I got, I was able to pull that from his, you know, his own story. Yeah.

And by the way, I haven't said this yet. I'm just like hitting the absolute wave tops. All that stuff that you just said, you got a. all those cool stories in here, a bunch of details around that, your family history. So get the book, everyone. It's just a great read. It's just a great read. Yeah.

It's like part pulp fiction, part just life of a freaking crazy teenage kid in Oklahoma, which what kind of awesome. And then we get into war. So that's how you end up joining the Army. You say when I turned 18, my opportunity came knocking the old posters on my wall reminding me to be all you can be, convinced me there was an escape. Army recruiters courted me. often scaring my parents who insisted I become a mail clerk or take some mundane job to help pay for college we couldn't afford.

On December 16th, 1999, I raised my right hand, swore an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and took the lowest rank with which you can enter the armed services private. You want. I didn't tell my parents I'd enlist in the Army Reserve Special Operations Attachment until after I've been sworn in. Special operations members often use uncommercial warfare methods due to their highly specialized training, which can range from language. to warfare to diplomacy. I didn't know it at the time. I just thought special operations sounded cool when my parents found out they were not pleased.

They were not pleased. Were they not pleased that you joined the Army? Were they not pleased that you did the special operations component? Or just everything? So originally I wanted to join the Marines. So I was like, oh, they have a slick uniform. You know, you saw the recruiting ads. And so the recruiters came over and just scared the crap out of my parents.

And they were like, nope, we don't. want any of that. And I was like, this sounds awesome. And my grandfather started to play a big influence. And he, you know, he had been in the army and he wanted both me and my brother to do the army. And so that kind of made my decision. But there was this recruiter, this guy that I knew. He's since passed away. And he was like, telling me about special operations. And I was like, oh, that sounds cool. I was like, I bet girls like special operations, you know. Again, I go back to this. This is just how stupid and trite I was during the time period. But they, when he mentioned it, I was like, that sounds interesting. It sounds safe enough to where I'm not like doing Green Beret or I'm doing, you know, Rangers or anything like that to where my parents are going to be too worried.

And he was like, have you ever heard of the Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command? no, I don't even know what that is. And he was like, you're going to get trained in like diplomacy and languages and, and, you know, reconstruction efforts and then, you know, human, like human, gathering into, I was like, oh, this, you know, this could actually. That's like the perfect fit for you. Right. And it could further my career as I go on. And I go, this is a good skill to have outside of the military. So I was like, they'll probably like that. But all they heard was special operations, reserve unit. And just freaked out. Jack. Fast forward a little bit. book. I began the Army's basic

combat training in Fort Benning with Bravo Company 347 Infantry. My most vivid memory is of some other kid prior to our drill sergeants at Shark Attack telling everyone, hey guys, let's stick together. If we stick together, this won't be so bad. That kid never had a chance and neither did I. The drill sergeants entered the bus

screaming, tossing equipment and privates out the back door and everyone panicked. Outside other recruits were already doing push-ups, sit-ups, flutter kicks, or running in place. Some poor kid was told to beat his face and he began punching himself. Rather than laugh, the drill sergeant screamed even more. No private, dumb fuck, do pushups, which I was like, yeah, that's just where it's happening. And I know they don't do the shark attack

anymore unless you're in the Marines. I miss that, man. Do they really not do that? Not in the Army anymore. They've kind of changed it. I think they're bringing it back. I thought Pete Hakeseth brought it back. I hope they do. I think it works. Personally, I think you have to break down. So many people coming in the military with their individual ideas and trying to be this army of one or whatever, I think you have to beat that out of them and break it down so that they become a cohesive unit and fighting force. And if you don't have that, then you're going to continue to have those individual ideals and like I want to be special. And I really believe in the basic combat training. And I'm sure you know, like the more that they are just breaking you down, it helps you rebuild into this

stronger element where you're willing to do anything for the people next to you. Yeah, they have a, they rebuilt like the seal training compound, and it's really beautiful. But one of the things, they have very few things written up on the walls. You know, some of them are a lot of things that people have heard before. Like, no, the only easy day was yesterday, that type of thing. But one of the things that says, abandoned self-embraced team. That's all it says. You're like, that's the point.

That's the point. Like you, you as an individual don't matter. You have to embrace the team. Again, you got some good stuff going on in boot camp. And you say the day I graduated, my family received the honor of. sitting in the reviewing stain. My grandfather had approached the conge, pulled out his old World War II

military identification card, which you actually just showed me before he hit. That's just awesome. It blew the brass's minds that a paratrooper from the greatest generation was sitting in their presence,

so they invited him to sit next to the colonel. The colonel then introduced him. There you go. Outstanding, if you're watching on YouTube, there it is. Was sitting in their presence, so they invited him to sit next to the colonel. The colonel was then introduced him

as an honored guest and war hero. I beamed ear, a year knowing my granddad was proud that I'd survived the same gauntlet he'd been through. And so that's it. Get done with boot camp. And then you go back home and now you start going to college, right? That's the deal. Yeah.

I had done the reserve to do, you know, go to college. That was the big goal. My parents wanted me to go to college. They had both gone to college. My dad went to University of Texas, El Paso. My mom went to a small private college. and like, called Bull, no, I can't remember.

It was somewhere in Michigan. But they were like, you're going to go to college. In order for you to have a good job, you and your brother have to go to college. We don't got the money to pay for that, join the military kind of thing. Where are you on September 11th? I am sleeping off a hangover with my fraternity in my fraternity room.

So, and my mom called, like kept calling. And I'll never forget it. Like, she keeps. calling. So I finally pick it up and I'm like, mom, what? And we have these lofts. And like, we lived in this double wide trailer that was like stacked and that I was a signa f, so sigma phi epsilon. And it was, yeah, it was like built in the 19, it was dirty. Like we would party in the house because originally we were a wet campus before it went dry. I remember like kegs being in the showers and stuff. So yeah, it was like animal house. It really was. So I'm, I'm sleeping off

this hangover and my mom's calling repeatedly and finally pick up and I'm like what and she was like turn on the TV right now and so I go to the boxy thing I climbed down and I'm like what she she's like a plane hit the world trade center and I was like and I'm watching the ticker on the bottom right I'm sitting there and I'm like it's like a pilot air big whoop you know and as I say that I watched the other plane fly into the tower and just goes, and at that point, I knew my life was going to change. And I was just, I ran down the hallway screaming. I was like, everybody get up. Everybody get up or under attack.

And people are like, what? Shut up, Sledge. You know, sure enough, they canceled like all classes that day. We're all just sitting around this TV just glued to it, trying to figure out what the hell is going on. And I was just like, this is it. and then September 25th, I find myself at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. There you go.

Fast forward a little bit. This is a chapter called Down in a Hole. Another great lyric from the incredible band, Allison Janes. South Padre Island, Texas, March, March of 2003. So you're in college. And in this particular thing, the whole. that you're in is a sand hole filled with vomit. And this is, this is, normally I wouldn't tell an author of this, but this was probably too much

information for me. You said that the, the, the puke was made up of beer and lunchables. Oh yeah. I'm like, that is not the detail I wanted here. And what had happened was you're basically, your brother had also joined the army. Right. He was a combat medic. So both you guys are doing this.

and now you're out in this party and all of a sudden, um, it turns out that we're invading Iraq. And that's what, that's what, that's what you find out at this time. And so now you say just a matter of time. I told myself one over over again,

just a matter of time. The call came in the middle of one of my art classes. Three days later, I wasn't heading to Iraq as I'd expected though. I was off to Afghanistan leaving in two months. And then you proceeded tell us about the sledge vests. Oh, you ever heard of Sledge Fest? No.

Yeah. We used to have something, well, Echo used to, he's got a friend named Tim. And they used to do a party called Timbo Mania. That's true. Now, so Sledgefest was his version of Timbo Mania. Oh, I like it. You got Timbo Fest, huh? So you guys would do these massive freaking Sledgefest parties.

And what were you using? You're getting beer money from like your, uh, my GI Bill. From your GI Bill. I would buy, I, you know, this is. Just hubris gone to extremes to where I would, no joke, just use my GI Bill money to entice people to show up to these parties. You know, because I'm buying all the kegs. I'm like, there's going to be eight kegs there, guys, and, you know, trash cam punch and like all this other stuff. And they just kind of became these all-campus ragers.

I threw one with another fraternity one time that got us sent to the university standards because we technically broke into the Oklahoma State Yacht Club. and like through a huge rager there. What part of that is technically. Well, we got an invite or you didn't. We got a key from a member of the yacht club, but it got so big and so out of control, he had to have plausible deniability. So we got sent to standards.

And everyone was like, Sludge, you got to calm down, bro. Did you guys get put on double secret probation? Not double secret probation, but we did get put on probation. So you're doing these parties. and now next chapter fell on black days. What do we got, Soundgarden?

Yeah. Now you're in training, preparing to go. Classroom to field tactics. Drills prepared us for quagmires. We'd be bound to face. How do you know if the person you're speaking with is a terrorist? When is it a civilian? When should you use lethal force?

Tell us a little bit about civil affairs, like what's your job going to be in this is siops. Just to give us a, for someone that's a civilian, doesn't know what this, what this job is? Right. Like, what are you training for in these scenarios? So the thing that you have to understand is civil affairs and psychological operations were created out of a need that the green braes had during Vietnam. They had a lot, you're always going to have civilian interference on the battlefield, correct? Like you were out there, you know, we're the guys that always have the Terps, the interpreters.

Some of the SEAL teams had it. But typically, most people would come out to us. And so we're always outside the wire. and always on missions. And I love to tell people, I was like, they're like, how was it? I was like, well, you either make a lot of friends or you get shot at a lot. So what civil affairs does is in a lot of ways, and it depends on how much you want to get into that world, is you kind of become a geopolitical expert. And geopolitics is just a fancy way of saying the way that geography, history and demography, you know, population bell curves and everything,

dictates oftentimes the political landscape of everything. So if you look at Russia, for example, largest landmass, but most of it's not arable and they cannot survive without the former Soviet states as a barrier. You know, the czars really use that. So studying histories like that and then also like knowing how, you know, Alexander the Great marched through Afghanistan and stopped there as far as this conquest. And what is the backstory and the history and the history? and why are these people fighting these people groups and and what is their, you know, bell curve look like. So understanding of like their history, their culture, their background. And then at the same time, you know, they want us to do reconstruction efforts to where you are

effectively, they always call it winning hearts and minds and everybody hated that, that context. But it was really true. If you think about like Ramadi, one of the things that I consistently said is I said, if we went in, like if the Chinese government came in and destroyed American infrastructure and all of our creature comforts, of course, you're going to have a violent, you know, insurgency on your hands. But if you restore creature comforts like water, sewage, trash, electricity, most times people aren't going to want to go out and shoot at you and different things like that. So there's that aspect of going, how can I influence, persuade, and change the populace to get them on my side? And so you're working a lot with a local indigenous population. You're understanding their culture,

their history, their background, the occasion, what their needs are. And then at the same time, you have all these door-kicking abilities because you're going out with infantry line units, other special operations units. Like we worked with SEAL Team 5 when we were in Ramadi. And so those key aspects help us change the face of the battle space and especially get the civilian populace out of the way so that special operations forces and infantry line units can do their jobs without having to worry like are we about to drop a j-dam on this house that is filled with civilians or are these good people that are going to give us the information that we need because we've established rapport with them and so a lot of people like thought during the GWAT that they could do the civil

affairs jobs I saw so many infantry officers be like oh we'll just throw money at this project and like, we'll build soccer fields because Iraqis love soccer fields. And I was like, this is the third one you've built and now it's just a trash dump. Like, this is not winning the war effort or the hearts and minds. It's not pacifying the civilian populace. And especially if you're not working with the tribal warlords or the shakes and whatnot, you're going to lose that war. And that's really what became the basis of the coin strategy while we were in Iraq, especially under Travis Patrickman, who was the S-5, and I'm getting ahead of myself, he was the Civil Affairs liaison to Colonel McFarland who understood the Civil Affairs mission and the language and the culture, history,

background indication of what was going on. And if you miss out on those things or you do them poorly, you're going to ruin the battle space. Oh, yeah. It's going to be a total disaster, a total disaster. And so that was my job. And initially I didn't really take it seriously. And then when I, you know, moved up and rank and hit, you know, my NCO, like my non-commission officer time, that's when I realized like, oh, I got to get better at this. No, it's, you know, every line of operation that you're conducting, they fall apart without the other, you know. And that was a huge thing. Like there's some, there's some people that are, if you say, oh, we're just going to win hearts and minds, that's going to be problematic because the insurgents will kill you and they'll kill the civilians. If you just say, oh, we're just going to kill the bad guys, well, then you're not, like you're saying, you're destroying infrastructure, you're going to have collateral damage, it's going to be a disaster.

So you really have to work together to be balanced to make sure that you're eliminating bad guys while you're supporting the local populace. And that was a huge part of, you know, for me, when I got to Ramadi and read FM3, Tech 24, which it was out in draft form. And I was reading it, recognizing that we have to do something different. And, you know, the main thing that I thought and got out of that was secure the local populace. You have to make the, just what you just said, you have to make the local populace feel like they are safe and they can live a normal life. If you allow the insurgents to abuse and killed and murder and rape them, they're going to cower. Right. And if you have so much collateral damage or you don't, or you destroy their infrastructure, they're going to rebel. So it's a really fine line that has to be walked.

And actually, Ramadi ended up being sort of a model for the way that is supposed to work. And like you said, we'll get into that. But let's rewind a few years. Tell us about Sergeant Paul Gonzo Gonzalez, who plays a big role in this. Gonzo is to this day one of my closest friends. And he, oh, dude, he's still in the Army. Epic. He's a, he was a Mustang like you.

he made it all the way from E1 to E7, then switched over to the dark side. Sorry. It's all good. And now he just got picked up for Lieutenant Colonel. That's outstanding. Yeah. And I was like, what do you want to do with your life, Paul? He's like, I'll probably go to Army War College.

And like, I mean, he's been in Army commercials and everything now. Like, it's ridiculous. But Paul was the guy who took me from a dumb private and part of the E4 Mafia, you know, for those that are listening, the E4 Mafia. Like when you get to E4, you just kind of become a jackass and you like sham out and do all. And you're kind of leading the other privates in like these very destructive manners. So I was like the king of the E4 mafia. I was like, how can we sham out?

Oh, we're in the motor pool. No, we're not. So I was kind of that ultimate shammer. And what Paul did is he took me from this kid who was really afraid of going to war. And he raised me up underneath his leadership. And Gonzo, like, it's kind of a bummer that he's a, he's a pasty Irishman. It's really funny with the last name Gonzalez, but his wife is Hispanic and so is his kids, so it's just even weirder.

But he's huge. Like, he's a tall, big dude. And I wish he didn't have the last name of Gonzalez because I would have nicknamed him the Iceman. Because, like, nothing, but he's one of those rare breeds of soldiers that, like, you can make him hump a million miles. His feet will fall off and everything will suck and he'll never complain. But when your last name is Gonzo and your last name is Gonzales and you're in the military,

you have at least an 80% chance of your nickname being Gonzo. That's the way it works. So he was just Gonzo. And he gave you nickname as well. He gave you the nickname because you were talking on the phone with your boys about some party that the frat was having. And he tells you, hey, Hollywood, turn off your fucking phone. Yeah.

So you got the nickname Hollywood. You wanted everyone to call you Sledge. Yeah, like, I was like, Sledge is powerful and strong. Hollywood is, and I was. You know, I was this larger-than-life character who was just constantly doing dumb stuff. And I was, you know, most people don't know how they're going to respond when you find out you're going to war. And I put on this kind of brave facade where I was like, oh, I'm going to go do my duty like my grandfather did. and I'm going to, I'm going to show the world that I have value and meaning and worth because

I'm a man now and I went to war, but internally I was terrified. I really was. How old were you? I was 21, I think. I was just about to turn 22. What were you scared of? So what had happened initially was when we were in our pre-mobilization training, we met with this old special forces sergeant who's team. we were going to be replacing.

This is the don't die brief or the die brief. Like you're all going to die brief? You're all going to die brief. So that's scared the shit out of you. Yeah, it scared the shit out of me. And Paul saw this like, you know, map on the wall of Afghanistan. He was like, where all those stars in that area? And he was like, oh, that's where everybody gets killed.

He was like, you definitely don't want to go there. And Paul's like, that's exactly where I want to go. And so it freaked me out. And so I started kind of deteriorating. Just call it spade of fate. I was deteriorating morale. and tried to move over to like a headquarters unit so that I could like answer radios and just you know stay safe on Kandahar airfield and Paul got wind of it and and for the first time in

my life I had a strong male figure do something to where he actually showed me authenticity and vulnerability and he sat me down and there was this old area called Thunderdome over near where our kind of like makeshift hooch was and it was all this leftover like scrap metal and stuff and so soldiers would go in there and like beat the shit out of each other when they had issues so i was like oh no he's going to take me inside thunderdome and just beat my ass um but he sits me down on the bench outside of it and he just looks at me and he goes Hollywood i heard you ask to stay behind can you tell me why and like i couldn't even look at him and finally he He just, he goes, hey, you look at me real quick.

And he said, I want to let you know I'm scared to. And he said, his like daughter had just been born. And so, you know, he's in newlywed. And he's like, I'm worried every day that I'm not going to make it home. And my daughter's going to grow up an orphan without me. And he said, but, and I'll never forget this. He said, courage is doing the right thing even when you're afraid. And he said, tomorrow.

we're all going to get on that chopper together and we're all going to be afraid but we're all going to make it home together and then he just got up squeezed my shoulder and walked off and it gave me the courage and also the kick in the pants that I needed to step on that chopper and go out to the border with Pakistan that's great leadership that reminds me uh Chris Cappy was on here and he he was another reservist and he like was he went and saw the chaplain and said like I I can't go. I can't do this. I can't go to Iraq.

And the Chapman was like, hey, listen, think about it. Go home tonight. Think about it. You got this. But if you don't want to go, I'll take care of it. But think about what you're doing. And he went home and that night and thought about it. It's like, I can do this.

So just good leadership. Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned now you're in Afghanistan chapter eight. It's called Cowboys from Hell. Dude, I just love these titles. This is a, you know, early. Pantara song.

So you're in Afghanistan, your mission, your mission is we kind of already touched on it. Whether it's an infantry unit or special operations unit, they're going out in the field, they're going to break shit and you've got to put it back together or you've got to explain why shit got broken and figure out how you're going to get it fixed. How was your opt tempo?

It was high. You know, that's the thing I think a lot of people don't realize. Like, I was outside the wire every day. I did, you know, Mike Rlettland's Mike Drop podcast not too long ago. And he was like, how many days did you spend outside the wire? And I was like, oh, like, I think like 500 and something. And he was like, what? And I was like, yeah, I was just outside the wire every day, man.

Like, that's what I did. And so, because everybody needed a turp or we blew this thing up and these people need to be paid. or can you go talk to this village elder? And like that was the thing that I discovered very quickly. When I was in Afghanistan, I actually had a beard. It was freaking cool. I was like, I'm one of the cool guys now. And I would wear like the little scarf.

And I just wear a ball cap and go around. And it was the thing that, the reason that beards got popular in the special operations community, it just became cool guy lore. but originally it did serve a purpose. Like in Afghanistan, if you didn't have a beard, they considered you a male play thing. And so they thought it was hilarious that all these Americans always had these shaved faces

and they're like, oh, they're all man boy lovers and stuff like that. And out of that, like if you had a beard, they would come talk to you. I remember we had some general come in from Bogram and Gonson and I were out there, and they wouldn't even talk to them. They're like, this is general so-and-so,

and they're like, I want to talk to the guys with the beards. they can give me what I want. And so out of that, a lot of it was just, you know, in Afghanistan it's very tribal. And so you had the mullahs and the local warlords that you kind of had to appease and kind of work things out. And so the Americans, we wanted to build schools for girls. And the Taliban just kept blowing them up. And so we had to really work on like, this is why, you know, your women need to be educated,

kind of changing some thought. processes and stuff, working with local families, figuring out who the bad guys were. We discovered a lot of caches. I literally have a photo of me repelling into a cave from like the front of the Humvee. And I'm like in there with like a pistol. And I'm like, this is like some tunnel rat Vietnam shit here. I did not sign up for this. I was like yeah. And it was just, we found out it was just like places where like Afghans were going to hook up. So, you know, there's like a little cot down there and everything else. But yeah, it was pretty wild as far as everything in the Wild West. And a lot of times we would go on missions that were days long. Like, I remember the longest that I was

outside the wire was 21 days in Afghanistan. And you stink after that point. Like, you're like, your hands are black from just everything. I remember eating, you know, the lembus bread? I call it lembis bread and the MRE. It's like the soft cracker one, not the one that everybody tries to do the challenge with. I remember I'm eating this lembous bread and it's like stained black from my fingers and I'm like, yeah, fuck it. And I just kept going. It's just gross. Yeah. And so we would go outside the wire. We'd gather intelligence. We'd go to different areas, patrol presences and trying to to really figure out, like, during that time period, you know, where the Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters are coming from.

They're always coming from Pakistan. We knew exactly where Osama bin Laden was during that time period. It was, I mean, like, we knew the whole time. It was just a question of when we were going to take them out. I remember getting briefings on it. And we were in this, if you've ever seen the documentary Restrepo or you've seen the out-stranding, outpost. That's where my life was like, you had those bunkers and they would just attack the base. They just start loving artillery in 107 millimeter rockets. So we would get attacked like every

other day. And so out of that, it was just, it was kind of this, you were never safe anywhere. And you just kind of learned to live in that. And so it was like, I was outside the wire, but even inside the wire, things were just nutty. So that was kind of my life there. And then the same time, you know, you have to remember Afghanistan is the most heavily mined country on earth, left over from the Afghan Soviet War. So, like, there's just landmines freaking everywhere. And you're kind of dealing with that and like, do I walk here? Do I not walk here? And then the civilian populace will accidentally step on a landmine. They'll blow themselves up. We have to return the bodies to the families. So I'm dealing with, like, all this death and

kind of destruction. People start to die around me. And, uh, and I was, I was like, I guess this is it. I'm in it. This is war. Yeah, and just a little thing I wanted to mention, but I didn't say it at the time. But you were talking about how in this job of civil affairs, you've got to kind of understand the geopolitical, strategic world. But then when you're in the field, what you have to start to understand is the micro political situation that's going on between these different tribes. And that's what you have to go out there and calculate and learn and understand and talk.

and communicate with people and you know ask them questions and figure out what's happening and then you've got to take all these different elements and put it together and find out what's real and what's not so it's a really tough job and then on top of that and you mentioned in the book you're in a place that's nicknamed a rocket city you know this is sort of like crossed out the sign yeah when I arrive I'll never forget this to this day we we show up it's called Camp Harriman it's it's Oregon and then I was in Schen which was another small forward operating base before we, you know, called them cops and combat outposts. But so we're in the small forward operating base and we land and the chopper's going and I look and it says like, welcome to camp Harriman. Somebody had marked it out and put Rocket City. And so and then I walk in to the past the, the Hesco barriers for blast walls and everything. And there's these two, I'm guessing they're privates and they have their shirt off. And it's like the, movie Jarhead, they're stirring the shit in the, and they're burning. You wonder why we all have asthma and respiratory issues now, like burn pits. So we're all stirring our own shit with JPA-Jet

Jet Fuel, breathing in the fumes. And they're doing that. And one guy just leans over and vomits and the other guy points at him and laughs. And I'm like, is this my life now? So, yeah. Bro, that is a, that is an epic scene right there. You showing up. The names crossed out. It says Rocket City, you walk in, those two guys are burning shit. One of them pukes, the other one laughs at him. That is, that is, that is the life of an infantry man right there. That's freaking epic. Going to the book here real quick, we picked up a field grain officer.

We nicknamed Major Death Wish as a last minute edition. Our company had been lacking an officer for our team chief position, and they weren't about to let Gonzo, a young promotable sergeant run the team. Somehow, Death Wish had been hanging around Fort Bragg, looking to join a team headed overseas. No one asked why or inquired as to the reason. half of his paperwork was missing. They let that slide. We discovered those details in the first two weeks of arriving on base when members of his former unit halted an utter shock upon seeing him. We never called him death wish to his face, but always used proper military etiquette and

addressed him as sir. Behind his back, we saw him as the source of constant dysfunction and utter ruin. Death Wish earned his moniker from constant talk of death. Absurd, absurd claims of planning to kill the enemy fighters with his K-bar, an unbridled incompetence, which we believe, would lead us straight to the gates of the river sticks if he remained in charge. Just pointing it out, you know, there's, sometimes people think military leadership is all squared away, and it's not. And you guys had an officer that was not too squared away. Right.

Another thing that you're doing, and I forgot to mention this, but you know Chonka about in the book, feed them to the pigs. What's that from? That is a Parkway Drive song. Okay. Yeah. Parkway Drive is an Australian metal core band. Okay.

I didn't know them. That's why I didn't recognize it. Another thing that you're doing is when people get captured, when they come back to base, a lot of times the civil affairs people are either guarding them, but interrogating them. Again, correlating intelligence, putting it together. And one of the things you do is you talk about what those guys, what's going on with those guys? When the U.S. military sees men for terrorist activity, they were flex cuffed and burtelap bags placed over their head. What year is this? 2003, 2003.

So this is early on. This is when enhanced interrogation was still a thing. Cleared hot. Once they arrived at our combat outpost, they would be stripped naked, washed, doused with lie, and sometimes they have their beards shaved off. This was under the guise of keeping lice and disease from spreading, but it was more done out of malice.

Afterward, the men would be kept awake for three days while being fed a constant barrage of metal gangster rap and soundtracks of crying babies. There were beatings too on our small outpost and other fobs. Central Intelligence Agency contractors, Delta Force and other special operations soldiers ran cross-border operations. They were also on recon missions run by Tier 1, Group So Secretive I'd never even heard of them. They had co-names like Grey Fox in profit and played by their own rules. I was jealous.

They didn't have to put up with the big army bullshit. So any chance I had to load in the back of a Toyota Hylux with a group of operators Greenbraes, I would. I was probably a detriment to their mission most of the time, given that my special operations training was lackluster compared to their expertise. Still, the intelligence, Gonso and I could gather from locals through relationships and civil military operations went further when operators showed up with backpacks full of cash asking for informants. Thus, they would bring us along once a blue moon to pick our brains on dirty tribal leaders poised against U.S. operations. So this is what you're doing. This is what's happening. Yeah.

And it was interesting. Like they would. Like some of the, I remember some of the special activities guys would show up and they would just have backpacks full of cash. And they'd be like, okay, you know, who wants to. to tell us who's dirty and this, you can get like thousands of dollars. And the thing that they did not recognize, and this is where we came in, especially understanding their religion as well, too. Like, for the listeners here, you have to understand that geographically, the Sunnis outnumber the Shia Muslims six to one. And so that's why Saudi Arabia claims to be like

the center for all Islam. And you have to go back to the brain. break with Muhammad and I think it was Abu Baker, one of his sons or cousins or something like that. And then whereas like Iran is Persian and Shia and they control the Persian Gulf. So you have this split, but in Afghanistan, it's, you know, it's predominantly Muslim. So as opposed to Persian, even though they're close to like Iran. And within that, the culture in Afghanistan and like Middle Eastern culture is if you can pull a fast one on like a contract or your family or whatever, it's just good business. It's just the way that we do things. And so they would show up with these backpacks full of cash. And like some and uncle who has a grudge against like his brother or whatever

is like, yeah, that guy's a piece of shit. And next thing you know, that dude's getting pucked, uh, fuck is person under control. And, uh, thrown in the back of the high lucks. And we're like, yo, yeah, no, this is not how this works. Like they're, they're just telling you this. stuff. Let us work our mission and everything. And so we were able to get a lot more intelligence that was beneficial to the operators because of our understanding of what was going on during that time period and who the tribal warlords were, you know, what were the issues that they were facing, who actually controlled power and what was going on. But I think early on, they just figured cash would talk and it didn't really work that way. Yeah, that's something

that I think everybody had to learn. I know we hit a target one time, and this was in Iraq in, like, 03, and we know we get this target package. This guy's a financier. He's got a bunch of money. He's spreading around. He's causing attacks.

So we go hit his house and breach the door and roll the guy up in the middle of the night. And I go in there and I'm looking around. I'm like, well, this is a night. This guy is a serious financier because this is a lot of nice stuff in here. Not your normal, you know, it looked like a Western house pretty much. China and the silverware.

the whole nine yards and sure enough once I get back because you know you're doing it on a very tight timeline like hey we got this guy we got this intel go get him now and we get back and you know we start going through the intel that we because we take you know paperwork and stuff off the target and this guy oh well this is weird appears like he's a doctor huh okay what are the interrogator saying yeah they're saying that he's saying he's a doctor okay well that all lines up and so now I start going to the intel people like hey where did this intel come from and I start Pullman String and sure enough he had fired like a nanny. Like he had like a nanny and fired her and she was like, oh really?

Watch this. Then she went and told coalition forces and, you know, that this guy was a terrorist financier and sure enough, you know, we, you know, like, hey man, sorry. Here's a bunch of money. You know, we'll give you ride back out in town. This is terrible. That's, you know, so. We did the same thing.

Multiple times. We'd have to pay people just because like we had gotten bad intel. Yeah. Yeah. So be very careful. when you and there that wasn't the op that made me do it that was a uh we hit another target one time where there was a red you know we got the target package there's a red X on a building I'm like cool we go hit the target and we get in there and I'm like looking around like this does

not seem like bad people and you know even as a look you can't tell as well as a local can but when you go in a building you're like this seems very normal yeah and also uh insurgents they have a certain way of acting, at least 70% of the time they're like acting a certain way. And none of the people are, none of them are looking at mad dogging or they're all just looking scared and like, like they didn't do anything. And sure enough, you know, Terps are talking to them. Oh, you're looking for that guy? Two doors down.

Cool. So we go ahead. We get the bad guy come back and I start the same thing. Hey, where did this intel come from? Where did this intel come from? Oh, came from this person. Okay. Go to that person.

Where did this intel come from? And finally get down to, well, you know, oh, yeah, I'm the one that put the red X on that map okay cool what why why did you put the red exit and he was like oh it was the center of the area we were told that this person lived it was just the middle of the it was the middle of building and i was like cool i will never do another and that's when i never after that i never hit an op without like knowing where that intel came from specifically so these are lessons that you kind of had an indication of because you're doing civil affairs because they taught you some of the cultural things and you know even the special operations

guy just like me in the beginning of the war, we're just knuckleheads, you know, and we didn't put all that together. So good stuff. Um, now meanwhile, you're dealing with this guy, Death Wish. No, yeah. You say the first couple of missions with Death Wish were disaster. Uh, uh, and it just didn't look good. And every time he goes out, he's causing problems. He's getting jump. He's getting frantic. You two, you and Gonzo are trying to go out as often as you can so that you don't, so that they don't think everyone in your unit is a bunch of freaking knuckleheads. Yeah. incompetent.

Let's see. Gonzo was the first to notice our predicament. Oh, this is then you rolled. You're out on a mission. Yeah, you're out on a mission. You're walking. Gonzo's the first to notice our predicament. Don't freak out.

Okay, Hollywood. I scanned the horizon looking for enemy combatants and dropped to a knee. Gonzo sucked in a quick breath and exclaimed, don't move. I knew immediately we were in a minefield. Fuck man For real Gonzo nodded in reply Well this goes strictly against our don't die policy

I said trying to add some levity to this situation The don't die policy was something Gons would come up with When I expressed fear over dying And how we plan to make it home alive His response was simple Well then don't die Adopt that policy Not exactly helpful but it made me laugh

And became a running joke How'd you guys get out of that minefield? That's a tough story So I wanted to write a book that showed war in like all of its ugliness, the things that people do and people don't do. And I've gotten lit up a few times just because I was really honest. And it's funny because I've talked a lot to other friends. I was like, did you do stuff like this?

And they're like, oh, absolutely. I just wouldn't write about it because people would come after me. And one of the things that, so we're in the middle of this minefield. And so again, earlier I referenced that Afghanistan is the most heavily mine country on earth, especially during that time period. And so you have like all these leftover mines and whatnot. And so the locals, what they would do is they would stack rocks and paint them. And usually when you're above like the tree line area, which we were that day, you know, that's that's where they are.

So we're above the tree line where it's just all rocks and everything. And I turn around and I look and sure no, we're in a minefield. And I'm like, do we do like that scene in Rambo 3 where we're doing this? and our interpreter comes up in the way because we had scattered on ahead in front of the 10th Mountain guys. And he walks into the minefield and I'm like, hey man, come here. And so he just walks over to me. He hadn't noticed either. And he didn't even seem to care.

I think he noticed the rocks, but I was like waiting for him to step on one and just pink mist everywhere. And so it was a failure of leadership and everything on my behalf, you know. but I was, I didn't want to die. And you never know what you're going to do in a situation where you think you're going to legitimately die. And unfortunately, sometimes that can lead to some very poor decisions. And that was mine. But nothing happened. And I just, we watched him walk back out.

And then we just followed his footsteps. And then we immediately went to like the captain of this column and we're like, yo, there's a huge minefield up here. We got to be careful. And we need to take this area down. Because when we looked down, there was just rocks piled up everywhere. So there was, like, one lane that you could go through. And part of the problem was is we didn't know that this was, you know, is this setting up for an ambush or something?

Did they mark this area so that we would take this path? And so, you know, word starts to spread. And then our interpreter, we let them know, we're like, hey, you see all these mind fillers? It's like, oh, yeah, yeah. And the front of the column like halts. And this guy's like, you know, is. He's like almost if talking or breathing is going to set off something. And he's like, there's a fucking mine in front of us.

And so the whole column stops. And they're like, hey, you get your interpreter. You know, he's local and everything. And so we come up to the front. And that motherfucker, I'm not kidding you, walks up, picks up a mine and goes, this isn't a mine and throws it. And luckily, we discovered afterwards that the priming charge was missed. But it was a legit mine. Just fucking chunks of mine.

And that was the moment I was like, I probably deserve that for what I just did when I had him walk into the minefield. So. You used him as a mind clearance. Yeah. And like he was. And like people will make poor decisions and more. Like, you know, you hear about it even in the veteran community is just stuff

obviously going on with Benghazi and kind of the drama there. But nobody knows how they're going to act until they're actually in that situation. And so I was like. like, I'm not going to write it. I am going to write it. I'm not going to write it. I am going to write it. And when I initially was writing everything, I put Paul in a very, you know, Gonzo in a very nice light. And when he was reviewing the manuscript, he said, he goes, Sledge, you made me look too clean. And he's like, I have all my own flaws and skeletons too. And he said, you need to write me the way that I deserve to be written. Sure. Okay. So again, great leader because of that. Yeah. Yeah, that stuff, it stings to write. You know, it's the opening chapter of the book, Extreme Ownership is like horrible

blue-on-blue, friendly Iraqi soldier killed, one of my guys wounded, a few more Iraqi soldiers wounded, Fratricide. Like, yep, that's the opening chapter. That's me. It sucks to write, but if it gets the lessons across, then it's worth it. Yeah. Fast forward a little bit. Gonzo and I had been compiling evidence of death wishes, incompetence for a while.

the final straw came on patrol one afternoon. His usual brand of paranoia was in full effect, but this time he kept the muzzle of his weapon pointed near the back of my head while he drove over rocky terrain. I was panicked. He would flip his selector switch from safe to semi-automatic. With each bump over the harsh terrain,

I cringe waiting for a bullet to enter my brain. I suppose it would have at least been a quick death, but still killed by incompetence is hardly the story any parent wants to hear. The Army probably would have given me a slew of awards claiming I got out fighting. Um, and you guys basically present this up the chain of command.

And Gonzo, like sends you out to, uh, Schin. Yeah. To just in case there's any fallout or there's any chaos breaks out. Because it's a big deal, you know,

having a mutiny in the field is a big deal. It's a big deal. And it can have collateral damage. Um, luckily in this situation, there wasn't really any collateral damage. Um, and he got relieved of command. He did.

We effectively relieved him of command. They brought him back under the guise of like, hey, he needed to go back and draw these things called SERP funds, which is just more fun for reconstruction efforts. And we had a really, really phenomenal company commander. His nickname was Maximus. That was his call sign. And he looked like Winston Churchill and he would always chew on these cigars all day long. but he was he was very very very very competent company commander and when he reviewed everything he was like this guy's got to go and the reason that he had been hanging around at fort brag was

of his own incompetence and that like he just kind of like made paperwork disappear and then saw that this team needed a team later because they're on short supply of uh civil affairs officers and so they stuck him in and his team like they they they're They gave us the whole rundown as soon as we got there and we were like, uh-oh, we're in trouble. And so we just, we started compiling evidence. We got sworn statements from some of the infantry guys that we were close with that said, yes, he's a danger to the mission and everything. And when we compiled that and sent it up the chain of command that it was irrefutable at that point.

And so what's crazy though, let me tell you the crazy part of this story. This is not in the book. He ended up going to another civil affairs team, like a Bravo team that was there in Kandahar. ended up staying there, even after they went home, the Army had to go send somebody enforceably remove him from country. Damn. Yeah. That's freaking terrible.

Again, military leadership is not guaranteed to be squared away. No. Fast forward a little bit. The girls' school we'd help build with coalition forces was now a rubble heap. as I sifted through the debris, my eyes turned to observe Gonzo. He was conversing with a member of a Special Forces operational detachment Alpha team, ODA team. They'd been the ones to start the school project and we'd finished it shortly after our arrival. I waited for them to finish speaking, then stood.

I stepped consciously through the seared paper, charred desk bits and rock until I reached him. The whistle I let out before speaking was long. Got to be pretty damn demented to blow up a girl school. no bodies though so I guess that's good Gonzo surveyed the destruction looking at me my daughter's only a few months old you know that right sledge I nodded uncertain where the conversation was going

people back home don't understand the importance of the away game if we allow these ideologies to go unchecked then mark my words this will happen on American soil I nodded in approval but felt the weight of my hypocrisy what's your hypocrisy all about um I had, you know, you start to get jaded in war sometimes, and it's easy to start looking at everybody like the enemy, as opposed to human beings.

There's a reason, like if you've ever read the book on killing by Lieutenant Colonel Grossman or understand the psychology of killing, it's one of the things that they discovered was like during World War II, most people couldn't pull the trigger to kill another fellow human. And so the army and the military, like, revamped all of that. and so you start training and you begin to dehumanize people. So like you ask any infantry guy, you know, what makes the green grass grow? And it's blood, blood, the bright red blood makes the green grass grow. You know, what's the spirit of the bayonet to kill to kill with the cold blue steel? You know, why is the sky blue? Because God loves the infantry.

You know, stuff. Little trite sayings that we all know just repeatedly. I literally asked my brother like, you know, we've been out in the military. Just one day I sent him a text. Because I was like, hey, what makes the green grass grow? We thought it beat. Just bam. Oh, yeah.

And so you do, so you have these ways of training your soldiers to dehumanize people. It's, you know, in war, it's why we dehumanize, like, our opponents. Like, so, you know, you had the crouts. And they weren't the Germans. They were the crouts. You had the nips, which were the Japanese during World War II, which was literally off of Nippon, which was just a Japanese person. We did the same thing while we were in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We called them Hodges. And that was actually an Islamic term of endearment for somebody who made the Hodge to Mecca. But we were just like, oh, we'll turn it in a slur and just dehumanize all of them. And so we've done this. You know, you had Charlie, you had the Zips, all of it from Vietnam on. And the more that you're able to do that, the easier it is to kill another human being, as opposed to like actually seeing their humanity in front of them. And so I began to become desensitized by all the death and destruction that I was seeing around

me enough to where it even translated over to the kids. And I started being malicious to them and like kind of mean. And I realized that like I wasn't holding myself accountable. I had this hypocrisy to where, you know, oh, I'm supposed to be the good guy here, but I'm acting in ways where I'm the bad guy. And so Gonzo started, I think he saw it. But he wasn't one of those leaders who just like, knock it off, knock that shit off. Instead, he took the slow gradual approach and led by example.

And so when he would have these conversations with me, it would reinforce kind of that aspect and the responsibility. And what he was really doing was grooming me to become a non-commissioned officer. And so I began to see that own hypocrisy in my world. And I was like, you can't treat civilians. Like they just don't have a choice in the situation, especially kids, man. And so that was really where I saw the level of me just growing more and more jaded. And a lot of it had to do with a friend of mine had died, you know, in a firefight.

And I would go over to his hooch and stuff. And we'd hang out. And then, you know, he came in on the litter. And he was just gone, man. And that really jacked me up. And I was just like, he was here. Now he's not here. Now he's gone.

He was just, you know, that's it. And so I was just like. like the Afghans are the enemy. And what I had to recognize over time was that I was becoming the same way that the people I was fighting against were like the Taliban. And Gonzo was leading with the indirect approach. Like, hey, man, you know how my daughter is, right? Like he's letting you know, man, you can't. Without saying you can't think like this, which is going to, might make you defensive.

What are you talking about? They did this. but instead he's just taking that indirect approach, man, great leadership. Meanwhile, he's also great leadership. He's also starting to see that like you're getting a little frayed around the edges. And he gives you R&R in Qatar. And, you know, you were basically, you know, you're saying the book that it, you didn't recognize it at the time.

And it wasn't until you read with the old breed, which was written by your, what, great, great cousin, whatever. Yeah, yeah. E.B. Sledge, you know, and you quote his book with the old breed, you know, book that one of the earliest books we covered on this podcast was that book because it's one of the best books ever. To be under a barrage or prolonged shelling simply magnified all the terrible physical and emotional effects of one shell.

To me, artillery was an invention of hell, the onrushing whistle and scream a big steel package of destruction was the pinnacle of violent fury and the embodiment of pent up evil. It was the essence of violence and of man's inhumanity to man. I developed a passionate hatred for shells. To be killed by a bullet seems so clean and surgical, but shells would not only tear and rip the body, they tortured one's mind almost beyond the brink of sanity. After each shell, I was wrung out, limp, and exhausted.

I thought that was the most accurate depiction I had ever heard in the way that I felt was from my distant cousin, you know, and it's weird. All the sledges came from this one guy, Thomas Sledge, and then he had two sons, Daniel and John Sledge, who were American Revolutionary War heroes and their seven sons fought. And then we all kind of came down from there. And it's, it's funny when I was reading E.B.'s words, I was like, that's exactly how I feel. How did he know that? And, you know, with every rocket attack that came in, like, you would hear that whistle and that scream. And you would hear the impact and you would brace for it and you were

just waiting. And if there was like no whistle, that's when you're in trouble. Like, because that means, sorry, it's landing right on you. The videos of World War I guys that have shell shock, that's when you know it's a horror that you just can't comprehend those guys that they're just shaking uncontrolled. But they're perfectly physically fine, but they can't even walk because they're just that messed up. and they would like show them a military item like a hat like a military cover and like show it to them and they just completely freaking break down because anything related to the military made them think of getting shelled and so but even you know I think you know you talk about the book they basically had like every night they would rocket you guys around a certain time and like it shit wears on you um Gonzo eventually. So you go on leave,

Qatar, enjoy humanity for three days or whatever normal life for three days, four days. Yeah, it's got to be Tommy Boy's dad while I was there. Brian Denny, is that it? Oh, that's awesome. One who's in the original Rambo.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I had a beer with him while I was there. Nice. You come back from that. Actually, Gonzo goes on leave. Right. And while Gonzo's on leave, I'm going to go to the book here.

The deep divots in the wall accentuated the blood, It looked like a child had flung cans of paint across the room which was soaked in color. Bits of human remains coated the floor. A few victims had been decapitated and someone had strewn his organs along the streets. The entire police force, along with 20 other people, were dead. Gonzo had returned from leave and we'd been in a briefing with the command of members of the third special forces group when we got the word.

70 to 200 al-Qaeda Taliban and corrupt locals had launched an attack again. against the village of Burmell, Afghanistan. The report sounded like something out of a horror film, and I was certain it had been exaggerated. It wasn't. So this is just a massacre. Yeah. And you guys, did you guys go on scene to assess the situation?

What's weird is like, and I've learned about this in my work in mental health afterwards, it's like the brain does stuff to protect itself. And like my only memory still to this day is like pulling a human tooth out of the wall. but here's what so I wouldn't have even wrote about it had I not I kept a journal while was there because I was like if I die you know that at least people know what happened and so I still have my journal and I went back when I was writing the book and I was like this is crazy and sure enough like and originally I thought Gonzo was not there I thought he was on leave and then he read the chapter and he goes hey Sledge I was there too sure and I was like oh I was

like you remember it then he was like yeah I was one of the worst things I've ever experienced so um and you know I don't know about the reports and everything I just wrote what I had in my journal I was like 70 to 200 that sounds a little extreme but you know how sometimes intel comes in and they're like there were this many people and it could have been just like 20 dudes that went in and just wrecked this village and we had just we'd been doing reconstruction efforts and projects there and they just came in and killed everybody so you go and talk about the movie starship troopers and you know johnny riko how he's like gonna drop out a training but then he sees that his hometown of rio de janeiro has been totally destroyed by the aliens and uh he's getting interviewed

so this changes his mind he wants to stay in and he's getting interviewed and you say uh his only word to the journalists are i'm from buenos buenos ayros and i say kill them all after the burmell massacre i became johnny riko i stopped caring i stopped feeling i hardened I was Hollywood and I said, kill them all. Followed by the next chapter, which is called Symphony of Destruction. I thought about naming it Kill them all. Yeah, but I was like, that was close.

And there's a weird dynamic there because we got Killam All. We got the whole Metallica versus Megadeth, you know, drama between those two bands. But a little, you went with Symphony of Destruction. So that's what's going on. You know, you're conducting more operations. You're continuing with these, with this mission. And how long is this deep into deployment at this point? Oh, I don't know.

How long were you over there for? Nine months. Nine months. At some point, you get embedded reporters. Yeah. And they're embedded reporters from 60 minutes, Gonsa said, Cooley. Colonel gave us the staff a heads up the other day and reminded us to be on our best behavior. Any hijinks end up in the news and it'll be everyone's ass.

So try not to do anything dumb, okay? hit on her, exactly like that dumbass. Within a day, we met the mystery woman and man accompanying her. It was Laura Logan, the chief foreign correspondent for 60 minutes and her cameraman, Jeff Newton. Laura and Jeff began accompanying us on patrols as we spent most of our time outside the wire speaking of locals. So now you got freaking reporter there. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, Laura became a good friend of ours. And I haven't talked to her since really a long time ago, but Jeff and I still stay are close. We still talk to one another.

Yeah. So. I mean, I don't know her at all, but, you know, everybody that I've talked to her talked to about her said she was like just epic going out on patrols. She was legit. She got blown up while we were there. So she came back, got hit, hidden ID. And, well, it was a landmine, but bruise on her face, the whole nine yards. So she was, she was the real deal.

Yeah. how did your guys behavior change when she was around oh we we definitely were like you had to cool out your freaking no 14 year old maturity i didn't i have photos of her like kissing me on the cheek and stuff and i'm like you know and she spent i was like i'm going to become best friends with this person you know i was like bert crier i was like that's what i'm going to do i'm going to become best friends with her and she's going to like our team and that's what we did i kind of like sciopter and uh and she became friends with like our ETAC and because we were always close with the air force guys there our ETACs uh you know JTACs uh... alos stuff like that um the guys called in all the airstrikes

we were super close with those guys and we spent like most of our time with them in the evening christmas thanksgiving the whole nine yards and she was there during kind of like that the early like November to December time frame and then left like right before um you know i got injured but we yeah it was like us just being I don't know kind of adolescent boys with a crush you know gondo you know he was married I was single so I had a girlfriend back home but I was just you know I was like I'm gonna be that guy so so Hollywood was still alive during that was going strong yeah he was going strong um you just mentioned before I got injured I'm to go to the book December 10th 2003 the small window near our room exploded in a shower of glass. The wood panel I kept in front of the glass

landed at my feet with shards of glass peppering the floor. I stared at the shattered wood and glass for a few moments until the sirens went off. I scrambled and put my body armor on, thinking briefly that the cold December shrill, I might want to put on warmer clothes than my stained brown shirt and black shorts. Unwilling to take that gamble, I charged in the open air where I found a medic frantically working on a young Afghan boy with shrapnel his chest gasping for air. I hovered over both the boy and the medic, uncertain if I should, help the medic flick their large bore needle preparing to jam the syringe into the kid's chest i waited a moment longer watching the blood pool in the silt below the child's back and then found my feet and ran

when i arrived at the talk and pushed my way through the batwing doors gonzo was there to give me orders protect the locals gather intel and don't die little did i know that day would change everything I opened my mouth to ask for more information, but a loud short whistle screamed over the talk with just enough time for someone to yell. Incoming, I flinched while Gonzo stood tall, unimpressed by the attack. He pointed to the door and gave me my orders. You got this, Hollywood. Now move. The problem with war movies is they're sort of accurate.

Everyone's yelling and you're hyper aware of your own breath. Nobody has a clue what he's doing either. You make it up as you go, the muscle memory from training taking over. rounded the corner from the talk a short shriek, a shriek, sounded overhead. Before I had time to duck an explosion sent bits of shrapnel whizzing through the air. I slowed down and my body slammed against a wall, then covered my eyes against the waning sunlight.

The impact had hit the outer gate perimeter close to a bunker where the other soldiers had taken cover before I could move another rocket slammed into the bunker, sending shrapnel and debris into its walls. Then we pressed our bodies against the side of the building embraced for impact as another zip tore over our heads. The impact shook the building and above. Love me a voice rang out from the radio tower. Get me goddamn air support.

They're getting the talk. They're targeting the talk. Without a word, Max and I sprinted to the adjacent buildings and burst through the screen door. Once inside, we discovered most of the local Afghans huddled next to an oven in a corridor just to the right of the door. They're getting closer, spotter probably.

We should move into the kitchen area. Lopez jestered down the corridor and made his way into the crowd of Afghans, just as Max returned to the room, sipping a Dr. Pepper and grinning. jackpot he said take a sip I laughed once more standing with my back to the main entry just as I was about to turn and walk toward the kitchen hallway I thought I thought I heard the faintest whistle Then it went dark the great thing about our incoming artillery is that when you hear the whistle and the wush

You're far enough away from the impact the shorter the noise the better the chance you're in a kill zone When there's little to no noise you're dead in my case the rocket impacted a little over seven feet from my position. I poured my body into the wall for support and continued to wave off the scared Afghan man who's trying to help. The loud buzzing in my ears made it impossible to comprehend anything. In each verbal command I gave sounded like I was 10 feet underwater. Confused, I stared at my bare arms and saw they were peppered with flex of translucent black material. Absent mindedly, I rubbed at them, trying to move the strange material off my arms until I noticed trickles of blood forming on my hand. I stared dumbfounded, then glanced at the main door. The blast had blown out the

glass windows. I was rubbing broken glass and shrapnel into my arms. Almost whimsically, I began to take stock of my surroundings as the ringing continued. I glanced around the room a few times sluggish and still leaning against the wall. Then I realized I couldn't find Max. The only remnants of his presence were a Dr. Pepper can and splattered soda on the walls and floor. Feeling groggy in my head didn't help, which led me to conclude the shelling had vaporized him. Max, I yelled as I found my footing and grabbed my right ear. The buzzing was subsiding, but now throbbing grew more intense. Max, where are you?

Where the fuck are you? What the fuck was that? I moved toward the splattered soda and saw that the screen door separated our corridor from the main dining hut had been torn off the hinges. The screen netting hung limp. Inside the room, tables, and chairs were flung about as if a small child had been throwing a tantrum. Streaks of blood snaked across the floor.

It was reminiscent of a zombie flick where the undeads, dragged their bodies against the ground and leave bloody smears in their wake. My eyes traced the blood trail to a corner where I found Max. He was sheet white, rocking back and forth and holding his arm. I could tell he was mumbling something over and over, but with my own hearing muffled, I couldn't make it out. You hit, I yelled loudly as I rushed to his side. Max can continue to rock back and forth clutching his arm.

Arm, let me see. He shook his head in response, so I pressed. Let me see. He reluctantly released his arm and I saw the bloody mess above his sleeve. I mean would be cursed my elbow he said I think it's broken this was the phrase he would continue to repeat for the next several minutes Sometimes peppered with profanity Not wasting my time I pulled a black steel dagger from my body arm and sliced to open the sleeve above max elbow was a sloppy mess of muscle Tissue and fat the wound looked like a pop can had exploded in his tricep of one of the greatest gifts of my military the military can give you his muscle memory when you

Practice the same drills over and over instinct takes over. So I knew two things about our situation. One, Max was slipping into shock and two, I had to get him to a safe place and patch his wound. My many years of training kicked in and I put his other arm around my neck and began to lift him. We got to move. We're going to get blown up again. They got us zeroed, I told him. The panic in my eyes was evident as the red stain on Max's makeshift bandage spread.

His skin turned a sickly white and his breathing was labored. I was heaving under the weight of body armor and my hands continued to tremble. I was still trying to still the tremors. I clenched and unclenched my fists while staring into his glassy eyes. Next to me, Lopez crouched a look of concern and puzzlement on his face as he examined the wounded soldier. He abruptly stood, then pointed at the front door where Max and I had received the brunt of the Chinese-made artillery shell. We can reach triage that way. Get the medics?

My hands continued to tremble. I'd been in combat before. So why was the fear gripping me so intensely now? I gave into the cowardice eking its way through my body and directed Lopez. Your turn to get blown up, bro. I'll stay with Max. Lopez hesitated boots shuffling on the dusty floor. I imagined he was having the same psychological argument in his mind that I'd had.

Then he nodded and ran out the door. I continued to talk to Max, whose head lulled like a drunk's hoping medical aid would arrive. this time. Where was he hit? Where's he hit? Two medics entered the room, huffing and sweating despite the winter chill, Lopez and tow.

Before I could respond, they spotted the bandage and blood smears. Max's head lulled to the side while he went in and out of lucidity. He's going to die. He's going to die. He's going to fucking die. The record track in my mind was cruel as I loomed over my friend. In the distance, a low rumble began to build,

and each man's head perked up like a prairie dogs in response. Our salvation was at hand. helicopter the medics had already began packing their equipment we have to get him to the lz he has a medevac now and he needs it sledge shaken from the trance i ran to the room where we got to work creating a litter to carry max whose clammy skin made him look more like caspar the friendly ghost and humor last thing i told him before we carded him off was the same thing you tell every dying man you're going to be okay promise gonzo found me after i watched Max's helicopter fade to the dimming horizon.

I clutched absently at Max's rifle for a long time, the emptiness filling me. The base medic diagnosed me with a concussion, and once my hand swelled, he splinted the arm and requested another medevac. I protested and tried to argue that it was nothing more than a few bumps and bruises. They disagreed. I was to be sent to Kandahar. My tour of duty had ended. So that moment that you reflect back on a lot in the book is the moment where you tell Lopez, like, you guys need medics.

You're all in the same room. And he looks at you like, hey, get medics as if you, Ben, go and run and get us some medics while we're getting bombed. And you looked at him and said, it's your turn to take the freaking risk. You go. Yeah. And you know, when you reflect back on that, you feel like you were, you didn't be. behave the way you would have wanted to do in that moment. Yeah, human nature is this, you know, you're either going to fight, you're going to flee or you're going to freeze. And people freeze

up in combat. You know, I think one of the things that I really loved about the movie Warfare is they showed that. And I was like, it happens to the best of us. Like, you just don't know. And I had been in a couple of firefights before that. You know, I'd been shelled and I was fine. I knew, I knew what I was doing but like seeing your friend wounded and bleeding out and and initially you know i i was had that huge adrenaline dump and that's why i ran out the back door and i hit that wall and that wall was like the same wall that just shut me down mentally because we had erected this barrier for for blasts and uh you know i'm pounding on that wall just screaming and then i sprint back and that other rocket comes in, knocks me to the ground,

and that's when I burst through the door, and I'm just like, that's when, like, all the fear took me. And so I was like, I'll stay and patch him up. It's your turn to get destroyed, dude. And Lopez really was. He was the hero, man. You know, they put us both in for Army combination metals with valor devices, which the top brass in...

Bogum, air-conditioned talk. Yeah, fun fact. You know who downgraded him? Lloyd J. Austin. Damn. Yeah, dude. He signed my Purple Heart, but downgraded my R-com to just an Army accommodation medal. So it reads really funny. I have a friend who's a Black Hawk pilot because I live on the footsteps of Fort Carson. I'm on base. And he came in and I have my citations in my office and he was reading it. And he goes, oh, man. And I go, what's wrong? He goes, I have an R-com. And I was like, that's awesome, dude. What'd you do? And he goes, I just got it for flying a helicopter and doing my job.

And he was like, just so everybody knows, you can get an RCOM for like filling out the right supply forms. Right. You know, you can get an ARCOM for like, for, you know, doing good on the, on the uniform inspection. You can get an ARCOM. So the fact that you got an ARCOM for that and not an ARCOM with V is pretty freaking crazy. Yeah. I mean, it was, especially when you're getting a simultaneously getting a purple heart. Right.

That kind of indicates that you were in the show. shit, at least some level of the ship. The way that the citation reads is so ridiculous. Like, one of my Marine Corps buddies came over. He was in Ramadi with me. And, uh, and he goes, for meritorious service while getting injured, he was like, he was like, yeah, because they train you for that. Like, um, but yeah. So when I, when I froze up, I was just like, honestly, I, I think Lopez was the real hero in there. But I don't feel as bad as I do, about it now because like when the medics came in there, they were so frazzled. None of us could start an IV.

Their hands just kept shaking. And they just kept trying to approach and everything keeps blowing up and they're just, you know, every and I'm like, let me try and I can't do it. So finally, like once we had the nine line in, that's when, you know, and the kid, for those that are wondering, he survived too. He was on the deal and Max survived like, and Max and I are best friends to this day. Like he just moved back to Colorado. He finally retired out of the army.

He joined, uh, clandestine, like special operations unit out of the, out of the, out of J-Soc, joint special operations command. So that's not his real name, so don't go looking for him. Um, he has like no digital footprint either. Um, so he's, he's just one of those guys and we've, we've remained best friends to this day. Like, our goal in life is to eventually retire and then just work together at a brewery pouring beer for people. Like, that's, that's our goal.

Just like keep it chill. Just be those old war vets. They're just kind of salty, but like, like to talk to people at a brewery. Yeah. You got this, this buddy, uh, Kyle. Yeah. Who's, I guess his real name is Danton. Yeah, Danton Kyle Sight Singer.

He's a, got to be careful of this. He was a Marine. He's always a Marine, of course. He's always a Marine. but he served in the Marine Corps and then became a soldier. He's a friend of yours and he's a friend of the family. And so he ends up joining the reserves like you. And what,

you guys are both from Oklahoma. Yeah. So just give us, give me a little background on the connection between you two. So Kyle, I had met, he went by his middle name. I met him at my unit and he was larger than life too.

But he was one of those guys that was just infectious to be around. Everybody loved Kyle, like everybody. Even if he was just doing ridiculous jacked up stuff, they were like, oh, man, he's funny. He's a funny guy. And he's a fellow metalhead. You know, we get along great. He wants to be a journalist and an author. And so he's going to college for journalism.

And he had done like, covered the Miss America pageants down in like Panama and like everything. And so we become close and then he becomes close with my parents. And so he starts, I mean, even while I'm away at college in different places, like, he starts, like, coming over to visit my parents and he has his own key to our house. He'll just stay the night there. And my mom and my dad would always, like, cook salmon every time they would come in. That was, like, their signature dish all together. They all loved it, just like some, you know, some smoke salmon, grill it up. And the first thing that he would do when he would walk in the house.

Now, mind you, you know, my parents were like super religious while I was growing up. And they've since chilled out and they're awesome. Like, and we have such a great relationship. My mom and my dad and I, he would literally drop his pants and moon my mom the minute he walked in the door. And he had this like tattoo on his ass and everything. And my dad was just, would always just be like, oh, my God, Kyle. Like, but he'd slap his ass in front of my mom and be like, you like that, Debbie? And so he just, he became my mom's third son.

So she was just so, so, so close with him and, you know, had had her own relationship with them and just considered him part of the family. So we, we were just kind of like inseparable. And then I got injured. And so I spent my last month, because they had said, you can go home like your dead weight. And I was like, I'll do what I originally was going to do. I'll stay in the headquarters element in Kandahar and I'll answer phones like radios. And I was carton interpreters around and that was really difficult because my right arm was

broken and they had they had cast it. And so it was like this where I was doing a thumbs up like I was the Fonz the whole time. I'm like, hey, you know. But, you know, the Hyluxes over there have, you know, the driver's side on the right side and it's a stick shift. So I'm like my arm's broken. I'm like trying to stick shift and do this. like having to like move these interpreters around. And so I ended up staying and then Kyle came to replace us because we were getting replaced by we're doing left seat, right seat with

guys from our unit. And so he had actually been on stop loss because, you know, at that time period, you have a two front war going on. They need soldiers that are highly specialized in specific areas. So you can't even leave if you're going to get out. So he had wanted to go over the Navy and do journalism. But he got stop. found out like, hey, you're going to Afghanistan. And so he comes in to replace my team. And you guys actually see each other in Kandahar. Yeah.

I'm going to go to the book here. Kyle turned to face me, as usual, playful demeanor gone, searching my face for answers. I'm just worried about dying and leaving my family to deal with the wreckage. I knew the feeling, but in war it served no purpose. Now was time to shoot him straight. He needed the truth. You're dead anyways.

I responded with cold, calculated precision. it was Kyle's turn to frown, but I continued undeterred by his countenance. The minute you walked into theater, you became a dead man walking. There are no guarantees in combat. You're always one rocket or bullet away from a dirt nap. The trick is convincing yourself that you're already dead so that every day you wake up breathing, it's a gift. Dead men have nothing to fear, so the sooner you make your peace with death, the faster you'll be able to do your job. Despite the truth of these words, I've regretted them every single day of my life since.

I wish I hug Kyle and said something comforting like, bro, you got this. Maybe you'll even get to see Tina Turner while you're out here. I wish I told him that he was my best friend and that I loved him, but I didn't. Instead, my last words to one of my best friends were nothing more than to prepare for his demise and not be a pussy about it. The next morning he would board a helicopter out to the border areas, and I'd be in a C-130 military transport headed for Fort Port Bearfield. I got word while at Fort Bragg. I'd been on the phone with my mom when Kyle's dad called her. Once she switched back over, there was only wailing.

It was eerily similar to the noise the old man in the mountains had made when we killed his teenage son. Between sobs, my mom choked out. Kyle's dead. So you get home and that's what you get home to. Yeah. Yeah, it's brutal. Tore his family apart. yeah my mom and I we we still you know we every Memorial Day we'll we'll drink a beer and

his favorite beer was Corona so like we would just drink a Corona with him and an honor of him but the last thing that he gave my mom is this stupid fresco painting from Panama when he was covering the Miss America pageant and he told my mom he's like you got to keep this for forever because you'll remember me by it and she's like cow this is ugly this is disgusting i'm never going to keep it well now it's like probably displayed in the house and it looks weird and out of place but um it was it was really tough on our family tough on his family i had to present his awards to his parents um i mean it it was it was rough really rough and i blame myself you know I was like it should have been me.

You know, I was the guy that got injured. He was there a week. And we all know the statistics like in the military. The first, you know, 90 in the last 90. That's when you're most likely to get killed. It's either because you're fresh and new or you get complacent at the end. And, man, I really, really struggled after I got home. And that's just like when my mental health deteriorated.

And I was like my, so I was like, I come back home, and this is the crazy part. So when I was going to college and doing the whole reserve thing and everything, I had dropped out of college at three times now at this point. So I drop out to go to the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center in school. I get back. I'm home for three months. I get orders for Defense Language Institute out in Monterey, Bay, California.

So I have to drop out again. I come back home. I'm home for three months. That's when I'm in South Padre Islands. Like, you're going to Afghanistan. So finally I'm like, I got to do something. And my parents are like, why don't you take a semester off or whatever, you know, deal with Kyle's death. And I'm like, no, I got to go back to school.

I got to do something normal. I got to put this behind me. And it just, you know, it comes to ahead. So, you know, you're partying in college and then suddenly you're partying to bury your friend's loss. You're parting to bury what you've seen. You're parting to just quell all those images and demons inside your head. And it just got to the point where it got worse and worse and worse and eventually like kicked in my girlfriend's door one night, threatening everybody. My roommate finally like tackles me, pulls me to the ground and the next day my parents, my friends, my fraternity brothers and my girlfriend and her friends are sitting in the living room when I wake up and they have staged an intervention.

And I'm like, I fucked up bad. Was did they send you to rehab? Or what was the intervention just like get your shit together? Yeah, it was to get your shit together. They're like, you need counseling. Like,

you got to go to counseling. I was like, real men don't do counseling, you know. And I realized at that point, like I was hurting everybody that I love because I wasn't dealing with what had happened overseas. You know,

I'm, I'm 22. Like, and I, you know, people had started calling me hero and I felt like it is coward. And I'm, blaming myself and like my friend's dead.

Yeah. And you're in the reserve. So you're not, you're just around a bunch of civilians. I'm just around a bunch of, I don't have the dudes that I was with overseas to like kind of process. And, you know, we have her drill weekends and stuff. And, and we're training and doing more for war and whatnot. But I, and I didn't want to talk to them about it because I was like, I'm going to

lose my security clearance. This is going to be an issue. You know, they're not struggling. Probably not. And finally they were like, we need. You need you to start doing counseling. Yeah, you have a good, well, I hate to call it a good line, but it's a good couple lines in the book. You say, I rationalize that if I could leave the war behind, I could get on with my life.

But the war was not done with me. And that's when you go into this kind of just disaster zone of freaking percassette and booze and the whole nine yards. Yeah. It's so loft. Opioids, the whole nine yards. I mean, it's. Oh, yeah. Nobody knew like this was at this was before you know the opioid epidemic and so I I would literally just take my

my army paperwork about how I got injured in combat and I was like you know I'm hurt I have shrapnel wounds and my you know TVI or whatever the pharmacist is doing you a huge favor yeah he got you bro got you yeah like and they're just giving me drugs and I and when that ran out I just started buying from people on campus man like straight up addict um and had to quit because, like, they eventually put me on, you know, SSRIs for post-traumatic stress. And the thing is, though, that I realize, like, everybody wants to label everything like post-traumatic stress. And we do this weird thing, like, in the military, where it's not that.

Post-traumatic stress is a, it's a stimuli based on a traumatic incident. So, you know, women, the traditional thing you've always been. heard about women who are raped in a dark alley don't want to go down a dark alley. You know, vets don't like being around fireworks if it sounds like, you know. And so you do these things called exposure stimuli is one of the ways that you can overcome post-traumatic stress. It's small incremental, you know, exposure to whatever that traumatic incident was. And now you have people getting out of the military who've never served a day in combat and they're getting labeled with post-traumatic stress. And I'm like, do I know so many in like Colorado Springs. I was like,

this is ridiculous. And what they're really dealing with is transition disorders. And it's because they had everything, that cohesive camaraderie, the brotherhood, the sisterhood in the military to where they had somebody who had their six. You know, they've always got their back. They know exactly what they're doing day in and day out. Then they go into the corporate world. And instead of people having their back, their coworkers are trying to, you know, get ahead of them. And then the CEO is trying to make as much profits as possible. And it's everything antithetical to the military and they start to struggle. And so they're like, oh, I have post-traumatic stress.

And I'm like, that doesn't make sense. But for a lot of combat veterans, what I've discovered is we deal with what's called moral injury. And that's the psychological damage and shame that occurs when you have to do things that violate your sense of right and wrong. And it's everything you see in a, you know, large-scale combat operation, dead people shooting a woman or child, you know, that has like a suicide vest on or something of that nature. it's, you know, having to pull the trigger yourself, like, and reconcile your humanity after that. And so we live with the consequences of those actions. And so the VA and other people started labeling it complex post-traumatic stress disorder. I'm like, that's not it.

It's moral injury. And so even though I went in for post-traumatic stress counseling, what I was really dealing with was moral injury. You know, Kyle's death, what I had done overseas, what I had seen, the choices of my action. actions like leading that interpreter into that minefield like that's moral injury I did things that violated my sense of right and wrong and so I met with a counselor there and started going weekly and it was and it was good and but I didn't feel like I could be fully honest so I didn't really fully heal and then like the strangest thing happened and I'm sure you know this feeling you start to miss war well luckily for you the good old United States of America

America had more for more more more oh man had 20 years of it maybe gonzo yeah gonzor rolled up and you're like hey dude he's like hey we can go to iraq takes him all of three minutes to convince you or whatever that hey we can make this happen and um i still can't believe i did that sure enough yeah here you are in the condition that you're in what will help me out is uh more war yeah um so you guys show up and of course you show up in romadi fast forward a little bit everyone calls it the meat grinder lance corporal's Zachary Borely told us, we had an IED on our first mission out. Wegener and I glanced at each other with eyebrows raised. Route Michigan was the major thoroughfare in Ramadi, and it was loaded with IEDs. In fact, six to 10 kilometer stretch that ran through Ramadi was the most IED in all of Iraq when we arrived. That's always reassuring.

You remember that? Like, we was just permanently black. Do I remember it? Yes. I remember it. It's just like a seven to ten ideas a day. And actually one time I went down Route Michigan, I was in a Buffalo, like one of the mind-resistant vehicles. And I, you know, I was just a passenger.

So I'm like in the back. And it's huge. And it's massively like mind-resistant. And there's white lights. They're just looking at the ground. But it was the cool. It was the weirdest thing because it was the only, you know, when you're in a Humvee, you're freaking scared shitless and you're freaking looking out the windows. And you're like, wait, and people get blown up.

up and you can't really see that well because you're you know you're hunkered down your night vision sucks so here we are going three miles an hour down route michigan white lights on and it was just such a trip but it was but as you but what i remember about it is there's just freaking crater holes like everywhere and you know seven to 10 iEDs a day so yeah do i remember it yeah i think whoever's it. I just can't believe they got blown up in a bucket truck. They just put sandbags in. Like that's the dumbest thing.

Marines would do some crazy stuff sometimes. They're like, just go out and draw fire. And I was like, that's a terrible idea. Yeah. We had one of those trucks too. Like, you know,

everyone thinks the seals being all high speed. Yeah, one of our insertion vehicles was the freaking seven ton with sandbag floors and whatever, half inch steel on the sides. That was it. Yeah. Terrible protection from someone tossed.

Like no one ever tossed a grenade in there, but that would have been freaking horrible if someone did. But yeah, that's like where you're at. That's what we got. That's what we're doing. You got to take a bunch of jundies out to hit a target. Well,

we only have so many humvees. Okay, cool. Or we're going out with jundies to a target. They're taking a seven ton. Guess who's getting in the back of the seven ton with them? Like I was looking at some of old pictures the other day. I saw some of the guys from my task unit. Like just it,

you know, probably three seals in the back of a seven ton with whatever, 32 freaking junnies. And I'm like, yeah, that's just getting some. You know, again, everyone thinks the seals are just out there doing all this high-speed stuff. It's like, no, this is called counterinsurgency operations and foreign internal defense and training up the Iraqi army soldiers to be able to handle violence in their country.

And there's three of my guys in the back of a seven-ton rolling out in the Malab district to get some. So, yeah. Yeah. Fast forward a little bit. Story and Borley were two of the Civil Affairs Marines. We'd begun working alongside when we landed in Ramadi. They, however, went by CAG, which stood for Civil Affairs Group, which we found confusing

because CAG also stood for Combat Applications Group, which is the Tier 1 element from the Army. In pop-up culture, CAG is more commonly known as Delta Force. To differentiate themselves, the Marines adopted a call sign Berserker and painted the Norse gods, Thor and Odin in each of their vehicles. this would become our call sign as well as we'd form as we integrated with the team. So you guys went embedded with these Marines. Yeah, yeah. We worked a lot with the Marines.

Like I mean, that's why I have a Marine Corps tattoo. It's one of my combat patches. But I love Jarheads, man. They were, they were awesome. They're awesome. I'm still close with Borley and Story. You know, you just had Scott Husing on here. He was one of the commanders for a clearing operation that I did and I worked with 2-4.

That's when we were out for. Christmas and that was just a wild time. But yeah, like I'm I have so much respect for those guys and just the the Marine Corps. And I'm actually a life member now, the 2-4 Association. They were like, oh yeah, you can join because you were with us in Ramadi. I was like, okay, cool, I guess. Does that mean I eat crans now? Well, you got the tattoo. So I mean, what up? And again, it's going, Now you're in a very urban environment in Ramadi. It's a city. You end up working with the various, you know, various,

because you can get called out at any time. You know, this is one of the, like, being in a situation like you're in where you have interpreters, you have a skill set that other people don't have in their battalions or companies inherently. So when someone needs an interpreter or someone accidentally freaking, you know,

blows up a wall or purposely, blows up a wall, but then they realize, oh, now the wall's got to get fixed. You know, who are we going to call? Or a civilian gets wounded. Who are we going to call? And so that's what you guys, you guys become like the ambulance, you know, 911 for whenever there's an issue out in the city. And this puts you in the field all the time. Yeah. And I mean, we just ran missions every single day. So we would have to go, you know, with infantry line units because they would need us. So we would just get the briefings. We'd have to put in the frequency hops the night before, get everything ready to go.

I mean, we were staged every single day. And I didn't think anything was out of the ordinary for that because I was like, oh, this is my job. And until I, like, got home and people were like, how many days did you spend outside the wire? And I was like, that was dumb. I was like, I picked the wrong job. You have like a whole section where you're talking about Romadi, what it was like.

And I'm just going to like read some highlights, war zone, sewage, trash, bullet. holes, pockmarks, explosions, IEDs, snipers. That's Ramadi, fear and adrenaline, right? That's what you're dealing with. And, you know, when you start talking, again, you mentioned this earlier in Afghanistan that you talk about the civilian populace, there's like 300,000 civilians in the city of Ramadi. There is a government and there's a government that's trying to function.

there are the tribal sheiks that are, you know, some of them had fled. Some of them, like I think eight of them had been murdered. Yeah. So, but there was some of them were now trying to step up, especially in the time frame that you're there. They're starting to step up and they're starting to get their people trained. But it is, there's a lot of friction and there's a lot of problems that can ensue. You know, if you're out, if a civilian gets killed, it is like a nightmare.

Yeah. It's a setback for the strategic, you know, goals that we have. it's it's the local populace like they would come to the gate and if when civilians got killed they would come to the gate and like protest it's oh i remember that i had forgotten about yeah yeah so it's like a severe situation and yet you're the guys that are the ones that have to go out there and mop it up if it happens i don't know if you guys had to deal with that all the time we we i think the worst things that and this goes back to moral injury is uh we had to pay families for their kids that it got killed like hey sorry we accidentally killed your kids here's 10 grand like how do you live with that so yeah it's it's just awful um and that's one of the you know that's one of the I've I always tell people like oh if you think you're going to go to war if you think you want to go to war you better recognize that Americans are going to die and enemy are going to die and civilians are going to die and anybody that thinks it can be so

surgical that no civilians and look America goes through the the most extreme efforts to prevent civilian casualties I mean it's it's it's awe inspiring to see the efforts that that get made to make sure that no civilians get killed. Correct. But civilians are going to get killed. They are going to die. And it's awful. And, you know, that's one of the things like you mentioned,

that's one of the things that it's just unavoidable in these scenarios. And you guys are the ones that have to go out and try and, you know, like you said, it's a reimbursement, which again, that does sound cold to Americans. It sounds colder than it, than it is for them. for them, it's like that's part of the way the culture works. Like, oh, yeah, we get this. Doesn't make it any easier. Fast forward a little bit.

I got to mention this guy, First Sergeant John Batista, because he sounded like he was just a stud. Yeah, he's cool, dude. That's not his real name, but... Oh, okay, cool. Then you say, another soldier I came to respect to admire was Captain Travis Patrick Grin. former Special Force Soldry became the Civil Military Operations Officer First Brigade, First Armored Division,

that oversaw all of Ramadi, the Marines, and TF-177. Having a fellow soldier who understood Civil Affairs mission so well, made our jobs easier, and I had the honor of attending a hilarious brief in which he used PowerPoint size, full of stick people to teach the command staff how they could win in Al-Lambor province. I've talked about this a bunch on the podcast with basically with everyone that's been to Romadi. everyone knew Travis. Travis Patrick Quinn's plan was simple. Win over the local sheikhs, recruit his men to the Iraqi police, dump money into civilian military projects that benefit the community by hiring local contractors, get water and electricity

restored while giving credit to the shakes, then sit back and watch the area become pacified. That was the goal. Again, that's why it's so important to protect the civilian populace because you've got these shakes that are trying to convince their men to join with the coalition. If you accidentally kill a civilian, like they are not going to come. on your side. So that's, you know, shows the insight and the strategic insight that Travis Patrickan had and those efforts to make Ramadi become pacified. And then you say in the book, he'd just never lived to see it. Patricklin, along with two others died when his vehicle

was here with a series of daisy-chained IEDs creating catastrophic explosion. When the, when we arrived the following day, the char marks crater and remnants of the vehicle told the story, no survival. survivors, Wegener was the most incensed driving down a road loaded with IDs in the middle of the day for a fucking photo op with Ollie North. And that's a little backstory. I didn't mention it. But the backstory was it was, Ollie North was there, you know, doing a new story. And they were driving down to Cop Falcon. Yep. On route sunset. Um, and then you say, I believe Patrick Quinn's death helped fuel the onbar awakening. And what you, what you believe has been confirmed. Like, uh, Other people have come on the podcast explain that when that happened, like he was so popular with the shakes that they were like, oh, we're not putting up with this anymore. Yeah, they're like, we gotta go kill everyone.

A huge piece. I remember Sheikhsatar was so pissed. Yeah. Yeah. The local shakes became furious about the death that they began exacting vengeance against the insurgency. Having these new allies prompted the change we needed, but before things got better, they got far worse.

Little did I know we'd be fighting for our lives in the middle of what history now. refers to as the Battle of Ramadi Travis Patrick Quinn Megan McClung who's I think she's the senior Marine Corps officer that was killed in Iraq and then specialists Vincent Pomonte who I think he was one of uh he was one of the drivers he was one of the drivers he was one of he was one of Colonel McFarland's PSD I'm pretty sure and he was on loan so that was December 6 2006 freaking outstanding outstanding people and of course the war doesn't stop. Like these things happen and you're going to go back in the field and that's what's going on.

And you just mentioned that we had Major Scott Houston on the podcast and you got a section in here about about Marines from Echo Company, second battalion, fourth Marine regiment would assist in the blitz to route the insurgents strongholds and reclaim the city. That's out to meme. And you describe him as a Marine officer with a chiseled jaw. You can't see it now because He's got that giant beard and his hair's all long. And I'm like, bro, how are you keeping your hair? The rest of us are all losing it. Yeah, it's, it's awesome the way you perceived him too.

I found he was interested in learning from those who'd been in Ramadi and extensively patrolled the areas we'd be clearing. Thus far, any positive interaction with a Marine officer at command level had been not existent. His candor and willingness to learn were the marks of a seasoned officer. He listened intently and asked questions as we briefed him on the area, the locals, choke points and buildings to target. We wanted to ensure he understood the danger of the mess we've been walking into.

And there's a reason I'm calling that out because that doesn't always happen. And sometimes people roll into an area of operations and they think, oh, you don't know anything. Well, I've been here for four months, six months, nine months. I might know a little. Yeah, but I have experience too wherever I was. So it's awesome to see that kind of humility that you saw. He just stood out to me all those years even later. and it was funny that we reconnected and have just become even closer, you know, now.

And work on a business now called Solid Copy Media where we do book writing services and book coaching for, you know, military veterans, government executives, first responders who want to tell their story because it's like less than 1% of us. And those stories need to be told. And so we just want to help our fellow veterans. but like having Scott to do all that. I just, and like I wrote that before like we ever reconnected because he, he stood out so much in my mind. When did you arrive in Ramadi? October 06.

Yeah. I left October 21st, 2006. So we were just like, yeah, so we just missed each other. Because team five took over and were you guys in full metal jacket at Craigador? I had an element of guys in full metal jacket at Gregor. So yeah, we had, we, we, we, we. we were the guys that set that up. Okay.

For the SEALs. The SEALs prior to me, the task unit prior to us didn't have guys permanently over there. And then I put people guys permanently over there. And then the Team 5 guys just came right in on our footprint. So they put guys in Corregor and guys on Camper Modi. So fun story. I have a theory.

And if you can prove me, were you guys listen? You remember how in warfare it starts out with a call on me video and everybody's where you guys listen to that before? Like, because here's what happened from my perspective. This is crazy. Let's go.

I'll ask the guys because I know. Yeah. So here's what happened. So prior to us deploying, my brother had showed me the call on me video. And I know it was like kind of rampant during the GWAT era. But we would play it to get hyped up for everything. So we just every day. And so and I want to tell this story a little bit later.

So make sure you ask me about it. It's not in the book. But it's about some of the men that were part of my unit that. And I, their stories deserve to be told because they're hero. But we had this private and I'm sure you know this. There are there are soldiers and sailors and Marines and airmen that are terrible in garrisoned, stateside. But you get them overseas and they're fantastic. Oh yeah.

We have a thing for that. We call break glass in case of war. You know, like there's a guy you got to keep them in a glass like jar because when you're out on, you know, liberty, you take him out drinking. Like there's going to be fights. There's going to be problem. There's going to be mayhem. And so you got to keep him like apart from normal civilians. But then in war, this is the 100% guy you want.

Yeah. So we had a guy like that. His name is Dustin Hahn. He was private first class Dustin Hahn. And we nicknamed him the retarded monkey. So like terrible soldier stateside, phenomenal soldier in war, one of the best. So anyway, you know, we had taken him under our wing and our leadership. He was part of Gonzo's teams because Gonzo, you know, goes back to Ramadi.

he ends up at full metal jacket and Camp Craigador. But so they would play. So Gonzo and Han, Han just before every mission would play the call on me video or they would come back from a really bad one when people got shot. He's playing the columnie video. Well, the CA team was in full metal jacket

and the seals lived right above the CA team. So Team 5 came in and they were blasting that stuff all the time. And then those guys would go on the roof with like the snipers from 1-2-6 and everywhere and they all smoke cigars. And so part of me, was like, did they get that video from us, like to get hyped up before their mission? So I want to know.

I want to know, SEAL Team 5. I'll check with those guys. Yeah. Did you steal it from the CA guys? I'll check with them. I actually like kind of recognize the song, but I never, I never like listened to it on deployment. Okay. Yeah, we were always jamming that.

So it makes me, I'm just, I'm curious. But yeah, so the, the Craigador, the whole, the Malab and everything, that was not my. Were you spending the whole time? You spent your time in Western. Yeah, I was at copseal. Got it. Check. And then,

but Gonzo and his crew was over in Corregador? Yeah. I mean, you knew how the city was. It was just violent. So we had to take over like different cops. So our civil affairs teams, we work in four-man teams.

We would, we had certain aspects of the city that we had to control. And so be embedded with the infantry line units. So I was with Task Force 117. You know, 1-26 was there, Bushmaster, 118. So I worked a lot with First Infantry Division. And then SEAL Team 5 obviously had an element at Shark Base that we were working with as well, too. And then I think it was second Ranger bat was at Shark Base as well, too, that we worked with.

There you go. Did you want to tell that story about the guys in your unit that you were talking about that were herelic dudes? What's that about? Yeah. Yeah, so that's during Operation Murphy's Borough. There's a section in there about Gonzo when we lose private Luis Kim. Oh, yeah. I actually do have that thing highlighted, I believe.

Yeah. So we can talk about that, but this one's, so this is the same night. So Han, the guy, the break glass in case of war and another lieutenant, first lieutenant Ashworth. We were so low on civil affairs soldiers that they were. just putting, you're not supposed to have lie lieutenants in commanders' positions, but we were so low during the GWAT that they were like, first lieutenant promotable is fine. So we had a bunch of lieutenants that were, you know, the head of our four-man team, and then you had a platoon sergeant,

I'm a platoon sergeant at this time. Then you have usually like another sergeant and then like a corporal or private. So they, this is during the last engagement during the battle of Ramadi, which is Operation Murphy's Borough. And it's when they're going to clear the Malab district. And I'm sure you remember that area that worked like as a demarcation zone kind of near Eagles nest where like the insurgents just controlled everything and you just didn't go past that point because you'd be shot dead. So it's, it's that point that they're like, it's time to clear out. And so the CA team goes out at night. You know, we've all got it, they've got their NVGs and everything else. And they're with an infantry line unit from second ID. And,

they go into this target house and they're like, you know, ask around and get everything. And they're like, no, nobody's here. So they're questioning. And finally the guy stops him before they're about to leave. And he goes, hey, look, I don't want to get involved in this. He said, but there's IEDs all along these walls. Like, if you go out there, you're going to die. So Han and Ashworth, they go tell the company commander of this infantry line unit, he doesn't

listen. And they continue down. And they're also with the Iraqi army at this point. the IDs of course go off in the wall and it's it's catastrophic casualties so they then they start taking fire so Han starts just picking dudes up and Ashworth same thing too some of the infantry guys freeze up and they in addition to the company commander and so Han looks at Ashworth his first lieutenant goes you got to take over he's just like he's all froze up and so they start grabbing the injured they pull him inside this target house they start patching a month

up. And so, and they're, they're patching up all these Iraqi army guys. And one of the guys have been left out in the street. So Han runs under fire. And this dude's legs have been blown off. And he grabs it. Another explosion goes off and it knocks him forward. And he hears just a loud crack in his back as he's carrying this guy. And we think he might have broke his back based on, you know, his chiropractic stuff now. He had to, after this event, he had to sleep this way, like bent over. his bed because his back was so messed up. But he, he gets in. He's like having a pinch off femoral arteries with his fingers, throwing tourniquets on. They're just, you know, medevac in every, uh, everyone that they can get. They finally get a Bradley in. There's three,

there's three bradlies that get blown up trying to get them, uh, trying to get the injured out. They end up, um, getting, um, getting the, the wounded. He thinks this guy with both of his legs blown off is not going to make it. That guy ends up surviving, and it's an Iraqi guy, and they host this, like, event for Han afterwards for saving his life. But when the Bradley's come, they can't extract them. So they have to do a Mogadishu mile back to Camp Corregador under fire, and they all make it.

And I'm like, dude, that is, like, heroism on a level that you just, like, that's a 19-year-old. old kid right there that just break glass in case of war and just takes over, runs out under fire, strapping turnicets on, doing his combat lifesaver stuff. And when I think about like, you know, we make fun a lot of younger generations. I'm like, man, I've served with men who have more courage in their bones at 18 than some guys I know in 50. And what they can do under that pressure is amazing. And so I love telling those stories because, you know, war isn't. about me, it's about the people you go to war with and what they've done. And so just to get to

honor them in that way and have their stories told because, you know, you have to, in the editing process, you have to cut stuff out. That's the way it works. And so I was like, man, and so he got a bronze star with valor for that. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's a good point of that story that you just told and you also mentioned the movie warfare and one thing that was what they did in warfare is you have no context of what's happening this freaking guys go out total insanity and then they go back and you get the feeling like that wasn't just another day and that's the feeling you're supposed to have because your friend hon was in the exact same shit if not worse maybe a little better maybe a little worse who knows but that was another day in remod

and that's what was happening. Heroic, heroic courage was just shown on a daily basis by so many of our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines. It was, it was a total war zone. Yeah.

And I think about that often where, you know, I'm just in awe of the fact that what people did during that time period and just the intense bravery that I saw and the men and women that were still, station there. It's it's phenomenal. Also challenging. I'm going to go to the book here. I

peered through the scope once my eyes adjusted my heart sank waddling down the alleyway in a yellow dress holding munitions was a six-year-old girl who liked to give me flowers. You can shoot her, Batista said technically. I didn't know the little girl's name nor did anyone on the team. So we just called her to the flower girl. She would hang around the copseal while we conducted civil military operations. Most everyone on the outpost had interacted with her as she was all smiles, laughter, and cheer. Between the candy, hugs and attention, she was a frequent visitor, often reminding other soldiers of their children back home. In return for gifts we gave her, she'd pick us flowers. I'd kept a yellow daisy in the pouch of my chest rig for weeks because I was

so touched by her gesture. Inside me, every motion roiled, and I stood paralyzed cross hairs hovering over the small child. Batista continued. They do this, you know, using children to ferry explosives or ammunition. The rules of engagement were clear. She was now considered an enemy combatant. Plus, she was moving toward the black smoke plumes where our forces were engaged. Wagner and Starns might be in a firefight losing.

What would happen if I let her go? My finger hovered over the trigger. Batista continued to watch me with intense curiosity. Inside my skull, angels and demons raged. Shoot her, you pussy. She's innocent. This will haunt you forever. What if Wagner and Starns die?

It'll be your fault. Don't do this. She's a child. Slowly, I removed my finger from the trigger, stepped back from the edge, and handed Batista the rifle. I couldn't even fumble the words, but he understood.

Then he broke into laughter. Holy shit, Sledge, you're one sick fuck. He slapped me on the back, then grew serious. I just had to see what type of man you are. We don't shoot kids. We're American soldiers. Yeah. It's tough, though, because I knew some snipers that had to shoot some teenagers with the AK-47s or chest rigs.

So we do everything in our power not to, and we are willing to let our men die on that behalf. And the situation in that, it turned out to be she was heading towards that area. And Wagner and Starns were completely under fire and outgunned. It was like roughly 15 to 20 insurgents. They ended up earning Bronze Stars with Valor that day for their action. taking on an overwhelming force. And, you know, I was on top of cop steel and we're taking fire. And, you know, there's this moss that's like agitating everybody.

And you know how they would fling out those pizza box IEDs and stuff? So a lot of times they would have kids carry stuff like that. I couldn't really tell because she was far enough away. But I had been running an Eotech red dot on my setup. And Batista had, you know, like an acog. And so I peered through and I was like, oh, my God. God. So, and he was just, he was just weird that way. He was like kind of one of those funny jokers who would just like poke the bear kind of thing. And I knew kind of to a degree what he was

doing because he's like staring at me like, what are you going to do kind of thing? And I'll never forget it. You know, he's like, yeah, you made the right choice, man. We just don't do that. Even if we have to let our own guys die. Like, she doesn't know any better. So. Yeah, she's probably got someone, she probably got her mom. Is it. back in the building with some insurgent with a pistol to the mom's head saying carry the stuff over there and that's the way they get the that's the way they got a lot of suicide bombers you know suicide bombers aren't a lot of times they're not hey I want I want to martyr myself a lot of times like if you don't do this suicide bombing we're going to kill your family yeah um yeah you

were talking about Operation Murphy's Borough um private lewis Kimmy Kim killed an action 20 February 2007 you know it's um just constant constant um and I'm gonna go to page uh go to advance a little bit

because you start to have a little intervention on this deployment when my eyes adjusted to the low lighting and plywood pews a ramshackle altar with a cross at the front greeted me the room held a hodgepodge of Catholic and Protestant icono iconography iconography and literally Urchur. Apparently the building couldn't figure out if the Pope or Martin Luther was in charge.

I walked a few steps down the aisle, hand brushing over the tops of the pews and paused. I couldn't remember the last time I'd been in a church except for the few times I'd been with April. That was your girlfriend. Can I help you, my child? I wheeled toward the voice, instinctively grabbing my rifle, but stopping moments before the automated response to raise the weapon toward the threat kicked in. The man in front of me wore Marine Corps fatigues with a little black crossover's name tape to identify him as a chaplain. His round face carried no animosity nor or sternness, as was the case with our warrior cast,

but a quiet and gentle demeanor. Bits of red lines flecked his nose either due to a harsh Iraqi desert or a drinking problem, I wasn't sure. I relaxed and let my rifle slip from my grasp and hang once more from the sling. Sorry, I just wasn't looking around. I went to move past the man, but he held his palms open. What brings you in here today? I laughed.

Curiosity? then I had I eyed the name tape. Rocheford. Am I saying that right? Rocheford. Rocheford. And added, pastor, he smiled. Father, actually.

My wife is Catholic I offered. Forgive me, father, for I am not. My tone oozed mock piety. Father Rochford, smile didn't diminish. And so you end up developing a relationship with this guy, Roshford, am I getting that right? Yeah, Rossford. Father Dennis Roshford.

was a Vietnam veteran and one of six men in his company to survive the TED offensive. Meeting a nom vet still serving was unheard of. So many who approached the priest for counseling did so with respect and reverence. The man was a legend in Marine Corps and Navy. I didn't know that at first. That's freaking crazy. The dude was a Vietnam in the TED offensive. Yeah, he was wounded in action there.

Yeah. I mean, Scott knew him. And they would do runs together. He would actually run with the troops. most of time. He was like, I mean, that guy was just legend to all of them. Yeah. Yeah. Another story you telling here. Saber 7. This is Red 7. We're in contact with 75 to 100 insurgents. What the fuck did they just say? Wegener exclaimed, apparently the radio operator needed the clarification as well because the next transmission was frantic. We are in contact with 75 to 100 insurgents

and a running black on ammo requesting immediate QRF. Starns whipped the vehicle around and started heading south to provide quick reaction. Requested. Jameson was already on the net asking for details as the attack had come from the remote area where we'd just been. Berserker 3, get off the net and return to base. Request to engage denied. This ends up, that ends up being Donkey Island, right? Which was a big thing you can read about it.

It's one of the things that's interesting about the Donkey Island episode where all these insurgents, were killed was when you again I left in in October and this was this is July 07 yeah so this is pretty late but when you read like the American reports all these insurgents killed and the like Al Jazeera reports our civilians are killed yeah and no they were all suicide vests yeah in white garb the white head shoes like the all nine yards just full on suicide bombers um yeah so that's but it's one of those ones where you guys are trying to get down to their help when you get told no. Did you ever figure out why you got told now? They already had a QRF on the way.

And I mean, we were the closest element. We were out past like the glass factory and a little bit south. And we were pushing hard for it. But they would not let us. Because we were already RTB. And how many vehicles did you have with you? Just three. Yeah.

And you got three vehicles. And they got a proper QRF heading down. And there probably some Brad's, maybe even some Abrams. Oh, they had to send in. Yeah, that was a big one. Aircraft, too, like the helicopter. They had to, those guys got like distinguished flying crosses because one of them strapped, one of the pilots strapped himself to the bottom of the, the helicopter so that they could put wounded in.

Yeah. I was not. We've had those, we've had some Apache pilots on here. They got a name for, oh, they, what do they call it, like a stirrup ride or something like that? They got some horse name for doing that. That's like a protocol. They have like a little thing to clip into if they have to. Or they can either clip wounded guys into it or they can clip themselves into it and put

the wounded guys in the backseat of the helicopter. Yeah, that's what they did. It was so wild. And like, I mean, the tough part, too, just that was a fluke. They just had a presence patrol that was out there that got hit and got hit bad. And like one of the guys, because there was all these reeds in that area. And so when they got out, they were like hiding in the reeds and stuff too. one of the guys got a confirmed kill with a pistol because they were black on ammo.

That's all he had. So, I mean, it was pretty wild. Chuck. You end up, you got some stories in here about some of the, like, some of the other things that are going on over there, like, making friends with the base dentist and getting Novakane shots and whatnot. So that's always interesting. My fratty behavior had not left me. Yeah. I was trying to take care of Starnes because he was starting to fray.

And I could tell, like, just the way that Gonzo had when I was in Afghanistan, Starns is 19, you know, and I know his family. I promise him, you know, hey, I'm going to get, I'm going to get your son home. And, like, he's been through the ringer at this point, you know. I'm like a 19-year-old kid dealing with, like, what we saw in Ramadi is pretty nuts. And, you know, we had made friends with the base dentist. And I was like, hey, do you guys have laughing? And we were, we were, like, drinking in there, you know,

because everybody gets their, their boo. and their care packages and you're not supposed to. But I was like, do you guys have laughing guests? And he's like, no, it's under like kind of locking key. I was like, do you have Novakene? And they're like, yeah. And I was like, shoot me up in the face. And then we're going to, I want you guys to punch me as hard as you can.

Like, it's like fight club, basically. Just, I'm just being a dumb idiot. Like, there's things that I'm proud of that I did as far as like leadership. And then there's other stuff where I just reverted back to my stupidity. You know, if you gave Starins a fun night and. got his mind off the freaking killing in death, the good on you, man. Oh, yeah, he laughed about it.

I mean, Wagner rebuked me in the morning. He was like, hey, man. Like, can't be driving a Humvee on base drunk, dude. You know, I was like, ah, that's true. Yeah, that's not going to work out well. Speaking of facing tough times when you're on deployment, you get the phone call. You know, what in the Navy we call the Deer John phone call.

Same thing. So April was your wife at this point. Right. Okay. So I kind of messed up the chronology. She'd been my girlfriend was in Afghanistan and then became my wife after. And she says, I'm filing for divorce. My counselor think it's the right thing to do.

I exploded, who the fuck is your counselor? What type of ass advice are they giving you? But it is what it is. And you get, you know, like one of your guys, Wagner Sledge, you know, how so are we? are about your wife leaving you, right? But you're slipping on missions. And that's like he had, it's like one of those things. It doesn't really matter what's going on at home. Yeah. Like, we're sorry your wife is like leaving you, which is awful, but you're going to get this killed. You got to keep your shit together. Yeah. And, you know, we're in that last 90 day window. So it was like,

he knew what was up. He's like, if you get complacent, you're going to, it's not just your life that's on the line. It's the rest of us, too. Well, fast forward a little bit. Welcome home, which is the sanitarium song, Metallica. Come home. April refused to pick me up from the airport the night I arrived home, standing in my faded uniform, bleached white by the desert sun. I felt like a failure as I waited to rent a car.

Elsewhere, other members my unit would have spouses and family members to scoop them up, all smiles and relief, and said I had to figure out how to get home. And she had got a house while you were deployed. You had given her the power of attorney. From the Jags, it can't remind you. This is just a freaking nightmare. And again, so much more deep. To get the book, there's so much more information in here.

Things don't work in Houston, which is where the house was, which is where you're going to live. And so fast forward a little bit. So into the night I drove away from Houston, away from April, away from the problems. But as the 12 steps saying goes, everywhere you go, there you are. So you can't really run away from these problems as hard as you're trying. You end up in Austin lonely, no friends. Contemplated suicide. Yeah.

And you say the reason people choose suicideism because they want to die, but because they don't understand how to alleviate their suffering. I didn't know how to end the internal torment I felt, but I also didn't want to die per se. When in a suicidal state, many people's thoughts turn to how others might respond in the event of their demise. So what's this black freaking hole like for you? So I am, at the time, I'm doing in between Austin and Houston at that point.

I'm living on, I've like hit basically every veteran trope. Like I don't have a job. You know, I've just gotten out of active duty. I'm home from Iraq. I'm like, I'm almost 30 at this point. And all I've known for like my 20s is like I've gone to war or I'm training to go to war. or I'm in war. And I'm like...

Or you're throwing up luncheables in beer in college. That too. And so I, you know, it just seemed like every day was like some new battle. It was just another new war. And I'm just, you know, I'm divorced now. My wife has left. She's already found somebody new. She seems happy.

I'm miserable. I'm like, what am I doing with my life? this is the worst, like even the person that loves me the most, or supposed to love me the most, doesn't love me. And I'm like, maybe I should just off myself. And then then she'll know how bad I read it. So I'm like sitting like, it literally looks like a veteran stereotype. I'm sitting on the edge of this bed with this bottle and I'm just drinking, you know, and I'm like, I should do it. I'm not going to be a pussy about it. I'm going to do it. Freaking awful. And what I had this like lightning bolt epiphany where I'm like, if I take myself out tonight, then,

And I just gave the insurgency and al-Qaeda and the Taliban the win that they've always wanted. They took me out from home when things are comfortable. And I realize, like, I'm not going to let those guys win. I'm not going to let them win. And, like, you know, when I dove into my coursework in mental health, like, you really realize, like, suicide is a state of ambivalence. Part of you wants to live and part of you wants to die. And usually when people tell you they're suicidal, that's the stronger part of them that's telling you. that because they actually want to live. And I make it a point to point that out to other vets.

Like if you told somebody, you actually do want to live because otherwise you would have just done it. And so, you know, like I said, going back to human nature, flee or fight? And that's what your body is wrestling between do I flee or do I fight? Do I exit this world or do I keep going? And the reason people choose actual suicide. And I learned this under Dr. Kent Corso, who is one of the leading suicidologists in the United States, he's an Air Force veteran, is they choose it because they don't know how to end the internal torment and suffering that they feel. If they did, they wouldn't choose that. And so part of that is recognizing, like, how do I take proactive steps forward to alleviate the suffering that I'm feeling?

And how do I do that? And so that's when I had that, like, kind of epiphany, I'm like, I'm not going to let these cock suckers win. I chose to live, but at the same time, like, I was still, I still had to deal with the after effects of that because otherwise I was going to still feel that internal torment. How did you know Bill? Bill was my friend from college. Okay. Because that's who you link up with in Austin, just to add some context here.

That's what you're kind of hanging out with. He's kind of recognizing your downward spiral. Oh, yeah. Big time. And finally he says, maybe we should go to church or something. Yeah. And it's funny because he's an atheist. And I was like, that's really weird, man.

You know, like my upbringing and I'm like, you know, what's that going to do for either one of us? And he's like, I don't know, maybe you can meet some nice Christian girl with like morals and values. And I was like, that's what I need after a divorce, buddy, you know. But he just didn't know how to help. And like at first he was like, you know. So that was like him throwing darts at like blind at a dartboard.

Like, hey, maybe we go to church. Yeah. Yeah. And he had just gone through a rough. break up with his fiance and it was like, I don't know, maybe I need some type of different spiritual direction or whatever. And I was kind of like, you know, because of my upbringing, I was antagonistic to it. But, you know, I told my parents, I was like, hey, I'm thinking about. And they encouraged me. And so we ended up going to a couple churches that really sucked. And I was like,

this is dumb. And then he was like, I heard about this church like for people like us that don't like church. And I was like, all right, we can give it a whirl, like whatever. And that's, that's when I started meeting some people who like changed my life. That's when they played foo fighters there. Yeah. Yeah. The band, the freaking whatever God, what do you call a gospel band or a church band or whatever it is?

Yeah. They're playing foo fighters. The worship team played a food fighter song and then they connected it. And they connected it. Yeah. To the message that day. And I thought that that was really cool in an inventive way to like get people who were not certain about spirituality to kind of go and check something out to where it

reduced like the barriers. The barrier to entree. Yeah. You end up going to an outreach at a bar, which is interesting to have a church outreach at a bar. Is it normal? What's that thing? It's kind of like a new thing, I guess.

But I mean, they weren't serving alcohol. But there's stuff now called like beer and hymns that a lot of places in local communities will do now where they'll have somebody, they'll sing hymns and they'll drink beer. If you look at the history of like alcohol in the church, it's really actually fascinating. because the church had initially, like the Trappist monks started it as like a ministry to feed and clothe the poor. And that's where St. Arnold got big because he was the patron saint of brewing because people back then didn't know. Like, let me get into a weird history lesson. So a lot of the cauldron maids would cook dinner and then brew beer in the same vats.

And what would happen is, it would get bacteria in the beer. People would get sick. That's where you get the term witches brew. They'd call them witches. They're like, oh, you got a sick. Well, the monks came in. and they believed that they had to purify everything for God. And so they sterilized everything.

And so nobody ever got sick drinking the beer. And so that's where St. Arnold came up with the whole thing. It was actually safer back then to drink beer than it was water because of the contamination. And so San Arnold's catchphrase, the patron St. Brewers is don't drink the water, drink the beer. So, so yeah, it's kind of a, I mean, it's coming back. Prohibition did a weird thing to, like, the Christian church to where they were like equated it with, like, debauchery and craziness. even if you were practicing moderation and temperance.

But yeah, so I end up going to this event that they do. They wanted to reach people like me. It was on 6th Street, you know, which is famous in Austin. And it was like this church at a bar thing where it was like for 20 and 30-somethings. And yeah, and that's where I met a buddy of mine who changed my life. And that's Ryan, Ryan Jordan. Yeah, that's not his real name. Oh, okay.

But yeah. But he just like was able to communicate to you in a way that you really had an experience before? Yeah. So he had one of the things that I've discovered between, you know, I meet a lot of vets who say like I don't feel comfortable, you know, telling my story to non-bets. And I think most of us do want to tell our stories. But we, what happens is, is like when you're dealing with that like life and death stuff, like, and you start to use the gallows humor and you're laughing about an insurgent.

its head exploding or you're running over this feral dog that's like trying to attack you or whatever you start to sometimes you'll smile and your laugh about that stuff because that's your mind protecting you and what you can see in the body language of civilians a lot of times is they get uncomfortable and we're really good at picking up on body language like military veterans especially combat veterans and so it communicates I am a monster to you so therefore I'm going to shut up and what they really need is a is somebody who cares and the thing that I remind them of is suffering is a universal language we all go through it like you're you're just going to suffer in life you're not immune to like what happens in this world sorry um and you know for my my buddy

his parents were hoarders growing up like so bad that like the tv show tried to do a thing like they had all these cats and like his dad was an alcoholic And his dad would just throw, like when a cat would die, he would just throw newspaper over it and just let the cat rot anything. So the house constantly smiled like cat piss. He would never have his friends over. So he had this really complicated relationship with his dad who was an alcoholic who was driving him around. He was drunk and stuff and crashing into fields. And then his mom was like codependent.

And then they just, and right as he was like kind of working stuff out with him, both of them died within three months of each other. And so he's left as like kind of, you know, this 20-something-year-old. old orphan now and he doesn't know how to deal with any of that and it's affecting his marriage and he's he's you know he's like I have all this trauma from my upbringing how do I deal with it and gives new counseling and so he's telling me like all these stories and I'm realizing like this is a guy who's brave and strong and is okay to own his past maybe it's okay for me to own mine and like I started like testing the waters with him a little bit and he didn't act repulsed or and he just I remember a told him a story about these Iraqi police, like, interrogating this guy with, like, wires

that they pulled from a lamp. And he didn't act repulsed or he just said, it sounds like you've had a rough go man. He said, but I want to let you know I'm here for you. So, and I was like, all right, maybe I can be a little bit more honest with this guy. And it just kind of started out in that direction. And he introduced me some other people. Yeah. Through that, you start reading. you start researching, you start gravitating towards the Christian message. And eventually that's where you end up. And you do a great job in the book, get the book so you can kind of follow that story. But, you know, one thing that you say in the book is most people wrongly believe that when you become a Christian, you never struggle or become super judgmental.

Neither were true in my experience. Instead, struggles remained, but a deep well of growth, humility, and grace. started soaking into the crevices of my life. This process, however, was slow and painful. So I think there was a really good, you know, points, I think, that you make, you know, where, oh, you become a Christian, now everything is going to be hunky dory. Sunshine and rainbows, yeah. Or, you know, people go, oh, Christians are super judgmental and they're pointing their fingers at everyone else telling them how they're messed up and they're better. So that is not the case.

Yeah. And it's tough. I mean, I think you see it a lot in society. Like, I don't even like to tell people that I'm a, I just, I'm like, let my words and actions and deeds, you know, act in nonverbo. I want that to align with, like, the way, one, that I treat people, the way that I care for people. And, like, I don't want to be one of those guys that's just, you know, the worst thing you can do, I think, is like, let me, let me preface it this way. Have you ever heard, like, those Star Wars nerds that won't shut up? about Star Wars and you're like, just please shut up.

Yeah, I do. I know some of them. Yeah. One of his name Jason Gardner. And you're like, I hassle him. He's not that bad. You're like, I don't want to hear about this. And like, yet you have like kind of the same thing happen like within the Christian communities and elsewhere.

Well, the jihitsu communities. The CrossFit community. Yeah. Like you name a community and it's like people get, get wild with their freaking infection of the brain and it's all they want to talk about. Which is cool. They're passionate about it. But if you're trying to influence someone and you bombard them, it's not going to be very, the chances are it might not be very effective.

Right. And so for me, it was just very countercultural to what I had experienced. And sadly, I think like, you know, given recent events and everything else, like a lot of people are like, man, Christians do not line up with like their words or their values or anything. And I think it's because a lot of them are just kind of these nominal Christians at best to where they're like, oh, I kind of know a little bit about my faith, but like they really don't. Like, one of the funniest things, I think for me was I went, so I was on Vance Warp Tour for six years, like working in a mental health nonprofit that was started by Jake Lurz. He's the lead singer

of August Burns Red, and he was, he was my boss and everything. And I would meet these people. And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm a Christian. I was like, cool. Like, when did you become a Christian? and they're like, oh, well, I grew up in Texas. And I'm like, what is that mean? Like, the hell does that mean? Like, that has nothing to do with, like, what you believe. And so I started asking questions. Like, there's this basic tenet of the Christian faith, and it's called the gospel.

And they couldn't explain that. And I'm like, if you can't explain the core tenet of, like, what you're supposed to believe, like, with accurate precision, you're probably not really that person. It would be like me being like, oh, yeah, I'm a jiu-jitsu practitioner, but I don't know what the hell in Omapata is, or, you know, and stuff like that or a triangle. And you're just like, yeah, they do all this stuff, but I don't know any of. And they're doing the same things. And so it's very difficult.

And I think a large problem is, I love what David Foster Wallace says. He's an author. And he said, everybody worship something. It just depends on what you worship. Like, that can be your ego or your beauty or whatever it is. But everybody does something. And I think in our day and age, a lot of. of the issues come down to. People are just worshiping things that are not bringing about value

or compassion or generosity or anything or helping their fellow man. Instead, it's creating us versus them mentalities. And they're using that under the guise of faith. And it just, instead of creating people that really actively live their faith, it creates people that are very repulsed by it, you know. So that's, that's just me spitting just my own random crap as far as what I think. That's good, good to hear that perspective. You end up getting married to Emily. Yep. I'm married 14 years now. There you go. This was really, well, well, I'm just going to read it. You had an old trunk that you had with a bunch of, you know, war memorabilia and stuff that you had in it. and Father Rocheford had given you like a Bible and, you know, a little card.

And so the handwritten card, there's a phone number on it. So, you know, you give a call and someone answers the other end. Hi, I'm trying to reach Father Dennis Rocheford, I said. We served in Iraq together. He's instrumental in my faith journey. He asked me to contact him several years ago and I dropped the ball. The silence on the other end of the phone made me think the call had disconnected. Hello?

Sir, the voice was solemn. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but Father Rocheford passed away some time ago. My heart sank. How, I asked. She replied, it's best if we just remember the departed as they were. How? I pressed again, this time through gritted teeth.

Suicide. I would discover that on the morning of September 10th, 2009, Dennis Rocheford had donned a bright yellow U.S. Navy T-shirt, combat boots and jeans. He drove from his home in Narragansett, Rhode Island, to the Newport Bridge where he parked his car in the center lane. Then he walked to the rail, stood for a moment, and jumped over the side. He was pronounced dead at the scene, joining the other 22 veterans who killed themselves daily. Emily would find me in my office crying when she got home.

That was not the thing I expected, you know, when I was reading that section at all. You know, I thought we were heading for a nice reunion. Did you ever get any other amplifying information on that situation? No. You know, and I wanted to be respectful to his family as well, too. I just, I put in there directly, like, what came from news sources. But, you know, General McFarlane and I have talked about this because he's Catholic, you know. And he had brought in Dennis Roshford.

And, you know, we were on the phone not too long ago, the general and I, and just talking about him. And I said, you know, here's a guy who lived through Vietnam. He's one of six out of 150 to live. And he tells me he becomes a priest because, you know, he promised God that, like, you know, if I make it out of this alive, I'll get my life in service to you. And he survives. And, you know, it's interesting. He told me he's like, I almost picked a girl, though. And so he was wrestling through that before he became a priest.

And then he goes back to war, you know, and he's doing Afghanistan and Iraq. And he is handling all the deaths for Al-Ambar province. So we're talking TQ, we're talking hit, you know, all the areas for Ambar. So he's constantly doing last rights for Catholic soldiers. And he's constantly checking in on everybody else, me, you know, making sure that my spiritual health is good and that I'm doing okay and with everything that I'm dealing with overseas and nobody checks in on him and he he was he was a lifelong alcoholic that's why he was on and off the wagon and just it eventually got to him he was so busy caring for everybody else and nobody took the

time to care for him and that and that's the danger of our healers they got it you got to have somebody that you're checking in with somebody that's checking in on your soul and making sure that you're okay. And, you know, I bring that up in the book, like, one of the things that I had to realize for me is war is a spiritual experience. I love what Carl Marlantis talks about and what it's like to go to war. And, you know, we like to think that it's not, but it's like playing God, you know? And I think Dennis really kind of realized that. You have the power to protect life or you have the power to take it away. And he had done both, you know? in Vietnam taking life away, and now as a chaplain protecting it.

And then, you know, most of us think we know what happens when we die, like myself included, but there's no formative consensus. That's why we call it the Great Unknown. And so when you point an M4 carbine rifle at a man and you pull the trigger, you're going to send him to the Great Unknown. There's something spiritual about that. And so Dennis, and like I had to reconcile all of that with everything. And I think for for Dennis Rochford, like he had seen the best and the worst and just didn't have anybody to help him on his spiritual journey too.

And it eventually led to a suicide. Yeah, you got the following chapters, when everything means nothing. It was the name of the, which I guess is a song by Fit for King. Yeah. Right. Well, Ryan Kirby is a buddy of mine. You know, and you tell. tie that into, you know, again, going on the same threads, the same line of thought, you know,

when everything means nothing, you start talking about, you know, the movie Rambo. And that soliloquy that Rambo, that John Jay Rambo goes on in the end, talking about how you could fly gunships and drive tanks and operate million dollars equipment. But, you know, here I got nothing. You know, we all know that line very well because he can't hold. a job anymore. And, you know, that's, that's the thing that people have to watch out for. I know I always tell people like, you got to find a new mission. You have to find a new mission. You can't go from having the, like the most honorable job and a very focused mission to nothing. It doesn't work. Science will

back you up on that one too. There's a 2012 study by Gibbons and colleagues. And they studied military veterans and regardless of whether you are a combat veteran or you are a non-combat veteran, they found that if you don't find a new unit, a new tribe, a new mission or faith affiliation, you will struggle the rest of your life. Yeah. I'm going to close out the book and again, you know, I've read probably 4% of the, 3% of the book. The book is just awesome. I've skipped over all kinds of details, get the book. There's an audio book too, right? Yeah, yeah. There's a, Bradford Hastings does it. He's an award-winning voice actor who's done like Marvel and Star Wars and stuff.

So there you go. If you don't have the time to read the book, get the audio book, but get it. It's just, you can see. You can see from the stuff that I've read today. There's so much more depth to it. But I'm going to close out with this. While in Afghanistan, I wasn't afraid to die, but I was afraid of dying like a coward. As strange as this may sound, Afghanistan and Iraq and readjusting to civilian life is where my cowardice had to.

go to die. That's the battle I fought in writing this book. Do I succumb to cowardice and make the story pretty where I'm some war hero or do I tell the truth? Will my faith community accept me having told war stories true to form or will the language and violence be a bridge too far? What will my friends and family think after having asked for years what was it like to go to war? the coward in me wants to stay safe but as with anything that brings about purpose and meaning a coward has to die so there you go man um

thank you for writing the book uh book came out in 2022 uh are you are you still writing i know you guys have you and scott have the uh the uh media company the book company. What's it called again? Solid copy media. Solid copy media. So you have that.

Are you still writing? I know you, so you write for medium, right? Yeah, or that's a website type thing. Yeah, and they pay me there. So it's kind of nice. But yeah,

after I wrote this, my publisher came to me and they said, hey, we're not actually used to having people that know how to write. You should actually consider getting into fiction. And so,

So I have always wanted, like when I got my agent and the publishing deal and everything, I wanted to originally write like science fiction and fantasy. Like I love science fiction and fantasy. One of my favorite book series is Red Rising by Pierce Brown. He does a really great job of talking about the dilemmas that soldiers go through because he's interviewed a bunch of them, you know, Lord of the Rings, stuff like that. I've always wanted to write epic fantasy and epic sci-fi. So that's what I'm working on now.

No, check. Do you find it therapeutic? Yeah, absolutely. Was writing this book therapeutic? Did it feel like it got some stuff off your chest, like going to confession of some kind? And like it was wild. Like I would write part of it at this veteran-known brewery in Colorado Springs called Brass Brewing. And they've since sold the company.

But the owner, Woody, is a buddy of mine. And he was a Rommati vet. And so I was like, I'm going to write here. That's awesome. In this brewery. And so he would see me sometimes like crying in there. because I'm like trying to write on my keyboard and I'm just like, this is messing me up, man. Like, you know, when people are dying and stuff like that, it's just, it's tough.

It was tough to write. But it was, it was extremely therapeutic in so many ways. And I think that's why it's beneficial for a lot of these veterans. Like, they may not be able to talk about it, but they might be able to put it down on paper and have somebody else hear that story. And I didn't talk about war at all until 2016. And I happened to write this viral article. and my editor at Medium came to me and I was having a little bit of writer's block

and I was like, hey, what do you guys want me to write on next? And they go, oh man, we love your war stuff. And like, this is pretty kind of left-leaning publication. And I was like, you guys like my war stuff? That's weird. I was like, that was a one-off. I don't write or I don't talk about that stuff. And she said, well, that's a travesty.

And I said, well, why is that? And she said, less than 1% of you have served in the longest-running wars in U.S. history. She goes, you're a small microcosm. And she said, we are losing all the stories that we need to hear from veterans and how to avoid, you know, war just in general, because I'm sure you want peace. And I was like, yeah, of course. She said, we're losing all the important lessons that we could learn from veterans to the annals of history. And it's a travesty that you guys won't even talk about it.

And so it really changed my perspective. And so I started writing and I got better and honing my craft. and then that eventually led to the book. And then I just, I enjoy writing, you know. So you're still writing. You've got the graphic design. I do graphic design and web development. I'm designing a ton of websites right now for people.

Doing keynote speaking. I was in Kansas last week at a gala fundraiser as their keynote. I'm going back out to Kansas a couple other places. So I do speaking engagements. What are you speaking about? I do business just like you, like extreme ownership kind of stuff. Right on. So I'm doing like a major firefighters conference here pretty soon talking about leadership like under fire and stuff.

I do, I talk about, you know, business and leading in business. Mental health is a big one. And then and then veterans too. Like what do you need to know about the veterans that you hire and like what are the best practices? How can you empower them in your businesses and communities and then spiritual things as well too for the people that are interested? So you got that going on. on a day-to-day basis, I know you got like a variety of mental health certifications. What's your involvement in that on like a day-to-day scenario?

So I've taken kind of a step back. It's more like speaking and using my expertise now for like keynotes. But in my local area, I meet with veterans that are struggling because I want, you know, my friends go, okay, I know a guy who can probably help you. And then I just begin a mentorship relationship with them because I think that's really important. And I had that mentorship relationship from Gonzo and other men in my life who empowered me to become who I was supposed to be. I could have stayed stuck and, you know, been another veteran number or trope or suicide or whatever. But I had people step into the fray when I needed it most and I want to do the same for them.

That's awesome. We got sidetracked because we were talking about karate and then we went down the path of metal and freaking, you know, wearing baggy jeans in in the 90s. But you trained, so you did Christian karate. That's where we got sidetracked. I moved over to, yeah, it was just the, the instructors were Christian, so my parents were cool with it. My point in saying that was you were into martial arts. You were into karate kid too.

And now, thankfully, you are training jihitsu too. I am indeed. I am a spasi white belt. I've got about a year and a couple months under my belt right now. Right odd. I train at Warrior MMA. My jiu-jitsu coach right now is a woman named Natalie. And I'm going to butcher her last name.

It's like Saldeo. And she was just on Amazon for a fight for an MNA fight where she won. And she won by Arm Bar. Yes, we like that. Yeah. But I have my black belt in Kyokishin. That's a style that, you know, George St. Pierre. GSP.

Yep. Yeah. Kicking each other in the freaking legs. That's what we do. And we punch to the body a lot. So we were big on pain. So it was a lot of bare-fisted full contact. But we would always spar with pads and whatnot.

But once you're brown belt and above and competing, it sucks. Get some. Yeah. And then you and then of course. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. And then of course, like I said, you have when you mentioned earlier, you got this solid copy media thing with Scott Husing and you're helping authors teaching them how to write, teaching them about the publishing thing, representing them as agents as they take their books out to the publishing world. So that's awesome too.

And I guess is that where we're at right now? Does that get us up to speed? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm still involved in like the church world and stuff like that. And I speak there. I've got a great community of friends. You know, I got two kids now. They're both jiu-jitsu practitioners. Warrior kids, we like to call them. Yes. They are warrior kids. And then, you know, I moved to mountains because, you know, that's what my grandfather did after World War II. And I find a lot of peace and solace in, like, the trees and the mountains. And then I just love skiing too. So, where do you ski up? Usually Breckenridge, because it's two hours from my house. So it's, it's just a quick, you know, if I get up at like 530 and then first chair. First trucks. Let's go.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Where do you learn how to ski? So my grandfather, okay, so this is the fun part. Do you remember how in World War II, like all the officers had like like white glove servers and everything? It was kind of more of an aristocratic thing. So because my grandfather was an officer, we grew up like, I mean, he was great. We couldn't put our elbows on the table. Otherwise he would pick him up and slam it down. And he'd be like, hey, we don't act uncouth here. So he was an officer and a gentleman.

Officer and a gentleman. So growing up, I spent all my summers in Greeley, Colorado. He was in the cattle industry. That's why Greeley smells like. manure. So we would spend our summers there and we were required and then in the springtime we'd go skiing, but we were required growing up to know how to golf and play tennis because that's that's what gentlemen did. We skied golf and tennis. That's when skiing came in. Yeah. So it was skiing golf. So yeah. So he required that we all learned how to ski too, me and my brother.

Check. Right on. Well, awesome. Anything else? Anything else? Not that I can think of off the top of my head. Okay. So if people looking for you, you are solidcopymedia.com, then you have Benjaminsledge.com. Yeah, they can literally, you can Google my name, just like you can Google yours and everything that pops up is me. The medium thing? How often do you write for medium still? It's Benjamin sledge.medium.com.

Yeah. I think it's medium.com backslash at Benjamin Sledge. Something like that. But anyways, if you just Google my name, like. Like the medium profile. Yeah, it depends. Like, you know, sometimes I'll get on a riding spree. I've just been so busy recently that I haven't had a chance.

The last one I wrote about was I read this article about how like these billionaires were building bunkers and they were wondering how that they could keep control over their security teams, like these tier one guys. And I was like, yeah, that'll never happen. I was like, if you're insulating for the rest of the world and the apocalypse, those guys are going to kill you immediately. Yeah, you're dead, man. So, yeah, I was like, I was like, the ultra rich, you're not going to survive the apocalypse.

Good luck, you know. So it's just, I take hot topics at the time and people like my stuff on geopolitics. They like my stuff on, you know, religion and just trying to be a very nuanced writer. I feel that so many people have gotten into political tribalism that I want to take a very nuanced view to where people can go, that was good. And I appreciated that take as opposed to. in flaming culture wars and things like that. Where someone can listen and go, that makes sense to me as a human being.

Right. Which like, same thing for you. And I listened to the declared hostile thing. I was like, I can listen to that as a human being and relate to that. And like so many people are just trained by algorithms and stuff now that if, and bots, like China. People, China and Russia are running information campaigns on you. Most of the people you think you're arguing with in the comments are just bots. That's what it is.

You think you are, but it's just trolls. And so I think that that, like, the more that we have people kind of step into those spaces and, you know, kind of be a salve as opposed to like instigating. That's really what I want to do as far as like any of my hot takes and writing. I want people to go whether whatever side of the aisle they land on go, that was good and I can appreciate that. Right on. And then you're on Instagram and Twitter X.

Sort of. Benjamin C. Sledge. Sort of. Kind of. Yeah. Like, sometimes I get on there and I'll post some stuff. Well,

one thing that you will be at is the January 16th and 17th, 2026, Ramadi Reunion 20.com. I absolutely will be. And if you were listening and you were in Ramadi, then please show up. And if you knew someone that was in Ramadi

with the ready first, please let them know because we want to see you all there. Yeah. The other thing to you that I'll tell you, if you sign up, um, like if you can't make it because of the funds, please let us know, like contact us on the website, number one.

We're happy to cover your registrations, things like that. But also, like, if you sign up, part of you, what you're paying for is you're going to get your very own challenge coin, which we already have developed in their imprint right now. They look awesome. You're going to get your own hat and you're going to get a T-shirt too. So it helps cover the cost of like all the swag that you're going to get there as well. So there you go. Sign up.

Awesome. Echo Charles, you got any questions? Yeah, rewind real quick. Remember when you said your friend kind of was the one that suggested kind of randomly to go to church, to go to this church. What was his name again? Bill. Okay. Whatever happened to him?

I mean, because you kind of said he was kind of more of an atheistic dude. So it was kind of random coming from him. Yeah. Or did he embrace the faith? Like, you know, not necessarily. He kind of came more into like he believes now like there's a higher power in the universe and kind of stuff like that. We're still close. Like he ended up having to move to Tampa, Florida for work.

and then I moved to Colorado. So we'll chat here and there. We just saw each other recently, sadly, for a friend of ours funeral. So when I got back from Iraq, one of the other guys that helped me heal was this old Vietnam fighter pilot. He was a warthog pilot. And prior to the warthog, I can't remember what they were flying, like 837, something like that, in Vietnam. And he was kind of one of the first to welcome me home. And we ended up, me and Bill and him, his name was L.A.

we ended up having dinner every Sunday for 10 years. And so he just recently passed. He was in his 80s. And so we got to see each other again at the funeral. So that original dude, he was kind of like this messenger at the right place, right time, just for that moment, the other thing. Boom, then you're on your way. You think Karate Kid 2 is better than Karate Kid 3?

All right. So Karate Kid 2, did you guys watch Kobra Kai? Tell me you watched Kovar Kai. Yeah, until Terry Silver went to jail, then I stopped watching. Dude, it ends well. Yeah, yeah, I heard. I heard. Yeah, yeah.

Just phased out, though. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I think karate kid won forever be my favorite just because it's iconic. And you had that bullying aspect and that was why I got into karate. I loved part two. Part three is weird because, yeah, you have Terry Silver and the whole Cobra Kai. I don't know.

It's kind of goofy sometimes in that one, but. In my opinion, Karate Kid. three was way better than one and two put together. You're wrong. Sorry. I know you'd think I'd be wrong, but you'd be wrong about that. Well,

wait till you see the Warrior Kid movie. Oh, that's right. You're coming out with that. That's going to be incredible. Chris Pratt, right? Chris Pratt plays Uncle Jake,

yeah. No way. It's just, it's going to help out. A lot of kids. Yeah, my brother gave me your book initially because my brother's like a huge fan of your stuff.

So when he found out, I was going on Jocko, he was like, no way. So he thought, He thought it was, he was like, have you read his book? And I was like, I'll read the Warrior Kid one. I was like read Extreme Ownership, you know.

That's awesome, man. Right on, right on. Anything else? Echo Charles, any other movie TV show debates you want to have? I will say this in closing. Check. Terry Silver is the bad guy in Cry to Kid 3. It's the best bad guy ever created in cinema history.

Dang. Really? Yes, there he is. For the 80s, maybe for some fun. No, no, no. I'm going to leave it at that. Other than that, really good to meet you, sir. He just rains on my parade and he's like, bye.

He's not going to say much, but he's going to drop a bomb when he doesn't. That's like, oh, Charles, for you. Awesome. Ben and Eva, final thoughts? You know, if you're in the veteran space, like I would like to remind you one, and I know we talked about some hard things today that you are never alone. And you have a community of brothers. And if any of this resonates with you, reach out to,

your brothers and your sisters and the armed forces check in on each other. I do that. I'm checking in on all my guys. I make sure that they are. I've even met people. You don't know how much of a community you have, especially when you begin to talk about your time and service. I've met people, I met a distant cousin of mine named Duskin, who oddly, his name is Duskin sledge. And he was like, yo we have like the same story and we really do and it's it's just weird and we have helped each other um over because he was really struggling too when he first got home and then over the years he's just gotten better and better um he quit drinking um you know he's he's just when you when you help other people when you help him take those proactive steps especially if you're a other vet like

remember your warrior ethos that's that's what i want to close with remember that you know I'll never accept defeat and I'm never going to leave a fallen comrade behind. So let's remember that, that we do not leave our own behind. So remember your brothers and sisters, take care of each other. And, you know, if you're going to the Ramadi reunion, I'd love to see you there. That's awesome, man. Great words. Great words to close with.

Thanks for joining us. Thanks for your service in Afghanistan and Iraq. Thanks for everything you did for the country. And thanks for what you're doing now to help out veterans. And what a great way to close, man. Thanks for coming out. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Honored to be here. and with that Ben Sledge has left the building pretty pretty crazy journey Ben Sledge has been on definitely spent some time in a dark place but he made it out and he's in a good spot now

it's a good lesson for everybody take care of your mind take care of your spirit take care of your body and I'll tell you that those three things are very you know kind of connected And it's important that we one thing that we can kind of factually do on a daily basis pretty easily, not pretty easily. Simple, not easy.

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Rehydration scenario. Yeah. I'm seriously considering going uping the creatine dosage even more. I'm at 10 a day, 10 grams a day. Mm-hmm. Will you support me or no? I support, yeah. So there's a lot of, I was thinking the exact same thing.

There's a lot of hotness over the increasing dose of creatine for cognitive scenarios. So, hey, I'm in agreement with it. You know, like how by now we all know, then creatine is one of the most studies, supplements of all of them, see what I'm saying? So I don't know. Feels reliable. At the very least, feels worth a try.

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The scotch. I understand. You ever seen someone sipping tequila? Yes. I have. Even like when I smell a margarita. For real? Yeah, it's just freaking nasty.

I understand. Do you love the taste of a margarita? Well, it depends on the margarita, but the answer is yes. on a good Yeah, yeah, yes, sir. Really? I will admit that. Yeah, yeah.

I think in my mind, it's hard for me to comprehend that you would like that taste. Yeah. Which is, you know, just the reality of the situation. Yeah. I mean, yeah, look,

I don't want to go into a big thing. But, you know, that's basically, what is taste? At the end of the day, what is a risk? It's going to be the whole experience.

You see what I'm saying? And but I understand like a big part of the experience is the association, but in my opinion, the margarita is way less of the quote unquote association and more about like what ingredients and all this other stuff. But hey, your point, I agree with your point. Well, I recommend you don't mix up a margarita. I recommend you mix up a milk. I recommend you mix up some greens, some jaco greens, some jocco hydrate. That's what I recommend. I don't recommend you mix up tequila and whatever it's sugars in a.

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other brands will charge for American made jeans? $400. $300. Yeah. Crazy. Wait, so the 88, that's not of just a promotion then?

No, that's the cost. Oh, I thought it was a promotion. That's how much they're, that's how much we are selling them. Yeah, yeah. That's the new. 88 bucks so and you know what's kind of cool is you know this is like the old this is like the old

school pair of jeans you had when you were a kid because they're just cotton there's no stretch to them they're just comfortable old school freaking cotton jeans 88 bucks and we got everything else that you needed at origin USA if you need some stretchy jeans slightly sure they're not crazy yeah there's not like a pair of what the what's my wife for leggings you know what these are I know what leggings they're like stretchy yeah things they're not those But if you need those, get some Delta, get some Delta genes. So that's what we got for your Origin USA, 100% Made in America, boots, hoodies, whatever you need. You can get it.

Go to OriginUSA.com and support America and fight communism. Fight slavery. Support this great country, OriginUSA.com. Check it out. Yeah, it's true. Also, jocco store.com. It's where you can get your shirts and hats and hoodies, other stuff as well. representing on the path is what I call it.

Discipline equals freedom. Good. Stand by to get some. You notice I kind of like not using the full script because it's getting a little old, but you're just referring back to it. I'm just saying just in case people don't know. They let them know. No, no, no, no, no.

Sometimes they don't know. I'll be quiet over here. You can go read your script. I'm just saying some things are not self-evident. Okay. I'm saying. Proceed. Get after it.

Anyway, we're representing while we're on this path. Oh, rewind actually a little bit back to the mark. Are we representing while we're on the path? Yes, we are. So anyway, speaking of being on and off the path, if you're trying to lose body fat, do not drink margaritas. Margaritas, pina coladas, lava flows, these types of things. They have the most calories and it's a lot too.

A small one is like 1,400 calories. What? Small one. What's so many, is it sugar? Yeah, sugar, the mix, all that stuff. 1,400 calories? That's a damn meal. Yeah.

Oh, it's more than a meal. Yeah. So don't drink, you. You know how you ever heard of a Cadillac? Cadillac Margarita? You heard of a Cadillac? No. Okay.

It's like it's a deluxe margarita. Mm-hmm. Seems insane. With more sugar. More stuff. More sugar. Cream? Do they put whipped cream in a margarita or no?

No. Pino colada. Okay. For sure. Yeah, you got to get the deluxe one if you're trying to go for that 1400 calories. But like I said, you're trying to trim down, lose some body fat, you know, getting to healthy. You know, if you're trying to be productive and have a good life, don't order a margarita. Yeah, probably not.

That's not the direction. Anyway, back to Jockel's store. on the path, some good stuff on their quality stuff. It's good. We go for the fit, which is a big deal. A lot of people told me this is my favorite shirt because it looks the best on me. It's a good fit.

Anyway, side note. Also, the shirt locker, new design every month. People seem to like that one, check that one out. So yes, go to Jocco Store if you want to see what's in the shirt locker. Past Design, just click on the shirt locker. You see, see the past design. It's good. People seem to like it.

Subscription scenario. New Design every month. Check. It's all in Jocco Store. Also books, obviously get the book, Where Cowards Go to Die by Benjamin Sledge. And then on top of that, you got Dave Burke's book, Need to Lead. Order that stat.

Aisselmfront.com. We have a leadership consultancy. We've been around for almost a decade and a half. And we help companies, organizations, and teams get aligned with their leadership. And when they do that, all problems get solved. Go to ashlamfront.com if you would like us to help us, like us to help you with your company. And then, of course, extreme ownership. if we can help you online, we will.

And that is through Extreme Ownership.com. It is a skill acquisition course, series of courses where you can learn the skill of chess, no. Of guitar playing, no. Of basketball, no. We will teach you none of those skills, but we will teach you the most important skill in life. And that is the skill of leadership.

Go to Extreme Ownership.com. If you want to learn that skill, And if you want to help service members active and retired, check out Mark Lee's mom. Mom, Leach, got an amazing charity organization. Go to America's Mighty Warriors.org. Also, check out heroes and horses.org and Jimmy May's organization, beyond the brotherhood.org.

Also, if you want to connect with us, you can check out Ben Sledge. He's on the interwebweb's Benjamin Sledge.com. He's also on Instagram and TwitterX, sometimes at Benjamin C. Sledge. And also, you can see both of us. If you were with the 11-1-A-D in Ramadi, go to Romadi Reunion20.com, January 16th and 17th, 2026. We will see you there.

And if you want to check out Echo and I, we're on social media, Echoes at Equalysal. I'm at Jocko Willink. You can also check out jaco.com. Just be careful because that place is mind-wrought and it'll kill you. So don't spend too much time there.

Once again, thanks to Ben Sledge for joining us tonight. Thanks for what you did in Afghanistan. Thanks for what you did in Ramadi, Iraq. And thanks for what you continue to do today. Also, thanks to our uniformed service members around the world with a specific salute to our reserve and National Guard units who step into harm's way when the call comes, men like Ben and his brothers. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,

correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for stepping into harm's way here at home to protect us and everyone else out there. Take that lesson from Benjamin Sledge. It's tempting to take the easy route. It's tempting to run from the things you fear. The coward in us wants to stay safe. But as Ben points out in his book, with anything that brings about purpose and meaning, a coward has to die. So go kill that coward, everyone.

That's all I've got for tonight. And until next time, Zekko and Jocko. Out.