Jocko Podcast - 524: How Soldiers and Soldiering Reflect Real Life Every Single Day

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

>Join Jocko Underground<Focusing on what makes effective commanders: robustness under stress, calmness, boldness, common sense, logistics, and staying connected to the troops—plus why “luck��� usually follows action and risk. Breaking down leadership lessons from Field Marshal Archibald Wavell (and his “In Praise of Infantry” / Soldiers and Soldiering). Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko Podcast number 524 with Echo Charles and me. Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantrymen. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier.

He suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantrymen is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire. in modern war than that of any other arm. The infantryman has to use initiative and intelligence in almost every step he moves, every action he takes on the battlefield. We ought, therefore, to put our men of best intelligence and endurance into the infantry. And that right there is a quote from field marshal Archibald Weavell. He's an Earl.

And the article was in the London. times in 1945, the article was titled In Praise of Infantry and Archibald Wayvel was the son of a major general, a major general in the British Army that fought in the second Boer War, commanded Johannesburg after its capture. Wayvel went then went to the Royal Military College in Sanhurst. He was commissioned in 1901 as a second lieutenant in the Black watch. He himself fought in the Boer War, so I guess he was working for his dad at some point. Then he was off to India. He fought in the Bazaar Valley Campaign, which was a punitive expedition against a tribe

on the Northwest Frontier. And punitive expeditions don't, not quite politically correct evolutions. They don't not consider very politically correct evolutions. It is what it sounds like. It's like a punitive, like someone in some tribe does something. something to let's say the colonialists and then they go and just punish that group. So they could be pretty devastating. He then went to staff college, spent a year as a military observer with the Russian army,

working as a staff officer when World War I began, wounded at the second battle of E-praise, lost his left eye, awarded the military cross, but stayed in, worked as a staff officer, um, 34 years old, became a general, one of the youngest generals in the British army. part of the Egyptian expeditionary force until the war was over. And then between wars, he kind of continued with his military career. 1937, he was a general officer commanding of British forces in Palestine and Transjordan fought against the insurgents there. Continued various assignments in the Middle East and Greece and the Balklands. And then when World War II kicked off, he once again went through a bunch of different assignments, started in the Middle East.

He went to Africa, fighting in Somaliland, Eritrea. Mogadishu, Libya, eventually was there when they withdrew troops from Somaliland and was part of that push, one of the leaders in the push into Greece and Crete in 1941, which didn't work out well, fought early battles against Ramel in 1941, which also didn't work out well, assigned as a commander-in-chief of India and was responsible for the defense of Southeast Asia from Japan and also the defense of Burma was preparing. for long-range operations behind Japanese lines when the war ended. He stayed in India until 1947, returned to England, served as Lord Lieutenant of the

County of London, and thankfully he wrote about military campaigns, wrote about military history and wrote about military leadership. And fortunately for us, in 1953, they put together a little compilation of his works. and this little book is called Soldiers and Soldering. And we're going to take a look at some of the lessons he got from this pretty long and varied military career with some wins and losses, by the way. So let's get into it. Field Marshal, Earl.

He's an Earl. I thought his first name was Earl when I first started reading about him. But that's his title. Yeah. Do you know what that is? There's a bunch of different titles in the bro. British royalty cast system, and this is one of them. You know, it's like Lord.

Knight. Yeah, knight would be suborded, I think, to Earl. True. But Earl is one of the titles that you can get. Isn't there like count? Yeah, like this is in the count genre. Nice. I'm married to a Brit.

I didn't have time to research it with her because, plus she gets really hyped up when she starts talking about, you know, British activities. Hell yeah. Royalty activities. So this is a book It's one of those books where you read and you go, dang, that's a good way of thinking about it. Oh, he thinks that too. Or, oh, that's an angle I didn't think of.

So let's get it into it. Fast portal that I'm not proposing to deliver to you an apologia for generals, but to explain the qualities necessary for a general and the conditions which he has to exercise his calling. So he's just talking about what are the qualities that it takes to make a good general. And he read a bunch of, he says I read a bunch of exposition. from various writers about the virtues, military or otherwise, that are, you know, considered to be required. And he ends up landing on Socrates. And Socrates said, the general must know how to get his men their rations and every other kind of stores needed for war. That's the opener.

Opening thing. You need to be able to feed your people. He must have imagination to originate plans, practical sense, and energy to carry them through. This is an interesting topic, this energy thing, energy, energy. You know, random. right yeah she says she says energy quite a bit and she'll say it multiple times like I just did energy energy he must be observant untiring shrewd and this is where we get into some he's gonna rattle off some dichotomies here kindly and cruel simple and crafty a watchman and a robber lavish and miserly isn't this like this is the literal dichotomies of leadership right here generous and stingy, rash and conservative.

So this is Socrates rattling off dichotomies that a leader has to be. All these and many other qualities natural and acquired he must have. He should also, as a matter of course, know his tactics for disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials as a house. Facts. He goes on a little bit here. But even this definition of Socrates does not, to my mind, emphasize sufficiently what I hold to be the first, essential of a general, the quality of robustness, the ability to stand the shocks of war. So this is for him is the number one quality.

And this is, man, when you look back at life, your life and people around you and you think about how well did they stand the shocks of life or war, it's pretty telling. Probably this factor did not apply as much in Socrates times. People did not then suffer from what is now elegantly known as the jitters. Yeah, you're right, because in Socrates times, they weren't sitting in a trench waiting to die for months on end from overhead fire, indirect fire. I can perhaps best explain what I mean by robustness by a physical illustration. I remember long ago when I was a very young officer being told by a mountain gunner friend that whenever in the old days a new design of a mountain gun was submitted to the artillery committee, that august body had taken it to the top of a tower some hundred feet high and thence dropped it to the ground.

If it was still capable of functioning, it was given further trial. If not, it was rejected as flimsy. The committee reasoned that mules and mountain guns might easily fall down the hillside and must be made capable of surviving so trivial on this adventure. On similar grounds, rifles and automatic weapons submitted to the Small Arms Committee, I believe, are buried in mud for 48 hours or so before being tested for their rapid firing capabilities. The necessity for such a test was very aptly illustrated in the late war when the original Canadian contingent arrived in France armed with the Ross rifle, a weapon which had shown

its superior qualities in target shooting at the Bisley ranges in peace. In the mud of the trenches, it was found to jam after a very few rounds and after a short experience of the weapon under active service conditions, the Canadian soldier refused to have anything to do with it and insisted on being armed with the British rifle. So you're going to use something in combat. You need to test it. Put it in mud,

shoot it. And I got to see a bunch of these tests happen with some of the various weapons. We have to talk to a Cappy Army through all that stuff. But that's what they do. They take military weapons and there's certain tests that you have to put them through. And one of them is like bearing them in mud,

freezing them, put them in water, pulling them back out, letting them rust, see how much rust they can take. Just all these things. How many rounds can they shoot without? jamming. They do all these kind of things because they got to be robust. And what he's saying, it's the same thing for a general going to the book. Now, the mind of the general in war is buried, not merely for 48 hours, but for days and weeks in the mud and sand of unreliable information

and uncertain factors and may at any time receive from an unsuspected move of the enemy, an unforeseen accident or a treacherous turn in the weather, a bump equivalent to a drop of at least 100 feet onto something hard. Delicate mechanisms is of little use in war. And this applies to the mind of the commander as well to his body, to the spear of an army as well as to the weapons and instruments with which it is equipped. All material of war, including the general, must have a certain solidity, a high margin over the normal breaking strain. It is often said that the British war material is unnecessarily solid and the same possibly is apt to be true of their generals.

But we are certainly right to leave a good margin. So I, you know, it's one of those questions. Where does that come from? Where do you get that solidity as a human being? Does it come from your upbringing? Is it something that you're born with? Is it a little bit of both? Are you, you know, a nine-year-old that's in wrestling practice,

gutting it out every single day and you just get tougher? Are you home alone a lot and you've got to figure out how to fend for yourself? Like, what's going on in your childhood? Or is it just like, oh, this is just who you are? And, you know, again, this is one of those things that, who knows, maybe we'll never know but basic seal training there'll be a guy that grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth and he'll make it through had a very nice little easy life made it through and some other guy that grew up in the ghetto would or it out on the farm or in some really

rugged environment and quit and the same and both some guys that are rich quit or some guys that grew up on the silver spoon quit some guys that grew up really tough make it so you just don't what's going to happen. So where has it come from? We don't know. But I can tell you, we can find out who's got it. We might not know where it comes from, but we can find out who's got it. It is sometimes argued whether war is art or science. I noted that in the invitation to me to deliver these lectures. I was to choose some branch of the science of war. Perhaps I'd been lecturing at a rival university. It might have been termed the art of war. I know of no, I know of no branch of art or science, however, in which rivals are at liberty to throw stones at

the artist or scientists to steal his tools and destroy his materials while he is working, always against time on his picture or statue or experiment. So there you go. Is it art or science? Well, I never said anybody trying to murder the scientist or the artist while they're working on their experiment or working on their piece of art. So he's like, dude, this is a totally different thing. Under such conditions, how many of the great masterpieces of art or discoveries of science would have been produced?

No, the civil comparison to war must be that of a game. A very rough and dirty game for which a robust body and mind are essential. The general is dealing with men's lives and must have a certain mental robustness to stand the strain of this responsibility. How great that strain is, you may judge by the sudden deaths of many of the commanders of the late war. When you read military history, take note of the failures due to lack of this quality of robustness. I propose to say a few words about the physical attributes of a general. Courage, health, and youth. Personal appearance we need not worry about.

An imposing presence can be a most useful asset, but good generals as the story of good race horses run in all shapes. Yeah, you can look like anything. Physical courage is not so essential a factor in reaching high rank as it was in the old days of close range fighting, but it still is of very considerable importance today in determining the degree of risk a commander will take to see for himself what is going on. And in mechanized warfare, we may see, we may again see the general leading his troops almost in the front of the fighting or possibly reconnoitering and commanding from the air. So he's saying look physically Sure it's good to have that big physical presence But it's not a necessity and then courage good to have sure

But it's different now that you're not like charging across the battlefield with a sword An example of the extent to which generals came under fire in the old days you may like to know that at Marlboral's assault on Schellenberg during the Blahem campaign which is like the 1700 hundreds. Six lieutenant generals were killed and five wounded in the allied army, while the 1500 British casualties at the action included four major generals and 28 brigadiers or lieutenant colonels. So that's some serious sacrifice from the head shed there. There's a good story told about of one of Napoleon's marshals, Lafiebra, the gallant old soldier who became Duke of Danzig. A civilian friend was once envying him at his house.

and the decorations and other awards he had. At last the old Marshall got tired of it and said to him, well, if you want all these things, come out to my garden and let me have 10 shots at you at 40 paces. If you survive, I'll hand over to you my house and everything in it. His friend, perhaps naturally objected. All right, said the old man, the old Marshall. But remember that I had several hundred shots fire at me

at that range before I got all these things. Yeah. courage physical and moral a general undoubtedly must have voltaire praises in marlborough that calm courage in the midst of tumult that serenity of soul in danger which is the greatest gift nature of nature for command so staying calm staying calm the greatest gift you can have is to be able to stay calm isn't that wild it's wild to think that people are going to be in a senior leadership position and still have to contend with keeping their emotions under control. It's kind of wild for me to think about that.

How much of that do you think is, I guess that's my way of knowing, but how much of that do you think is like them or people thinking that it's like cool? Yeah. We're going to get to that. There is a section there where he talks about like,

what people think of it. And certainly, it can be seen as a, I mean, it can be seen as a tool that you could use. Yeah. But usually it's a tool for the week.

You know, you mess something up. Like if I've got, if I've got to like, blow my, lose my temper. And I will say like, calculated loss of temper,

you know, is obviously, do I recommend it? No. Have I had to use that? Yes. Yeah. Probably.

Three times. Yeah, that's... You know, if I include my kids, maybe like... Yeah, maybe like five times. If I include, like, my kids where I had to be like, oh, yeah, they don't think this is a big deal. And you have to, like, escalate. Yeah. I wouldn't maybe not quite call it, like, losing my temper.

But at least escalate where they feel like some emotion, right? Yeah. It's the one of those... But that's like five times in the last, like, I don't know. How old am I? 54. Yeah, this is... I don't...

I mean, this is a long... long time bro yeah and that's kind of how it has to be otherwise because it loses its effectiveness pretty quick it's kind of almost like irony in a way where well when when you do it it's kind of like it can be effective you do it again and it's like 50% as effective you do it again 10% effective you keep doing it zero yeah well yes I agree with you but also and I agree with what you're saying but also what you're not saying is that there's also a different effect that can happen Because if you come and present me with something and I yell at you, are you going to present me with something again? You're not. You're not going to present anything. You're not going to take an initiative. You're just going to be a robot that's just trying to stay out of trouble. So it has an effect. Maybe the first time you're right. Like it has an effect like, oh, dang, jocco was serious about this. I better get that. I'm going to make that happen. But then I do it again. Then I do it again. Not only is the effect diminish it's diminishing to have the impact that I wanted, but it's having a different impact.

And the impact that it's having is just like you're not looking to like even engage in anyway. So being calm. And by the way, when I said he talks about this in a little bit, this kind of contradicts that because he talks a little bit more positively than I do. Well, a lot more positively than I do. You know, I don't think losing your temper is good. I think it's weak. Back to the book here. a later military writer who had no great admiration for Jafra

was compelled to admit that his stolid calm and obstinate determination in the darkest days of the retreat had an influence which offset many of the grave strategic blunders which he committed. That's a, You ever seen somebody do something like stupid, but then they act cool and they kind of get away with it? Yeah. What do you mean? Like they play it off cool? Yeah, yeah, yeah, they play it off.

Yeah, yeah. Like you'll even see someone, you know, like fall down and like roll out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in MMA people do that. MMA like a guy will like throw a kick and like slip and fall and then like roll out of it and like get his fists up again. You're like, oh, did he mean to do that? Like there's a little party that's like, wait, was that supposed to happen? Right.

So if you remain calm and you don't freak out, even when you make a mistake, you're like, yeah, yeah, yep. You know what, go ahead and pull back and we'll start moving in this direction as opposed like, I don't know what's going Oh, you know. Health in a general is, of course, most important. Oh, health is most important. But it is a relative quality only. We would, all of us, I imagine, sooner have Napoleon sick on our side than many of his opponents whole.

That makes sense. A great spirit can rule in a frail body, as Wolf and others have shown us. Marlboro during his great campaigns would have been plowed by most modern medical boards. Next comes the vexed question of age. And he goes through talking about some of these people. Caesar and Cromwell began their serious soldiering when they were well over the age of 40. Marlboro was 61 at the time of his most admired maneuver.

Teren's last campaign at the age of 63 is said to be his boldest and best. Maltke, the most competent of the moderns, made his name at the age of 66. bro I got I got room I got room and confirmed his reputation at 70 and by this is the old days bro these guys weren't like like on the path these guys weren't on the good nutrition but you know they probably weren't eating a bunch of processed junk either right and plus they were living out in the field at least a little bit Roberts was 67 when he went out to south Africa after our first disastrous defeats and restored the situation by surrounding the Boer army at pareda

and capturing Blomfontein and Pretoria. Folk at 67 still possessed energy and vitality and greater originality. So he's basically rattling off a bunch of people that got it done when they were in their 60s and even 70s. When you think about that, that's not. If you think about it for a second, it actually doesn't come as that big of a surprise. Because, okay, remember when you were like, let's say, 20, 20, 21, right? This idea of you being 40, we'll say, if you really rewind, you. wind your mind and think of what was I thinking at that time.

The age of 40 is completely over the hill. Completely. You think so? That's what I felt when I was like 19, 20 years old. I thought 40 is like, yeah, like I really pray that I have done everything that I said out to you because that 40 year you might as well just be. It's game over. Yeah, yeah. That's grandparents age.

You're not doing nothing, you know. And even when you see like older people, I don't know, to me, it was like this. it seemed like their life is kind of like an over the hill life. You know? Like they're not having fun out there. They're not exploring new things, you know, kind of thing.

But then when you get to 40, you're kind of like, oh, this is kind of where mature life begins, like the real stuff. The other stuff was more like elementary school kind of a thing. Where you're just learning. Yeah.

Well, the thing that I always think back to is with that interview with Kasparov, the chess player, when Rogan asked him if he could beat or how he would do against Magnific. Carlson and he said he said he would lose and he gave two reasons the first reason was because Magnus Carlson got to start knowing all these other chess moves that had happened in the last 50 years

you get those delivered to you right it's like jiu jitzu like if you went back to in if you went back with a buggy choke yeah to 1990 you'd be tapping a lot of people out a lot of people but that right now you wouldn't tap that many people out with a buggy choke or whatever umapata you pick whatever modern technique. Look what Dean List did in ADCC 2003, you know, just like, oh, well, I'm just going to footlock a bunch of people. They don't know what they'll hook them. They don't know what's happening.

So, but today, you just get that heel hook. You know, you get that footlock. You get that 50, 50. You get all that stuff. Yeah. You just get it given to you. And there's a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. There's a lot of that. Yes. You know, even like the smallest day and jiu-jitsu is a good example. But yeah, because. there's an element of trial and error, you know, that that happens throughout any kind of learning process or whatever. But like, even think of like the arm bar, right? Like, let's say you get an, look at an arm bar back in. Oh, yeah. You really want to go back, you know, 19. When was it? You know,

back in the Heliogacy days. Oh, yeah. You want to go back to like the 30s. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then try to do an arm bar like that, right, you'll never get the arm bar because just with all the little details of how to escape the arm bar real fundamental now you know everybody kind of knows and all this and it's like but yeah there was no no knowledge of that now it's like no no don't do it that way because you can just do this and boom you have the knowledge right there you know so it kind of it does make sense yeah so Magnus Carlson was just given all that platform he was allowed to operate on was automatically elevated the same thing with skateboarding like everyone can do a kickflip now it's just like a joke uh uh

But back in the day, if you could do a kick, like professionals could do a kickflip. Amateurs could not. Yeah. I mean, it didn't last for long, like pretty, once it got out there, but man. Can you do a kick flip? Yes. Right now? I mean, it might take me some cracks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But do you know, do you want to Ali is? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there were, like, when, when Tony Alva first, like, got four inches of air out of a pool, it was like, bro. you know like this the whole world was well that's the limitations you know what well I guess this professional is going to be able to go four inches out of a pool you know now guys go like freaking however and Rodney but Rodney Mullen took the Ollie and started doing it on the ground and then sort of flipping the border on all this other crazy stuff but his but now people just

get to see that it's possible and you learn the technique like there is a specific technique of where you put your foot when you do a kick flip you got to put your you know I'm a goofy foot my foot goes out a little bit further to the right on the front of the board and then you know that's the way you do it and so if you just had to learn that by your own

it would take forever so you so being able to say oh here's the move here's how you do it now listen and this is what I would say about jiu jihitsu is there's 10 things that you have to do let's say theoretically there's 10 things you have to do to make a move work I can teach you five of them

And the other five, I can teach you where to put your arms, where to hold your grip. I can tell you where to put your weight, but you're going to have to feel it as well. And then the other five things, you're going to have to figure out for yourself because it's going to be a little bit different for you. There's some things, you ever, when you're teaching something in jiu-jitsu and you do it to someone, but you have to kind of do it to everyone in the class because there's no possible where they can visually see what you're doing. Yeah. So how are you going to teach that? Like you can, you can let them feel it as well, but then they've got to try it and

then they got to do it back to you and they got to be like, hey, is this right? You go, well, not really. Put it a little bit more towards the shoulder. Okay, yeah, that's a little bit better. And sometimes it's like really hard to transfer the knowledge. Yeah. And you notice there's some things in the world that when you do it, you have to just, you have to get it right one time kind of on your own.

I was recently tow in surfing. You ever heard of this before? Of course. So I'd never done it before. And I'd never, I'd never done wakeboarding either, which is very similar. But like, people are talking to me, telling me, like, how to do it. And they're giving me clear instructions. But, like, each time I was doing some, I was making little mistakes.

And I had to feel like, oh, what was that mistake? What was that mistake? What was that mistake? And eventually, I got it. And then once you get it, you're like, okay, I know how to do this now. It's sort of like dropping into a half pipe on, skateboarding or standing up when you're like on a surfboard. Like the first time you do it,

you're going to fall like four, five, seven, 80 times, 60 times. Once you stand up once though, it's like you can almost immediately stand up again. So there's some things that you have to do. You have to learn for yourself. But if someone tells you, okay, when you stand up on your surfboard,

here's where you're going to put your hands, you know, here's the weight, here's when you're going to do it. Like when you feel the board start to pick up, speed on its own, put your hands here, you know, push yourself up, bring your feet up like they can, and then we can do that a couple times on the beach. Whereas if I just said, hey, take this board to go out there and stand up on a wave, it would take you a month to even figure out how to catch the wave.

Yeah. So you have to learn the moves from somebody. It's crazy how there's certain, like even riding a bike, for example. Like writing a bike is one of those ones where you can never study your way into writing a bike. You got to do it. 100%. Yeah.

Yes, but when things are more technical, you have to get shown how to do the physical aspects of the movement. And then, you know, the, the, the, there's like a certain number of rote memorization of physical movement you can do. And then once you have that, then you have to try it. And once again, and we see this all the time, you used to see this when, you know, back in pre-UFC days, oh, I'm going to throw the whatever combination I learned in Taekwondo at you and it's going to cause this reaction.

But then when we fight for real, bro, you don't react at all like the way the instructor said. So now we have a totally different situation. So you have to learn the physical way to do it, but then you have to go and spar. And that's what's so good about Jiu-Jitsu is you can take that, you can learn the moves and then you can go and spar,

you know, what we call rolling. And you can do that at 100% effort because you can resist me 100% And if I do the move correctly, I can get you still. So that's what that's the advantage that Magnus Carlson has. He got all that's knowledge. So that was one thing that Kasparov said. The other thing Kasparov said was like, oh, plus I'm older now.

My mind doesn't work as well as it used to. And I was like, no. Because I thought, dude, I'll kick. You know, you would think you've been doing this for longer. You'll win. You know, it's kind of like Jiu-Jitsu. Well, this guy's a black belt. He's been training for 30 years.

this guy's a brown belt he's been training for nine years but if that brown belt is a badass and he's like fully in the game yeah guess what it's a it's a problem do because it feels like when you get older your sense of competition kind of fades as well like you're less competitive it seems like okay well maybe that's you yeah yeah it totally is me bro I thought it was everybody But it feels like there's a certain logic to it too Not necessarily it Like sure it's probably physiological You know what I'd imagine

But it feels like it's logical as well You know how like because as you grow up Your value systems change you know Yeah I was gonna say maybe you're competing In a different genre You're depending in a different game Like right now you're more competing In trying to

You know be a good dad You know again are you competing against like your neighbor Like oh wait right she got his kids Those presents, no, no, but I'm saying you're trying to, you know, you're focused on performance. It's performance of your duties as a dad, as a husband, as a business partner. Right. Yeah. But, and that's, I think that, actually, that is the sense of competition that I'm talking about competing with other people.

So you know how like, you know, let's say the fundamental, like, when you're a little kid, right? Especially boys, right? Everything's like a little like a race or a this or that or you know so you can throw this rock the farthest. You know that you know that sense of company. And then as you get older, like let's say we're playing chess, right? For example, me and you. When I'm young and you beat me, I'm going to be like, I can't wait to like, I don't know, practice and get you back. Right.

Because that sense of company. When I get older, I have so many other things that are more important than me beating you in chess. You see what I'm saying? And they're not competitive things. They're things I just need to focus on my mind. line on you. Yeah, yeah, there's probably just a reprioritization. Yeah, yeah.

You recognize like, oh, if someone catches you in Jiu-Jitsu right now as a, how old you? 48. 48, as a 48-year-old dude with like a wife and kids and a job, like, it's going to bother you less than when you were a bounce, a single bouncer at the bitter end. And you're, you're proud of some different things back then. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. But that's what we have to contend with. So I heard some other horrible fact that when you look at like people that do great, either creative or scientific efforts in their lives, it all happens when they're like 25, 28, 30. Even like the big scientists, like they make their big discoveries when they're in that age group. And now there's a whole bunch of reasons for that, right? There probably is a whole bunch of reasons for that.

I mean, then again, we're talking about guys right now. that did their best work at 63 and 67 and 70 and 66 so it can happen because I'm sure like you like what are the chances that someone that's 26 is in a place in their life where they can fully focus their efforts on their art or on their science right they're sleeping in the lab they don't got no one to go home to they got no bills to pay you know so of course they got but but then that person if they if they made it through those years and now they're 50 or 43 they got a mortgage

I mean even back at the day they're like trying to provide for their family they can't sit around and freaking be working on their song like that shit ain't happened so but that being said still going back to Kasparov that mind is humming

at probably 30 and that's when they're like the big the good ideas come out now he goes on to say this book, it is impossible really to give exact values to the fire and boldness of youth as against the judgment and experience of riper years. If the mature mind still has the capacity to conceive and absorb new ideas to withstand unexpected shocks and to put into execution bold and unorthodox designs, its superior knowledge and judgment will give advantage over

the youth. So that's, you know, those are all things to keep in mind. How often does someone that's older not have the ability to absorb no ideas, right? How much more difficult is it for them to absorb unexpected shocks? You know, one thing that's, you know, when I look back and people are like, oh, how would you doing buds now going through school training? And I'm always like, no factor. Right? Because, you know, I'm just, I'm just holding the line.

But what I actually think about was like, oh, man, can I, what, how painful would it be to be in, like, Navy boot camp right now to have, like, Oh, hey, you know, you have to do this at this time today. And then after that, you have to do this. And after that, you have to do this. You know, just, that would just be a shock to the liberty that I have constructed in my life. And then the, how often is someone that's a little bit older willing to take risks? Like when you're young, again, going back to someone that has no mortgage, no, you know, no mortgage, no kids, no, no, no, no, no,

spouse, they can roll the dice all day with their money because they got nothing to lose. But when you got more to lose, even then let's say like a military person and you're putting on the line your reputation and your career or you're a politician, you got your reputation, your career, like that can be very difficult. So, but if you can do that, if you can keep an open mind, you can have new ideas, then you can, then you can use your knowledge to have an advantage over youth. And it says at the same time, there is, there is no doubt that a good young, general will usually beat a good old one.

And the recent lowering of age of our generals is undoubtedly a step in the right direction, even if it may sometimes lose us prematurely a good commander. So there you go. I think one, my whole comment about the whole age thing, it's kind of like when people would say, hey, how much does your Ruckway? Doesn't matter. This is what I'm carrying. So how old do you?

Doesn't matter because this is what we're doing. Fast forward. I don't think I need to expedite for long on the moral qualities of a leader. No amount of study or learning will make a man a leader unless he has the natural qualities of one. The qualities of a leader are well known to you and I, and I shall deal with them further in my second lecture. So we'll get there. Here I will mention only the barest essentials. So it's interesting.

You know, he says that no amount of studying or learning will make a man a leader unless he has natural qualities. I, here's what I've always said about that. If you, there are leadership, leadership is a skill and you can certainly get better at it.

Will you, if you're going for the NBA and you're only five foot eight, is any amount of practice going to make you six foot four? No. If you're a leader, and you have a certain God-given ability with speech, you can get better at it,

but you may not have the ability to be Martin Luther King or John F. Kennedy when you speak. It just, that's the way it is. So, but can you get better? Yes, you can certainly get better. And there's so many little qualities that a leader is supposed to have or should have. and you can make all of them a little bit better.

And so if you make all of them a little bit better, you can improve as a leader. So you may not have the gift of being six foot four to be in the NBA, but you can still be Steph Curry. What's Steph Curry? Six of one. I don't know. Okay.

Whatever he is, or Mugsy Boggs, who's five three, I think. And he played in the NBA. Yeah. But he did it through a different approach and massive skills. So you can be. become a leader by Utilizing and studying and learning the skills of leadership as long as you have the most important one which is humility

Going on He says he's gonna talk about the barest essentials he must have character Which simply means he knows what he wants and has the courage and determination to get it He should have a genuine interest in and a real knowledge of the raw material of his trade and And most vital of all, he must have what we call the fighting spirit, the will to win. You all know and recognize it in sport, the man who plays his best when things are going badly, who has the power to come back at you when apparently beaten, and who refuses to acknowledge defeat.

There is one other moral quality I would stress as the mark of a really great commander as distinguished from the ordinary general. He must have a spirit of adventure, a touch of the gambler in him. As Napoleon said, if the art of war consisted merely in not taking risks, glory would be at the mercy of very mediocre talent. Napoleon always asked if a general was lucky. What he really meant was, is he bold. A bold general may be lucky, but no general.

may be lucky unless he is bold the general who allows himself to be bound and hampered by regulations is unlikely to win in battle so good you know there it is we think we're looking for that disciplined rigid individual that's going to follow all the rules but we literally can't be bound or hampered by rules and regulations and i really like the idea of you know are you lucky you're only going to be lucky if you're bold. And that's kind of the S.A.S. saying, fortune favors the bold. Who dares wins? You know, those are kind of the, some of the Brit sayings. So far, we have dealt with the general's physical and moral makeup. Now for his mental qualities. The most important is what the French call

la sense do practicable, what we call common sense. I was going to try a French accent, and I voted against it. I understand. My daughters speak Spanish with no Spanish accent. Because, you know, in Southern California, you take Spanish in high school, but they speak Spanish. And they can do, they have a good vocabulary and can communicate in the proper conjugates and whatnot. But they just do it with no Spanish accent. They just do it as pure gringoes.

And it's a pretty funny listen to. What we call common sense, knowledge of what is and what is not possible. It must be based on a really sound knowledge of the mechanism of war, i.e., topography, movement, and supply. Man, in common sense, you know, the old thing, common sense is not too common, right? And isn't it weird? I've, I've earned a lot of, I've earned a lot of head nods. You know, like, we agree. Yeah.

By just saying some pretty common sense, dumb stuff, you know? In my days, like, maybe we should just do this. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. You know what I mean? We get operation complication going on and everyone's getting nuts. Like, we could probably just do this. These are the real foundations of military knowledge, not strategy and tactics as most people think. It is the lack of this knowledge of the principles and practice of military movement and administration.

The logistics of war. Some people call it. Yes, that's what we call it there, Earl. which puts what we call amateur strategists wrong, not the principles of strategy themselves, which can be apprehended in a very short time by any reasonable intelligence. So it's like, oh, the little warfighting stuff,

the little tactics of like killing each other, that's not that hard. That's what he's saying. But the administration, the logistics, that's the hard part. And that's what he's talking about. What is possible that's a little common sense activity. He says, unfortunately,

most military books, strategy and tactics are emphasized at the expense of the administrative factors. So it's the same thing with business too. Like the logistics of business. You can do good on the front end, right? Making a good product, designing a good product, marketing a good product.

But logistics wins wars and logistics is what keeps you in the game in business as well. So you got to be professional to make that stuff. happen kind of pretty much any operations so for whatever reason I thought of concerts you know like or like some music festival right you always are like oh it's a good festival but then you when you think of a festival or a concert we'll say with poor logistics then you got bathroom

issues you got trash issues you got all you know you have congestion issues you got woodstock 1999 right all these people like it went crazy a documentary called fire festival The guy had like a party or something, like a big concert party on some island somewhere. And they did not have good logistics. Right. Everything went to shit. Yeah.

I thought that was like the scam one. I think it may have been viewed as a scam once it was over because the way everything logistically fell apart. You know, like we don't, bands show up to play and there's nowhere for them to plug in their equipment. Right. You flew us out here.

We want our money. and then, you know, so it probably, I don't think, well, I'd have to rewatch it. I don't know if it was a intended scam, but I think it ended up being just such a logistical, logistical failure. It's exactly what we're talking about. You're right. Like such a logistical failure that it'd be like if you paid whatever, $500 to go to this festival and then you got there and there was no food, no water, nowhere to go to the bathroom.

Right. You would think that that was a scam. you think this guy took my money and didn't get you know deliver any product so that seems like a scam I think he just logistically did not do it right and and and that does make sense especially like you know as far as you talking about this uh that element from the book where you don't think of that on the front end you know you don't think about like oh I can't wait to go to this freaking guns and roses concert because of the bathroom yeah spaces you know like there's so many bathrooms there it's so like you don't think about that part of it even though that part of it is probably more foundational to the whole experience yeah i just saw guns and roses i'm trying to i'm gonna coordinate with jack osborne and come and debrief the black sabbath last concert you know obviously with his dad his dad dying a couple weeks after that we haven't really gotten around to it but logistically it was incredible the way they pulled it off but you mentioned guns and roses yeah yeah yeah

Guns and Roses, dude, they crushed. And Guns and Roses played deep cuts. They played deep Black Sabbath cuts. Because the way they put that whole show together, they had a bunch of different bands. And every band played like one, two, or three of their own songs and one, two, or three of Black Sabbath songs with very,

and then there were super groups that came out. So it was awesome. But Guns are, look, I try not to get engaged in the comments, right, about stuff. But I saw some people. saying some negative things about guns and roses. Yeah. And man, they rocked and they played deep cuts and good for.

Sorry. I just went in a little logistical aspect there. Yeah, but, but it's a lot of, when you go through the experience of whatever, those logistics when they're handled properly versus improperly are such a big deal. Oh, yeah. And so I went to this place, did the monster. No, no, no, it was the monster. The muster.

So at the muster though, logistically, it is such a, we focus so much on logistics for this very reason. Yeah. Because if it takes, if you show up to the muster, which is an event, we have an actual point, if you show up to the muster and it takes you, you know, an hour to check in and register, you're like, dude, what is, like, this is,

why am I standing in line? Yeah. We, at the muster, it takes, we get it done. Like, you will register in 30 seconds. Like, everything is streamlined. Everything is, because, We realize that we're being judged. It's like you're saying you judge stuff on logistics.

The muster is judged at least at some level on the logistics of the operation. Because if we at Eschleon Front as a leadership consultancy can't run a squared away event, then why would you talk to us? Why would you listen to us? You wouldn't. So logistics are key. Proceed. Sorry.

Yeah. Because again, when you go through the. the overall experience. Again, since it's not the since logistics is not the front running element that you kind of pay attention to, you don't think about it, but when you actually go through it, you'd be surprised.

Okay, so I was at this place doing a video and it was a location, right? And it was a business where, okay, it was a gym. It wasn't victory. It was a different gym. Victory is almost open. I've never been to this gym before. So I come and, you know, you go on the map or whatever,

and I go to the gym and there's no parking lot for this gym at all. It's a big, kind of a big gym too. There's no parking lot. You just park on the street, surrounding streets. And I remember thinking, I would never join this gym now just because of the parking. Like to go to the gym and then to contend with parking, it's like, bro, that takes away about 90% of the gym experience right there for me.

That's how I was feeling in the moment. So you'm saying? But you never really think about that. See what I'm saying? You obviously thought about it. Oh, yeah, when you're in the moment. But before that, you know, you're thinking about, oh, how, you know, what kind of weight set.

Oh, I see what you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even all the way down to like, what does the lighting look like? How many mirrors? You know, like all these details about the gym, but not the logistical part of it. Yep. Logistics wins wars. And you got to know them.

Fast forward a little bit. In conclusion, I wonder if you realize what a very complicated business this modern soldiering is. A commander today has to learn to handle air forces, armored mechanical vehicles, anti-aircraft artillery, he has to consider the use of gas and smoke offensively and defensively to know enough of wireless to make proper use of it for communication, to understand something of the art of camouflage, of the business of propaganda, to keep himself up to date in their developments of military engineering, all of this in addition to the more normal requirements of his trade. On the battlefield, of course, conditions are completely different.

in the conditions of the late war, no battalion commander launching his reserve company had anything like such a clear picture of the situation as any of these while the commander-in-chief was not on the battlefield at all, but sitting in an office many miles back or recklessly pacing the garden of a chateau waiting for news that seemed to never come. And when it came was usually misleading. So you're going to be making decisions. you're not going to be there. And I kind of skipped over a part where he was talking about how previous commanders in different wars, whether it was Marlboro, Napoleon or Wellington,

they would move to a place where they could kind of watch things unfold. And that is very important for your, you know, to lead. But these guys, they're like back from the lines and you can't get up there because of modern warfare is just different. I was talking to a, wildland firefighter the other day.

And she was saying that she was like, I think they called a, she was in charge of a big fire that was happening. And as her firefighters were fighting the fire, she had to move across the valley to the other ridge line where the fire wasn't. So she could observe what the fire was doing and then call them.

Because, you know, what can you see when you're fighting a forest fire? You can see like fire and trees. Yeah. She had to move into basically an elevated position where she could watch what was happening and give directions. So sometimes, you know, that's what you have to do. But in this case, in this modern warfare case, you get separated to a point where you actually can't visually see and you're having to assemble misleading information to try and make decisions. And if you don't make any decisions, obviously that's going to be failures.

So you've got to do something. You've got to make something happen. So that's the way this modern warfare happens. As much as you want to get into the high ground and watch what's happening, like my friend Mo Mo is doing, you don't get that opportunity. Fast forward a little bit. The commander with the imagination, the genius. This is a, sorry, this is a part about military genius. The commander with the imagination, the genius, in fact, to use the new forces may have his name written among the great captains.

But he will not win that title lightly or easily. consider for a moment the qualifications he will require on the ground he will have to have he will have to handle forces moving at a speed and ranging at a distance far exceeding that of the most mobile cavalry of the past a study of naval strategy and tactics as well as those of cavalry will be essentially essential to him it seems to me immaterial whether he is a soldier who has really studied the air or an airman who has really studied land forces it is the combination of the two never the action of one alone that will bring success for a future war you got to understand air and war and this is a this reminds me of jiu jitsu when you're when you get I would say it's a mid to high blue belt level is when people start to use their arms and legs at the same time because sometimes you know you have to use them together you have to be using you have to be moving your arms and you have to be moving your legs at the same time, but the human mind doesn't do that very well.

And it's like, have you ever played drums before? Yeah, I actually have. Like, yeah, I, I've, I've never really played them, but like I'll get on the kit sometimes and bang out a couple songs, right? My right hand and right foot might as well be tied together because they will not do something different. And my left hand and left foot might as well be tied together too. Because they're going to do this, they're going to move together.

That's just the way they are. Right. And you can train yourself out of it. That's something I look forward to doing in a few years. I'm going to learn to do that. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to learn how to make my right foot and my right hand do something different than my left foot and my left hand do something different.

But when people do jitsu, they get that stage where you'll be like, hey, you need to do this. You know, you need to frame over here and push their hip this way with your hand. And then when they do that, they stop moving their feet. Right. And then when you tell them, hey, man, you've got to make that hook down there with your foot. And they'll be like, cool, but then they stop moving their upper body. Yeah. So you have to use both.

There's a lot of things that could because it kind of becomes this physical language, right? All these, even drums, piano is another one where it's like you're kind of playing on one side. And, you know, you're kind of using both as like, what's that thing when you're a little kid? You pat your head and rub your stomach or whatever. It's kind of that really. Yep. But for a different intention. So it's like, yeah, it becomes because Sam Harris talks about this where it's like two different parts of.

of your brain. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So like one is like, if you translate a different language to English word for word, you're not really kind of speaking the language. You gotta just understand just saying it, you know, this jiu-jitsu scenario, you're like, okay, consciously, okay, I gotta put my hand here, I gotta put my foot here, or whatever, you're not speaking the language yet.

After a while, your body just does it. Yeah, you see what I'm saying? So it's like, yeah, two different things like that. Yeah, Jack. Continue on here. Add to this. So he says you gotta be able to do. do both air and land add to this and see add to this that the commander's studies must have a

background of solid common sense and a knowledge of humanity on huge peculiarities and not those machines the whole practice of warfers is ultimately based so there you go like it hey we're talking about all these different weapons systems and air and land and sea naval power and all this stuff but it's ultimately just humans you got no humans fast forward a little bit this section is called the general and his troops. I now want you to consider the general in relation to his troops. I will begin with a few words about his staff. Where are the means by which he controls and directs his army? I'll give you two simple rules which every general should observe. First, never try to do his own staff work. And secondly, never to let his staff get between him and his troops. What a staff

appreciates is that it should receive clear and definitive instructions and then be left to work out the details without interference. What troops and subordinate commanders appreciate is that the general should be constantly in personal contact with them and should not see everything simply through the eyes of his staff. The less time a general spends in his office and the more with his troops, the better. So that is one thing that's a little bit of a curveball is he says never try to do his own staff work. You know, my first one, when I read that, I was like, oh, yeah, you can't, you don't have the time to be doing this staff stuff.

I was thinking of it from a time management perspective, but he's talking about a micromanagement perspective that if I'm doing your job for you, Echo, you're not doing your job. I'm focused on that. You're not, like, it's just, it's centralized command is what he's talking about. And then obviously getting out with the troops, that's what you need to do. as fast forward a little bit as to a general's relations with his subordinate commanders it happened it is important to him to know their characteristics which must be held back and which urged

on which can be trusted with an independent mission and which must be kept under his own eye some want very detailed and precise orders other others merely a general indication There are many generals who are excellent executive commanders, as long as they are controlled by a higher commander, but who get out of their depth at once and sometimes lose their nerve if given independent command. Others are difficult subordinates, but may be trusted on their own. It is important not to get these two sorts mixed. In other words, a higher commander must be a good judge of character. And we've seen this over and over and over again. Everyone's got their own little personalities.

And decentralized command might mean, oh, echo, I can kind of let him do whatever he wants. Fred, I got to keep close control over him. We as leaders have to know which is which. Fast forward. Now to come to the general's relations with the troops themselves, you will realize what a wide subject it is and how impossible to dogmatize about. The outlook of the officer, the regimental officer differs naturally from that of the men. and different nationalities demand different treatment. Meza enfants, my children, says the French men,

and may speak of the glory of the fatherland. Men, says the Englishmen on rare occasions when he feels called on to address his troops collectively. Comrades, says the Soviet Russian. The German commander of the future will perhaps cause a thrill of pride to run through the ranks with a cry of fellow Aryans. But whatever the nationality, whatever the condition, there remains the basic problem. What induces the man to risk his life bravely?

And what is the general's part in fostering his endurance? No man wants to die. What causes him to face death? Maybe a hope of loot or glory, discipline and tradition, devotion to cause or country, devotion to a man. Glory or loot appeals to few these days. Nor indeed is much glory or loot to be had. Decorations and promotions count for something, but may cause much heart burning unless

carefully distributed. Belief in a cause may count for much, especially if fostered by mass propaganda, yet there is truth in the following from a book on the late war. So here's a quote. A man does not flee because he is fighting an unrighteous cause. He does not attack because his cause is just. He flees because he is the weaker. He conquers because he is the stronger

or because his leader has made him feel the stronger. It's weird when you break down stuff like that, right? Yeah, totally. Like why did he lose the fight? He was weaker. Why did he start backing away? He was being overpowered. That's what causes the troops to keep pushing

because they think they can win. They believe they can win. They believe they're stronger. I've always kept the idea that I'm not going to get into a fight that I'm not going to win. And I'm not going to get into an argument that I'm not going to win, by the way. So if you hear me arguing with someone, which you hear very seldomly, but if you hear me contending with someone, if you can put money on me because I know I'm going to win. If you're arguing with me, now if we're having a discussion and I'm asking you earnest questions, I'm open-minded. I may be right.

It might be wrong. I might be having an idea of what the deal is or not what, you know, but I'd, but not confirmed of it. But if you hear me, if you hear me saying, no, we should not do it like that. You should put money on me.

Because I know I'm right. How often have you heard me say I know I'm right? I can't remember you saying that ever. Yeah. So it's going to be very, very seldom. Yeah. So you,

getting in entanglements where you think you're going to lose is not a smart move. And I don't do that. it. Now here it goes, continuing on with why are guys going to fight, right? But tradition and discipline anyway, so far as the British are concerned, are the real root of the matter.

I have not the time here to enter into any discussion on the subject of discipline. I will only remark that with the, that with national armies, as all armies, even the British, will be in a future war and general education, discipline should be a different matter from the old traditional military discipline. It has changed greatly since I joined and is changing still. But whatever the system, it is the general's business to see justice done. And here we're talking about like, you know, military discipline for not doing the right thing. The soldier does not mind a severe code provided it is administered fairly and reasonably.

As an instance, here is the verdict of a private soldier on Crawford, in the retreat to Karuna. If he flogged two, he saved hundreds from death. Discipline apart, the soldier's chief cares are. First, his personal comfort, so this is what a soldier cares about. His personal comfort, i.e. regular rations, proper clothing, good billets, and proper hospital arrangements. And secondly, his personal safety, i.e. that he shall be put into a fight with as good a chance

as possible of victory and survival. Those two things combined, guns and butter, in other words. So are you putting me in a situation where, like, I don't have a really good chance of winning, or at least as good a chance as I can possibly have of winning? If you're not doing that for me, it's going to be a problem. And have you given me food when you can and clothing when you can and gear when I can?

If you haven't done that, that's a problem. It's funny to think about, like, in the SEAL teams, everyone's always trying to, like, get gear. Everyone's trying to get more gear. And I've never really thought of it as such a morale boost, you know? It's for the, if I would have known that back then, I'd be like, sir, we need to get these new boots. Why do you need them? Well, you know, first of all, for this type of environment we're going into, but also for the morale of the troops.

Modern generals are hardly known to the large armies they command. But without placing himself and fast forward a little bit, but without placing himself at the head of his troops, In battle, a modern commander can still exercise a very real influence over the morale of his men. An outstanding example is Allenby's regeneration of the Egyptian expeditionary force in the summer of 1917 after their two repulses at Gaza in the spring of that year. Australians are not easily impressed by British generals, but the following extract from the Australian official history shows the impression made by Allenby. And here we go, quote, there was nothing familiar about Allenby's touch with his regiments. battalions he went through the hot dusty camps of his army like a strong fresh reviving wind he would dash up in his car to a light horse regiment shake hands

with a few officers inspect hurriedly but with a sure eye to good and bad points the horses of perhaps a single squadron and be gone in a few minutes leaving a great trail of dust behind him his tall and massive but restlessly active figure his keen eyes and prominent hooked nose his terse and forcible speech and his imperious bearing radiated an impression of tremendous resolution quick decision and steely discipline within a week of his arrival allanby had stamped his personality on the mind of every trooper of the horse and every infantryman of the line so you can have an impact and this is an interesting little section here should a general address his troops collectively or individually or individually. I only I think if he has a gift that way, a gift not of eloquence necessarily, but of saying the right thing.

He must be very sure of himself. He risks more loss of reputation than he is likely to gain. An unfortunate remark or tone or even appearance may lower his stock and do more harm than good. So you guys like, you know, as a leader, you got to watch it if you're going to be talking. You got to be careful if you're going to run your suck, as we say. I've been to a couple.

I've been to, I've been to, I don't want to exaggerate, but I've been to some briefs in my time where I was completely demotivated by what was being said. You know what I mean? You're like, dude. And sometimes I've had the sad occasion where my troops, my troops are getting collectively briefed to. by someone and it's landing so wrong and you're like bro just I wish you wouldn't have said anything you know and and sometimes trying to say something you know like cool or whatever that can backfire in a kind of a big way too sometimes you know if you just if you're not sure if you should talk

be brief be bold be gone as as uh Megan major Megan McClung uh was known to say be brief be bold be gone Like if you don't if you don't if you don't if you're talking to the troops and you're not really sure Brother just say something quick you know don't try don't try and be Shakespeare out here Just try and say something quick be brief be bold be gone Um Now this is we're going back to the temper So we're going to set back we're going to get back to temper Explosions of temper do not necessarily ruin a general's reputation or influence with his troops

So so he says it doesn't necessarily ruin it Right. So that's a pretty negative statement. It's saying, look, it does kind of ruin it, but not necessarily. He says it is almost expected of them, which I think is bullshit, especially in this day and age. And it is not always resented, sometimes even admired, except by those of my deeply concerned. I just don't think that to be true. I disagree.

And it's kind of weird hearing that from a Brit because Brits are, you know, stiff upper lip. Yeah, kind of proper. Yeah. Kind of like limited emotions. especially British officers. So this one kind of hit me out a little bit out of left field. I just don't agree with it. I don't,

I've never, the only thing I guess maybe is what you pointed out earlier. And I think this happens with kids. And I've talked about this with J.P. to Nell is like when you see your, when you're a little kid and you see your dad loses temper and it seems like kind of a superpower because everyone kind of gets out of their way and like, okay, I guess we're just going to do what dad says. That can rub off.

where now you think like, oh, other people are kind of thinking that. But then you forget that other people are now 24. And you're like, bro, what do you? You can't control your freaking temper. You're yelling and screaming. What's wrong with you? Yeah. Maybe that's, maybe that's why they, the British kind of consider this to be the case

because culturally, they don't lose their temper. Culturally everyone's like, so when they do, it's kind of like this big deal. It's kind of this exceptional moment. Is you what I'm saying? Yeah. Because if it's not an exceptional moment, that's kind of like, bro, this guy's flying off the handle again. You've got to get,

you know, get his act together kind of a thing. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I'll go with, hey, it doesn't necessarily ruin

your leadership capital. Yeah. Necessarily. But chances are, chances are like, it ain't good. I could see, like, let's say you're a good,

really good leader and somebody does something that's out of line and you, you show some emotion and anger towards them. And then everyone goes, damn, dude, you like, you know, Echo just said, hey, he's really, he's really serious about, like,

we can't, whatever, we can't show up late, like, we're going to be. So I think that might be the situation where you could kind of get away with it, but even that is like a stretch for me. Yeah, you're right. It feels like you kind of got to thread a needle, like, very specifically to pull that off where it's, like, effective. And then you can only do it one or two times, like I said. In your life.

Yeah. Like, in your, in your inner workings with that team, like, you just cannot be. Basically, anytime that you come off as overreacting, you're going to jam yourself up pretty much. So if you do it often, I feel like that's overreacting. It also has one sentence here. It says, but sarcasm is always resented and seldom forgiven. I was kind of a little bit surprised at that.

I get it. You got to be careful with sarcasm, sarcasm, especially in a leadership position, because it cuts way deeper than you mean it to. So you got to be careful with that. But being resented seems a little bit strong. I feel like sarcasm is humor, right? Would you say?

To me, the rule has always been since I was a kid up until literally right this moment. The rule is if it's more funny that it is insulting, you're clear. It's valid. Exactly right. But I think you're, I think you're right though where yeah when you're the leader it cuts different like you because the subordinate will be like oh wait is he serious like you know is there a for real problem within that joke you know kind of a thing so yeah it makes sense it's not even you know but peer to peer that's the rule yeah yeah um speaking of humor should the high commander have a sense of humor certainly a sense of humor is good for anyone but he must not display it too much or too often I'm I'm okay with that.

that we had the one guy at the muster a long time ago says uh you know hey i'm a guy i like to joke around i like to get my shots in and no one takes me seriously i was like hey bro stop making so many jokes same thing here the british soldier fast forward a little bit the british soldier himself is one of the world's greatest humorous that humorous race that i'm sorry this was funny i just had to read this that unhumorous race the germans held an investigation after the late war into the causes of morale and attributed much of the british soldiers staying power to his sense of humor they therefore decided to instill this sense into their own soldiers and included in their manuals in order to cultivate it they gave an illustration in the manual one of baron's father's pictures of old bill sitting in a building with an enormous shell hole in the wall. A new chum asks, what made that hole? Mice replies old bill.

So they got this, you know, a picture and there's a big shell hole in the wall and the old salty soldiers sitting there and the new guy's like, what made that hole? And the guy goes, mice. And then it says, in the German manual, a solemn footnote of explanation is added. It was, quote, it was not mice. It was a shell. So they had to like explain their humor.

And I thought that was pretty funny. Fast forward. In the lecture hall of a French infantry school, which I once attended, was written the following from Ardante DuPique, which we covered his work on this podcast. We covered this quote as well. The man is the first weapon of battle. Let us then study the soldier in battle for is he who brings reality to it. Only study of the past can give us a sense of reality. and show us how the soldier will fight in the future.

I've got to know people. It kind of goes into that a little bit here. To learn that Napoleon won the campaign of 1796 by maneuver on interior lines or some such phrase is of little value. So like whatever tactics and actual battlefield maneuver Napoleon used doesn't really matter. It's a little value. If you can discover how a young unknown man inspired a ragged mutinist, half-starved army and made it fight how he gave it the energy and momentum to march and fight as it did

How he dominated and controlled generals older and more experience than himself Then you will have learned something Napoleon did not gain the position he did so much by a study of rules and strategy as by a profound knowledge of human nature in war Well, it goes back to human nature once again echo Charles A story of him in his early days shows his knowledge of psychology. When an artillery officer, when he was an artillery officer at the siege of Toulon, he built a battery in such an exposed position that he was told he would never find men to hold it. He put up a placard that said, the battery of men without fear. And it was always manned.

It goes into this a little bit. Here are a few principles that seem to me to embody the practice of successful commanders in their relations with their troops. A general must keep strict, though not necessarily stern discipline. And again, you're going to find a little nice dichotomy, balancing of dichotomies here. He should give praise where praise is due, ungrudgely by word of mouth or written order. He should show himself as frequently as possible to his troops and as impressively as possible. Ceremonial has its uses.

He should never indulge in sarcasm, which is being clever at someone else's expense and always offense. Maybe they have like a little bit more of a nuanced, specific definition of sarcasm being very directed at a person. he should tell his soldiers the truth save when absolutely necessary to conceal plants etc few things annoy the soldier more in the late war than the acts than the extracts published by the intelligence to make out that the german soldiers were fighting badly etc when the soldier knew they were fighting as stoutly as ever and we'll close out this section of the book to sum up the relationship between a general and his troops is very much like that between the rider and his horse. The horse must be controlled and disciplined and yet encouraged.

He should, according to an old hunting maxim, be cared for in the stable as if he was worth 500 pounds and ridden in the field as if he were not worth half a crown. and the horse knows not only by his own comfort, whether he's being rid ridden well or badly, but he knows if his rider is bold or frightened, determined, or hesitating. A general must drive his men at times. Some of the best and most successful riders and horse masters are not those who are fondest of horses. A general may succeed for some time in persuading his superiors that he,

he is a good commander, he will never persuade his army that he is a good commander unless he has the real qualities of one. And I got a little bit, a little bit touched or perturbed or a little bit annoyed by the statement that some of the best and most successful riders and horse masters are not those who are fondest of horses. Because for me, if you're not a guy that loves your troops, loves your soldiers, then we got a problem. Because we had to care about our soldiers more than anything. But then I thought about this, and I think this is where I'm going to take it anyways.

You know, you get dogs and someone that just spoils a dog, what kind of dog do you end up with? Spoiled dog. Spoiled dog. Someone that just spoils their kids, what do you end up with? Are they going to be functional kids? Are they going to reach their maximum potential? We know that they're not.

So you have to, you can't overly care. You can't care to the point that you are not willing to push them. And what's the word he used? Yeah, drive, right? You've got to push your kids. You got to push your troops. You got to make sure that they're, you know, that they're learning the path of discipline.

And if you don't do that, they're not going to reach their potential. And if all you did with your troops was, oh, you guys want to go home? Oh, you guys want to go to the bar tonight. Oh, you guys don't want to come into work tomorrow. If that's what you do with your troops, you're not making good troops, and they're going to regret it. It's going to be worse for them. But I love that kind of point that I close with. He will never persuade his army that is a good commander unless he has the real qualities of one.

And like what that means to me is you can't fake it, man. The horse knows you're faking it. Have you ever ridden a horse before? Yeah. Yeah. The horse knows you're faking it. For real. Yeah, they know.

You talk to anybody. Like, those horses know what you're thinking. Pretty much kind of more than you do. You know, you go with Iris Gardner on a horse. Like, she will tell you like, hey, you're acting nervous. You're like, what are you talking about? Like, no, the horse can see it. The horse can feel it.

And dogs do that to some extent, too. Yeah, that's what I remember Mike Ritalin said that. Yeah. Where he put it in, I'm totally paraphrasing, but he was like, hey, you know when like a person walks in a room, for example? And they're, like, fidgeting and their eyes are darting around. And, you know, you. you can pick up on that on a person right so dogs they have that sense with you where so if you're

like nervous they can feel your nervousness you know it's like huh it makes sense because dogs don't talk to you you know so that's kind of all they have is their little vibe sensory scenario you know yeah i used to have that with my wife when when odin was out and about she she would get nervous when he was around other dogs, right? Because, oh, is he going to bark? He's going to lunge, like, you know, kind of like a level of embarrassment. You know what I mean?

Like, I'm a little bit embarrassed. If he barks at this dog, it's a little bit embarrassing. And what did that nervousness do? Made Oden think like, oh, this dog that's walking towards me is a problem. Right. And guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to bark. I'm going to let him know, do not be a problem with my mom over here.

Yeah. So her being concerned that he was going to bark made him bark. Yeah. Yeah. So I had to be like, oh, just like, it's okay. Just chill and have good time. And it chilled them out. Yeah.

But you're, yeah, you got to be careful with that. But the dog knows, the horse knows and your team knows. Then you can't, you can't fake it. It's not one of those situations fake it until you make it. They will pick up on it. So we'll hit some of the remaining sections of this book on the next podcast. We'll talk about the soldier and the statement. We'll talk about unorthodox soldiers.

What it means to be a good soldier? Very interesting. take he's got on that and then how to command and then some other rules and strategies of war which obviously um transferred over to the rest of our lives given plenty of work with today lots of work to make us better and there's always work that we have to do to make us better hey mental work but remember there's a lot of physical things as that as that leader you got to be physically ready to withstand the shock of war and look the shock of war might not come from war might come from life. In fact, I'll tell you what, it will come from life. So that means we're going to be physically

ready, mentally ready. That means we're training. And when we're lifting, you're back on the mats of justice there, Echo Charles. Yeah, yeah, you know, a little bit here and there. Back in the game, as they say, what you roll with. You know, actually an old friend, Scott Cruz, who used to, I don't know what belt he is. He got his blue belt back in 18, so this, you know, experienced guy, but good guy. He used to work for with my brother back in the day. And then, and, Anthony. Unchained fit, you know, did some rounds. And then, well, oh, Dr. Luke, of course. As always, Dr. Lucie bohas. But yeah, yeah, it's good. So when we're training, lifting,

need fuel. We recommend jocco fuel. Now, is it true? Echo Charles, that Echo Charles is in a little bit of a cut phase right now. Thank you. Are we cutting? Yeah, we're in a cut phase. Okay. You know, time to get shredded, summer shred, is that what we're doing? Well, yeah, yeah, we'll call it that. Hell yeah. I mentioned. to you um jaco fuel burner yeah which you have not tried no so i've tried it because i like to try the various products and one thing that is really kind of surprising is the is the like hunger diminishment when you take it it's got like the you know the the herbs in it to mitigate

hunger yeah and that seems like oh that seems like a little bit of voodoo but man i'm i'm I'm telling you if you take some of that. Look, it also's got some caffeine in it. So it gives you a little bit of that too. But man, it definitely quells your hunger if you want to try it. Oh, yeah. Flee. Obviously, we got weight cutting that goes on in my family.

Yeah. You know, we got various, various athletes that are in the weight cutting programs for various combat sports. And so, yeah, that burner stuff is really kind of good to go. And it's kind of good to go. Like I said, I was telling you before we hit record. today is let's say you let's say you normally like I normally eat around like 10 if I normally eat around 10 I would take that burner stuff at like 945 maybe 930 930 935 and you're not

hungry you know and the end you feel good so joccofuel.com you can get burner you can get protein you can get energy you can get hydration you can get joint warfare you can get Time War, man, I recommend you to take time more. Time war just freaking GTG. Because let's face it. We don't want to know about that 67, 70 year old situation. We ain't looking for that.

But that's what's happening. So, you know, try where we're fighting that war. Time war. Time war. The Time war is effective. Well, yeah. When that day comes, where do you want to be? You want to be still in the game. Still in the game.

You're good. be 70 yeah it's coming for some people for a lot of people yeah yeah yeah so on that day comes i'm over here staying 33 stay in 33 dude hey jacofuel dot com check it out also check out origin usa dot com we got all kinds of like new products coming out do you see we're coming out with some surf shorts like board shorts yeah so okay all right super stoked on that we got the little cargo pockets so we're all happy you know it's listen are these the shorts for surfers No, because actual, if you're going surfing in Hawaii, you're gonna wear surf shorts that are meant for surfing.

They might have like a little tiny pocket, but they're, they're just a little bit different. These are board shorts for life. Hybrid, you know, they're, yeah, they're meant they have, they got a pocket, you can put your wallet in there, put your, put your keys in there or whatever. And yet, dual purpose, like you said, Like did you hey look do we need to jump in the water

Make a save or whatever Maybe do it So we got that we have all kinds of good stuff at origin USA.com 100% 100% American made So check that out Also this Jocco store Be gonna look up for some new stuff on there As always what's going on right now get after it

That's gonna be the newest one coming out any day Now I can't say when Because you know it depends on some things But if you want to know when just sign up on the email list It's at the bottom of the page jocco store.com But yeah some good stuff good discipline equals freedom you know you want to represent that's where you can get it the shirt locker is in full swing has been for years so people like that one people like that one so yeah if you're

thinking about it never pulled the trigger on it you can go you can check out what it's all about on the page click on the top says join the shirt lock and you can see what it's all about you know subscription scenario new design every month it's good is it true that when you were a little kid and you got new sneakers you could run a little bit faster and jump a little bit higher that is 100% Is it true that when you get a Jocko store shirt, you're a little bit more disciplined and a little bit more focused? That is true. Yeah, it is. Check.

JoccoStore.com. Also, we got some books. Put Your Legs on by Rob Jones. We got Dave Burke's book, Needlead. We got things my brother used to say by Ryan Mannion. We got Warrior Kid books. We got extreme ownership, all those. You guys know the deal.

You can check those out. Also, we have leadership consultancy, echelonfront.com. You heard me mentioned a couple times today. We do live events. One is called the muster. If you want to come and check out logistical flow, come to the muster, check it out, and then you can learn how we make that happen. So that is at Ashlamfront.com.

We have online learning as well, teaching these skills of leadership. Because listen, you heard me talking about it today. Hey, are you born with all the great qualities of a natural leader? Maybe. Maybe you got a seven in this category and a, nine in that category, but a five over in this other one. So we can maybe bump that nine to a nine, five, maybe bump that four up to a seven. You see what I'm saying?

We can get better across the board. Then are we a better leader? Yes, we are. You can do that right from the comfort of your own home. Eschalongfront.com. Check it out the skills of leadership. Check out primalbeef.com. Get yourself some steak.

That's what we're doing. Also, if you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help out their families gold star families go to mom liese website mark lee's mom she actually gave an amazing speech this past weekend at the ready first reunion down in four plus Texas gave an amazing speech just about mark and what we're all doing here trying to be better do better be more and give more So if you want to help out America's Mighty Warriors, check out that website, America's mighty warriors.org.

You can donate or you can get involved. Also check out heroes and horses.org and finally Jimmy Mays organization beyond the brotherhood.org. You can also check us out. You can check out jocco.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocco Willink.

Echoes at Echo Charles. Just be careful because there's an algorithm and it'll consume your brain if you're not careful. And even if you are careful, it can still consume. your brain. It's called brain rot. They have a name for it. Yeah. Yeah. And now it's brain rot plus A.I slop. Oh, yeah. It's like slop rot coming at you. And speaking of soldiers and soldiering,

the title of the book we read today, we are grateful for all of our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines who are deployed around the globe right now protecting freedom and our way of life. We thank you. Also thanks to police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMT, dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service as well as all other first responders who are deployed around our country right now protecting us here at home and for everyone else out there I think it's important to remember this concept that we went over today from field marshal wayvel and that is the relationship between being lucky and being bold you're not going to get lucky if you're not bold you have to step up you have to make things happen you have to be default aggressive

And if you are default aggressive, and if you are proactive, and you do have a bias for action, the luck will come. In order to make that happen, well, go out there and get after it. That's all we've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.