Jocko Podcast - 547: How to Master Uncertainty. With (Ret) SEAL Commander, Rich Diviney

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< Retired Navy SEAL officer Rich Diviney returns to break down why fear isn't the enemy—uncertainty is. From combat and BUD/S to business and everyday life, Rich explains practical methods for staying composed under pressure, overcoming anxiety, and performing when the stakes are highest.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 547 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. What if I told you that your past stumbles were merely echoes, not edicts, of your potential? Imagine what's possible if you unleashed the natural prowess within you akin to the seals achieving their caliber of precision and resolve. Now imagine what's possible when this intrinsic ability is not just developed in you, but in every team you're part of. Consider the possibility of transforming life's trials into triumphs. You can consistently steer through frustrations and setbacks, always maximizing the chances of success.

Seals and other high achievers, anyone who is adept in any circumstance, are fundamentally similar to everyone else. Their edge is simply that they harness innate yet often overlooked capabilities that we all possess. As masters of uncertainty, they are well-practiced, experts of navigating the intrinsic unpredictability of life and you can be one too it merely requires a shift in perspective and applying one method that enables you to invigorate a suite of innate talents already within your grasp mastering uncertainty isn't akin to wielding a superpower over a decade of coaching elite performers has shown me that their standout performance doesn't stem from mysterious talents

And that right there is an excerpt from a book called Masters of Uncertainty, the Navy SEAL way to turn stress into success for you and your team. The book is written by Rich DeVinny, who is a retired SEAL officer who led troops in combat, directed operations during 11 deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. And on top of his combat deployments, he also oversaw the assessment and selection process for the Navy. maritime component of the joint special operations command known as J-Soc. He's been on this podcast before episode 374 when we discussed his life, his experiences, and his last and his first book called The Attributes, 25 Hidden Drivers of Optimal Performance. And it's an honor to have him with us here again tonight to share some pointers on striving

to become a master of uncertainty. Rich, thanks for joining us again, man. Yeah, thanks for having me back. Good to be here. Notice I said striving to become a master because it's like, let's face it, the minute we start saying we're a master of anything, well, you're not.

That's when we get in trouble. That's right. And Huberman wrote Andrew Huberman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, wrote the forward. So you've obviously, I know you guys are buddies. We've talked about that before, but a little forward by Dr. Andrew Huberman, putting out his word in the book.

And it's interesting how many of the things that I was doing, that I had no idea why I was doing them until I talked to him about a lot of that stuff and realized that a lot of the things that I did and that we did and that we learned, even though we didn't really know why we did it, we might not know the physiology behind it in a lot of situations, but they work. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a good place to start. I mean, when he and I first met, we immediately bonded because he was running his fear lab

up there in Stanford. And his fear lab was really interesting. It's basically a VR room, and he'd put someone in a headset, hook up up to nodes and things like that. And he could put the flavor of fear, whatever that person. So driving with great white sharks was one. I remember if you were afraid of heights, he could put you on the top of two buildings. You'd have to walk over or walk across a plank, attacked by spiders, whatever it is.

But then monitor the physiological effects of that. And so I was certainly fascinated with what he was doing in the lab. And then he was really fascinated with what we do in real world. Like how do we manage ourselves through this type of stuff? And that's when we really started collecting this information, kind of thinking about this stuff. And we thought about this. This book is actually a book I've always wanted to write because we started working on this together. The attributes I wrote first, and probably better because it's a lot of stuff there's kind of a good foundation.

But the attributes simply, as we'll talk about, is one element of what you need to know about yourself to actually step more effectively into uncertainty. Because it's never really going to be pretty. even if you're, like you said, you can't call yourself a master, but even if you're really good at it, it's still not going to feel necessarily good. You're just going to be, you know how to move through it. That's the idea. Yeah, that's funny.

In the last book, the attributes you were talking about parachuting and your stand. And you were talking about the fact that you don't like it. That's right. You're like, I don't like this stuff. And I realized, actually, Chris Williamson asked me a question on his podcast, you know, about, oh, dealing with fear. And I was like, go. And what I realized is, you know, you start off,

they condition. you to deal with fear because the first thing you're going to do is climb over the cargo net right and that's pretty tall if you're scared of heights that sucks it does suck i'll tell someone who does like heights it does suck yeah every time and then it's the uh and then it's the slide for life where you're kind of hanging yourself out over whatever 40 foot drop or something like that and then you're going to repel out of the tower and then you're going to repel out of a helicopter and then you're going to static line jump in each one of those and then you're going to free fall and you're going to free fall at night they're going to free fall at night with combat equipment on o2 it's

an escalation each time. It is. And each time you learn how to overcome that thing, hopefully. Well, I would say this, because the fear never leaves. What you learn are the processes by which you can move through them. Because, again, and I would, yeah, I would say there is an element of truth to fear inoculation and distress inoculation. So what I would do, for example, for the cargo net, because I don't like heights, which is ironic

because I love flying. And I'm learning how to fly now. But I would literally time my runs to go past that cargo net. and I'd climb up it and I'd just sit at the top and I'd breathe in that fear, you know, and I'd do that over and over again. Of course, as I did that, if I did that every day or, you know, for a couple weeks, then slowly I would stop being as afraid up there. So a fear inoculation does exist, just like if we'd sometimes do jump trips and you'd do like

50 jumps in a week, you know, by jump 50, you're not really thinking about the fear anymore. But take a break. That tends to atrophy and the fear will come back. And so the secrets, I think, to the success of training. training pipelines like the seals or any other, you know, hardcore military unit is that they inadvertently teach you how to step through that stuff constantly. Because again, combat is going to be like that. You're not going to be able to expect what's coming on. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, uh, I was skiing last year. And it was like in the spring and there

wasn't much snow, but there was like still some hard terrain. And I was with another guy and he's a good skier. I'm a good skier. And we kind of got out on the sketchy, sketchy piece of terrain. And I'm looking down and it's a sketchy drop and you can see rocks and it's steep and there's no runout. And I remember I started to have thoughts about like things that could have. And then I just went. And I just like, looking back, I was like, oh, I just, I felt some sort of hesitation. And it was like, okay, go. Yes. Because sitting up here is not going to help you. You're going to imagine all kinds of torn ACLs and broken necks and, uh, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so I just looking back, I realized, oh, yeah, whenever I was, you know, whether it was

the cargo net or jumping out of a plane or going through a breach, it was always just like, go. Just freaking go. Well, one of the aspects that's going on there, and it's kind of a side aspect of what I talk about in the book, although I do mention it is that, and we'll talk about this combination of uncertainty plus anxiety equaling fear and how to kind of combat those. But when we think about anxiety, anxiety is quite literally fiction. that's all it is. It's thinking about what's ahead. It's the future, which hasn't happened yet, just like the past is history, the future's fiction. And so I tell people, one things you'll never

find Navy SEALs do is worry about shit they can't control. It does not preclude proper planning. Obviously, we plan, but we don't overplan. We say, okay, on any op, like five phases of an op, we say, okay, what are the two or three things that could happen? Let's have a plan for that. After that, we'll just go. But we don't sit in the helicopter while we're on insert, worrying too much about what's going to happen. We're thinking about stuff and we're worried about the moment or we're concerned and thinking about the moment because this fiction will drain our neural energy.

It really will. And so to think about and to create scenarios, you're literally living in the future. You're living in a fictitious world. It could happen. It couldn't happen. So you don't waste your time doing that. Yeah.

Feel sorry for those guys with good imaginations because they're imagining all kinds of great. Something I told many MMA fighters over the years was because you're going out. to fight in a cage. And, you know, if it's the UFC and there's 20,000 people in the stands and there's millions of people watching and you might get K-Oed. Yes.

Like that can happen to anybody at any time. That's why they call it a puncher's chance. That can happen. And what I would tell these guys, because they would worry about that. And I'd say, you know, when we were to go out on an operation, there's a chance that that despite all your planning, despite all your preparation, despite having all your SOPs dialed in, despite rehearsals, despite all that stuff, you can just drive down the road and hit a roadside IED and you lose you die or even worse some of your friends die and that's

what's going to happen and if you worry about that you're you're not focused on what you can actually impact and influence so it's the same thing if you're worried about getting knocked out I mean now what you should be focused on keeping your hands up you should be focused on your takedown offense there's all kinds of things you can you can practically do that will help you in the situation but worrying about a chance knockout is not one of them just like working about a chance ID. I don't know if that's even, I don't know, I don't know how you deal with that.

If you think every time, hey, I'm going to get blown up with an ID. This is probably going to happen to me today. Like that's got to hurt. Although I did have one guy who every operation, this is my first deployment to Iraq, every operation that we went on, he thought he was gonna die

and we were all gonna die. Yeah. He was one of those guys. He might have been a Murphy's law guy. He's just like, I'm not gonna let Murphy. He was so freaking classic because he'd be like, I'm not feeling good about this one.

Hey, hey, boss, what's up with this one tonight? You look at that route. You know what he'd go. And every night, you know, he'd be in the vehicle. Because he was my J-TAC. He'd be, like, sitting behind me in the vehicle. And, you know, here it comes. Every time we got to a bridge, it was great.

I loved it. We used to scare the hell out of him, too, because I think I see something, you know, the whole nine yards. But point being, don't worry about things you can't control. Yeah. And focused on the things you can't control. Yeah. So, Masters of Uncertainty.

Let's get into this book a little bit. I'm jumping ahead. Our culture seldom sees stress as an opportunity. It's uncomfortable and therefore unwanted. Itching for relief, we often react instinctively and counterproductively in two ways. Panic or procrastination. Panic happens when the discomfort becomes so intolerable that you're driven to quell it impulsively for giving the wisdom of a measured breath.

Procrastination happens when the discomfort of autonomic arousal arousal or even just anticipation of it makes the task seem too daunting to confront head on. You take refuge in diversion and distraction while deep down secretly harboring hope that the trouble will untangle itself, but this seldom happens. So these are two responses to stress. One of them is panic and the other one is procrastination. Yeah. How's that look?

Well, so we have to understand the autonomic arousal. So we get stressed, we get fear. Our amygdala gets tickled. Our autonomic arousal goes up. As our autonomic arousal goes up and we approach that amygdala hijack or the autonomic overload, our frontal lobe, the decision-making, conscious decision-making part of our brain is beginning to recede. And our limbic brain, our lizard brain, is starting to come to the fore. And so what happens in those cases of autonomic overload or amygdial hijack is that now our frontal lobe has taken a complete backseat

and we are acting without thinking. That can manifest in a couple different ways. Now, neuroscientists like Uberham will say that that freeze is not, that freeze behavior is more of an oscillation as whether or not you're going to fight or flight. But in the case of full autonomic overload or amygdial hijack, you are literally acting without thinking. Now, like I say, this comes in handy when you're jumping out of the way of the moving train or running from the bear. But in 99% of cases in modern world, you want your frontal lobe engaged to make decisions as you're doing it. And so that allows us to act. And so we just have to be aware that those responses are coming from an autonomic arousal

of stress. But the good news is, as we'll get into, you can control that. You can actually bring your frontal lobe to the fore and begin stepping through and making decisions. So you can suffer no longer from either panic or procrastination. Yeah, we did a podcast a little while ago. And it was one of the most interesting thing about this is physiologically, your body will stop sending blood to your frontal cortex where you think and it will send the blood and therefore oxygen

and therefore energy to your amygdala. So your amygdala is literally taking over your prefrontal cortex and your ability to think. And that's why, you know, you get someone when something stressful happens and they don't really, they reacted to it and they don't really remember, oh, I don't really even remember what happened. You know, sometimes, you ever talk to somebody that did a cutaway parachuting? Yeah, yeah. Depending on how good they are at parachuting, sometimes it's Oh, man, I don't know. I just saw, I just, next thing you know, I was under reserve. But they did all their things properly, but they just did them without even thinking.

They just did it. And or people get into a fight or someone gets in their face and they just do something. It's like full amygdala hijack, no thought process happening. And this is where, this is by the way, where training matters. Because if you train to a level of mastery, like in the seals we say shoot, move, and communicate. Those are the three elemental things we train to, to master in any environment. Because when we fall back to that very raw elemental thing, if we happen to be acting without thinking,

we want to actually lean upon those muscle memory things we've trained. So the guy who does the cutaway does all those procedures because he's trained himself to actually do that reactively, instinctively, which is great. Without thought, without his prefrontal cortex. But that's hard to get to. You have to do, there's a lot of work that it takes to get to that level. And what I'm saying is we don't all have to be that way. And, oh, by the way, in true uncertainty, you can't do it anyway because you can't predict uncertainty.

So how can we actually leverage those things about our physiology that allow us to actually take control in the moment? Back to the book here. But it doesn't always have to be this way. In fact, it wasn't meant to be this way. In truth, autotomic arousal is a call to arms. It is a mobilizing force. It's your body offering you alertness and energy meant to equip you to tackle perceived threats. hence jumping out of the way of a car, running from a bear.

The great news is that you're innately prepared to transform this stress response from a hindrance that hurts your performance into a surge of vitality that propels it forward. You can embrace and channel your body's energy pairing it with composure and strategic control. How? By tapping into a primal capability you already possess that I call moving horizons. So talk to us about moving horizons. Yeah. So moving horizons, so to kind of go back to this definition, one of the things Huberman and I worked on

and kind of hypothesized when we're doing this work on fear was that fear is the result of two specific things, uncertainty plus anxiety. In other words, you could have one or the other. You don't necessarily have fear. You can be anxious without being uncertain. So that might be I have a presentation to give next week. I know the presentation. I know the people I'm giving to.

So there's no real uncertainty there. I'm just anxious about it. Not real fear. You can be uncertain without being anxious. Well, that's every kid on Christmas Eve. Okay, we know there's no fear there, right? So it's when you combine the two that you get fear. And this is the type of uncertainty that I'm talking about that we want to really start to work against

because fear, that fear-based stuff is going to hinder us. And so the strategy becomes if you, if uncertainty plus anxiety equals fear, then to buy down the fear, we need to buy down one or both of those equations, buy down uncertainty and or buy down anxiety. So moving horizons is quite literally a neurological way we can buy down uncertainty. And the way it works is it focuses on the three elements of our environment that our brain is automatically in every situation trying to figure out. Those three elements are duration, how long this is going to last, pathway, what's my route in, out or through, and then outcome. What's the end state?

Now, if we are in absence of one or more of those three things, we begin to feel that stress, that fear, that stuff bubble up. So here's a good example would be illness. So, for example, strep throat is an illness we all know. Most of us have had strep throat. We know there's an antibiotic that can cure strep throat. So if we get strep throat, we are only in the absence of one of those things. We know the pathway, antibiotic. We know the outcome we're going to get better.

What we don't know necessarily is duration because it might take you four days to respond to the antibiotics. It might take me seven days. Our anxiety and uncertainty level is mild. Now let's take the flu. The flu is also a known disease in most modern countries. We recover from the flu. We don't die from it. But there's no known cures for the flu, right?

There's a lot of people who have ideas on what you can do for the flu, but there's no nothing you can, there's nothing you can take. So if we have the flu, then we are in absence of two. We're absence of pathway and we're an absence of duration. All we know is outcome. So our anxiety or uncertain levels of moderate. Now let's think about a disease showing up on the planet we've never seen before. There's no vaccine. There's no cure.

Some people are dying. Some people are not, right? We don't know how long this is going to last, okay? enter 2020. This is COVID, and all of us were in absence immediately of all three. This is when we have this full-blown kind of, okay, what the hell's going on? What Moving Horizons does is it allows us to generate certainty in our environment in the moment by focusing on something that we can then anchor on and move to.

So the example would be, we're in buds, and I know this happened to you too, but obviously your listeners know as much about, you know, they know a lot about buds. You're carrying those damn boats forever, especially in Hell Week all the time. I remember during Hell Week, it was sometime, I don't know, three or four in the morning, one of those days, and we're on the beach carrying these boats. We're next to the sand berm. And I remember saying to myself, I was miserable saying to myself, you know what, I'm just going to focus on getting to the end of the sandburn. Now, what I did in that moment was I picked a horizon and, in essence, created my own DPO, my own duration pathway outcome, duration from now until end of Sanburn,

pathway from here to end of Sanbrum, and then I'll come in of Sanbrum. And in doing so, I manipulated my dopamine system, which we'll talk about in more depth, but I also created a reward so that when I conducted, when I finished that,

and I completed that task, I got another dopamine hit and allowed me to come back out and pick a new horizon. And so what moving horizons is, it's basically a step-by-step process. We're picking something to focus on, generating certainty.

We're moving to it. We're registering a reward and we're doing it again. And we can do that over and over and over. It's a cyclical cycle there that we can do over and over again until one of three things happens. Either we've moved through everything. There's no more, you know, we've moved through the challenge or stress. We've accomplished our goal or there's no more. You know, we've generated enough certainty in our environment that we don't need to do anymore. And so it's, it's quite literally, when people ask me, and I know you get it all the time, people, you know, young men ask you how can I go to buds? Maybe they want to get help or they say, what's the advice for buds? You know, should I, you know, should I, Should I get cold? Should I like sit in the ice bath? I was like, you can't rehearse cold. But this is the secret. This is what all of us do.

We talk about not worrying about shit we can't control. The reason why that selection process is so genius is because the selection of apostas designed that if you worry about what's coming, you will quit. And I know they've done exit interviews. They started doing this about a decade or more ago, which they should have been doing for years, by the way, of guys who quit asking them why they quit. And one of the most common comments from guys who quit is we had been doing X, Y, Z. We were doing X, Y, Z, and I couldn't imagine doing X, Y, Z forever, right?

They could not, they were too focused on too far up a horizon. And we all know, I mean, the saying it buds is if you, on Hell Week, is if you think about Friday on Monday, you're going to quit. We all know that the secret is we never worried. I remember being in Hell Week, and it's like, I would just, I worried about what I was doing in the moment. I didn't worry about what the next thing was. I didn't, I just picked the moment. I was picking my horizons constantly, and I think all of us who make it through

have somewhere in our lives trained to this to some extent, to some extent so that we're prepared to do it. Because if you don't, if you're not able to do it at the extreme levels, you'll quit. Yeah, I remember going through Hell Week a little bit. I don't remember much of Buds, to be honest with it. It's like a long time ago. Well, yeah, I mean, so we've been 30 years for me,

probably what, 35? And I was young. How old were you doing with the Buds? 22. Okay. I was, I was like 19. But I remember just like whatever, I wasn't thinking about anything in the future. I was just like, what are we doing right now and having a good time with what we're doing right now.

Okay, we're going to do rock portage school like stroke, stroke. Like I did, I felt no impending weight. Yes. From the future at all. Right. Like at all. And that's pretty much the way I felt through most of buds. There was no impending like I can't believe how long is this going to last.

How long we'd be doing this? I didn't think about that all. I was just like, what are we doing right now? Okay, cool. They want me to run over this berm? I'm running over this berm. And I don't even know what they're going to ask us to do next. They could ask us to do it a thousand more times or one more time.

I didn't think either one of those. You were thinking in the moment. And you're picking your own horizons based on you. Now the horizons have to be subjective to us as individuals because and also the intensity of the environment. So for example, freezing in the surf zone. Sometimes the horizon is really close. Sometimes the horizon can move out.

Freezing the surf zone, my horizon. horizon was, I'm just going to count 10 waves sometimes, you know, whatever that was. But the reason why that's the case is because what we're doing with our dopamine system when we pick our horizon is we're actually using dopamine to engage in the act of the goal. And I know you've had, Huberman and others on talking about dopamine, but dopamine is much more than just a reward chemical. It's a motivation chemical. And so they've done this experiments with this experiment with rats. They put a rat in an enclosure. And in that enclosure, there's a device where the rat just has to tap this lever and a tasty pellet comes out. And so, of course, the rat just sits next to that

lever and just taps it over and over and gets that tasty pellet. Then, of course, they move the rat to the other side of the enclosure. The rat runs over and starts tapping it again. But then they remove the dopamine from the rat. And what they did was once they did that, they put the rat just a rat's length away from that device. The rat never moved. The rat would have actually sat there and starved if they'd let it, right? So they recognize that dopamine, it engages upon the act of the goal. And why does this matter? Because if we pick a horizon, that's too far out, then we are going to run out of dopamine before we get there, and we will quit. Anytime we've quit anything, it's because we've run out of dopamine.

And if we pick a horizon that's too short, by the way, we won't register enough of a reward. We're like, I didn't really feel that. And so these horizons have to be subjective to us. And what's happening to those of us who actually make it through is we're constantly managing the horizon in a meaningful way. These guys who quit, they have not, they've picked too far of a horizon. And so they quit before they get there. In fact, the instructors will capitalize on this. Now, it's unconscious genius, as most stuff in the seal team is.

But I know you're friends with Andy Stump, and I was talking to him about this. He was an instructor. And he said he would literally, because he was second phase, but of course, they do shifts. And he would literally just deliberately fuck with guys and be like, hey, we're going to be doing this all night. Or, hey, just stand by because this is the whole week. I mean, what they're doing is they're constantly messing with the horizons. They do it in microways to us. We all know.

Bud's, well, again, for the audience, I think it's third phase. Every time the instructor says drop, you have to do 30, second phase is 40, and third phase is 50 push-ups, right? And so, of course, instructors will just walk by and say drop, and you have to do 30 push-ups or 40, whatever. But then what they'll do is they'll watch you doing push-ups, and what do they inevitably do when you hit 29? Yeah, start again.

Start again, right? And so they are deliberately messing with your own internal DPO's and forcing you to pick other ones. And so the guys who get really good at this are the guys who make it through. And we start to not pay attention to other people's forced DPO's. We start to manage our own dopamine system and say, okay, I mean, for some of us it was 10 waves. Sometimes it was make the next meal. Sometimes it's like, well, just see how this works out.

I mean, it could be anything, but we're constantly modulating those. And here's the good news. The good news is you don't have to get it right the first time. You can pick a horizon if it feels too far in the most. moment, you can pull that horizon in. Anybody who's worked out has done this, okay? You get, you start your set, whatever bench or whatever, I'm going to do 12 reps. You get to eight and you're like, okay, just four more. What you've done in that moment is you've pulled that horizon in, and it works psychologically because you've just pulled that horizon and reset it and you're doing

four more. And so anybody can practice this. You can do it in any environment. It doesn't have to be an uncertainty to do it. But if you do this an uncertainty, what you're doing is you're mitigating that one factor of the equation. You're doing. You're doing. You're, generating certainty by focusing on something. I am certain about this. You're moving to it and you're picking something else. You ever heard like some people say, hey, if you have some goal, announce it to everyone and tell everyone that you have this goal. And other people say, hey, if you have a goal, keep it to yourself. These are, you know, internet gurus say these things all day. Confidently both sides. Yeah, confidently both sides. And I'm sure there's some sort of

examples or something that they lived. But one thing I have seen is people that they get the dopamine hit from talking about doing something. So someone, you know, I'm writing a book. Yeah. And when they say that, it sort of gives them the reward that they're looking for of like now, you know, now Rich knows that I'm writing a book. And he thinks that I'm pretty, you know,

he's impressed with that. He's got to think I'm a pretty disciplined guy because I'm, you know, hunkering down and writing a book or I'm, you know, so you have to watch out for that. I remember guys that would talk about going to Buds when I was in boot camp, you know, like they talked about it a lot. And that was enough.

They got enough dopamine right there. They say, I'm going to buds too. And I'd be like, oh, do you want to do some like squats and jumping jacks with me? Well, I got to make my bed or whatever. And so, yeah, you got to be careful. I don't know which one of those is right. I'm sure there's situations where both those are right. You know, I think certainly putting yourself out there into the world and claiming you're going to achieve something is a really exaggerated form of that.

And I think that might be beneficial for some people. And also other people that are like, I'm not telling anyone this is, I'm just going to make this thing happen. and everyone's going to look up one day and here's the book that I wrote or whatever. Right. Well, here's where I will say. I think if I were to guess, it has probably something to do with our level of insuciance. Now, insuciance is an attribute we talked about. It's in the book. Insuciance is an attribute that is defined as the indifference or casual indifference of caring what people think. So in other words,

the person who's high in insuciance is the person who walks around life and they just don't seem to care what other people think. They are they march to be their own drum. They just do their own thing. And we know those people. They're just, they're out there. They're often, you know, quite econoclastic. They set trends.

They're often quite attractive to, I mean, they're like, bees to honey. People are attracted to that. Lower insusience folks, we're the type of folks who walk around and we, we look around and we gauge, we try to gauge what people are thinking, and we actually adjust our behavior. Now, I would maintain that most Navy seals are lower on the insusian scale. And the reason is, because a lot of what we do, do is based upon, oh, I'm not going to look bad in front of my teammates, right?

You know, a classic thing you'll hear from guys who didn't quit Buds is, why didn't you quit? It's like, there was no fucking way I was going to get up and ring that bell. I was not going to be that guy, right? I jump out of it. Why did I, I hated jumping out of airplanes. Why did I do it a hundred times? The guy next to me was doing it. There's no way I was not going to do that, right?

So I think the reason why this matters is for the lower insusience person, the person who cares, they can announce a goal and part of their drive will be hey I announced this I can't now not do it right because they care what people think your higher insuscens person is not going to give a fuck right

they're going to be like yeah I announce it but I don't care I'm just my own friend so that might have a fact I'm not saying that's the answer but I think that might be why it works for some and doesn't work for other people you know when they brought the bell to buds that was the reason that they brought it

was because when in the old days before they had the bell when you quit you just kind of walked around the back and you just disappeared. Yeah. And so the instructors, and it was actually specifically one guy said it, who was in charge of the phase said, wait a second, if I make this for lack of a word like a humiliating process, visible, humiliating process where you have to stand up in front of everyone and say,

I'm, I'm quitting. I can't take this anymore. And it seemed to help from what they said. And of course, then they took the bell away for a little while because it was too humiliating and all this stuff. But then they brought it back. You know what's interesting is it had a dual effect. because on one side it had an effect on the person who's quitting.

But on the other side, when you heard the bell, when you were in Buds or Hell Week, how did you feel? We got their power. Totally. I felt that I'm still here, right? I am still. So it actually, every time I heard the bell, it pumped me up. It gave me more energy. And so it actually, I think it's a brilliant, again, unconscious genius, brilliant addition,

because on one hand, it's forcing a candidate to really come to terms with the fact that they are willing to. And again, we don't, I want to emphasize, we don't judge people who quit ever. For us, it's like, hey, if you don't want to be here, that's fine. We'd rather you make that decision. We respect you for trying. And oh, by the way, it's a super small percentage of guys who actually get to the beaches of bud. So we have ultimate respect for anybody who tries. However, it's, it pumps us up, man.

When you, you know, when you see all those helmets and you're in Hell Week and you're like, I remember it was probably Tuesday morning or Wednesday morning, and it's probably Tuesday morning because I think the cold, one of the coldest nights was Tuesday or Monday. Anyway, I remember being a, at breakfast being a chow and looking around and being like, they must have the rest of the class out doing stuff because this is not all of us. And it didn't hit me until later. I was like, oh, so many people had quit that it's just us now, you know, it pumps you up. It's like a video game where you kill someone and you get their power. You know what I'm saying? It's that. Yeah. Yeah.

With David, David Goggins, so crushing souls or taking people's souls or something like that. It's kind of like that. I mean, it's all related. So, yeah. Check, I'm going to fast forward a little But you have three additional ideas. Number one, the difference between planning and worrying. Yeah, yeah. We hit that. I mean, we hit that probably. It's good to plan, but you don't overplan.

If you overplan, it's paralysis through analysis. And you say, and what planning does in small chunks is it allows you to commit to certainty and mastery some SOPs. Like, hey, if this happens, I don't, I've, it allows you to close that uncertainty cone. In other words, if this or this happens, we know we'll do this. closes that uncertainty cone, which means I can now open that aperture for other things I can't see coming. It's like this. It's like the what, five or six parachute malfunctions you rehearse so that if something happens that you've never seen before, it's like, okay, I have all of my

brain that I can use to put to this scene on. So, you know, number two, accept your limits. It's a good one to think about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the, I think what I try to say in that is that is that nothing, you know, we, if we think we're invincible, if we think we, if we, if we don't accept the fact that we are, are what are, are probably going to to fail on certain things and, and, um, and, um, and not achieve, then we're, we're, we're setting ourselves up for failure. Nothing's perfect. And oh, by the way, it's going to suck no matter what. So, yeah. Yeah, I was kind of tap into this a little bit. from a leadership perspective when someone, you know,

I'm working with Echo and we're on a project and Echo's not really doing what he's supposed to be doing. So I try and take stuff off his plate, trying to help him, try and support him. And at some point, I can't really, I can't really do anything else. And I, you know, say, hey, Rich, you're my boss. Hey, I need another guy.

You know, why do you need another guy? Well, here's what I'm doing. And I've reached kind of my limits. Isn't Echo supposed to be doing that? Yeah, but Echo's at his limits over here. So can you give me someone else? Because if I just bury myself in all, of the work, I'm not going to be successful. At a certain point, you have to say, hey,

this is my max capacity. And by the way, Rich, if you don't want to give me someone else, okay, here's some, here's what I need to prioritize. Do you want this or do you want that? Right. Do you need it this now or that later? And we got to figure that out because everyone has limitations. And there's only so many man hours in the day to make stuff happen. So something that we all have to do. I'll also, let me add to that because I give this, I give the master's certain content to all sorts of different organizations and teams and businesses. And I was doing a workshop at one point and one of the guys where I was doing several. So I did the uncertainty one the day before the next day he comes back. He's like, hey, I was using the horizons thing.

I was, I did it for email. And it was really hard for me. I couldn't go longer than five minutes on like, you know, focusing. I said, well, this is part of accepting your limits. I mean, we are in a society now where the the dopamine injections that we are able to get on a consistent basis are immense. I mean, just the doom scrolling is an example of that. And so some people may find themselves having to set very, very short horizons. That's okay. As long as you're practicing that, you can extend those out later on. But accepting the fact that, you know, it's not a machete- What was he wanted to do with his email? He wanted to focus on getting him done. So I said, well, focus on just this email. Don't, you know, block out everything else, answer this to your best

ability, and then go to the next one. And he just found himself, his attention was getting pulled, right so which is a common it's a common thing a common occurrence especially in in today's environment so so just i say usually if you want to practice focusing you could put a clock timer and you can set it and i'll set it for half hours oh no no no half hours probably too much for you right now you might have to set it for five minutes or two minutes or whatever and just start feeling what it feels like to achieve that horizon and set a new one yeah um and the last one three help your brain help you and this is getting back to the frontal lobe piece We are, the good news is I'm sure everyone, everybody who's listening to this right now can think of an example where they've done this naturally.

In other words, we are designed to do this, to move horizons. We're designed to chunk our environments because our brains are constantly looking for certainty. And so the idea is let your natural processes take over. And if you are picking horizons as well, what's happening is you are stemming that retreat of your frontal lobe because you're forcing your frontal lobe to focus. on something and make a decision. So, so help your brain help you, means your brain wants to wants to do right by you. Because by the way, even if you do reach autonomic arousal or overload or amygdala hijack and you do jump out of the way of the moving train without thinking, your brain just helped you, right? And so, so help it along.

Yeah. Next section here, actualize your neurology with better questions. So remain grounded in the sphere of what you know and control, cultivate a habit of asking yourself better questions. When you introduce a question, and by the way, obviously I'm skipping chunks of the book. Get the book. I'm skipping a bunch of stuff so we can talk through it, but a lot of detail that I'm skipping. So get the book so you can get the detail. When you introduce a question into conscious thought, the mind is compelled to come up with answers. The problem is that it's all too common to default to reactive, negative, and sometimes

emotion-laden questions, such as, why am I so bad at this or why can't I succeed? Your brain will immediately begin to give you these answers. Yet the answers will not lead to enlightenment. Rather, they will spiral you into further negativity and anxiety. Masters of uncertainty steer their thoughts with better, more effective questions, questions that center on what they can ascertain and influence. Well aware that knowledge morphs into power. They prime their minds with inquiries like, what do I know? What can I control?

The brain can't help but answer these questions in ways that put you at the helm. That's a classic. why do I suck at this? Well, our brain does that. I mean, our brain will answer any question we put into it. I do an exercise with teams. I say, I give them 30 seconds. I say, okay, answer this question.

How can I double my income in the next six months? And I say, I give them 30 seconds and say anything that pops into your head, write down. And they do. And I don't even ask for the answers, even though I'm super curious. I say, how many things did you write down? And most of you get five, six things. And the reason why that is, because whatever we ask our brain, our brain will begin to give us the answers. If you ask yourself, why am I so pissed off, you're going to get some phenomenal reasons as to why you're pissed off.

However, if you ask yourself, why am I grateful or what can I do better, you're going to get those answers as well. And so really, it's kind of a reframing tool, but you're working with your neurology. I mean, teams, we do that. And our natural debrief is what went right, what went wrong, what could we do better? But we don't focus on what went wrong. You know, we focus on all three because we know that these avenues are, they can be sinkholes if we let them. And that's not how we operate. Yeah, when situations are scenarios in business, in life are getting, I'm watching them kind of start to morph into something that is going to be negative.

You know, sometimes I just go back to a situation, you know, situation, mission admin is like Smeak. Let's just get back to the basics because people, hold on a second. Hold on. Everyone stop. What's the situation we're right now? Let's just talk through that. Yes. Okay.

Now what is our mission? Okay. How we can execute that. And that right there, I've pulled myself or my teams out of a lot of bad scenarios just by saying, hey, oh, okay, everyone's stop. Because what are they worried about? Like, they're worried about beyond the situation that we're in. They're thinking about the situation that we might be and that we could end up in.

It's anxiety. It's all that bad stuff. Hold on. What's the situation we're right now? Okay. What is our mission? Because now we're thinking we're trying to solve a thing that we created in our mind that's negative and we're trying to come up with a mission to solve.

That's not even where we're at right now. What are we doing right now? Yes. What do I know? What can I control? That's a very first question. and that anchors you. I've done this with my boys before.

They're stressed out about something, and they're like, you know, going off whatever. And I say, okay, stop. What do we know? What can we control right now? And you anchor that certainty. And you basically, you're creating certainty and thereby negating that equation, equation of fear.

By the way, this is the best example of this, or one of the best. I heard someone, I heard Buzz Aldrin being interviewed about him and Neil Armstrong going to the moon or landing the lunar module on the moon. And the question was, hey, when you were landing in that process, were you afraid? And he said, no, I wasn't afraid because, you know, I was so focused on what I was doing.

He had, you know, the mirrored things could have happened. I mean, they could have been trapped there or whatever. All he could focus on was what this, what I was doing in the moment. I think you probably can attest to this. I've been asked if I was ever, if there were times in my career where we're in a situation or in combat or something where I was afraid, and I answer very honestly, and I say no. And that's not because I'm macho. It doesn't mean I'm cool or whatever.

because in those moments, all I was doing was solving the current problem. I was moving from one thing to the other to the other. Now, what's interesting about, and I'm sure you've had this experience, is sometimes I'd get back from that mission. All the debriefs were done, all this stuff. I was back in my hooch by myself, and I'd be like, holy shit, that was close. And all that fear would come back, right? But that's a much better place to experience the fear once it's done and over with.

But the reason why, so we're almost delaying the fear because we're focused on the moment. Yeah, I would have the experience. two of rolling to a target. So you're in vehicles, you're in a pretty, you know, sure you can get ID, but you're going to a target. And that's when I would have the most like, oh, what could go wrong? What's going to happen on the breach?

This bad guys waiting first. I hope my guys don't get hurt. Like all that stuff. And then once the breach goes, you're just like, no, again, no fear. And like you're saying, not to say, I'm not afraid of anything. But you're definitely not thinking about fear. You're thinking about doing your job right now.

This is what we got going on. Hey, hold on, with that room secured. Hey, let's get people on the other rooftop. Like, we're just, when you have a job to do, and you're just focused on it. But prior to, I would feel like, oh, the knot in my stomach sometimes of, hey, I hope everything goes well. And then when you get back, you're like,

who, God's a frogman. Yeah, the counterfactual thinking comes in. What if? What if that had happened, right? Yeah. But again, what you just described is actually a really indicative of this process working well. And that is you were in a specific phase in the mission. And I can remember being a G.

a GFC or whatever is doing the same thing, where in that phase you're asking yourself, okay, what could go wrong right now? What do I need to worry about right now? This could happen. As I'm rolling up, boom, boom, boom, breach goes, phases over. You put all that stuff away. And now you're saying, okay, now, what can I? And you're literally creating your own horizons and compartmentalizing your thought process. And it's not like you're asking, you're not asking what ifs, but all of your what ifs are very anchored in the present moment or present or anchored in what your responsibility is, right? So this is very, and your frontal lobes engage the whole time.

So it really, really works. And most people can do it or have done it. We just have to practice this stuff. And the more you're conscious of what you're doing, the better you'll get at it. Yeah, yeah. And the more you're conscious of what you're doing, the better you'll get at it. As if depleting one's energy is a badge of honor. They often assume high achievers have an almost supernatural amount of stamina that exceeds normal bounds.

This is a fallacy. What's the reality? Well, the reality is it always sucks. You know, people, I mean, it's just not, you know, we're, it's like the cold. So by the way, one of the best, and Huberman and I actually thought of this, one of the best places one can rehearse the moving horizons process is in the ice bath. Because the ice bath sucks. And I always joke, and I know this for you, I have an ice bath in my garage, and I dread every single time I'm getting into that thing. I hate it. Okay. And it's when guys say, hey, should I get in the ice bath? It's like you can't rehearse the cold. It's like rehearsing getting kicked in the knots. You can't do that, right? So, so the idea is it's not just about gutting it out. It's about actually applying processes so that you may actually move through that effectively. Yeah, being tough, being just tough. I mean, I guess you know, you can be tough and dumb and maybe, but that's because you're, you're You're just, your brain's operating at different, different level.

So, yeah, it's not going to be easy. If you're going to be stupid, you've got to be tough. That's right. That whole thing. I use that all this. Yeah. If you're going to be tough. If you're going to be dumb, you better be hard.

Yeah. Fast forward. To truly harness motivation, one must appropriately engage with the body's inherent drive system. This concept combined with the strategy of moving horizons, resonates a profound instinctual level. Set meaningful horizons. A meaningful horizon is judiciously sized.

And this is what you already talked about. That's right. It's challenging enough. enough it's a challenge that's within reach yet still calls for a stretch it's that sweet spot just beyond the borders of your comfort zone it possesses a duration pathway and outcome DPO as you call in the book that are attainable yet it demands a measure of exertion it's the kind of goal that sparks a reassuring yes I've got this and rewards you with a fulfilling nod of achievement upon completion it was interesting one of the things

I talk about is one of my favorite tools for leadership is leadership itself so if I've got a guy who let's say is not very confident. Give him something, you know, task and put him in charge of a mission or an operation that I know he can handle.

But you can't make it so easy that it's just nothing for him. It's got to be something that's a little bit of a challenge but not overwhelming. And you allow them, it's a stretch for him, but they get it done

and their confidence increases. So that's a good tool to think about and it's a good thing to think about with your own goals that you have for yourself. Yeah. And the ease of which is actually important as well because if we do,

if we're not setting, long enough horizons that matters. I think I talk about the guy I met in the book I talk about the guy I met who introduced himself after a talk. He's an altar runner and, you know, people do ultra run. I mean, 150, 100 mile races. I would never run that far. So it's always curious to me. I say, how did you get into that? He's like, well, you may not believe this, but I used to be 450 pounds. And I was like, whoa. I said, tell me that story. And he said, well, I was so sick one day of my health and my weight that I said to, I said to myself, I'm going to run a marathon. He decided he's going to run a marathon. And I said, what do you do?

He said, well, the first thing I did is I went home, I ordered running shoes. And then the running shoes came. And then I said, next tomorrow morning, I'm going to get up and I'm put on my running shoes. Next morning, I'm going to put on my running shoes, walk to the front door. Next morning, walk to the mailbox. Next morning, I'd walk to the end. So he set his horizon. So I always joke.

Like, I try to when I'm home, run maybe once a week if I can. I enjoy it. Three miles, three point two miles is the longest. But if I can't run for several weeks and I get home and I say, you know what, I want to run again. And I say, tomorrow, I'm just going to walk to my mailbox. It's not going to be a large enough thing, right? So we have to stretch ourselves to a degree where it's kind of, it's outside our comfort zone, yes, but it's not so far that we're not going to make it.

And the good news is if you do pick something too far, you can pull it in in the moment depending. But yeah, it can't be too easy. We just had a guy on the podcast named Mason Wright who ran a thousand miles around a track. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And I didn't really realize how psycho that was. until we started talking about it. And when you're out running in the normal world,

you get all these little micro adjustments and you get to, you know, you're going left, you're going right, you're looking at different things. And your body has to adapt. And so that means your body's not doing the same exact repetitive motion, which is way harder on your body than even the little micro adjustments, uphill, downhill, trail, take going left, going right. It was brutal and there's not,

he's the third person ever to do this. There were actually three people who did it. That's a problem. And one of the guys who was like maybe the first guy to do it, who was like apparently this ultra, ultra, ultra hardcore dude. And it was like annihilated him. Like he got permanently injured from it. It's crazy.

How long did that take, by the way? It took him, do you remember what it took him? It took him like, I want to say nine. It took him a couple weeks, like 19 days or something. And he's just running the whole time? I mean, no, he's, you're. You're stopping, like you have to sleep, you have to like lay down. But you're all day, you know.

But you stay on the track. And I want to say the, it was more than eight hours a day. It was like probably, I forget the number of hours a day, but he was running. I think the average was 56 miles a day. Jeez. And then, you know, lay down, get massages, you know, hydrate and get back to it again. But that repetitive, and even I said, did you run the opposite way around the track? And he did, but he only did about a third of the laps the opposite way because it was like, it's

psychologically weird for human beings to run, I guess it's clockwise or is it counterclockwise? One of them is, yeah, counterclockwise, it's like psychologically we're not, we don't like it. Interesting. And so you just freak out when you're doing. He even said he was like,

it was so hard for me to run the opposite direction. I was like, okay, bro. He had set his horizons very specifically on that one. Oh yeah, yeah. But one of the talks I had with him before he did it was this is something I tell people. It's a very similar thing, but you know when you're shooting,

and I explain to people that when you're shooting, when you're, the target's far off in the distance. And when you look at it, you can see the target, but if you continue to look at it, it becomes blurry. And so what do we do? We focus on our front site, right? And this is what I always explain to people. Sometimes you've got to focus on your front site,

like, hey, I'm just going to do what I need to do today. Like this, just this next step or whatever you said, to the end of the berm. Right. But then sometimes when that grind starts to take an impact on you, you got to, you know, hold on a second. Let me look at the far target here. Oh, yeah, that's right.

I want to complete this ultra marathon or I want to make it through buds or whatever. You look out, okay, I can see that thing. But again, sometimes that just gets too far away. When it's too far away, that seems like a dream. Yeah. And so I'm going to look right back at my front side again. What do I got to do today? What do I got to do in the next 20 minutes to move towards that reality?

So that's one of the ways that I describe this thing of the horizons. Fast forward a little bit. Meaningful goals, boost rather than drain motivation because of how dopamine functions often dubbed the molecule of pleasure or reward reward dopamine does create a feeling of reward for pleasurable activities yes it spikes you indulge in something like a tasty dessert echo charles but there's more to it bro i had a i was i was on a bunch of travel and i was explaining and i ended up at an event for echelon front called the council and i was talking through dopamine and rewards and overcoming and amygdala and uh i was explaining that i got on this plane

and I hadn't eaten because I don't like to eat when I'm speaking, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I was at an event, so I didn't eat. And then the next thing you know, I travel, and so I'm on this plane. And I just got into three bags

of lays potato chips, bro. Like a, like a savage, bro. Just total amygdala override, hijack, just greasy, just like porn. You know, and just, oh, that's just what I was exactly what I need. Thankfully, you know, because I was going to starve to death if I didn't eat these freaking lays.

If I didn't eat these lays, potato chips, I was going to starve to death. So I just had crumbs on my chin, just greased up, just getting in there. But that dopamine, that dopamine is real, man. Dopamine is actually the driving force that enables you to seek outside pleasurable experiences in the first place. It is the motivational push behind the pursuit of rewarding. Because what a great example, though, because I was like, there's no world where my frontal

cortex is like, hey, eat these three bags of lays potato chips. There's no world where that happens. Right. No. I'm breaking those things open like a straight savage. It powers the pursuit of all goals from getting a slice of cheesecake to enduring surf torture. But here's the catch. If the goal seems too daunting, your body can't produce enough dopamine to propel you toward it.

You end up feeling unmotivated. That's what I was just talking about. That's far distance thing. That's right. Too far over horizon. Too far over horizon. Picture standing at the base of a mountain with a thousand steps cut into it. That's a hefty number.

On the flip side, if your goal is too modest, the feeling of reward, would you achieve, it will be minimal or even zero. So there you go. There it is. Yeah. Just manage your dopamine. It's all very subjective. We can all do it. Practice it.

Here's another interesting one. And it ties into what we're just saying. But you use the term, keep your eyes off the prize, which is kind of what I was just saying. If that thing is so far in the distance, it doesn't even have meaning anymore. Right. You know, oh, I really want to buy a house. So for the next four years, I need to save up. five years for a down payment on a house.

Right. But then you're, you know, you're out in the mall or no, even worse, you're on Amazon. com and you can have this thing, whatever this thing that you do not need in any sense of the word. Which is most things on Amazon. Yeah, which is most things on Amazon. But Echo Charles, he's addicted to knives and flashlights. So he's just like, oh, new flashlight.

How many, what, candle power is that thing? Lumen. How many lumens? And next thing you know, he's clicking on a flashlights, so he's just like, oh, new flashlight. on an $80 flashlight, of which he has four already. Five? 12? Yeah, 12.

Well, that would be well lit on the apocalypse comes off. Luminated, yeah, yeah, yeah. Next one here, stay cool. Yeah. Tools to modulate autonomic arousal. Autonomic arousals, the body's natural boost ignites a cascade of biochemical changes to energize us when facing a challenge or threat.

However, there's a threshold. And this is where we're talking about the amygdala hijack. If this shift goes unchecked, it can spiral into what's known as autonomic overload or amygdala hijacked as the amygdala plays a key role in initiating on an autonomic arousal. Actions become reflective, reflexive rather than reflective. And there we go. This is what we're going to watch out for.

And so then you get into the tools to get control of this situation. So this is basically taking that other part of that equation. So moving horizons is buying down uncertainty. If we want to buy down anxiety, we can take control of our physiology. And so in the chapter there, I talk about some visual tools and some breath tools. But the idea is when we get autonomically aroused, our physiology reacts in very specific ways. Our vision tunnels, our breathing gets more shorter and more choppy. We can reverse that process by doing things with our vision and doing things with our breath.

Breathwork is probably the most powerful and there's several different breath tools. Breathwork is cool because breath work you can do one of, you can increase your autonomic arousal with breathwork. You can decrease it. You can hold a steady. Visual tools are some things you can do in there. But the idea is you can literally bring down your autonomic arousal, which is quite literally bring your frontal load back online and you can combine the two.

In other words, your first horizon can be, I'm going to take 10 breaths. And so you're combining that, you're getting your frontal low back online, you're getting into a decision making process. you're saying okay now where can go from where can I go from here yeah this is uh I was going through ULT which is unit level training with I when I was a tasking your commander and my um my uh one of my platoon commander Seth Stone we're in the vehicles and we're doing immediate action drills and I was sitting behind him you know watching because I'm the tasking commander so it's like watching how he's doing and the first time he does one or second whatever

it was and he's like not making any calls I'm watching him as the 50s 50 cal starts shooting and the targets pop up and I'm looking at him. He's just not doing anything. So I watched him do that a couple times and so I said, all right, here's what you're going to do. And I took a Sharpie magic marker and I wrote on the window in his Humvee in front of his face. One, relax, two, look around three, make a call. And I said, hey, next time you hear the 50 caliber starts shooting, follow these instructions. And he's like, Roger.

So I behind him and I'm watching him, machine gun starts firing out. And I see him, and I go, okay, he just relax. And I see him move his head. He looks around. He opens the Humvee door to see where the other one, like, okay, he's looking around. And then boom, make a call. And guess what? It worked.

And I didn't know this at the time, but those instructions of like, okay, relax, take a breath. That's what you need to do. That's step number one. Look around. That expands your horizons. And you know, the other story I tell about this, which I told Huberman as well, is I never wanted to sound panicked when I got on the radio. Right.

Because everyone's going to make fun of you and everyone else is going to panic too. So regardless of what I had done in the previous 30 seconds to five minutes, when I got on the radio to say something to the boys, I would, hey, this is a jocco. Instead of, you know, I'm not doing that. No. We're not doing that. That's right. So there you have the components. And the other thing was, you know, what I ended up calling detaching is like, take your head off your weapon.

take a step back off the skirmish line look to your left look to your right see what's happening and these are all exactly as you prescribe in the book visual tools like take a step back and open up your your panoramic vision that's what we have to do and even when even I tell this to clients right now they'll say you know I'll be in a meeting and I'll start getting frustrated and I will say hey lean back from the from the meeting like push your seat back and look it look up and down the table if you're having a conversation with someone take a half a step back, just back away and just look around a little bit. Broaden your field of view because it absolutely relaxes you. And now I say you always feel a relaxation. You're watching the

sunset in the ocean. You're feeling relaxed when you're overlooking the mountains. That feels relaxing because you can see that there's no threats there. Yeah. It opens up that's your, your animal instinct is getting relaxed. Yeah. And same thing with, same thing with that breath. Just slow it down and you're going to be in a, you're going to be in a better, a much better spot. Well, you slice time differently too. Your brain, when you get really good at this, it's why those who are good at this will describe

a very kinetic event as time slowed down, because your brain is actually slicing time in a different way. And we're able to consciously see that. And so, first of all, I have to say, we talked about Seth last time. I loved Seth. He came to SEAL Team 10 when I was XO, but a great, great guy.

But when we talk about this idea of slowing down and people, I'm sure you get this to the most classic excuses, well, just I have no time. It's like, we, we always have time, right? I mean, if we can be in common, if I can have a parachute malfunction and I can take a half breath before I do something, I think you can take a half breath on a meeting that's getting stressful, right? You can pull back, you can calm yourself. Time will, seemingly, if you get good of this slow down for you, and you'll be able to make the call. I have a very vivid memory of the first time that I ever had that happen. I was over in the

Persian Gulf. It was like 1999 or 2000 and we were doing a shipboarding and it was this big Russian ship and there was a lot of hype around us doing this op and we were fast roping onto it. And that fast roping was, it was in slow motion. And it was so cool. I was like, oh, this is it right here. This is this. I'm just like seeing everything. I'm looking at the bridge as I'm fast roping down. I'm looking around. I'm looking at the guys that are ahead of me. It was crazy how much everything slowed down. I mean, how long does a fastrope take? Four seconds, three seconds. It seemed like 25 seconds of how much everything slowed down.

And it was really nice because then I was kind of got, kind of knew what to expect. Like, oh, okay, cool. That's pretty dope. Well, so one of my buddies, Matt Bissonette, who obviously wrote No Easy Day and stuff. He talks about rehearsing the car wreck or the car accident and how if you're someone who's gotten to many car accidents, you're the first one, you're like, oh, my God, everything happened. I couldn't, I can't remember. Then again, the second was like, oh, I'm like, oh, I can't remember.

Again, the second was like, oh, I noticed this. The third one, you're like, oh, I notice. And so you do this off enough and you begin to notice stuff like you're saying. Even in the most kinetic environments, you kind of, you, things slow down. You start noticing things, yeah. The respiratory tools, you mentioned some of them. There's oxygen dominated inhale breathing. I was thinking about this, you know.

Which, which ups your auto-upacrosal, yep. Like when you're getting ready to echo Charles. Oh, yeah. He knows what I'm going to say. He's getting ready. He's getting ready to bench press those. 120s, right? It's a little,

who, am I wrong? No, you're correct. You're in the game right there, huh? Wimhoff popularized this too. He's a lot of what he does. The Wimhoff breathing is very, it's auctionating yourself,

getting yourself amped up. And then there's the psychological sigh, which you talked about in the first book, when you were parachuting and you'd be yawning, even though you were freaking horrified, you'd be like, why am I yawning? And you figured out that that's the, that's a psychological sigh.

Well, yeah, in part, what's physiological? Physiological side. Yeah, what's happening is your yawning activates. I can't remember the neuroscience. You know, I have to refer to your room on that one. But it activates this nerve that hits the phagis nerve. So you're actually activating your system in a way that allows you to actually calm down. But physiological side is probably the easiest, most effective thing to do.

And that's really easy. That's just a really deep breath in, a top off, and then a very slow exhale. And you're blowing out carbon dioxide. what's happening. And so you're you're you're you're releasing that anxiety. Then you got the four seven eight breathing technique. Again, get the book. Yeah, there's a lot in there. The box breathing and these things are all in the book to help you. Part two of this book, mastering yourself. And now we get kind of a discussion about the attributes again, which is what you wrote an entire book about. And the big key point that you make in this book is that you have to identify.

your attributes. Yeah. The idea is, well, first of all, those first three things we talked about, they're all ubiquitous to all human beings. We all have the ability to do this physiologically and neurologically. We can move horizons. We do that. We also have to understand what we're bringing into uncertainty subjectively.

What are those things subjective about us that we're bringing into uncertainty? So those factors. So attributes, understanding our attributes, understanding our unique attribute stack, our ranking, allows us to say, okay, this is me at my most raw. And that's what the tool and our assessment tool allows you to do is it allows you to figure out your attributes from 1 to 36. And again, like I'll say, just because your number 36 on the attribute doesn't mean you don't have it. So a person who's like 36, number 36 is humor. It doesn't mean you don't have a sense of humor.

It just means when the shit hits the fan, you're not the first person telling the jokes, right? You're going to be more serious. Someone who has number one is their humor, they're going to come up with a joke immediately, which we know these guys. We need them, right? They're the class clown. So it's really about how your attribute stack so you understand. how your behavior is going to be prioritized. Got it.

So will your assessment force ranks the attributes? Is that correct? That's correct. Yes. So I couldn't be a nine on situational awareness and also a nine on persistence? That's right. Right. So in other words, and I would say we have 36.

So it's one to 36. Now, you can be number one on situational awareness and number two on perseverance, right? And that's going to manifest in very specific ways in your behavior. But you could also be number three on decisiveness and number 36 on patients. Okay, now that's going to be advantageous in the sense that you're not going to be someone who slows down or waste time. You're going to make decisions rapidly. But like we describe, all of our attributes, highs and lows come with both advantages and disadvantages. Not even disadvantages, it's blind spots.

So in order to blind spot of that particular one, high, decisive, low patients is that you may make decisions too quickly, too impulsively. And so what we have to recognize about ourselves is, first, of all, our lower attributes are just as advantageous as our high ones. They are contributing in ways in our performance, and those combinations allow us to understand how and why we behave what we do. You're going to want to push forward in situations where you need some very creative thinking. You're going to want to push forward that person who's higher and cunning, because they're going to be naturally more inclined, especially in their most raw moments, to think of very creative outside-of-the-box solutions. And I think this is the gift that we are given in

buds because day one of buds, you begin to understand yourself at your most raw. Now, you're not nuanced in the in the in the vocabulary of attributes. So you don't know exactly what it is, but you start knowing, oh, this is how I show up by my most raw. And you start learning that about your teammates. And and the secret to the sealed teams is we all know each other at our most raw. And some of us are good at certain things. Others are not. And we just we kind of step up and step back in a in a very dynamic way. But understanding that ranking is really important. And then you you talking here about developing your attributes. So if I'm not the best at situational awareness, can I get better at it? You can. However,

it comes with a caveat. So in other words, like I said, just because you're low on something doesn't mean you need to develop it. Okay. In fact, developing it may be detrimental to what you want to do. So here's a good example. And I think SEALs fall in this category too, but I will, there's a group of people we consistently work with who are very high on caring. So caring is one of our attributes, as is empathy. Okay, two separate things. So quick description. Empathy is I feel what you feel. Caring is I'm acting to do something. Caring is an action arm.

There's a group of people we consistently work with that are all high on caring, low on empathy. Who might you imagine that group is? Say it again. High on caring, very high on caring, low on empathy. Doctors? Yeah, specifically emergency room doctors. Emergency room workers. They are people who say if I get emotionally involved to any extent, I can't do my job.

However, I will do everything in my power to care. So this is a factor where if they worked on their empathy, it may inhibit their ability to do their job. And so what we want to kind of describe for people is the way I describe attributes is that we are all automobiles. All of us, human beings are automobiles. Some of us are Jeeps. Some of us are SUVs. And you never judge a Ferrari. A Jeep would never judge a Ferrari for not being able to go off road.

And a Ferrari would never judge a Jeep for not being able to go fast. Okay. What we have to understand is we have to understand what kind of vehicle we are and ask ourselves, will develop these attributes. to help in my jeepness or my Ferrariness, because you can be a Jeep and you can get a Ferrari engine, Ferrari tires, and you will both be a miserable Ferrari and a miserable Jeep. You will have destroyed your deepness. So that said, and I know you're someone, we've talked about this either the last time or even offline, seals are low in empathy.

We have to be to do our job. As a leader, as a father, as someone coming out of the military, as a civilian, I said, well, I actually have to develop my empathy. So I've been developing my empathy over the years. HB., who you know. We talk about this all the time and we joke about the fact that we can be in situations nowadays

like I'll see a commercial and suddenly be like I'll feel emotion I'm like what the hell's going on with me because we're actually we've developed our empathy muscle because we haven't had to have low empathy the way we did in the teams

and so you can develop an attribute it takes work, it takes self-development it takes your willingness to step into environments that test and tease that attribute so develop your patients go find environments that test and tease your patients but you have to do it in a very deliberate and thoughtful way because it may be inhibiting your performance if you're not careful.

Yeah, you know, the classic question which you also pose in the attributes, which I pose in my book as well as where does, I wrote about it the book, Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. You know, where are our leaders born are made? And yes, the answer is both. And yes, you know, you can be a person that is naturally gifted at, you know, you can be a person that is naturally gifted at, public speaking. Like there's some people that they're just really good at public speaking and you could be someone that is not naturally gifted at public speaking. And public speaking is very nice to have in a leadership position and you can get better at

that. You may not get as good as the person that was naturally get, but you can definitely get better at it. Being able to simplify things. That's a great, that's a great skill to have as a leader. You might not be naturally gifted at that. You can get better at it. Yeah.

You, if you work on it and pay attention to it, you can get better at it. What other? Here's a good news about that, which I'll say is we don't necessarily have to develop attributes we're low on because what we actually can do instead and what we're doing mostly in everyday life is we are deliberately dialing up or dialing down attributes. And so someone might be low on patients and they're saying, and I'm going to this meeting, I got to dial up my patience. But it's taking conscious effort.

I can't remember the team guy I was asking. He took the assessment. His number one was humor. And I said, do you ever have to dial down? your humor. It's like, oh, yes, because the joke I want to tell is completely inappropriate, right? So he's dialing down his humor. And so we're dialing things all the time. We have to recognize that it takes conscious energy. Do that, one, and two, at our most raw, when the shit hits the fan, it's going to be very difficult and it's not possible for us to dial that up.

So in a leadership position, someone who didn't really, I'm not, I public speak all the time. It's not like I'm not, I think it's okay. I've gotten better at it. It's not something I do, you know, for the rest of my life. I've dialed certain aspects of, my attributes. It does not mean that I'm naturally good at anymore. And what it does mean is when I complete that task, usually I'm exhausted afterwards, which is fine. You know, but we can, we can all pick times and pick elements of which we can dial up for certain situations. That's mostly what's going on. Yeah. And then another important component of this is when you recognize what your attributes are and what other people's attributes are, you can build a team where everyone's

complementary to your weaknesses. Right. So, you know, I was always looking for that person to work with me. that was really good at paperwork. Yes. And really enjoyed it, which some people enjoy it. You know, some people enjoy it. They like it.

You know, I work with accountants. My accountant loves, like they love this stuff, which is awesome. That's exactly what you want. And so finding people that are complimentary to your, like for instance,

if you're not the funny guy and you have a platoon with no fun or a team with no funny guys, man, that's not a fun time. That's going to be painful. Yeah. That's going to be painful. I was on a call the other day. You know,

it was a legal call. lawyers, the whole nine yards. And I had to crack some jokes. I mean, I just had to. I just had to because it was just too, it was too much. Yeah, I just had someone. Yeah, all of a sudden, because,

because, you know, lawyers are there to, you know, defend their ground at all costs. And all of a sudden, people that you think are your friends, you're like, wait a second. This isn't my friend. This is my enemy. Oh, no, no, no. Wait, we're just on a call with lawyers.

And lawyers are doing their lawyer thing. So I'm gonna make some jokes. So everyone remembers that who we all are. Yes. And that's the way it works. Well, and you and I talked before about our wives and our wives being opposite us. And this happens in great marriages too. My wife, she's low patience.

I'm high patience, right? That's worked beautifully for us because when patience is required, I step up. When impatience is required, she steps up. Her impatience has prevented me from going too slow or procrastinating. My patience has prevented her on occasion from being too impulsive. Same thing with introversion and extroversion. She's extroverted. I'm introverted.

If we're up to me, I'd just be a hermit in my house. I go on gig sometimes, and if I'm by myself, just because it's so energetically expensive for me to be in front of people, we'll finish. And as soon as I'm done, I just want to be by myself. I'm on the plane home. I talk to nobody, right? If she's with me and they're like, hey, there's a dinner or a cocktail,

she's like, we're going. And she makes, she forces me out there, right? So then sometimes I force her to say, let's just stay put here. Right. So if you can, the best teams are in many cases, or I shouldn't certain attributes where they're meshing, zippers in terms of the representation of them. Yeah, anytime you put together a good team, you know, it's always really obvious with

a good bill too. They had like the guy that was super risk averse with the guy that just didn't give a shit about anything. That's right. And the guy that was super detail oriented about against the, you know, with the guy that was super big picture and everyone just kind of finds their role and they create enough tension so that it all works. Yes. I'll say that. We, you know, we give these workshops and these businesses and teams take these assessments. And people, when they come up low on courage, often they're upset. But then I explain to them what the advantage is in blind spots. And like I say, I give that literal example.

Like if I'm a platoon commander, I'm priming a mission and it's some crazy shit, I'm not going to go to my high courage guy and say, hey, are we good here? Because he's like, yeah, we're fucking fine. Hey, no issue. I'm going to go to the guy who's lower because he's going to see risk in a different way. He doesn't start pointing things out. So there's advantages and blind spots to all these things. Check.

next chapter identities the subconscious source of action this section's called the rules and biases you follow in the preceding chapter I delineated the attributes as the essential code sculpting sculpting your behavior patterns they are your fundamental hows your identity or identities define your fundamental what's they furnish you with the instinctual guidelines and predispositions you adhere to amid uncertainty your few core identities play a vital role in what you do in any scenario in the throes of profound uncertainty they are often they often emerge as the sole determinants deep uncertainty challenge and stress often divest us of more surface level elements of who we are such as our

ideals habits preferences or even personality revealing the core identities that lie beneath so So this is, I am fascinated with identity. I really am. In fact, a spoiler alert, that's going to be the third book. I'm going to start writing all on identity because it's that big of a topic. But the idea is that I AM are the two most powerful words in the human language. Everything we put after those two words is how we behave. It's how it begins to form that.

However, we have to understand that we are a collection of IMs and we collect these throughout a lifetime. Some very benign and some very powerful. So I went to this high school. I'm a lacrosse player. I'm a Navy SEAL. I'm a husband. I'm a father. I'm a Metallica fan.

Whatever that is, right? Every single one of those IAMs comes with that or with them some rules and conditions that define behavior in that identity. And what we have to recognize is we behave towards that, either consciously or unconsciously, and in uncertainty, challenge, and stress, we're going to prioritize or behave towards whichever identity we're prioritizing in the moment. And so in a positive sense, we could say, well, obviously, and I know you're the same as me, two very powerful identities, Navy SEAL, husband, father.

And of course, those of us whose marriages survived, we tended to prioritize husband and father or try to. Sometimes the neighbor's like, no, no, Navy SEAL first, right? So deployment, we're in Iraq. Navy SEAL is number one, okay? However, sometimes the target would change. You'd be dealing with women, children, civilians, and you bubble up that husband, father. You change the behavior and follow those rules. In the negative sense, we've all heard of the story of the fanatical sports fan who beats the shit out of the other sports fan.

And then in standing in standing in front of the judges like, the judge is like, what would you thinking. The guy's like, I don't know what I was thinking. That person was behaving and prioritizing identity in the moment and was deprioritizing other things. If in that moment that person had said, wait a second, yes, I'm a whatever fan. I could name some teams. It would be hilarious. But yes, I'm a whatever fan, but I'm also a husband-father. I'm a businessman. That person may have behaved in a different way. And so the idea is start getting a sense of all of your identities, start to understand which are powerful, which are benign, which ones you can get rid of, you can discard. Maybe you can build a new one, right? You can create a new one, which is really probably

the ultimate challenge for anybody transitioning from the military career or any career. It's that loss of that identity, you know, and I always joking. I think the Marines have always been brilliant about this because the Marines are, once a Marine, always a Marine. This is why you can meet 90-year-old guys who say, who refer themselves as a gunning sergeant. Seals is not the same way. You know, our thing is earn your triton every day. As soon as you put that trident down, you're no longer a Navy SEAL. We're a former SEAL. So that can be a real dearth. in your identity. And if you're not, I think it probably happened for you,

but certainly for me, my husband and father was so powerful that when the Navy seal went away, I had something to fall back on. But then I said to myself, okay, I'm going to create a new one, author, entrepreneur, and I can build a new identity. And so I talked to a lot of folks who are transitioning. I'm starting to talk to,

we're starting to do this work with organizations who they have employees whose roles are becoming obsolete because of AI and suddenly their identities are in question, you know, coders especially, right? coding is going in the way of the dodo because AI is doing it. So we're working with them to help them understand how they can help these folks figure out and build new identities. And part of it is falling back on your own attributes and what your massive value proposition is

because the attributes that allowed you to do this thing, the attributes that allowed us to be Navy SEALs are the same things we put forth to any other endeavor, which is why you and I were talking before. You get Navy SEALs doing everything. I mean, from investing to writing, a lot writing books, I guess, but investing, to real estate, to contracting, to entrepreneurship, all that stuff. It's because we're falling back on attributes as the identity versus the seal thing. Yeah. And, you know, when I work with businesses, obviously we talk about culture.

And I always say that culture is the ultimate form of decentralized command because when people have the embedded culture of the organization, they know how. to behave they know 99% of the decisions they need to make based on just the culture of the organization that's the same with you know a family you know if your family has a culture within the family the children know how to behave not based on you telling them what to do because you can't be there all the time but they know oh this this is a part of this is okay for me to do this or this is not okay for me to do this and it's interesting like I never I never like hounded my kids about their grades when they were in school but they all did accept

I never said one word to him. It was just like this is what we do. This is the standard. And that kind of thing, because I was just having a discussion with people from echelon front, you know, people were talking about kids. It comes up a lot.

Like, well, how do you, you know, one person said, I need to set the standards for my kids. So they know clearly what they are. And I said as much as you can, allow them to figure out what those standards are. You know, ask them where they wanna be and what standards will bring them to that ultimate place and that becomes more embedded them and now that becomes part of their culture

and if we do a good job as leaders we actually can can create a culture that becomes people's identities which is like like you said the Marine Corps does an outstanding job of that you know he go they play the Marine Corps him there's a hundred year old Marine in a wheelchair and he will look around and other Marines will come and help him stand up for that yeah that's what they're doing because it's part of their identity it's part of their culture And it works, and they can make decisions based on that. And when it's positive identity, man, it's a beautiful thing. It can carry, like you said, in the really stressful times, in the bad times,

in the times where perhaps amygdala hijacked is a possibility. If you have a really strong identity, it can override that, and you can do the right thing instead of the wrong thing, even in stressful environments. Or do the thing that's consistent with your identity, regardless of what that thing is. And I would say this, we have to be careful. And I talk about when it comes to culture, culture is simply a group identity, what that is. And there's a difference between behaviors and standards. And I think behaviors come first and standards come after that.

But what are the core behaviors? Because we know standards can change. I know you probably the same way. You know, if my sons came back with low grades, it's not like I'm going to, I'm not going to punish them for the low grades. I'm going to get on them for how they're responding to the low grades. And what are the behaviors that they're applying? or what were the behaviors they were applying in the first place, they got them low grades, right?

That's what we're going to talk about, because identities about behavior, and if we're not careful in any culture, if we're not more deliberate in defining what it looks like to behave, to be part of this thing, the group's going to sort itself out, and you may not like the answers as a leader. You have to really be on top of that.

Yeah, I always talk about the fact that a gang polices itself, and when you're, well, certainly, in a seal, It's a gang. Yeah, and you know, I always say, hey, I was a platoon commander. What did I have to do when someone was late? I didn't have to do anything when someone was late. Right. What I have to do in somebody's forgot a piece of gear? I didn't have to do anything. That shit was getting handled. It was getting handled. The gang is going to police itself, which is as it should be. Yeah. The potency identities for teams is what we just talked about. Yeah. The potency of a collective identity within a team is immeasurable. This alignment isn't just about the common goal. It's a synergy of values and a unison of intent where each member's actually. are harmonized by shared principles and expectations. So that's the culture that we're talking about. So what I did when I was commanding officer, I talked about in the book was instead of doing a command philosophy, I basically, we did a command identity.

We basically designed a series of I-Am statements. Now, what I did is I designed them, and then I took them to team leaders and troop chiefs, and this looks good. And we used them, and they actually worked. And the one mistake I made in looking back was, I recognized that as soon as I left command, the identities as IAMs disappeared.

And I said, you know what? I made a mistake here. And the mistake I made was I never, that first initial trough of IAMs I made and I, you know, got approved through the team leaders. What I should have done about six months into my command tour was say, okay, guys, let's come together and as a group, let's figure out what these statements are. And then it becomes a team thing versus a rich thing. And so my mistake was it worked for the time being, but it didn't endure because

when Rich left, it left, you know. And had I done the, the job of getting the team to do it, then it would still be, it would still be in existence. And, you know, but anyway, these are lessons. And by the way, the best people, one of the best groups on the world who does this, and I mention them with the Girl Scouts. The Girl Scouts have what are called the Girl Scout Code. And there are a series of behaviors that they memorize, I am this, I do this, and go anywhere anywhere on the world, and they know exactly how to behave. Yeah, I wrote a series of books called The Way of the Warrior Kid. And the process in the book that the kid goes through is, you know, he's a kind of a wimpy kid,

can't do any pull-ups, doesn't, is getting picked on by the school bully, Kenny Williamson, followed by Nathan James. He doesn't know his times tables, so he thinks he's stupid and he doesn't know how to swim. And so he's all sad about all that stuff. And luckily his uncle Jake comes to stay with him for the summer. And his uncle Jake says, you know, what do you want to do? You want to go out and you want to go for swim tomorrow? You want to go play ball?

He's like, well, I can't play ball on the song with sports. I don't even know how to swim. And Uncle Jake says, hey, because Uncle Jake was a seal. And Uncle Jake says, hey, we can fix these problems. But, you know, you got to commit. It's going to be hard. So they spend the summer, teaches him how to do pull-ups, teaches them how to work out, teaches them how to eat right,

teaches him how to study, all these things. But in researching, he has to figure out what it means to be a warrior. And he researches, he finds all these different codes, the Ranger Creed, the seal, code, the Viking code, the samurai, the Bushido, the knights of chivalry, the chivalry code. So he finds all those codes. And ultimately, he writes his own code for the warrior kid. And it is a bunch of, I am this.

And he goes through each thing of what it means to be a warrior kid. So very similar idea that I did. And now what's cool is I get kids. that write their own warrior kid codes. And it's cool because different kids, and that's the drill in the book is you write your own. Or he writes the kid Mark writes his own code.

His uncle doesn't dictate it to him. And that's what a lot of kids do. Because some kids are into soccer, some kids are into jihitsu, some kids are into wrestling. And some kids work on a farm. And so they have different, you know,

they have different things that they have to do to support the situation that they're in. But very, you know, living without a code, is very rudderless way to go through life. Well, and we're often just subject to other people's codes. Whatever identity we're slapping ourselves, we just take along those rules. And if we're not careful, like, you know, I went to Purdue. As a Purdue guy, I'm supposed to hate Notre Dame.

You know, that's what I'm supposed to do, you know, but sometimes I don't hate her. Sometimes I like Notre Dame, right? So you just have to make a conscious, really the idea is become more conscious of this stuff because we are being directed, our behavior is being directed in myriad ways throughout our lives. And sometimes if we're not conscious of it, we're going to be behaving in a way. It's like, wait a second. We're going to look back. It's like, why the hell did I do that?

It's because you were just kind of the mom mentality in the negative sense. No doubt. Next chapter is called objectives turn purpose into concrete goals. What is your purpose in life? This is a critical question, one that guides us towards understanding our values, our vision for the world and our place within it. What ideals inspire you? What vision do you want to bring to life? What legacy do you aspire to leave behind?

These reflections help us define our purpose. However, while having a purpose is powerful, it can sometimes feel too vast and abstract, making it difficult to target. High performers, those who thrive amid life's uncertainties and challenges, don't just linger on lofty ideals. They transform their purposes into concrete objectives. Yeah. So, I mean, again, this is me as a teenager, knowing that I wanted to serve, I wanted to do

something special, something unique. be different, okay? It wasn't until I said, I'm going to be Navy SEAL, that I began to move towards something. You can't DPO your way towards a purpose. It's just too soft. You have to pick concrete objectives. This is the guy I met who I want to be healthy,

but healthy is a huge goal. So it was like, I'm going to run a marathon. And he was able to DPO his way to running a marathon. And so we just have to understand that purpose is fine, and it's valuable. But if we want to actually take action on something, generate a specific objective and start moving your way. But again, it's kind of like keep your eyes off the prize.

It's that target. I love your target analogy. That has to say soft most of the time because if you focus on it, it's way too far away. So you focus on your front site, but you still, I always call the objective is like that lighthouse in the distance. It's always kind of guiding in a very soft way. You just know the cardinal direction, basically. But the cardinal direction, you may be on your, as you're focusing on your front site here,

you know, moving horizons, it may sometimes feel like you're moving away from it. I always use the climber analogy. The climber stands at that base of that hill or mountain and looks at the top and says, that's my objective. And then usually maps out a general pathway. But they know they have to get climbing to start doing that. And inevitably on their climbing, they're going to find a place where they thought that you could go one way, but they realize, I can't go that way.

I have to look for a better handhold or foothold. Well, that next best handhold or foothold might be to the left, to the right and down, which means it's going to feel like they're moving away from their goal. when they're doing that, but they're not. All they're doing is picking a new horizon, and ultimately they keep that goal in mind, that lighthouse. So we have to turn purpose into objectives and move towards them. Check.

Another little techniques you got in here is acknowledge and release. This is talking about your objective. What is your objective? This is the acknowledged section. What is your objective? Maybe you already have one. Acknowledge it. Be clear and specific with yourself about its parameters,

any relevant constraints, and your degree of commitment to it. And then the other offset or the other section is release. Once you set an objective, release it. There's no need to dwell because it's important to you. You won't forget it. When you zoom out to set horizons, acknowledge it. But the rest of the time, focus on what is happening in the present moment.

You have a long way to go to reach your objective, the unpredictable strike. You will need to be a tentative to current circumstances to perform your best. releasing fully and giving 100% of your attention to the present moment is especially important in acute challenges. So that's same. This is, this is, I don't think about Friday of Hell Week on Monday. You know, I know finish, finish Hellweek is the objective, but I'm releasing it because if I think about that on Monday, I'm going to quit. So just like we have an objective on a mission, we know what the end state, we know what we want the end state to be. I'm not thinking about that when I'm in the helicopter doing insertion.

That's not the part I'm thinking about. And you talk about objectives for teams as well. set clear objective for your team. If you have multiple objectives, be extremely clear about which is the focus at any given time. Every member must know this and use it as a clear and cardinal direction. And you mentioned this, by the way,

because you do this naturally when you said you're in, sometimes going to be in a meeting and people are kind of going down rabbit holes or whatever, and you re-anchor them. What are we here for? What's the mission? Let's re-anchor for a second. And now let's figure out from here. And then we're going to let it go and start figuring out what we want to DPO towards.

Next chapter, dynamic subordination. Dynamics to ordination is team synergy at its finest. Team members remain present and move in unison working seamlessly to enhance one another's strengths and buttress weaknesses. When one team member's specific skills or attributes are needed, they step up and lead. The others are then automatically moved to support them fully. Once their particular expertise is no longer required, they step back allowing someone else to take the lead. This ensures that the most capable person for the current task or challenge is always at the forefront,

taking the fullest possible advantage of each member's strengths. Yeah. I mean, this is quite literally how high-performing teams operate. It's a instead of a pyramid or a flat line or a upside-down pyramid, it's a blob. And what that tells us, it's kind of a call, I also call it alpha hopping, that alpha position just hops to where it needs to be. But what this tells us is that our, our role on a team has nothing to do with our position. Our role on a team has everything to do with what we are there to contribute to the team.

And as a leader, it's our responsibility to build a dynamically subordinating team. You and I know, experientially, we were in charge. We did hundreds of missions. We were in charge of every single one. It did not mean we were always being supported. In fact, most of the time was the opposite. Now, sometimes the environment would shift and they'd be in support of us, but it's all environmentally based, and we're creating a team that steps up and steps back.

The only way you can do that is you have to have the team understand themselves, their attributes, what they're bringing into the equation. If you have a team, I need to know who the jeeps are. I need to know who Ferraris are and you know who the ambulance are is the party bus side So we know who we're pushing And then we have to give the opportunity for people to step up And allow them to start building that confidence

And exercising that muscle Yeah, it's thinking about the attribute thing It's kind of funny when new guys show up to the seal platoons And they get assigned what their job is going to be It's like it's I was just thinking the Ferrari versus the the F350 Yeah Like the F350 dude is getting a machine gun and the Ferrari guy is going to be a point man.

Or lead climber, yeah, yeah. Or security lead climber. And then the smart guy, he's going to be a radio man. And that's what's happening. That's what's happening. Yeah, it's that immediate kind of recognition. I'm going to make a judgment about you. Hopefully I'm right.

Sometimes we're wrong, right? And then people, we know guys who they start one thing and they don't like it. Or, you know, guys who stay in something and they're just, they become the best. We see the Jeep early. guy's like a Jeep. That guy's going to be my Jeep for the platoon, right? So, and it works out. Yeah, and then this, this idea of dynamic subordination.

This is, you know, decentralized command. You have different people that are going to step up and make things happen. Yeah. And they're going to be, usually they have, if there's something going on, that's a problem or an issue, the people that are their closest to it, generally speaking, are going to have going to be the best person to find solutions to that problem. Although it's the person that's overall in charge looking at going to go. Hold on a second.

You don't know you have these other assets available so we can help you out here, which is, you know, why it all works. Yeah. Because everyone has a solid ability to communicate with each other and tell each other what's going on. And by the way, when I say, hey, Rich, I got a problem over here. I'm going to enter this building.

And Rich goes, hold on a second. We have overhead assets. There's no one in that building. And I'm not like, well, you don't know what it's like down here. And I go, oh, thanks for the information. But if I say, hey, Rich, there's actually movement behind the building. I need to go check out. You don't go, well, don't listen to me.

No. We listen to each other. We trust each other. And that's what makes this work. It's why I actually emphasize, I call it dynamic subordination, because you could call it dynamic leadership or whatever, but it emphasizes the humility of the act in terms of I am willing to listen and show everything about my strengths and weaknesses so that I can support you when I need to and step up when I need to.

Yeah. This is a section of my book, Leadership Strategy and Tactics subordinate your ego. There you go. And you absolutely have to. And the amazing thing is, you know, if I've got a giant ego and you have to work with me, you can be mad that I have a big ego all day but if you come up me and say hey you need a you got a big ego Jocko what's that gonna do?

Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know my ego was big. Hold on. Let me let me just let me just reduce that a little bit. No, the only person's ego you can support it is your own. And you go, hey, Johncoe has, you know, sounds like a good plan. How can I support that thing? And all of a sudden I go, oh, well, he's here to support. So I don't see this.

I don't see you as a threat anymore. Right. I don't see your ego as a threat to my ego so I can, actually we can have a, we can talk and we can communicate and we can figure out the best way to do things. Yep. So some of the things you talk about with, with this utilizing dynamic subordination is build trust.

Yep. Right. Obviously in the way that you build trust, you have to give trust. Yep. You have to give people some level of trust. Now, does that mean when Rich shows up to work for me? The first thing I do is say, hey, Rich, we got an op going tomorrow night. Why don't you go ahead and lead it?

Right. No, that's, we're not there yet. But I give you something small. Say, hey, can you run the vehicle tonight? Hey, can you clear this outbuilding here? You take your team and click. Oh, yeah, got it. No problem.

So we start small and we build from there. That's number one. Number two, establish communication. Yeah, the idea is, and I talk about the four elements of trust in there, there's there's competence, consistency, character, and compassion. So competence is do the thing right. Consistency is do the thing right over time. Character is do the right thing. Compassion is do the right thing because you care about me as a human being.

And so I think all four factors are important. people who think that competence doesn't matter and it's all it's all float lofty and lovey stuff it's not you have to be good and be competent what you're talking about is giving people the chance to explore their competence and dial in their competence and then begin to show some consistency of that so you hit the first two i think the real message on this is most people they miss those other two ones and they they try to form trust they think it's all about competency and consistency and it's not if we're not if we're not doing the right thing and if we're not showing people that they're cared for, right? That this person really cares about me. You're not going to have that

really strong bond of trust, that long-lasting, that enduring trust. And so all four of these are specific. They all require behaviors. So like you said, it's a generative act. I behave in a way that allows someone to receive that and then reciprocate. It doesn't, it's a very much I go first. And that's what leaders have to get across. The leader who says, you know what, I'll, I'll trust them when they prove it to me. No, no, it doesn't work that way. You've got to go first. You've got to be vulnerable first, just like you're saying. You've got to give that person a chance to, you've got to give them the rope. And like I say, you give them responsibility. You keep them, you keep accountability. You know, you also encourage accountability because they'll see that. But you need to model these

behaviors. You want to be model the behavior you want to see more of and the reward the behavior you want to see more of. And so most teams, I think, you know, we could, we could certainly make an argument for certain teams erring more towards certain of those factors. I think SEAL team, competence and consistency, probably carry maybe even more weight, a little bit more weight than the other ones, who knows? Athletics, probably, you know, skills and competency, but carry more weight. But at the end of the day, all four factors are going to be involved. And if we're not wary of all four factors, and if we're not deliberately working on all four factors as leaders, we're going to have a very temporary trust. Yeah. One of the things that we talk about at Eschon Front is the idea of what

is a relationship. And we have five components of a relationship, trust, list, and respect, influence and care and all those things in order to get them you have to give them yes you know if I want you to listen to me yeah I have to listen to you if I want you to trust me I have to trust you if I want you to treat me with respect I got to treat you with respect if I want to have influence over you I've got to allow you to influence me and if I want you to care about me I better show that I care about you and if you give those things to other people they will reciprocate hey will you end up with some one out of 20 people that's a sociopath and that will try and take advantage.

Yep, and it'll be so obvious, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's actually no factor. Yeah. It's no factor. And you, that's why you give a little bit of trust in time. Yeah. It's a, it's a choice. Trust is a choice. We, it's, uh, we choose to trust people based on the way they behave.

And if you think about someone you trust in your life, you do so because of the way who trusts you, it's because you've behaved in a way that allows them to choose you. But I say the same thing about leadership. And I think, you know, one of the, one of the, one of the things I'll add to our leaders born or made, the big addition, I would say is leaders are chosen. You know, because you can call yourself a leader all day long. If you don't have people following you, I got bad news for you, right? And so we behave in a way that allows someone to say that as someone I will follow.

And that's why all of us had the experience in the military where there'd be on occasion, someone who outranked us above us in the chain of command, and we'd look at that person and say, I wouldn't follow that person anywhere. Meanwhile, there's someone over here to the right who has no hierarchical position whatsoever. I'd follow that person to hell and back. And it's because of the way we behave. So it's all about these behaviors. We have to go first in these behaviors.

Yeah, there's the leadership on paper, and then there's the leadership in reality. Yeah, I would actually say the stuff on paper is being in charge, and then the leadership is the reality, right? Yeah, yeah. Number two, establish communication. Number three, be vulnerable. Sharing, strengthening, weaknesses openly, understanding that vulnerability means being transparent about both. Yeah, if you're trying to, if you're a key thing to remember about that that will keep you in line is everybody can see. There's no one that you're fooling.

When you act like you either know what you're doing, you act like you have a good plan, you act like you're able to, you act like you're competent, you act like you have good character. If you're trying to do that, everybody sees it. It looks fake. Well, and the advantage, again, I'll say the, and I'm very cognitive and I concede the fact that in the SEAL teams, we've had some of these advantages built in. But what are the advantages of the SEAL team environment is the environment itself? The environment will keep you humble all day long.

The ocean, you turn back, you're back on. on the ocean, it will kill you. I don't care how good of a surfer you are, it will kill you. Same thing at 20,000 feet jumping out of airplanes or whatever. The environment is deeply humbling, and so you are inculcated with a sense of humility right off the bat. That's what Buds does. And that translates. That translates. There's no one, I mean, anybody, I don't think I ever saw it. But obviously, if we did, if we saw someone on our team who refused to ever say they couldn't do something or admit they're wrong, that person's off the team. I mean, we're not going to, we're not going to work with that person.

No one will. You know, so that humility is, it's not just, but it's also, I want to be emphasized, it's not just about showing our weaknesses, is about also emphasizing our strengths. That's where the confidence comes in. Hey, I am a Jeep. I'm going to be good at this. I'm going to be phenomenal for you at this. Can't really do that.

And that's where we start to dynamically subordinate very effectively. And then create low risk opportunities for practice, which are what I kind of talked about with like, hey, giving people the chance. And then we go into this thing, you know, you use the term. The person, quote, in charge. Dynamics subordination doesn't eliminate the need for someone to be in charge. This individual has three critical roles, cultivate trust, which we talked about, delegate responsibility, pretty straightforward. And, of course, maintain accountability, which is what I call ownership.

You own this. It's yours. Yes. Yeah. But how many, I mean, we've seen this too. And unfortunately, it wasn't too often where there was a leader who delegated both. Oh, yeah, for sure. And you just don't trust those people.

And I can name a couple. I won't, but I could name a couple in my career that would do that. And I can also name the people who always held accountability. And again, by modeling that, it's not like you're taking accountability away from that person. You're modeling that so that they understand what that means and they will likely maintain accountability as well. But we don't delegate responsibility and accountability. We delegate responsibility. We own accountability.

You know, at least leaders do. People who are in charge, maybe not. You got a section which you kind of mentioned already, but real leadership. And I'll fast forward here. True leaders don't celebrate or elevate themselves. Instead, they set the example for how they want their team members to perform. They seek opportunities to help and serve, considering no task beneath them. They go the extra mile to serve the mission shared by everyone.

True leaders don't seek to stand out or to be recognized as the leader. In fact, they don't even give themselves the label leader. It is given to them by their team members. true leaders are identifiable by having inspired followers eager to identify with them and be on their team. That's a lot different than, hey, I outrank you all so you work for me. So therefore, I'm the leader. Yeah, that's right, which we've seen. Oh, definitely. Trust is chapter eight, the frame. Yeah, so that gets into the four competencies. Yeah, yeah. Competence do the right thing. Consistency, do the thing over and over again. Character do the right thing. And then compassion,

do the right thing because you care. These are things, again, you've got to build over time, and they're going to be helpful. And then we get in chapter nine, which we've, again, we've touched on it already, but culture, the engine. I've described dynamic support nation and trust the necessary to sustain it, but there are three other key elements of building and maintaining team culture necessary for long-term thriving.

One, establish and leverage team identity. Two, properly evaluate team performance. Three, bring in the right. team members. We have to understand that there are people who just don't fit on teams. Every team has its own unique identity. And if we try to force someone into that equation that doesn't fit those behaviors, it's not going to work.

It's going to just going to turn toxic. And that person might be a fine person. This is the selection process for SEALs. The selection process is such because it's trying to distill these people who have this identity, the same type of identity, these behaviors. and the selection process does it for us. But, yes, establish the IMs. What does that look like?

Bring in the, you know, model that stuff and then bring in the people, you know, form the right team. And I understand that the teams have to be set up in a way where you're maximizing everybody's, this is the be vulnerable. We're maximizing everybody's unique contribution. So we may have a low performer, but that person might be performing low

because we have them in the wrong position. You know, and that's on us to do that. We don't, it shouldn't just be get rid of them. That's the, that might be the easy. I say it's the easy solution. Usually it's a hard solution, but it's on us if they're in a position that's, they're not in the right seat on the bus. We have to put them on the right seat.

And I had this happen. We had a, I was deployed, I had a supply department and it was like half, innovative and future outlook kind of acquisition type stuff, half logistics, logkeeping type stuff. We had a sailor in the futures look section that was grossly underperforming, like bringing down around. I brought her into my office and I just had a conversation. I'd already done some of the attributes work.

I didn't have the nuance that I do now, but I recognize quite quickly that her attribute set did not match at all for what I was asking her to do. Luckily, it was perfect for the other section. All I did was move her over. Her performance skyrocketed, you know. And so that was on me. What I could have done, I could say, oh, you're out of here, your low performer, here's a low fit, right?

That was the, that's the, I think that's the coward's way of doing it. You know, you have to, if you're there to truly empower the people, that you are trying to lead or hoping that they'll see you as a leader, you need to help them bring out the best in themselves by putting it over. Yeah, and there's, in businesses, there's so many different things going on, so many different lines of operation that a lot of times,

it's like, oh, this person didn't quite fit there, but they have a good attitude. Like, oh, maybe they'll fit in over here. Maybe they can do this.

They might not be able to pull that off, and that's exactly what we should always be doing. And I get asked a lot of times, you know, I've got someone that just, you know, they come in, you know at nine to five at four fifty nine they're clocked out but you know what can i can do to motivate

them and i'm like well you got a really good worker you know you got someone that's consistent shows up every day balanced all day their balance is good like you know i wouldn't discount them ever wanting to do more but check in with them every six months hey is everything still going well yeah i'm having to you know all solid yeah you know are you looking to get promoted well honestly like i have three kids right now and it's wrestling season and, you know, maybe talk to me in, you know, in the spring. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. Check with them in the spring. Well, one of the kids did really well. We're sending them to camp. I'm going to be driving. Okay, cool. And, you know, you look up in two years. The guy goes, you know what? I'm ready to, I'm ready to move up. I want some more

responsibility. Okay, great. You know, the other, the other ugly truth of that might be is that I've had this happen. I've had leaders sometimes say, have these people, they're just, or one or two people, and they're just, they're there that this time, they're gone. And I dug into it. I'm like, you know what the problem is here is it's your task organization your ability to prioritize because this person this leader was horrible they'd waste so much time throughout the day meanwhile these people were nine to five they were getting their shit done and they was like do this this this they were very organized and getting their shit done so so economy of work also has to be like don't judge someone's economy work they might just be getting their shit done and

they're balanced their lives they're getting their work out in whatever i don't know the reality behind the situation but my older daughters would spend so much time doing homework hours and hours every day. My son, a lot less. Still great grades, all of them. And also COVID, so you can kind of discount those couple of years because my son figured out how to work that system. But I was talking to my youngest daughter who does not do as much homework, we'll say,

as my older kids did. And you all saying, you know, your sisters used to do three, four, four, five hours of homework a night. You're doing like a half an hour, an hour. And I was like, why is that? And you know what she said. I'm more efficient. She just put out the word.

That's right. I'm more efficient than they were. Okay. Yeah. My younger son, he's the same thing. And he's like, yeah, dad, I have free blocks, free periods of school. I just go, I get my, I knock on my home before I come home. And he has the grades to prove it.

Yeah. That's the same exact. My daughter said the same thing. She says, well, we get time in class. And I get to work. Yeah. So there you go. There you go.

Efficiency. That's where Echo Charles claims a lot of around this unit right here. He claims a lot of efficiency. You know, a lot of efficiency gets called out on. You say if everyone on the team commits to an identity, they truly care about, they are instantly bound together, sharing not just the values, but also specific rules and conditions by which they uphold those values. This is why many organizations display their values prominently. You want something fun to do with your clients? kick off

whatever section you're doing about culture and read the, no tell them who they are, but you read the Enron values. Have you ever read? The Enron values are like, like the absolute highest standard

of integrity. It's just the most epic thing to read. And you go, man, this must be a great, this must be a great organization. And it's freaking Enron. And it's specifically about like integrity and all this stuff.

It's so comical to see that that, that's what they allegedly aspired to be. Well, this is a great example also of people don't do what you say. They do what you do. And kids are the same way, by the way. But yeah, I mean, if you purport that you're an organization does this, this, this, and you're doing the opposite or you're not doing that. People, you know, there's a reason why in certain commands, you'd be like, oh, the skipper's not here today and behavior would change, right?

I mean, there's a reason, you know. So we have to be cognizant that our behavior is way more business. Like you said, fakeness can be seen. People will see what you're doing. Whoever the leader is doing, they are setting the culture with their behavior. They really are. That is the foundation of so many problems. This is a lack of awareness.

And people think that people don't see what they're doing. That's right. You know, I learned this because as a young enlisted guy, I was the youngest and most junior guy in my first two seal platoons. So I was always watching. And man, the things that I would notice about my leadership, three minutes late. Oh, I guess that's a, oh, forgot a piece of gear. Oh, guess you didn't either.

Oh, didn't, you know, took his H gear off in our, in our perimeter. Oh, okay. I guess I could do that. I guess that's what you're doing. You know, like, it was always judging, always judging, always judging. And, you know, they would act like none of us could see what they're doing. Right. They would act like none of us could see what they're doing.

And it's like, you're crazy. Yeah. You're crazy if you think we can't see this stuff. It was a level of arrogance to, think that they're just a little bit smarter. No one can kind of see what's going on. No one can see what we're doing. I'm telling you, your troops can absolutely see what you do.

You might as well own it. Yeah. Well, I know we have to say this. To forgive even those who may not be as arrogant, it's just an ignorance and a blindness to say to, because to, and I've been, I think we've all been guilty once in. Certainly as a leader, I've been guilty of, oh, yeah, it doesn't matter. You know, what I, you know, it doesn't. I mean, that's, my behavior is not going to affect them. I mean, it's just, it matters.

Yeah. I guess I do definitely, I pin it on arrogance because I can't imagine someone thinking, like, oh, the team, if I show up a few minutes late, that won't impact the team. To me, it's like they're not going to see that, you know, show up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. You know, so maybe that's my blonde spot thinking that someone could not think that. Right, yeah. No, it's, I think people just, they just don't know.

There's an ignorance there sometimes that it doesn't. But again, not everybody's designed to be a leader. Through that. No, I mean, it really not. So, yeah. Evaluating performance, the behaviors of the list of I AM statements also double as performance evaluation tools. They allow you to clearly see if someone is acting in line with the team's values.

Team members must uphold the values with the actions outlined in support of them. If the team members operate according to different rules and conditions, they are out of alignment with identity, conduct honest and supportive conversations about whether they can start enacting proper behaviors. and what it might take to achieve that. You know, National Front, we've got, we have our evaluations are based on our principles of combat, right? So cover move, simple, prioritize next year,

you, decentralized command, extreme ownership. So when we rank our employees, it's like, oh, yeah, hey, how do you think you're doing a cover move right now? Yes. You know, oh, are you doing a good job with simplifying? Do you understand what the priorities are? How is your decentralized command? Are you empowering your people?

Are you taking ownership? Like, that's literally how we rank our people because those are our values, that's our identity. And that, by the way, stems into how they behave on a day-day basis. Like, if you have this very clear, then in a decision-making moments,

they can lean right on that idea, right on that I am. And it's very fast. It's actually the one, I loved our seal ethos. I really did. But my one complaint was it was too complex. It was just too many words.

You could not, even though the trainees memorize it, they forget it as soon as they eat. We couldn't lean on it. It needed to be simple and like this is, this is it. I was there when we wrote that. Yeah, I think you remember you saying. Yeah.

And I was like Mr. Simplicity. Yeah. And I literally asked the group, I said, hey, are we writing this for the 05 and above? Or are we writing this for the E5s? Right. I don't think that O5s, this shouldn't be directed at them. Right. This should be directed at the E5s that are coming in the teams that are out, you know,

doing things without supervision. This is what's going to supervise them. Right. And I made a little bit. Trust me, if I wanted to say that stuff, this thing would have been a Shakespearean soliloquy. And they did have a flip side to the card that was like four things. Yeah. And I forget what they were.

But they did simplify. They made like a fully simplified version. But again, yeah, I thought it was a little bit too verbose. Yeah. It's beautiful. And it's great. It's great for retirements and change of commands. Yeah.

But you're not going to remember it in the in the shit necessarily. You know, we used to do something with clients. We would do something called mission and mantra. Yeah. Where we would have them write out a mission statement. And, you know, the mission statement could be three, four, five sentences long. But even that, you know, you get to four or five sentences. It's hard for, you know, a person on the front lines to keep that front of mind.

So we'd come up with mantras that they could then within their different departments. So, you know, the logistics part might have the mantra of on time on target. the sales might have the mantra of, you know, customers always right, whatever. But then those would be tied back into the mission of the organization. So mission and mantra, it's a good drill. And we kind of did that again. I think that the C-Lethos was and is needed. And then breaking it down.

And again, I forget what they called like the shorter version of it, but it obviously didn't get propagated the way it should have if you didn't even ever see it. I don't remember seeing it. Here's a good question for you. And I have my own answers. but if you were to boil down the seal, the Navy SEAL identity into two or three sentences, two or three I AM statements, what would those be? I would have to like think about it, but out of the gate is I will never quit because I think

that I don't think there's anyone that would disagree with that. I think there has to be something about taking care or I will execute the mission. And I think the last part is I will take care of my brothers. I totally agree. So the two that I thought of right out of the bat is I will never quit and I will take care of my teammates. Yeah. Because that is core to everything we believe.

And if I'll, even in civilian life, and it's been 10 years now since retirement. More for you, I know. But that's still very true. And the way I behave, even in regular your society is, you know, I always like this, the thing in that teams was like, don't be that guy. And the whole don't be that guy was this idea that never be the person who is, behaving in a way that that inhibits or slows your team. You know, so if it means that you have your luggage ready when you're putting in the overhead,

you know, when you're getting airlines, which drives me fucking bananas, right? Or having everything, you just don't be that guy. And so, so yeah, those, it's a tricky thing, but I think buds, I think buds, even to some degree, even accomplish the mission, may not be as drilled as hard as those other two things is, I will not quit and I will not let down my teammates. So those would be the two I chose. And I think Accomplice the Mission gets there too. But we all know that sometimes, when we've talked about this,

sometimes the best course of action in the moment is to actually quit the mission, is to actually turn around, right? So the Accomplice of the Mission becomes something we can, by retreating now, we can live to fight another day type thing. But it's certainly those two. Yeah. And to me, you know, one of the things that I've explained to many young SEAL leaders over the years is taking care of your brothers

and how that gets warped. Yes. And in unfortunate ways because, you know, take, you hear that from day one. You hear that in boot camp. Take care of your people. Take care of your kids.

Take care of your brothers. Take care of your team, team first, all that stuff. But then it's like, hey, Rich, wants to, you know, head home early for the weekend instead of finish training. Right.

It's like, well, you don't want to take care of Rich. So go ahead. Right, right. Okay. Now Rich wants to, you know, he got in trouble, but I'm going to cover it up for him because I'm going to take care of Rich.

Okay, well, and you look up and all of a sudden Rich is in real trouble. Yes. And he's got real problems because I didn't take it. Or even worse, he's not prepared for combat. And now we have problems in combat. So taking care of your brothers means you're making sure that they're doing everything they can be, they can do to be ready. Yes.

To accomplish the mission. And so this is by the way, this, I will say, um, I, there's a, you know, again, there's a joke, as you know, and the teams between officers who are academy guys or OCS or ROTC. You know, and, you know, the joke, the running joke is the academy guys are a little bit more stuffy and things like that, which is really largely not true. However, one of the things I noticed, I was the only Rotsie guy to make it through my Buds class, all the rest of our academy guys. So all my buddies, they made me an honorary academy guy, which is great because I would have

never made it in the academy event. But I was thinking about this identity thing. And in most cases, what I saw in the Naval Academy officers or something, very interesting. And that is, in the Naval Academy, you are for four years inculcated with this identity of naval officer, naval officer, naval officer. It's everything about naval officer. And then once they finish the academy, they go to seal training and become a Navy SEAL. ROTC guys, I'll just speak for myself, we're not inculcated with that that much. I mean, ROTCIA's joke is the easiest commissioning source, you know, because you drill once a week,

you do some stuff, you're an officer, right? So coming into the teams, the Navy SEAL identity is a very powerful one. And you have to consistently remind yourself of the officer, of the naval officer identity. If you prioritize Navy SEAL identity over naval officer identity, there are situations that's going to get you in trouble, and we've seen it,

because then you're getting into the thing, oh, take care of the boys type of thing. I don't care of what's going on. So I always found that my academy counterparts, certainly the guys I, my friends and the guys I worked with, I just admired their, the solidness of that naval officer identity.

And they brought forth that. For them, it was naval officer, Navy SEAL. You know, and I admittedly for me, it was like, well, Navy SEAL, Navy Oster. I had to really work to get that other piece. So it is, it does matter. It does matter. And the question then becomes, for the enlisted guy,

it's even, quote, worse because, and it was for actually many years when they were starting to do the very specialized stuff for SEAL candidates at boot camp. They were separating them early. They were creating these guys entitled guys, right? And so for them, they didn't take into account that, hey, if you create a person whose whole thing is Navy SEAL, and that's the number

one thing versus I serve this country. I'm a servant to the people of this country. You're going to have issues when the hard decisions start to need to be made. So identity is important. It really is. Yeah. The don't quit thing. And this is something, again, I wrote about it in leadership strategy and tactics. You know, we'd take a guy, we would take like a hallway and we put a barricaded shooter at the end of the hallway. And, you know, the hall boss, whoever it was, would send two guys down the hallway. get killed this paintball this is training they get killed paintball what do you do two more guys that what happens them they get killed two more guys they get killed and and we would have young seal

officers in many cases young seal officers who had you know they're out of buds don't quit don't quit don't quit don't quit don't quit to not go down that hallway is mission failure yeah and so even the don't quit thing you have to be you know every one of these things there's a dichotomy of all yes there is yeah gray area to the nth degree and you're going to have a problem. And that's the other thing with the reason that mission, I think popped into my head is because if you don't prioritize mission accomplishment,

then a lot of other things can start to take a priority. Yes, yes. You know, and so we have one job. You know, something I told my guys was like, hey, if you, this is, we get to Ramadi. We get to Ramadi and I'm like, hey, because there's no drinking allowed. if you want to jeopardize us being able to conduct operations

because you want to do some shit that you're not supposed to be doing, I'm going to send you out of here immediately and you will not be coming back. Because if you're going to disrupt the opportunity that we have to kill the enemy, you're gone. Yeah, yeah. And so, but if you pull the mission out of that,

well, you know, we want to kind of like, you know, enjoy ourselves too or whatever the case may be. It's like, no. So that having that mission, of mind and plus I always I always thought that was the ultimate trump card when I was in when I was running training So I'm the I'm the you know the OIC of the training detachment and you know I used to say guys if you get in trouble And you can't go back to a team and go on deployment you're doing al Qaeda's job Yeah, you're taking yourself off the battlefield right right so having that mission focus

Taking care of your brothers which you should be in all those important ways and then never quit because we don't give up. Now, are there times where we make a tactical retreat? Hell yeah, there better be. You better have an open mind to that. So I think those would be the three that I would end up with. Well, you mentioned something really important there. I actually wrote a blog post on this and I titled,

it's okay to quit, just never give up. And I separated the difference, you know, because I tell the story. There's three out of the hundreds of missions I did. There are three occasions where I turned around. I basically quit the week. I quit the mission for us because everything wasn't lining up. I think we talked about this last time.

but that's not giving up. That's just quitting in the moment because what we're doing is not right. And so we have to make that distinction in terms of quit or give up. And I think you're correct about that. And I will say this, mission accomplishment also, it comes with nuance. I mean, if you are in a hostage rescue mission, the intensity of the accomplishment of that operation is going to be different than say you're going for the top facilitator of whatever, of this thing. I'm going to put more, I'm going to put more emphasis, for example, on making sure we're doing safe movement when I'm getting the facilitator versus hostage rescues. I mean, this is it.

This is our business, right? So everything becomes about that hostage. So, yeah, that nuance has to be explained and described as well. And it's, like you said, it's all a gray area. Yeah, yeah. Fast forward a little bit. We're getting close to the end of this thing. But bringing in the right team members, skills can be taught and experiences can be gained, but attributes and

identity are much harder to change and far more important. Focus your hiring on attributes and identity and your team will be more sustainably able to perform as needed, especially when it counts. Yep. That's like that's that's that's the new guy who is now a Navy seal and you say, hey, you're, you're our jump, you're our jump master and the guy's never jump before, right? You are, you are inculcating an identity. That person is, well, okay, I know nothing about this skill, but my identity as a Navy seal is I'm not going to let by it down my teammates. So I'm going to figure everything out, right? So inculcate those core elements and you'll have performance.

I'm going to close out the book with this. Life is an unpredictable voyage filled with challenges that test our resilience, adaptability, encourage. These moments of uncertainty are not obstacles to be feared, but opportunities to be seized. They are the crucibles in which our true capabilities are forged and refined by recognizing and cultivating our innate attributes. We equip ourselves to navigate these turbulent waters with confidence and grudence. grace.

The journey of self-discovery and growth is ongoing. It requires a commitment to continuous reflection and development. It demands that we remain open to new experiences, willing to learn from our successes and our failures and ready to adapt to ever-changing circumstances. In this journey, every step, no matter how small, contributes to our overall growth and prepares us for the challenges ahead. So there you go. There it is.

It's all there. Prepare for uncertainty. That's what we need to do. What uncertainties do you have ahead? What do you got going on? What's next? Well, like I said before, we're building a brand new platform for our assessment tool. So that's taken a pretty sizable investment. So is this a digital platform? Be a digital platform that allows for clients to interact with the assessments in a more meaningful way. They can use it for hiring. They can use their performance evaluating. They can see how people relate to each other on teams based on attributes and they can predict that. So that's a really cool project. My wife and I, we run the company together. So it's a dive into uncertainty because there's risk there, you know, and you never know what's going to happen.

But it's a fun thing. I mean, again, I think, you know, calculated risks are what we do. And again, like I said, my son and I are getting our Pallis license, so there's uncertainty there, especially when you're close to the air, you're in the landing pattern, you don't want to stall, right? But it's fun. So I think we have to stretch ourselves. One of the things that excites me about this is obviously this.

stuff I think will help people when uncertainty hits without warning. But the key thing is if you get really good at this stuff, you start finding yourself deliberately stepping into uncertainty. And that's where all the growth and evolution for us as human beings happen. That's where our potential is found. And that's one of the secrets that we come out of Seale teams with is we are comfortable exploring our potential. And we're good at doing this stuff. We know how to do it. So everybody has that opportunity. No doubt. Where can people find you? You got the Attributes.com. The Attributes.com. We got on social media, you're at Rich underscore Divini.

And then on Twitter, you're at Rich Devini and also Facebook at Rich Devine. And LinkedIn also at Rich Devine. Yeah, so, yeah, all those places. Website, you can find all the stuff we do. Obviously, the books are on Amazon. And yeah, they can stop by. Take the assessment, try that out, figure out where your attributes are. And if you need us, come get us.

Figure out where you rank in courage, Echo Charles. Remember, low-curvy. has advantages, by the way. T. E. E. A. Hey, it's going like that.

Echo. Any questions? Yeah. You said there's some visual tools to deal with anxiety. Yes. What would be an example of the visual? Let me give you one of the simple most most effective or one of the most, it's not the most effective, but quickest way is called open gaze.

Open gaze is literally the ability to soften your gaze. So if I were to ask you to stare at a point in the wall and then as you're staring that, just go soft with their gaze. So you begin to notice your periphery, that's, that's, you go soft with your periphery, that's open gaze. And what that's doing is that is bringing down your autonomical arousal, because when we get autonomically aroused, we focus in on the threat. Open gaze, that soft gaze brings, it's calm. It's why we sit on a beach and get calm, because we're looking at the horizon or, or landscape or whatever we want to do. So, but martial artists and fighters know this,

you know, and our reaction time actually increases when we're open gaze, if we're not totally focused in. So, so that's a real quick one. When I used to start getting on stage, I'd get on the stage and I just kind of look at the back wall and just go open gaze and feel myself calm down a little bit. So it's like the opposite of tunnel vision. Opposite of tunnel vision. Anti-tunnel vision scenario. Yeah.

Yeah. But you can manually do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like literally me right in the South, like look around. It's going to calm you down. You look around. You see the bigger picture as opposed to you hear machine gun fire. You just look at that thing like, what the hell am I supposed to?

That's tunnel vision. And it's bad. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. You ever see those computer generated art things that you got to look through or whatever? to visualize it. And it's only when you, well, it's only on most of those

when you soften your gaze that I think pops out, right? Yeah, yeah. When you're not focused on it, you gotta focus kind of. Yeah, so that's a, quick one. Yeah, yeah, kind of the same thing.

I don't know if I mentioned this last time, but the yawning before something's going, like before football games in the locker room might be yawning all the time. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not tired or nothing. I'm just yawning all the time. Yeah, in fact, I just remember,

it's the trigiminal nerve. I don't know. Anyway, yeah. I'll check the group on that one. It actuates a trigiminal nerve, which actually, it starts to force, it starts to force yourself to breathe in a certain way that starts to calm you.

So, yeah, if you're nervous and you start yawning, which I used to do before jumps, I'd be up to, if you'd be on the ride up, I'd be yawning. I was like, what the hell's going on, right? So, yeah, it's your body's way of getting more, getting more oxygen, breathing out that seal. And by the way, when you see your buddy

and you're on the skydive and you see him like, in the plane, he's yawning, you think, man, he's so relaxed and so chill. He's bored, he's freaking panicking. That's advantageous in the seal things, by the way. Yeah, yeah. They want to look super chill just, just, yeah. 30,000 foot with freaking combat equipment.

Yeah. Speaking of which, your pilots, like, when did you start pursuing your pilot? We literally just started about a month and a half ago. And how many hours do you have? I mean, we each have like five or six right now. So it's not. So my twin brother who's a Harrier pilot, right? He has like, and he's a FedEx pilot.

Now he has five thousand hours. I saw him this last week and I was like, okay, I got some shit for you because I got five hours just so You know, I can fly anything. Yeah, so we're at the beginning stages. He's on the grid, man. Yeah. I got zero hours so far. So you see him saying, a little bit different.

So when's the, as far as hours go, wins like the, what do you call it? Like a benchmark. Typically, typically, well, solo, you do a solo around 20, 15, 20. But then you get your license. Usually it takes people about 50 hours. But it really depends on how often you're flying. And then how quickly you pick it up. And so someone who's flying every single day could get their license in 40 hours.

And that's just private pilot VFR. That's visual flight rules. The idea is then you get IFR, which is instrument. And if you want to go further, you can get multi-engine and jet and all that stuff. But I just, it is, I love driving anything. Anything to drive, motorcycles, cars, boats, you know, forklifts, whatever. I've always wanted to drive an airplane or fly it. It's an ultimate driving because you're doing it across all the dimensions.

Yeah. Are you going to buy a plane? Yes, that's the goal. Do you have one identified yet? Well, okay. So should the company do you do? do what I wanted to do. I'd love to, my ultimate goal is to get one of those serious vision jets because those are pretty badass. Until then, you know, it may be a single

engine prop or something, but, but, but you know, planes. We get the serious vision jet and on the other end, the Cessna. The Cessna. So hey, everyone go to the Attributes.com and start to buy some books, please. Yeah. So we'll put a counter on that. Asteriscercer. assessments until vision jet, right? I think it's just, it's a very, my family grew up flying, my brother's flown. In fact, he's doing his own, you know, he was the, he was the, he was a Harrier pilot who, he was the one guy who survived his Harrier crash. He crashed his Harrier, inverted in the water, and ejected, inverted in the water, yeah, and survived. So he's actually, how the hell did he survive? Was he high enough up that he slowed down? He was under, no, he was

already underwater. The plane was inverted already, and he ejected into the water. Wait, so, no, the plane was in the water? Yeah, the plane crashed, inverted, and then he ejected. Yes, yeah, underwater. That didn't kill him? No, no. So, anyways, he's writing a book about it, right? What are the physics behind that?

They're not sure other than it just, there could have been enough water in the cockpit at that point where the, where the pressure wasn't too bad. And, and again, that, in the Harrier, you're blowing, the explosives are on the canopy. So it blows the, the canopy open. and then you go through the hole. So I don't, who knows, I mean, physics or spirituality, whatever that. That's wild. Yeah. So, um, did you see that crash like a month ago with the two people that ejected out of the,

I think it was two F-18s hit each other at an air show? And they both, one of them was inverted. And the people ejected, but it was high enough. They were high enough. And they were not high. Yeah. But they were high enough that when they ejected, the parachute came out and they lived. Yeah.

And it was two, two cedars. So there's four people ejected. They all lived. All, I mean, it was such a compact area. The two aircraft hit each other. Yeah. One of them inverted. One of them already was inverted, I think. But everyone ejected, and they were on the ground in like three seconds.

Yeah. It was nuts to watch. Well, the technology is amazing. And when it works, it works well. So, yeah. No ejection sheets in the Cessna 172. You have to fly that ship. But the series has a parachute on it, so you're good.

It also has one of those emergency buttons. So if the pilot gets incapacity, the passenger hits that button and it just finds itself. It flies itself to the nearest landing. They're cool jets. Everything about flying is cool to me. Check. Echo, any more questions? No, that was it.

Recently, I was nerding out on planes and pilots license and stuff, you know. For my computer. Do you have a flight simulator? Yes. Although I asked my instructor, what's the real value of that? He said it becomes the most valuable when you're doing your instrument flight writing. because everything about what I'm learning, really having been a fan but not doing it,

is it's so much about feeling the airplane and feeling the aircraft. Because just like driving a stick shift car, you get in there and you're your front side focused on the instruments and you're like here on the yoke and all that stuff. And then as soon as you start looking out, everything starts to be a little bit smoother. So yeah, flight simulators,

what I'm told, are pretty good for learning the instruments and early assistance. I would think for sure that would be good because that's all you can see. It's all you can see. So it's an actual simulation. And with a modern aircraft for these glass cockpacks,

these Garmin systems have so much. It's like an iPhone. There's so much they can do that if you don't, you can get task saturated just managing that. So yeah, I'll do that one together. I like simulator. Is that on the computer?

Yeah, yeah. Do you have any extra equipment? Like a joy station? You can. So that's another thing. You know, again,

you can add some, if you want to really spend some bucks, you can get your throttles, your yokes, your rudder pedals and all that stuff. That connect into your computer, the computer and, and you fly the plane that way.

I hear they're pretty good. Yes, they are. I hear they're pretty good. They are. So even what's the JSF, which is the, the simulator that has all the jets. My little brother has, he has a VR headset, so he gets really into it. My twin brother, we went, we went and visited my little brother, and he did the Harrier, and he said the way the Harrier was operating.

He was doing things in the simulator. They did in the real jet. He said it was phenomenally accurate in terms of just even little nuances. So they do a good job. I flew the Harrier simulator out at Yuma at Yuma when I was like probably 23 or something like that. And I crashed it. I was like a lot very rough. With no, I went in there with no.

No training. Yeah. Yeah. Just like, boom. Yeah. They're like, you suck. I'm like, well, okay, cool. Thanks.

I need some training here. Yeah. One of my, uh, I watch videos about playing crashes. Yeah. Like, uh, just what mistakes that people make. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's really interesting.

Mm. because the psychology of it. The psychology of these people that are learning how to fly. And some of them, you know, you're only seeing them because they had some kind of a, usually some kind of a psychological situation. Right. In my opinion, like, you know, the person that, oh, I'm just going to, you know, they're, they either think they're really good or they're overconfident.

Like, I, I explored that part of it. Yes. You know, the interviews with the people that were like, yeah, we told her, you know, it wouldn't be a good idea to fly today. And she said, no, I got this. You know, I've been, or, you know, they flew this plane that they'd never flown before. or hey, you might want to not fly in this kind of weather with this. You never flown that thing.

No, I did the simulator or whatever the case may be. So it's interesting. I enjoy, in fact, you bring that up. One of the reasons why I'm enjoying it, I know I'm going to enjoy it more is because I feel like it takes the same level of planning and risk assessment that even planning ops did. And I really, that was part I really enjoyed. I liked working through those processes and just understanding.

I think flying, if you're not doing the same thing with flying, you're probably going to make a 99.9% of aviation accidents are pilot error. That's where they are. So it's, yeah, it's good. It takes some risk assessment, risk management planning, and are you looking ahead? Are you actually DPOing your way in a proper, in a proper way? So 99.9% it's on you. Something like that.

Yeah. That's a lot of extreme ownership happening when you crash your bird. I saw one. I think it was like a C, which one's a big one? C-17, right? Not 130. C-17s are the big ones. I think it was one of those where it said, it was a,

And it said, arrogant pilot just crashes the C-17. That is a C-17. I'm not sure. I've seen that flight. It's in Germany, right? Where he ticks off low in banks? Stalls, yeah. Stalls, yeah.

There's a couple out there. But yeah, you just have to be careful. I mean, it's just, but I like it. That's the kind of thing. It's not like a car. I mean, cars you do have to do, but I mean, somebody Yahoo's drive cars, they just don't. But the planes, the planes nowadays, they want to fly.

I mean, these things are designed in a way that you got to work to crash them. I mean, you know, it's very rare that you have, you know, huge malfunctions in the equipment itself, at least. Or multiple malfunctions. When you'd figure I could just see this happening like pretty much every single time. At least part of your brain is like, yeah, this is like cool. Like I kind of got the hang of it, but let me kind of push it a little bit. You know, like let me try freaking. Yeah.

I don't know. I think so, except I think just given my background, I understand what that means. Yeah, yeah. And you don't push it. I think that makes sense when you're 24. That's right. That's true. Yeah.

Yeah, you don't test Murphy. Right. When you're 54, you're like, Yeah, it's a bad idea. How about straight and level right now? Let's see how smooth that. Right on. Echo, any other questions?

No, that's it. Good to see you again. Right on. Rich, any closing thoughts? No, man. Thanks so much for having me back. Thanks for all your support. It's great to see both of you.

And you're doing great work, which I appreciate you. I keep track of it. So, yeah. We're trying, man. Thanks once again for coming out. Thanks for joining us. And thanks for sharing your lessons on leadership. Appreciate it.

And of course, thanks your service to the teams and to the nation. You as well. Thanks, brother. All right. Good seeing you. You too. And with that, Rich DeVinny has left the building. Clearly, things are going to be uncertain.

When they get uncertain, there's some protocols we could take. But it's a good idea to be prepared mentally and physically. That means we're training. That means we're lifting. We're running. We're doing jiu-jitsu. We're shooting. We're just generally getting after it.

When we get after it, we need fuel, and we recommend jocco fuel. We have protein. We have energy. We have greens. We have hydration. We have supplementation. We've got everything that you know need to keep you on the path. Recovery, growth, strength.

We got you. Go to joccofuel.com or go to any store in your neighborhood. And you should see some jacofuel for you. That's what we got. Firing on all cylinders. It'll keep you there. I like that. Also, origin at USA.com.

This is where you can get American-made clothing. American-made boots. American-made jiu-jitsu gear. Hoodies. Gees. Whatever you need to wear. Hats. belts.

We got you. So check out origin at usa.com and get you some 100% communist-free clothing. No, Communism at all. Zero percent to communism. Yeah, yeah. It's a good percentage because because the stuff that it's made with is American made. The cotton is American grown and the buttons the buttons are American made 100% American made. That's what we're doing. So check it out origin USA.com get some. Yeah, it's true. Also don't forget about the Alco store just one equal freedom good somebody gets some get after it all these things you can represent while you're on the path. We got shirts on there hats on their hoodies on there shorts on there. I got a good review from the shorts, by the way. Fully functional hybrid shorts.

Jiu-Jitsu, swimming, workout, the whole deal. Also, shirt locker, don't forget about that. Different design every month. It's a subscription scenario. We already knew that, but I'm going to tell you again, subscription scenario, new design every month. People seem to like that one. The new design is, you know, the old school golds gym vibe?

That's all I'm going to say. Okay. So, you know what I'm saying. Anyway, go to jocco store.com. You click on the shirt locker. You can see what it's all about. It's pretty cool. Every, you can see what the new design kind of is on that page.

So it's pretty cool. Anyway, it's all at jocco store.com. Check out some books. Masters of Uncertainty by Rich Devini. Check out, put your legs on by Rob Jones. Check out Need to Lead by Dave Burke. And then you can check out a bunch of books that I've written. I referenced leadership strategy and tactics quite a few times today, written by me.

So you can check that one out. Also, check out Colorado Craft Beef. If you need some steak, check out Eschlam Front. If you need leadership in your life, in your world, check out Escalonfront.com. I think we still have some seats open at the muster in San Diego, July 8th through the 10th. So if you want to check that out, check that out. And then, of course, we have our online training academy,

Extreme Ownership.com teaching these skills. Leadership is a skill. And if you want to get better at it, You can do an online training with us. Eschelonfront.com or extreme ownership.com. And if you want to help service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families.

Check out Mark Lee's mom. He's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's Mighty Warriors.org. Also check out heroes and horses.org. And Jimmy May's organization beyond the brotherhood. Dot org. Finally, warriors in need.

org. and also stronghold rescue.org and single parent project project.org we're trying to help out some of these charities that are doing great stuff. If you want to connect with us for Rich Divini on the interwebs, go to theattributes.com

and he's on social media. Instagram, Rich underscore divini. And then on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, he's at Rich Devini. And for us, you check out jocco.com and then on social media, I'm at Jocco. I'm at Jocco.

Just be careful because the dopamine will grab your brain and twist it into little tiny things that you have no control over anymore. So just be careful. The dopamine machine, don't let it get you. Thanks to our military personnel around the world currently deployed protecting freedom. And thanks to all the veterans that have served in the past for protecting us as Americans throughout history. Also thanks to our police law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol secret service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home. And everyone else out there, it's an uncertain world that we live in.

Things change all the time. So set some good horizons. Understand your attributes. Know your identity. And live it. And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.