Jocko Podcast - 58: Overcoming Regrets of a Wasted Life, How to Maximize Morale, Aligning Goals Up the Chain

Episode Date: January 16, 2017

0:00:00 - Opening: "How to Tell a Mother Her Child is Dead", by Naomi Rosenberg 0:15:17 - John R.M. Byrnes Letter to his Daughter  0:49:49 - Overcoming regrets of wasted time/life. 0:57:51 - Maximizing Employee/Team morale after firing a popular supervisor.  1:03:59 - How to capitalize with a substandard supervisor. 1:12:57 - Step-by-step Learning VS Creative Learning, in Jiu Jitsu and Life. 1:31:53 - Goals Not Aligning up the Chain of Command. 1:37:48 - Jocko's Next book Very soon. 1:46:14 - Cool Support, Onnit, Jocko Store, Psych Warfare, Jocko Tea stuff. Extreme Ownership Muster 002.  Youtube.  1:57:41 - Closing Gratitude.  Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 58 with Echo Charles and me Jock Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Now, a couple shows ago, when Dr. Peter Attila was on, he mentioned an article. And I hesitate to call it an article because it is actually much more than just an article. It's an elegant piece that was published in the New York Times written by his friend and the daughter of one of his mentors. A woman named Naomi Rosenberg, Dr. Naomi Rosenberg, who is a doctor at Temple University. And Peter said that this article truly captured the emotions and the struggle and the methodiottial.

for delivering the worst news to a parent that their child had died and I of course read the article and I found it incredible and I wanted to share it with you in case

you didn't have a chance to read it yourself yet so here it is from the opinion section of the New York Times on September 3rd, 2016 by Dr. Naomi Rosenberg. How to tell a mother her child is dead. First, you get your coat. I don't care if you don't remember where you left it. You find it.

If there was a lot of blood, you asked someone to go quickly to the basement to get you a new set of scrubs. you put on your coat and you go into the bathroom. You look into the mirror and you say it. You use the mother's name and you use her child's name. You may not adjust this part in any way. I will show you. If it were my mother, you would say,

Mrs. Rosenberg, I have terrible, terrible news. Naomi died today. You say it out loud. until you can say it clearly and loudly. How loudly? Loud enough. If it takes you fewer than five tries, you are rushing it,

and you will not do it right. You take your time. After the bathroom, you do nothing before you go to her. You don't make a phone call. You do not talk to the medical student. You do not put in an order. You never make her wait.

She is his mother. when you get inside the room you will know who the mother is yes i am very sure shake her hand and tell her who you are if there is time you shake everyone's hand yes you will know if there is time you never stand if there are no seats left the couches have arms on them you will have a decision to make about whether you will ask her what she already knows. If you were the one to call her and tell her that her son had been shot, then you already have done part of it. But you have not done it yet.

You are about to do it now. You never make her wait. She is his mother. Now you explode the world. Yes, you have to. You say something like Mrs. Booker. I have terrible, terrible news. Ernest died today.

Then you wait. You will not stand up. You may leave yourself in the heaviness of your breath or the racing of your pulse or the sight of your shoelaces on your shoe, but you will not stand up. You are here for her. She is his mother. If the mother has another son with her and he has punched the way, wall or broken the chair, do not be worried. The one that punched the wall or broke the chair will be better than the one who looks down

and refuses to cry. The one who punched the wall or broke the chair will be much easier than the sister who looks up and closes her eyes as they fill. Security is already outside the room. And when they hear the first loud noise, they will notice. come in. No, you will not have to tell them. They know about the family room in the emergency department in summer in North Philadelphia. It is all right. They will be kind. If the chair cannot be sat in again, that is all right. We have money for new chairs every summer.

If he does not break your chair, you stay in your chair. If he does, you find a new place to sit. You are here for the mother and you have more to do. If she asks you, you will tell her what you know. You do not lie. But do not say he was murdered or he was killed. Yes, I know that he was, but that is not what you say. You say that he died.

That is the part that you saw and that you know. when she asks if he felt any pain you must be very careful if he did not you assure her quickly if he did you do not lie but his pain is over now do not ever say he was lucky that he did not feel pain he was not lucky she is not lucky don't make that face The depth of the stupidity of the things you will say sometimes is unimaginable. Before you leave, you break her heart one more time. No, I'm sorry, but you cannot see him. There are strict rules when a person dies this way and the police have to take him first.

We cannot let you in. I'm so sorry. You do not ever say the body. It is not a body. It is her son. You want to tell her that you know that he was hers. But she knows that. And she does not need for you to tell her.

Instead, tell her you will give her time and come back in case she has questions. More questions or questions for the first time. If she has no questions, you do not give her the answers to the questions she has not asked. when you leave the room do not yell at the medical student who has a question when you get home do not yell at your husband

if he left his socks on the floor again today it is all right and that includes the article and it concludes the instructions from Dr. Rosenberg and I know we're all not doctors

and even in my old job even when men were killed my men were killed i did not ever have to deliver this news myself when my men were killed i was still overseas still still fighting and the military has a process a procedure to notify the next of kin when a service member is killed and that's well documented but I never had to do this but even though we're not doctors and I guess most of us are blessed in the fact that we don't have to deliver this news but I still think there's much to be learned first of all to get some sense of what doctors and nurses and medical personnel go through on a daily basis and the methodology that's used really you can back that off a little bit and think about how you can use it in situations to

deliver other bad news rehearse what you're going to say say it in the mirror out loud be direct simply and clearly state the facts so there's no ambiguity and so there's no question about what it is that you said and then wait you don't need to say anymore you already said it don't distract from the words don't take away from the statement by adding to it you said it you said it leave it alone you don't need to fill the silence with words words are good but sometimes silence is better then that includes the part that dr rosenberg pointed out about the way that we tend to answer questions that weren't even asked no the other thing that she obviously has had to contend with is the emotions from other people don't let them surprise you expect it if someone wants to

get angry that's okay if someone breaks down that's okay know that it is coming don't let it surprise you don't let it catch you off guard and she talks about body language as well right she says don't make that face so we have to be aware of our body language our body language is a language and it communicates to people so make sure that the message you are communicating with your body language is the right message and then lastly she talks about detachment and the fact that even though you've gone through this horrendous horrific emotional situation, leave it in the room. Don't take out the anger and the frustration and the emotions that you do feel. Don't take them out on the intern or the medical student or your spouse or your children because whatever you're pretending to be mad about doesn't matter. And what does matter is life. So live it and live it well. And reading And thinking about what Dr. Rosenberg wrote, it made me think of a letter that I had read some time ago that is sort of the reciprocal of this.

Instead of being a child that's lost, this is about a parent that's lost. Now when Parents grow old and we reach old age Part of life is death But there are events in the world That bring early deaths And I remembered a letter that I had read Which was written by John Rowland

McGinley Burns Who held the rank of trooper In the 2-7 cavalry Commando Regiment in the Australian army. And he wrote this letter about 10 months into the brutal campaign in New Guinea where the allies

met the determined Japanese imperial troops who, as we all know, fought ruthlessly and fought to the death. And not only were the allies fighting against the Japanese soldiers, they also fought against the diseases of the jungle

with nearly 100% of the men suffering malaria typhus it was a nightmare a bloody fever-stricken miserable nightmare but in that nightmare facing death in that darkness

John Burns found the good He found the light. And here is what he had to say in a letter written to his little daughter for her second birthday. Wednesday, October 21st, 1942. My dear little girl, last night was a beautiful moonlit night. Every star that studded the sky was sparkling. Like a jewel.

The air was crisp, but faintly perfumed with all the fragrances, only a lovely spring night can devise. Today, it is raining hard. The wind is fierce and cold. Yes, it is miserable, something you want to pass by quickly, so that the night will again be beautiful. Life too, Anne, is like the weather. Some days are so lovely, the happenings of those days so enchanting, you can never forget them.

Some are so unhappy. You wish they never happened, but alas, they must for your life. Your mother's, mine, everyone's is so mixed up with joy and sadness that you never have one or the other for long. One replaces the other with a speed that is amazing. Thus it just happened two years ago. Your mother knew and I knew that you were going to be born. Those days weren't anxious ones, Anne. As the days went by, your mother used to smile at me with those lovely brown eyes,

eyes that shone with courage and resolve. If she had anxiety in her mind, she never showed it. But it must have been there. In my heart and mind, torments rage that no one will ever know. But through all the doubts, all the worries, and all the long, anxious hours,

an end came. Bringing with it, you. From that hour, it was early in the morning, the lives of two people were filled with inexplicable happiness. When I called to see your mother that day, I shall never forget the beauty, the happiness that shone up at me from her precious little face.

Neither will I forget the pride and the joy that surged right through me when the nurse brought you along and I held you in my arms. Soon we took you home. The month sped by and gradually took a hold in our hearts. You laughed so much at silly things. we did declaim your attention. You showed off to so many people. Your eyes so big and questioning never failed to win admiration.

Your curly hair was indeed a special joy. And as each month sped by, you grew. First you sat up, then stood up, then crawled, then walked. As each stage passed, funny little incidents occurred. Perhaps no one ever noticed them or remembered them, but your mother and I did. Every night when I came home from work, there were stories of your conduct through the day to be told. Some days you were good and others you were naughty.

Like for instance, the day when a little mischievous spirit seized you and strips of wallpaper came from the wall. the thoughts came crowding into my mind, memories of days gone by when we laughed that you scolded you and some serious times when we worried over you. The first year of your life passed quickly. Quickly perhaps, but you grew so quickly every day was an adventure, not only for yourself but for us. You had a party for your first birthday.

And although you sat up like Jackie, you probably will never remember. remember it. But that day you got Guga for a present. Poor Guga. As each week passed, he got dirtier and more worn. And the dirtier he got, the more you loved him. Then at Christmas, Teddy came along. Dear old Teddy, so plump and with a frizzy coat. In a few months, he was still plump, but his hair was not so frizzy. Then you'd go to sleep. Then you'd never go to sleep unless Teddy and Guga were tucked in with you. You'll never know how angelic, how like a cherub you looked,

when after your bath you were popped into bed with your little playmates. Indeed, God is good. How many times have your mother and I crept in to see you sleeping? And how many times have I wiped away tears, gentle little tears of happiness from her eyes when we came out. All those days were so beautiful, like the night I sat and watched yesterday evening. But soon came the rain. Your lovely country so free and proud was fighting for its life.

Those indeed were dark days. I had to leave your mother and you and become a soldier. Thousands of other daddies went too Because we had to fight So that all the mothers and little boys and girls Could live happily That was many months ago I do not know how long it will be

Before we will be home again But rain my little darling does not last forever Through the blackest clouds A little piece of blue appears The wind blows and soon the clouds go, so too will peace come. And then we can all be happy again. Because I'm a soldier now, Anne, I cannot attend your birthday this year.

You are going to have a party, and I won't be there. But while the party is on, I'll be thinking of you and your mother. Thinking of the day you came along and of the days that have gone by since. you are lovely now like your mother someday when you grow up some man is going to be lost in your loveliness like i was when i fell in love with your mother but no matter we cannot have you forever while we do we'll teach you all the lovely things in life and there are so many beautiful things in life. There are two bad things, and these also we will tell you about so that you'll know how to pass them by. Maybe it will be years before you will be able to read this letter, but when you

can, you'll know at least how much we love you and how much you mean to us. I am looking forward to seeing you soon, and to seeing those big brown eyes of yours laugh back at me. Until then, little girl goodbye and God bless you on your birthday from your adoring da da da da da da da soldier father John Burns died in New Guinea on the 9th of February 1943 few months after that letter was written when I say that war that war brings out the worst in people but that it also brings out the best in people. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Of course. It was absolutely the love of his daughter. But was that expression in so pure of a form because of the evil that he faced? The peril that he faced, the horror that he faced. War brings out the worst in people, but also brings out the best in people. And I'm sorry for that.

Want it to be that way. So I would ask you and I ask myself free our minds and we access that purity access that purity without the horror the imminent fear of death without evil access and can we recognize that purity without war not know the answer I hope that by looking at the horror by looking at the hatred and the savagery and the utter lack of humanity that war unleashes. I hope that that allows us the love, love that John Burns was able to find and express to his young daughter as he marched forward into the wretched jungle toward evil, toward war. Let us hope.

Let us remember. Let us learn. Let us learn about the darkness. Our mind can see with the greatest of contrast so that we can adoration and the pure love and beautiful and real living angels because they are here. Kind of a rough way to open things up, I know.

And that's one letter from one time period in the world. I have no idea We can't even comprehend how many millions of those letters were written. I would say If you're not Facing death and you're not facing horror Write that letter. Echo Charles Yeah, I For those of you to listening

I kind of Gave echo a heads up that this was gonna be kind of harsh I remember when I read that I don't know when I read that letter for the first time And but I remember just reading it thinking Wow And so I did and the other thing is Echo with his young daughter and you see you see he's told me this before

About like a When atrocity are taking place and he's all okay, you know Soldiers are getting killed and he's like doesn't get that emotional about it. But anytime I start talking about kids, getting hurt, Echo always has a hard time with it. So, you know, he's got a beautiful young daughter and a son.

What do you call a son? What do you call him handsome? He's too small to be handsome. You can't call him beautiful because he's a boy. He's very handsome. Okay, we call him handsome. I think he's very handsome. So that, like I said, I gave Echo the heads up.

I said it was going to be harsh. And obviously it was It was pretty harsh Yeah, I think You can't help but I mean, all of this stuff Like you just put yourself in the situation You know?

Yeah Yeah, I told you about the time I was watching Hawaii 5-0 The new one Not the old one The new and it just happens to be one of my It's in Hawaii and all this stuff So it's a good show

I think it's a good show But it's not like heavier deep it's you know it's a fun action show isn't it like bay watch kind of well maybe but nonetheless it's um you know it's a

Hawaii 5O crime yeah they got to solve the crime so one of them um it was pretty recent like a few weeks ago whatever um there's a prom and one of the five old guy's son is at the prom

terrorists take over the prom to do something right so now the little conundrum is task units guy's son is in the prom but they got to go solve the crime too you know but the sun's in there so it adds this little thing and then it was one of those things we're kind of like on the movie die hard where the when the terrorism thing got sprung on him the sun was in like the bathroom or something right so he has to kind of work along with another guy was there from five o to chaperone they were in the bathroom so they had to go behind the scene so it was like anyway at the end of the day the sun's kind of like the hero you know and then yeah he like comes you can't let him you can't you can't let a 105 break you down like this brother

I know man I'm not laughing at you I'm laughing with you it's not why in five oh it's not why five minutes it's I know I know man this is harsh this is harsh it's harsh it's brutal And, you know, just so, you know, kind of the pre-recording conversation that we had is, what I was saying to you is, hey, man, I'm going to, like, a lot of times on the podcast, I kind of have time to prepare for it. So I can answer the questions because I can think about them and all this. And I said, I'm going to ask a question. I don't have the answer to, right? And I'm sure we'll get a lot of feedback on this as far as, you know, Does this intense, you know, war scenario make you express yourself more fully?

And basically I asked Echo before we started recording, you know, we were having that conversation. And I said, if you were going to come here, if I was going to kill you right now, what would you say to your daughter? What would you? If I gave you the phone and said, you can talk to one more time, what would you, have you said that? that to her today. Have you said it to her this week? And I don't know. I don't know if we do that. I don't think we do. I don't think we normally do because I mean, you're not going to go through life like that. Then I'm not saying you need to do it every day. But how do you open up to that purity that you get when your life is at risk and you're in the jungles of New Guinea

and people are dying all around you and you know it's your daughter's birthday coming up and you want to write her a letter and you know it might be the last thing she ever sees from you. There's some, I believe that there's some force that moves through you and moves your hand and moves your mind

and moves your heart. Which if you think about it, why, like there's a lot of subjects to have books about it. to have movies about why are there so many war movies or what's that all about there's war movies you know there's war movies you know there's war movies there's no there's no other is there another subject that there's as many movies about than war right there's not is there is there there's a lot for sure i mean i guess you could say in general in a broad category could be like romance but even romance movies there's you know i mean those are marginal at best yeah i don't think

you'd know anything about the quantity of romance movies anyway. So really no, no guessing. But we know that there's, to say the least, there's a lot of war movies. I guess there's a lot of cops and robbers movies,

but guess what? That's the same, that's the same thing. Yeah, you know, they don't make cops and robber movies about giving out tickets. Yes.

For parking. Correct. They do cop and robber movies about cops and robbers killing each other and being bad guys and all that. At risk and the family. Yes, and the family and all that.

And even, Okay, here's another big genre of movies. Mobster movies, right? Mobster, there's a lot of mobster movies. Well, it's not, it's not, it's always about the life and death scenarios. That's what it's about. So I believe there is something to that. I don't know what it is, but there's something that opens up your mind.

And again, I think that's why it's important to look at these things and feel these things as much as you can feel so that you can have some more access in your brain to get to that part of your mind and your heart to express what's in there that isn't going to come out unless it's put under that kind of pressure. Yeah. Either that or maybe Hawaii 5-0 does it to you.

You never know, man. One time when my wife was pregnant with our first kid and, you know, the hormones get all crazy, Sure, progesterone. Yeah, and so we're watching something on TV back in the day, and an AT&T commercial came on. Yeah. And it was, you know, the dad was not home or something like that.

And all of a sudden, I hear like sniffling, and I look over. It was a 30 second commercial. You know, 14 seconds into it, she's bawling. Yeah, yeah. What is wrong with you? It's just so sad. Yeah, man. Okay.

You never know, man. You come out of nowhere. Like Armageddon. I don't know if you've ever seen that one. Just FYI, I haven't seen any cheesy, stupid movies with things blowing up everywhere. Bruce Willis. Those aren't the emotional muse that I'm looking for. Yeah, well, at the end, Bruce Willis, same deal.

But how's this, though? He's talking to her through a camera. And, you know, it's the same deal as this letter, though. He's saying not that long and in depth. It's not as deep, of course. But still same scenario because he he has to detonate the bomb, but the remote detonator broke. So he has to do it manually and blow himself up to save the world. Meanwhile, you've got to tell his daughter.

Anyway, same deal, man. You know, this is the other thing that I find interesting about this thought, right, about this thought of accessing this place, this kind of emotional place that people get into. And I think sometimes what happens is guys get in there and they can't get back out or or just and I like that's almost a description of Combat trauma or when somebody comes back. Oh, they're so emotional. Yeah, it's because they're in that spot and they can't get out. Oh, yeah. They can't put it back in check. They can't get control of it again. And so I think that might be another thing for for people that are visualizing this. I And visualizing, what I'm saying, you want to get to that place, but you also want to be able to get back out of it. Yeah. You know, you don't want to get wrapped around and live in this super hyper emotional world.

And it's not even emotional. It's a purity. It's a purity of thought and crystalline love. And if you get stuck in there, all of a sudden you can't function normally. Yeah. And so you got to it's good to dip into it. It's good to see it. It's good to feel it.

But then you got to be able to get back out of it. And if you get stuck in there, you know, that's what happens when guys come home from multiple combat deployments. They're just in there. And it comes and goes and they, it's like it's damaged or it's not damaged, but it's just an open access.

It's an open wound. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you got to learn to kind of get that under control as well. because that's where I think that's where I think problems come in if you spend all your time in that in that area you're not you're you're you're off balance yeah you got to you got to somehow balance it so um and this is the funny thing just because we're we're here right I'm gonna talk about it this like what what you're going through right now like kind of a mood swing scenario what I was going through what you were going through what's what we're going through what's what we're I remember like when Alton Lee Grizzard died, right? He was the guy was my platoon. And I talked about it when we were on the Tim Ferriss podcast. When Tim Ferriss came on our podcast.

Yeah. And I talked about Gris was his nickname. He was killed in a murder suicide. It was horrible. But that was the first time like we'd be with my teammates. And we'd be all like super emotional and sad. And then we'd be laughing 30 seconds later. Yeah.

And then crying again another 13. 30 seconds later and then laughing a minute later and and we'd be laughing at each other for crying. Yeah. And then and then crying because we're laughing. It's just, it's normal. I believe it's normal because I saw that with every, you know, every death that I've experienced in the SEAL teams. You know, guys, it's not like you have to be sad now and you have to be sad for 14 days or nine days. There's no, no, it's not like that.

You know how long you have to be sad for until you feel just, just like John, Byrne talk about it is thing. The sadness and the happiness comes so quickly. And that's what happens when you go through rough patches or when bad things happen. Those emotions will come and it's, and I just want people to know it's normal. It's normal to be crying one minute and then laughing 30 seconds later. And that's normal and it's okay because I've seen it with every death of experience. And I mean, I know the SEAL teams is kind of, you know, we're a little different.

but I saw it with the families. I saw it with, you know, people that weren't in the SEAL teams with us. I saw the same reactions. Yeah. So it's normal. And that's even you of 10 minutes ago, you were like crying and you heard me laughing.

You started laughing. You started laughing. And then as soon as you kind of got a laughter out, and then all of a sudden you went right back. You were vacillating back between the two. And that's like I said, it's normal. It's okay.

It's what happens when you start getting, getting emotional about stuff. Yeah, thankfully, my situation's more thinking about it, you know. It's like, I'm thinking about something bad that could, you know, it's not like, but it would be the same way. Yeah. You know, if something terrible did happen, you're going to feel the same way. And it's, you know, everyone should be just expecting that.

Yeah. And it's probably the way that we deal with it emotionally. Yeah. Man, one time, my daughter had like, like, lose like, she was, she was two, I think, almost two. she got a staff, Mercer, staff infection in her lymph node.

Oh, God. So it's like, and so, you know, we were there in the hospital for like a week, maybe two.

And there was, yeah, same deal, man, where it's like, because she, she's cool with it. You know,

it doesn't really hurt or nothing. It's just this thing. And then you're like, man, it's just this weird roller coaster. Like how you're saying.

It's crazy. Hey, that's part of the game, I guess. So, uh, let's go to some Q&A from the interwebs.

Sure. Question number one. Talk about something a little bit more positive. Let's talk about some more positive. Yeah. And this question is actually very positive. I like this question. All right.

So let's rock and roll. Here it is. From the interwebs. I am not Shakespeare. So I cannot come up with a Facebook message that will express how powerful of an impact you and Echo have had on my life. My father died when I was 10. And I spent the next 12 years wasting my physical and mental gifts.

You've taught me many of the last. that I like to believe my father would have taught me if he were alive. Here's a brief list of my achievements over the past two years that you deserve at least partial credit to. Here we go. Lost 90 pounds. Net weight 300 from 300 pounds down to 210. That's legit.

Yeah. That's a big difference. Yeah. People weigh 90 pounds, by the way. Yeah. That's a whole person. Yeah. Deadlift max went from 225 to 4.

55. Legit. Bench went from 185 to 315. Extra legit. Started training Jiu-Jitsu. Boom.

Yeah. And boxing with friends even though there's nowhere to train where I currently live except for the yoga room at LA Fitness. You can make it happen in the yoga room in LA Fitness. Let's get it on in the yoga room in LA Fitness.

That's what I'm talking about. Like on, like on Lionheart, I think they did it and they fought. Anyway. The whole other thing. Anyway, spent two years working at an awful job where I led from the middle

and improved the output of the entire facility while adding to my own skill set to the point where I was able to get a job, get a job I love. That's awesome. That's awesome to be bragging about the fact that you had an awful job that you just got after it in.

And look what happened. Guess what the results are? You get the job that you want. The job you love, yeah. Started at the new job. last Wednesday. So that just happened. Boom.

Legit. And see, he started taking class for the next job I want on a Coursera. Must be some kind of an internet thing. I'm halfway through the data science certification program. Yeah. Data science. I'm currently 26 and I fully intend to get after it until the day I die. I've passed your lessons on to my younger brother who has lost 50 pounds and swings a kettlebell.

I got him every day. Yeah. Dang. When I lack the motivation to do what needs to be done, your words ring loud in my ears. Discipline equals freedom. Thank you so much. Okay. So the question is, you may not have.

And the reason I included this preamble of kind of what he's been, you're going to hear. But as I thought about how to answer this question, it's good to know what the background is and what successes he's at. That's why we kind of threw that in there. Yeah. And it's awesome. It's awesome to hear about a trooper just getting after it. You know, dang numbers too. That's the thing.

That's the good thing about like, you know, some of you, you can say, hey, I'm getting after it nowadays. Good. Good. But now I'm deadlifting four. Yeah, this guy's like, I'm getting after it. Here's how. Here's how my results.

Awesome. Anyway. Okay. Joccoe, you may not have this issue. How do you avoid feeling discouraged when you realize how much of your life you wasted when you're not getting after it? Do you ever worry that you won't, achieve your full potential because you wasted time. Well, first of all, like I said, first and foremost, congratulations.

Second. That's just legit. And to have made that much progress, you're obviously on the path and getting after it and what you've accomplished is awesome. Some people never make that transition. So stay on it, keep crushing it. Now, as far as discouragement goes from not having gotten on the path earlier, do I feel that way? Would I feel that way? Negative.

Don't know. Okay, you were a little late getting in the game. But I'll tell you what, 26 years old, is that what we're talking about? 26. Yeah, at 26 years old, you're young and you're young. But I'll tell you what, even if you were 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 doesn't matter, you're in the game now and that's what counts. And all those quote unquote wasted years, they weren't wasted. right they're not wasted because you learned and specifically what did he learn about learned about

what it's like to be out of shape learned about what it's like to be overweight learned about what it's like to be weak and the knowledge that you learned about those things is fuel to make sure that it never happens again because you know you know what is out there and you know I how bad it can get. And this is the other reason why it's beneficial that you have a pass that wasn't perfect is now you can teach other people how to do it. Very clearly.

You can inspire other people to do it. Look at what you did to do your brother. Right? It's another good example. So back in the day before anybody knew what Jiu-Jitsu was, back in the day. I am the worst person to introduce Jiu-Jitsu to people. Because when they see me, because I'm 225 pounds,

and I'm, you know, a big guy, and they think, of course, this guy can choke me. Of course, you know, they don't expect anything else. So when I choke them, they're like, well, yeah, you were really strong. Yeah, yeah. So the best people to introduce Jiu-Jitsu to people is like Jeff Glover, right? Who's 150 pounds, skinny guy, and he comes out and chokes you big strong guy.

27 times in a row, they say, oh, maybe this stuff works. Yeah. Well, it's the same thing here. People look at me, they go, well, jock, you know, Jack, who's just hardcore. No, not just me. Look at you. You're the one that did it.

You went through a much bigger transition than I've ever gone through in my life. Yeah. So I say you embrace what you learned from the weekdays. Let them, let them make you even stronger. And you use your own personal transformation that you've made in life. Use that to help other people transform and get on the path as well. That's where I'm at.

So good. And there's a lot to be said too for that. Like how he was talking is what I think, you know, is how his brother lost 50 pounds. Right. And that's like a lot, like a lot of times I feel like when people, do good stuff for themselves and make these big changes other people who see there's kind of there's two people I'm sure there's one too but there's two

kind of people where some will be like eh they'll just hate and they'll be just jealous and they'll you know whatever but the legit people like in your life are around you are going to be like hey what did you do you know even if like even if it's not losing it even if it's like you're making like millions of dollars now they're like what are you doing you know you just sort of change real quick like you're now you're making millions of what you do I want to do I want to get on that stuff whatever you're doing And the workout thing, that's a big one.

So if, like, a lot of times, like, girls, they'll lose all this weight, and now they're, like, super attractive. They're, you know, as attractive as they always wanted to be kind of thing. All the other girls, what did you do? Oh my gosh, what did you do? What did you do? And they want to do it, too.

It's like, it's almost like, almost like you can prove it to others that it can be done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's good. Yeah. Stay on the path, man. That's awesome. Awesome stuff. Next.

Jocko How do you handle an employee Or how do you handle employee morale After terminating a popular supervisor For cause Okay so I mean it's kind of a rough one But it's not it's not something that doesn't happen

It doesn't happen all the time Because a lot of times people that are popular They do well But sometimes people are popular for the wrong reasons They're popular because they let people cut corners They're popular because they slack what What is this for cause Just to

Meaning they weren't efficient in their job. It's, you failed. Okay. Basically, you're not up to his par. Oh, gotcha. And so people, sometimes popular supervisors, yeah, like I said, sometimes they're popular because they do great and they're great leaders, but a lot of times they're popular because they let people get away with murder.

Yeah. And so when you figure that out that the person's not doing their job and not a good leader, then you've got to fire them. I mean, you've tried to counsel them, all that stuff. But now you've got to fire them. So how are you going to get through that? Well, for one thing, the number one thing you've got to do is explain why to the people, to the troops. You've got to explain why this person is being removed.

And just, you know, just like we just kind of learned from the opening piece about being direct and not avoiding the conversation, have the conversation, be straightforward. And now, now this is a key piece. Don't be disparaging of the person that's getting fired, right? That guy was a dirt bag on, you know, because these people are, you know, that some of them have a relationship with them. And so you don't want to just immediately create animosity, but you do have to be straightforward. You do have to say, look, we had standards here. He was out of bounds on these things right here and we just can't do that in this company. We got to hold the line.

You know, there's ethical reasons. There's legal reasons or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be. So that's that. The other thing is you got to inspire some conversation. You got to inspire some questions so that they can, because you're trying to close the gap with the relationship, right? You fired somebody and now there's a gap, a relationship gap. Because that person that you fired is the relationship between,

they connect the relationship between his subordinates and you. So now there's a gap in the relationship. So you've got to fill that gap. So you've got to start getting the conversations going, talking to them, and getting them, just like I said, closing the gap in the relationship. The other thing is,

you got to explain what the follow-on plan is very clearly. And you've got to introduce whoever's taking their place. You got to introduce them. I mean, immediately they got to be ready to rock and roll.

They got to be read in. You have to counsel them on like, hey, you know why I'm putting you in here? Be a leader, yes. Run this job site, yes. I need you to build these relationships with these guys. You're now taking over a relationship.

You're taking over a boss, yes, but you're taking over the relationships that he had. Now, here's what you got to do to do it. You got to go and you've got to be humble. You got to ask questions. All the standard leadership stuff.

But you got to get them focused in the right area. You also got to make sure who's ever coming in to take their place. Make sure that they understand what the political terrain is. Which guys were boys with the guy you fired, which guys didn't like him anyway. So you've got to explain all that to him. So do you understand what's going on? And the last thing I'll say on this is you'll find that oftentimes, somebody that you think is mission critical,

they're actually not mission critical. They're not as mission critical as they think they are. And they're not as mission critical as you think they are. And others, when someone is doing a bad job or someone is not a good leader, the other people, even though they might be buddy, buddy with them, they know it. And they know they should be removed. And when you do it, a lot of times the respect level goes.

up so that means the other people that are in that position will or the support it's a lot of them are ready to step up to they're they're ready they was going God it took you forever to fire this guy I mean we were doing what we got to do and he was popular and everything he's nice but we we see where it's coming from so have confidence when you do it you know be be be thoughtful but when you make the decision and you know it's the right thing to do do it get that other leader ready to rock and roll explain every very clearly explain why you're doing it and build and fill that gap in relationships that

now it's going to exist when you say mission critical what does that mean meaning without this guy oh right the mission the mission's gonna fail yeah if echo wasn't here for the podcast we wouldn't be able to do it yeah so like I know actually we would no I'm I'm I'm extra another guy no I'd be like hey can you press record on this machine over here and someone would say yeah and I'd say cool and they'd And I'd say, do it? And I'd say, well, do you know how to make YouTube videos? Because that would be an addition.

Since Echo doesn't do much of that, maybe you could help with that. Yeah. No, mission critical just means a guy that, and this happens. You see the technology companies where you've got some guy that's really in the code more than anybody else. And so, if I leave, no one's going to understand what I built. Well, first of all, you did a bad job if no one's going to understand what you built. But, and it even happens.

I've seen it with construction. If you're building something more complex. Like all of a sudden you got one guy that really understands the details and It can be hard because everyone thinks how if we lose him he's the only guy that knows how to do XYZ so people freak out about it Yeah, it almost seems like that's more of a comfort zone thing if people think that you know it's a definite comfort zone thing you know what I actually I can say I don't think I've ever I'm trying to think I don't think I've seen it yet where the mission critical guy got fired and things fell apart Yeah

I don't think I'm trying to think if I've seen it. I don't think I've seen it. I don't think I've seen it. Yeah. No, I haven't seen it. Maybe someone will happen one day. Maybe. All right.

Next question. Next question. Jocco. I started working for a new company about four months ago. Although new to this particular field, my previous experience and skill set directly applies to the work I do now. I'm assigned to work with an experience, quote, unquote, mentor who has me do busy work. or tasks that are well beneath my capabilities,

leaving me feeling underutilized. Furthermore, when I see the quality of work this person executes, I'm confident I could outperform him. And yet he treats me like an idiot or a noob, quote him, a newbie. He also milks the clock disappearing for long stretches at a time and spending a lot of time on his phone. To further complicate matters,

he's well connected to our upper management. What is the best course of action if my goal is to get noticed as someone who can perform the quality work that our clients demand? Okay. Fairly normal situation, right? This happens in every industry. What's the best course of action if my goal is to get noticed as someone who can perform the quality of work that our clients demand? Best course of action? Perform the quality work that the client's demand.

That's the best course of action. That's it. work hard over deliver get after it that's the number one thing you can do now that you got an opportunity here the your your mentor disappears for long stretches good let him go take a long lunch boss I got it oh you want to sign me these menial tasks well eventually he if he's going to take all these breaks then he's going to have you do the more meaningful work so that's fine Um, you, you can do better work than him. Good.

That's going to be fine. That's going to show through eventually. He's well connected up the chain of command. Beautiful. Beautiful. Because if you can now build a relationship with him, you're going to be well connected too. And that's going to be the hardest part, right?

The hard. That's going to be, it's going to be hard to do. And it's especially hard to do because your attitude right now is negative, right? Your attitude right now is negative. It's a little ego. kicking in, I can do better than him. He's, I'm underutilized. He's, he does things,

or he's making me do things beneath my capabilities. Those are all just ego. It's fine. Ego's good. Ego's got a lot of positives to it. What's driving you to want to do better. So it's okay. But you're going to have to overcome that in this scenario,

in order to build a relationship with this guy. Man, I built relationships with guys that I hated. You know, I mean, because guess what? Does that make me two-faced? No, you know what? It's my job. I'm a professional. Yeah.

I am a professional. I guarantee you. You come and work with me. You will see. I am a professional. And yet I will build relationships. So not yet, but so that means my job and my professionalism is more important than my ego and my, and my, uh, my criticality of other people.

Right? I'm not looking down on him going on. So, because what I want to do is build a good relationship. So when we build that good relationship with him, now he's, if he's well connected with the folks up top, they're like, oh, what's up with Billy? Oh, Billy's good to go, man. He's doing a great job. Now what if you're like with a thing that the other, so what you got to be careful of? What you don't want to do is create an antagonistic relationship with him.

And that includes threatening him with your work ethic, threatening him with your performance. level, threatening him with your skills. So you almost have to throttle back just a little bit enough that he's not threatened. Now the other thing you could do instead of throttling back is what you do is you give him the credit. The credit. And you give him the credit, you're good. And now he's like pumped.

He's not looking at you become, you build the relationship. That's what we want to do. We want to build a relationship. And we want to put your ego in check. Do the little menial tasks. learn as much as you can and let me tell you all this is temporary

you will rise the top if you do it right you will rise the top if you screw it up you will never rise if you create an antagonistic relationship with him you will not promote you will not if you do it right you will end up above him in the chain of command

it will take time it will take swallowing of pride but it will happen It might take five years. It might take seven years. It might take nine months. I don't know. But that's what you have to do to make it happen and have fun doing it.

If you're going to go crazy every day, if it hurts you so bad, I make a game out of it. I mean, I'm going to make a total game out of it where my goal is to build this relationship with this guy. I'm going to make a game out of it. We're going to have fun with it. I'm not going to be angry when I come home from work and go, God, I can't believe I had to shake his hand. No. I'm going to come back. You know what?

Hey, talk to my wife was a, hey, guess what? He actually bought me lunch today. And we were laughing about the football game. I don't even like football. You know what I mean? I'm going to build that. And I'm going to win. And in the long run, you're guaranteed to win if you can play that game.

So, again, everyone thinks it's going to be like, he does not meet, because I was in the military. You just not meet the standards. What you do is you smash him and report him up the chain of command. Oh, good luck with that. This guy has well connected and has relationships with their. They're going to go, hey, let's shut up, new guy. Yeah.

Because you're actually proving, not only, you're actually proving when you do this, you're actually proving that you're not a good leader and that you can't put your ego in check. Yeah. You're proving that you can't work with some people. We that guy. No, Jocko, he, oh, Ed. Jocko can't work with anybody. Jock was really good as long as you're working with, you know, his team.

So what does that mean? Yeah, it means you're confined for the rest of your life of only working with your team. Yeah. Whereas if it's, hey, Jocco's good to go, he can work with anybody. Oh, he worked with Bill who's an egomaniac, and he worked with Mike, who's a lazy bastard. Guess what? Doesn't matter where you put Jocko. He's going to get it done.

Okay, cool. That's the attitude we want people to have about us. Yeah. But even that, it's like, it's an art, you know. Of course it is. Like, you're kind of balancing, because you don't want to be, like, disingenuous or, like, or fake to the point where they know, like, oh, this guy's faking. Well, yeah. It's like that balance, you know.

And you know how you do that? you don't be fake right you're not just trying to i'm not see this is the thing i'm not trying to build a relationship with echo so that i can get promoted right that will be obvious oh yeah yeah i'm trying to build a relationship with you because it's going to make our team better and it's going to make us do a better job and it's going to benefit everyone at the company and at the team yeah that's why i'm trying to do it i'm not trying to do it so i can get ahead right if you're that kind of snake well then you're just as bad as the other guy yeah you're just one of those guys that's trying to get ahead.

No. What you're doing is you're doing it for the benefit of the team. I wasn't forming relationships with people so I could get promoted. I was forming relationships with people so that we could do a better job so I could get gear for the platoon. So I could get support from some, you know, supply guy. Oh, yeah. Hey, what's up, buddy?

I'm not doing it disingenuously. I actually want to be bros with him. So he knows what we got and who knows what we need. Right. Nothing disingenuous about that. I'll talk about football. Maybe that's a little disingenuous. You know?

Oh, yeah, if you say you like football, you don't mean. Yeah, but that kind of seems like a superficial thing. But you know what? If you're so into football and we're working together, I'm going to actually try and figure out. Like, I want to know. Why are you so into it, man? Tell me about it.

What's so, like, explain that to me. You got 300-pound guys that can run 40 yards in like seconds. That's impressive. Let me learn about that. Let's get into the game. Nothing wrong with that. Not disingenuous. A 300 pound guy running a 40 in 5.0 or less is officially impressive.

Yeah. 5.0 or less 300 pounds. If you're 185, even nowadays 200 pounds, 434, 4, 4, or 4, and less. What'd you do that? 447. It's a little less impressive, I heard. I mean, for college, it's good. I mean, especially back in, back in the,

nowadays guys are flying. It's different now. And it wasn't even that long ago. Yeah. Anyway. Next question. Next question. This question is from an army vet that was in Ramadi in 2004.

Yeah. He noted that to me. Yeah. Which is good to hear. Yeah. Some context and respect, yeah. Just started Jiu-Jitsu. Boom.

I'm a very, I'm a very step action. drill oriented guy. I blame the field artillery officer basic course. Today while training and instructor was talking to me about the flow and creativity and improvisation that is needed. I'm assuming it comes with time. Any ideas on helping to get that way? Or sorry, any ideas on helping to get away from the step action drill mindset or just

let it come? Or do you just let it come? Yeah, that's great. And I know you've seen people like this in the general. It's I see him all the time. It's people that have the personality that is like an engineer personality. Okay, what do I do? Step one, step two, step three, step four.

What, tell me the steps. Quit all this conceptual stuff. Tell me the steps to do. And actually, Higgs was just, Jeff Higgs, he was describing a guy that we train with. And the way he described this scenario, he was talking about this. specific guy who kind of fits this mold and this was this guy was coming to train with us and going to be one of our students and higgs goes yeah you know he he's really good he's got you know he trained super hard he's strong and um he's got a very stubborn jiu jitsu mind which i got a kick off and it's true

but it's this kind of thing where you know you just want to know the steps and you just want to apply him and by the way if you want to teach about options tell me what the options are then. You know, option one, one A, one B, one C, they want to have that mindset for everything. So that stops you, right? We want to get beyond that. We want to get to, it's just like a person playing a musical instrument. You can teach them all the notes, but they need to figure out how to play music, right?

They need to figure out how to create music. That's a difference. I always say this when, if you go to a guitar center, which is a guitar center, which is a guitar store in America and you put up a sign that says, you know, I need someone that can play the following 27 albums note for note. You'll get, you'll get a hundred phone calls if you put a website that said that because you're going to record an album or whatever. But of all those people, not all of them can create a musical song that is original and good and all that. So there's the difference, right? This is the difference between like a normal jiu jih Tzu player who's by the book

and then, you know, a person that creates, the top level guys that are creating new moves all the time. So that's what we want to become. And it's not just to be a top level guy. It's also to be, it's also how you improve. It's how you get better. You've got to figure out how to match the, how to put the notes of jujitsu together. So, and on top of that, it's the same thing with combat. It's the same thing with doing an assault.

It's the same thing with an immediate action drill. It's the same thing with moving down a hallway. If all you know and all you can do in your brain is follow the steps and follow the standard operating procedures, as much as I talk about standard operating procedures being necessary and mandatory, if all you know how to do is follow them, you will fall short. And you will come into a situation where they're not going to work. And now you're going to be done. You're going to stop. You're not going to know what to do.

That happens to Jitsu all the time. So we need to free our mind. That's what we need to do. You need to free your mind. And how do you do that? Well, first of all, discipline equals freedom. So we want to have the discipline. It means we do need to drill the moves.

It means we do need to learn the moves. It means we do need to repeat them over and over again so that we get good at them. We do need to do that. But then we've got to set the mind free. And how do you do that? I mean, go outside your comfort zone, for one. And a lot of guys, everyone does this where you say, you know what? Man, I'm getting everyone in this one move.

I'm going to stop doing it. I'm going to do another move. I'm not going to guillotine anyone. two months you know I'm not gonna come here unless you're echo then you may yeah yeah yeah so go outside your comfort zone work on some work on some move that you don't do throw out your best submission and don't use it so now you're got to be going through all these different different we got to go for different moves you got to get creative same thing with hitting hitting your move from different positions that aren't supposed to work

Yeah, that's big. Like, for instance, you just talked about the guillotine. I'm a fan of the guillotine, but I do guillotine in weird places. I mean, I have people tap out to my guillotine when I'm, when we're in weird positions that no, you should, like, no one's ever been tapped out. And they're like, I don't know how I just got tapped out. How did you do that? Yeah. How did you do?

I was, you know, across the side and I was, yeah, you were, but I had this going on. So try your moves from different positions, random positions. Do try things that shouldn't work, too, right? Try a move that's a top move, try it from the bottom. Try it from the bottom. Try it from the top. Try it from the side.

Try it from cross side. Try it from butterfly guard. Try these different moves and you'll start to create more. The other thing that will free your mind is when you stop worrying about tapping people out and getting tapped out. Yeah.

Worry about progress. Worry about creativity. Try and be more creative. And if all you're worried about is not tapping out, your progress is going to be slow. And if all you're worried about is tapping the other guy out, your progress is going to be slow. If all you're worried about is losing, your progress is going to be slow.

So that's it. And actually one more thing. I would say there's a kind of a dichotomy here. In the one side, you want to be able to turn your brain completely off and just do whatever happens. And at the same time, you want to force your mind to make yourself do particular moves. Right? So go in one of those.

If you're going to think, think about new moves or turn your brain completely off and let things happen as they come. Yeah. Free your mind. The wolf turning your brain off and letting the moves kind of, it's almost like you're letting the move happen on its own kind of thing. That comes with time more and more. You know, like when you first start, that's probably not really going to happen much. Yeah. Yeah.

And also like an example of that is if you were teaching a class and you said, hey, Jocko, come here and, you know, I'm going to do this sweep on you. and you do the sweep and like I would defend it immediately. And I go, sorry, man. And I'd have to sit there and not defend the moves so that you could show the sweep, right? You see what I'm saying? Like it's an complete instinct for me to stop that move or it's a complete instinct for me to grab your hand or stop,

you know, so that's the way it works. You want that. You want it to be an instinct. You want all your moves to be instinctual. Because if you have to think about them in real situations, if the other person is good, then you have to think about what you're going to do, you're going to lose.

Yeah. Because they're not thinking. They're getting that quarter second. It takes a quarter second to process, right? When we used to shooting pistols, it takes a quarter second for you to see the target a quarter and second to get to your holster and a quarter second to get the gun out and get the shot out. It's three quarters of a second.

So if you, all you had to do is just draw and shoot, you'd, a quarter second's gone. Or if you have the gun in your hand, a quarter second's gone. So actually Greg Train, the other did that the other day. And I thought about that. That's why this is fresh in my mind. Like he grabbed my hand real quick. and I was like, oh, he did that sort of like I used to go for my holster

because you can go as fast as you possibly can to your holster. Once you get to your holster, you've got to slow down. But you can go so fast to your holster. That's where I used to make up so much. You know, as fast as I could do my holster. And then once you get there,

you got to slow down. You got to get front side focus. But Greg Chain moved that fast trying to grab my hand like that. And I was like, I'm going to start doing that. I was going to start doing that again, doing a little speed work on him. So, yeah, free your mind.

Back to the point here. And thanks for your server. Yeah, that way of learning. I think it's actually pretty prevalent when you first start because you don't know, you don't know the move, you don't know why it works. You know that it works because your teacher is teaching it to you, but you don't know like why it works. So it's like, all right, just show me, tell me this step to do it, you walk through it.

You learn another move. You learn this move. You learn, you know, he refines your technique. You go roll. You find out, okay, that doesn't work when I do it this way. Or you don't know why it doesn't work. So you got to ask a question. Yeah.

And I'm the kind of learner that I actually, the first thing I wanna know is how does this work? Yeah, I wanna know that before I know even the steps. Yeah. And a lot of times I teach that way. I'm teaching like, here's the concept of what we're trying to make happen. Yeah.

We're trying to get their weight over here. So here's how we're gonna get their weight over there. Now once we get their weight over there, then it's easy to say, hey, now you need to do is slip your hips here and you're gonna be on their back or whatever the case may be. But for me, the concept of what you're trying to make happen is what I like to think about,

and it's what I like to teach. And that's the same thing with combat. You know, there's moves that you're gonna do on the battlefield, but conceptually, what are you trying to make happen? You know, cover and move is, cover and move is the most simple one. You can cover and move an infinite number of ways.

But if you don't cover and move, you're gonna die. And as long as you have one of those millions of different ways of covering and moving, and like some guys would get really particular, in my, when I was, I was running training guys back hey you can't do that and I and I would say well what did they do that you didn't like well you know he he should have gone he should have moved first well did the other guy cover him well yeah well why should the other guy have

gone first well that's the way we taught him okay well does it make sense can you give me a reason not really are they covering and moving yes all right I think they're good yeah yeah you're right they probably are so yeah yeah Yeah, it goes along too very much. It seems like anyway what you're saying about telling people why they're doing what they're doing. Yes. So it's essentially the same thing. In Jiu-Jitsu, you're right.

Because if you just say grab their arm and pull it into your neck so you can sweep them. But what you really want to tell them is like, listen, they're going to put their hand out here for base, for balance. So what you want to do is you want to be ready to move it or move it and you only have to get it to You only have to take their base away for a quarter second You know I say that a lot I say that a lot like people in jiu jitza They try and move They try and they try and affect the other person's body for an extended period of time For 10 seconds

Yeah, yeah for 12 seconds They try and bring the hand into them so they can sweep them and they hold it there for Five seconds I'm gonna hold it for a quarter second because that's all it takes for a sweep to have That's all it takes for an arm lock to happen. That's all it takes for a guillotine to happen is that one quarter second. It's a quarter second is all you're trying to do and once you are winning quarter second quarter second quarter second Now you're one yeah You know, but again if I do feel like that it's a this is I mean it's a it's a it's probably I would imagine it's a spectrum with learning jiu jiu jit too like

You know how you say some guys they just tend to learn that way. Yes, and then some guys tend to learn the other way And it's a you know it's a spectrum. Yeah, yeah both ways is fine and I think in the beginning I know it was for me, and most people that I've seen, in the beginning, you just, you tend to learn that way. Show me the stuff. You don't know the everything. No doubt. No doubt.

And even me. I mean, I'm the, I'm probably pretty far in the extreme spectrum of let me understand the concept. Yeah. And plus your advance, though. I think. No, no. I'm talking about when I was the beginning.

Oh, okay. In the beginning, even I was like, okay, well, how is this working? Yeah. I wasn't like, show me how to do that. I was thinking, how did that happen? Right. How? Why am I?

happening right now. Yeah. How can I not move? You know, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. I wasn't thinking, show me the movement.

I was thinking, what is going on? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually high level guys. You can tell by the way that they teach or the way that they, yeah,

by the way that they teach or train, you can tell that there's high level guys on both sides. There's high level guys that are like, like, for instance, guys that drill all the time, those are the guys that are mechanical. Nothing wrong with it.

They win world champions, championships with that. And then there's guys that don't drill, but they roll like crazy. And their games will reflect that. Jeff Glover. Jeff Glover. Dean Lister, same thing. You don't see those guys doing a lot of drilling.

It's not that they never do it, but if you compare them to, let's say, who's a world champion? I mean, even Galvow. Galvow's a driller. He just will drill. And at least from what. I've seen, you know, from what I've seen of, you know, videos of him training, he's working to move. And you're like, okay, that's awesome.

Guys dominate, dominates. Fantastic jiu-jitsu. Yeah. And I think at the end, when you become that good, even if that's your primarily method of learning or training or whatever, I think when you gain ultimately like the understanding of, okay, I see, I see why this is important to do this or important not to do this, whatever. Even if you are a quote-unquote driller, the creativity part is, it's almost like it's

uncontainable. It'll always, even like Galvow where they do drill a lot. You know what I was, maybe I wasn't thinking. Who made the DVD that was literally called drill to win? It was like one, somebody that's really good made it drill to win, right?

So that's the kind of attitude I'm talking about. That's how you get better. Right. Drilling, drilling, drilling. And what the, the thing is to what, to respond to what you just said is fact. Discipline equals freedom.

If you drill and drill and drill and you make those moves so natural, then you're going to, you're going to hit them from all over the, place. So you're right. The end state is going to be the same. But there's going to be people on all lens of that learning spectrum and training spectrum.

They're going to be all over the place. And some people like, I don't like to drill. Don't enjoy it. Maybe I did at some point. Don't remember. But I would rather roll. Yeah. Yeah.

I think a lot of, again, in the beginning, it seems like what kind of learner you are is going to show itself. way more. Oh yeah, for sure. Just as far as even preference and how you pick things up and a lot goes with the fact

that there's a lot to pick up when you begin. You know, there's so much to learn. So you're like, well, you absolutely have to drill. I mean,

I hope no one's listening to me going, oh, jogooders rolls. No, you have to drill when you start off. You have to. Oh, yeah. You have to learn the body mechanics of it.

Yeah. So, yes, I am talking about a more advanced stage. And I think ultimately, just like how you said, though, I think that in time, once you start learning the moves and given the fact that you are rolling though you know how some people they'll learn

the move then they'll go home oh yeah it's rare but when you you learn whatever this guard pass to the arm bar combo right and you know the steps and grab here put your knee here whatever the guys your your training partner your partner for the drill or whatever is you know he's letting you do it you become a 10 out of 10 in the drill you get so good at that drill you're 10 out of 10 when you go to apply it for real you're still going to fail yes exactly right because you don't know all the all these dynamic variables coming at you. So that's when you gain the understanding. Yes.

That's when more questions are going to pop up. Okay, that need to be answered. You answer them and boom, there's your learning right there. So the drill is good. Yeah, for the bottom mechanic, especially at the beginning because you don't know. You're talking about all your hands, arms, legs, hips, head, everything, arm position. Well, what's even more critical than those things? Because all those things are visible, you can see them.

The things that are harder to teach and to. understand is the weight distribution and the balance distribution. Those are the things that you cannot see. And there's also one more, which is the tension distribution. Because when I'm pulling on your arm, when I grab your wrist, when I'm holding your wrist, I could be putting tension in 360 degrees. Right? If I'm holding your wrist, I could be moving it. I could be putting tension. Now, no one could tell which way I'm putting pushing or pulling or lifting or dragging. No one can tell because your arm isn't moving. Right.

But the tension you can't see, the balance you can't see, and the weight distribution. You can't see any of those things, and that's why it's very hard to teach him. Yeah. Yeah. And really the only way, and again, back to this thing, it comes with time is when you roll live with someone,

then you're going to see all these different subtle different scenarios where the stuff you learned. Dean was teaching an arm lock the other day, you know, like a basic arm lock, which I've probably sat there in the class of his and been his dummy a thousand times. And somebody asked a question and then he was doing the arm lock to me

and I realized something that he was doing that I never noticed before. And it's he's pulling the arm towards his head basically. Like pulling it. Pulling it towards his head. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, in a pretty extreme way. And I realized how incredible

effective it was. It wasn't holding it. He's pulling it. And so like those little things like that, I've, I've been his dummy. And maybe, you know, just because he always being his dummy, he didn't, didn't remember or didn't think about doing that step. But the way the question got asked and even when he's armlocked me, thousands of times, he, you know, I didn't notice it.

You know, I just thought, man, he's got a tight arm lock. Right. But it's like, okay, that was the detail. And I never, you could watch him do that move to me a thousand times or anyone else a thousand times. Then you wouldn't be able to know that detail unless either he told it to you or you felt it. And there's, that's the thing that's crazy about Jit-to. There's all kinds of little, little aspects like that. Balance, weight, and tension that you just can't, you can't see visually.

You can feel them. You can feel them. But even if I say, hey, echo, actually, you can't feel all of it because you can't feel where I'm putting my weight, if I'm putting my weight in the mat. You can't feel if I'm heavy over here. Right. You can't feel that. You don't know where I'm heavy. You just know what I feel heavy, but where's my weight going to be? Now if I have my weight is on you, you can feel it. Yeah, man. That's the jiu-jits. That's the juch.

All right. Before we have just a jiu-jitsu podcast. Yeah. Next question. Joko. When it comes to leading up the chain, what do you do when your goals aren't seeming to align? example making money versus having an impact okay this is the deal here the goals have to align they have to align and furthermore they will align that is now you might have to go pretty high up the chain to make this happen or you might have to dig pretty hard to make that happen but this is a great example right the example is making money versus making an impact and I'm going to tell you that those two actually align.

How do they align? Well, let me explain. If your company makes more money, they will have a bigger impact, right? They will have a bigger impact. So let me break it down a little bit. So if you want to have a big impact on a client, right? And so what you do is you spend so much time and so much money with that client, with that customer, you're going to realize that the company,

if you invest that much to a client or to a customer, you invest that much time and that much money, your company's going to go out of business. Now how much impact are you having with that client? The answer is zero. Now, sometimes the opposite happens. And this is probably what the question is related to. For instance, if we, as a company,

we start cutting corners on quality. We start cutting corners on quality. orders on customer service or whatever the case may be. We might make more money in the short term. Oh, like to save money kind of thing. You know what? We were supposed to have 10 people answering phones. We're going to fire six of them.

We're going to have four left. That means everyone's waiting on the phone. So now we don't have good customer service. Now we're starting to write a Yelp review. I was on hold for 14 hours. I hate this company, right? This happens. This is what happens.

This is the example. So now up the chain of command. So before it was, look, we need 30 people in the call. center to answer the phone. And that way, everybody gets an answer within 30 seconds when they call in and what customer calls in, okay, we're out of business in a month because we can't afford 30 people, so now we

have no impact. The other end of the spectrum is we have three people in the call center responding to phone calls. Everyone has to wait an hour. Now everyone hates our company. We also have no impact. So the goals have to be aligned

at some case. But the thing is, it is a balancing act. It's between expenditures for the cost to produce or the cost to provide service. And you've got to keep that as low as possible so that money is made. But you can't go so low that quality and customer service and follow-on business and customer relations. You can't go so low that it gets destroyed. And so you as a worker need to realize that your higher ups are trying to balance that.

And they're saying, hey, you can't dedicate this much time or you can't dedicate that much time. Echo, you're spending too much time with each client. You need to get three more clients. Well, I can't give them the impact that I want. I can't give them the focus? Okay, can you handle one more client? Yeah, I could probably do that. Okay, we're finding the balance.

You know, another good restaurant business, right? Restaurant business is a really easy, simple one to understand because, the quality of the food that we get and the quality of the the the chefs that we have the the the more it costs to buy the food the good food and the higher quality chef and cook and help we have the better the food's going to be well all that stuff costs more money so you got to find that if you you have a restaurant where it's the best hamburger in the world it's $84 you're not going to have a line at that place you but you mean you have impact because you're having the best burger in America guess what is you're not going to

to be in business to have that your impact is going to be zero other side of the spectrum salmonella poisoning because you're buying cheap stuff you cut you know refrigeration costs and and that's you guess what you're going out of business too yeah so the goals are aligned at the end of the day because profit equals growth growth equals impact now you know are there ethical times where someone says hey we're screwing over come yeah absolutely what's happened at wells fargo right wells fargo had a had a had a a plague of that type of behavior. And it was rampant throughout the whole company. Guess where they're at now?

They're hurting. They're hurting. They made a bunch of money in the short term. But guess what? Now they're not trusted. So they got to do some recuperation. But that's a classic example. So someone from Wells Fargo might have asked this question.

Yeah. You know, a year ago before the story broke and said, hey, Jocko, we're trying to do something positive here. And the company, my goals aren't alive with the company. and he would have been right and he should have raised his hand because what he could have said was hey bosses if we keep this up

we're going to lose the trust and confidence of the public and we're going to be hurting and he would have been correct so you got to find that balance but just remember that even though the goals might not seem aligned they are aligned in the end they need to be not saying they always are

but if they're not aligned in the end you're probably going to go out of business because you just cut a swath of mayhem. You destroy your customers either through high prices or by low service. One of those two things are going to happen

if you don't find the dichotomy, the balance, not even dichotomy, it's the balance. You've got to find the balance. Next question. What is your next book about? Well, the cat is out of the bag essentially now. So

because the book is available on Amazon right now, it's called The Way of the Warrior Kid and, yes, It is a kid's book, but I am telling you, I'm telling you, I've got, this, this is, this book is gonna, there's gonna be a lot more people than just kids that learn from this book, myself included. So, and you know, part of it stemmed, I had it in the bank for a while. But one of the things that happened is we talked about the Jocko Academy on this podcast. Hey, well, if you ran, somebody asked me the question, great question.

If you ran an academy for kids, what would you teach? And I kind of went through what that would be like. And what was cool was when that podcast came out, so many people reached out to me and said, you've got to do this. This will be awesome. And we actually are working behind the scenes slowly to get something moving in that direction. But I realized, you know, forming a school the way I want to make it,

forming an academy the way I want it to be. It's a big effort. It's a big financial effort. but how do we help kids in the meantime, right? How do we help kids in the meantime? Well, I realized what I could do is write a book or finish this book that I had the idea for. So that's what I did. Hammered it out.

And this is the story. It's about a kid. Kid name is Mark. And when the story opens up, he's just kind of finishing his last couple days of school. And he's having a rough time. He's having a rough time because he's, well, first of all, he can't do any pull-ups, which may not seem like a big deal, but guess what? In his school, they have little PE tests.

And one of the things they got to do is pull-ups. And so the last day of school, like, you know, they have field day in Hawaii. Yeah. So they have field day. So he's just, one of the events they do is pull-ups. How many pull-ups can everyone do? He's hiding in the back. Trying to hide.

He doesn't want to do the pull-ups in front of everyone. Guess what? He gets called out so everybody knows. Confirm. They knew before. Now he's confirmed. He can't. He doesn't. That kid can't do any bulbs.

The class field trip, guess where they go? They go to a pond. They go to a lake and they go swimming. Real fun. If you know how to swim. Mark doesn't know how to swim. So he's, and now they know that too. Not only that on top of that, doesn't know his times tables.

Right? Yeah. What six times six? Don't know. So on top of all that, he's getting bullied. He's getting bullied by big Kenny Williamson, big bully who calls himself, he calls himself the king of the jungle. Because the jungle gym in the schoolyard? Yeah, it is.

Right, right. So horrible last day of school gets picked on, all that stuff. And when he comes home, he's reminded by his mom that his mom that his, that his, his, Uncle, Uncle Jake, who is in the SEAL teams. Of course. He's getting out of the SEAL teams. He's gonna be going to college after the summer. So this summer, he's staying with Mark.

And that's what happens. So Uncle Jake, you know, he kind of hears all these issues that he's having all these problems. And you can imagine what Uncle Jake said. Uncle Jake said good. You got problems? Those are the kind of problems we can solve right there. We can take care.

You can't do polls? No problem. What do we do we work out? Oh, you don't know your times tables? What do you do? Study. Let me teach you how to study. Let me show you about flash cards.

Let me show you how to get in the game academically. Oh, you don't know how to swim? You're going to learn how to swim. Oh, and you're getting picked on? How do we stop that? Real easy. Little something called jiu-jitsu. Of course.

So that's what happens. The Uncle Jake shows Mark how to be, instead of a wimpy kid, how to be a warrior kid. And teaches him how to be stronger and smarter and better. And it also, you know, he learns about humility. He learns about respect. He learns about courage and determination. And, you know, I wish that I have.

had this book when I was a kid because I think she's gonna be I think it's gonna be helpful I think it's to be helpful and that's what that's what I'm hoping for I'm hoping it can have an impact on some people's lives and I hope that I hope that it allows you know parents and kids to get closer together and you know as I was you know I normally take a a question for kind of like closing and you know I I usually try and pick a question that's going to be you know it's going to be impactful right and honestly man when I was preparing for this podcast and I was doing the first couple letters that I read I was just at a point where I didn't think I'd be able to step it up any further and so I just wanted to Think about that. You know, you think about John Burns and his daughter

and makes me hope that this can bring people together, bring parents closer to their kids, and help their kids move down the right path in life. Because no matter what you think about life, and the afterlife and immortality and whether you believe in that or not one thing I do know is the one thing that you do leave behind

is your kids so let's give them the best we can and get them prepared for life and get them prepared for the sunny days and the sparkling skies filled with stars and let's also get them ready for the challenges and the bullies and the

darkness so that they can survive and thrive and pass that strength of character and I think that's all I've got for tonight so echo Charles I know it's been a little bit of a rough night for you too. I apologize, but maybe, maybe when you get home tonight, you give your beautiful daughter a little extra hug, and you plan a kiss on the forehead of your son. And before you do that, maybe you could tell everyone how they might be able to support this podcast if they so desire.

Before I go too deep into that, I got to admit something. But it's going to be relevant to worry. I worked out today. Because a lot of people in the world just went, oh, no. You worked out today. I'll make it. Yeah, it worked out today.

But this is the part, this is the admission part. I drank some last night. Why? Just, you know, sometimes when you... Weakness. Yeah, ultimately. But it's one of these things. Was it some kind of a celebration?

No, it was, I was just working. And, you know, the kind of you drink a little bit, you kind of get into it. And then I'm like, oh, shoot, let me drink some more and more into it. Anyway, just one of those deals. Anyway, nonetheless, we ended up not getting that much sleep and drinking. But I'm like, no, I committed to working out today. You held the line at least?

Held the line, yeah, fully. So, and we're going back to that, the pre-workout stuff. Total performance, I think it's called, you know, on it. Anyway, the pre-workout stuff. So I'm like, all right, now we're going to see how this works under duress, if you will. You know what I'm saying? Anyway, it took it. Okay.

Smash the workout. Boom. Same pop. That pop I was talking about last time was there. People mentioned the pop on Twitter. You know, the pop is real. Anyway, so the moral to that story is. So are you telling everyone they can drink?

And as long as they have some of this, they'll be good to go. I don't want to hear that. You would have been, you'd had more. Pop. Yeah, a lot more, I think. Had you just kept your head in the game. Yeah, well, if I were to say that, I would have to do a lot more tests. I would have to drink more times.

Let's not do that. Yeah, yeah. We like the new and improved echo. Yeah. A lot better. Right on. But yeah, total performance is a go. Straight up go.

It's in the rotation. Oh. It is. Good. I like it. Cril oil. Total performance. Alpha brain when needed.

Shroom tech when needed What other ones? Did I miss? Oh, where are your bars? When needed. That's my go-to. That's my EDC everyday consumption.

Not everyday carry. Right? That's the other. Anyway, by On It, if you don't know already, I know I said it before. I'm going to say it again. From Onet.

The best supplements. Not like power gainer 5,000 supplements. Like the for real supplements that, you know. But you got to do the workout. You got to get your rest. You got to eat good. the supplements is to supplement.

I think people overlooked that. You know what? Let's make a bar, a good protein bar, or a good steak bar. And we'll just call it good. So that way, when you're having to eat good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you eating good? Yeah.

I'm like one right now. That's a good diet. So anyway, if you want to tell you, if you like these things, if you're down, if you don't already have supplements and you want to get some supplements, to give you the extra, you know, the boost, the pop, in this case, go audit.com. If you want 10% off, throw a little slash jocco in there. You get 10% off.

Boom, support everything, support the podcast, support yourself. And your gains. Another way. Yes. Another way to do it is, or do it, meaning another way to support the podcast. Big one. Small but big. Amazon click through.

What that is. is before you do Amazon shopping, whatever it is your buy, whether it's a book that you heard on this podcast or otherwise or anything. Before you go Amazon.com, go to jaco podcast.com. Click on the Amazon banner. Then you go do your shopping. So it kind of supports that way. It's like this three way of support thing going on.

Small action, big impact. So yeah, that's a good one. Subscribe, of course, to iTunes Stitcher Google Play. Write a review on iTunes Yeah That's a good Do that Yeah

Boom support If you want Anyway It seems obviously You subscribe to iTunes already But in the event of you Not subscribing Good subscribe if you want

Support in that way Or whatever it is you'll use Google Play Stitcher Stitcher There's another app I've been here in lately But I can't remember

What it is It's not Spotify Is it? That's something else That's not podcast I don't know But yeah subscribe boom

if it's on there and then YouTube starting to put out more videos on a more consistent basis I think I put one out today yesterday sometime very recently and you want to subscribe

to the YouTube channel I want to watch the videos get updates when when the videos come out that's a good way to support too and then of course Jockwe has a store it's called Jocko Store

can get cool stuff I think it's cool and I'm not saying go buy their shirts. I'm not saying that. I'm saying go look on there. We made an effort collectively to put some cool stuff out there. But keep in mind, that's our opinion. That's my opinion.

That they're cool. If you think they're cool, then you get a shirt. That's what I'm saying. And you can support that way. The shirts is rash guards for jiu-jitsu or any kind of physical activity. A lot of people are using for cycling and CrossFit, whatnot. Really good for that. They look cool.

I think they look cool. The patches, the Velcro ones came back in. So we got Velcro patches back. Some bumper stickers and hoodies, of course. We'll come out with some more stuff, I think. I support that idea. You support, okay, good. There you go.

So, yeah, if you want to support that way and Jocco supports this idea, I feel like that's another three-way support, closed-circuit deal. It's good to get in that. if you want if you like it and then of course psychological warfare okay if you don't know what psychological warfare is it's an album you can get and each track is when you feel weakness of waking up like if you're you know those days and i'm going to speak from experience because i know a

little bit about this the day where you're kind of hung over i know this was long time ago maybe you're hungover maybe you're tired you didn't get that much sleep maybe um maybe your mind is on something else and you're like I know I told myself it's gonna work out today but today I'm not feeling it I'm gonna turn today into a rest day when you're thinking that like those moments of weakness you listen to one of these tracks two of these tracks whatever it's jaco telling you why you should not skip today you see your waging psychological warfare on your mind this yes the weaknesses that are trying to reveal themselves in your mind. And I can say with 100% certainty

that if you're having a day of, or a moment of weakness and you listen to this track, whether you're about to eat some, you know, when you're hungry, when you miss lunch, and you're like, dang, I'm hungry. And you see, like, you know, in whatever, get donuts or Oreos or whatever.

When you're real hungry, it's kind of harder. Anyway, if you're having a moment of weakness like that, whether it be food stuff, waking up early, skipping workouts, whatever, listen to this. I'll say with 100% certainty, you won't lack, you won't slack. Well, and there's also an awesome young girl on Twitter

of someone's daughter, and she's saying, she's saying sugar-coated. Those donuts are sugar-coated lies. I actually got fired up. I'm not going to eat a donut ever again. I retweeted it, it's awesome. That was classic. And you can get it on iTunes,

but you can also get it on Amazon.com or like Amazon music. I saw it on Amazon. Oh, it's on there. Okay. Yeah. You don't know. Oh, here's the thing. The very, oh, should I say, very competent distributor that we're working with.

Oh, they distribute it. I did choose all these things. And I forgot that I went through that process already because I was so focused on like iTunes or whatever. And yes. So I ended, the fact is I end up going through that. process and it did get distributed through there. But since I don't use, I mean, I use Amazon music, but iTunes just seems like the obvious

one. I just didn't think about it. Yeah, well, what's cool about Amazon is it puts when you, if you look at Jocka White Tea, it'll say extreme ownership. It'll say way of the warrior kid and it'll say psychological warfare all right there from Amazon. That's pretty awesome. Boom.

The way they understand your desires. Because there's no way you can resist that one. But it's right there. You're like, hey, this is awesome. I'm going to get the grand slam. Order them all. And, yeah. Also, yeah, so speaking of that, you can get the jockel white tea.

You've had it by now, and you know the deal. You know that you're clean and jerk is just out of control. You're throwing that thing through the roof. Also, for international orders, by the way, I hate to do this because it's going to put some work on the resourcing company that's doing this for it. But if you're international, go through eBay. There's an official listing of Jocko podcast. You'll see that it's sold by Pearl Resourcing.

And they also, it says the shipping is $100. That's not the shipping. There's like variating shipping. So they just kind of quote that price, but then I think they figured out later. So they don't have to ask me about that. But, yeah, we're trying to get it to people overseas. I'm not saying it's going to not sell out quickly, but it's there.

If also, if you like when we talk about war or leadership on this podcast, you can pick up the book, Extreme Ownership, right? Myself and my brother Lafabin wrote it. And that's what we talk about, leadership in war. And like I said earlier, go ahead and get some copies. of the way of the warrior kid. You're going to dig it. Extreme ownership muster is happening May 4th and 5th

at the Marriott Marquis in New York City. It's a conference for people that want to get after it. That's what it is. Leadership on the battlefield in business and in life. Why do I say battlefield? Well, first of all,

because we have military people that will be there. We have police officers that will be there. So they're on the battlefield, right? Business, obviously we have business people firefighters, they're in battle with fire, but it's a lot of it, majority of it's business people that want to get after it. And it's also people that want to get after it

and lead in life. It's gonna sell out. We have a, if, uh, echo finally. Quality, not quantity. Finally. A great video executed later is better than a good video executed now. Well,

we'll probably have a video up pretty soon. and until then until the muster if you do want to cruise with us we can be found inside the interwebs on Twitter on

Instagram and if you has that Facebook you boa how we're gonna be on that one too Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at

Jocko Willink And finally, thanks for listening to this podcast. And thank you for supporting it with everything that you do to support it. But more important, thanks for getting in the game with us, losing weight or gaining weight or learning jiu-jitsu or leading better. Guys like Army vet James Kenny. You know what? 64 years old, no factor.

Surgery, no factor. torn muscles, no factor. Three hour or something commute to the gym to train Jiu-Jitsu, no factor. Intrinsic will and discipline? Big factor. Because James, 64 years old, just got his blue belt. Congratulations, James. And I know a ton of you were out there doing the same thing.

military members out on the battlefield, police officers on the beat, firefighters on the scene, you're doing the same thing, smashing obstacles. And the rest of you in the workforce, working, grinding through the day and the night to get your work done and still getting after the workouts and the family events and the jiu jitsu classes thank you for what you are doing and for realizing that if you have the will and the discipline the obstacles you face are no factor and they cannot stop you from getting after it so until next time this is echo and jaco out