Jocko Podcast - 74: Hard Times, Violence, Death, Darkness, The Cro-Mags, & Redemption. Hardcore Life w/ Harley Flanagan.

Episode Date: May 9, 2017

0:00:00 - Opening  0:12:06 - Crazy from the start. 0:17:39 - Introduction to Music. 0:30:17 - New York Life. 0:40:54 - The Hard Core Scene. 0:48:09 - Skin Heads and Drugs. 0:57:51 - More trouble in New York. 1:12:16 - The Cro-Mags. 1:34:23 - Sinking deep into Darkness. 1:45:43 - Bouncing back.  Jiu Jitsu, etc. 1:55:36 - The Break Up. 2:06:11 - Focusing on Family. 2:16:45 - Another Violent Incident. 2:24:51 - Finding the Good. 2:36:44 - Losing Mother. 2:42:45 - Final Thoughts. 2:49:11 - Support, Cool Onnit, Amazon, JockoStore stuff, with Jocko White Tea and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes). Extreme Ownership (book), (Jocko's Kids' Book) Way of the Warrior Kid, and The Muster 003.  3:23:45 - Closing Gratitude.    Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 74 with Echo Charles and me Jock Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Now, I always dug music. And I'm pretty sure it started when my dad would play Hank Williams, Sr. On the 8th track in his, I think it was a 1971 barrow. Kuda. And he'd play that tape just over and over again.

And I still know those songs by heart. And then, you know, that was when I was a little kid. And then I got a little bit older. And like a lot of kids, all of a sudden I was listening to the Beatles. Sure. Elvis. Thought they were great. I still think that song, while my guitar gently weeps, is a good song.

But that wore out kind of quickly. and there was something wasn't there in that music something just wasn't quite there the music didn't sound how I felt and then in 1980 ACDC back and black came out and it was popular right it was popular and so it went into my ears at some point and I said dang all right better closer, warmer, we're getting there. And then I watched around in the hard rock for a while, Hendricks, Led Zeppelin, and I can't help throwing it on a little Jack Black when I say that,

if you watch that tribute that he did to them. And that, you know, some of the kids that I hung around with in New England, they rode that train down to hippiedom. you know we're talking crosbie stills and nash and janus joplin and the grateful dead and all that i couldn't relate wasn't there didn't get there didn't seem to reflect the world that i was beginning to see myself i got on the other train right and we're talking about van hayland yes this is the 1980s you know if you were a kid in America age 13 we got issued the album 1984 by van hailing that was just a given you were going to get that got issued diver down boom you need to

listen to this this is rock and roll people this is Eddie van hailmeline listen to that guitar soul eruption listen again do it again iron maiden right actual song called trooper you know you got to listen that when you're a kid and so now i'm heading in the right direction i'm feeling it starting to reflect what the things are like in my head and then there was that day where i got an album called black sabbath by a band called black sabbath and the first song is also called black sabbath and i put that on and boom I had found something that sounded like I was thinking

and from there I was definitely on the right train then it was motorhead and soon after the Ramones boom and then that leads to the sex pistols because you're just going harder

that's what you do that's what I was doing like what's a little bit harder What's a little bit harder than that? Sex pistols, bodies. No feelings. They're singing songs, no feelings. Okay, I hear what you're saying. Louder, more anger.

And then finally we get to Black Flag. My war, side two. Still one of my all-time favorites, minor threat. Get a hold of a little band, another little band from D.C. called the Bad Brains. Some Detroit hardcore negative. approach and then so I was you know I was kind of in the game right I was there and so 87 rolls around and one of my friends who is actually more of a metalhead at this time

he gives me a cassette tape because this was dark in the dirty when you were just going to have to listen to cassette tapes and they were usually dubbed 47 times from somebody else but I this was the real tape man this was the real deal this was an actual original with the full cover on it and everything and the cover of this tape was just a giant mushroom cloud of death and destruction and above the mushroom cloud in large old English script blazing across the top it said chromags okay and then underneath the mushroom cloud in a little bit smaller script in old English it said the age of coral okay So I put it in my tape deck.

Sure. And I press play. And the first track, it hit me like a train. And the first track was called We Gotta Know. And let me just tell you the lyrics. Sure. Struggling in the streets just trying to survive, searching for the truth just to keep us alive.

Got to break these shackles. Got to break these chains. The only way we'll do it is if we use our brains. There's got to be some meaning to the purpose of life. I know there must be more than the struggle and strife, looking for the answers and I need a clue, but my mind is so disturbed now. What do I do? Now, I can tell you, I was not struggling in the streets. But like most teenage kids, I did feel some shackles, right? You feel the shackles of things. And I was looking for answers, and I needed a clue. And so I was like, hmm, yeah.

We're on to something the next title track had me a little worried A little concerned because you know like I said there was a lot of kids were taking the hippie route And so I was not into that The next song title had me a little concerned it was the song was called world peace As I was kind of oh oh oh oh red flag and then I listened to the lyrics Lyrics all you hippies better state start to face reality are you all your far Fetched dreams of anarchy better start to see things the way they are because the way things are going They won't be going far world peace can't be done it just can't exist world peace can't be done

Anarchy is a mess okay and the rest of the album kept up that Assault on my brain on my attitude and that was it I had found something called hardcore music. And I never really left it. And I listened to the Cromags and a ton of other hardcore bands from that time until now, and that's pretty much essentially

the soundtrack of much of my life. And it had a pretty big influence on me. And it was an attitude that I kept throughout my life. And it was my own interpretation. I can tell you that right now. It was my own kind of, you know, you listen to the lyrics and you kind of apply what it means in your world.

That's what I did. Which to me was pretty simple. Because to me, hardcore meant hardcore. That's what it meant. It's pretty simple. Hardcore and everything you do. Work hard. Be aggressive.

Don't back down. Fight for what you believe in. Hold the line. And that's kind of what I did in my life. And I don't know, like a year ago or something. Somebody asked me something about, you know, on the interwebs. someone said oh yeah what what what band should I listen to you know I said oh blah blah chromax you know check them out whatever and you might want to do that and eventually

you know it's the the internet is an incredible thing and eventually I I uh the founding member of the Chromeax guy by the name of Harley Flanagan sure he like reached out and say hey What's up, man? How you doing? And I had heard over the years, you know, that Harley was a jih Tijitu guy, Black Belch, in Jiu Jiu Jitsu. And so, you know, he just kind of hit me up. And eventually, you know, we were talking and he said, hey, I got a book coming out.

Send it to you. And I said, cool. Yeah. And he said, man, the book's crazy. And I was kind of like, yeah, you know, yeah, I know, man, because you know, I was around that stuff. It's cool. I get it.

It's kind of crazy. And he's like, no, no, no, man. It's crazy. And I said, okay, cool. So he sent it to me. And then I read the book. And, damn, I had no idea.

Actually, I had a semblance of an idea. You know, because in the hardcore scene, people know each other. I mean, like, you know, after a show, you talk to everyone, and it's the band members, it's people. Everyone kind of knows each other. So I'd heard stories.

But the book, when the reality behind the stories was way more intense and crazier than I could have thought it was. And it was one point when I was reading the book, I'm going to read a little excerpt right now. And it said this, this is Harley. When I started working on this book, I was staying in a hotel in the Red Light District in Amsterdam. The working title was the longest suicide note ever written. I was trying to document the madness from as far back as I could remember until the end. The story of my life as an insane suicidal joyride of rock and roll depravity and demise until the final crash and burn. It was going to be a book that all the...

the great fuck-ups never got to write because they died first. So I began working on it. I figured the end would have come sooner than later. But I was wrong. And once I got done reading the book, I reached out to Harley and I said, hey, man, there's a lot in this book. That's crazy. And the fact that you live through it and the fact that you got through it and the fact that you got through it and the fact that you got to the position that you're in now with your life.

I think a lot of people can learn from it and it'd be awesome if you come on to the podcast and Harley said, let's do it. So Harley Flanagan, welcome to the show, man. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, it's awesome. And I saw you several times when I was a kid

and we were trying to figure out names of clubs where I saw you, but, you know, that was pretty cool and it's pretty cool to be sitting here. I guess we're talking about 30 years later, you know, because I was seeing you when I was in my teens 14, 13, 15 around there. And here we are. Pretty amazing trip we've had since then. Yeah.

Yeah. And usually when I ask people, hey, you know, talk about where you come from quickly and kind of where you grew up and we don't spend a lot of time there because most people didn't really do anything significant that had any long-term impact on their lives. when they're like eight, nine, ten years old, right? But for you, I mean, when you were eight, nine, ten years old, shit was already crazy.

Yeah, yeah. She was pretty much crazy from the start. Yeah. I'm going to just kind of pull a little something here out of the book, just to give a little bit of background. This is from Harley's book, Hardcore Life of My Own. I was born at San Francisco General Hospital, on March 8th, 1967, at the start of the summer of love.

My mom's name is Rose Marie Phileu. Felyu. And my dad's name was Harley Wayne Walker Flanagan. My mom was a hippie. My dad was a drifter. And somehow their paths crossed. Before the hippie days, my mom was into all the early rock and roll stuff, Motown, and pretty much all the music that was happening when she was young.

Her father, Juan Felue. Yes, Juan Felue. Juan Felue came from the DR, the Dominican Republic, came to America through Ellis Island by himself when he was in his early teens and was one of the first Dominicans to join the United States Army. Served in World War II where he played in the military band. That's how he got his citizenship by serving in the military. He was one of the funniest people I ever knew.

He worked all kinds of different jobs, everything from building a building super to a longshore. He was a charming guy with a thick Spanish accent. So that's the beginnings. Did you speak any Spanish? Curse a little bit. So you got that going for you. Now you continue on. My mom was a go-go dancer.

And like so many people, she was caught up in the whole drug culture of the 60s. When I was a kid, she was still a stripper. I remember going to work with her a few times. when I was little. That was weird, looking back on it now. There was even a short period of time when she was a dominatrix, but that was later. My dad left home for good around the same age as me, maybe 14 or 15, and started riding freight trains. He liked to live from moment to moment and from everything I've heard. He had a serious drug and alcohol issues most of his life.

He was always in and out of prison. It's hard to accept that your dad chose heroin and alcohol over you. It really does kind of hurt even now. I guess that might be one of the reasons why it turned out the way I did. My mom and me did a lot of hitchhiking and stayed with a lot of different people. A lot of crazy shit happened on those trips. At one point, a friend of hers was going to Europe and asked, do you want to come?

And my mom was like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. She did, and I went with her. I was probably around three or four. That was that. I never saw my father again. I stayed in Europe pretty much until I was about 10, but I come back to the States every year or so. We settled down in Denmark, 1971.

Denmark and Danish culture are very wholesome. It's a great place to grow up, but of course there's an underside too. in the 60s and in my case the late 60s and 70s it was cool in certain aspects and wasn't so cool in others you had all these people

fucked up on drugs and all the free love everybody's fucking everybody and it's not really the best environment for a kid to grow up in and as cool as some of the things and a lot of the people were a lot of them were

at least some of them were just fucking lost and yeah all the kids were Wild, what do you expect? I mean, we were just imitating the grownups. So as a result, I was getting laid and doing all kinds of other crazy shit before I'd even reach puberty. You basically had a lot of little kids just going off. You got all these hippie kids with their hippie parents, seeing all kinds of craziness, adults running around naked, people doing drugs, being insane. That shit rubs off on kids.

Damn. Yeah. Did you completely think that was normal? at the time? Was that just the way the world was? That's the way my world was. I didn't realize really that we were so different from the rest of society until

my parents tried to put me into a regular school and of course I started getting fucked with a lot by the kids because I had long hair and I didn't I didn't really fit in and my parents looked like freaks. And now is when it really hit me.

And it was also, I went from being at that hippie school to being in a very strict school in Denmark, which was like real old school and very rigid. So it was total... Culture shock for you. Yeah, it was like, what the fuck, you know? And so I started cutting school a lot and going back to the free school

to visit all my friends there and just hang out. And that free school, that's where you started... Is that where you started playing? Pretty much. You know, I mean, I was always into music. but that was really the first place that facilitated it. You know, like they, that was one of the cool things about that school was they really pushed the arts. You know, whatever the kids' interests were, they would give you the ability to pursue that.

Unfortunately, they were also very lax. So if, like, you didn't have the interest in pursuing math or whatever, they'd be like, oh, well, you know, he's just not interested in it. You know, he wants to be a musician. And it's like, you know, as we all know, as parents, it's like, no, fuck that. You need to know how to do your math. You need to know your shit. You need to know how to use your brain. You know, it's not just about, you know, gratifying your artistic and creative interests

because that's not going to always pay your fucking bills. Yeah. So, no, but it was cool. It was cool in certain ways, like I said. You know, they, my math teacher, he was actually from the States. He was from the Bronx. And he was a jazz drummer and played stand-up bass. And he really was a big inspiration on me musically.

So, you know, it gave me some tools that came in handy later in life. Yeah, for sure. So you were listening to actually got your first gig then. Like you were playing little Santana covers and cooling the gang covers when you were six or seven in your school band. Yeah, my school band. was cool they were legit yeah yeah no they were fucking legit i mean we were like you know funky stuff you know i mean we were playing the like i said that um my math teacher he was one of the band

leaders so you know you got a guy from the bronx who's a jazz dude he's gonna be teaching all these little danish kids musically what's really going on right because in denmark at the time things that you know aba was what was big you know so you know i mean so it was like what the fuck you know so yeah my school was cool as far as music and uh... Counterculture and all that shit, but then you know then well as you may have seen in the book really then When my mother of all people turned me on to the sex pistols that's what really That changed everything Yeah, you know

Thanks mom That was that was an eye opener Oh yeah When you heard the sex pistols oh yeah It changed everything for me and at that time like you got one section here where you said I remember coming off stage You're playing with the band that I think the school band at this point i remember coming off stage one night these girls there that i was hanging out with

they were like you know that lady you came with which was your mom she's in the bathroom she's not feeling too good i went in the bathroom and my mom was throwing up all over the place that kind of shit was a kind of come down yeah back to reality you have to walk your mom home yeah yeah yeah it's fucked up you know little things like that they stay with you forever but um you know to to her uh she she did sober up eventually and you know she's she sobered up for about in the 80s until the day she died

she was clean and uh you know yeah you know people fall victim to drugs to alcohol and uh sometimes it's hard to pull yourself out you know but eventually she did you know unfortunately i had to witness a lot of real um ridiculous shit but um you know i don't think there's such a thing as a thing as a perfect parent you know yeah no no doubt about that and your mom she did like you said she gets you the sex pistols out yeah and he like you said in here you said well that was that yeah yeah and it's almost kind of what I was saying here we go go into your book here until that point I hung around with all these little hippie kids I had long ass hair so we were really already little freaks we'd walk around the streets people would give us looks and trip out on us

Our parents and teachers had long hair and beards and shit like that. But then punk rock came about. And this was more appropriate for me. It wasn't all peace and love. It was just more me. The music was raw and the imagery and the craziness appealed to me. It was energetic. And a big factor for me was you didn't have to aspire to be Jimmy Hendrix.

You didn't have to be Carlos Santana. So you listen to that music and you'd say, you know what? I can just play it. I'm going to be that good. I can do this. play that now this i can have fun and do this shit like this is you know you don't need to rack your brain to figure out how to do this you could just do it yeah you know get your power chords yeah man you know it's like you just need sincerity man that's all you need man that's all you

fucking me you know what's funny is i i always tell people this about music if you go to a guitar store anywhere in america and you put up a little flyer in there that says you know i need someone that can play every note on the following three albums, you know, and you pick complex, you pick rush and heart and there, and there'll be, there'll be, you'll get 10 people that'll say, yeah, I can play all that stuff. I'll play it for you right now. But there's, and all those guys, I mean, a lot of those guys, unless they have that thing, unless they have that sincerity that you're talking about, and they have that little spark of creativity, it doesn't matter how technically you are if you don't have that heart. You could be technically amazing and have not one.

ounce of inspiration in your fucking body, you know. And I mean, look, man, you know, the Ramones were, you know, some of the worst, greatest musicians ever. You know, those guys could barely fucking play. And they wrote some, they wrote songs that are still anthems. You know, songs that you will still hear played at like major sports arenas or, and whatever. I mean, you know, yeah, you know, music's a fucking weird thing, man. It is. It is. It is. And you had your first band called Little Big Boss. Was that in reference to you, I'm assuming? You know what?

It must have been years old. You know, it must have been because the other two guys in the band were adults. And they named the band. So looking back, they probably named it after me because I was like, I guess, already a tyrant to play with. And you were playing drums at that point? Yeah, yeah. Hammering all the drums.

Yeah, man. And then you guys move back to New York. Yeah. And you were going back and forth, back and forth. Yeah. Yeah, me and my mom, we lived in Europe, but we would come back every like year or year and a half or so to see my grandparents and my aunts and stuff.

And so we always had that connection to New York. We always came back. And I was here during all like the pivotal moments in history in New York. Like, you know, I remember son of Sam, which was huge if you were here. You know, I remember the blackouts, which were also huge if you were here. I remember the garbage strike, which was all. also insane because you had like, you know, 20 foot mountains of garbage every fucking where. I mean, the city stank. I mean, you know, like I remember all the madness of New York.

I mean, I moved back here for good in 79, like, I guess January or February of 79. It was like the weeks it died. Actually, the stimulators were supposed to play Max's the one weekend that he was playing and he died before the show. But, um, yeah, you know. it was a much different place back then, you know, you guys know, but, you know, a lot of people who have only been here over the last 20 years, they, they have no clue. Yeah, it is a different place. And, I mean, you know, in the book, you got crazy pictures like you and Andy Warhol. Yeah.

Because you were just, it was your aunt Denise that was running with them? Well, no, actually, he, that, or is that just a random picture? My mom actually knew him. She had been in one of his movies when she was young when she was like 15 or something. And that picture was just taken at the class show. Like I used to run into people like him at different clubs and stuff. This was backstage at a clash gig the first time they played in New York. You look like you're about 10?

I was actually 12 in that picture. But yeah, I mean, I was at all the clubs all the time. You know, I mean, it was actually. It was, you know, kind of weird, you know, thinking back on it. Because, like, I mean, when I, when I, I did a thing with Anthony Bourdain a while back, and he was like, you know, he's like, I remember standing in front of clubs like Max's and trying to get in. And, you know, here come this, like, 12-year-old kid and just, like, walk through the fucking door. Like, the bouncers would just, like, let him in.

Like, you know, like, he belonged in there. And I'm like, who the fucking, why the fuck is this child here? Like, who let him in and who the fuck is he? And why are they serving him? Like, he's the person. fucking mayor you know you know you know thinking back it's yeah it's fucking a little strange you know I mean I was I was the youngest kid that you around on the club scene back then and then you know as time went on you know my band the stimulators really uh had a lot to do with it the the crowds at the

show started getting younger and younger because like you know we started pulling a very young following you know, go figure, a 12 year old in the band. And people like the Beastie Boys, they started coming to see it before they were the Beastie Boys. They were like, they were just fans of ours, friends of mine. They were like some of my best friends growing up. And then a lot of other people who went on to start a lot of the first wave of New York

hardcore bands were fans of the stimulators, kids who were all like, you know, in their early teens when they used to see us play. and then they went on to start a lot of the bands that, you know, set off that next week. How long did you play with the stimulators for? I had only played with them from like 79 to like 80, maybe the beginning of 81. And then I was done with it because at that point I had already, you know, the bad brains had come to New York. And I was already, and I was, all that first hardcore that came out from, you know, Black Flag to Circle, jerks minor threat and of course bands like discharge from overseas from england you know and all that

shit was starting to really uh take over my my uh my my soul and uh so i was like you know what i can't play with the fucking stimulants anymore this shit is too poppy it's too like it's happy it's just not it's not where i am and at that point i had already you know the life i was living on the streets and the life that the other band members were living was not really the same. I was just hitting my teens, and as we all know, that's when the problems begin. That's when you start getting in trouble.

So, yeah, and the music that I started writing really reflected the feelings that I was having and you know because of the, not just the environment but just, you know, everything leading up to that point had created this person. Yeah.

And it was a really violent neighborhood. Yeah, it was a really violent neighborhood and I ate a lot of shit for being white and which is ironic because, you know, I'm a quarter Dominican and I'm Cherokee and I'm Chalktoe but if you look at me, especially, you know, in all Puerto Rican neighborhood,

I'm a white boy, you know, so I really ate a lot of shit. I really, you know until I started fighting and actually started getting more I hate to say it but started getting more violent that started to earn me a little bit of respect and I guess the fear and the credibility kind of went hand in hand like when people knew that they couldn't fuck with me I started getting respect and I don't really think that's a really helpful for a young mind to associate popularity with violence and aggression.

Yeah, and I mean, New York at that time, and like you said, and I used to come down to New York sometimes when I was younger, and it was completely different, you know, in the mid-80s. And you were there earlier than that, but for me in the mid-80s, when you'd come down here, it was completely different. I mean, we're sitting here right now in Times Square. Time Square was... That's fucking nuts around.

It was nuts, man. There was like, you take every two steps, somebody would be off and you drugs. You know, I used to come here when I'd cut school and just watch people get pickpocketed. Watch the hookers turning tricks and the guys selling drugs and the people getting into trouble. Yeah, it was madness. It was a fucking free for a lot. It was crazy. And where you were living, you were living, there was straight.

Yeah, it was just gang central. It was way worse. I mean, I was talking to iced tea the other day. We were talking about, you know, some of our experiences. And just in my area alone, I mean, there was about five or six gangs within a, you know, 10, 15 block distance. You know, everything from the hit men on my block who were fucking really out of control to the hells angels on Third Street, who back then were like legitimately no fucking joke. I mean, you know, I can tell you some fucked up stories, but, you know, you know, you. you can tell me

fuck stuff so is this where does that go it goes into you know it's just it's hard to if people go to

New York now it's just completely different yeah it really is man it really is no it's impossible to really get it I mean the best thing

you could do is look at like some old movies that kind of try to capture the and you got some pictures in the book that show the neighborhoods

yeah and you can tell you can tell they look like a war zone yeah I mean I wouldn't No, but they look as close to what it's. They look like a war zone.

You can take it from me on that one. They look like a war zone. I mean, dude, I was living in a squat. We literally had no running water, no windows, no doors. How old were you when you, like, moved out? I left home when I was like 14, you know, because basically I was getting into so much trouble in school that they were about to basically take me from my mother

and put me in, like, Spotford. And I was like, fuck this. you know I had lost interest in school and all that shit it's actually funny something I wanted to tell you when I was 15 actually just right down there there was a recruiting center army Marines Navy Navy the whole bit and I was 15 I tried to enlist in the Marines

you know because like I at that point I was already I was very I guess I had a lot of pent-up aggression you know and I was just like I just want to fucking you know I probably shouldn't say this. It probably sounds bad for the military, but I just wanted to kill. I just wanted to fucking kill, and I wanted to be able to.

Like, I just was so fucking, ah, you know, and it didn't help that my mother was a hippie, so, you know, just it's natural for a teenager to rebel against everything their parents believe in. I mean, I had, like, fucking recruiting, you know, catalogs and shit under my bed, whereas most kids probably had, you know, their playboys and shit.

Like, my mom would find my military recruiting, shit be like, what is this? You know, instead of like holding up the fucking, you know, penthouse, what is this? She's like, I didn't raise my son to be a soldier. Get on her fucking hippie fucking tensions. There's a lot of guys in the military. So, you know, I'm like, fuck this. Through the years, you're 100% right because through the years, there's so many guys in

the military and you meet some guy and you're like, hey, how's it going? You know, you learn their last name at first. But then, you know, you get to know him a little bit and you're like, you know, oh, what's your first name? And they'll be like, oh, my first name is rainbow. You know, my first name is, you know, ocean. And then they go, yeah, my parents were hippies, you know. And so many kids rebelled against their hippie parents.

They're like, I'm going in the Marine Corps. I'm going to the SEAL teams. That's very common. So you're 100% right. It's a good way to rebel. And I even say this, you know, for me, you know, hardcore was a rebellion. Yeah, yeah. And going in the military for me, was a rebellion against the norm, you know,

was everyone's going to a, I'm going to go be a hippie. smoke dope, go to college, get a job. And I was like, no, I'm going to go be a commando and just get after it. Fuck. Yeah, dude. So, you know what? It's fucked up because it's like, had I followed those instincts, you know, I mean,

you know, in some ways my life would have been probably a million times better. I would have had a lot more, you know, discipline. I would have had a lot more focus. I would have had more positive shit, you know, going on. I would have learned some skills and shit, but at the same time, I wouldn't have fucking written age of quarrel. I wouldn't have written best wishes. I wouldn't have influenced people like you to go above and beyond

what the fuck I could ever fucking try to do, you know. So it's like I feel like in my own way, I managed to do my service to, you know, humanity, if you will. You know, although it was a disservice in a lot of ways. because I did inspire a lot of people to do a lot of really fucking wrong shit, you know? But nonetheless, the inspiration that it was real, it was genuine. I think that's why 30 years later,

people still give a fuck about that record. And people are still out making money on that record. And, you know, people still cover songs off that record. And it's funny because I was telling you earlier, I mean, that lineup that played on that record only lasted for one fucking record. You know, it's amazing. how short a period of time. Yeah, yeah.

You know, and it's like, and you know it was something special because still now, 30 years later, people are still talking about it. And not many people can say that based on one fucking album. Yeah. You know, so. That's good shit. I'm just going to go, like we're talking about your neighborhood.

This is just kind of a sample of what you were living around and in. Back to the book. I remember one night lying there hearing some chick down the street. street getting raped. Yeah. And knowing there was really nothing to do. It was like a helpless feeling. You knew that if the cops got called, it wouldn't matter because they probably wouldn't

show up. And if they did, it would be too late and they probably wouldn't find her. One night, my mother's then-boyfriend got the tip of his nose almost shot off by a zip gun. He has a scar to this day. Just because he was white, looked a little freaky, and was walking down our block. I remember coming home one night. and my aunt and my aunt and gustafson the stimulator's basis got jumped by six dudes with golf clubs

and shit trying to pull her guitar out of her hands you don't really think about a group of guys jumping two chicks and a kid but that shit happened they didn't give a fuck you've got to figure a lot of these guys would hang out and huff glue and shit and when you huff glue and you smoke a lot of dust you get pretty grim and lean towards violence yeah so there's your There's your surroundings. There's your environment. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's, I'll tell you, man, it's, it's, it's almost harder to hear it being read back to me now.

Especially in your voice. But, but it's like, you know, it's real. And it brings back a serious emotional response in me, you know. You know, as I was reading that, I was just thinking. to myself because you and I, you know, in the scene, there was always guys that had dogs, right? And pit bulls. Everyone had pit bulls. And as I was reading that, you know, you and I both know, if you take a pit bull and you bring it up and you beat it and you torture it and you hurt it, that dog's going to be a mean, evil bastard. And if that dog's brother can get brought up and get

fed and get taken care of and, you know, sleep and gets treated good and that dog's going to be nice And, you know, I'm just thinking you take a person, a human being, and you put them in an environment where that's what they're living with and that's what they're seeing and that's what's around them, they're going to tend towards that direction. Yeah. And it's going to be hard to break out of that shit. It is, you know.

And it's, you know, look around at the world, man. You know, look at all the, all the fucking ghettos everywhere. Look at all the, you know, all the, you know. A lot of people don't get outside of this country, you know, live here so people don't realize how well they have it and even

you know I used to laugh I was talking to my friend Melly Mel and we were saying I was saying you know I don't even understand what the fuck's up with all that like West Coast gang bang and shit I mean these guys they first of all they don't even have to deal with winter

you know second of all they all got like yards and garages and fucking barbecues and shit. Like we grew up in like apartments with fucking rats and roaches and, you know, concrete everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, what the fuck are you so pissed about that you need to go and shoot at each other and kill each other? You're that fucking bored?

Like, it's just, you know? It is an interesting dynamic here in New York City the way it is. Yeah, it's very intense. I mean even now that it's like, you know, soft as fucking baby shit, it's still intense. Yeah. You know? Like, I just, I feel confined when I'm here, you know, now, now that I've grown up when I come here and I live in California. Yeah, yeah.

And you're right. I got a yard. And I got a barbecue. And my neighbors have yards. And they say, good morning. Yeah. Hey, what's going on? And it's like, it's like.

Like you just do you have space man space is a real thing and animals you know you can't put an animal in little tiny cage to get pissed off And that's what you do with eight million people in New York put them in little tiny cages But they start getting pissed off yeah especially when you know the good majority of them broke as shit Yeah yeah yeah uh but this whole time as you're doing this at the same time you're still you're listening to music you're yeah you're going to shows all the time and like you said The bad brains show up. Yeah, that was a change. That was a game changer. They were as groundbreaking as far as, for me, they, they rocked my world as much, like,

the sex pistols. Like, they, it was like, all of a sudden it was a new chapter. I, uh, you know. The way you wrote, you wrote about the bad brands. So the bad brains, for those you that don't know, is a band from D.C. And they were pivotal in changing music, really a generation of music. And there's all kinds of bands that reference them, like big bands that, reference the bad brains. But here's what you said about the bad brains.

One thing, go ahead. Just for those who don't know, they were not only one of the innovators of what we call hardcore punk, but they were all black. And they were from D.C. And it, you know, there was not many black kids on the scene. There always was black kids on the scene. It was always Puerto Ricans. It was always everybody. You know, we always, it was always mixed diversity on the scene. But they were like the best. They were the tightest. They were the tightest. They were the best. They were the fucking,

they were the shit, man. And a lot of times when people first heard their first 45, just because of the style of the music, people didn't even know they were black. And they'd go see them. They'd be like, oh, shit, these guys are black. Now, that may not seem like a big deal now. We're talking about fucking 1980.

Yeah. You know, and yeah, they were just the fucking, they were the shit, man. And then they got into Rastafarianism, and that, you know, even further made it even more bizarre. A bunch of fucking rosters from D.C. see playing hardcore yeah you know what the fuck is that and playing it better than everybody like fucking smoking motherfuckers yeah yeah you know uh you know I think if you got to see the bad

brains back in the day you're lucky and I mean I remember seeing the bad brains and just being you just just sick I mean it's it'd be like seeing James Brown back when he had Bootsie Collins on base like back in the old like when he was like all over the I always used to like in HR to like James Brown meets Johnny Rotten. Yeah. You know. Here's what you say. Back to the book.

You hear a lot of crazy stories about HR. HR is the singer from the bad brains. Throat in the bad brains. But as crazy as HR can act at times back in the day, he was inspirational beyond belief. He and the bad brains had the entire New York hardcore scene talking like fucking Jamaicans for the longest time. Everybody was like fireburn and blood clot. It was hysterical.

Bands like the mob were so heavily influenced by them that the bass player started growing dreads and wearing a rasta hat. A whole contingent of white rostas started popping up on the hardcore scene. They took things to another level. It was impossible not to be inspired by the bad brains. The only way to describe HR would be like James Brown

meets Johnny Rotten meets Bob Marley. He was such a dynamic front man. HR could do a standing backflip and land right at the end of the song, nail it right at the last beat. It was like, oh my God, did he just plan that? I remember one time at A7, which was a tiny club. Within the first two minutes or so of their show, he had already knocked the sheetrock ceiling out

and bent the mic stand in half. The amount of explosive energy that would come out of that motherfucker, you couldn't help but be blown away, especially since we were all young, and here was this guy that was in shape. He used to be a javelin thrower back in high school. He was always athletic. So you had a bunch of scrawny punk rock motherfuckers,

And then this dude is up there that was an athletic powerhouse going completely apes shit. And he could sing his ass off and he could hit notes. HR came out there with a purpose like he was on a mission. Every show I saw of theirs back then was amazing. I remember I saw him up in Boston one time. And he was like going, there was, I guess like fire pipes or whatever a sprinkler pipes. And he's leaping up and swinging on those things and jumping off into the crowd. It was nuts.

He was a motherfucker, man. Fucker, man. He spent half the show in the crowd. Yeah. Like he was, yeah. You know, you can't. You can't. You just can't even, you know.

Yeah, man. There was something. Everybody has that moment, though, that period where they really, you know. Well, not everybody, but everybody who's like intense, you know, you think about your life. You can think of that one period where you were just on fucking point. You know and they started when I was like 16 and it ended like last week I'm You bud

I Well it didn't last quite that long Some of us But yeah There was a period when they were just fucking untouchable And have you seen HR now Yeah I've seen him over the few Have you actually like seen him talk to him?

I last time I spoke to him and he came out to my house Was probably around 2011 or 2010 and you know he's definitely you know he's he's got some issues yeah he has suffered some seriously he has like mental issues you know i mean i don't know what his diagnosis is i'm not going to stand here and pretend to know but it's you know but you can tell there's a clear change between that guy from back in the day to the guy now there's something that's definitely clearly a psychological difference you know And you can't just blame it all on drugs because, you know, some of us have done plenty of them and are fine.

So, I mean, some, you know, there's something that it's. Yeah. You know, and it's really, it's really sad. You know, they're playing. Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, I mean, and God bless him. You know, I mean, Dr. No, you know, he suffered a stroke and a heart attack and he had to, like, learn how to use his hand again. And everything. I actually did a benefit show us a record that's available.

on pledge music. It's the only place you can get it. You can't even buy it in stores. And 48% of the music goes to help him just help him. Awesome. You know, to whatever he needs help with, you know, because God knows he's... Pledge music?

What do you? Do you search Pledge music? Yeah. Pledge music, Harley Flanagan. And the song will come up. It's the... One of the songs is called Friends Like You. And, um...

But anyway, yeah, I mean, those guys were intense. I mean, it'll never be what it was, you know. I'm glad that they're, you know, doing their thing or you know whatnot but yeah but i think uh my memory of them is from that period yeah yeah and you you probably saw how many times do you see them unlimited to a hundred dozens i have no idea i saw them so many times i saw them out on the west coast and you know excuse me yeah i saw them in tijuana oh really yeah but hr wasn't with them so it was kind of like oh cool yeah yeah but not that's cool no offense the other dude they had other singers who were really

Good dudes. Great dudes, great singers. But it's really hard to follow in someone like that's the footsteps. I mean, it's a rough. That's a rough follow-on shot. So, meanwhile, you did a trip to England. This is the first time you saw skinheads before. Well, I saw skinheads.

I got my head shaved in Ireland. I had seen skinheads one time before in London, but I didn't know what the fuck they were. I was just like, what the fuck? Like, I could tell that there was something, they had an interesting look. like they you know and but the shaved head thing was what got me and uh yeah so i i met skinheads in england in the 70s but i got my head shaved in belfast in 1980 and here's what they told you going back to the book i always remembered what the belfast skins told me teach america about skinheads the first few friends of mine to shave their heads included adam yachts we know that is

from the beastie boys and a few others who weren't really skinheads in the stereotypical thug way They just like the look and the music. I mean, we were all into the early OI-style music. Cockney rejects and bands like that, even though it wasn't really called OI yet. The two-tone thing was happening with all the ska bands jumping off, like the specials and selector and madness. And they were all popular with the skinheads early on. But there still wasn't a skinhead scene in New York, just a few friends of mine who were up on it. But in a couple years, all that would change.

So obviously the typical person that doesn't follow the music scene, at least at a deeper level, when they think skinhead, they immediately think of sort of the branch that went off and got the most press, which was the neo-Nazi skinheads. But the original, the origins of the skinheads is actually black dudes, rude boys, scobans like the specials and madness and that's kind of what you saw and yeah i mean i actually talk about a little bit of that in the book i give a little bit of the historical uh information just to give people a clearer idea um yeah but you know the media always latches on to whatever is most sensationalistic.

You know, they try to always grab the worst aspects of what people are doing. And, you know, yeah, you know, it's, you got it, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll say one more thing. The New York scene had always been more diverse than most hardcore scenes. That always been Spanish kids, black kids, Asian kids. A lot of the early New York hardcore skinheads were Spanish. Yeah.

Roger from Agnostic Front. which if you don't know, Agnostic Front is probably, they might be considered like the, oh, they're definitely one of the biggest sort of skinhead bands from America. And they were absolutely the first real, like, New York skinhead band, you know. I mean, but, yeah, you know. And he's Cuban. He's Cuban.

He's Cuban. You know, I mean. Diego was Puerto Rican, as was Jose from the mob. And so were a lot of skinheads that came around later. Even back in the Max's days, you had the bad brains, pure hell, the influence were one of the first real New York hardcore bands, and they were all black. Yeah, I think where you just pulled up,

I was just talking about the diversity on the scene in New York. New York has always been different from other places as, you know, you know, that's one of the things that's cool about it here. I could say, you could say it's fairly diverse here in New York City. Yeah, fuck. You know. This has got to be one of the most, I bet you this, I don't know, you have to look at this, but is New York City one of the most diverse places on the planet?

It's got to be. different languages being spoken. I mean, one thing I noticed that, you know, you can eat any type of food here. Yeah. You know, so it's cooked by the people that invented that food. So, I mean, we had that moved here like three weeks ago. That's one thing I always loved about it here.

You know. We just had gangnam style, uh, uh, dumplings. Dumplings. Yeah. Dumplings and sushi served by, by gangnam style. The actual guy. Oh, oh. Oh.

And. Meanwhile, you know, at this time, back to the book, I was drinking a lot, huffing glue, taking pills, and lots of LSD, and whatever else. So this whole time, that's what's just prevalent in the scene. Yeah. Drugs. Yeah, New York was very much our scene liked to get fucked up. In D.C., where they invented straight edge, you know,

they were all about being clean and sober. And God bless them. And, you know, that caught on like wildfire in other places, you know, the straight-edge movement spread and whatnot. And we always went the extreme opposite. We were like, you know, they had a song, don't drink, don't smoke, don't fuck. We used to sing, you know, we drink, we smoke, we fuck, fuck you. You know, and yeah, we're a bunch of fucking idiots.

You know, I mean, you know, unfortunately. you know at that point in my life and in the hardcore scene it was often cool how fucked up you could be you know and I'm sure it's that

that way in a lot of the world and a lot of youth culture and a lot of you know crews and gang culture and you know I don't mean to theorize but I'm going to do it a little bit and philosophize a little bit you know like cultures

back in the day or some cultures even today when you want to prove that you are will sacrifice yourself for the tribe a little bit like I'll go hunt that lion or I'll go out and do something that's hard and I'll take risks for the group and I'll prove that I don't care what happens to me Yeah I should have been replaced Sometimes I think that hey I'm going to prove that I don't care what's happened to me

Watch me drink this watch me shoot this watch me smoke this and whatever No I agree I think that that instinct that's still in us doesn't have a place to be used properly and I'll tell you where I got that philosophy from in the SEAL teams man when I came in

it was like the way that you kind proved that you were tough was drinking and fighting right drinking and fighting you take everything to a fucking extreme if you fucking drink five I'll drink 10 you fought two motherfuckers I'll fight fucking five motherfuckers and that's what it

was and when the worst started it's not like that stopped because that stuff still goes on but it definitely in my mind it in my mind i was thinking and we still drank and we still partied and got after it but it was different man it was different to all of a sudden be saying hey look you know what i need to prove myself is on the battlefield i need to be ready for that and so i i when i apply that to like all of society it seems like a young kid like you who's 15 16 years old how do you prove that you're tough How do you prove your manhood? Oh, you think you can drink 12 shots?

I'll drink 20. Exactly. Bring it. And that's a jack-up thing. Yeah. And, you know, you talked about like the straight-edge movement. And those guys, it's interesting. Well, they took it to another level too.

They stopped fucking. They even do they stop drinking, smoking and fucking. And then how did they prove, how did they then prove that they were tough? They would go out and fight and beat up people that were drunk and shit like that. Well, that's what started happening in some scenes. Yeah. Because, like, in D.C., those guys were always. they always tried to be more PC

they always had a little bit more consciousness but in a lot of other places you had bands like you know I got I got in trouble with Ian McKay at uh remember when Fugazi came on the scene

so Fugazi one of my buddies from D.C this is back in the day and one of those guys one of my buddies from one of my buddies from D.C he sent me a demo tape and he's like hey this is this is Ian's new band and you're called Fugazi no I was like cool

And that's a great album. Actually, I like, yeah. Oh, it's a great album. And so we went and saw him in Brooklyn. Me and my boys, we went down to Brooklyn to see him. And we went berserk. And he wasn't feeling it. And he was like, and he had like longer curly hair.

And he's standing there. And he played, like, they played their first song and we just cleared out the pit and destroying everything. And he was not in here. He was like, um, hey, I'm just trying to think of what he says. So he knows I'm not bullshit. If he ever hears this. He said something along the lines of like, let's leave our, let's leave our, let's our machoism and our egos at the door you know if you're gonna dance be cool or something like

that and so then i was like dude what do i do now like your music rocks i want to break stuff and i couldn't so yeah i remember when he started going that route and you know what god bless him no man you said here you got a lot of respect to that guy i do too and he is fucking cool as he and he has always had his integrity and as he as he matured you know his his way of thinking. Yeah, and you know what? You got to respect. I mean, he held a line with what he did.

Fuck out. He never sold out. You know what? Hats off. For sure. He's fucking legit, man. For sure. I got nothing but respect for him.

Now, at this time. I did used to break his balls fucking relentlessly though. But that's just the way I am. If I, if I like someone and respect him, chances are I'm going to really fuck with them whenever I have the opportunity. You know, so. Yeah. So fuck you.

Yeah. at that time you you kind of came up with the name of the cromag. You came up with the cromag's name and you started like tagging everything with cromags, writing it everywhere. And you just, you had a kick-ass band. It was like when we talked about my first

hardcore band called Bronson's Children, first thing we did no music, but we made T-shirts. Yeah, no, you got to. We're thinking merchandise. So, you know, that's what we did. And you were doing the same thing. Yeah, the only difference is you could actually play music,

and I was just an idiot. Let me see where we're going with this one. So you started coming, putting together the band, and then things started getting a little bit crazy. You beat someone up who's some friend of someone else, and all of a sudden you heard that you had like a price on your head. That was actually before the Chrome eggs really, It was the, yeah, it's pre-crumbs.

It's like you made up the name, but you were nothing. Yeah, that's actually why I wound up heading out to California. I had to take a little break from my neighborhood. Yeah, it was pretty intense, man. This dude, there was a gang on my block called The Hitman. And this is back, you know, I remember them from the 70s through the 80s. I mean, this is when they still used to wear colors, you know, patches on there. In fact, the Puerto Rican gangs looked more like bikers, like Puerto Rican bikers,

without bikes back then. Like they all had like patches and jeans and like MC boots and you know they'd wear like the F true pads and it was total old school you know like you know wolf tails and shit

you know like the fur collars this is like ridiculous shit if you look on old YouTube and old photos of New York gangs they'd be like oh okay that's what he's talking about anyway yeah these guys were fucking they were no joke and they one of the hit men was Pigman

and he you know they did hits they weren't called the hit men, you know, because they, you know, wrote hit songs. You know, they, you know, besides selling heroin, they did hits. And, uh, pig man I'd known about him my whole childhood. He was like a lower east side myth. Like, you know, everybody had heard of him, but no one knew, you know, because if you saw him, that was most likely the last thing you saw, you know.

But he would wear a pig's mask. That's why he was called pig man. And he would pull up in his balloon over. and fucking blast you with a shotgun. And it was that simple. And they actually kicked in a friend of mine's door and put shoties in people's mouths and guns to their heads.

Where it's Harley in one of the skinhead apartments looking for me? And they came to my squat and pulled someone into a corner and put knives to their throats, which apartment's Harley in. And Pigman was cruising by my friends with the mask on

and didn't see me, so kept driving. in, I guess. So it was real. And I'm like, I was like, fucking 15. You know what I mean? I'm 15. I got fucking pig man looking for me. I mean, that's fucking no joke. This is pig man.

Mother fuck, you know? Pig man. And I'm like telling the locals on my block, I'm like, shit, man. My mother lives on 12th Street. You know, what the fuck? I know. What about her? Don't worry about your mom. Everybody loves your mom. This is not personal, man.

There's money on, you know, it's business. But you should get out of here, man. You should hang low. These were your Puerto Rican brothers telling you this. Yeah, like the guys from the block. There's people who knew me from school, like people like, you know, my friend's uncles and shit like that. You know, like, dude, you should get the fuck out of here. So I'm like, you know what, I think I will.

Yeah. And that's just, that's because you beat somebody up. Yeah, I used to, I used to get in a lot of fights and I used to also, you know, yeah, I beat someone up. And it turned out he was, it was this guy who was, uh, one of the, you know, one of the guys who was, uh, one of the guys who was a owner of one of the after-hours clubs on the Lower East Side. And a lot of these after-hours clubs, like, you know, save the robots and the pyramid and all these other places.

They had, like, they were the late-night freak clubs where everybody would go, like, until six in the morning, and they would all be doing blow and doing Coke. So I guess that's how they knew the hitmen because they all used to, all the club freaks used to buy all their drugs from the Puerto Ricans in the neighborhood. So we were kind of fucking up their business, too, because we were, like, fucking up all the new freaks.

that were starting to come to the Lower East Side, all the new white people that we were like, you know, fuck, we just made this motherfucking neighborhood safe. Now you motherfuckers all think you just, gangbusters, like you're all just to flood this fucking, fuck this, it's our neighborhood now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I was an asshole.

I mean, I have to admit that, you know, looking back, if you're ever going to man up, you have to be able to say, yes, I was an asshole, you know. But that shit, yeah, Pigman was no joke. And I went to California. shit died off. I came back. Dude, you went to California, and I was reading that part of the book, and I was like,

what in God's name is going on? Yeah. Dude, talk about the vats. Yeah, man. We were living in an abandoned brewery. There was, you know, a couple hundred kids living there, probably. We were all living in the actual vats

that they used to have, the, like, rubber-coated square rooms, like with a manhole to get in and out of, and, you know, we were living in the air vents, and And yeah, it was fucking crazy, man. And everybody was fucked up on drugs. Everybody was a runaway. Everybody was, you know, it was,

what amazes me about the 80s is the lawlessness, you know, in New York and in San Francisco, you know. Like, you could really get away with just about fucking anything. And there would be like no police involvement, no repercussion, you know. I mean, you'd get into a fight. and the shit could go on for half a fucking hour, like from one area to another and back and forth, you know,

gun full fight. Yeah, like, I mean, you'd fucking start fighting on Avenue A. You'd end up on First Avenue over on 7th Street, then back over to 8th Street and back down Avenue A. And it's like mad screaming and, you know, stabbings and bottles breaking in. No cops, you know? It was like, you know.

I mean, shit happens now, man. You fart too fucking loud on the street here. You get arrested. It's like I just So how are you're 15 years old You're living in a in a in a fat Yeah

In San Francisco with a bunch of everyone's Runaways drugs Everybody's crystal meth Fucking shooting crystal Left right front center Dropping liquid acid in their eyeballs Yeah God

How's that even like How do you process that And the other weird thing is Is like You're surviving like you know you're you're you're getting food somehow right you're stealing food shoplifting and panhandling and mugging people you know yeah figuring it out figuring it out and that's what everyone in this vat these vats are doing yeah well I mean there was only a couple of

us that were out mugging people because there was only like me and mark dagger and a couple other people who were like hard asses everybody else was either out panhandling or turning tricks you know it was like you you you know you were either out mugging someone, sucking a dick, or begging for change, you know. And did you just think, like, okay, this is what life is like? Yeah, that's what life was like. You know, I mean, I remember, like, eating at soup kitchens, you know, with, like, adults, and I'm, like, 15, and that being weird and, like, almost getting into fights with, like,

dudes who were, like, ex-cons and, you know, like, dudes who had just got out of prison who were, Like to them, they were still in the prison lunchroom, you know. And to me, I'm just like trying to, you know, get some food, you know. And yeah, it was pretty intense, you know. I mean, but to be fair, I had a great fucking time, you know. I mean, I had a lot of fun, you know, the debauchery, the violence, the drugs. I had a fucking blast. Would I recommend any of it?

No. Would I wish it on my kids or my worst enemies? No. did I have a great time? Yes. You know. How I fucking made it, I don't know. But, you know.

I guess is that like when people talk about, well, when people say to me, oh, I think this is the same thing because I'm sitting here going, how can that be fun? But I guess because, yeah. No, dude. People ask me about like being. No, think about the most intense situations you've been in. It's like the adrenaline, the fucking, ah. Like, dude, the last time I got in like a real fucking crate. No, not the last time.

the third or fourth to last time I got in a really bad violent situation like the one it's in the book when I got had like that I fucked up this dude who was in a gang and the next thing I know I got like 30 dudes fucking coming after me with pipes, bats

bopas smashing out our windows and I'm running into the crowd of them to save a friend of mine now see like dude I was fucking like high for like a week off of the adrenaline and then when I finally came down I was like whoa

What the fuck was that, man? I could have died, you know? But like for literally a week after that shit, I was just like, yeah! Like, fucking bring it! You know, and, you know, that's like, but that's the difference between certain type of people. Like, you know, I will run into a fucking violence to save a friend. Yeah. And a lot of fucking people that I grew up with will fucking punk out.

I've seen people that I respected fucking run and leave their friends behind and it's some real pussy shit especially when they're trying to be all badass skinhead tattoos and this I'm this I'm that

you ain't nothing but a bitch you know and hey man and you know and that's one reason why I'm really fucking proud to be here you know because it's like you guys one of the

things I respect the most is someone who will put themselves on the line for someone else. Like when you will put your own life at risk for another person, there's nothing more admirable than that. So hats off to you guys and to all the military out there, you know, serving this country and serving their brothers, their sisters, their families, and everybody, you know,

hats off, man, it takes a lot of fucking balls. I respect. And I'm not, you know, even law enforcement, you know, and I'm not a big fan of the police in many circles. I've become friends with a lot of cops since I started doing jujitsu. Jiu jitsu changes a lot of things for the positive. But, however, you know, I still have my reservations. But I respect, again, anybody who is willing to put their life on the line for others and for the greater good, you know, and there's really nothing higher. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Well, like, obviously I work with the police and they're the same way, man. They're, they're, and they got a, they got one of the hardest jobs in the whole world.

No, no, look, I say that with, you know, a little tongue and cheek, you know, I mean, it's like I've grown up always being on the shitty end of the stick when it comes to the cops. And, you know, still to this day, even like when I'm trying to get something achieved and accomplished and I try to go to them for guidance, they still look at me like they want to slap the cuffs on me more than fucking help me out, you know. So, you know, but, you know, I'm going to make you some friends. We're going to make you some friends. But I do understand, you know, what they deal with on a regular basis. So I get it. But I also think that a lot of people are attracted towards lines of work that give them a position where they can abuse their position, you know. I think that happens with some people.

That's in human race, though. I mean, it's not. But it's like, go do a ride along with some cops, man. It is. It is. I couldn't do it, man. Like cops is just they What they deal with on a day to day basis

What it does to their brain No I hear you and it looks You know hard ass job It's a hard ass job I mean it's like there's a certain level of You know once you've seen some some shit You're always On that edge

Yeah you know and That fight that fight or flight You know and unfortunately they don't have the choice They have no choice to deal with it They got a fight So they got to do it And they got to protect, you know, of course, you see, oh, we always see the negative thing of cops beat someone down. But they're trying to work within certain guidelines.

And that makes shit even harder. And that makes shit even harder. They're going, no, hey, sir, please put the bat down, put the knife down. That's what they're doing 99%. It sucks. You know, it sucks. It's a hard-ass job. Hard-ass job.

But, you know, again, I got, you know, I also got to play, I got to keep my one foot grounded in the streets. I still have my, you know. you were uh yeah you're conditioned yes from your childhood yeah that the man you were you were on the other side you're on the other side man exactly you were on the other side and so now that's how you're conditioned us we get us just just like when they when they see you well i don't know if they see see you now well you know yeah things are a little different now but you know yeah hey you know what the fuck you're gonna do well i'll tell you what i do When the cops tell you do something?

Oh, I'd do it. I don't fuck around. I'm like, look, officer, no problem. No problem. That's how you make friends, man. I see my stupid fucking friends were like, yo, fuck that, blah, blah, blah. He's like, what fuck is wrong with you? All you had to do is say, yes, sir.

How fucking difficult is that? You know, motherfucker. You're that stupid? Yeah. Man, we haven't even gotten to, like, the Chromeags yet, have we? Who? The Chromeax. Oh, yeah.

Like, put together the first hour. You know what I mean? Yeah. Shit. So you guys finally get together. Here we go. Back to the book. It's been three years since Paris and you.

So Paris, the guy was... He was the guitarist from the Cromags. Hooked up and started writing November 2nd, 1984. And on February 16th, 1985, the Cromagx went into high five studios on 27th Street and Park Avenue and recorded 12 songs. The Age of Coral Cassette, which is released on CD. called Before the Quarle. Yeah, that was the original version of the album

before we actually went and recorded the album, Age of Quarle. So that's 84. Yeah. That that's going down. Yes. And that's a good recording. I have that one too.

I actually like it a lot better than the album. I was telling you before. I can't tell if I... The other one's so ingrained in my head that I expect little things that aren't there. And so I like the first one better because I think it's just more raw.

It is more raw. You know, it's more explosive. I think it's more true to what we actually sounded like when we played live, you know. Yeah. The other thing, the other one had, you know, a lot of production shit that I wasn't too happy about. But, yeah, you know. So now this is where, now you think the story has been crazy so far, Echo? I'll just throw you under the bus right now.

The story's being crazy. Now it goes, just takes another kind of, what I consider this an even more bizarre turn than everything we've talked about so far. So going back to the book I was into vegetarianism But it took me a while to get into Krishna At first John This is the singer from the Cromags or one of the singers that sang to cromags John and me used to go to the trucks where they served free food in Tompkins Square Park

Which was a big hangout back in the day Everyone used to go there and hang out A lot of hardcore kids did I mean I was living in a squat I was vegetarian I had no money and here was free vegetarian food. They also had a few preaching centers on the west side that me and John used to go to, to eat,

but still it took a while to give a fuck about what they were saying. I was there for the free food. I wasn't looking for religion. I was just hungry and trying to survive. We would always show up late. John would tell us when the good time was just to get the food after the reading and preaching and everything. But over time, I really started getting into the philosophy.

In the beginning, people didn't take John and Krishna seriously. it was kind of something the hardcore scene laughed at. But as my friends and me started getting into Krishna, it started to change. So you guys started getting into Hari Krishna. Yeah. Yes. Which. It's pretty funny looking back now.

Tell me the fundamental philosophies. I mean, obviously, Hari Krishna's are vegetarians because they don't want to like hurt, you know, animals. Actually, it's more to it than that. That's actually not why it's because now I'm going to start fucking. talking all their shit. Well, give me a little bit of understanding. They only eat food that are offerable to God, and you can't offer God a rotting carcass to eat.

Okay. There's nothing that has to do with, like, hey, we don't want to hurt things? Oh, there's all this karmic stuff. You know, everybody likes to, you know, not make more karma for themselves good or bad. See, that's what I'm saying. Like, this is why it gets more bizarre to me.

Yeah, no, it definitely gets to create more karma for yourself. See, that's the thing is with the amount of karma I had already hated it. I was trying. But this is where it gets even more fucked up and twisted because you got me and my friends who were like recovering skinheads for lack of a better way of putting it. You know, dudes who used to go out and getting like, you know, 20 fights in a night, you know, put 19 people in ICU just because, you know, just walking from the east side to the west side. What you look at? You know, fuck you. All night.

Just fucking wild. And, you know, and then all that shit with pig man and this and that. And God knows how many other things. you know how many bodies I found and came across and you know how many how much madness I had it experienced you know like we were talking about you know it's like sometimes you know when you're dealing with life and death on a regular basis you know sometimes you're like you know God you start calling out to God you don't even know what the fuck God is and you're just like God help me God you know please you know guide me help it's this the call of

of desperation, you know? And I had never been into Christianity and this and that. I just, it all just sounded like a bunch of bullshit to me. And here I was actually hearing some things that made some sort of sense to my teenage mind, you know, karma, ooh, you know, all these other things that were like resonating with me, you know, and it's like I needed that shit, you know, I needed some sort of guidance and had I not had something like that. I mean, it could have been fucking Buddha.

It could have been whatever, you know. But I needed something that was greater than... You needed some kind of guidance in your life, right? I needed guidance. Some kind of discipline. I needed hope. Oh, hope, yeah. You know?

And when I started going out to their farm for a little while, like they were getting up, we were getting up at like 5.30 in the morning and meditating and watching the sun come up. And like, it was like this whole... you know it going from like being like hunted by the gangs in my neighborhood to that it was just like I can't even really explain it it really it was like I don't know how to fucking put it man it was just like it was like here I am at peace like yeah I was gonna say it sounds like peace for the first time like wow you know so that but then the more I was involved in it the more I seen you know that people in religions in general are are typically

Typically a bunch of fucking hypocrites. You know, you get a lot of people preaching a lot of shit that they don't all fucking follow. And all rules don't really fit all people. You know, every human is different. And not everybody can follow the same guidelines. And when do things start becoming just belief? What the fuck is belief anyway? It's just what you choose to believe, you know, unless it's like this is real.

you know this is really cutting my face that's really blood this is you know I really have to eat food and breathe air belief is just that you know and I know I still have you know my spiritual inclinations I still believe in some sort of I don't like to say the word God anymore because I don't I don't have that overview that I know any fucking thing I just know uh I know I got a lot of love in my heart for the people I care about, and I know I want to try to do good things, you know, I've done enough bad things. I'd like to try to prevent some people from experiencing what I experienced,

and at the same time I would like to share the great experiences that I had with people, you know. Yeah. Well, one of the great experiences, and one of the things the great things that you shared to people is that that album that that album and we'll go to here going back the book the age of quarrel some would call it one of the most if not the most influential new york hardcore and crossover albums it was recorded and mixed in under 100 hours over a 14 day period january february 1986 at east side sound by steve remote and chris williamson our manager and so-called producer but it was really steved so

Six comes around and you guys put together the age of coral. Yeah. This is the one that got released on a bigger scale. Yeah, it was like the first hard. Is that profile? Yeah, it was probably one of the first hardcore records to ever be put out on a real major label, like something that wasn't like Discord or slash records or something underground. Yeah.

And now this is, you guys are, you guys are starting to get a big draw. I mean, huge draws outside of New York. Yeah, we were starting to tour at this point and doing, you know, our first big break was touring with Motorhead. And then we got, you know, we went on to play with many other metal bands around that time. The whole crossover thing started happening. Yeah, for those of you that don't know,

crossover when he's talking about that, that's the crossover from hardcore to metal and kind of combining the two of them. It was really when the metalhead started discovering hardware, When people like Metallica started wearing GBA8 shirts and coming to see the chrome eggs. Yeah. When people like anthrax started daring to come to CBGBs. You know, and that's really... But the hardcore band started getting more metallic, too.

Well, yeah, because like metalheads started shaving their heads and getting into hardcore. Like yourself, like kids, you had been listening to Van Halen when they were little who started getting into... But hardcore band started getting more metallic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. We definitely.

Yeah. I mean, you did? Agnostic front. Yeah, no, a lot of people tried to jump ship, you know. I guess, you know, I don't, I say that kind of jokingly, but I guess, you know, it seemed like there was more opportunity to actually make a living. Bigger audience. You know, actual record deals, you know. Pantera.

Pantera, fucking great band. Because Pantera. I mean, one of my favorite bands probably, you know, Dimebag, fucking love that dude. one of the worst tragedies imaginable to music is motherfucker got shot on stage by a fucking psychotic fan I mean it's like you know what the fuck man yeah that was awful you know yeah it's uh yeah I mean not to not to talk about not to get into you know the whole Cromag beef and this and that but like one thing I will say is you know

it really bothers me that dime bag died like that and that they never because I know they would have buried the hatchet by now and they would have done an amazing reunion tour and they would have just kicked their shit out of everybody and they'll never have that opportunity now because he was robbed from us

and to know that my band are such a bunch of stubborn, immature fucking old assholes that we could never actually embrace each other purely based on what we did achieve together and

how many fans would be so happy. You know, because once you're gone, you're gone. And, you know, it's very rare that four or five people will have that chemistry for a moment in life.

So, you know, just based on that alone, it's pretty fucking sad and pathetic, you know. Yeah. And it's a weird run that you had because you guys you guys you guys you guys were on the verge yeah I mean yeah and and when I you know when I remember you guys touring and I didn't see you on the age of choral tour because that was a really fast tour and you went to Europe and I just didn't have the opportunity to see you but I saw you on the best wishes tour which was the next

album that came out and you guys were big I mean you guys were in it for just to kind of put it in perspective for people like I think the places where I saw you play And this is kind of a national brand is the House of Blues. If you've ever been to a House of Blues, I saw you at a place that was like as big as the House of Blues. I used to play there a lot.

Okay, I didn't know you actually played there, but like that kind of venue. So that's, in my mind, you know, that's a legit band. That's a decent venue. Yeah, I mean, when you're playing places that size, you can make a living and you, and if you keep going and stay consistent,

you know, you can do fairly well for yourself. Now, this is the, so, you know, age of choral comes out. You guys are popular. You toured Europe. You know, you're getting after it. You're filling up places. Best wishes.

You're filling stuff. You're headlining best wishes. But you're playing with Motorhead too before. Yeah. You're supposed to play with Black Sabbath one time. Yeah. By the way, that would actually be the ultimate show of all time for me. I have to fucking agree for me.

Because my favorite band of all time. Us and Motorhead would just knock it the fuck out. That would be epic. But Black Sabbath didn't show up, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, that, that, and you have the flyer alone. You have the flyer in the book, dude. You have the flyer in the book. That's awesome. Dude, you know, I made it on a flyer with Black Sabbath and motorhead. You're good. You can die now. But here's the crazy thing.

As I was reading the book, I couldn't believe this. You come home from those tours. Yeah, man. And you have no money. Yeah. Yeah. And you hear this. This is kind of like a rock and roll myth, right?

Oh, the guy signs the contract. the producer. And I've watched a bunch of programs about this. And what the record companies do is they say, hey, look, we're going to give you $100,000 advance for your next album. And then you go awesome. So they give you $100,000 and you start spending it. And then they backcharge you for your studio time and the promotion.

Next thing you know, literally, at the end, you haven't even gone on Twitter. You owe them $28,000. You're working to pay it off. Yeah, they lent you this money with interest. And so that's the kind of shit that was happening with you. And you come back off these tours. You're famous. Because also at this time, now that I think about it, you and the Chrome magazine,

you guys were like on the cover of like the metal magazines and stuff. All those stupid metal magazines, man. You'd turn, there'd be like Skid Row on one page and us on the next. And you're like, what the fuck? Ozzy on one page, me on the next. Yeah. So you were there. I mean, you were on the cusp.

We were right about to break it, you know. And you were still broke. Still you would come home from those tours and still be living on the streets I would I would be coming off those tours and trying to figure out where I was staying Or I'd be showing up at my grandmother's house You know, or I'd be like you know yeah, we got pretty fucked man, but you know You don't know what you don't know you know So it's like when you're a kid and you ain't got no guidance Nobody looking out for you you know you make a lot of mistakes yeah and also back then that

They had a much better monopoly. They're like to make a company. And here, nowadays, you can say, oh, you know what? I'll just make my own record. And I'll be able to distribute it through YouTube and social media and all this other stuff. You know, that would have been helpful in those days as far as, you know. But, you know, I think that the internet and everything is also really kind of fucked music up because it's like people don't have to have any lineage or any connection to their roots anymore.

It's like people who don't know anything can just Google it. and cut it and paste it and call it their own and the next thing you know they're an artist and it's like no you're not a fucking artist you're a fucking cut and paste motherfucker who hasn't ever actually experienced a fucking thing and you don't even know the history of what you're imitating you just know that you're into it right now

so you're imitating it right now the other crazy thing is you know it was hard to get like these records when I was a kid yeah you had to know you couldn't order them you had to like get somebody that was going to go to New York and hey if they have

this album can you pick it up we go to bleakrabbs and yeah yeah and it was like that you couldn't just but nowadays you can if you say oh the cromags are cool because i heard a song you put them into google you get chrome mags you get every other band that's been related to them you get bounds sand like them and you can just download them all immediately and it's no factor it's kind of crazy that's why for me like you know how many record total record albums i had and i loved music i probably had like 80 records right 80 records on my computer right now on my phone i probably got 10 000 records no care i got all kinds of songs right every band that's ever existed i got them on my phone and you you would shit if you saw my fucking i bet you have a stupid sick one huh would shit you would

fucking be like like a kid in the candy store man you fucking because i got everything from back then i got it I got like motorhead test pressings I got like you're one of those guys that goes out and gets test presses I was watching

some video with Rollins because you know Rollins has Yeah no dude he has my first single He bought it from me I think he He might have One of the most epic record collections

Some of the stuff that he And he likes weird stuff Yeah He likes stuff that like I wouldn't want it But he's got you know First pressings

Test pressing He's a freak Yeah He's a freak And he's got money too Yeah he's a good dude Yeah, yeah. You end up trying to

sue a little bit. I think you tried to sue the record company or something, and you end up just going into legal costs. What we were trying to happen was we were trying desperately to get off of our record label and get away from our management

because we got to a certain point where we were just on the verge of blowing up and profile was still treating us like chumped. You know, we weren't getting no money, we weren't getting anything, we were getting treated like fucking dog shit. And, um, someone who was working at Electra

was interested in signing us so we were like Electra Metallica here's our fucking shot so we like Because profile was like all metalish right? No profile was actually a hip hop label So what they did with us was really kind of Out there out there because they had You know their big band

Isn't it like Century Media slash? That came after no No profile was big for Run DMC That was who there and then like Rob Bass It Takes two It Takes two that was like their That was their hits.

Run DMC was their main shit. Speaking of crossover, Run DMC. Yeah. They brought the metal, the riffs. Yeah, I mean, you know, they've, those guys were great, man. For sure. I saw them play many times back in the day. I remember seeing them with the Beastie Boys at the Garden and that.

That was a fucking great show. It's fun, man. It's like all the Beastie Boys brought all like the little white kids and Run DMC by all the black kids and the black kids were just walking around robbing all the white kids. They're fucking laughing my fucking dick off, like watching people just get yoked in the fucking aisles. I'm like, this shit is hilarious. It was funny.

Oh, damn. So you were trying to get off that label. Yeah. And trying to get onto Elektra. Damn, because Electra was huge. Yeah, yeah. That would have been a good move for us. But Profile didn't like us.

And they would have rather taken, you know, you couldn't offer them enough money to give us our freedom. They were like, fuck these. Damn. Yeah, we had some issues with some of the head people there. And then you end up, so with alpha omega. Yeah.

And by the way, I didn't say this, but you sang on best wishes. Yeah, I sang on like half the albums, more or less, you know. And then me and John both sang on Alpha Omega. And I got to read this from the book because I got a kick out of it. Oh, boy. Here we go.

Back to the book. You know how you can always tell when a heavy band is starting to lose their edge when they start using a fucking keyboard? Yeah, we did that. All right, to be fair, I was eating a lot of mushrooms at that recording session. So, like, things sounded a little bit different to me,

and they were sounding, the keyboard sounded cool, man. I was eating all the kinds of mushrooms and drinking mushroom tea, and I was like, yeah, Yeah, that shit sounds cool. Yeah, roll with that, you know. But see, at least I can look back and laugh at myself. You know, it's like if you can't fucking laugh at yourself, man, you're an asshole. And some other, I think I might have breezed through it, but there's another point where you're talking about how spinal tapish, like all this.

And even that's spinal tapish, right? When you started venturing out. Oh, shit. Yeah. Stonehenge. Yeah. Yeah. So.

And do you want to hear so really fucking. funny. I mean, me and Doug watched Spinal Tap with John one time just to show you a little bit about his intellect. All right, we're watching about halfway through that movie. John turns to me and Doug goes, Yo, man,

these guys suck. I've never even heard of them. Why did they make a movie about them? Me and Doug just look at each other like, this motherfucker thinks this is a real documentary. Oh my fucking. Anyway, sorry, I had to. Hey, you know what?

I've seen Spinal Tap Twice. Live. Oh, I saw them once. Yeah, yeah. I have a spinal tap lighter. Yeah, that's what's up.

I brought my wife. And you know, when they play big bottoms, you know, they're all play bass. Yeah, the whole band gets out bases. Yeah,

that's why it's such a fucking brilliant movie. No, but I remember like being in those clubs where you're trying to find the stage, you're walking around. You're like,

all right, Cleveland. All right, Cleveland. You're like, fucking walking around. wind up outside the club. You're like, where the fuck I was the major? Yeah. Now, you're still, man, you're still struggling.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I struggled up until pretty much not that long ago. Until two weeks ago, like I said. You wrote here, before I get into this next chapter, I'm telling you that I had to lose a lot of stuff from this era because I have kids now and I don't want them to know exactly how insane things got or to think I'm a worse piece of shit than they already will or do.

But again, this is proof that you can plummet to the bottom of the worst depths of hell and still come back and try to become a better person. There was enough filth, drugs, orgies, violence, and crime during this period to write a book about nothing else. As insane as it was and as much fun as I thought I was having, deep down I was looking for a way out. I think that's why I took everything to such an extreme

I don't think I cared if I lived. There were times I don't think I wanted to. I'm not proud looking back on it now. If anything, I'm surprised I survived. Heavy. It's fucked up here and you read that shit, bro. Like, it makes me go up. But yeah, man, it's true.

You know, I've seen some of my friends that they start to, I think, get the same outlook. They start doing shit that is not high survival rate activities. And it's like they're walking that line of, you know. Well, it's kind of like you want to die, but you're not going to take the pussy route and kill yourself. So you're just going to do everything you can to kill yourself without actually putting a rope around your neck.

So instead of putting a rope around your neck, you put a rope around your arm and stick a fucking needle in it or, you know, smoke, dust until the world is just a fucking illusion, you know. I'm going to read this right here. Because this is, you know, here you go back to the book. At one point, I was broke as shit. This is after you have three albums signed by a major record contract, toured all over the world, played with Motorhead,

On tour. Here we go back to the book. At one point, I was broke as shit, and I got busted shoplifting food at a supermarket. I didn't have any ID. So the kids I was with ran back to the house and came back with three of my CD covers as ID. I was sitting in this holding area in the back of the store. And the store cops were looking at me all confused. They were like, this is your ID.

I was holding up pictures from the age of coral best wishes in Alpha Omega. And I was like, see, look at the picture and look at my tattoos. This is me. They were like, you're kidding, right? This is all the ID you got. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't even have a fuck. I had no ID.

I had nothing, dude. You know what else? I just realized that I completely breezed over? It's like I'm saying that you had this record and you had this record. You're also a sick bassist. I mean, like an unbelievable bassist, you know? Like, so you had this incredible musical town.

And you played drums too, but I mean, your bass playing is savage. I'm actually a better drummer. But that's... Well, that's good. But your base playing is sick. So you had all this talent. Yeah. And you had records and you had fans and you had all the shit.

And you're still down in the dirt, man. Shoplifting to eat. Shoplifting to eat. Fucking smoking ice. Damn, dude. Hey, man, you know, it could have been worse, man. I mean, look at fucking people like Jacques Hope Astoria. I mean, that motherfucker was like the most.

Best bassist ever. Yeah, like the. And Jimmy Hendricks, you know, he was the Jimmy Hendrix of base. and look at Jimmy and him and it's like you know you can have all that talent and if you're you know if you're suffering on the inside man you know I mean fucking jaco there's another tragedy motherfucker got beat to death by a bouncer you know who didn't know who he was this is not this jaco this is jaco to bassist he uh he actually got tried to get up on stage at a centana show because he was friends with centana and he tried to get up on the stage and he was

so fucking messy at the time that nobody could recognize him and the bouncers threw him out and he kept being belligerent and they beat him to death you know so it's like you can have all the talent in the world but you know it's it's sad because really the people who have that gift usually are people who are really emotionally well that's why they have that gift because they're so fucking emotional you know i think yeah no that definitely and and that can really become destructive if you don't have a positive place like if you're really the only times in my life where I haven't been all fucked up on drugs was when I had something

constructive to do something that gave me a purpose and when you have that creative emotional self-destructive thing in you because it really can become self-destructive if you don't have a place to put it

I mean shit man if you wouldn't have fucking gone into the military God knows what the fuck you would have done with that intensity yeah no the military I've talked about this before I mean it's like it's a beautiful It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing for me. Yeah, I mean, it probably would have been for me, too. I just wound up.

But, you know, instead, I wound up being the soundtrack to your... Yeah, but a lot of fighters, you know, a lot of UFC fighters and stuff, and a lot of those guys have a rough time, you know? Absolutely. Because... It's hard to be that type of an intense person and to go to such extreme emotional dumps. Because, you know, one second, you're just a tough guy on the... street the next second you're a tough guy in front of fucking thousands of people and there's lights flashing

everywhere you know and then you know and then some people it's like your career's done and you're still that tough guy who still will fuck shit up but nobody gives a fuck and now if you fuck somebody up you're going to fucking jail you know and it's like you know and drugs become an easy way to deal with fame and the confusion

of popularity and the depression it's a heavy thing to go go from to the silence of your room and your mind. There's a buddy mine plays in a band called Slightly Stupid. And they're actually a big band. And they're from San Diego. And one of the guys, he was, you know, we're just, you know,

he's got a little kid, he's a normal guy, but he plays in slightly stupid. And he was, you know, they just got back from tour. And, you know, I just said something to him about, I don't know, how it was. And he goes, man, it just never gets old, you know, getting it up in front of 10,000. and people that are singing your songs, man.

He said it's just like unbelievable, man. I tell you, man, I haven't been on tour in a really long time. And the last time I gigged out, I think the last time I did a tour was like 2000. And then a lot of shit went south in my life. Go figure. And I needed time to pull myself back up and get my shit back together. I'm going on tour in about nine days. I'll be playing in Berlin first.

I'm going to be playing a bunch of shows in Germany. I'll be playing in Venice, in Italy, and I'll be playing in Switzerland, I believe, in Belgium, in the UK. I'm going to have about 12 or 13 shows in 13 or 14 days. I'm really, really looking forward to this. I'm not looking forward to this. forward to driving five six hour drives I'm not looking forward to not sleeping in my bed I'm not looking forward to not waking up next to my wife I'm not looking forward to

all that shit but I am really fucking looking forward to doing my thing again you know I got so involved with jiu jitsu and teaching jiu jiu jitsu and stuff that music actually started to take kind of a back seat especially when I had my kids and I really couldn't tour and stuff anymore. While it was a choice I made, I mean, I could have done whatever the fuck I wanted, but I chose to be there for my kids. Now they're older and so on, and life is, uh, has made, uh, this possible to do again. I can't wait, man.

And, um, you know, there's, the, affecting people the way I, you know, you do with music, it's, uh, you make a connection, you know. You know, look, man, I'm sitting across from you now. I'm doing a fucking album I did 30 fucking years ago. What did that fucking tell you? It's badass. You know. It's good.

You're going back to the book here, you're at that point. You know, this is the same time period where you're getting arrested for shoplifting. Here we go. I was in a state of depression, and the drugs helped me stay in it. I was trying to get better as far as wanting to get off drugs at least half the time and I would for a few days or a week or so here or there But I was just too depressed and one thing would lead to another then back into the abyss the death spiral into emptiness Nothing and nowhereness Of course, I was all into Alice and chains and nine inch nails and all that fucking depressed drug music

But even as fucked up as I was there was this wheat grass juice stand on mission, and I'd still make sure to go get a shot of wheat grass juice every day because I figured, hey, at least wheat grass juice is equal to eating tons of vegetables. I was trying to sort of stay healthy. I was like, okay, I know I'm not eating regularly, and I'm not eating very well, so let me at least try to, you know. And this is another thing.

Again, I think this shows your state. So I go to music stores, heroin and fucking wheatgrass juice. Raw. Raw. That's horrible. I'd go to music stores and pretend I was going to buy shit and just play instruments. I'd hang out as long as I could and then leave. I actually got offered gigs while I was playing in stores.

I got offered gigs for doing sessions for different producers. But I'd be all fucked up and missed the session because I wouldn't know what day it was and then realize a day or two later I'd lose their business card or whatever So you just can't get your shit yeah I was really just I was pretty fucking no it was embarrassed and that was by the way that was taking place out on the west coast Yeah, yeah and then it sounds like I went to San Francisco to clean get clean off drugs That's like the worst city bro Fuck haven't you ever heard of Idaho

Or where Yeah You need to check out Idaho or Montana. Yeah, Montana. Fuck that. Then you move back to New York and now you start kind of bringing it back together. I'd go for these long runs at night because I couldn't sleep. Your girl lived down by the Twin Towers and I'd run from there to Central Park

and back on the way it stopped by Coney Island High on St. Mark's Place to see who's hanging out for a few minutes, say hi. Then keep running uptown to the top of the park. I'd run a few laps around the reservoir and then turn around and head back down. On the way back down, I'd stop at Coney Island High again, and there would be the same people. Everyone was pretty much in the same place, just slightly more shit-faced, and I'd hang for a few more minutes and then keep running.

It was kind of good to see that. As I was getting my shit together to see all these people, not really doing anything but standing around, getting fucked up as they got older and did nothing with themselves. It gave me motivation to keep my shit together. So? Yeah, that's when I started pulling myself back. up you know and one of the things that helped out with that first of all you guys got

deaf jam you guys got signed a deaf jam is that right we had a they gave you an advance or something yeah we got an advance to record something for them and then the deal wound up falling apart so we wound up being left with the recordings in our possession that we were able to then put out ourselves what what album was that uh revenge okay which i thought was actually a really good album but um you know it is what it is but the thing shit never managed to stay together that band just had fucked up karma and around this time you started your jiu jitzu career yes yeah well that's you know i i i've said it many times man henzzo really fucking saved my life in a lot of ways because uh you know even though i was doing those you know 12 mile runs and shit like that i mean i've

worked my way up to really doing long long ones I started off doing like three four miles I got into it but I would still have my moments of just like depression and I'd want to get fucked up and stuff but I had Jiu Jiu Jitsu and I was living in my rehearsal studio I didn't even have a fucking shower I was like bathing on the roof with filling up two gallon buckets I'd go up there with like four or five buckets and just like bathe I was living in the rehearsal rehearsal studio I wasn't you know life was not great but every day I'd go and I'd train and that gave me a place to to find myself again you know when was this what year uh it was like

January February of 96 okay like I when I came back I discovered you uh MMA from UFC 1 and 2 when I was out on the West Coast I'm like what the fuck did he just do to him. Like, I've probably, you know, hit a thousand people in the face. I'm kicked a thousand people in the head and head budded and bit and whatever. But I ain't never seen a triangle choke. The fuck is an arm bar. You know, and I made up my mind.

This is when I was still on smack. I was like, I made up my mind. I was like, yo, if I ever get the chance to learn that shit, I'm going to fucking learn that shit. So when I came back to New York, I just kept going through. like Black Belt magazine, Kung Fu magazine. I'm like, one of these motherfuckers got to move out here. Sooner later, this is New York. I mean, they can't all stay in California.

Gracies are like a very big family. One of them's going to have to move out here. So Henzo moved. I found an ad, Henzo Ku Kluk. Gracie Kukuk, it said. Gracie Kukuker. He was still with his old partner. And yeah, man, I went down and I met Henzo, and that changed my life.

And that was 21 years ago. Yeah. And a lot of people are, they think, I don't know why they think it, but they think Jiu-Jitsu is going to be, you know, kind of, when you walk in, it's going to be intimidating. And, you know, I could tell from the way you wrote about it, Hensow's just like, hey, what's up, you know? Yeah, he just makes you feel so welcome and so at home. Yeah.

And he's, you know, I can say this and mean it, you know, I really love that, man. You know, he was there for me through some of the toughest parts of my life and he didn't give up on me and he believed in me. And sometimes really that's all you need is somebody to believe in you and to not give up on you. And, you know, when I got arrested in 2012 and I was all over the papers and the news and everywhere, you know, they, a lot of people were shying away from me. Let's just say that. for those of you who don't know I got jumped by about five or six guys and I wound up biting a nice chunk out of one of their faces

and slicing a couple of them and poking one of them in the process of me getting jumped I got 40 stitches I was stabbed and you know a lot of people were like you know I can't believe he did that blah blah blah and I'm like did what you know got jumped you know I got fucking jumped man

and fucking tell me about slicing, cut, and stab it, and fucking tell me shit about shit until you got five, six motherfuckers trying to take your fucking life. You know, then you can start talking about, how could you this, how could you, fuck you. You know, you got five dudes kicking you in your face, stomping on you. You had better be willing to stab, bite,

or rip someone's balls off. You know, that's what people don't fucking, understand who have never experienced real violence or real potential of death. You know, when I first got into jiu-jitsu, it was all about the fighting. You know, I was like, oh, yeah, learn more ways to fuck people up. Yeah. Now I really, it has nothing to do with fighting for me anymore. I mean, I just love the art.

I love the relationships that I've made through the art. I love sharing what I've learned. And if anything, I'm, again, you know, the fight or flight, man. I'm way more likely to run than fight at this point because I know how bad things can go. Yeah. You know, like I definitely, I actually might have told this story before. There was a badass Marine. And his name was DA.

That's what everyone called him. And in the military, DA is short for direct action. But that was his initials too. But it just so it just worked. And he looked like a superhero. He was a total stud. And he was a gangbanger from Texas. And, but, you know, he joined them.

He would be like you, right? But he joined, but he was a black kid, but he joined the Marine Corps. And he was in force recon. He was a total badass. And I said, hey, man, you got to come and try jihitsu out. And so he started training. And, like, after like, six months, he came up to me. And I was like, hey, man, you know, because I was, like, still deploying.

And he, so I wouldn't see him a lot. And I was like, man, how you like, how you like, he was like man it's kind of fucked up and I said what do you mean bro it's awesome he goes he goes no man because I used to feel like a real badass now everybody I see I'm thinking I might be a pussy so yeah man it's funny it's it's very humbling you know it is a very humbling it is a very humbling game to play it really is but you know at the same time though I to me it is

it is that though it is a game for me it's like when I think of fighting or when I think of self-defense I I believe in jujitsu I mean I'm a hundred percent a believer but jujitsu is fun for me it's not about violence or self-defense or fighting you know because fighting and violence to me is about

ending something it's ending somebody you know I mean because I know I could die I tell people all the fucking time I'm like you know you don't got to worry about like a black belt kicking your ass because he's a black belt he's already matured past the need

to kick your ass you got to worry about that 90 pound motherfucker who will stab you without you even having a chance to say dude we don't need to have a problem you know you got to worry about that dude who's just so don't give a fuck

that before you even have a chance to say, buddy, your shirt's wet and you're like, oh shit. You know? Yeah. And we've talked about that on here. You know, people say like, oh, I was going to get in this guy said something to my wife. What should I have done? I'm like, just grab your wife, go home and buy her, you know, a nice dinner.

Yeah, and say, honey, I love you. Yeah. You know, it's not worth getting stabbed in the neck. Yeah, and it's not worth having to stab that junkie in the neck either. And I just know from my own experience that there's always the potential that I could go to that extreme. I don't think for one second because I'm a jujitsu black belt that like, I'm just going to submit this guy and hold him down until the police get here. Because you know what? That guy may have three other friends standing in the shadows behind you or that guy may fucking start stabbing you when you're looking to fucking, you're trying to, you know, submit him.

And all of a sudden you're like, why is my t-shirt wet? Why is my pants wet? Oh my God, that's fucking red. You know? I mean, that's just life. You know, that's why, you know. Now, as good as Jiu-Jitsu is and as good as you felt doing it, you go on tour. And just before you go on tour, you break up with a girl at the time.

Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Back to the book without the feeling of being needed. I didn't feel as I had much. purpose in my life, I started falling back into fuck-up mode. I was seeing several different chicks around at that time. Actually, what, I don't need to interrupt, but. Hey, you wrote the book. If it's wrong, man, you got corrected. No, no, no, I'm correcting you. No, no, it wasn't even so much over just a breakup of a chick. I was actually, I'd been with this chick for a while and she had a daughter and I had

raised her daughter. So it was like, you know, also not just feeling like betrayed and everything else that goes along with a breakup, but as any father or stepfather, stepmother, you know, you have a certain, you know, you develop a love for a kid, even if it's not yours, you know, and that was really what was hard on me more than anything, because the mother was all fucked up on drugs, and I had actually taken the kid from her, and I was raising the kid for her while she was off, just being a fuck-up. and then the grandparents and me got in contact so I wound up doing you know what you do this is your family this is your blood that you got to grow up with your family so that was that's why I was struggling you know it was because it was like you know I was I never had a

father that gave a fuck about me so every time I've been in a child's life it has really mattered to me like to be to protect them because no one protected me you know so so so that was why i i really started to lose my way again you know because i was like you know i i don't have a purpose there's no one for me to love no one for me to care about and no one to feel um my my love you know so yeah the drugs to fill in the gap again. But fortunately, that didn't last forever. It's funny, man. Some of the toughest motherfuckers actually got the biggest hearts,

and that's what a lot of people don't realize is, you know, I'm sure that underneath this rugged exterior, you're quite a sensitive motherfucker. You know, and... Are you talking about me? No, I'm talking about the guy behind you. But, you know, I mean, seriously, some of the most illest motherfuckers I've known,

in my life have been some of the most sensitive people on the inside and I think that part of that illness has been a shield you know to protect themselves I know and it probably was with me in a lot of ways you know if I wasn't as violent as I was my neighborhood would have devoured me my environment would have devoured me if I wasn't as... Yeah, so to your point, I agree with you. And that's one of the reasons why I think going back to Jiu-Jitsu or boxing or wrestling or Maitai. But when you, me, when we're kids, young men, going back to the whole thing about

proving yourself, how are you going to prove yourself that you're tough when you're a kid? You go out and you fight and you beat people up. You do stupid shit. You do stupid stuff. When you do jihitsu, you know you're tough. And you know when you look at some guy in the street, like, hey, that guy might stab me, but if he doesn't, I'm going to, I will choke him out and it'll take me 15 seconds. So I don't have to do anything to prove.

That's why I think it's for me, and I think it was Tim Ferriss asked me this question. He's like, what makes a man or something like that? And I was like, to your point, for me, learning how to fight. So learning jujitsu, getting married. didn't have in kids and going into combat. Those were the three things that I was like, okay, those three things, they were evolutionary to me. And they were the three things that happened where I said, okay, I don't have to walk around

trying to prove myself to this guy or that guy. I know how to fight. I don't even not need to impress that girl over there. I got a girl, you know, and I got mouths defeat, so I can't act like an idiot. And I know I'm not a coward. and if shit goes down, I know that I will do the right thing. I know that 100%.

So those are the things that, to me, gave me like security as a man. And so it's the same thing that you're saying, how, you know, when we're young and you're out there just to try and prove and protect and shield your emotions. Your sensitivity. Yeah.

You know, yeah. That's what you do. And so a good way to get over that, in my opinion, is instead of having to fake it, you learn it for real. I wish I would have had Jiu-Jitsu when I was a young kid. That would have helped me immensely. You know?

Yeah. Well, I mean, just one person I'll just mention briefly is High End Gracie, another brother that I truly loved. And, you know, he died in 2007. It was very tragic. And here's a guy who was feared by. 99.9% of the people that knew him and the 1% of people that knew him fucking loved him.

And he was, you know, it's like, I'm saying, like, you know, you got these people who are fucking dangerous motherfuckers. You don't even want to look at them wrong or for too long, you know. But if they fucking love you, man, nobody better fuck what you ever. You got a part in the book

where you're talking about, he came home, he fought in Japan, yeah, comes home, He gives you, you know, you just had your first kid. It gives you two grand. Yeah. Not for nothing, just for being you. And now I didn't want to take it.

And he's like, shut the fuck up. It's for the baby. You know, I mean, I know motherfuckers my whole life who didn't do that for me, you know. You know, Dean Lister, who's, you know, one of my friends and training partners and all that. But he's got some funny stories about Hyann. And he's like, Hyen was fucking crazy.

Yeah. Like Hyen's just like crazy motherfucker. But to be honest, though, I never had any crazy experiences with him because I feel like when he looked into my eyes, he knew he didn't have to prove anything to me. Yeah, you guys kind of counted it out. What's that called? Yeah, there was a, canceled detention. Well, it was like, you know, I don't have to prove I'm a badass to you. You don't have to prove you're a badass to me.

Let's just go out and chill. That's good. You know, we'd go out and, like, go to stupid movies. Like, you know, go out and just work on his English. You know, like I never, you know, yeah, we had fun, you know, but we never like gotten brawls and got, you know, right. But I mean, you know, he died and he got, he got arrested. Yeah, it was a car. It was a horrible situation.

But, you know, again, it's like, you know, again, this is somebody who is very emotional. And sadly, you know, like many people, started using drugs as a way to. to deal with shit, I guess. I don't want to say to deal with shit, but maybe just as a little bit of an escape. You know, you got to figure what kind of fucking, you know, I mean, his favorite song was a boy named Sue by Johnny Cash, and he really felt like he was living that life by being him,

you know, with the name Gracie and having to be, you know, always having to step up, always having to prove himself, and always having to be a badass. And I think that when you're forced to react and deal with things on that level, all the time and especially when you are actually a nice person at heart or a sensitive person at heart when you're forced to always take that stance that shit's a fucking tough one man you know that's a hard road to travel and uh you know i always have him with me always i always have him sitting on one shoulder and henzoh sitting on the other and uh you know when i go back on yeah when i have

big when I am confronted by you know serious shit I think about you know how one would react and how the other would react and and then I try to find my own sense in there yeah yeah I mean it's kind of a classic example of everything that we're talking I mean yeah for all for all practical purposes you shouldn't be here right now you should yeah either dead or in jail or whatever yeah and he did some shit that was was going down the same path, but he didn't make it through the path. You know, and that's, you know, that's the thing, man. I feel really fortunate that I had music because I think that it gave me a tool to,

to, it gave me a paddle to row my way through the shit. But it also came with its own load of shit. You know, it's funny because, you know, I probably should have encouraged my kids to learn more about music and be more musical, but I encouraged them to be jujitsu guys, because I felt that, you know, MMA is way safer. It's a better,

there's less off roads there, man. Less bad exits you can take. You might get punched in your face a bunch of times, but at least it won't, you know, at least it won't be life punching you in your face. Damn. You know.

And there's, you know, all kinds of drama around it. You described it again as spinal tap. You know, just the rock and roll crap. Chromeags comes to an end for the most part. and you end up putting out of record Harley's War. Yeah. And good.

Good. Rock and roll music, baby. And also during that time, you had some kids. Yeah. And, you know, you met the mother of your kids. And she wanted to go to school. And so you took off some time to just. I pretty much put my musical career on hold, you know.

To take care of your kids. Yeah. And, you know, one of the paragraphs that you wrote in here is awesome, talking about your kids, and you say, and this is something I completely related to, I'll tell you the first time I looked down at the other end of the mats and saw my boys training, it was one of the greatest moments of my life.

My youngest son spent his birthday at the Academy with George St. Pierre and all the rest of the fellas. My eldest son had his birthday there with all the Gracies and about 30 kids, a full house and a cake with the Hensow Gracie Academy logo on it. My sons have grown up with Hensow like an uncle. Igor, G.or, Daniel, Neiman, all the guys treat my boys like family. They've known their instructor, Magnaugama, since birth. He came to the hospital to see them hours after they were born. and Hensow, they have known since they were days old. My eldest and I have been on Greyhound buses in the middle of the night,

traveling hours away to represent RGA and team Hensow Gracie. I have competed with my son's nationally ranked grappling, submission, and jiu-jitsu events. One of my proudest moments was when we both competed at the same event. My son took first place in his division, and I took second place in the expert master's division in the 30 to 35-year-old age bracket, although I was 44. Henzho joked when he first saw my son, this is the proof that even though the fruit is rotten,

the seed can still be good. That's, yeah, we all know that one. And, you know, I guess it's when you see your kid doing anything that you love doing and you get to see your kid do it. Echo, you got that in your future. When you see your kid, oh, yeah, you see your daughter on the mat right now. and that's cool when you see your kid like training and I'm to the point right now my son's a big kid he's 14 but he's I can roll with him man like a legit like I can roll with

him he's taller than me yeah he's my 14 year old is six foot buck 80 yeah how that even happened me yeah and it's awesome when you when you get to train and you know the other thing I noticed well I surf and with my son as good as it feels to surf like as good there's a really good feeling you surf as good as that feels it feels just as good if not better to be paddling back out after catching a wave and see my son just just just getting after it it's just it's so awesome it's like sometimes you sit there and you know i'll just like palp's like watching him and and you try not you try to like contain yourself but groovy it's just so awesome

It's so cool And you know You see you know And I got a bunch of daughters too And seeing them do when they Basically when you see your kids kicking ass at stuff man It's no man it makes you feel fucking good you know Yeah I mean you see them doing positive shit

Especially man because God knows I mean I've done so much Negative shit that when I see my kids doing something positive Makes me feel really good Yeah Going back to the book talking about your dad My dad My father died from a fire. So your father, and we didn't talk about him much, he'd gone away and then he'd like

had intermittent contact with you over the years. Well, actually, once he was out of my life, I, you know, when my mom left him when I was real young, you know, I never saw him again, and I only actually spoke to him twice on the phone. I got like one letter from him, and it was like one or two pages and a cassette of him playing guitar in a halfway house and um basically just apologizing a lot and uh yeah you know he he knew he made a lot of bad choices but um it's fucked up though because you know i mean uh he was all you know he's fucked up on heroin and he was an alcoholic and uh he he actually uh like kicked my mother in the stomach when she was like very pregnant with me you know and um yeah that's how much he

didn't want me so it's a that's a hard pill to swallow you know when your father would rather be strung out on heroin than be your father but uh but i've managed to uh turn it around you know because uh i love being with not just my kids but i teach the kids at the henselgracy academy childhood that I didn't really have, I get to experience and live vicariously through all these other kids and I get to be a role model to them where as I didn't have any and, you know, I'm teaching these little boys and little girls how to defend themselves and how to fight and how to fight and have honor and how to lose with honor and always to shake their opponent's hand and say good job, whether they win or whether they lose and how to have that.

respect for their opponent as well as themselves. You know, when I teach these kids that, you know, there's, like they say in Jujitsu, there's no losing in Jujitsu, you win or you learn. And when I can take a kid who, you know, I've worked with a lot of kids who have, you know, varying degrees of spectrum disorders, whether they've had autism or physical issues. and to see the improvement that they make not just at jujitsu but in uh in their social skills uh you know kids who are so insecure that they won't look at you and now they're making eye contact with you talking to you to life change your face and shaking your hand and and their chest is out

and their shoulders are back and they're not all you know that you know so where i didn't have certain things you know at the end of the day it gave me something else it gave me the ability to value that that relationship that you can have with children that a lot of people take for granted a lot of i even get disappointed with a lot of the parents that bring their kids to jiu jitzen because i feel like you know you're a lot of people hand their kids off to everybody else to teach them how to do everything you know they don't work on stuff at home with them They don't sit there and teach them. They don't, I get, you know, when you have a kid that doesn't know how to do a fucking jumping jack, you're like, what the fuck?

Do your parents do with you? They don't roll around with you. They don't teach you how to do a somersault. I have to teach you which is your left and your right hand. Like, really? You know, I don't think people value that time enough. And I have said it before. It's like, you know, your job may, your career may change several times in your life.

your spouse may not be your spouse forever, but your kids are always going to be your kids. So you really have to cherish and value that and the time that you spend with them because they'll always be your kids. That woman that you think you're in love with may leave you. You may fall out of love. Your job may, you know, fold.

But your kids are going to be your kids forever They'll always need you, even if it's just emotionally, to know that you're there. Even if they're not seeing you every year or every six months, or even if you don't speak to them, you know, you still have to be an emotional and spiritual backbone, even from afar. You know, I know. I mean, I forgive you, Dad. Yeah.

you uh when he died you actually flew down to Texas to you know yeah basically to bury him and that was cool too

I got to finally meet his mother and learn about my father's side of the family so there was some closure in that but uh I buried him myself I wouldn't let anybody throw dirt on top of him and uh

and as it turned out I end up burying my mom too with my youngest son. You're, um, you're, you're, now you were kind of wrapping up this book when you were writing it. And, and you know, you kind of closed it out. Um, and when you closed it out,

you said this at the end of the book. I guess part of being a father is learning how to eat a certain amount of shit. You do it for your kids because they need you. You just throw a little, on a little salt and pepper and maybe some Tabasco and smile because you got to be there for them one thing my father said was i've got all these years of experience experiences that i don't know what to do with and that's kind of how i feel with my boys how do i come in for a graceful landing after so much fucking turbulence in my life hopefully i can guide them better than i was guided

or at least maybe they will learn from my mistakes god knows i've made enough for everybody and if I remember correctly you were that was the kind of the end of the book and then you were moving on and then and then 2012 comes along and there's like a hardcore fest you know they're kind of bringing back like oh I don't know if it's like a reunion fest bringing back a bunch of old bands and the cromags I should say a formation of the chrome eggs or members of the Chrome Mags are actually playing. You can just call it the faux mags. Let's just keep it real, man.

They were going to play a fake-ass band that does my songs with one of the old members, you know. And they were going to play. Yes. And you were like, okay, you know, I'm going to go check it out. And you know what? I'll bring my bass. Maybe we'll get on stage.

I mean, you know what? There was actually two members of the original group playing that night. And my intention was to go and to extend my hand and say, you know what, guys? I love you guys. As much as I hate you, I love you. You know, and just because I like to think that at the end of the day, two people that we're friends can laugh at their own foolishness. You know, I would like to think that,

that people are able to look beyond their egos and forgive each other for being idiots, because God knows we all are at times. So, yeah, I went to that show with the, hope of maybe even being invited up on stage to play a few songs with them and well the rest is history yeah you show up and and here you go you're you're walking through the place you go to the you get invited up the dressing room hey come say hi and then here we go back to the book as soon as I walked in I literally walked into

the room took two steps the door shut and I got punched from behind out of the corner I my eye I could see it was some big dude with tattoos it was like bam he hit me hard. I saw a bit of a flash bulb like you see when you get hit out of nowhere and you don't expect it. And then it was a rain of fists and kicks that were coming from every direction of the room. And this was a small room. It's a dressing room. And I started falling forward. I fell onto the couch and rolled onto my back and started throwing up kicks just instinctively to get people off me. I was getting jumped by at least four or five guys, probably more. There was a bunch of people in the room. I think I counted seven or eight, although I couldn't even really count in all the chaos.

At that point, I reached into my pocket. I had a little knife. I pulled it out, and it still had its sheath on. So I just tried to punch the first person that was in front of me and get them the fuck off me. Everybody started screaming. I saw the door of the dressing room open, and I started yelling, security, security.

And then I left, and then I saw somebody pull the door shut. And I thought to myself, fuck these dudes, their intention is to fuck me up, and they don't want no one to see it. They're trying to beat this shit out of me. And I've seen all these dudes in a pack kicking people to the point where their brains don't fucking work. And I knew right then that if I didn't get the fuck out of that situation, I was not going to make it home in one piece. So I started flailing the knife as furiously as I could just to get myself the fuck out of that situation and toward the door.

Everybody's screaming. He's got a knife. He's got a knife. And I don't even know who it was or how they ended up in my face. I guess it was when they were lunging in my arm. I bit whoever was in front of my face. I tore a big piece out of his cheek. It was obvious it was a setup.

When I saw the door pulled shut, I was fighting for my life. These guys wanted to kick the shit out of me, stomped me out, and no one would see it. There would be no witnesses, and that would be that. But that shit was not going down. I bit the one guy's face. I just tore his fucking cheek open right below his eye. He was screaming. Blood was running down.

His face, I bit someone's wrist as they were trying to get the knife out of my hand. I just didn't bite it. I tried to tear a piece out. That's when the bouncer broke into the room at this point I was on the bottom of a pile trying to stab and kick and everybody started trying to grab my hand They're like give me the knife give me the knife on security I ended up getting dragged out onto the balcony getting kicked I got one good kick in my right face and I'm surprised it didn't knock my teeth out one dude scream get on your stomach get on your stomach put your hands out in front of you This one big guy stepped on my back with both of his feet and another guy was looking at my face and squeezing my throat I don't know who the fuck was

Who one guy looked at me and said, Motherfucker, I'll kill you, I'll kill you. I will kick you in your fucking face until you are a dead motherfucker if you don't stop moving. I saw Pete from sick of it all in the crowd of people next to us with a freaked out look on his face. He was gesturing with his hands for me to calm down and stop resisting.

He kept mouthing the words, Harley, chill, Harley. Please stop. Chill, Harley. That's when one guy said, put your hands out in front of you. I asked, are you a cop? He was like, yeah, so I said, show me your badge. and at that point the boys in blue came running up the stairs. I was like, fine, I'm not moving anymore.

Cuff me. I stuck my hands out in front of me, face down on the floor. I still didn't know that I've been stabbed. I got 40 stitches in my leg. Thank God it was in my leg only. The cops cuffed me, turned me over, and that's when I saw the wound in my leg. It was grotesque.

The blood was bubbling out of it. The fashion tendons were literally hanging out of my leg. That's why people started saying that it was a compound fracture. The cops cuffed me. They put me on a chair, carried me down the stairs, and put me in the ambulance. It wasn't until I got cleaned up in the ambulance that they realized it was a stab wound.

Yeah, it was a fun night. So, and you kind of already talked about this. I mean, they basically arrest you immediately. It was a total melee. Yeah. And I actually, when I got arrested, I thought we were all going to get arrested and there was just going to be like a bar fight.

Everybody got pulled in. But all these fucking guys, started making statements that were basically that I launched into the room and started just stabbing people. So you know, you got a room full of people saying, he did it, he did it, he did it. And you got one of me saying,

what the fuck happened? And who the fuck you think is going to get walked out in cuffs? And you end up on Rikers. Yeah. Rikers Island, for those of you that don't know from around the world, is a jail, New York jail. Rikers Island

And meanwhile the media You know Is putting out all these The version that's getting told to the media Which is that you instigated it And you were a horrible person And etc etc And now you're out at Rikers Island

Going back the book All night you'd hear people screaming and talking shit The youth offenders were in the same building as us Right next door So all night you'd hear them screaming Suck my dick motherfucker I'll fuck you up suck my dick It was funny

Fuck you suck my thing All night long Riot cops came in all the All fucking night Then as soon as the sun would start coming up And they'd finally shut up The seagulls would start making noise It was nonstop

Ironically it was the best sleep I'd gotten in a while Ever since I started going through the bullshit With my ex My life had truly become a nightmare I remember at one point I was looking at out through my window through the gates.

It was a beautiful sunny day and I could hear the birds and a butterfly flew past my window and I was like, damn. Right then and there that butterfly represented freedom. What I wouldn't do to be free right then, I had no idea what was going to happen. My lawyer told me I was possibly looking at two and a half years in jail. Rough. Yeah, I remember that butterfly very vividly. Papillon.

You get that? Yeah. You get that? I know what a papillon. It's also a famous prison. It was not in France. Yeah. It's like whatever island.

Yeah, yeah. They were on there. That was a prison island. Yeah, it was a fucking no-joke prison island. Yeah, it was a no-joke prison island. And, you know, we always find the good in things, and you got a visitor that came to visit you. Yeah. A woman by the name of Laura.

Yes, who is now goes by the name of Laura Lee Flanagan. And she had interviewed you for what website? She had a website called New Yorknatives.com. And yeah, they did a lot of stories about things happening in the city and interesting people and this and that and blogs and stuff. and she interviewed me as a native icon because, you know, you wouldn't know it from looking at her and or by her career. I mean, she's a lawyer.

She's, you know, from the Upper East Side. She's amazing. And she used to be in the hardcore for a brief moment in her childhood. So she knew of the Chrome eggs. She had seen us play. And a friend of hers, they were doing, she did a story on C-Squot, a squat that I used to live in, you know, and it was a really good story. It was very interesting. And one of the people she spoke to around that time

said, you should speak to Harley. He used to live there and he'd be interesting for, you know, for you to interview. And she pursued it. And we started talking, we did the interview. and I started sending her some chapters of this book that I was still working on at the time. And I don't remember how exactly it came about. I mean, she has a PhD, and she's done a lot of writing and stuff in her life and a lot of editing and stuff,

and she really enjoyed the book, and I needed some help in the editing. I mean, I have a seventh grade education, so the book was basically one sentence when I gave it to her. She gets the award for like editing challenges. No shit. I mean, it was one day.

Would I met her tonight? I was like, yeah, you edited the book. And then we, because I was an English major too. And we had a moment of like, I gave her a moment of mutual respect and an admiration for her efforts to try to. You don't know how much she, more she needs. I mean, this book would, okay, it's like 300 pages. It would have been a thousand pages. And it was, like I said, it was one sentence.

And we literally had to like, okay, we've got 10 stories about fighting now. Can we lose these other 20? Okay, we've got 10 stories about like almost overdosing. Can we lose the other 30? Okay, we've got, you know, so there was a, you know, I mean, it would have been a fucking endless book. I mean, I took a lot of fights and a lot of drugs and a lot of rock and roll dumbness and just a lot of actually good stories didn't make it in, you know.

But I think we got left with a pretty good picture of everything, you know? Everybody, it's actually funny because when I had the book signing, a lot of people that I went to school with in like fifth and sixth grade from my neighborhood showed up. And they were like, dude, you nailed it, man. You described the neighborhood so perfectly. And the funny shit is actually one of the hitmen. The guys from my block was at my book signing.

And I actually asked him. I was like, dude, who the fuck was pig man? And he's like, oh man, that was Crazy Yetty. And Crazy Yetty was a brand of PCP. We all used to smoke back then, so I'm sure that's why he got the nickname. But he's like, yeah, man, you know, he's got an auto body shop now, grandkids, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, word. You know, I'm like, what's on him?

I said, what's up? You know? But it was funny because literally, like, all, that actually mattered more to me than the reviews of the book was when I had people who were shared those experience. and people who grew up in the neighborhood. I mean, even more so than the Cromag's parts of the books, like the people who are like, yo, you fucking nailed it, man. This is exactly what the city was like.

I try to tell people all the time and they don't get it. So I bought them a copy just so they could fucking see for themselves. That was when I knew that I nailed it. That was it. There was a couple publishers that didn't want to put it out. They were like, yeah, we can't touch this.

Yeah, no, I can imagine. Like, hey, hey, you know, You know how your wife had to lose like 20 fight stories? I had to do for this podcast. I got ready. You know, we discussed a fraction of the crazy shit that's in here. No, I mean, we haven't even touched. I mean, we could sit here and talk for the fucking, until, you know, tomorrow.

And, you know, but I do, you know, I just, the book gets it across. And that's why, like I said, I thought I was familiar with the hardcore scene. And factually, I mean, I went to CBGB's, I don't know. of hundreds of times when I was a kid and all shows all over the East Coast, Boston. But I still didn't recognize that there was this much chaos. And speaking to chaos, I'm going to go back to the book here.

You're sitting in jail and here we go. Because of all the people talking shit and trying to frame me, the record label I just signed with was having second thoughts. Everything was coming to a head and now I had to prepare for a court date facing four felony counts of second degree assault and weapons charges for biting and stabbing people. If there was ever...

And I teach the kids. If there was ever a time that I was about to lose my shit, I'd have to say it was around this time. If there was ever a time someone would relapse into drugs, alcohol, or some self-destructive shit, it was a time like this. I actually went out and got drunk a few nights, which I hadn't done in a long time. I was really depressed. I was really at the bottom. I could have easily spun out of control, but I said to myself, fuck that.

I'm not going to let myself go and do that to myself or my kids or give in and give the satisfaction to my enemies. I'm a black belt. I have more control than that now. I'm not who I once was. I'm stronger than that. And then the next court date, I wound up getting an adjournment again because they didn't have a case against me.

And again, it got pushed back while the DA continued to try and build it. Until finally, in December of 2012, they contacted my lawyer and said to appear in court on Friday, December 14th, when the entire case was dismissed. Yeah. And, yeah. You, at that point, you know, you kind of get back on. track. Yeah.

And you're teaching Jiu-Jitsu like you said. And there's a good quote here when you're teaching Jiu-Jitsu after you had the incident at Webster Hall. And one of the parents said, you know, so here he comes back to start teaching the kids class again after he's been all over the front page of all the papers and everybody's looking at me like, oh shit. I walked in the academy and like half the people were like super happy to see me.

And the other half looked at me like a gunslinger just walked it. Like I was like, you know, fucking Wild West. one of the moms one of the moms was quoted as saying well at least i know my kid isn't getting taught jujitsu by a pussy yeah that was for that fucking made hensel laugh and yet there's still um there's still hard times because at this point you're you're you're losing custody of your kids yeah and that was you know that's you know i got to tell you i mean that that has been the the biggest trial and tribulation I've dealt with and obviously I've dealt with many but uh you know especially someone who didn't really have responsible uh people like really raising me you know i

it really hurts to not be there for your kids every day you know because i really i used to cherish those moments more than anything i mean just walking them to school in the morning and the little conversations we would have on the way to school and, you know, taking them Jiu-Jitsu. And, you know, I really was the main caretaker. I was with them all day, you know. I did everything with them, took them to the parks, to museums, the this, and this, and that's, and to then have that taken away, it's difficult to, again, to not start fucking up.

you know especially when you're you know dealing with depression and and all that shit and again you know it's just like uh like i said you know we don't have someone to love and uh to feel that that uh reciprocation and and uh you don't feel needed it's hard to not feel needed you know but i uh i you know i went through all the process of family court and this and that and uh you know unfortunately they don't live with me full time but I see them a lot and you know everybody knows who's been through a divorce and has kids or fortunately I was never married to their mother hallelujah but anybody who's been in that situation knows it's it's not easy and it comes with a lot of challenges and so now my challenges is to try to be involved with my kids lives as much

as I can and to try to give them some moral guidance and manhood guidance from a distance, you know. And sadly, they did see, you know, me and their mother act like complete and total savages towards the end of the relationship because people, when they break up, they typically don't know how to act or behave, even in front of their kids. So, but you know what? Even all of this has made me a stronger and wiser person because I feel that it has, again, forced me to look at myself and you have choices in every situation how you're going to react

and how you you know what you're going to do and and now I really think about the consequences of everything I know I can't just react explosively if somebody does or says something to me the street because I know that that could cost me my freedom it could cost that my kids their father could cost my wife or husband so you know even even losing my kids has been a learning experience that I hope God forbid they ever you know wind up with kids and separated and this and that but hopefully even this bad stuff can help them become better men and smarter men and hopefully better, smarter than I was. You know, and I just try to believe really that in the end love wins, you know.

Yeah. There was still one more thing that you had to overcome in the book. And, you know, sometimes, man, I just read a big chunk. of the books that I'm reviewing because it's just the way it's written and the way it goes together and the story that it tells, I just don't really wanna change and I just wanna put it out there. So I'm kinda gonna do that right here. After all the madness in my life and the recent drama

surrounding Webster Hall, my arrest, losing my kids, starting a new relationship, getting my kids back in my life, and dealing with all the drama of family court, my mom was stricken with terminal cancer. After a major operation in what seemed like a recovery, things took a turn for the worse. And through it all, she remained supportive in my battle for my kids,

and I started spending a lot more time with her. It's fucked up when you know your mom or dad is dying. You go through your whole life with all the baggage and shit that they put on you and all the shit in the world and your friends put on you, and then there comes a time when you realize you have to put it all down

and just let it all go. I was with her as much as possible during the last few months. We spent more time together than we had in years. We even left the city one day just a month before she died to spend some time at a horse stable. She loved horses

and she hadn't been around them since she was a child. She said it was the most beautiful day in her entire life. and later she spent the night and then the next three nights at my apartment we had such a good time that she completely forgot to take her pain medication i hope i can face death with as much dignity the way she has handled it i've never seen a braver person in my life she makes all the men i know look like cowards sadly she only saw my kids twice during her last few months but the that they spent together was amazing and very meaningful and picked up her spirits.

And I don't know, and I know that she took great comfort in the fact that I'm finally in a place in my life where things are coming together in a positive way. I just wish she could have been here with us longer. She died Monday, June 15th, 2015. At the funeral, her ashes were carried out and placed on a table. They were in a box not meant to be buried. A beautiful statue of a crying angel. We all took part in reading from Bible verses.

I held on to my son Jonah and he cried quietly. My son Harley stood behind me with my girlfriend trying to keep his composure as tears rolled down his face. At the end of the service, a slight drizzle of rain started again. when everyone was done consoling each other and people started walking away I looked at the box sitting on the table surrounded by flowers with the hole in the ground beside it two cemetery workers arrived with shovels and a rake and I walked back and asked if I could cover her with soil myself

as I had done for my father 13 years earlier I explained that I didn't feel right about someone who didn't know my mother covering her with dirt they understood. I thanked them. I took the box with the angel off the table. I kissed it. My sons kissed it. And I got down on my knees and put it in the ground. One of the cemetery workers handed me a shovel and I started to fill the hole. My youngest son who'd been crying came over next to me, got on his knees and started to help me fill the hole with his hands, grabbing pieces of soil and putting them in, picking out rocks, so none would damage her box as we filled it, and his tears stopped.

I put down the shovel, and we both finished by hand, and then I raked the soil over, and we patted down the earth with our hands, and it was done. It was so sad and so beautiful. The next day was Father's Day. When I started writing this book, I didn't know what the end was going to be or what I wanted to say besides telling the story of my life and setting the record straight. But now it's so obvious what is about closure. That wraps up the book. And no one has lived a perfect life. We've all made mistakes.

We've all done things that can't be undone and we've gone places that we should not. have gone but we all have the opportunity to redeem ourselves and it starts with confessing what we've done it starts with owning it and then getting on the right path and staying on the right path and staying on that path the correct path discipline and it takes humility and it takes courage and it's hard what is the other choice what else can we do let the darkness completely consume us live for instant gratification, wherever we can find it, be overtaken by temptation and vice. No, do not accept that.

I hear from a lot of people that struggle with all these things. They're caught. They're drowning under the weight of pain and suffering and misery and addiction. what I think and what Harley proves is that you are better than that you are better and you can triumph over these dark forces you can become better you can be better for yourself and for the people around you for all of us never surrender you overcome a lot of stuff man yeah it's um I guess everyone is. This is the time in the podcast,

why we have echo here. One of the many reasons. Because we get the chance to decompress a little bit. Yes, fully, fully. He gets to ask a couple questions. Yeah, yeah. They plague my mind a little quick. You know, like when, after the thing,

where'd they step wearing your leg? I actually got to step in my leg. I mean, you can see when I walk. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like lower leg. Yeah, because you were saying they thought, or they thought it was a compound fracture. Yeah, because the fissure is white. Yeah, yeah, right there.

So everybody thought that was bone that was sticking out. Yeah, and that would make sense down there, but kind of by your shin. Like in your thigh, it would be like compound fracture. Yeah, no, I didn't even know it happened until I was cuffed on the floor. Bro, see, that's so crazy. Like when you're in like the moment so much. Yeah, yeah. Where you can get straight up stabbed.

Yeah, dude. Stabbed with your stuff hanging out. And you don't even know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. be like what what what yeah okay what's next okay oh oh my face is off oh dang oh can I so crazy here's your eyeball thanks yeah yeah I mean that's why that's why I'm so

sketchy when it comes to like as much as I you know I got to admit it like that shit was fun I like a good adrenaline good scrap like a good violent confrontation A good fight is fun, but it was also like life and death, you know. So it's like, you know, like I was saying, you know, like I had that one fight in California where I'm running into a mob of all these dudes like, you know, I was high off that shit for like a week. My adrenaline was like, ah, I felt like I could fucking, yeah. And then like a week later, I'm like, what the fuck, man? What the fuck was that shit?

You know, so like as much as, you know, yeah, it was fun. Like, how often do you get to have a street fight anymore? You know, shit, especially at my age. I fucking put three guys in the hospital. That's a fucking good time, man. But it was all the other shit, all the fucking ripple effects that came along with me. Like, fuck, I may not see my kids. Fuck, I may be in jail fucking for the next three years, like, fucking, you know,

protecting my ass from bubbles over here. Yeah. You know, I'm like, fucking, you know, the whole shit was like, damn, man, can we forget, can't we just all get along? Can't we all just have a street fight? You know, can't we all just have a street fight and get on with our shit? You know, but you know, shit happens, man. What are you going to do, man?

Yeah, when you put everything into perspective, the whole getting into street fights doesn't seem quite as dope. Yeah, you know, it changes when you got responsibilities. Yeah, that's the thing, the responsibilities. Anyway, speaking of responsibilities. Speaking of responsibility. We're not getting any younger. So we'll talk about Onet first, as always. So, on it.

Supplements. You know about On It? No. Most people you used to know but on it. Oh, in the West Coast, they do, I think. That's how you motherfuckers are so big. Because you're on it. You know, I need to get some of that shit.

I need to get on it. Yo, what the fuck is up with Onet? Yeah, what the fuck is up with Onet. Actually, true, but here, Indira. And that's what I thought, too, with supplements, where it's like, yeah, it takes supplements. will get you big. I found that that's not necessarily the case. So the supplements that I take that we take, therefore like... You got a suitcase with some in

for me? I forgot me. I'll get you. I'm getting on it, motherfuckers. I'm getting on it. I've been on other shit. Now I'm going to get on it. This is stuff that's good. This is legal. I want you to be on the right stuff. Yes. Yeah. I want you to stay moving towards

the light. Yeah. The light is on it. Right. Yes. This is a way for the Yeah, especially you do Jjit, you know, like you do. Like, for example, the ones that I take, we take now is krill oil supplements, right? For inflammation and shit like that. Yes, exactly right. You know about that krill oil. No one knows.

So on it is like a real reputable company that, like you know you're getting, because, right, you can get supplements. No, you get some bootleg shit. Yeah. You get like, they say krill and you're getting like fucking, you know, rat oil. Yeah, rat bladder oil. some shit, you know, yeah. And they'll be like, yeah, there's cruel in there. Yeah, like this much, you know, the rest of it's all vitamin E gel. Yes, exactly. You're right. So this is on it, it's like known to be the best.

I'm going to have to get down. Actually, Aubrey, the, you know, the main guy, his, like, he has an extensive background in, like, uptake. You know, how, like, you can get a calcium supplement, but that supplement won't deliver the uptake, so your body doesn't take it. You're not even breaking it down or absorbing it. Yes, exactly. So there's all these states. There's a lot of different vitamins and all that shit. I try to get all my vitamins through food. Yes.

You know, if I can, you know. Yeah, that's optimal. Yeah. So that's kind of the point there where like, yeah, when you get it with food, you know that you're going to get the best uptake, for the most part. You know, if you, if you're getting your, you know, I don't know, protein from soybeans or something. Yeah, see, I don't get as much protein as you animals over here. I'm a vegetarian. Right.

I have been since like 82 or something like that. Which I also think is one of the reasons why I managed to maintain a certain level of health and sanity. Despite all the drugs, I think that that actually, you know, helped me. The wheat grass. You write that story. Hey, hey, everyone is listening to the podcast. If you're shooting up heroin, make sure you take your wheatgrass. And always wear a condom when you're shooting your heroin.

with it. Good Lord. But yeah, you figure that's optimal from the food. But on it, like, they, like, they do a good job in, in knowing, like, the optimum way to uptake, like, the nutrients. Yeah, I found that out. Nice. That's a, you know. I say, you know, that's a good one.

Anyway, one of the reasons. So, we do krill oil, strong bone new one. I just started. Jock always does it for your joints. So you do jit-sue, and, you know. No, I have some joint issues. Yeah, man. After a while, that's how.

Yeah. And, yeah, and the cruel oil. helps a lot a lot that's the I'd say that's the number one I think so that I would recommend huh I'd recommend a few more other things too but just for different reasons like this one of warrior bar it's Buffalo your vision it's I never mind about it's Buffalo meat made you know how like they make not necessarily I know you know it doesn't have all the fucking hormones I don't know if you could necessarily offer it to the gods which God you're offering it too I mean I'm sure there's some Native American

God you could offer it too you know there's a lot of gods out there's a lot of There. I mean, the warrior bars say, it's good. I know that much. Yeah. You know, for Hindu, there's enough gods to pick from, you know. That's true. They got plenty.

Yeah. I think they'd be done for the shroom tech as well, which is stuff. It's made from a mushroom. Do you know the mushroom name? Different kind of mushroom. Different kind of mushroom. You're used to be. That's the kind I was doing on alpha omega.

Where the keyboard started to sound good. But it's just to help you uptake oxygen when you do athletic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, Jitzy, you're doing a bunch of rounds. You need to, especially as you get older, your oxygen level, it doesn't travel as well. Yeah. I just realized there's no greater joy for Echo than when someone's on the, on the podcast as a guest that wants to know about this stuff. He's pumped.

Look at him. He's good. Bro, they'll ask me at, like when I'm training or whatever. They'll be like, hey, what's it with the krill oil is that? Like, you know, your thing? And then, bro, I'm like doing a sales pitch to him. It seems like it anyway. Get him a krill shirt.

Yeah. I'm gonna. Ask me about the crude oil. No, don't, don't ask you about that. I'm telling you, in the mornings,

I told this story before, jock heard it plenty times. In the mornings, my daughter, she's like four now, but, you know, when she's like three, she'd come in,

wake me up. Actually, the only person in the world that hasn't heard this story is Harley Flan. Yeah. But he's about to hear it. I'm about to hear it.

No one's going to stop. Pivotal. You and me talk for three hours right there. Echo gets to talk for an hour now about Crillo. Go. All right. Yeah,

you told your story. And that was a good on here. Here might. Anyway, she'd wake me up, jump on my back. So, you know, now I got to stand up, out of bed, cold, sore from whatever. With a three-year-old on my back. And it'd be stiff. I got to do the correct form to get up.

Otherwise, you know, you turn your back, your knees, all that stuff. After, like, it was just under a week, krill oil. No factor. It's like I was already warm. That's the feeling. You want some krill oil? I was just going to interject. I got to give my father-in-law some props.

May he rest in peace. He turned me on to the krill. Boom. Me too. Same with your father-in-law, right? Let me tell you. The father-in-laws, they've been around. Yeah, they know.

They've been around a little longer than us. Yeah, no, he turned me on. And even though, you know, I am a vegetarian, I do take the fish oil, the krill oil and whatnot, because, you know what, I mean, look, I started off as a vegetarian for whatever spiritual reasons. whatever health reasons. Now I believe it's best to have a mainly vegetarian diet.

But if my body starts saying, motherfucker, you need some fish. Like you are like about to be dropped dead if you don't get some serious protein search. Like I will do what my body tells me to do. I think humans are designed to be able to do vegetarian and meat. That's why we have two different kinds of teeth. You know, when we were hunter-gatherers, you know, you were gathering a lot more than you were hunting, realistically, because hunting wasn't always easy with a fucking spear.

Yeah. You know, so, you know. I listen to my body a lot, too, and my body usually tells me to eat things. Yeah. You know, props. Yeah. Total props. Well, the good thing about the krill, however much this means, how they harvest the krill is also, yes.

Yes. So how they do it, though, is good. They use, like, eco-friendly ships. You watch the video. Eco-friendly ships. Yeah, it's a whole thing. Bro, I'm telling you. It's a canoe.

A really big robot. It's a big robot. Eco-friendly shit. Fuck is that. I'm telling you, man. I watch the video. I watch the video. It's good.

Okay. Maybe you just need to have your own podcast called the Echo On It Podcast. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. People need to know. You got to fucking make your own line. Echo oil. Something.

I don't know, man. On it one. I think they haven't nailed that for sure. All right. On it. I'm going to get on it. Interestingly enough, how your father-in-law turned up. My father-in-law turned out to it.

I didn't listen to him, by the way. I only did it when Jocko was like, yeah, I take girl oil. So I was like, okay, I'm going to take it. My father-in-law, yeah. Whatever. Anyway. Anyway, onet.com slash jaco. That's how you can get 10% off of all your stuff, whatever you like.

Well, I'm just going to ask him directly to get me to do. Oh, he'll slide, yeah. That's what I did in the beginning, too. Take my krill oil. Yeah. Also, good way to support Amazon click through. So what all that is, you shop Amazon, right? I guess I have.

Okay. Remember how I just said you're the only person that hadn't heard like the krill oil store? Now you're the only person in the world that's not getting everything they buy off of Amazon. Bro, I live in the city. I go to the store, man. I guess it's different here. We want it. We go out of it.

Plus, you can walk, yeah, you can walk everywhere. Yeah, it's not like that. Like I said, we got yards. Yeah, you got fucking barbecues and yards. Fuck, you all motherfuckers all miserable about. No winter. Yeah. Bitch-ass motherfuckers.

No snow, nothing. We have a winter. Yeah. You know, he's from Hawaii, right? Yeah. So he takes it from California. It goes one step further. My mom says that, oh, yeah, in the winter, it rains a little.

I don't even know if that's true. rains a little that shit that don't qualify anything you mean it feeds the plants what is that you know it's a fucking monsoon I don't want to hear it yeah man I hear bad things but yeah so Amazon oh yeah that's what we're real Amazon all these things you turn to me on in the event of you shopping on Amazon and this goes for everyone before you go to

Emily you click through the website through our website your website yeah yeah So it's like a little, it's like a support. So when you buy, you get a thing from Amazon saying, hey, thanks for referring people. You know, that's pretty dope. They give us a little bit, a little piece of that. Yeah.

And you know what it caught? The cool thing is, because you can set up things for like podcasts. That's basically give me money. Just give me money. Oh, like a donation. Yeah. I don't really like asking people for money.

Yeah. You don't even, it doesn't, your price doesn't go up. It's actually in my book. It's kind of a good way to stick it to the man because Amazon got to kick a little bit. to the podcaster over here. But it's kind of not because... Wait a minute.

You stick it to the man too. Yeah, I do. I thought you were all about the man. He's just kind of an ambiguous. He plays it. I guess I'm probably... You know, I still got the roots, man. Keep in his integrity.

Fuck the man. Wait a minute. I am the man. Wait, am I the man. Wait, am I the man? Uh, yeah. Uh, yeah. There is it.

Yeah, a little bit of confusion there. Yeah. That's cool. But I mean, either way, you know, when you do this, I think it does benefit in Amazon because it's like a referral, you know? I mean. Oh, because it, yeah. So you're saying that somebody might order something from another online retailer, but instead someone says, I'm going to support the podcast. Yeah, fuck that.

Support the podcast, motherfuckers. Yeah. Don't be a bunch of bitches. You got to support the home team, man. Fuck that. I feel the same way. If I'm hardly on that one, man. Shit.

But Amazon is actually pretty cool like that. Like, they'll offer every once in a while, like little things. Like, oh, you want to donate? Like you round up like let's say your thing costed like eight, 89. You're like, Hey, you got 11 cents to the next dollar.

You want to donate that 11 cents to like something? It's like charity. Anyway, Amazon's good like that. Anyway, you want to support the podcast. Through the Amazon, click through,

go to the Jocko podcast website, which is joccopodcast.com and click on the support or the Amazon banner and then do your shopping. That's a good way. Some people, they'll do it and then like the little, they'll get a screenshot of it and they'll send it to me Twitter.

Yeah. No, that, that is cool. That is dope. It's confirmation. Yeah. And it's kind of like,

like they're saying, hey, I'm supporting the body. And I feel, I feel that like the literal direct support from them. If you want to give Echo Charles a good day as you support the podcast and hit him with a little social media.

It's weird because like, it, a lot of times they don't see like the price or nothing. They'll just say, oh, it'll be a screenshot pretty ambiguous. It could very well not even be them supporting the podcast necessarily. I just,

I just feel like, oh, yeah. We just trying to tickle you. did that. Maybe it works. It works. I like when they do that. Makes me feel good. I feel like they care. Yeah, very easy.

Anyway, you can subscribe to the podcast, iTunes, if you listen to it on iTunes and Stitcher, Google Play, all these ones. Yeah, that helps. Leave a review if you're in the mood, like what Jacques was saying. Or Harley. You know, give a review on this specific one. We have a YouTube channel. If you have not subscribed to that,

go ahead, subscribe to that. if you like the video version of this podcast but the excerpts you know people have been kind of giving me crap about saying excerpts a lot do I say excerpts? You say it a lot and you put your tone on it for real? Yeah you don't just say I don't think I say it a lot no you don't say

hey you know we've got some excerpts that we put on you go I made a couple excerpts you go you go escalation voice level 12 yeah I guess Well, I think that was your right Was that your idea? Excerpts? Yeah.

There you go. Yeah, because people don't want to watch Yeah, they're not going to watch three hours. Yeah, three hour podcast. If there's some point, oh, hey, Jockey, cool thing with Harley Flanagan, he was talking about this. Yeah.

They want to see Harley for three minutes. They want to send it to their buddy that they listen to hardcore with. They can't send them, hey, watch this three and a half hour podcast in the next during your lunch break. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't work. Can't do it.

Got to send them a little clip. Listen to Harley Flanagan. Talk about a street fight. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly right. Maybe you should do a bunch of excerpts of yourself talking about on it. An exonics.

You've seen excerpts. Yeah. No. That's not very shareable. But that was a good idea. Thank you, Jocco, for that. So if you want to see excerpts of random lessons, not random, they're not random. Sorry, I didn't mean random.

Excerpts of lessons, individual lessons. Selected. Selected from the podcast. Boom, that's on YouTube. And also, if you want one, tell Echo, on social media. Hey, make this time period on this podcast

into an excerpt and put me on there too because that way I can harass him to now we can't do it to every single one. Yes. Straight up. You can't do every single one. But some of them I see and I go yeah, I go come on man.

Yeah, no. The people are asking. I agree. Yeah, can you post wheatgrass and heroin? Yeah. See? Yep. That'll be a fun one.

Yeah, bro. I think we're going to do that one. But not. That's the one they're going to do. Fuck. We'll have t-shirts. Because everybody, that's another thing. They want excerpts, but people also want to have t-shirts for everything.

Like anything that some person somewhere. Health food and heroin. Somebody find something funny or interesting or whatever, and it's, hey, we need to make that into a t-shirt. And then it gets escalated to a certain point where enough people ask for it and then we break down. Echo breaks down. Yeah. And makes a t-shirt. it up. It's true. It works too.

It's like a, yeah, it's good. Anyway, yeah, so the excerpts. Good idea. Thank you. YouTube. But if you do the request, if you're requesting the, you know, what episode and what excerpt, be sure you know which excerpts are already

on there. Because sometimes people say, hey, do this one and then it'll already be on there. Just saying. Yeah, sometimes people tell me to do a book review and it's already been done. Oh, yeah. If you're doing a real up. Yeah. Art of War.

Yeah, I get a lot of requests like that. Yeah. Then I have to look up and see which one it is and then send it back to them and say, hey, man, I already did it on this one. Yeah. Actually, that's a good, like how we were going over today. That's a good thing about how we put the timestamps on all the subjects. And that feeds into the search terms.

So if you're like, hey, SunSuit, Jocca Podcast's Art of War, it'll go. Boom, to that episode. Yeah. 22 or 3 or whatever. Actually, coming on top of this book, there's a book out about HR right now from the bad brains. Yeah. And the reason I'm thinking of this is because, one of my buddies

who's into the podcast who was a hardcore kid growing up and his name is knocko but he's a he's a cop in L.A and he was a cop in New York and so I'm just thinking about that like here's a kid that grew up

listening to the Cromags who's been like saying get a Harley R or you gotta get a he's a cop he's a badass cop and his girl's a cop too they're getting after I got friends that are the cops man I don't hate them all

you know people they'll be like hey no i don't eat cops i got friends that are cops you know what i'm saying some of my best friends are black people yeah look i got a picture of me and a cop on my phone now i'm that guy busted busted busted not to be trusted fuck no all good um also hey jocko has a store it's called jaco store these shirts jaco and we were talking about boom i need to get one of these discipline equals freedom motherfucking shirts you know i wrote a song recently yeah that i named discipline equals freedom yeah yeah and and just i got to fucking say because you know i i don't give a fuck i'm gonna say it and that's that you know when i found out that jaco was in the hardcore and when i found out that

he was into my band the chrome eggs i was i was very proud and all and And I asked this motherfucker, you ever thought about singing in a hardcore down? And the fucking reaction I got out of this motherfucker, if my computer screen could like just turn into like a fucking screaming like the motherfucker, the response. Anyway, I'm very proud to say that what we're going to be playing, besides doing this European tour, I'm going away in a week, playing all over the place. Then we're coming back and in June I'm going to be playing in L.A.

And we have invited Jocko to come and make a special guest appearance when we play at the Fury Fest in L.A. So for all of you motherfuckers out there who want to see me playing with one of the baddest motherfuckers walking this fucking earth certified by the U.S. fucking government, then you were going to see some fucking badass shit because I'll tell you, I have not gotten. I haven't been able to just play the bass and not be chained to the microphone in a really long time. And that was one of the things that was intense about the Cromags back in the old days

was that me and the singer both used to go fucking ape shit when we played. And it's funny because, you know, I've been thinking for the longest time, man, if I could get a singer, who would I get? And I'm like, you know, shit. I'm like, you know, Henry Rollins

in his prime was fucking badass. You know, Phil Anselmo in his prime was a fucking badass. I wonder of Jock. go to do with this shit. So, we'll see what happens. We're going to see what happens. All you motherfuckers who want to see some shit.

You know, I used to have a fake seal singing in my band. Now I get a real one. We'll see what happens. If a mic ends up in my hands, we'll, I may have to slap with a mic and see what happens. There you go. Yeah, you can sing the, or with those shirts on. That's fucking right.

Yeah, man, Jocco story. That's where you get them. I got you. Whatever shirt you need. Oh, yeah. For sure. But if you're in the mood to support the podcast, purchase a shirt or whatever.

We have other stuff on there. Jocco store.com. What about those mugs you made? Yeah, those are some good mugs. So I shouldn't have even said this. He's been amped about these coffee mugs we got. Or what are they called travel mugs? Travel mugs.

Tumblr's, I've heard. Here we go. All right, look, I won't go that deep into it this time. Next time I'm going deep, extra deep. This time I'll go just kind of deep. This is straight up the best cup I've ever. Does it look like his head? Like the handline?

Bro, Breder face. Actually, we kept it a little bit simple. You know, it's just black on black. It's like black matte. And then the design, you know, it looks like this on one side. It's shiny black. Anyway, it looks super dope.

But 30 ounces. So big enough, but small enough just fit in your cup holder. Boom. I'd be drinking some motherfucking coffee. so here's the thing about the coffee it's it's those ones that are like I don't know how they make them you know the inside and I don't know their stainless steel BPA free all this you know good stuff I don't know what all of that means but it's I know it's dope there's krill involved yeah it's somewhere you know down the line is involved but it keeps it like your cut if you like your

coffee hot it'll keep it hot for like eight hours or something like that I don't know if it keeps it the same temperature for eight hours. It might, I don't know. I've never had hot stuff. I'm a cold coffee guy. All right, well, here's the good news about that, bro. What I was going to say? Bro, you put, how's this?

I put ice water in it, and I was drinking it. I drank, like almost all of it. There was still a little bit in the bottom, and I forgot about it. Went to sleep. The next day, I was cleaning up. I was like, oh, my cup from last night, boom, ice still in there. You know how usually in a regular cup it's like water? It'll keep it cold for 24 hours, boom.

not losing any coldness anyway I want to go way deeper next time but this is straight we'll have a special podcast for you to talk about that cup or milk the one episode will be the cup the other episode will be the oil yeah oh no oil every single time yeah I'll go deeper

with the oil bro I'll go deeper with the krill oil right now if we have to I know we don't but anyway Jogu Starr too I think that's essentially what it is anyway but yeah but yeah chocolate store there's some cool stuff on there travel mugs are out those are good there's some bumper stickers some women's stuff on there some patches some rash guards one new rash guard and it's not

it'll be out but nonetheless i'm not going to promise anything quite yet but new rash guards can be out hoodies are on there there's some good stuff hey just take a look if you like what's on there you want to support in that way get something also psychological warfare okay all right hardly might not know about psychological warfare so i'm going to explain it deep. Not that deep. So basically, it's an album. We're three hours and 18 minutes into this game.

All right. It's an album. He doesn't care. Echo don't care. Echo don't care. He doesn't care. Three hours and keep listening. No, I'm just saying this part is kind of important too.

You know what I mean? People are out there getting after it. Yeah. Waking up early, some people, some of us. Sticking to the program, sticking to the diet, sticking to the workouts, right? Every once in a while you wake up or you don't feel like waking up early, that day or you don't feel like working out that day you're kind of tired you had a hard day

whatever so when it's time to when it's go time you're like hey maybe I'll skip today you know when you're sleeping on the program I know that feeling yeah that's the point we all do who you skip your wheatgrass exactly right so bam you get this it's okay it's an album called psychological warfare it's jaco it's not it's not music it's just tracks with jaco telling you how to overcome those weak moments in your program. Oh, boy. But it's him telling me. When I, when I, I'm having a weak moment, the last thing I want to fucking hear is

Chaco fucking telling me to get after it. That's how me, oh, fuck. Really? Right now? No, I got to do that. Really? Fuck. It's four o'clock, you know?

Hold on, man. Give me a fucking other four hours. Fuck me. You know, I like sleep. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with you guys, but whatever. It's all good. Yeah. You know?

Echo like sleep too. I like dreams. No, I like sleep too. No, actually I don't. Sleep is the enemy. Mixed emotion. Oh man, I like sleep. It's like the last hallucinogenic I can take.

It's not just about sleep. Sleep, I dream. My brain goes bananas. Love it. Yeah. If you have my dreams, you wouldn't want to sleep either. I prefer to be awake. Yeah.

I hear you. Makes sense. Yeah. Okay. I get it. But it goes. for the workout stuff too though not just to sleep so you can skip the sleep ones so you go like like the workout one and tell you don't skip the work anyway it's good very helpful

100% chance of success with that one that's a good one psychological warfare and also by the way when you click through amazon you can click through and you can buy this book right here the book is called hardcore life of my own it is written by harley flanagan and we'll have it up on the website. Let me rephrase that. It's on the website. Oh, yeah. Waiting to be purchased.

And there you go. Pick it up. On Amazon, you can also get some jocco white tea. I hear good tea. Now, there's some things in the book that Harley does not recommend. He's tried them, but he does not recommend. Some of those things that he clearly states in the book, he literally says, I do not recommend, for instance, I do not recommend Angel

dust. I do not recommend heroin. So there's a lot of things he doesn't recommend. Now here's something that I will strongly recommend. And that's Jocka White Tea. It's going to get you a lot better results than anything, any of the supplements that Harley's taken in this book. You go with Jocka White Tea instead. You're going to have a much better trip. I'm going to tell you that right now. Also, we talked a lot about Jiu-Jitsu today. And we talk about Jiu-Jitsu. We talk about Jiu-Jitsu a lot. You know, Jiu-Jitsu is a powerful thing. And there's a book that's out right now, and it's geared, it's written, kind of written

for kids. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid. It's available. Everyone that's bought it already, thank you. I appreciate the support. Thanks for spreading the word. Thanks for letting kids get a little insight into life. And I'll tell you there's something about this book that is, that I, when I wrote

the father. The book is about a kid who's, you know, fifth grade going through life. The father in the book doesn't have a role. Now, you might think I'm a, you know, bad person for not giving the father the role. But, you know, all he says, there's one line about the father in the book. He says, my dad's gone a lot with work and stuff. It's that ambiguous. And there's a couple reasons why.

I did that and the number one reason is because not everyone not every kid has got a dad I mean what you're saying is actually very real yeah you know and a lot of kids have to just deal with oh yeah my father is not around much yeah you know and and that's why I did it and and there's another subtle reason and you know without going into too much crazy detail the the lead character in the book his name is Mark and he's actually named after Mark Lee who was one of my guys Just an incredible, incredible person, incredible warrior, and he was killed in Iraq. And, you know, he was, he never dad. His mom raised him.

And, you know, so it was my way of saying, look, you know, not everyone has a dad. And in the book, he's got a strong uncle that comes in and helps him. But at the end of the book, his uncle points out to them, he says, who's going to help me now? And his uncle says to him, look, you don't need to, you know what the right things to do are. You know how to stay on the right path. You don't need someone to hold your hand all the time. You can make this happen for yourself. And that's my, the message, you know, that I'm trying to get across to kids that might not have a dad, they might not have an uncle.

They might not have a mom. But you can find out what the right path is. You can get on it. You can stay on it. And that's why I wrote the book that way. And, you know, it's interesting because I've gotten asked many times over the years, you know, about, What do you think about fatherhood and and the important roles that fathers play and again, you know, I go back to for instance, Mark Lee's a great example of a kid that was raised. You didn't have a dad and his mom's a strong woman and an incredible person and she raised a warrior. So that's why I did that in that book. And you know, another thing I did in that book is, you know, Jiu Jitsu plays a prominent role, but you could replace that with wrestling, with boxing with with with Muay Thai, but jiu jih Tzu is really a big part of it. But so is studying, you know, learning, learning how to learn and having, and as a kid, seeing what the opportunity is in being

educated, because a lot of kids, myself included, when you're going to school, when you're 10 years old or 15 years old, you don't care, you just don't care. And it's, I want, I want kids to realize that it's beneficial to get stronger, faster, smarter, and better. So that's it. Way of the Warrior kid, get it. And get it for your local library, too, because they need it because there's some kid. that will grab that book in the library

and it'll get him on the right path. Also, Discipline equals freedom field manual. You can find it by itself in the get after it section of any bookstore or online book retailer. If you look in the get after it section, there's a big empty shelf. There's a one book there. It's called Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual.

We gotta start petitioning now to make that happen at Amazon. They just need like when you drop down business, lifestyle health and fitness get after it boom there's that one book they better get in the game and also there's extreme ownership the book that kind of started all this stuff by the way thanks appreciate it it's about leadership and it's about combat and it's about taking fucking responsibility and it's about taking responsibility absolutely and that's fucking huge yep that's That's something that I think is one of the hardest things for most people to do. And, you know, I actually highlighted that a bunch of times in your book where you're kind of

explaining things that I guess you would say maybe resulted in something happening bad in your life and you'd say, hey, this happened and this happened and this happened. And every time you laid that out, at the end of it, you'd say, but it's my fault. And I should have done, I made this happen to myself. So it's pretty, and you wrote this book before, you probably writing this to say, Oh, you were writing this book the same time. I was writing that book when I was basically fucking trying to kill myself with drugs

and everything else is when I started it. And even in that state, you always say, you know, it's my fault. I should have, you know, hey, my dad was around. I don't make a habit out of looking for other people to blame. I mean, it's important to identify the roots of the problem and so on and what made you the way you are. So you can fix them. Exactly.

So you can fix them. Exactly. And a big part of being a man is accepting responsibility for your fuck-ups. Yeah. And I thought that was awesome. You know, and again, you know, when you were talking about what you learned from your dad not being around and then how you apply that to help other kids that are in that situation, teaching them jiu-jitsu and taking care of them and building relationships the best you can with

your kids and with other kids that around, man. That's exactly what you're talking about. So that's extreme ownership. And also don't hoard the knowledge. You might think, hey, I'm going to get extreme ownership for myself. I'm going to read it at night and then I'm going to become a good leader and I'm going to do better at work. Don't do that.

That's the wrong move. What you want to do is you want to actually distribute it to your team. Yeah. And that way they all get on board and now the whole team starts kicking ass. That's what you want to do. Up and down the chain of command. Then if you need more than that, you can hire our leadership and management consulting company, Eschelon Front. We are the premier leadership consulting company in the entire world.

So we're the ones that teach the methods and the techniques and the tactics and procedures from extreme ownership, proven in combat. So you can email, contact us, info at Escalonfront.com. We just had the muster number two in New York City. Awesome event. If you missed it, come to Texas, July 13 and 14. Omni Barton Creek Resort and Spa. And again, forget about the spa. You're not going to the spa.

Don't come for the spa. Not happening. But what will be happening is leadership. We'll talk about combat leadership and how to apply that to your business and to your life. And if you can't make Texas, it's okay. We got backup. We got contingency operations.

If you can't come to Texas, September 14th and 15th, we will be back in San Diego on my home turf where there is no winter. We got big yards and barbecue. You're spoiled motherfuckers. And that's the way we like it. It's all right. You're entitled to be spoiled at this point in your life. I'll take it. I'll give you a pass on that.

Until the musters, we can be found actually on the interwebs, on Twitter, on. on Instagram and in the Facebook. I'm gonna find it there. Harley is at Harley F. Flanagan. And Flanagan is spelled F-L-A-N-A-G-A-G-A-N. Harley F-L-F-Lanagan. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jock-Wilink.

Echo, you got anything else? Nope, that's it, man. My pleasure. Gentlemen, it was a real pleasure. Absolutely. Any other closing comments you want to make? I definitely wouldn't advise smoking PCP, taking a list. No, seriously.

No, thanks for having me on, man. It's a real pleasure. You know, you've become a big inspiration. I love reading your quotes and your books and listening to the podcast. it's uh sometimes it's exactly the kick in the ass that i need and uh i appreciate that and uh and again i'm very honored and proud to have been a part of the soundtrack to your life indeed yes indeed i'd also like to give a shout out to my better half who without her i definitely wouldn't be doing so well my book would not be as good it would probably suck and my life would definitely suck so

Laura Lee Flanagan, I love you. And if my sons are listening to this podcast, I love you, boys. And keep up all the good work and keep your training going and keep checking out Jocko's podcasts. You might learn a thing or two. Awesome, man. Well, Harley, obviously, thanks for coming on the show. Such a pleasure, man. Thanks for the years of music that you gave to me and millions of other kids.

kids that needed to hear it. And thanks for making it through what you've made it through and coming out on the other side with a positive outlook and a positive impact and a positive message that it's never too late. And it's never too dark. And that we can always turn things around.

As long as you're alive, there is hope. Yes, indeed. Thanks to everyone else. That's listening and supporting and spreading the word. And as always, to the folks in the military out there, we salute you and thank you all for holding the demons at the gate and to the police and law enforcement and fire. Firefighters and EMTs and first responders.

Thanks for fighting the demons here at home. And to anyone else that's out there, that's listening, that's started to go down, down in that hole, down into that maw, trapped in the chains of depression or addiction or rage. or rage when you're down in that whole look up look up look up and recognize that there is a way out there is a path for you to take and it's not an easy path it'll be a fight it'll be a fight that demands focus and work and tenacity and of course discipline it is

that path that hard path that hard path of discipline that will lead you to freedom so stay on that path and until next time this is harley flanagan and echo and jaco out