Jocko Podcast - 75: Guidelines for Leadership are Honesty, Dependability, Discipline and Fairness. "Conversations w/ Dick Winters"

Episode Date: May 17, 2017

0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:19 - "Conversations With Dick Winters", by Dick Winters. 0:06:26 - Dick Winters's take on detaching the situation for a beneficial and accurate overview. 0:13:12 - Leadership: Discipline. 0:23:16 - Leadership: Honesty, Dependability, Fairness, and Presence.  1:443:49 - Understanding Others. 1:52:05 - Take-aways from Dick Winters. 2:00:47 - Closing: Life can be hard and beautiful. 2:19:16 - Support, Cool Onnit, Amazon, JockoStore stuff, with Jocko White Tea and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes). Extreme Ownership (book), (Jocko's Kids' Book) Way of the Warrior Kid, and The Muster 003.  2:56:55 - Closing Gratitude.             Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 75 with Echo Charles and me Jocker Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. We have shared the incommunicable experience of war. We have felt we still feel the passion of life to its top in our youth. Our hearts were touched by fire. That's a quote from Oliver Wendell. H.

Supreme Court judge. Lots of people know that, but they may not know. Civil War soldier. Served with the 20th Regiment of Massachusetts volunteer infantry. Saw action all over the place. Peninsula Campaign, the wilderness. He was wounded at the Battle of Balls Bluff.

also wounded and Antietam and also wounded at the Battle of Chancellorville so I think it's safe to say that he knew and understood war and that quote right there is from the beginning of another book about another man that knew war major dick winners now we've covered dick winners before his book on this podcast number 17 beyond band of brothers great book lots of lessons learned but there's another book which is called the conversations with major dick winters life lessons from the commander of the band of brothers and it's written by a guy named colonel cole c king seed who was a friend dick winters and who actually was the co-author behind that book beyond band of brothers So what's cool about this book is it really parses out some lessons about leadership in a conversational manner with Dick Winners, the things that he thought and the lessons that he learned, which, I mean, when you get an opportunity to learn from someone like this, you know what I do? I just be quiet. I listen and I learn, or in this case, I read and I learn. So this is also the guy if you haven't seen this series on HBO Band of Brothers just go stop and just go watch it

It's I don't know what it is like 12 series 12 episodes they're all awesome Everybody asked me all the time what's realistic war movies That one band of brothers and then the Pacific all both HBO series they're both phenomenal and I recommend you watch it you learn a lot about Dick Winters on that and and the guy that plays Dick Winters does a great job. And the way they tell the story and the realism and all that, it's just an awesome series. But here we can learn, not interpreted through a movie,

but actually from the man as he spoke it. So here we go. Taking it back to the book right now. From Dick Winters. D-Day was my first time in combat. So right there, let's just talk about that for a second. Your first time in combat? What's your mission?

D-Day. One of the largest military operations of all time. That's your first day in combat. Get some. Back to the book. I was mentally prepared and felt that I had done everything necessary to prepare myself for this precise moment. And you never know if you will measure up as a leader until the minute arrives when you face the enemy for the first time. Baptism by fire is a soldier's sacrament.

there is always doubt Hopefully in combat You perform as you train So I can't imagine that baptism by fire D-Day Again Get some sense of another good movie Saving Private Ryan

The opening scene of that is the same thing And that's one of the most intense Parts of a movie ever Is the D-Day when they're hitting the beaches It's crazy to watch, but watch it because it'll give you a feeling for what Dick Winters is talking about. And just imagine all these preparation that you do. You're getting ready. And guess what?

Here it comes. Little mission called D-Day. Now, that was their initial operation, was during D-Day, but then they fought all over the place. And again, we cover this in Beyond Band of Brothers. But one of the most intense parts of their campaign was at Bastone. So even though D-Day was hard, things didn't get easier once D-Day was complete. As much as I'm saying, oh, yeah, D-Day was crazy. Guess what?

It wasn't even the hardest part for them. Things got worse. Back to the book. Most of the soldiers in Easy Company also felt that Bastone was the most challenging month of the war. Staff Sergeant Bill Guarnier later claimed that he had been scared before, but he was absolutely petrified at Bastone. From my perspective, Bastone was the most miserable place I've been in my life. I was wet through and through.

And naturally, being a paratrooper, I didn't have a change of clothes, no blanket, nothing. And it was a cold son of a gun. Things were all snaffood, walking around in the black of night, not knowing where we were exactly where everybody else was, houses burning, civilians crying, wringing your hands, and behind everything. every Bush a prospective enemy we took our greatest number of casualties during that campaign Easy Company was never the same after Bastone we lost so many because we lost so many veterans who had fought in Normandy and Holland Joe Toy Bill Gornair Buck Compton Don Hubler and many others So this is this is where I started thinking okay leadership lesson learned right here I

I operated the battalion command post that was situated approximately 75 yards from the main line of resistance. You might not think 75 yards is consequential, but it gave me the opportunity to think things through and divorce myself from the chaos surrounding the front line and to make calm, rational decisions under pressure. That is the toughest challenge for any leader. So, obviously, we're talking about detachment here. And I've talked about the fact that in order to detach, you can move off the line like six inches. I'm not kidding. In a smaller group, you know, in a single platoon, he's talking about a battalion, so they got hundreds of guys. So 75 yards is more appropriate.

But if you're running a smaller unit, like one company or maybe a platoon, you got 30, 40 guys. If you move back off that firing line, six inches, a foot, maybe, you know, maybe three feet or six feet, you just step back and you, Get yourself out of that firefight where you can look around, that's what you're going to be able to do. You're going to be able to detach yourself from the chaos and the mayhem and make calm, rational decisions under pressure. Yeah, and that's such a big deal. Like, where when you do that, when you detach,

and then you can, you know, you have a clearer vision. And a lot of times the answer or a solution to some big problem is just so simple. Remember that story you were telling at the muster where, you know, one of your guys had an injured neck. Yeah, so he couldn't participate, but he wanted to come along. So he was watching from the outside, and he's like, why don't they just, what do you step back and peel left? Yeah, why don't they, why don't they get online and peel left? Yeah.

Whatever the call was. So the story is there was a guy that actually, he was the Delta Patoon commander in T.U. Bruiser. He took over my position. He took over as the T.U. Bruiser commander. Yeah. And then I was running the training. So once I was running the training, you know, now I was overall making things happen. and he was going through the training a different block of training and he broke his neck broke his neck and thank God he didn't hurt his spinal cord but he broke a vertebrae in his neck

so he had to wear one of those big crazy neck braces and he couldn't actually do the physical training wasn't allowed to bear any weight for a certain amount of time but you know luckily he was able to keep his job because he was very experienced and so we were going through the land warfare portion of training. And I said, hey man, you know, I know you can't participate, but come out with me. You know, come out and check it out. And, you know, you can see your guys and you can watch how they perform and you can, you know, teach them some stuff and learn from what happens.

So cool, he comes out and he was actually one of my, you know, one of my best friends. So, of course, we just want to hang out anyways. Right, right. Dreams is all about. So, you know, of course, he has a chance to come out and hang out with me in the desert for a few weeks. It's going to do it. So we get out there and, you know, you've heard the stories about the training

that I ran. It was really hard. and evil and crazy and psychotic and we're doing that you know we got we in that case we had these really high speed laser laser tag system and you got guys pinned down you got explosions going off you got just total mayhem going on and his guys kind of froze up and they're all pinned down in this little sort of ravine valley type thing and I got guys I got my guys my opposing force so the seals that are pretending to be bad guys pretending to be moogh they're all up in the mountains shooting down on them and killing everyone and his guys his leadership is just kind of frozen and they're sitting there and not doing anything and

you know he says to me hey can I help them and I I kind of thought about it from it I go yeah go ahead I go give him you know tell him what to do give him a prompt and he and he just you know goes down to the leader one of the leaders and says hey get online and peel left and so the guy looks at him and what does get online mean just it's an organizational movement where all your troops are pointed in all different directions Yeah boom you'd say contact right Online and that means everyone's gonna basically face in that direction You'll get a couple guys that are doing rare security a couple guys that are doing flank security but everyone is now oriented in the same direction

And then the next call that comes is peel left boom and they're all gonna start moving You know in a direction that's gonna get them out of this immediate threat So he tells he kind of says the guy hey get online peel left So the guy looks at him and he just yells out and he just yells out and Get online peel left and then everyone repeats that command and then everyone does it and within a minute They're they're home free. It literally took like one minute once they made a decision Yeah, so and then so so they get out of there and he looks at me and he goes he goes man it's so easy

When you're way up here now way up here to put it in perspective was Four feet behind these guys. That's all it was it wasn't like we were up on some mountain top with some incredible view No, we were we were there we were standing next to the guys and we were a little bit elevated because they're laying down and we were standing up, but it was not inconceivable that you wouldn't have the same perspective if you just step back and maybe, you know, shuffled over a little bit. And he says, it's so easy when you're up here. And I said, bro, you remember when we went through training? And he says, yeah. And I said, it was always like this for me. And it was. I would always just pull myself back just enough to be

able to see what the solution is. So, yes, this detachment that he's talking about, and again, in a battalion situation where you're going 75 yards and in a business situation, you know, I actually see people do this, you're in a meeting. And there's everyone around the table and there's some problem

that can't be solved. Literally step up and step away from the table. Just step back, get away from the group. Because they're all mobbed up and group think everyone's going down the same trail. They're thinking about the same stuff and there's no new ideas because they're all right there this vortex, step away from the table.

It's the same thing like step, step away from your computer. You know, you get to some point where you're just, you don't know where to go with some, you're looking for some kind of a solution to a problem. Step back. Step back. See more. Yeah. Yeah.

And writing a lot of times, they'll suggest, just skip to the end. Don't worry about like this in the middle. Just go to the end. How do you want to end? And then it'll kind of open your mind up. It'll make you sort of forget about this problem right in front of you, you know? Yeah. And give you kind of an overall view of it.

Move you towards the solution that you. know can be found. Yeah. Even in an argument with your wife or something like that. Oh yeah, well, for sure. That's a big one. For sure. Because when you, yeah, you definitely need to do it there. You're entrenched. You don't need to get entrenched. Don't do that. All right. And this part's been covered before on multiple occasions. You know what we're going to do? Covered again. Little piece about discipline. I did have a routine, a routine that was instilled into me by Colonel Sink. At COA, Colonel Sink insisted that officers always always shave in the morning regardless of the situation he would say you shave every

morning for the troops and if you want to shave every evening for the women that's up to you I followed his orders because I realized that I had to set the proper example for the men I needed to get their attention let them all know that I intended to be around for a while and that the situation was not as bad as they might think I remember before second battalion attacked foy I had awakened early and shaved before I ate breakfast I later discovered that I had cut my face in multiple places and Colonel Sink came up to check on the battalion's readiness before the attack commenced He took one look at me and smiled I realized that he was laughing at me for shaving on that bitterly cold morning

In hindsight shaving at zero dark 30 and freezing temperatures was pretty ridiculous So you know we talk about this all time got to shave got to maintain Unmitigated daily discipline in all things but what's cool that what I The reason I wanted to go over this again is because look at what he's doing psychologically to the troops. He's saying, I know I had to set an example. I needed to get their attention and make them realize like, hey, we're going to be here for a while. And you know what? I'm just going to go daily.

This is no big deal. Oh, you're worried about this stuff? I'm still shaving over here. I'm still waking up at 0400 shaving. And you're worried about this stuff. Nothing worried about. We're good to go. And you need to maintain the same discipline.

So that leading by example clearly is a big. deal right there and maintaining that routine maintaining that discipline now speaking of discipline back to the book regardless of how discipline an outfit is too much time on your hands too little activity and too much alcohol make a volatile combination so this book skips around a little bit but I put this in here because this is this is actually talking about when they were done fighting and now everyone was kind of idle he has some idle people on their hands but it related to discipline so I wanted to lock it in a little bit back to the book the battalion was no longer a combat unit but a garrison outfit it was more important to keep the troops gainfully employed to prevent boredom and monotony that would lead to a breakdown and discipline and when that occurs soldiers get careless consequently the first thing we organized were calisthenics and athletic programs you know I always joke about you know when people say they have some kind of problem and I'm oh do burpees right hey you know what a good solution to all problems are calisthenics just start doing calisthenics I like that I like that attitude I

vividly recall this is this is another reason why I put this in I vividly recall watching the men stripped to their waist or only wearing their shorts as they played baseball the sight of all those scars made me conscious of the fact that only a handful of men in the battalion had been lucky enough to make it through all four campaigns without at least one scar Some men had two, three, or even four scars on their chest, back, arms, or legs. Keep in mind that this was after the war, so I was looking only at men who were not seriously wounded. Next, we set up rifle ranges and sharpened our marksmanship. Close order drill and troop reviews were once again back on the training schedule.

I also established a schedule where each of our four platoons could rotate every 72 hours to a ski lodge in the Alps for rest and relaxation. The purpose of using this retreat was to let the men get away from the routine of a military schedule. So first of all, when I got to Seal Team One, and actually it wasn't when I first got there, but there was a Master Chief at Seal Team One that had showed up in 1971 or 1972 to Seal Team One. And Seal Team One, you know, you had 150 guys roughly on the team at that time, and they had had 34 killed in action in Vietnam. at SEAL Team 1 and wounded was I don't know how many wounded but it was a lot but this this guy who was a master chief when I met him and he was telling me that when he you know at the SEAL team you would you know you PT in the morning just like a sports team you get you get to work and you work out and here's he's a new guy right and he's they they PT and then they go in the shower you know to to wash off and he's the same thing he's like looking at every single guy's scarred up wounded you know slashes on their chest bullet holes in him and he's He kind of was saying to himself, damn, you know, this has been trial by fire for these guys.

But beyond that, what he's talking about here clearly is if you, and I'll tell you this, especially with, you know, 18 year old, 19 year old, 20 year old males that have joined the military, if you don't find something for them to do productive, they're going to find something to do that's not going to be productive. It'll be fun for them. Yeah, it'll be fun for them. They're going to have a good time, but it's not, there's a chance that they could be doing something better than what you're letting them do.

Now, of course, he talks about the fact that he's still giving them time to go out to the ski lodge and break away from it a little bit, but you just got to be careful on how you do that. You got to be careful on how you do that. It's, it can backfire if you're not careful. And the first time I was ever kind of detached from a seal platoon on a, It was when I went to training, the training department at SEAL Team 1, what we used to call training cell, which sounds legit. And it was legit.

So at training cell, the first trip I went on with a platoon, because I was always in the platoon. So the first trip I went on with the platoon, and I was outside of the platoon, and I was, you could say I was an instructor, even though we weren't running around calling ourselves as instructor. instructors we would call ourselves actually the cadre I don't know why it was just like oh yeah cadre sounds dope yes wait that's an official term though it is an official term yeah cadre the training cadre so when we were at training cell because the instructors are kind of considered the buds instructors the guys are the basic training and and we didn't really want to be buds instructors we were the codres so and I never I didn't mean this is just this is just my own assessment I didn't make up cadre I didn't call ourselves cadre I didn't make

up training cell I wish I would have made up all those things but I just flowed into him as a lucky young new guy or actually at this point I wasn't a new guy anymore wait but it's true though right it's not like you just gave yourself a title that was no no no we're the car yeah yeah you go training cadre yeah yeah oh hey I need to talk to the guys in the cadre over here yeah that's what that's what we called ourselves right oh yeah so it's like what you know like let's you open a jiu jitzy gym and then you know you're teaching people and then you're like okay yeah I'm I'm the instructor and then you say you know what I like professor that's better yeah no it wasn't that it's not

I didn't make that no no no they called you know for years and actually I think Roger Hayden talked about it when he was on the podcast he was talking about when he was cadre so right it's been around forever right that's why just like professor it's like it's true it's you are the professor but it's like it just sounds better you know it sounds better so I'm going to go with that one just go with cadre yeah I like not even know what I was talking about oh so I was I was in the cadre for the first time and we went on a trip I went to a trip where they have good times to be had Where we were it was a place where there's some good training but there's also good times and You know I picked this up from Harley Flanagan this term which I had really heard wilding

Did you hear him say that he's like oh we were just wilding yeah, which I think is a better term than the term that we discussed Which was partying right right oh there's good we are partying yeah I like wilding better because that entails all kinds of other things a little bit more wild yeah a little bit more wilding out or what's they say wilding I never really heard it before he's but when harley I mean clearly you know what it is yeah yeah and it's in his book too he talks about wilding So we went to this place with a seal platoon where there was good training and good wilding to be had and I remember the first time that these guys You know we get there we work a little bit and then they're gonna go out in into the town And I remember thinking myself they've been in the field for a few days and they were all Fired up young frog man and I was thinking myself how is this even gonna work like there's no there's no possibility of this going well and it did you know everyone fine but you just see all these guys they're ready to

you know they're ready to explode and you're gonna they've been in the field they've dehydrated they've been in the field for four days or five days they're all dehydrated and they completed their operation they feel good about it now you're gonna let them out in town and it's yeah you got to be careful in those scenarios you got to put something yeah we we would you know sometimes you just say hey look yeah do whatever you want tonight but we're pting tomorrow at zero 700 so then everyone knows they can wild to a point but they can't yeah they got to put some kind of a governor some kind of a governor on the scenario here's a cool piece where dick winters you know he talks about talked about this before but just just a piece about his view of what america was doing

at the time back to the book the united states went to war not to conquer territory or to subject their fellow man but merely to liberate a conquered people from the chains of tyranny There is a certain nobility and all that today we are bombarded in the news media about how everyone hates America and how this country is deployed around the world World War II wasn't like that and I am proud to be a part of it So again I've said this a bunch of times you know we went there and and lost hundreds of thousands of of people in Europe and in and in the Pacific theater and we took nothing we only gave some thoughts on leadership from Dick Winters leadership leadership's defining quality is honesty to honesty add fairness and consistency I was able to develop a six cents during the war that allowed me to size up a situation rapidly I could look at terrain and be able to to see opportunities instead of challenges. By leading from the front,

I believe I achieved a high degree of success. So I thought that was a very, very interesting combination. Honesty, fairness, and consistency. You don't hear those a lot about being a great leader. I mean, I always talk about the number one attribute of a leader is humility. And I definitely believe that humility is important, but honesty, that's clearly, a thought and a concept of leadership that I think that misses a lot of people.

And we've talked about plenty of cases on the podcast here where we say, oh, what if this is going on? And I say, look, you want to be honest with them. You know, so I've definitely said that before, but I'm going to start saying it more because I'm learning a little something from Dick Winters today. But, you know, I remember we had a case where someone was saying, hey, I'm going to leave this job, or I'm going to take another job, and what should I do? Should I tell them?

Should I not? And we kind of went around and I was like look just tell them the truth just say look hey this is what's going on I'm going to be I've got a better opportunity I'm going to take it because and in the long run You're in the long run it's going to be you're going to be better off if you're honest with people and so Obviously to think about this quality It's something I've thought about but not as clearly as this as as as as Dick Winner saying that's the defining quality That's obviously important something that I will talk about more now definitely believed it but we'll talk about it more now if you've seen the movie band of

brothers or the series band of brothers they they do a good job of showing the beginning when they form up and there's a guy and there's a guy in leadership position called captain sobel and he's not a good leader and they do a good job of portraying why he wasn't a good leader in the series but here's what dick winters had to say about it back to the book captain sobel commanded through fear and intimidation. That is not how a leader should conduct himself. Sobel was not just unfair. He was mean-spirited.

His attitude created a special bond with an easy company that allowed the men to identify with their platoons more so within with the company, which is more normal in most military units. Second lieutenants, by their nature, are a clannish group. So you've got a company commander

and then he's got three, usually three platoons underneath him and each one of those is run by a second lieutenant. So these second lieutenants are the platoon commanders. Second lieutenants by their nature are a clannish group. Some are more serious than others, but for the most part, they wander around a military post, as General Heisenauer once said,

in a rather aimless search for excitement. Easy Company's platoon leaders, of which I was one, did our best to take care of our soldiers to soften Sobel's dictatorial behavior. I lost all respect for our commander the day he announced to the officers, an easy company, we will lead through fear,

not by example. That's just the opposite of any leadership principle that I could ever conceive is to lead through fear instead of example. Kind of like when your dad, well, I don't know about your dad, but if your dad says, or if you say to your kids,

do what I say, not what I do, you know that? Yeah, I've heard that before. For sure. That's, and if you want to put the fear onto that,

Let's do what I say, not what I do, or else. Or else, yeah, I'm going to get out the belt. Or the kids down south, they say, yeah, then I'm going to get out the switch. Yeah, get out the switch. My dad would say that out. Not all the time, but, you know, he said that before. He said switch? Where was he from?

That's from Brooklyn, New York. They ain't got no switches in Brooklyn, New York. I'm here to tell you. On Kauai, they do. On Kauai, they found some, huh? He made me go get my switch. He said, go get a switch. I don't know what that means, by the way.

this point oh because you're a little kid yeah go get and I'm from quiet they don't say switch you know apparently other people say switch I didn't know which made him kind of more mad so then he had to brief you on what a switch was yeah this is the thing I'm gonna beat you with it's kind of like digging your own grave in a way you know very similar conceptually yeah very similar yeah back to the book it made such an impression on me that I recorded his words in my diary under ordinary circumstances a junior company officer attempts to reflect his company commander's leadership style. But easy companies, lieutenants, found that they simply could not emulate the image of Sobel and still live with themselves.

Sabelle had no friends within the company and few within the regiment. At the end of each day, he went one way and we lieutenants one another hoping not to run into him at the officer's club. He lacked confidence in his own ability as an infantry command. He was he was completely honest, but he couldn't read a map to save his neck His knowledge of tactics and fire maneuver was extremely poor So horrible situation and you know this is this is one of those things where He's talking about how everyone no one wanted to hang around with him right and and I've heard leaders say A good leader's not gonna be like they're not gonna be loved by everyone and that that's there's some truth to that right of course not not everyone's gonna love you

But there's also a difference when no one likes you. Yeah, that you're not doing a good job. You're not doing a good job at all. And, you know, I hung out with all my guys all the time. Through the chain of command. Everyone wanted to hang out. Let's go. Let's hang out.

It wasn't running away from me at the end of work to escape. Yeah. That's not a good sign. Yeah. Like one guy said, I'm not here to make friends. Yeah, that's another classic, right? I'm not here to make friends. No.

But I actually, you know, there's, I heard, I've heard officers. Say that in the military seal officers. I've heard say look you're you and they'll say like it's not a popularity contest Which is not clearly you're gonna make decisions that are gonna be hard for people to swallow But to have people running away from you because they don't like you as a human being does not a good position to be in you're you're not doing a good job as a leader You need to reassess what you're what you're doing and how you're doing it and this is kind of reflective of of what Dick Winner's attitude was. Back to the book, Easy Company didn't belong to me.

It belonged to the soldiers. I was privileged to be a small part of its history. Officers and commanders in particular are merely caretakers. That the paratroopers respected me is more than enough reward. So there's just totally different attitude right and there's something weird that happens with the military you'll hear a guy it's a

contradictory state there's a dichotomy you'll hear a guy say my soldiers right or my Marines and there's two ways that that can be taken one of them is very positive my soldiers I am going to take care of my soldiers hey don't come down here and talk to my soldiers like that right or hey you know I need to make sure my soldiers have the gear that they need I need to make sure my Marines have and that's a they mean that in the best possible way There's another side to that which is completely negative which is These are my Marines meaning you own them meaning I'll do what I want with them right and so I've seen guys on both sides of that edge and you can hear a good you can hear a good leader say my Marines You can hear a good leader say my soldiers you're here a good leader say my seals and and and think of it a positive way And you can have a crappy leader say my soldiers my Marines my seals and you just think dude no

Stop and so for and especially when you get Dick Winters who is you know universally respected in his in in in the military and definitely in his battalion and his in his company and he's a guy that's saying look it was theirs that just tells you That's where your leadership perspective should come from. Yeah. I always felt that a better way that instead of saying my one of the few things as far as feelings go because I I experienced that a lot when people be like my this and that you know and it's I see what you're doing it's like you're just the boss and the owner of all this kind of thing you know kind of thing but with it felt like and feels like with people like my soldiers you know there is a lot of room for like because man these are my brothers I you know my guys but let's say they're talking about like something else like a big one um like the bartenders they used to work with every once in a while you'd

have one and say well i got this and you know my bar and when they talk to the customers you know they'll be like hey what kind of i don't know vodka do you have it goes well my best vodka is you know this and that then they'd say my you know kind of like i'm the master of this whole domain here everything here is mine and that i can bestow upon you kind of feeling yeah that always kind of well they do do it definitely in the military with inanimate objects not just soldiers and marines and sailors, they do it with inanimate objects. And you learn that in boot camp where they say, why are you on my parade deck?

Right. And it gives you this feeling of like, dang, this guy's really into this parade deck, meaning where you do marching. And they say, get off my parade deck. And it instills that kind of personal pride about something. So again, even that one can go both ways. Yeah, I guess it really,

you really have to understand what your intent is behind what you're saying and you have to be careful. I always, I feel subconscious about that. And I'll give you an example. My gym. Yeah. Right? My gym.

Yeah. When I talk about Victory MMA, which, you know, we have partners and it's not solely my gym. Yeah. But it's my gym where I train, right? But sometimes someone will say something and I'll feed, like, oh, where do you train? You know? And I could say, I train my gym.

You know what I mean? I feel like a real turd when I do that. I got all victory MMA and fitness, you know, yeah. Oh, Dean Lister, Jeff Glover, yeah, that's where I train. And, oh, wait, do you own that place? Yeah, yeah, I'm one of the owners, you know, blah, blah, blah. But, yeah, you don't like that. My.

Oh, you get to say. Just be careful. Just be careful with it. Be careful with that, too. I always thought if you said, our, you know, especially, even in a bartender situation, what we have, it's kind of like us as an establishment, you know, kind of thing. I'm part of that when you say, are, you're part of it, you know? So it kind of still puts that forward.

like I'm kind of giving this to you or offering whatever. I'm taking some ownership, but it's like I'm not the boss of this thing. It kind of feels that way. That's what I always thought. So even if you, like in your situation, if you're like, you know, someone's like, hey, doc, where do you train?

We say, well, at our gym, you know? Yeah. And it's kind of ambiguous as well, which kind of seems more humble, you know, where it's like, oh, yeah, you could be just a member, but at least you're part of that community, you know, kind of thing. So, yeah, use art. Got to be careful.

That's what we're going to know. That's all I'm saying is you got to be careful. Yeah, fully. Careful with my Marines my soldiers and again Sometimes that's the most positive thing you could possibly say These are my seals Hey don't come down here and think you're to put my seals out in the field in a bad situation not happening You know what I mean? You're protective they're your brothers you know you have ownership of them but it's not it's in the positive way

Yeah, as opposed to look I'll deploy my seals wherever I see fit like oh put a put a red flag on that dude's face Yeah Back to the book, I think of easy company every day. We sustained 150% casualties between the night that we jumped into Normandy and VE Day. 150% casualties. For those you that are wondering how you do that, how you do that is you have people getting wounded multiple times and coming back to the front. And when your replacements show up, they get wounded too. So you know you've got whatever 150 people in your in your company and over the course of time

People get wounded and leave and new people come in to take their place and they get wounded as well and that's how you get up over a hundred percent of your people being wounded The result of sharing all the stress throughout training and combat has created a bond between the men of easy company that will last forever in a sense I don't think I ever left company E I may never again see the type of men in this outfit, but to me, easy company will always be my company. In the sense that I will always remain a part of it. To this day, they remain my second family. I still look at these men with great respect. Respect I can't describe in words.

So there, he makes it same thing. Like he feels uncomfortable saying mine. He has to put a quantifier on it and explain. Hey, not in that sense, but I'll always be a part of it. That's why it's mine. More about leadership. Back to the book. Leadership is difficult to define.

They talk about leadership at West Point every day. Leadership starts with honesty, dedication, and having a man who is dependable and fair. If you never deviate from the standards that you establish, men have faith in you and you'll be out front to set the example Sergeant Talbert once told me sir I'd follow you into hell I take a great deal of pride in his remark so again we're getting this leadership starts with honesty dedication dependable and fair so important so important being fair and you know you see that a lot when it comes a doling out

punishment when people make mistakes are you fair are you fair Or not you know does that person really deserve to lose their pay for 90 days or go on bread and water or whatever kind of punishment you're gonna Bestow on someone is that fair and people know if things are fair or not Yeah, people know what's reasonable. Hey, do you think that you know when people say I'm I'm gonna make an example out of out of somebody? You know for sometimes it'd be it's four different reasons maybe like oh, I've been letting people slack so I got I got to make an example out of somebody to kind of reassessment the discipline kind of thing or maybe you know as a boss or whatever you really don't like this specific violation like you just it's just one of your things you know so you can make an example for that reason do you think that that's fair it can be but it's also a touchy subject

you tell me I personally think let's say I'd been given some slack and people have been showing up a little bit late showing up a little bit late and I'm kind of like hey man you know we need to be a little more in time and then finally on a Thursday guy shows up late for the meeting and I say hey you're suspended you're grounded you know you have to work this weekend

I punish them hard super hard that doesn't make sense right it doesn't make sense and people say oh you know I'm not it's not being consistent because people have been being late however if I was to say hey guys check it out Bill just walking in right now and I've been letting it slide and I'll tell you what

this is where it's getting us we've been later and later We start slacking here. We're going to start slacking in other places. We can't afford to slack right now. Our mission's too important. From now on, if you're late showing up to this meeting or you're late to an evolution that we're about to do, I'm going to drop the hammer. So don't be late. Is that fair?

Yeah. Fair warning. Explanation as to why. That's fair, in my opinion. Just going off the handle and smashing someone because you want to make an example of them, that doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. I don't like it. I don't do it.

Yeah, that makes sense. Can it be useful? Yes. If someone, if there's a clearly delineated expectation that's been set and it gets violated for whatever reason and you are going to crush and destroy to set an example. And actually we get to a point where he talks about that in here. There is an example set. And that has to send a message to everyone.

Yeah. That can do that. I've done that with my family. Yeah. Hey, here's the line. If you cross it, you will remember for a very long time that you made a bad decision. Yeah. And my other kids, when I've done that to some of them, you know, one of my kids that has made a bad decision, they all remember all of them.

Yeah. They don't want to make that mistake. Yeah, it seems like you. Don't want to cross the line. No, not at all. Like how you said, if you give them kind of ample warning where you kind of give them the tools to make their own decision kind of thing, even if you are changing a policy or whatever, you know, harsh for punishment, all this stuff. As long as, yeah, you warn them like how you're saying, that seems like fair. And a huge one, which I always kind of thought was if it applies to everyone.

You know, like if this violation, this punishment for this violation applies to everyone. Sure, it just happens to be this guy because he just happened. He happens to be the one that committed the violation or whatever. But this rule, this policy applies to everybody. Yeah. And also, when you explain these things, you don't blame them. If you notice, even when I just said, you know, Hey guys, I've been letting slack here.

You don't say, look, you guys have been slack. No, so look, I didn't make it clear why this is important. Yeah. And therefore, you guys have been, you know, I've been letting you slack. You guys have been showing up late. That's a problem. We can't have that problem anymore. So you just don't start pointing the fingers in everyone.

Yeah. And then hammering over harsh punishments. No, not a good idea. Speaking of leadership, back to the book. I believe that some men and women are born with the inherent qualities that make them good leader. Writing to his son John who is a cadet at West Point in 1943 General Eisenhower once said the one quality that can be developed by studious reflection and practice is the leadership of men I agree with Ike leaders are not born

leaders are made and they are made by solid effort and hard work So there's a little contradictory in there because he says look some people are born with qualities that make him a good leader But you can learn to be a good leader I totally agree with that I've always said that Some people have the qualities that make them a good leader naturally or they lot of some of them right Some of them will be really articulate some will be very charismatic very dynamic Loud have a lot of presence those are all characteristics that will differentiate in different people and if you have a lot of those you're gonna have a naturally Easier time being a good leader

Now occasionally you get people that have some of those qualities but they're idiots and those are the worst because they can get people to follow them even though they don't know where they're going Those are bad situations But it's interesting Hard work studying Right studying leadership I you know today I already learned something Need to increase my focus on honesty as a leadership quality But yeah I'm always studying always learning and we all need to be

That's how we're gonna become a better leader and a lot of the studying that I did when I was growing up in the teams Was just I was watching and thinking about why these leaders were doing what they're doing what is making them do this good leader why is wow why does that why do we respond to that well bad leader why don't we respond well to what he's doing I wasn't sitting there consciously thinking about it actually no in some cases I was actually consciously thinking about it you know consciously thinking wait why is no one want to follow this guy how is he acting that we all want to walk away from him why is that that happening and then when you get a good leader I'd say this why is this guy such a

good leader so yeah I guess I did consciously do that and study not from books but from life to try and learn and that's how you can become better here's a little note too and and you want to talk about holding the line if you aren't in good physical shape forget it you are not going to be a good leader well certainly in a military environment that is true are there some civilian leaders that aren't in the best shape yeah there are would those leaders be doing a better job if they were in better physical condition? Yes, they would. It's like that thing that starting strength, Coach Ripito says.

I post, I've never talked about it, but I posted, you know, he's talking about how physical strength is good. And people that say that physical strength aren't good, he says, you know, I forget the exact quote, but he's basically saying, I know physical strength is good. And if you take someone that says physical strength isn't good, and, you take someone that says physical strength isn't good and isn't important and then you add a hundred and twenty pounds to their squat and then ask them how they're doing now they're going to be doing better yeah they're going to be doing better the more you can deadlift the better you don't feel worse when you can deadlift

more you don't feel worse when you can squat more you feel better yeah what why is that there's a million reasons why confidence overcoming the challenge you're actually physically stronger your mental clarity goes up so yeah of course be in good shape being good shape if you're worried about your health you're not going to be able to focus on being a good leader and in the military or in any job where that demands physical exertion you have to be in good shape otherwise people are looking at you and you're falling apart you can't be falling apart on a patrol you can't be falling apart during a during a combat swimming operation where you you know you need to swim you need to

swim far you're gonna swim for four straight hours on a combat swimmer operation if you're weak and you can't do that you think your men are gonna respect you they're not I'll go in and answer that question for you yeah is that kind of like the hockey coach who doesn't even know how to ice skate you know there are coaches that have never participated in the sport that they coach and they're good they're I mean you can look at Greg Jackson who's a great mixed martial arts coach he's never been a mixed martial arts fighter yeah but he knows how to fight though you know yeah certainly does Yes, but he hasn't actually fought so how can he be a good coach

What about Duke Rufus he's never fought MMA has he? Oh MMA. I'm not sure yeah, we know he's a champion kickboxer, but how can he be such a great coach at MMA? Yeah, because you can connect the dots and stuff like that and of course There's you know there's exceptions to everybody generally speaking and plus you're talking about a little bit more of a broad thing like a leader like who who are we gonna like follow Yeah, yeah Plus because we're talking about coaches. I mean you coaches are not participating anymore. That's why they're coaching, right? So I guess those are really stupid examples.

Yeah, as far as coaches go. Because, you know, customato with Mike Tyson, obviously he wasn't getting in the ring with Mike Tyson, right? Yeah. But he's a great coach, a fantastic coach, one of the most, you know, one of the most respected coaches of all time. Yeah.

And the results are a little bit more, like, recognizable, like they're less ambiguous. Like a leader's results, quote, and full. Yeah, and we're looking at leaders in the field. Like leaders in the job that are leading a group to accomplish a, right that's different than a coach a coach is outside the group yeah yeah so we're talking about someone that's in the group yeah you got to be you got to be able to

maintain you got to be able to stay with your team physically and you know it's not like you need to be the best I was never the fastest guy was never the strongest guy but I wasn't going to be falling behind right on a patrol because I wasn't in good shape that wasn't gonna happen yeah and the only way that doesn't happen is you need to stay in shape how do you stay in shape got to discipline Yep. Yeah. These questions answer themselves at some point.

Maybe some point this podcast will just come on here and sit here in silence. Yep. Good idea. Now, speaking of, now this is, this is good that you were talking about this. Here is a heavy punishment handed out. Talking about Colonel Bob Sink, who was the leader of the 506th parachute infantry regiment. Here we go. Back to the book.

Colonel Bob Sink certainly was one of the best. He set high standards. and never compromised on those standards. After the paratroopers of the 506th parachute infantry regiment earned their jump wings, Sink granted a 10-day furlough, but cautioned the men to conduct themselves appropriately. Several paratroopers reported late for duty after their furloughs expired. Sink called another regimental formation and publicly humiliated one paratrooper from each of his nine companies. They called out the name of the last soldier to report to duty and that paratrooper was marched in front of the formation under escort.

An officer stripped him of his unit patch, forced him to unblouse his boots, and then escorted him from the field. What Sink was saying was paratroopers may be elite, but they had to follow the army's rules and regulations. I liked that. For some reason, Sink liked me, respected me. He was always the man instrumental in getting me my next job. So there's a heavy punishment. Now, that's a clear message being sent, right? Clear message being sent.

And I bet Colonel Sink at that time, Wade, mean he's got three, nine companies, So he's got hundreds and hundreds of guys Hundreds and hundreds of guys and he's gonna make an example out of nine of them And it's gonna be a real clear example and that's gonna leave an impression on a thousand guys You know close to a thousand guys That might be worth it and he probably judged that it was worth it. Yeah, so Interesting perspective yeah, I guess the question is is that fair? I would say I would say to the guys

That got booted from the regiment, I'd say their thoughts were that it was unfair. I would say for the guys that remained in the regiment that realized that they had to maintain the standard, that realized there was going to be no slack, and that worked hard to make sure they maintained that, and therefore were more prepared for combat,

I'd say it was real fair. Right. So a bigger picture kind of thing. They were kind of the martyr, you know, too. Yeah, like it's a real big picture thing. And who knows what kind of, behind the scenes. We would have to get some details.

If we were really going to cast judgment on that, like, you know, maybe some of those guys were kind of slackers anyways. Yeah, yeah. And the company commander was like, hey, dude, yeah, we don't want this guy. You know, let's get rid of this guy or what, you know? Yeah.

And he only took certain members of the people that missed their furlough. He said, that's not fair. He only took certain members or certain people that, that missed their furlough. Didn't take all of them. Yeah.

Just the last one to report. We don't, we don't take that around here. Yeah. It's an interesting dynamic. It's an interesting dynamic, but it's definitely showing... I don't know that I necessarily would have done that. I can... My assessment, I probably wouldn't have.

Yeah. Not one guy from each company. Maybe like the two guys that grossly violated it, I don't think I would need to do nine. Yeah. But guess what? Colonel Sink did. Savage.

Don't mess with Colonel Sink. And that's a good thing. Little, little... Kind of image for you to have. Don't mess with Colonel Singh. Don't mess around in the battalion in the regiment. We don't play. Another leader that he talks about here is McColliffe.

Back to the book, what we liked about McColliffe was that he allowed us to do our jobs. You didn't have a lot of interference from McColliffe. But with Taylor in command, this is another person, he told you what you needed to do here. He had to run everything. You can't do a good job if you don't have the chance to use your imagination and creativity In my mind Taylor was more interested in Impressing his superiors than watching out for his men Taylor was such a contrast with British general Montgomery

So he talks a little bit oh okay, so first of all clearly decentralized command don't give people the Clear specifics on how to do every little thing let them get creative let them come up with the solution Perfect boom we hear that over and over Why do we hear it over and over again? Because it's right. Because it's right. That's why we hear it over and over again. Now we talks about the famous British general Montgomery Monty who always gets portrayed a little bit stiff and a little bit British, right? And he says in here that the writers don't didn't know him didn't see him on the battlefield didn't see what he was like And here's what he says here's what Dick Winner said about Montgomery back to the book Montgomery was the real deal I saw him on a number of occasions and he always impressed me as a commander who lived the lifestyle that was beyond reproach for his staff to follow.

He set the example. He addressed every division that was scheduled to participate in the invasion. He called us together and had every soldier take off his helmet so he could see the troops better. Yeah, props to Monty, right? Going around and and talking to every every single division and then say hey boys take off your helmets I want to see your faces before you roll. It's legit props. There's you know this book a lot of this book is about self-discipline Even this part right here back to the book self-discipline keeps you doing your job Without it you lose your pride and forget the importance of self-respect in the eyes of your fellow men

Pride keeps you going on. This is what I feared I would lose the loss of the will to measure up to my men. So once you say, you know what, I don't care what my guys think anymore, you've lost it, right? If I say, look, I don't care what the guys think of me. Think of what a driving force it is to have your team looking at you and saying, I'm going to make sure these guys respect me and I'm proud of what I'm doing compared to, I don't care what anyone thinks to me anymore. And you can see, well, they can see what when this happens to people, not just in a military

or a business organization, but in life. Yeah. In life. At a certain point, you see a bum in the street. At a certain point, that bum said, you know what, I don't care what anyone thinks of me anymore. Yeah. I don't care what my family thinks to me.

I don't care what the society thinks of me. Yeah. Of course, I'm not talking about every single bum, but a lot of them. Yeah, I don't care. Generally, the thing. And as soon as you see that, you can imagine, that's just like a life thing, right?

Yeah. If you go through life and you say don't care what anyone else thinks, which is a contradiction for me, right? Because I'll say all the time, like, I don't care what people think. Yeah, but that's just to a degree. Like you, and it's obvious, just put a little bit of thought into you. You don't care about what people think, well, as it appears. You don't care what people think on a superficial level, you know, on a profound level. True.

You do. That's why you're, you know, that's why part of your morality is like, you know, fairness, doing the right thing, all this discipline stuff. it's for you, but in regards to social cues and all these things like that that's beneficial to your success to function in a society. Yeah, and I've said this before like about the SEAL teams

and me being in the SEAL teams and I had this completely had this attitude. I don't care like for instance, I don't care what happens. Like I don't care if I get fired. I'm going to do the right thing. I don't care. I don't care what they think of me. And at the same thing, at the same time, there's nothing that was more important

to me than my reputation in the SEAL I don't want you know if if something was gonna give you a bad rap it's like what we just talked about if you fall out of a patrol as a leader or as anyone like if you fall out of patrol You're gonna you're gonna you're gonna ever gonna forget it in the seal teams if you're too weak to do something You're gonna be remembered by that forever and that I didn't want that ever To be like oh jaco did this jaco couldn't finish the patrol jocco was a bad leader jaco I didn't want that to be the reality yeah and so therefore you work hard you stay in shape you do your best all the time yeah and that drives you yeah but at the same time I I wasn't saying oh I I'm concerned what my boss thinks of me so I'm gonna act a certain way no I was

trying to do the right thing right for the teams right see I'm saying no like these are these are all tubes those are all fundamental things yeah it's a weird it's a weird balance though to say look I don't care if I get promoted but I care more than anything about my job. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that definitely was my attitude. That definitely was my attitude my whole time I was in the military.

Look, I'm going to do the best job I can. I'm not doing it to get promoted. I'm not doing it for that reason. But I am part of it, absolutely doing it to have the respect of my peers and my bros and the teams. Right. You know, reputation, you hear that all the time. And reputation is everything in the SEAL teams because it's a small group of people.

You know, you have an accidental discharge with your weapon. Everybody knows about it. They're gonna know about it forever if you if you remain on the teams for whatever reason After you have an accidental discharge Everyone's gonna know it from there on out and it's not fun That's why we got Matt some jacked-up nicknames in the SEAL teams Because you're gonna get nicknamed after your lowest point in your life Your biggest mistake is what you're gonna get nicknamed or your biggest yeah

Like there was a guy and I his nickname was Bush and he's a great dude Mm-hmm His nickname was Bush had nothing to do with his last name, but anyways, long story short, when he was a new guy, and I knew him, this is 15 years later, I found this out. So he'd been in the SEAL teams for 15 years. I'd known him as Bush the whole time.

And he was parachuting. Brand new guy showed up to the team. They're like, hey, you're going jumping today. Okay, gets into aircraft, jumps, and he lands through no fault. You can't even steer these browned parachutes. You can't barely stare him. He lands in a bush with like thorns in it, right?

And I guess it looked pretty funny. And from there on, yeah, what's his name? Bush. Yeah. So you're going to get a name like that. But that's a really easy example because everybody knows, hey, that's just funny. It was more of a funny thing.

If something funny happens to you, you might get that nickname too. Like if you get pepper sprayed by the cops, you might have the nickname pepper. I like how direct it is. Yeah, there's no sense in playing around. What else are you going to call someone that gets pepper spayed by the cops

when they're a new guy? You're going to call them pepper. You call him wet eye or something Wet eye? Yeah, you know, because your eyes get all watery You're not gonna be in charge of nicknames over here Remember your guy that you thought his name was Al? Yeah, but it was owl. Yeah, Big Al 50 Cal

Not even his name. Yeah, not even his name big Al 50 cow. Yeah, morphs Is that awesome So that's why You have this weird Dicotomy that's pulling at you is just to you're looking at you're looking at you. I'm at your your friends your peers in this in leadership position it's your men you're looking at your men saying hey I don't want to let these guys down I don't want them to view me as weak yeah weeks a bad word but I guess it's the word I'm looking for

you know not that I not that I want to maintain the image of strength because part of maintaining the image of strength is by showing weakness right being like I say this all the time hey I don't know how to do this hey can you give me a suggestion I'm not talking about that type of thing I'm talking about weak physical physical weakness physical and mental toughness or physical and mental weakness right that's a lot different than hey I don't understand how to do something or or it's a lot different than humility you can you can want to show you can want to maintain strength but still have humility for sure yeah well I know all kinds I mean I know

tons of guys that are completely humble but they're the toughest bastard you'd ever want to know mentally and physically so I'm not talking about I need to be strong Stronger than everyone know. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about physical and mental toughness you have to have and if you don't have them as a leader could be problematic Yeah watch out for it back to the book the big thing I derived from combat was the necessity of maintaining discipline Discipline in our troops was Discipline in our troops and getting the job done in combat So clearly discipline's a big part of what we're talking about here Gee I wonder why now this is

Talking another little ass I don't talk about this a lot. I think it's inherent in a lot of things that I say, but it's not something that I don't use this word a lot. And again, I think I need to use it more. Back to the book, Character revolves around doing the right thing all the time. Character implies daily choices of right over wrong.

The cadet prayer at West Point says cadets strive to choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong and never to be content with a half truth when the whole can be one That gets to the heart of character I would add that it is easier to do the right thing when everyone is looking It is more difficult to do what you should do when you are alone I like to think of character as every other virtue at the breaking point So character doing the right thing Doing the right thing at all times

Doing the right thing when you're alone Back to the book war doesn't alter character War merely brings out the best that an individual has to offer Unfortunately it also brings forth the worst in some men If anything war exposes the best and worst of those who are called to fight I know of no man who lacked character in peace and then discovered character in combat So I've said this same type of thing before especially I mean war you know what we'd see on deployment is

As pressure starts to build on people you start seeing people go in two directions And that's what we'd see this their character would start to reveal itself they either get Very they'd rise to the occasion Or they would not and they'd go in the other direction and become worse their character would become worse or their character would become better That's what I've seen and the same thing you know we talk about people that have Maybe have a hard time dealing with war a lot of times there's some pre-existing issues That the war inflames right and then if you take someone that has that doesn't have pre-existing issues or maybe has a positive

spin on things that becomes more positive so it's It's very and then there's a bunch of people in the middle, but some of the guys that I knew that really had a hard time They had issues going in You know, they had problems some issues going in to the situation going into war and those problems get exacerbated By the pressure and the stress of combat So we need to watch out for that one I think I think war is more of an amplifier

than a creator I think it amplifies good character. I think it amplifies bad character I think it amplifies issues and in either direction. So it's a, it's a, it's a powerful element to add into people's lives. This, this big intense piece. Now, one of the things that this let, this book captures is these letters, he kind of had a pen pal. A female pen pal when he was at war. Her name is Deeta Alman. And one of the things that he, so they capture these letters.

And some of the letters, parts of some of the letters are published in here. Here's one of them. Back to the book. First and most important, I've got my own conscience to answer to. Next, my parents. And then I am an officer in the U.S. Army. I am damn proud of it. And with the rank and position I hold, I wouldn't think of doing anything to bring.

discredit to my outfit my paratrooper boots wings the airborne patch or the US army good morale within an outfit is usually reflected by good conduct away from it that sounds like an idealistic high school kid I know but that's it that's how I feel so he took that stuff very very seriously and I remember I remember broken the dirt pre-war I was in my third platoon and the the new guys who are all my bros now I mean these are just mugs but they were new guys and we were the senior older guys right because we've been in the teams for like a couple years and something happened and we gave like a like a like hey guys don't don't ever make the

Paltoon look bad like no matter what you don't make the platoon look bad that's not allowed The platoon is comes first above everything and This one I just remember saying but then one guy made the platoon look bad and he had to pay for it But that's the attitude the attitude is like look look look look look look look look We didn't really we weren't too concerned with the Navy back then we didn't really even feel like when I was that young in the seal teams that we weren't even thinking about the big navy We barely even recognized it We were in the teams. It's more,

as the teams became bigger and more prevalent, we connected more with the Big Navy. But when I was a new guy in the SEAL teams as a young guy in the 90s, we were pretty much on our own. So I wasn't, basically, I wasn't like sitting there thinking, hey, I need to protect the reputation

of the Navy, I didn't care. I would now as I got older I did. But back in the day, it was like, hey, in the platoon. And I was at Team 1 at the time, and Team 1. You don't make team one look bad. What are you doing? Don't make this platoon look bad You just did that. Yeah, you now you have to pay for that Punishment will be delivered at this time and it was

That's a that's a unfortunate situation. You know these things just happen from time to time So are we not going into what the punishment was that day the punishment? The punishment The punishment was I'll tell you what the punishment was Jocko punishment the punishment was the punishment was I am going to strike you two times in the face with an open hand. That's your punishment. Or we're going to fight. Which one do you want?

That was the punishment. Yeah. He and this guy was like, I'll take the two. Yeah. And I was like, Roger that. And there was a little bit more tension than that, you know? Yeah, fully. That's really that.

Because he was kind of like bowed up a little bit. Yeah. And I was like, oh, if you want to get it on, we'll get it on. Yeah. And then, and, you know, it's funny because these guys, this group of guys who was, they were, they were all guys just trying. Trying to get after it and be good team guys, but we were just crazy, you know, at this point.

And the teams was literally everything in my life. So when I was like mad about disrespecting or making the platoon look bad, it like hurt me. I was that crazy that I just didn't want the platoon to look bad. You know, and you did something that made the platoon look bad. Yeah.

It bothered me. It really truly bothered me. You made something that made Team One look. I mean, I'd been there, you know, since I was a kid. And it was everything to me and so when you didn't when you made us look bad I wasn't happy and not just I wasn't happy because I was a jerk or I wasn't because I was being a jerk at the time but talking these guys you know years later

he talked to these guys they're like yeah that guy in particular was like I hated going to work I hated you guys and I was like yeah I'm sorry you know and and then they'll be like but I'm glad it was like that because everybody has that feeling it was the old school it was like with the old breed you know hey this the way it is this is we hold the line we don't make the platoon look bad we make the tune look good we work hard that's what we do it's like a little gang yeah that's all it was yeah that's crazy those two choices because they're like they're just different because some people would rather go do the fight

because you know at least they they kind of go down swinging kind of attitude but the the potential for damage is way more in a fight you know what I'm saying but and then actually I agree with you and you could see where you can make a case for of those selections, but there's also something cool. It's like, I'll take two hits to the face. Open hand, cool. I'm a man. I screwed up.

I think that's the reason I respected it was because it was like, yeah, I did screw up. Right. So I'll just take it. And I'll take it. I deserve punishment. Give it to me. Yeah. And that was that.

Yeah. And then we move on. No factor. Yeah. Technically the two to the face is way easier because it's way quicker. You know, you know what to expect kind of thing. I mean, unless you're scared of like, oh, we're hitting. your head and dying or something, you know, some off-tranced thing.

They were open hand, though. They were open hand. Yeah. See, so you're not going to knock anybody out with open hand. Yeah. Well, usually you're not. You know, maybe I could. I'm just kidding. But, yeah, so a lot of that is like that, how you say you were kind of building some tension with it. It's like, that's a big part of the punishment as well. That's psychological, like, torture. And this also reveals my own personal immaturity, right? These are, this is, like, seriously, this is, what I'm thinking about it, this is just an immature, you know, I was probably 22 years old, maybe 23 years old, but you know young and immature and not getting the best guidance, not understanding things, not understanding that I wasn't helping build a cohesive

unit, not understanding that this guy's probably thinking, oh, I don't want to help him. You know what I mean? It wasn't smart. I'm not trying to say that this stuff was smart. I'm telling you the reality of the way it was. And the way it was in my head was, hey, this is my life. Yeah. This single platoon, I know it's, it's.

It sounds crazy. This seal platoon that we're in is my whole life and I actually don't care about anything else. Mind you, this is in the 90s. There's no war going on. I'm just a young, crazy kid and the only thing I know and the only thing I care about is the seal teams. And, you know, you make the platoon look bad. This platoon is my life. And you just made us look bad.

And I can't stand that. And I don't want it to be that way. So young, immature, me. What do I do? Hey, there's got to be punishment. You know, and that's kind of the attitude we had. And there are some benefits to it, but, you know, it's how we, if I would love to go back and be a better mentor and be like, hey, man, this is the mistake you made. You know, I would love to do that, but you can't.

You're a dumb. I was a young, dumb kid that was raised that way, by the way as well. That's how we were raised. And there are some benefits to it. And like I said, even those guys that did. tunes with me when I was quote unquote an old guy even though we were nothing we'd never been to combat we were meaningless but we had a couple more years in the seal team so therefore you're an old guy and the new guys are anyone with with no deployments which is actually pathetic in its own

right because the term in the seal teams being oh you're a new guy that was some from guys that were in Vietnam that you hadn't been in combat yet so you're a new boy you're a cherry boy so guess what I was a cherry boy for 13 years because I never shot my weapon at the enemy. I didn't been in combat until I went to my first deployment to Iraq. So it was actually, from that perspective, it's embarrassing because here I was big, you know, I'm an old guy. I was an old guy. I never been to combat before. What am I talking about?

Yeah. But you take what you had at the time, which was this organization, the SEAL teams, my platoon. And again, you can't, I can't describe really how important the SEAL platoon was to me. It was my, well, let me put it this way. It was my whole life. There you go. What I do when I woke up in the morning went in went into work worked out with my seal platoon mates.

What do we do? Then we worked all day. What do we do for lunch? We ate together. What do we do at night? We went and got dinner. What do we do after that? We went to do after that.

We hung out all night. What do we do after that? We went to sleep. Woke up and did the same thing day after day. That was my family. And you just have this this this passion for your family and you it just meant it was the most important thing in the world to me for my whole adult. life. But when you take that and you put that on a you know young kid yeah and you know

everyone's like oh yeah Jocco's he he's a big reader I wasn't reading anything back then I was reading the the platoon handbook right I wasn't reading I wasn't reading Shakespeare sure yeah I what was I doing in high school I wasn't paying attention during high school I was wanting to be a commando I was running through the woods pretending I had a machine gun so you take that kid and you put him in a situation where the thing that he cares about the most has been Scorn violated or scorn he's gonna try and handle it yeah the best of his ability start slapping people So again not proud of it but occasionally some people that slapped around Yeah, that's how though you know you know when you're a basic young basic guy you can handle things in a young basic kind of way

Yeah yeah whatever it's it's caveman yeah caveman scenario there you And the other thing is, and you know, those guys that were in those early platoons when I was, like I said, a quote unquote, years later, they're like, yeah, that was awesome. So glad I got raised that way. They're proud of it. Yeah. You know? But at the same time, you, you, when I look back on it, I know I was not a good leader, right? By any stretch.

Yeah, that's kind of like when I look at my old videos, you know, at the time I'm like, yeah, they were dope, you know, but you're like, yeah. You just know better ways now, you know, you're just better now. Yeah. You know, hindsight 2020. Yeah. And then the other thing that you got to be careful of is setting the bar, like, let's say I was in a seal platoon right now. And now I'm going to set the bar so high that I lose track of the, lose vision of the fact that, like,

hey, the guy that I'm trying to convince right now is a 23-year-old thing and the most important thing in his world is, this is funny. Like, I was talking to someone the other day and I was like, I couldn't remember what sequel platoon what the phonetic letter of a certain seal platoon I was in a certain time I was like yeah I forget what platoon that was and to me at the time when we were in those single platoons that letter of that phonetic alphabet we were in an alpha platoon that was it and now I look back and it's like oh yeah what platoon was that because as I matured and as I saw the rest of the world I realized that even though a seal platoon is very important and certainly it's the most important thing

when you're in it when you're in a task unit or you're overseas and there's multiple people running around and there's huge missions going you you you hope your mind gets opened up yeah and you see more and the the little thing that you used to be so engulfed in your head becomes becomes less that's all there is to it yeah now I'm telling you guys in the seal platoons there's no better job like it's the best thing in the world and I'm sure you know I never served in a in a Marine Corps infantry or in a in a army US army amtree platoon but I saw them I saw what they were like and they have that same You know bond that that you get from being in those tough units

So there's something very cool about that about being a grunt Yeah, which is what you are in the seal teams you might think all the special operations or whatever You're a grunt you carry a machine gun Yeah, and you do hard things that's what being a grunt is you're doing hard things you're carrying a bunch of weight around mm-hmm those days love those days yeah all right so I just want to be back in a seal that's so bad yeah he kind of so fun so awesome yeah so awesome so meaningful I would have fought you yeah yeah you would have happened you know what would have happened I don't know I don't know bro wait that was

one of the good things about knowing a little tiny bit of jiu jitsu which I actually knew a little bit Yeah, that was enough. Yeah, you can offer to fight guys with, you know, with confidence. Because what if you offer to fight them and they kick your ass? You're like, dang, that backfired. And here's the thing. They didn't know any better. All they thought was, they didn't, I don't think I ever said, like, I know Jiu-Jitsu and you don't.

But it was just, I was so confident. Like, oh, I actually know this and I know that I can choke this dude, that they just said, you know what, this guy's probably going to kick my ass. Yeah. And the weird thing is, there's probably guys a long way that could have kicked my ass. You know, some kid that wrestled in high school, all double leg, boom. And now I'm slammed on the ground and getting punched in the head. I can't, you know, it's lesson not learned.

Yeah, lesson not learned. I'm lucky that never happened. I know. So, check. All right. Here we're talking about, so I just was talking about, this is interesting. So I was just talking about mental strength and physical strength. Well, here we go.

Back to the book. Moral courage is a far rarer commodity than physical courage. In that, I agree with Patton. I have known many officers who were physically brave, but who did not have the intestinal fortitude to organize the chaos around them. Those officers who were the most vocal about what they were going to do to the enemy often were the first to fall apart when the chips were down. Fear is not only debilitating, but its existence also destroys the cohesion of a command.

It is the responsibility of a commander to identify the limits of courage, break the paralysis of fear, and motivate his soldiers to continue with the mission. Courage conquers fear. I like just that part. And I don't think I did this in helmet for my pillow. There was a part in helmet for my pillow that I pulled out when I was talking to one of my seal buddies. And I was, because he listened to it. He said, yeah. And I was telling him this one part that I didn't put in the podcast.

And I sent him a picture of it from the book, this little paragraph. But it's basically one of the instructions. One of the drone instructors was all yelling about we're gonna kill and blah blah blah and then he says yeah the next time I saw him We were in you know on island in the fight and he was getting taken away after breaking down So this is what he's saying here a lot of guys that are the loudest about what they're gonna do to the enemy Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay you're talking a big game, you know, but what's really good say that happened? You know what's really good? You know where else that happens? Yeah, right? MMA. Yeah, MMA it happens. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna crush that guy and the other guy sitting there going okay bring it

Yeah or he's in the locker room like explaining to all his teammates. Yeah, I'll just I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that and it's almost like yeah It's weird trying to they're trying to convince themselves So that's what that's going on here same thing right some of that's trying to convince themselves They're not confident in themselves Back to the book I suspect every soldier at one time or another experience is a degree of fear Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the will to rise above fear and do the things you know need to be accomplished all soldiers hope that they will measure up the first time they get into a fight I certainly was no exception

but I believe I had prepared myself very well that once I came under fire I knew instinctively what needed to be done I think I was more apprehensive particularly before D-Day than I was afraid maybe apprehension is the first stage of fear. I'm not really sure. You have to remember that easy company was an elite unit, as were all paratroopers. We had trained for nearly two years before we jumped into Normandy. I think I saw far more excitement in the eyes of my men than I did fear. After Braycourt, we felt as if we were seasoned veterans, even though we knew worst days were ahead. That apprehension, and definitely my first deployment to Iraq when you had all these guys bro the guys were so fired up to get it to do real missions and get after it that I think it was much more excitement than it was fear especially in the beginning and in the beginning you know there was a lot of casualties going on we were kind of dominating and you know even showing up to Ramadi same thing guys like sign me up what mission I'm going yeah and the more you you spend time in that

the more you realize what the threat is and you start losing guys or having guys getting wounded, that's when you start saying, okay, wait a second, I'm not sure I want to die today. And then guys got to overcome that on a daily basis. Speaking of fear, Steve Ambrose, who's a military historian, rent a bunch of books, including Bander Brothers. Steve Ambrose says that heavy artillery bombardment will make even the most seasoned veteran eventually break. I disagree. A leader has to overcome fear. Convince himself that every enemy shell or bullet is not targeting him.

The same is true in a company or a battalion. Leaders must ensure that strength and cohesion is a stronger force than fear. This is especially true in men who have been scarred by prolonged combat. Ambrose was correct when he titled the chapter in Band of Brothers' Breaking Point, as he describes the horrendous artillery barrage that in front. so many casualties on Easy Company in the boy Jacques. Company strength was below 50%, and many of the non-commissioned officers

were killed or wounded. Without direct supervision by leaders, Easy Company, as well as the remainder of the battalion, could have easily been debilitated by an increased sense of morality and fear. That is precisely why I made it a point to visit the front lines as often as possible, Soldiers need a sense that their leaders and commanders are in the game with them.

Leadership by example is even more important in these situations. I noticed that when men are at the edge of their physical endurance, you tend to develop that 1,000-yard stare that you always read about. Tired soldiers will often take off their helmet and run their fingers through their hair. We talked about that before, and I talk about that quite often now. At times, they literally dropped their helmets on the ground. This soldier is already losing his self-respect. The battle is half lost.

That's a sign for the commander to take immediate action. I didn't wait for the trooper to reach that stage. I proactively looked for these signs. Every soldier wants to do the right thing. You always know the proper thing to do, but doing it is sometimes more difficult. I never wanted a man to lose his self-respect. That's what I was talking about earlier, this idea of self-respect.

When you don't care, because you know, you get supposed to keep your gear on all the time. That's like just the code, right? You keep your gear with you all the time. You keep your gear on all the time. The minute you take that off is where you start, hey, I don't care what these guys think anymore.

Something has happened that has made you say, you know what, I don't care what these guys think anymore. And that's not. Good. Yeah. And again, this is such a contradiction because you know, we can sit here and talk about like, hey, I don't care what people think and I mean that. I mean that. You shouldn't care what people think. But at the same time, it should be extremely important to you what people think and what your comrades think. And that's such a weird dichotomy. I don't think I don't fully wrapped my hands around how to describe that yet and what that means. I'll get there eventually, hopefully. Sure. But but that is a very important thing. And I've always felt like I don't care what people think. But at the same time, I'm I deeply care what my peers think and my men think. Weird dichotomy. Yeah, I think that's a core values thing, though.

It's like you have these core values and that's what you care about, you know, what you think about it, what everyone else thinks about. And then anything beyond that is just superficial fluff. Like, if you don't match your socks or something like this. I think what the key principle here, the part that may help bring this together for me is I want to be doing the right thing. Yeah. Right? And so if I'm doing the right thing and people say, oh, Jock was, you know, that's, that's, that's stupid what Jock was doing or he shouldn't be doing that.

But I know in my heart I'm doing the right thing. Yeah. I'm going to continue doing it. I don't care what you think. Yeah. There you go. But at the same time, if I know I'm doing the right thing and other people are, are judging me, that's going to keep me in line. If I will, let me, let me rephrase that.

If I feel like I'm going to do the wrong thing, I do care what people think. Yeah, yeah. And I don't want them to. Thank all Jocco is getting weak getting soft getting you know whatever yeah he's doing the wrong thing He's making the wrong move mm-hmm very strange that's the that's the dichotomy of leadership, right? Mm-hmm or one of them actually it's not really the dichotomy of leadership that's just a That's just the dichotomy in life yeah life yeah now there's a A guy named lieutenant Compton who kind of breaks a little bit and they show it in them in the you know

in the band of brothers movie and they eat dick winners talks about it here back to the book before you go on I know you think I'm too hard on lieutenant Compton for walking off the line at Bastone let me explain myself buck that's Lieutenant Compton was nicknamed Buck and he walked off the line Buck was a great combat leader he was a superb platoon leader in Normandy and Holland in fact I would say he was one of the best at Bastille He broke after some of his friends were seriously wounded in the constant artillery barrages There is a danger of getting too close to the men and Buck crossed that line When you see your friends getting maimed it makes it more difficult to go on

That's why I always maintained a certain detachment from the paratroopers an easy company Am I too harsh on buck? Maybe but a leader needs to rise above fear The easiest thing to do is quit. And then the author asked, why didn't you crack? And Dick Winner's responses, I'm Pennsylvania Dutch. I don't quit. I made a commitment. Moral courage is based on physical fitness.

Courage is a combination of willpower and determination. And determination. I was an excellent physical shape. I don't think there was a man in that outfit. who's in better shape than I was and it showed I had trained hard in England after we finished training I would run at night blackout conditions but I would run then I'd come in and go to bed I was in maximum shape that was the physical side of things but there is a mental aspect of stamina as well I've always prided myself that I do

my own thinking I have my own philosophy I have my own answers to the reasons things have turned out in my life by taking full accountability accountability for my life I've been able to meet the standards that I set for myself I don't know any other way of saying it every commander must take full accountability for his actions stand up and be counted as a commander you are accountable for everything that your outfit does or fails to do don't worry about who receives credit when things go well don't play the blame game in my case the mantle of command provided me with the courage to succeed.

Yeah. Extreme ownership. That's what he's talking about. You know, personal accountability. That's what he's talking about. Being in great physical condition. That's what he's talking about. That's discipline.

You know, I guess as we read this, and I, you know, I didn't read this book until a week ago. Yeah. A week ago, I read this book. So it's not like I read this book and said, hey, personal accountability is the most important thing about, you know, being a leader. No. This guy came to the same conclusion in World War II that I came to in conclusion in my experience in the military.

Now he starts talking a little bit about combat fatigue. How much combat fatigue there was. In Normandy, I witnessed lots of stress. Some in Holland, much more in Bastogne due to the intense cold, lack of sleep and inadequate clothing. In Belgium, combat fatigue reached astronomical proportionate. We had spent 70 days in the front lines in Holland and didn't have time to recover before we boarded the trucks to take us to Bastogne On reflection, I realized what happened by the time the command arrived at Bastogne The men had been on the front line since Normandy

Men were exhausted no hot food little sleep no rest constant tension and intense pressure from combat They were physically exhausted Inclement weather and constant rain and snow made matters even worse Physical exhaustion leads to mental exhaustion which in turn causes men to lose discipline The loss of self-discipline produces combat fatigue over and over again over and over again we hear that How important is discipline? It is the most important thing and if discipline is what gets people through these situations through combat stress, through tension, through bombs, through artillery, through freezing cold, lack of food, lack of sleep. Imagine what discipline can do in like a normal person's life.

Back to the book, how can you possibly compare a man who's been under just one concentrated artillery bombardment for five minutes to a place like Bastogne, where he could be in the line for weeks or months? In one of Ambrose's books, he states that prolonged artillery bombardment will break any soldier. In civilian life, of course, we refer to combat fatigue as a mental breakdown. That is exactly the way it is in combat. It's a mental breakdown. The intensity, it becomes a problem for me to express my feelings here, but I'd like to share it with you. The intensity of a fire or a heavy concentration, to be a leader, you have to be able to concentrate on that fire and move just as soon as it stops or the last rounds hit. Move.

Get up. Start circulating among your men. Is everybody okay? Let's get up. Let's move. Keep your eye open for an attack. Get their attention. Move among your men as quickly as possible.

And moving among them, the fact that they see you and they're talking to you, they know that you are there and you are talking to them. And it makes all the difference in the world to know that you are not in this thing by yourself. That's what officers must do. Break the cycle of fear. If a soldier is concentrating on his own feelings and on his own fear and he sees you moving around He realizes that you're sharing the burden with him That's why he can then move So that's very important and that's you know again that can apply to combat that can apply to business

People are gonna start panicking what are they gonna do and they start panicking you and the leader as the leader need to step up get out there talk to people find out what's going on tell them that we're gonna move Do you show them that you're not afraid and that you are afraid but you're still functioning lead by example plain and simple back to the book courage will be spent if you relax your standards an undisciplined soldier feels isolated and alone maintain the standards don't compromise your integrity never get up give up don't ever give up I love this right here there is always one more thing that a leader can to improve his situation and that of his command I always felt that a leader's physical presence was indispensable to unit cohesion and morale this is why

captain sobel failed so miserably leadership by example always trumps leadership by fear there's always one more thing that a leader can do to improve his situation and that of his command is always one more thing you can do and an undisciplined soldier feels isolated and a alone they know they've given up that self-respect how you're gonna give it back to him when your men are dying and you do not you feel ashamed I don't know any other way of saying it soldiers in war certainly in World War II and I suspect in every war are generally young men in their prime they meet death daily and in

every form they fully realize the hazards of their profession they take chances because no young man expects to die before middle age when the first soldier dies that belief in immortality is shattered as casualties mount and the core of the unit grows fewer the remaining soldiers grow even stronger often shutting off replacement soldiers they don't want to know the replacements because they are often the first to die when I saw one of my men wounded I was happy that he had a ticket home a soldier killed in battle was at peace he had lived his life among men whom he had loved grieved consolation and knowing that my men had lived rather than regretting

that they had died a soldier's real fear is not losing his life in combat but placing his comrades in jeopardy that's why ordinary men were perform in extraordinary ways to ensure that their buddies survive. So this is another level of, you know, war. When you're actually, and I never was at this point by any stretch, where you're looking at men that get wounded and saying, oh, lucky him, he's got to take it home. We just weren't under that,

beneath that kind of casualty level. So when guys were getting wounded, it was, you know, it was hard. It was, you didn't feel like, Oh, that lucky him he's got to take it home Because there wasn't enough guys getting wounded to make you think that way And not enough guys getting killed to make you think that way Small percentage

That's reaching a whole new level Back to the book, if you have selected the right personnel Then a leader must instill discipline I mean perfect discipline As Patton once said, Discipline is the soul of the army General Washington said the same thing When he described the Continental Army in 1776

Discipline is manifested in how how well a soldier keeps his uniform, how frequently he cleans his weapon, and the pride he has in his unit. Joe Hogan of Easy Company speaks for all of us on the subject of pride in Company E. During an argument with a soldier from another company about whose company was better,

Joe said, My Company E will lick your company in 15 minutes. And if you wait until the guys who are AWOL come back, we'll do it in five minutes. And this is important. Unit pride leads to unit discipline. So again, now we're going back to the feelings that I had when I was a young kid in the SEAL teams. Total pride in my platoon.

And this is funny because you're saying like, look, the guys that are gone right now, they're AWOL, they're absent without leave. If you wait for them to come back, we'll be getting this done in five minutes. But, you know, I feel like this unit pride and unit discipline and how they go together. it's like a gang I don't know why I think of it this way and I talked about this at the muster it's like a gang mentality when you start policing yourself up right

when I was in a single platoon it wasn't our bosses that were trying to keep us in line we kept ourselves in line you didn't want to get outside you didn't want to do something wrong because we were gonna get

policed up by the boys the E5 Mafia is what we were so the E5 mafia that's a real thing by the way the E5 Five mafia in a seal platoon, you got the senior guys. There's like the platoon, the platoon chief, the leading petty officer.

Those are like E6, E7, and you got the assistant platoon commander. Those are like the, they call them the top four. Those are the guys that kind of run. They're the actual leadership. And then you got the nugs. And then in the middle of the pack right there, you got the E5s. They're the guys that are actually running things and making things happen. And the E5 mafia is what we call them.

And then at a seal team, there's an E5 mafia that all works together to make things happen. But with the E5 Mafia, if you've got a good unit, that E5 Mafia, they're policing up everything. And you don't need to, as a leader, you just need to make sure that they don't take it too far is the only thing you need to make sure of. But they're going to make sure guys are doing the right thing. They're going to make sure that they're performing well. They're going to make sure that they're in good shape. They're going to make sure of all those things. And this was an interesting quote.

What you tolerate, you condone. So again, extreme ownership. Written by myself and Laif Babin. Well, Leif Babin wrote a line in there. It says it's not what you preach. It's why you tolerate And he hadn't read this book and here it is what you tolerate. You condone to saying the exact same thing If you let standards start to slide you that's what you're done. That's the new standard of course There's a little bit more to leadership than what we've talked about so far back to the book leading in battle is the art of dealing with human nature and the human condition. I can't speak of higher command,

but I know a few things about leadership at the small unit level. Leadership at all levels wins wars, but soldiers at the platoon, company, and battalion levels win battles. I think this is particularly true in a national army where soldiers need to understand the reasons behind the officer's orders. We have to know why we're doing what we're doing. Would I have succeeded had I been promoted beyond battalion? I don't know.

I do know that I felt comfortable at the small unit level. This is one reason why Easy Company holds such a tender place in my heart. I knew the strengths and weaknesses of every paratrooper. I could rapidly ascertain what I wanted to do and felt confident that I could convince the men to do it. After commanding Easy Company in Normandy and Holland, I know that the men felt comfortable and trusting their lives to my care.

I'm not bragging because it's not my nature to do so. I'm stating fact. Knowing that I would never ask them to do anything that I wouldn't do myself led to Easy Company's confidence in me as a leader. They knew that I would never quit and that I would do everything within my power to bring them home after the war. I'm proud when I hear a paratrooper from Easy Company or Second Battalion remark about my courage under fire and my willingness to share their hardship.

I told you once that wars do not make great men But war sometimes bring out the greatness in good men Human nature That's what it is and you know that's sort of how I describe this podcast now an exploration of human nature and if you want to see Human nature reveal itself and its most clearest form You have to go to war to look at that or other very strenuous situations harsh situations upon returning from the war here's what major winters had to say back to the book the war changed me I returned to the states bitter a different man

than the young man who had listed in the army in 1941 I was hardened when I returned first impressions were more important than they had previously been I looked at things differently when you return from a wartime environment you have to adjust to society the life that you are going to be sharing with others just to make a living though I was comfortable in a combat environment I wondered if I would feel at home among civilized people who wouldn't be able to understand how a soldier thinks and feels I came to understand that I would have to make changes to be accepted into life at home this takes time and it's never easy

While on the front lines in prolonged combat, I often wondered about my friends back in the States, old friends I had grown up with, some of whom had avoided coming over, either by becoming conscience and subjectors or working in war-related factories that the federal government had declared essential. I understand everyone doesn't have to share my belief that military service is the only form of service in wartime, but I took immense pride in my contribution to the war effort. We who fought the war were part of something noble. Military service is an honor, a privilege. Funny thing is that when I finally returned home, I had no desire to pick up with those friends who managed to skip the whole thing. I completely shut them out. I wouldn't come downstairs when they knocked on the door.

Even today, when I look at a man or woman, I can't help but judge them. Does he have leadership capabilities? Would she be good in combat? Does he or she have what it takes? And I think, you know, clearly when you come home, those are things I think everybody goes through. Of you're looking at people, you're kind of judging people. It certainly will leave a mark.

I'll tell you, I don't think there's enough veterans now. You know, you're not going to be able to just hang around with veterans. It's not going to happen. You got to understand and accept the fact that not everyone served the way you served. That's just the way it is. And I try to make sure that I don't outwardly hold people to a higher expectation. And the other thing is, I think you have to walk a fine line and you got to make sure you're not looking down on people because they didn't choose the path that you chose. Now, World War II is different because, or at least appears to be different because it was so easy, so many people went on the path of, okay, you know, December 7th happened, I'm going to sign up tomorrow, today, whatever.

And I think that the way these wars that we've been fighting have gone down, it hasn't been the same. It's been different. And I think we veterans right now have to use some caution before just shutting out everyone else that didn't serve the way we, did we'd be shutting out basically you probably be shutting out most of the people in your lives most of my friends outside the seal teams there are you know jiu jitsu got a bunch of friends from jih Tzu none of them served I can't just shut them all out so I think we have to be careful about that as as veterans to make sure we you're going to have those feelings understood understand that there's more than that and you got to you got to accept other things going on

the world besides what we did another letter that dick winners wrote to Deeta Allman going back to the book when you're an officer you are responsible for the lives of soldiers in your command you think about kids like this one paratrooper I knew well and you soon become old beyond your years in the three years since I had entered the army I'd aged a great deal it seems as it if college days and days of civilian life when I did as I pleased are long past I must have been it must have been a dream a small and short but beautiful part of my life now all I do is work work to improve myself as an officer work to improve them as fighters as men make them work to

improve themselves the result is I am old before my time not physically old but hardened to the point where I can make the rest of them look like undeveloped high school boys old to the extent where I can keep going after my men fall over and sleep from exhaustion I can keep going as a mother who works after her sick child and exhausted child has fallen asleep old to the extent where if it's a decision or advice needed my decisions are taken as if the wisdom behind them was infallible yes I feel old and tired from training these men to the point where they are efficient fighters I hope it means that some will return to those girls back home and again the reason I put that in there is because

there's that's that's a that's pressure right that's the certain amount of pressure that a person that's been in the military has felt and it's real that pressure and his wife said dick fights the battle the bulge virtually every night he had recurring nerp nightmares so even dick winters you know a very thoughtful and squared away guy was still living those nightmares virtually every night his wife said dick also said back to the book I know I did everything within my power to ensure as many soldiers made it home from the war as possible But when you survive and your soldiers don't you feel guilty. It haunts me to this day that I lived and so many of my paratroopers died.

As the veterans of Easy Company pass on, I am reminded of those who never returned from the war. I see their faces. You can almost hear them calling me. I think that everybody that served and survived when your friends and your brothers didn't, You're always going to have that and it's not going to go away. Big Winters, Major Dick Winters died January 2nd, 2011. Obviously they had a memorial service, a big memorial service for him. Back to the book, those who remained alive voiced their sympathy.

Said former platoon sergeant William Grenier, who had lost a leg outside Bastogne. Dick always said hang tough and follow me When he said let's go he was right in the front He was never in the back a leader personified He was the best commander we ever had We'd have followed him anywhere Edward Babe Heffron who served alongside winners at Bastogne and who helped liberate Hitler's Eagles nest added he was one hell of a guy one of the greatest soldiers I ever was under He was a wonderful officer a wonderful leader.

He had what you needed. Guts and brains. He took care of his men. That's very important. Popeye Win added, it seemed as if he always made the right decision. He was a real soldier. He was one of the best. Started with him doing the right thing.

I don't know how he survived the war, but he did. Another easy company veteran concurred, noting every one of us, we'd follow him. hell that's the type of guy he was and also speaking at that ceremony was a guy by the name of Eric Jendrenson who was the screenwriter one of the screenwriters for band of brothers and he was trying to get the screenplay and the series to be as accurate as possible and so he spent a lot of time with Dick Winters and he got to know him very well and I found what he said about Dick Winters to be very important here we go back to the book Dick Winners made it his

personal quest to excel whether it was executing the perfect push-up or training himself to run three miles up and down Currie Mountain this pursuit was his private tool his solution and it was that solo effort that obsessive clarity and pure determined self-contained purpose that is men observed and that caused them to follow when he said simply follow me not just through that hedgerow in Normandy and across that field in Holland under enemy fire but follow my example follow my commitment and we'll get through this then we will succeed Dick Winters was laid to rest in his family plot in evangelical Lutheran cemetery

in Afrata, Pennsylvania, the Saturday following his death. And his gravestone reads simply, Richard D. Winters, World War II. 101st Airborne, 1918 to 2011. Dick Winters, before he died, said, I am the man I am today because of Easy Company. Easy Company made me As I reflect upon my life since the war I can honestly say that it has been a lifetime search for men Like those I knew in Easy Company

I haven't found too many I don't think I know braver soldiers than Joe Toy Bill Guineer or Floyd Talbert I live with these guys every day I mourn when they pass Carwood Lipton died in December 2001 his death struck me particularly hard so did Bull Randleman's Lippton didn't live to see the acclaim easy company received when the miniseries was released I try not to think of the

bad times anymore I think mostly of the good times the emotion will always be there Dick Winner said that war brings out greatness and men and he also realized that war makes you appreciate your country the major winners before he died said well it probably sounds strange to you but when i brought easy company to Utah beach so we could board the LST to return to England on july 11th 1984 I saw that beach for the first time with that vast armada of ships as far as the eye could see in every direction Seeing the American flag fluttering over that beach I felt weak in the knees and tears filled my eyes Suddenly that flag meant something different than it ever had before I have never looked at our flag since without that memory in mind now I am an old man

But that feeling has never left me Finally, say war is awful. War is a nightmare. War does certainly make you appreciate life. Winners certainly appreciated the rest of his life. And he said this. I sit here in this house and I gaze out the window. I see flowers and the birds.

I behold the wonder of nature. everything seems so beautiful and it seems full and you know over the past couple of weeks I've been traveling a bunch and meeting a lot of different people business people workers police and firefighters and active duty military and veterans just people we get caught up in all kinds of chaos and mayhem mayhem from the past we get caught up in that about what we should have done or what we should have left undone and we feel this pressure about the future about what we should do or what we shouldn't do or where we're going and how we should get there and I get that I understand it I feel it too the life is hard life is

hard and if you aren't careful it will grind you down and you know I talk about detachment a lot from a leadership perspective and we talked about it today and it's certainly important but it's also a tool for your mind and for your sanity step back and look around not just to see what your next move is and where to head next and what to focus on but step your life not surrounded by the pressure and the war and the failures and the violence and the nightmares and the mistakes and the grind not that life but life as it is as it is without our intervention short little bit of time on an incredibly fast-moving sphere of amazement where if you can that like dick winter said echo charles yeah some lessons learned yeah very impactful for me and a

Big reminder for me. We worked heavily with the first of the 506 Band of Brothers in the Battle Romani. We had the Delta Paltoon commander and a group of his guys spent the whole time over there and what an incredible bunch of soldiers. They were just incredible. The impact that they had on the battlefield, the leadership I saw at every level. And whenever I think of the Band of Brothers, my my first thoughts when I think of the band of brothers isn't about dick winters it is and about the series it isn't about the books my first thought of the band of brothers is the first of the 506 battalion that we were honored to work with in the battle romadi and one of my platoons worked intently with the entire time and so for their service and sacrifice we I am eternally thankful for what they did and what they taught us and for us being alongside them was real humbling real humbling yeah you mentioned how how like in all these books and all these lessons that discipline is like so important and there was time you mentioned like imagine or imagine how important it is or how beneficial or whatever

It could be just in everyday life. Remember that? Yes. Yeah, that's crazy. And the more books like this that we go over, whatever, that message becomes more and more clear. Because you know how like you get like creative guys, you know, but they don't have discipline kind of thing.

Or you get super disciplined guys, but they don't have creativity or, you know, kind of. But every once in a while you'll get, you'll find a person or you'll notice a person who does bring them together, you know? And you see the results. Like you see what kind of, productivity or you just you just see the result in one way or another you know like these get like fighters or you know i don't know author like anyone you know absolutely so man it's crazy how

because you know if you're like naturally gifted or whatever that's something you in a way not really cool i don't know what that's like yeah but i mean it let's say you notice someone and you see it in in all these different fields as well or where oh someone that's got a lot of natural talent yeah they don't they don't have to because essentially through a bring or whatever they just their environment they don't need it really you know they don't need it like just get away with it because that just their talent they get away with it yes exactly I mean I think we hear that a lot this idea that you know talent it doesn't mean anything if you don't have the discipline to make things

happen and and a person that's highly disciplined will outperform someone that might be more talented yeah all day long yeah yeah it was all day long too strong Yeah, in the beginning. In the beginning, I think, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I feel like eventually the discipline is the thing that's just going to carry you through. So, and I just thought that was super important where you were like, imagine if this, if you apply this to everyday life. Because everyday life essentially, for us anyway, it's like a straight up luxury. Yeah, it is.

And here's what's important about what you're saying is, is this fact that the reason that these guys had to have discipline was because if they didn't have discipline, Have discipline they would die yeah if they didn't have discipline they would be overrun if they didn't have discipline They would they would starve. They would just die. They would die so they have to have discipline and your point is in this world and this life in 2017 living in the first world. You don't have to have discipline at all. Yeah and you'll still survive and you might even do okay Yeah, sure just imagine yeah just imagine if you apply the discipline to your life Where you'll end up yeah and how much better off you'll be and how much more you can do with your life the one life you have by the way how much more you can do with that life if you just have the discipline and work hard

and get after it yeah and you see it in little pockets too like remember when you're a kid and you're like I'm gonna save my money for this I don't know comic book I don't know I'm to save my money you don't even have an income by the way but somehow you save all your money like that little quarter that you find that's a hope you know you I'm gonna save that I'm gonna save that because you have this kind of and in a way like the discipline kind of forms itself around that goal so you know what it is like you know what that means you know so it's real like that's a real thing you shouldn't you shouldn't regarded as some ambiguous thing that other people do like it's not it's not some fancy crazy thing at all yeah it's a real straightforward yeah I think I think

that was one of the first podcast we did right I said something along I'm like you know what you need to do yeah yeah like we all know what we should be doing I think that was it first there's not too many people that are lost that are going oh I'm just not sure how to do this no they know exactly what we know exactly what we know exactly what I know exactly what I should be doing I'll tell you what it is distractions there's too many distractions and distractions are literally everything there's industries of just distractions that's the whole industry like TV TV industry of distraction huge and in the defense of TV TV can be an edge

Yeah, you can because there's educational stuff on TV Um, but I'm just saying like seed your point the entertainment industry and I'm not saying These industries of distractions are bad things I'm not saying that I'm just saying distractions are what get in the way of I don't know for lack of better term like your your goal Yeah and well we're talking about the very fact of some of your discipline can be used to create things that are actually distracting I mean if you if your goal is to create some artistic piece whether it's a movie whether it's music whether it's whatever

that that's a distracting thing but that's not that doesn't mean that it's negative that you want to make that happen because there's people that'll find something I mean the reason you want to create something is I guess you create it for yourself but then the reward is when other people say yes I get something out of here's yeah recognition for me appears yeah for sure yeah and when I say distractions I in regards to go it's a relative thing meaning like you're distracted your path of the goal. I agree with you. Yeah, but there's also just just mentally just weakness just the easy path I should say right the discipline path is hard. The, the, the easy

path that anyone wants to jump on when your alarm clock goes off blah blah blah blah right. I've talked about these things a million times. That's what the problem is. The problem isn't even a distraction. The problem is just the lack of will to do what you need to do. Right. Distraction can add to that. That's a part of it. What we do is we take we take our the path of least resistance and then we throw distraction on top of that for instance, when you open up your computer because you've got to write a book and instead of opening the word processor, you go, I'm just going to check the interwebs real quick. Distracted.

Yeah, you're distracted. There goes 45 minutes. You ever notice? Seriously, the internet is a mind, a time warp. Oh, yeah. Time just disappears in the internet. There's a lot of distractions on there. Yeah.

For sure. And really, what I mean by distraction is you have this long-term goal, right? Your goal is your payoff, your long-term payoff. So the distractions really are these little short-term payoffs that drag you that dis-structions. track you. So that's what the distraction is. I like how you broke that out for me. Right, right.

Disract. Right. Get you off the track. Exactly right. So the weakness will let those distractions kind of take hold for sure. But so yeah, they work hand in hand for sure. So if you can sit because again, that saving money for comic books thing. So consider that as the goal.

So the distractions are going to be the candy that you want to buy or the, you know, I don't know, you play dice with your friend. I don't know. Whatever the distractions is in regards to that. specific path. I like Echo's world right now. Like playing dice with your friends, saving for comic books. It's like 1950s. I like it.

You know, but either way, like the distractions, they're relevant. So when I say, okay, the distractions are there. When I say there's industries of distractions, again, I'm not saying there's bad things. They are bad things if they're distracting you from your goal. So you can have all kinds of goals. Yeah, that's true. Because if you think about it, sometimes you just need to let your mind take a rest. Yeah, fully.

You need one of the oh I got a I got something to say I just flew home from like I've been on the road all over the world Did the muster did a bunch of speeches did some consulting It was all over the place on the plane the whole time and I flew home from the East Coast when was that A couple days ago and when I flew I haven't done this in forever I flew home. I watched a movie I just did a total distraction because I said you know what? I can't I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not in the game right now like I need my brain just needs to shut off Yeah do something which I don't like to do which is you can either do two things I I look at it you can

consume or you can produce right I want to be producing I want to be putting together I want to be writing I want to be thinking I want to be right reading for the podcast prepping that's what I want to be doing I want to be producing something consuming is I'm just absorbing what someone else made yeah right I'm just going to absorb this absorb this a lot of times it is garbage so So but I flew home had a long flight and I was like you know what I need to check out I need to check out right now and just do nothing so I watched two movies Dig it two movies what you're gonna ask the two movies I watched The first one was not Heartbreak Ridge

It's the new movie that just came out About DOS that Mel Gibson directed what's it called? I don't know This is a big successful movie Conscious Objective World War II he wins the Medal of Honor or he's awarded the Medal of Honor So that was a good movie you know it's a World War II movie I liked it it's not in my opinion five-star but it was good it was entertaining sure It told the story and then after that I watched Zoolander that was when I was going in a full deep impression

I got good on you right I watched Zoolander yeah because it's a hilarious movie I have a budget in the teams that we nicknamed Mugatu. Sure. Yeah, because, you know, he would go crazy. So we had to call him Mugatu. Yeah. And, yeah, that was just a funny movie. I just decompressed.

Yeah, and I don't do that very often. Hey, dig it. The grind is always happening. But I just had to take a little detachment. What was the name of that movie with, there's not famous actors? I guess there's one. Who's the really funny guy?

Anyways, this is a good movie. Yeah, so technical, what the other question is, is that really a distraction? So, you know, like a football game or a movie or something that you're not doing to put you, you know, more forward on your path or whatever. But if you're taking a break, is that a distraction? Like if I'm lifting, I do a workout and then I go recover from that workout by the rest of it. Is that a distraction?

No, it wasn't a distraction. I should have grinded though. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. No. I was done. I was done. I tapped out.

So a distraction is more of an idea, more of the context. You know so like you definitely things that are just like how you said when you open your computer and the whole internet is there to distract you one way or another Yeah, that's a distraction you know where you can like even if I have a book if my goal is to Finish some video, but meanwhile I have this book that's real informative and you know something and I'm like you know that book seems real I'm real in the mood to read that book That's a distraction even though it's a good thing you know so the distraction is like the idea So you know what are the common goals I want to get in shape? I'm real. I'm real in the mood. I'm real. I'm real in the distraction. I'm real. I'm real. I'm a distraction. I'm a good thing. I'm I want to, you know, be a better husband or wife or I want to do better at work. I want to learn more.

I want to read all this stuff. Get better at jiu-jitsu. Get better at jiu-jitsu. All this stuff. You can get distracted by these other things. You know, before I, I don't know, read, I'm going to surf Instagram or something like that. That's a distraction, you know. And now, which is my original point is the reason or one of the reasons that we don't apply this extreme discipline, as it's outlined in these books here, is be.

is one of the reasons is because we have literally infinite amount of distractions right now. Well, there's also no consequence. Or I shouldn't say that. The consequence isn't visible. Yeah. The consequence, you don't say, you don't say, hey, if I would have had discipline, I would reach this ultimate potential. You just okay with not reaching that ultimate potential. And you're okay with just like turning, putting microwavable popcorn in and watching a movie.

You've been doing it the whole time? I'm still here. Hey, I'm still here. I'm good. And you know what? that was a good movie and the popcorn tasted good. You know what I mean? That's the wrong answer.

You don't recognize what your potential is and so you're just okay with this kind of half potential. You don't reach your potential. And since you don't know it and the other thing it's hard to see, it's hard to see how that long term affects you. You know, like, oh, it's just one bag of popcorn

and it's just one movie. Yeah. But you did that three times this week. Yeah. You know, that's not get you turned your place. 30 times, you know, in the past 10 weeks. Yeah, you could write 30,000 words. No, more than that.

Yeah. at about a thousand words an hour. A good way to look at it. And I think I might have said this before, where it's not like a moment to moment looking to the future kind of thing. You should look at it in the way of, in the sense of looking at it in the past. So let's say you consider the last one year or two years, right? And let's say I wanted to play better guitar or something.

Good goal. Yeah. I have that goal. I always fail at it. There you go. So you look at it in this way where you don't say, okay, if I spend an hour a day, you know practicing guitar in you know in a year I'll be better you don't necessarily look like that you can but a good way to look at it or helpful way is if you look at it last year where dang if I if I would

have played an hour a day right now I would right now as I'm sitting here with you right now I'd be that be dope at guitar you know kind of like that so you kind of get that well in my experience I've kind of got this feeling of like wasted time you know you know that feeling where it's like I got to play catch up now. That's a little bit more compelling. I think sometimes it can be. Yeah. So if you think about it that way too,

I think that helps. Maybe, maybe not. Speaking of help. Speaking of help and potential. Oh. Both. Nicely done.

Double gravitational. You need help by way of supplementation if you're working out. So, man, how you said, you can't not work out, I think, especially nowadays. It's like you could,

Because your life, probability-wise, is cruising. You're cruising physically where you go to the office. Because really that's a... Oh, yeah. Life is physically easy right now for most people. And it gets easier and easier. Even if it's not easy right now, next year, generally speaking, it's going to be easier. You know, like even...

So I'm brushing my teeth like I do every week or whatever. Once a week, whether you think of it or not. Yeah. And so I have the regular toothbrush, you know. I'm sure there's all kinds of little micro technologies in the toothbrush. But I started to think, man, this, there has, you know, this is an old school thing. There's automatic toothbrushes. Actually, my brother told me about this toothbrush, this automatic, you know, electric toothbrush that was like super dope and highly recommended it.

It was like $89, all this stuff. And I'm thinking, dang, something as basic as brushing your teeth is way easier now, way easier. You got a machine to do it. That's really the whole narrative with everything. Point being, physically. You got to push yourself because you're not going to have to push it. You got to recreate it. You got to push you.

Yeah. Yeah. Your environment is starting to work more and more against you in regards to physical activities. So my point being, you got to work out. Yeah, I was going to say that's a real straightforward thing. Work out. Yeah, but I feel like it's, I mean, it's easy for you, you know, to be like, yeah, Seems obvious, you know?

They call that the curse of knowledge. You know how when you're, you're like so advanced in this one thing that you forget how it is to not be advanced? Yeah, that's true. I have forgotten what it's like to not be advanced in terms of trying to explain to people why they, I think it's pretty self-evident to anybody why you'd work out. No, you're wrong. Yeah.

Okay. Think about this. And I think about, and I thought about this one. Like, okay, you know when you go into a jiu-jitsu gym? Okay, you're different. So you may, you could very well not even understand this. This might not compute with you. But if you walk into a jihitsu gym and then.

This applies to even a regular 24-hour fitness gym. If you've never been in there before, it never worked out, that's a really intimidating thing. You come in, everyone's looking at me. I don't know how to use the machines. I don't know how to work out. Like, everyone's looking at me, judging me. I'm dumb.

It is not my element, all this stuff. It's intimidating, you know? Okay. But it's real. It's what I'm saying. You know how you say, like, you probably don't know about that because you don't, you have the curse of knowledge in regards to, like, physical activity, working out, you know, all that stuff.

And then the pain that comes with it, man, I dig it. I understand. But that's even more of a real. reason to work out. Physical condition. Anyway, you'd be glad you did. If you don't work out, just jump in there. Jump in.

Go to the gym. Last year, if you would have started working out, you know how dope you'd be right now? Way doper than you are if in the event you didn't start last year. See what I'm saying? Anyway, while you work out, your joints might be kind of sore. I know this from experience. Take krill oil. My father-in-law turned me on to it.

actually technically didn't successfully turn me onto it. But he tried. He tried. And, you know, I didn't see the light until Jocko turned me onto it. So now I'm turning everyone else onto it, hopefully successfully. Crill oil is, I'm not going to go into a whole deep thing here, but it's for your joint. So if you get joint pain, just with degeneration over time, you get older, dig it. Crill oil will bring you back.

They'll function. It's kind of like your joints are like always warm now. Not like to the touch warm But like warm like ready for action You see what I'm saying Anyway cruel oil I ain't even say by who huh If you don't know on it

That's the whole company And they have they don't have just Crill oil they have other stuff too They also have Shroom tech Yeah performance stuff Which I recommend I recommend Shroom Tech by the way Big time especially if you're if you're going

For performance Yeah if you're gonna go Train Jiujitsu With Andy Taylor Dean Craig Baker Yeah Train echo Charles just take take the shroom you know what sport yeah shroom tech sport take

three of them oh is that the no that's the recommended I didn't know that and then I read it yeah I like one day I just read the instructions for no reason I was like I wonder if I take 12 of these things if I'll be even more tech but I did say three because I've been taken two oh for a so I took three felt a little bit legit yeah I always take three and never let down and again that's for the performance so if I'm just cruising if I'm just taking a walk around the block or two I take the shroom tech I'm not gonna feel it as much as if I jump in jiu jitzy rounds you know yeah no you need it I take it when I have to perform a situation yeah big time me too you take shroom tech immune not to be

confused with and I've taken shroom tech immune when I go massive travel yeah getting all these planes with all these people everyone's sick coughing sneezing yeah it's all nasty on you what I do just go ahead and take some shroom tech immune it's something different because it's yellowish the label the label's green too so the the the whatever you're eating is more yellow yeah I think the ingredients we'll just say the ingredients are yeah I take vitamin C actually when I'm a big travel vitamin C shroom tech immune I hear zinc is a good one too that's what I hear I've taken zinc before to try and overcome a cold but I wasn't very you know convinced yeah

Yeah, I can power, I will power some vitamin C though if I feel like some kind of a disease coming on. Yeah, power the vitamin C. And that's kind of the good thing where you take this Shroom Tech immune. It, like, you know, you know that they were like, okay, does vitamin C help? Okay, check. It does zinc and I don't know. I didn't read the ingredients like you did and thought we're about to whatever, but. I read the effects. Yeah, okay, got you. Raise my immune system. I'm going to need that plain, a bunch of dirty people. Not all of you, but many of you, sneezing. Sneezing on everyone coughing on everyone. Yeah and and by the way because I'm gonna go talk to people I can't be going no real I don't talk oh or yeah I can't do that I have to actually be Yeah yeah coffee scene excuse me whole time yeah can be it's awful if you if you sneeze or cough When you're on a mic in front of a big group of people you're not cool or if you keep doing it Yeah kind of shroom tech good immune shoot on it.com you know the good stuff in the okay yes on it dot com you want 10% off all this stuff on it dot com slash jaco and here's the thing we just talk about

right now we talked about krill oil shroom tech sport shroom tech immune alpha brain oh okay yeah alpha bro we could go all night with this because of all the good stuff is what i'm saying today i did you watched me actually well yeah yeah i did i had alpha brain today and i was thinking you took it but then when you wanted that long story about something and i was sort of wondering maybe he didn't take his alpha brain today no then when i wrapped it up you were like day he was on that alphabraint the whole Oh, he was all that Alphabet. I didn't see it. Alphabet.

That statement made me think you on Alphabet today. Just because you were able to complete your whole deal right there, I'm going to give it to you. Alfa brain. Listen to Echo's story and then when it comes to the closure,

you go, bang, and I get some of that. Exactly, right? See, take my lead example. You understand what I'm saying. So, Alpha Brain, if you don't know, because we haven't talked about it as much as I feel like,

as far as its role in our lives, my life, anyway, I'm speaking for myself, where you take it's neutral is called neutropic it's basically brain food brain supplement you know like to to make your brain you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna get to because I've been taking mostly on it mostly alpha brain in the pat in the powder because it tastes good yeah the peach and

the spice I've been taking it in that more than I I'm gonna I'd actually ran out of the pills yeah the capsules wait so you let you prefer the capsules you're saying well sometimes capsules a little bit more convenient right yeah yeah but I like it like if I'm doing an event or I'm gonna go on a podcast yeah and I didn't I want to just build a bam makes it some alpha brainy in the in the brainy see but you're always in a hurry doing a bunch of stuff bro mix it up a little ritual you know like when you brew tea it's like I don't know it's all experience anyway either way they're both the same deal and they're called neutropics proven by the way I'm not just saying

oh it feels good for me so you should take it I'm not just saying that now when you you say that yeah but to me that means more to me than I don't know why But like when you say oh it's a double triple blind placebo ball ball ball control but yeah I would rather have like someone that I know say bro I'm telling you take this stuff like I did with curle oil to you yeah yeah yeah that was more important than reading a bunch of facts about it Yeah yeah yeah and that take someone that you know and they're saying look man give it a little crack Yeah trust me on this one and I think most people have that in one way or another not with everything But yeah, like if you recommend a movie or something like that and then meanwhile look at the reviews the reviews are like super good But then you're like eh it was junk because of this because of that it's like it's an authentic thing

So long Yeah, I went right to the classic 90s con it's a 90s comedy what kind of mood is jocco in when I go to 90s Oh is Zoolander? Yeah, man That's just ridiculous That's just ridiculous but I like Owen Wilson in that movie no the other one oh yeah sorry I'm Yeah, I'm thinking Ben still. I like that guy Owen Wilson. He's funny.

I like him because he comes across as very truthful in the way he says. Yeah, like almost naive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's just like, seems like a good dude to hang out. Seems like he'd be fun to hang out with. Yeah, yeah. But he's kind of got this air about him that's pretty bad. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Nonetheless, back to the Alpha Brain, I think that when they prove it, I think certain people, certain types of like mindsets or whatever, kind of more gravitate. towards that. Like, they're like, okay, that's cool that it worked for you, but that could have been placebo. That could have been this.

That could have been your mood that day or whatever. If I'm going to commit to this, I want some hard facts. Some people, that's out. So, boom, you got the hard facts as well as a legitimate recommendation because I was taking this even before, you know, the podcast and stuff. So I was into it. Nonetheless, alpha brain, that's a good one. A bunch of other cool stuff.

If you're into protein powder, good, clean protein powder on there. All this. All this. stuff too, by the way. I got a bunch of kettlebells. They're a primal bells, legend, the artistic one, they're dope. Look at my Instagram. There's some on there. Anyway, that is a good way to support yourself, help yourself maintain the workouts, physical activity, all that stuff, so you can be successful in that way. I don't think there's any excuse anymore. I for real don't. Also, good way to support. Really good way to support.

Clickthrough. When you go and get the book conversations with Major Dick Winters, go to the website, it's listed there, and click through there, boom. So basically it's an Amazon click through, you bite through Amazon. Amazon click through. Before you do your shopping, click through the website, Amazon, boom, supports the podcast. Small action, big reaction. Because the click through only takes what? Three seconds.

I think we've determined. some of them. Really. So, you know, give them some leeway. So we'll say three seconds. And then the reaction is massive support for this podcast. That's a good way. Amazon click through through the website, joccopodcast.com or I think it's on jocco store.com as well, but just go to jocopodcast.com. Click through before you do your Amazon shopping. Also, subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, if you haven't already. Stitcher, Google Play, all these other podcasting, providing platforms. also on YouTube if you don't mind the video version of this podcast go to YouTube watch it there it's cool and it adds that other layer of experience yeah everyone seems to do

that when there's a guest yeah because they don't know who that person is they know what you look like they know what I look like most most yeah most people well if they're listening to the podcast eventually they know what you look like they know what I look like yeah and so there's no reason sometimes although sometimes you can see like Like when certain subjects come up and there's maybe some intensity in the podcast, more people watch it. But if it's a pretty mellow podcast and we're just talking about whatever we're talking about, maybe not everyone feels the need to go to YouTube.

But when their guest comes on, people want to see what that person looks like. And there's usually some more animated interactions. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, big time. Yeah, man. So if you're into that. You know what? It'd be cool if you made a little clip of when Tim Kennedy was on.

and I read a question from the audience was something along the lines and I said, you know, hey, you know, they took away bayonet training from boot camp and Tim Kenney just goes, God, damn it! That's one of my favorite parts of any podcast ever. In that guy, I wouldn't really appreciate it

if you'd make that clip, even if it was like 12 seconds long. Just that part. Yeah, just 12 seconds long. It would be worth having on there Because everyone should know that that's a travesty that they stopped doing bayonet courses in Army boot camp. All right, you got it. Some people, if they don't hear this exact part, they'd be kind of confused. But hey, I think they'll appreciate it.

I think so. Oh, they'll hear it. Yeah, they'll dig it fully. But there's good animation. Yeah. You know, he's getting crazy. Yeah, man. Which is fun.

And really, in general, just to YouTube, that's an added, like I said, in that added visual layer. You know, if you're down for it. Sometimes people, you know, you put it on your TV. Let's say in your garage, you know, you're working out. Where you know it's on the TV. It's kind of like you're in the conversation a little bit more. It feels like it and also if people subscribe to the YouTube channel Then when they can sign up where if you make an excerpt right then they can get that because that's cool I think that's a good thing is it's much easier to share an excerpt from the podcast than it is to share an audio I don't even know how to share an audio piece of a podcast I even know how to do that it probably can't be done

Probably that's why we have the YouTube so yeah go ahead subscribe to that one and speaking of the you mentioned the excerpts yeah you put some excerpts you can't if you don't want to share or you anticipate that this person is not gonna listen to two and a half hours of a podcast when you share it you just get the little lesson you know that you want to you know how to you know approach college you know whatever yeah that's a popular one um because everybody that went to college already wishes they had that when they went to college yeah so when they you know when they encounter someone who's gonna you know go to college their kids or nephew neighbor whatever boom they have some advice directly

from jaco anyway so yeah you can you share that subscribe to the youtube that's the point there subscribe to the youtube if you want and if you want to support and you know if you want you can sign up for a little alert when i upload something on there i get those alerts you can get after it i'm usually pretty stoked when i see something coming through it's like a little present anyway yeah so youtube good one um also jacco is a store it's called jaco store Jocco store.com, you know, if you want t-shirts and whatnot, discipline equals freedom. The one that simply says get after it on the front,

that seemed to have gone over pretty well, I'd say. Well, and also it seems worth noting that we now offer the victory MMA shirt. The Jocko uniform that I wear all the time. I wear it when I record the podcast I wear it all time we you know obviously because we have our gym Yeah, we have a lot of t-shirts our gym's name on it and so I wear that T-shirt a lot yeah and I always have yeah and then I I didn't intentionally do it on the podcast in the beginning I just happened to be wearing it two or three times Yeah, and then someone said is that the only shirt jaco wears? Yeah, and at that point I said why yes it is

No, bro. You're like the guy on the fly remember the movie the fly yeah and the lady's like what was her I forget her name she's like hey is that your only set of clothes or something like that and she sees in his closet that they're all the same oh yeah that is me yeah yeah yeah like I like to have the things are the same but people would come and and ask me hey where can I get the t-shirt where can I get the t-shirt so now we put it on the jaco store strangely they didn't even have them at victory no I know I don't come in and be like hey we want to yeah this is the thing this is old school this is an original this is the original Victory MMA t-shirt and we had to re-produce it.

Yeah. So it's a reissue. Yeah, and all- Which is dope in its own respect, right? Yeah, it is. So I'm trying to think, like, is that, you know, it's not because it's the exact same design. Yeah.

It's the exact design. It's literally the exact same, like design file. The same file, right? Yeah. Boom. So you can get that one if you want it. Yeah. You can represent.

Represent big time. It's good. It's interesting because yours are like old school, so they kind of have like a, fade to them you know the new one they're like oh yeah they look sharp beaming I'm gleaming I'm gonna grab a couple of those too by the way all right well just because I was running low when I would hate to have other things in in my yeah what's that called when you have clothes my wardrobe yeah yes sweet good thinking jaco anyway jocco store

dot com check those out some other new stuff stuff things items on there let me talk about this mug I'm not to take too much time because we've been you know we've been going So this this travel mug right here. So you know how, you know how at home, you know, you have your cup. You know what I'm talking about? Actually, the one that you use. You know what? I have actually my wife once she searched forever to get me a cup that I like.

Yeah. And she found it. Yeah. And then she went to Target and bought, you know, a dozen of them. There's big, giant plastic, but feel like glass, whatever that is, acrylic or something. Yeah. Can't break. But you can, but they feel good in your hand.

So I have a bunch of them. of those but apparently it's getting replaced yes so it's strangely I had the same thing well I was on the same search so I had this one what I arrived at my favorite cup was pink because they didn't have any other colors it was pink but it was big it was like maybe like 24 ounce like big cup that's what I used for everything news pink whatever that that meant nothing you're you're comfortable with your manhood yeah man compared compared to the functionality the pink was nothing um but here's the thing it could barely fit in my cup older you know the kind like you put in but it was like kind of stuck you'd have to fine but that was the cup that was the best one you use any

other cup you just I don't know it's how you do it now I'm gonna get to that so but you know what I mean though so you know exactly what I mean where you know you have your cup I don't where's my it could be dirty there can be cups every all available you're like no I'm gonna go ahead wash this you know and I'm gonna use my cup that's it this one okay we'll talk about this mug it's technically what a travel tumbler right been heard whatever you know comes to the top all that stuff but but you you take all the top boom that's a cup too ergonomically conducive to just using it as a you know how if you have like threads oh yeah yeah to screw on a top there's no threads it's like yeah it's like a thing anyway and that's not to mention the look black on black what they call it

murdered out you ever heard that expression murdered out no true if you have time google murdered out catalac car it's a flat mat painting with black wheels so it's like basically all black doing it's all black so that's this thing is murdered out technically um flat black matt with like the logo the 434 and the discipline equals room is like shiny black black very nice very nice so and that's just the design so function wise perfect 30 ounces not 24 30 straight up and it what is it BPA free all this so you don't get poisoned over time come on bro that's a big thing And also, okay, and here's the impressive part when I ultimately was like, dang, like impressed.

I guess this is like a technology has kind of been around, but I didn't know because I had that plastic cup, you know, whatever. This, it'll keep, it'll separate the temperatures from inside and outside. So the inside temperature won't leak to the outside, meaning it keeps like if you have ice and cold stuff in here, bro. Means it's insulated. It'll, yeah, but it's insulated in a special crazy way. If you, and this is with no top on, by the way. you fill it up with ice, your ice water, you know, is what I did one time. I finished, like, it was maybe three quarters of it.

It's still some water in there. And I just, I kind of left it, went to bed. The next day, I looked at it, and the ice was still in there. And yeah, sure, that doesn't mean that much. But as far as proving how it keeps the temperature, bro, that's a lot, straight up. Also, it doesn't, like, sweat, you know how when you have a cold drink on a, on a, yeah, if it's on your desk or something. working yeah yeah screw some stuff up hot day whatever humid it's like yeah doesn't even do that doesn't do that at all one time I was outside at the pool whatever cruising ice water actually it was jocco

white tea boom oh we'll get to that too but so you know I leave it there and it's in the sun and I grab it and I'm like oh my this is going to be totally melted because I'm feeling it the the cup physically feeling the outside of the cup and it's straight up hot the sun the sun sun is beaming on it's hot. If I look inside ice, still the full on ice, not even melted at all. Well, I'm telling you when you replaced your cup. I'm so happy that you're happy with this cup. I'm telling you right now.

When you replace this cup, you're going to find all these benefits to it above and beyond just the dope look and size. And it fits in your cup holder, straight up. See how it's like the shape? Yeah. Cool. All right. Next thing.

I feel like we could talk about this for a little bit more. I know you like it. I'm glad you like it. I like it too. This is my first time utilizing it actually. And I'm impressed. My tea. My icy is still icy.

I've been getting down with this cup mug for a long time and thoroughly impressed. Anyway, so yeah, we got that on the jocco store. Jocco store.com. We got it on there. Also, should we talk about the Warrior Kid shirts? You can talk about that. All right. They're on there, too.

Warrior Kid shirts. sizes for your kids boom there it is very very cool warrior kids out there there's some layers in that one too that I just found out by the way your contribution the colors and whatnot yeah yes yes

don't worry about that good check it out again jockelstore dot com there's rash guards on there new rash guards out maybe they're out hoodies kind of getting into like a spring I mean maybe summer pretty soon so hoodies might not be as applicable either way They're on there. We need to start prepping the winter hoodies that I'm going to be more in charge of this time so that they're heavier and more powerful.

Yeah, because you're thinking New England winter. Yeah, I am. I'm also thinking Chicago and Minnesota and Iowa. I'm not thinking kawai over here. If I wasn't kawai wouldn't even wear a shirt, much less a sweatshirt. Bro, that was my whole point. You're like hoodies. I was like, bro, what is that?

Yeah, you didn't know what it was. Actually, my wife knows what hoodies are. So I just consulted with her. Nonetheless, joccoctor.com, that's some cool stuff on there. travel mugs all shirts cool shirts support that way and you know you get a little item represent in the wild boom also support yourself with this one psychological warfare if you don't know what that is which i know you already do but if you don't it's an album with tracks no music it's jocco on there and these tracks are useful these are utility what do you call functional tactical

tracks to help you stay on the path. You know, we talked about getting distracted. Some people, they'll get distracted by comfort. You know, like the path. The path isn't comfortable. It's riddled with discomfort. Riddled. And sometimes after a while,

that discomfort can get to certain people at certain times. So what this psychological warfare album does is it keeps you on the path. So, for example, you want to wake up every day early. that one day you're distracted by the comfort of hitting the snooze button getting 10 more 20 more minutes of sleep

that's bad that's a distraction that's a deviation from the path listen to psychological warfare what's the number number one I think get up and get after it get up and get a listen to that put it as your alarm I dare you to hit snooze dare you jock will just tell you practically

in a practical, pragmatic way why you should not hit the snooze, boom. I would say with 100% certainty that you will not hit the snooze and you will stay on the path and that goes for all these other things, deviating from diet,

deviating from pushing yourself in a workout, deviating from going to the gym in the first place. Going exactly right. Or if you have like this procrastination situation, oh man, that's the main one that you know like how you're always like, I should I need to do this I should do this just don't doing it yeah

Procrastination is pretty much the thing that's gonna keep you from doing it Nonetheless if you procrastinate this they got a little solution for you too anyway Psychological warfare jocco willing look for it on iTunes or Amazon music by the way It's a good one that's pretty cool also while you're on Amazon you can get this book that we just covered today Conversations with major dick winners Jocka white tea is also available on Amazon if you don't want to drink sodas, which no one should be drinking sodas at all. You don't need them. They're actually horrible for you.

Bro, remember when we were eating sushi in New York and it busted out the Coke? Yeah, I was going to actually just, I was surprised. I thought that you weren't going to be my friend anymore. You know, like, you realize. I couldn't believe it. So anyways, Echo has this tradition, which to me sounds like a sugar-coated lie. Yeah. That when he eats sushi, he has a glass bottle of Coke.

So he did that. I overcame my hatred for him the best I could. It's kind of like when I was talking today about, like, hey, if you're a vet, you can't look at everyone like, hey, this person is just, I had to be like, okay, Echo's not a bad person. He's just mentally weak right now. And we'll just deal with it. Don't drink that drink joccal white tea, which actually tastes better than Coke. There's no doubt that it tastes better than coke. Subjective, but sure.

Are you serious right now? I'm saying better as a subjective. Yeah, that everyone agrees with in the world. Put it side by side, taste test. There you go. We'll go. Boom. Guarantee everybody says, give me that, give me the joccal white tea.

They don't want that. It's syrup and sugar. I think you might be 147% correct. I know absolutely we'll do a taste test only you can taste the coke because I'm not I'm not touching my lips to that stuff Nasty one time they had a we have a PT situation we called a monster mash Sure and it's you just do a bunch of crazy events and pull-ups and rope climbs and carry boats around and swim and we were doing it when I was the The oh the officer in charge of trade at and so yeah oh I see a trade so I brought my son with me Mm and they had did this monster mash and we were doing this monster mash and we were the the O I was the officer match and we were the O I was the O I see a trade at so I'm and we had did this monster mash and

And one of the things you had to do in the Monster Mash, and this thing's being timed in Sarac and all that stuff, you had to drink a full Coca-Cola through a straw. So my son's doing the Monster Match, and he's probably seven or something like that. And he'd never even had a Coke before. It burned his mouth, probably. Yeah, and he just hated it. It was so nasty to him.

Yeah. That's how I looked at you the other guy. I was like, dude, you're making me sick. So, jockey white tea, you know, go on there, read the reviews as well. You know you'll see things like this excellent tea when I need to crush and power through all the work I brew me some jocco white tea if I need a little extra kick to crush it That's what I do I've begun working fewer hours at the office as my Productivity has risen 900%

That's pretty legit actual numbers yeah, yeah and obviously that's a hundred percent accurate because it came from an Amazon review So and and actually there's a warning as well caution regarding this product leaving your supply of jocco white tea out in the open will require overwatch i now have non-tee drinkers hitting my reserves almost as badly as dedicated tea drinkers no double blind study required right that's this is the thing it doesn't taste like tea right it doesn't taste like tea in my opinion it tastes like it tastes like victory but it doesn't taste like oh yeah so that's at jaco white tea you can get it on amazon way the warrior kid the book isn't out as you know thank you for getting it kids have

been crushing it it's awesome that's one of my favorite things that has happened to me in the past mid several years is people started posting pictures of their kids reading way the warrior kid yeah and that was awesome for me to see and I'll tell you why it was awesome because I know I know Those kids are reading that book and they're thinking that they're gonna get a little bit better and a little bit stronger and a little bit faster and a little bit smarter and a little bit smarter And they're gonna and people are sending me pictures of kids doing push-ups and kids doing a guy sent me A video of his kid you know how you have little Night vision in your kids room so you can monitor them oh like on a little monitor yeah a little monitor He sent me a picture a video of the monitor the kids in the room after night time after bedtime yeah

Guess what the kid's doing? Push-ups. He's doing push-ups. Why? He wants to get stronger. He wants to get better. So, yeah, get that. If you got kids, get it for them.

If you're an adult, that's cool. Get it anyways. Adults have a lot to learn from Uncle Jake, myself included. So run out, go to your local bookstore and grab copies. If they don't have it in your local bookstore, tell them to get it. So that other kids can see it and get it. Let's make people better also you can pre-order discipline equals freedom field manual Again, you can find it in the get after it section of any bookstore or online bookseller it is the only book in that section if your bookstore doesn't have that section

Which it probably won't tell them to get after it and make one and then put discipline equals freedom there and get a copy of it for yourself Extreme ownership. Yes the fundamental principles of combat leadership, they will help you win in any capacity on the battlefield, on the beat, in business, in life. Extreme ownership written by myself and my brother, Laif Babin. You can get that book as well. If you need more than the podcast and the book, that's fine. It's okay.

Contact our leadership and management consulting company, Eschlonfront. Info at Eschonfront.com. Now the muster The muster We just got done with muster zero zero two in New York City What's your assessment? Echo Charles My assessment was that

It was an upgrade It is it was an upgrade from the first one And that's saying a lot Because that first one was that I was like Dang that was really impactful To the kind of where And I don't really say like This event was impactful

I don't use that word Not because I'm above it or nothing like that But I'm just saying to say it It got to be for real So that first one was, I was like, dang this, this is really good. From top to bottom, like even, okay, the material, boom, it's like all usable material, all of it. And then, like I always say, and I think people overlook this part a lot of time, like just the social element. It's so easy to make friends with everyone because they all kind of have the same kind of interesting goals in one way or another.

There's going to be some overlap there. And the jih Tjitsu part was fun too, you know? It's like, it's just this great event, you know? And then the second one and I wasn't I'm gonna be honest with you I wasn't as fired up because it was in New York It's like outside of the comfort zone the first one here San Diego I was like sweet It was like it was even better that's that this past one was better. Yeah, it was got getting great feedback awesome And like you said I think the important well one of the most important things that you just said is it's very Pragmatic yeah it's not like it's not like hey you're gonna learn some stuff but it's not gonna be really applicable no no no it's gonna be applicable

When you walk out when you finish that section and we get done talking about it Boom you can you can implement that immediately Yeah, it's interesting you guys have like a lot of military stories and examples you know and then but when you go to the Q and A Like all the people with their questions not one of them is military It's all work maybe relationship maybe here and there But it's like at work you know like what do I do? Yeah and exactly in every one of those situations We answer them I'd say we answer them with both business examples that we've experienced and military examples but yeah you

You absolutely, we've seen, this is the thing. We've seen it happen before. Whatever that little issue is that you're having, I've seen it before. You know, I've seen it before. I've seen something like it. We'll be able to find an answer, come to a conclusion,

and move forward with the techniques, the principles that we talk about in extreme ownership. But it's like this. Extreme ownership, the book is an awesome way to get the fundamental principles. But when you come to the event, now you can really personalize it. You know, you can really make sense of it.

It's just like learning jiu-jitsu. Like it's cool, yeah, watch the YouTube videos. Yeah. Also go to class. Also go to the seminar. Learn it from as many different angles as you can. Because the more angles you learn it from, the better you, the more proficient you'll be at applying them to your world. Yeah.

And that's not, you know, you talk about jih Tzu. Another cool part about it is, you know, when we teach the jiu-jitsu on the last day, like you can come and actually like, well, try to choke Jocko. Yeah, you come and bring it. You think that's kind of, you know, because think about it, most times, like, if you go to, like, a, you know, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't go try to choke the guy at the end of it, you know? You can't say, like, hey, I'm going to go see this concert. And then afterwards, I'm going to pick up a guitar and play, you know, the solos with, you know,

Eric Clapton. Yeah, exactly right. That doesn't happen. And that's, you can. Yeah. And this is, like, like, actually choking them, the person, you know, so that's like an added element, you know? I mean, I got to roll with, like, plenty of the guys, man. It's just so cool to be like oh yeah, you know, we talk and we talk about this and then get it on afterwards, you know

And so anyways if you didn't make it to New York City, which was awesome time square, we had a great time The next one we're having July 13th and 14th in Austin, Texas the Omni Barton Creek Resort and Spa Now this is one thing that it just is what it is in New York we we were planning to do like 350 people and then we sold that out we opened it up for another 50 and we and we and we and we had to expand our room to get that and then that sold out and so then we we rearrange the or the the situation in there to get more people in there it looks like in Austin we're capped We can't get any bigger than the room that we've got and so it's 350 So if you want to come sign up quick before it gets sold out because there's no way we can expand it into more people So just be be aware of that if you can't make that for 13th and 14th that July 3rd 13th and 14th in Austin Texas San Diego California September 14th and 15th we're back in San Diego for follow-on operations so come and get it

While you're waiting for the muster if you need to pass communications To myself or echo Charles we can be found on the inner webs Twitter Instagram plus We on that Facebook Booky echo is at echo Charles and I am at jocco Willink and thanks to everyone for listening to the podcast for sharing the podcast for supporting the podcast We really do appreciate it Thanks the military personnel out there that are protecting our freedoms overseas and also the law enforcement the firefighters

EMTs first responders that keep us safe here at home thanks to you all and to everyone whatever your mission might be let's think about dick winners personal quest very simple to excel in everything he did excel in everything he did we should do the same excel in everything we do from working to working now from the way we treat people to the way we treat people to the we treat ourselves excel put forth your greatest effort in everything you do from the small seemingly meaningless tasks to the big goals as you attack those goals or as those goals start to grind you down remember the obsessive pure determined effort that dick winters taught us all and go out there and get after it

So until next time This is Echo and Jocko