Jocko Podcast - Jocko Podcast 17: Band of Brothers, Losing the Fight Going Down Swinging, Jocko/Echo Backstory

Episode Date: April 6, 2016

0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:33 - Book Review, "Beyond Band of Brothers", by Dick Winters 1:17:24 - Rough Transitions 1:25:30 - Jocko Podcast and Onnit Stuff 1:28:24 - Is Extreme Ownership the same as Apologizing? 1:33:04 - Can you be a "straight shooter" and not be a Jerk? 1:42:21 - Jocko's #1 Philosophical lesson from Jiu Jitsu. 1:54:48 - Over-commitment to a wrong opinion. 1:58:55 - What brought Jocko and Echo together. The back story. 2:22:41 - Losing a fight, but going down swinging.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko Podcast No. 17 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. It's been 10 years since April 2, 2006. 10 years since those of us in 4th Platoon huddled around the radio outside of an Iraqi army post near Camp Ramadi, trying to make sense of the confused and uncertain radio traffic, of the Exo's calm and firm voice from the COC trying to determine what truck had been hit and who was missing. Ten years since we drove the road back towards the Gov Center with fear in our minds and hate in our hearts, knowing we had lost close friends, but not yet sure of the names. Ten years since I met my platoon commander on the darkened steps of the Gov Center as he came down.

from the COC and confirmed which truck it had been. And when I pressed for who was gone, he simply said, all of them. We hadn't yet learned that one guy who was a fucking hard ass, who wasn't going to let death take another Marine that day, and whose recovery has been an inspiration to all those men who know him. 10 years since I did my best to pass the word to my team with steadfastness, but repeating all of them, revealing me for the 20-year-old I was, through the tears I was trying to hold back.

10 years of trying to figure out what their sacrifice meant, of shifting views on what it was all for in the end. that is something that is still a struggle. But I've found solace and purpose in these facts. Staff Sergeant Eric McIntosh. Corporal Scott Procopio. Lance Corporal Coon Young Kim and hospital men Giovanni Padilla

were men who chose to be part of something bigger than themselves. men who chose to enter a profession of crushingly hard work, sacrifice, and danger, all for the simple purpose of protecting the men around them. Staff Sergeant Mack was the epitome of a fighting Marine, a stud who exuded proficiency and professionalism while also being humorous and approachable. Procopio is without a doubt one of the finest men I have ever had the fortune of meeting, a beast of a Marine who drove all around him with his enthusiasm and good nature. While we were peers, I looked up to him and his natural leadership. I still do. Kim had a quiet reliability about him. Unlike the usual loud gregariousness that people

tend to associate with grunts, he was low-key and dependable. And for some reason, I can still see the way a smile would creep over his face when stupid shit was going on and he'd laugh in a way that made it seem like he was seeing a deeper joke that you didn't get yet. Doc Padilla was new to the company, and my memories of him are vague. But the men who knew him better describe a young Corman who was enthusiastic about his job. The funny thing with Corman is that sometimes you don't need to know much to judge their character, besides the fact that these young men volunteered for one specific duty to save the lives of their Marines in combat. A more honorable calling is hard to find. It's easy for today to be

dark, to get sucked into the trap of loss, regret, depression, and anger. It's easy to drown it in liquor under the pretense of having one for the boys. But this morning, as we prepare ourselves to face the tenth of these days, we think of Scott and his booming laugh. He wouldn't want us sitting around mourning like saps, wasting our precious days, burdened with his death like tormented widows out of some 19th century romance fiction. He'd remind us that we all joined up for the same reasons. We are infantry marines. We wanted to fight to energetically meet the enemy in battle and crush him. To serve beside men with whom we would build a bond stronger than most will ever.

know. While the politics are complicated and the outcomes unclear, one thing is certain. Their sacrifice was not in vain, as it was the sacrifice that warriors make for each other. April 2nd

is a day that defines us now, brings us together as brothers. It is a day of remembrance and reflection. A day that gives us reason to look at our lives and say, look you son, of a bitch. This is why you have to live life to the fullest. This is why you must fight every day to be a better man. And then we must just remember that Scott Procopio would call you a pussy

for doing the opposite. Semper five, gents, we will never forget you. So that was a post that someone forwarded to me that was on Reddit. And it was from a An anonymous Marine. Obviously, this Marine was from the 3-8 Marines who we served with in Ramadi, who were just outstanding warriors. And I thought that that tribute not only to the fallen, but also a form of counsel to his fellow Marines. I just thought that that was an amazing piece of writing, and I wanted to share it with everyone April 2nd. Now, speaking of Ramadi, which, you know, just like this Marine, it's something that I think about all the time, and something that I refer back to in a couple podcasts ago, we talked about the band of brothers,

the first of the 506, who we also served with in Ramadi. And it is a truly hallowed unit. And if you've seen the HBO miniseries Band of Brothers, just a fantastic memorial and representation of these American fighting men. And the leader of that group, or one of the leaders of Easy Company and then of the battalion, was a guy by the name of Major Dick Winners. And he wrote after he became famous, really,

from the first book by Stephen Ambrose called Band of Brothers, and then the miniseries came out called Band of Brothers. He wrote a book, which is called Beyond Band of Brothers, the war memoirs of major dick winners. And I got to this book basically because I was going to do Band of Brothers, the Stephen Ambrose. But as everybody knows, or if you don't know, I like to get the source of material from the people that were there.

Stephen Ambrose is a historian. And so I identified this book as I was researching more deeply into Band of Brothers. I very quickly found this book, ordered it, And yeah, there's no doubt. So let me to kick this off. As battalion operations officer, Hester pointed to where an enemy machine gun was located and approximately where a four-gun battery of 105s was situated. That was all he knew.

Captain Hester turned to me and said, there's fire along that hedge road there. Take care of it. That was the sum of my orders. no detailed battle plan, no intelligence summary, nothing but a specific task to be accomplished without delay. Easy company's mission was to silence the battery. And we talk about the basic principles of combat. One of them is simple, clear, concise.

There you go. That's your orders. There's fire along that hedgerow. Take care of it. And this is also obviously an unbelievable example of decentralized command. You go solve this problem. and his response is I got it. Back to the book.

Conducting a mental estimate of the situation I viewed any infantry assault on the battery as a high-risk opportunity since our air forces had failed to destroy the artillery battery in the preliminary bombardment prior to the seaborne invasion. Our key would be initiative and immediate appraisal of the situation, skillful use of the terrain, and our ability to destroy one gun at a time. So you'll notice. he's going to he's already as soon as he knows that there's multiple guns what does he decide to do one gun at a time solve one problem at a time a little something we like to call prioritize and execute the first thing I did was have everybody drop all equipment except ammunition and grenades for that was all we would need

if things went from good to bad so get rid of the things you don't need focus on this one task that we've got right now it's another prioritize and execute order right there while the non-commissioned officers prepared the men for the assault, I conducted a hasty reconnaissance of the enemy position. A leader gains an advantage in combat if he's able to appraise the terrain and the situation quickly and correctly. Crawling along the hedgerow, I moved to a position where I could get a better view of the enemy position. The guns appeared to be set in the trench in the head row covered by a machine gun fire from

across an open pasture. The battery was firing directly down Causeway No. 2 in the direction of Utah Beach, where the initial waves of the 4th Infantry Division were already landing. So you've got these German guns in an elevated position hammering Utah Beach where the 4th Infantry Division is trying to land right now. It's a nightmare. Anticipating that it would be too costly to conduct a frontal attack across an open field, I determined our chances of success would be greatly enhanced if we could hit the enemy

on the flank and silence one gun at a time. hit the enemy on the flank. Again, these are basic principles. And I hate using the word basic because it's fundamentals. There's nothing basic about it. It's basic, but it's beautiful. Beautiful and its simplicity.

Returning to the company, I assigned specific missions to each man. So everybody knows what their task is going to be. First, I placed one of easy companies two machine guns in a position where they could provide covering fire. as we move carefully into position. Cover and move.

Cover and move. Next, I divided our detachment into two units, one led by Lieutenant Buck Compton and the other remaining with me. Compton moved down one hedgerow with Sergeant Garnier and Malarkey to get as close to the first gun in the battery as possible while I led my unit down a parallel hedgerow. Compton also sent Sergeant's Lipton and Rainey

to a concealed position. to put flanking fire on the enemy while my detachment crawled across the open field to approach the gun first. So you've got multiple cover and move situations going on right now. And again, to the military folks that are listening to this, you could breeze through this description and miss how important that is, how important and what a great example of cover and move this is. You got to put down that cover fire. You've got to put down that cover fire and that's why you've got to bring them heavy weapons out there. Bring those AWs out, boys. Lots of them.

When my group, back to the book, when my group consisting of Corporal Joe Toy, PFC Robert Popeye Wynn, and Private Gerald Lorraine from regimental headquarters, reached the hedge that led to the enemy position, we stopped. Here I placed a second machine gun to engage the first gun that was firing point-blank at us. I gave the gun or instructions not to fire unless he saw a definite target so he would not give away his position. Then we worked our way up to Compton's head row. Here I spotted a German helmet and squeezed off two rounds.

Later I found a pool of blood at this position, but no Jerry. And Jerry is a term for German. Next, I sent Compton with two men along the hedge to throw a hand grenade at the enemy position while the rest of us supported him with covering fire. These guys don't do anything without covering fire. I fired occasionally to fill spots when there was a low in the covering fire due to putting in new clips. Compton took too long getting his detachment into position, and we spent more ammunition than we should have,

but in return, we receive no enemy fire. So that covering fire, even though it took too long, but they didn't receive any enemy fire because they were laying down that fire. They were laying down that covering fire. Just as Compton was ready to hurl his grenades, I started across the field with the rest of the assault team so that we jumped into the position together

as the grenades exploded. Simultaneously, we heard additional grenades at the next position. In return, we received substantial small alarms fire and grenades from the enemy. As we approached the first gun, Popeye Wynn was hit in the butt and fell down in the trench. Rather than complaining that he was hit, he apologized. I'm sorry, Lieutenant. I goofed. I goofed. I'm sorry. My God, it's beautiful when you think of a guy who is so dedicated to his company that he apologizes for getting hit. now here was a soldier hit by enemy fire in Normandy on D-Day behind German lines and he's more upset that he let his buddies down than he was concerned with his own injury.

Popeye's action, Popeye's actions spoke for all of us. Now I'm fast forwarding a little bit to they get these guns taken down. With the entire battery now destroyed, we now withdrawing. because the machine gun fire that we were receiving from the manor house and other positions remained intense. I pulled our own machine guns out first, then the riflemen. I was last to leave, and as I was leaving, I took a final look down the trench, and there was one wounded Jerry trying to put a machine gun into operation. I drilled them through the head.

On our way back, I came across warrant officer J.G. Andrew Hill, who had been killed working his way up to help us. in all we had suffered four dead six wounded and we had inflicted 15 dead and 12 captured enemy German forces in the vicinity the battery had numbered about 50 about three hours passed since I had received the order to dispose of the battery and then so they take care of that they conduct some other smaller operations and then it goes to the sort of the end of D-Day at long last D-Day was over our success had been to superb leadership at all levels and the training we had experienced prior

to the invasion. Add luck to the equation and easy company comprised a formidable team. On reflection, we were highly charged. We knew what to do and we conducted ourselves as part of a well-oiled machine. Because we were so intimate with each other, I knew the strengths of each of my troopers. This is something that he refers back to a lot Was really understanding his men What they were like what drove them

What their strength and weaknesses were So he could put them in the correct positions Evening allowed us A few minutes of quiet reflection With our outposts in place I stretched out to catch a few hours of sleep Even though the rattle of German small arms fire Continued throughout the night

Before I dozed off I did not forget to get on my knees and thank God for helping me live through this day and to ask his help on D plus one. I would live this war one day at a time and I promised myself that if I survived, I would find a small farm somewhere in Pennsylvania countryside and spend the remainder of my life in quiet and peace.

Now, as you hear about Dick Winters, and I wanted to cover at least one engagement on actual engagement. And that's one of them. So you can kind of see the methodology, the principles that he's putting into action. But, you know, I want to concentrate not so much on the action now, but more on the leadership,

the leadership pieces of it. Although there still be, I still do talk about some of the combat situations that they get into because they were in a war. But I want to check in, going back a little bit from where he came from, what his mindset, what developed it. And he says this,

I had a wonderful mother, very conservative. She came from a Mennonite family, but never converted to that faith. Honesty and discipline were driven into my head from day one. At some point, am I just going to have to stop, like even accenting these things?

These common themes that are just run through these leaders? Not surprisingly, a mother was undoubtedly one of the most influential people in my life. A mother takes a child, she nurtures him, she instills disciplined, and she teaches respect. My mother was the first one up every morning. She prepared breakfast for my sister, Anne, and me, and she was the last one to bed every evening. in many respects she was the ideal company commander and subconsciously I'm sure I patterned my own leadership abilities on this remarkable woman so it's interesting he all he talked about was that she was the

first one to work and she was the last one to leave work meaning she was the first one up in the morning and she was the last one to leave and with that statement alone he said that she's the ideal company commander now for those of you that aren't in the military a company commander is There's several companies in a battalion. There could be three, maybe four, maybe even five, depending on the task organization. But it's 100, maybe 150 guys generally in a company. So he's saying that his mom would be a ideal company commander.

Why? Because she wakes up early and has a lot of discipline. Newsflash. Now, speaking of, yeah, I won't read any more. actions, here's another action. I positioned men on both sides of the road and prepared to move out in order to secure the intersection. So here they are on a move. They've got to secure an intersection.

Lieutenant Welsh led first platoon at the head of the company column. Precisely on schedule, I hollered Welsh, move out. Just as the attack started, a German machine gun located in a building at the foot of the hill started to fire up the road. The German gun crew was in perfect position. at the perfect time to wipe out our entire attack. From the left-hand side of the road, Welsh pushed six men towards the intersection. They went straight at that intersection

and the enemy machine gun. The enemy fire, however, was very effective. Our men on both sides of the road kept low profiles in the ditches, heads down, and they froze in place, leaving Welsh and his six men assaulting the intersection alone. To my rear, Colonel Strayer and his staff, including Captain Hester and Nixon, could see what was happening. They, in turn, were hollering at me.

Get them moving. Winners, get them moving. I struggled out of my harness to rid myself of excess equipment so that I could run, since it was obvious what needed to be done. So guess what? People aren't moving. People aren't taking action, and it's obvious to him what needs to be done. standing in the middle of the column on the right hand side of the road, I hollered,

move out, move out. This did no good. Everyone had his heads down. This was the one and only time in the war that I really blew my top and physically kicked ass. I came out of that ditch with only my M1 in hand and hollering, I ran to the head of the column, kicked ass on the left side of the road, then ran to the right side of the road back and forth, screaming at my top of my voice, get going. I will never forget the surprise and fear on those faces looking up at me.

With me running around on the road like a wild man, the machine gunner seemed to zero in on me. I was a wide open target. The bullet snapped by and glanced off the road all around me. For a short time, I had the feeling of being blessed. That feeling didn't last too long for I was to find out in a few minutes that I wasn't so blessed. And the reason I highlighted that section right there, because in the next, literally the next page in the book, you know, you get this idea. And again, this is the idea that people have of military leaders is that there are these hard-ass guys and these kick-ass guys that are running around and yelling like what I just read. And I wanted to highlight that because now we fast forward one page in the book.

In taking the intersection, easy companies sustain 10 casualties. Among our wounded were Sergeant Lipton, Ed Tipper, and Burr Smith. Another casualty was Private Albert Blythe, who was in the aid station sitting with his back against the wall when I entered to have my wound cleaned. Because, by the way, Major Winters got hit, and so he's in there getting his wound clean. Now he's looking at Private Blythe, and he says here, I did not notice any wounds. So I asked, how are you doing, Blythe? I can't see, I can't see, he replied. I remember trying to comfort him by saying,

It's okay, Blythe, relax. They'll have you out of here soon, and they'll send you back to England. As I started to move away, Blythe stood up suddenly, saying, I'm okay, I'm okay, I can see now. As soon as Blythe regained his vision, he immediately returned to duty. If you think about that for a minute, that boy had been paralyzed by fear. Yet he had the guts and dedication to stick to his buddies in easy company.

As soon as he relaxed and pulled himself together, he returned to the front rather than taking the easy way out with an evacuation. Sometimes all a soldier needed was a calm voice, reassuring him that everything was fine. In Bly's case, he rejoined the company and was wounded in action during the upcoming front. fight. After World War 2, he served in the

187th Airborne Regiment in the Korean War, where he was awarded a Silver Star and the Bronze Star. By the time he retired for military service, Blythe was a company first sergeant. So the contrast there

is that, you know, instead of pulling a general George Patton and slapping the guy around and saying, you're not wounded, he realized what he needed to do, which was his comfort the guy, and say, hey, listen, everything's be all right. We'll get you on a plane. We'll get you back to England. Just take it easy. Here's a section that I'm just going to jump too quickly when he's talking about the confusion

getting in the confusion getting our men into position was as bad as we were to ever see. One time I found easy company troops firing into troops of another battalion. Later we had some tanks show up for support and they began firing into our own line. so that's blue on blue it's fratricide and you know we talk about it in our book and

it's one of those things that they usually don't show it they usually don't portray it because it's hard to believe that things can get that confusing but they do and it goes all the way back in a clear example

right there now we're going back to Blythe and this is an interesting comment on training. On one of our daylight patrols led by Sergeant Garnier, Blythe was point man when he spotted

a German sniper in a tree. Just as he did in training, he automatically said bang, bang, instead of dropping to the side of the road and putting his rifle on the sniper. So if you can imagine you're back in America or when they were doing their

pre-attack training in England and they weren't used. in real bullets, so they're out on a patrol, and if they saw something, he go, bang, bang. Well, that's literally what the guy did. The German reacted first and shot Blythe through the collarbone. The rest of the patrol recovered Blythe and then withdrew to easy lines. So, again, military people that are listening, law enforcement, you train how you fight, and you fight how you train.

So you just got to keep that in mind all the time. if you're giving yourself some kind of a trainings car by doing something like a lip gun. We actually did this in the SEAL team. Lip gun, that's what we called it. It's embarrassing. You know, in my early days, that's what we didn't have a choice. Like what you make sound?

Like bang, bang, yeah. Your mouth thing. And, you know, thankfully now they have, you know, unbelievable good systems, you know, the paintball type systems that go in our real guns, the laser tag type systems. So we don't have to use lip guns. Back to the book.

Next sector. Success breeds confidence. And easy company success in Normandy instilled the confidence that they would need to succeed and live to fight another day. At the same time, I could not help but think that had I trained the men harder, if I had done a better job, maybe more of my men would have come home. That's something a leader is always going to be thinking. always going to be thinking that what could we have done better what could i have done better now they they get back to england they're taking a break they get pulled off the line and he's back in alborn he's just talking about he's sort of reflecting back on his initial push into

europe and you know you got guys they're out drinking and doing whatever they're doing and he says, as for myself, I relaxed the best I could. Combat had made me tense, particularly since my decisions now meant life or death to the members of my command. Commanding soldiers in combat requires a personal detachment from the men themselves. In a sense, command is the loneliest job in the world. Looking at myself in the mirror, I could see how much I had changed. I could sense it. Another thing that affected me was the importance of discipline, the necessity of instilling discipline in my troops and getting the job done in combat.

In an attempt to escape the tension that combat had caused, I developed a heavier-than-usual exercise regimen, and I attended church on a regular basis. There were only a few days that I didn't run two to three miles, do 80 push-ups, 60 sit-ups on a foot locker and a couple of splits and some leg and trunk exercises after the day's work was over. As a result, I kept in pretty good shape, not what I'd call wrestling shape, but good enough for army work. Physical activity kept me mentally alert, built my endurance, and kept me supple. You got to do it. You got to have that discipline and you got to work out. You got to do it every day. It's that important. Yeah, you see how he mentioned how it kept him mentally sharp?

It absolutely does. Yeah, I said that before where that's, that's one of the few things that you can do that affects everything else in life. You are correct. I think people a lot of time in regards to exercise, people think, well, exercise, that's for a certain kind of person, you know, maybe a fitness person or something like that. It's for a dumb jock, right? I'm a smart person, so I'm not going to exercise. Sure. Wrong answer. Yeah, I think nowadays people are more hip to it for sure.

Do you say hip? Hipman, yeah, down with the cause, the new stuff, you know. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it is interesting how these leaders back then they knew that. Yep. Even though at that time there had been no scientific study, there's scientific studies now that prove it. He didn't know that. He just knew it.

Yeah, he felt it. He lived it. You lived it. You know. Now, there are in a. a position now, again, I'm just fast forward. And even though I said I wasn't going to cover too much of the combat, I'm covering the combat. Because the combat is what puts these people in these leadership positions.

Combat is the ultimate teacher, the harshest teacher. And it teaches you lessons that you do not forget. So they're around this village of FOI, which is a village that was held by the Germans, and they'd been waiting. And it'd been, it'd been a while. And here's Winners talking about his troops. They were now completely exhausted. They had had no hot food, little sleep, no rest, constant tension, and the pressure of combat.

The worst time was night when temperatures plummeted and fog covered the battlefield until mid to late morning. The uncertainty of what lay just yards ahead. in the next treelon was sufficient to break ordinary men. Not surprisingly, the men became physically exhausted. Physical exhaustion leads to mental exhaustion, which in turn causes men to lose discipline. Loss of self-discipline then produces combat fatigue. Self-discipline keeps a soldier doing his job. without it he loses his pride and he loses the importance of self-respect in the eyes of his fellow soldiers

it is pride that keeps a soldier going and keeps him in the fight this is what i feared i would lose the loss of will to measure up to my men after seeing others break down you wondered who is next and you started taking a hard look at yourself i often wondered why i didn't break under the strain of combat. One factor undoubtedly lay in the fact that my battalion headquarters lay 75 yards behind the forward foxholes. No longer was I under enemy observation.

Consequently, I was able to concentrate on my duties without fear of enemy small arms fire. Another factor was undoubtedly my physical conditioning. I don't think there was a man in the battalion who was in better physical shape than I was. My responsibility to ensure the safety of the soldiers also hardened me to cope with the daily stress of combat. One last observation on combat fatigue. When you see a man break, he usually slams his helmet down and messes up his hair. I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious, but a soldier goes to his head and massages his head, shakes it, and then he's gone. You can talk to him all you want, but he cannot hear you.

When he reaches that point, the best thing for everybody is just to let him take a walk. Combat exhaustion occurs instantaneously. You don't plan to become a combat fatigue casualty. How do you prevent combat fatigue? You talk to your troops and make some excuse to pull a soldier off the front line. Of course, pulling a soldier off the front line increases the stress of those who remain, but is a necessary trade-off. I often asked a soldier whom I saw on the verge of a breakdown, how about coming back with me to the CP to help out for a couple of days?

In this manner, you invent a reason for pulling a guy from the line without damaging his psyche. So a bunch of stuff there on combat fatigue. And I'm not saying that you're going to see combat fatigue in the civilian world. I mean, but you do see people get stressed out in business. And I thought that that comment about people messing up their hair and grabbing their head, that's a really good indicator of when people are breaking. And I'll tell you, one of the things, this is something that we talk about in the book as well as for us, the guys that had the most resistance to combat fatigue were the guys that were most intricately involved in the. the planning of the operations because they felt like they had some control. And unfortunately for us, we didn't know this.

So we had guys that weren't involved like, you know, maybe they were a new guy or maybe they just weren't that involved in the planning or whatever. So all they were getting told was like, hey, get your gear on. You're going out again. Come back from that operation. Hey, get your gear on and going out again. Come back from that operation. Hey, get your gear on.

You're going out again. Those guys that didn't really get involved in the planning, it was harder for them because they didn't feel like they had any control. and they didn't see the risk mitigation that was happening, and they didn't understand the strategy well enough. Why? Because I didn't tell them. My fault.

You know, I should have been more engaged with them. I should have explained to them the impact that they were having. I should have explained to them the overall strategic picture. And I tried to do that, and I thought I did it, but I didn't do it well enough. And those are the guys that definitely were the most stressed out. So leaders out there, it's just another reason. It's another reason to tell people why they're doing what they're doing. and get them involved in the planning,

and get them ownership of the planning, so that they feel like they have some control over it. Interesting how they mentioned how they dealt with that when they'd pull them off the line, right? But they wouldn't just be like straight up, straight dope. Hey, you're messing up, get off the line. It was like they pulled them off the line in a way that wouldn't mess them up, you know?

Hey, we need you to take care of the supply issue. You go back there for me and get this figured out. Yeah, okay, I'll do it. Give them a break. Give them a rest. There's something Hackworth talked about, too. I mean, Hackworth says, in about face, you know, he talks about, he just says, hey, everyone's got a cup, a certain size cup. Some people have a bigger cup than others, but when the cup gets filled up, that's it.

They're done. And if you let the cup get filled up and overflow, then they're done forever. But if you can catch it beforehand, they can go back a little bit and drain their cup out. But that's exactly what you talk about when you say manipulation, right? Like how you tell them just in a kind of a gingerly kind of way, you know, to make them. Make them signed on to the whole situation. Yeah. Yeah, no doubt about it.

This is going back to his discipline. My routine was to shave every morning and then to inspect the line. In retrospect, shaving in the bitter cold was pretty ridiculous. But the practice had originated with one of my first meetings with Colonel Sink. At Toccoa, Sink had required us to shave every morning. He said, you shave every morning for the men. Men, and if you want to, shave every evening for the women, but that's up to you. But I want you to set an example.

He was absolutely right. I remember one morning when we prepared for our attack on FOI. I got up in the middle of the night to shave before getting something to eat. In the process, I cut myself up pretty badly. I must have looked like hell. When Colonel Sink arrived to check on us before the attack commenced, he took one look at me and had a huge smile on his face. face. I later, I realized later that he was laughing at me for shaving on that bitterly cold morning.

But that was one of the things I did to set an example for the men, shave in the morning, and once in a while I would strip to the waist and give myself a French wash, a routine that caught everyone's attention. I did this for one reason and one reason only, to get the men's attention and to let them know that I was going to be around for a while, and this wasn't as bad as they thought it was going to be. Make the best of it. And what I like about that is his total awareness, his total awareness of the impact that he's having on his men.

He knows that they are watching them. If you're in a leadership position, you've got to recognize that people are watching you. Parents. Yeah. Yeah, if you're a parent, you've got to realize that person that you're leading called your child, they're watching you.

Yeah, man. It's more critical than most of the time anyway than what you say. So, you know, and people will make this excuse kind of this saying that they say, hey, do what I say, not what I do. Meanwhile, you're doing all this stuff. That's not how. They're going to be like, oh, that's just something you say. Meanwhile, this is how you do it.

Apparently, mom and dad are doing it this way. That's the way it's done regardless of what they say. Yeah. You got to do the right thing. And people are watching you. When you're in a leadership position, you are being watched. You are being emulated. Mm-hmm.

Your emotions are being mimicked. You don't know that. You might not sense that, but your emotions are being mimicked. You get into a panic mode, you're going to have a bunch of people panicking. You stay calm. Your people are going to stay calm. You get crazy. Your people are going to go crazy.

Your people are watching you. So set the good example. And one of the premier examples he's setting is he's maintaining the discipline. Now, this actually section, I don't, it's very interesting because we, had I had made a comment on the podcast about hey what do you do someone asked what do you do if you get told to do something and you don't believe in it right and you know I went through a big gray area and said look you know there's there's there's some gray area there and if it's just something small that you could ask to do and you just if you decide you're going to lay down

the law right now and bang your fist on the table and say I'm not going to do that well then you're going to get fired right and now someone else is going to have to come in there and do that thing that you've been asked to do. And I had one person on Twitter that kind of went back and forth with me. And, you know, he said, hey, it does make an impact when you walk away. And I agreed with him. I said, yes. I'm not trying to say it doesn't make an impact when you walk away because it certainly does.

But there's cases where it has more of an impact if you stay and you stay in the game. So this is an example right here, a pretty shocking example, because we have a guy that's 100% on board and is, you know, a straight shooting guy that listens to his chain of command. And here's what happens. Colonel Bob Sink was a magnificent commander, but this time he had had a little too much to drink. And his order to dispatch another patrol to capture additional prisoners did not. make sense. We had already captured sufficient prisoners for interrogation. A second patrol would only result in casualties for no apparent reason.

Further exacerbating the situation was freshly fallen snow along the river that had quickly turned to ice during the day. If I followed Colonel Singh's order, the enemy would have heard us coming a long way off. What to do? I responded, yes, sir, and then promptly ignored the order. So he's doing what I was basically, what I was saying. Like if he just said, no, sir, we're not going to do that. Guess what?

He's going to get fired. And now we're going to get someone else put in charge. And even if he doesn't get fired, he's hurting his reputation. So it's a bad situation. But what he decides to do is go, got it, sir. We'll take care of it. and then he promptly ignores the order. Now back to the book.

To give the impression of compliance, however, I assembled the men in a building and told them we were not going to send out this patrol because I did not think it was feasible. I also informed them that my neck was in a noose if anyone ever said anything about it. With that, the men lay down and caught some much-needed sleep and I took the radio and adjusted mortar and artillery fire

on my supposed objective. And here's his thoughts on it. On reflection, I did exactly the right thing, and I have never had any regrets. There was insufficient time for preparation. The field to our front was wide open, and I would have lost too many men for no purpose. I wonder what I would have done had I been a career officer concerned about my own future. Would I have compromised my beliefs? The deliberate disobedience of a lawful order by my commanding officer presented an ethical dilemma of the first magnitude.

But you can see it's a guy who's staying on his principles. And his principles were to accomplish the mission, take care of his men. And he's weighing those things. Those things aren't black and white. Those things are not black and white because you look at all the times he did do operations and missions and tasks. He's where his guys got wounded and killed. but he saw what the purpose was and now he sees something where there's no purpose

and he says you know what, not going to do it. But he doesn't tell the boss, he just doesn't execute it. So, and you know, there's stories of seals in Vietnam doing that. And I heard that from the Vietnam seals would tell me, hey, if they got directed to do something that they didn't think was a good mission, I've talked about this before,

oh, we're going to go, you want us to go three kilometers away and set up an ambush on this river that's in really tough enemy-controlled area, and we don't know what the intelligence is on who's going to come down that river. Okay, cool. And they'd patrol 200 meters out the gate, set up a little perimeter, right close to camp, where there's no problems, smoke a couple cigarettes, spend a few hours out there, walk back, yeah, hey, nothing happened.

No one came down the river. I would think you'd have to be pretty responsible, though, if you're going to kind of exercise that course of action. Otherwise, you get someone who's just like, nope, nope, nope, don't feel like it, don't feel like it. Yeah, no, it's obviously something. It's obviously something that a guy like Dick Winters did very rarely. And the SEALs in Vietnam, it's not like they were blowing missions off all the time. Right.

But they, you know, like I said, if something comes up where you completely disagree with it, but you don't disagree with it to the point where you want to make a stand that's going to make you get fired. Now you're not supporting your guys anymore. Yeah. You know, okay, cool, you kept them alive that night. Well, who's coming in to take your place? Right. That's the question.

Who's coming in to take your place? And you don't know who that is. And what's their best interest going to be? Because whoever comes in to take your place is going to be a company guy that's going to be, you know, he's going to be a guy that's going to obey every last direct order from the guy. And this is, you know, it's strange too. I mean, here I am. I'm a, I mean, I was as motivated it to be in the military as I could possibly be. You know, so I'm not sitting here calling from mutiny from guys.

But I am telling you to use common sense. And you've got to put common sense on top of everything. And sometimes common sense outweighs orders. That's just the way it is. It's rare. And I said this last time as well. It's rare. It's not like you're getting these crazy orders from up the chain of command.

People aren't advancing in the military because they're idiots. Right. Yeah. And it's not like they're not on your team. And it's not like they want you to get killed. Right. And, you know, maybe, you know, in this case, he could have given some pushback and said, hey, you know what, boss, here's what's going on.

There's fresh snow. They're going to hear us coming a mile away. We don't have good cover to the front. This is not a good operation. But maybe he heard the tone of the colonel's voice and just said, hey, this guy, it's, if I say that and then I don't do it. Or if I say that, it's going to make me suspicious. So you know what? I got it, sir, and then don't do it.

Just a judge, a judgment of character. But that's what you've got writing on you when you're in a leadership position. Yeah. You got those guys. lives. And that should be more important to you than anything. And it's a strange dichotomy of leadership because on the one hand, you're trained your whole military career that you've got to take care of your men, take care of your people. That's something you get trained on since day one. Take care of your team. And the dichotomy of that is you're going to do missions where you could

very well be sending your men to their death. So there's a massive dichotomy there. And how do you deal with the dichotomy? You find the balance. And the balance is not a cookie cutter response. The balance is different for each scenario that

you're in. And how well you can weigh those opposing forces is a measure of what kind of leader you are. That's what makes leadership hard. Now, We're getting to, they've moved through Europe. And now we're about to go from war to something even more evil,

which is the concentration camps, the death camps. So back to the book, as they enter, this is back to the book as they enter their death camps for the first time. The horror of what we observed remains. with each paratrooper to this day. You could not explain it. You could not describe it. And you could not exaggerate it. It did not take long to realize that the Nazis were intent

on eliminating all the Jews, gypsies, and anyone who disagreed with Hitler's regime. The memory of starved, dazed men who dropped their eyes and heads when we looked at them through the chain-link fence in the same manner that a beaten mistreated dog would cringe left a mark on all of us forever nor could you underestimate the barbarity of the Nazi regime even during the latter stages of the war as I went

through the war it was natural to ask myself why am I here why am I putting up with a freezing cold the constant rain and the loss of so many comrades does anybody care a soldier faces death on a daily basis and his life is one of misery and deprivation. He is cold. He suffers from hunger, frequently bordering on starvation. The impact of seeing those people behind that fence left me saying, if only to myself, now I know why I am here. For the first time, I understand what this war is all about.

and obviously seeing that evil firsthand. And that's one of the reasons why I think we explore the darkness and the evil on a fairly regular basis here. And that's why I explore it. That's why my mind is drawn to these things. Because you've got to understand that evil's out there. And it's still here today. And somebody has got to take the fight to the enemy. Now, I'm jumping towards the end of the book.

And again, it's not really, I'm not giving anything away. I mean, we know how World War II ended. But this is how Colonel Winters, or sorry, Major Winters kind of wraps up their combat. Back to the book. And so many of the Toccoa veterans returned home. Yet all would be forever connected by their shared experiences in combat. Over the course of the war, Easy Company alone lost 48 men killed and over 100 wounded, incurring 150% casualties.

This percentage was not uncommon among similar units who had fought in the campaign of Northwest Europe. At the peak of its effectiveness, in Holland and October of 1940, and in the Ardennes in January, 1945, it was as good a rifle company as there was in the world, according to Arthur Stephen E. Ambrose. How so many men survived the campaigns in Normandy, Holland, Bastogne, and Germany was a true testament to their courage, their training,

and their discipline under fire. Now I want to fast forward a little bit more. to he's he's done he's now out of the military and I know we got a lot of people that listen to the show because a lot of you guys reach out to me and talk about that transition a lot of people ask me about that transition and here's dick winter's transition while I was extremely happy to put the army behind me I realized that I was a different man than I was when I joined the the army over four years earlier. The war had changed me in many ways, as it does all who experience combat.

Having witnessed so much mass suffering and the unparalleled barbarism that mankind is capable of inflicting upon itself, I don't see how any survivor can ever be cruel to anything again. In addition, I was a far better judge of character than I had been in. 1941. That feeling remains with me today a full 60 years after the war. When I meet people for the first time and get to know them, I can't help but judge them and size them up. Do they have leadership? Would they be good in combat? Do they pass the test? I was also more disciplined than I remembered being before I deployed to Europe. This discipline helped me adapt

to civilian life once I returned to Pennsylvania. Like all veterans, I had to adjust to society, the life that you're going to share with others in order to make a living. I certainly never confused the challenges in the workplace with what I experienced in combat. There would be no life and death struggles in the corporate world. Business hardly equates to war. Such comparisons demean the word. and when I read that I actually had to put myself into check

because and I wanted to make sure that I'm clear about something because something I am obviously we wrote a book that's about comparing business and war but I want to make it clear that what we're comparing and what we say is similar in fact they're the same is the principles the principles of leadership are the same The struggles and the challenges and the consequences are not the same. They are not.

So I want to make sure I make that clear. Now, let's get to some of his reflections on leadership. Was I a successful leader? They tell me I was and modesty prevents me from disagreeing with them. I am not so naive that I don't realize the wide appeal of Dick Winners today is based on leadership in combat. I may not have been the best commander, but I always strove to be. My men depended on me to carefully analyze every tactical situation, to maximize the resources that I had at my disposal,

to think under pressure, and to lead them by personal example. I think it's interesting even here, you know, he's looking back and he's a humble guy. You know, I may have not been the best combat commander, but I always tried to be. This is a humble man. I am not sure there is such a thing as a natural born leader. Some leaders are born with special aptitudes or talents. But any success I might have had was the product of good upbringing, intense study and preparation and physical conditioning that set me apart from my peers.

Here's Dick Winners. I mean, one of the best kind of combat leaders at the tactical. level in the modern era. And he's saying that it was preparation and physical conditioning, setting him apart from his peers. I was also, back to the book, I was also surrounded by a group of men who were disciplined and highly trained to accomplish any mission. Add luck to the equation and you can understand that the secret to my success was that somehow I always managed to survive another day.

In recent years, I've been asked to address an increasing number of civic groups. corporate seminars and governmental agencies on the subject of leadership. Most are looking for cookie cutter solutions as to what constitutes a successful leader. What is the recipe for success? And this is classic. And actually, when the book, when Laif and I, the book came out, when our book came out, we did a bunch of interviews that got turned into either short articles or videos. clips and they would they title these things you know like three things every leader must do and

that's what they always do everyone's looking exactly for what he says most are looking for cookie cutter solutions to what constitutes a successful leader what is the recipe for success in truth there are no simple solutions just as there is no average day in combat each situation is different and each requires a leader to be flexible in adapting his or her particular leadership style to the specific circumstances required to accomplish any mission. It's a matter of adjusting to the individual and you do this every day. You don't have just one way of treating people. You adjust yourself to whom you are talking.

If I were to give advice to a young leader going to war based on my observation of what I had constituted the success of the outstanding leaders who comprise the American Parachute Infantry Regiments of World War II, I would offer a series of principles that I am certain would result in great success, regardless of the field endeavor, field of endeavor, in which the individual is participating. So here he's saying the same thing that I say, which is leadership is the same, whether it's in the battlefield or whatever endeavor you're going into, leadership principles stay the same. first and foremost, a leader should strive to be an individual of flawless character, technical competence, and moral courage.

If you have character, that means you are the guy, that means the guy you are dealing with can trust you. The men trust you, have faith in you, and they obey you no questions asked. That's character in a nutshell. character also allows you to make decisions quickly and correctly. Some may question my decision to disobey a direct order for my commanding officer. This is the story we already talked about. And to fake another patrol as a violation of that very principle I'm advocating. In my heart, however, I could not send my men to risk their lives for no apparent reason

when clearly nothing would have been gained that we had not already achieved. Such a course takes a degree of moral courage, which I have found is far rarer than physical courage. Was I correct? In my estimation, I thought so, and I have never regretted my decision. The same holds true for developing leaders of competency. Those entrusted to lead must study their profession to become totally proficient in tactics and technology. Prior to the invasion, I read every tactical manual I could lay my hands on to improve my tactical knowledge and professional competence while other soldiers were out carousing in the pubs. While they were enjoying the social life of the neighboring towns, I was reading and educating myself, getting ready to lead men into combat, getting smarter, opening up the books.

That's what he was doing. And that's part of leadership. That's part of his characteristics of leadership is to become knowledgeable to read and study. He goes on, don't waste time attempting to define leadership. No need to go to a dictionary. The infantry school at Fort Benning, Georgia,

has defined leadership in just two words via its motto. Follow me. And he's going to do it again right here. Physical fitness is another point. Pre-requisite for success. I freely admit that I was blessed with a sound physical constitution, but whenever possible, I took the opportunity to improve my physical stamina. Because I was in such good physical shape, I easily survived to COA. That's their initial training that they went through for airborne. While men washed out on a daily basis, the contingent from easy company that completed the training and earned their wings at Fort Benning were tough as nails. Because I was in such good shape, My fatigue level never reached the point of physical exhaustion that contributes to mental exhaustion and ultimately to combat fatigue. We all experience sleep deprivation at times. That is the nature of stress.

But a physically exhausted leader routinely makes poor decisions in times of crisis. And here he talks about another piece. I have always felt that my principal contribution to the success of both Easy Company and Second Battalion, was based on my knowledge of what to expect from each man. Know your people. Having selected the right men for the right job, I then delegated the authority to my subordinates and allowed them to use their initiative to execute the mission.

Decentralized command. There is no need to tell someone how to do his job if you have properly trained your team. Good preparation is always vital to the success of any operation, but leaders must remain flexible once the action commences. Steve Ambrose likes to quote General Eisenhower, who claimed, before the battle is joined, plans are everything. Once the battle is joined, however, plans go out the window. Next, I would encourage leaders to take a moment of self-reflection before rushing into important decisions. This is a little bit of detachment.

Many leaders don't take the time to consider carefully their decisions or the implications of their actions. In battle, I periodically detached myself mentally from the noises and the chaos of battle. I found it useful to separate myself momentarily and to carefully think through what actions I needed to take to accomplish the mission. Again, I read this book for the first time last week. He's saying detachment straight up. He's saying the exact same. In battle, I periodically detached myself mentally from the noises and chaos of battle. Hang tough.

Never ever give up regardless of the adversity. If you are a leader, a fellow who other fellows look to, you have got to keep going. I would also urge leaders to remain. humble. If you don't worry about who gets the credit, you get a lot more done. Again, this is when people ask me what's the most important quality of a leader. I tell them it's humility. Leaders should assume the blame when the operation fails. When it succeeds, credit the men and women in your team. They do the lion's share of the work. And now he's going to talk about humility a little bit more. since the release of the HBO miniseries

many of us have been flooded with hundreds sometimes thousands of letters from adoring fans across the nation the attention is certainly flattering and greatly appreciated but it remains better to remember Eisenhower's address at Guildhall Hall Hall

on June 12th, 1945 to an ecstatic British public which showered the supreme commander with a tumultuous parade through the streets of London Ike reminded them humility must always be the portion of any man who receives a claim

earned in the blood of his followers and the sacrifices of his friends I think anybody that's ever been in a leadership position and has been called some kind of hero we'll think back to that statement. Humility must always be the portion of any man who receives a claim earned in the blood of his followers and the sacrifices of his friends.

And I think when you use that word hero, it's something that obviously gets thrown around a lot. And here's what major winners had to say about that. perhaps the best characterization of what a true hero consists is found in a letter Sergeant Mike Rainey sent me in January 1982 shortly before he went back to the hospital for a series of tests. Historian Stephen Ambrose used the passage to conclude Band of Brothers because Rainey encapsulated the cohesion that became the hallmark of Easy Company. In thinking back on the days of Easy Company,

I'm treasuring my remark to a grandson who asked, Grandpa, were you a hero in the war? No, I answered. But I served in a company of heroes. And I can tell you that I also served with many, many heroes. The guys in tasking a bruiser, the guys from 228 infantry, the guys from 1-1-A-D in the Ready First,

the soldiers and the Marines, all those brave men. And some brave women as well. And to those men and women, those soldiers and Marines that I was lucky enough to serve with, I think that this statement right here from Dick Winners is something that I think is very fitting. As I look back on the men of Easy Company and the closeness we have enjoyed over the years, I am reminded of the dialogue attributed to a senior German officer bidding farewell to his men in the HBO miniseries, miniseries.

Paraphrasing his words, I would say to Easy Company and the officers and men of the 506 parachute infantry regiment. It has been a long war. It's been a hard war. You have fought bravely, proudly for your country. You are a special group of men connected by a bond that only exists in combat. You've shared the incommunicable experience. of war and have been tested under extreme adversity.

You've shared foxholes and have held each other in dire moments. You've seen death and have suffered together. You've lived in an environment totally incomprehensible to those who do not know war. I am proud and deeply honored to have served with every one of you. You all deserve long and happy. lives in peace. I bid each of you Godspeed and ask the Almighty to shower his blessings on you and your families now and for generations to come. And that wraps the book. And I was thinking after the last podcast that this was going to be a lighter one. And I picked this book specifically because I see

major dick winners as an incredible person, incredible leader, a role model for everyone. But because we are talking about war, there is still tragedy and loss and darkness there. And that's okay. And do you vets out there, like the anonymous Marine that wrote that tribute to his brothers from April 2nd, and we know there's hundreds of thousands of veterans that are feeling that every day. And if you're having one of those dark days, it's okay. It's, it's okay. It's okay to feel that darkness. And it's okay to remember it and miss it and hate it and love it. And it's okay to wish it never happened and at the same time to wish it never stopped. And it's okay to want to take it all

back and at the same time to want to do it all again. And if you've got in your mind that you think that people don't understand, that's okay. They don't, but you do. You know darkness. You know evil, but more important than that. You know good. You know light. You know laughter and love better than anyone. So embrace. Embrace that darkness. Own it. Don't look away from it. Don't bury it in booze or in pills. Listen. Listen to what corporal Scott Procopio would have been saying to you, live your life. Embrace your life with with physical activity and with nature and with jiu jitsu and with sun and with laughter and guitar and good memories and creativity and discipline discipline yourself so you can free yourself and move forward into the future where there's no more darkness and no more war but peace

good evening echo good evening little message to the to the vets out there I hear from a lot of veterans and I just want to know I just wanted to let those guys know you know kind of where I'm coming from

get a lot of real positive stuff from guys and some guys are going through hard times and I know it and you know I'm hoping to be able to kind of spread my thoughts where I'm at

and how what I think of these things because you know if you get guys like major winners that you know did everything that he did in war he came back and you know he was able to figure it out and a lot of those veterans were

and they you know he said it wasn't an easy adaptation that they made but they made it they made it. So I think you've got to embrace those things and be stronger than them. And I know, and I say it all the time, you've got to know that darkness

if you really want to appreciate the light. And I think the guys that have been to war, they can do that. And life can seem so much better because you know how bad it can be. So speaking of feedback from people, rough transition. right now.

But that's what we do here. What? Rough transitions. Rough transitions. And you know what? You know what's interesting about the rough transitions? And any vet that's out there that's listening to me right now? Or anybody that's not a vet, anyone that's been through hard times and loss, it's a big rough transition.

And you go in and out emotionally. And, you know, you'll be feeling like crap one minute. And then the next minute you'll feel okay and you'll be laughing. And that's, that's, like I said, that's okay. I think a lot of people are scared that they might be acting the wrong way, but it's all right. Yeah. It's okay. Yeah, and just like how you're saying where it may seem like people don't understand,

and that's okay because they don't. That's so true because, and this is the way I all think of it because my best friends are, actually they're still in, Navy SEALs. These are guys that you grew up with. grew up with my best friends. They were in my wedding, yeah. So a lot of times, do you know, when I talk to them and stuff, in my own head, I kind of imagine what it's like coming back, right?

So you kind of consider it kind of in a nutshell where you consider, hey, what's your biggest problems when you're overseas, when you're in the war? What are these big problems you've got to worry about, okay? And then let's factor that in, okay, then we come home. And then, okay, let's say in the war, your biggest problem is getting, shot and dying. Your men getting shot and dying, right? Or you getting both your legs blown off or, you know, or whatever. Whatever the, your biggest problem is as far as worrying about. Okay, and then you come home and I don't know, your girlfriend or your wife is like,

hey, I thought I told you to do those dishes and she's flipping out on you. Yeah. And so in the back of your mind, you're kind of like, okay, wait, the comparison, it was two days ago. I was in the desert worried about my legs being blown off. And now I'm here where apparently the biggest problem, according to my girlfriend and wife. The biggest problem on earth. Apparently, because she's yelling at me. She's mad. She won't really talk to me. Are the dishes, yeah.

And it's just not computing, you know? And then you go next door and their biggest problem is kind of on the same level. So, yeah, they don't understand. And you, in a way, you're living in this crazy world where I can see how that could kind of get to you and be like, man, am I wrong? Am I, you know? Yeah. So one of the things that I, and you hear me talk about this before, is perspective.

Yeah. And wanting to see. I always talk about it from a leadership perspective. Like I want to think about what my superior is thinking. Why is he told me to do this? Let me get his perspective. And then what are my, what are my subordinates thinking? What is their perspective?

And it's a very useful tool to use in what you're talking about right now. And I remember I had a situation like that where I was at work and I forget what was going on, but something was going on. I think we were we were preparing to deploy guys earlier there was something major was going on there was some major issues I think it was Afghanistan and we were getting ready to deploy guys early it was a real big spin-up and all this stuff and literally I come home and and and I mean I'm at work and we're trying to figure out how we put this plan together and guys are going to deploy and it's risky you know horrible and you know whatever bunch of stress I come home and I go and I go and Hey, babe, you know how you doing?

I said of my wife. And she's sitting there. And all of a sudden she, like, picks up the phone. And someone calls her, or she, someone calls her, she picks up the phone. And she hangs up, she's like, I can't believe this. And I was like, I thought something, you know, I thought someone died or whatever. And I said, I said, what's wrong? What's wrong?

And she said, it was something along, like, the Wiggles is the same night as Barney. And I booked both tickets. So it was some things she was taking the kids to. That, like, literally. did not matter in any way shape or form to me at all. But to her, you know, she had spent $22 on these tickets for three kids at the time. That's $66. And now she had double book the children for multiple shows.

It was harsh. It was dark. But what I had to do is, well, you know, I had to go in perspective. In her world, man, that was $66, right? Yeah. And it was the kids and it was, they both wanted to see all the shows or whatever the thing was. So in her perspective, in her part of the world, That's a really big deal.

Yeah. And so that's, I think, something you're going to do as a human. Always look at what other people's perspectives are. And you know what? If people are pissed off, if your wife's freaking out because you didn't do the dishes, I got some really easy solution to that. Do the dishes. Just do the dishes.

Yeah. Could be worse. Put on some music and scrub some pots and pans. Let's do this. You know what? I'll scrub some pots and pans. Be happy to. Let's make this happen.

Yeah. That's good, man. And, you know, that if you have the ability and kind of the wherewithal to do that, to really it's detaching. You're detaching in looking at their situation, not looking at it from your own personal situation. If you can manage to do that, and I think it helps when someone reminds you, like, just how you say it right now. And maybe someone will be like, hey, you know what, let me go ahead and remember that next time, you know.

All this stuff, and I say this to leaders all the time when I go out and work with companies, it's so much of it is just about awareness. Yes. When you become aware of the problem, you become aware of the mistake, or you become aware of the solution and it's there in front of you, then it becomes very easy. The problem is people aren't aware of how easy it can be to solve some of these things if you just make this small adjustment to your mentality. Yeah, all you're aware of is the fact that you're freaking steaming, redlining.

Right. Right. For the fifth time, your wife told you to do something when, like I said, you're worrying about your guys getting killed yesterday. Two days ago, yeah. As one of my buddies used to say, when we were coming home from our first deployment, he says, can you believe this?

Tomorrow, we're going to get on an aluminum tube and we're going to wake up back in San Diego. I was like, okay, man. Take it easy. Take it easy, brother. All right. And if you want to support this podcast, you can get some supplements from joccofuel.com.

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Or on joccopodcast.com as well. And click through Amazon. We've got some people posting what they're buying through Amazon, which is awesome. Ah, yes. So, yeah, if you're shopping on Amazon and you want to support the podcast,

just click on our link on Amazon. and then do your shopping like you normally would. Here's a thing. I don't know if I told you is what I added, because my friends on Twitter is troopers. A lot of people were indicating that they like the books that you cover, and they're like, hey, let me get those books. You know what you should do?

You should link. You should have the list, the library of books that you've covered, and link them. So guess what I did? Echoes got, Echo makes things happen. That's what I like that. Now one's on jocco podcast.com. the top I added it on the menu where it says books.

It just says books or I don't know. It says books. Okay. And you click on there to have all the podcast episodes, you know, the book, what podcast episode it was on. You click on it, boom, you can get it. That's awesome. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Let's get to some questions. Okay. Question number one. Is taking extreme ownership the same as apologizing for failures or apologizing for other's mistakes? I'm having difficulty separating these two concepts when I try to take ownership over failures.

Does taking ownership of failure generally include an I'm sorry X occurred, etc., etc.? Well, it isn't just apologizing, right? It isn't just saying, oh, I apologize to this happened. It's part of it. Part of ownership is apologizing. If you make a mistake, you've got to own it and generally you've got to say, hey, look, I'm sorry this happened. You've got to own that there's been a problem or a mistake or an issue. and that does include other people's mistakes.

But you have to literally take ownership of them. You can't say, hey, I'm sorry these other people made mistakes. That's not what I'm talking about. And it's, look, the mistakes that were made were actually my fault. And another important thing here is you can't just say, hey, guys, it's all my fault. You actually need to mean it and you need to believe. yourself. You need to believe that you failed in the situation to do the right thing or make something happen or make the right decision or make the right call or do the right preparation

or whatever it is that you were supposed to do. You need to do that. You need to believe that. You can't just say it. And you say these mistakes were my fault. Here's why it was my fault. And yeah, I'm sorry that these things happen. I apologize with this happening. And some people see sorry as a sign of weakness. And honestly, there's some, you know, some legal situations you might be in or some negotiations that you might be in where that might be true. But most of the time, especially in a working environment, like inside of a team, sorry is okay. And in fact, an apology is often the first step in moving forward, right?

And it's generally going to be a little bit of a blow to your ego. Now, and that's especially true because you're Mr. Extreme Ownership now or Mrs. Extreme Ownership, guess what? That doesn't mean everyone else is. Not yet. They'll get there, but they're not there yet. So you apologize to someone. It's going to be a big blow to your ego, especially when someone says, you're damn right.

That was your fault. That's going to hurt your ego. You're going to want to lash back out, but you can't. You can't. You got to put your ego in check. And you got to go, hey, I understand. It is my fault. You know why I'm saying it's my fault?

Because I truly believe it was my fault. Because it is. Because it is your fault. So you got to be careful when someone gloats. Don't let that get your head. Well, that's what you have to do. And it's not just for you that you're doing this. It's because the team.

Because the team has to figure out what the problem is. Someone's got to take ownership of the problem. That's you. And then that's how you get the problem solved. And I'll tell you something else. And you might have predicted this. But my sorry and my apology comes with something else. 99% of the time.

And that's a good. Right? So look, hey, I'm sorry that this happened. This is my fault, but I'm glad it happened now. Oh, yeah. Hey, you know what? I'm glad we made this mistake. mistake right now, it's going to set us back a little bit. Good, because now we're not going to make it with a client.

Oh, this happened. This part of the project fell apart. Good. Now we can fix it. We know about it. Oh, this went sideways. I missed it. Good. I won't let it happen again. So throw yourself a little good on the end of your sorry. All right. Yeah, a lot of times those problems or mistakes or whatever they add to that experience, like the experience of being there, you know? where, let's say you go through a path and you make a wrong turn, now you have that experience that that's a wrong turn, that's what that looks like, that's what that feels like, and guess what, we're going to avoid that in the future.

Rather than a bunch of situations where, for example, one, in the future where it's more detrimental, now you don't run into that. You learned. You learned. Exactly. I think I saw a video that said that. Be good.

You learned. All right. Next question. Is there a way to be a straight shooter? Oh, sorry. Is there a way to be straight shooter, Jock, and not be a jerk or piss people off? You know, this is a touchy one. Because everybody has so much respect for the straight shooter, right?

Hey, that guy's a straight shooter, and you want to be a straight shooter. You don't want to be someone that, you don't want to be the opposite. What's the opposite of a straight shooter? That's like a liar. Right. Deceiver. A disdemeanor. receiver, right?

So, of course, we want to be the straight shooter. Let me tell you, it is very difficult to be a straight shooter with everybody. Even when you have a tremendous relationship with somebody, a tremendous relationship with somebody, can you really be a straight shooter with them? A true straight shooter. I've been a true straight shooter with probably three or four people in my life. in my life, I've been a straight shooter with maybe three or four people. That's off the top of my head.

But I'm just saying it's not a big number. It's got to be somebody that you are so in sync with. Man, I'm thinking about that. I don't think that's even possible for me and my situation. To be a straight shooter with people? Yeah, how can you reconcile being a straight shooter now? Consider what that means. But to be a straight shooter with somebody.

At all times. Yeah. You can't really do that. So, so what do we do instead? You got to use the indirect approach. The indirect approach. And I'm talking about this all the time.

And this is a nuance that people, people, people come out on podcast 12 and they say, hey, I heard you say this and I'm going to go, remember that question we got to ask, you know, do you ever get told you're too direct and too intense?

It's like, no, I don't get told that. Right. Because I don't believe in trying to be a straight shooter with everybody. What I believe in is trying to get my message across to people so that it gets absorbed by them. Yeah, man. And the minute you straight shoot somebody, their defenses go up and it becomes problematic.

So some indirect approaches are when you have these discussions with people, when you use conversation to get your point across, you know, hey, I was looking at this and I was wondering what I could do better. Can you help me? Or, you know, what can we do better? You know, you're throwing the we on it. Or, you know, then you say something like, hey, you know, you've got so much going on right now. Do you want me to take anything off your plate?

You want me to take that thing off your plate? That's kind of like a small little detail. Do you want me to handle that? Or, you know, hey, it seems like you're having to micromanage this guy over here. You want me to go straighten that out and run that? Or it seems like this guy's taking up too much of your time. You want me to take that over or take that person over? Or, you know, it's a good one.

Is, hey, can you help me with my team members? I just want to sit down with you and just like have you talk to me about what you see in my team members. And then when you're discussing your team members and other people, even your peers, and what they do good and bad, but what you're really doing is you're just tossing some things their way, some little things their way, so that they understand. And it's kind of like teaching jiu-jitsu, right? When you teach you, when you teach a move, or teaching anything. When you teach a move, you learn it better, right?

if you make somebody teach a move, they're going to learn it better. So when you make someone sit down with you and go through the issues that people are having, it actually makes them self-reflect. But they don't know it. But they reap the results. They reap the results of it.

So that's a crafty one that I've used a bunch. Let's see. Here's a good one. I think I'm letting you down. I don't think I'm doing a good enough job. You know, it's like I think I'm just, Be careful, though. With that one seems like if you,

if you hit the wrong tone with that one, you got to be careful with all these. You got to be careful with all these. You got to be tactful. Yeah, yeah. You can't ask some more direct questions, but when you ask the more direct questions, you've got to be sort of,

you've got to be true, you got to come across as being very truthful in your, in your inquisition. So for instance, hey, what was the strategy that you were thinking about over here? Yeah. Like before this whole thing fell apart,

you don't say that part, But, you know, hey, what were you thinking about when you put this together? Because I don't quite, I don't quite get it. You got to be careful. That's another one. You've got to be sensitive. The tone can come off bad. The tone can come off bad.

What were you thinking? Right? Right. Hey, hey, hey, you got to be soft with you. So it's much better to be indirect in most of these cases. And hopefully you can build relationships with people where you can be more direct or you can get that conversation to be where it needs to be, to what. where you can get the key critical information across,

but it's very, very challenging. Yeah. And again, it's not that challenging. It's not impossible. I did it with everybody all the time. I always had got my point across to people.

Always, you know, and I'll tell you, this is something when I would straight shoot somebody, I would, and this is, if I really needed to straight shoot somebody, I would write them a very lengthy,

the email to say, hey, here's what's going on. Here's what I'm saying. And I would really craft it with a lot of patience. And then I would either do, once I wrote the email, I would either use that. I wouldn't send it, but I'd use it as a guide to myself, like, okay, this is the conversation I'm going to have. Or I'd send it to them for real. Like a DL note. Yeah, like a DL note.

You know, I actually read one of those. I read one of those on, on, on, um, um, um, Number two or something. Number five. I think it was number five. That is one of those things that I did. I said, okay, you know what? I got to help this guy out.

Got to be direct with him. He's making some mistakes. I want him to do better. Here's a little D.L. note for you. Get you squared away. The thing is, this is definitely hard, but it's not impossible. You've got to just have the open mind. You've got to use your tact.

You've got to use your judgment. And you've got to build relationships and have conversations with people. And know what your intention is in the conversation. is in the conversation and just keep slowly moving in that direction. You know what? A tip, and I'm going to say this tip because I like when people do it to me, when they're like correcting me or whatever, is sprinkle in little comments about the stuff that they did right.

Yeah, that's a common practice. Yeah, but when you do that, though, you add in this, you add in, and that's what I like about you. You do this, you know? So if you add in, that's what I like about you, it kind of individualizes that person. Like, I'm the guy who does that, you know, that good part. So it gives them that confidence. So it's kind of like, yeah, tell me more kind of attitude.

And then at the end, throwing like something along the lines of like, yeah, good, thanks. You know, thanks for the time or whatever. And then be like, I got your back. Yeah. Kind of leave. Yeah, there's all come. I mean, we could go over techniques all night long. Those are both good ones.

You know, another one is like, hey, listen, I think you can be a top performer here. I think you're going to, this is if you're talking to someone that's, you know, like a subordinate. I think you could be a top performer here. There's, here's what you're kicking ass at. Yeah. This, this, this and this. Here's this, these two things right here. If we can get these fixed, you're going platinum.

When we get these things fixed. When we get these. You're even more positive. Look at you. Yeah. I'm imagining in the sense of you telling me this in like Jiu Jitsu or something. Yeah. You know?

And, yeah. Like Dean used to say like, when I'd be like, hey, and I'd ask him to say, I'm this position and he'd be like yeah then later on you know i'd text him whatever but hey thanks for for going over this with me he's like yeah bro you know keep it up and you can be like a world champion he'd just say that and i don't know who else he's he probably says that to everybody i don't know he's never said that to me that's because we hate each other but for that moment i'm like hell yeah you know like i hope he corrects me more i hope he tells me how to do this because he obviously just like are you saying you know you could be a top performer here be like yeah tell me what else

What can I do? What can I do? And actually, the point that you're making is a very good point, which is, you know, picture, go into perspective of the other person and what is it going to sound like to them. And that's a smart thing to do. So you're hearing what you would hear if you were them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, indirect people. Be indirect. It's harder.

It's challenging. It takes more time. It takes more patience. And it is way more effective. fact. And we talked about how before, like some people, they'll be like, hey, I'm just a, I tell it how it is. You know, I tell it how it is,

and if you don't like it kind of thing. And, all right, go ahead and do that, but see how that works out for you. You know, see how many people follow you. See how many people want to listen to you. You know, people want to be around you even, you know? I like the indirect approach too. Next question.

Jocko, what is the number one philosophical lesson that you've learned from Jiu-Jitsu? Yeah. So, Jiu-Jitsu emphasizes so much of what I believe that it's tough to narrow down. But I will. But I will throw some things out there that kind of are part of Jiu-Jitsu and are part of what I believe. First of all, what we just talked about, being indirect, and indirect attacks, flanking. That's what you have to do in J-J-J-J-Ti-Tu. You have to set things up. You have to detach.

You have to detach from the chaos and from the emotional. You cannot get emotional on the mat. Attack the flanks. You've got to hit people where they aren't expecting it. You've got to have a plan, but you've got to be ready to adapt. You've got to constantly improve your position. You've got to have fun while you're doing it. You've got to practice being in bad situations.

You've got to make your training as realistic as possible. These are all things. I talk about these in all aspects of combat and in, business and in life. You got to be physically fit so your mind stays sharp. That's true in jujitsu. It's true in combat. It's true in life.

You got to know when to tap. Right? You got to know when to tap. You've got to know when to tap. You've got to know one to give up on a single battle so that you don't lose the whole war. You've got to train for worst case scenarios. You've got to start with that person on your back. Got to start with a person with you in an arm lock.

and training for combat, you've got to train for those worst-case scenarios where you're outnumbered, you've got a bunker position, and they're shooting paintball at you, and you've got downed men, that's what you've got to do, you've got to train for the worst-case scenarios.

And same thing with business. I work with, like, sales groups sometimes, and they'll do role-playing. And I'll say, you know, be the worst customer you can possibly be. So that way, when this person meets a normal human, they know how to knock it out of the park. Here's another one from Jiu-Jitsu.

Basically don't judge a book by its cover, right? Because you don't know if the person that you're about to slap is Jeff Glover. Or is Dean Lister? Or Joel Tudor. Or Joel Tudor. You don't know what's going to happen. So don't judge a book by its cover. Yeah, I mean, Dean, you'd be less apt to slap than you would Jeff Glover.

I guess that's a good point. Dean, you can kind of judge by the cover. Yeah, the cover is pretty evident. But Jeffie or Joel? Yeah. You know, those guys weigh 100. and 50 pounds and you know a surfer guy and a and a whatever Jeff is I don't know what genre of human you put Jeff into but you wouldn't think that he would throw a

dars choke on your face mm-hmm so that's that prioritize and execute in the jiu-jitsu I mean we just talked about it 14 times tonight for combat talk about in business all the time you got to make sure that the initiatives that you're running you don't have 38 initiatives. In Jiu-Jitsu, guess what? You hear this all the time. You're about to get choked. You've got to protect your neck.

Number one, you got to protect your neck. Then you can worry about your leg, and then you can worry about your arm and the hooks and everything else. But you've got to protect the neck. You've got to prioritize. Yeah. You've got to keep things simple. You've got to create. You've got to have an open mind.

You've got to be creative and look for different ways to win and different things to do. You've got to make sure you don't get trapped and interrupts. mentally trapped in a rut this happens to me everybody I think yeah it happens to me but I only know what I can tell you about me and that is I get trapped in ruts with jujitsu

where I get I get stuck in something and I'll just go with one move for a long period of time you gotta be careful that I need to be better about that discipline equals freedom so with jiu jitsu the more disciplined you are in training

the more freedom you have on the mat. So the more you train, the more you work, the more you drill, the more you can move, the more you can escape, the more you can create, the more you can finish. And not to mention the fear that it eliminates. Because like, you know how, like, let's say you're not that discipline, you take two weeks off. A lot of time when you come back from that two weeks,

like you have that added element of nervousness, like, dang, am I going to gas or am I going to get, you know, tapped out in front of every, everybody when, you know, when, you know, maybe there was a higher expectation on me or something like that. Yeah, no, I don't have that. Whatever. Yeah. It's part of it, though, for sure.

But I would say the number one philosophical lesson, and I guess this is a philosophical lesson, is the same thing that I learned from combat. And that's humility. in jujitsu is absolutely one of the most humbling experiences in the world and we've actually I got people now that have started jujitsu because of the podcast and they say oh I just did my first jujitsu class damn that was humbling it is extremely humbling you're going to get beat you're never going to know everything you're always going to be learning that there's other ways to do things and somebody that just started can come up with amazing techniques, and that's humbling.

And there's other martial arts that have better moves that you need to pay attention to, like wrestling has better takedowns, like Samba with the leg locks, and catch wrestling. Some of those things are better moves, and you need to apply those. And guess what? You still need to know how to strike, because it can be hard to take people down. So you need to know how to strike, and you can't be cocky and you can't be, overconfident because the bottom line is in Jiu-Jitsu, you will

get beat. And you will get beat by smaller guys, by weaker guys, by older guys, you're going to get beat. And there's somebody that's better than you. And if you don't like that, or if your ego doesn't like that,

then you've got to find a new game to play. Yeah. Because you need to find a softer game or an easier game because Jiu-Jitsu is honest. Yeah. And you cannot escape that.

And that's as it should be. And it's, of course, this philosophical, this philosophy is something that I definitely carried over to combat and carry over to when I talk to businesses and carry over to life. You can't be overconfident. You're never going to think you know everything.

You have to respect the enemy. That's part of humility. You've got to respect your... If you're not humble, you don't respect your enemy. You don't respect your opponent. You don't respect your competitor. And if you don't,

that's when you're going to get caught. So to me, humility is the most important thing that jiu-jitsu teaches you. Yeah, and it's kind of a... It can be kind of a... Not a trick. Yeah, I'm going to call it a trick.

because, okay, you got to maintain the humility, right? But that humility will be tested if you stick with it. So, and I'll tell you a little quick story about that test being bestowed upon me. It was like a little after I got my purple belt, I was really like, I really hit my stride. I was competing a lot and winning. And you were training with me a lot back then. Yes, that was right at that time when I was training with you. and you were, you know, when I, you know, if, if, there was a, there was a little bit of mentorship going

Yeah, a little bit in. Yeah, that, that was the exact time. Yeah. And, um, and I was like, yeah, and I started to kind of, you know, give into my own height, you know, like, oh, I'm the man. Not outwardly, but on the inside. And, um, and it was fun. Jiu Jitsu man gets cocky on the inside. On the inside, yeah.

Exactly. And here's the thing, a lot of people, that's how, you know, in fact, a little bit of that is good, because you get that confidence, that hunger to even learn more and be better. So I had that, and then Greg, I hadn't enrolled with Greg since. I didn't know him as good, but I knew him, but not as good as I do now. And last time, I want to say the last time I rolled with him, I was a white belt long time ago. And he just would destroy me. So I was like, oh, yeah, hey, you know, congratulations.

You know, you've been winning and stuff like that. I was like, oh, yeah, he's like, all right, yeah, let's roll. So I'm like, all right, let me shit. Yeah, I'm thinking in my mind, yeah, I've been winning here. me go ahead and show you my new stuff. You know, I was going to show Greg in my own mind. Yeah. And Greg took me like I was a white belt again.

Immediately, the kind of where literally nothing I did work and everything he did work. Yeah. It's like he did a step one, step two, step three, tap me out. Step one, step two, set tap me out. And that was the time where I got put from like the top of the mountain in my own head, right to the bottom of the mountain, literally to the bottom, not almost at the bottom, to the bottom of the mountain. Yeah, that's, that's, it's actually, it's actually so good when that happens.

And actually, it's something I, I, occasionally, jiu-jitsu is super humbling, occasionally you get someone that is really, really good and they don't recognize, they don't come up against people all the time that are, they don't come up against people very often that are better than them. Yeah. Most people in the beginning, you have, you have, you, have several years of being beat down. But occasionally you get somebody that's a great wrestler or maybe they were a judo player

or something so they come into the game or they're just super strong or they're just a freak athlete. And so they very quickly, you know, in a matter of six months to a year, all of a sudden they're doing really well. Yeah. Sometimes those people, sometimes those people mentally, they might be good at Jiu-Jitsu, but they don't mentally get it. And they become really bullies.

And that's one of the, it doesn't happen that often, like I said, but it doesn't, doesn't occasionally happen where you get somebody that just is a dominant force, they don't get humbled enough. And they don't, because even if you don't actually get humbled, jiu-jitsu normally in the beginning, you learn like, oh, because one of the things I say to people is, I'm not, you know, because I can tap you, it doesn't mean that I'm a better human than you. It just means I train more jiu-jitsu than you. You know what I mean?

That's all it means. And that means that someone else is training in jih-suees more than me, and they can beat me, and that's just what it is. But sometimes people think that because they can tap somebody out that they're better than them. Yeah. As a human. Yeah, there is a superiority. And that's not a good attitude to have.

That's not what jiu-jitsu should be about. Yeah, and those guys a lot of times, and this is just kind of one way to put it, they don't pay their dues, so to speak. You know how like a normal person. They don't get the humility lesson over and over and over again. They get it like a few times, but then they overcome it quickly. Yeah, and it outweighs that. And it outweighs.

Yeah. So you've got to be careful of that. Yeah. Just be careful at it. If you're a person that's naturally really adept at Jiu-Jitsu, make sure you're not getting, turning into a bully. Yeah. And a lot of times that can block you from learning.

Oh, it definitely blocks you from learning. Oh, it definitely blocks you from learning. Like if you're strong wrestler, like, why would I start learning bottom game? Yeah. If when I'm killing with all this other stuff, I'm going to listen to that. Because there's someone that's a better wrestler than you. Yeah. That's why.

knows the combination because a lot of times certain guys they'll they'll know the combo to beat wrestling without having to do wrestling yeah like some guys they're just like that you know so part of it jiu jitsu okay next question have you ever been so dug in on a solution or an opinion that it felt impossible to admit that you were in fact wrong so i actually almost gave up on this question and because it's been, I learned this lesson a long time ago that, again,

the humility that you get from jiu-jitsu and from combat and from life is that I very seldom dig in on something that I'm not 100% sure of. And which means I don't dig in on a lot because I'm not 100% sure of much, right?

Who can be 100% sure of a lot of things? And when I do do that, it's not that hard for me to realize that I'm wrong, stifle my ego, admit it, and change course. It's not that big of a deal to me. When I, like I said, when I do dig in on a subject or on a decision, it's because I know, like almost to a 100% certainty that I'm right. Otherwise, I'm going to leave myself a little bit of an out.

I'm not going to just dig in on things that I can't be positive about, because why would I? Why would I do that? Now, when I end up being wrong, if I do take a stance on something, it's no big deal. I'm going to use that as an opportunity to show that I'm humble and show that I can admit when I'm wrong. I'm going to take advantage of it. Good. I'm wrong. Good.

And, you know, so I would say just keep your options open, keep an open mind. When you feel yourself or your ego is digging in, just check yourself and admit that you're wrong and move on. And one thing I think that happens. with people is people think that digging in and having a strong 100% opinion makes them appear stronger or it makes their idea appear stronger, but I don't think so. I'm not saying to be wishy-washy on stuff. I'm just saying I have an open mind because I think that's the ultimate strength. That's kind of my opinion. I mean, the last time I came close to digging in, I was advising a company and they were going through some rough, a little bit of a rough patch.

And they started multiple initiatives to try and turn some things around. And one of the initiatives, of all the initiatives, there was a couple that the CEO wanted done immediately. And two of those initiatives, when I looked at them, I thought that they were redundant. And so I said, look, I wouldn't waste, I wouldn't do both these initiatives. Just pick one. I think this one's the better one. just do this one and I think it'll cover the problem.

And I convinced him. And it was pretty easy to convince him because they had limited resources at the time and limited assets. So it wasn't like they had a bunch of stuff to spread around. But he was pretty sad on it, but I convinced him otherwise and he agreed. And within a matter of days,

it started to look like I was wrong. And it started to look like both systems were going to be needed to solve that specific issue. So I didn't like wait. I didn't say, oh, I hope that things go, I said, look, hey, I think I was wrong about this. I think you were right. Let's get

the other initiative going and let's get this problem covered. And that's it. And I'm telling you, he didn't lose respect for me because I said, hey, I'm wrong after a few days of watching what the results are and making an early decision. He actually thought it was awesome. And he's like, hey, I wish everyone could admit

when they were wrong like that. It would make everything around here so much easier. And I said, well, that's why I'm here in the first place, right? Is to help with that. So just be conscious when you dig in, you know, because when you dig in, you're actually, when you dig in, you're taking away your ability to maneuver. Oh, yeah.

You don't want to do that. Good. So, so watch out. Now, should I read this question? Because this is a question for Echo Charles. So that means I get to you. Well, it's part of it's two questions actually, but I put them together because they're pretty close.

Jocko Willink, what brought you and Echo Charles together? Can we get the backstory there? I like the chemistry. Echo Charles, question for you to answer on Jocko podcast. What have you learned from Jocko? And how has your life changed since? This is Echo's first response to a question. Don't screw it up.

Here we go. I'm going to hekel you. Yeah. Yeah, of course, which is funny because that's kind of how what brought us together or part of what brought us together. And I think it's good that I answer this part because you probably remember a lot less of it. So I would say it was 06. I had seen you like the first, you know, whatever, within the first year of joining with Dean in 05. But I didn't know you.

I didn't talk to you, nothing like that. I just had heard of you from Dean. and then in like 06 when we moved over to the boxing club I rolled with you one time I was still a white belt and so that could have been still 05 I don't know and then you know you beat me up and you kind of you were just more like this stoic guy basically I would imagine the same guy that people interpret you to be from the outside

you know kind of like not intense but just real like oh yeah it's real matter of fact you know so you beat me up or whatever and then I was so I Since I had already heard you, you were Dean's Black Belt and all this stuff that I was like, yeah, that's about right. You know, he's good Jiu-Jitsu, whatever, beat me up. But that wasn't really saying much because everyone was beating me up. And then time went on, I didn't see you for a while. And then when I started to kind of get – I was training with Brent.

Remember Brent? Yeah, I was training with him. And then with Elias a little bit. And then you'd come back. I was competing. And then you were just around, for whatever reason. and then yeah I just started training with you. Yeah,

that's when we opened Victory, right? Yes. Because around the same time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, yeah, well, it was funny is that you never came off. Like, once I, like, knew you, like, immediately, you never came off as this super intense person. Like, it was more like you were just sarcastic,

like, you know, like any other of my friends. But you could still always tell that there was something behind the scenes. You know how Deroa Rogen said, like, he's seen you, and he was like, there's something to know what this guy, you know, so I kind of got that same feeling. But you were always just like, oh, yeah, this real matter of fact, but fun, funny, like kind of person or whatever. Like, but when I say matter of fact, I mean like this one tournament,

when it was kind of later where I lost to Sean Roberts, he got me with a go-go plata. You know, when you lose in a jiu-jit-trait, and that was the first time I lost. Since I went advance, you know, because I was doing a lot of Nogi, I had never lost. And Sean Roberts keeps me with a go-go-plata. So instead of you saying, hey, you know, it's okay or nothing like that, you send me a text. You're sitting across the arena.

You're right there. You send me a text. Hey, you got caught with a go-go. That's got a sting. I was like, this is a tournament. It's not practice. You can say that kind of stuff. I was like, ah, whatever.

But I think that, you know, training together and just kind of getting, you know, you kind of had that thing. that you could say that kind of stuff because really it's not that serious. You know? Yeah. I don't think, I don't, there's not many people

who could have conveyed that, though. You know, it came, it, I think it had to come from you. Anyway, so,

yeah, that's kind of how we met, I'd say, and then, kind of after a while, how did the idea of a podcast come up? Because we kind of talked about that a little bit before everything.

I kind of forget the formation, but it was in my mind when I went on Joe Rogans. I think we had talked about, hey, you know, we should do something. I think you said to me, like, hey, you should do it. And so when I went on Joe Rogans and he said, you should do a podcast. I think Tim Ferriss said, hey, you should do a podcast. And then I kind of be you being a techie, sound guy, video guy. I just said, hey, do you know how to make a podcast?

Yeah. That's right. I just said, hey, how do you know how to make a podcast? Yeah, yeah. Because everything to me is just a total caveman, right? Do I need a tape recorder? What do I need? You know, that's what my...

And so then you said, yeah, I know how to do that. I could make that happen. And then you said, it'd be cool instead of just you sitting there talking if you had someone to talk to. And I said, yeah, you're right, that would be cool. And then you'd said, it'd be cool if it was me. Yeah.

Well, my selling point was that strange if it's just you just sitting there. You know, it's more strange. And it's better if you have someone to kind of bounce things off of. Agreed. Especially someone who can kind of be like, oh, I'm just everyday guy.

So I can like ask questions that kind of reiterate the point. Right. To someone who might not get it. Yeah, I had it all thought out, you know. In my mind, I did anyway. But yeah, then, yeah, obviously Joe Rogan was kind of the tipping point when he suggested it.

Yeah. Yeah, no, that was a great insight from Joe Rogan. And I'm glad he did. And I'm glad you did. I'm glad we did make this podcast happen. So to answer the question, what have I learned? And this is interesting because I asked myself this exact same question like a week ago. Because I am literally a different person now in ways that are kind of surprising in a way.

So I say the first thing that's kind of not that surprising, but it's very prevalent is when I see people blame, when I see people blaming other people or blaming me or I feel the compulsion to blame someone else, it stands out like a sore thumb. Almost like if I'm feeling that and it's like almost like if I want to say something to indicate that I'm going to blame somebody or something, it's almost like a red flag. Like I'm not allowed to do that in my own mind. It's like this hard and fast rule.

And like I said, they just stand out like a sore thumb everywhere though, on TV. You know, the guy, not even my conversation. Oh, I see what you're doing right there, you know. So it's like it's like your whole way of life in that regard. is just shifted. Extreme ownership and the awareness of that. Yeah. Seeing it in other people or lack of it in other people.

It definitely stands out like crazy once you start thinking about it. Yeah, and I have the luxury of being around you talking about these things, talking about examples of it every week. Right. So throughout the week, I'm like, I can't even help but notice it, you know? And it's, right, it helps, man, because it applies to everyone. It does. And everything. Like, most relationships are going to apply these principles, you know, if you're involved in them.

So yeah, it's all automatic now. So when it comes to ownership and really blaming myself, if anyone, and focusing on my responsibility in any scenario, whatever, it comes automatic now. That's a huge step. I mean, whether I make the right choices, that's always going to be a work in progress, I think. But as far as that attitude, it's automatic now. That's awesome. And then in regards to, okay, so I've always been into work.

out and so me not feeling like working out is I've always felt like working out so as far as not feeling like it that wasn't really a factor but in a bunch of other things in life it was a factor and so and so you're saying we not feeling like doing X Y or Z yeah like oh I got to I got to go to the post office today and that's on the low end and then or the other one is I don't know I get I don't know, something more important, right? But maybe I'll wait, I'll wait till really the last minute

or, you know, procrastination type stuff. So you're getting into the here and now? Yeah, and not feeling like it, that means absolutely nothing. Something needs to be done, and I don't feel like it. And you know how, like, you have certain ideas already, and then other ideas are introduced, and then those ideas kind of mingle with your existing ideas,

and they formulate this whole new course of action, right? So the not feeling like it is no excuse, that idea came in. And so now I'm like, it morphed into this thing, like me not feeling like it. Who, guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to do it. You know? So it's almost like this personal challenge now, you know? And, man, as far as results go, man, you get everything done.

I get so much stuff done. And it's not probably compared to you. It's nothing. But I get stuff done like so many things done during the day that I never thought that I can do that many things in a day. That's awesome. I was always looking for maybe a rest or a nap or something like that. But now every once in a while I'll be challenging myself to do as many things as I can and be like solid. And on top of that, and you're the one who said this was one time one of the things you were kind of tired.

You were like, you know what, but I like this. I like just grinding and grinding and grinding. And then at the end of the day, when I go to bed where my head just crashes into the bill, I like that. I was like, yeah, that sounds nice. So I want to approach things like that now. And also, I think of all the good things that have been done. Like, great things and just good things or whatever. If these people didn't do it because they didn't feel like it,

like these things wouldn't have got done. So if you got stuff to do, you do it, whether you feel like it or not. That's what I don't have for myself now. And the last thing is, I kind of knew this, but man, it's so clear now that you can get certain messages and information and tips and tactics and stuff from people or the internet or books or whatever. But if you're not ready to accept them, you just won't accept them. Or they'll just go in one ear and out the other. And a lot of time that has to do with who's saying it. So if like, I don't know, your neighbor, some goof off, he's drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette,

he's like, hey, guess what? You know, you should do this. And it's, it can be this great. advice but you can be like I'm not going to listen to you I'm not even to listen to you I'm not even to get past that part the fact that you're the one that saying this already walled me off from what you have to say and that's natural I think but a lot of these things like you're reading these old books that have these messages that you've been saying so it's not new stuff and a lot of stuff I heard that take responsibility for for your actions yeah how old is that yeah that's not new you know if I bust out hey hey you guy on the street take responsibility for reactions. If something comes up, I'm just saying, he'd be like, yeah, that's nothing new. I wouldn't stand out. But for some reason, when you're saying it, it gets you thinking, yeah, let me take responsibility. You know? So that, so yeah, it'd say when it comes to listening to you, this podcast, all the, you know, the answers you have for these questions and any questions I even have, it seems like it comes and I process it way more readily than, you know, memes on Facebook.

Facebook or wherever, you know. That's awesome. Pretty transformed. That's really cool. That's great to hear. And I've, I mean, I've definitely seen a transition in everything you're doing.

I mean, everything you're doing is spot on. Yeah. And that's legit. You know, it's legit to see, it's legit to see someone moving towards their potential as a human. Yeah.

That's awesome to see. And another thing that I came to as not a conclusion, but which is a result, it's not a direct, like you didn't tell me this, but this is what all my existing thoughts mixed with all your input kind of arrived at one of the things, is that it's up to you, it's up to me, what I spend my time doing, totally up to me.

And it's up to me what I fill my head with. So, you know, like I used to have these shows that I love, I love to watch Hawaii 5O and Shark Tank. And that's kind of it. I don't really watch that much TV, but those two. That's maybe, you know, two hours or so, that I could be reading something that's going to help me through the rest of my life or getting better at something

that's going to help my, you know, relationships or career or something like that. And I use that example because that seems pretty, pretty like, not inconsequential because it's only two shows. It's not like I spend 10 hours a day watching TV. it's just do shows. Who cares? No harm in that, right? But that's up to me.

I'm not missing out by missing Hawaii 5-O. I'm not missing out. That's not going to affect my life in any negative way in the future at all. I don't want to affect my life in any way, actually. But if I read something useful, educate myself in, you know, whatever arena that's going to improve my interest or my relationship or something like that, that will. That will help me.

Yeah, no, I've, that's one of the things I've noticed. I'd show up at the studio. And you'd say, oh, I was reading this book today about, you know, how we could get this to sound better. And I read this thing about, you know, you're coming back to me with all this information. And it was something that just transitioned in your brain where you said, you know what? I could be watching TV and wasting my mind or I could be applying myself and learning. Yeah. And that's, that makes a huge difference.

Yeah, one of the things I read, actually. And I read it on, I want to say Wikipedia, this specific thing. But there's this automatic way of thinking. And it's called hyperbolic discounting, right? And all that means is you choose immediate payoffs versus, and I kind of mentioned this before, you choose immediate payoffs versus long-term payoffs, right? And it's there for a reason, survival mechanism and all these ways, but it's old, it exists for an, you know, an environment that's not current.

So if you can basically, A, be aware of that and combat that where don't do the immediate payoff things. So just take what you're about to do, evaluate it. Is this going to help me other than the pleasure that I think? Whether in regards to food, drinking, TV shows, like if you watch reality TV, check yourself on that one, and ask yourself, is this going to help me in the future? and typically the answer for those types of things are going to be no, and then consider an alternative

that you can do, and a lot of the stuff can be pleasurable that will help you in the future. And it's totally up to you. It's totally up to you. Why not make the good choice? Yeah. And the payoff, not only is it bigger,

it lasts longer. Yeah. And the immediate payoff is gone. It's just a memory. Awesome. That's awesome to hear. And actually we got that next comment here is sort of the same vein. It's coming from, and we get a bunch of emails.

But I just thought this one was interesting to hear someone kind of talking about their transition. Here she says, I'm one of many, many people who live their lives as they think they should and end up mid-40s, lost, chubby, and depressed. I definitely don't hero worship you, but I'm truly grateful for your online presence. I now get up at 5 a.m. daily, and I screen grab my phone every morning as the alarm goes off and post that shot with another shot from my walk a few minutes in. I walk for an hour daily, and it started stretching daily for an hour. But this doesn't stop there.

I now have a bunch of friends who are getting up early and going for a walk or going to the gym, getting after it, as you say. We are all noticing an improvement in our lives. So we might not be military or police. We are not planning on becoming jiu-jitsu champions at this stage. We are just people who lost themselves, lost their way, who are finding their way back, in part thanks to you. I credit you at least twice a week and tell people to find you on Twitter.

I had to write here because there's no way I could fit this into 140. characters. And thanks to Tim and Joe for having you on their shows. That's where I found you. Have a great day. So it really cool, you know, really cool to hear that, really great to get that feedback. And, you know, this is what I like about it. Well, first of all, you know, I thank people for spreading the words. And it's really good to hear that feedback. It fires me up to hear the feedback. And when people say, when people say, I motivate them, I'm always like, you motivate me. You know, that it motivates me that you're out there getting out. at 5 a.m. and turning your life around. I think that's awesome. And also what I,

what I liked about this was they pointed out that this isn't just military or police or jihitsu players. It's for pretty much anybody in any station in life and any job, any age, man or woman, any country. As a matter of fact, I was in England and my wife's from England. And when I was in England, I went and saw one of my wife's friends who I'm friends with a husband. and you know here's this woman who's I don't know 40 something years old she's lives in England she's got three kids she's like couldn't be any further detached from me in my life and when I was I was hanging out with her husband in London before we went to their house and he said when we got on the train to go to his house he said listen you got to be ready and I'm like for what

And he says, my wife loves your podcast. And I said, really? And he said, no, no, no, I'm serious. She loves your podcast. And when we have dinner night, she's going to ask you questions all night long. She's been asking me the questions that she was going to ask you. And so I showed up. And seriously, it was great.

She was asking me all these detailed questions about everything. And it was really cool because I realized that this, I mean, like I said, this person doesn't do jujitsu, doesn't, you know, doesn't do anything. that I do. Nothing. And yet, she had all these lessons learned and all these things she had taken away. And it was awesome to see that. And it was interesting, too, because as I was talking to her, it was on a Friday or a Saturday. And as I'm talking to her, she had listened to the latest podcast on the day before.

And so she was saying to me, you know, well, yesterday you said this. And yesterday you said that. And so in her mind, I was talking to her yesterday. I was talking to her yesterday. And that's when I kind of realized that how impactful is what we talked about, where the words, the podcast words are going directly into your brain. And I've had a bunch of people say, you know, oh, when you're talking, oh, you were telling this story.

I wanted you to talk about this story. You know, these are friends of mine. And so I think that's really cool. And I think that's why a lot of people are getting into the game and enjoying it. And you just said it. And I say it all the time. There's nothing new here. And we're not giving out any ground-breaking techniques.

And there's no miracle drug and there's no three-minute exercise that's going to change your life. I'm not selling the self-help reach your potential through this magical mystery. I'm telling people what they already know. And we're talking about things that people know to be right in their own health. Like discipline and hard work and consistency those are the things and we all know those things But to everybody that's that's kind of known these things for a while but they've recently started to get after it. Good on you.

Yeah and get on that path. Yeah, I feel like and stay on that path. That's what I'm talking about. Very cool. I feel like um like just like like how you were saying like we, a lot of this we already knew. We already know about state discipline. We already know about all this stuff or whatever. But coming from you, it helps. And then on top of that, then added an element that I'm kind of really starting to really understand

and feel is that, you know, on Twitter, like, you engage. You know, you, like, if someone asks you questions, it seems like you're engaging a lot more so than what I would expect. If somebody asked me a question, I'm going to answer their question. Yeah. I'm not rude. Which is good. I try it too, for sure. I would imagine you'd be, you know, have way more than me. But kind of as a result of everything, I feel like we're all kind of doing this together, you know?

You know how the guys down in Australia, they'll post all the, you know, a lot of people. Everyone, they're posting their, you know, 4.30 a.m. wake up. Time to do this. Everyone. Yeah. Because that's what you did. Now guess what? We're all doing it.

Yeah. You know, we're all doing it. You're responding to you. You're responding to you. You're responding to them. We're reading questions from them. Yeah. Isn't it kind of weird?

Like, these are other people. Yeah. And through this weird interweb, they're actually asking questions from some unknown part of the world. We're having a conversation, basically. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of delayed. But yeah, that's exactly what's going on.

So, example, I should have just grabbed my phone in, so I forget the guy's name, but he was like, hey, Echo, Sunday workout, Sunday. This was like early this morning, maybe late last night, whatever. Sunday workout, give me one. I need a Sunday workout. So I was like, oh, Okay.

So I gave him the workout. It was basically two rounds, five sets of clean and press, five reps, clean and press five times, and then five burpees. That's one set. Do five sets, 45 seconds, rest in between, rest for two minutes, and then do five more 45 seconds. That's it. I said, use 135 pounds. I only said 135 pounds because that's the exact thing I do after I lift. And that's like, to me, that's the hard.

Lifting is not that hard. but that part's kind of hard to me. The Metcon. The Metcon, yeah. So I'm like, but I don't know, maybe. I don't know if I'm in good shape or not as far as that goes. So I think I say you do it and use that weight. But here's the thing.

If he's smaller. Yeah. I don't know how big he is. We're just talking on Twitter, you know? So, you know, that put the weight didn't really matter. Hopefully he scaled it properly. Boy, he said later on, he was like, dang, that was pain, but I feel great. I was like solid.

He said, hey, but I adjusted the weight. Good for him. So I'm saying, okay, you know, that makes sense. But my two reasons why I'm into that is because I wanted that interaction like, hey, do my workout, you know, and what I'm going to do, and I thought of this earlier this morning, or earlier today, I'm going to send him back to say, you give me a workout. Oh, nice. And I'm going to do it, but make it something at least close to what you do or something you do, and I'll give you an evaluation, you know. So hopefully I can get some variety, and it'll help that interaction. I think that's dope.

Yeah. Like how he actually went and did it. Yeah. I was like, heck yeah, you did that. Some barn in Iowa or some... Yeah, wherever he was. That's awesome. Good deal.

Last question. There must be some aspect of the Tutsi situation that I don't understand. Even if I'm on the losing side of a fight, I still want to go down swinging. I could tell how much this affected Jocko. It would suck to be so close to such an unjust fight and not be able to do anything about it. Yes. it it is hard to look at that situation and really understand it

and it's horrible to look back at it now and know that we didn't do anything about it but what can we do with it how can we apply this to everyday life because I agree with you you got to go down swinging and I'll tell you this

if you if you fight with all You've got, more often than not, you don't go down at all. You win. But you've got to make that attitude part of your everyday life, the extra rep, the extra mile, the extra round, the right choices to make yourself stronger, mentally and physically. Stand and fight. Fight against weakness and against fear. They fight against time and decay, fight back. Go down swinging.

Give every day everything you've got. And when you face a challenge, even something where you don't believe you can win. Maybe it's a situation where you cannot win. But if you can't win, remember this. You have nothing to lose. So stand up and go forward and go out in a belief. lays of glory. Fighting with everything

you've got, every ounce of energy, every beat of sweat and every drop of blood until your last breath. And then, and only then, you can stand down.

You can put down your sword and you can put down your shield and rest. And I think that's all I've got for tonight. so thanks all you troopers out there for tuning in and listening and thanks for remembering you know we started this off tonight with a statement of remembrance of some fallen warriors so thanks for remembering them remembering the past remembering war and the horror and the glory

and the heroes thanks for remembering that and thanks for learning from them Thanks for connecting with us through the interwebs. You guys out there are opening my mind with the books that you're sending me, the articles that you're sending me, the videos you're sending me, the connections you're making. You're making us smarter. So thank you. And, of course, thanks for supporting the podcast, listening, downloading, subscribing, reviewing, writing reviews, get on iTunes and write some reviews if you want. if you feel like it. Yeah.

And then the other forms of support we got. Yeah, if you like the t-shirts and coffee mugs, bumper stickers that we got on Jocko store too, you get some of those. Solid. Also, if you want to add to the conversation when you're not listening to the podcast, Jocko is at Jocko Willink on Twitter.

Oh, Twitter. At Jocco Willink. And I'm at at Echo Charles. And you made the Facebook. too, which has not been utilized as much yet. Right, and I've been slowly checking them. I checked them. We pulled questions from them.

Oh, okay, good, good. Okay, yeah, so Facebook.com slash jaco podcast. And I think slowly we're going to transition to getting the questions from there. Everywhere, probably, really. Good question is a good question. But long questions, I mean, it's hard. Don't take pictures of long questions and post them, because I copy and paste them into a document. All right.

So, yeah, folks out there that took pictures of questions. questions and I Twittered you back and said, hey, write that. Yeah. So. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, there it is. Boom.

Yeah. And if you, uh, if you're interested in the book, Laif Babin and I wrote, Extreme Ownership, it's all these basic principles we talk about all the time. You can get it hardcover Kindle. Or you get an audio book, which the audio book is myself and Laif reading it. So. Or any books that you've covered on any of these podcasts. That's right.

It's on Jocco store.com, by the way. So on the top menu, you click on. that books and it'll show the description and what podcast it was on etc and you can buy them from that awesome so finally and most importantly to everybody out there you sitting there with your headphones on listening thank you thanks for deciding that you are going to hold the line that you're going to fight through the discomfort and the weakness and the pain and you're going to get up and get after it so Until next time, this is Jocko and Echo.

Out.