Jocko Podcast - Jocko Podcast 20: Parenting? Nature VS Nurture? Crossfit? The Jiu Jitsu Grind. Gaining Confidence.

Episode Date: April 27, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNN0dnB6ivY 0:00:00 - Opening 16:50 - Mao Tse Tung, "On Guerrilla Warfare" (translated by Samuel B. Griffeth) 1:01:25 - Internet/Onnit stuff 1:04:02 - Memorable moments in Jiu Jitsu? 1:26:21 - How to learn humility and also gain self confidence. 1:36:53 - Decentralized command in Parenting 1:49:09 - Thoughts on CrossFit 1:58:00 - Tips on indirect communication 2:06:35 - What's more important for success?   Nature or Nurture?Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 20 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Around 8 p.m. on September 21st, 2007, the authorities notified me that I should go for a mind reeducation talk. I found there were some unusual things happening at this time. The secret police, who used to follow me very closely, kept a further distance. I was walking down the street one day, and then, when I turned a corner, about six or seven strangers started walking towards me. I suddenly felt a strong blow to the back of my neck and fell face down on the ground. Someone yanked my hair and a black hood was pulled over my head immediately.

I was brought to a vehicle and was put in it. I couldn't see, but it seemed that I had two benches with a space in the middle. I was put in the space in the middle of the floor. My right cheek was on the ground. All of a sudden a boot was put on my face holding me down. Many hands started searching all over me. My belt was pulled off and used to tie my hands behind my back. At least four people put their feet on me, holding me down.

About 40 minutes later, I was dragged out of the car. My pants were falling down around my knees and I was dragged into a room. No one said anything at all to me until that time. the hood was pulled off my head at this time immediately men began cursing and hitting me one of the men said your date of death has come today brothers let's give him a brutal lesson today beat him to death then four men with electric shock prods began beating my head and all over my body nothing but noise and the beating of my anxious breathing could be heard I was beaten so severely that my whole body began uncontrollably shaking. Don't pretend to do that. I was shattered out by a guy whom I later learned was named Wang. Then a very strong and tall man grabbed my hair and pulled me up off the ground.

Then Wang began beating me on the face terribly. You are not worthy to wear clothes. Pull off all of his clothes. All of my clothes were pulled off and I was. totally naked. Wang yelled again and someone kicked me in the back of my legs and I collapsed to the floor. The big guy continued to pull my hair and forced me to lift my head to see Wang. At this time, I could see that there were five people in the room. Four of the men were holding electric prods and one was holding my belt. You listen, gal,

today your uncles want nothing but to make your life worse than death. While Wang was saying this, the electric shock prods were put on my face and upper body shocking me. Wang then said, come on guys, deliver the second course. Then the electric shock baton was put all over me. And my full body, my heart, lungs, and muscles began jumping under my skin uncontrollably. I was writhing around on the ground in pain trying to crawl away. Wang then shocked me in my genitals. My begging them to stop only returned laughing and more unbelievable torture.

Wang then used the electric shock baton three more times on my genitals while shouting loudly. After a few hours of this, I had no energy to even beg, let alone try to escape. But my mind was still clear. It seems that the torturers themselves were also tired. Before the dawn came, three of them left the room. We will come back later to give him the next course, Wang said. I asked, how can you face the beating of Chinese and use mafia tactics on Chinese taxpayers? You are an object to be beaten.

You know that in your heart better than most. Taxpayers count for nothing in China. Don't talk about this term taxpayers. While he was saying this, someone also entered the room. I recognize the voice to be wangs. Don't talk to him with your mouth. Give him the real thing. Your uncles have repaired 12 courses.

We only finished three last night. Your chief uncle doesn't like to talk. And so following you will see that you will have to eat your own shit and drink your own piss. Don't you talk about torture by the Communist Party yet? Because we will give you a comprehensive lesson now. I am not afraid of you if you continue to write. We can torture you to death without your body being found. In the following hours of torture, I passed out several times because of lack of water and food and heavy sweating.

I was lying down on the cold floor, naked. I felt several times someone come and open my eyes and shine a flashlight into them to see if I was still alive. When I would come to, I smelled the strong odor of stinky urine. My face, nose, and hair were filled with the smell. Obviously, but I don't know when someone urinated on my face and head. This torture continued until around noon of the third day. I don't know where I got the strength to endure, but somehow I struggled to get away from their grasp and began to beat my head on the table. I was shouting the names of my two children and trying to kill myself.

but my attempt did not succeed. I thank Almighty God for this. It was him who rescued me. I truly felt God dragged me back from that state and give me my life. My eyes were full of bleeding, through, though because of my head banging. I fell on the ground.

Immediately, three people sat on my body. One was on my face. They were laughing. They said I used my head. my death to try and scare them. They said they have just seen this too many times. They then continued the torture again until that night. I could not see anything with my eyes anymore.

Every day while I was being held, the experience of eating was unusual. Whenever I was at the point of starving, they would bring up mantle, which was steamed bread, and offer it to me. If I would sing one of the three famous revolutionary communist party songs, I could have some bread. My deepest desire was that I wanted to live until that was no longer possible. My death would be torturous for my wife and children, but at the same time, I didn't want to dirty my soul. But in that environment, human dignity has no strength. if you don't sing these songs you will continue to be starved and they will continue to torture you so I sang

when they use the same tactic though pressuring me to write articles attacking Falun Gong I didn't do it but I compromised by writing my statement saying that the government didn't kidnap me and torture me and that they treated me and my family well I did sign that document during these more than 50 days more horrible evils were committed than I told here. Those evils were not even worthy of any historical records by any human governments. But those records will further enable us to see clearly that how much further the leaders of CCP are willing to go in its evil crime against humanity in order to protect its illegal monopoly power.

Those evils are so dirty and disgusting that I don't want to mention it at this time and perhaps we'll never mention it in the future. Every time when I was tortured, I was always repeatedly threatened that. If I spelled out later what had happened to me, I would be tortured again. But this time I was told, this time it will happen in front of your wife and children. The tall, strong man that pulled my hair, repeated this over and over during the seven days. I was tortured. Your death is sure if you share this with the outside world. This was repeated many times.

These brutal, violent acts are not right. Those that did it themselves knew this clearly in their hearts. So that's a note from a guy named Gao Zichung, who is a Christian lawyer in, China that defended Christians and became an enemy of the Chinese communist state. And again, this is 2007 that this occurred. And the reason I started off with that tonight is because we're going to delve into some material that comes from Mount Saitang, who is, you know, one of the most famous and powerful and communist leaders.

ever and the reason that I got interested in this is if you remember or if you went and read about face by David Hackworth he talks about making all of his subordinates read Mao say tongue's little red book and you know when I heard Hack say to read that I read it many years ago and although that's an interesting read it it actually led me to a better read. Also by Mount Setong that I got more out of. And the version that I got was

originally put out by the Marine Corps. And it analyzed and translated Mount Setong's book Yu Chi Chan which means guerrilla warfare.

And I wanted, the reason I wanted to start off with this shocking tale of torture was because I wanted to make sure that I highlighted Mal's legacy. This is, you know, a guy that's responsible for millions upon millions of deaths from disease and starvation and systematic executions and deaths in these labor camps called reform through labor. So, oh, you're not quite fitting in, cool. We'll work you to death.

and the estimates for the number of people that died as a result of him being in power is between 40 and 80 million. He's at the top of the list. He's above Stalin. He's above Hitler. And the mistreatment of people continues. You know, Gao Zichung, who I just read, who started it off tonight. But, you know, even now, I just...

saw a news story about Ding Kumai, who's the wife of a reverend who in April, this year, this month, stood in front of a bulldozer to stop the state-ordered demolition of a church, and they just pushed her into the ditch and buried her alive. So this is still happening. And so I want to make it perfectly clear that there is massive amounts of evil and depression. wrapped up in Mao Saitong.

Now, what is interesting and this is probably why HACC, in fact, it is why Hackworth read this and had his people read it is because the military

and leadership theories that he espouses, they actually align with my own principles of leadership, which is crazy. And it's shocking because I mean, this guy's literally one of the founders of the Chinese Communist Party. And obviously, I'm a believer in democracy.

And specifically, specifically, I'm a believer in individual freedom of human beings. But like I said, interesting, you'll see that many of the leadership principles that I talk about and that I believe in, Mao utilized them and taught them when he was trying to run military and insurgent operations. And it doesn't surprise me because I know what motivates people and I know how to, I know the principles that work. But what is surprising is that he didn't take these leadership principles and lead a nation like that. so you're going to see that very clearly when we go when we go through this and your part of it's probably it has to do with the the famous quote from lord acton which his power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely so it's either that either he got corrupted

or maybe he never realized that the way you lead in combat is the way you need to lead in life and in business, the way you lead people. Unfortunately, he never realized that. So to start this off, this is an introduction and analysis. This starts off with an introduction and analysis of Mao Cetong and his principles. That was done by a guy named Brigadier General Samuel B. Griffith. United States Marine Corps. And to put a little background on General Griffith, he served as the executive officer and later commander of the first Marine Raiders battalion on Guadalcanal.

He served as the executive officer of the first Raider regiment in operations on New Georgia. He received the Navy Cross, which is only second to the Medal of Honor on Guadalcanal. September 1942 for extreme heroism and courageous. just devotion to duty during the fighting near the Mantanau River. During this action, Griffith suffered wounds for which he was awarded the Purple Heart. For his exploits in July in New Georgia, he was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross. So this guy's highly decorated, and here's the bonus here.

He spoke Chinese, and he was stationed in China several times. So this is the guy that actually translated this book, from Chinese to English. So I don't think you could possibly come up with a better person to base this translation off of than General Griffith. Pretty awesome to have that kind of person and still be able to look at his work. So let's get into this book here. Mao se Tong on guerrilla warfare, translated by Samuel B. Griffith. Mao say tongue, the man who was to Don the Man Who Was to Don the Man of Lenin was born in Hunan province in central China in 1893.

His father, an industrious farmer, had managed to acquire several acres, and with this land, the status of a middle peasant. He was a strict disciplinarian, and Mao's youth was not a happy one. The boy was in constant conflict with his father, but found an ally in his mother, whose indirect tactics, as he once described her methods of coping with her husband, appealed to him. So we already get a little flag here.

You know, here was this guy, and he looked at the way his mom dealt with his dad, and she used these indirect tactics. I talk about that all the time. And you're going to see that he uses these indirect tactics in a military way as well. Shortly after grad... Back to the book.

Shortly after graduating from normal school in 1917, Mao accepted a position as assistant in the Peking University Library. Here, he associated himself with Marxist study groups. Here, he discovered Lenin, read his essays, poured over Trotsky's explosive speeches, and began to study Marx and Engels. By 1920, Mao was a convinced communist and a man who had discovered his mission. to create a new China according to the doctrine of Marx and Lenin.

When the CCP was organized in Shanghai in 1921, Mao joined. So that's sort of where it begins. And now skipping through some of the evolution and getting right into strategy, tactics and logistics in revolutionary war. Here's one of his quotes. the first law of war is to preserve ourselves and destroy the enemy.

Very simple. You know, I talk about simplicity all the time. We wrote about it in the book. Is there any more simple principle to wage war other than the first law of wars to preserve ourselves and destroy the enemy? Mao has never claimed that guerrilla action alone is decisive in a struggle for political control of the state. but only that it is a possible, natural, and necessary development in an agrarian-based revolutionary war. So he doesn't think it can do everything, but he knows it pays a very critical part.

Revolutions rarely compromise. Compromises are made only to further the strategic design. I'll read that again. Compromises are made only to further the strategic design. Negotiation then is undertaken for the dual purpose of gaining time to but your supposition and to wear down, frustrate, and harass an opponent. So this is, you know, again, we've talked about this on the last podcast. You know, it's not about being right.

You make those compromises because you're trying to win the war, not the battle. Intelligence is the decisive factor in planning guerrilla operations. Where is the enemy? In what strength? What does he propose to do? What is the state of his equipment, his supply, his morale. Are his leaders intelligent, bold, and imaginative, or stupid? Are his troops tough, efficient, and well-disciplined, or poorly trained and soft? Gorillas expect the

members of their intelligence service to provide the answers to these and dozens of more detailed questions. Guerrilla intelligence nets are tightly organized and pervasive. In a guerrilla area, every person without exception must be considered an age. Old men and women, boys driving ox carts, girls tending goats, farm laborers, storekeepers, school teachers, priests, boatmen, scavengers. So when you're dealing with a guerrilla situation, everybody's an intelligence gatherer. And that's how you have to treat them all. As a corollary, guerrillas deny all information of themselves to their enemy, who is enveloped in an impenetrable fog. This is a characteristic feature of all guerrilla wars.

The enemy stands on a lighted stage. From the darkness around him, thousands of unseen eyes intently study his every move, his every gesture. When he strikes out, he hits air. His antagonists are insubstantial, as intangible as fleeting shadows in the moonlight. That's a great, great way of looking at it.

Back to the book, because of superior information, guerrillas always engage under conditions of their own choosing. Because of superior knowledge of terrain, they're able to use their advantage and the enemy's discomfiture. Gorillas fight only when the chances of victory are weighed heavily in their favor. What a great tactic. Only fight when chances of victory are weighed heavily in their favor. If the tide of battle unexpectedly flows against them, they withdraw. Hmm. They rely only on imaginative leadership, distraction, surprise, and mobility to create victorious

situation before the battle is joined. This is all stuff to think about in everything that you do. Why are you going into a battle if you have not prepared and set the situation up where you're going to be victorious? If you start losing, don't stand there and take a beating. Just walk away, fade away. The enemy is deceived and again deceived. Attacks are sudden, sharp, vicious, and of short duration.

Many are harassing in nature. Others are designed to dislocate the enemy's plans and to agitate and confuse his commanders. The mind of the enemy and the will of his leaders is a target of far more importance than the body. of his troops. So this is an attack on the will of the leaders. And how do you do that? You confuse him. You harass him.

Mao once remarked, not entirely false, that guerrillas must be experts at running away since they do it so often. They avoid static dispositions. Their effort is always to keep the situation as fluid as possible to strike where and when the enemy least expects them. Only in this way can they retain the initiative and so be assured of freedom of action. And this is exactly, you know, this is what Hackworth wanted to do in Vietnam. He wanted to fight the guerrillas.

He calls him Gs in the book. He wanted to fight the G like a G. He wanted to fight the gorillas like gorillas. And that was what upset him so bad as we kept doing these big conventional operations. Well, you do a big conventional operation. The enemy disappears. They leave behind some booby traps for you. They take some sniper shots.

They hit you with some indirect fire. You take casualties. They don't because they disappeared. Guerrilla operations conducted over a wide region are necessarily decentralized. Each regional commander must be familiar with the local conditions and take advantage of local opportunities. The same applies to commands in subordinate districts. This decentralization is to some extent, forced upon the guerrillas because they lack a well-developed system of technical communications.

But at the same time, decentralization for normal operations has many advantages, particularly if local leaders are ingenious and bold. One of the laws of combat that Laif and I write about in the book, right? Decentralized command. You've got to let your subordinate leaders lead. You have to do it. You have to let people know what the strategy is and let them go execute. And what's so bizarre about this is not the way a communist government runs.

They control everything. They try and control everything. Nothing. Everything is centralized. Everything is centralized. And that's why it doesn't work. The enemy, back to the book, the enemy's rear is the guerrillas front. They themselves have no rear.

Their logistical problems are solved in a direct and elementary fashion. The enemy is the principal source of, weapons, equipment, and ammunition. Such the guerrilla says. They don't have to worry about logistics. They don't have to worry about supply. They're going to get it from their enemy. Mao once said,

we have a claim on the output of the arsenals of London as well as of Hang Yang. And what is more, it is to be delivered to us by the enemy's own transport corps. this is the sober truth, not a joke. So they have, where do they get their weapons from? Their enemy.

And their enemy just delivers them to them. It is interesting to examine Mao's strategic and tactical theories in the light of his principle, unity of opposites. Okay, so Mao had this principle, unity of opposites. You may have,

this might seem a little bit familiar if you read the book, if you read our book, the dichotomy of leadership, right? There are opposites. So here's Mao's principle called unity of opposites. This seems, back to the book, this seems to be an adaptation to military action of the ancient Chinese philosophical concept of yin yang. briefly, the yin and yang are elemental and pervasive. Of opposite polarities, they represent male and female, dark and light, cold and heat, recession and aggression. Their reciprocal interaction is endless. So, again, you know, people have said, hey, now I know a new word, dichotomy. That's what this is.

It's dichotomy. It's opposing forces. And now this just gets even more aligned. An important postulate of the Yin Yang theory is that concealed within strength, there is weakness. And within weakness, strength. It is a weakness of guerrillas that they operate in small groups that can be wiped out in a matter of minutes. But because they do operate in small groups, they can move rapid, and secretly into the vulnerable rear of the enemy.

In conventional tactics, dispersion of forces invites destruction. In guerrilla war, this very tactic is desirable both to confuse the enemy and to preserve the illusion that the guerrillas are ubiquitous. It is often a disadvantage not to have heavy infantry and heavy infantry weapons available. but the very fact of having to transport them has until recently tied conventional columns to roads and well-used tracks. The gorilla travels light and travels fast.

He turns the hazard of terrain into his advantage and makes an ally of tropical rains, heavy snow, intense heat and freezing cold. Long night marches are difficult and dangerous, but the darkness shields his approach to an unsuspecting enemy. in every apparent disadvantage, some advantage is to be found. In other words, good. The converse is equally true.

In each apparent advantage lie the seeds of disadvantage. The yin is not holy yin, nor the yang, holy yang. It is only the wise general, said the ancient Chinese military philosopher Sun Tzu, who is able to recognize this fact and turn it to a good account. Guerrilla tactical doctrine may be summarized in four Chinese characters, which mean uproar in the east, strike in the west. Here we find expressed the all-important principles of distraction on the one hand and concentration on the other, to fix the enemy's attention

and to strike where and when he leased in. anticipates the blow. Gorillas are masters of the arts of simulation and dissimulation. They create pretences and simultaneously disguise or conceal their true semblance. Their tactical concepts, dynamic and flexible, are not cut to any particular pattern. But Mao's first law of war to preserve oneself and destroy the enemy is always governing. Yeah, it's just amazing the amount of similarities. guess at some point in my life I'm going to stop being amazed on the fact that the basic principles

of war and the basic principles of life they've been around for thousands and thousands of years and for whatever reason we just have to relearn them you know I I wrote the dichotomy of leadership or fought the dichotomy of leadership I didn't think about ying and yang I should have if I paid more attention yeah well in a way you did think of yin and yang you just didn't call it Ian and Yang. But I'm saying that didn't spark my thoughts. It's a lesson that I learned. It wasn't taught to me.

Right. Okay. Yes. Which is sad. I could have, like you've been saying, if I had read more and fought more, maybe I'd have figured it out earlier. Going on back to the book. At the present time, much attention is being devoted to the development of gadgetry. So he goes, and this again, this is still General Griffith that's talking.

And he's saying something that we hear all the time when I was in the military all the time. You hear that, you know, we're going to get this new technology and that's going to change everything. And technology is great, but it's not the key component of war. And he says this, I do not mean to suggest that proper weapons and equipment will not play an important part in anti-Garilla operations. for of course they will. Constant efforts should be made to improve communication, food, medical, and surgical packs. Weapons and ammunition must be drastically reduced in weight. There seems to be no technical reason why a sturdy, light, accurate, automatic rifle weighing a maximum of four to five pounds cannot be developed.

And the search for new and effective weapons must continue. But we must realize that flamethrower-like guns and bullets are only the search. a very small part of the answer to a challenging and complex problem. The tactics of guerrillas must be used against the guerrillas themselves. Again, this is exactly what Hackworth gave up his career in the army over.

This is how he wanted to fight and people were not listening to him. They must be constantly harried and constantly attacked. Every effort must be made to induce defections and take prisoners. The best source of information of the enemy

is men who know the enemy situation. Imaginative, intelligent, and bold leadership. Now again, this is General Griffith talking about what it takes to be to guerrilla. Imaginative, intelligent, and bold leadership is absolutely essential. Commanders and leaders at every echelon must be selected with these specific qualities

in mind. You know, people don't think that. This is the Marine Corps. He's a Marine Corps general. His number one characteristic is imagination. That's his number one characteristic. Officers and NCOs who are more than competent under normal conditions will frequently be hopelessly ineffective when confronted with the dynamic and totally different

situations characteristics of guerrilla warfare. Who would have thought? that the Marine Corps general says that the most important, you know, he's not talking about bravery. He's not talking about anything physical. He's talking about imagination and intelligence and leadership. That's what wins. Okay, now we're going to get to the actual words from Mao Zetong.

And his, again, his section in this book is called very simply guerrilla warfare. And let's hear what he has to say about leadership. All guerrilla units must have political and military leadership. This is true regardless of the source or size of such units. Such units may originate locally in the masses of the people. They may be formed from a mixture of regular troops with groups of people. or they may consist of regular army units intact.

And mere quantity does not affect this matter. Such units may consist of a squad of a few men, a battalion of several hundred men, or a regiment of several thousand men. All these must have leaders who are unyielding in their policies, resolute, loyal, sincere, and robust. These men must be well-educated in revolutionary technique, self-confident, able to establish severe discipline, and able to cope with counter-propaganda.

In short, these leaders must be models for the people. As the war progresses, such leaders will gradually overcome the lack of discipline, which at first prevails. They will establish discipline in their forces, strengthening them, and increasing their combat efficiency. Thus, eventual victory will be attained. unorganized guerrilla warfare cannot contribute to victory. So clearly, once again, leadership is the key component.

And he goes into a little bit more of that. But first, Mao is talking about this. What is the basic guerrilla strategy? Gorilla strategy must be based primarily on alertness, mobility, and attack. It must be adjusted to the enemy situation. the terrain, the existing lines of communications, the relative strengths, the weather, and the situation of the people. You've got to have total adaptability, right? Total adaptability. In guerrilla warfare, select the tactic of seeming to come from the east and attacking

from the west. Avoid the solid. Attack the hollow. Attack, withdraw. Deliver a lightning blow. Seek a lightning decision. When guerrillas engage in a stronger enemy, they withdraw when he advances, harass him when he stops, strike him when he's weary, pursue him when he withdraws. In guerrilla strategy, the enemy's rear, flanks, and other vulnerable spots are his vital points, and there he must be harassed, attacked, dispersed, exhausted, and annihilated. Only in this way can guerrillas carry out their mission of independent guerrilla action and coordination with the effort of the regular armies. But in spite of the most complete preparation, There can be no victory if mistakes are made in the matter of command.

Very obvious now. We're seeing what guerrilla warfare is. If you're not familiar with it, it's very obvious what it is. And it's very similar to Jiu-Jitsu. You're setting people up. You're not going against their strengths. You're letting people move. And it's what we talk about all in here when we talk about dealing with other human

beings. Don't go head to head with them on that point that they're dug in. on, you're not going to, all you're going to do is create adversity. You're going to get a fight. That's what you're going to get. And you don't want to fight. The other thing that's interesting about this is I start to see slivers into the psychology of Mao, where he says here, there can be no victory if mistakes are made in the matter of command. You can see where that starts to show a micromanager. And really, if you look at a communist government, that's just a giant micromanagement of trying to control everything that you,

can. So you start seeing shades of that, that psychology of the micromanager. Continuing, back to the book, the strategy of guerrilla warfare is manifestly unlike that employed in orthodox operations as the basic tactic of the former is constant activity and movement. There is in guerrilla warfare no such thing as a decisive battle. There's nothing comparable to the fixed passive defense that characterizes orthodox war. In guerrilla warfare, transformation of a moving situation into a positional defensive situation never arises. I'm going to read that again.

In guerrilla warfare, the transformation of a moving situation into positional defensive situation never arises. So if you're on the move and you're attacking the enemy and all of a sudden they start in the upper hand you don't dig in you disappear you go away now we start talking again that this is I started saying that I start seeing the slivers of psychology of now that might turn him into a micromanager but the guy had to run this war and he knew there was only one way to do it and that's using the basic principles of combat leadership and here he talks about it there are differences also in the matter of leadership and command

In guerrilla warfare, small units acting independently play the principal role. And there must be no excessive interference with their activities. So here's Mao, the guy that tried to control me, that led communism, which tries to control everything for the state. And he's saying that there must be no excessive interference with their activities. Individual freedom. Who would have thought that Mao is a proponent of individual? freedom.

In Orthodox warfare, particularly in a moving situation, a certain degree of initiative is accorded to subordinates, but in principle, command is centralized. So, you know, he's talking about conventional war, and he's talking about how command is centralized. This is done because small units and all supporting arms in all district must coordinate to the highest degree, which is actually not true. It's possible to, and there's no doubt that decentralized command, even in a big conventional war is infinitely better

than centralized command. In the case of guerrilla warfare, this is not only undesirable but impossible. Only adjacent guerrilla units can coordinate their activities to any degree, so we can only coordinate if I'm right next to you. Strategically, their activities can be

roughly correlated with those of the regular forces, and tactically, they must cooperate with adjacent units of the regular army. But there are no strictures on the extent of guerrilla activity, nor is it primarily characterized by the quality of cooperation of many units. It's what you do on your own. It's what each individual leader does with his little team.

That's decentralized command. And by the way, that's free market. You know, that's capitalism. And it's unfortunate that Mao knew this. for guerrilla warfare, but he couldn't make the connection. Or like I said, maybe he did, but he just grew corrupt with power. When we discuss the terms front and rear, it must be remembered that while guerrillas do have bases,

their primary field of activity is in the enemy's rear areas. They themselves have no rear. That's the equivalent of in Jiu-Jitsu. You don't give up your back. Well, in the military, you don't want somebody to, to be behind you. Where do these guerrillas come from? Here's Mao.

There are those who say, I am a farmer, or I am a student. I can discuss literature, but not military arts. This is incorrect. There is no profound difference between the farmer and the soldier. You must have courage. You simply leave your farms and become soldiers. That you are farmers is of no difference. and if you have an education, that is so much the better.

When you take arms in your hand, you become soldiers. When you are organized, you become military units. Guerrilla hostilities are the University of War, and after you have fought several times valiantly and aggressively, you may become a leader of troops. Just got to get out there on the battlefield, and you'll learn. I found this interesting. In spite of inescapable differences in the fundamental types of gorilla bands,

it is possible to unite them to form a vast sea of guerrillas. The ancient said, Tai Shan is a great mountain because it does not scorn the merest handful of dirt. The rivers and seas are deep because they absorb the waters of small streams. attention paid to the enlistment and organization of gorillas of every type and form, every source will increase the potentialities of guerrillas in action. So they're going to take everybody. And it's important to take everybody.

Everybody that shows up is getting in the game. Again, this is a point that is so bizarre to hear from Mao. Here he goes. the people must be inspired to cooperate voluntarily. We must not force them. For if we do, it will be ineffectual. This is extremely important. Mao, I wish you would have read your own book.

I wish you would have read your own book. The people must be inspired to cooperate voluntarily. We must not force. force them for if we do it will be ineffectual. This is something that I talk about all the time. Just giving people orders does not work. You need to lead them. You need to inspire them.

You need to get them to do things because they want to do them. Even Mao knew that. Unfortunately, he didn't apply it to his nation. Getting into the officers a little bit, the leadership. Since each guerrilla group fights in a protracted war, its officers must be brave and positive men whose entire loyalty is dedicated to the cause of emancipation of the people. An officer should have the following qualities, great powers of endurance that in spite of

any hardship he sets an example to his men and is a model for them. He must be able to mix easily with the people. His spirit and that of the men must be won in strengthening the policy of resistance to the Japanese. If he wishes to gain victories, he must study tactics. A guerrilla group with officers of this caliber would be unbeatable. Again, a massive focus on the leadership, setting an example, leading from the front, and also being able to communicate with people, being able to get down there with the troops

and have them relate to you. Mao knew this was important. and a little bit about the troopers here. A soldier who habitually breaks regulations must be dismissed from the army. Vagabonds and vicious people must not be accepted for service. The opium habit must be forbidden, and a soldier who cannot break himself of the habit should be dismissed. Victory in guerrilla war is conditioned upon keeping the membership pure and clean.

you got to have good troopers the idea must be an ever present conviction and if it is forgotten we may succumb to the temptations of the enemy or be overcome with discouragements and here we talk about this is commander's intent this is understand why you're doing what you're doing this is task and purpose

this is a whole bunch of things wrapped up and this is how Mao says it you know I say people got to understand why they're doing what they're doing and Mao knew the same thing. Here's what he said. In a war of long duration, those whose conviction that the people must be emancipated is not deep are likely to become shaken in their faith or actually revolt. Without the general education that enables everyone to understand our goal. If anyone's sleeping right now, wake up and listen to this. Without the general education that enables everyone to understand our

goal. The soldiers fight without conviction and lose their determination. Your people, if you're in a leadership position, have got to understand why they're doing what they're doing. They have to. Or they fight without conviction and lose their determination. Again, this is just, it's unbelievable that Mao had this vision and didn't apply it. to everything. Listen to what he says about discipline.

A revolutionary army must have discipline that is established on a limited democratic basis. In all armies, obedience of the subordinates to their superiors must be exacted. This is true in the case of guerrilla discipline, but the basis for guerrilla discipline must be the individual conscience. With guerrillas, a discipline of compulsion, is ineffective. A discipline of compulsion is ineffective. So if I'm yelling at you and I'm making you do stiff,

if I just force you to do things, I force discipline on you, that is ineffective. Thank you, Mal. Imposed discipline. Versus self-discipline. Versus self-discipline. Yes, this is a familiar term, right?

In any revolutionary army, there is unity of purpose as far as both officers and men are concerned. And therefore, within such an army, discipline is self-imposed. Although discipline in guerrilla ranks is not as severe as in the ranks of Orthodox forces, the necessity for discipline exists. This must be self-imposed. Because only when it is, is the soldier able to understand completely why he fights and why he must obey.

this type of discipline becomes a tower of strength within the army and it is the only type that can truly harmonize the relationship that exists between officers and soldiers it's unbelievable it's unbelievable this is this is completely true and it's true across the board in any organization that what when you get this when everyone understands why they're doing it that becomes the strength and people discipline themselves because they understand why and he says that that type of discipline i have to read this again this type of discipline becomes a tower of strength within the army and it is the only type that can truly harmonize the relationship that exists between officers and soldiers. And he goes on to say this, in any system where discipline is externally

imposed, the relationship that exists between officer and man is characterized by indifference of the one to the other. The idea that officers can physically beat or severely tongue lash their men is a futile one and is not in accord with the conception of self-imposed discipline. discipline of the feudal type will destroy internal unity and fighting strength. A discipline self-imposed is the primary characteristic of a democratic system in the army. Unbelievable that he wrote these words and ran his nation the way he did. It's unbelievable. As a matter of fact, I hope some revolutionaries over there are listening to me and saying,

you know what? I think we missed the mark a little bit. Mao didn't mean that. Mao didn't want us to beat and torture people to get them in line. I could go back against them with Mao's own words. Let's go toe to toe, get some freedom. Further, in such an army, the mode of living of the officers and soldiers must not differ too much. And this is particularly true in the case of guerrilla troops.

officers should live under the same conditions as their men, for that is the only way in which they can gain from their men the admiration and confidence so vital in war. The same thing we heard from every group. We heard that from Patton. So Patton and Mao were on the same page. It is incorrect to hold to a theory of equality in all things, but there must be equality of existence

in accepting the hardships and dangers of war. Thus, we may attain to the unification of the officer and soldier group, a unity both horizontal within the group itself and vertical. That is from the lower to the higher echelons. It is only when such unity is present that units can be said to be powerful combat factors. Back to some tactical notes. Speed is essential.

The movements of guerrilla troops must be secret and of supernatural rapidity. The enemy must be taken. unaware and the action entered speedily. There can be no procrastination in the execution of plans. You got to get it done here and now. The enemy is much stronger than we are. And it is true that we can hinder, distract, disperse, and destroy him only if we disperse our

own forces. Although guerrilla warfare is the warfare of such dispersed units, it is sometimes desirable to concentrate in order to destroy an enemy. Thus, the principle of concentration of force against a relatively weaker enemy is applicable to guerrilla warfare. A little bit of prioritizing, execute. And this right here is where we're going to close it out. Again, going back to leadership.

No military leader is endowed by heaven with an ability to seize the initiative. It is the intelligent leader who does so after a careful study and estimate of the situation and arrangement of the military and political factors involved. When a guerrilla unit, through either a poor estimate on the part of its leader or pressure from the enemy, is forced into a passive position. Its first duty is to extricate itself. No method can be prescribed for this as the method to be employed will, in every case, depend on the situation.

one can, if necessary, run away. But there are times when the situation seems hopeless and in reality is not so at all. It is at such times when the good leader recognizes and seizes the moment when he can attain and regain the lost initiative. Let us revert to alertness. To conduct one's troops with alertness

is essential of guerrilla command. leaders must realize that to operate alertly is the most important factor in gaining the initiative and vital in its effect on the relative situation that exists between our forces and those of the enemy guerrilla commanders must adjust their operations to the enemy situation to the terrain and to prevailing local conditions leaders must be alert to sense changes in those factors and make necessary modifications and troop dispositions to accord with them so what are we talking about here we're talking about you've got to have the ability to detach he's calling it be alert the leader must be like a fisherman who with his nets is able to both

cast them and pull to pull and to pull them out in awareness of the depth of the water the strength of the current or the presence of any obstructions that may foul them as the fisherman controls his nets through the lead ropes so the guerrilla leader maintains contact with and control over his units. As the fishermen must change position, so must the guerrilla commander. Dispersion, concentration, constant change of position. It is in these ways that guerrillas employ their strength. And so you'll notice, again, what he's talking about is that the leader has to be able to detach and be alert of these things that are happening. And also, you'll notice that throughout this, he puts total responsibility on the leader. If the leader does well, the troops will do

well. If the leader fails, they all fail. Talking about extreme ownership, this communist. So, I thought that's a great eye into another leader that, you know, he led troops in combat. And like I said throughout that section,

he just didn't realize that that is not just leadership for a guerrilla unit. He thought that it was another way with different situations, but it's not. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Welcome to the show. Thank you.

You know, and I think it's also good to, for me, diving into this other book here, you don't know where you're going to gain knowledge from or confirm knowledge. Yeah. Is it going to be from,

You know one of the most murderous communist dictators of all time. Yes, I'm getting some knowledge from them. I'm confirming knowledge and that's pretty cool And it also proves once again Once again That leading people is leading people Whether you're doing it in combat whether you're doing a business whether you're doing it in a team Leadership the leadership principles that work with humans work with all humans and all situations are there nuances, yes. Do you have to make adjustments?

Yes, that's actually what we just talked about. That's part of it is being alert enough or detached enough that you can sense those things and you can make those adjustments on the fly. But the basic principles, they don't change and they haven't changed for thousands of years. So yeah, let's get to some internet questions. Sure. How's that? Sounds good to me.

But before that, internet related items other than the questions are the fact that we're sponsored by on it dot com boom and um that's where we get our supplements including but not limited to alpha brain which helps you think better and memory uh your memory and stuff it's good and i'll tell you they just release something they release something called mc t oil and if you're if you're a type of person that's firing up the uh ketogenic diet and you're going low carb like i do then you can try the stuff out. I've been putting it in directly into heavy whipping cream.

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Give that stuff a shout. Get yourself some krill oil on top of it. Yeah, keep your joints intact. Even if you're young, I think you should have krill oil. If you're training? Yeah. Yeah. If you're listening to this podcast and you're getting after it,

you might eat some krill oil. That's the deal. Yeah, onit.com slash jaco get 10% off. Because retail for paying 100%. I'm not saying that's bad. I'm not saying that, but 10% off, let's face it. That's 10% off. Yeah, on it.com slash jaco.

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yeah it's true awesome let's answer some questions from the people Cool. All right. First question. Jocko and Echo.

Jiu-Jitsu is a long, repetitive grind. That said, there are occasional highlights. AHA moments. Submissions you're proud of, your personal legends, quote unquote, or maybe key embarrassments. What are some of those for each of you? So what is an aha moment? That's when you learn something really important, in my opinion.

Right. Now, the first part of this word says BJJ is a lot. long repetitive grind? No, I don't think so. I agree. I disagree. I disagree with that, yes. To me, BGJ is a fun,

exciting road of enlightenment. That's what you do you. Oh yeah, there's some rough days on the mats. You'll get grinded. No doubt about that. A couple for me,

well, one of them for sure. I've told the story before about how I started training jiu-jitsu. Seel team. master chief guy named Steve Bailey, awesome guy, was a fighter, fought Muay Thai, and he was training with the graces in the early 90s, late 80s. He was training up in the garage in Torrance, and so he knew Jiu-Jitsu, and he asked a bunch of us if we wanted to train. A couple of us said yes, he choked us out, he armed locked us, I was amazed, and I thought that that was all of

Jiu-Sit-to, and he was like literally a white belt, but 1990 or whatever pre-UFC, it was a big deal. So anyways, to tell this story quickly, one of the guys that was with me in that initial training, was a guy named Jeff Higgs. Jeffrey Higgs was a seal buddy of mine. I went through seal training with him, awesome guy. And we both were kind of training together at that time. We trained for like four or five months, tops.

And then we weren't in the same platoon. We came back. And Higgs actually started training with Fabio Santos. all the time and he got out of the Navy just to train Jiu-Jitsu and I was still in the SEAL teams going on deployment blah blah blah

so one day he comes over to my house he had just gotten his purple belt and I was a white belt and he goes hey you want to train and I said yeah because I mean I thought you know I know the stuff that he knows because I learned it three years ago

or four years ago or whatever it was yeah let's do it so we went across the street into the grass and just he just choked me I mean just destroyed me right brand new purple belt showing off his skills on my neck eager to do it eager to show off the skills

and he's actually he's an awesome guy super humble and he was actually the you know he was doing me a huge favor you know showing me that hey you don't know anything and so that was a that was an aha moment I don't know anything so that was a

that was a good aha moment for me yeah mine was way more uh it was a lot shorter so me and um me and cake nuts navy seal one of my best friends we went um down to remember when dean had that spot yeah it was like a half a spot yep yeah so that's where i first drew this was like maybe a month in and i knew i went in knowing what mount and guard side mount rear naked joke i knew that i didn't know how to really function in any of those positions, but I knew what they were. And I knew how to be in them and stuff.

So that was it. I thought it was a pretty solid athlete. I was like 225 solid. Was this your first time training with Dean? Yeah, this is my first time actually rolling with Dean. Oh, okay. But he was the teacher, you know, it was like a small group of us. And so I was like, oh, shoot.

You know, Dean, that was one in his height when he was coming off his ADCC win. He had a super fight that year against John. Josh. Yeah. So he was the man, you know. So I was like, oh, I'm going to roll with Dean. But so I maybe outweighed him by, you know, I don't know, five pounds, whatever. But I was like, hey, what if I get Dean?

That would be so awkward, you know, like I got him. And, you know, because, you know, maybe I'll spazz and catch a submission. I don't know. You know, it's possible, right? So it was me and cake nuts. And Dean was like, yeah, I'll roll with you guys, you know, welcome to the academy or whatever. and so I'm like alright

so I roll and write when he you know how you kind of we didn't start standing up he kind of sat down

in front of me and you just start to slowly roll he just he grabbed me and now it's called when you lock up with someone

right right you understand that that's what it's called but when we locked up when he grabbed me that's the moment

I realized oh yeah that that probability of me catching him is literally at this point zero literally

just right when he grabbed me I was like oh man just the way he was and it just You didn't feel like you could just do anything.

And then, of course, he beat me up. And when cake nuts rolled with him, remember that thing? And he did it in ADCC, I think he got just solo. When you get into a certain position, he gets kind of under you, and then he picks you up and stands up and walks around with you. So he did that to cake nuts. And then when I rolled with him again, he did that to me. But with me, he grabbed me, and he went, bam, bam,

and bashed me against the wall. Not hard, just playful. Just to show me again that, you know, the chance of me actually doing anything or having any control over this whole experience was zero. So that's that's that aha moment. I was like, okay, this jiu jitsu thing is way more because I was bigger than him. I knew I could lift more weights than him. I know that at this point.

But it didn't matter at all. So that's, yeah, that's when I realized that. So I got a lot more powerful one. So I was a white belt, a white belt, but I was training. So after Higgs comes my house, he destroys me. I'm like, okay, I'll be there tomorrow. Give me the address.

I walk in, I'm like, hey, I want to sign up for unlimited classes. Do you want to try a class? No, I want to sign up on limited classes now. At Fabios. Yep, at Fabios. So go in there, start training, and just I'm taking classes during lunch. I drive down from the team, go take a lunch class. I would train with guys in the morning.

Anyone I could get to train with, I was training, and then I'd come at night. I'd take the beginner's class, and I'd take the advanced class. And then I do open mat. And then Fabio would kick Dean and I off the mat at 9 o'clock and tell us to get lies. And so when he was, I was training, but I was still a white belt, right? So this guy shows up, and it's another seal.

And I didn't know him. He was from the East Coast, and I didn't know him, and he was strong, and he was a blue belt, right? So I go, okay, this guy's a blue belt. He's going to be good. Well, we had some wars, right? So I'm a white belt. He's a blue belt, but I'm trained out in San Diego, which has really good jihitsu. Obviously, I'm training with Dean, learning from Fabio.

We're training all the time. So I'm pretty good for a white belt. Right, right. So him and I are having a war, and he's only in town for about a week, or maybe a week and a half. Two weeks at the most. White belt war. White belt warriors. So we're going stalemate every day.

Stale mate, stalemate, stalemate, stalemate. The last day, the last day, he gets a, he gets mounted on me. He was a college, a college wrestler, and a very competitive guy and a great guy, by the way. the last day he like knows he wants it he gets mounted on me he digs in a a choke a geechoke like an ex choke and just puts the pressure and uh smashing my face doesn't care and gets into my neck i tap and that's that so so this guy now we you know he goes back to the east coast we continue with our careers. I'm now training even more. You know, I'm just

training and training and training and training and training. I'm training with Dean. I ended up going to college. When I went to college, I trained even more. And then finally, so I would see him occasionally. You know, and it's, oh, you're still training? He goes, yeah, you know, I'm still training, still training. And he actually competed in Worlds and did well

in Worlds as a Purple Belt. I think he actually won World as a Purple Belt. And eventually got his Brown Belt. And so finally, like 10 years later, So now, I mean, I literally Dean's main training partner for something like 12 years at this point. And like you said, this is when Dean's just dominating. So I'm going to a seal conference on this remote location.

And I look at the roster of who's going to be there and he's going to be there. And I went to Home Depot and I bought like a 30 by 30 can. canvas um a canvas you know tarp to put on the ground so I could train with him and we and I send him an email like hey I see that you come to conference let's train me he's like absolutely look forward to it I'm like I do too and so we get out there we fly to this place we meet up and I say let's train and we get on the mat and I'm just you know like a thousand times better than I was and I'm again I'm at this point I've been training with Dean I'd gone through a whole competition phase so anyways and he's been working and he's

been deploying and he's been being a seal so I mean I just trained more and and I was just all over him and so I submitted him a bunch of times and then and then you know he kind of said like can you just show me some stuff I was like yeah man sorry for you that was the victory yeah yeah yeah but uh but it was funny and then I would always joke with him about it and I kind of tell that story he was like almost I put the spin on it as if I was thinking about him the whole time it's not true I just this yeah but uh and then one time years later I saw him and and we were in uh we were in DC we're actually at the Pentagon hadn't seen him for a year or two and I see him and I'm in my

my khaki uniform you know with short sleeves and he's like oh you looking skinny you losing weight and I look back and I said I'm just trying to get down to your weight class to make it more even next time. He just laughed, but a great guy, great guy, great guy, great guy. That's funny. That happens a lot of the time where you'll develop just through whether it be this kind of thing where you trained and then they leave and they come back kind of thing or someone who hangs around.

You develop that little sense of competition. It usually happens with a guy who's close to you. It kind of starts with you or maybe kind of you meet them and you just start off the relationship for lack of better time. You start off at a similar level. you know and then you kind of develop this little competition like that's the guy you know yeah and you always when you get off the bus when you get off the training bus it's you're going to lose time you know people are going to get better if you that's why you can't get off the bus yeah you got to

stay on the boss at all cost you got to stay on the training bus yeah if you get off the bus completely people are going to stuff the bus going away right yeah and if they're on the if your little training buddies on that bus oh yeah yeah very very hard to get you guys very hard to You're done. But there's been a series of periods over time. You know, one of them that always, Dean and I talk about a lot is he was killing me for like three months with the front head and arm.

Just hammered me with it and just couldn't get out of it, smashing me. And then one day he goes, oh, if you want to get out of it, just do, put your hand on the hip and switch your head to the other side. And I'm like, bro, so I tried him like, seriously? You didn't, it's been three months and you didn't show me that? Yeah, yeah. what's your deal you know and uh but it also showed me that that that is sometimes what i remember from that is that sometimes these simple moves are so effective and they're so obvious and all you

need is just to get that little bit of knowledge you know to make you be able to escape this position that i was held in for three months yeah yeah i wouldn't call them obvious but just seemingly obvious like hindsight 20 20 20 20 they seem obvious yes you're right but it it's it's that's the beautiful thing about jit-to and you never know it's another thing is why you don't get off the bus because you never know what day you're going to learn that thing you know what minute what training partner's going to say hey if you moved your hips right here you'd you'd have tapped me yeah yeah yeah actually dean taught me something in that exact same scenario he didn't he didn't hammer me with him it and then teach it to me. He just was, he noticed that I had an opportunity to do it. It was just a small thing. It's, it's, it's hard to explain without, you know, doing it, but he did

that. But it was just a matter of, instead of moving your hips the natural way that you always want to do, you just twist them the other way and it breaks a certain grip that he can control you with. But yeah, so it is so true. What about, um, like, um, you know, some embarrassments.

I don't, I don't get embarrassed on the mat. I mean, you get tapped out. it happens. Right. Yeah. I'm not embarrassed by it. Yep. Even if you get caught, I mean, it just doesn't matter.

Well, how would you be embarrassed? Yeah. Yeah. And embarrassed, I think is a strong term because that's true. I mean, I don't think I've ever been like embarrassed. Like, ah, but I actually is, I think pretty much only with you where it's not embarrassing. It's just like when I think back on it, I'm like, man, I should have been maybe mentally

tougher. Remember when I said like give into like a claustrophobia thing? Oh, yeah, yeah. But you were real good at it because I'd only catch it with you. Yeah, yeah. No, once I realized that weakness, I acted like Chairman Mao and just attacked the weakness and would just smother your claustrophobia. Yeah, and there's a few times where I was like, I admitted to myself that I was like, I didn't want to deal with that at that time. And I was, like, mad at myself, but I was never really embarrassed.

You know what? Next time we roll, I'm going to explore your improvement. Yeah, bro, you tested it the other day because you have a thing and whatever do you, but you wear cotton shirts a lot of the time when you're. So after rolling for a while, that cotton shirt is like being waterboarded in certain position. Yeah. And you were waterboarding me the other day. Yeah. And, but man, no factor, no vote. Wasn't giving in to that one.

I like that. Chaco podcast is helping out that goes jujitsu game. Legit. All right. You good? Yeah. I'm good. Yeah.

But I agree with you. It's not a grind. I don't think it's a daily grind. And, you know, looking back, the question also says, what submissions are you? proud of. Again, that's sort of like the embarrassment thing. You know, you do a submission. Hey, you're jih Tzu worked.

Yeah. And even when I talk to people, like, they say, I'm going to catch you one day. Right. And I go, good, man. That's awesome. Yeah. Jitsu works. If you use it on me, it's going to work.

And I would, I will admit that that right there, I'm going to catch you one day. That's, that's there, but not to any, like, legitimate or significant degree. Because I'll tell you, I have that in my head about you. I'll catch you one day. And I know you have it in your mind that, no, you won't. And even if you were to, tell me, you know, I don't have that my straight.

Well, no, I, I accept it. You know, because here's the deal. If I just didn't want, if I didn't want you to ever catch me, what would I do? Wouldn't roll with you. Right. Yeah. But I don't care. You know what I mean? I'm going to roll with you all the time. Yeah. Whoever steps on the mat. Yeah.

Because what's the worst case scenario? Get tapped out. It means it got a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of presents those opportunities to be like, okay, my game's not all perfect. Because if you don't get, you don't realize how many holes you have, you know, when you're getting everybody. sometimes you do make like a little mistake and this is a good life lesson too sometimes you make a little mistake with somebody and you relax with somebody and they get and they might catch you when normally if you went a hundred times more and you didn't relax at that moment but you can't live in that world because you got to relax when you train otherwise you won't explore new positions and get put in compromised positions and all that so yeah and again it's not to any real significant degree it's more just like a fun kind of competition

thing that you have with certain people and you're like yeah I'm gonna tap that guy one day you know or you don't talk trash to him or whatever that's up unfortunately I'm the victim

of that attitude towards me yeah well you have to be here you're the guy on the top two of our good guys roll today they're rolling with each other they're laughing they're literally laughing

they're literally laughing they're literally like telling jokes to each other when it's my turn to go on them it's murder time they're bringing it they're smashing they're bringing it

and it was it was it was bones bones Jones Justin Jones who's an animal and strong and good and it was Taylor Taylor and Taylor's just a complete beast

but those guys are rolling with each other it's all giggles and laughing and they come with me and they're bringing the heat because you know what they're thinking exactly what you just said maybe they can get that tap get it today it will be a grind though

if you have this specific mindset which can be common and sometimes your mind can go in and out of it where if your goals are predicated on like something outside of just learning jiu jutsu like sometimes people would be focused on the belt oh yeah i want to get my purple belt or whatever and when am i going to get that purple belt and then people tell you the answer really is if you want to answer that question put in the time put in the work learn all this stuff and one day it will come to you yeah so that's your goal it's the same thing when i talk about people in there in their career

You know, they say, I want to get promoted. If you're in your career to get promoted, it's going to be a grind. Yeah. If you're in your career, you're trying to do a good job. Like when I was in the military, I didn't care about promotion. I was just trying to do a good job. And when you do a good job, you'll get noticed at some point, and you'll get your promotion. Yeah.

But if all you're trying to do is get promoted, scheme and maneuver and all that stuff, it's not going to be fun. Yeah. And it's whack. And you see people, everyone, you can, when someone's doing that, you can tell. Because they'll be, when the teachers are around. they won't roll with good guys and get good work. They'll just, you know, they'll do stuff or they'll avoid rolling with people because they want to look good and demonstrate to the teacher, hey, look, I'm rolling like a purple belt.

Give it to me, you know, so they have that kind of approach to it. And it gets in your way. And yeah, it will be a grind because you're going to be like, man, how many hours do I have to put into this thing? Because you're focused on when am I going to get the belt. And you can fall in and out of that sometimes, too. Because it kind of depends on your environment. If everyone's thinking like that or if they're even vocal about it, you know, you can't

help but kind of maybe feel that and be like maybe that's kind of the thing you know yeah don't worry about your belt yeah man i didn't even know that there because when i started i was going with dean so it was all no gee so i didn't really know really about belts and jimmy remember jimmy yeah he was like hey come to class tomorrow we have promotions so be sure to come and i was like oh that's cool I thought he meant promotions like some brands were coming in to promote their products and stuff. So it would be a fun time. So I was like, oh, yeah, that's cool. He's like, yeah, so come like that.

And I'm like, yeah, all right. So you got the blue belch? Well, I said, I can't really make it because usually I work at night or whatever. And he's like, no, no, you want to come? And I was like, all right, I said, I'll try. And so I'm like, fun. And he's like, no, no, you're getting promoted. I was like, what does that mean?

And I didn't say, what does that mean? But I was like, I'm being. He's like, yeah, you're getting your blue belt. And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess, right? You get belts, right? But I was just training and competing. And I think that that, I learn like a, I mean, I think as a white belt, if you're into it, you learn the most at that time. Because you're going from zero up to like, you know.

The learning curves. Yeah, it's more steep for sure. But, yeah, I think that's a good attitude to maintain at all costs, like maintain that attitude. I just want to learn the next thing to learn. If it's timing, I'm not learning that. The other thing that's a bummer on that, same. topic is when people get the purple belt and you never see them again. Yeah. Or they get their brown belt and you never see them again. When they get their

black belt, you never see them again, you know, you're just starting out when you get your purple belt. It's when you're starting to get good. That's when you're starting to become a real jiu-jitsu player. Yeah. Yeah. It's when you when you have a lot, I don't want to say most or all or nothing, but you have a lot of legit set weapons. Yeah. You just got to know how to use them. You've got to start learning how to use them. The difference is a purple belt. and a blue belt, I mean, a purple belt, you know, I'll roll with purple belts in our gym, and they're competitive, you know, most of the blue belts,

unless they're studs, or, you know, you're not going to be really threatened with anything, even positionally. But the purple belt's a whole different story, you know? You make a mistake with a purple belt. They're there right there. You're going down. Yep, absolutely true. And yeah, and that's a weird one, because in my experience,

anyway, I've seen their, like, polar opposites as far as that kind of personality, the guy who will get a belt and disappear. or the guy will get a belt and the day he gets his belt, he's like, like he's been training for six months when you weren't looking or something,

just in that one day, because I think it's a mental thing. Oh, they rise to the occasion. Exactly, right. Yeah. So, yeah, in their mind, they're like, you know, that's another good point.

Don't be in a hurry to get your belts anyways, because you have so much more, you're free to make mistakes. You're a blue belt, you're a white belt. I kept one of my buddies as a white belt for like years. And I said, And right now, you know what he is? Been training for 10 years?

Blue belt. Because he's overseas. He's been traveling all this stuff. And he should be a purple belt at least. Yeah. He's tapping out black belts. So they're going to give it to him where he's training. But it's one of those things.

Yeah. Yeah, the belt thing is, and it's easier said than done, I think, especially if you're in a certain environment or a certain type of person. But if at all possible, don't think about the belt. No. Don't think about your belt. I think that's the... Think about the knowledge.

Yeah. That'll be the one-way ticket and, to this little realm of thinking Jiu-Jitsu is a long, repetitive grind. I'm not saying that's why, but I'm saying that is a good way to think like that. Definite factor. Yes, big time, big time. Next question. Jocko, from your experience or observation, how does one learn humility?

And on top of that, talk about gaining more self-confidence. So this here was actually two questions. two questions. One of them, how do you learn humility? And the other one is how do you gain more self-confidence? Of course, I paired these together because there's a dichotomy in those two, right? If you have a bunch of self-confidence, then you're not being humble. And if you're being too humble, then you don't have self-confidence. So a good analogy of this, of course, what we were just talking about is Jiu-Jitsu because when you start Jiu-Jitsu, and we'll turn this into a metaphor for life, but when you start Jiu-Jitsu, you very quickly learn, number one, that you can get beat, that you're not

everything that you thought you were, right? And at the same time, you start to gain confidence. I mean, it makes you more confident because you realize that as you have knowledge, it's the things that other people don't know. And so it's the same thing with life, because if you're in life and you step out into the arena, right? You're going to realize that you're not, you don't know everything. That's something you're going to realize. And the more that you realize that you don't know everything, the more it humbles you, but also in a reverse way actually makes you more confident because now you're gaining

knowledge because you are stepping into the arena. So it's like with Jiu-Jitsu, when you spar and your role, you're going to get tapped. Yes, but the more you do it, the more confident you get. And the more you accept the fact that you don't know everything. You don't, like the question before, like, what are you embarrassed about? Why would you be embarrassed in the sport? Don't be embarrassed. Go there and get tapped out.

Good. You're learning. You know? And that's what you have to do in life. If you want to gain humility and you want to gain self-concernation. confidence in life, you have to get on the mat, right? You've got to step up in lead. You've got to step up and talk.

You've got to volunteer for the hard job. You've got to take risks. That's how you're going to gain the confidence and the humility, because sometimes you're going to get beat. Sometimes you're going to win. But you won't make any of that progress unless you take the opportunity to step out on the mat, step into the arena, step into the cage, step onto the stage. step up onto the leadership pedestal.

That's how you make it work. Because when you're humble, that's what humility comes from. You realize that you're not perfect, and you realize that nobody is. So it's like that old thing, a walk in and picture everyone with their underwear on or whatever. When you realize that everyone else is human,

that increases your confidence. Because you're not looking at everyone like, they're old, they're masters. No, they're not. They're just other people. And so, that's what I would do. If you want to gain confidence and you want to gain humility,

both of them, get out there, get on the mat, get on the stage, or in the game, into the leadership position, whatever the case may be, and live.

And don't be embarrassed. And don't be abusive when you do do well. You know, that's a thing, again, that's a thing about jujitsu and it's a thing about life. You realize you're not going to be, there's always going to be someone that's better than you.

That's okay. just be humble, learn from it. And when you know that there's other people that are going to be better than you, it's okay. You can be confident in what you can do because you know you're going to be better than other people. Yeah, I was talking with Greg and Tim today about humility. So there's like internal humility and external humility.

So the external humility isn't really humility. It's the guy who's like super respectful when he talks to people and how he talks. But on the inside, he's like, eh, I'm, better than everyone. I know everything. And the opposite is, if someone's the opposite, on the outside, he's like, heck yeah, like a Connor McGregor.

Like, I'm the, you know, I'm the greatest. I'm going to beat him. My timing is dope and all this stuff and how good I am. But on the inside, when it comes down, when one's looking, when it's time to train, he's learning from everyone. Some guy, a white belt gives him a tip. He considers that tip. Is this going to help me, you know?

So his humility allows him to learn from everybody. And, you know, he ends up being more successful. because of that humility, you know, and that's like the internal humility. That's true statements. You know how, you know, some people there like, hey, I'm not cocky, I'm confident. Do you think that there's like a difference between coffee? There is absolutely a difference. Yeah.

There's absolutely a difference. And it's a dichotomy because you have to be confident but not cocky. Right. Confidence, like, you know, confidence saying, hey, I know I could, I know I could win this match. or, hey, I know I can make this happen, or hey, I know I can lead this mission or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that. Cawkey is, hey, I know I can win this and I don't even need to train. Or, hey, I know I can lead this mission and we don't even need to prepare.

That's cocky and that's wrong. So confident but not cocky. It's a simple dichotomy of leadership, which is actually in the book. Yeah, yeah. So, yes, there is a difference. Or you know how some people, they won't do it necessarily in terms of, of being a leader or anything like that. They'll just do it in life, you know, these people.

It's like, yeah, because they talk about themselves all the time or something like that, right? So in those cases, I kind of differentiated it where a cocky person is going to talk about himself and how good he or she or whatever is unprompted. Confident is they're going to answer honestly about how they feel about their preparedness or skill or whatever, but it has to be prompted. They're not going to just go out of their way and be like, hey, I'm the greatest. you know but if they're if someone's like hey oh you know honest question do you think you're the greatest and they really think they are the greatest in their experience or whatever they're going to

say the honest thing you know that's like a confident versus cocky i was my daughter said the other day i was considering bringing my daughter on the my oldest daughter on the podcast because people ask about parenting a lot i'm not going to do it i've decided but you know i was like what kind of questions would i ask her and i I said, well, tell, you know, I was just kind of experimenting. I said, tell people something that they wouldn't expect about me or something that you recognize about me. And one of the things she said was she heard me talking to someone about jujitsu that didn't know

me. And they were like, oh, oh, do you train jiu-jitsu? And I said, oh, yeah, I do. And they said, are you good? And I said, like, I'm all right. You know, I've been training for a while, so I'm all right. And she said, I was really, like, I was surprised at how humble you were you been doing jihitsu for 20 years.

And, you know, I said, you know, you don't know somebody. first of all, that person might be better than me. Yeah. That's a reality. I'm like, yeah, I'm really good. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

And you know what? I'm listening to this and I'm trying to think in my experience your reaction to any Jujitsu questions in that way. So I don't think I've ever heard you, and I've known you for 10 years, I think, maybe eight years or so. I don't think I've ever heard you say, yeah, I tap that guy out. I don't think I've ever heard you say that. Yeah. Maybe if I asked you, no, no, I can't really, like, picture you saying that. Yeah, I tapped, right, I tapped them up.

Yeah, it's one of those weird things, too, because it, in a one way, it means something. In another way, it doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Because I've been training for longer than you, you made a mistake, you know. Yeah, exactly. And that's kind of the point where in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. You're right. But in this immature way that's in a part.

Part of that, if you've been doing jujitsu for even a little while, you'll have at least this much of it and you're like, hey, did you tap that guy out? Kind of thing. And I was reading a thing just kind of online, a little fun thing where it was like unwritten rules of jiu-jitsu. You don't go and talk about how you tap this guy out today. You don't do that. And that's true. Yeah. But the reason there's an article like that is because it's a small part of that in all of us that wants to say, you know, hey, you know, maybe with your close friends, you'd be like, hey, you know, maybe with your close friends, you'd be like, yeah.

Or you'll come home and tell your wife who doesn't care at all, by the way. but it's there in you. Yeah. But with maturity, you're not going to go and say, hell yeah, I tapped him out. Yeah, but with you, I mean, especially now, we're kind of close. I still don't, I've never heard you say, yeah, I got him. I tapped him out. Even, I remember one time, I'm not going to say who because he's a well-known guy,

and he came and visited it, and I rolled with him and he just beat me. I was back when I was a purple belt, and then you rolled with him. I didn't see the whole role. I saw you go and then I asked you afterwards. I was like, hey, so, you know, like, all I said was what happened? Because I didn't remember that's how you'd always ask me. You know, like, hey, what happened? you know like how'd he go kind of thing and then so i asked you that and you're like it

it really felt like you wanted to say it but it was like almost like you had this rule almost or something you were you were like we're you were getting after it and you just left that that i was like i respect it respected uh that's but yeah yeah and i just kind of realized that and i don't think you've ever said that yeah i think that's probably a decent policy to have yeah i had a guy one time that passed my guard. Who me? No, it wasn't you. Somebody passed my guard

and held it for about a second and a half and then stood up and literally ran around screaming. That was his victory. Yeah, you told me about that. Yeah, I was kind of, wow.

You know, it's strange. That was probably strange to you, but although I would maybe, I'm not saying I would never do that. I might do that as a joke, you know, but, man, I feel where he was coming from. I'm being honest with you. You know, actually for a while, this held me back because people got so intent on passing my guard that I had to defend it as if I was defending a tap. I'm not kidding.

And so now, and then finally, like, probably six months ago, maybe a year ago, I just said, you know what, I'm going to start letting people pass my guard just so I can play different parts of the game. And so now I just, you know, I'm not that concerned about it anymore. People getting all crazy. Next question. Decentralized command. Ever thought of how parents, ultimately, deploy their children into the world and the parallels? Yeah.

And so people have been asking me to talk about parenting. Mm-hmm. Since the podcast started. And I really have been avoiding it. Again, one of the things I was considering was bringing my daughter on, possibly, and I'm not going to do it. And my oldest daughter, she's 16. And I was thinking myself, if I was on a video or a recording when I was 16 years old,

I would not want to hear that. I would not want to be that. You know, you just wouldn't want that. So I'm not going to do that to my daughter, even though she's super mature, smart, articulate. It would definitely be interesting. But I'm not going to subject her to that kind of, environment.

And the other reason I don't want to talk about parenting very much is because my oldest kid is 16. I have no idea if I've been successful or not. I don't. I mean, doing great in school,

great, that's cool. But I need another 10 years before I can pass judgment and actually maybe even more than that because if they're successful, not because okay, if they're successful,

what's success? That they got into a good college, that they got a good job, that they have lots of money, that they have kids, spouse, house, cars, whatever. At the same time, what if they have all that, but they're miserable? Because that happens all the time. I meet people like that all the time.

They got a bunch of money. They're not successful because they're angry. They're upset. They're depressed. Their life sucks. So was I a good parent if I drove them into that position? Maybe not. Yeah.

So I'm not, I don't like to, I don't want to talk about something that I'm not feeling super confident about because. I can't pass judgment yet. I can tell you my opinion, but even that, I don't want to influence you and I don't have facts. I can tell you about leadership because I've been in leadership positions, hard ones, and I can talk with at least some level of confidence that what I'm saying is true because I've seen it and I've seen it in the military and I've seen it in the civilian world.

And I've seen it on teams. I've seen it in a bunch of different places. So I have a pretty good feeling about it. Parenting? It's just a little bit. bit different because I don't know because there's definitely a different interaction. Now, and for everyone that's been waiting this entire podcast, here it comes, that being said, you do absolutely have to use decentralized command with your kids because you're not going to be

there for every decision that they make. You're not going to be there every time they get past a drug to snort or every time they've had some alcohol and they need to drive somewhere or every time they stumble into a bad situation or they see someone participating in something that's wrong or they see someone perpetrating a crime and maybe they could do something to stuff you're not going to be there all the time so just like decentralized command you have to set them up you have to put a you have to give them guidelines that they're going to take out there commander's intent they've got to understand right and wrong they've got to understand long term goals they've got to understand

consequences they've got to understand accountability for their actions and they've got to understand, I think this is one of the most important things to teach kids is they've got to understand how what they're doing today is going to affect their lives in five years, in three years, in 10 years, in 15 years. The things that you're doing today, and some adults don't even get that, unfortunately,

that what you're doing today is going to affect you long term. And there were some times, you know, where I slid into that, you know, where you're in the seal. teams, you just don't think it's going to last forever. You know, so you're going to do what you're going to do. And so that's commander's intent. That's giving your subordinate leadership, which is your kids, the understanding, just like Mao said, the understanding of why they're doing what they're doing, why their health

matters, why their education matters, why respecting people matters, why creativity matters, all these different things, explaining them why so that they understand so that when they are out there and they have to make a decision. They have to, they have to choose that they understand why the decision matters and therefore they can act appropriately. And I think that's what you have to do as a parent

who is in fact leading your children through life. Yeah. Whether you like it or not. Yeah. And I think that that's, boom. That's a good move Not getting too deep into specific things

About how you specifically parent Because they're like, is there even such thing as perfect parenting? Everyone's like everyone's desires for the way their kids turn out is different Some people want their, you know, their kid to be this free spirit travel the world Don't get nailed. And guess what that kid's going to do? Going to join the military at 18. Right.

Well that depends. Because they're going to rebel. Potentially, yes. So yeah, that depends. And I think that the. back to what you're saying about like some even some adults don't know the consequences of your actions that's that goes on in the front of your brain here and that's the last part to develop as a human being it's the last part of your brain that's why that's like teenage boys especially

right teenage 16 17 18 they get equipped with basically all the hardware but the software the part that controls it is all jammed up so they're physically strong they got hormones they got a driver's license probably they have rights now right so they go off and they're just basically shooting off their guns with no you know no you know whatever the software is to yeah you know so

that's when they make mistakes that's the way they make all these these crazy mistakes with their free easily influenced through friends because the part of their brain that that helps determine okay this this consequence is going to come along with this specific action is underdeveloped and on average and it gives you know it's

give or take but on average it gets fully developed at about 24, 25 years old. Well, that explains a lot. Yeah, it does. Absolutely does. So that's as far as decision-making. So, yeah, and that probably explains why dealing with teenagers becomes harder because they have all this hardware

and the software still trying to be updated. But back to the perfect parent thing, there's no real perfect parent. People want different things for their kid, and everyone's different. Everyone has different philosophies. Do I spank them? and not Spankham, I read this, I read that.

So the outcome is going to be different, and those different outcomes are going to appeal to different people. So it's basically like if you have a specific outcome that you want your kid to have, it's going to be determined by a bunch of things. But I think in my experience and both being a parent and having parents, so to speak, is consistency. Like if you have a message or, you know, some kind of discipline that you're imposing or some kind of just idea that you want to you want to stick with your kids be consistent on it don't you

know don't say hey no jumping on the bed one day and then the next day you don't feel you're lazy you're tired or whatever and you don't say hey don't jump on the bed because they're going to be like oh well is this the day i can jump on the bed or is it not i want to jump on the bed when you're not looking guess what i'm going to be doing because i know that's not when you're but if you're no jump in the bed jump no jump they're just going to say okay there's no jumping on the bed because they're going to be influenced by somebody. They're going to get rules and how do I act? How do I be? What do I say?

What don't I say? They're going to get that from somebody. And if you're all inconsistent, you might as well just be noise on the TV that comes on sometimes. If you're inconsistent with it, they're going to get it from, I don't know, someone who's more consistent. That could be the neighbor. That could be TV. That could be the kid that they look up to in school who's not very smart. Or maybe it's smart.

I don't know. There's a teacher, you know, the drug dealer, whoever. They're going to get it from somewhere. So I think if you be consistent, they'll get it from you. And the more things that you, that are conducive to their success, in whatever, whatever you consider, concess, or success, the more consistency you display in regards to those things. Because you know the outcome. You know the outcome that they want. You know that if they act a certain way, it's going to facilitate this certain outcome.

You know that, or you should. I hope you, I hope you do. So if you just remain consistent on those issues to shape that, Yeah. That's when it's going to work. I'm going to throw one more wrench into your system. I was kind of agreeing with what you're saying, but I just want to throw this out there for everybody.

If you got kids, in my opinion, your kids are not going to be who you want them to be. They're going to be them. And that is the biggest hurdle to get over mentally. I had to get, I thought that the kids were going to be what I want them to be. But guess what, they're not. They're going to be what they are.

They're humans. And I got four kids and every one of them is completely different from the other one. They all came from me. But they're all, and they all got raised with the same me and my same wife. And yet they're all radically different. Why is that? It's because they're different humans.

And so if you try and impose your vision on your kids, it will not be successful. And you'll have a meltdown at some point. That's my opinion. I could be wrong, but that's my opinion. And I am not an expert on parenting. And I don't want people to obey my thoughts on parenting. But I got to ask the question.

So I answered it. And I'm going to leave it at that. Yeah, that's true. And so much has to do with their environment. In fact, it's, yeah, so much has to do with their environment. So where each kid, like, let's, okay, you have four kids, right? the first kid coming, you know, coming into the world and boom, I'm the first kid. Yeah, that's the first born, the psychology and all this stuff.

Yeah, that's it. And I'm not even saying necessarily. I'm not going to go into the psychology part of it. I'm just saying, boom, that's a different experience all together. Being the second, same thing. He has that one kid and then all these little kids behind him, you know, so it's just, you're just right out the gate. You're a different person, you know, so that's where you're going to see all these crazy different personalities. We were raised in the same house, same parents, my parents were the same the whole time, but just starting out. Like, you ever, you ever see Price is Right, that game, or the game show, Price is Right? Remember old school?

Bob Barker, I think it's somebody else now. Anyway, there's a game called Plinko, and it's this, this. Is this a long exploding? You go Plinko, where it's like this board, right? And at the end, it's are these little slots, and you drop this kind of this, it's not a ball. It's like a little puck that kind of goes, but. I get the image. It's like these pins, so it goes, beep, beep, beep, it's randomly.

Just go, pretty, maybe. it'll go through this and you can kind of, I forget if you can control it or not. You can't. Yeah, so as a parent, you can control the board, but there's so many different little things that it can hit and go this way. So if you're consistent and just consistently push one direction, it'll tend to go, but then all these other factors are in play that you can't control. So eventually that's how it is, and that's true how you say you can't just shape exactly who you want to be. In Plinko, you don't say, hey, I'm going to get it in that little slot right there, and then it goes there every time. I mean, it's really hard to do that, you know?

Plinkgo game. I'm telling you, Plinko, you look into it. It's the same thing. It's the exact. Plinco parenting, the same thing. Maybe we need to sell Jocko podcast Plinko boards on here. See, now you've gone too far. All right.

Next question. Be careful with your kids, is all I'm saying. Yeah. Be careful. Be careful. Be careful. Be careful. Be careful.

Give them the broad guidance. Yeah. That's what you want to give them. Why health matters, why education matters, why creativity matters. Let them understand why. Why. so that they can make their own decisions because they are their own people. True story.

Next question. So what do you think about CrossFit? Seems you do a lot of the same movements in workout schemes. So CrossFit, I think CrossFit is a solid base for things. I also think that CrossFit actually deserves a pretty good amount of credit for getting the general populace of the world moving in the right direction when it comes to fitness. I've been doing CrossFit type stuff before there was such a thing as CrossFit. I mean, the movements that you use in CrossFit are movements that have, they didn't invent anything new, right? But they did

reintroduce. It's kind of like the Gracie family, to be honest with you. And there's, you know, both the Gracie family and CrossFit, in my opinion, are responsible. responsible for really a paradigm shift in those two arenas, the arena of fitness and the arena of martial arts. If you looked at martial arts in the 70s and the 80s, what was it? It was karate. It was kung fu. It was Ikeido. It was traditional martial arts. It was not full contact sparring. It was just radically different than what it is now. And that came from the Gracie family who created the UFC and broadcast it and got the information out there and spread the word of Jiu-Jitsu, which part of Jiu-Jitsu and part of the UFC is that you have to learn to wrestle and you have to learn to strike.

So that all kind of came afterwards, but it's all related to the initial birth of the UFC and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. And that's the same thing, in my opinion, with CrossFit. you know crossfit again were people doing Olympic lifting years ago yes they were but it's a very small if you okay you look at the the martial arts schools in the 70s look at fitness places in the in the 70s and 80s it was uh those weird you know machines and aerobic stuff and the thing that women would like tie around their stomachs and would like shake them i mean just all kinds of bizarre a bizarre stuff and that's just stuff that was just ineffective.

And so I think CrossFit deserves credit for spreading, you know, the knowledge of squatting and cleaning jerks and pull-ups and muscle-ups and all those things. And so, you know, again, like I said, you've got, there were decathletes before CrossFit. There were Olympic lifters, gymnasts before CrossFit, and those people were incredibly fit. But CrossFit popularized those activities and those exercises more than anybody else was able to. I mean, CrossFit is popular, and Jiu-Jitsu is popular. I mean, if you look at the number of Jiu-Jitsu schools and CrossFit boxes in the country,

they're probably the same growth pattern. So I definitely give CrossFit credit for, bringing that kind of well-balanced fitness to the forefront. And I think the programming, you know, is fine. For me, it's a little bit too random. I like stuff to be a little bit more scheduled, I guess you could say. And sometimes I need more volume than what they have. And I think you need more focus to get really good at some things.

You need to do them more often than the straight CrossFit would prescribe. I think, you know, now people realize, you know, For a while, they kind of held the line of like, no, all you need to do is what it says to do on the CrossFit workout of the day. Just like in the beginning, Jiu Jitsu, Gracie Jiu Jitsu said, all you need to do is just do Gracie Jiujitsu. And clearly both those attitudes are wrong. You know, what you really need to do is get that base and then open your mind. Open your mind up. and you get to know yourself what you're you get to know your own physicality after a while

and then you know what your weaknesses are and you know what hurts you and you know what you can do more of and you know what you should do less of so I think that as a base you know like if someone just randomly says you know hey I never worked out before what should I do I think CrossFit is a fine place to point him you know there's some other really good stuff out there, but, you know, if you, yeah, CrossFit's a good one. And I think it's a good starting point. It's going to teach you the basics of squats and pull-ups and dips. And there's going to be a million people that are going to say,

they don't really teach you Olympic lifting properly and you need to learn better form. I get it, right? Don't. If you want to learn to be an Olympic lifter, CrossFit is not going to be the best place to learn to be an Olympic lifter. You need to go get an Olympic lifting coach. Yeah. If you want to be a great gymnast, you need to get a gymnastics coach.

But if you want an introduction to this stuff, a basic introduction, then I think it's a solid. And again, I think you need to give it credit for what it did. And then most importantly, you need to keep an open mind that things change. And you have to change. We all have to change and adapt and grow and evolve so that you can become better. So that's my opinion. Yeah, the CrossFit, undeniably, what it did is took working out.

And some CrossFit workouts can be hard. I did CrossFit for a little bit. even for someone who's in pretty good shape, like they can be hard. And what, an element of CrossFit that I'm not sure if this was intended from the beginning, but it got this way quick,

is kind of the group supportive environment, you know? So what it did was it turned it into, now it's a sport, it's a straight up sport now. And really all it is is exercising, the sport of exercising being, and the guy who wins the CrossFit games, what's he called the fittest guy? So it brought fitness into this more of an activity to do rather than,

okay, you got to do this short. You got to work out. It made it into like an activity, like boom. And not just, okay, I'm going to go do some easy stuff with, you know, the girls on the weekend. It's for real, you know, like a hard workout. I'm going to put you through. You get in a group in a CrossFit situation and they're going to be yelling,

supporting you. and it's way easier to stick with a workout program when you have people supporting you and they support you like for real support you. They're yelling at you, finish, beneficial, all this stuff. And you're way more likely to achieve success rather than someone's like, oh, here, are you going to make it to the gym today?

Oh, yeah, maybe, maybe not or whatever. And they give you good guidance. So again, it made fitness, quote, fitness be popular. You know, this cool thing and a community, you know, in a way that it's, I mean, like you said, There was already some of these, but they're like, okay, bodybuilding and, you know, I don't know, maybe some aerobics, but it didn't have that sense of community.

Oh, yeah. So much more. I mean, you look at a company like Rogue Fitness. Yeah. I mean, they didn't exist, I don't know, five years ago. But, like, I have my old squat rack thing was ancient, right? And it was kind of hard to get back in the day. You want a squat rack now?

Boom. Well, Rogue fitness is a boom. Oh, there you go. Yeah. They're going to send it to you. It's going to show up at your house. in three days. And they're selling

hundreds of thousands of them, I'm sure. And why is that? They're selling rings. They're selling boxes for boxes. Bumper plates. Bumper plates used to be, you'd never see them.

Like, I had bumper plates in the Y where I grew up. And there was two guys that would actually Olympic left. And you go, oh, wow, that's cool. But never in a gym. Now you go to almost any gym now. No, no, almost I shouldn't say that. Because the 24-hour fitness type Globo gyms.

Yes, they do. Oh, do they? Oh, yeah. I haven't been in one in the long time. I avoid them. It's kind of used, yeah. Yeah, all over, all over. And there's over here, and I still have 24-hour fitness membership.

I'll go there, you know, from time to time. Yeah. All of them have straight up, you know, protein Greg. Yeah. He's a trainer, and he's at the Balbo one. Big, full-on. Brett, you want to get your crossfit on? You can go to 24-hour fitness.

Of course, it's more crowded. It's different. The culture is different, which is a big part of CrossFit as well. But facility-wise, oh, yeah, bumpers all up in there. Yeah. So that's all thanks to CrossFit. Right. Yeah, that's exactly your point, you know.

Yeah. Good deal. Next question. Any tips on learning about indirect communication would be handy for business or parenting. I've got another parent. I got a million parenting questions. Yeah. See.

And like I was saying, that that's kind of. know why you can't really just talk about something because there's actually if you want to quantify the parenting questions there's infinity. There's no end to the parenting question because it's just so ambiguous. I don't even know. I mean the bottom line is the bottom line is parenting is leadership so the principles can be applied. Yeah. But there are some dynamics there and they're all in your own head. Yeah. That's where they are. They're in your own head as a parent. They're this emotional thing that you have stronger than you have it for any other person you're ever going to work with. And that is, you know, you want them to succeed more than anybody else.

Yeah. You want them to succeed. You want them to be better. You want them to do better. All those things. And that's the dynamic that makes it tricky. Yeah. And then there's this weird dynamic too of the way they look at you and they either want to impress you or they want to rebel against you or they see you as being, you know, imposing on them. So there's just these other dynamics within the leadership. confine that are that are very challenging and again I can't judge whether I've been successful yet because I only have my oldest daughter is 16 yeah youngest daughter is six and and then I have a daughter another daughter son the middle and then I know that there's specific mistakes that I have made I know that and I you know mistakes like what does that mean you know I mean of course you know mistakes if you go too extreme but because really successful, or I don't say successful, but really driven people. People who are just, you know how you get somebody who's really driven?

Yes, I think I might know. But it's usually, usually because some need, some during development wasn't fulfilled. And I'm not saying, and you can't even say it's a bad thing because as a result, they're driven because psychologically it's like a need that needs to be fulfilled. So since that little cup remained kind of empty a little bit, they're trying to fill it with all these other things because life went on new skills new developments new situations and they're still trying to fill that little psychological cup and it's manifesting in this other way you know through business through you know being a navy seal

jiu jitsu champion you know whatever it may be but but typically and i'm saying every single time i'm sure there's exceptions or maybe there's not exception i don't know but nonetheless you can usually find some need that went on fulfilled somewhere for people who are super driven. So if you made a mistake, parenting, was that really a mistake? You know, in that kind of situation? So, like, the point is, it's so ambiguous. You know, you think you've been, like, what is a successful parent?

Yeah, that's my point. That's why I don't want to talk to people about parenting because I don't know, I don't feel like an authority on it that should be giving instruction. Yeah, it's hard to even, how can you be? I mean, I think I'm doing an okay job. well yeah so you figure if they're not in jail or or super addicted to like drugs or something like this or then you can say okay i'm i think i think in my opinion i'm within the confines of being a successful and you know what since we're talking about it you see some kids i've known kids you know kids i grew up with with nice parents and all that and they go off the rails and and that's really scary do you blame the parents i mean i don't know No. In my opinion, it's because of the parents.

Yes, but that's not the question, though. Do you blame the parents? I don't know. We got a question on here about nature and nurture, so I'm going to talk about that here in a minute. Indirect communication. Yeah, let's get back to this. So, indirect communication is obviously extremely powerful. It's also tricky to pull off because you can't let your emotions show and you can't just speak your mind.

You have to think about what you're going to say. You have to think about how it will be received and understood by the person or by the people that you're talking to. You've got to put yourself into their shoes and hear it from their perspective, and that's really hard to do. And the other piece about this, another piece to think about if you're trying to improve your indirect communication, go into your conversations with a goal, not just a goal of the conversation. yourself, but a strategic goal of what you're trying to accomplish. A commander's intent. Why are you having this conversation? What is the end game?

What is the end state? Where are you trying to, what are you trying to make happen? And keep that in mind as you talk to this person or this group of people and then read and react to see how you're saying and how much what you're saying is leading to the end state that you're looking for. Because sometimes we just think about the conversation itself and the conversation itself doesn't matter. What are you trying to do in the end state? It's like we talked about before a few podcasts ago.

The argument that you're having, whether you're right or whether you're wrong, doesn't matter. What matters is the end state where are you trying to get this to be. How are you trying to influence this person? And remember that the best way to win is for your opponent to not. not even realize that there's a debate. That's the best way to win. And you get some people, some people instinctively

counter everything that you say. They have a response. They have a thing. They're going to counter everything that you say. Don't do that. If you want to work on your indirect communication skills, absorb what they're saying. Right?

The best way to get better at indirect communication is to listen. listen, not talk, but listen. And as a matter of fact, when you sit back and you let people talk, you're progressing so much because most people don't want to listen. Most people want to run their mouths. And if you ever find yourself running your mouth, you should put yourself in check because you're giving away too much information.

And so you want to listen, you want to try to actually understand. Understand what they're saying and here's another good one if you don't understand what they're saying just ask them to explain it again Can you can you explain that to me again? That missed it I don't understand With that what that implies that I want to understand It implies that I'm doing my best to understand It implies that if I don't understand I'm gonna be frank enough with you to tell you that is how you get better in direct communication

Because the more you listen to somebody The better you understand their position. And when you know where someone's position is, the better you can maneuver onto that position. The better you can get to a flank, the better you can make adaptations. And the better tactics you have to win. And that's how you get better at indirect communication. Yeah, you mentioned how, um, how you don't, like if you don't listen and, you know, how, how you, how you, how you, how you,

fail to put yourself in the other person's shoes, right? This is a thing called the curse of knowledge, right? So let's say, I'm this high-level CEO. Sometimes we tend to forget how it is to not be the high-level CEO or how we forget how it is to not know everything we know. That's a curse of knowledge. Like the knowledge basically blocks you from identifying someone who doesn't know. And that goes into these weird details.

You know how when you get enough knowledge, certain significant knowledge becomes common sense to you. But meanwhile, to everyone else, it's not. So you just habitually or unconsciously, you might, let's say, skip over it. Meanwhile, they don't really understand. And then you're just like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong kind of thing. I call it the curse of knowledge. You got to watch out for that curse.

You got to watch out for the curse of knowledge, yes. I like that. I think you got time for one more. Last question. Jaku, what is more important in being successful? successful at achieving your goals, nature or nurture? Okay. So this is the classic question of nature versus nurture.

And in my opinion, it's neither. And my whole life, I've seen people from every different strata. In the SEAL teams, you had everybody. You had Ivy League kids with a silver spoon and you had former gang bangers and hood rats and the same time you had prep school kids and kids from blue collar families and everybody in between there was kids with with the big strong families that were really really close and you had kids with no families kids that were pampered and kids that were abused everything we had everything and in all of those different groups there were

Some people that were successful and got the job done and some people that were unsuccessful and couldn't get it done. And in working with businesses now, I see the same thing. People from every walk of life from the bottom to the top. And I've seen every type of those different types of people be successful. So to me, it's not about nature or nurture. It's about choice. The people that are successful decide they are going to be successful. They make that choice.

And they make other choices. They decide to study hard. They choose to work hard. They choose to be the first person to get to work and the last person to go home. They choose to take on the hard jobs and take on the challenges. They decide that they're going to lead when no one else will. They choose who they're going to hang around with and be associated with and they choose who they're going to emulate. These people choose to become who they want to become.

They aren't inhibited by nature or nurture. They overcome both. And I'll tell you something else, it's never too late to make that choice. You're never too old to decide where you're going to focus your effort. efforts and push to make the most out of every situation. So to me, it's not about what you've been through and where you were. It's about where you're going. And it's about the choices that you make.

It's about choosing. Choose to make yourself smarter and stronger and healthier. choose to work out and study and eat good food and keep your mind clean don't let nature or nurture make you choose to make yourself i think that's all i've got for tonight so to all you troopers out there on the front lines of the battlefield, on the front lines of life. Thanks for joining us in this conversation. Thanks for listening and subscribing and go crank out a review on iTunes or pin it to your social media. Share it.

Let everybody know that we are here and we are moving forward together. into the fray and tell them all that we are not scared of the dark because we're here and we're bringing the light. Thanks for connecting with us through the interwebs

and if you don't know on Twitter at Jocko Willink and Echo is at Echo Charles we also have the Facey Book and with that I'm what is it slash jaco willink

oh wait wait you're yeah I don't know I'm jocco willing and then we have the podcast one right that's Facebook dot com slash jaco podcast there you go

and get on there give us some feedback give us some questions let us know what you think of what's going on here and then we got companies that some companies that support us

support them. It's true. For the Facebook thing too, we don't really post that much on there, but what we do post and will post is going to be like quality stuff. It won't be just like, you know, just a bunch of stuff for, for quantity content. Yeah, I haven't quite got down my system. I've definitely, we went, every question that is posted on either of the Facebooks, I am definitely taking in and putting it into the question bank. That doesn't mean it's going to get answered on the podcast. because we don't have time to answer thousands of questions. But I'm definitely looking at it. I'm reading it.

Sometimes if I see a trend of the same question, boom, I see it four or five, six times, unless it's about parenting. But if I see something four or five times, hey, I'm going to throw it on there and we'll talk about it. Some of them I just answer because I know, hey, you know what, no one cares about this question, but you, whoever you are, somebody's going to give you a short answer or maybe it's a long answer. answer. And so yeah, if you get on there, I'm looking at it. I haven't quite got down my system for Facebook yet. I only just recently am starting to figure out the different parts of it because I've never used it before and I didn't use it that actively. So I'm trying to get better at it. But that's why Twitter's really easy for me. It's like pretty straightforward. Yeah, it's very straightforward. Yeah, Facebook's always changing as well. But in regards to the,

them like because what you do is like twitter you just like the page right it's like follow you like it follows um but some pages man you you you follow it and then it's a bunch of stuff that it's like and this is starting to be not that relevant maybe once a week i'll see some relevant stuff so what um what i'm going to do is like anything i post is going to be very relevant or even like me you know like a like a you know how we record before we start recording i might post some deleted scenes oh deleted scenes humor just every once in a while so you know no harm no follow if you just like it even if you don't want to answer a question or ask question but please ask the question yeah and i'm trying to get to

respond to some of the comments you know what i mean try and try and get on there every once in a while right yeah i think the twitter is is easier just like how you said because it's just super simple boom yeah boom yeah but either way they're both great um on it dot com slash jocko that's where you get your 10% off your supplements and their their supplements are so good man And I'm not super into supplements, that's a thing. But the ones that I take, it's hard to tell the difference a lot of times between brands, but you can tell the difference with these brands. And like the worry bar, for example, in my opinion, that's one of the most genius things.

It is pretty. You know, because like beef jerky, remember when beef jerky came, or not when it came out. It's a warrior bar. No, not even close. But when you saw beef jerky as someone who's into protein, you know, when you're, I don't know, when I turned like 1560. and beef jerky was dang that is dope invented that field all the time

yeah so consider the warrior bar it's like yeah way better it's like beef jerky but but awesome but yeah it's super awesome anyway so anyway that my point is the stuff on it is is good and you get 10% off so that's like a no brainer um yeah on it dot com slash jaco

there you go and then the amazon click through you go to the podcast website which is jaccapodcast.com or jocco store.com either one And you click through to the Amazon before you do your shopping. And you can passively support. Well, Slightly active.

Semi, Semi actively. It's pretty passive. It doesn't cost you anything. Yeah, exactly. And then a lot of people ask for the donation link, and that's on jocco podcast.com.

Through PayPal. Yeah, it uses PayPal real simple, but it's on there. Nonetheless, you know, for everyone that does that, man,

it's so cool to be like, this guy just liked what you're saying. And he was like, here's so money. That is. That's awesome. That's how we pay for microphones and video cameras. Amen.

Or you get a shirt. Get a shirt on jocco store.com. It's pretty cool. One has Jocco's head on it with the word good backwards. So when you look in the mirror, it tells you good. Things are going bad. There's always something good that comes from. There you go.

Keeping it real. Some stickers and mugs as well. Anyway, there it is. And there they are. Nice. And also, if you want some more of this stuff, I reference it several times tonight, but a buddy of mine

Laif Babin, my brother, we wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. It's available in a hardcover, Kindle or audiobook. And we actually read

the audiobook. So if you want to hear us talking more, there's eight hours you can get yourself into war stories and leadership. And it's good times.

And finally, and most importantly, thanks for making the choice. the choice to make yourself better, faster, stronger, smarter, healthier. And of course, thanks to everyone for making the choice to get up, get going, get aggressive, and get after it. So until next time, this is Jocko and Echo. Out.