Jocko Podcast - Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion With JD Baker Pt.2: The Battles Have Begun

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

Just the beginning of the many battles. Battle of Shilo and more.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is the Jocko podcast, Civil War Excursion. Number two, with J.D. Baker and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, J.D. Good evening, Jock. Soldiers of the Army of the Mississippi, I have put you in motion to offer battle to the invaders of your country. With the resolution and discipline and valor becoming men fighting, as you are for all worth living or dying,

You can but march to a decisive victory over the agrarian mercenaries sent to subjugate you and to despoil you of your liberties, your property, and your honor. Remember the precious stake involved. Remember the dependence of your mothers, your wives, your sisters, and your children on the result. Remember the fair, broad, abounding land and the happy home. that would be desolated by your defeat the eyes and hopes of eight millions of people rest upon you you are expected to show yourselves worthy of your lineage worthy of the women of the South whose noble devotion in this war has never been exceeded in any time with such incentives to brave deeds and with the trust that God is with us your generals

will lead you confidently to the combat assured of success. And that right there is General Albert Sidney Johnson, giving a speech, a speech that was given to each regiment as they approached the battle of Shiloh, which is going to be kind of the first really big battle in the Civil War. J.D. How do we get there last episode we left off after Fort Sumner and Lincoln is thinking and I guess it's a it's a fair assessment to say that that Fort Sumner was kind of like a 9-11 moment September 11th moment for the North because 1860 the army you know you talked about this the last the last

episode army was tiny really I mean in 1860 there was 16,000 total men and officers on the role only 14,000 of them were present for duty there was five general officers total most most people were most of the soldiers were posted west of the Mississippi There's only 16 companies east of the Mississippi this is just so in 1860 the military is just absolutely tiny. How many people are stationed on Camp Pendleton, California? Thousands. How about any, what Marine Corps base did you spend the most time on?

LaJune. How many people on LaJune, you think? Oh, at least 35,000 folks. So in one base, there's twice as many people as there are soldiers before the war kicked off. So their September 11th. happens, which is Fort Sumner, and now, now the, now it's on. Now that being said, and I'd say this about September 11th, too, people think, okay, well, war is going to kick off, but the war, what are we talking? Maybe a few months, four or five months, maybe to go down

south, you know, beat back the Confederacy, we'll take everything back over. Is that what we're thinking up north? Oh, yeah, I mean, this is, uh, yeah, probably if you're, if you're looking at it on that aspect. It's like a 90 day. Like, hey, we're just going to, it's a 90 day. Like, hey, man, you know, I could imagine, you know, with, with the, the amount of, of sources available, like going through there, I mean, when you say like five general officers, there's probably like five general officers sharing a cubicle right now in the Pentagon in 2022, you know what I mean? Like, that just always is shocking. So when you're looking at the, at the professional soldier, you know, it does take a, you know, it does take a lot of the, you know, it does take a

A lot, you know, you get done with the Mexican-American War. Yeah, everything is out west because of Western expansion. So they've got a lot of these armies and stuff and companies that are out west. And, you know, it's a lot dealing with the Native Americans and protection for these folks that are moving west with Western expansion. If you're looking at the aspects of the size of the army and the comparison of Pearl Harbor, even Abraham Lincoln, is kind of looking like, I mean, he's wanting them to bombard Fort Sumner. Because now that's going to give him northern buy-in. Like, you know what I mean?

So he had a little bit of that. He wanted that, it's not a false flag attack, but he wanted it to get attacked so he could use it as some propaganda to start getting some troops masked up. Right, because, you know, I kind of look at it as if, okay, you've got all these states and they decide that they're just going to secede from the union. So we're all, so South Carolina, Alabama,

Mississippi, Georgia, you know, Virginia, they're all going to pop smoke. And as the president of United States, you're like, well, we're going to stand up an army and we're going to go down there and we're going to bring them back into the union. And people are like, well, they haven't really done anything. Meanwhile, some dude in New Hampshire is like, bro, I'm not going anywhere.

What are you talking about? They want to leave? I'm up here. I got work to do. Yeah. You know what I mean? And they haven't really done anything. They're just talking right now. You know what I mean? So it's more like, oh, the states, they're just saying that. They're not really going to leave. But they are.

They're like leaving, but no shots have been fired yet. So it's almost like the same thing before we can, you know, even when you look at the Mexican-American War, I mean, they sent Zachary Taylor down there to kind of monkey around the Rio Grande. They pop a couple of shots. They send a memo back up, which was, you know, up to D.C. Let the President of the United States, hey, man, we're under fire. Go to Congress, declare war. Boom, we're in the Mexican-American War.

So somebody's got to pull the trigger here. You know what I mean? If, you know, like, obviously there was problems that were known prior to September 11th, that there was bad people. You know what I mean? That's probably a fair thing to say that in the United States, we knew that there were individuals outside the United States that wanted to cause harm. But as the United States, we didn't just go over.

there and just, you know, raise an army and invade their country. They, they, they've just done a lot of talk. You know what I mean? And they haven't really threatened American soil yet. So as the president, you kind of got to get some buy-in. So as soon as, you know, the old man pulls the lanyard, you know what I mean? Dude, we just got northern buy-in because they're like, wait a minute, They just bombarded American soldiers at a federal fort in the harbor of Charles to South Carolina. Yeah, we're done with this little confederacy thing. You guys think you're going to plan up up there. So now we're in.

So you can see that, you know, as Lincoln being the president of the United States, now when he goes to his northern folks and he's looking for a raising of arms to come join into this fight, he's going to get a lot more by it. Right. So, so that's basically what's happening. So, you know, Lincoln, you know what I mean? is, yeah, Sumpner is his, that's his 9-11. Now, he's, like you said, like a 90 day. Okay, it's going to take 90 days. We're going to go down there. We're going to kick the shit out of some people. It's all going to be good. We'll come back home. So their primary initial raising of troops is like National Guard guys, right? Bringing guys on for like a 90-day enlistment type thing.

Yeah, you know what I mean? Because, you know, the whole, you know what I mean, the militia that, you know, and it has been in existence, hell, it's still in existence today. You know what I mean? You're going to stand at the right to bear arms, you know what I mean, was literally like meant something back then, meaning, yeah, okay, you got the rifle hanging over top of the fireplace and you use it during hunting season. But if there's a call to arms, you're a part of the militia.

everybody's from the same little hometown and you're going to stand up and you're going to join in with the company and then that company's got a regiment in the states and they're going to send these folks down south to kind of quell this insurgency that's kind of taking place. So yeah, I mean, 90 days max, you know what I mean? But then you've got to look at like moving bodies. How do you move them? It's either by water or it's by rail or they're going to walk. and then they got to get their stuff.

And then you've got to like have stuff to supply them because you're going to have to feed them. You're going to have to clothe them. So, you know, it's a lot more, you know what I mean? When you kind of look at the aspects of, hey, we're going to stand up an army, you know, even a small army. And then you have to look at it as like you had said earlier, like the dude in New Hampshire. He's like, dude, I got a job.

Like, you know what I mean? I run a gym in SoCal, man. I got to be at work tomorrow. You know what I mean? I got like nine kids at home. Like, you know what I'm just going to pop smoke. We're going to go down there.

But then again, you also, you got to look at it on the aspect of like the 9-11 of like, I mean, you remember the recruiting offices. You know, in the United States military after I, we were not having a recruiting problem.

No. Like in Tim Kennedy, he was like, he went down to the recruiting officer, September 12th and like the line was around the block, you know, and that's just one example. And that's in California,

right? Like, it was on. Yeah, and you remember like all the guys that like, because you and I served in the same time frame of like all the guys that came in like and so they missed Desert Storm and then there's like this dry spell. You know what I mean? I mean, there's. Yeah, there's like these little kind of hot pocket things that are kind of happening around the world. But if you're not on a specific unit and a specific team at a specific time, you're just going to miss it.

And, you know, so now you've got these guys that are like, well, it doesn't look like anything's going to happen in the next four years. I'm going to get out and I'm going to go back home, you know, go to college or just get a job. And I'm kind of done with the military thing. And then bam, 9-11 hits. And then these guys are like, dude, I want back in. You know what I mean? So now that's even a problem. It's like, dude, I got skill sets.

Okay, well, you left as a sergeant. You know what I mean? We can't break. Dude, I don't care if you bring me back as a private rifleman. You know what I mean? I just want to be on the big bird that's going to cross the pond. And we're going to bring the wood to these people that, that, that did these events in New York and the fields in Pennsylvania and to the Pentagon.

So I could imagine, you know, back then when the word got out, you know what I mean, of looking at the aspects of they just bombed, you know what I mean, a federal installation. That's the same as if it would happen today. I mean, there would be a call to arms. The President of the United States is no matter who the president is. like you're going to get backed by the American people. They're going to back you at this event. This is unjust.

So, yeah, when we left off the last time and then you look at those, you know, the totals that are there. So, you know, and I wouldn't even, I think that, you know, you and I, we're using the references of the National Guard, but these guys aren't even at that level. Like, these are just like novice. Novice guy, you know, they just come out and, you know, it's kind of cool to be, it's a drinking club. It's like a volunteer fire department. You know what I mean? Like, it's a cool place to hang out. But, you know what I mean?

We're really not going to go to war. It's just fun to go. And, you know, I get away from the wife and the kids for a couple of days. And, you know what I mean? And so I'm going to come out. Plus, you could imagine, you know, if you think this is going to be like a quickie, like you don't want to be the only guy that hung back. You know what I mean?

Like when everybody's flying the flags and stuff and they're like, what's, what's, where's Fred? Yeah, where's Fred? You know, and he's trying, it's kind of like, you know, one of my favorite movies is Old Yeller. I don't know if you ever, you ever saw the movie. But, you know, Old Yeller, when that one dude decides that he's going to hang back to kind of take care of the women folk and the farm. Everybody's kind of looking at that guy like, really, dude. And even the women are looking at him like, dude, we're good. You can go.

But he doesn't want to go. You know what I mean? So he's going to make it seem like he needs. to stay back. Man, nothing will ever beat the freaking World War I in England where if a guy was like a military aged male and he wasn't, and he wasn't in a freaking uniform, the women would give him a white flower. That was like the coward.

Yeah. That's how you peer pressure your countrymen into going and getting it on. That's World War I, right? This is where you know, like, your chances of survival are minimal if you're going to go over the on over the top over there. But that's, you know, you don't even necessarily need that. And the peer pressure is going to come. Well, it's like, I mean, you even, when you read the, the letter that was read prior

to the Battle of Shiloh, but I said, that's exactly World War I. I mean, when you go back through and you read, you know, what he's calling out of the, the women, you know what I mean, of who you're defending and who you're standing up for. I mean, he's, he's calling him out. like, you know, why you're here and who you represent. That speech that's written out prior to that is, is, that's a, that's a pretty good one. So, so the North kind of put, is putting it together. And they're probably of the mind that, you know, we're going to kind of get this done pretty quick.

One of the first larger battles, the first battle of Manassas, which is, is in Manassas, Virginia. The union calls us the battle of bull run. The union thinks this is going to be a pretty easy victory for them rolling down there. It doesn't work out that way. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, you know, the Manassas is like a hop, skip and a jump just south of D.C. I mean, you cross over the Potomac. You come down.

The Manassas Battlefield Park, beautiful part of Virginia that's in there. That same guy that we kind of talked about before with Beauregard and Anderson down there. So now Beauregard is up in Virginia. So Beauregard was the guy that was commanding the Confederate troops at Fort Sumter during that initial attack. So now this guy, Beauregard, who had just attacked his professor, his professor at West Point, now he's up at Manassas and who's he fighting against up there? Got McDowell. Who's one of his classmates? Yeah, they're classmates together.

You know what I mean? That would be like me going against some of my classmates of 2005. You know what I mean? It's just unimaginable. Now you've got these two folks. And a lot of the folks back then, you know, in some of the readings when you look at the battle of it taking place, but being novice, so you've got this voluntary force of a bunch of folks that are kind of coming in. And it's not the professional military that we kind of have of today.

You know what I mean? So now you've got like a slim picking of officers. Well, a lot of the officers that resign their commission after the Mexican-American war, now are all trying to get back in. So, you know, so before the battle on both sides of the fence, there, you know, of course, you know, you're a West Point grad, you know, coming in. that that's going to weigh heavy on selection of officers. And then you kind of look at him of like, okay, well, what did the guy do in the Mexican America War?

Okay, he was a young officer. So now you're kind of like taking like a young Marine Lieutenant or Lieutenant J.G. in the Navy. Now we're going to make him a general. Okay. So the last time you were in charge of like 30 people, now we're going to put you in charge of like a couple of thousand people to the upwards of. You've got divisions, you've got brigades, you've got, you know, a regiment, you know, a regiment is set out to be somewhere around like a thousand.

You know what I mean? If you've got a thousand folks that are in there and you've got brigades, you've got the division, and then you've got core, and then you've got like an army. You know what I mean? So when you're looking at like an army, you know, I mean, it could be 60,000 people. Well, when you look at some of these guys, they haven't been in charge for 60,000 people. I mean, you know what I mean? So like you said before, like this is a company that is growing at an extreme rate. And they're coming from all over, both the north and the south.

I mean, you've got folks, just like we had said earlier, that they've never left their state before. So you got folks coming as far as, you know what I mean, from Mississippi and Alabama that are heading up into Virginia. You got folks from Connecticut. You got Maine. You got Wisconsin. I mean, you got Ohio. And these folks are trying to make their way into the. the Capitol. And then you've got a lot of these guys that are coming in that are looking for

positions. And a lot of them are immediately coming in. And of course, they want to be a general officer. Like, why not just, you know, if you're going to go, go big. You know what I mean? What do you, you, okay, you were a lieutenant, JD. Now you want to be a general. Yep, that's right, man. Make me a general. And it's also because of, you know, if you're thinking that the war is going to be short. Now you got a guy that you had spoke on the last one when you talked about Sherman down at LSU. You know, well, Sherman's down there. Well, Sherman's got a different vision of this 90-day war kind of thing. I mean, even Winfield Scott, you know what I mean, thought that it would take, you know, what was it like over 60,000 people, you know what I mean, to be able to stand up. I mean,

that's a lot of people to come in. And he thought it was going to take a couple of years. Yeah, it's like five times bigger than what they had in 1860. Yeah, I mean, so he's going to increase the size by at least five times. And he thinks it's going to even take a couple of years. So this is, you know, your senior memory. I mean, if you're looking out of like folks with military experience in the United States at that time, like Winfield Scott's the guy. You know what I mean? Zachary Taylor, him, they were both down the Mexican-American War.

But, you know, Winfield Scott's the guy. He stayed a professional soldier, very well respected in the administration. but then when you look at the folks that are that are going to come in for this first battle, they even talked of like, you know, like local folks from D.C., like getting in their carriages and stuff and like following the Army down because they want to go spectate. Let's go watch. Yeah, like this is the state fair. Like, you know what I mean?

We're going to go watch. And it's just going to be, the union's going to get routed. And then they're going to get pushed back into D.C. and that's not going to look well, you know, for the president or for the union. And because you're looking at recruiting aspects of it, I mean, how is it looking on the Confederacy side? Because they're going to move the capital of the Confederacy out of Montgomery, and they're going to move it into Richmond, Virginia. And when you move it up into Richmond, Virginia, I mean, the distance between, you know,

I live like Smack dab, Spotsylvania, Virginia, Fredericksburg is like literally, in the middle between D.C. and Richmond. So now you've got these two capitals that are literally, you know what I mean, a hop, skipping a jump from each other. And the battle is going to take place just north of Fredericksburg. So it's going to be like in between the Rappahannock River and where the Potomac River is, like right up in there of that Acaquan, Fairfaxi kind of area. So that's the area we're talking about.

and the union is going to get defeated in the first battle of monasis or bull run of how you're looking at it so the union kind of realized it's like okay we're going to need more people like okay okay and what's interesting we talked about this a little bit on the last one you got baltimore who is you know obviously in maryland which was which is a which is a little bit of the last one you know slave state was a slave state before they joined the union or stay with the union but as the union is trying to ship people down to fight Baltimore is like trying to stop it from happening oh yeah i mean like rioting they're going to come and you know so they got you so here you are you know you're you're riding on a on a rail car you're all excited you're coming from road island connecticut new york

you name it and then you get down to baltimore and like those people aren't happy out there that we're coming through. So they're trying to stop the progress. You know what I mean? Talk about bringing friction in. You know, you're learning that you've got to get people and a lot of people. And you've got to start standing up armies that are going to have to deal with this insurgency that's taking over in the Confederacy. And so these people are coming in.

So, yeah, the folks in Baltimore, like Maryland, it is a slave state. and it's a split state. And you've got to look at it as the people in Baltimore are looking like their livelihoods are going to be affected. Like if this gets abolished, like we're going to have to start making another plan because now we've got to like, what are we going to start paying people? You know what I mean? Like, what do you mean?

I can't have slavery. I can't just work them. I can't own these. I mean, so this is a huge shift to a lot of folks in the United States. I mean, not that it's even close. to comparison, but like you and I were both working at the same time, and we were getting ready for Gettysburg, and we have a pandemic hit, and we got to go like online. I mean, that was a huge shift in America. I mean, it was a new way of thinking. So this is something that's a huge

way that's being pushed by the union. And Baltimore is giving resistance. So now they're going to start moving some of the troops through at night. I mean, now it's got to be timed. And, you know, I always kind of look back at it as, okay, so here you are, you know, you think you're working in. It's like when George Washington decided that, hey, we're going to stand up a continental army, we're going to go against, you know, like the crown in England, but you still have loyalists that are in and amongst you, living next door to you, you know what I mean? So now you've got these folks that, you know, you're in Maryland, you're in Pennsylvania. well, you've got southern sympathizers that are living amongst you.

So anything they can do to disrupt that machine as well. And then you've got, you know, folks that, okay, who's going to run these armies? And as they come in, and of course, they're all kind of jockey in for general officers. The one that I'll bring up just because I think is super cool is, you know, when you talked about Sherman. So Sherman comes in because he's a West Pointer. He fought in the Mexican-American War, and everybody's going in straight for general.

They want that. And Sherman comes out, and they're like, hey, dude, would you get? He's like, yeah, I'm a colonel. They're like, dude, man, you could have, like, easily gotten general. He goes, I'll earn general. Check. You know what I mean? Sherman's a different, you know, of course then everybody, you know,

they're going to call him crazy, of course, because he's not fit in the mold as everybody else. You know, he's making those kind of statements down at modern day LSU. He's speaking truth. I mean, he has a vision and sees what takes place. So Sherman's a different kind of guy. He's got an elevated view of an elevated view of what's going on for sure. Yeah, for sure.

So as these troops are now kind of moving into position throughout from the north, towards the south. You know, you got, you got skirmishes happening. You got, you know, people running into union troops. You got resistance. Kind of like chance contacts going on. Cavalry will be getting into engagements, you know, as they're out doing scout, they'll get some resistance.

And then you get to the Battle of Seven Pines. This is May 31st to June 1, 1862. General McClellan. called little he's popular little mac why does everybody like general mcclellan uh well you know mcclellan uh calling him little mac so he he gets uh he gets uh you know general officer and he's going to be the uh the the commander of the army of the potomac uh you know when you look at the army of the potomac it's right there in virginia the potomac river um if you look at like different armies or different organizations. The Army of the Potomac is the 100% man. They get the best gear and equipment.

You know what I mean? They're like varsity. They're getting all this stuff. You know what I mean? The guys that are standing up armies out west, they're JV. You know what I mean? They're, you know, they're not getting the attention because he's right there with the Capitol. I mean, he's right there with the president. He's got Winfield Scott. I mean, he's in the mix. And, you know, when you look at Little Mac, the interesting thing about McClellan when he becomes the Army commander of the Potomac, of course, he's got to come up with a plan. And McClellan, one, if you kind of look at it, McClellan was a status quo guy. He was one of those guys that kind of believed of, hey, dude, just let them do what they've been doing. Like, you know what I mean? Which,

yeah, and that's an interesting, you know, even we were talking about people in Baltimore, status quo was a thing like there's not too many people in America right now you say hey are you conservative or are you liberal there's not too many people say hey I kind of like it's okay the way it is you know the conservatives are saying we got to bring it back to this liberals is we got to change that a legitimate kind of political viewpoint at this time period was like hey let's just keep it what we got just hold what you got just status quo and so you get these people that are status quo and and little mac being one of them hey really really Real quick, Army of the Potomac, this is just a naming convention that we need to cover right now because it can get confusing.

The Union armies are named after rivers. That's their naming convention. So you're going to hear a bunch of these different armies and sometimes it can be confusing because you got rivers in America that are called things like the Mississippi and call things like the Tennessee River. So it can get real confusing real quick. What are the Confederate armies named after? Like the, you know, the Army of Northern Virginia, the Army of Mississippi, meaning like of, not the. So it's going to get a little confusing if you don't pay attention to that,

but just remember that the Northern armies are named after rivers. So Army the Potomac. So General McClellan, he's, I cut you off when you were saying that. He's kind of a status quo guy. not looking to be super dynamic. No. Not at all. And I think with him, he's got political views.

I mean, he ends up running for president in 64. You know, I mean, a lot of these guys, you know, I guess I should use the term with them. You know what I mean? If you make me a general officer or whiffam is, is what's in it for me after the thing. So a lot of these guys are coming with a little bit of an agenda of like, okay, yeah, hey, If I join up, one, you know, it's this civil war that takes place. I'm a general officer. If I serve with distinction, you know what I mean?

I might gain something out of it, you know, in the end. And I would say that that plays a bigger part on the union side than it does on the Confederate side. Like the Confederate generals that are down there, they just want to be left alone and let us run our own cut. We're done with this United States. with the union. We're creating our own country and we just want you guys to just leave us alone and let us just keep doing what we're doing kind of a thing. So there's like there's, you know, I mean, when Jefferson Davis is unanimously picked to be the president of the Confederacy, it's not like they didn't even have it. Like there's no election. Like, you know, does Robert

Lee's like, man, I think that, you know, if I serve with distinction, I'll be president of the Confederacy. Like there's nobody kind of jockeying to get rid of Davis. They just want, you. They just want to, hey man, we're just, you know, we're going to form these states in the Confederacy with Davis and we're going to keep running how we're running. We don't need this big federal government thing kind of telling us how we're going to run and how our states are going to be ran. We're all going to be a coalition of states and we're going to run out the way we see fit. So when McClellan gets these aspects, you know, and if you look at the map, like I said, again, like back during the Civil War, anytime we kind of look at a general officer, there's a

lot of folks, there's statements that are made that amateur study tactics, professional study logistics, especially at that level, because you logistically have to move 120,000 people and all their stuff. So, you know, back then, you're either going to walk them, you're going to put them on a train, or you're going to put them on a boat. And we already talked about, you know, so you got the distance that's coming in. So after the first battle of Manassas, you've got this McClellan, you know, Tagurit, McGow's out. You know what I mean? And he's going to take this formed army of the Potomac, and he's got a briefest plan to the boss.

So he's going to do what he's going to do, a peninsula campaign, which that's where we get to the seven pines down there. So the peninsula, you know, Norfolk, because you either got two choices. You either get on the telegraph road, which is modern day route one that runs from D.C. Of course, now we got 95. So it's basically like if you put it in today's terms, we're going to hop on 95 and in two hours, we're going to be in Richmond. So we can either go over by land or we can just swooping it around, put everybody on a boats. We can float them down the Potomac, out into the bay, and come right. I mean, Norfolk, you know, phenomenal naval base.

and then just come right up the peninsula. So the distance. And then you've got to look at like, okay, logistically, how am I going to support these folks? You know what I mean? Well, logistically? Yeah, I mean, we've got a Navy. You can just logistically support by water.

You know what I mean? It's easily supported logistically. If you look at it on the other aspects, the riverways when you get down like to the Rappahannock River, if we talk about like Fredericksburg, if you blow the rail line, which the rail line are blown in Fredericksburg, you know what I mean? Now you're going to have to offload everything.

It's logistically going to be a lot harder moving that much stuff. I mean, if you look at us even today in the military, I mean, we move a lot by naval. We can move cities worth of stuff. So he's going to make this decision. He's going to go down and he's going to fight the peninsula campaign. This is McClellan. McClellan. Yeah, Little Mac.

McClellan says, all right, I'm going to go fight this peninsula campaign. Yep. I'm going to put all the guys, bunch of guys, put them on boats. we're going to float down, we're going to hop off, we're going to fight this Peninsula campaign, and it's a short A to B distance, right up, cross over the Chick-a-Hominy, and bam, man, we're up the James, and we are in Richmond.

We'll overthrow the Capitol. Easy-peasy. War's over, man. You know what I mean? We just took the Capitol. Well, you know, there's a problem. The Confederates don't want to give it up that easy. So, you know, they get down there,

and then they get into the distinctive battle of the seven-pomines. lines. That is also when, you know, so Lee at that time, at the beginning of the war, Lee is an advisor. He's a military advisor to Jefferson Davis. He's not a combatant commander at the time. Due to attrition, general officer, another Johnson, goes down. His number two guy, X.O. is Gustavus W. Smith, which, of course, everybody remembers old Gustavus. He was in command for about 24 hours because, you know, as soon as Davis is like, hey, dude, what are you going to do? He's like, oh, I'm going to need more resources. Yeah, we don't have any more resources. That's not a plan. You know what I mean? Bobby, you're in. And Robert E. Lee steps on the field

to take command of the Army of Northern Virginia. He had already established a relationship with Jackson, Stonewall Jackson. And he's going to, Stonewall Jackson, you know, so he's got this threat coming in on Peninsula. So, of course, he's going to take this guy. And, you know, he's going to take this guy. when you have a nickname like Stonewall, you know what I mean? That's like a pretty good one to get. You know what I mean? So they're going to send Jackson and Robert Lee's going to send him up into the Valley. So he's going to do, there's the Valley campaign that kind of goes on. Well, you know, Lincoln's number one worry is like D.C., protecting Baltimore, D.C. I mean, it's huge protection of D.C. Well, you get Jackson up there running around. You know what I mean?

Nothing safe. Nothing safe with Jackson. and he's proven it because he's sending other armies out there to try to, you know, banks and some of these guys are trying to intercept Jackson. And he's just, Jackson's foot mobility of infantry is just unmatched in the valley. It's just, it's amazing what Jackson's doing out there. The amount of movement, you know, with Jackson, and he's winning. So the morale of underneath Stonewall Jackson is very high. because everybody wants to play for a winning team.

I mean, Jackson's becoming very popular. And, you know, just a little back history a little bit. You know, so Jackson, he was a professor. He taught at the Virginia Military Institute prior to the war. And as an instructor, like, you know, today, like, you know, you got kids. I got kids, they go to college and stuff. They got that rate my professor.com stuff, you know, and the kids can, like, take a course, and JD's the course,

and then they can go on and tell J.D., oh, he sucked. I didn't like him. He was this bad. If they had Rapemyprofessor.com at VMI, Jackson would have been the most hated professor at VMI. And why is that? He just wasn't very well-liked. He was, I mean, nothing wrong with it.

He was Presbyterian, extremely religious. You know, he very strict. And I think because of some of his upbringing, he didn't, he kept a lot of information close hold. He didn't trust a lot of other people. And, you know, needless to say, that could be from a lot of the peer kind of peer leadership. You know what I mean?

If he's not one of the guys that is not partaking in the, you know, the barbecues on the weekend, you know what I mean? Sundays, he's devoted to church, family, that kind of stuff. So, you know, he's one of those guys that just doesn't fit in with the cool club kids, you know what I mean, that are doing stupid stuff. But when Stonewall shows up, he's going to go to work. And when he goes to work, he's, you know, you're going to, if you're working for Stonewall Jackson, you know you're going to get up in the morning, you're going to get on the road,

you're going to face to the right, you're going to hike anywhere between 20 to 25 miles, there's going to be a gunfight at the end. And he's going to bring the wood. And he's going to win. And then you're going to hike back out. I mean, there's a, that valley campaign of the movements that that guy's doing and around the valley, you know what I mean? Like we had talked, you know, kind of before the terrain of, you know,

looking at some of the hills and the Shenandoah Valley area. It's, and these guys are like no shoes. You know what I mean? Like, they're doing some serious movements. And they got their home on their back. and they're moving and around and they're winning. And so Lee is going to send Jackson up in the valley because he knows that if Jackson goes up

and then the word's going to get out to Abraham Lincoln, he's going to be like, well, okay, Stonewall's in the valley. Is he coming up the valley? And is he going to make a threat towards Washington, D.C.? So if I'm the commander in chief, and you're asking for more resources down there, Because one thing McClellan was like really good at was exaggerating the numbers. Like that dude, you know what I mean?

There would be, you know, Robert E. Lee would have 55,000 folks. Oh, he's got 110. I mean, he's going to exploit the numbers just insane. So he's telling small lies or in some cases probably big lies in order to get more resources. Yeah. Yeah. This is McClellan. Yeah, this is McClellan.

So McClellan, you know, gets word from his cavalry, his scouts that there's whatever, 50,000 people he's going to tell his boss there's 100,000. Oh, yeah. And this isn't, and this is, this is his pattern. This is his pattern. You know what I mean? Because then that's going to delay anything that he's going to have to do. Like, I mean, you know, the president, you know, Winfield Scott, these guys are like, dude,

when are you going to attack? Well, I mean, he's just like slow rolling, you know, the commander in chief because he keeps exact, you know, he's got that guy Pinkerton, you know, private kind of, you know, Intel guy. And, of course, you know, if you hire me, I'm going to tell, you know, I'm going to tell you what you want to hear. Oh, there's a shitload up there. Oh, yeah.

I mean, we thought it was 50,000. I heard this guy's coming from here and this guy's coming from up there. So they're going to inflate the numbers to try to get more resources. And you could see it, even in the writings and in the books of his communications with his wife. McClellan is a little Napoleon. He thinks very highly of himself. And when you look at it of McClellan and why are the troops liking? Because he's keeping them alive because they're not doing anything.

And McClellan is not one as a commander to put his personal self at risk. You know what I mean? Like he's not going to put himself out there. And that's a pattern. You know what I mean? He's going to stay in the rear. He's not going to go out. You know what I mean?

He's not going to, you know, so he's not seen, you know, during battle that takes place out there. And so now he's going to go up against. And the problem is everybody goes to West Point and everybody kind of knows everybody. And everybody was kind of down in the Mexican-American War. So everybody kind of knows the character of each one of these individuals. And then now you're going to bring in this guy, Bobby Lee. And Robert E. Lee, you know, at the beginning, everybody's kind of thinking like, man, it's Robert E. Lee. Well, I mean, he had nicknames too.

You know, I mean, down in Cell Block with the privates and stuff sitting around, you know, they got this whole thing of like this digging in. Like, what's this digging in stuff? Like, what's this fortifications? What is it? That's not manly. That's not how we fight. So Robert E. Lee is oftentimes pushing set up defensive positions, get out your shovels, dig in. We're going to hold what we got right now, which is in the view of the troops, the front-line troops, cowardly.

Yeah, I mean, they call him the king of spades. As in spade shovel. Yeah, like a spade the shovel, not like a cool spake. Didn't they call him Granny, too? Oh, yeah, Granny Lee. because you know which you know we've talked about this before when you know just you and I up at at Gettysburg you know I mean Lee's in his 50s

well of course yeah when I was a kid at eight years old the first time I went to you know VMI and I'm seeing Robert E. later I'm like man that dude was old now I sit across the table from you I'm like that dude's in the prime his life man but to the young soldiers you know what I mean he's this old man so they were calling him Granny Lee he's not the the Robert E. Lee that everybody's kind of thinks about, you know, towards, you know, after the war and what he is. He's not as prominent. I would probably put Stonewall Jackson coming in early in the war and all the way up to 63 is probably becoming the most, he is the most popular general in the

Confederacy, Stonewall. I mean, just because he's making the paper, he's making his name, but they're going to bring in Robert E. Lee. And Robert E. Lee, you know, is going to, he's going to defeat and push back the Army of the Potomac to where now he's going to put a dilemma on McClellan. So McClellan is going to have to make a decision of like, man, we're not going to be able to take Richmond. So do I just bring in the boats and put everybody back and go on back up to the, you know, up the Potomac? and regroup and kind of go with this again. And you could only imagine, like, the amount of resources and the amount of information that he's pushing up to D.C.,

that, you know, the President of the United States and these guys up in D.C. are not happy with what they're kind of getting down there on the Peninsula campaign. But, you know, relieving a general officer, pulling from his command is going to be, I mean, that's a difficult decision, because these guys are very well connected politically as well. So as they pull back off the peninsula,

we end up getting the second battle of Bull Run, Battle of Manassas. And they're going to bring in other commanders that are going to come in. And at the second battle, McClellan's going to slow roll. And he's getting orders to release folks up there. to take part in the battle, and he's going to slow roll the other commanders, almost kind of like sending a message of like...

So he doesn't provide support with his team to the other team that's in a pitched battle. Right. He decides, no, I'm not going to send you any support. Or, oh, yeah, okay, I'll get it started. They'll be there tomorrow or whatever. He slow rolls the execution, and they end up getting a beat again. Yep, they end up getting beat again.

and then, you know, now they're going to put Lincoln into a predicament to where they're going to put him back in command. They're going to combine those armies there and bring them all underneath McClellan. There's a lot of turmoil that's going on amongst the officers. You know, the book that we have laying near on the table, the one of Lincoln's lieutenants, it's a great read into the insights of the officers, the general officers in the Army of the Potomacians. and what Lincoln is having to deal with with some of these guys. Drama. Yeah, drama.

Like, literally, it's the housewives of the Army of the Potomac, like literally. Like, you know what I mean? Like, they could have a whole episode of this stuff just going on of just the drama that's going on in and around the general officers. Yeah, you know, there's when I'm trying to help companies hire people, you know, one of the things I advise them to do if it's possible for them to do it is put them in this put them in the situation that they're going to be working in so can you hire them as a contractor for 90 days and you figure out what they're like even when people say who's going to make it

through seal training well you go the only way to figure out who's going to make it through seal training is by putting them in some kind of similar situation you know some kind of similar situation that is very similar to seal training and then you might have an indication so that's kind of what we got going on here it's not like these many of these senior officers they haven't gone through the ranks. And like you said, they haven't led a platoon and then led a company and then been a battalion XO and then been a battalion commander and then gone up through the chain to where they've proven themselves.

So you're throwing these guys into positions where it's like, hey, they might not be good at this job. And they don't have any time to learn it. So you're going to kind of get what you get. And there's going to be drama. Yeah, they're learning it on the fly. know, run around. And then, you know, because even though you've got to like these West Point guys, well, you still got to have like regimental commanders and stuff. And you're still standing

these folks up that are all coming from the same hometowns. You know what I mean? So they're all joining together, the joining of arms. And then kind of at the beginning, it's kind of like, you know, if we're here in, you know, in San Diego County and everybody's like, yeah, hey, we got a thousand folks there. Well, who should be the colonel? Well, let's take a vote, man. You know what I mean? I think Echo should be the colonel. Okay, he's the colon. Now, what military background? You know what I mean?

Like, you know, you're just a good guy. And, of course, people are just wanting to do the right thing. But, you know, at that level, yeah, that's a huge jump. You know what I mean? Of being in charge of that many folks. So, yeah, they're trying to figure it out on the fly. And then, of course, people have favorites. You know what I mean?

So you got, you try to look out for your favorites of who the guys are. This is the legit good old boy network on both sides, right? Yeah, so, I mean, it is very difficult. But, you know, so they push them off the Battle of Seven Pines. There's also, you know, other events that are taking place out west. You know what I mean? So the Battle of P Ridge out in Arkansas up in the Ozart. takes place in the early parts of March of 1862.

And it's out of the trans, kind of the Trans-Mississippi kind of area that's out there. And, you know, if you look at it in the Midwest with that expansion kind of thing, you know what I mean? St. Louis, I mean, that's a prominent city at the time to be able to have control over that. And then, you know, it's the playing end of that, the Trans-Mississippi, the Battle of P.

Ridge, some of us can refer to it as the Gettysburg of the West, where you have General Curtis, he's running with the Union, and he got Van Dorn out at the Battle of Pea Ridge. With inside of the battle that takes place out there, after this battle, it basically eliminates that entire region of the United States throughout the Civil War and keeps in control of the union within side of that region. One of the most interesting things about the battle of Pea Ridge that took place out there is the Confederacy were able to go over to the Indian territory in Oklahoma, and they stood up a couple of regiments of Cherokee to come fight for the Confederacy, which a lot of folks don't

know. You know what I mean? I couldn't imagine the recruiting spin that was going on over there. Obviously, they're probably still a little bit upset with the whole Indian removal thing and the trail of tears that got them out there. So they convinced and stand up a couple of these regiments of Native Americans to come fight for the Confederacy. And it's not really recorded or thought, but I wonder if they were like, yeah, hey, dude,

you guys come fight with us, man? We'll give you North Georgia back. You know what I mean? We'll move you back in. The problem is, after the battle of Pea Ridge, they end up finding this, like, a small detachment of union soldiers that are killed and scout. And they kind of have to go to the Cherokee like, hey, dude, that's great. You guys are coming out. Plus, they didn't really conform to the whole, like, instant obedience to order, like, the whole military thing.

You know what I mean? They kind of fight different. Like, you know what I mean? we kind of do what we want to do. And what do you mean? There's no scalping, you know what I mean? So they sent them back, you know, but there was actually Native Americans that fought for the Confederacy against the United States of America.

But when they, you know, the whole scalping thing kind of started taking place. And there was no more Confederate really threat in that trans-Mississippi area after the Battle of P. Ridge held in by General Curtis. And then that secured St. Louis, which was a, that was a huge key victory. Like if you're looking at strategy, you know, strategically, that battle of P. Ridge was huge for the union. So thinking of strategy, talk to us about the Anaconda plan. This is Winfield Scots, who's the northern commander of the armies. What's his plan overall? on how to beat the Confederate States?

Yeah, so Winfield Scott's going to come up with, it gets tagged the Anaconda Plan. And you look at the Anaconda, you know, earlier we talked about like being in Panama and seeing an Anticona, waterborne snake, it's a constrictor, like something I don't want to be caught in the water with, you know what I mean, especially that large of a snake. So, you know, you've got this insurgency.

If you call it, you know, an insurgency. of these Confederate states that are kind of down there. So he's going to have to kind of like throw a line around it. So, you know, he's going to anchor the tail of the Anaconda snake in Washington, D.C. And then the snake's going to run down the Potomac River. It's going to go into the Chesapeake Bay. It's going to run down and around Florida. It's going to come up the Gulf Coast and then into the Mississippi River.

And that's the head of the snake is coming from west to east. So they're going to cut off resources to the Confederacy with a naval blockade. And they're going to control the riverways with these armies. They're going to start sending armies with a Western theater campaign. So you've got the Army of the Ohio, the Army of the James, the Ohio, the Cumberland, the Army of the Tennessee, the Army of the Gulf, you know what I mean, the army of the Mississippi that are going to be, and then you've got the Army of the Potomac that's going to deal with this eastern kind of theater aspect. But when you look at the

Anaconda plan, with the head of the snake coming from the west, that's the focus of main effort. Like they've got to secure the West before they can start the constrictor of the snake to the confederacy. So, you know, for the metaphor, metaphors matter because they're memorable. So when you actually look at it on a strategic aspect of the anaconda plan, you can't even read or write. You can look at the cartoon. This is what we're doing. Yeah. Hey, this is what we're doing. Okay, I got it. You know, first thing we got to do is we got to control the waterways. And they're doing a pretty good job of it. So as you have some of it, you know, you've got the Trans Mississippi with the Battle of Pea Ridge. That's kind of secure.

We don't really know what we're doing over here on the East Coast with the Army of the Potomans. kind of thing. We've got a lot of drama going on. And then you're going to start sending these armies of the West down, you know, to start controlling these waterways of the Cumberland River, the Tennessee River, the Mississippi River. So you're going to put these, you know, these armies into motion. So you've got the Army of the Tennessee, you've got the Army of the Ohio, they're going to start making their way to start being the head of that snake. And that's what's going to get us into this first, like, big battle that you kind of talk about. Like, Shiloh is going to be the, it's going to be the first big show.

It's kind of like, you know, we've been looking at a little, not right. I hate to downgrade it of kind of like it's preseason. The other battles up to now are preseason a little bit. Yeah. Now we're going to get it. I mean, this is, this is going to be a big show. I mean, this is going to be the Battle of Shiloh out in the West. This is going to be a first of what they call.

I mean, even the book that you kind of read from, you know, called in hell before night. And the other attributes of seeing the elephant, this is going to be a baptism of fire that nobody has seen. Like we haven't seen at this scale of what's going to take place in Shiloh. And so it's Shiloh, but Shiloh, but Shiloh, is not really the decisive terrain here. The decisive terrain is south. of the town of Shiloh. It's a city. City's probably a strong word because I've been to

Corinth, Mississippi. Corinth, Mississippi is a little town, a relatively small town. But it's got multiple railways coming in, passing through it. So it's a strategic, it's a strategic town. And the Confederates want to protect it.

Because like you said, we got these big Western armies moving west. moving southwest to try and get control of the Mississippi and or end of the Tennessee River as well. So the Confederates know this. They know that the north is heading south. So what do the Confederates do? They move north. They push north above Corinth, Mississippi to stop the Union forces before they get to Corinth.

And they move, they get to a place called Shiloh. Shiloh, Tennessee is just like a little, is it even a town? What do you call it? Is it a town, I guess, Shiloh? I don't even know if it would get the term town. Like you said, I mean. It's an area, I guess. There's a church.

So there's a little Shiloh church. And then there's a landing area called Pittsburgh Landing, which is on the Tennessee River. and as Grant and his army pushed down, this is where they decide they're going to, they're going to pull in. They're going to pull in because again, they're looking at this metropolitan area, not so much, Corinth.

But it's a strategic area, like I said. So that's General Grant. And then you got another, another northern general, General Buell, who's leading the army of the army of the, the Ohio and what they're trying to do, they're both trying to get there. They're both trying to get to Corinth, Mississippi.

They're both pushing South. Grant gets there first. On the other side, who you got? You got Johnson and Beauregard. Beauregard's mobile, huh? That guy's getting all over the place, huh? Well, yeah, and, you know, when you, Beauregard, after, you know, at the beginning,

yeah, he's there at the beginning, but then, you know, it's, you start to notice that anybody that's sent to the Western theater is like what we call like the, the land of the misfit toys. You know what I mean? Like, you know, you've got. It's like it stationed in, and in Siberia, if you're in the Russian army. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, so a lot of, if you're going to shit can somebody, you send them west.

Now, like, when you look at like the guys like, you talk like you talk about Grant, you know what I mean Grant you know of coming up you know when you look at it of like man what was Ulysses S. Grant doing in 1860 you know the guy was a complete

pretty much a he was having a hard time at life at that point you know what I mean he had fought West Point guy fought in the Mexican American War got sent out to California you know what I mean

there's folks talking about you know a drinking problem that Grant has Of course, you know, Grant had lost a son. You know, so a lot of times when I, you know, I've never lost a child, but I'm pretty sure it's going to have a pretty big effect on me. And how I'm going to handle that. I, you know, I really don't know. So, you know, you got this guy Ulysses S. Grant that's showing promise, but he's selling firewood on the streets of St. Louis before the war breaks out to try to support his family. because he's just he's not really good in the civilian world like being a business guy he's just

not he's struggling you know what I mean which there's there's tons of people man that that struggle right and and but at least he's like he's selling firewood and stuff so when the war breaks out he's like I'm back in you know what I mean like so let's head out and let's see if I can of course but now you got your reputation you know what I mean so what's interesting is is like when we talked about Grant, you know, then we talked about Sherman. You know, we talked about Sherman earlier. You know, he's crazy. Grant's a drunk. You know, but the two of them kind of stick together. And it's like, you know, I mean, this dude ends up on a $50 bill. He's the president of the United States. He becomes the chief of all the Army. I mean, I hate to be a spoiler

alert of like Grant, but from a dude selling firewood on the streets to, to what he rose to, you know, perseverance comes to mind. Like, people might talk shit about him. He's going to show up and he's going come to work. But he's got a lot of struggles to deal with. He's never been in charge of like this many people. So, you know, Grant's going to make his way down and he's having some success. He's working with the naval Captain Foot. And they're actually working together Army and Navy, which is, you know, kind of odd. You know, you can bring in naval ships and bombard, you know what which is pretty cool. Naval gunfire, if you will, brings them in and grants the ground force, but he's using them as transportation. So, you know, between like Grant and foot, I think they're

working really well together. But then, you know, you talked about with Buell, so he's got, he's another army commander. So they're both, they're like peers. So neither one of them work with each other. And you know how that kind of works with peers? Sometimes it's like, you go to your peer for some support. And he's like, dude, I don't work for you. You know what I mean? Like, I, I got, got to get shit from the boss. Tell me what to do. So yeah, he is trailing Grant, but everybody's focused on the same mission. I mean, when you look at the overall arching strategy of Abraham Lincoln, it was Preserve the Union. So that's his message to everybody. The only thing we're going to do is preserve the union. So these guys, they're out moving, you know, they're learning along

the way. And you got Ulysses S. Grant. So they got, you know, and you've been to Kernith, I've been to current. You know, I think you probably had to do the same thing. You got to fly into Memphis and drive a couple hours over because there's just no easy way to get the current. But when you look at like the supply depots of railways and waterways and you're trying to supply these armies of thousands of people and you look at the Western theater of the, you know, the Tennessee River, the Cumberland River, the Ohio, and the Mississippi, where you kind of look at it as like, where are you going to store this stuff? So if you're going to bring it in by boat, so you've got you got Nashville, that's a big hub, you know, you got Memphis, that's a big hub. And then you've got like,

you know, where you go north to south. So, you know, current is like right at the very top of Mississippi, just right below that southeastern Tennessee kind of area. And it's just not an easy. place to get to. So if you're going to come in and you're going to strategically, one, you've got to get all your people there. So Grant's going to put them on a boat. They're going to float down the Tennessee River. And then you got to look for a landing. And of course, you don't want to land too close because you want to get everybody off the boat before, you know, any of the Confederates come. Because if you're just sitting on the boat, that's going to make it pretty easy for the Confederacy. So they're going to pick Pittsburgh landing. And even still to this day, like you said, I mean, there's nothing in shyly.

little church. That's it. I mean, like, I mean, I'm even trying to think in like modern day today, like there, there's nothing. I mean, there's a Hagee's Catfish Hotel like down, down the road a bit. And that's about it. Great catfish. But other than that, there's just nothing there. So he's going to bring his folks in and they're going to they're going to offload right there at Pittsburgh landing. And that landing, I mean, even if you and I, like, looking at it today, it's like, man, That's a, you know, insert and extract is usually the worst places to get hit. So, you know, coming in, so it's like one of those landings downriver, and then it's like, you know, the cliffs over where I'm staying. So it's like getting dropped off there, and then I've got this little straight up ahead.

So I'm already, there's high ground above Pittsburgh landing. You know what I mean? So getting folks off and then getting them up on the landing and then establishing a foothold is his first priority. and nothing against Ulysses S. Grant, like again, man, this is right at the beginning. But Grant's going to kind of go up there and there's not going to be a lot of order and discipline going on. It's kind of like, hey, guys, get off the boat. You know what I mean? They go up there and they set up camp, you know what I mean?

Because this is their first rodeo. I mean, they're having fun on the way down, riding on the boat ride. You know what I mean? They're coming in. They're like, oh, man, this is going to be an easy day. You know what I mean? So I think that their their expectations just like really aren't there. You know what I mean?

So they're all going to get. Of course, they don't know either. I mean, look at the last war they fought in. It was the Mexican-American War and we saw how that went. You know what I mean? It was we were pretty other than, you know, like the Battle of San Pascal, it took place out here with Carney and Pico kind of put the wood to him. And, you know, if it wasn't for, you know, that little guy kicked Carson,

that got him out of it when he stalked from out there all the way into the bay to link up with the Navy to get relief to come out to get them. So these guys are getting off the boat and there's not really a lot of order and discipline. So it's kind of like if I was going to describe it like what it looked like. It looked like a very unorganized yard save. So that's what they do. They're there. Now, meanwhile, on the other side, you got General Johnson and he's, you know, this is the guy that we kicked off this. This is the speech. You know, this guy is engaged, right?

And he tells his troops, you know, before the battle, tonight we will water our horses in the Tennessee River. Love it. Yeah. So this guy is ready to get it on. And, well, and they meet. And a great book and a great account of this is Company H. by Sam R. Watkins.

This guy is a Confederate soldier and he's got a great first person account to kind of explain what's going on and what this looks like this first day. So here we go. This was the first big battle in which our regiment had ever been engaged. I do not pretend to tell

of what command distinguished itself of heroes, of blood and wounds, of shrieks and groans. of brilliant charges of cannon captured etc. I was but a private soldier and if I happened to look to see if I could find anything out Eyes right guide center was the order Close up guide right halt forward right oblique left oblique hold forward guide center eyes right Dress up promptly in the rear steady double quick charge bayonets fire at will Is about all that a private

soldier ever knows a battle. And when I read that for the first time, that's just like horrifying, right? You're in this massive battle and you're just hearing orders. And we, you know, when you and I marched in, when I marched in Navy boot camp, when you marched in Marine Corp. And you learn how to guide right and you're kind of out of the corner of your eye. You're looking at the guy to the right of you to make sure you're staying even with them. You can't, It's hard to take that mentality and then you take it into like a combat situation where there's, you know, ball coming at you. Guys getting their legs blowing off. Horrifying.

And that's what this guy's dealing with. He says he can see the smoke rise and the flash of battle of the enemy's guns and he can hear the whistle of the mini and cannonballs. But he has got to load and shoot as hard as he can tear and ram cartridge. Or we'll soon find out like the Irishman who had been shooting. Lank cartridges when a ball happened to strike him and he hollowed out. Faith, Pat, and be jabbers. Them fellows are shooting bullets. But I nevertheless remember many things that came under my observation in this battle.

I remember a man by the name of Smith stepping deliberately out of the ranks and shooting his finger off to keep out of the fight. So you guys got he's documenting some cowardice. A guy shooting off his own finger so he doesn't have to fight. of another poor fellow who was accidentally shot and killed by the discharge of another person's gun and of others suddenly taken sick with colic. As we, I'm going to fast forward a little bit, as we advanced on the edge of battlefield, we saw a big fat colonel of the 23rd Tennessee Regiment badly wounded, whose name, if I remember correctly, was Matt Martin.

He said to us, give them goss, boys. That's right, my brave first Tennessee. Give them hail, Columbia. We halted but a moment, and I said, Colonel, where are you wounded? He answered in a deep, base voice. My son, I am wounded in the arm, in the leg, in the head, in the body, and in another place, which I have a delicacy in mentioning. That is what the old gallant, Colonel said. About noon, a courier dashed up and ordered us to go forward and support General Bragg's center.

We had to pass over the ground where children. troops had been fighting all day. I had heard and read of battlefields, seen pictures of battlefields, of horses and men, of cannon and wagons all jumbled together while the ground was strewn

with dead and dying and wounded, but I must confess that I never realized the pomp and circumstance of the thing called glorious war until I saw this. Men were lying in every conceivable position, the dead lying

with their eyes wide open, the wounded begging piteously for help, and some waving their hats and shouting for us to go forward. It all seemed to me a dream. I seemed to be in some sort of haze when sizz, sis, sis, the mini balls from the Yankee line began to whistle around our ears, and I thought of the Irishmen when he said, sure enough, those fellows are shooting bullets. Down we would drop first one fellow and then another,

either killed or wounded. When we were ordered to charge bayonets, I had been feeling mean all morning, as if I had stolen a sheep. But when the order to charge was given, I got happy. I felt happier than a fellow does when he professes religion

at a big Methodist camp meeting. I shouted. It was fun then. Everybody looked happy. We were crowding them. One more charge, their lines waver and break. They retreat in wild confusion. We were jubilant.

We were triumphant. Officers could not curb the men to keep them in line. Discharge after discharge was poured into the retreating line. The federal dead and wounded covered the ground. When, in the very midst of our victory, here comes an order to halt. What? Halt after today's victory? Sidney Johnson killed, General Gladden killed, and a host of generals and other brave men killed,

and the whole Yankee army in full retreat. These four letters, H-A-L-T. Oh, how harsh they did break upon our ears. The victory was complete, but the word halt turned victory into defeat. So it's mayhem out there. And like you said, you know, this is seeing the elephant. These guys are seeing this hardcore combat for the first time.

And as you can hear in that description from Watkins, you know, the Confederates dominate day one. They dominate. They push and they get the upper hand. They push Grant all the way back to Pittsburgh Landing. I mean, they push him back. He mentions Sam Watkins mentions that General Johnson's dead. So he had been wounded, hitting the femoral artery and bleeds out. And Beauregard, after this first day, so the first day, the, you know, the Union forces had pushed in from the Tennessee, but now they get pushed all the way back.

And Beauregard thinks they want and actually sends the message out to Jefferson. Jefferson Davis sends a message to Jefferson Davis saying, hey, we just won a big battle here. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's like, you know, it's basically going into halftime, and he's claiming victory. You know, one, I love the company H. Sam White, because it's a, it's a first account from a soldier. That's just a rifleman, you know what I mean? And in his perspective, and when he talks about, you know, like later on, we'll talk about Braxton Bragg. And I mean, that guy is a, he's a character within himself.

It's amazing. He got a base named after him. But, you know, they didn't call JD to ask about naming of bases. But, you know, when you look at it of Bragg, I mean, he's talking about, you know, those numerous assaults of what he came into behind. So, you know, Braxton Bragg, there was this, there's a section of the battle that's called the Hornets Nest. down there. And it's like it's, you know, if you could imagine like Pittsburgh landing's been there, you know, it's all farm country. I mean, you've been in that region before that's down there. So when folks are coming in, there's like these old, like farming roads and the farm field.

So if you could imagine just over time, you've got, you know, the wagons have been running these same little two track rails and they start to get like sunken down a little bit. So it just gives you just a little bit of that micro terrain defilade. And that's where, you know, Prentiss and his guys, he's going to put his division that's there. And I mean, Bragg's just going to, he's going to knock against that, that surface numerous times throughout the battle. Just frontal assault. Just frontal. I mean, just, yeah, okay, just, okay, you hit a, you know, you hit a, you know, you hit a surface. Why not try to find a gap? Like, where's the gap in the road? And he's going to, numerous times he's going to send them up there.

And they, of course, you know, you beat your head that many times against the wall and you just keep throwing resources. So that's what kind of Sam is seeing, just the carnage that's taking place. Like I said, I mean, nobody had seen this kind of, this kind of carnage on a battlefield. And this is day one. And yeah, and the Confederates are going to push them back, but at a cost. Like, they're going to take a huge cost for this. And again, you know, Johnson, when you look at Albert Sidney, there's a lot of folks, like when you go down there to Shiloh, they're like, what Janey mean?

A commander should never put himself at that kind of risk, that close. You know, but there's a point in time to where the commander's got to get out of the tent and the troops, he needs to be seen. And he's going to put himself at risk. And, yeah, I mean, he's going to take a shot and in the saddle. It's not going to unhorse him. He's basically just going to. But he never leaves him. the field, which kind of says something about Johnson, you know what I mean, of getting injured.

I mean, you got other folks that are looking to just, you know, get a scratch and they're out. Shoot the finger off. Yeah, shooting the finger off, all that kind of stuff. So Johnson knows that his place in battle, one, if you could imagine with, you know, you've got these novice folks that are out there. This is their first battle. And then they're going to overrun the union. And, you know, like I said earlier, like, you know, grants kind of running a yard sale.

up there. So these dudes are brewing up ramen, you know what I mean? They're cooking up some hard tack. They got a little bit of fat. And then these guys are going to overrun them and they're probably hungry and they're seeing all this free gear. You know what I mean? Like gear adrift is a gift. You know what I mean? Like if your name ain't on it, I'm taking it. So the Confederate troops push through overrun much of what the unions got set up and there's

just looting about to go down. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. They're looting. You know what I mean? It's like, man, that's a better rifle than the one I got. I'm taking that one. So they're kind of looting. And Johnson and them are actually trying to stop the looting because it's distracting from the battle. Like, okay, look, man, we got it, dude. Like, they got a lot of cool stuff, but let's keep, like, let's keep pushing them. And Johnson actually, you know, it's recorded, you know, they talk about Johnson. He ends up taking a 10 cup because he doesn't, you know, these guys are, they're just a bunch of privates, man. They really don't know what they're doing. You know, they're just out there following orders, man, and they're putting them into this first big battle. And he takes a cup as if, like,

he's going to, he's going to loot along with them. You know what I mean? And he raises that cup, and then he rides the line with that cup. And he's tinking the tops of their bayonets, kind of inspiring them of he's out there with them on the battle. And he ends up, you know, taking a shot and then bleed out and it's not one of his staff officers, kind of like it's like me looking across the unit, it's like, Jaco, man, you're looking kind of pale about right now. You know, you're bleeding out. They pull him down into a little ravine, getting him out of sight of everybody and pull him off the saddle and, you know, he's done training. He dies right there on the field. So then now you've got, you know, PT Beauregard, basically the second in command is now,

And it's kind of almost as if, like, you know, when you look at it in the readings, when Beauregard kind of finds out that Johnson's dead, you'd seem to have a little bit more remorse of, like, I mean, Johnson's a good commander. You know what I mean? But, you know, P.C. Beauregard, like he said, I mean, and Sam Watkins calls it out of, like, why, what's this halt? Like, why aren't we just crushing this army? Why are we not pushing force? Because you just lost the commander. And when no one's there giving a command, people just stop because they don't know.

You know what I mean? Even though like it kind of boggles me a little bit because if you tell me like if you're like, hey, J.D, we're going to water our horses on the Tennessee River that even if I don't hear from you for the entire rest of the day. You know what to do. I know exactly what to do. I'll see you to Tennessee River. Yeah, I'll be there watering my horse, man. You know what I mean? You get there and be like, hey, Jocco, what up?

It's the ultimate commander's intent intent. Yeah, I got it. You don't have to tell me anything else. I just know I need to get to the Tennessee River and anything in between me and the Tennessee River, I need to kill. Period. And I got my horse.

I'm at the Tennessee River. We're there. Because, you know, they also, you know, they're worried about, you know, this guy of like, okay, you know, because just like gathering and tell, okay, where's Buell? Because there's another army out there. I mean, that's a huge factor to anybody, you know,

whether it's Johnson. whether it's Beauregard you know you've got another army out there moving around like that that's a that's another force you have to contend with yeah that's like you're on the football field and there's another team that's going to come and get on the field against you yeah you want to finish off the guys that are there yeah and they don't do that no that's where this halt comes in and these guys kind of just they stop they halt they hold up and and while this is happening I mean The first of all the the union brings in these gunboats for the night and starts

Shelling Which is apparently ineffective other than the fact it's just Mayhem and noise and you know some I'm sure some casualties you're not sleeping very well and you're getting shelled even if it's inaccurate You got Nathan Bedford Forrest Nathan Bedford Forrest this guy he's out doing reconnaissance and and he actually discovers Buell

that he finds out that Buell's coming. Oh yeah. Yeah. He starts trying to tell everybody Bule's coming. Here comes this other army. Hey boss, Bule's coming. The whole other army's coming our way. This isn't good. No one listens to him.

Yeah. And remember last night when we were kind of chit to chat in about about four, remember like he put on union uniforms and got like in close in reconnaissance. So he's got eyes on Buell coming in and he's reporting it up his chain. Now, you know, Nathan is not a not a West Point grad. You know, so he's not in the club. You know what I mean? He's not very well educated.

All right. We got to talk about Nathan Forrest. Tell us a little bit about this guy because he's a character. He is. Well, you know, I'd like to explain to a lot of folks, like, nobody really knew who Nathan Bedford Forrest was until Tom Hanks came out with the movie, Forrest Gump. And right at the beginning of the movie, you know what I mean?

You got Tom Hanks, and he's talking about his great, great, great, great, great grandfather that, you know what I mean, fought in a Civil War and was a general officer, and then he rode around with sheets on and stuff like that. And everybody was kind of like sitting there with their iPad, and they were like, hmm, let me Google search that real quick. Wow, this guy, he's got a little bit of a backstory to him. So Nathan, he's a Tennessee guy, not educated formally, but at the beginning of the war, when they're calling to arms, Nathan Bedford, I mean, he's first one out. Like, yep, I'm coming in. I'm in, coach.

He's not educated, but he's wealthy, right? Oh, he's wealthy. He's a millionaire in 1860. From the slave trade. From slave trade. and he shows up no real military experience none but he's ready to he's ready to go he's he's a private he just wants to sign up and just make me a rifleman uh i i just want to go kill yankees uh because you know this is going to go against my way of life and of course the folks that are there like

nathan is well known you know what i mean that kind of guy banging that kind of money back then and he's you know of what he's doing uh with inside the slave trade and and and and and And, you know, he's a very known individual. So, of course, you know, the folks are in there and they're like, hey, man, that's Nathan out there. Now, of course, like, nobody like, you know, because Nathan doesn't come from prominent family, you know what I mean, like dirt poor. Like, the guy just doesn't come from a prominent family. So even though he's got money, you know what I mean, it's new money. You know what I mean?

He's not like old money South. You know what I mean? It's like been around for like a long time. We all, yeah, it's Virginia. Like we're like, we still got old money, Virginia. So he's not old money. He's new money, but they're just like, hey, man, you can't be a private. So they're like, well, the dude's got a whole bunch of money.

We don't have a lot of money. We're starting up. So why don't you like stand up a cavalry regiment? And how about spend your money and outfit all of them? And Nathan's like, okay, I'm down with that. Make me a colonel. Yep, I'll take this on. So Nathan, he doesn't have the military background, so he doesn't know that, like, what he's supposed to be doing.

So, like, all he knows is, is like his job, I'm cavalry. I do reconnaissance, but he's a little different than other cavalry guys because he likes to fight. And he's got no qualms about leading charges. He's not the guy that's going to be found out because, again, he doesn't know. So while everybody else is halting and they're losing. looting the camps, you know, getting out the bacon, breaking out the banjos. Nathan Bedford's running reconnaissance effort and his son's with him. You know what I mean?

And they're going to put on union uniforms. They're going to get close in reconnaissance. And they're going to see Buell coming in. He's going to report these up to higher and nobody's listening to him. You know, that other guy I talked about that was at the Hornets Nest with the union that was giving Brax and Bragg. A lot of that resistance was Prentice. and Prentice, he was commanding the 6th Division of the Army of Tennessee working for Grant.

There at first date, Prentice gets captured. So he's a prisoner of war. And he's actually in the camp, in the tents, you know, because, you know, back then, of course, they're going to segregate. You know what I mean? Enlisted guys, you're going to a certain prisoner of war camp. The officers, you get to hang out in the tent with us because we all with the West Point together. We'll catch up. totally different, you know, aspect of being a prison or a war when you look at officer versus

the enlisted side. So Prentice is literally in the tent and even telling the officers that, hey, dude, Buell is on his way. Like, he's coming like now. And they're like, dude, you're full of shit, basically. Like, you know what I mean? Like, no, he's not. We've got reports. He's over in, like, Decatur, Alabama area. And he goes, look, dude, whatever reports you're getting is wrong, you're going to see tomorrow. So not only are they getting like told from their own reconnaissance efforts, they're getting told from a prisoner of war that they just fought against all day. And he's telling them.

And they're still not taking any of this into regard. And that night, like you said, so they're going to pull up two naval gunboats and they're going to start lobbing naval gunfire throughout the night. And Buell is going to show up at Pittsburgh Landing. And of course, he's seeing that mayhem. I mean, you got these guys that are from Grant, and I mean, they're literally running for their lives. I mean, they got folks that are hanging on to, remember, I told you about the embankment. So it would be like us going out there, you know what I mean, like right across on the cliffs.

And like, I am so scared for my life that I just ran through San Diego and I'm just hanging on to the sides of the cliff just to get away from this, man. I mean, it's complete and utter fear for their lives of what they've seen that day on the front. day of battle. So then you got this other Army commander, Buell shows up. Well, you know how those guys are like, what are you guys doing? What'd you screw up? Yeah. And then of course, you know, anytime you got a bad day, it just starts torrential downpour. So right around like 2,200 at night, man, it's just, you know, pissing out of a boot. I mean, it's just not a good day. It's raining on Grant's parade. And who comes over, you know, Tecumse Sherman. Is there with Grant. And, you know, Grant doesn't go get on a boat. He doesn't even get in a tent. I mean, it's like, it's like literally,

like right above Pittsburgh landing. Like there's these just large oaks that are still sitting there. And every time I'm standing there, I can always imagine just Grant sitting there, just underneath cover. He's in his wool coat. And it's just right in. He's just right in. He's just. just thinking about his days of vets. And, you know, Tecumseh Sherman comes over, and it's just not a good day. And he looks at Sherman, and he's like, we'll whoop him tomorrow, comp. Yeah, so even though Grant, you know, ran a yard sale, he did that. He's owning it.

And the only good thing about when Buell shows up with his army, even though their peers, they both have the same mindset, they're attacking in the morning. Like, we're going offensive against this Confederacy. So, you know, that shows that gives you a little glimpse into this guy. They call you Lizzie's S. Grant. That, I mean, he just got routed. They took all of his stuff. So I couldn't imagine the morale of the private soldier at that time.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, anytime, like you're without your gear and it's cold, wet, and miserable, and you don't have your stuff. like JD's just not a happy camper anymore. So that's what happens. I mean, the next day, Buell and Grant, even though they're both independent commanders of their own troops,

they both go on the attack. And they're able to push, they're able to push the Confederates all the way back to Corinth. Now, this character, Nathan Bedford Forrest, he gets assigned to hold, rear guard and a little excerpt here from the book which I actually read from already today it's called Shiloh in hell before night and there's a section in here worth reading so the Confederates are retreating Nathan Bedford Forrest and his

troops are holding rearguard you know just trying to keep the pressure off the troops the Confederates as they retreat and this is going to the book as the federal skirmishers began picking their path through the fallen timbers and became somewhat disorganized and momentarily preoccupied forests seemed to sense it was time to act shouting to his men charge he led the way as the cavalry thundered toward Sherman's men some of the union skirmishers panicked and fled others were blasted by shotguns and pistols as the rebel horsemen rode down rode them down the fury of the charge also turned back the fourth Illinois cavalry and forest seemingly carried away by exhilaration of combat was waving his sword and shouting charge

charge as he kept after them his men seeing the strong front of the oncoming brigade were not following however and forest was galloping alone directly into the ranks of the main federal force he should have been killed Federal infantry swarmed all about him, trying to shoot him or drag him from his horse. The horse was kicking and rearing. Forrest was slashing right and left. Even when a soldier managed to place his gun up against Forrest's hip and pulled the trigger, the blast lifting the commander high in his saddle and the bullet lodging against his spine, the action did not unhorse him or stop him. Turning his horse around and clearing a path with his saber, Forrest plowed back in the direction from which he was.

he came as he was emerging from the mass of blue infantry he reached down grabbed an enemy soldier by the collar swung the man onto the horse and used him as a shield as he galloped away once out of range of the Union fire forest flung the man to the ground and rode up to the ridge to the point where his command was waiting in amazement Sherman too was amazed as well as disgusted But that was neither the first nor the last time that that devil Forrest, as Sherman came to call him, cheated death, though perhaps never more spectacularly than at the fallen timbers. So that's what this guy, Nathan Bedford Forrest, he earned a hell of a reputation that day. Now, before we get too excited about the heroics of Nathan Bedford Forrest, we also have to note that this is the guy that founded and,

and started and was the first grand wizard of the KKK. And so when Forrest Gump talks about his great, great, great, great grandfather and talks about him riding around in sheets after he fought in the Civil War, that's what he's talking about. But with that, they were, the Confederates retreated. They were defeated.

This is the battle that, you know, like you were saying, this was sort of now, now we're in the war. the big leagues at the end of the battle killed wounded and missing totaled 24,000 between both sides and there's a book about the battle of Shiloh it's called seeing the elephant and it's written by a guy named Joseph Allen or two guys Joseph Allen Frank and George A. Reeves and they have a foot footnote about this expression seeing the elephant which I think I mentioned already and they say in this footnote seeing the elephant was a euphemism for experiencing combat the earliest source of which can

be traced to the third century bc when alexander the great's soldiers defected defeated king porous is elephant born troops in the induce valley seeing the elephant well the war had taken a turn at this point and it was about to get worse with that we will continue this journey on the next civil war excursion and if you want to support this podcast go to jocco store.com joccofuel.com origin usa.com eschelomfront.com and the o mnna.com and until next time this is jd and jocco out