Jocko Podcast - Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion With JD Baker Pt.5: The Last Battle of Stonewall Jackson

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

The Battle of Chancellorsville raged in Virginia May 2 through 6, 1863. Union General Joseph Hooker failed and gave a decisive victory to the Confederates. However, the victory was not a cheerful one for the South. On the night of May 2, Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson and his men, returning from an attack, were fired on by their own Confederate brethren who thought Jackson’s group was Union soldiers. Jackson was hit by two bullets in his left arm, which was then amputated. Eight days later Jackson died of complications from pneumonia.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is the Jocko podcast Civil War Excursion number five with J.D. Baker and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, J.D. Good evening, Jocco. For much of its course between the two armies, the Rappahannock was less than 150 yards wide, said to be an easy, hollering distance, and the opposing pickets wasted little time declaring an unofficial truce. it would remain in force unviolated for four and a half months. Inevitably, a good deal of banter was exchanged. Not long after the Fredericksburg battle, a federal called across the picket to the 37th, North Carolina to ask if there was a sorry corporal over there, they would be willing to trade for General Burnside. If not, he said, would they accept the general in an even swap for a broken down?

horse following the mud march the rebel pickets were quick to ask the sod men of the Sixth Corps when are you coming over again have you gotten your mules out of the mud they were frequent there were frequent good-natured comparisons of rations and the discomforts of picket duty and the merits of their respective officers it was not long before the pickets were trading more than talk sergeant Edmund S. Stevens of the ninth Louisiana explained a new trade to his parents. We taken boxes and other such articles as would answer fixed sales to them and send them across the Yankees and exchange tobacco and cigars for coffee and tea. Newspapers were another popular medium of exchange. One lucky federal encountered a rebel so desperate for coffee that he would trade whiskey for it. More typical was the transaction recorded by a Pennsylvania soldier on January 6, 2 pounds of union coffee.

for 10 of Confederate tobacco. Officers tried to break up this nautical commerce, but without notable success. Supply and demand was at work here in a classical way. The best time to catch officers unaware the men found was at first light, and in those dim hours, the cross river traded, flourished. Sergeant Stevens went on to describe the adventures of a man in his company, Ezra Denson, who was not satisfied with this arm's length trade. He found a piece of flotsam and paddled across to the North Bank to do his trading in person. Denson reported that the Pennsylvanians, he encountered, were very kind, social, and invited him back.

On the subject of war, however, he found them disgusted, discouraged, and dissatisfied, could not digest old Lincoln's action calling for Negro troops it was mutually agreed that the two armies should meet halfway and shake hands and never fire another gun so you're there you go that's a little section from the book Chancellorville Chancellorville by Stephen W. Sears so this is after the battle of fredericksburg which which we covered on the last episode. What happened is they, they settle in on opposite sides of the river. And there's an attempt, like another attempt with the, tell us about the mud march that happens. Yeah.

So obviously, you know, on the last one we talked about the Battle of Fredericksburg and December is 62. So, and if you remember all the way like kind of back before then, you know, Burnside had options of like what he was going to do. So you can either cross right there. it's tidal right into Fredericksburg, right next to the telegraph road, you know, the shortest distance. Or, you know, you can go, you know, upstream on the Rappahannock, and then you've got the ability of those fords, you know, U.S. Ford, Ely's Ford, and you could just Ford across and come out

and around and avoid any bridging, you know what I mean, which obviously from the whole bridging. Are the Ford's dry if there's not much rain in like a drier season or they, there's always a little bit of water going? Yeah, there's always a little bit of water. You know, I live currently today. I'm probably two and a half miles from Ely's Ford. And, you know, in the summertime, you know, it's going to get low to where like you could like have, maybe have to drag your canoe. But there's still water there. So it's continually flowing. It's not like some of the river basins out here in the west where they just dry up. There there's always water. Now, in December, January that's there, oh yeah, there's a lot of water. You know what I mean? All the rain, the winter rains. So it's still, it's, it's, it's. It's. It's a very substantial river. So after the debacle of goes on with the Battle of Fredicksburg, Burnside decides that, okay, I got to kind of like try to redeem myself a little bit. And if you could imagine with the road systems of how they are now coming into the winter,

December and January timeframe, he's going to try to, again, instead of crossing right into Fredericksburg, he's going to go down and go with that original plan of let's use the forwards and cross that way to get in. But the road systems, I mean, like literally, I mean, because, okay, you know, you think of, like, the logistical aspects of these guys going through there. And that's why, like, Confederates, when you were reading there, kind of, like, making fun of them. Because they, like, they cook a bunch of chow.

Like, you can tell, like, they can always tell when something was about to happen. Because the guys on pickets, you know, they're observing what's going on. Hey, man, they're cooking a lot of chow. Hey, they're putting a lot of stuff in their knapsacks. They're issuing ammo. Like, they can see, like, something must be coming. And when they start to go to try to move, the roads are just like that, that Virginia mud to wear like, you know what I mean? Like you've ever been on like mud runs.

Still like that way out to wear like your feet are like getting like. Okay. So and now you've got like this cannon and you've got like mules and horses just trying to go. And there's 70,000 of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's 70,000 people.

So like the first two dudes got it pretty good. You know what I mean? Everybody else behind it. It's like when you step in and you. you like lose your shoe like in the mud, you know what I mean? You can't find it. So it's just this horrific what they end up calling the mud march. And I mean like the axles of the wagons and the artillery are just buried.

And the Confederate privates and stuff on the other, they're watching all of this. Needs to say to their entertainment. And you could just imagine down at the common soldier of like, whose bright idea is this? what I mean? So that's the Burnside mud march that they're they're kind of talking about. And it's just so after that it's like, okay.

And the mud march is just like a one day excurs. Like they realize immediately like, oh, yeah, this is a bad plan. This is not going to work. You know what I mean? Like let's just go in. When was the mud march? Right after the FredExburg. Yeah.

A couple of weeks. Yeah. A couple of weeks. Yeah. Because I mean, they were a wreck. Yeah. But he's still, you know, Burnside is is still in command. And he's trying to redeem him.

You know what I mean? Like he's got orders from Lincoln. I mean, you know, we're going to go into camp kind of stuff of winter camps and wait for the spring thaw to come out. And it's not like, you know, in Virginia, it's not like it's snow. It's just that that rain and the roads. I mean, so logistically moving is just impossible. Yeah. It's kind of the worst, you know, when I was out in Virginia, it's not quite cold enough to snow or at least not quite cold enough to keep snow. on the ground, maybe it freezes for a couple days, but then it's just going to melt and it's just going to be 34 degrees, right? So it's not free, you know, because if it would just get cold enough to snow and freeze the mud, now you could probably get it done. But when it's just 34 degrees, 35 degrees,

everything is just sludge freezing and not optimal for operations. So these guys go into winter camp and this winter camp is long like so so basically both sides the union and the confederates they they kind of stand down a bit for the winter on both sides of the river and uh they're doing these like you know we're standing watch we're walking down you know we're observing what they're doing but we're also just sitting down they're talking shit to the guys and trying to get tobacco from them or trying to get coffee from them and whatnot um um And that goes on like through the winter, December all the way until springtime. Yeah, because, you know, March time frame, you know, in Virginia, you know what I mean?

It's going to start to warm up a little bit. But, you know what I mean? Now you still got the rain that's going to come in, you know, the springtime. You know, and it's just a lot of rain. So any thoughts of like how you're going to logistically move? So yeah, it's basically almost like the two armies go into camp. And they're literally right across the river from each other. So it would be just like me and you, you know what I mean?

You're on the union. I'm all on the Confederate side. And we've got our little picket duty. You know what I mean? Which, you know, everybody like, okay, you're just going to go down there by the river. So it'd be like me and you staring across the table right now at each other. And it's like, hey, dude, has things over there. You know what I mean?

It sucks. Yeah, the common soldier. But like, if you start about like, hey, you know, they want to, if you got anything to trick a broken down mule for a general officer, you know what I mean? They're ready. So that kind of tells you like what the morale is like in the Army of the Potomac with Burnside. One of what they, you know, I mean, you just look back at Fredericksburg with the pontoon bridging, all the explanations. I mean, it was just, you know, sleeping with the dead. Chamberlain, I mean, the privates are just not happy. Then you're going to load them all up, get them geared up, take them on a mud march. You know what I mean? They're just not happy. You know what I mean? And they haven't had like any kind of a very.

victory. So, and then you're sitting in the camps. And there's another book, you know, we don't have, it's an interesting read about an artillerist guy that, that served in the artillery. And it's called a hard tack and bacon. And it's, all as it is, it's like basically about, like, what it's like in, like, army camp as a, as a private. It's not like these dudes are, you know, they're not, they're not at Chatham Manor. You know what I mean? Like, these guys are just, uh, it's, it's, It's just like any other place like over in Iraq. You see a lot of guys, they're in a shithole, but they're going to spruce it up. You know what I mean?

They're going to make it as best as a little homie as they can. So that's basically what these guys are doing. But on the Confederate side, they can't keep their armies in camp and run resupply. So Robert E. Lee is going to have to do like what he always does. Somebody's going to have to leave. So he's going to have to take one of his core of either Jackson or Longstreet. And he's going to have to send them away because he can't sustain that size of an army on the Confederate side like they do on the Union side. So he decides this time he's going to send Longstreet.

You know what I mean? He's going to go down towards like Suffolk area, Virginia to kind of get them spread out. But, you know, there's that rail system that we talked about over there at the at the slaughterpin area where Mead broke through Jackson's lines. So there's rails to get down all the way to Norfolk area. You know what I mean? It's still there to this day. It's basically, you know, for the folks listening out, there's like heading down 301, you know, taking that aspect down to that area. So long streets away.

And then, of course, you know, Lee and Jackson have to kind of hang out, you know what I mean, in camps, keeping an eye on like, when's the Army of the Potomac going to move again? Because they're still have to keep the Army of the Potomac out of Richmond. I mean, that's – and now they're kind of like sitting and watching the Army of the Potomac. to see what they're going to do next. And that is a couple of month process. I mean, you know, the Battle of Chancesville is going to take place in May. So that means that they're not even up and moving, you know what I mean, until April time frame before they're even going to stand and like even start planning the next operational period. Now, Burnside self-relieved, right, at this point.

Yeah, he's, yeah. So he's gone. Yeah, Burnside's out. Hooker gets put in command. Fight Joe And this was interesting And it's a good It's a good lesson

So hooker's been put in command But there's an interesting The way this happens Just from a leadership perspective To look at this Because hooker Hooker's like a political type guy And he'd been undermining

He'd been undermining Birdside The whole time And he had like minions up in D.C. Kind of talking smack about Burnside and he's just one of those kind of conniving guys. It seems like to me. And apparently that's what it seemed like to Lincoln to. So in the book, Chancellorsville by Sears, once again,

here's what the president says to, here's what the president says to Hooker. The president in his letter went directly to the point. I think it is best for you to know that there are some things in regard to which I am not quite satisfied with you. I believe you are a brave and skillful soldier, which of course I like. I also believe you do not mix politics with your profession in which you are right. You have confidence in yourself, which is a valuable, if not indispensable, quality.

You are ambitious, which within reasonable bounds, does good rather than harm. However, during General Burnside's Tide of Command, you have taken counsel of your ambition and thwarted him as much as you could in which you did a great wrong to your country. So what I like about that and what's a good warning for all human beings is when you're doing these little maneuvers, you think you're looking out for yourself,

you think you're making your boss look bad, people see it. And by the way, this goes up the chain of command, down the chain of command, your peers. When you do some little thing, you go, oh, you know, JD and I went and did this mission and, you know, I'm going to tell everyone that I was the one that came up with a plan. And you don't think JD's going to see that? You don't think the boss is going to be like, why is Jock was taking credit for a plan that these guys came up with together? You're going to look bad.

And so Hooker ends up not looking great. But at the same time, he has had, you know, a little bit of success. He's been in leadership position. So it seems like Lincoln just kind of, he's the next guy. guy is going to give a crack at this thing. Yeah. And if you remember from the last podcast coming in, I mean, when they offered Burnside that position, he knew it was kind of outside of his wheelhouse.

You know what I mean? Like he didn't want, but then when Lincoln was like, okay, well, I'm going to put Hooker in there. And he's like, whoop, okay, I'll take the job. Because, yeah, Hooker did, he did a good job at Antietam. But again, he's, you know, he's that leader that's always under observation. Everybody's seeing this stuff. And I'm with you.

I love the way that Lincoln's going to set him down and like let him know that, hey, dude, like, we know what you were doing, like, the entire time of undermining the commander. That's a powerful message from the commander-in-chief of a president to now an appointed army commander that's going to take over the army of the Potomac. So it's got to be like, hooker's probably sitting there going like, holy shit, man, that dude knew. Yeah, like everybody. But if the president knows, everybody knows. The other interesting thing is a dichotomy too, right? Because Lincoln's saying, hey, you know, ambition is good. You know, ambition is good.

Within reasonable bounds, it's good. It does good rather than harm. But then he's got that Patton-esque thing. You have taken counsel of your ambition, which, you know, Patton said, do not take counsel of your fears, right? So this guy's taking counsel of his ambition. What a freaking class. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. And, you know, so obviously if you look at your morale-wise and from where you started out with the common soldiers, mainly, you know, the morale on the on the Army of Northern Virginia with the Confederates, you know what I mean? They're kind of having a good time, you know what I mean, in camp, you know what I mean, hanging out.

Are they able to like, I mean, they're in their home territory, right? Does that make it that much easier for them? I mean, are they able to like, hey man, you know, my, my girlfriend's coming up. Are they able to take a little bit of leave? I know the officers are kind of free to come and go, but what about the soldiers? Not as much. I mean, they got to kind of like put in for, you know, I mean, kind of like how we used to have to put in for like a leave jet. You know what I mean? And like, you want to put in for leave.

But if it's during an operational period, commanders would be like, yeah, we can't go right now. Like, for instance, talking to guys in Vietnam, guys that, like the Saug guys that fought with the South Vietnamese guys, they'd go into Laos for four days, come back to NOM. And then their Vietnamese counterparts were like, hey, I'm going home for the weekend. But, you know, like, I'm in Vietnam. It wasn't like the guys, the Army guys, the SF guys that were not going to go anywhere. They're in Vietnam. They're fighting. So could the guys in the Confederate, since they're in Virginia, did they have a little bit better liberty for lack of a better way of saying it?

Yeah, they probably, yeah, they had definitely over the union side. But, you know, when you look at the makeup of like the Army of Northern Virginia, You know what I mean? Like, Moses got there from Mississippi, Alabama. I mean, they're from all different states. So they're not all from Virginia. And then, you know, but some of them, you know what I mean, to be able to take leave, to go home, especially during that time. It's also going to rely out.

I mean, it's just like with anything, it's the commander. And, you know, and we had talked of Jackson, you know what I mean? Jackson, he's not the most at the time with that core. he's not the most lenient with the enlisted. You know what I mean? Because some of them are from, I mean, if you look back at the way he was like in Winchester, when he had his headquarters up there and his Shandah Doa Valley campaign,

you know, for a volunteer force that are coming in, it seems to me to keep the morale as high as possible, you would want these guys to go home to see families. Because just like, you know, Jackson, his wife gets to come and visit him. You know what I mean? But these guys don't have the money. you know what I mean to kind of pay for that but then again if it's almost like like nowadays like if I send you back home uh you know what I mean you can okay I'm gonna let you go home for 10 days

but you're also going to recruit five dudes while you're there and you can bring them back you know what I mean so could also be like the Iraqi army you send them home on leave and like they don't come back right as they're like well I had enough for this shit yeah but you know if you go back home and everybody like because they're all from the same hometown so if like me and you were in the same regiment and next thing you know like we're on campaign and then i show back up home you know the picnic at the sunday afternoon's going to look odd a little awkward yeah like jd how are you here you know what i mean oh well you know me i'm kind of on leave for for how long you know i just left you know so uh those aspects of it uh of being in that in that hometown uh is a little bit different so you know the morale

on the on the on the confederate side is also better because i mean they just laid the wood in Fredericksburg. I mean, and then they watch this mud march. And you can hear when you kind of call it out. I mean, these guys are doing a little ball busting of the guys on the union because these guys are like down in the dumps. And they're, you know, from all up with the northeast. Or, you know, you've got folks from all over.

And they're commanders that they've had. They haven't had a victory yet. So it's, you know, it's kind of like you're on a losing team. You know what I mean? And it's just nobody's buying jerseys. Everybody's coming to your games, you know what I mean? And, you know, the other side is, you know, is just, is having a lot of success at this point in time. So, you know, Hooker coming in command, he's got to kind of look at raising morale.

How can I, you know, bring morale up? And, you know, that's where we kind of, you know, talks about with, you know, hooker brings in the Army patches, you know what I mean? So that's where, you know, if you're in the United States Army, you know what I mean? Hooker is the one that they get to design patches for. for their units and put them on to kind of like, hey, we got patches. What's the Army still uses to this day?

They have a lot of patches. And if you're in the SEAL teams, you made patches that were totally illegal and you wore it. No, they've gone through a little like in the SEAL teams, you know, the patches thing started. And then the patches thing got kind of wild. And I think right now they kind of shut down patches.

You're not allowed to have them. Like I did that, but I did that because, hey, listen, we're working in the Army, the Marine Corps, don't be, you know, we can't look like a bunch of jackasses. And then, but, but eventually we, even we wore patches and task unit bruiser, but not me. But they kind of went to an extreme and now they're sort of tightened it up like across universally and they say no patches. But now what do you have? A bunch of platoons with patches in their pocket and they're ready to break out as soon as they get the opportunity.

That patches thing is, what I'm saying is that patches thing is really. real. And if you can make that a point of pride, it'll, people will work for it. People hold it, elevate it in their minds. And so that's, that came from Hooker. Yeah. So, you know, and, and the logic behind some of the patches always like, you know, because like one of the units has got like a, you know, their second core, but they got a three leaf clover. And then like, you know what I mean? Like third core has a four-sided diamond kind of stuff. You know what I mean? It like doesn't make sense. Like, you know what I mean? If I'm in third,

Court, three-leaf clover. It's got three leaves. I can remember, you know what I mean? Now, you're confusing people. You know what I mean? So no offense to the Army, guys, I'm with you. You know, I see Marines and we're not allowed to wear patches either. But, you know, you'll see more tattoos of the first Marine, the diamond that's right up the road from us here, man. Like, dudes got that inked on them. They are proud of where they, the second Marine division. Like, dudes are proud of those. So, yeah, it's just like, if they, if they, if they, if they, if they, if they, They have an opportunity to throw a patch or a sticker or anything, you know what I mean, that they're proud of. Yeah, it raises morale.

Like, dudes do not want to discredit the folks that came before them that wore that. So, yeah, so he does that. Another way that he does it, which this kind of shows to where, like, Hooker never did time and sell block. You know what I mean? He was never enlisted. You know what I mean? He wasn't at the gallows of the ship. Lincoln comes down.

They're going to put on a parade. you know and and uh and i've never been at a parade that like i thought was like cool like oh hey man we got a parade next Friday man this is going to be awesome you know what I mean like maybe at the officers because they're all going to be up there you know all that kind of stuff and they're going to get excited about the parade and you know they're going to be invited over to the general tent for like cookies and snacks and stuff but like private baker you know what I'm standing out there in the middle like three quarters of a mile away I can't even see because some dude in front of me like six foot nine and I don't see anything and I don't get invited for the cookies and snacks

afterwards so he thinks that raises morale and kind of brings it down but so Lincoln makes his way down visits camp and stuff like that of course you know as a as the uh the commander in chief that's good that you know these folks are coming down and visiting just like they still do you know today I mean it's a big deal to come out and uh and see how the how the guys and gals are doing, you know, in country while they're, while they're on campaign. So, you know, now Hooker's got to come up with his strategy of, okay, how am I going to deal when we go into campaign? So he's got to come up with his plan. And then his plan is basically to do the mud march, but when there's no mud. Right. I mean, fundamentally, they realize they can't get across the setup, the defensive setup,

that we talked about in Fredericksburg, the river, the town, the open field, the sunken road, the stone wall, the hill. Like you're not going to beat that. We got to go west. We got to use the fords to get to maneuver to that area where they have a different approach. And the approach will be to the flank of where Lee and Jackson are at, basically 10 miles, about 10 miles, 8 miles, 10 miles, 12 miles, something like that to the west. Yeah.

That's the idea. Yeah, it's basically, you know, if you're looking at Fredericksburg, even to this day, it's the modern day route three back then, called it the Plank Road. So it's a, I mean, it's a very well-used road. Even back then, it even still is today. So if you go from Fredericksburg and you go west, so you're going upstream up the Rappahannock. And as you go up past, you get out about like anywhere between like eight to 10 miles out. there's a split in the river and now you've got the Rappahannock and you've got the Rappadan

river that is spilling into the Rappahannock that's right out there towards that you got the Ely's Ford, U.S. Ford. So you got these fords that are out there. But like you said, with the no mud. You know, everything's, you know, everything's drying up. Now you can logistically start moving folks. And of course, you know, during that whole entire time, you've got the cavalry guys doing their job reconnaissance. They're watching the fords on both sides. You know what I mean? Of seeing like, okay, how is looking at the depths of the water, how's the banking? Are we going to be?

You know, because you've got engineers that are looking at this stuff. So all that is kind of going on after Hooker decides that, okay, yeah, we're going to head west. We're going to use the Ford's. And then because then that's going to cause, is Robert E. Lee, you know what I mean? He's got to stay in Fredericksburg because Hooker's also going to leave folks back there. So he's not like the whole army of the Potomac's just going to get up and abandon right above at Chatham Manor right across from there. So this is going to cause a dilemma of like, okay, he can get up and move his force. But if he leaves a division back there and he takes off and starts going west, well, now Robert E. Lee's got to make a decision too.

And it's just him and Jackson. And when he let Longstreet go, he did keep back two divisions that belong. to Long Street. So you're kind of looking at like Jackson's core, like a core plus. Yeah. So he's got like a core plus. But he can't just take his core and move west to counter this offensive that Hooker's going to do and leave nobody in Fredericksburg. Because then now they can just hop across, they can gain a foothold and they can gain the heights beyond Fredericksburg.

Game changer. You know what I mean? If they ever would have achieved those Mary's Heights. beyond Fredericksburg. Dude, he can move his logistical base to, yeah, it's game on. So you're kind of got like, it's a chess match with Robert Ely and Joe Hooker now. So they go to execute this thing. When Hooker starts to move these, are they being clandestine about it?

Are they trying to, are they trying to like keep a low profile as they start moving 80,000 people, whatever the number is? Or are they just like, all right, we're just going to try and do this fast as we can? Yeah, well, they're going to try to leave at night. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So there, but like I said again, like when it gets out to the, you know, the opposite, because

of the river and the terrain and it's wintertime, there's no foliage, you know, even though these guys are back, they're running reconnaissance on each one. But when people are cooking and you can always tell when there's activities in camp and everybody knows when it hits the springtime, they're going to go into campaign. So it's like, if you're on. leave or you're recruiting. Like everybody needs to start coming back. Um, so, but down to like the legitimate tactics of the, so I'm hooker. Am I saying, all right, guys, you know, it's getting dark at six o'clock at night. Don't do anything. Don't do any big moves. Six o'clock at night goes,

I want, you know, that's where you're going to start moving. Are they doing it like that? Is it a clandestine movement to the best of their ability? To the best of their ability. Yeah, because if you look at it, okay, So even though on these roads, which are not like improved roads like we kind of think of today, it's not the telegraph road, it's not the plank road. So these roads, like even still to this day, they're only two lane roads to get over to these fords. So it's going to take a minute to get there. So if they're going to pick up, they need as much to buy as much time as possible because you know as well anything. If Robert E. Lee can get to those fords, you know what I mean?

Yeah, it's just like South Mountain trying to come over there. I mean, there's only certain channelized area. You're channelized area and that's where you can get them. So, yeah, they're going to try to get. And now it's a race. Who can, if they can get across those fords and get up onto what is like Spotsylvania County and out of Stafford County, now they got a foothold. So, yeah, they're going to try to get across their first.

And Hooker does a good job of that. And Lee, meanwhile, he, well, Hooker, first of all, like you said, Hooker leaves Sedwick and like 40,000 guys. Yep. This is mass movement. I mean, 40,000 guys is the stay behind on the river, on Fredericksburg, looking across the banks of the Fredericksburg. That's Sedwick.

Mead, Howard, and Slocum, their hookers guys, they do this big maneuver to the West. Lee, he leaves General Early with a division at Fredericksburg, and what they do, this is what makes me think about this clandestine thing because what they do right is they they set up like they thin out their line and they put fires throughout the line to make it appear as if they're they don't you know everyone's still there that's kind of their deception mode yeah so it would be like you know if you and i were you know a couple of privates back there and we're hanging out in freditsberg you know what I mean like in the evenings and stuff we're moving up and down the lines to give the appearance that we're all still there and then you know robert lee's going to draw

drop back, you know, with Jackson and the rest of the core, and now they're behind Mary's Heights so that they can start head now. But, but their direct route to get to, like, like I said, I mean, from Fredericksburg to the Chancellorville House at those crossroads of Ely's Ford Road and the Plank Road is, dude, it's 10 miles. And on the plank road, it's a quick movement. I mean, that is great movement for Robert E. Lee. So it's going to take a while for those. But Hooker and these guys, and they're going to use multiple fords to spread them all out. You know what I mean? So when you look at the guys like when you talk about it with like Mead and Howard and Slocum,

you know what I mean? So you've got like this three-prong movement and they're all going to go to different forts. And then even when they come up out of the Ford into Sponsylvania County, then they're going to, there's even still to this day, there's three prominent roads to get back into Fredericksburg. right so you got the main road which is the plank road but then you've got old plank road that is to the south and then right along the river is river road and river road is i mean now it's it's it's river road is probably the least traveled road uh but it's it's still there but you get on that man and i mean like it's still to this day there's nothing out there man it's it's it's there's no strip malls there's

no nothing, man. I mean, even to this day, River Road is like the locals, because I'm a local, the locals use River Road to move in and around the area to avoid Route 3 and I-95. Like, if you're a local, you know where River Road is. So Mead's going to be on River Road. So he's going to have a three-prong approach, even coming from the west to the east with that use of those three roads, if that kind of makes sense. So just to recap, you got Hooker. He maneuvered. out to the west. He's got a hundred and thirty-eight thousand men with him. Which again, look, hey man, you know, I was in the military.

You know, I maneuvered around. We had 40 guys in the task unit, bro. You know, you and I were talking last night. You know, how long does it take to get you? I got four kids in my family. Like, how long does it take? If I sprung on my family, hey, we're going to a restaurant. We need to leave now.

That's like 15 minutes to get everyone out of the car. We're talking 138,000 people. They move west. They get across these forts. And then there's basically what you're saying is there's three paths to get back to towards Fredericks. Towards Fredericksburg. The most northerly one is River Road. And then there's the new plank road.

And then there's old plank road. And that's where they're going to start moving down. The other side, he got Lee. and he had left left some of his guys with General Early, the rest of him had backed off the ridge line and started moving west as well

where these two forces are going to meet. Now, interestingly, Lee, he goes up Old Plank Road and New Plank Road. Like, that's where he decides, like, he doesn't have anyone on River Road. Nobody.

And by chance, Mead, he is is on River Road with his troops. Yep. They start moving east towards Fredericksburg as the two armies kind of skirmish for the first time. They kind of like chance contact almost. Yep.

It's a meeting gate. I mean, it's, yeah, they just, so you got these, these two armies. So you got two parades and they're on the plank road. So it's, you know, you got the two parades and they're kind of coming in. and they're both kind of going to go into battle formation, so they're going to collide right there. And it's right next to, there's a farm that's still there.

It's the first day of Battle of Chancellorsville is going to take place right there on the Plank Road. And that from downtown Fredericksburg to this day, that's like six miles. So you got like a few more miles to get back to the Ely's Ford Road. So yeah, so Hooker's doing pretty good, man. Like he got across the Ford. You know what I mean?

He's got them in motion and they're moving towards Fredericksburg. Robert E. Lee leaves, you know, his folks, a division back in Fredericksburg and he's moving east to west and you just got two forces that are going to hit each other. So whatever we're saying right now, like it seems complicated, but now you're getting to a point where you just have two, it's like a basic, two armies online looking at each other. But at one point, the army, you know, the, the, the union troops to their left flank, there's no resistance. And so Mead is pushing down this river road. And this is where it gets interesting. Hooker, like they start to, okay, there's the, there's the Confederate troops. Okay, we're going into battle.

And what Hooker wants to do is he wants to recreate what happened to him or what happened to Union troops at Fredericksburg. He wants to go into the defense. He wants to have the Confederates attack them. So they can sit there in good positions, in a defense position, which is a hell of a lot easier. It's a hell of a lot easier to sit behind a stone wall or a tree and wait for someone to run at you and shoot them. Then it is to run at someone that's hiding behind a stone wall or tree. So that's what he wants. He wants to go into the defense.

And so he doesn't realize the opportunity that Mead has. Because Mead's clear. He could go all the, he could split force. There's all kinds of maneuvers. He can make hook. doesn't, I guess he doesn't recognize that and he recalls him. He says, come back. Yeah.

I mean, so if you take the river road, and it's even still to this day. So if anybody, if you're ever driving around that area, go get on the river road from Ely's Ford and like literally you're going to be driving along and you can go all the way to modern day Route 1, the telegraph road. And he unimpeded. Like not one, not even like not even a not even a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, uh, a, traffic guard. I mean, there's not even a stoplight that's going to stop you. You know what I mean? And he could have gone and cut off Robert E. Lee on the modern day telegraph road and had

Robert E. Lee and the division left at Fredericksburg cut in half. And Robert E. Lee's would have been almost enveloped. I mean, like, almost completely surrounded. Yeah. And but because like Hooker, we all kind of know of like, you know, kind of talking a little bit about Hooker. I mean, Hooker's all about Hooker. You know what I mean? So he's going to, yeah, he wants to create, he wants to get the high ground. I mean, where he ends up pulling everybody back into this defensive position to kind of recreate something instead of being offensive, he's going to want Robert E.

Lee to come and attack them, you know what I mean? Because, of course, it's good. And he can anchor in his flank where he pulls Mead back and you've got the river. You know what I mean? So if you're looking at it how he's going to set it up, so Hooker, they're kind of facing, you know, west to east, looking at front of the direction of March of Robert E. Lee.

So he's going to have Meade's, you know, core that's down there and they're going to tie into that river, meaning that now their extreme left flank, you know, Robert Lee can't cross over that river. Yeah, it's protected. But then he's going to run the other side of his extreme right flank and he's got Howard

with his guys is the extreme right flank and it's in the air meaning it's vulnerable it's exposed because he's thinking okay these guys are here nobody is going to be able

nobody's going to come over and thread my right flank man so he leaves it that way thinking that Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson are obviously he didn't watch enough film prior to the game. You know what I mean? Like, you know, he doesn't have the film on Jackson, obviously, because he's going to leave that right. He thinks that they're just going to come in and do a frontal attack. Like, that's all it's in their wheelhouse. They're just going to do a frontal. He's going to sit there and he's in good ground of where he's at, except for his extreme right flank is exposed. And like, where it's exposed at,

is like it's it's it's open farmland I mean it's it's flat open area even still to this day and what he got on Howard his nickname is uh oh Howard yeah Howard he's a West Point guy he's young uh you know Howard's he's it's strange you isn't it strange you could say he's a West point guy and that can that doesn't really mean all that much at this point I mean like he gives him some sort of like some sort of starting point but we've already experienced people of West Point guys that are horrible and West Point guys that are outstanding. So, what do we got with O. O. Howard? Yeah. So, uh-oh, you know, it's O. O. Howard is his name. And he's got a lot of immigrants. I mean, I want to say, like, in his core alone with the Germans and all these guys, I mean,

there's like seven different languages being spoke. You know, in his course, I mean, when you look at communications, that's going to be, that's going to be pretty tough. But, you know, Howard, he's He's not, I mean, I never knew the guy personally, but yeah, I mean, I don't want to operate with this guy, man. You know, he's, he's, he's, you know, he's extremely, you know, he's extremely religious. He's young. He, he means well. If I could give any props to Howard, you know, Howard University of today, like the first ever, you know, African

American college is named Howard. University after General Howard. So I mean, okay, so he's a good guy, but there's a lot of good guys out there that aren't good like commanders. Yeah, I was going to say that good guys that you don't want commanding your open right flank. Right. You know what I mean? So Howard and the uh-oh of his nickname kind of is going to come mainly because of the battle

that we're about ready to take place. So if you look at how they got laid out, like if I was if I was hooker, And Hooker was at Fredericksburg with Mead. And we talked about him in the last episode, like Mead was successful. You look at some of the commanders that he has underneath him of Hancock and Mead and Reynolds. And some of these guys, I mean, he's got some good commanders that are out there. I would say that his weakest is Howard. And he's got him out there on the extreme right flank and it's unprotected.

You know what I mean? Like if it's me, I would kind of tuck that dude in in between like a couple of my really good guys to kind of keep that look out for him. So if he does decide to do something stupid, you know what I mean? Me could be like, hey dude, don't do that. You know what I mean?

And kind of raining back in. But for whatever reason, Hooker puts him, but Hooker literally thinks nobody is going to come and threaten my extreme right flank. That's how we end up there. So yeah. So is that kind of how this day ends, gets dark basically as these two giant armies.

You got 138,000 from the union lined up across from them is. And by across from them, 60,000 troops from Lee, we're talking like three quarters of a mile. That's how much they're separated by. Yeah. I mean, so right there on the, if you're looking at, just like you had stated before, the main area of concentration where they kind of end up is is right there where the old Plank Road is and the new Plank Road of Modern Day Route 3. And from from the corner of where the Chancellorville house is, which is at the intersection of Ely's Ford Road and the Plank Road, right there, there's a, of course, there's a nice house. That's one of the nicest houses in the entire area. The house isn't there anymore.

The foundation is a part of the part. I wish the house was still there. There's photographs of it and stuff that you can see. So it's a nice house. And that's where Hooker's going to send up his headquarters. And then he's going to have this defense, you know, posture around him, kind of a 180. You know, the left, his extreme left anchored on the river. And then he's got his right kind of circling around in that 180.

and just, yeah, three quarters of a mile. Like literally you go across the Plank Road. You go through, there's another little open farm area that you're coming into and then you're going to hit the old Plank Road. Right there at Old Plank Road, and where it intersects, there's an old Catherine's Furness Road. There's an old furnace that's not operational at the time, but there's an old furnace that's back there in that chance. Castleville area. And it's called, so it's the Catherine Furness Road where that road meets the old plank road, that's where Robert E. Lee pretty much ends up with his headquarters.

Dude, like, you know, I mean, I live right there. Like the Chancellorville right there, the Cracker Box that we talk about later on, it's a stone throw from where I live right now. Every time, and I run, I run the Cracker Box and I run the Flank March, at least if not, twice a week. Love running out there, man. And every time, it always amazes me when I leave the Cracker Box from the old Plank Road and I run to where the new Plank Road is, dude, it's less than a mile. Like, I'm running it. So, I mean, you can, you can check it on my Garmin. It's on Strava. So, you know what I mean? Like, if you don't believe, like, oh, it was this many miles.

Dude, I've run it a thousand times. And it amazes me how close these two armies are. I mean, it's just unbelievable of how close they are. So, yeah, day one, they both stop, and now it's like, now they're looking at each other. And we know what Hooker wants to do. He wants defense, and he wants the Army of Northern Virginia to come do a frontal on him. Because he's set up for it, man.

I don't know if he sent a memo over to Lee, like, hey, I'm ready. Come on over. Hit me with a frontal assault. But then you got like, okay, so now Lee is now the guy that has to kind of go into counsel of like, What are we going to do with this new threat? He made it across the river.

Check, you know what I mean? He threw the forwards. We couldn't stop him. We made his way in. We ran a quick blocking. We intercepted them. Now they're going to sit there in the defense. But he doesn't know that hooker is going to run defense operations either.

He doesn't know if he's going to get up. So they're kind of like trying to figure each other out of like, what are these guys going to do? But then again, they're so close and you get eyes on. If I see you stop, and you immediately start digging in. Okay, so obviously you're going defensive operations. Now, in 2022, if we stop for more than an hour, dude, we're digging in, we're putting sandbags,

even if we're going to leave in 45 minutes. Like, we like digging. You know what I mean? Like, that's why we like carry around like e-tools and shit. You know what I mean? And we love engineers with like backhose. As soon as we get there, let's just start digging. Right.

So, and this is becoming pretty common practice now with these folks of like this whole introduction of a trench and a fighting position kind of thing. So now you've got Robert E. Lee is the one that needs to make a decision of what he's going to do. And this is where you get this kind of famous conversation of which what was actually said during this famous conversation isn't really known 100%. But this is a conversation. I know you and I always refer to it as a cracker box conversation. Does everyone refer to it as the cracker box conversation? Everyone should refer to it as the cracker box conversation.

Because if you go to the cracker box, there is a placard there and it says the cracker box. So that's what it is. It's the cracker box, man. So we got Lee and Jackson sit down at this old cracker box to figure out what the plan is going to be. Yeah. And how's it go down? Yeah. So, you know, this is one of those times in the history of the world.

that like because there wasn't anybody there that that heard the conversation of like and it's the cracker box so it's like you know the hard tack and they're they're left it's it's kind of like you know how we get like the ammo crates yep and then you know what's the first thing that you know people do with ammo crate they put it back together and now that's like your field toilet you know what I mean like yeah so it's kind of the same thing we're field toilet could be your field desk your field chair like it could be anything it's it has multiple you know things you know things you can do with it. Cracker box, same way. So they're going to sit down at this cracker box. And like literally they're at first, they're kind of getting a little bit of harassing fire.

You know what I mean? They got guys shooting in them. So they move in like right off of where Ely's, where not Ely's Ford, but where the, uh, the, uh, Catherine's Furness Road and the old Plank Road. And it's just like right off of there. And there's a, there's a little marker that's there, like, like where the fire was. And there's a really cool. portrait and it's it's Jackson and Lee sitting on cracker box it's kind of like how you and I are sitting here kind of look at each other and we got a fire going and we're like what do you think we should do tomorrow and uh and you know one I mean we talked about the numbers I mean we're basically it's three against one so it's like three jocos against one JD dude even like right now

that's not good odds hell it's not really good odds with just one jaco and one jacques JD. You know what I mean? Like, so now there's three jocos and one JD. So do I want to go offensive, like against like three jacos? That, like, I'm not a smart man if I'm going to do that. Unless I got like a shitload of ammo. You know what I mean? And I could separate. So he has this conversation. And Jackson is going to convince Robert E. Lee that dude, I think we should go offensive. And. I think I'm going to take two-thirds of the folks that we have here. Because remember, he's got the core plus. So he's got those two division guys that he kind of like adopted over and got from Longstreet. So he's going to leave those two guys, McLaughlin them, back there with Robert E. Lee. And he's going to take the rest of his core. And he's like, you know, we can go down what is now called the Jackson Flank March.

So I can go down Ely's, you know, this, Catherine's Furness Road and then you take that road and it'll take me up to the Brock Road and then I can go all the way out and around and get over onto the plank road and then I can come in and I can hit them on that extreme right flank and they're like well I mean do you do you kind of know the route kind of thing well not really but you know we got there's Lacey the Lacey farm you know Reverend Lacey so you know they've they've got local I mean they're basically they got a lot of local support It is Sponsylvania, Virginia. So they're not worried about, like, anybody coming in trying to do,

they're getting support from the locals. And everybody knows Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson in Virginia. You know what I mean? They're like, hey, dude, you guys don't have tents. Come take my house. You know what I mean? They would love to have them stay there. But they don't.

And not only with, with Reverend Lacey and also they're going to need a guide. You know what I mean? someone to guide them on this road. And this is literally like very unimproved roads. Like the road that I'm talking about now when you go down there to Catherine's furnace, it's not paved even still to this day, man. It's a gravel road. And now, you know what I mean? Like it's, uh, I mean, I just couldn't imagine like it was, it was a well used road. You know what I mean? Because of the of the furnace that was there. But it's, it's not anything. I mean, it's a path through the wood. That's what I kind of look at it as back then it was it was a two-track path going through the woods of of of Chancell'sville.

So, you know, at there, that's basically what the conversation is kind of going down with, which that's why I wish like I would love to have listened to how they came up with. I'm three quarters of a mile. I'm outmaned three to one. you're going to take two-thirds of this force. And like I said, you know, you get different distances of like what's the distance all the way out and around. I've ran it a lot. It's right. I mean, you're looking at 14 miles.

So, you know, just like you talked about, like, how long is it take to get like the four kids and the wife into the car? You know what I mean? Now you're going to take, you know, thousands of people, you know what I mean, through this two-track road, through the woods. out and around 14 miles. And you've literally got an army that could just stand up. And you don't know if they're going to go offensive. You don't know what they're going to do. Yeah, that's really the crazy part or one of the crazy part of the gamble is,

you know, you leave only two divisions to face 135. If the union gets up and goes on the offensive, if they do a frontal attack in the morning, they're going to mop up. Oh, they're going to roll them over like a wet napkin. I mean, even with those two, I mean, they're going to, like, I mean, it would just, it's overwhelming forces. It would just be overwhelming. They would, especially if, like, if Jackson gets out to, like, nine miles away, you know what I mean? And Longstreet's not even there.

You know what I mean? Like, there's not enough time, distance space to get Longstreet and his core there. Even if it's like, okay, well, Longstreet's due to arrive at like 10 tomorrow morning. So, yeah, if you take off. Yeah, let's roll the dice and he'll get here. but that's not even in the picture. Like Long Street is out of this picture, completely out. So it's just Lee and Jackson.

And he's convincing the boss that he's going to take these folks and he's going to go out and he's going to hit the extreme right flank of the Union Army. The ultimate indirect attack, ultimate flanking move. Ultimate. And Lee gets credit for agreeing to it. I mean, he says, okay, we'll roll the dice. because that's a huge role of the dice. Yeah, I mean, he's the boss.

So, I mean, he, anything that happens, he owns it. And so, you know, and it's always pretty cool because, like, when you talk about, like, individuals, like, that are going to get up and, like, start, like, getting after it, you know what I mean? Like, Jackson's up early. You know what I mean? So he's up early the next morning. He's got his task at hand.

You know, the Reverend Lacey, they end up getting hooked up. one of the guys from over at the at the at the old at the old furnace over there uh wellford's son is going to act as a guide so basically you got like a a young teenager which i could only imagine you know what i mean you've got this guy general officer of stonewall jackson and here comes a 13 year old kid out there follow me dude you know what i mean but you know he knows the woods oh he knows where you want to go i got you yeah and uh so you know he's he's up early and they're off and moving. They've got acting as a guide. And it turns out it's going to be, you know, it's the ultimate flank of what they're about ready to try to do is just, it's

unimaginable in today's day and age that you could convince a commander to take two-thirds thirds and try to pull something off like that of what they do. Now, they're trying to keep it clandestine as well. Oh yeah. I mean obviously, but it's hard to go out. You got 20 30, 20,000 troops or something like this. You're trying to quietly move out. How do you get the word to 25,000 people, right? How do you get the word? So decentralized command, you know, all right, hey, bring the commanders in. We tell them, they tell them, they tell them, they tell them. And eventually by the morning, we got 25,000 people to stand up quietly and start walking out to the west, following this 13-year-old kid that's going to take us around the flag yeah and uh when you look at at jackson you know i mean

okay so now we're in 63 so you know jackson's been through the valley uh he's you know so if you're in his core it's like i always say you know there's one thing that's always true with jackson you're going to get up in the morning you're going to get on the road face to the right you're going to hike and there's going to be a gunfight at the end of it you know what i mean like you can leave your shovels at home because it's just like a frederick's bark like as soon as Jackson shows up, let's go offense. You know what I mean? He's, uh, you know, and so those guys, they're, they're in tune.

And talking about morale, they're like, yeah, we're about ready to get after it again. You know what I mean? So you got to look at the morale side of both sides. I mean, you know, if you're there, these guys have been winning. Uh, and coming off of Fredericksburg, they're like, yep, dude, they, they just cross that river again, man. We're going to go out, man, and bring the wood to that ass. And so they're up.

But like, like I said, when you go down there, even today, You can see there's a fork in the road when you get down there towards Catherine's furnace. And that is an exposed area to where if somebody's going to see you, that's where you're going to get seen. So as they get up, and it's still, you know, it's wooded, but you can still see. I mean, and they're so close together. And when you look at like lines on a map, so if anybody's like looking at a map right now and you look at that, just because that line there, they've got folks that are pushed out forward. You know what I mean?

Just like on the same thing that are doing pickets and LPOPs, listening post, observation posts. So people are trying to gain eyes on the enemy and they see Jackson. And it's reported back. And nobody does anything. So they're just sitting there waiting and they see the movement. They don't react to it. They don't counter. They don't shift their position at all.

They don't start digging in over on that right flank. They're just nothing. No. Well, I mean, they're, they're digging in. So they've got like, they're, like, trying to establish their defensive position. But they're not anchored in on anything. And they're only, you know how, like, nowadays you got like a primary fighting position, an alternate firing position, and then a supplementary firing position.

So that just in case, like, the first two can, can cover the same mission. But then you always make another position of, like, what is? if shit happens. We need to be able to now face west instead of faced east. They got none of that. They are one set mind. These guys are going to come from east to west, and that's the way they're going to hit us. Nobody's going to come from out on the west and hit us on our extreme right flank.

So Jackson makes it. And like you said, this isn't a tough march, right? This march? No, I mean, of course, that's, yeah, it's flat. Relatively speaking, right? It's 14 miles. Yeah, 14 miles. I shouldn't put it that way.

This is not an excessively challenging march. It's not like a bunch of hills. The terrain is not too harsh. So they're able to pull it off for them relative quickness. It's an easy flat mark. There's no hill street that you got to go up and over to get to it, like, you know, just down the road. It's like down here, you know, running along South Beach and then jumping on the bike path. It's nice and flat.

You know what I mean? I've run it a bunch. So, yeah, it's an easy march, but it's still going to take them some time. So they're going to roll out in the morning. They're not going to get around there until later in the afternoon. I mean, you're still moving, you know, 20,000 freaking people. 14 miles. Yeah, with all their stuff.

Yeah. You know, so he's got to take their artillery. So, yeah, it's going to take a while to get around there. And you could just so everybody's, so Jackson, there's another famous photo of Jackson and Lee, you know, right before he takes off on the flank march. And it's the last time that Robert E. Jackson are going to personally be together. Not to spoil anything, you know what I mean, but that's the last time. It's a pretty famous photo of the two. Jackson's sitting up on a little sorrel, his favorite horse, and him and Robert E. Lee, it's their last meeting. And then Jackson's off.

And now you got Robert E. Lee. And I could only imagine him hanging out right there at the cracker box. You know what I mean? Three quarters of a mile. And then he watches the last private kind of turned down towards the Catherine's furnace and now they're off to the distance and now it's a waiting game because they're just they're basically you got Lee sitting there going waiting to hear fire of the start of this flank attack I couldn't imagine the pacing like how does he entertain himself you know what I mean not taking his mind off of things and I could even imagine the folks that they leave back there Mclaws in them yeah and they're just like dude they're gone man I mean it's just us.

You know what I mean? And yeah, of course, do they got an escape route? Could they, you know, try to pull back and get back into Fredericksburg? But now you're just, you're leaving Jackson? You know what I mean? I mean, this is a, this is a huge risk of what they're doing. But Jackson, he makes it out and around. And then he gets, it gets on the right flank and sets up pretty much he's on, he pretty

much straddles the plank road. That's what he's going to do. Yep. With 25,000. And then, and then. roll in. Yeah, and he's got him like stacked. So he's straddled and he's got his divisions like in depth.

You know what I mean? So it's almost like you know, you got like a halfback and a fullback. You know what I mean? You're going to run a triple option, but you don't know who's going to get the ball. So you got like a lot of options of, you know, do I push this one to the left, to the right? So yeah, he's going to come in. And of course, you got Howard over there. Nobody's expecting them to come.

You know what I mean? And then, you know, they're all over there. And, you know, what have they been doing? all day. Slapping spades, brewing up ramen, you know what I mean, writing letters home. You know what I mean? Typical private shit. You know what I mean? And then the next thing, you know, one of them's like, well, hey dude, holy shit, look what's coming. And I mean, they're going to roll them up like a wet napkin. And if you go there, even today, so if you follow that entire flank march of what Jackson does, you're going to come in right before you get to the Wilderness Baptist

Church, which still stands there today. You get to the. You get to the, up there there is this large open field and in the placard that placard it says the flying dutchman and they're they're talking about howard uh and it's the flying they're the surprise of this you know i mean so it's it's on and it's jackson and they're they're on that extreme right flank and these guys are not prepared so what do they do they run and they just they get their stuff and of course what's do for like the guys with Jackson and they see them running it's like giddy up buddy you know what I mean like these guys are on it it's like unleashing the wolves man and they're just rolling them up and then you could imagine all the other core and the other divisions of like if you they're seeing

dudes running and they don't know why they're running they're already getting scared like you know if I just got it from the table I just start running and we run through the gym downstairs people were like why the hell are JD and Jaco running yeah Even though they don't know what's going on, some of them are going to start running. Yeah. You know that panic, I know is I've talked about this in World War I. They had to try and like get their couriers to not run because if a guy on the front line got up to run a message back, someone seemed running be like, oh, that's what I'm out. And then that's two people. Now it's three and it's 100.

And then you lose. Yeah. So that's what's happening here. Only they're running for a good reason. They're running because they're getting their asses kicked. They're not ready for it. They start running. You get a general panic going.

Right. I mean, there's a difference like me going for a run in the morning. I'm just running. These dudes are running for their lives. There's a difference. You know what I mean? And yeah, so panic has hit. It's hit with Howard's core and it's having a huge effect all the way down.

And, of course, the other side, the extreme left, like, they don't know what's going on. But you know who's like, I'm sure, like, is super. excited is Robert E. Lee sitting back over there at Cracker Box of like, you man, that son of a bitch did it, man. Like, wow. I mean, it's got to be like, wow, of what he has accomplished, of what that, this, of what transpired between those two commanders. And, you know what I mean? And all the efforts of all the way down to the guide of the, you know, the young boy that's going to lead them through and all the way out and around and moving that many people. people and just by sheer luck of like they got seen and just because of like what is wrong with

the army of the Potomac's officers man like you got privates and shit saying hey sir i i see a bunch of guys moving on the road out there and you start reporting it up and they're like man you're not seeing anything man go back out there and sit back down and what do they do when they get back out there like you got to be shitting me dude well i mean they actually do come out and even some of the other officers see this and as they report it up they're just like hey man that that's nothing. Nobody's going to go all the way out. Those rows don't. I mean, why are they not doing anything? That's what always just kind of really just amazes me of like, why don't they believe these guys? You know what I mean? Is it that much ego going on, man? It's the housewives of the Army

of the Potomac, like literally going on out there. Like, why do they not get along and like listen to each other? They could have stopped that entire thing. They could have cut Jackson right there. They had every opportunity. It wasn't like they got away and they weren't seen. They were seen. It's documented that they were seen. And nobody did anything about it. That just is crazy to me. But they get around and they're doing this. And then Robert E. Lee and those folks, so he's got his two divisions there. So of course, we're going to join in. You know what I mean? Because now what's that going to cause Hooker to do? He's going to start focusing everything over there on this extreme exposed right flank, the officers are going to start trying to slow down people running for their lives,

and half of them don't even speak English. So you can yell at them like all day long. They got no shits given. They're just running back to where they came from. And now you've got these folks that are now over on that, you know, that three quarters of a mile where they're going to start opening it up, you know what I mean, which is going to end up collapsing back their defensive position. It's a total shock and awe of what happens. But now, The heat tab, it's getting dark. Luckily, luckily for the union, it took them a while to get there and it's going to get dark. It starts getting dark.

It starts getting dark. And the folks or something, you got to look at it, man, for Jackson's core and the folks that he took around there, man. That's a 14 mile movement and then you're into a gunfight. And it's a running fight. So these guys, I mean, they're adrenaline and stuff. And then they all slow down. and they get, I mean, man, like looking at it of how close they are to Hooker's headquarters there. If you go there today, I mean, you are less than a mile from Hooker's headquarters, less than a mile.

So Jackson's crew made it less than a mile from where Hooker has headquarters set up. And then that's where he kind of like pauses, like hits a hold. Yeah, it's a hold. So he holds right there, but Jackson still wants to kind of get it up. Jackson knows he, look, he brought his guys 14 miles. They kicked their ass, but it's getting dark. He's like, we've done a great job. And let's face it, after you've done 14 miles and you've kicked a bunch of ass,

you're going to need to do a little bit of a reorg. You've got to get your shit together a little bit, get a headcount, get an ammo can't, like all that stuff's got to go down. Jackson recognizes that. So he's like, all right, hold what you got right here, do a little reorg. but Jackson also is like, I'm not done yet. Oh yeah, he's not done. So he wants to find out where to go next, what the next move is going to be,

and he decides to get some reconnaissance going. But because it's Jackson, he doesn't say, hey, Private Schmucketele, you know, you grab a crew, go out, tell me what you see. He says, no, I'm going out to look. Yep. So he personally goes on reconnaissance. Yeah. So he's going to, you know, everybody else from the commanders all the way down, you know,

with his division commanders, they're doing the ammo casualty. Their wagons are showing up. They're giving a reason. Because I'm sure that, like, you know, if you're a private with Jackson, they got no ammo. You know what I mean?

They're just unloading ammo. So, you know what I mean? So, yeah, they just, and Jackson's like, all right, while you guys are reloading the cartridge boxes and stuff, you know what I mean? I'm going to go do a leader's recon. So he takes him and some of his staff.

And instead of, I mean, he's got cavalry. I mean, you know, Stuart's there, for Christ's sake. You know what I mean? like send somebody else out, you know what I mean? But that's not Jackson. So Jackson, you know, it's dark. He's going to start heading out. Everybody's back because he's like, I'm going to go out, man,

do this little reconnaissance. I'm going to come back and we're going to giddy up and we're going to get after it. Like we're not waiting for like tomorrow morning. Like if they're on the run, let's get them now. And Jackson goes out. And of course, you know how you kind of like, even though it's dark and it's like on a road, you kind of like silhouette yourself like a little bit, you know what I mean? So of course now you got these union guys that are over there.

And they see these folks out there on the road. Well, they know it's like, okay, we're going to shoot at them. We don't know who it is, but we know that they're not with us. So let's shoot at them. So they're going to start taking some shots. So Jackson, in his recon element, as they're kind of moving down Plank Road, trying to get an assessment, of course, union dudes see them and are like, oh, no, those are bad guys.

They start shooting at Jackson and his little recon element. Yep. And they're going to break in. So they're going to break, you know, like north, well, you know, like north into the woods. So they're heading east. They're going to break into the wood line. And when they get into that wood line now that they're getting resistance, because that's, it's almost like as if like once they get shot at, now he can see where their lines are.

You know what I mean? So he's going to break into the woods and then he's going to start making his, way back west. He basically got his information. Once he's getting shot at, he's like, cool. Now I know where you're at. Yep. I know we're going to start meeting resistance.

I'm out of here. He breaks to the north, but he's got his intel, or at least he knows he shouldn't go out and try and get any closer. Starts heading back to friendly lines. Yep. And the mistake that he made when he left friendly lines, they didn't alert to let his folks know. So not everybody. Now, of course, except for like the folks that are like right there with him, they can see like, oh, hey, there goes Jackson and up.

But the like the folks that are down like 150 yards from them, they got no clue. And it ends up being it's a North Carolina regiment. And they're just down. And it's nothing against the North Carolina. So Jackson breaks into the woods. He's making his way back. You know what I mean?

He breaks north, gets into the wood line. He's like, hey, man, let's get back into friendly lines. I've got my information that I need. we're getting kind of shot at, let's move back. And as they're moving back through the wood line, you've got the same thing that we just talked about with the union. These guys from North Carolina, they see movement to their front. And they just did this flank attack.

And they know that there's nobody in front of them. They are the tip of the spear. So anybody that's out there moving, they're going to shoot at them. We just did an ammo casualty. They got more ammo. You see movement. They think it's maybe them doing a reconnaissance. against them.

So they start shooting and they end up hitting Jackson. So he gets hit in the arm. Yep. Bad. Bad. Like not a little, not a little wound, but a big wound.

Like he's going to need amputation. Yes. And he's going to need to get Casavac. Yep. So they start, they start initiating that, right? They start initiating. And the casualty evacuation,

I mean, casualty evacuation in 2020. 20 is not fun, you know, you're getting thrown into a Humvee, you're getting thrown into a helicopter, whatever, and you're going to be at an aid station in seven minutes, right? He's going to get tossed into, you know, a wagon, dragged down the road for however many hours. He's got 20 miles he's got to go before he gets to a rail station where he's going to be there sitting and waiting. I mean, this is not an effective, efficient casualty evacuation scenario like we have today. Right. And it's it, yeah, that 20 mile, like they still, the Fredericksbury running club back that we do what's called every year the Jackson Ambulance Route. And it's a 20 mile run. So you're basically going from right over there off the plank road. You're going to take Brock Road and you're going to go all the way down to Guinea Station, which is down. Guinea Station is right on off of the telegraph road.

Now there's I-95 is there. You know what I mean? And there's actually a marker. So if you, you know what I mean? So they're trying to get him to Guinea Station in the back of an ambulance. And Brock Road is a two-lane country road still to this day. So yeah, like you're right. Like this is not a quick fast medevac.

It's going to be painful. He's going to be riding. He's got his arm amputated. I mean, you know, and he's making his way to Guinea Station to try to get on a train to get him back to Richmond to a hospital. And he obviously is immediately out of fight, but he's going to die. He dies. It takes several days. He gets like some complications of pneumonia and he's going to die.

And the doctors, there's an account, the doctor that kind of was with him in his final hours. He, the guy named Dr. McGuire. And Dr. McGuire said a few moments, a few moments before he died. He cried out in his delirium. Order AP Hill to prepare for action. Pass the infantry to the front rapidly. Tell Major Hawks. Then stopped, leaving the sentence unfinished.

Presently a smile of ineffable sweetness spread itself all over his pale face. And he said quietly, and with an expression, as if of relief, let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees. That's some poetic words to be saying when you're on your deathbed. I don't know if McGuire, you know, kind of doctored that up a little bit. I hope to have some sort of, you know, intelligent and poetic thing to say when I'm on my deathbed. I think I'd probably be saying something more like, ah, shit, you know, like that's, but if you're going to say something, you know, let us cross the river and rest under the shade of the trees. What a beautiful statement.

But he's dead, right? He's out of the fight. AP Hill takes command once he's off the battlefield. He goes down wounded. AP Hill. He's medevacked out. And then Jeb Stewart takes command. And which is what's interesting about this is just like their secession plan,

which we talk a lot about in the military. We talk about it with civilian companies as well. Like you got to have a session plan. Someone goes down, boss goes down, hook. Jock goes down. JD's got it. JD goes down, Echoes guy.

Like, we know what we're doing. And that's how they're kind of set up. And, uh, Jeb Stewart. What's up with that? What's up with a sash?

How's that go? Well, you know, like you've got the, the color. He's got it. So the color of the cavalry is, is yellow.

You know, when you look around and, and even still to this day, like if you look at different, uh, patches, you know, we had that whole patches conversation.

You know what I mean? If it's like a red patch, you know what I mean? It's infantry. Well, of course, I don't know why they picked yellow for the cavalry, because that didn't go over well between the relationship between infantry and cavalry guys, because they're like, yeah, that yellow stripe on your legs should be going down your back because you're yellow. You know what I mean?

It's the same, you know, same stuff goes on still to this day. But, you know, so you got Jeb Stewart. It's a cavalry commander. And AP Hill goes down. You know, he's a division commander underneath Jackson. and so he goes down and then Jeb Stewart is a cavalry commander. He's going to take off the yellow sash. He's going to take command of an infantry corps,

which is pretty cool, man, of like Jeb Stewart, but then he's going to get rid of his colors. He's going to take on the colors of the infantry. And now he's an infantry commander, which is, that's pretty cool, man, when you're kind of talking about like what Jeb Stewart does. Because everybody always thinks like Jeb Stewart, this flamboyant cavalry guy, you know what I mean, he's too cool for school kind of guy.

You know what I mean? Rides around the Army twice. You know, everybody's always got like some bad shit to say about Jeff Stewart. You know what I mean? It's just because they're jealous, man. The dude looks good. He's got good hair. You know what I mean?

He's a hell of a guy on a horseback. You know what I mean? And he does his job. And Robert E. Lee loves him. I mean, loves Jeb Stewart. So there's always that jealousy as well. And why does Robert Eve Lee like that guy so much? You know what I mean?

And it's just like, really, dude, get him. over it, brother. You know what I mean? Like, Jeff Stewart's doing his job and he's good at it. I mean, because, you know, at that time, I mean, the southern cavalry is leaps and bounds better than the north. You know what I mean? Just to who they had. Now, the north does get better, but not now. So, Jeff Stewart takes over and now he is, he's running the infantry corps. But that's secession. Like, we saw that rapid secession plan. Everyone's stepping up. something happens to Hooker too and there's kind of a moment where you recognize

it might not be so squared away for the union. Yeah, it's just like you know, you talked about like, you know, with companies and with units, everybody always talks about. Like obviously on the Army of the Potomac, like nobody's really like sat down and had this discussion. And even though there is a set chain of command, like everybody knows like who's supposed to be next.

Right. So Hooker, you know what I mean? So like I said, like after this, they have to collapse back their lines, but he's still going to keep his headquarters in the banging house right there at the Chancelville House, right? So he's right there at the corner. And if you look out in a in a southwesternly direction, it's over towards what is called Hazel Grove. So there's this grove that cuts through out there. And Hazel Grove, you can line it up with artillery, which, you know, like with Robert E. Lee and these guys, at this time, it's 63. They're getting pretty good.

And so these guys are within range. And Hooker is, of course, standing out on the front porch, and he's leaning up against one of the stanchions. And then, wha, bam. I mean, artillery shell hits the stanchion that Hooker is. leaning up against and just knocks his ass the hell out. Doesn't kill him, but he's got a concussion, dude. He's knocked out and he's laying there on the ground. You know what I mean?

And of course, everybody's like looking at it like, holy shit. Like hookers got hit. So of course, everybody, you know, typical, he goes down. They run over and they're all looking at him. But they're, you know, they're checking Paul. He's a lot. He's good. He just got knocked the hell out.

And then you got everything. everybody kind of standing around going, well, so who wants to take over this shit show? And so I, you know, and I'm always imagining like me being there. Just like with me, I always try to imagine like what I would be doing there. You know what I mean? I can imagine them like, you know, like, like, hey, wake up. Like wake up. But you know what I mean?

Because dude, you're riding this rodeo all the way out, brawla. You know what I mean? Nobody wants to take the reins of this one. You know what I mean? Because like you look at it on the Confederate side. Jackson goes down. Metavac out. Moments later, AP Hill, he's in command.

He goes down. Jeb Stewart's taking off his sash and he's taking command. Like everybody, there's probably other dudes behind Stewart going, hey, dude, I'm next, brother. Like, I want to be in the book. You know what I mean? I want to be a part of this operation because this shit's going down in history, which it did. Now, on the other side, everybody's like, I don't want to even be mentioned in the AAR after this shit. So, yeah, he goes down and nobody wants to take over this.

And that's because at this juncture, the union is full retrograde retreat mode trying to piece it together, trying to get back across the fords, trying to get back. They're trying to get away. Yeah, because like even, you know, even before that, so, you know, you still got guys that are down there in Fredericksburg, right? You know what I mean, on both sides. So after this whole kind of event goes on, they're like, dude, how are we going to to like, how can we like deal with this?

You know what I mean? How can we save ourselves? So they're going to try to send a note back to Sedwick and some of those guys are like, hey, dude, cross over, come up the plank road. And now you could get in and behind Robert E. Lee. Okay, that sounds pretty cool. Sounds like it'll work. So Sedwick is the guy that's down.

He's the union guy. He's got, he's still got like 40,000 troops down there. Yeah. You know, North of the Rappahannock. and he could go across the Rappahannock and go into Fredericksburg and start to move towards, it would be actually moving towards Lee's rear. Yeah, he would, so it's a viable option. Yeah, totally viable.

You know, so he could get in and behind. So that's what they're going to try to do to kind of like, like to save this whole aspect. But the problem is, is, you know, Lee's got folks back there as well. You know what I mean? He's got early. He's got 10,000 folks. And okay, yeah, the whole rule of setting the fires and stuff like that, they don't have enough resistance. Forty thousand against 10,000. You know what I mean? So they're going to be able to cross over. But then, you know what I mean? Robert Ely Lee and Jackson's court kind of have these folks all bunched in and around the Ely's Ford Road. You know what I mean? And yeah, his rear is exposed. And it's basically it's like McClough. and Anderson, those two division guys that they borrowed from Longstreet, it's their rear end of kind of what they're looking at. But that also allows, so he's going to be able to get across into Fredericksburg, talking about Sedwick and the Union. They're going to be able to get across, and then they're going to be able to start making their way up the plank road,

moving from east to west, literally coming in right behind Robert E. Lee, right? So what do you think early does? As soon as these guys start coming across, he's going to send the note to the boss. And he's like, hey, sir, we can't hold them, and they're coming across there in Fredericksburg, and they're moving towards your position now. So Robert E. Lee, got to call an audible. What does he do? He takes the guys that didn't go on the flank march, and he's going to send them down west to east. So here we go, like the first day of Chancellorsville.

It's happening again. It ends up happening, and they collide right there of what is now Salem Church. So it's the Salem Church Road. They get down there, and he's got his phone. folks, come down there, bam, blocking position. It's game on, and they stop this whole northern rescue operation of getting him behind. So now hooker's done training. Yeah.

Like that thought he's done. And Sedwick, I mean, they get blocked by the Confederates and the Confederates start pushing them back, back to the river. And actually, we get to hear from Elijah Rhodes. Elijah Rhodes was one of the guys pushing across the river with Sedwick. So this is from Elijah Wood I'm sorry Elijah Hunt Rhodes All for the Union

Here's what he has to say He says the next we knew the rebels came in sight And Colonel Rogers was ordered to the front With the second Rhode Island We advanced across a field to the brow of a hill And open fire Here our men began to fall And the rebels still advanced

Forward is the word again And with a yell we rushed on to the rebel lines, which broke and fled into the woods. Men were falling here and there, but close up and forward was the command, and we kept on, cheered by the thought that we were doing good service while our corps could reform in our rear. We entered the woods, but were stopped by severe fire. Here we fought for an hour. As I commanded the color company, I had the center of the regiment and a good chance to observe our colonel. If the last, the last, the last year, line wavered, Colonel Rogers would seize the colors and lead us on. The rebels had as prisoners

a regiment of New Jersey troops with their colors. We succeeded in releasing the troops and recapturing the colors. After the firing ceased, we returned to the hill in our rear and reformed our lines. My company B took into the battle 33 men, and we lost 11 killed and we were. We lost 11 killed, and wounded. The regiment lost seven killed and 68 wounded beside nine missing. Company B lost three of the killed. The regiment received many compliments from General Newton and General Wheaton and it seemed to be agreed that our last charge broke the rebel advance and perhaps saved the Corps from disaster. Captain William G. Turner and Lieutenant Clark E. Bates were among the wounded. Monday, May 4th, artillery firing all day. The

Rebels have taken possession of Fredericksburg in our rear and we are caught off from the river, but we have confidence, General Sedgwick, and shall get out of the scrape somehow. Heavy fighting is going on up the river where Hooker is trying to break through, but we do not know the result. It looks bad and we feel blue. And then the next day, firing is still going on and it seems to be all around us. Our wounded have been captured in Fredericksburg and nothing but good generalship can save. the dear old six core at dark we left our lines and marching in the mud uphill and down we reached the Rappahannock River sometime in the night pontoon bridges were laid and troops passed over

strained earth was packed upon the bridges to deaden the sound of the wagons and artillery our regiment was left to guard the rear and finally we crossed with the rebels dropping shell onto the bridge in our rear the connection the connections on the other side of the bridge were cut and the boats floated to the north side. As soon as we reached the opposite bank, the men threw themselves upon the ground and slept. It's crazy to think about, like, each one of those little events that he says in two sentences

can be an entire book. Like, we fought in the woods for an hour under severe fire. Like, you know, that could be a whole book, an hour of close combat with the enemy, and he's rattling off in one, two sentences. Yeah. But that's how it ends up. These guys, they get across the river.

They take in massive casualties. And the battle's over pretty much at this point with another Confederate victory. Huge cost for the union, 1,606 killed, 9,762 wounded, 6,919 captured and missing. for the Confederates 1,665 killed 9,081 wounded, 2018 captured or missing. Obviously, Jackson's dead and Lee upon losing Stonewall Jackson. He's quoted as saying it was like losing his right arm. Yeah, so, you know, another easy, like a cool story of like of Robert Lee. after this battle's over right there on the plank road.

They've got those, you know, you're just talking about the losses. So they got these prisoners. And they've taken away their weapons and all that stuff. And they're union prisoners enlisted. And they're like in the ditch on the side of the road. And Robert Lee is making his way down the plank road. And it's captured, you know what I mean, in history of where these union prisoners,

the enlisted guy, see Robert E. Lee coming. Like, he's coming right down the road after the battle. And these dudes are like, holy shit, man, that's Robert E. Lee. You know what I mean? Because they stand and salute Robert E. Lee as he passes them. I mean, he's pulling huge respect. And this goes all the way back at the beginning of the podcast. We kind of talked about the privates of how they felt in the union. like we'll take an old broke down mule for you know we'll trade you that for burnside you know what I mean

like they're looking at this guy man Robert E Lee I mean yeah this is a huge Confederate victory that just took place and I just always imagine because you know I've I've been there right there on the side of the road and I'm just like I couldn't imagine being a prisoner of war and I'm going to salute my adversary you know what I mean like that ain't happening voluntarily yeah yeah like dude you might get the morning bird from JD, but you're not getting me to like stand up and salute, you know what I mean? And that's just one of the things of, you know,

with like Robert E. Lee, but now Jackson's out and it's, you know, I mean, that's a bold statement to talk about one of your core commanders. It's like losing your right arm. He was right arm dominant. You know what I mean? So that's his dominant core commander.

He just lost Robert Lee when he, you know, losing Stonewall Jackson when he found that out. So I just, I wanted to share that about with, you know, the relationship between those two guys. And just while we're on the subject to prisoners of war, being a prisoner of war and the civil war was, you know, I mean, it's a fate that could very likely mean death.

It means starvation. Like, it is a nightmare being a POW in the civil war. Yeah, they segregate, you know, enlisted guys and the officers that's segregated camps. And probably the, there's like a like a, a B-rated movie. It's called Andersonville. And it's a Confederate Prisoner of War Camp. It's in Andersonville, Georgia. And if you're ever down there, man, it's actually the National Museum of Prisoner of War in the United States is in Andersonville, Georgia. Not a lot of people

know that. I mean, and it is a phenomenal museum. And it's all Prisoners War since we've been a country. It's a great museum that's down there. And it's right there. And it's right there. there on the grounds of where this Andersonville enlisted prison, an open-air prison, man. I mean, what these guys, yeah, I don't want to, like, there's books on this on Andersonville. And it's not to say that, you know, the Confederates were doing any worse than what was happening up on the union side.

I'm not here to debate that. But dude, Andersonville, man, is like, it's wow. I mean, it is unbelievable. And they've got the replica of like what it would have been like being a private and the gate, you know what I mean? It's like these huge, like if I was going to describe it, like you've seen like King Kong. You know what I mean? I had those big, big wooden gates that like kept Kong in.

That's kind of like what it's like, man, coming in to Andersonville. I mean, it's just horrific. I mean, thousands of Union soldiers died in that camp. One little strength. I mean, it's depressing. I mean, it is literally, I mean, it just, it crushes you. So, yeah. What are you going to say one little, you're like one little?

One little trickle. dream is like bathing like I mean the dysentery the it's open air there's no I mean like you got nothing this is Georgia man I couldn't imagine being in Georgia summertime heat just baking and you know they've got a they've got a deadline where it's like a two by four that runs off the wall of like you don't cross the deadline like you cross this way and like the I mean there's accounts of of like the the the young kids that are are pulling guard duty there, you know what I mean? Because most everybody else is up fighting.

So they got young folks that are there. And these folks are starving. And they would like drop bread on the other side of the deadline of where they're not allowed to cross. And, you know, and they got, you know, you got to be kidding me. Man, can I just jump across the line real quick and grab it? And they're like, yeah, man, go ahead. You can get it. As soon as they cross the line, man, shooting them.

I mean, it's just, it is Andersonville, man, it'll, it is, it's unimaginable. Like when I was at the Naval Academy, you know, we talked about that, you know, take Naval Academy midshipment, everybody goes, you know, D.C., the Holocaust, horrific events that took place. They should put them on a bus, man, and take those midship and down to Andersonville. I mean, because it, you know, I mean, it is, it is that level. It is Holocaust level. It's just my opinion, but yeah, it's a.

and visit the National Prisoner War Museum for the United States. But yeah, you're spot on, man. It is not going to look good. Yeah, so you get that respect of standing up and saluting General Lee, but that respect isn't going to maintain much further off the battlefield. And, well, like we said, Jackson's dead, thousands killed in this battle, and there's going to be much more loss because the war was. far from over at this time.

And we will continue with that on the next Civil War excursion. And if you want to support this podcast, go to jocco store.com, joccofuel.com, origin, USA.com, eschelonfront.com and v.O.N.A.com. And until next time, this is J.D. and Jocco. Out.