Jocko Podcast - Jocko Responds to Rumors of Being on Steroids, TRT, and PEDs. Jocko DMZ 001

Episode Date: October 21, 2021

A response to an interesting evaluation and analysis from popular Youtube channel, "More Plates More Dates", about the question, "Is Jocko Willink 'natural' or not."Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is the Jocko DMZ podcast episode one sitting here with Echo Charles. So I get a random text from you, Echo Charles, get a random text from Echo. And it says, the whole world thinks you're on steroids. Which I, there's no context around it. And I wrote back, why is that or something along those lines? And then you sent me the link to this YouTube video of more plates, more dates, which is the YouTube channel. and it's this video and they're trying to decipher whether I'm on steroids or on TRT.

So I laughed. It was funny. It was funny. And the like the subtitle of it is he trains three times a day, sleeps five hours and is fucking huge. That's the title of it. And it's funny. So I laughed, smiled a little bit, and it's kind of funny for me to people to think I'm on steroids or on testosterone.

It's a good compliment because I'm not. And I don't have anything. I don't have anything against people that do steroids unless you're like competing in a sport where you're not supposed to, you do that kind of stuff. And then I don't really, yeah, then you shouldn't do it. But I know a lot of people that are on, either are on steroids, have been on steroids. I know a lot of people that have been on TRT, which interestingly, the fact, what I'm saying right now

is one of the things that this guy, his name is Derek, and I've watched a bunch of his videos before. Yeah. Um, randomly. Uh, he's a well educated guy. He's a smart guy. He's pretty funny too. Yeah.

Um, but he, that's one of the things that he sort of mentioned when he makes his conclusion, which, the the conclusion of the video is and I've got the exact quote written down here somewhere it was kind of like yeah he's probably done steroids and he's almost definitely on TRT which was his conclusion which was interesting because the guy does have a lot of knowledge about this kind of stuff but it's weird because even as he was saying coming to this conclusion you got a lot of he he kept backpedaling a little bit but then kind of moving forward back

Pedaling a little moving forward now here's a deal I don't really care what it's I think it's kind of funny and whatever there's all you always gonna have stuff said about you on the internet but here's where I was a little bit concerned is if you're a person that's let's say you're a 18 year old kid and you think jaco is cool and you hear this thing then maybe people are starting to think oh well you know jaco uses steroids just watch this video or if you're a person that's in the military or in law enforcement where you're putting your job in jeff to use steroids or use these kind of drugs, then that's bad. And I didn't want to have that out there where people are like, well, you know, Jocko uses them. Because that's the conclusion. So, yeah, I wanted to like go through it a little bit and see how we ended up in this situation where we're at.

That's a good point there where I didn't really think about it in that depth where, yeah, who cares? especially nowadays we're brad take take whatever you like unless you're literally cheating on something something official whatever but do your thing um but yeah so if if you're doing it and everyone else is doing it and it's so like normal in life or whatever yeah who's the what's to kill that'll influence younger people less knowledgeable people to be like oh everyone does it even jaco this pillar of integrity you know in their mind and all this stuff and so that's how normal it is and you know it's some influence, it's like false influence, you know?

Yeah. So that made me feel like, oh, maybe we should, we should talk about it a little bit. Because that's not cool. Cool. The, so how that, let me just give my background a little bit, just kind of so people understand. So when I was a kid, I was a hardcore kid. I was a straight edge kid. If you don't know what that means, that means I didn't drink.

I didn't smoke. I didn't smoke pot. I didn't do anything like that. I was into hardcore music and I was what's called straight edge back in the day. So that's the beginning. Now, if I was into other kind, if I was into metal, which I was into metal, but I moved past the metal very quickly and into hardcore and got into that scene. And so I was in that scene. My friends were in that scene.

There we are. And guess what? When you're in that scene, you're not drinking. You're not doing drugs. So there's my high school years. Yeah. You know, like they're done. Then what do I do?

Well, then I join the military. So when you join the military, guess what? You can't do drugs. Now, I drank when I was in the military. I drank a lot. Probably drank too much. But if you get caught doing drugs in the military, you get kicked out of the military.

Even steroids. Even steroids. Even steroids. Now, again, when, look, people want to do. drugs I got all kinds of friends that do drugs I got all kinds of friends that do drugs I got friends that smoke pot all day long I got friends that drink a lot I got friends that do mushrooms and acid and all kinds of crazy shit and I don't I'm these are my legitimate friends but I don't do that stuff so I don't hold anything against

them and I got a lot of friends that have you steroids for sure and use steroids for sure people that I train with sometimes people People that are on TRT, I know all these kinds of people. I don't hold one single grudge against them. When someone beats the shit out of me on the mats, or roughs me up, and I think, well, you know, oh, that guy is on steroids or is on steroids, which by the way, they'll tell me.

Oh, yeah, I was, you know, I'm going to cycle. Oh, cool. I don't have any animosity towards that person. But in the Navy, in the military, you can't do that. And there was a bunch of comments in these sections that were about everyone in the military's on steroids, which was crazy for me to read. It was crazy for me to read.

But, okay, so I'm in the military. If you use drugs, if you use steroids, you can get kicked out. There was no way I was ever going to sacrifice or put at risk my military career doing the job I loved because I wanted to be a little bit bigger. And by the way, I was pretty big, you know, like I wasn't, I was good to go. I wasn't in this situation where I was like, oh, no, I hope I can, you know, be a little bit stronger. I wasn't in that situation. I wasn't in a situation where I was like, oh, I hope I can be a little bit more jacked. I was as jacked as I thought I could, needed to be to do my job.

Do you know anyone that got in trouble, I don't know, kicked out whatever for steroids? I know, I know guys that got in trouble. I don't know if anyone got kicked out. I know that it was, quote, hard to test for it, they'd say, right? They'd be like, it's really hard to test. So what they would do is they would take, this is alleged, right? This is what I'd hear. And this is the kind of stuff that I just need to hear this one time.

And I'd be like, okay, cool. What they do is it's really expensive to test for steroids. So they would test 100 samples. They'd mix them all together and test for steroids. And if it was in there, then they'd do an individual test for each one of them to save money. So I hear that. And I'm like, okay, so they're testing. I'm not going to do this yet.

And by the way, like, Of all my close friends in the SEAL teams, there's not one of them. I'm trying to think. I can't even think of any of them that was like doing steroids. I knew a guy. I knew guys that were peripheral friends. Like, oh, yeah, this guy. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Dude, he's juicing. Quite frankly, these were the people that were in some cases, it was like, oh, yeah. Maybe if I was in, we get on the shit, too. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you were, like, maybe you weren't as jazz. jacked or maybe you didn't like working out as much as I did or maybe you didn't you know you just were didn't have the genetics to walk around at 210 220 right and if you don't have that maybe you're like bro yeah you know and you're hanging around with a bunch of guys that are jacked so so

occasionally you said you knew a team guy a team guy who got busted for steroids and got kicked out okay well there you go you know there you go and I worked he worked with me you told me the whole story. He went down to, and it was weird. They didn't do it through a test, though. And this is how I sort of found out, I guess. It's not like I was looking for the answer for nothing like that, but this is how I found out that, yeah, steroids are no go. In the teams, at least, because he went down to Mexico to get him. That's where he would always get them. And then this, this is this story he told me where he'd go there, inject him in Mexico, and then he felt bad about throwing away all the needles and stuff.

So he'd keep like the needles on the trash and stuff like in his like bag or his pockets or whatever. Oh, the conscientious law breaker. I know. That's what he said. Bummer. Yeah.

And then so he'd have like the used like needles or whatever. And then he'd so when he came back they caught they caught them. They were like oh you came here for sure. This was like long time. Like 90 something. They being the law enforcement or something. Law enforcement. Yeah.

The border guys or whatever. Actually this is like maybe 2002 maybe this is one when I knew him and stuff worked with them. And then yeah, he said that and I was like, oh, the story was weird. Like that's a weird way to get caught, but whatever. And he got caught and then they reported it and all this stuff and he got kicked out. Yeah, that's, I would occasionally know of like Marines that were doing it. Occasionally, man.

But it was not legal. I do know that. Like if you got in trouble for it, you were getting kicked out. But is it the same now though? Because let's face it, that was a different day. Yes. It is the same now It is the same now

Now do guys have more knowledge maybe where they can like know how to skirt the system or whatever? That is possible But with me my friends Bro like and my friends were in good freaking shape. You know? We were lifting hard and whatever like trying to be jacked and you know what else? We're young and You know when you're 18 years old you're basically on steroids anyways because you have so much freaking testosterone in your system So we're big. So that was my Navy career.

I'm not doing something that's going to put my whole life at risk. It's not going to happen. So then I retire. And now when I retire, I got wife and kids and houses and businesses and all this stuff going on. I actually, that's pretty much when I stopped drinking when I retired from the teams. Now all of a sudden I don't have any of that type of friendship directly all the time. And I'm just like, and plus I'm a little bit older. and I'm looking around going, okay, what benefit am I getting out of this?

And it's just a totally different scene. So I didn't like one, I didn't retire and go like, I'm never drinking again. I just looked up in a month and I had like, oh, you know, I had a couple of beers here. And then two months later, I had a few beers and a couple drinks at this place or met a client. We had some, whatever it was. But then after like probably another year, I just looked up and I was like, oh, wait, it's been another four months. It's been six months. And then all of a sudden I wasn't drinking anymore.

And so that was that. And still was just like, I'm not doing any other drugs either. So that's what happened. And that's how my life has gotten to this point where I really, I haven't done, not even not done steroids. I've never done any drugs other than alcohol and caffeine, right? Which caffeine, again, it's like I use that at certain times. I don't just drink caffeine all the,

time. But back to this video. It's, uh, it's interesting. It's an interesting video. And it's, you can see this guy. His name is Derek. It seems like a good dude. Like I said, uh, I've watched some of his, his thing is natty or not. Yeah. You're not. Because Natty means natural. Yes, sir. And not means your, what do they keep saying other words for like enhanced? Enhanced. And then they got all, then I called all all these other slang words for, uh, it's pretty funny. Um, and what, what's your experience? with the sauce, with the gear, with the steroids. Yeah.

Okay. So, yeah, okay. Which, by the way, I actually mentioned this to you, too. It had to be a little bit of a bummer that this guy does this whole video about steroids and you're in the video and he didn't mention you once, bro. I was like, this is going to hurt. Echo's going to be crushed. Whatever, whatever. They mentioned in the comments.

So, bro, whoa. You made the comments. I think maybe you're up next for Nadia you're not. Yeah. Echo Charles. So I don't know. You tell me if I've ever taken. steroids because it's one of those weird things so okay so when I was 22 I'm 44 I'm

about to be 44 by the way right now I was 22 years old I was working as a valet I remember this and I was lifting and I was big at this point like right now I was 240 okay at that time yeah we were lifting you know my boy Squatty Lewis aka Scotty Lewis Conna police department I forget his position but man shout out yeah he it was me him and the other guy Rinda Brooks we'd lift and we were lifting hard that was like the whole thing. Bro, you're about to rat out Squatty Lewis for doing juice? No, no, no, no.

No, these are just my lifting partner. Oh, okay. I'm saying you can confirm with him too. Yeah, okay. After the video, I called him up. I was like, bro, all right, my numbers, do I remember this correctly? He was like, bro, he squatted more than me a little bit. And then squatty.

Squatty Lewis all day. He, uh, so anyway, so we'd lift a lot and, um, so there were other guys. There were like a number of guys who would, who would do steroids. Not that would lift with us, but, and they were big. and they were strong. And I remember I got up to 240 and, you know, in Hawaii, everyone's kind of bigger just in general. So I remember thinking, if I can get up to like 260, 255,

that'd be a solid, like. 260's big. 260's a big human. Bro, I have the picture of me 240. And the thing is I don't look that big. Yeah. Most I ever got to was 250. Yeah.

I was at Team 2. The most I waited was 247. I was at Team 2. We were trying to get our platoon weight average over 200. hundred pounds and everyone was just squatting. Oh yeah. And you know what? Even that we weren't juicing.

Yeah. We weren't juicing. Yeah. We were just lifting and eating. And I finally got to 250. Did a four mile run and I about died and I was like, all right. Yeah. I was not, my frame is not meant for 250.

Yeah. And mine wasn't either. Okay. So you're at 240. You're lifting heavy. Yeah. You know, you kind of cap out. And, you know, when you kind of, when you get that kind of game, because when I

stopped playing football, I was like 180. Five one ninety So you put on 60 50 pounds This is over like about a year Yeah, but there's no one that's complaining about 50 pounds of gains Oh yeah All natural all like for all that I mean you know you get your kid I remember there's a supplement called Betagen you know that I remember taking

Because my friend recommended it whatever oh well if we're gonna bring up I remember when When creatine came out yeah I was on the creatigen had creotine Yeah I think it did too I was on the creotene yep trying to get chacked yeah fully But here's the thing like okay, so the workout program that I was on is a very effective workout program It's still like I still do it today even just for maintenance But it is it is hard bro, you know what I just want to interject this thing when guys are in seal training right now They're not allowed to take They're not allowed to take supplements

Because I guess along the way someone you know pop pos and they're like well, I was taking this supplement over here and and so they just like okay There's what no supplements. Yeah, yeah Yeah, dirty batch that whole thing. They see that. So when you say like, are, is it less stringent? That to me indicates hell no. Oh, right. You know?

Yeah, yeah. Right. They don't even lay, do supplements. Yeah, can't even. We can't even take milk for crying out loud. You need to make a waiver for that. All right. Long story short, I was like, hey, yeah, some other guys that I knew and respected, like

they were kind of doing it. This is in 19, I don't know, 99 or something like that. And I remember thinking, yeah, if they're doing it, You know, like, sure, all, you know, so I kind of hit them up or whatever. And so they got me if I'm remembering the name correctly of it. Because there's a bunch of different kind of steroids. Apparently, I did not know this. And it was like sussed and something.

And it was like these little vials and then you got to get like needles. And they're like, hey, get the big needle. This, you know, the big needle, that's the good one. And I was like, when I was 12, longser, when I was young, I got a traumatic experience with a bunch of blood test. because they had to do a bunch of surgeries on my hand for some stuff. So they blood test me a lot and they missed the IV a lot. And so this is when I was 12. So I did not like needles at this point.

So I'm like, all right, I guess that's what we're doing. So cool. So my friend, he would, he stuck me with it. The first one, boom, puts it in or whatever. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like it's worth it. No problem. If someone else does it, you know, like, okay.

So I'm like, cool. I think I don't, Brad, I didn't do research on this kind of stuff. I just seen the other guys doing it and how strong and big. And I was like, of course it works or whatever. So boom, he sticks me with one. And I'm like, cool. To me, the next day, I'm going to be lifting way more than it was yesterday. Like 100% so I go in there.

And I'm like, bro, I'm not even stronger. It's like the next day. So I'm like, all right. Cool. So it was just one shot and then one, two, three days. And then the next week comes around. I'm not stronger at all. So I'm like kind of disappointed.

But then I'm like, oh, maybe it takes a little water kick in, whatever. Right. So the next week, I go again, I had another shot. Boom. So I go, I'm working out my sake. Because I know the workout is very regimented. So I'm like, and each workout, you kind of, it's like you're going for a PR every single day. It's for a certain amount of reps and stuff like that.

That is just the nature of the workout. So I remember freaking not even exceeding my old PR, like all this stuff. Like I wasn't getting stronger at all. And I was like super. And I'm freaking sticking, getting stuck with like needles and doing steroids at this point. So I'm like, oh, freak. all right so the third week comes around and I get he does one more and I'm like cool and I go and still nothing in fact one day had a bad day I got a week day I'm like this bro these are not working

but I'm like whatever maybe I just got to do more make it maybe I got to buy some more maybe it takes um takes longer than I thought then so my friend the next week my friend is out of town he went like somewhere and I'm like uh I don't want to tell anyone I'm going to tell anyone who I'm doing can you do this. Can you stick this in my butt or whatever? And so I'm like, I got to do it. I got to do it. So I'm like, so I'm sitting in my room like, cricket you. It's going to be a bad edit right there. That one. So I'm thinking that so this was shot number four I'm on. Right. I think the number was 250. Sust is something 250. That's what this compound was. So I'm like in my room like trying to do it. I can't do it. I can't bring myself to do it. I need someone to do it. But I'm like, no, I'm going to sat.

like I can lift. I'm strong. I was strong already. And so I think I'm like tough or whatever. And why is this needle defeating me? So I'm like, no, I'm going to do it. And I, but I couldn't do it. It took me like one hour to just give up and be like, I can't, I can't do it to myself. And my friend was out of town for like three weeks. It was like for the, you know, for a long time. And so I just put it away. And then, you know, you kind of reflect. Like, what am I? I, I don't really get what I'm doing right now when I kind of reflect. And then so I still had like three, four, five more shots like left in the in the little packages or whatever,

those are probably still hidden in the mattress in Hawaii somewhere or somebody found them or whatever, but yeah, never did. Did those three shots, no gains. In fact, had a fucking bad day. That's what really made me sad. Like I'm like, bro, I can see if I maintain and it didn't kick until later, but I had a bad day. I remember like thinking, are these making me weaker or something? It was probably because they didn't rest or didn't eat or whatever. They could, but no gains, no benefit, no nothing. No side effects, no nothing. I'm expecting to get right raging, you know,

because I was like, Cruz, I was pretty cruel mellow of a person. So I'm thinking, oh, maybe I'll be more angry and that'll be cool, you know, like more and more like, what do you call when you confront people more? Yeah. More like confrontational, you know, that'll help my little personality or whatever. Yeah, that makes sense.

me because it didn't affect. So anyway, that was it. That was my whole steroid experience. But technically, Echo, have you ever taken steroids? Yeah, that's it. That is 100% of my steroid experience. So I had a similar assessment. So I was on my, I was on deployment. And there was like guys in another platoon and they went on a trip somewhere. And again, like the reason I didn't bring this up when I talked about my close friends, like these guys were in a different platoon. I knew them, they were good guys and everything. But like a couple of them,

when they went on this trip, they juiced, right? And they came back and they're like, and the room was like, hey, these guys are freaking doing steroids. And I was like, oh, shit, you know, I'm thinking the same thing you are. Like, these guys are gonna freaking just get jerked. Yeah, hell yeah.

But they weren't. I was kind of like, uh, really? That, that's like, so to me, now I talked about the risk earlier of getting caught. I'm gonna risk getting caught and it's over nothing. So that was another thing and then and then there was a guy that was in the regular Navy and he was a freaking good duty. He was from, I wanna say he was from American Samoa Samoa. Super cool guy.

We used to hang out and he was jacked and he was telling me he was like, no man, like you should do a little bit. He was like saying you should do because that's what he was like, look man, I just do a little bit and it, you know, gets, you know, you should do it. me from from you know 205 to 225 brought to me that's a lot yeah that is a lot but then he was saying I just do you know and that keeps me like I'm ripped and but he was trying to convince me he was like one of the early of just like just do a a small dose and that what he was saying was small dose but again I was just like yeah dude like I'm already to 15 I need a squat more before I risk my whole career yeah that's a big deal to gain 10.

That's freaking crazy to me. So that was that. But it in, I'll say this to back in the, back when I did that, I was already 240. And the numbers, which I don't know if you're going to go into the video that Derek was referencing. But, and we went to some numbers. And I was already doing those numbers. Like that's when I was reached my peak. And then I was like, okay, let me take something founded myself to be like, yeah, let me take something to get more.

more, you know? So I did it or whatever. And since then, literally, that was, I'm 22 years old at the time. So since then, just going. That's all I did. It was work valet and lift.

So since then, but I got back. When I moved to the mainland, I cut all the way to lower, even before I moved, I cut all the way back down. In fact, I remember being under 200 pounds here,

on purpose. Really? Just to be more cut up and just, that was the look. Look, that guy. So I'm talking about what you just said, the video, right? So there's the, I forget what the name of it.

I think the name of the video is how much can Jocko lift? Skinny and skinny. And it's skinny knees is kind of like what I call that video, which is how this video by Derek starts off. And it has this little clip. And just to give a little context around this clip, the whole way that thing started was me talking about. squatting yes the reason I came into work talking about squatting because I was on a on

this on the squat train here well here's before even that this is important to know because Derek does gets this wrong in the video he refers to it as the podcast like we were talking about this on the podcast this was not the podcast it wasn't literally this was the point before the podcast before we start the podcast we're just talking trash and if you watch that whole video in the beginning yeah you're like saying it's weird I don't even feel like putting on headphones today that's how we start the video like this is not the podcast before we're doing it and then we're talking about all this book and I'm drinking coffee I'm getting things ready and all this stuff

is that this one where you say like do I look small yes that the video yep yep isn't there another video or there was another time where I was talking you about like do you even squat or maybe it's the same video the same video yeah okay yeah because okay the reason I said squat train and this is something I've talked about before I go in I go on different paths of working out, right? Like for a while, I'll just be like trying to do certain types of pull-ups or certain numbers of pull-ups.

Then I'm trying to, you know, do muscle ups. Then I'm trying to do heavy deadlift. Then I'm trying to squat. Then I'm trying to sprint. Like I'll go through these little phases just to keep myself entertained, different challenges. And also, let's face it, you get to a certain point. You kind of reach your genetic capability or you get close to your genetic capability. Potential.

That's what we call it. Potential and then you're like it's gonna put you know okay you get to you get to a deadlift of You know 495 and you're deadlift in 495 and you want to get to 500 all of a sudden you got about cool I'm not running I need to just eat I need to gain 30 pounds like you're gonna do some things that are gonna compromise other aspects of your life Your jihitsu game your cardio game you're running so I have you know I go on these different little trains, these different cycles of working out. And at that point, clearly, I was just like in a mode where I was trying to just get, get my squat on.

So I was front squat, back squat, overhead squat. And I was talking that kind of shit to you. Yes. And that's another funny thing is the dynamic of you and me talking, there's a dynamic there, right? And I'm trying to, you know, poke fun at you, make you feel insecure, have fun with the whole situation. That's why the whole video starts off with you saying like, do I look skinny?

And I, without missing a beat, like without missing a beat, I'm just like, yeah, are you trying to cut weight right now? Without missing a beat. Yeah. Like this is clearly just me. Like, I can't tell if you gained or lost 10 pounds. You know what I mean? But in my mind, I'm like, oh, I got a little insecurity over here. I'm to bounce on that thing.

And that's the same thing. Why, when you're like 405 for 10 and I'm like, that's good. It's the same thing. I'm kind of like, you know, talking. a little bit of shit making you feel like, oh, damn. Just providing some uncomfort for you. It was for 12, by the way. Was it for 12?

Yeah, I confirmed it. So, and again, you mentioned this to me. In the video, I'm like, yeah, I'm a little below there. And then Derek on the video, what's he talking? 375. And then later in the video, oh, it was for 10 on the video. Yeah, yeah, sir. Later in the video, I'm like, that would really hurt me.

Because I started thinking about it because the conversation went a little bit from me just talking shit and to you into like a serious conversation. I'm like, hey, 375 for 10 would hurt me. That being said, I went and checked. I was like going through some of my records and I found because I do 10 reps for me is not something I would normally do. I do 20 reps. And I was looking at some of my old numbers and 305 for 20. It was like something that I have done. 385 for 20 and there's a that's a that's a heavy freaking squaw for 20 oh sorry 285 what

I say 385 yeah no I didn't do that well and here's the thing this is a good point too that you I think it's important to realize it's subtle but it's a big deal where we were not and this is why I mentioned this wasn't part of the podcast if this was part of the podcast you better get your numbers right but we're talking shit just like it literally like whether that got recorded or didn't get recorded there is no difference given the important of the information that we're going back and forth. Just like literally when I said, when I'm like doing this and I'm like, do I look smaller?

And you're like, yeah. Are you couldn't wait waiting? Like all this stuff. You're totally lying. It's like this is an unofficial off the record conversation 100%. So more than that, a shit talking. If you were like, hey, Jocko, I want to improve my squat. What should I do?

I wouldn't be like, bro, you need to, you know, here. If you can't do 405 for 10, you're weak. I wouldn't say it. I'd be like, well, where are you out right now? Hey, if you're getting this, that's freaking legit. blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So it was a shit talking evolution anyways.

But I also say in that, and he plays this part where I'm like, I'm not strong. Right. I say that. I'm not strong. And then we talk about cross. I'm like talking about what the crossfitters can do. And yeah. So there's.

Yeah. So I'm not strong. Just to make that point. Yeah. I'm not super strong. And even you, you'll be like, I think you're strong. Somebody made fun of that. Somebody made for the take.

I think you're strong. And you know why you think I'm strong? Because you do jih Tzu with me. And I have technique in jiu-jitsu. And I also have medium twitch muscles. True. I have medium twitch muscles. So I can hold a lot of pressure for a long time.

Okay. That makes sense. Not, not explosive. Would you say I'm explosive? I would not say explosive. Would you say I'm strong? Yes, sir. Yes, that's it because I have me.

And I remember, I don't quote me on this, but the theory or the discovery of medium twitch muscles came out in like the 90s. And before that, I would be a guy, oddly enough, I wouldn't win a long distance race. And I also wouldn't win a sprint in my platoon. But if you put a 40 pound or a 60 pound rucksack on me, I would win. Or I would be much closer to the front. Right, right. Why is that? Medium twitch.

Not super strong, not super endurance, somewhere in the middle. Which means I don't really have the genetic capability to be snatching double body weight or whatever. Like that's just, it's very hard for me to do that. Yeah. So there you have it. There's some funny, he reads, the dude Derek reads a bunch of the little quotes from inside. There's a Reddit thread on this as well. 100 milligrams of accountability.

Efficacious dose of discipline. Scoop of getting after it. Ownership deployed. HGH for that huge head. And he says all kinds of fun. He's like, alpha as fuck composure, bro. So there's that. Um, he's, so then he talks about the fact that I work out three times a day.

And then puts the own spin on it of working out hardcore three times a day, which is a lot different than me saying, ah, I work out, I lift. I run or surf and I do jiu jit-to and I do that every day. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's an accurate thing. This isn't like, hey, I'm blasting legs and squats in the morning. and then I'm doing freaking deadlifts at noon and then I'm doing power cleans in the evening and I'm doing all those for max reps or psychometcons. I'm not doing that.

So that's misleading. And if that's somebody that took me saying, hey, you know, I guess it's wrong for me to say I work out three times a day. What would be good is like I exercise three times a day or something like that. So I feel like I might have misled Derek on that one.

But it's also the title. You know, that's the title of this Reddit thread that he's talking about. It says five hours of sleep a night. And look, I don't need to sleep a lot. That is a fact. It's not even a good fact. It's just the reality of the situation.

The other day, like if I go to bed early, I wake up early. You know, it's not like I go to bed and if I go to bed at nine, I wake up at 4.30, or I go to bed at 8 and I wake up at 4.30, I don't. My body doesn't need that much sleep. You know, there's all kinds of little funny stories from when I was in the teams about me not sleeping.

I know sleep is good for you. I usually sleep more than five hours a night. I usually go to bed around 10, and I wake up at 4.30. So what is that? That's six and a half hours of sleep, bro. So again, do I sometimes go to bed at 11? Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

I do. Sometimes I have a hard time falling asleep. So I don't sleep a lot. I've never slept a lot. Two out of my four kids don't need a lot of sleep genetically. My wife won't get out of bed until like there's an emergency because she's genetically different. Right. So that's a genetic thing.

This isn't this isn't a chemically induced thing. Um, but that's rare though. And a lot of people don't know that. It's called fast sleepers. There's like this, it's kind of an anomaly or whatever where yeah, you just, essentially you go through your cycles of sleep just quicker. Yeah. And it's from what I understand.

Yep. And yeah. So, so the sleep thing, again, if you're taking that as an indication of like, oh, he must be on the sauce. Like that's probably why he got that feeling. Hey, well, this guy doesn't sleep punch. So there's already a couple things that are. Not accurate and again I can understand totally how these conclusions can be made if you kind of look surface

Oh works out three times a day. Oh that means he's doing deadlifts squats and freaking power cleans No, I'm not doing that and if I did that I would be wrecked right. I mean I would be wrecked just like a normal human And what's the other thing? So there's that. Oh yeah and then there's the numbers If I'm on that path these are realistic numbers you know yeah and it's it it it I think he took the numbers that we were talking about, which were really what they were, were estimated, like, predictions, almost like a... They weren't hard and fast numbers.

Like, even when you were like, when I said, if you can do four wheels for 10, that's good, good. That's literally what I said. And here's the thing, and I was explaining to Carrie, too, when we were talking about that, might have been Squatty Lewis,

I was telling us or both whatever. You had deep, you went back out witnesses. Bro, I had to. Squatty Lewis is coming to the stand. I had to. The thing was on, record at this point, you know? So I'm like, shoot, let me confirm, you know. Um, so I'm thinking back to when I was 22 years old, squatting hardcore. I think we're doing two or three sessions a week

of squats, one high rep, one medium, one low rep. And it was like, and it was a hardcore workout. I was 240 at the time. So I'm thinking, let me base on when I was really into the numbers on squat. Let me base it on that. Because if you remember in the video, I say, what do you weigh? What do you walk around at? Your weight? And you said, 2.30. So I'm thinking, okay, 2.30. I was 213 this morning. Okay. There you go. Not considering these three things, which I did consider in later on in the video if you watch it, where first off, you're older than 22 years old. Two, you go all the way down.

Yeah. I was going parallel squat, which was an issue that we were laughing at or whatever. Which is also something that you now have adjusted your mindset towards. Yes, sir. Because going in the hole, as we used to call it back in the day, which is below parallel. And that's another thing you just remind me. Derek in the video says like, hey, if you're just walking around and just bang out 405, like it's nothing at 45 years old, that's an indicator. And I can't do that.

Now, if I was like, hey, you know what? Oh, it's squat season. Right. Which squat season for me is in the kind of spring time, right? Because in the summer, I'm getting ready to go hunting. Yeah, yeah. In the mountains, right? At least that's been the last few years.

So that means I'm running, I'm rucking. And then that carries into, well, this particular year I've been doing these step-ups with a 45-pound plate. Getting ready to do that, Chad 1,000, which just extended that type of workout a little bit into November. And then all of a sudden we're like getting ready for the wintertime in the mountains, which means front squats and pliometrics and stuff. And then in the springtime, it's like, oh, you know, it's squat season. So it's misleading again. I'm sorry if I misled Derek to think, hey, Jocco is just going to walk up cold to a squat rack and just put on 405 and just knock it out of the park, you know, 10, 12 reps, whatever.

And it, I think this is important where when you watch that video and you really watch it and say, okay, what are we saying right here? When I said, and my standard was kind of off, which I realized later in the video, where if I say, if you can do four or five for 10, that's good, good, right? At 2.30, because I'm making a reference to a 22-year-old me at 240. Then after, and then you're like, I think I'm there, if not about there, right? So, okay, so when you said that, I think that's what people latched on to. but when you said that you were like that was just like estimate it was obvious you had never done that you had never like that was a projection given what you know you have done and then you made an

estimation and then you're like no about there so no I probably couldn't get it but maybe like under there if I had a good day in squat during squat season I maybe could get it that's that's how what I got from it then I said later I said later that would freaking hurt exactly right the more you think about it same with me the same thing I was like in I was like 405 then I was like wait second I was 22 years old yeah I wasn't going all right then I was like put it on the record 405 for 10 is savage all the way down you know you're if you're going to grass four or five for ten is savage is savage exactly right and then so then right after I was like well if you can do three wheels for 10 that's good that's good

yeah and there's a big difference and there is a big difference and I was like yeah yeah I get it I was like but you're going all the way down and and I'm considering all these things that I'm could that come up in my mind like that it's like bro that's a bad comparison what I said and then you started thinking even more about it and you're like, you're like, 10 would hurt me. Like kind of you concluded, no, I can't get the 10. Like maybe it seemed like I could when I thought about it at first, but after a while, it's like, no, that would hurt me.

Like I couldn't get the 10. And then you're like, oh, I'm not even that strong or whatever. Then you went through that. But put it this way. There's a difference between really how we said it and what was going on there. There's a difference between that. And then you saying, you know what? Yes, I could get the 405 for 10 or actually not the 405, right under the.

the 405, I could get that for 10 officially, like we were saying it on a podcast. It's way different. And if there was no difference, then you could be like, oh, well, Jocko can or can't, let's say he jocco can't do that. Oh, he'd just lie it on his podcast. That's not true. Literally not true. It was a whole different thing, you know?

It's kind of like, hey, like if you ask me how quick I could do a mile right now. And I was like, I haven't run a mile for a freaking years before time, you know, like to know. And then I was like, oh, let me estimate, given what I ran it, last time I ran, and then after you think about it and all this stuff. And then then, let's say the next day I ran the mile and I freaking couldn't get it at all. Oh, you lied, you know, kind of a thing. I didn't lie. That was the conclusion I made my flimsy conclusion.

Not to say your conclusion was flimsy, but I'm saying it was based on other factors rather than the actual numbers. And one more factor that was based on is me just trying to make you feel weak by being like, yeah, that's not bad. Yeah. And then you're like, like right away when I was like, oh, I did whatever I did. And then you're like, how deep? Like first thing. And even when we were talking about 40 times, you're like, what kind of time? Yeah.

I was on a roll. So we get through with those three sort of misleading things. And again, when I say misleading, I'm saying I'm misleading. It's misleading. If you do a surface study of me and you see works out three times a day, gets five hours of sleep tonight, and can freaking lift 405. for 10, squat, ass the grass, all those things

which Derek, you know, heard and correctly heard them. That's what was being said. Or that's what he saw. And he was like, all those things together. This dude's, that's one of the things that made him lean towards. And again, to his credit, the whole time he,

every time he'd say like, yeah, then he'd kind of back off a little bit as well. He could be wrong. He can say that. There's a bunch of other comments in here that were interesting. Probably Natty now, but no doubt he was cycling when he was active duty.

Totally wrong. Spec ops love gear, meaning guys in special operations all juice or love juice. No, not true. And this is from a quote, former infantry guy that knew lots of Rangers on the stuff. I haven't worked with Rangers enough to do that assessment, but from my perspective,

if you're willing to put your military career at risk, there's not a lot of guys that are willing to do that. This guy says hell it was unusual to have guys not on the sauce when I was in Cav Scout for five years again Maybe these are guys that were going on deployment and there wasn't really strict and there was more people doing juice I'm not going to I'm not going to say I don't know I don't know I know that when I worked with the army These were not people that were on juice like and I'm and I'm more talking about conventional army forces these are not guys that that are on juice. So yeah, some of that too is like,

you're in the military and you see, you see a freaking jacked guy that's in the seal teams. Guess what the guy in the seal teams is doing for his job? Working. Lifting, eating correctly, getting better food. Another guy says same shit as everyone else gets. They were saying that, this guy was saying that, like people in special operations get even better steroids.

Like this is how it's off the rails this is. And then this guy says same shit as everyone else gets. We aren't allowed to use gear whatsoever. People do it and everyone knows it. I mean, I didn't know it. Could it be that because I ended up becoming an officer that people like hit it from me and I didn't know it? I guess it could be that way. But I'll tell you, man, when you're working out with guys and training with them and all of a sudden they just like get super strong, I would be suspect.

I was very rarely suspect. Yeah. He talks about what I looked like over the years. And here his conclusion is like, dude, the guy has just always been kind of a bigger dude, which is true. I weighed 174 when I showed up to Buds. I was 19 years old. I weighed 200 at the end of my, oh, I gained 15 pounds or whatever, 11 pounds. I graduated Buds at 185.

Got my first platoon. I got up. We were lifting. our goal was to be bigger. I got up to 200, my first platoon. I got up to like 215, my second platoon.

I got up to like 220, my third platoon. And you know, these are like ages I'm getting bigger, I'm just getting bigger and stronger. It's like, you know, you went from 180 to 240,

right? These are prime years to get jacked. When I was competing in Jiu-Jitsu now, we're talking like 96, 997, 98. I would always be around 220 and I'd cut down to 213 so I could do the weight category and then the absolute. So that was my weight back then.

But again, these are not, you know, crazy numbers. I was at Steel Team 2, got up to 250. How? Squatting, eating, deadlifting, more eating. And that's, so he kind of says that. He kind of says that. That, well, you know, he's, I forget the terms he uses. There's no, you know, time where he's just, you know, goes from being 120.

pounds to 220 pounds. There's no time like that. And it's true. That was a steady, slow progression. As I got older, it got bigger until I reached about 225, 230, which is where I am right now. He couldn't find me talking about TRT. And then he found one tweet where the tweet had been deleted, but I had said, haven't tried it.

Somebody probably asked me, have you ever done TRT? Do you remember that tweet? I don't really remember it. But I saw it. He put a clip on there. And it's definitely me. And I'm sure somebody said, hey, have you ever done TRT? And I was like, yeah, I never tried it.

Because there was a tweet below it that said something like, oh, I'd hate to see Jock one more, you know, testosterone, something like that. So he figured it out. And yes. And then he said that was the only, quote, horse's mouth of me saying anything about TRT, which is not that weird because I don't talk about it because I have no experience with it. I don't, that's not something that comes up. And look, I'm not even against it.

I'm 50 years old. If I get to a certain point where I'm like, yeah, you know, I feel like shit. My doctor says to me, hey, Jocko, this is going to make you perform better and do better. Maybe I'd be like, hmm, that sounds like a good idea. What I don't like about it is I know that when you do that stuff, you're on it for the rest of your life, which to me is bad. I don't want to be relying on anything. I don't want, I would rather be able to make my own testosterone at a lower level than go on fake, go on other testosterone. own and then have to be on it for the rest of my life like that I don't like that idea

to me that's sort of a dependency which I don't like so but but again when I'm 60 and all of a sudden I'm really weak or whatever I have issues I'm you know I'll be like hey guys I'm going on TRT right now I want to be stronger which would be fine so that's why maybe he hasn't found a lot about me talking about it and again I got friends that do TRT that talk about TRT I've just never done it if I did I wouldn't be ashamed of it I'd be like hey this is the situation I was in and this is what I did you know and when you start going down this path it's like mm I mean if I'm trying to like stay young maybe I should start by dying my hair black

which my hair is great I don't give a shit probably good yeah I don't give a shit doesn't matter to me no you're here to win yeah I Um, then he finds a, a picture of me, or there's a picture of me on like the Reddit thing. And it's me and Ted, uh, Tim Kennedy and we're sitting there talking or whatever. And we just got done with a workout. And there was, there was some funny comments. And it says, looking solid dude. Another guy says, alpha head, bro, fucking sick cranium.

Which is, you know, funny. And somebody says, look at his jaw line. He never needed juice. He's a natural granula. He's got gorilla. He's got Shrek genetics. Somebody says big, not abnormally ripped, which is totally true. I remember that magazine article came out about me in Success Magazine.

And they said I was a ripped 225 pounds of muscle. And I went and did a fact check publicly about that article and said, I'm not a ripped 225. I'm a well marbled 230, which is the truth. somebody said just by his head I don't know what's up with my head I don't know he said just by his head you could tell he's out this fuck but see some people are pretty like these people are saying hey this if you look at the they had a picture of me when I'm probably 25 and a picture of me now and people are like yeah look at him when he's 25 he's his head his jawling because you know when

people do steroids their jaw gets bigger their craniums gets or their a their brow like what is this their forehead or their their eyebrow bone or whatever that gets like bigger and more prominent this is just the way I look and I've looked that way since I was you know in my 20s in my early 20s and this guy says not necessarily cranked looking oh no this is what this is what Derek says not necessary he's he's like oh he's not necessarily cranked looking but a very fucking built dude a solid human who would be very tough to move if that makes any fucking sense. Yes, it does make sense.

He looks tough as El Tito Ortiz's superior older brother, which is I've trained with Tito. I'm not superior to Tito. Tito is a jacked dude. Like, what did Tito fight at? 205. I was going to say either 185 or 205. Tito fought at 205.

Tito was a freaking monster. Tito's six, two, and huge. He's a monster, bro and so yeah I'm just saying I'm not a genetically or physically superior to Tito Ortiz and he Tito Ortiz also had like the explosive type muscle right I have the freaking slow the medium twitch the medium twitch but all these things I thought that might that section

was kind of leaning towards like hey this is just a kind of a big dude that that literally eats steak drinks mulk and lifts weights that's what I that's what I've been doing for a freaking long time right yeah this I'm not a guy that like goes on guy I'm gonna work out for I'm not that guy I'm not a guy that goes hey I'm gonna work out for a little while and then I'm gonna you know rich get into painting right no I've been lifting you know whether it's calisthenics whether it's polyometrics whether it's squatting whether it's cleans whether it's doing pulse like that's all in the that's all in the freaking in the element you know um then he goes in this weird tangent into jiu jitsu

Uh, got it got a thing with me and going against Jeff Monson. Yeah. And Jeff Monson is, he calls him all kinds of, calls him all kinds of funny names. Uh, and, and Jeff Monson is an incredible grappler. He's a monstrous guy who's pop positive for steroids before. I'm not sure. I'm, I shouldn't say that. I'm quite, I'm quite confident that he has utilized.

Um, steroids is like not. Yeah. So, so he sees me going against him. And what's interesting about that video, there's a video of me versus Jeff Monson. Unfortunately, the video is two minutes and 30 seconds long. That was a triple overtime match. So I forget what the first, it was like a seven minutes and then two minute, two

minute, two minute, two minute overtime. And it got edited down. We had a pretty good scrap. And Jeff Monson's a better grappled than me. And he's stronger than me. And he beat me. Like, that's what happened. He mentioned how like, um, he's a.

He goes, oh, he's a UFC champ. Oh, he goes, no, no, no, he's not a UFC champ. He's just an 80. I don't think he said, just an ADCC, or he goes, he's ADCC champ. Kind of like, oh, he's only an ADC. That's more significant, by the way, than USC. Exactly right. If you're ADCC Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi Combat Club champion, that means in grappling,

no punch and no kick in what you guys were doing, he's the best guy in the world, straight up. And if you're the champion, which he was. And I will say the two minutes and 30 seconds of that video, I look horrible. Like I see me now and I'm like, God, I sucked. And that's where we always, the goal is always to be able to beat you six months ago. That's always the goal. And that's a 15-year-old video. And I look at it and I go, God, what kind of shot was that?

Oh, my God, you look like crap. Why didn't you do this? That's just what it feels like when you watch old videos of yourself. So, um, I was in that tournament, by the way, as my first tournament. Oh, did. Yeah. Yeah. I lost to Jeff Monson.

But what's interesting is, he makes this argument that like if you're going to compete it if you're competing in this stuff which I was Why would you not do steroids like everyone's in he makes this whole thing about how Jiu Jitsu there's no testing for steroids and I don't know if they do now but back then there sure as hell wasn't any testing for steroids But he also says my physique's not that much different and I probably weighed in at that tournament at 220 because I was probably only did heavy weight at that tournament I probably weighed 220 and he said there there's no indication of the deployment of anabolics. And then he, but then he can't, like, he doesn't want to believe that.

He says, well, lead you to believe that maybe he's just using it for recovery. It's like, that guy wanted me to use so hard. And then he says, or he's never used it. So again, I think he's a little bit conflicted. But he says, look, if there's, if there's so much juice in the jiu jitza world, why wouldn't you do it? And here's one thing. I wasn't really a competitor.

Yeah. You know, I would, if there was a tournament. Well, when I was going to college from like 2000 and 2003, we competed all the time. And actually before that, when I was at Fabio Santos, Dean and I competed all the time. We were going to every tournament we could go to. We were competing all the time. But, you know, by the time 2000, but once the war started actually is when I started competing less and less because I wanted to be like ready to go to war. But for him, it didn't make any sense to be competing at that level, which,

I was competing in a very high level. You know, I did the ADCC trials. For him, and he used the words, he's like, I'm highly skeptical that I wouldn't, that joggle wouldn't try it, you know? Which again, this whole time, I'm active duty in the military, by the way. I have a job.

I have a job that I love. I have guys that I'm supposed to be leading and taking care of. And if I get shit canned from the teams because I wanted to be a little bit bigger. And by the way, I was already pretty big. I wasn't like 158 like God, I wish I had more presents.

I was freaking 220, 225. Sure. Also with Jiu Jitsu, I think it's fair to know this, where just because you compete in Jiu Jitsu doesn't mean you're a competitor pursuing champion level. Like even if you can compete, especially back then. Even, I mean, now it's really like there are competitors and then there's, everybody else. No matter if you're a black belt, high level, whatever. You know, so a guy like in your position, you have a job, your active duty, military. Um, love Jiu Jitsu. Love it. Love it. But it's not

even the number one thing on my priority list. Nope. Not even by long shot. No. I'm in the fucking teams, bro. If you, if you, if you narrowed it down to your Jiu Jitsu goals, it probably wouldn't be to be world champion. It's usually not that. Now there, there's a large group of guys that that is their goal. Then you might start seeing, okay, this guy's on steroids, this guy's on steroids. Because he's pursuing a very specific goal and he has to go hard as hard as he possibly can. And he's going against guys that are not testing. Exactly right. He's going against guys in the same boat. Exactly, exactly right. But the fact is a lot of us, even high, super high level guys, they're not in that boat. Until you shift your goal to be champion champion, it's just a different type of

jiu-jitsu person. I was a hobbyist in jiu-jitsu. Yeah. That was my hobby. I was very passionate about my hobby. And believe me, you're not going, I'm not going to the competition saying, I don't care if I win to lose. I'm freaking trying to win. Yeah.

But I'm not missing a block of training with my platoon because I'm going to go and train more. That wasn't happening. Yeah, exactly. It wasn't even close. And just if you're not in the, in the jiu-jitsu world, it might, you might not know the nuance. You know, you might not know the difference between even when you say hobbyist, that kind of from the outside might sound like, oh, you just do it on the weekends and whatever. Like, you can be a hardcore hobbyist.

Hobbies is every day it's physically possible to get it done. Oh, heck yeah. And then you have guys who are just competitors where it's like, I have jujitsu and I'm doing as good as I can possibly do in jujitsu, hopefully become champion. And everything else is secondary. That's like, no matter how good or junk they are, that's like, that's the two pursuits, you know? Yeah, yeah.

So he goes through the jiu jihitsu thing. And again, that to him makes him lean towards. I must have at least tried it so I could compete with these guys. But like you just said, I'm not trying to win the world championship. I'm trying to win, but that's not the number one priority in my life. And then he goes on this thing about some guy named Dave Blasarian. Dan Bilzerian. Okay.

So this guy apparently went to Buds at some point. And this guy who went to Buds said he did steroids and said a bunch of people. A lot of cool, a lot of people did it. Which again, this is weird. This is a this guy. just went to Buds and he got didn't make it so you don't even know what kind of person this is I don't know why this he's even brought into the fold here other than you know he's like oh this guy Dave Bolzerian said he did it's like okay well this guy didn't wasn't a seal made it didn't

make it through training he did say it seems that he uh you you could get kicked out this guy this guy that went to Buds mentioned that oh you would get kicked out if you got caught. So right there, what kind of freaking, you know, that's like right there, that's all you need to know. Anybody that knows me, like, oh, you want to be in the seal teams? And there's a risk you get

kicked out for doing steroids. By the way, when I was going through seal training, I was passing the evolutions. You know, it wasn't like, hey, I got a freaking 27, 20 on the run. I want to get that down to

2640 and I'm willing to risk getting kicked out of the Navy to shave 20 seconds off my runtime or 40 seconds. You're never going to do that. I would never do that. It's a stupid thing to do. So again and then and then the same guy says that if said that a third of the people were juicing, which again, that's not possible. I could understand if more people than I think are on steroids. I can understand that. But to say one third of people in special operations are on steroid, that is not. That is not. That is. That. That cannot be true because I would have known a lot of them. Yeah. I spent my entire adult life in special operations. Yeah. It seems like you would know more so than Dan Bilzerian. And you don't know Bill Zarian that much, but he's kind of known for just his whole thing being just real wishy-washy,

real suss, as they say, as far as his stories and claims go. Check. Derek says that when I was in true, He goes on this random about how when I was in training it was less scrutinized like steroids were less scrutinized and I was like I and he starts bringing up Arnold Schwarzenegner I was like bro like I didn't go through steel training in the freaking 70s when when steroids weren't even you know we're just on the open market so I don't know what that point was and I guess he tied some connection I guess there was some big steroid Olympic thing that got a lot of scrutiny

brought on it but again I didn't really I don't really know much about that I will I if anyone in my actual SEAL training class did stories, I'd be totally shocked. No, I never even heard anyone talk about it at all. So then he goes on this thing about how my life is about stress, resiliency, and grit through adversity and a lack of sleep.

And he's even talking about lack of food, fasting sometimes. And then he says, whilst, and I like that he used this word, he says, whilst maintaining a high level of performance.

That's what sort of my life is like. And he says that it's like that I would benefit highly from exogenous androgens. Yeah, so he gets this thing about how, you know, I'm all about being strong, but going through adversity and having stress resilience. And he says, would this guy would benefit? it highly from exogenous androgens obviously pretty telling in my opinion that's what he says so he's like this guy like is all about the stress and getting through this stuff that's pretty telling in my opinion that's what he says so again it's not a it's not a it's not a it's not a it's one of those

things that makes him lean a little bit more in that direction and then he goes on this thing about how I was going against sauce fiends back in their primes oh talking about munson and not using shit when even the graces were using shit and he talks about the fact that hoist gracey tested positive for anabolic which I think hoist tested positive for steroids when he was

like in the UFC or something right I don't know but I know I think it was I think it was later I think it was one of these sort of older hoarse fights right right some different who I don't think it was a MMA match yeah yeah and so he said so then Derek says it's hard to imagine this guy's not dabbled before

to go into to go into matches with literal houses and not thought maybe I should get a bit of help. It's obviously crossed his mind a couple times I would imagine. And again, oddly enough, getting kicked out of the SEAL teams, all I needed to hear was, you know, that one story when I was younger about, hey, they take all the batches, they test them. And if you pop, if they, if they, if they find anyone of those batch test positive, they test them all individually, you'll get kicked out. Cool. Done. So This wasn't this temptation that was on the back of my you know on my shoulder all the time you should get a little bit stronger and by the way I wasn't getting out muscled on the jiu jitsu mats Right.

Monston wasn't tossing me around. Yeah. No at no time did I feel like a little bit more strength would make me better. I was To be contended with also too with the steroids in jiu jitzu a lot of times sure the guys are a little bit bigger a little bit stronger but like how you kind of alluded to, that's less of a factor. Like the real factor with steroids guy versus no steroids guy is the guy can just turn up the pace and keep it going and wear out the guy way quicker and where the guy's just less effective because there's way less energy more so than. And he wasn't doing that either.

Like he didn't like turn up the pace where you couldn't keep up. That wasn't going on either. It was just simply a jiu-jitsu match that he ended up winning, not by a lot like, you know, in the overtime or whatever. But it was it was clearly not a match between. steroids versus not steroids who wasn't that he didn't beat me because of strength he beat now if I had been 10 times or three times stronger than him sure but he beat me because he's a better grappler than me he he wrestled he's he's the

ADCC champion of the world that's why I got beat and let's see he goes he goes back to the he goes back to the the skinny knees video sure and starts kind of breaking that down a little bit he says that I'm 511 2 30 which is what we kind of discuss on that and then he says this interesting thing he says he says that I jocco was built like this the the whole time the entirety of his historical data represents that when he looks at me and sees pictures of me when I'm younger I always kind of look this way he says there's no massive aberration and body composition always been a husky mild house of a dude, which is, I would say a factually accurate statement.

Go's, we already talked about the 405 for 10. He kind of does a little bit of a deeper dive than that. And we kind of already just talked through that. That's a shit talking combined with an assessment. Estimation. An estimation. And that was that. Well, he also says,

He says, I can't imagine this is legit when he says, I haven't tried it. I would probably call bullshit on it. So many times he would have benefited from it so much more than 99% of other humans. It's hard to believe you would just grit through it with your fucking natural crashed hormones, which ultimately will be with the amount of stress you are undergoing with the amount of sheer environmental factors that he is imposed upon himself. so he's saying that just the life I've lived has been stressful and hard on my mental status hard on my hormones and my hormones are all jacked up so why would why would I try and grit through this with my own what does he call it fucking natural crashed hormones and what is this one? Yeah, so that's what he's made.

That's what it makes him think. Yeah. And he thinks there's just no way that it makes sense for me to not do that. Um, he gets, then he finds a video of me shooting an arrow. He says, he's like, oh, yeah. And here's, here's a video of him with no shirt on. And it's, he's shooting an arrow with his alpha fucking head. So that was kind of funny.

He reads through some more comments that I'm a genetic outlier that it's TRT. One person says, sauced out of his mind. Another guy says he's 50. Definitely some exonogist exodus. Exogenous compounds in play. Someone else says steroids take Jocko. Someone says this,

Jocko wouldn't risk his career. That's an accurate statement. That's the most. that that probably is the root for me of never doing steroids or any other drugs at least for the 20 years that I was in the in the seal teams I'm not risking that and then I get out and who what am I doing am I getting beat up on the jihitsumat no am I weak no am I having a hard time getting out of bed no I feel freaking great so why am I all all of a sudden thinking, you know, you and I, you and I were training hardcore. Were you ever thinking yourself, well, you know, I could just kind of power out of this

if Jocko gets me, you know what I mean? I didn't feel, oh, I better get stronger so I can do better against Echo. So that's kind of what he says. So I think this is my, he says, he says something like his, that odds are, Um, he, Derek ends up saying that he thinks I'm, you know, used steroids in the past. And he only uses the word dabbles, but and is on TRT right now.

I think he says good. And I think the reason why he, I think he was leaning towards. I think throughout the video, he kept saying things like, well, you know, he's always been this big and he's not ripped. He's saying all these things that kind of make him think no. Yeah. But then I think that the people that he interacts with all the time, like, who's his friends and his group, it didn't even make sense to him that I would compete in Jiu-Jitsu and not do steroids or at least consider him. That didn't even make sense to him. So for him to look at me and look at the training that I do and the fact that I'm 50 years old and think, yeah, this guy's got to be on TRT or whatever or is likely on T RT.

I think that's just the group of people that he talks to, that he's around. That's what his experience has been. And it's just a separate world than mine. And that's what he thought. And the fact of the matter is, I ain't. I've never done any drugs. And you know what I'm on? Mulk.

I'm on joint warfare. I'm on steak. I mean, elk. The elk has been delivered to the house. The elk is going down. Yeah, so you had your like the record so and because this is a significant part too about the claim of the numbers of squatting and whatever So consider this. So now you know right because you went back to your actual records. He did 305 for 20. Yeah, right? So I guess the question is and and I'm not saying for you to answer I'm saying for us to kind of consider as far as claims go If you can do if someone anyone anybody no matter how big or small if they can do 305 full rep squats for 20

Do you think they could do 405 for 10? You know, there's a little charts. Do you know there's a little charts that they make for this kind of thing? Yeah. And I don't know what the, how that would work out. Those aren't that accurate though. Because you need a certain type of muscle performance for higher reps.

I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. So that's right. Of course not. Neither do I. No, we don't. But if you estimate, you know, like especially back when I used to do,

I never really got into consistent 20 reps for any exercise. 4.05 is heavy. I would say 375 is in the game I think that's a Yeah But even that's not I wouldn't bet money on it

Yeah I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it Right You know Yeah but if you're let's say If me and you were like You know what we're gonna do this We're not gonna film Maybe we will film

I don't know whatever And we're gonna be like hey We're gonna do today We're gonna do our PR for 10 What are you gonna go for? You got one shot What are you gonna go for And if you think

I'm putting it on 405 Because I think I can get, you know, like you're not going to put on $450 if you don't think you can get it. If you think I can get it and you say, I think I can get that. Yeah, that's within the claim of not being like BS or whatever. Yeah. It's an estimation. Not crazy. Yeah, it's not crazy.

It's not crazy. Right on. All right. Well, that's it. Speaking of Mulk, speaking to joint warfare, speaking to krill oil, speaking to discipline, joccofuel.com. we talked a lot about jiu-jitsu you should train jiu-s-s-s-sor not about strength strength is not uh it's not out of the equation oh yeah it's in the equation it's in the equation yeah but it's not the total equation technique is a more powerful part of the equation you made a good

point though about like the circles that you kind of hang with the people that that you hang around the community you're in or whatever where um like if you're used to seeing people people on steroids or whatever, it starts to become more and more like it feels more likely that, of course they are. Of course they are. You can just take one or two little things. Even if it's kind out of context, it's like, okay, I'm not going to be surprised if that person is.

But it's the same on the other side too where, and I was like this when I was young, like, especially with, um, with other drugs like cocaine. I never tried cocaine ever. When I was living in Hawaii, I never even seen cocaine before. I came to the mainland and still really, I haven't really seen that much. One time I saw a guy and I worked at the nightclub by the way, but it just in my brain I hadn't been around it So I'm thinking of course no one's here doing cocaine. That's crazy. That's stuff you see in the movies One time I saw a guy get out of his car and he had like cocaine on his nose still and I was like baffled like oh my gosh

It's such a big deal. Meanwhile my friend's like oh Yeah, I'm like like what's the big deal kind of a thing and I'm like okay and it kind of dawns on you if you're not used to it Or if you're really used to it you're yeah, it's just a foregone conclusion like okay yeah okay it's almost surprising if you don't see it kind of a thing yeah so that makes it that totally makes sense yeah and even now that you bring this up even in the seal teams like I mentioned it was a book I had a sister platoon one time that was some of the guys in there that had a click of guys in there that were into that that did juice and so if one of my friends would have been like bro I'm going to go on the sauce I'd be I'd be very surprised by that yeah

but if one of those guys was going on the sauce I'd think oh well that's that's their crew. So, and it's the same thing with TRT, right? There's a lot of people that go on to TRT, a lot of them.

And I know a lot of them. Yeah. And so to think, oh, whoa, if you're assuming, if that guy's already assuming that a bunch of the people

that I hang around with are on TRT, well, why wouldn't I be on TRT too? And, well, the fact the matter is, I'm not.

And it goes for lifting weights, like the numbers that guys put up. Like, okay, so in Hawaii, people are just bigger, and it's part of the culture, by the way. But I've seen guys bench five wheels and a lot of them too.

Like 405 was like, if you can do 405, you're like, okay, they can do 405. It's good, but everyone's seen that before. And in the SEAL teams, there's not too many guys that, number one, bench press very much, branch press very often. And certainly anyone that's bench pressing five plates in the SEAL teams is a freaking super strong dude. Everyone knows that dude Everyone goes oh dude he can bench Frickin 500 everybody knows that

It's so rare So yeah same thing If someone says oh yeah that guy can bench 500 And it's it's talking about a guy in a platoon That would be a lot harder for me to believe Unless I knew the guy right And what if you've never seen And think about who I was hanging with

From the year 1995 all the way up until 2001 when I left Hawaii Jacked football players Exactly right These big Samoans and stuff and whatever. I'm thinking back to the numbers. My friend Jeff Ulrich, who was like he played for the 49ers.

He was like, he was one of my friends. And he was a big, strong guy. And I remember, like, later on after he moved away or whatever, and after I lived here for a while. And I remember thinking back,

wait, Jeff ran a 4-5. He was 2505 pounds and 6-1. That's huge. That's an animal. Say those again. Say those again. We ran a 4-5-40,

which is 4-5. Yes, sir. A 4-5. 40 and how much city way? 255. This is a mutant. Yeah. And he's 6-1.

Here's the thing. When I remember Jeff, yeah, he was big and strong an animal or whatever, but not that. When I'm thinking about that, now I'm thinking that's an animal. But when you're in that community,

when guys are like 6-3-305, rolling around, and when they hit you, you just fucking die for three days. You know, and that's the norm. And guys go in the weight room and, like,

they don't even warm up and they put two wheels on there and they're just like awkwardly doing it. Like, they've never benched before, but they can do it because they're just so natural. And that's kind of the norm.

Compare that to if you've never seen anyone bench 405 before. You see four plates on that thing. You're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that I did that. Like, give me a better explanation to how that's possible, you know? I had a CB chief that was with me in Ramadi, and he was jerked monster guy. His name was Biggie. That makes sense to me completely. But, yeah, he was, he was throwing up 315 on the bench.

Honestly, it looked like if I put, if I had the bar. Yeah. Like, that's what he looked like, jacking 315 for his warm-up. Yeah. So, and because, again, in the SEAL teams, guys aren't doing that kind of weight. Guys can't. And everybody, that rumor or that word spread, bro, Biggie was freaking benching 405 for reps. Everyone shocked.

Derek was inquiring kind of how much you bench. Do you remember your best bench? 350 was like my best bench ever. And my bench, my bench is weak. That was always the weakest thing that I had. Yeah, your squad is your gym. What's your best exercise? Deadla, squat?

I don't know, man. I benched 405. I talked to Squatilis. He said that he remembers me doing more than 405. I feel like I did more than 405. I remember specifically doing 405 for the first time. I did 315, 12 times, my best. 285 on the incline.

285 15 times yeah that was my best yeah for me 350 was like a goal yeah it was hey this is what I'm working towards but I was I was never good at bench I was always had stronger pull muscles right oh yeah deadlift or whatever I was always seemed stronger in that area yeah my shoulder press was always my best one check yeah all right dude that's it that's it for the DMZ appreciate you all hanging out here in the DMZ with the demilitarized zone. Appreciate it, y'all. Check it out. Joccofuel.com, origin USA.com. Just go to jaco.com and get after it. We'll talk to y'all later. Out.