Jocko Podcast - Jocko Underground: Are You Being Sociopathic?

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

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This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 113, sitting with Echo Charles. And I want to talk to you about sociopaths, which a sociopath is a person, and this is from the sort of dictionary type definition here. Sociopath is a person with antisocial behaviors, including being manipulative, aggressive, superficial, lacking empathy, irresponsible, dominant, deceptive, impulsive, and root. How do you fit into those categories? Are you any of those? Me?

Yeah, I don't think so. I beg to differ. You think I'm fit into it? I think we all are. Okay. That's why we're going to talk about this a little bit today. I understand. Because are there times when you lack empathy?

Yes. Are there times when you're a little bit irresponsible? Are there some situations where you dominate what's happening in the room? Yeah. Can you be manipulative from time to time? Yes, sir. Okay. So you see what I'm saying?

Yes. So as I'm going through these, I'm like, oh, this is everybody. Yeah. Right? And what's interesting, I found that as I looked through these, I sort of looked at the, or compare them to the ideals that I talk about on a regular basis. And they are thankfully at odds with being a sociopath. So we all can do these things. We all have to watch out from a little bit.

There's also times where you like irresponsible if you're never irresponsible Couldn't you couldn't that just like dichotomy of leadership? Can you get to a point where you're not taking any risk because that's irresponsible? And now you're not moving forward in life. You're not taking any chances to get anything done Aren't there situations where you need to be a dominant player in the room? Yeah. Yeah, there are Are there situations where you need to do some manipulation of somebody? Yes, there are. I've got a whole thing that I talked about years ago about the what's the between manipulation and leadership and that how close they are. So there's all kinds of kinds of things that that there's all kinds of overlap and there's all kinds of dichotomies here where we have to know what our tendencies are we have to fight against those tendencies but here's what sprung this on me as I was I was

reading some stuff about this so as there's a website called psych mechanics psych mechanics.coms and they had a little section that was called things sociopaths say one of them is I didn't do that and it's so weird to read these things because as you read them here's the thing you're gonna know people that you know are not sociopaths, but you're definitely going to have heard them say these things, right? Yeah. I didn't do that with a neutral, neutral emotion.

Like, I didn't do that. You ever had somebody that you're talking to? Well, you didn't know. I didn't do that. Have you ever dealt with somebody like that? Yes, sir. Then they can escalate that. Like, I swear I didn't do that.

They're escalating it even more till I swear on my mother's grave. That never happened, right? These are things that a sociopath says because they think they can just overpower you. Here's the second example. It's not my fault, which is very interesting, right? This is clearly the opposite of the idea of extreme ownership, which is what a sociopath is going to do is try and avoid the blame,

avoid the guilt, avoid the responsibility, and make it something else or someone else. the similar one to the first one, I never said that. Also, you're imagining things. Also, you're crazy. Like you're crazy that never happened. Or you're,

yeah, like I never said that. Which is weird. Which is a weird thing. Have you ever had somebody that you know that they said something? And then they deny it? I had a situation with an email.

Where somebody, I was having a conversation with someone, and they were making a claim. And I was sort of, I was like, man, I was questioning myself. They made me question myself, right? Because I, you know, I'm a humble person. I know I can be wrong. I know I can make mistakes.

And I think to myself, geez, did I say that? Oh, wait a second. Well, that's what we were talking about doing. And as I felt more and more like, wait a second, I never had the feeling of, I, yeah, I think I did. I never had that feeling, but I was like, man, could I have said something like that? Yeah. Could I have been confused in the moment and said something like that?

And that's what the person's running with. Turns out I had a follow-up email, which everything was exactly as I remembered. And I was like, I forwarded it. And I said, hey, here's what we were talking about. Yeah. And they were like, oh, okay. But it was very strange. That's it?

Oh, okay. Well, it was a little bit more than that. It was very strange, though. It's a very strange situation to have unfold. Yeah. Is this is just they're trying to tell you something and look if I wouldn't have had that even this was this something that happened You know 10 years ago. Yeah

Luckily you got all those emails You know you got your whatever account and you got 15 years worth of emails So when someone starts saying you told me this Like let's go to the data here. Let's go to the facts But two important points number one that person who also had that email was telling me that I said something completely different and me I was sort of like well maybe I remembered it wrong or could I have said that I I never got to the point where I was like I think I it was very suspect to me but I was at least open to it and if I

wouldn't have searched my emails in three seconds and found that email and said actually here's exactly what we talked about so it's very strange that people can get away with that if there would have been if there would have been an email backup it would have been And he said, she said, and this is what we're trying to, no one knows what the truth is. Wait, so just to kind of understand and recant. So they said, this person said that you said something or said you didn't say something and you did it? Said, I forget whether it was said or did it, but it was something that was, here's what we're doing. And said, I said, this is what we're doing.

And I was like, man, I, and it was one of those things where it'd be like if, if, if, if you. you said to me or if I said, hey, Echo, you told me a while ago that you promised you wouldn't work out for three months. It wouldn't make sense to you. You'd be like, what context would I ever say that? Yeah, yeah. It was one of those things. It didn't make any sense at all.

Right. And even right now, you would be like, well, dude, I couldn't have said that, right? Yeah, yeah. It just doesn't make sense. That ends up the question. But even then, if I was like, Echo, you told me you weren't going to work out for three months. You told me that you weren't going to do it.

You'd be like, bro. And if it wouldn't make sense to you, but you kind of thinking, like, you know, we know each other and why would John will be saying this? Yeah. So it's one of those. And then you sent me the email like, hey, when we talked about this bet that we had or whatever. Yeah, yeah. You know, what I actually said was whatever. Yeah.

I'll only work out four times a week for three months. You know, something like that. Yeah, fully. And the reason I ask, because there's a difference between someone is saying, hey, you said this and you're like, wait, I wouldn't say that. No, I didn't. And then you, then they say, oh, like, here's you saying it. Yeah. And then on the other side is, you know, when I'm saying you, you said this.

And then you produce the email that says, no, actually I didn't say that. What I should say, dude, I'm really sorry. Yeah. Right. I was wrong. I must have misheard you, whatever. So that's something to watch out for, especially if I'm going to stick to my guns. Like when someone sticks to their gun, I never said that.

You're, and they actually, in this website, they had, this is gaslighting. Yeah. Like true gaslighting. You're imagining things. You're crazy. Which is really weird. Which is really weird when people are doing things intentionally to mess with you. It's pretty disturbing.

Another one, you're so sensitive. Okay. So this is a sociopathic thing to say. And again, am I calling everyone that's ever said that a sociopath? No, I've said this before. But what this indicates is that you don't see other people's perspectives. which is the lacking empathy part. So when I say something, echo, you're freaking bald, you look dumb,

and you're like, dude, can you stop making fun of my hair? And I'm like, bro, you're so sensitive. Because I don't pick up on the perspective that you have, that you've always been made fun for whatever the case may be, right? And it's also a way for a sociopath to dismiss other people's emotions and feelings. is to be like, oh yeah, I told you. They're all mad at me. They're so freaking sensitive.

You heard that before? Yeah. What that's someone trying to dismiss the fact that someone's has emotions. So, hey, and like I said, these are things we all do. We all do these things. And what I'm saying is pay attention to them. Pay attention to those words. When they're coming out of your mouth,

they should at least be a little red flag. Oh, hold on a second. You know, when you're talking about your kid, they're just being so sensitive about this. Hold on a second. I'm telling you to have a red flag that goes up that says, oh, wait a second, my kid is seven years old,

10 years old, nine years old, whatever, it might be a little bit, they might be getting upset, not because they're sensitive, but because this is a big deal to them at this time, and I need to be able to understand that.

So just watch out for it. Who cares about tomorrow? This is another thing. Would we just people that are being, irresponsible again have I ever said that yeah or something along those lines this was an interesting one this is uh I've never heard anyone say this but I've seen it in actions people are disposable so people are disposable I've never heard someone say like oh the people are disposable but I've seen people treat other people in a way that

clearly they think that they're disposable yeah clearly like oh You know, oh, oh, I don't really care if they get in trouble, whatever. This is a, this is something to definitely pay attention to. If you're treating another person like they're disposable or like they're not a human, it's a little red flag. You ever heard people talk about, you know, like the way someone treats a waiter or the help is a real good indication of their. actual character yeah I think this is like that yes that that's feels right for sure yeah when someone rolls in and they freaking treat the door man like a like he's a it's like it's like not human yeah just watch out for those people they got some

sociopathic tendencies going on by the way if you do that just check yourself I'm asking you to please check yourself yeah because you can end up in a scenario that you don't want to be in yeah Yeah, a lot of times, too, that will, it is what it seems like. I'm remembering back to a few times where someone would treat. And the waiter is, that's a good one because we all go to restaurants from time to time, most of us. So that's like a common scenario to be in. And then, thinking back to when I witnessed that, it's almost like they were trying to demonstrate their power,

their status, like, above them, you know, to make themselves ultimately, like, look good. Right. So it's like the idea of putting someone down to make your prop yourself up me. Yeah. And that's equal to or as bad possibly worse, but it's in the same genre as I just don't even pay attention to you. But you're just not even there. Yeah. However the it looks. However the whatever the execution is. You ever go into a place that I have like a coat? Uh, you'd give your coat to somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The club I worked at that. Okay. So someone walks into the bitter and just like hands the coat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just. takes the ticket and just doesn't even engage in any ways the person that's taking the coat. Yeah, fully. Got to watch out for that, man. Don't be doing that. Don't listen.

Watch out for it. A. B, don't be doing it. Yeah. And if you're kind of a, you know, the word narcissism gets thrown around. So we'll use it. Let's say if you have those narcissistic tendencies, even if you got to use that in a way where

to prop yourself up, you make others look bad. You actually make yourself look bad. And not in this weird, like, you know, moral, only the moral people will recognize. Everyone recognize it. Probably even other, like, narcissistic people. Yeah. And be like, oh, probably you kind of, like, you kind of look like a dick. No one likes that.

You know, no one's impressed with that, you know, kind of a thing. It's like, what's the opposite of being impressed? Like, is there something? The opposite of being impressed. So we're talking about you see somebody? Yeah, like, you know how like if you did something that does pretty dope? And I'm like, fuck, that's pretty impressive. What's the opposite of that?

I mean, I know it's not depressed, but like... I would just say like a loss of respect. Yeah, yeah. It's like that feeling. So it's diminished, diminished respect. Yeah, it's like you looked diminished in the same way you're trying to prop yourself up. And I think to pretty much everyone, it's a weird like, it's like, you know, like when you name drop, right? When you name drop, you're trying to like associate your status with this person's status, you know, kind of a thing.

But it like, it literally does the opposite. It's like that kind of thing. I would do. I was talking to Joe Rogan the other day. Yeah. Hell. Yeah. No, actually I wasn't talking.

Oh, what I was going to say is what you got to, we've talked about this, the self-awareness of when you. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jaco underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate.

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