Jocko Podcast - Jocko Underground: Getting A Decisive Victory

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

"Decisive Victory" sounds good.Can you always "smell" intent?Getting out of a depression.Fixating on the "What if?" driving me crazy.Taking Extreme Ownership with people who don't take their share of ownership of a problem.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is the Jocco Underground podcast number 88 sitting here with Echo Charles What's going on echo you good? Yeah, good. Thank you. Decisive victory Almost maybe you need to go in post and put some sound effects behind that maybe some like you know Heroic music and I and put some echo on my voice starts like decisive victory Sure because it sounds good. Yeah sounds good right? Yeah, it sounds good right? Decisive victory. Decisive victory is when in war or business or argument or life or game, one team or one side or one party or one individual achieves clear and overwhelming victory.

It leaves no doubt as to who the winner is. It can create a shift in the balance of power, right? So it sounds really good. And you'd think I'd be fired up just to tell everyone you need to go get your decisive victory I'm actually talking about this not to tell you to go and achieve a decisive victory I'm actually gonna tell you to be careful of going through life looking to score Decisive victories because They can cause problems there's some things to think I

Let's say you're doing Jiu Jitsu Let's face it in Jiu Jitsu there's such a thing as a decisive victory, it's called a submission. When you get the submission, it's a decisive victory. Yeah. Right? You won. You submitted the person. But if you're looking for that too much can cause you to take risk that's unnecessary. Now look, listen, I'm the guy, we're the guy. That's our thing. We come from the Dean List. Dean Lister going for submissions. That's how we train all the time. But if you're in a life or death situation and you decide I'm going to go for this submission here you might be going for something and taking risk that you shouldn't be taking or if you're in a tournament you might take a

risk that you shouldn't be taking so be careful on giving up position same thing in business you might well we're going to crush the we're going to crush our competitor so you do some investing some over-the-top investment capital investment on some thing to try and shut them down all of a on you spent too much, you leveraged too much, you gave up your position. So going for a decisive victory can cause you to take too much risk. It can also escalate the conflict. Because as soon as you start getting hyper-aggressive, the other side's going to dig in. They're going to start answering back that aggression. Now of a sudden, what may not have been that big of a deal that wouldn't have cost you a bunch of a bunch of resources,

all of a sudden now it's going to cost you a bunch of resources. because the other side digs in when you get aggressive. I mean, even in a street fight, like you go to really hurt someone, they pull out a gun and shoot you. Like, that's what happens. So you escalate things. You get in going for the decisive victory.

You're hurting relationships. This is like in an argument type thing. When I get to prove echo wrong. Cool. I've totally made Echo look stupid in that big meeting. Echoed actually doesn't like me anymore. It's like that old topic of winning an argument with your spouse. Oh, it's great.

You won the argument. Good job. Decisive victory. Actually made your wife feel a little bit dumb. That's great. Good job. Terrible. By the way, that happens with your kids too.

By the way. Kids become resentful. Because you're actually bowling. Like, if you're arguing with your kids about something and you scoffer. or a decisive victory. You're actually bullying them. So don't do that. You're going to cause unnecessary casualties, right?

What kind of damage are you doing when you're going for a decisive victory? It be beyond relationships, which we just talked about, but even in a business, like even if I get the decisive victory, but I've wasted all my money or I've burned out my team. Like, I'm going to cause some unnecessary casualties. What about my focus? because guess what when you start focusing on a decisive victory this happens all of the

you know when this happens in MMA going for the knockout and you see someone they're just trying to get the knockout trying to get the knockout trying to get the knockout trying to get the knockout they're swinging with all their might they're telegraphing their moves

and they're not seeing that they're getting touched up at the judges are scoring those touchdowns that that opponent's getting that easy takedown at the end of every round and all of a sudden they win 30 27 They got a takedown on every round.

Showed the positional domination. There's only 30 seconds left, but that's how you win an MMA fight. Hit a takedown with 30 seconds left. Do okay on the standup and then just take a guy down and control him for the last minute, 30 seconds. And you win. But what happens is when you have somebody that is trying for a decisive victory, it happens too with submissions. Oh, I'm trying to get that submission. I'm going to exert all my energy on this.

Heotene choke and then echo pops his head out. I'm gassed. Yep. It's true. Fake story. Not true. But you see what I'm saying. What's the trade-off?

What's the trade-off? That's something to think about when you're going for decisive victory. What is the trade-off? You know, oh, I'm going to get 600-pound deadlift. Cool. Decisive victory all over the deadlift. How's your four-mile time? How many pull-ups are you doing?

You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Like there's going to be a trade-off. Yeah. Oh, you're going to put all your money into crushing that competitor in one line of business. Cool. What about your other lines of business? So what's the trade-off?

You need to think about that. Is there another way to win that's win-win, actually? Which is weird. Isn't it weird to think of? Hey, Echo and I are competitors and I want to defeat him. I want a decisive victory. And instead I go, you know what? Is there a way that Echo's company and my company can actually work together and we can both win?

And maybe I win a little bit less, but I can also help Echo win. And then all of a sudden we have a good relationship. Maybe in two years we merge our companies to become the dominant force. As opposed to me, winning a decisive victory over you, you hobble away. you go and join another company, you give them your IP, they have the money to invest in it, they build it, and they take me over, right? I blew it.

Isn't it kind of a good thing if I can look for a win-win? We're negotiating for something. You know what, how about I figure out how you can win too? And guess what? What's driving a lot of these decisive victories is our ego. The ego loves the decisive victory. The ego is the most decisive victory seeking being on the planet. It wants to win and then it wants to raise its arms and yell at the camera at close range like they do in UFC.

That's what your ego wants to do. The ego, I brought this up. I don't think you, you may not know this yet. I was on a debrief podcast. I don't know if it's come out yet. Debrief podcast. The ego is a short-term tactical thinker. Yeah.

the the ego is not a long-term strategic thinker so let's think strategic how can I win with minimal resources how can I win with minimal effort that's jiu jitsu by the way right that's what jiu jitsu is supposed to be efficiency judo that's what judo is supposed to be efficiency I'm not going to use a bunch of energy against you you're you're protecting that arm you're squeezing that arm you're making sure it's You're not going to give me your arm. Cool. I just took your neck. How can I win?

Again, something to pay attention to. How can I win with the least amount of negative impact? How can I, look, Echo's got his company. I got my company. Sure, I want to destroy his company. Okay. But is that really beneficial? Or can I figure out a way to defeat his company, but still allow him to exist in a way that's

positive for the whole market? Is there a way to win without, with minimum negative impact, which comes around to like, is there a way to win with what's the minimum force required for victory? What's the minimum force required for victory? Can I utilize the minimum force instead of the maximum force? That's what decisive victory calls for. It calls for maximum force. What we want to do is figure out oftentimes.

Now, look, is there a time when you need a decisive victory? Don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. Yes, there is. You're about to get in a fight with four different people. You want a decisive victory over the biggest one of them. You want to knock him out cold. That's what you want to do.

You got somebody that messes with your country. You want to decisively show the world that that was a big, big mistake. Somebody messes with your company or with the people at your company in some way. You want to protect those people. You go after them. Yes, you want a decisive victory. But most of the time. You should think if that's really what the best outcome will be.

You should really think through if that's what the best outcome is going to be. Because generally speaking, generally speaking, decisive, dominant crushing victory is not as good. Generally speaking, as a victory that was gained with minimum force. Generally speaking, look, are there cases? Yes, there are. are there certainly are there's cases where you want everybody to know but most of the time majority of the time i'll say not most but a majority of the time think through what your options

are for a minimum force victory there you go yeah that long-term strategy thing is is uh you know obviously you know i very much value that especially nowadays So this happens in wrestling, MMA, fighting, all this stuff where, let's say we mean you, we're fighting for the championship, meaning you. Big fight, whatever, I lose to you. Whatever, decision, whatever, whatever. Now the short-term game is like, oh, let me,

let me go train harder to maybe beat him again. The long-term game is to invite you into my training camp. Now we can train together. And of course, we both get better, right? But now I become better. I can see like all your, you know, your secrets, your methods, all this stuff that not only apply to me competing against you, but me competing to everyone else or with everyone else. So it's like one of those things where, yeah, you'd never think that. You'd never think, oh, yeah, even if you beat somebody, you'd never think, oh, yeah, like let's invite him into my gym.

I mean, nowadays, I guess it does happen. It definitely happens. Yeah, it's actually pretty common in. But the feeling, you know, that short-term feeling, like, I don't want this guy in my gym knowing watching me train, knowing my secrets. Like that seems like one of those short-term ones that hits you right away. Yeah, that's like the old-school jihitsu. Right. Very good example is that old-school jih Tzu.

Yes. You couldn't train to someone else's school. Yeah. It's a crionche. Creonche. Yeah. I was actually talking to Miha today and we're talking about, you know, old school stories and stuff like that. And he was like, yeah, I went to this other gym.

It was interesting because they had this really rigid tradition. and you couldn't wear any of your stuff. When you came in, they had all these rigid rules and stuff. And then he's like, but when I rolled with them, they were just gaping holes in their game, very noticeable gaping holes. Just because they're so rigid in this kind of training. Incestual thought patterns.

Yeah, they don't, they don't introduce like new stuff from, you know, outside or whatever. Yeah, I guess a little bit of attention. But yeah, it's that long-term thinking. Bray, you'd be like, wait, what holes? Like, oh, I'm not rigid to nothing. I want all you know yeah and the the relationship things of like oh I'm you know we're gonna underbid this this construction company and so you underbid them you win the job

decisive victory now you got an enemy now like two months later you're calling them to see if you could use their subcont or they're their freaking drywallers and they're like no yeah that ain't happening so let's think through things Think long term. Yeah. Think strategic. That argument one is a big one. Oh, yeah.

When you're getting a debate with your friends and you're just like shooting down their arguments, making them feel stupid, like all this stuff. Especially in front of people, which kind of adds to your fuel, you know, other people watching. And then, yeah, they feel dumb or insulted or whatever. Yeah. And by no one's trying to hang with you anymore. You know what's funny is like, people don't really argue with me very often.

Yeah. But it's not because it's generally because I'm not. saying like well here's where I think I don't go I'm not going at somebody so if I'm not going at you I'm just kind of telling you like oh did what about this perspective and then when you counter with your perspective instead of me saying no that's wrong I go oh yeah that's a good point there's no real argument to be had right like is it not possible that there's multiple perspectives of the same item well yes it is yeah I'm I'm I understand that I understand that if you know,

uh, I understand that there's ghi and no ghi jihitsu. There's good points for both of them. Which one's better? Yeah. That depends on a lot of different things. I mean,

there's certainly people that will argue which one is better. Yeah. For a variety of reasons. I won't. I'm not going to argue. There's very few things. If you try to argue with me about something,

I want you to spend the next week thinking about what to argue with me about. Yeah. Think where you can get me to dig in on Like unless you're ISIS like an ISIS fighter or you're a communist Which even a communist like if you're sitting there talking like well wouldn't it be good if everyone So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko underground podcast So if you want to continue to listen go to jaco underground.com and subscribe and we're doing this

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