Jocko Podcast - Jocko Underground: How to Deal with Adult Bullies.

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

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This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 156 with Echo Charles and me. Jocco Willink got some questions from the troops. First one, I'll be interested to see your assessment of the first one. Yeah. Let's get into it. It goes hard. Okay. First question.

I work in a role where I often make final decisions on business financing transactions. I've worked in this role for three years playing a major part in turning the company around to the positive. we have an internal sales team who work on commission of these transactions and I have the final say if they're approved or not and these decisions are factually 100% up to discretion. There's one team member in particular who it seems cannot handle adverse decisions and goes out of the way to over the top, sorry, goes out of the way to be over the top disrespectful and insulting whenever there's a chance to speak to me without the sea. level execs around. Very small company. Over three years, what started as simply crass has escalated to outright offensive. Sexual jokes about my wife and two-year-old son. Outright just calling me a faggot and telling me, fuck you, first thing in the morning. Not leaving my office when asked and standing over my shoulder trying to make sure I'm skipping to his files. I'm confident in my ability

to physically defend myself, small guy with five years of jiu-jitsu training, not too scary. However, As a guy doing a job in finance trying to support a soon-to-be family of four, physical violence is not worth the risk, especially in the workplace over somebody who is clearly acting horribly and in the wrong. It took too long for me to formally complain about this behavior due to exhausting any other methods to de-escalate. But when I finally did, with a witness of our CFO, said they could potentially discipline this person, but basically implied I was being a big fat pussy over this whole thing.

by saying, have you just told him not to do that thing? So I went to the, you know, to somebody for assistance. And he said, have you just told him not just not to do that? Something thing. This has been going on for three years. I'm the awkward, laughable, and physically harmless enemy standing between them and their money. I believe that I'm trying to handle this correctly. I believe that the complete lack of support in the situation is reason to give up on this place.

the answer I got out of that conversation proves they do not care about me and I have no future there either that or they're just stupid maybe I'm stupid I don't know what's your thoughts yeah you're not stupid you're doing a good job you're you're trying to remain detached you're staying calm uh sounds like this guy's a jerk honestly yeah this guy sounds like a jerk he sounds like a bully and if you train jihitsu um i would i would i would i would i would push back against this dude um i would probably move his files right to the bottom you know what i'm saying what like was he was he going to attack you is he going to assault you is that what he's going to do if he does he's going to get choked out like that's what's happening uh you've backed down enough

you've de-escalated enough it's been three years and look i'm not saying saying get into a fight with him, but I'm saying do not get pushed around anymore. At a certain point with someone that's making sexual jokes about your wife and your two-year-old son, and this is a person that you work with, this is a person you interact with? Like this isn't some dirtbag on the street that says something about your wife. Whatever, dude. This is a human being that you work with and interact with. That's disrespectful and not acceptable.

Not acceptable. You make sexual jokes about my two. year old son and it's not acceptable you are not going to get you know that's not going to happen so yeah i would i would probably just uh push back against this guy a lot i would say yeah uh you're i'll get to your file when i'm ready what's he's going to get in your face you can you yell and scream yep i'm not doing it i just went one down one one one even one more down by the way like i'm not giving you this commission on this one. What are you talking about? Cool. Bring it up the chain of command. You know, you know, look, I don't want to, you don't want to do anything that's not,

um, do you want to maintain the high ground? So what I just said is not, I'm saying if the guy doesn't deserve the commission, don't give it to him. Uh, and, and listen, in meantime, as you start that process, I would get your resume ready because this place sounds freaking crazy for a guy to be acting like this and for no one, for it to be allowed to happen. You allowed did happen, that's bad. It's not bad when you allow it a little bit. When you're like, okay, the dude's frustrated. I'm not going to fly off the handle.

But three years, a guy making sexual comments about your wife, no, you can't do that, bro. Can't do that. And you know me, dude, I'm as unemotional as it gets, but you work with this individual. What's you doing to other people? This guy's a bully. So that's what I would do. I start preparing a resume.

You obviously are a hard worker. You got a bunch of experience. You've been there for three years. You know you play a major part and you've played a major part and turned around the company This guy's a jerk. This guy's a bully and I would definitely not accept this type of behavior from him and and you know your your boss that said have you just told him not to do that? Yep, you should Like hey, don't talk to me like that. What are you going to do about it? Well, I'm not going to process into your files You can't do that. Well, yes, I can. I got all these other four people. I'm going to do theirs first

Maybe I'll get tears today. What's he going to do? Yell and scream. If he goes and yells and scream, cool. This guy treats me bad and I'm not doing his stuff. You can give him to someone else. This is just unacceptable behavior, man.

Honestly, it's just unacceptable behavior. So, you know, again, the whole idea of like, I got disrespected. You've heard we talk about this before. Like 99% of time, it doesn't matter because a person that, that's disrespecting you, doesn't even respect themselves. They're trying to cause problem. They're looking for reaction, all that stuff. This guy's a bully.

He's saying things about your wife and your son? Like, unacceptable. It's just unacceptable behavior. And yeah, I would, I would, look, I don't want to go over the top and say like, you should antagonize him and make him get physical with you because that would be wrong. But you have nothing to fear here. Like, this guy's a jerk and he's being a jerk. to a lot of human beings.

So I would hold the line. I would not accept any of this behavior from him. I would probably have like a recorder, my phone ready to record his dumb ass when he does this dumb stuff and when he like attacks you, when he gets in your face. And when he gets in your face, laugh at him.

Be like, dude, you're an idiot. I'll do the file when I feel like it. I'll do the file in the order that got turned in. you're not going to move to the front of the list. Oh, what did you just call me? What did you just call me? You just said my wife? I'll tell you what.

If you want to talk that way to me, I am going to talk to our leadership about your behavior. What are you going to do? Yeah, I'm running up the chain of command. And I'm not going to do your file. And you can take it elsewhere. and just stay calm and he's gonna try and push you

or take a swing at you and then put him to sleep. I hate to say it, bro. Whatever, but we all think that kind of stuff. Am I wrong? No, you're, I don't feel like you're wrong. Okay. You just said record him.

Yeah. So. Is that illegal? I don't know. I think there's certain guidelines. Well, I would say, I would say not, I would say not clandestinely record him, but just be like, oh, hit the phone.

Be like, I just hit record. What are you going to say? I mean, for quality purpose. You know, just to make sure we, you know, for the complaint department. Yeah. What's that? Yeah, that's a perfect line. Hey, for quality assurance, I'm going to hit record on this phone right now.

What do you talk to me? 100%, bro. What do you do? And he's going to swear at you and stuff? Yeah. Yeah. So even the clandest, the spy, the record, look, I'm pretty much against that kind stuff.

Like, you know, like, invading people's privacy like that. It's like, you know how it's almost like what, you know, what's the freaking law? the illegal search in Caesar, right? You know that thing where it's like, hey, you don't have a warrant because you're going to start looking for this very specific thing. You're going to find some other stuff, but people with privacy,

I get it, Brussels. I wouldn't normally say that. But if it's to this degree, you're like, this guy's out of control, man. Yeah, this is like out of line deliberately. It's not like he got mad. Yeah. He's like what, like an under,

you know, Andrew Paul talks about this dynamic, right? Like the underwriter has to kind of prove these things. So that guy, and I would imagine he, kind of understand like hey some people are gonna get mad if I don't know for sure stuff I get it this guy's been doing this for three years yeah yeah so it's not like the guy's just sort of getting angry and then the guy's just all sensitive taking it personal bro this guy's getting straight up personal on purpose by the way saying stuff about his wife his son all this like weird

stuff and like so he he obviously knows the difference you know between taking a personal and straight up it is personal right so when it gets to this degree but I'm kind of for it to be honest with you because he's doing he's doing it for a very specific purpose you know where he's like hey I'm gonna keep this I'm gonna record this for I don't know, a month. I don't know, however long. And then I'm going to bring it up. And I'm going to bring it up in kind of a big way.

Be like, hey, this is like, there's some laws. I don't know, some HR laws. A month's worth of recordings. Yeah. Yeah. So then, yeah, when you bring it up in a big official way, if it got to that point, you know, right, yeah, I got evidence. I mean, hey, whether it's admissible or not, that's a whole not other issue.

Yeah. But we got the evidence. You know what I'm saying? But anyway, yeah. Put a little quality assurance. Put a label on it. Put it up on the wall. Quality assurance.

You're being recorded. Yeah. You're being recorded at this time. You know, I talked about this before. Sometimes you got to bark. Yeah. You know? Like, sometimes you got to bark because this, this, like, when someone comes to my house

and they hear my dog bark, used to be Odin. Now it's Vidar. They're not coming in. Yeah. Like they recognize there's a limitation to what they're going to be able to get away with. And it ain't going to be getting into my house. It's not going to be able to get in my deck, my back, my back. patio we got the dog door like he's coming out to get you yeah that's what's gonna happen so when you

when you hear whoa so when somebody says fuck you and look when they say it because they're walking down the street and they say fuck you man and you go yeah whatever dude like you don't even respond you don't mean say whatever dude yeah just just completely ignore them someone cuts you off and rolls down their window in traffic just fuck you motherfucker don't even look at them just carry on with your day like that's what we're doing when you work with someone yeah and this is how they behave, you got it. You got to put a stop to that shit.

Fuck you. Fuck who. You're freaking so right. You see what I'm saying? Like, 80% yeah, this, this dude's totally out of line.

Totally out of line. Yeah. I'm so glad this dude trained Shihitsu. So awesome. Yeah. That's a good little like, what do you call?

Like boundary, right? Yeah. Like, like the, I'm gonna say this again, you're more right than you know because there's that,

right? Where it's like, you know, there's so many elements to the values. you of barking as it were where yeah it kind of like indicates like hey I'm just not going to be like pushed around and stuff like that because especially when it's out of line like this but here's actually one that's more important even on like lower levels because let's say which is

actually pretty likely when you think about it because it's people like this where they have they have a dark dirty sense of humor you know and sure that sense of humor can when they get angry it can kind of overflow into being mean and stuff like that but that but generally speaking just at that that idol at that weird kind of crass kind of state, right? Where they talk, they swear a little bit too much. They talk a little bit dirty, you know, especially if there's all guys or whatever. It's like kind of, it can be part of the culture sometimes, you know. So if this guy's saying going too far and he's just like, whatever, I'll just suck it up and, you know, whatever.

He's, the guy's kind of like, sure, I know I'm being mean, but I don't realize how mean I'm really being because I'm not getting any feedback in that way. No pushback. No bark. No bark. Keep walking into that house. No warning signs. Exactly right. So,

I was literally talking to my brother about this today, where it's like after, especially if that's part of your personality a little, a little bit or a lot, and you just normally act like that and you get no bark, you are going to continue to do that stuff. And it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it to be mean, to be more and more mean.

Sometimes it's just how. Yeah. And no one's really like putting those speed bumps and that you kind of need to curb your behavior like that, you know? Yeah. I kind of have to just complete this thought. You know, because I kind of when I when I when I said you know when the guys says fuck you go fuck who fuck you Don't talk to me like that and when the guy now says to you

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