Jocko Podcast - Jocko Underground: The Reality When Your Boss Sucks and You Don't Respect Him At All.

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< 00:40 — How do I respect a leader I don’t respect or trust?15:21 — How do I solve problems aggressively without being out of control?27:22 — Should I keep pursuing more responsibility if it’s making work stressful?38:55 — How do I stay calm when my kids are melting down?54:38 — How important is competing in Jiu-Jitsu, and is it worth the injury risk?Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is the Janko underground podcast number 230 sitting here with Echo Charles and me. Janko Willink, we have got some questions from the front lines from you out there where the rubber meets the road in the trenches. And we have some answers. We have some suggestions. And at a minimum, we've got some courses of action that you can follow to navigate through this maze. That's true. All right. Let's get into it.

Right on first question, Jocco. I am an experienced paramedic on a strong season team that takes pride in our work. One newer paramedic has developed a reputation for being lazy, dishonest, hostile to feedback, and openly admitting he doesn't meet patient care standards. Despite lacking the respect of nearly everyone on our shift, including several battalion chiefs, he was recently promoted to sergeant and is training to fill in as battalion. Chief largely due to his relationship with management. How do you respect someone's leadership position when you don't respect or trust the person

holding it? Well, thanks for your service. I know that it's tough work out there being a paramedic. You know, there's a scene in Band of Brothers where Major Dick Winters, this is when he's become a major to later in the show. He's not a lieutenant anymore, subordinate to Captain Sobel. and they see each other. And Captain Sorbel, like, doesn't want to salute him,

doesn't want to give him that respect. And Dick Winters calls him out and says, we salute the rank, not the man. And it's very interesting, because he's saying in the clear, in broad daylight. Broad daylight. Hey, I know you don't respect me. That's okay.

We salute the rank, not the man. That's what he's saying. He's like, okay, hey, don't have to respect me. That's right. Which is weird. I'm not saying I love that idea, right? But that's what he's saying. And there is a component of that.

Well, actually, I do. It's a weird situation, but his message is correct. Now, what would I have done? I'd have been like, hey, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, you got to let that guy just. If you were the- If I was major winners and I saw him, you know,

and saw him trying not to make eye contact and avoid me, I'm not going to call him out. I just don't, you know, don't really care. Right. And that guy's already, I mean, he, he literally killed himself in real life, you know. So the guy already has issues. You know, I don't feel like I need to like make him salute me. But I understand, you know.

But there is a component with Dick Winters of like, hey, this is the military. And we've got people, if you're not going to follow the protocols here, that's problematic. There would sometimes be an interesting dynamic in the military that, I would see which was, let's say you were, let's say you were a chief, right? And as a chief, you kind of really flexed that, that authority that you had from being a chief. Like, hey, I'm a chief. You better, hey, I'm the chief. I'm the chief, I'm a chief, petty officer.

I'm an E7, like that kind of stuff. Well, if you're going to play that game, guess what game you also have to play? Oh, this person's an officer. Well, I'm a lieutenant. You know what I mean? so if you start playing the rank game you got to that's you're locked in you know live by the sword die by the sword you know if you want to play the rank game i i interacted with a guy that was very much like that very very uh bought into his own rank recently this was a while

no this is in the teams oh yeah a guy that was very bought into his rank and flexing his rank but other people's ranks that were above him were kind of like they didn't matter and i kind of always be like, you know? Yeah. And this is funny too because I was, this is when I was an ensign, which is the lowest ranking officer, which generally don't get a ton of respect

because in the regular situations, these are guys that have been in the Navy for three days. Or may, up to two years, but they're very new. They're very junior. For me, I had been in for eight years at this point. So, you know, I wasn't quite like a boot ensign. Yeah, yeah, a little bit different.

In fact, in some situations, I had been in the SEAL teams for longer than people that were pretty senior enlisted guys. If you hadn't gone to, if you hadn't gone to Buds right out of boot camp, if you were in the fleet prior, I would probably been in the team's longer than you. And there is a, there is always a little bit of, well, I just been in the team's longer than you. You know, I've been in longer than you, so therefore. Anyways, getting back to this question, this guy, this individual, is I got this guy that he's working. for it. He doesn't really respect. How do you deal with it? And that idea of like we salute the rank, not the man, you don't have to like the guy, but in order to be a part of the program,

like, okay, this guy's, he has that rank, he has that position. Okay. I'm going to treat him with respect as the as the protocol states. That's what I'm going to do. And listen, I worked, like I said, I worked for all kinds of people that I didn't respect in the military. I worked for people that didn't respect in the civilian sector. They would have never known it. And neither would anyone around us. You know what I mean? So that's what you do. You just be professional.

You treat them with professionalism and that's it. This is where you have to be a little bit, you have to use a little bit more of your leadership skill. And that is if he is behaving in a way or telling you to do things that don't make sense and now you've got to present that to the troops. You know what I'm saying? So when you get told that the person that you don't really respect,

says, hey, I want you guys to, you know, wear clown shoes. And you say, hey, boss, I'm not sure if clown shoes are the best. No, that's what we're going to do. And you say, clown shoes aren't really, they're not going to be effective. We're going to be hard to move in. No, but it's going to make us better in the long run. We go back to regular shoes. I want everyone in clown shoes tomorrow.

You see what I'm saying? Like, you can get in situations like that. You don't then go, hey, guys, the boss is an idiot and he's making us wear clown shoes. Because then that's, you know, negative. But you also don't go, hey, guys, the boss has a great idea. all going to wear clown shoes and I totally agree with that. You don't do that either because then the guys go wait, you're an idiot. So what you do, you know, this is after you push back, after you present the case, then you say, hey guys, here's what's going on. Look, I'm not 100% sure

what the effectiveness of the clown shoes is, but the boss really thinks it's going to be make us better once we remove them. So that's what we're going to do. We're going to do our best. We put these clown shoes on. We're going to gear up and we're going to do the best that we can. And then I'm going to be able to give them some good feedback on what it was like. that's what you do. You say, hey, when we get done with this, we're going to do it to the best of our ability. It's going to increase my, you know,

the boss is trust in me. It's going to give me a little more influence and hopefully I'll stare them in the right direction on us. So that's what we do. You're trying to build that relationship, you know, and it's interesting here because this guy says, this individual that he doesn't respect is training to fill in as the battalion chief,

largely due to his relationship with management. Now, we could say, what a kiss ass. What a brown noser. Or we could say we're getting out maneuvered. You know what I'm saying? We could say we're getting out maneuvered. Oh, okay, no, no, no, jock, you tell me to run around and kiss people. No, I'm not telling you that.

I'm not saying you be a brown noser. No, I'm not saying that. Do I say build relationships? Oh, yes, I do. Now, what relationship is stronger? The relationship of someone that's just kissing ass like? like hey, yeah, it's brilliant, but they're not doing anything

or the relationship with someone that's trustless and respect, influencing care, that's working hard. You can win that relationship game even when you're not kissing ass. Yeah, for me. Now, are there a few just crazy narcissistic human beings that just love getting their ass kissed?

Yes, there are. And they will protect their little harem of ass kissers. But it's not normal. And if it is, you guess what you have to do? You have to maneuver through that environment. You know, you got to figure out how to make it work. Otherwise, what you end up doing is you end up ostracizing yourself.

Now you're viewed through a negative light. And not only does that screw you, but that screws your team too. So, hey, that's the way the game is played. Yeah. And am I saying, you know, oh, you should run around and kiss people's asses? No, what I'm saying is you build relationships with people. That way, instead of this knucklehead, getting to be the fill-in for the battalion chief, It'll be you.

So that's what I'm thinking, man. That's where I'm at on this one. It's one of those scenarios. How do you respect someone's leadership position when you don't respect or trust the person holding it? You be professional. You try and build that relationship. That's the best possible outcome. What are you going to do?

Oh, you know what you should do is confront him and tell him how you think. How's that going to work out? It's not going to work out well. Think of what the alternative courses of action are, you know, sabotage him. Oh, now the whole team looks bad. Undermine him. Now the team is not performing well. Call him out.

Now you have an antagonistic relationship with the person that you work for. Like there's so many, quote unquote, like aggressive options to stand your ground. And guess what? You end up losing each one of those. It's like, you know, this is the same way. You know, you're walking down the street and someone, you know, insults you. What should you do? You know, could use a double leg.

You could just go one, two, combination to the face. You could, you know, spin them around real quick with that self-devence move where you just grab one shoulder. You pull one and you push the other and it just turns them around. You rear naked choke them. Like, wait, of those options, which one do you think is the best one in this? It's like, oh, actually, I'm sorry, but none of them. You know, the best one is to just go, ignore them and move on. Yeah.

But what about the? Yeah. Because where does those three end up? You're getting sued. you're on social media beating up some bum you go to jail by the way like there's all kinds of all kinds of gnarly things that can happen

and it's the same thing here antagonistic relationships antagonistic relationships are not going to help you so build some good relationships yeah remember that's when you first said that I was like dang that's the perfect way to put it because there's no sidestepping that fact like there's nothing good comes from building

an antagonistic relationship the whole playing the game thing where you know the boss will say whether it be upper management your boss whoever whatever you know they kind of look at everybody beneath them as like okay like who has potential you know they have this like evaluation always running right and you can have a guy who does good work but you could tell like he's kind of undermining you sometimes or like, you know, like, let's say you're in a group setting and they kind of like roll their eyes. You know, like that kind of stuff.

You're like, okay, versus the other guy who's like, yeah, yeah, kind of on board for all your stuff, even all the way down to the kiss-ass guy who's like super extra on board with everything. So those kind of guys, the upper management guy, whatever, the boss is kind of rooting for them. You know, like, oh, I really hope this guy does good work. In fact, I'm going to help him. So because if I want anyone promoted, I want this guy because I'm rooting for him.

He's not undermining me. He's not freaking making me feel, you know, like I shouldn't be here or all this other negative stuff, this antagonistic climate, you know, this work environment kind of a thing. So yeah, like I said, the guy can be doing good work the other guy, right? But if he's kind of like, he brings along this element of toxicity, right, that guy's not rooting for you at all. In fact, they're kind of hoping you show up late one day. Yeah. It's kind of hoping you can give him the excuse to write them up and maybe, you know, phase them out or whatever. So it's kind of like, Brian, you're totally screwing yourself.

Yeah. Actively. Yeah. And most important, you're hurting the team and you're hurting the mission. That's the most important thing here. Look, you may not get, I'm not talking about you, you won't get promoted, you're not going to get the opportunity for promotion. All that's secondary tertiary doesn't matter. What matters is you're not in a good relationship with your boss.

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