Jocko Podcast - Jocko Underground: When Someone is Gate-Keeping and Preventing your Success.

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

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This is the Jocko Underground podcast number 165 sitting here with Echo Charles preparing to answer questions from the troopers of planet Earth. Sure. Planet Earth. So we're ready. Yeah, we're ready. We're going to present some courses of actions, some thoughts. And then we'll move forward. Yeah, see how we can move forward.

Good. Okay. First question. Hi, Jocco. I write to you to ask for advice on behalf of my girlfriend. She's one of the most squared away and hardworking people I know, wakes up early, work, out, goes to the lab, works all day. She's in the last phase of her PhD program, where her advisor, the person who runs the whole lab, is making life difficult. For starters, he's rarely

in the lab. From what I can tell, he keeps students in the dark about their future. For example, he hasn't reviewed the papers that my girlfriend submitted over a year ago. There is minimal communication. He'll meet with students occasionally where he yells at them. for not achieving the results he expected. All of that would be tolerable except for he keeps pushing back her graduation every single semester. Everyone who has recently graduated from the lab has left on bad terms with this advisor. What can she do in this situation? Should she just keep at it and hope for the best?

She's even ready to jump ship to another Ph.D. program, but that will undo a lot of effort she has put in. Thanks for everything. Well, start off, I said I don't really know a lot about PhD programs and how they work, other than hearing stories from people that I know that are doctors of some kind. Sure. And, you know, there's different kind of, but they do mention labs. So I'm imagining it's not like a PhD in literature or something like that.

This sounds like some kind of a science-based, right? At a minimum, I'm going to a lab. So, but I don't know much about those programs. I didn't get any degree past my just regular degree in English, which wasn't science. Anyways, so you're talking an area that I don't have a lot of expertise. And I certainly don't know the specifics of the program that she's involved in. So I'm just going to look at this from sort of a leadership and a human interaction perspective. And I think what I would do if I were her is I would kind of start to document what is happening.

And I would gather documentation that has already taken place, right? And I would start to document things that are going on. sending emails, hey, checking in, you know, doctor, you know, I'm assuming the person that's running the lab is a doctor, checking in doctor, doctor, doctor advisor, you know, you know, what's up with this? Can I expect a grade back? And then I would just start to maintain what kind of communication you're getting.

And if you're not getting communication, that's, by the way, that's a form of communication if you're getting blown off. As I make communications, whether I receive things are not back, I would start to, to, not demand, but I would request very specific things be put in writing. You know, I'd be saying like, hey, you know, Dr. Advisor, I would like to know about this. I've got this thing working. I'd like to know what I can expect here.

I would start to ask for very specific requirements that then I can hang on to. And I can be able to, where I'm going with this, be able to present some kind of a case. Right. I would probably gather other information from other students as well. Like, sure you have friends that are there. Maybe you have some friends that graduated. Let's get some documentation from them.

And then I would put together like a nice request, an outline of a plan that this advisor approves a commitment for how you're going to finish this program. And then hopefully get traction. But if you don't get traction, I would set a meeting with the advisor. And I would say, listen, you know, here's where we've been for the last three months, four months, five months, because she must have some email. So maybe it's the last nine months. Here's what I've been through.

Here's where I'm at. And unless you can help me resolve this, I'm actually going to go and talk to, you know, the professor, not the advisor, but like the professor or the department head or something like that and get this resolved because I, this is. unacceptable. It's unacceptable for this. Be cordial and be professional. But this is wrong.

You know, this is just wrong. So that's what I would do. I would gather evidence. I would build a case. I would eventually request like an outline of what I need to do to get this done in writing. And then if I'm not getting the response that I need, I would present the case first to the advisor and say, hey, because I don't want to buy on someone. side. I don't know blindside someone. I would present and say, hey, listen, Echo, here's where I'm at.

I've been nine months of correspondence from you. You sent me to me emails back. I've sent you 37 emails. The only thing you sent me back, one email says yes. The other email says, check back with me later. And I did and you never responded. So that is nine months of me putting forth my maximum effort. And this is what I've gotten back from you. I need to graduate from this program. I need to carry on with my life. If you cannot give me a simple, clear, concise answer on how I can make that happen, I am going to take this information to the professor that is running the course. And I'm going to get this resolved.

Now, listen, I'm being a little bit more aggressive than I would be in this conversation, but that's ultimately what you have to do, in my opinion. Yeah, it's interesting how documenting is become so much more. persuasive I guess for lack about it term where you know especially when you have that like the dates and the times you know like ever seen those depositions or whatever I'm thinking of a movie right now the social network you ever watched that on social network so it's about Facebook and stuff other the lawsuits and stuff like that but like he'll they'll go like through the the little court or

sorry the lawyer you know I think it's the deposition maybe and they'll go like oh Wednesday this you said this you said this you said it kind of like when you're in the It's kind of like it's easy to ignore the email and be like well no like I didn't ignore all your emails But it's like when you have it literally written there it paints this like way more clear of a picture you know because you're Detached from it you know you can just kind of see it as a as a whole But yeah it takes a lot of it takes a lot more work to do that Yeah, I think in this situation or these types of situation about this is your PhD you're talking about you I'm saying so it's like worth it you the only other thing to consider here

He's I don't know what like like I said I don't know anything about the specifics of this program, if that advisor is some highly politically connected person, you screw them over, they're going to freaking backlash, and it's going to be, you might have to just sit there and suck it up. Everyone else, other people graduated. Sometimes, like, cool, I'm going to grin and bear it for the next however. Yeah, you're right.

You know, like occasionally, man, occasionally you just got to play the game. You've got to play the game sometimes. People underestimate that idea. Yeah. But the amount of friction that you can cause by not playing the game, And you think it's the right, you think it's the right thing to do, and it might be the right thing to do.

But I'd wait to you graduate and then put the dude on a report. You know what I'm saying? You want to do the right thing? Cool. Graduate and then go to the professor that's in charge and say, hey, just so you know, here's 94 emails that I sent in a three-month period, and I got one response. And it was checked with me later,

and I didn't have heard it back from them again. So you got to figure out, and you got to weigh the risk versus reward. Like, oh, it's going to take you an extra four months to graduate, but there's no drama. We'll get it done and you can carry on with your life. Cool. You present this person all of a sudden they have a way of going, oh, you want a program?

Cool. And they grade your paper and they fail your own. You see what I'm saying? You can set yourself up for a bad scenario. So I don't want that to happen. So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground podcast. So if you want to continue to listen, go to jaco underground.com and subscribe. And we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control.

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