Jocko Podcast - The Debrief w/ Jocko And Dave Berke #25: Team Does Not Want To Put In The Extra Effort

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

How does a leader get his team to care enough to put in the extra effort and go above and beyond what's required. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is the Jocco debrief podcast, episode 25 with Dave Burke and me. Jocco Willink. Dave, let's debrief. What do we got going on? We got a question. This actually, a lot of the times when we talk, it's business situations that we're dealing with either me and the team with a long-range client or a client you've been working with.

If you don't know this, we have a company called Ashland Front. We're a leadership consultancy. We've been around for a decade. Crazy. Which seems kind of crazy. We work with hundreds of companies in every size and shape. And just as you may have read in extreme ownership or the dichotomy of leadership or leadership strategy and tactics, we learn a lot as we do this.

And oftentimes we would debrief each other. Say, oh, here's what happened with the client. Here's the leadership situation we're in. Here's how we solved it. And we learn a lot from each other. And so we decided at some point to make these debrief podcasts to let everybody learn from these lessons. We also have an online training platform for leaders. And so it's called Extreme Ownership.com. It's the academy. And we do questions and answers on that.

We have some free courses on there. We have paid content on there. We do live sessions where you can just come on and ask questions directly to me, Laif, Dave, who, you know, anyone on the team. And so that looks like you're talking about something from the academy here. Just wanted to give everyone a little heads up in case someone's jumping and out of nowhere. Yeah, that's exactly right. So the academy is a great place. We meet once a week. People ask a bunch of questions.

It's really cool. The questions that are asked are relevant to not just the person asking it. There's a version of this that just about everybody is dealing with. So every now and then there's a question that when it gets asked, it's connected to so many other similar questions that it's sometimes worth discussing more generically than just the specific thing that's being asked. Because it's the same challenge people are dealing with. And this is one of those questions. And it's a question that we get a version of many times.

And so quite simply the question is got a leader in an organization and they've got a team working for them and that team doesn't want to put in the extra effort or at least so it seems. So the situation is, hey, they work from 9 to 5, you know, but nobody wants to stay late. Nobody wants to work weekends. Nobody wants to come in early. Those things aren't happening. They're not engaged and they don't seem to care beyond the basic requirements that are set

for them. And the question is, how do I get them to make that end? extra effort so we can win. How can I get them to care as much as I do? That's the generics of the question. So that's the situation we see and hear about all the time. And like I said, it's a version of a question that we get almost all the time, which is how can I get my people to take more ownership?

And the reason I thought this was good, it reminds me of the last podcast we talked about, is seeing two different ways to answer the same question, two different viewpoints that you could possibly have. A lot of times on the academy, in person, whatever it might be, when we get a question is, how do I get people to take ownership? One of the most common ways we answer, depending on the situation, is you can't make people take ownership. You have to take ownership. And that's a very common answer we give. And that answer to that question is very relevant, especially when we're talking about people that don't

want to take ownership of problems. Jock works for me. There's a problem. Jocko doesn't want to take ownership of that. And one of the worst things I can do as a leader is say, Jocko, this is your fault, you need to take ownership of it. What I actually need to do is I need to take ownership of that and say, hey, Jocko, this problem you're dealing with, this is my fault. Let me explain why, the things I've done wrong, the mistakes I've made, the lessons I learned. And if I take ownership of problems, what you'll see over time is that's a really effective way for me to solve these problems and you'll see the value of that. And you'll be far more inclined to be taking ownership of problems than if I'm imposing that on you, which doesn't work. So I can't tell you to take ownership.

It's kind of a direct violation of what we teach, which is Jocko works for me. Jocco's got a problem. it actually isn't his fault is my fault and I want him to see me take that ownership yeah and I was gonna throw that in there so this is not a ninja trick manipulation this is not Dave saying that it's his fault in order to trick me into me saying no it's my fault no when you do this you have to think to yourself wait a second I'm the person in charge the team didn't do what they're or my employee or my subordinate didn't do what they were supposed to do or the team didn't do that they're supposed to do this actually is my fault because I'm the I'm the person in charge. Yeah. And so here's the things that I didn't do well.

I didn't explain the why. I didn't give Dave the training that he needed. I didn't give him the the gear that he needed or the support that he needed. These are things. These are the mistakes that I made. I didn't give him the clear end date. I didn't tell him what the reward was going to be for us winning this contract or or closing this deal. These are all mistakes that I made.

And I'm going to present those to Dave and say, Hey, here's the things that I messed up. Here's how I'm going to fix them next time. And I look forward to another opportunity for us to win. So again, I just want to reiterate that this isn't a manipulation. It's not a little ninja trick that you're going to use to get someone to take ownership. Yeah, finally, I got Dave to say it's his fault. No, no, no, no.

If I'm in charge, it's my fault. Yeah, that is so important. And in fact, I mean, we literally teach the concept of ownership every time we're working with someone. and a question that I will ask every single time when we talk about why do you take ownership of the situation, it's not uncommon to say, oh, that's what I want my other people to do. I want them to see this as well.

There's one reason you take ownership of a problem. It actually is your fault. That's the reason you do it. And there is power in that, especially if the people around you see the authenticity of that. Dave believes and understands why this is his fault. And if you see me do that as your boss, you're actually going to want to emulate that. You're going to want to follow that same path because that recognition that I had that this problem is my fault, that's where all my power comes from.

Because if I got a problem that's not my fault that I can't solve, that means that problem isn't going to go away. And I don't want my life to be like that. And so that differentiation between the technique that sometimes people go, oh, this is a cool tool to get other people do it. That is not what ownership is. And so even in the understanding of that, the reason we take ownership, why it works, you are actually responsible. And there is so much power in that. But sometimes in these situations, I've got people working for me. Let's say you're working for me.

9 to 5, jaco clocks in, does his work at 4.50. And I go, hey, man, I need an extra 30 minutes to get this thing out the door. You know, we need to get this to this client ahead of schedule, whatnot. you stick around 30 minutes late and you're like, nope, five o'clock I'm punching out and he leaves. This is a little bit different situation. And this gets me to how we answer the same question sometimes. How do I get my people to take ownership? We answer in what seems to be the exact opposite answer, which is I have to give you ownership.

And that is different than saying, I have to tell you this is your fault. But if I've got people on my team and they don't feel like they have ownership of what's going on with this team, with this company, with what we're trying to do, it's going to be really hard for them to see why they would stay late, why they would come in on weekends, why they would come in early, why they would do any of the things that so many leaders right now are struggling with their people not doing. And so the concept of giving people ownership, sometimes in this case, like it is in this case, sometimes it's actually a literal thing. And the cool thing about the way I get to think about these things and the way I'm going to debrief you or the questions I get to answer is I get to think about the position that I'm in.

I get to think about myself and some of the best advice, maybe the best advice I ever got as I came to echelon front was when I answer questions, the first thing I should think about is what I would actually do. And so I got to put myself in a position of trying to understand what is not just the frustration of this leader whose people aren't doing what he wants them to do, but all. also the position of those people that don't feel compelled to want to do that. I'm thinking if Jaco ever called me and goes, hey man, I know you had plans, you know, tomorrow at five o'clock. I know you were going to head out and whatnot. But dude, here's the situation. We got this issue. Can you stick around? Can you come down here and give me an hour, this and that? I try to think of the reason why I would say yes. And the reason I would say yes is that I actually feel, I actually feel like I have ownership of what's going on here. I have, I feel like I've been given

ownership so much so that this feels like every bit as important to me as it feels to you, which makes it really easy for me, for me to want to do extra things. And so if we actually want the people to do the things we think we need them to do, they have to feel like they have ownership. And you have to help them see that connection. But the reason I thought this was an important one is something that you talked about. And I'm thinking of all the different stories we say is, can they make the connection? Can they make the connection between the things that they are doing to make the team successful, the company successful, to make the client successful, and their life being better?

Their life being better for them. And that's the concept of giving ownership is I feel like this is in my best interest to say, this is in my best interest to do this extra work. This is my best interest because I get to share in the benefit of feeling like I have ownership. in this company. So Dave is a little bit selfish ultimately. Because when I call you at 4 o'clock and I say, hey, Dave, I know you're planning to head up to the mountains this weekend with your family, but I got a client.

They want to meet for dinner tonight. Can you come down because they're, you know, aviation company and you're the guy and they really want to meet you. Can you come down? And what you just said is, which is true, you go, well, Yep, I want to go down. I'll be down there because you know that when you go down there and you help Eschelon Front and Eschlam Front does better and Eschon Front gets it front gets another client,

you know that Dave Burke is going to have more job stability. Dave Burke is going to make some money directly from that client. Dave Burke's family is going to be more stable and secure. Dave Burke's going to build some relationships with some more people in this company. That's going to open up more opportunities. So there's it's an interesting dynamic and you know we used to have that expring in the expression in the military of what's in it for me remember that totally and you'd want to explain to guys what's in it for you so it's sort of one of those

situation and you're right this is in leadership strategy and tactics right this is when it's what I called the thread of why and how does the thread of why hey if echelon from if I call up Dave and say hey Dave like Dave's you're on a salary you're getting paid no matter what and And I call you up and say, hey, Dave, can you, can you come down to San Diego tonight and go to dinner with these people? But he's planning to go skiing or he's planning to go to the mountains or he's planning to go whatever, camping. And if he has no, if he's not going to benefit or he doesn't understand how he benefits and his family benefits and his life gets better, the better Eschlam Front does, then he's not going to do it. So what we need, ultimately what we're talking about is unified strategic.

We are both trying to go in the same direction. When the echelon front wins, well, Dave Burke wins. Dave Burke's family wins. That's what happens. So you're in the military now. And now you've got people that got to go out and do a mission. Well, how does that benefit me or to put my life at risk? Well, guess what?

If we do our job here in this foreign country to put a, to dismantle a terrorist group, guess what you're going to benefit your family's going to benefit they're going to be safer you're going to get possibly promoted there's a bunch of reasons america's going to be more stable your family's going to be safer so the minute that i'm telling someone to do something and i cannot connect the dots between how this is going to benefit them i got a problem i got a legitimate problem So that connection between those two things is what's powerful between Dave understanding, hey, when Eschelon Front wins, Dave Burke wins, Dave Burke's life gets better, his family's life gets better, that's what we want.

And this goes to anywhere. This goes to any, you know, the example that I use in the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics, you know, the CEO got up and made a big speech about we're profitable, we paid a bunch of money to the shareholders. none of that mattered to the workers. They're all like, hey, we didn't get any money for, we didn't get any dividend check. But what they didn't understand is that they had job stability. What they didn't understand is that there would be expansion.

What they didn't understand is as they grew, there would be more opportunities for every single one of those workers. And once they saw that, they realized, oh, I should go harder. I should do more. So, yeah. Yeah. And you talked about that financial one. And that one is, that one actually, I think sometimes can be the, you know, the easiest one to pinpoint is if that is the motivation. But what Dave Burke is actually doing,

I've got plans for my family. I've got dreams. I got visions. I want my kids to be able to go to a good school. I want to be able to take a nice vacation with my wife. I have goals and strategic things that I want to accomplish for my family. And if I can make the connection between the pathway to me having more control over my life to doing this extra work, and if I can get my, in this particular case, get my family to understand that, hey, babe, hey, jocco called. I need to stay an extra hour tomorrow. We've got A, B, and C going on, and I know it's going to put us a little behind schedule. We're going to arrive a little bit later than we planned, but she understands what it is that I'm doing and how it helps us accomplish the things we want to accomplish. It doesn't

necessarily mean I get an extra deposit on my paycheck. It might be this is what's best for the company, because over time, that's going to be what's best for me. Maybe that means we bring in a better client, and we get to now outfit echelon front with new better computers so we can do a better job building, you know, PowerPoint presentations, a better job training. I can make the connection to all the reasons how the company wins and draw a direct link to my life getting better. How hard is it for me to go, dude, do you need me to stay for an extra hour? No factor. Where do you need me to be? And it doesn't have to be this tug of war by which you're trying to compel and force me and trying to squeeze a little more blood out of the turn-up on my hourly schedule as opposed to, hey, Dave,

the ownership that you can have in this is all these other things. Yeah, yeah, money is great. And I'm not trying to diminish the value of people getting paid more. I think that's great. But the thing that I've discovered people want more than anything is they want more control over their lives. And I can make the connection between echelon front being successful as a company with my life having, me having more control over my life and being able to accomplish the things

that my wife and I have for our families. And if I can draw that link all the way back down to that, It makes it so much easier. And I think it's important to think about that idea of when you want people to take more ownership, you've got to give them more ownership. Sometimes that is in a literal, a literal sense of giving ownership. We've worked with clients where they give them ownership in the company. They have that connection. And when you're in charge, it's kind of easy to make that.

If you're the CEO, it's easy to make the connection between your people's extra work and how it benefits you. Not so simple for them. And so if I've got people on my team that don't want to take that extra effort, they don't want to give that additional beyond what's expected of them nights, weekends, early, extra, whatever it might be, sometimes the answer to that is the almost opposite of what we say for ownership is I'm not giving them enough ownership. And literally the example I wrote down was the one you have from leadership strategy and tactics is obviously you hit on that because you know that so well. Okay. All good. All viable points, Dave Burke. Go on all viable points when I was on Andrew Huberman's podcast a little while ago and we were talking about teams and I said hey Andrew

If you have a team of 10 people and you all get along great and love each other and support each other And I have a team of 10 people and we don't get along and we don't like each other We don't have relationships who's gonna win he's like yeah Obviously the team that cares about each other the team team that takes care of each other wins Which means we need to have good relationships inside of our team which if you've been on the academy calls for the last two years what we've been talking about is if we have a relationship that means we trust each other that means we listen to each other that means we are able to influence each other that means we are able to influence each other that's

what a relationship is so dave and i have a relationship and that means we trust each other that means we listen to each other that means we treat each other with respect and you can take any one of those and turn them off and we got a bad deal right so if we don't trust each other we don't really have a relationship if we don't respect each other we don't really have a relationship So that being said, I got to add something else into the mix, which is probably the preeminent piece of a relationship. It probably trumps, possibly trumps everything that I just said. And that is when someone, when you know someone cares about you. When you know some and you know, I've taken this expression that we had in the seal team.

which we would talk about our gear we'd say take care of your gear your gear will take care of you which means if you take care of your parachute and when you get done jumping it you clean it you make sure it's squared away and you pack it correctly it's going to work for you your dive rig you take care of that thing you clean it when it's not being used you keep it in a cool dry place so it doesn't get more like all those things you take care of your gear your gear will take care of you well guess what if you take care of your people your people will take care of you when i had mook general james mucuyama on the podcast he talked about the premier one of his premier elements of leadership was caring caring for your people who was his

favorite leader colonel david hackworth colonel david hackworth who is like known as a hard ass and yet mook and everyone else knew that david hackworth cared about them that's what they knew If we were to break it down, Dave, if I called you at 5 o'clock or 4 o'clock and said, hey, man, this client, their aviation company, I know you're planning to head to the mountains with your family. Can you come down here? Look, sure, you have ownership and all those other things. But if you were just Dave Burke and you didn't work at Eshawon Front, but we were just friends and we had been through stuff together and you knew I cared about you. I called you up and said, hey man, I got this client. I know you don't do this kind of thing and you're just flying for the airlines now or whatever,

but they'd really like to meet you. Can you come down here? If I believed you cared about me more than yourself? You're doing it. I'm there. You're doing it. And so if you're not running your organization in a way that people recognize, oh, look, I know we want to make money, but you can see Jocko's actually concerned about where I am and think.

three years. Jock was concerned about making sure my family is good to go. Jock was concerned, like if, if you care about your people, they're going to take care of you. Now, part of this is leadership capital too, right? How many times, I mean, Dave, you got, like I call you the next weekend. I call you the weekend after that. I call you the weekend after that.

By the way, I call you a Thursday night, and then you're going on a date with your wife, and I call you up. All of a sudden, I'm burning my leadership capital. And what I'm actually displaying, there's like an equivalency here. What I'm actually displaying is that I don't care about you. Look, I don't care that you're going to the weekend. I don't care that you're going to work with me. I don't care that you're going on a date with your wife.

You need to come and help me out. All of a sudden, I'm displaying through my actions. And there's like an equivalency between leadership capital and how much I care about you. Because if I care about you, bro, dude, look, you're going on a date with your wife. Don't worry about it, man. Don't come down. Seriously, like, free. I'm not even going to dinner because I don't, I'm not going to do this because I don't want you to

I want I want you to go be with your wife tonight you know you had this date planned I want you go to the mountains with your family that's more important when I care about you when I invest and I up the bank account of how much I care about you then I've got some capital in there and you know when I need something I'm gonna you're gonna give it to me so that is a very important thing to think about you are when you when you've got people that you work with, that you work for, that work for you, every moment you're, that there's a leadership capital element and that leadership capital, it's like the dollar bill is based in gold, right?

The dollar, the dollar bill used to be based in gold, right? You used to represent gold. Well, leadership capital, what that's based in is how much do I care about my people? And when I cut you off when you're talking, I don't care what you have to say. And when I don't treat you with respect, I don't care how you feel. And when I don't allow you to influence me, I don't care about what your ideas are. And when I don't trust you, I don't care if you trust me. So the leadership capital piece, if you were to translate, if you were to go cash in that money for gold, what you would get is care.

That's what you would get. and every so when you want we got people that aren't on board that don't want to work that don't want to that want to skip things they don't they haven't seen how much you care about them and if they haven't seen how much you care about them it's going to be hard for them to care about you so start investing in that bank by the way your whole approach to this thing the whole approach here what can I how can I get more out of them how can I get them to work harder wait a second let's put that let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's Do the same thing we do with trust,

less, and respect and influence. Because if I want you to trust me, I'm going to trust you. If I want you to treat me with respect, I'm going to treat you with respect. If I want you to care about this job, I need to show that I care about you.

So there you go. Yeah. And if you actually cared about me, the way that you just described, how often would you want me to make those sacrifices on behalf of all these things that supposedly matter to you if that was really more important

than, that I was more important than I was to yourself? So, yeah, That connection is the way you describe. That's awesome is that that's what you do with people who care about. And sometimes you got to go, hey, Dave, listen, dude. I'm sorry, man. Here's the reason why I need this.

And when those times happen, the times are supposed to happen, I'm like, bro, stop. Just tell me when and where, no factor. And if that happens every single day, I might start to think, oh, oh, I think I see what he's doing. It's not exactly what I thought. Check this out. We want people to, this is going back to your original question. Stay late. Work weekends.

Come in early. Okay? So if I want you to stay late, guess what I should be actually doing as often as I can, getting you out of early? Yep. If I want you to work weekends, as often as I can, if I want to prove to you, look, I care about you. I'm like, hey, Dave, you know what? Tomorrow morning, Friday morning, I actually have got everything under wraps. You don't even need to show up.

You can just stay home. Like, don't come in. Hey, Dave, I know you got your son's wrestling tournament tomorrow night, and it's going to be late night because you got to drive back from out of state. Don't come in in the morning get some sleep you need some rest. It's all good. What does each one of those things mean? Each one of those things means I actually care about you. So I'm taking the things that you're demanding Stay late work weekends coming early these are just flip those upside down and I want you because now Look Dave you know Dave didn't come in on Friday last Friday Two Thursdays ago. He came in late in the morning because he had that wrestling tournament

Um, you know, I gave him the Friday office. So we're doing all these things. Now when I call, now Dave knows I care about him. He knows I care about his family. And now when I call him up and say, Hey, Dave, I just got a, I just got a tasking from that client. I need help. And it's, and it's, it's now. And it's, I know it's Friday afternoon.

You're driving home. Can you either come turn around right now or can you meet me of six o'clock tomorrow morning? Can you? I'm getting all, all day long. Yeah. No factor. No factor. So if you want people

To take care of you Take care of them There you go. All right My turn? Your turn. All right I Just want to make sure That everyone You ever seen those signs on the beach

Have you ever seen a sign on the beach? Legit sign on the beach that said sharks Yeah Like You got to watch out Yep You probably shouldn't get in the water There's other signs You know you go camping

and they'll say fire warning right hey don't set fires you were in stage red or whatever there's little things that we got to watch out for in the world and something i something you may want to pay attention to something you may want to put just make sure you're looking for the signs is insecurity i was with a client recently and i saw an interaction that was it it said to me I see some signs. They say watch out for insecurity. A particular individual who's in a senior position doesn't have a degree in computer science. No degree.

Matter of fact, like did whatever one year of junior college or something and yet is in a very powerful position and has a ton of experience. So didn't go to school, didn't get the piece of paper, but knows that. a ton about it. This is like the mechanic that's looking at your car, right? And he's been working on Ford's for, you know, 25 years. He's been working on Ford's for 25 years. And yet there's, you know, an engineer from MIT that's going to look at your, you know, who do you want to diagnose a problem with your Ford?

Your Ford's engine, right? Look, that person from MIT is obviously smart, has a degree in mechanical engineering. But it, but the guy that's been working on Ford's for 25 years. So that's the kind of scenario that we were in, right? This guy knows a lot. He's been under the hood in the computer world and the software world, even in the hardware world, but he really knows a lot. And he threw out one of these, you know,

they don't respect me because I don't have a degree. And that right there, you know, this was on an offline conversation, they don't respect me because I don't have a degree. And that just flag, the big giant like eight by 12 flag went up that said insecurity on it because he was so obviously insecure about this and the funny thing is I talked to the rest of the staff and guess what the staff thinks he's brilliant the staff thinks he's got all this knowledge the staff thinks that he's incredible what he's done they're totally behind him and yet he's insecure about the fact that that that he doesn't

have a degree in this stuff and this is just so ego driven you know so now he feels like he feels like maybe he's not good enough because he's insecure. So now he's projecting on everybody else that they don't think he's, you know, got it going on. And so then it's like, then what happens is so there's one flag goes up. Then another flag goes up. The other flag is like, hey, we need to do it my way. So all of a sudden we're imposing on people. All of a sudden another flag goes up.

That's like making people look stupid in a conversation. Hey, uh, uh, that's a, uh, that's a. That's a completely different engine than that Ford that you're talking about. You do you, you know, and then it's a little snout. They didn't teach you that in college. You didn't learn that up at MIT? You didn't learn that? And all of a sudden these, it's just red flag, red flag, red flag, and it gets to be,

it gets to be a little bit embarrassing. And what sucks is, of course, everybody sees it, right? You know, they might not see the first one. You put up one red flag and you put up a flag and people, maybe you raise it half-mast. You know, it's a half mass thing that says insecurity. And people kind of like overlook it because there's a bunch of other flags of, hey, confident and, you know, knows stuff. And so they don't really see it. But then you start putting up flag after flag after flag.

And it really starts to leave a mark. So I'm asking you to pay attention to that. I'm asking you to not do that, actually. I'm asking you to pay attention to insecurity because it can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. They don't respect me. It's a huge one. They don't respect me because I'm too old. They don't respect me because I don't have a degree.

Or they don't respect me because I have a degree because that happens too, right? Oh, this freaking college kid coming down here with his degree. Or the opposite happens. Oh, they think they know everything just because they've been to college. Did I catch both directions there? I can't tell if I did. It can go either way, right? Either this guy has a degree thinks he knows everything or this person doesn't have a degree.

They don't know what the hell they're talking about. or I have experience or don't have experience. That's another one, right? I've been doing this for 25 years. I don't have to listen to Dave. Or Dave, you know, he has 25, so he thinks he knows everything. We just, either direction. We can find insecurity in either direction.

And the thing is, no one cares. The only person that cares, the only person that cares is actually you. I've, I've had that conversation with at least 20 people. where 20 people have pointed out their insecurity of, I don't have this or I didn't do that, or I never, you know, oh, I never served. So therefore no one respects me. Like, no one actually cares. They care if you suck at your job.

They care if you make mistakes repetitively, repetitively, and you don't correct them. But no one actually cares that you don't have a degree. They don't cares. No one cares that you have a degree, by the way. So to prevent, by the way, this is your ego. So this is your ego that gets, your ego gets very reactive to this stuff. Your ego is super sensitive. Your ego is nervous.

Your ego doesn't like people looking at it. It always thinks everyone's looking at it. Your ego thinks everything is looking at you. When reality is no one actually cares. So what can you do about it? When you start to feel this, when you start to feel the insecurity come out, just freaking take ownership of it. And you probably thought I was going to say that.

But take ownership of it. Own it. And the way you own it is by saying like, yeah, you know what? They might have learned something in college that I don't know. How hard is that? So you're a computer science. You didn't get a computer science degree, but you know all kinds of stuff about computers

because you've been working. You've been under the hood of computers for 25 years. But you got some other person that rolls in that has their computer science degree from MIT. And instead of being like, they think they know everything. Instead, own it and say, oh, yeah, you know what? That's pretty awesome.

They probably learned some stuff that I don't know. Good. I can utilize that knowledge. If you understand that maybe someone has more experience than you, instead of being like, well, that Dave thinks he knows everything just because we know. Actually, be like, hey, you know, Dave, you've been doing this for long with me. That's awesome. I really want to learn from you.

Take ownership of it. And take ownership of it. internally and externally. Right? If you only take ownership of it externally, but you really hold the internal grudge, everybody can see it. So watch out for that one.

Everyone can see how insecure you are. And all you, this is the crazy thing. When you're, this is the, pay attention to this. When you're hiding your insecurities, everybody can see them. When you open them up, they're not there anymore. Isn't that a wild thing to think about? When you hide your insecurities, everyone can see them.

When you open up and show everyone your insecurities, they disappear. Isn't that amazing? Boy, it takes some courage to open up and show everyone those insecurities. It takes so much courage to do that. Everyone can see your little petty behaviors. Everyone can see them. Those little snide comments that you're making. Everyone can see them.

Everyone can hear them. Respect levels go down. And then what's scary is you end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? It's like when you, when the police start watching a guy who's paranoid because he's acting paranoid, so the police start watching him, and then all of a sudden he's like, you see the cops are watching me and it's a downward spiral. That's what happens with your insecurities. You hide them. People start to notice them.

People start treating you differently. All of a sudden you become more insecure. It's a freaking problem. Whereas if you go, oh, yeah, you know what, I didn't even go to college, man. And I know there's a lot of stuff I probably missed out on. And that's why I'm glad we brought you on board because I know you have a really good formal education. And I'm looking to learn from you. All of a sudden, there's no insecurity there.

It actually becomes a security. You actually look like a confident squared away person that's willing to learn and be humble. What'd you write down, Dave? At the very beginning, when you described the signs of insecurity, you compared to like looking for sharks. I love that image of like, hey, look out for this. What I wrote down was in my mind as I was thinking of what you were saying,

I wrote down Domino's Fall. It just, I was thinking about, and you just said it when you said, I wrote down, you wrote down the spiral. Like as soon as we take that first step, it's like the dominoes and you can see the path to destruction that will take

when you make that first engagement of, oh, I don't want them to know that I don't have this, or I don't want them to think that I'm dumb because, I don't have this. If you, that first tilt down that path,

you talk about the spiral. It's the exact same thing I was thinking of how bad that goes. But in the same breath, from the very beginning, the first step in the process you were talking about is, and we talk about humility all the time, how humbling and I really think, how liberating is it to accept nobody's thinking about me.

No one who's paying attention. Nobody cares about me or my background on my resume. And it gets to the counterintuitive nature. You talk about this all the time, how counterintuitive things are. The more you try to hide it, the more visible it is. The more my ego gets in the way to try to prevent what I'm afraid of, the more likely the thing I'm afraid of is going to reveal itself is just like,

nobody cares about you, man. And if I am humble enough to accept that, that they're not really paying much attention me. They just don't have the time. They really don't care. They're surely not going home devoting all their free time to Dave Burke. It's super liberty. I don't have anything to be worried about because they're not really trying to pick me

apart. and the worst thing I can do is draw attention to myself. I'm like, I wasn't paying attention, but I can't help. But look at Dave now because he's always trying to cover up this deficiency he thinks he has. And now all of a sudden, I'm the center of attention for all the wrong reasons. So that's what I wrote down, but just, man, if you can just accept nobody really cares about you or your background and what you've done and just stop thinking that everybody's paying attention to it, that's a liberating, powerful thing to get to exactly what you just said.

So that's what I wrote down. Nobody cares about you. That's such a good place to start, man. And it's hard. You have an ecocentric view of yourself in the world. And you think everyone notices you and they actually freaking don't. They don't. There's not one person that went home after that meeting.

It was like, gee, I wonder what Dave Burke got his degree in. No, no, no one did that. Actually, I take that back. You know who did do that? You know who did that? Someone that's insecure. Someone that's insecure about Dave Burke really did a good job in that meeting. I wonder what he's got his degree in.

That's who you're just dealing with insecure people. And everyone can see that they're insecure. So don't join in with them. Everyone can see that they're insecure. Don't join you. When Dave Burke leaves the meeting and I lean over to Lafe and say, what's his freaking degree in anyways. You know what that means?

That means Dave Burke just crushed that meeting. I'm insecure about it. And I'm trying to pick him apart. And you know what Lafe thinks? Leif, like, geez, Jocco is insecure. He must be intimidated by Dave's kind of a badass, right? That's what's happening. Don't fall into that.

Yeah. We need to make a flag that says danger. Insecurity risk high. You know, it's like, you know, the, you know, the, when, when this, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the tide is rough. When they're talking about, like, you know, you know, high, you know, it's like, insecurity is high right now. The risk is high. Yeah. Don't fall into that.

When you start feeling that, you know, uh, I think it's, yeah, Echo talks to me about this. We're like, another big guy comes into the jiu-jitsu gym. And it's like, immediately like, echo gets the feeling of, like, sizing him up and stuff. stuff, but he doesn't do that with like some little guy because you know echoes 200 and whatever 250 pounds. So some little guy doesn't really pose a threat to him. So therefore he's not insecure about that person. But when he starts seeing someone, all of a sudden he's sizing them up.

So if you start feeling insecure, it just means that you've met someone that's hopefully comparable to you and is going to kick ass. And the worst thing you can do is be insecure about that because everybody can see it. So if Dave Burke comes in in briefs, Laef and I and Dave walks out and I go, I wonder what he even got his degree in. Dave Lave knows, oh, Jocco's like kind of beta in this scenario. If Dave Burke walks out and I go, man, that was an awesome brief. That guy's as smart as sharp as attack.

Leif goes, oh, yeah, Jocco's assessing them, you know, that's cool. Don't be the insecure. Watch out for those flags. And as you just pointed out, the way you do that is you just, you just put your ego in check and be humble. Stop trying to prove to everybody what a smart, dynamic leader you are. Don't try you don't have to prove that to everybody every second You have to prove to them how smart you don't have to prove you don't have to prove you don't have to prove how tough you are You don't have to prove what a dynamic leader you are you don't have to prove any of that stuff and in fact every time you try and actively

Outwardly prove that everybody sees it as an insecurity and it's gonna make you look weak because you are So there you go don't let insecurity manifest itself or it will manifest itself All right. I think that's probably a pretty good place to stop. As always, if you want to dig deeper in this stuff, check out the Extreme Ownership Academy, Extreme Ownership.com. We have a bunch of courses on that.

We got two free courses right now, one by Dave and me, one by Jamie and me. Dave and I, you talk about the framework of extreme ownership and how to utilize it pragmatically there's some protocols you can follow that'll help you. And then Jamie and I talk about the obstacles to extreme ownership of which there are many. And you can easily rationalize not taking ownership. In fact, we should probably do a course about that.

Part of the barriers is that you can easily rationalize, but this really isn't my fault, but it actually is Dave's fault, but Dave should have showed up earlier, whatever the case may be. So that's extreme ownership.com. You can take some of those free course. We've got some other courses on there. We got a bunch of, well, actually, we have a ton of courses that you can sign up and take to learn leadership. Most important skill there is, because you can't do anything by yourself. You can't.

We can't do anything worth doing by yourself. So you're going to need a team. You're going to need part of a team. And that's why we teach leadership. Because if you're part of a team, no matter where you are on that team, you're a leader. So check that out at Extreme Leadership.com. If you want help inside your organization, go to Ashlamfront.com. We have a leadership consultancy.

That's what we do there. also a bunch of books about leadership extreme ownership dichotomy leadership leadership strategy and tactics check those out check out other podcasts I got a podcast called Jocko podcast I got a podcast for the kids called

The Warrior Kid podcast so you can check those out I got the unraveling podcast with Daryl Cooper as well and if you want to support any of these podcasts including this one you can go to jocco store.com you can go to origin usa.com or you can go to joccofuel.com

that's what we got going on Thank you for listening to Us Debrief. Now go lead. This is Dave and Jocko. Out.