Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 290 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Dr. Gabor Mate Et al.

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

Check out The ManMade Podcast with Adam Thorne & Shawn Helvey. This show for your mental health www.JREreview.com For all marketing questions and inquiries: [e-mail] This week we discuss Joe's podcast guests as always. Review Guest list: Dr. Gabor Mate, Max Lugavere and Jon Peters A portion of ALL our SPONSORSHIP proceeds goes to Justin Wren and his Fight for the Forgotten charity!! Go to Fight for the Forgotten to donate directly to this great cause.  This commitment is for now and forever. They will ALWAYS get money as long as we run ads so we appreciate your support too as you listeners are the reason we can do this. Thanks! Stay safe.. Follow me on Instagram at www.instagram.com/joeroganexperiencereview Please email us here with any suggestions, comments and questions for future shows.. [e-mail]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience podcast and pass them on to you. Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking dead. You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created. Now with your hosts, Adam Thorn. He did the worst podcast with the best one. One, go. Draw the show.

Before we start this week's review, I'd like to introduce an old friend of mine, Sean Helvey, who will be joining us for a review today. He and I have a podcast called The Man Made Podcast. It's basically therapy based talk where we discuss events in life and he breaks it down really well. He's a behavior of how a therapist has been for many years and is well respected in his field. He always has fascinating things to say. He's helped me a lot, just makes sense of my thinking. I encourage you all just to check it out. So follow that link.

And now he's gonna join us in breaking down a Rogan episode so you can get a bit of a feel for how he sees the world. I hope you enjoy. Hey guys, and welcome to a special episode of the JRE review. Interesting week. We got Dr. Gabel Mate. Is it Gabel? Yes, Gabel. Gabel. I like that name. Max Max Lugavir and then John Peters. He had some stories. You know, get to that guy later, fascinating life. Try and figure out what's true, what's not. We've got Sean Helvey here today from the Manmade Podcast.

Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Good. Glad to be here. And then Todd in a car somewhere remotely calling in. How you doing bud? Hey buddy, just yelling into the phone here. Nice to hear both your voices. Great to have Sean on. Thank you man. You too. All right, let's get into it. What an interesting dude. I didn't hurt of this person and I feel silly because so many people I know have and know his work. Well, have you heard of him Todd before this?

I had only through psychedelics. I had heard of him. He was in one of the psychedelic documentaries on Netflix. I can't remember which one. I don't know if it was the newest one with... Oh, the mushroom one. It's the same. Yeah, I think he was in the latest one. What is it, how to open your mind or how to change your mind? Mm-hmm. Okay.

I thought he was on that one during the mushrooms. If not, I had seen him on another pod or excuse me on another video documentary in the past. That was about psilocybin. Yeah. Well, at least I guess he's quite well now and people like him. They like following him. Ayahuasca. Hmm.

Okay. And you're a little familiar with him, right, Sean? The only reason I've heard of him is because I was at a retreat through an institute called the Anomas Valley Institute, started by Bill Plotkin. He's kind of one of the thinkers that I align with and kind of look to the most. And in that retreat, it's kind of a week long outdoor

experience with just a whole, it would take a while to explain the program, but his son, Daniel, was there. And then spoke to the fact that people may recognize him because of his dad, and that's how I became aware of his existence, but I haven't read any of his work and hadn't heard him speak until listening to this podcast. Okay.

Overall, what was your feel? I know you don't listen to too many Joe Rogans, but how did you find the interaction and conversation? Yeah. Well, and let me just say, so thanks for having me here. I am a licensed therapist, so in Montana and Tennessee, and I meet with clients, and really try to help people work through their stuff.

And so this is really right up my alley. And speaking to the podcast itself, I, you know, it just seems to me like Joe Rogan is a person who has grown up a lot, and is an excellent role model for healthy communication, open communication, being kind and honest with himself and with others about what they're talking about. And I really liked the exploration that they had together.

And just how he inserts himself, but doesn't try to dominate or, you know, because it's his podcast, be the one with the prominent opinion, but rather he derives a lot, in this case, at least he derived a lot from Gabor about his philosophy. And there was, there were some times where there was a bit of back and forth where he disagreed or a Gabor disagreed with him. And he said, let me just kind of push back there. And I felt like that was handled really just well and in an adult way. And in a way that I'd really like to see people handle their conversations a lot more. Yeah, it's interesting to get a breakdown like that from someone that's newer to Joe Rogan's conversations because

this so many preconceived ideas of what Rogan's show is for a lot of people that really haven't listened to it. You know, they've seen some snippets, some clips of him just being stoned with his buddies and then they just decide what this show is, like what he is, how he speaks, and it's always interesting to me when somebody gives it a chance and then they show they're like shocked, surprised with what the fear factor guy who's a UFC commentator can kind of do. the guy who's a UFC commentator can kind of do. Yeah, he's excellent. I would say my a version to listening to his podcast before was for different reasons than that. I've heard a lot of things that he said that I thought were thoughtful

and open and really actually cutting edge in a way. I think it's tough for me to listen to a podcast. I don't have a commute anywhere and when I'm at home, you know, I like to be present with my family. So I really don't listen to podcasts at all, but also I've long thought that his podcast was more kind of targeted toward a mid-twenties to early thirties male audience. And I'm just out of that range, but still out of that range. And it just, for some reason, I had this notion that it wasn't meant for me. And maybe that's changing. Hmm. It was tough. It's a time commitment for sure. I would be interested to know how most of you guys listen as fitted in your week to listen to that many Rogans. I assume people just

put on headphones and get on with their job. They just have the ability to do that, but a lot of people, a lot of people listen. So, it sounded like people, a lot of people listen. So it sounded like Gabor went on a bit of a journey. Like he wasn't always this guy, he was a doctor, the worked a ton, didn't have a lot of room for his family. And he also kind of implied that because of his childhood and upbringing, he kind of brought that trauma into his own parenting style early on. Like he wasn't really around, he wasn't really as loving as he could be. I guess it took him a while. What, what did it seem like was the catalyst for change for him?

Hmm. I'm trying to think back. I think it was anger. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry, I'm chiming in here. I think it was anger. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, I'm chiming in here, guys, but I'll just chime in for this one. But I think it was anger that he talked about and being a workaholic.

And he would get really upset easily and triggered easily by little things. Yeah, and I think it was creating trauma in his kids that he was starting to realize was the similar trauma that he had grown up with from getting abandoned by his mother and having to leave his family at such a young age. But that's what I got out of it. Yeah, I remember him talking about that. I think he also talked about just not feeling happy, not feeling satisfied with his life.

He had, you know, a family and money, but his relationship with his wife was not super positive and at some point, I think he said, you know, people would say to his wife, oh God, boy, is your husband? Isn't he so great? And she would kind of through grit a teeth have to agree, even though to her and the person that he was being to her. And that's that was by his own admission. He wasn't really a present or caring husband or father. Yeah, that would suck. It would be a tough position for her to be in.

They'd be like, oh yeah, he's so great. He hasn't called me for three days, but he's great. And his kids never see him. But I do, I see this as a trend, what he's doing, and there are others, I think, Brunei Brown prominently is somebody who lived a life of academia, of science, of research, committed a lot of her time to it, and then kind of separated from that world in large part because what she recognized and what Gabor talks about recognizing is, you know, if you're working 50 or 60 hours a week and, you know, not there for the people that you care about recognizing is, you know, if you're working 50 or 60 hours a week

and, you know, not there for the people that you care about the most, you're not really able to live or practice the things that both of them were coming to realize were the most important, like emotional presence, care, and love, that all of the things from their professional worlds were pointing to, this is what you have to do. And so from an intellectual place, they understood it for a while, and then at some point, Gabor applied it to himself and thought, oh, if all of these conclusions that I'm coming to are true, how does this apply to me? And he realized that it did not.

And so he changed course. It is fascinating when you take somebody that's obviously very intelligent and aware of what he's learning and good at what he does to see this kind of new truth, this thing that he's been ignoring, the really is was staring him and his family in the face their whole lives. And to change not just to change course, but to commit your entire life then from then on to that focus. It's almost like I can't believe I didn't see this or even, you know, anywhere as clearly as he is seeing it now and nothing else matters. But to figure this out and get

good at this and teach it to others. And that's a message that I've heard from you, Adam, in the last few years, a realization of a different way of being and then a commitment to the idea that nothing else really matters if you don't go down that path. But I would also say here that it takes an incredible amount of courage to take information like this that comes to you no matter how many times it does and eventually say, damn, I have to make some really big changes. Not a lot of people do this because what you're looking at here is a complete shift of your identity and how you operate in the world that if you,

at the beginning, if you consider it, it's daunting and overwhelming and extremely uncertain. And you can even, especially from a doctor's perspective, think about that. If you're a doctor in the mainstream medical establishment, and you're considering starting to talk a lot more about psychedelics and emotions as they affect our biology, which is not a super solid science yet. And it departs from your field. There's just a whole lot of consequences to that that you have to deal with to really go in that direction. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a brave thing. Because in a way, you've got to admit that you're wrong almost to yourself like wow how I was doing it was wrong and when you've been successful Which he was but only in business, you know and in his medical field

You know you people write on that success. They're like I'm doing things right because I make a lot of money And I'm well respected and I'm good at what I do. So all the things I must be doing are correct. Yeah. And I think that changing course there becomes the more successful you are in whatever you're doing. I think the harder it is to change course. So especially impressive in his case. But then it also, in similar to Brunei Brown, put them in this place of, it's almost like an even higher

status than if he hadn't gone that way because he can reflect with, I think, what most of the people in our culture are currently still doing and understand that deeply and it gives him a much higher level of credibility than if he had just known this all along and couldn't really relate to that place of having gone that other way. Yeah, I found it really interesting when he was talking about people that struggled with heroin. He had some experience with these people and a lot of them describe that as being like a warm blanket put on you from your mother or a hug. Yeah. And it's just this like lack of love response. And it was fascinating to me that at the beginning when he said you just can't love your kids enough. I'm glad Joe brought up the

kind of helicopter parenting effect and and define the difference. Like why is that why is there a problem there? Because I've often thought that I'm like, well, you can't just baby him too much. That was an excellent part of the conversation and just to kind of close that last thought, I think what Gabor has done really well and did in that interview really well, at least, is he showed an incredible amount of humility, to make that huge shift. You have to exactly what you said, Adam.

You have to be willing to admit that you were wrong. And a lot of the things that you were doing were wrong. He even said at some point that he was prescribing things to people knowing what was right and not applying it to himself. So he got ADHD medication at 50. And he was like, I would never have prescribed that to a patient. I would have talked to them about what was going on and tried to help them sort through it. And then that's what I did for myself. So he wasn't ready, but it takes a lot of humility to change course. And yeah, so that idea that he talked about,

I think it's really cool to discuss how we can best care for our children, especially in their first three years, in their formative years, when they form their attachment style, and that you can't love them enough. But then the piece where he discerned it from the mom's boy, that's what Joe Rogan called it. What about these mom's boys who just whose moms are always there and then these kids become not independent in any way as they grow older.

How is that different? And I thought, go, boy, really kind of differentiated it. And he said, those parents are often attending to their children from a place of anxiety, from a place of fear of their fear. And so really when that parent is responding to their kid, it's not about their kids' needs. It's about the parent's needs. And they are actually validating to their kid. It's not about their kid's needs. It's about the parent's needs.

And they are actually validating to their children. You should feel anxious. There is a lot to be afraid of. And that's the message that it passes on. Mm. So from like the kid's point of view when that's happening, they are not requiring like a big hug and a lot of coddling at that time yet they get it anyway.

And they're like, okay, this doesn't seem necessary right now. Sure, exactly. And it also kind of promotes the idea and the child that they need their parent to do that for them and that they can't do it themselves. So I think, and I would wonder to you Todd, I know that you're a fairly new father. How did that information strike you? What did you take away from it?

I think for me, I really focused on the anger because I can get angry sometimes and I've really tried to deal with my own personal anger away from my kid, but sometimes I still, you know, I end up raising my voice or yelling too much and it just reminded me that that can be a trauma just as bad as spanking or, know hitting even I mean he made it sound like this anger and some of these things that can be traumatic to your children that you don't even realize you're doing can be very traumatic later later in life and then to take that and say that genes

aren't even hereditary you know that some of these these addictions aren't hereditary excuse me you know that some of these these addictions aren't hereditary excuse me yeah but are caused by trauma at a young age that was just mind blowing to me that that part of it yeah and great and anger is too and he but he talked about I think not necessarily as a parent repressing our anger either right because that is that gives our child a false sense of a person's reaction to their behavior, but finding a way to communicate your anger in a productive way, in a healthy way that doesn't lash out at your child. Absolutely. And letting your child be angry too, and not just throwing them in his or her

room and saying that anger is bad because it's okay to express those emotions but yeah let's figure out how to express them in a healthier manner. Totally and if it's not bad for the kid then it's not bad for the parent either so our job as parents is to model what it's like to healthily own our anger and what we can do with it. And just to say here, I'm a new dad too and my daughter is 13 months old and just so much of what he said, are things that I already

and doing mostly and it just kind of helps me to want to push into it even more and and really make sure that that my daughter is, you know, feels supported and loved. And I don't think that always means jumping every time something happens, you know, I think there's a way to when a child is experiencing an emotion to be there with them, but not necessarily tell them that you are responsible for their emotion, just to offer them your support.

And if in times when they can't handle it themselves, that you're there to carry it for them maybe, but other times to just be there with them in it. So it's not this super reactionary, oh my kid is crying, I have to jump up and be like, oh you poor baby, I'm so sorry, but more like, so what we've been doing with my daughter is, if she falls when she's walking and starts crying,

we don't say, oh my gosh, or you're okay, but we do go, oh, that was scary, huh? Right, so just to validate her in that experience and then be there, but we do go, oh, that was scary, huh? So just to validate her in that experience, and then be there, if she's crying, I'll pick her up and hold her. And those are times that she really needs me, but not to jump to that too quickly,

because sometimes she falls and I say, oh, that was scary. And then she looks at me and she's like, how scary was it? And I'm like, well, you're the one that gets to decide kid. And oftentimes she'll just get up and keep walking. And I'll be like, all right. Well done, good recovery.

Nice. You know, there was a lot of, I guess, good advice for somebody that is a parent to think about, you know, their attachment style, their childhood, and how they can now do it better with their kid. But what about people out there, and people listening that don't have kids yet, and are younger, and maybe had to experience parenting

that wasn't as nurturing? How do they go about moving forward without a kid and think about also, I guess, giving this kind of positive love and caring to maybe their relationships or even trying to rebuild a relationship with their parents, which is useful. Yeah, those are two. It's a lot. Those are two different questions, but I would say actually it starts with rebuilding it within yourself.

And I don't know that this is certain, but I believe that at some point, and it was just a very brief statement that Gabor made, but he talked about self-kindness or, you know, yes, he did. And he said it in such in words that are really consistent with my belief. He talked about that if you do something that is wrong, that you determine to be wrong, to watch out for coming after yourself from a critical place, but instead to look at what you did from a place of understanding which leads to forgiveness. That's my piece that I'm adding, because understanding does lead to forgiveness. When we can understand what we've done and why it was wrong, but also why we did it. We can understand our patterns and the pieces from our past that are present in that action, then we can forgive ourselves even though we know we want to do something better the next time, or we know there's a better way.

So I think that for a young person who doesn't have a child, that starts within yourself. How you treat yourself when you make a mistake is going to be consistent with how you treat other people when they make mistakes. And so if you want to improve your relationship with friends or your intimate partner or even eventually your parents, which is a huge, a huge and very difficult task for most people, the place to start is within yourself. Hmm. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

And that last bit I said, you know, how we treat ourselves is how we treat other people. That's most often true. It is not always true. I definitely know people who are very harsh toward themselves and are very kind to others. But most often people who are harsh to themselves are also harsh to others. And it just has a, the generative effect on the relationship, right? You can never feel safe making a mistake because you just think that it's wrong and you just forego the process of ever understanding why a person does something, but as a counselor, I hear people's stories every day, and there's so much consistency between them.

People struggle with the same behaviors, then they judge themselves negatively for it, then they feel guilt, then they forget about it, and then they just do it over and over and over again. That's a pattern that people get stuck in these behaviors because they don't ever start changing that process of taking the time to say, hey, okay, I'm a person. A lot of people make mistakes like this. Why am I making this mistake over and over again? There's a reason. Maybe there's

something I can do about it. And I can also say that probably being harshly critical of myself, when I do it, has not gotten me to change it. So I can eliminate that as my path forward and start exploring other options. Well said. You know, the last thing I want to touch on kind of moves into that when a gobo was saying that we have multiple brains. So, you know, and people say, follow your gut, and there's been a lot of talk about your stomach, flora, and all the neurons in there,

like having some sort of like kind of brain. But whether it's a metaphor or not, I think it's interesting that he kind of separated these three spots, your brain, your heart and your stomach. And you know, it's easy to be stuck in your head, being logical with all your thinking and trying to think yourself through your own emotions. Yeah, that is what our brains naturally do. It is easy to get stuck there. And the smarter you are, the more you'll lean on that, and there is just a huge limit to the amount of solution that your brain alone can provide.

I often say this as like, it would be like, so if your brain is a computer, which it is sort of is, and your heart and stomach, your emotional world is like art, creativity, this would be like asking your computer to draw a masterpiece. Which of course, if you've been reading articles lately, a lot of AI programs are now drawing masterpieces, and one

actually won in an art festival recently. But that is not the point. That is just fine and great for those AI technologies, but the point is computers don't make creative pieces of art. All those AI programs are doing is copying other great pieces of art. They're not coming from a place of inspiration and something that's true creativity.

Like telling a really good story built joke, I think AI's will be able to do all kinds of art a really good story built joke. Right. I think AIs will be able to do all kinds of art before they can do a solid like our standup. Because there's too much emotion in there. Right. Yeah, little personality elements. There's so much nuance to it.

I have something to add to that, gentlemen. Yeah, let's hear it. Well, I just, I think I'm glad you brought that up, Adam, because our emotional, when he said that our emotional system also governs our immune system and our hormonal apparatus, it just makes me think about the amount of times when I'm stressed out and I don't want to eat and then you

may end up getting sick because you start thinking negatively and it just affects your entire psyche, your psyche affects your entire body and then it affects your immune system. And it's all based on stress and then all of a sudden you get sick. I mean, it makes sense when you think about it, but most people aren't thinking about it that way. And to talk about women who have, who have like, you know, a 70 or 80% higher risk of autoimmune diseases because of their stress and their pent-up anger because women are, you know,

Gabor was talking about how women suppress their anger a lot. They're not like men. They don't get angry as much as we do. And is that the reason why there's all this autoimmune disease? I mean, that link to me was fascinating. It is a, I think, becoming more and more spoken to as a huge factor in any biological illness is how our emotional world affects it. And it does seem pretty clear to me too that when you start to just track yourself as an organism, you'll notice that those things are all related. And I agree with you Todd. And it has a lot to do with your diet and your sleep too. And both of those things, when you have, by the way, when you take good care of your

biological body, you tend to have more space to process your emotions in a healthy way, right? And the more the more that your organism isn't well taken care of from a biological place, the less extra space you feel to deal with the profound depths of the emotions that you feel. And it feels overwhelming and then you tend to avoid it. Yeah, what a great guess though, and what a great conversation. And how about you Adam? Because there's one other piece that we didn't talk about

that I think would be cool to touch on before. Let's do. I go, but it's the use of psychedelics in understanding these things as they discussed it on the podcast. Yeah, we definitely should hit on that. Yeah. I just, I'm amazed. I'm so grateful to Gabor for having gone through his journey

with this because there, I think that what's happening is, well, similar to how our brains are getting separated from our hearts and our stomachs, our stomach brains, the world of healing is also very separate. So you have these groups of people that are like psychedelics, man, you got to do them and they're the way and you'll have some profound realizations that will change your life. Which is true. And as a person who's used psychedelics myself, I can attribute a lot of the big realizations in my life to those experiences. But the other piece that, and I think what they really focused on was the limitations of using psychedelics for

these realizations alone. They said multiple times that it is a part of, it can be a part. It doesn't have to be either, but it can be a part of your healing journey. The shortcoming is, because what you experience when you use psychedelics, as they talked about, and I agree, is your habitual mind goes offline. And you become in touch with these truths about our existence and being in the world that you lost a long time ago because of your conditioning, because of your environment, because of how you were attached to your parents. And that realization in those moments when you're under the influence are huge.

I mean, anybody who's done it will attest that they understood something in those moments that they felt to be absolutely true. And then the next day, try to ask them to tell you about it. What did you experience? What did you understand that you hadn't before, almost impossible to put it into words, and then the other piece and the really difficult piece and the piece that I think a lot of people miss

with this type of healing is integration. You have to take what you learned, which is unfathomable, which is intangible, which is something that you can't put in towards, and you have to let it, and I'm gonna use an expression that I've heard from a lot of people that I really respect. You have to let it work on you.

Right, so if you now take your logical mind, which is conditioned with all your habitual patterns, and you're like, okay, I'm going to take my realizations from this experience, and I'm going to plot them out on this chart, and then I'm going to apply it. Not going to work. It's just not going to work. It's only. Yeah. So what you're better served to do, rather, is allow that feeling, that state of knowing something that you, that in those, at the time that you were under the influence,

that you knew to be true, to let it work on you, to bring it into your awareness and allow it to tell you those messages in the ways that it does, which are abstract and non-linear and non-logical, and just be with it every day over time. And what will happen is those realizations will come into your being in a way that at first isn't really comprehensible, but eventually will lead you to looking at situations differently and understanding them a little bit differently and

slowly and over time, your understanding of that message as it applies to your life will become more and more profound. And eventually and hopefully to the point where your new habitual way of being has integrated that understanding. Yeah, that's why I want that maps program to really take off. So we have a lot of Therapists that are legally allowed to guide people through these experiences because right now it's Charmin, you know, right quotes

Charmin Based and you don't know where you're getting. Maybe you get a good referral. That could be useful And I'm sure a lot of them really put their heart into it. But you know, talk about that. What is maps? It's the the program that is trying working with the FDA to get licensed therapists, I probably psycholosecarch. So still I've and assisted psychotherapy? Not just that, MDMA. Right. They also do cataman.

And what is the drug that they go down to Mexico for? Remember the name of that one, Todd? Is it GHB? No, I began. Oh, yeah, that's the one that they talked about, too. Yeah, so, and that's way off, I think, but also has shown a lot of problems. Yeah, I don't know all the things that they're trying to expand in all the directions for useful work and the FDA is on their side, even though it's tricky, because none of these

drugs are legal and they're not going to make them legal for this. So it's kind of like the unspoken rule part of it. They're like, yeah, you can do that, but we just won't pay attention to it. And they're expanding these clinics all over the country. There's already a ton of the ketamine ones. Right. And I agree that this needs to be a more accessible part of the healing journey. And in a way that I think it would be the most beautiful if we were able to combine the

medical and scientific side of our understanding with this other side, which I don't think that we'll ever be able to completely quantify. What we can do is quantify results. I don't think that we'll ever be able to understand the mechanism because it's not for us to understand. But that that union could be absolutely beautiful. But again, it will be based upon not just having an experience with a therapist who takes you through, who facilitates a journey on a substance with you, but then also the after-the-fact integration of the learning that happened in those moments. That's going to be a super important part.

Right. It's not a free fix. No, and that's, I think, the biggest message that I would say just in general that I'm always trying to espouse is nothing, no path forward in your healing journey will be as quick as taking a pill or as coming to a realization in a moment. That's not how it works. It will never work that way. Change is slow and gradual and the reason is because of all of the habitual ways that we have come to be based upon our attachment and our experiences. And to unwind those just takes time. But it can be done.

It definitely can be done. And I think for anybody who has really had the courage and humility, and that's a word that I would really use for Godbor, I think he really showed up humble. Even the way that he talked about the shaman at the ayahuasca retreat, pulling him out and saying, hey, your energy is too dark and we're gonna work with you alone. And all of these people who have come here to work with you,

they're gonna just work with our other five shaman. And he said his ego struggled with it. And then Joe said, oh, did you have a hard time accepting it? He said, no, I accepted it immediately. I knew that they were right that's I mean imagine what he had to give up in that moment to accept that and To be able to do that shows great humility and it is an Important quality an important value to possess if you're going to go on this journey

Hmm That's great. Yeah, that must have sucked for him. Yeah, because he's going down there as like the man. The man. And then they like, dude, you're all fucked up. You're all fucked up. Yeah, you need to go sit over there. Like unbelievable.

Wow, wow. There we go. And he dedicated all the rest of what he does to this, which is awesome. Yeah, I love that. Look, I know you need to get off Sean. I do. I want to thank you for joining us today.

If you enjoyed the conversation and I have many, many great conversations with Sean, I love his breakdown and insight into most subjects. Please join us on the Manmade Podcast. There's going to be a link in the bio get you over there There's a back catalog in there. We'd love if you used to put up and talking and listening to me talk That's going to be fine. You could be at a tolerated but everything Sean brings to the table is always good So thank you for joining us today Sean. Hey, thanks so much for having me on Adam All right, let's jump over to

Max Lugavir. So yeah, make sure your insulin sensitive is possible. Is like a big thing that he said. Insulin sensitive. So I don't know. That to me at first sounded like a bad thing, but I think I just didn't understand exactly what he was saying. But I think he's saying, don't overwhelm your insulin response in your body with like too much sugar all the time. Is that what it was? Yeah, that's what I got out of it, man. It's just put, you know, the minimal amount of sugar in your body, and you should be okay. And, you know, obviously, exercise was a huge, huge, huge factor in both Alzheimer's,

you know, staving off Alzheimer's, as well as, you know, creating this body that is going to be healthy for a long time. It's not get sick with Alzheimer's because you're not putting shit in your body and overly processed foods. Yeah, the processed fooded one is difficult just because it's everywhere and it's quick and it's, you know, if you're in a rush, like so many people are in a rush all the time and it's like, oh, I just get this crappy meal just quickly. But I guess we just don't really often think about the consequences of, you know, a few McDonald's here and there. Probably adds up pretty quick.

McDonald's here and there probably adds up pretty quick. Yeah, I'm sure it does. I don't think it I think if you're putting all that other good stuff in your body most of the time though, I think having a burger from Mickey G's every once in a while is is okay. Yeah, you're probably right. I mean that's another thing. It's moderation, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, have you read his book? I mean, that's another thing. It's moderation, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, have you read his book? I looked into his book after the podcast. I definitely want to buy it. Yeah, I mean, he, I liked a lot of what he said. And again, he starts off by saying, well, I'm not a doctor. I'm not formally trained here. But oftentimes these journalist types, I'm not formally trained here, but oftentimes these journalist types, they're really good information collectors and organizers of information.

So in some ways, they're just really good researchers, but not in the academic sense of research, but they do a good job of collecting a lot of information and working through to what seems to be the most like the truth in it, or at least you would hope that from a good journalist. Yeah, absolutely. And well, and he has a link because of his mother with the Alzheimer's thing that created this sense of Urgency from him it sounds like he devoted his life to it because of what happened with his mother. Yeah

I like what he's gonna create. I like what he said about if he had it what he would do and it was to get on the ketogenic diet and That one like he doesn't think that ketogenic diet. And that one, like he doesn't think that maybe carnivore ketogenic is sustainable for an entire lifetime, but it definitely has its place. Yeah, I mean, he was, he was also talking a lot about having a salad a day, keeping the doctor away. He said that towards the end, but I appreciated that because I do love meat. And when you and I went on the all meat diet, it felt amazing, but I also was also eating salads as well

with minimal dressing. I think the dressing thing is huge to keep even Joe talked about that with not having those processed dressings and seed oil, you know, that only olive oil should be the only thing you eat. Yeah, it sounds like a lot of olive oil you should eat. I don't know if I eat, I don't think I consume enough olive oil and I like it. I should. I could put it on more things for sure.

Yeah, that salad thing was huge for me though. He called it the lutein and Zoe Zanthine. It says they're in like yellow and orange produce, so like peppers and then also leafy greens, like kale and spinach and stuff, but those are two molecules that protect against cognitive decline in huge numbers. Yeah, I don't think about a salad's going to hurt anybody.

Even if you're doing keto or carnival, I mean, there's got to be some good stuff in certain vegetables. I just get lazy with salads and kind of, I don't know, I just forget to eat them all. Oh, if I'm in a restaurant, I just don't think to order, you know, you can get steaks laced up on a salad. And I never think to order that. Right. It was a bit bummed that he didn't like butter, that he had some harsh words. Heavy cream is really good.

It has those glob yellow eids or whatever that keep it all uniform, but as soon as you turn it into butter, you lose that. So he was a little against butter, which is a bummer, because I was just getting behind butter and adding it to everything. I know. I was feeling that too, man. He said it was the milk fat globule membrane, which is beneficial.

It gets taken away when they turn it into butter. Yeah. Yeah, so it has a negative effect on blood lipids. So butter can have a negative effect. So yeah, maybe we should cut back on the butter and start just doing heavy cream. Well, I like doing heavy cream in those kind of bulletproof coffees.

That's a great addition to put in there. So I don't really know what else I would have heavy cream on. I guess they use it to like, what did it just add to sources, right? For like pasta and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess it doesn't really work in a pan though as much. If like I use butter so much to, you know, when I'm sauteing veggies and stuff like

that, I guess I'm going to switch to olive oil now when it comes to that. Yeah. Cook it up. Any, I guess you said, higher temperatures it uses, I think sometimes at the avocado oil or the beef. Yeah. Taloyne. It's supposed to be better at higher temps. I guess it doesn't break down whatever's good for you inside of the oil. Yeah, you're supposed to use avocado, but how often are you really using that high of temperatures? I don't know what the temperature is on that.

Yeah, I'm not sure unless you're, I guess if you're cooking a steak, it's getting pretty high. So if you're doing that in a pan But I'd still start with butter come on you got to do butter I got a potter on steak. I Would maybe just don't eat so much bottom. I don't know But it's so important to get these types of messages because again, they talked about what was it the tufts Compass that's stupid chart, they went over from Tufts University. The JRE companion Instagram, which I love, the guy over there is great and always posts such good Instagram posts to go along with each podcast and he put that chart up.

And some of the comments were just brilliant. You remember some of those? It's like, oh, the tough guys must work for Kellogg's. Yeah, because the, okay, so it has this rating system. And well, I guess most people would probably know this because they already listen to the To the podcast, but having Frosted miniweets as like the top four it was in the I think it was the fourth one down was frosted miniweets Yeah, unbelievable like what no way is that shit?

believeable like what? No way. Is that shit? No way. That's good for you. It can't be. No way. And then egg yolks, egg yolks in, or excuse me, not egg yolks, but egg whites or an egg substitute fried in, in oil is better for you than just an egg with an egg yolk. Like, it just, I would say that that thing is completely bunk. Yeah. It's, I don't know who the hell. Well, the big thing is we don't know what factors they were looking at to develop that chart. But whatever factors they used, it just does not read well. It just doesn't make any sense to the average person's body to I mean there was like highly processed shit near the top And I just can't ever believe that's gonna be good for you It was almost like this is the food you should eat if you don't have access to better foods This is the way I said

You know like if if you want to get your vitamin C and you can't get it elsewhere, then drink sugary orange juice. It was just very strange. So, yeah, I would say steer clear of that study. And also, the other study that they talked about that was debunked as well or completely falsified is this Alzheimer's study that this Sylvan, Dr. Sylvan, let me look at my notes here.

Dr. Sylvan Lesney from the University of Minnesota, they were talking about how it's called the Elm-Elmaloid hypothesis about how your brain ends up getting these plaques on it if you have Alzheimer's, right? And this doctor was saying that, you know, in a rat study or a mouse study, they had injected it with this certain, I'm not sure what the injection it with, but it created this, these same plaques. And she was saying that what she was telling everyone in the medical field is that she had found a way, oh that's what it was, she had found a way,

oh, that's what it was, she had found a way to get rid of these plaques in a mouse, right? And all of their pictures and stuff were completely, they had been flagged on a pier sight because of image doctrine. So she was totally, or he, I'm sorry, was lying this entire time about these plaques in the brain and how they had been completely falsified her papers because they had

used Photoshop or some sort of, you know, copy and paste method and it was falsified and they've been using this drug. You know, and it was it was is been used for Alzheimer's patients and it's off of a paper that was was absolutely false and they're still using it to this day. And it doesn't seem to help people and it's also causing like a bunch of brain swelling and tons of other problems. I can't believe that the FDA put that through because didn't he say like eight out of the 10 doctors on the board were like, this shit doesn't help. Yeah, well, now it's been, you know, the drug was not only approved, but it's approved off fraudulent studies.

Nuts. And they know that they're fraudulent and it's still been approved. Like they need to flag that and take it off the market immediately. Well, these people have so much protection though. If, you know, the whole mRNA, Pfizer, Moderna, vaccine protection stuff, it's like,

it's all the pharmaceutical companies want to do moving forward is, yeah, we make your drugs, but if we mess up, you can't sue us. And it's like, hold on, how good at making these drugs are you going to be if there's no consequences for you doing a bad job? Like, you get all the money and then none of the backlash. It doesn't seem to work for my brain. Well, I think the best thing we can do and according to Max and this conversation he had is to just get rid of all this processed food and hopefully we live in an environment

that isn't full of pollutants as far as environmental pollutants and yeah good luck with that. Where are you gonna live? Alaska? I don't know, he talked about how you could go to Nigeria. But yeah it was interesting though to you know again and again this the same kind of topic comes up about just the way what you put in your body is going to help you in, you know, later in life. And they don't know exactly what creates Alzheimer's, but they are, you know, like you say, and as long as you're not putting a ton of sugar into your body, I think you can at least keep it from happening until you're old, right?

And like age was the biggest factor, so you can't really stop yourself from aging, but if you can do all those other things until you get old, hopefully you can not have Alzheimer's. I don't know. Yeah, I wish that they can just boil it down to a few things. And I feel like that's what we're getting closer to. So it's like after the Cubanman podcast about alcohol, it's like, okay, try to minimize alcohol. Look, we all love it. Most of us. And it's pretty addictive. And it's a lot of fun. But if you can keep that in a control, mostly it's going to benefit your aging. Keep your sugar intake fairly low, and it seems like tons of sauna. Exercise

obviously is super useful just for your body, your bone density, and feeling good, and looking better. But some people have injuries chronic or otherwise, and it's really difficult for them to exercise in any really structured way, but we can all sauna. And hopefully, you know, get access to it. I mean, I guess access is a bit of an issue, but most gyms have a sauna and gyms aren't that expensive. So even if you didn't go and work out, you could just use the sauna and that would probably be very beneficial for your health.

Right. Because again, he was just talking about the blood flow to your brain and throughout your body, right? That's the best thing for your brain. Yeah, what? Like exercise for your brain. And it's also exercise for yourself. It's the same in a lot of ways as cardiovascular exercise, even though you're not moving, because

it gets your blood moving faster, your heart pumping more, and you just sat there, which is really interesting to me. What was this study out of Finland that they checked in like most houses have a sauna there, so it's not a health bias, meaning, oh, in the US, most people are using soreners, also working out. Maybe they're a bit health conscious, but in Finland, it's just everybody. So they could even study people that maybe had pretty set in terry lives or pretty unhealthy habits. Maybe they smoke, maybe they drank a lot, and they are still seeing massively reduced negative health consequences

because they add this thing. And it's it's easy to do that. Yeah, that's amazing. It's easy. Just sit in there. Sure, it's really frickin' hot at first, but you do get used to it over time and then you can hang out there. Also get a cold plunge if you can. You know, take cold shower. That's usually accessible. And then you can kind of give you a few more minutes in there. Yeah, and eat your eggs, buddy.

Eat your eggs with the yolk. That's it. Oh, and the frosted miniweets, according to the tough compass chart. No, stay away from me. So stupid. I remember just staring at that chart going, what didn't anyone get finished with this and go, I think we fucked this up guys. Hold on, though, the mouthwash thing, we got to talk about that. Oh, yeah, that was so weird. There's some craziness about the mouthwash and after you work out how let me look at my note

tear it said, yeah, stop using mouthwash. It's creating a huge amount of high blood pressure. Right. Workouts and all the, what else was it saying after your workout? Well, there was a bacteria on your tongue that helps you break down some foods into nitrates or nitrites. Then you can make more nitric oxide, which is good for your muscles. It's in a lot of the pre-workout stuff.

But if you use a lot of this mouthwash, it's just killing that, stopping this process, message with you gains, and is really bad for your blood pressure. I don't know what dentists are gonna think about this, but I don't know, I don't really trust dentists anyway, to be honest, for the most part. Yeah, it said there was a huge spike in blood pressure for people who use mouthwash every day. That's nuts because that's what we're told to do. That's like what healthy people are like floss every day and mouthwash and toothpaste and keep the

Keep your cavities from forming and and who knows? Maybe it's like the opposite. Maybe often that's bad really bad for your teeth. It certainly seems like it's bad for the rest of your body. Yeah, don't do it. And stay away from the fluoride and the glycophate glyphosate or glycophate. Glacophate. Let's go with that. Yeah, the glycophate in your breads, stay away from that too. Bread so good though, that's such a bummer. Well, you can still get healthy bread and organic breads that don't, you know, aren't

sprayed with that roundup or glycophate. Right, yep. Make your own bread. Do Tom Parker. Yeah, go to a bakery that makes their own. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's ways around it. It's just good to be informed, I think. That's why these podcasts are so important because there are people out there that just

don't know. I learned a lot from this, right? So assuming that you think it's true and you're like, okay, moving forward, I'm going to be more aware of these things. They're probably actually quite small adjustments that you can make in your life and get pretty big benefits from. Yeah, I like this guy. I hope he comes on more. It sounds like he's going to, and I'd like him to be one of those recurring guests, even

if a lot of his message is the same. I think it's important to kind of go over that stuff again. I mean, a lot of Rogan stuff is very samey, but it's important to hear. It's important to have those good messages kind of be reiterated into your brain every three months or so and be aware of it and see what the new information is that's come out. So let's get this guy back on, hopefully. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm buying his book. It was Genius Life Genius Foods. Nice. Yeah. Well, let me know what you think of that.

All right, let's finish up with John Peters, what a character. He's like another example of those very famous celebrity types that have had a lot of power. They've been very famous for a long, long time. Joe's had, it's usually with rock stars that they come on Joe's show and they, you can tell, they're very full of themselves, you know, everything that they know to be true or they say is like fact. That's it. Like it almost seems like they don't get challenged very often. And it's kind of hard to listen to them sometimes because they they all seem to do the same thing where they go on these rants and they just used the people sat there listening to you. I feel like Joe handled it well, especially at the beginning,

when he, John was saying that he thought Luke Rockhoid in the UFC was like being a bitch or a pussy and you know, it just wasn't true. Obviously his understanding of MMA is like at least in the modern era of MMA was not super on point. And I mean, Luke Rocko is, you know, a savage in the ring. Like he's great. And what he was doing is showing a lot of heart.

And Joe was cleverly able to kind of turn that around to where John was like, Oh, yeah, good point. Yeah, he was great. And he is strong instead of just kind of giving him a bunch of shit. So that was clever. Joe did that without insulting him, you know? But there was kind of a lot of that balancing. Joe had to do in this podcast.

I'm almost glad it only went on for about, what was it like an hour? It was an hour, yeah. And I was, I yeah, and I was ready to leave the conversation for sure. I wanted to hear more about his movies because, look, the guy has produced incredible movies and he clearly knows how to sell his ideas and he clearly has a lot of amazing ideas. I mean that he's an idea guy and I will say that as much as his ego was bugging me I do think that he's trying to he claims that he's you know going to a therapist and you know his new wife who I think he's dating now or maybe maybe he's just dating her I don't know this new woman in his life that he

mentioned a few times is you know, having him listen to Joe Desperenza and go to therapy and He kept saying how she saved his life and he did talk about some of you know this anxiety that he's had his entire life that has been brutal for him. I did appreciate him saying that after all of the bravado in his stories, he did come down to earth a little bit there towards the middle. You know, but he was all over the place and it was hard to, it was hard to kind of discern where he was going most of the conversation because he was all over the place and look the guy has been a movie star but a producer of stars his whole life so how do you get rid of that you know you have to

kind of realize that what you were doing is insane and and try to slow down a little bit and it sounds like he's trying to yeah we definitely saw like both parts of that in there. Like the burrito stories of all the fighting I never lost the fight. I did a Superman punch. I beat everyone up. You're like, all right, dude, you're 80 years old. You're talking to me like my early 20 year old friends used to. But then you're right. He was, he did show quite a lot of honesty and humility throughout, you know, when he was talking about, um, God, even some really personal things, like difficulty with love making or, um, you know, almost sleeping with his friend's wife

and losing his friend and how difficult that was for him. And I mean, there's definitely been a lot of reflection lately for him. That's probably really useful. I would just say, try not to wait till you're 80 years old to do that because, you know, you might have a lot of things to feel bad about. Well, he said so much off the wall stuff. It was hard to decide whether it was true or not. I mean, near the end, he was saying he has a bullet in his chest and that it's still

there. Yeah. I actually looked it up online to see if it was true. And it was just, it just talked about, you know, other people mentioning it on the Joe Rogan podcast. That's all I could find about it right Yeah, I mean, I imagine there's there's some truth in all of his stories I'm very inclined to believe that his childhood was as bad as he said

You know, maybe he's inflating some of it, but you know, he saw his dad die and then I had to go to Juvie forever. He's definitely had a rough time early on and feels like he has a lot to prove. Totally. It re-kept reminding me of the first Gabor talk that we went on and on about today, because it was such an important chat that Gabor was talking about this trauma and how it creates, you know,

these stories later on in life, and it reminded me of this guy reminded me of Trump a little bit about how he just fabricated, seemed like he was fabricating a lot of these stories, and he thought that they were true, at least from what I could tell, what he was telling Joe, he believed to be true. Yeah, well, he's probably told them so many times.

It's hard to remember the exact details, because he does seem like a talk and a storyteller. And he's a, this is what he does. So he puts stories together for film. And, you know, you can change him in your own mind. We've all done it. We all have some stories from the past that we've told lots of times. You know, they make us feel great.

They make us sound great. But the reality is, it didn't really go that way. And when you hear enough of them, like you almost punch Jack Nicholson, Nicholas in the face, and you know, what was that? There's some guy broke into his house and he like jumped on him from a balcony and beat him up. He said he jumped on him naked, naked from a balcony. I mean, you know, maybe a lot of elements of that story are true, but it's, it's, it's just kind of hard to believe it and follow it.

And then it's a shame because it takes away from the other bits that are maybe more sincere and real and then to like feel for the person. And yeah, and again, a lot of this comes from trauma and we heard about that with with With our first guest with Mate. I mean, it just reminded me again and again this poor You know 77 year old John Peters is still dealing with so much trauma from his childhood that he can't even Telling on a story to this day. Yeah. It's fucked up. But super rich and has made a bunch of good movies. I love that he loved the new Top Gun. For anyone that still hasn't said that, it's dope. He said he watched it like 10 times. I'm not surprised. I can't believe only watch it want so far. It was so

good. Well, like what a brilliant story but that's it he's he's a storyteller anyway I mean his job is to take an average story and make it amazing so you would imagine a lot of these guys kind of do that you know fabricate things in their own right well he's good at doing that for storytelling that is for damn sure I mean he's good at doing that for storytelling. That is for damn sure. I mean, he's what is produced over 90 movies and most of them you've heard of. I mean Batman The good Batman too with Michael Keaton, you know, that was one of my favorites. Yeah, from when we were growing up which is a flash dance

Yep God though. What is the wherewolf of London one or wherewolf of no not were well for London? What is it? Rogan was talking about it early on. I thought it was Yeah, brilliant movies and they're all kind of different and they've got creepy elements and they're just good stories with great actors. I mean Yeah, what what an incredible life he's probably lived, but that's the end result is you got like a manic talker that no wonder he wore himself after an hour. I mean, it was wearing me out. Blasem.

Yeah, I mean, I did some research after, though, because I was just mesmerized by the amount of movies that he had produced, that I went and looked at as Wikipedia site and just looked up all the films, and it's an incredible amount, and they're all good. Yeah, it's maybe he actually want to go back and watch of the Classics that I enjoyed that he was a part of Yeah, it looks like there's a new film that just came out that's actually about him where Bradley Cooper portrays John Peters No shit called Likaris pizza Huh, yeah, they didn't mention it in the pod, but I noticed it when I was doing that some research and

Yeah, yeah Bradley Cooper portrays him while he's married to Barbara Streisand, so I'm gonna have to watch that one Yeah, that sounds interesting. It's worth it. I mean if Joe has them on again, you know It's it's kind of cool to get to know you know, maybe we have more patience for listening to him next time, you know, because you'll be used to how he speaks and we'll focus more on his life. Well, maybe Joe will like interview him slightly differently or maybe a little bit more relaxed because he did seem pretty revved up for sure. Yeah, I think there was an element of that for sure. And Rogan just didn't know how to treat it.

So we just let him talk I Thought I felt Rogan did a great job to be honest. I mean he kept it kind of fun He talked about MMA a lot just a kind of you know, and he was still willing to correct him when he was off or forgetting a fight His name or just getting a time period wrong and That's pretty useful to keep someone on track. Keep him honest. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, he did a good job by not speaking. I mean, he couldn't really speak. So what are what else are you going to do? Yeah, it was one of those. Well, let's

call it for this week. That was an interesting week. I liked it. It was interesting reviewing the different guests this week for sure. And it was great to have Sean on as well. Thank you as always, guys and gals for listening. Remember to go over to check out the manmade podcast. Again, the link will be in the bio for the episode. So it'll be at the top. You just click it and you can check out some of those podcasts that Sean and I

do and thanks um taught for joining us in the car from afar thanks buddy all right see you guys from afar you next week. Bye.