Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 322 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Michael Schellenberger Et al.

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

 Thanks to this weeks sponsors:  BetterHelp online therapy. GO TO https://www.betterhelp.com/JRER for 10% off your first month www.JREreview.com For all marketing questions and inquiries: [e-mail] This week we discuss Joe's podcast guests as always. Review Guest list:  Peter Attia, Michael Shellenberger and Rick Doblin A portion of ALL our SPONSORSHIP proceeds goes to Justin Wren and his Fight for the Forgotten charity!! Go to Fight for the Forgotten to donate directly to this great cause.  This commitment is for now and forever. They will ALWAYS get money as long as we run ads so we appreciate your support too as you listeners are the reason we can do this. Thanks! Stay safe.. Follow me on Instagram at www.instagram.com/joeroganexperiencereview Please email us here with any suggestions, comments and questions for future shows.. [e-mail]

¿Conoces la plataforma de música de Mao 5 estrellas? Vibramao es el lugar donde encontrarnos y disfrutar de los mejores directos. Disfruta de la gira Vibramao con Dan Infernan de Céinfinira de Conciertos y Festivales Nacionales. ¿Teones? No te pierdas nada a nuestras redes. ¡Sí que no se enarroba Vibramao! Hey guys and welcome to another episode of the JRE review this week. We have Peter Atia, Michael Shellenberg, a good old Rick Dublin of maps. What a legend. Join us always by my buddy Todd. What's happening, bud? What is happening, Todd? How are you? You know what? Feeling good today, buddy? I like it. You know what? Feeling good today, buddy?

I like it. You know? Did how the nice little workout always helps. It's important. It's important. And the sun is out. It is. It's finally actually warming up a bit in freezing cold forever infinite winter bozeman.

Yeah. Let's start the show. You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast. We find little nuggets treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience podcast and pass them on to you, perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've

created. Now with your host, Adam Thorn. He did the worst by casual, the best one. Two, one, go. Draw the show. Oh, Peter. Peter, Peter, Peter. I like this guy. So he's a medical doctor.

He always has a lot of good information. I didn't know that he was such a fight fan. I knew he had some training. I'm pretty sure he talked about it the last time he was on, but his knowledge of fighting and his connection to that world is like, it runs deep. I felt like they were gonna do the whole podcast about boxing and fighting.

Yeah, this is one of the ones where I wish I would have heard the first time he was on, right? He's been on what a few times, or is this number two? At least ones before. Yeah, yeah. And I think a couple of times actually. But yeah, cause they didn't talk about his book or anything really about what he's doing.

And he's a freaking madman, like kills it, longevity, science behind exercise and all this stuff that you and I talk about a lot. He's a great person to follow. His podcast has a lot of fantastic information. You know, he comes out you a little differently than Hugh Romans, but just as valuable, you know, over show.

And it was interesting he was talking about, what was it, V Shred about another YouTuber that has a huge following, but just basically says like dumb shit all the time. You know, there is a lot of that out there. I mean, it's so hard to kind of work through the weeds of knowing who to follow and who not to. I mean, more plates, more dates is a great one to look at.

I mean, there are some good people out there. And what I like is that they find each other in the YouTube space and give each other credibility. But the V-Shred guy has like two million plus subscribers. And I watch the couple of his his videos and it is so basic. It's almost like he has chat GBT, you know, what's like five motivating things I can talk about.

And he's just there on this bench press looking jacked and he's just like, yeah, make sure you got good friends around you and people hold you accountable to work out and it's like duh. I mean, maybe that works for people though. Maybe that's like kind of what people want, but I don't think there's really valuable information there. So I, you know, I happen to agree with PT on this one. I haven't checked him out. I think Joe was making fun of him for making fun of that V-Stread guy for just being so amateur

as far as the production. I mean, even the other dude, the date or the, sorry, the, let's say the other guy you just mentioned. The mole plates more days. Yeah, he's super popular. Yeah, he's legit though. Really legit. That's great research.

Smart guy. Well, Peter's legit though. Really legit. That's great research. Smart guy Well, Peter's a frickin smart guy too and the the biggest thing I took away from this was right at the beginning when he's talking about his anger problems I struggle with that and just being super self Critical critical right and this negative self-talk that he's dealt with his entire life I mean kind of brought that up right at the beginning. Yeah. He said he's good with drywall now because he punched a hole in every room in his house.

I understand that anger, dude. That rage comes out a lot. And in me, I don't punch walls anymore, but I have. But hearing him talk about how he deals with it now, and it said, once he was talking to his therapist or whoever he was talking about it, he mentions how he has to train himself to realize that when he's in those zones where he gets super angry,

that he has to pretend that he's talking to a buddy, that he's talking to a friend. Do you remember him saying this? Like, if I'm gonna yell at myself for messing up some code or whatever he's doing or writing his book and he freaks out and he thinks he's stupid, like, why the fuck did I say that? Or why would I think that?

This is dumb. He has to almost get out of his own body and talk to himself like if he was over the shoulder of a buddy working on the same project and say, hey man, it's okay, why don't you try this? Why don't you do it this way? You know, because none of us would yell at our friends like that, but we're going to yell at ourself all the time.

I get it, yeah. That's a good way to think about it. You know, think of all the conversations that you and I have, and not that we've had many situations where we would be really angry with each other or confrontational, but we do it in our own way. You've wanted to kick my ass a few times. For sure, but like I definitely would say

that every day at least once, I'm meaner with myself when I speak to myself about something I did, than I ever have been with you. Right. And that happens every day. So in a way, it's like, yeah, you kind of like pretty mean to yourself

if you don't pay attention. It's happened. Oh, dude. And I'm better than I used to be. A lot of times now I catch myself and I'll be like, oh, you're a dude. Like, well done for forgetting this. So I'll put that over there.

Like, I used to be way harder. I used to just be like, you fucking idiot! Like, you did. I hear you. I still do it. I still catch myself doing it. And yeah, it's... Well, cut it out.

I think for me, the best thing I can do now is with my son to not get angry with a two and a half year old, which is so silly to get angry at a two and a half year old, but all the parents out there understand, it happens all the time. And I just have to remove myself from it and just try as hard as I can to sit down and try to relate to this little human, right? And I think I'm going to try this technique. I'm just pretending that I'm talking to my friend or pretending that I'm talking to my son when I actually am. Right? So that was a huge, I honestly,

I wish he would have talked about it more, but what did he say? He's in his 50s now, and it took him until he was 46 to realize this. Yeah. That's crazy, man. Yeah, it's just an important thing to talk about. I think that there are people that externally might not even show much anger

and aggression towards others. And this is just kind of like one of those embarrassing shame for things that they have to carry around with them. It doesn't have to be that way. I think it's great when people talk about it. And they've come to a different place in their life, you know. I often think of that one you see really big guys that have always been big.

They're usually not super aggressive. I mean, you get a few, but they were just like these lovable kind of giant guys. And it's because in a way they didn't have anything to prove with their power, right? They were always big, big in school, big in college, whatever. And I think also because sometimes their power, right? They were always big, big in school, big in college, whatever. And I think also because sometimes their targets, at least the bars, you know, smaller guys

will have complexes around them and maybe test them. So they like have to take on this type of energy. And they just ultimately like, yeah, I don't, this has happened a lot. I don't want to be fighting. I'm not going to. Maybe, yeah, maybe I think that there probably happened a lot. I don't want to be fighting. I'm not going to. Maybe, yeah, maybe. I think that there probably is a lot of truth to that, but I think in Peter's scenario, it's more, this dude's been a perfectionist's whole life. He talks about growing up in a pretty affluent suburban area

where he's the only son of immigrant parents, so he kind of got made fun of his whole life. So there's always this self deprecation in his mind of like, I'm not good enough. You know, what did he say? Like, even when he was in grade school, when Sugar Ray Leonard was fighting these kids like, he lost, they like brought a bunch of sugar

and put it on his desk. Like, so he was getting made fun of, right? Yeah, he was getting bullied. And he's not a big dude. No. But it seems to me, he has just always been a perfectionist. He says it himself, right? So he just never felt good enough.

Yeah. And so whether he's big or small, I don't know where that comes in in his brain of that angst towards himself, I think, is more of his upbringing, right? And wanting to do better to prove himself that way, had nothing to do with strength. Yeah. Yeah.

And now look what he's doing. I mean, he's crushing, right? He's got what three kids. He said, you know, him and Joe both were really stoked about talking about their wives and how amazing their wives are, how lucky they are. I think that, you know, bringing that gratefulness into your life is so important. Well, it's just one of those things, right?

We've all been there to where our temper has betrayed us and our friendships and our relationships. It's just one of those things that if you're listening to this or you're still in a place where you struggle with your temper for whatever reason It's definitely something that is Kind of mandatory to focus on Mm-hmm You know, and there are ways to do it

there are people out there that can help you and There are resources and there are you know whether it be therapy or you just read about it and learn about it, meditation, who knows. But it's definitely something you want to get a control of because that's the point. You never know when it's just gonna, you know, go off and you gotta pay some consequences for that. And I don't know, man, it can be pretty brutal.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Getting to know yourself can be a lifelong process, especially because we're always growing and changing. Everything changes. Life changes are world changes. My co-host Todd changes. Therapy has been a very important part of my life. It has led me to want to become a behavior-reheal therapist, which I am currently in school for.

So if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help and try. It's a fantastic company. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Discover your potential with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash JRER today to get 10% of your first month. That's better help help.com J R E R. Yeah, there you go. Better help. What can help you read your temper? Todd changes, Adam changes. Get your change, John, baby. I love hearing those old stories of Rogan, especially when he's training, like stuff at his gyms. And he was talking about like, I think it was like in the early 90s,

he just switched over to kickboxing maybe from his national championship run of Taekwondo, felt like kickboxing had something else to offer, you know, maybe it's kind of a slightly more aggressive fighting style, but he talked about training and all teaching with those kind of like gangster guys and being in there fighting with them, dropping them here and there and just like hoping they won't shoot him. Like how dangerous do you think those guys must have been? Well, it's good for him, probably. It's good for him. Probably. It's good for him. What do you think about the book

they're talking about? I think Peter mentioned this book called Storm Before the Calm. These macro cycles that lead to transition, they happen every 30 years. There's this political and social cycle saying that both of these things are happening now in 2030. The last time it happened was during the Carter administration or right at the end of the Carter administration. I don't know much about it because I'm just, you know, I'm just going off of what Peter was talking about, but he was saying, according to this book that the next president will be the last of the current system we have, he says the elite class will not be ruling the country anymore.

Thanks for coming to the end of a structure where people aren't following this. People will not be following the same old system after this. Huh. It seems to be a lot of turmoil, right? It does seem like there is a change of foot. People are pretty freaking sick of, you know, the way a lot of things in politics are going. And I think there's less and less trust.

There's like massive divide, but there's, I think there's getting more and more independence that like, I don't, I don't, I don't freaking like either side here. Right, but also we have massive protests going on in France and we're not seeing it anywhere on the news. That is a huge problem. Dude, there's like huge protests in tons of countries.

We're not seeing it. No. That whole thing about the... Israel too. Millions, millions of people protest. Dutch farmers, there's some creepy shit going on over there. We don't hear a lot about, they do not want to talk about protests. No. Because people are uprising a lot about, they do not want to talk about protests.

No, because people are uprising, dude, and they're scared of it. It's real. Who the, you know, this just warms me up. Like, who really is in charge of the news? It's like someone is just like, okay, we're not going to talk about that because that's going to upset people. So we're going to just create bullshit stories about things that can upset people. I mean, they certainly like upsetting us. Well, we'll get into this with Shellenberger, but

just quickly, if the FBI is in on all of these tech companies that are showing us what happens on social media every day, and we're getting our news from that, clearly they're a part of all the news corporations as well. I mean, there's just no doubt. No doubt. No doubt. Let's, let's, one thing that he did talk about, which is just like an example of good behavior or training, which is the same as his aggression thing, is when he thinks about dealing with his kids,

like if his kids are being a real pain in the ass. And if anyone has kids, you know they're gonna do this. And if you don with his kids, like if his kids are being a real pain in the ass. And if anyone has kids, you know they're going to do this. And if you don't have kids, there's going to be people in your life that you care about a lot that are going to be a pain in the ass. And it's true, right? And he said that a friend of his told them, imagine being 80 years old and on your deathbed and thinking back that this moment right now, what they're annoying you is the last moment you ever get with them.

And the last moment you get with them at that age, or something, right? Maybe it's the last altogether. Then you'd really appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, man. It definitely makes a lot of sense. I think it just puts into perspective, especially when you're a parent, you realize how fast they grow.

I mean, I felt like we had a kid yesterday and he's two and a half. And it just goes by so quick, you hear it over and over and over, but until you're a parent, you don't actually understand how fast it goes. You just don't. Yeah. It's like trying to tell you, trying to tell anyone who's thinking about having a kid and they're everyone freaks out, especially men, at least in my friend's circle, the people that are wanting to have

kids are freaking out. And I get it. I was right there, but it doesn't matter. Because when you have them, it's just so different than what you could have ever imagined. You just deal and you just make it work. What Jordan Peterson talks about that, he's like that first four years is critical. It's going to be a lot of work. You're going to get very frustrated, but it goes so fast.

You'll miss it. Number one, and if you can just work on being as patient as possible in those first four years, like so much really positive development happens and they get to live their whole life that way. Yeah, which is fascinating. It's huge. That's huge. And this brings up another fact that they talked about with women.

Yeah. And it was like 50% of women that like get to 30 will never have kids. Yeah. The other 50% will... I can't remember that. No, I can't remember. I got it right here. Okay, women that hit the age of 30, 50% of them

will not have kids, right? Which is a pretty damn big number, but the crazy number is that 90% of them will regret not having children. Mm. That's crazy. Yeah. What women want to have kids?

Yeah, I mean, and then they also mentioned that for men it's very depressing for men who don't have children that are in their 60s and 70s And I think Joe mentioned this of just friends of his that he knows maybe some come comedian friends and You know don't have any kids don't have a wife. They're in their 60s Yeah, maybe even 70s. And I mean, think about how that is depressing just thinking about that. I mean, at least have a wife and you don't have kids. To me, these stats seem a little skewed, at least on the men's side, because I think if you have

a strong relationship with your wife, having kids are not, I'm not, maybe the woman regrets it, I don't know if the man regrets it, I don't know if the man regrets it. I'm just saying that they do. But that was also if you don't have a wife. Right. Then you just have nothing. I have.

You just get an old, long around. I look at, like, lonely, much quicker if you do life that way. It's like tons of fun, tons of freedom, but boom, you hit lonelyville real fast. Well, you think about it even just us in our forties, man. I think about all the things I used to like to do. I used to love going to the bar. I still like going to see live music when I can.

But going to the bar now sounds depressing as fuck. I don't want to go anywhere near a bar. I don't feel like going and just having drinks at the bar with friends, like I would rather, no? Not a grin? No, I mean, I share, I'm English bro, I'm going to the bar. Look, I still love.

What I'm getting at is the things, once you have a child, the things that matter are so different, but if you never have kids, I don't know if you actually, I don't know if it matters because you don't know what it's like having kids. You might regret the thought of not having children, you know what I mean, but you don't know what it's like.

So it's different. You probably drink a lot more if you don't have kids because you just can. Well, you definitely go on a lot more vacations with your wife if you're still partying. No, don't. What about 50% of Americans couldn't come up with about 2,500

for routine medical shit. That's pretty scary. And then medical bills are literally the first, second, and third fastest ways the bankruptcy. I mean, you don't really hear about that too, too much. You hear about those nightmare stories of people that just lose everything for medical bills. But you don't hear about those nightmare stories of people that just lose everything from medical bills. But you don't hear about it enough

for probably what's happening. I bet it's happening at time. Well, we don't talk about it enough. We should be. I mean, he's from Canada, right? So Peter's talking about how, yeah, you could get, in the States, you can get an MRI tomorrow and get knee surgery

the next day if you have enough money or your insurance good enough or whatever. And in Canada, you can't get that, but you can go to the primary care doctor and go to the emergency room, no problem and not have to pay anything. So there needs to be some sort of middle ground here, right? Like it's not perfect in Canada, but it's definitely not perfect here. There needs to be somewhere in the middle where we can be like, okay, because really most people just go to the doctor

for a checkup or a strep throat or a COVID test or these little things that add up, right? Like you go to the doctor to get on a prescription drug or whatever, maybe you're depressed and a lot, I think the scariest part in my mind is people will refuse to go get help because they don't wanna pay out of pocket for something that really shouldn't cost thousands

of dollars but does, right? So they just let it faster and then they get sicker and sicker and then at the end of the day, healthcare costs are way up because nobody's taking care of themselves. Well, even that thing, he said, for like routine, he would get the colonoscopy in New York with, you know, one of the top guys ended up being about two grand. Then he got one in Austin that finally is insurance covered. It's like 6,500.

He paid 2,500 out of pocket. Right. And it just really does make you think. And I've heard stories about wealthy people that do have insurance, but they have like the really high deductible medical stuff and everything else they pay for themselves. And I don't know if that was like

a way that they themselves can like negotiate the prices or they just pay it because it's almost the same. Well, because it ends up being cheaper if you pay out a pocket. Who knows if that's always the case, but if it is, you know, I feel like that should be something people should be educated on. I don't know, it's... There's a lot there. A lot to think about. Stay healthy, stay thin, work out, so you don't have to go to the damn doctor all the time. Let's jump over to Michael Schellenberger.

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See you soon. The Twitter files. Man. So Michael got a whole of those. So did Matt, Taiibi. they got to go through it all. That must have been fun. People waiting a long time for those files. And oh, lots to talk about. Yeah. You watch any of it. The Twitter files. Yeah. Can we watch it? No. It's just like read it. They didn't. I mean, they probably make like a I would hope that

Somebody makes like a documentary or something about it seems like a big deal You know, I mean that stuff about the Hunter Biden laptop and Government control and how they kind of took over I have a clip here. I want to play. It's a little Scary, but it gives you an idea of kind of, I don't know, what these, you know, government folks were up to. The Department of Homeland Security just declares election infrastructure to be part of their mission of protecting election infrastructure and then protecting the media environment, protecting, put it that in quotes.

It's creepy, it's patronizing, it's a power move. So that's the first thing that happens. They create something called the cyber security and infrastructure security agency within the Department of Homeland Security to supposedly protect the media environment from foreign influence. They create something called the foreign influence task force with the FBI to basically start

policing domestic speech on these platforms. They start organizing all the social media companies to participate in these meetings. So you had Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Facebook, in here. And he says to you, there's this critical moment where you ask about the Hunter Biden laptop and he goes, well, yeah, you know, in the summer of 2020, all these FBI guys come to us saying there's gonna be a hack and leak operation involving Hunter Biden, which is super suspicious

because as everybody now knows, the FBI had Hunter Biden's laptop in December 2019. Hmm, what freaked me, and I was, so by the way, I was a victim of the Hunter Biden laptop disinformation. I thought that, I voted for Biden. I thought that it was, I thought that that laptop was rushing disinformation.

I just bought the whole thing. And this is from somebody who, you're a journalist. I'm supposedly a journalist, right? I'm a, so- a journalist. I'm supposedly a journalist, right? So call a journalist. Yeah. So called journalist. I mean, he's a legit journalist, but the way we got get information, it did really come at us like, oh, this is fake. And this is how we should understand it to be true because with social media companies and government agencies putting that out there,

it turns out it wasn't. And they knew they already had the laptop. Yeah, look, this is the way I see it, man. I don't like how it's one side or the other, right? I could give a fuck less whose laptop it was. It doesn't matter. And really, in my mind, talking about the laptop over and over and over is not getting to the heart of it, which is our government has been spying on us since what Edward Snowden

told us about it in 2008. Okay. Let's stop talking about little things. I could give a crap less about Hunter Biden's laptop. I don't care. Of course, the government's hiding stuff from us. He was trying to win an election. Of course, he would do that. Trump would have done it. Obviously, any political guy is going to try and hide information just like, just like Trump was trying to hide storming Daniels from saying anything. It's the same damn thing. So in my mind, why are we still talking about one side or the other hiding this, hiding that everyone's hiding everything. It's a political move. Yeah, but it's significant because like the FBI did it. So what? The FBI is doing that no matter what?

No, but they don't work for Biden. Of course they don't. They don't work for Trump either. Right. That is the problem. So that's what we should be talking about, not the laptop. It should be more concerned about our government is spying on us. But again, we've known this since 2008, no one's been talking about it. The only reason to me this is,

I think you're missing a point here. Okay, what's the point? It's like, yeah, the NSA is spying on us, government is spying on us. But this was kind of an orchestrated ploy to hide something that they knew was like, just reports. Like the press, we're gonna get a hold of it. They were gonna talk about it

and it was designed to sway an election. Now, if it's the Democratic camp, or the Republican camp trying to do it, they're going to try. They do it. They have Jerry Mandarin. They have a lot of stuff that they'd like to play with. Right? They still have to stay within the law.

Otherwise, they're going to get in trouble, you know, like Watergate. But the fact that an entire intelligence agency decided to just do it and then influence social media companies. Yeah, it's crazy. Right. It's crazy it's not about the laptop. I don't care what's on that either. Though that probably would have persuaded if people had sold that at that time, that critical time, they would have been like, this looks nuts. Yeah. Again, though, the what you're saying is the bigger question, and the only reason I talk about the laptop again is because I don't give a fuck about the laptop.

I care that the FBI and the US government is funding others to keep information from us, right? They are persuading people like Zuckerberg to do a thing so that, and basically blackmailing him and saying, hey, we're going to shut your company down if you don't do this, right? That's the problem. Yeah, I don't know if it was that big, but they would make it. Sound like it.

They were making it seem like this is credible intelligence and it wasn't. Right. It was a lie and a trick. Right. And then the Aspen Institute doing fake cover-up scenarios to get the journalists and people on their side. I mean, that's crazy.

Like that is some major, major propaganda. No matter which side of the fence you're on, it doesn't matter. That is complete. It's just a complete kick in the nuts to our first amendment. Yeah, it's not good. Yeah. And they brought up the first amendment a few times. I mean, look, Michael's posts are still constantly being flagged on social media. Yeah. It's, it's almost like they've, they've identified him and probably Matt

as like, quote unquote, trouble. Like these independent journalists can't be trusted. Even though we get such bullshit news, like how many posts and videos are getting flagged from CNN. Probably none. Well, there's a bunch of bullshit on that. I don't want to take sides though. This isn't about sides because the same things happen in on the other side. CNN sucks. Whether it's CNN or Fox News, they are just doing

what the people watching them want to hear, whether it's bullshit or not. They're just feeding you bullshit that people want to hear. Right, but social media companies and not those companies. They should be flagging both CNN and Fox News often for things. Maybe they are. Maybe they are. I don't think they are.

Not like Matt Taiyibi, not like Shalamburger, you know, not like these people that have been banned from Twitter for like trying to do research. Yeah, I just I don't know who who's paying Matt Taiyibi. I mean, I like the guy. I think he's a good journalist. I think she'll bring a good journalist. Yeah, yeah, but you know, we don't know who's who's bankrolling him. I mean other than the people that are subscribing to his sub stack, I mean he might be getting paid from fucking Fox News. I don't know. He would news. I don't know. He would say, I don't believe that. You don't think so.

I think he could be like, I just have a, I just have a, a, a, a, I don't know. And what I'm saying is you, it's hard to tell these days who's paying who and whether they're independent or not. Yes, I, it seems to me that what's happening with the Twitter files seems to be true, but who knows what's getting hidden from the Twitter files? We're not hearing all of it.

We don't know. We're just hearing what we hear from Matt Teibi. Who's paying Matt Teibi to talk about it? I don't fucking know. Maybe Elon's bankrolling him. I'm just saying there's, this isn't just a right versus right versus left or he's right she's right we don't know that's true we really don't tell i'm saying but that but this is what we're trying to do we're trying to figure out right who we can trust exactly and i think that

somebody that will come on rogan and talk for three hours and do it multiple times you know and have other reputable news people like saga to you know, and have other Repitable news people like saga, you know looking at This type of reporting Kind of adds credibility to them. I think totally eventually heavy bias Are going to be highlighted and then you're going to get a real idea. I mean if somebody is willing to pay These guys especially to like have

an narrative, it's only a matter of time before that would be pretty highlighted. It's like, why do they have this like strange bias? Totally. What did you think about after they were speaking to Congress, an IRS agent shows up at Matt's house. That sounds like some sneaky ass pressure, dude. Yeah, man. No, it's, look, it's crazy. What's happening, right? They are freaking out. The government is freaking out. Yeah, we becoming like some sort of like Russian communist state

where they send over the government and, you know, members of the government to like threaten you and person. Yeah, I mean, this Renee lady that he kept talking about with this virality project. and members of the government to threaten you and person. Yeah, I mean, this Renee lady that he kept talking about with this virality project. And what was it? Yeah, you were talking about the agent showing up at his house.

It was an FBI agent. Didn't you say IRS? I thought it was IRS. I wrote down it was an FBI agent. And then this Renee Darietta, is that her last name? Anyway, they talked about needing a new church administration, which happened after Nixon was in Congress, right? They got everybody together, both sides, both parties. I don't think this will happen again because people are getting paid off Congress, right, they got everybody together both sides, both parties.

I don't think this will happen again because people are getting paid off left and right and everyone's too scared to tell the truth and lose their job. That's the problem. There's just too much money involved, but having an administration that overlooks what the hell is going on. I don't care what side of the fence. That really is, to me, is the thing that needs to happen, but I just don't believe it will happen.

Yeah, there needs to be accountability for the truth. Well, and it should be like a truth law that only applies to politicians. And it's like, you got to tell the truth. Like regular people mean you, we could just lie. How are we going to do that? We're just regular folks. I don't know, then, you know, fact check them, and then find out what they got their information, and then, you know, go into their emails, and be like, yeah, you clearly lied.

Well, I think it comes down to, again, it always comes down to money, and they both were talking about these scientific journals and these peer-reviewed things in studies where a lot of the times the study ends up being just what the pharmaceutical company wants you to hear, right? And so really it's, or it's funded by the government, but it's only will be funded if it comes with a particular outcome that they were looking for. That's just, we just don't know what's true anymore.

That's the biggest problem here. And I think I started mentioning that earlier when I was saying, I don't know who Taiybi works for. I'm not saying he works for anybody. Yeah, he's independent. We don't know who's paying for all of them. I like what you're saying. We should be suspicious of everybody.

Everyone, you know? Just because someone goes on Rogan, you don't have to just be like, oh, while that clearly the best guy, like if Rogan, you don't have to just be like, oh, well, that clearly the best guy like if Rogan vouchers for him Like we at least know he's not bought by anybody. So that's a good start You know, unless it's like a pro Spotify spokesperson. I can't imagine that there's gonna be much bias there Let's move on to Elon looking for the Fauci files. Well, the idea of the Fauci files.

Now we're talking. Dude, that's tight. I saw something the other day where he categorically said the NIH is never funded, gain a function research, and then even the NIH has come out and said, yeah, we did do that. Of course they have. And then they went back and spoke to him again in Congress. And he's just like, no, you don't know what you're talking about. Blah blah.

There's something really funky going on with that guy. I don't know why more people are not annoyed about it. I mean, people come to his kind of defense constantly. Look, he was doing his best and he's so smart and he's saving lives. I'm like, okay, look, okay. Maybe he is some of those things, but can we not look into it then? Can we not analyze everything? If he is this great guy, why can't we just check it all and see this this comes down to exactly what he said.

He said I don't remember or I don't know like 200 plus times in you know his interview with Congress, which is like by far the most that this one lawyer that knows a lot about you know people that have talked in front of Congress before was like, yeah, this is completely unprecedented. Nobody is alive. He's a liar. He's got to be. And he's covering his bases and he's scared and he's running and why?

Why? What did you do? How did you get us into a mess? Is this partially your fault? How do we not do this again? We need to know all those answers. I do. Again, it seems like a bit of a cover up and that's the scary thing about taking sides

and it's what I was mentioning earlier with Taibi. I like the guy, but I don't know what his intentions are. You know, he lost his freaking, pretty damn good paying job with Rolling Stone and then went off on his own. I don't know who's bankrolling him. I'm not saying any of these. He has a sub-stack now.

Right. Which is probably doing really well for him. I think he was saying he's making like 30 grand a month off of that or something, which is amazing. That's awesome. Good for him. That like I see that as a positive step in the right direction that we have independent

journalists doing sub stacks because we might get more of a truthful account of stuff. But what I'm getting out with with Fauci is that you have people who believed in him, right? And they were, they were on board with anything he said because someone was like a god of science. And everyone was so scared, right? Yeah. The fear created that. And now the problem is that people are not,

they're not retracting from that initial stance that they took with him. It's like if you tell, if you start, you know, if things start coming out that Fauci's a total fraud, which seems to be the case, in my mind, or at least you can tell he's lying about something, we don't really know what yet, but people don't want to believe that because they stand by this guy that he was like the savior at

the time and I get that. That's how he was portrayed. And there was a lot of people who were taking vaccines and were thinking this guy has got my back. He cares about us and they did a really good job with that. Here's my problem though. It's pretty understood that nobody thinks the same all the time and nobody thinks the same way the whole life. I hope not.

So why do people need to lock in? Okay, so you got an arguments with a couple of your friends because you were pro Fauci and they were against it and maybe Maybe they were quite condescending to you and you felt quite threatened and now you have to like Retract your statements because of this stuff coming out, but you can't do it your ego's too fragile That is the problem and you're afraid and you don't want to look like an idiot So you just want to ignore it. ¿No podemos mover a todos? Eso es lo que me hace mucho. Vamos a mover a todos todos.

Vamos a verlo y a ser amigos. Y, ¿no? A verlo, no podemos estar a la parte de todos. No es nada de eso. Creo que es importante encontrar la verdad. Claro que no. No podemos volver a esto. Y es OK que tú eres muy desfraco. que lo que realmente fue. ¿Conoces la plataforma de música de Mao 5 estrellas?

Vibramao es el lugar donde encontrarnos y disfrutar de los mejores directos. Disfruta de la gira Vibramao con dan infernán de cien finira de conciertos y festivales nacionales. ¿Teones? No te pierdas nada a nuestras redes. And as this whole thing progressed, didn't start to figure out that maybe some of it's bullshit and turn your back on it. Right. I mean, you, since I've known you, took like a pretty 180.

Yeah. I mean, I was always skeptical, but because of my family and my kid going to daycare and the vaccine was required for daycare. And that sort of thing that... But what I'm saying is you kind of evolved with it, right? You even lock in stubbornly and say, I will never change my stance on this. Absolutely. And I will defend these people forever. I had a hard time believing the hype and believing pharmaceutical companies,

but that is, you know, that's me looking at, you know, lung cancer, you know, and my grandfather having to quit smoking because, you know, because cigarettes are really bad. And when he was smoking two packs a day, everyone thought they were fine. Doctors were smoking six. These are the same companies that are trying to tell us it's safe. So I just wasn't that naive. I wasn't against it, but I was skeptical, right? The problem that you mentioned is ego. People do not want to admit that they were wrong, dude. That's really all it is. That's really at the heart of the problem is that people cannot have an open conversation and say, yeah, I was wrong, dude.

At least most people. And here's the thing. Generally, I find that the smartest people I know are the people quickest to say, I made a mistake, what's the correct answer? And then I will build on this and then keep learning. And they can keep adjusting, and they just get smarter and smarter and make better, better decisions. And I get it. It's hard to do sometimes.

And look, that's science. Take a look at it. You literally just, you're telling me what science is. And people can't say, well, that science is an evolving process. It's a fucking theory. Changes. It's theoretical, dude. You have to test and test and test and test. And then you come up with a different answer and you're like, oh, that's science, yeah, because it's different now.

Come on, people. Come on, wake up. Let's jump over to Rick Doblin. Let's finish up with some positive science. Some positive science. Positive science. Now, Rick is a legend. He is a Legit He is a pioneer Dublin goblin. He is doing phenomenal work

I have friends that are therapists licensed behavior health therapists that want to go into the maps program So that they can facilitate Siliciba therapy MDMA possibly cataman I think that's primarily with an MD, though. I think medical doctors need to be at all of these, but then you get therapist or psychologist that can work through the experience just so much positive data. And the fact that he's been doing it so long with all the pushback and is now getting so much support, it just warms my heart. Like towards the end of the pod, they were talking about how really this is one of the

most bipartisan things that is going through the government right now. The FDA are getting on board with a lot of it. Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, he talks about Ted Newgent's son and Ted Newgent is very, was very anti-drug and very anti-psychedelic treatment and his son wants to be a psychedelic therapist. Yeah, that'll change a dad real quick. and his son wants to be a psychedelic therapist. Yeah, that'll change a dead real quick. And that's the thing,

is there's people in Congress, whether they have someone who's struggling with depression or suicidal or whatever or came back from the war, I think the key is, is the war thing, right? The PTSD and the results that they're seeing with MDMA in particular, about people coming home from wars and being suicidal,

what a shame that is, right? And they don't know what to do. And this, the data is insane. How, you know, one or two trips on MDMA, you know, with the setting, the setting, and the music, and the therapy that they're doing, the results are profound. I don't think you need to talk to a family member that's struggling really badly with PTSD

for very long to hear the pain that they're in. If they're capable of opening up to you at all, or you're just seeing their actions and behaviors because they're struggling so hard to or you're just seeing the actions and behaviors because they're struggling so hard to function, to say to yourself whatever it takes. Yeah, especially if you're the parent of that child. 100%. I mean, and that's where the bridge comes in. And he talks about this finding common ground, finding common ground, be the bridge, right? That's there.

The map's motto, be the bridge, moving forward, be the bridge. And it was funny how he talks about this civil disobedience when he was younger, you know, he never signed up for the draft, he kind of dodged it, he didn't put his papers in, he was scared, he talks to his parents about it, his dad was like, well, you're never going to be able to come a lawyer, he goes, okay, well, that's fine, I guess I'll become a psychedelic therapist. Yeah, I'll do something else then. All right. And now look, I mean, what, it's just such a cool story. Yeah. And, and man, it's hopeful, right? It's very hopeful right now. Like you said, it's one of the things that we can

seems to be something that Congress may be able to agree on. At least for veterans and people struggling who are coming back from war, if we can start there, right, let's start there, which seems to be the case with MDMA anyway. Well, but it's also a great example of, you know, to have at least one thing that potentially changes society and it's been something that's very illegal, you know, that both parties agree this is worth looking at. We should work together on this. There's almost no pushback. You can take that kind of cooperation to other elements of things that we're trying to pass that we fight on all the time and be like,

hey, how about we approach it in a similar way? How about we just look at data instead of just the politics? They're not gonna be able to do it with everything, but it's nice that we still have some things because it seems like they disagree on so much. But the irony of the thing that kind of in a way brings government together, brings the parties together is MDMA and Silasocybin. I mean, it's beautifully ironic because that's what those two drugs would do if you gave them

the both parts. Of course, dude. Everyone just needs to take an MDMA to get all of Congress. We will find common ground real fast. And then they just rub in each other's shoulders and somebody puts on some techno music and they just have it a good time. Just need some water, you know? Yeah, you've got to think hydrated. Give me some water. Joey talks about his five MEO experience, which he's done a few times here and that.

That's something that I once tried. Bear in mind to separate the two dimethyl trip to means NN dimethyl trip to mean is the fractal one where you see the entities and the creatures and maybe aliens and elves. The elves, yeah, the machine elves. Don't forget the elves. Terence McKenna would describe.

But then five MEO is the one that comes from the toad, right? And it's much, much different. No visuals. Very disassociative. You don't really know where you're at. And I've always felt like Joe's descriptions of this were very good. They're so much clearer than I can. It makes sense to me when he's saying it.

I'm like, that's exactly what it is. But I've always struggled to articulate it. And he's really good at this. And it's like, he said one thing where he's like, yeah, I thought I'd really fucked up because I thought that maybe I died. And that's kind of a thought that exists in there. Now there are some like euphoric, loving, happy bits, but it's a very heavy experience. And it's the kind of thing that you think about

for a long time afterwards. And it's one of the few experiences, at least in the psychedelic realm, that Joe is talked about, like not really wanting to go into again. And I was sure of that after I did my first one. I was like, wow, that was amazing. I don't know if I need to do that again.

It's a lot. But I began, he has not done that I began yet. No, he hasn't. I don't know a lot about I began. I thought it was brilliant to bring up Aubrey Marcus' dad again, who we talked about not that long ago being the creator of the flashlight, which I did not know. But now also, he was one of the first guys that pushed Ibegan therapy.

It's like what an incredible family. Like really? What was your take on when Dobblin chatted about the worst part of certain drugs? Is the relationship we have with them, right? Hmm. Whether they're not good or bad, but he mentioned Dr. Karl Hart, this drug policy reformer. Yeah, I think he's like a brown or a Princeton professor. Yeah, and it just caught my attention to talk about how certain drugs aren't good or bad,

right? It depends on your experience with them and your relationship we have with them, right? Like some people, you know, he talked about Jamie, he could take fucking, what did he say, like 2000 milligrams of, yeah, like 1300. And he's still talking with people at a party. People would not be able to function for days. I'd be high for a month. Right, yeah.

Yeah. I'd be scared to death for the first three weeks. I'm scared to take more than two milligrams of THC at a time. It just makes me weird. It gives me paranoia. Hate it. But I think that's what he was getting at

is that certain drugs. They're not good or bad. It depends on your relationship with them. It depends on getting the purest drugs you can, which is obviously a huge problem with all this fentanyl poisoning that's happening. And it's just this punish, punish, punish, punish. We're setting examples by punishing people.

We know that this is not working, guys. Then punishing people for doing drugs is the stupidest thing ever. It, unless you're gonna give them therapy for it, clearly these people have a problem, not working, guys. Punishing people for doing drugs is the stupidest thing ever. It, unless you're going to give them therapy for it, clearly these people have a problem, whether it's with heroin or whatever. It doesn't matter what drug. And again, it depends on the person.

And so making an example out of people by putting them in jail is so silly and it needs to stop. And, you know, you've got these bullshit stories on Oprah from 2001 Which you and I both know was the rave days and everyone was doing. Yeah Super fun, but I remember them talking about these holes in the brain, right? Yeah, but I was like, dude. I thought it was bullshit then they did a time It scared me to be some scared me. Yep. I remember like neurons in your brain

Break down and then they rebuild, but they look different. Yet you seem to function the same. We just don't know the long-term effects. Right. And it was even then. I'm like, how the, wait a second. How are we studying this? But how much research have we put into this? How crazy was that that they canceled the second show that Dobblin was supposed to be on? Mm-hmm. The benefits of MDMA, they canceled the show. Yeah, posties. And the woman that they had invited on to the show to do the brain scan who had taken a bunch of X to C

or MDMA at the time and was partying and raven, whatever, did a separate brain scan, right? That was what Dobblin, I think, had mentioned for her to do. Like, get a brain scan from some other doctor because they're gonna tweak the results. And she did, and then shows it to Oprah, whoever the producers or whatever, and they don't show the show. I mean, it's just typical. It's like what we're talking about with Shellenberger and other things. It's going to get skewed. It's Hollywood, dude. They're gonna

They're gonna put out what's else. It's yeah, it's so tough, but We're I think it seems like we're getting through that stage, right? We're getting through that stage of the bullshit of people know that it's bullshit Well, you know Oprah probably then would have got a huge amount of backlash from parents that are dealing with their kids that are like raving or whatever. And it's like, oh, now Oprah wants to be pro this drug that's like potentially ruining our kids' lives because everything's perception. Right. And you know, a lot of kids were doing it and going to raves and partying.

So it's, you know, parents to make an assumptions. Well, and they realized that the monkeys were getting methamphetamine. Oh, yeah, that whole study was a match. Right. And was that in this one or was it last week? How did it last week? It was a few weeks ago, but that was the original study with MDMA. Is that they had this negative results in the brain.

He talks about it on here, though, too, about how, yeah, it was in Johns Hopkins, the primates were dying from it from MDMA because the dose was so high. Or sorry, not MDMA, they thought it was MDMA, but it was actually methamphetamine. How do you make that mistake? But the doses are so different, right? Like it's a small amount of MDMA

that you need to get high, right? Yeah, well, you don't need a lot of math either, right? If it's pure math, that'll wreck you fast, but the but the The amount of meth that they were feeding these primates was way higher than it should have been and it was meth Not MDMA. See that that to me doesn't sound like a mistake. Right. That to me sounds like somebody poisoned a bunch of mushrooms monkeys and then went there you go. Not stayed. Or that. How about the the AA founder? They talked about him for a minute. I had heard this in the past. Oh, he did it. LSD. The founder of AA, that was his mystical experience that he had that made him realize, hey, I can,

get off of being a booze hound. I can stop drinking. And I think it was because of that LSD trip that he had. Yeah, well, they said that it helps with cluster headaches. What was it, a bromine LSD? Yeah, LSD. Different form of LSD. Yeah, non-psychedelic. You can give them much high dosages because you're not tripping.

Not fun either. Really good for getting rid of these cluster headaches that often, well, not often, but could sometimes lead to suicide because they're so brutal. Is a cluster headache worse than a migraine then? Yeah, I said it was way worse. You know, is it close to headache worse than a migraine then? Sounds like it. Yeah, I said it was way worse. Yeah, it's completely to build it to build today. I mean, migraine's alone. Oh, so bad.

Yeah, you can't do anything. It shuts you down. Anyway, talked about psychedelic science.org. Go there, use code Rogan20. 20% off. We'll put a link in the bio. And this is one of these psychedelic conferences, and let's blow it out of the water this year.

Get in there, folks. Go into it. It's amazing. I'd like to go. I think I might go. Let's go. Yeah, we should. We should go.

Let's learn some things. Let's do a part on it. I like it Oh at the last bit I wanted to talk about psilocybin and doses so He's talking about the effects of it, you know microdosing fun don't get me wrong probably good for like working Through some thoughts and definitely some anxiety if you do a gram of day. Yeah, you know, kind of takes the edge off. Joe did it when he was going through the cancel stuff. It helps with anxiety for sure.

If you want to see some real results, then they're talking about high doses. You got to kind of push through, get, you gave the example of the plane. You got to go real high, get past the turbulence, and then you kind of break through, and then you can do some real work on yourself. And that should be guided. You should have a professional that. This is not taking an eighth of the shrooms and going in partying with your boys. No, no, you want a professional that.

Going in with an intention, having the I-Mask, having the music, you know, writing things down. I'm ready, dude. I need it. It sounds good. 3.5 grams or more. Also, it looks like they raised enough money over a hundred million for the MDMA research. The FDA is looking at all the ways that they've done it. There's very little toxicity, you know, very few side effects, you know, you get a bit sweaty,

but of course you do, you have a great time. Like yeah, you're gonna get hot. What are you gonna burn going to the gym because you got sweaty, like, but they're doing the research well, the studies are good, and you know, the FDA, you gotta think with a lot of medication that gets passed when it comes to some drug that was banned and it has a stigma because of its a party drug,

for it to then become legal through the FDA, they're going to be pretty strict about it. So it has to have kind of overwhelmingly beneficial effects. And I love that it's able to create that and it's safe. And we're getting real close. That might be a fantastic way for people to work through. Real serious traumas that if you think about it, therapy and psychology is not that old of a science, right? We've been doing math for thousands of years. I mean, this how they build the pyramids.

But I mean, Freud was really the start of thinking about the internal brain. That's not true. Who did it before that? Plato, dude. Come on, I mean, philosophers, kinder. Come on. It's not, but it's not the same.

That wasn't really like a science. Okay. Yeah. I mean, they weren't agree to disagree, but you're right. It's not an old science. You're definitely right on that. Right. I mean, look, philosophers, you could say that. I mean, they, I mean, they knew, Plato knew that you had to get out in nature and you know, there's, maybe they didn't know what it was called later. It wasn't called psychology yet, but they were thinking about the mind and the heart and the way that reacts with, you know,

your personal opinion. I mean, I guess you're right. You could say that like every conversation between a couple of guys around a campfire, while they're making sense of their own existence. They're just trying to make sense therapy. But like putting it into something that we use in the West, that's like a paper that builds on another one where they're using the scientific process, for example.

I mean, it's fairly new. It's definitely new. It's definitely new. And there's only so many answers we have. There's only so far we've got there's certain people that have traumas that are kind of hard to identify to get them to speak up, to get that energy out of them. Well, that's a thing. There are some people that go to therapy their whole lives and they're stuck with certain things.

Well, MDMA gets rid of that, gets rid of that wall, that barrier. It might do. And that's what I'm excited about. It might be that thing that can get you just kind of over the edge. And it opens up your mind to talk about things that you're scared to talk about without it. I'm very excited for it though. I'm very excited. Well, there we go.

Thank you Todd for this week and thank everybody listening. We appreciate you guys. As always stay tuned. Next week, I guess it's next week we're ever regular part of the week after that though we will be in Austin. We are going to visit Rogan's new show.

The mother shit. We're gonna do a show from Austin, which is gonna be exciting, so we're gonna give you a real breakdown of that town. I can't wait to get that. I'm very excited. It's gonna be great. Love it.

Later, guys. Thanks for tuning in. you