Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 329 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Dr. Aseem Malhortra Et al.

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Thanks to this weeks sponsors:  Paint your life so text JRER to 87204 to get 20% off and free shipping for an amazing portrait! www.JREreview.com For all marketing questions and inquiries: [e-mail] This week we discuss Joe's podcast guests as always. Review Guest list:  Dr. Aseem Malhortra A portion of ALL our SPONSORSHIP proceeds goes to Justin Wren and his Fight for the Forgotten charity!! Go to Fight for the Forgotten to donate directly to this great cause.  This commitment is for now and forever. They will ALWAYS get money as long as we run ads so we appreciate your support too as you listeners are the reason we can do this. Thanks! Stay safe.. Follow me on Instagram at www.instagram.com/joeroganexperiencereview Please email us here with any suggestions, comments and questions for future shows.. [e-mail]

El oleaje en las playas de la costa daurada. El silencio en una iglesia románica. La tramuntana es ilvando en el cap da creus. El bullicio de las fiestas populares. El pálpito de ciudades con carácter. Cataluña, banda sonora del viaje de tu vida. Mira el vídeo en esta casa.cataluña.com Hey guys and welcome to a kind of an unusual episode of the Jerry review. We're doing a entire episode on Jerry 1979, Dr. Asim Maholtra. Now this was a guy that

was on recently, not a long ago, April 29th, and he kind of came out, you know, really speaking against a lot of the stuff that happened with COVID and the vaccine. And you know, early days, this was what have been pretty controversial. I think it's less so now and maybe to some it is, but we're trying to make sense of it. I've got a good friend of mine on the show, Trevor Wallon, what's up, Trevor? What's going on, my man? And I've known Trevor forever.

We've agreed on in so many ways, a lot of things in our lives. And we both cared a great deal about what happened in the process of the COVID pandemic. Yet we also disagreed on a lot of things and kind of went in different directions. And it was puzzling probably to both of us when you say, yeah, for sure. And... And also, you know, I think if you extrapolate that out into society as a whole, it was a lot of what was happening out there. So, a lot of confusion. And we're just going to go over this podcast, the ASEEM1, pick out some points, see what we think and try and make a little bit of sense of it. Alright, let's get going.

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast, and pass them on to you, perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan experience review. What a bizarre thing we've created. Now with your hosts, Adam Thorn.

Might either be the worst but casual with a best one. Two, one, go. Enjoy the show. All right. So, Dr. Seem. So this guy's a, he's a British cardiologist. He does keyhole heart surgery. And, um, and yeah, I think, I think Trevor, let's go back to really what, how we started most of this discussion as we were finishing up a hunting trip. It was fairly early on in the pandemic. And we listened to Dr. Ronda Patrick.

And we kind of discussed through that podcast. Now not to bring up any key points, but do you remember much about that discussion? You know, I don't remember. I don't remember actually. I was trying to piece it together, but I've slept poorly since then, I think. Yeah, well, really a lot of it was that, you know, as we know, she's very good at compiling data, right?

And then finding the data that most people agree on in the scientific community. And since this was kind of early on in the pandemic, she was doing that. She was doing what she does well. And I had some concerns about it, like how quickly maybe vaccines were getting made or just the overwhelming push towards the direction of there was just one fix for this. You remember what you did that was? I think it was 21. It was 21.

Yeah, I think so. I think it must have been 12 or 21. You think it was that late? It had to have been right, because we were so. Yeah, I think it must have been fall at 21 You think it was that late it had to have been right because we were hunting Yeah, because we're out hunting so that would have been the fall. Yeah, so it'd have been going a while You know you think that and and probably for her and most people they they were like, hey, we've got we've got enough dates I know I mean it took him a while to make the vaccine anyway, right? Yeah, probably like that that December of 21, I think is when things started to roll out.

Right. Yeah. Somewhere in there. I mean, I said it earlier today and it's no knock on her, but, you know, if- Or 20 December 20. If someone is very good at gathering data and it's peer reviewed so she's like, right, this is kind of outsourced to being correct, which is how all of us, or a lot of us think anyway, I mean, that's how science has made. It's probably difficult to disseminate incorrect

and kind of errors in data, right? Or at least major biases. Maybe she hadn't dealt with that before. I mean, maybe a lot of people haven't. I mean, there's always been biases in data and peer-reviewed papers. But it just overwhelmingly to me, it was like a suspicion that there was a lot of those going on.

It was like a suspicion that there was a lot of those going on. Yeah, I don't know. I think, I mean, you were skeptical pretty early in the process, compared to me for sure. At least that's what I remember thinking. But, you know, like early on, you know, as I've like read into things a little bit, it seems like, you know, that's, that was the consensus. You know, and that's what you do as a medical doctor or a scientist, as you go.

With what information is more like widely reproduced, you know, so you can come up with some sort of solid narrative of what's happening. Yeah, it makes sense. You know, yeah, of course. I mean, that early, that early COVID was different than the, you know, the later COVID. And so maybe we, maybe it was different in the first year or so, and it changed. I don't know. I think I'll add.

Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. I mean, people were certainly very concerned and very afraid early on. You know, what I just wasn't seeing is that people just drop in like flies like they were saying. It took a long time before many people I know were even really having any impact from this. people I know are even really having any impact from this. And by then I was heavily closed down. Everybody I knew wasn't working.

And just those kind of restrictions, it was like that was the real pain on people's lives. And then extrapolating that out today, I mean, it's pretty clear that a lot of our economy being a disaster, like it is, and supply chains just being destroyed all came from shutting things down. So I think it's really important to get an idea of like how necessary was that. And it was there a way to kind of work around it. Right? It just seems so easy to just say, well, we didn't know and we all had to be safe and that

was just the end of it. And okay. But like, how many times are we going to say that again? Like I think we want to really say what? Once every 100 years, hopefully, no more. Yeah. I mean, but that is kind of a way, right? It's like, well, we haven't had to do this before. So we won't ever have to do this again.

And I was very suspicious of that always too. That one seems way too simplistic because a lot of, you know, government officials definitely, I mean, Gavin Newsom, especially, like they enjoyed that power. They took full control, of course. Yeah, they took full control of that power. They were like, they were like dictators in the own state. Anything than they said went. Can you, can you met, yeah, probably, maybe there's that like, that group of, there's definitely obviously like that group of politicians, or maybe not even politicians, but people that just really enjoy that power, the having control over everybody.

I, that's something that, you know, you're, you're ruined a lot of people's lives at the same time. You know, I mean, you're you're you're ruin a lot of people's lives at the same time. You know, I mean, you're not going to make everybody. It's not it's not, you know, all good or all bad, but it's, it's, I don't know, it doesn't, it didn't work out well for a lot of people. Yeah, sure. And maybe knew some of those guys that that just likes the power of it. He does seem a little greasy. Yeah, it's that hair.

But it, but more to me was like, I was worried that there wasn't going to be like really clear reflection on this. It was like, oh, we just did this and we moved by it. And when something similar happens, I mean, there's like parallels that don't even need to relate to a pandemic or a vaccine, right? It could just be some other big thing that's very dangerous and we need to kind of take control again. And you know, and sure, maybe it doesn't happen. Maybe it is every 100 years, but I would like to think there are people out there that are very concerned that it's not just that, and they're not just going to sit there and trust, you know, the powers, the

B to make that decision. Yeah, I agree with you. That's a lot of where my early concerns really kicked off. And also the narratives. I mean, it was fairly clear early on that who it was affecting. This podcast is brought to you by Paint Your Life. I wanted to get a painted portrait done for my father for father's day. Paint Your Life transforms your photos into a one of a kind beautiful hand-painted portraits

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That's JRER287204, that's JRER287204, text JRER287204, paint your life, celebrate the moments that matter the most. Message and data rates may apply seat terms for details. Again, text JRER2872040 to get 20% off. Right. All people were going to be their old. You can't do anything about that. They're going to be old. Right. Then there was a lot of the autoimmune stuff and the range of that is huge. I mean, technically having psoriasis is an autoimmune disease, but it's not going to make you die of COVID, right? So how to even define where you are on that spectrum and then obesity, which is clearly the biggest factor here, and there was just no energy in that direction, which was very

strangely suspicious. And what do you mean there's no energy in that direction? Well, to fix it, nobody was saying, lose weight. Like his ways to do it. This is what you could do. No, yeah, you're right. It was all just, just get vaccinated and don't worry. And you can mitigate those other issues,

like being older, being overweight, yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. And then, like, clearly that one, like, if there was like energy towards like getting healthier or losing weight, which would be overwhelmingly beneficial to the people that were high risk, we could also guarantee zero side effects. And less somebody became, you know, anorexic because of it, but that seems unlikely.

So we lean towards the vaccine approach, right? And ultimately, it's science. I was never against vaccines before. I never really took the flu vaccine because I didn't, I just don't really get hit with. No, but like growing up in England, we get tons of vaccines. I think we get more than you guys get here. They love jabbing us out. And so many of them are super valuable. I mean, that was almost kind of like one area of science. I didn't even have a question. I just felt like vaccines were like the part of science

that was the best. You know, I knew like, opioids and other medications were really bad for you and caused a lot of problems. But when it came to vaccines, I was like, yeah, well, it's better than dying of, you know, polio or measles or typhoid. Well, that's one thing that I think they said later

in the episode, which was kind of striking to me. And I forget, I think they said later in the episode, which was kind of striking to me and I forget. I think it was late in the episode, but it was like from the late, like the mid-1800s until like, I know, within the last 10 years, there'd been this huge average increase in life expectancy, which back then it was like 40 years in the mid 1800s. And that just medicine itself accounted for only 3 to 5% or something like that. Do you remember that part of the conversation? Yeah, I do. But there's always like public interventions, I think it was the point of what really made the biggest difference. We have this faith in medicine, but really it hasn't improved our lives

a whole lot. I think a lot of those stats are like, you know, less babies dying as well. And yeah, that kind of brings up average life expectancy is a big deal, you know, quite a lot. But you know, people have been, we have this idea that, you know, and people in the past only lived to like 45 or whatever. I mean, there's pretty decent accounts that there were Romans that lived at Greeks even, that lived way later in their life. I mean, we've been able to do this for a while. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've got some clips here, and I think I think that might kind of clear, or you just kind of direct the conversation a little bit, but yeah, I want to go through a few of these with the Scussum and just kind of see what we're thinking.

There's something called a pre-randomization running period. So before the trial actually starts, people are enrolled, and then if you get side effects, you are taken out of the trial before it starts. So what happens is, yeah, so what happens is the end result of those trials is therefore biased towards people who didn't get side effects. And then even then there's a big under reporting issue now. And they have no responsibility to report the people that were removed that also got side effects? Well, so what they do is very interesting.

They get around it slightly sneaky. In one of these trials called the Hot Protection Study, 36,000 people were removed from the trial before it began, one of the largest trial trials. And what they did was they mentioned this, but they said they used the word non-compliant, suggesting that the patients didn't take the pills. Oh, what? Right, so let me just say why it felt like

that should be keyed up is because I think, a lot of people have an inflated idea of how these things are figured out. It's like, oh, doctors, and I hear this so much, right? And especially from people that went the direction of like, I need every next job and whatever my doctor says, and I believe everything my doctor says Don't get me wrong. I think it is good to check him with your doctor Especially when squirrely stuff's happening with your body. I mean you got to go to where

Somebody can help you right you can't just eat garlic and expect to fix your life But there's almost like this blind kind of outsourcing of knowledge to them. Number one, doctors don't make these studies. They're not even real scientists. That's kind of not unfair to say. It's more like a social science. They're very good at memorizing a lot of things. And then over time, they get a lot of experience

so I'm not really taking anything away from it but it's not like a chemist, a biologist, like you're a biologist, you know this. So yeah, this is how clinical trials are kind of put together and I'm not inclined to believe that he made this up. Right, I've heard some of things what should I take on? I feel like they're I feel like they're you're kind of and we you and I've gotten into this over the years you know since since that that first conversation but um I think that you're kind of underselling um you know the the the role that that's specialist play in our life, right? So these people, there's a lot of people that devote their whole life to understanding disease or whatever the hell it is, climate, climate science or whatever.

And so with what you said there, I think it kind of underplays their value. You know what I mean? And but to the point that he's making in that clip, that was really shocking to me. Like I wish he would like point at something that defined non-compliance. Because I felt like he was just kind of like, like, wean in it. Well, that means that they, you know we're unwilling to take the medicine or they stop taking the medicine and when I

looked up like trying to find well how do they filter out you know people for these studies obviously you're not gonna find anything to figure out how pharmacy pharmacological companies weed out people but I would have liked a little bit more explanation there. Yeah, and I guess Maya pointed this. It's pretty critical, right? That's a pretty critical point. Yeah, because he's saying these studies that we're using to pass these drugs through trials from the get go is undermined,

which I actually, I kind of believe, and I'm sure there's a big incentive to do that. And my question to you is, is this the best we can, like obviously nothing is the best we can do, like nobody's perfect, these things aren't perfect? But is this even acceptable, really? No, it's not. things aren't perfect. But is this even acceptable really? No, it's not. It shouldn't be 100% no, no.

And then if you add in, we don't really know, I get it. But if, but also, let's say this is how it's always been. And now I'm like, oh, I see why actually costs $100 million to make any medication and a long, long time because most of the trials that they use are like sloppy as fuck. Like, don't get me wrong, I couldn't do better. I'm not a, I couldn't do better.

But like hearing that, it sounds, it sounds like there's some ugly gray area, right? So I'm glad that it takes a hundred million dollars to make a medication. it sounds like there's some ugly gray area, right? So I'm glad that it takes $100 million to make a medication. And I'm also glad that it takes a long time. We did not get a long time with this one. I agree it was rushed, but like you said that it feel like it's always been this way. Later on also in the episode,

they whenever he's highlighting the documentary that Dr. Mahaltrow's making is, they talk about that inflection point in time when it changed. And it was back in the 80s under Reagan when they deregulated the system. And that was the switch. And I'm curious to see that video

that documentary that puts together, but it hasn't always been that way. But we kind of made it so that those companies can make more money off of it. Right, right. I mean, Reagan also did the thing where he closed down a lot of the Kind of mental institutions which just created a havoc with the homeless situation in the eighties, too

so it kind of plays into that and you know not to like pick a time or a person and bag on them It's like I don't really know a lot about him, but reperson and bag on them. It's like, I don't really know a lot about him. But it was a, the 80s was a money making time, bro. There was a lot of cocaine flowing around. And maybe it was just like, we got to get the stock market pumping at all costs. Who knows? Yeah, I mean, it's coming up in the 70s, which is like a, you know, a real low point in the US economy, probably the world economy. So you're probably right. Well, we invented the nuclear bomb in 1945, right?

You can't do that without good science. A lot of good science. So we definitely had good science before we had these sloppy types of clinical trials. And it's not hard for me to believe that it was once better. It's almost like now they're just looking at it through a lens of all right, let's just not get sued,

make a lot of money and make it pretty good. It is best we can. And I don't believe anyone in the ferries is there either, trying to make it not good, but you just can't rush that shit. They're there to make profits. Like they, you know, they said they hit on a lot, especially in the first front, like the front end of the episode, you know, those, the folks that are in this company, these

companies are there to make profits for the, for the shareholders. Dude, the fact that they made $100 billion and they're not required to release the data on these trials, right? Or a lot of the data that could get them in trouble for like 80 years, which is wacky. Basically, everyone is dead. By the time this company will be held responsible. Right. Oh, and also they're completely free of getting sued as well. Yeah. That was like put in.

Yeah, they're right. Like those those are massive red flags, dude. Right. I agree. If they were really like, hey, we're doing, dude. Right? I agree. If they were really like, hey, we're doing our best, right? We're a full profit company, but we only care about the people. So this isn't going to be a big money maker, where we're just all in on this because everyone's suffering. And we want to be held responsible, but we're doing our best. That's a fucking company I can trust. And I don't see why they couldn't have done that.

I really don't. If they really believed in what they were doing, why couldn't they have done something very close to that? I think because there was a lot of pressure, man, for the government to find a solution. And I think back in 2020, it was President Trump that imposed the Defense Production Act, right? Because one, there was hospitals were overwhelmed with people. You know, I remember, so I worked for an agency, we were building hospitals around the country because the written, because all the other existing hospitals couldn't keep up with the amount of people as severe COVID. And then, so they instituted the Defense Production Act back in 2020,

just to make ventilators. I mean, later figured out there was wrong but I don't know man. No no it's good. It would continue. Continue. That's good. I mean the ventilator thing was a total disaster. Or the disaster. Yeah. They didn't know they were trying. So there's just there's a lot of pressure on people to find a fucking solution because if you're if your medical system locks up because you have gunshot wounds and heart attacks and all this other kids not getting treated because all your beds are filled with people that can't breathe. You know, that has that has wide work ranging impacts on on cities, you know, so I get it. I'm a pressure to figure it out.

And everybody was looking at the US to find a solution. Yeah. Everybody's looking Trump, you know, Mike and Sun with that pressure is like that. It is almost the catalyst for like this. Everyone has to be on board, because we don't have time for anything else. And then all we really like evaluating the data

as it gets created at that point. No. That's what we're doing. You can evaluate it back somewhere. Yeah, I mean, you had to get it out there and then hopefully, you know, didn't do a whole lot of harm and hopefully it slowed the disease so that you could could respond to it

in a more comprehensive way. You know, that was that was what I remember the conversation being. Let's blow this thing down, right? Yeah, early on. Well, I remember I remember people like be like getting shot and like getting shot and going into the hospital and then being considered a COVID death. And then I also remember hearing about hospitals getting paid money, like more money, to have a COVID death over other types of deaths, which is a dangerous incentive. Sure. Okay. Did you? I looked, I tried to find stuff about that. I don't know if you did, but I couldn't find anything. I remember like people talking about that, but I think that was like a Fox, a Fox news narrative. And maybe there's truth to it, but I'm just saying I couldn't find

anything that really kind of he's that together because, I mean, if that's the case, then, yeah, you're gonna inflate numbers for sure. Right, which only leads to more hysteria around the problem, right? Instead of just being like, okay, what is actually happening here? Verano, verano, reciclarse en tu mano Esa lata de aceitunas que te tomas a la una

La crema que se termina cuando estás en la piscina El embase de ese polo que no se recicla Solo hay una lata de caballa que te coves en la playa La usaré las patatas y del refresco la lata Un embase de paella y del agua La botella como veces muy sencillo Los embases del verano Siempre van a la amarillo La cune más se despaya y de la guana La botella Como veces muy sencillo Los elbases del verano

Siempre van a la amarillo Ecovenes Pero como es posible que sean las tres de la tarde Que lleves que hace una hora de atascot Y que de todo el camino por delante Y tu estas ahí dan tranquila a tus cosas Como si te desees todo igual ¿Cómo es posible?

Vamos, que tu vas trabajando, ¿no estás lleno? ¿A dónde vas tú tan contenta? ¿Eh? ¿A dónde? Llega el mejor momento del año. Llegan tus vacaciones. Este uno de Julio sortió extraordinario de vacaciones de Lotería Nacional con 20 millones aún decimos. Lo terías de recuerda que juegas con responsabilidad y solo si eres mayor de edad. All right, I want to jump over to another clip, though.

And let's, uh... Let's, let's piece this one. Over-medicated population now is a big, it's a public health crisis, even pre-pandemic. One estimate from Peter Gosa, who is a co-founder of the Ray Pristigious Independent Cochrane Collaboration, in the BMJ suggests that the third most common cause of death now globally after heart disease and can cancer is prescribed medications. What your doctor prescribes for you, mainly because of avoidable side effects, and these are avoidable because the decision making and the prescription often doesn't involve

informed consent, and when you tell people the full benefit of some harms, in absolute terms of drugs, mostly they're more conservative, they're less likely to take the pills. But also the information that doctors are using to make clinical decisions are based upon these industry sponsored trials where they keep their data commercially confidential, which ultimately means that the safety

and the benefits are grossly exaggerated. means that the safety and the benefits are grossly exaggerated. Right. And I, I don't think that that clip would be one that many people would have disagreed with before COVID. Pharmaceutical companies were not really seen as many people's friends. I think if I had even talked to you and been like, what do you trust these guys? And you'd be like, no, they mostly just kill everybody or give us opioids. But there definitely has been a huge shift, right? But yeah, yeah, for certain, well, I don't know, I don't know if that's true. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I can't imagine that any of us will like pro then. I don't think any of us are now. I think that that during the pandemic, you know, there was it wasn't just we weren't just listen to the to the drug companies, right? Like there

is Johns Hopkins University that was releasing information that supported early vaccination. You know, there's all these kind of well-known institutions that were trying to study it in real time, right? You kind of build into the plane as you fly it. And so obviously, I'm coming down on given on like early vaccination. I think it was a good idea. But I think we weren't like saying, well, like in Johnson and Johnson, those are my guys. You know, I'm not, I don't, I'm in their corner. I don't think that's the case. I think all of us, I don't know if all of us, maybe not, but, you know, there's been enough instances over time.

No, I get it. You brought up an important point there and and you're outsourcing the thinking to these doctors and hospitals Yeah, universities that were doing studies that were getting a lot of their information from These pharmaceutical companies like the only way they knew anything about the vaccines were from studies done by Pfizer-Moderna, Johnson and Johnson. Right.

But there was done in a way that from the previous clip is like they can just, they can kind of fudge these sorts of numbers. Yeah. Well, there were efficacy studies, right? So there are those early studies that were done by the drug companies, and that's the only data set we had. I think there was that, yeah.

It wasn't like later, later in time, you get those effectiveness studies where you get to see how drugs are playing out in the public, like out in the wild, right? You could just see how all those change. I think early on, you just had a small data set. And yeah, we probably get penned a lot on the drug companies for data.

Yeah, that might be true. Which is probably how it's always been, you know? And I don't know if the like the the same potential biases to how much money they could be making with that, but it was it was almost like these three companies were given just the like they were the only ones allowed to drive on the freeway. And it was like they were you go and you won't get sued and we won't release data, you're going to all make a ton of money. And please tell us what to do. And and then there were a lot of smart people that like John Hopkins that I trust a lot. They come

out with great medical findings all the time. And they're just like waiting, like hands out, like hungry kids asking for more, like give us the information. And maybe that's not what I don't know. Yeah, it just seems like. Well, if you've used that room, do what? What else, what other data would you be able to use that early?

You know, they probably heavily depended on it to make decisions or to, you know, they probably had to use the drug company data to provide their analysis of what's going on. Maybe. Yeah, actually, I don't know. Well, but I mean, let's just say that you were kind of sat in that seat, right? And you had to make some decision on this, right? So you're like, all right, we're either all in with this one thing that was quickly made. And this the only place we're getting the data from and we know that they've been a part of some of the biggest lawsuits in history because of people they've killed and other drugs they've made. Maybe there's another dialogue here. Like what else is happening?

Like they knew early on that vitamin D was very low and a lot of people that were going to the hospital and were very sick. It's a very important hormone that aids in your immune system. It's also very, very cheap. And we could have got that to everybody real fast. Like no doubt, no question. 100% and very little talk about this.

I just don't wanna let them off the hook. Like this is kind of how my mind worked with it. It's, there's a lot of that kind of talking that was frustrating to me as I tried to make sense of it, is like, oh, that was the best they could do. And it was just at the beginning and everyone was just doing their best and they were all trying to figure it out.

And I'm like, well, if that's the best, then I don't trust a lot of these people. And I really don't feel comfortable moving away from this situation. Like probably a lot of people in the US and the world do to where we don't trust these institutions to help us be safe. It's like, oh, we do have to figure it out ourselves, because they still don't have a packet.

I got COVID, how long ago, right before we went to Austin, it was the first time I got it and tested positive for it. Now, I got one of the later variants, I don't know what they're on now, like Gamma Delta, no, like Zeta. It's got to be one of the last ones. So, you know, it's not affecting people that bad, but I'm 41 and I traveled. All the shit.

Yeah, all the shit. I mean, it, it, from everything I've heard about COVID, it should have affected me a lot worse, but. If you're in shape, you exercise, you take your health seriously. Yeah, that you didn't know any pre-existing conditions that we know of. Yeah, that was helpful.

And hopefully, you know, that's what disease does, right? That's what viruses do is they lessen with the fallity over time, right? In a lot of cases. Right, and then they generally get more transmittable, but less dangerous. Right. And it's done.

Yeah. At least that's how I understand it. Yeah. So, but, you know, quickly I made it through it, and it was fine. It was fairly unusual. You were a teacher. Well, but it was fairly unusual. It, you know, I don't want to lessen like how awful it was fine. It was fairly unusual. You were a teacher. Well, but it was fairly unusual.

It, you know, I don't want to lessen like how awful it was for people because it did feel more unusual than anything that I had got previously, for sure. I, it did not affect me, well, dude. I was like, you know, we got it in my household and my wife and kids, test a positive for it. And, you know, I had gotten the vaccine and it my wife and kids tested positive for it. And you know, I had gotten the vaccine and it'd been probably six months since I had the vaccine and more recent

for my for my crew, but I was late low for like three or four days with, you know, just really heavy, like like real heavy flu symptoms. Not like, you know, I never noticed real severe breathing issues or tightness of my chest, but it was like a really bad flu for me. But the rest of my crew, it was, you know, it was milder for sure. What was the protocol when you got it? Did you go to the doctor? Well, you just tested in late low. I tested in late low. Yeah, well, I went to the doctor. And I said, I think I have it. All my mask and they did it. And then they were like, all right, we get the test back pretty soon. And I was like, why are you already tested positive at home?

And they were like, well, we have a better test. I was like, okay, cool. And then I said, all right, what do I take away with me? And they were like, wait, what? And I go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Yeah, something. Lollipop. Didn't even get a Lollip. Like a forward sticker. You want to get door sticker. No, I felt like they would give you a thing of vitamin D supplementation, you know, which is nothing. That's like five bucks a year supply. Provide for near that, dude. Dude, it's a fucking hospital.

And this is like the worst thing that closed the world down. They didn't have anything to give me. Like, does that not strike you at all as unusual? They didn't say maybe, you know, like eventually, it was weight. I mean, I'm not like an obese person, but it just no advice. Nothing. They said nothing. The cure was go home and go to bed.

Go. Yep. Yeah, I agree. And this is three years later. Giving you something. Yeah. You could give me something. And that's the vitamin D.

That have been either I remember. Yeah, right. So some some horse they won't, but You know, it that is just still odd to me, right? I mean, and then they were like, yeah, you could get like the next booster if you like And I'm like, dude, how if they even fucking really tested this one which one of these are we on? Like I wouldn't give this to my cat at this point. You know, the stuff that I thought was like really good in the beginning of the episode was just

you know, they they talk about the cholesterol and statin, the history of those drugs and the the damage that was done by it and the lawsuits that followed and I thought, man, the sections were there talking about just the, is how kind of corrupt that whole industry can be, right? Not, maybe it's not all of it, but just that it's kind of set up to really, like where a lot of research is dependent on funding that comes from those drug companies or through insurance, you know, and it was really kind of unsettling to hear, you know, all those, I think they said something like concealed, the concealed conflicts of interest

is what he used a lot, right? Yeah. That was like the, that was the biggest takeover for me was just how lacking in transparency the industry is and how are things funding funded and the research. All that was just crazy. I think this is why this guy has credibility, though. I mean, he still gets to be on the BBC and England is very pro this whole thing. Like, I've been there twice during this and literally, there's a few people that I know that are more skeptical, but most of everyone is kind of just fully on board and they're like adamantly so aggressively, so especially all the people. So the fact that he can still kind

of get on TV, I think that it was helpful that before he spoke out about this, he really brought good information forward on the statin thing. And the right people looked into it and good data came out of it that clearly had been skewed. I mean, a trillion dollar business, he said globally. That's so much money, Trevor. Oh, it's insane. It's so much money. One of that, I wrote it down. What did they say? It said if, uh, oh, where did it go like you know the greater the The greater like the more money that could be made it made in that industry the less likely that it's gonna Oh here it is the greater the financial interest in a given field that less likely the resources findings are to be true Yeah

There's some doc I John I andonitis or something like that right? I do remember that you know and that's important that's important to always Look at and and also if you bring that forward to you know what he's mainly talking about here and the COVID thing that's an insane amount of money so, just based on that kind of idea, you have to be skeptical. Or you should be. I didn't see enough people that I really believed were. I just couldn't believe how many people were not skeptical of this. And I didn't even have that bit of fact, but I kind of assumed, right? It was just a bit of an assumption. I think there's a bit of a question here

with also agreeable people and not really agreeable people. And what I mean is, is you're more agreeable than me. This is why you've always been more likable. And I think, yeah, okay, but I think it plays in. You know, it's not like I pick fights on purpose, but if I see five things going okay, and then one area that is like not cool, you know, maybe in my workplace, there's like

one guy who's a bit of a tyrant. I do generally get into it with that person because I don't, I don't like that. I don't just ignore it and say, well, it's, it's okay over here. So I just stick to this bit of the job. And I do have a tendency to like lean towards that. And maybe that's a part of this as well. Yeah. Yeah. maybe that's a part of this as well. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you were also burned by this really, really on. You know what I mean?

You had more reason, and we don't have to go into it, but, you know, from, from right from the Gico, when this pandemic kicked off in Hic, California, you know, you got the run into the deal. And, and that's got a, you know, that's your foundation for this whole thing. And it's hard to overcome that. But you do have that inclination to also just kind of head, but whatever, whatever you think is, you know, something that just kind of rubs you wrong. Yeah. Which you know it's's got its pull. I guess, I guess you got to have those people.

Let's play another clip, though. And. Yeah, we're quick. I got to talk to them about something. Oh, yeah, doing it. So since you're from England. Go. So he talked about like getting on the media a lot, right?

He kept referencing this GB news. And I didn't, well, I didn't know anything about it. It's like as a network. Because he did mention BBC like once, or especially on the early stuff about the cholesterol and statins. But GB news is just like, when I looked it up on like media bias fact check,

it sounded kind of like a new upstart during the pandemic kind of like you know one American news or something like that. All right. Oh like uh what's what's the other one the wire? Oh I don't know. Oh, away in is what it made me think of. Oh okay. Well, but there's just like other like more right wing kind of news and and talked I mean look no doubt though. He was probably pushed out right to something. Yeah, that's what I wondered. Yeah. Like is this a credible like somebody like an agency or a network that you knew of or is

it like I don't know enough about it. We had some pressure to like not bring him on the year anymore because because he was pushing back on the common narrative or. Yeah, but also let's look at Dr. Robert Malone early on. And people wanted to slam him so bad they try to cancel Rogan over it. It's still to this had the majority of the patents for the mRNA technology that they used. He had an incredible career where he's worked with everybody in the game and is a massive

consultant across the board. And this is literally the first thing he spoke out about and he's right at the end of his career. He wasn't writing a book and it really has like banned him from everything. I just can't believe that somebody would speak out and be so wrong when so many people thought before that he was so correct and people thought before that he was so correct and valuable for all the information that they needed. That just doesn't line up. It's like, okay, so all of a sudden he loses his mind, I don't know where, comes forward and speaks against this thing, and then just gets slammed and crushed for it. Yet is the guy that made the thing that we're using? Yeah, I actually don't know much about the guy so I don't want to speak to him. But I agree if you know if you're if you're respected in the field and then you go against the green one time and they take Ganya or something questionable. Yeah you take a big impact. I want to play the

whistleblower clip real quick though. Cool. A whistleblower from a prestigious university in the UK contacted me cardiologist and he said to me it was very upset. He said, it seems something I've got to tell you. I don't know what to do, but I need to tell you this. So what is it? He says, now, this research group have accidentally found with the use of coronary imaging techniques. So this is specialized high-tech scans of the arteries of the heart. That in the vaccinated, there was increased inflammation of the arteries of the heart, and it wasn't

there any unvaccinated, which again would increase heart attack risk. But they had a close meeting and said, we're not going to publish these findings or talk about it further, because it may affect our funding from the drug industry. Yeah, so, and this is kind of something that he pointed out early on in, in, you know, his work, right? What's difficult with this one is this goes against a lot of, of the kind of peer reviewed stuff that you've sent me over the years or other people have referenced, you know,

over the past three years, like, look,, look, even if the vaccines aren't great, like, it's four to six times less dangerous than actually getting the COVID, right? And that just happens over and over and over again. And I'm sure people aren't just completely making this up. I never really believe that, right? You know, people are looking into things and doing science and days on it, yet you know, you hear something like this, and I'm also tired of just being like, oh, this is just one source and that's it. All right, well, okay, but we all know the pressure that everybody felt. I mean, especially someone, if Dr. Malone can't come out and speak against it

and he has all the patents, like all of them for this, made it, knows how it works and can't say a bad thing about it and gets destroyed. What do you think the pressure would be like on other people gathering really good information? Maybe they work at universities, maybe they work at John Hopkins and they're just like, shit, I don't think we can do the science like we used to do. So let's just ignore this. Right. And that's one example. How many more could there be? And should we just pretend that there weren't a lot more? And ultimately these are, you know, these are your kids, dude.

Right? You have kids, small kids, and you got them vaccinated, right? Yeah. Okay. And what happens if like a bunch of those studies come out and it's like, yeah, it's super bad. And also young people would like at zero risk. Right. Yeah, and then later in life,

like one of them has like a hot issue or something. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying this to freak you out, but like I would want to know all the information. Like I don't have kids, but Jesus, man, that freaks me out. Well, yeah, but you're, you're dealing with a lot of what ifs, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, wait, all of us, every single one of us would have wanted more time to get this thing figured out and make sure that these drugs were safe. 100%. I don't think anybody disagree with that. You know,

you just, like I said, there's a lot of pressure and the tight timeline and it was falling apart and we didn't know what the hell was going on. So you make, you make acceptance for its audience. It's trying to get something out. But, you know, like, I wasn't worried about me or my kids really, like even early on, well, early, early on, you know, I was probably like everybody else. And you're like, what can I touch the gas pump? Am I going to get this some crazy disease or? Oh, yeah, I was that. But the first couple of weeks, I was, I was wiping down Amazon packages. I wasn't not taking it seriously. I remember we was zoomed

calling and I was like, dude, this could wipe out the entire planet. Yeah, we were, we were everybody was scared. But like, you know, as things kind of progressed and I think it just touches a little bit on what you said, like, I remember at one point, you know, like watching the news and hospitals are fucking, are like overburdened and there's there's the not enough beds and then like looking around and like, oh I don't know anybody that's got this and then I and once they started knowing people you know I I knew a guy they got it pretty like in back in March or 2020 and he was sick as a ship but I didn't know anybody that had died on it for died from it for like the first year and a half, maybe almost two years, it seemed like. And so I wasn't really worried

about like me and my kids at that point, I was like, shit, if my folks get this, my parents, you know, because, you know, they're in their middle of the late 60s. I don't know what it's going to do. You know, that was my biggest concern for getting me and my kids vaccinated just because we wanted to be around my family. But it doesn't stop transmission. They've known this for a long time. So how would that help?

They never said it. They never said it was going, well, there was kind of like this narrative like it could, but it was like going and looking back and like at the early, like the clearance or whatever for the drug companies to start testing, it was never one of the requirements of the drug. Oh, but that definitely was not the narrative.

And you can't blame the news for that. That's what they were told. They were told that it did. You get this, you will not spread it. That is 100% what was being said across the board. Yeah, dude, in an early 20, if you go back and look, I remember stuff like, I remember the conversation being that, right? I don't remember where the originator from, but if you go back and you look at like news reports and studies from late 20, mid-2021,

they say that they don't nor are they intended to stop transmission or infection rates. But I was able to find clips from like, I think I found one from National Geographic that I sent you where they said, the ship blocks transmission. But nobody else like the research companies and like the drug companies weren't saying that at the time. So I'm curious, I think that was, I wondered if that was like part of like the, hey everybody.

Well, CNN, CNN was definitely saying that. 100% they were saying that. What's the main check on CNN? What's her name? So like, I sent you one article that I was able to find from CNN because I did some digging on that because I knew you would say something. And that one article on the CNN, on CNN said, fully vaccinate people who get COVID-19 break for infection can transmit the virus. And this is from like early 21. But I agree. That was the narrative.

I agree. That's what people were saying. Like, if you get it, that's what people were saying. I don't remember like anything authoritative, you know what I mean? That was, that article was August 21. So it was a little bit later than I remember. But still,, so it was a little later than I remember. But still, I think it was a common narrative. I agree with you.

Yeah. And I'm like, I can't be bothered to look at the clip because then it's just like, all right, that's just a clip. But, but yeah, I know. Dude, for sure, for sure, some of those news people said that. And everybody just goes back to it. Okay, so we knew this then if you're worried about your parents and you're not worried about your kids then what is the vaccine doing for them? Yeah, because like you said, like the narrative was is that it was slow and all that stuff down. You know, especially like going into 2020,

in the end of 2020, and at the beginning of 2021, we probably got vaccinations probably by the summer or the fall. That was the idea, right, is that you would slow it down or not pass it on to somebody. For sure, that was the idea. Okay. Okay, so you got the vaccines for yourself and the kids under the pretext of the idea that it was the idea. Okay. Okay. So you got the vaccines for yourself and the kids under the pretext of the idea that it would stop transmission, which they were floating around, right?

So I don't blame you for doing it because they were saying that. It was definitely like floating around there. I know. I was trying to find it though. It's like, man, I, like, that was, that was the line of thinking. But whenever I tried to go find information about like, well, what were we saying back then?

I had a hard time finding a lot of stuff that, or anything that said this stops transmission and I found a lot of information to the contrary. So that was kind of surprising to me whenever I started reading and do it for our discussion at night. Well, let me ask you this then. So now that you know that it doesn't, the pharmaceutical companies didn't say it,

it maybe was just inflated by the news to all, even the government, because like those two together were kind of on the same team mostly for like pushing this. Now you're hearing some things about, okay, these potentially from these cardiologists that don't wanna speak out, because they're very concerned. So there's a lot of silencing, a lot of pressure there, a lot of funding's gonna get taken away from them, potentially.

Do you have more concern for what the results of the vaccine may be on you and your family? Yeah, I mean, I don't think, you know, like if there's some resurgence today, I would probably not go through it again, but it's hard to say if another instance of the another like another virus or something popped up, you know, and we were in kind of direct rates like we were in? I don't know. You know, I feel like a lot of, I don't know. I guess I don't know. Yeah. I'm sorry to say. But you got to take those case by case, right? Really? Yeah. Because if it was a completely different thing, then it's a different, it's a whole different. Yeah, it's a whole different thing. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't know, man. I think, um, Hey, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I'll make you feel bad about any decisions.

No, you're a fantastic family man. You love your kids. You're excellent at taking care of everybody and even your friends. But it just makes me think that the way we were given information could ultimately have been more dangerous, right, for certain areas of the population. That's right. Right. Maybe. But, you know, I think that there's going to be a lot more, I think, you know, after reading a little bit about it lately, it's like, I, I think there's still a lot of, a lot of research that needs to be done. I still think we're kind of early on in the understanding of, of the drug that we took and of the disease.

You know, I think we're just going to know more. But, you know, I don't know anybody that had an adverse reaction other than just feeling like shit for a day or two. You know, I don't know anybody that had hard issues. And I mean, it's anecdotal, but I didn't see anything. I don't either, to be honest. I mean, Rogan said he knew somebody that had a stroke, you know,

yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I thought I heard of somebody that possibly had a stroke, you know? I'm not gonna lie. I thought I heard of somebody that possibly had a stroke and I was very concerned about that, but I guess it turned out that it was maybe not a stroke, so I don't know what to think, but yeah, that was literally the only one and that person is very dear to my heart and I was very concerned Otherwise these things are more long term, right? If it's a heart thing

It may not be seen for a while. I mean you would have to probably go in and get Your heart checked which is you know what that previous clip was about Yeah, and that and that was about. Um, yeah. Yeah. And that, and that's the difficult part of this is like, do we not get to find out for a few decades? And then the damage is done. But maybe it's nothing, right? Maybe we can just be like, oh, the weird rise in heart attacks

that we're seeing right now is just because, you know, people didn't exercise a lot during COVID, right? This is what they're kind of attributing to. But almost every country has a massive rise in heart attacks right now. Have you found anything on that? Like I've heard that, you know, like, you know, I think that there's this common thread of just like everybody just goes with whatever the talking heads are saying, talking heads are people that just are opinion pieces,

like, Tucker Carlson or any of the news talking heads, right? They're just, they're entertainment. And, you know, I don't, I haven't found anything. Like, is there, like a significant increase in heart attacks? I've heard it. Yeah, so I mean, I just did a general Google. I haven't found anything like is there like a significant increase in heart attacks? I've heard it. Yeah. So I mean, I just did a general Google search on it after hearing lots of times.

And in the UK, that definitely has been. So let me write just right. Here we go. Increased. Increased in heart disease year by year. Yeah. So cardio, vascular disease related deaths jumped from 874,000 in 2019 to 100,000 more in late 2020. thousand more in late 2020 and then did other numbers have surpassed the previous high of 910,000 from 2003 to over a million

So a jump of like that slightly less than 200,000 Maybe we got lazy maybe there's a million other reasons, but sure I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not this. I just wonder how many cardiologists are not discussing this potential connection and it seems like pretty easy data to collect. Did you get the vaccine? Did you not? And if it's overwhelmingly in one direction, that's a huge concern. Yeah, I agree, but I mean, you also, we got to see some studies that

parses out all that in for me, right? Like, okay, like, look up alcohol intake over the last two years and how that's increased across all Western countries, you know, there's all these other things. That's a good point. Because if there was one thing I noticed, Jürgen Kovat is mostly everyone's trash can was just bottles of wine. I can tank the whole time, especially 20, 20, Jesus. That was fun. Yeah. In ways. It was fun. No, I get it. I get it. You know, there's all these confounding issues that we, that you those have tough things to study. I know, but also I don't like this energy that comes with, we just got to forget about it and move on.

Look, forget about all the bad bits. Yeah, forget about all the fighting, but don't forget about figuring out what happened, right? Like if it is, we were drunk at home and didn't work out. Okay. Then fine. Let that be that. If it's something else, like we have to put all of that together. And I'm really hoping the pressures and the biases will reduce because clearly there's been a lot of pressure. Clearly there's been a ton of bias towards funding, you know, and narrative in the news and pressure on careers. Is it okay now if we're talking about just letting it go? Let's let those things go.

So we can sit back and really assess all the data's there. It's like the nice thing is that didn't all get destroyed like all the data in the Wuhan lab by the way. It's like it's there. We have the data. We can go back. What? Is that all the data in Wuhan has been destroyed? Is that the thing? Oh yeah, supposedly. Yeah, they just wiped they wiped everything out of that place. I mean, do you do you believe that they wouldn't have? I mean, you how long ago was it you sent me a study that said that it came from the market and it was a peer review study. that it came from the market. And it was a peer review study. A whole point of learning for a 21. Yeah, peer reviewed study. It definitely came from the market. It was that conclusion.

Because they came from the market, it was analyzing the data. Because they had a bunch of dots, a bunch of dots around the market. Well, I mean, that's what science, that's what you do with science, man. You, you, you got to keep, keep studying and repeat it and see if you get the same results. But, and since then, we've seen some, you know, whisperings from the, from, from our government that it did come from the lab, so I don't know. But, you know, I, I agree with you, Adam, like, I don't think it should be swept under the rug. I think that all that stuff with the unethical actions of drug companies and universities

and agencies and groups that study these types of things, it's really important that we get transparency and regulate those, that whole industry cleared up. And if there was any unethical behavior in the government, if our folks in our administration or in the different agencies that were responsible for the response were corrupt and on the take and that was their sole motivation,

yeah man, we should nail them to the wall. I have 100% agree and I think most people would. Nobody wants people to get away with it. But we can't. We cannot sue them. No, we can't anyway, even if we can prove it. You can't see the drug companies. They have, they have complete.

They live in unity. Yeah, 100%. And it seems like Fauci does too. Like we're under arrest. It seems like it, I don't know, it may be, maybe, like the problem that we face now is like the vision in our country is such that you can't like nobody trusts anybody. So we can't like put together a panel of investigators

to go dig into it. And the likelihood that anybody would trust the results of the outcomes of that would be like slim. Probably that's true. How do you bring that together where you can, where, you know, if it falls one way or the other, like, oh, Fauci did it. And he, you know, made all this money. And he was part of some prod grand conspiracy around the globe to release this train of virus that wasn't lethal, but we can make a $100 billion off of it. No, I don't even think that's the narrative. I think the narrative is that Fauci was a part of gain of function, which they tried to change the

definition of while he was being interrogated by Congress. That's not how they frame it, though. They frame it like there's this grand conspiracy. I mean, there's a group of people. It's probably a small group of people, like everything. Yeah, but that's nonsense, Steve. That's QAnon. All right. What happened? I would imagine is that she's listened to, listen to the people listened to Margaret Taylor, listen to the people that are elected in office right now, this stuff is their target. Oh, well, she's insane. She's nuts. I know. We don't have to go there. No, no, I get it. I get it. There's, there's energy behind these groups. Like I talked to the QAnonans in 2020 in the summer of that. And

you know, they they were like, weirdly on my side with what I was thinking about COVID, but everything else they said was batshit crazy. So I was like, well, I'm definitely not like yeah, but most of my friends, you were saying that's the crazy. No, they were just, they were just being anti, they were, yeah, they were being anti, like freedom, right? And anything that they didn't trust pharmaceutical companies and they didn't trust the idea that they could, that they should have a drug put in them and, you know, someone was going to massively profit from it, right? Mm-hmm.

And... They're traveling like something, right? Yeah, and like they went with magnets and all the rest of it. So, but then of course the rest of COVID was nuts. I mean, the rest of Q&A was nuts. And then for me, where I was, like traveling in between these things, I just saw so many of the people that I usually agree with that were, like, full on. Like, we got to just do this.

This is what's happening. And I couldn't make sense of that either. I, I, I like had no way to be. So it was, it was very destabilizing. I want to play one for sure. More clip, though, as you get to the end of this. And I want to see to have the right one. Here we go.

In my whole career, looking at all the drugs and knowing about many different drugs that are prescribed, I have never seen something when you look at the data, which has such poor effectiveness and such unprecedented harms in my career. It's like nothing I've ever seen before. Which will simultaneously promote it, heavily. Not just promoted, it people coerced. Oh, man, dates. So the key bit of data, right, people say,

oh, lots of data, cherry picking, blah, blah. Just one bit of data alone should be enough to people to stop and think, oh my god, this is just unbelievable. So in the summer towards the end of last year, second half of last year, the journal vaccine peer review, this is like the highest impact medical journal for vaccines, right? They published a reanalysis of Pfizer and Moderna's original double-blinded randomized control trials. So this is the level, the highest quality level evidence. Okay, with all the caveats, drug

industry sponsored all that stuff, right? But still what we call the highest quality level of evidence done by independent researchers. Joseph Freeman, from Louisiana, he's a new doctor, clinical data scientist, associate editor of the BMJ, Peter Doshi, Robert Katlan from Stanford, right, some very eminent in terms, eminence of integrity, right, I'm not for eminent space medicine, but I'm for people who have

eminence of integrity, right, they publishes reanalysis. And what they found was this, in the trials that led to the approval by the regulators, we're going to regulate this in a minute around the world, you are more likely to suffer a serious adverse event from taking the vaccine, hospitalization, disability, life changing event, than you were to be hospitalized with COVID. with COVID. Yeah, I mean, that's a heavy, heavily,

imputation. How many studies like that would have to come out before you would believe that to be true? Like, I'm inclined to believe that's true, because of all the rest of the things that we've talked about, which I've been seeing over these years, the biases, the money, the way that they put trials together, you know, the pressures that I knew good science was probably being held down because people felt like they were going to lose their job. My first inclination was that of that was just holding general regular conversations with people and being shut down like at a bar where I'm just having a drink.

And I'm like, wow, I was just completely shut down by like a kind of irate crazy Karen That was like I cannot even think the way that I'm thinking because I'm a danger And I'm like I can't imagine what's happening of the University levels where people are trying to create Data and research like how many of those sorts of things would you have to hear before you could, would it have to outweigh what you saw over the last three years with peer reviewed studies and, you know,

where COVID came from a wet market type studies? Or like... COVID came from a wet market type studies or like No, I mean I I don't know how to answer that. I don't know like if To me it would depend on Like it so I mean you're referencing a study, right and a study does not, does not, well, never sell me, but if it's, if, you know, I tried to read and, like, I'll go pull a study and read through the paper

and just try and read through the conclusion. You know, I don't know enough about it to like dissect the methods or anything like that, but. But this isn't like a wacky one. This isn't like the ITT tech of science as well. Nice, Brooklyn. Yeah.

It's a good one. I was thinking of Phoenix University for a minute, but yeah, I would, I would just have to see it in a way, you know what I mean? Like, one study, sure, that's like, if it's sound, and it seems like that it holds up just scrutiny. You know, that has a lot of weight for sure, it does. And it's something that you gotta think, you gotta kind of, you have to you got to think you got to kind of

you have to take into consideration at least I would you know that's something that I've I'd listened into this episode I definitely came away from away from it with with the you know a different perspective I thought it was really good And I felt like it highlighted a lot of issues in the system. But still, I think I still have a lot of faith in the scientific process. And so I would have to see just kind of how it bears out in other studies. Yeah, I mean, I do as well.

And I actually never lost faith in the scientific process. What I was concerned about is we weren't actually seeing a representation of what the scientific process was, and that was what was freaking me out. And what I really got out of this episode was less like the things that he was saying, you know, it's like, I appreciated it. I think it's a narrative that should be discussed. But I was really happy that it

sounds like, you know, whistle journals that are coming forward with data that they probably are getting pushback on. And it's like people are getting brave enough to do it. And you could say, well, they just, it's definitely will get a lot of publicity, if you make one of those, right? But it does take away a lot of the factors that we talked about earlier. There's like not a money incentive,

like they're clearly not gonna make a lot of money out of it. And if anything, they risk jeopardizing their own reputation, which in the scientific community is everything to these people. Right. Which to me, when somebody is speaking out, adds more legitimacy, because it's been so much easier to be on the side of just go with it and take it and everything was bad. That was an easy side to be on. I'm always curious when somebody speaks out against it. Because that whole narrative of follow the money, it does kind of stand. If there's no money to be made, what is somebody really saying? It's hard for me, especially in that Dr. Robin Malone podcast,

it was hard for me to believe that he just was nuts and didn't care about people. I just did not believe it. I think if he had come on and was selling a book, I would have been way more suspicious, but they just, they just, he wasn't. He was about to be destroyed and he knew it. But he had to talk about it on the largest platform that would allow him on when no one else would. Right.

That's about brave. I don't listen to that one, man. I need to listen to it. I actually didn't listen to that one. So I'll go back and listen to it. Yeah, it's pretty old now. Yeah, but take that same logic or a thought process and apply it to this conversation with Madra. You know, like what is he having to gain by coming out in the way that he has. And I think he probably, well, hold on, he has a documentary.

So technically, he's making money out of it probably. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't, maybe you don't get into documentaries necessarily make money. No, not usually. I think our goal is the last guy to make a lot of money from a documentary and we're supposed to be 20 feet underwater

You remember that one? I Do remember I don't remember what it's called up a man. Yeah, I know you're talking about Yeah, it was it was just like an environmental one. He was like oh by 2020. We're all be drowned. It was like well close Nailed it. Yeah 20 were all be drowned. It was like, well, close. Nailed it. Yeah. Also, I care about the environment. I'm not saying I don't, but that, that was not a great prediction. I'll go while that. I actually never watched it. I believe that you probably like really like took a deep dive into that documentary. And Oh, yeah, dude. My dad's a huge environmentalist. I was raised that way.

I liked it. When I watched it, I was like, fuck yeah. I was only 20 years old then. I was into it. I was recycling my cans and pulling straws out of turtles noses. I was doing everything I could. Yeah. And now look at you.

Yeah. That's it hunting bears in Montana, baby. It's like the burn in oil like on the side of it just outside your house in a barrel just for the sake of it. Whatever. I still drive a, I drive a full sin with the bro relax. I don't even have an American proper car, but Japanese one. I got gas kidding. I only think about gas prices. That was not the Montana. I get no respect up here, but I need to think about gas prices. Yeah, well, there we go. There we go.

But the point, like I'm curious, you know, like, what is, what is, what is, what is benefit from taking the stance that he has, you know, you got to you got to look at it with equals scrutiny, you know what I mean? And I think, you know, he's definitely well, I mean, he's a cardiologist, I keep he keeps getting fired. So I don't think that's a huge benefit for him. No, that's true. Yeah, what did he have to work for free for a year? Imagine going through medical school and doing that. How many doctors do we know? I know, I know, I pray like six or seven fairly well.

And I think they're good people. I don't think with their student loans and how hard they work that any of them would take a stance even close to that, unless they were self-destructive, which I don't feel like this person is. When it comes down to it, like the part of the conversation

that was talking about just the lack of transparency in that whole industry, and that really hit home with me, and that's something that needs to be a bigger conversation. So I'll watch this documentary, because I'm really curious to see Ken Howie brings information to light and how he frames everything. Yeah, I mean, you know, through all this, I don't want anyone to be more confused. I don't want to be more confused. But I think it's okay to be more skeptical, always. And I don't think that that is bad. I think when people do that, they're thinking.

They're thinking because there were a lot of people telling us what to do. because there were a lot of people telling us what to do. And I don't think that when we look back, they knew what they would necessarily talking about a lot of the time. And mostly I'll point to the news on that one, right? Yeah. I think ultimately it sounds like the news got you and your family vaccinated, not science.

And you know, they kind of need to be responsible. Well, I got a lot of people, Trevor. It wasn't just you. I mean, I got the vaccine too. I'm not an anti-vaccine. I got the damn thing. I don't, I don't watch the news. So as my point, like, I, you know, I went to, I did go to the CDC, you know, I went to different universities that were looking at like Johns Hopkins, and I was trying to figure out for myself what we should do, because you got to take it seriously. But I do think that the news has a big impact

on the narrative, obviously. Yeah, but hold on, I'm not going to let you off on this point. If you went there and they said that it wasn't going to reduce transmission, how did you come up with that conclusion? No, no, no. I only, you know, in looking back and now trying to find what, like I didn't know, I don't, when I've very like

After listening to this podcast and trying to go back and look I I found you know the documentation from the CDC and from like Pfizer and stuff where they said It's the it's not a goal of of this effort is to reduce transmission. I didn't find any of that stuff I just I was affected by the narrative. I don't remember seeing it in any of the literature that it was going to stop it for sure. Well, the CDC, but luckily for them gets to update their website all the time and unless you take screenshots, it's hard to remember what used to be on that.

Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. I mean, it's public domain, right? You should be able to, not, yeah, maybe's true, maybe that's true. It's, I mean, it's public domain, right? You should be able to, not, yeah, maybe. But that's my question here. I'm curious to where you heard that. Like, where was it such a, like a truthful narrative? Like, we already said that the CDC may not have said it. Pharmaceutical companies didn't.

So it must have been a truth and You're not someone that takes things lightly. I know that you look into things you research stuff and this is Mainly my concern with these sorts of things. Yeah It's this is where it gets good season. I Yeah. It's, this is where it gets good season. Yeah, I agree. Now, I just remember like, you know, reading into it and like, you know, all of us sitting around like trying to figure out like, well, yes, do we, do we take this thing?

Yeah, it looks like the data showing that they're safe. It looks like the data is filling that they're going to, they're going to reduce the, the likelihood that you're going to get sick or that you're going to have severe response. And then I don't remember for sure, I guess, now, where I picked up whether or not I would be able to pass it to my parents. You know, that was just something that maybe I just listened to or everybody else was saying.

Yeah, which again, it's a legitimate concern, right? It's like, when you go back to England, I don't want to get my mom sick. I don't want, she's old. Like, I don't want to get a sick either. And, but turns out vaccines won't help without folks. So they will just slightly reduce how much you get sick and the efficacy right now seems like it's about 20%.

So almost nothing. Like a common flu vaccine. It's about 20 to 30% efficacy. Yeah. It's about that. So there we go. Then you know, if you got the flu one, get that one. All right, well, Trevor, I appreciate this, man.

And it's nice to have an argument that doesn't get the blows when people have, you know, like in a lot of ways very different opinions on things. And that's a big part of stuff that I've definitely picked up on the Rogan podcast. There's like, how to attempt those conversations. I like to go ahead first. You know this, we've got into it.

We've got heated. And it's just so much more useful to be like, all right, we can figure this out without getting heated, you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. We have to, we got to do it, you know, like for just across the country, we got to figure out how to have conversations. And I think that's one thing that's been good from the Joe podcast is just, it's given that space or conversation. You know, I don't, I think that there's probably a lot of people that just take everything that they hear on the podcast as gospel, but it's, I think it's really changed the way that we have conversations.

You know, there's all these other podcasts now that are really having a good conversation also. For sure. I mean, that's a good point. I think it's like led the way for like Lex Friedman, Hugh Roman, Peterson, you know, and possibly in a lot of ways, you know, people at least with like more backed up factual stuff may even do it better than Rogan, you know, he wings a lot of it.

Bless him. And I love that. He does. I love that about the show. Yeah, but it keeps it, it keeps it so much more casual, but I think it adds that legitimacy to people that are like heavily backed up with facts, like Peterson, like Lex Freeman, like Andrew human, because you know, it allows this kind of new way of speaking and and put your opinions in with your facts and it's in a spread over such a long period of time that that you have a real chance to understand it right it's like 60 minutes used to be the only place we would get

something even close, I think, right? Now you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not much more digestible than other formats and like some of those other guys you mentioned for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's a real life to it for sure. Yeah. And while also with a human thing, it's like so much of what he lays down is like good science and good everything. But unlike what you're saying about Rogumware, plenty of people probably just follow and believe everything, Andrew will bring up something and maybe like, okay, all alcohol is bad, never drink again.

Well, I know plenty of people that are going to be like, Andrew, thank you for that. It's good information. I believe it's true, and I'm going to definitely continue to have beers. Drinking. Because life is hard. Right.

Love it. All right. Well, for this very unusual and special episode, we are done done and thank you guys for paying attention if anyone made it to the end of this. I really appreciate it Hopefully you made some sense out of it and Trevor. Thank you It's been a pleasure always you've always been a good friend somebody that inspires me constantly to think and definitely always be a better person. I couldn't find anybody to have on the pod that had a different outlook on this that I

would have wanted to talk to. So thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for asking me, bud. I know it was just because all your first choice was not available, but I'll play a second fiddle for you anytime I'm at. Yeah, you were like fourth choice, but I couldn't afford it. I love your brother. All right, thanks guys. And we're checking with you next week. Appreciate you.