Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 428 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Magnus Carlson

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

For more Rogan exclusives support us on Patreon patreon.com/JREReview www.JREreview.com For all marketing questions and inquiries: [e-mail] Follow me on Instagram at www.instagram.com/joeroganexperiencereview Please email us here with any suggestions, comments and questions for future shows.. [e-mail]

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review Podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast and pass them on to you, perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the talking dead to Joe's walking dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created. Now with your host hosts Adam Thorne

One go enjoy the show. Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan experience review this week, I'm joined by Hayden, how you doing buddy? Good, how are you? Thanks for having me. Chess Nerd? Question mark. Chess Nerd? Question mark. Love it. I like to throw myself in that category,

except I'm not good enough to call myself a chess nerd. I just like chess a lot. I'm not good enough at it though. Yeah, I would agree. It's too difficult, dude. Oh no, there's so many different variables that you can have to take into account and it gets way too complex.

But it's so fun to watch. Fun nonetheless. And just like fantasize that you could be that good. Yeah. It's like, how do their brains work? I couldn't tell you. It gets, the highest levels of it is just incomprehensible sometimes. Yeah.

And Magnus Carlsen, who Rogan talked to recently, is the highest level of it. I mean, yeah, greatest chess player of all time, right? Highest ranked. Yeah. Ever. Yeah, ever. What is his score? 28? 2800, yeah. Bananas. Yeah. I don't even know how you get to that level. It's basically a computer. Yeah, basically. Like a human computer. He's the only one who has a chance at some of these AI systems that they're creating for chess. Yeah, but still no chance. Yeah, no chance. Still no chance. Interesting that Tony Hinchcliffe was on the pod. I mean, I know he likes to come in when there's WWE wrestlers. He's a big fan of that. He pops in every now and again, you know, when he wants the fanboy out,

but I would have never guessed. Oh, me neither. That he would come in for Magnus. And he was really like in awe. Yeah. Like you could tell he was a big fan of. Oh yeah, he was just quiet and just truly listening to everything he said.

All right. I felt like Magnus was, he's pretty humble in a lot of ways. Like he's in front of Rogan, which is like a big show, you know. I guess that could be seen as a lot of pressure and maybe it is for a lot of people. He seemed very chill though. Very relaxed, very much how I've always seen him present himself. I wonder if that's part of his skills, his superpower to playing chess well,

just staying level. Oh, you have to be. The pressure that you face on the world stage like that, you have to remain calm, especially with a game that's so focused on analytics, strategy, and all of that. Yeah. God, imagine that stress, don't they?

I think I heard this once you like burn those guys, burn like 10,000 calories or like something. And I'm like, well, from what? Just thinking just the brain power, either that or they're so tense that it's just like these just contraction, um contraction exercises they're doing the whole time but they can sit there and play a game for like eight hours yeah right like it's got to take a toll on your brain after a while yeah I I'm in awe of it and this is this is why I was so pumped to have Rogan talk to him

because I know Rogan doesn't play chess, but he's always fascinated by people that are the best at what they do and he wants to kind of figure out how it happens and I and I think that he was asking a lot of the right questions to get there. I just don't know if Magnus knew. No, he didn't seem like he was well aware he just goes about and does his own thing, whatever his intuition tells him. It almost seems like he's not all that impressed with his own ability. He's just like, yeah I do this and then I prep like that and I watch these things and I have a good memory. It was just hard to kind of piece together, like how is this genius being created? Yeah.

He's very humble to even recognizing his own ability. What did you think of the controversy? The big story? So that one is a difficult one. Because there was the instances with Neiman cheating in the past on chess.com to, you know, play those higher rated players because he thought he had the ability to. And you look at, you know, what Magnus was saying, um, even when he gets to those classical on the board games,

he doesn't perform as well as he normally would if he was playing online. So that definitely does spark some controversy if there, if he was still cheating in those instances. But Carlson also did mention that Neiman has gotten significantly better since then. So I think that there definitely was a time that Neiman was cheating and I forget what the chessboard is called, Fide. They still say that the game that Neiman played against Carlson was legit and that he didn't cheat,

but there is still some evidence to kind of suggest that, you know, he did cheat in the past, so what's to stop him from doing it now? It's a good point. Did he beat Carlson that time? He did, yeah. Ooh. Yeah. So that's why it's kind of like,

maybe Carlson was just a little bit upset that he got beat, cause you know, that does take a toll on your ELO. And especially with someone that young, uh, just doesn't make sense. But another point that Carlson brought up in the podcast is that, um, he had these anonymous accounts that he would play on chess.com. So people wouldn't recognize him. And he went and talked to some Russian grand master. And just because of Carlson's play style,

he was able to figure out that these anonymous accounts were Magnus Carlson. So these people who are at the top of their game, who truly understand each individual facet and component that it takes for to play chess at the highest level, he's able to recognize that. So maybe he is able to see how Nieman was making some of these moves that just baffle these grandmasters and point to the fact that he could be cheating.

Holy shit. So this Russian guy figured out Carlson's games. He's like, that's that guy. Yeah, just from his play style. And then because Carlson did point to that, which I found quite interesting. I'd never really thought about it. It's like, you know, somebody plays in a particular style. And then if they throw a curve ball, it just doesn't make sense. It's like you're either being kind of aggressive or defensive, or you just have this flow.

And then there's this move out of nowhere that is a good move, it's positive, but it doesn't fit the rest of the game. I've always looked at each move as like a singular thing, but I guess it doesn't make sense that it would be. You're always doing something. Right, and there can just be like one move that's like just even a tiny mistake of moving the wrong piece, or it's not like a complete blunder, but it does allow an opportunity for a chink in your armor to be exposed and

He talks about that in there that he he alludes to the fact that He could also cheat at this game and be the best that he could possibly be if he just knew like that one of these Critical moments happened and figuring out what the best move is in that situation And capitalizing on that is it's just those tiny slip-ups that can make the entire game Yeah, because it would make sense right that you know a lot of times you know where to go right and then other times you're like all right this is really calm there's a lot going on in this corner what do I do yeah I mean I can't tell you how basically what happens to my brain when I get there is

I just guess and it's almost always terrible. Oh yeah, no, I agree. It's just like intuition at that point. Yeah, it gets bad because when you're not that good at chess, I mean, I get to a point where like even thinking for too long is going to make the move worse, so I just kind of speed it up. Oh, I agree. I think it's like kind of just having that parasympathy doing the simplest thing is the best option at that point. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of the anal beads? Or I thought it was a butt plug originally,

but they were saying anal beads a lot on the podcast, but whatever it was, it's like, I wonder, you know, I know that Magnus said it came from Reddit and you know, it was just, but I mean that was the story Yeah, that was what the news picked up. Yeah, I mean it definitely has some shock value to it, but like with sure the clickbait of course, but uh With the checks that they do before the games it doesn't You know, it's kind of hard to put that out of a theory that could be reasonable because they're not gonna be checking

You know checking people's asses for anal, uh, anal beads. I would hope not. Yeah. Right. I want to think that we live in a world where chess tournaments don't require the TSA. Yeah. You know what I mean? You would hope, but at this point in time, I guess not. They're just scanning them in.

Yeah. That's so wild though. And now they're doing this Netflix documentary. It didn't sound like Magnus was like super stoked on it. No, I don't think so. From what I was reading about the documentary, it's it does get back into that controversy again. But it seems like they're more just getting the perspective of the other grandmasters at the time. They didn't really publicly share that they thought Neiman was cheating, but now they're actually

stepping forward, showing their faces, sharing their voices to say like, yeah this is what we think is going on. So it's not anything like new building to the case, but it is just getting those people in the limelight. Well I sent you the article earlier that he has now reached out to Rogan or tried to and he wants to come on and tell his story. Not necessarily rebuttal what Magnus said but just kind of defend his position. I'm curious to see if Rogan's interested in that. I mean he's not a huge, it's not like this is a chess podcast, so otherwise

it would happen. Yeah. But I don't know, I think there could be some interest there. Oh, I 100% agree. I think Rogan is more of a person who wants to get the whole story to hear both sides and you know, come to a consensus of what the truth is and having Nieman's perspective would be, would be great to hear, especially on a platform like his that reaches a massive audience. Right. And then, you know, just another chance to talk about butt plugs and anal beads. Hilarious. Oh, for sure. Hilarious. I feel like, you know, I don't know. It's like,

I don't know how to cheat like that, but I feel like there will be easier ways. Oh, can you just put a thing in your shoe that vibrates? Yeah, true. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's gotta be some, it's gotta be some different, different things, but at the same time, there's a lot of pressure for these top guys and you know, when it comes to Magnus, I mean, with these AI systems in place, the types of computers that can win, it doesn't take a lot.

If an individual just has a little bit of access and one of those machines, they're gonna be able to beat him every time. Oh, easily. And this is his whole world. Yeah, he's worked very hard to get to that level. And like a big thing with the ELO ratings, like in open tournaments, for example, you know, if you lose two games but win the entire tournament, your ELO ratings like in open tournaments for example you know if you lose two games but win the entire tournament your ELO still goes down and it's a it's a big deal for you know people like Magnus Carlsen who is a 2800 rating even just losing those two games can mean a world of difference and to have someone who cheats to mess you up like that can... that would piss me off too.

Wasn't he... like there was a lot of talk about if he could get to 2900. Yeah I believe so. It's just once again just get building your ELO up like that you you can't win or you can't lose. If you lose one game then you're automatically pretty much getting set back no matter how many games you win. Yeah I heard him say not that long ago that he just doesn't think he can get there. He was just like, I think he, if I remember rightly, he was saying that at one point he thinks he could have, but it's like past for some reason. And I don't know what he's really saying that other than, you know, he's kind of moved away from the world championship games and certain types of,

I know he just did this blitz one recently. He's kind of going into some different areas. You know, there's some bureaucracy, I think happening and some politics throughout the chess world that he's kind of tired of. Um, they kicked him out of one tournament cause he wore jeans and it's like, come on now. Yeah. Jeans. Should it be the end of the world? But I mean, like what he says in the podcast, he, he doesn't like thinking of it like a job. He likes to keep it as a hobby that he wants to stay motivated from himself.

And you know, when you focus solely on getting to that rating it just I feel like he would definitely get burnt out and not really enjoy it as much. Well it's always a good move to keep what you do as a hobby you enjoy. Oh for sure. I mean not for everyone some people are driven I'm sure a lot of the Russian players saw it as their job, their duty, their patriotic obligation, and it was everything to them and that's how they rocketed to the top. But yeah, that doesn't seem like Magnus' style. He wants to keep it chill and play with some of the specialty things that he's done. Like, for example, blindfolded, playing against, what was it?

12 people. 12 people, yeah. What do you make of that type of thing? Like being someone that plays chess, enjoys it. How far away from the realm, like if you'd never heard of this being possible, like no one ever even doing one game that way, and then you hear someone do 12, it's like what do you even think? I can't even comprehend that. Like even when I'm just looking at my the game on my phone or just having a board in front

of me, when if I were to close my eyes and try to figure out where the chess pieces are at, I wouldn't even be able to do it just looking at the board. But to do it with 12 different games simultaneously, keeping track of each board position and what your opponent just did, your mind is, I can't even fully comprehend that. Yeah, and he checks mates, everyone.

Every single one. And they're like guys from Cambridge or something. Yeah, they're not just bad. They're good chess players. Yeah. Honestly, it just shows his level of expertise. And I think it also highlights just the way his brain works, is it's not just normal.

Like they do get into the podcast about epigenetics of what people or what makes these people the best at their game. And I think having that memory is just probably one of his most important assets. He still says that he'll be at a position on the board with an opponent and recognize it from games like decades ago and he will know exactly what line to play. Wow. I think that's just like, it's got to be one of your best weapons in your arsenal. Yeah, you said, you know, a lot of these guys do this, but Magnus used to do this, where you would just read books,

like old chess books weren't really instructional guides. They were literally just all the games. So you would just look through Grandmaster games and there was just this period of time where people would memorize the entire game. So I guess it's that, right? You just get to a point where you're like, oh that looks like this. That's this pattern, I just follow this now. And what I don't get about that though, is why the other person will do different things. Probably.

That is a hard part to truly figure out. I know Carlson likes to go to some of those older positions and just try different moves just for the spice things up. Because you can do these textbook openings as much as you want that you know are gonna be effective and get you to certain endpoints but you know like from what he says it's just boring it did it brings the soul out of the chess and to find those different creative solutions to see if there is a different angle or a stronger opportunity to take is I think that just

keeps the game more enjoyable for him. Yeah. Well, it sounds, it sounds like he's getting inspired, you know, or has been for a while with the, like the new up and comers and their new strategy to like how they're going about it. He seems very impressed and I don't want to say intimidated, but he can see that there's some people coming up that are going to be out of beat him. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

With the way that they're working. What do you think about the new strategies that these kids are taking with chess now, whether it's with AI or chess theory even? Well, it sounded fascinating to me and it makes total sense. I mean, he talked about the one young kid that would be multitasking. He'd be playing one game, answering questions totally on it, doing something else where he's like betting or gambling or something like that. It was all of it kind of happening at once. I mean, that's total obsession. Yeah. And if you want to be the best at something as difficult as chess, it's probably the only way. Yeah. You have to be relentless.

Yeah. And I think it inspires Magnus because I don't want to say this came easy to him. He's obviously put a lot of work in, but I mean, you know, he, he drew with Gary Kasparov when he was 13. I mean, he's been, let's say it came pretty easy to him. And now he's watching these people. What was it? He was buying time on the cloud or something. It was like access to a computer that would run really tough.

Like, what are they using? Super computers to play chess with? Yeah, mixed with deep neural networks too. Dude. Yeah. Like, chess with? Yeah, mixed with deep neural networks too. Dude. Yeah. Like what the? Yeah. And a lot of the theories that people are like, he brought this up back in, I think it was 2020 when AlphaZero came out, which was one of the greatest chess engines at the time that added those deep neural networks. And he was able to learn from the tactics that these chess engines used to think hundreds of moves ahead before even making a move that he completely changed his strategy.

And just by learning how those computers worked, he was able to have an upper hand on a lot of his opponents. No shit. Yeah. And now all of these kids who are growing up, they play a lot of his opponents. And yeah, and now all of these kids who are growing up, they play a lot of these engines, whether it's on your phone or actually sitting down with like a professional one on your computer.

And you learn to be more informed from those programs that I mean, sure, you may not have been able to comprehend what they were thinking or those computers were thinking because they're thinking hundreds of moves ahead and us humans just, we can't truly keep up with that. But having that knowledge now, and we can understand why it works, but I think that's going to inform a lot of these newcomers' games,

and it's going to pretty much revolutionize the way that we play chess. Yeah, and to be fair, I mean, the human brain is a pretty spectacular, like, rarely understood, you know, organ. And even though we can't think the, you know, hundred moves ahead, like that timeline is like, you know, maybe they're like, I'm about six moves. But often there's other stuff going on that we don't even know about. So if they're watching these engines play and picking up these different patterns, maybe there's something the brain does that's like, all right, I'm just going to kind of skip through, you know, multiply the game, you know, piece moving by 10,

and then it's just like, ah, I see what is kind of unfolding here. Yeah, we kind of pick up on their patterns too, and it helps us to be more informed about our own game and kind of pick up the computer aspects too. Well, you know what's interesting about that is I think we, you know, we've got like the Tesla, what is it called? The Optimus robot that they want to release. Yeah, we got a bunch of these robots that are going to start showing up places, right? It may not be in households right away, but someone's going to buy those things as soon as they're released and they're going to be popping up all over the place.

You assume that they're going to know chess because they're probably have chat GPT brains and to be at it, I think, sit down with like a humanoid thing and of all the things to play it feels like chess would be the most natural. It'd be kind of weird to play Monopoly with a, you know, your house robot. But like to sit there and play chess and have it teach you within it can play in any style. You could literally say to it like be 5% better than me. So that you don't feel like an asshole, like you feel like you had a chance, but you get a little better every time and then it gives you some coaching afterwards. That'd be incredible.

Dude, I'd be all about that. In fact, that's the main thing I've been thinking about why I want to get one of those robots. And they could do loads of stuff like your laundry or whatever I don't care. Forget my laundry. I'd like to sit down and be like, can you tell me why I'm still shit at chess? I need to get better at this game. It could figure it out. Oh yeah. I believe it. Yeah. I'd be the best teacher. Yeah. You can go. I mean, you can do it probably now with chat GPT, but it's too boring. I'm not moving the other side and then reading a lot. Exactly. With a robot, you could actually just have them talk to you in person,

feels like actual coach or something. I never would have thought about it like that. I would be happy if the robots were used like that. Do it on PumpFort. Yeah. Yeah. They're probably just going to be used to kill us. Yeah, pretty much. Sadly, we don't pump for it? Yeah. Yeah. They're probably just going to be used to kill us. Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah. Sadly, we don't get to enjoy those type of things. Were you surprised to hear, and you know, Rogan is always banging on about new tropics. He loves them. You know, we're banging some zins right now. New tropics. Right.

But I was kind of surprised to hear that Magnus doesn't really have a regiment for that. Yeah, me too. I mean, like Rogan was saying, like, why not try to take these supplements that could just elevate your game just ever so slightly if you truly want to be the best of the best of your field. Yeah.

But I also kind of feel like Rogan was kind of pushing to promote his own little brand. Oh, he was a, but yeah, he was, I was surprised he didn't bring it up, honestly. I think that he's that into it and he probably had to stop himself because he knows how shitty that would sound. And he was probably like, fuck, I did it again. But at the same time, it's like, you know,

it's hard to deny that Magnus is not a genius. Right. Like for all the ways that we throw that word around, it's like we give it to, I don't know, Stephen Hawkins, right? That's reasonable. I don't know who else gets to be called geniuses, but like people that really stand out like that, he has to be that. Yeah. Because this isn't exactly a physical sport. This is all coming from the brain. He's that good. And then you, you would think, well, you know, if you're Christiano Ronaldo, you're taking all the supplements, right? Creatine, you're on it all and you're running all day, you're peeking. So what is he doing? He's just like, oh, I just try to sleep good. It's like, dude, I don't, that, no,

it's not enough. No, like he could be doing so much, but I do find it kind of fascinating that he just kind of goes about his intuition about what's best for him. Like how he said that there was the one game that he showed up late just wearing sweatpants where in the morning he just felt like he needed to go outside and he just went to go ski. And I honestly really admire that. I mean, sure, like you could be elevating yourself with all these different supplements and training regimes, but that he just trusts himself and his brain to know what's best for him in that moment. I think that's fascinating.

Yeah, you're right. Because it takes away some of the beauty of his experience. And his experience is he's not here just for our entertainment. Right. Right. I'm sure a lot of people at the top of their game feel that they are. Yeah. And they have to perform, you know, like a LeBron James. It's like, I'm here for the, for the fans or for the, you know, the winning. And he wants to win. Of course he wants that, but he also wants it to be this fun hobby. Yeah. And probably why he's taking a step back now, not just that he's done it all and

he's getting a bit older, but maybe he doesn't find it as fun anymore. Yeah. I admire that. I mean, I think that's still why he is able to perform at the top of his game. Like even just when it comes to learning, like when the new AI models came out, he was able to get excited about that. And it wasn't the same game that he knew anymore. And I think that does a lot for our intrinsic motivation.

And I'm happy that he actually pursues that and stays true to it. Yeah, he was saying that they obviously play different. What was that one engine that he said isn't even that good good but they still keep it around because it does some weird shit? I think it's Layla. Okay. Like it'll make some like fundamental blunders or some very elementary blunders to begin but then in later games it could just make a move that's just like it doesn't make sense to any humans, but then it completely settles the game. Now, did they explain how that works? Like, why it does that?

I don't think so. Because I never heard this before. But it's kind of interesting. Oh, yeah. What I was thinking when I heard that is like, OK, so could you take this program, it has to be a program, right? Right. And then plug it into some sort of AI and be like, all right, do this, but now have all the power that it doesn't have.

Because he was saying it's not a very powerful engine or something. Yeah. So there's like the distinction between like the deep neural networks and the actual super computers that, like, I forget what the model was that he brought up that was like the size of a computer, the size of a building. And now we're working with deep neural networks that are just on a little hard drive. So if you combine those two powers, maybe it can do more of those complex calculations.

But another point to that of why it makes those elementary errors is maybe it's sort of like this paralysis by analysis, what he also brought up, that it's thinking far too ahead and it doesn't realize the simpler moves. Right. But I also don't understand these AI systems well enough to truly understand how they... But it's nice to just take a guess. Yeah, exactly.

Right? Right. I mean, I guess that's kind of in the same line as when he said that he was playing, was it in New York? Like those chess guys in the park? Yeah. He's put, I think it was there that he said, so this older guy obviously been playing in the park forever and he plays so many games, maybe didn't get the

backstory reasonable, but he said he had a really strange opening that it just, it doesn't make any sense to him. And he, he thought he'd seen it all. And it kind of led him into a, like a nasty trap and this person just developed it himself. And what I liked about that is not to take anything away from this individual, but he's obviously not a grand master or someone that's ranked, you know, globally. However, he's still very good at chess and he's come up with this like bizarre, unusual trap, probably works very well for him. And you start thinking about that in terms of these strange programs, you know, and these AI neural

networks that can just kind of weave this game in a new way. I wonder how far this can evolve. Is it just one of those games where it's like, it's been around forever. Here all the openings, here all the closings, don't fuck anything up, and then you'll be world champion because that's how the computers work. Or is there like this whole new game? Because there's like billions of moves, right? Potential. Immediately it's like exponential on top of each other.

So could there be this like wild variation that we've never seen? Oh, probably. It's this question of whether these computers can, you know, quote, solve chess. Yeah, solve it. Find all these different possibilities and find the right moves to always play. And you know, we see certain openings that people have played where, you know know you can go like 50 moves in and be at this like the theoretical best point of the game and it'll always end in a in a draw but I would be curious to see how these computers these AI models could completely change the game and how we think of it or if it truly is just something that's so statistically sound that we always have to play the best moves.

I think that's the problem with those AI models is that they're always making the best decisions possible. I think that the errors that humans make is what keeps the game fun. Doing the moves that are not always the best introduces different lines and different opportunities for people to be creative and capitalize on it versus always thinking hundreds of moves ahead and always making the best possible move.

It would be interesting, like obviously you're calculating the best move because it's the best move in a series of moves that thinks so many moves ahead. But also it's kind of interesting to think, Oh, not a blunder, but like a weird move. Yeah. Just kind of sets this chain reaction in place that ultimately becomes a strength. Yeah. It's like that kind of variation. I don't know if that's real. Um,

and why I say that is because I don't know how they calculate the best move. Maybe it just is maybe it's the best move, best move. And the smartest computer gets there. I heard for a while that they were putting in the engines against each other and everything was just becoming drawers because they could anticipate, which to me at that time kind of suggested that, Oh, they both solve chess. Because if you just play your best game against the best thing, it makes sense that no one wins. Everything's a draw. It's kind of like,

the game's done. We need a more complicated game, but who knows? Who knows? Maybe, maybe there's just a new, you know, let's get quantum computers in here. Oh my gosh. That's like next level. We need some like 4D chess for that. We need to invent a new one that worked this way up. Look, I really enjoyed this episode.

I thought Magnus, you know, he's very similar to how he is in, in any time you hear him talk. And I really found that kind of refreshing. And, um, also I think Joe and Tony kind of fanboyed out a little bit. There's, there's something just magnificent about somebody that's really, even if you don't appreciate chess, everyone knows how fucking hard that is. Right. And when you hear that this person is just the best, it's like, that must be special.

Yeah. Very, very cool. Very cool. I hope he comes on again. I really want to see the Netflix documentary coming out. Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna be a bit click-baity I think but it's gonna be exciting and I'd be interested. What was the other guy's name? The Hanz Beeman? Yeah, yeah, I'd be interested for him to come on. I'm kind of hoping Rogan does if he does he needs to get it on pretty soon. Yeah, because you know, it's got to make sense for the

Time but yeah, I'd like to hear his case and I don't know I feel like if he's a cheater we're gonna get out of him Oh, yeah, I would hope so at least and you know, it's also good publicity for the game of chess, too I mean it was in the past and you know with Rogan's audience I hope it just gets more people to enjoying and loving the game. Oh a hundred percent. I mean to be fair yeah that anal beads story really picked up chat. There was no one that didn't know about that and no one even knows who wins the the world or even gives a shit. Like maybe they've heard of Magnus, right? He's that big.

But I can't tell you five top chess players. I should, I wonder if I can, no. Yeah, I can't do it, it's embarrassing. I wish I could. I know like the content creator ones, but yeah, that's a good point, yeah. It's that shock value that really stands out. Awesome, well thank you Hagen,

and thank you everyone for listening. We appreciate you guys and gals, and we will talk to you next week.