Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 441 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Jordan Peterson

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

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This might either be the worst podcast or the best one of all time. Two, one, go. Enjoy the show. Hey folks and welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Review. This week we are reviewing Jordan Peterson, the man, the myth, the controversial legend. Today my co-host is Andy the therapist. How you doing Andy? I'm doing well thanks for having me. Great, yeah thanks for being here. It kind of makes sense that we should have a couple of therapists break down some of Jordan's ideas, not like he comes on in his full-blown therapy mode,

but you know, he's a psychologist and smart guy, has very interesting clinical research-based ideas on how he kind of sees the world. And yeah, I've always found him interesting for sure Definitely an interesting guy in front of what I've learned is he's a kind of a regular status on Joe Rogan Mm-hmm eighth or ninth appearance. Yeah, he's been coming on for about ten years So And you're kind of new to Jordan, right? Right, right. So basically what got him on the show is he really pushed hard against the compelled speech laws that they were creating in Canada around pronouns

and those sorts of things. And he would tie it in to basically points in history when the compelled speech was mandated. And he would give examples of like it happening in Russia or these other countries and then where it goes from there. So he really saw it as a very slippery slope, not just this like new thing that we could add to our vocabulary. And I didn't really have a take on it either way, but I mean, he stood his ground and it caused a lot of controversy. And, um, in the end, Canada kind of won.

I mean, they made those laws, you know, he was kind of pushed out of the university, um, system and, but also became very famous. So we started touring and speaking his mind and. Yeah, he's definitely been on Canada's radar in terms of his social media presence and the controversy that's followed him from that origin. For sure. And it does seem like because of that, he did really push against the left. I think he was quite left before all of this happened. And now he's far more conservative is what it seems like.

There's just been this bit of this transition. I think in a lot of ways Joe's done that too and plenty of other people as noted in our last election. Oh, okay, people are going that way. I definitely picked that up in this podcast. Yeah. It doesn't take long, right? There's, they're definitely leaning on few points. I really like how it opened up, you know, I mean,

it Jordan's a very serious person and Joe can be too, but they also just like to have some fun and push it. They were talking about Shane Gillis and Jamie from the show buying OJ Simpson memorabilia and Not only is that like a kind of a funny quirky thing to do but it also is like What is it about that? Like there is something dark about that, right? Just to own a piece of it. It's like having a Nazi cup or something. Well, the world of collectibles

is definitely something that's interesting. And this comes up quite often actually with what someone's value and worth is on something. And if they feel like they need to own that bit of dark history there, I don't have an issue with it, but you know, it still can bring some comedy at least. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for those guys, it's probably just a good talking point. Um, but yeah, supposedly Shane spent thousands of dollars on some of this

stuff. Well, growing up in the early eighties, I'll tell you this, my mom loved OJ Simpson. A lot of people absolutely loved him. And she was a little destroyed by the events of the late 80s and early 90s. But you know, she might be the one to that would still would want a Bill's Jersey or something. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I guess. Yeah, does it make everything all bad? Probably does. Probably does. You know, a big thing that almost always comes up when Jordan's on is just his impact or experience, you know, with with young men, young men feeling stuck. That's a lot of his like guidance for his book, 12 Rules, just to kind of create a more positive compass, I guess, for how someone should structure their lives.

And I think Jorul is a big part of why he is as popular as he's become and definitely early on, was that there are a lot of young men that don't have good guidance. They've got like no North Star. Maybe their dad's not around. Maybe he is and he sucks. Maybe maybe he's a good dad and they just don't want to listen to him.

And it's like, well, who do we follow now? You know? And it is interesting because in the eighties, like I was drawn to like Arnold Schwarzenegger movies and like Ram, but it was just like, that was what a man is. It's not a very productive way to like orient yourself as you grow into being a man. But I think it does highlight just the lack of potential directions that you would lean into. Yeah, definitely.

I could see that too with like, growing up watching a lot of James Bond movies. Oh yeah, that was me. He didn't have the best take on how you might treat women, but also those are our role models, Harrison Ford, Indiana Jones, Han Solo. Yup. And I agree, Stallone and Schwarzenegger. But also, those are our role models, Harrison Ford, Indiana Jones, Han Solo. And I agree, Stallone and Schwarzenegger.

Good hypothetical here is, what if there's a kid who's put up for adoption, grows up in foster care, or an orphanage or some kind of institution like that, primarily run by women. The stats should back that up. Where's their family systems in terms of role models? Who is the male that they're looking towards? That's a good point. Probably the security guys that are not very nice to them. Probably, or even if they might have like a male teacher,

or if they're involved with what Jordan brings up, like if they're involved in the church, there might be a youth minister or a pastor or something like that. So those are the people that they're looking towards. Yeah, it's, you know, what's hopeful about is it doesn't take much. You know, like seriously down to Rogan having a podcast where he gets stoned with his comedy buddies and occasionally references things he's done in his life that have improved his

life. Like being a hard worker or being, you know, solely focused on these difficult pursuits, doing difficult pursuits. Things like jiu-jitsu, eating healthy, kettlebells all the time, like nutrition. These little pieces, expanding your mind maybe with psilocybin, it's more of a dangerous one, but you know, it's, it's, he's talking about his growth. And I think that the impact overall for young men that have listened to his show is extremely positive. You know, people have their concerns today because not everyone's a fan of Joe. He's got very big.

He has a lot of polarizing elements. And, you know, I don't hold it against any parent that's like, oh, I don't really want my kids listening. I'm like, I get it. Do whatever. against any parent that's like, oh, I don't really want my kids listening to that. I'm like, I get it, do whatever. But for those kids that didn't have that male role model, the fact that you can download it this many hours a week

and pull good out of it, which I don't think was Rogan's intention at any point. It just, it's why he appeals to people. And I read through some of the comments on the podcast platform that I was listening to. And a lot of the viewers and listeners were saying, thank God that this is gonna be a good episode where it's not just shenanigans basically the whole time.

Right, yeah. I mean, he's had so many comedians on recently and they're often fun to listen to, but they come on a lot. So they're not doing the better conversations that Rogan has when it's a new guest, because they do kind of a bio intro. They talk about their timeline, their story and their reason for coming on. Once they've come on a bunch of times, it's just like a couple of guys hanging out and

they, you know, those ones are like much harder to review really for times, it's just like a couple of guys hanging out. And they, you know, those ones are like much harder to review really for me because it's just like it talking about stuff from all over the place and often very similar subjects. Well, that was one of the things I did like about what Jordan said there, the initial part of that podcast was his mindset going in, just wanting to have fun. Like it's just about having fun. It doesn't have to be serious, just two guys talking.

And I'm not having a lot of experience with them. I'm like, oh, this should be pretty interesting. So let's see where this goes. Right. And I think it is, you know, a good thing. I don't know if Joe sits there and actively thinks, this is how I'll be on the pod today. He's very much just, let's see how it goes and I'll go whatever direction it needs to be. But he loves to air on the side of just fun and silly. That's why he likes, you know, doing these sorts of things. But for Jordan, like I said, he's a very serious guy. He, you know, is still interacting with a ton of people

all of the time that are like, thank you for helping my life or reorienting this and that and here's my story. And yeah, I think he carries a lot, like a heavy weight from that. I mean, he discussed it when he started to tour first. Instead of just being in front of one person that you have empathy for. Now there's 1500 people in a room all telling you stories. And you know, he said that was hard. It's like get used to that. Yeah. I've never thought about it like that. I almost would think that the

more you have, in a sense, you're just lecturing to them, there's kind of like greater separation, but maybe not. It's definitely a different experience. I have been in front of large audiences before, not 1500 people, but maybe 100 people at once. It's still a lot of people. It's a lot of people. And conducting any kind of behavioral health or mental health trainings with a microphone in your hand is very different than sitting down face to face with a client.

Mm. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I can imagine. The the attitude thing also stands out to me because it's it's kind of like when he was saying it, it was like, how often do I think of this? Like when I'm going over the gym, I never think to myself, I want to be perceived in a way that's often friendly and approachable and these sorts of things. But I don't actively think about it. And my mood and temperament, it's like fluctuates all day. It's a little different, you know, probably more drowsy in the morning and less likely to communicate and end of the day and we're a bit more excited because work's finished.

And I wonder what the impact would be if I was more conscious of moving into environments and saying, I wanna be like this in this environment. A level of like preparation kind of mindset before a game Like getting into that zone. Yeah. Yeah instead of just kind of like plotting into it and being like I'm at the gas station again Right. What am I gonna expect walking into this convenience store? The The pain of divorce was like a big thing that they brought up. Now those two are both married with children with the spouse that they had the kids with.

You know, Rogan is a product of divorce. I guess his dad left quite young. He was quite abusive Not necessarily towards Joe, but he was aggressive and then Joe got a stepdad who was much nicer bit of a hippie things were much calmer at home and Yeah, they kind of discuss like the experience of that happening and the impact on kids for one, which seems to change with age. I mean if they're very young, I don't know if it's easier, but it's at least easier at that time.

Well, I've got two different takes on that one. I am also a product of divorce. And if I want to call it a fortunate divorce, I've got two different takes on that one. I am also a product of divorce. And if I want to call it a fortunate divorce, I will. My parents divorced when I was in my mid-20s. So it was not like, okay, whose house am I going to go live at? No, I'm already established. I'm working. I have a kid of my own and then my parents divorce.

So if there's a good scenario there, I'll take that But also having been through a divorce with young children. That's a different thing like my youngest son Doesn't even remember when the time was when his mom and I lived together. Mm-hmm. So that can be interesting going forward Yeah, and you just try to normalize the best you can Yeah Yeah, it happened to me when I was, I think in nine, nine. So I had a good amount of time, I would say, with my parents and being together. And they were a good team when they were. And it got, it got increasingly bad quickly afterwards.

it got increasingly bad quickly afterwards. So the impact there was much harder for me because in my brain the solution was if they were just together, everything would be fine. Yeah. And, but for my younger brother, who was four at the time, far smoother for him. And again, I think he's maybe like your son, doesn't remember that time being together.

And with my new wife, we got together about six years ago. She had two younger children, and they definitely have a great relationship with their dad. But I feel that like getting into that relationship when they were five years old, eight years old, that made it easier for me to become more part of their life and being that like people like to call bonus dad, not just stepdad. Yeah. And I, you know, it's taken time, but I know they love me and I,

I know they trust me. And so there's, there's certain things to take away from all of that. Sure. Well, being a step parent is a big responsibility that I hope step parents or new step parents out there take very seriously. This isn't just an obstacle in your house to your happiness. This is someone that you should have. You should do everything that you can to kind of nurture and help.

It's like that has to be part of the relationship. And talking about age, you know, where you were saying there were what, eight, nine? I think when I, I mean, I've known them longer, just by circumstance, but in relationship sense it was probably four and eight at the time. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So a good amount of time to, to kind of teach and develop and, and, um, kind of build a relationship and where it was different for me is my mom remarried when I was 18. So I thought I was an adult,

a man living in a house with this other gentleman, and it was not pretty for a long time. Now, many years later, he and I have a great relationship and a really good understanding, and luckily we were both open and continued to talk, though we took some breaks. But yeah, that's not an easy way to do it. No. And like I said, luckily for me, in my experience with my own parents' divorce, I never had to go through that. Now, my dad did go through a series of wives afterwards that were always interesting, and I've got a great stepmom now, and I love her to pieces. Oh, that's great. Yeah. But my mom never really jumped back onto that horse.

She dated a few times, but there was never even the concept of getting remarried because she loved my dad so much. Yeah. There's always some sadness there. Well, at least you didn't get a wicked stepmother. That can be a real headache. Oh, my stepmom is fantastic. Now, talking about wicked people, they talk, you know,

Jordan often talks about like people they talk, you know Jordan often talks about like the psychopaths, right? He likes the extreme cases when he's making Making a lot of his points like pulls out words like parasite and you know lumps people in these categories, which I Don't do myself too much. I think it's a bit too extreme and But when you're making a I guess a philosophical point, it's probably pretty useful Well, I think that also speaks to some of the controversies that have followed him Because being in his position as a mental health professional, it's a position of power Hmm, and the things that you say carry a lot of weight. Like you mentioned him having these big talks to people

and like, they're gonna hear that and they go parasites, psychopaths. This guy's saying it, I can say it. So it can be dangerous in a sense. Well, especially because like his job, our job, is diagnosing, which is like an official stamp for a period of time on a person. When you're doing it with groups, and then even if he's saying it broadly,

but then implies that a certain set of protesters are psychopaths, you know? Just by making a point. Who knows what he would say? The people that key Tesla's or whatever he would, you know, categorize. Well, then all of a sudden it really is like pathologizing them, like diagnosing that group. Right. In one big swoop. Yeah, one big swoop. Just check all the boxes.

Never talk to any of them. Select all. And this thing about like the psychopaths online, I liked what he was saying though about, you know, in regular life, you know, in like social interaction life, in the tribal sense, community, the rest of it, he was saying that the strong men that, strong men that, that are, I guess, kind, they kind of keep the psychopaths at bay. They will, weaker people, they can just be,

it's just like, stop doing this. Like it's, it's just kind of how the system orients itself most of the time. Yeah, an idea of balance. It's something like that. Yeah. But whereas when you're online, you're hidden, no one knows who you are. And then he said that they're good at finding each other too, because it's like you're just

looking for like maybe really hateful speech or whatever. And they find their little nasty groups. And then things kind of grow and swell from that. But yeah, I wonder what your thoughts were on. I mean, it's definitely more prevalent now. You and I both grew up in an era without social media, without online forums. If we wanted to have a discussion with like-minded people

or any other people, we were at the mall. We're at the movie theater. We're at the bowling alley. It was a little bit different. But now, like you said, you can go online. You can search Reddit. You can search different Discord, other forums, and find what it is that you're looking for.

And then latch onto it, and then take away from it, add to it. The word incel just keeps popping in my head. You know, when you talk about like when he mentions weak, weak men. And that's been a big thing for the last, what, eight years. And I can't remember the name of the documentary I just watched, but it was kind of about the evolution of all that. Of like the incels and their community.

Do you think that they reinforce each other? Oh yeah, they validate each other. Okay. Totally. Yeah. And what is a clear definite? Could you define incel? Incelibate? Like voluntary or involuntary, not voluntary,

involuntary celibacy. Where they have, they might have a particular problem Involuntary, not voluntary, involuntary celibacy. Where they have, they might have a particular problem with relationships. Okay. Male, female, you name it. Like kind of feeling outcast because they didn't, you know, they got maybe rejected at one point by someone that they were interested in.

So then where are my friends? Oh, my friends are online. And I'll go, you know, get what I need from them. Right. And the assumption is that rejection and kind of outcasting and inability to therefore mate in a sense, builds a lot of resentment, anger probably, being withdrawn. Yeah, twisted idea around love and relationships. Right. Nasty. Yeah. It's a tough one. I mean, that's a tough one because dating is just hard for all people and young people especially. And it's like to think that you're not gonna have some really difficult relationships,

especially young, when you're new to it all. And therefore, who knows where that resentment goes, how you're able to process it. Yeah, I mean, I still see it today. I work with clients that either involuntary or voluntarily are still virgins. And as therapists, we talk about treatment goals. And there's been a few times where I definitely

include my clients in that process of creating the goals that they want to work towards. And often, it's I want to be in a relationship, I no longer want to be a virgin. And I was like, well, you know, that's something I can't like just check off for you, but I can help you work towards achieving that goal. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. You can't flow into Amsterdam. Right. Yeah. For the weekend. Yeah. It's about self-confidence. It's about self-esteem, body issues. It can be a lot of things that have kept them from achieving that goal, even into their 40s. But there are actionable steps.

Yeah. And that's where people should, you know, get a little bit of hope. Like if you are stuck in that kind of cycle, there definitely are actionable steps that will improve your chances, yeah and Doing the same thing and getting more resentful is not gonna it's not gonna help anything. No, and I'm sure it doesn't feel good Yeah well

That's therapy for sure. It's definitely therapy. He did jump a bit into environmental issues. He did it last time. It created a bunch of controversy. I think even he lost his license as the therapist in Canada because of it. He did not lose his license. He was reprimanded and asked to take classes on social media presence. Oh, that's right. Yeah. So with a social media expert, right, which he and I think many people

can say, what the heck is that? Yeah, what is that? But no, that is a common misconception. Because when I did kind of do my own ascertainments about Jordan Peterson, people are like, oh, the guy that lost his license in Canada. It's like the first thing people say. But then honestly, that's what I thought it was. Yeah. A quick, you know, internet search. And, you know, I debunked that right away. But like the basically Canada's Board of Health was aware there was complaints, there was criticism, and their action was, so hey, you know, you need to be very mindful about what you're doing online, what you're doing in terms of social media presence, and here's what we'd like you

to do. Like, it's just like an anger management course, but for like, what you should and should not say when you are a guest on a podcast or you're in front of a bunch of people or you're posting to various platforms. Because you do technically represent the license, right? Right. I mean, and same rules need to apply. That's a good question. We're under the same rules as him.

I think the grey area though is like the exposure. So there's like, I don't know how it works, but I'm sure there's, you have to get a certain amount of complaints before it's kind of flagged. And then there's a review and then they check on it at a local level, like where we are in a small town, five complaints over a year, it's significant. Well, there's also the severity of the complaint. True, true.

The actionable ones immediately in our state with other colleagues and peers would be sexual misconduct is gonna flag you right away. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, and you're gonna, there's gonna be an investigation immediately. But if it's just more on the minor scope, you're right. It might take a couple complaints before even anything's done.

But with Canada and Jordan Peterson, he's definitely now on their radar. Like, they, this might not just end here. And I, one of the articles I did read following this, this podcast appearance was it just brought it back to the forefront with them. And one of the articles I did read following this podcast appearance was it just brought it back to the forefront with them. So like, oh, we need to keep the magnifying glass on him because he may or may not have learned from these courses that he was required to take. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a good point. But the difficulty is when millions of people listen to you speak, I mean We're talking tiny percentages of people could need to get mad and start complaining right and That's gonna add up real quick. But that's the dance, right? I mean technically other than But that's the dance, right? I mean, technically, other than the principle of it, he doesn't really need the license.

I mean, he makes millions of dollars lecturing and it's not gonna damage his credibility. And I don't think Dr. Phil's currently licensed anywhere. But does he need it? No. What kind of doctor is Dr. Phil? He's also, I believe he's either a psychiatrist or a psychologist. Oh, he is?

And I believe he was licensed in California. Like I said, I don't think he is now, but I know he was. But it wasn't something that he actively got it taken away either. But we are a public figure and that's what we're looking at with like Jordan Peterson in the United States and Canada globally, I suppose You are gonna have a little bit more attention on yourself. Yeah, especially if you're still practicing And like I said, I don't know but like if he still is but we definitely know he's out there and he's his voice is being heard Mm-hmm

Yeah, and he's not just a podcaster. He is this doctor of psychology. He represents this. And, you know, there are rules to follow within. And I'm not saying I agree entirely with that Canadian system as well. But I think there's an argument on both sides. I don't dislike that he's But I think there's an argument on both sides. I don't dislike that he's being stubborn and trying to fight it and refusing to take the course. It's, I'd be annoyed. Somebody sent me to social media training with a quote unquote expert. They would, I would really have to feel like they were an expert before I listen to them.

Well, I mean, I, when I played soccer in college, I got one too many red cards. And if I wanted to remain on the team, remain at my university, I had to take anger management courses. Oh, hilarious. But like, I understand it. Like, there's gonna be a consequence. And like you said, does it matter to him?

Like if he did lose his license, would it matter? I don't really think so. Cause I don't know how much of his own personal income is based off personal practice. A zero. Right. And it's all the social media, the tours, the talks. Books.

Books. Parkas. Yeah, books is a big one, yeah. Yeah. Anger management. I can't imagine you having to go to an a management class 18 year old me is very different than me now

Well, and also being competitive in sport is also very different than just being an angry person as well Right, so that that's a definite distinction But back to the climate thing. I don't know what his motivation is for leaning into this type of talk. Like he talks about, okay so it's more CO2 now because of the carbon emissions. The world is 20% greener. I don't know how to verify that but let's assume it's true just for the sake of it. That sounds pretty good, right? You want it more green. It is getting hotter. Is it that, you know, I don't know what the point is

he's trying to make. Is he just trying to say, hey, you know, it's a waste of our energy. It's a distraction, a waste of our time to even try and be environmentally conscious. Is his point that we're maybe actually not getting good information. I don't know.

That topic took me off guard too when I was listening to the episode and I was like, why is this coming up with a psychologist? Yeah. You know, it's just like, okay. So then it like then it like me forming an opinion about him To me that kind of undermines his own credibility Like if I'm gonna come on here and talk about therapy and behavioral health, I'm not gonna slip in How I feel about auto mechanics. Yeah, you know or like engines and cars It says it's weird. It would be a weird thing for me to get into but like with climate change

I don't know. Maybe it's just low, low hanging fruit right now. With our current administration, I definitely believe in climate change. I believe in science. And, you know, being the ages that we are and being well traveled, we've definitely been to places in the 80s that had smog hanging over a city. And then you travel to it now and there's nothing, it's clean air. Yeah, yeah, LA, perfect example.

Salt Lake City, Pittsburgh, Chicago. I remember the first time I flew into Salt Lake City and I was like, man, it was when I was younger. I was like, this would be a very pretty town if there wasn't this weird smog hanging over this city. And then, yeah, since I've traveled back a few times over the last few years, it's gorgeous. So whatever impact that they've done environmentally, changing laws, fuel efficiency, emissions checking,

things like that, factory output. It's working. I believe it's working. Yeah, it's regulation a lot around catalytic converters, believe it or not. They just made them much better, and most of the emissions now are, I mean, they're like 10 times cleaner. It's like more like CO2 rather than carbon monoxide, which is like the nasty one, right? Still a lot of brake dust and tire Wearing down going on. I mean living in cities still wears you out Like not not great, but you're right. It's a huge difference and going back even further

I mean the Industrial Revolution everything was coal you go to Build places in Ohio still, they have old churches and they're black on the outside. And it's soot. And like the stone underneath is white. And it was just how it was like everywhere. Yeah. I mean, much worse.

And then this all comes down to also like just being knowledgeable about a topic. Climate change doesn't mean that like it's going to get hotter. Climate change is, you know, the Earth goes through a natural progression. Flying through orbit, spinning around, our proximity to the Sun. There's natural climate change that occurs. Now, if we accelerate that with the pollution and things like that, that's on us. You know, but like there's patterns and like he's referencing these models and doubt around it. Well, there's science and facts to back it up.

We've got data to look at. We know when ice ages occurred. We know when, you know, weather changes. Here in Montana, we've had a couple odd winters lately. Last year was very mild, and this one that we just came out of, or still kind of in, was more of a typical winter, right? And we see it, you know? And there's times, you know, that I've been here and it's been colder in the Southeast than it's been here.

This is what climate change looks like. Right. And I think the point that you're highlighting is it's in flux anyway, and there are billions of variables. It's very, very complicated. So maybe no one has the clear answer. And again, being a psychologist, I'm making this a big point to millions of people. I just,

if he was going to tie it into something to do with psychology, I think that there would be value there. But it's, it's just a little tricky to do. It's like if I go on a rant about creatine, I could like creatine, I could be like, I've taken it, it's really good. But if I'm just like hammering you of all these facts and you're like, dude, you're not like a creatine scientist, like relax, maybe for everyone it doesn't work great,

or, you know, I don't know. Well, if there was a good topic or like something to come out of his climate change was the addressing poverty. Like the it's more likely that people with more substantial wealth can afford to have a cleaner environmental impact than someone who's below the poverty line, right? So I thought that was one of the nicer things to come out of that discussion. Like, it's something that needs to be addressed. Yeah, and then you're right, that was more valid

because that led into him talking about reducing energy costs kind of the world over, making energy as cheap as possible because that seems to be like one of the primary factors for pulling people out of poverty and creating a system around that to where like we prioritize that over just profits. That sounds great. Yeah. I like that idea.

We need a bunch of nuclear power stations, I think I don't know how it works Andrew Tate let's finish up. Well, I don't know if we'll finish up with that, but Andrew Tate let's jump on to him massively polarizing figure You know Jordan gives the example of like what you know, why do people like him and he's like well, it's better to be him than an incel well You know, is it better? For everyone to be him. Maybe not but for the individual and how they feel about themselves

Probably is that's a reasonable statement Well, I don't have a lot of opinions on Andrew Tate. I do like his first name. That's a pretty good name. Andy Tate. But like I said, I mean, this goes back to why do we invest in Jordan Peterson's take on things? How much validity and how much gospel do we put into it? And I say gospel is very much pun intended when it comes to yeah, Peterson.

He loves that. Now that's a good point. Yeah, it's like he's built credibility around his lectures and you know, his online presence, his books, we all you know, we know he has a lot of experience. He's a doctor that always helps. Um, the resume is like builds itself and he connects to big players in the game, like Rogan, keep them around and keep talking with him. Relevancy. Mm hmm. For sure. And, you know, but why, why are so many people drawn to Andrew Tate?

I mean, there are so many young men that are just like, he's the best, even with all the controversy that he's had. I mean, which should raise some questions of concern, you know, again, innocent till proven guilty stuff, but it's like building some kind of long-distance rapport with someone that you don't really know other than what is available on the media Do they make a connection there do they see themselves in Andrew Tate or do they want to see themselves as Andrew Tate? I think that's more of what it is. You know he looks confident. He's handsome. He's clever He's got a good name Great name. He He's tough, you know, I mean he was a world champion kickboxer makes tons of money

You know, he's got women around him all the time. It's like that whole on a yacht type thing, yeah, and Any hammers people he hammersers them hard, meaning, you know, systems, countries, tax laws, talks about the matrix all the time. Oh, you're stuck. You're stuck and you can get out and you can be free. And it like for people that are stuck or feel stuck, like even to have any idea of where you could go is like somewhat hopeful.

Yeah, is he offering the blue and the red pill? Definitely. Yeah, there is no spoon. Great movie. I just watched that. It holds up. It holds up. Kind of freaks me out. I'm like maybe maybe the end of the 90s was the peak of civilization. I've actually listened to a couple podcasts on that rather recently where, like, are we stuck in 1999? Right. Right. Yeah.

It's kind of frightening, some of the points they bring up. Dude, do you know one of the weirdest coincidences from that movie? You know when he gets interrogated at the beginning? And he's like, Mr. Anderson. And he like opens the folder all slow and that guy's so good, Mr. Smith. Hugo Weaving. Yeah, brilliant. And he's like doing the interrogation thing, he has all the documents. Neo's passport expires September 11th, 2001.

I did not notice that detail. Well, it's hard to know that you would see it on there, but you can Google it. They bring it up. Now, obviously, just a coincidence. But in the framework of that movie and talking about how they picked that simulation, because that was the height of human civilization,

and everything after that, implying shortly after that changed and was never quite the same. A reasonable marking point in history would be 9-11. Right. Right. Right. And it's like, oh, that's when he can no longer travel. Think about that. That's what that means. Yeah. I don't know. I like those things. I do too. I like Easter eggs of those levels and like putting some thought to it.

It's fun. It's fun. Mr. Anderson. So good, dude. And they even the fights, all the special effects hold up. I mean, it's a pretty old movie now. Yeah. And it still looks so tight.

I think it was one, when DVDs came out, it was one of the first five DVDs I bought. Sick. Because I had to have it. That was such an upgrade from VHS. I mean, night and day. I couldn't believe how clear it was. Yeah.

I was just like, we are moving into a beautiful future. A funny story about the Matrix run there when they had the first trilogy. I was living in Georgia at the time and my wife at the time, we had just seen the third one come out. I can't remember the resurrection or whatever it was called. We were walking out of the theater and there was a couple behind us and the guy was just complaining about how that movie made absolutely no sense at all. He's like, I didn't get a bit of it. He threw in a lot of like, there's some cuss words in there too that I'm not going to say, but his wife then smacks him on the arm.

Well, I told you, you should have seen the first two. Oh, and I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah, of course it didn't make any sense The character development by that point is like 50 characters, right and You've got different timelines and yeah nonsense nonsense. Really? That's hilarious Alright, let's finish up with a point that you know hits home often the universities right and he

talks about the parasites in the universities and you know what he's really highlighting is like the wokeness how universities have moved in this very woke direction I mean universities have been a place of like liberalism for a long time and so I I don't know how new it is maybe it's maybe it's just more prevalent and Maybe there's just slightly more pressure towards conservative voices there

So it's creating maybe a bit of its own echo chamber, but what was your take on the parasite kind of idea? And what I mean by that specifically is, he's like implying that these people that are considered parasites exist, and then go find these groups that, you know, he's implying are at universities, and then they just kind of take it over

because of the influence, power, and money that universities have. Well, to me, the interesting part of that is, obviously, he had to have attended university to get to where he is. Right. And looking at his age, it's gonna be his peers that are in charge

of universities now, in his age frame. They're the deans, they're the presidents, they're the people that are fostering what he's claiming is this environment that is conducive to parasites. So it's an interesting take. It's like, I'm never going to bad mouth university systems. We live in a college town. I love what the university does for our city and for the culture here. And I just, I can't agree with it that it's just too much of a drastic take

to say that like the universities are the ones that are making this happen. Mm, yeah. And being in the environment of the university, it is about growth, it's about education. And it's about letting. It's about education. And it's about letting young people find themselves. And I didn't mean to just say young people, but like non-traditional students too. Some people may not be ready at a traditional age, but this is growth.

This is how we become who we become. Being out there for most people, it's their first time on their own. Maybe on their own in a new city. Like finding yourself in like, being that person that is in charge of your own life instead of having a mom or a dad saying, hey, time to get up. You're on your own now.

You've got to get to class. You've got to figure it out. So I have such a romantic ideal around universities and just I can't agree with any of that that he said. Yeah, it's almost like he's implying and many people that have this criticism that the influence is too strong in one direction. It's like these young naive students go to this place

and then they get indoctrinated by this way of thinking and then bring it into the landscape of careers and corporate stuff. And then it leads to the DEI and affirmative action job placement, blah, blah, blah. Right. Well, is it easy to point the figure when you're not the one involved? If he wants change in university systems, then hey, go apply for some jobs. Go be a dean somewhere. Go be a professor even. If you think that-

Well, he used to teach at Harvard. Yeah. That makes it even more bizarre to me. Right. Right? But if he, your word there was used to, and he's seeing this change now, like, we'll go back. Yeah. You got the experience.

Well, he's opening the Peterson University. Well, there you go. I guess he is doing something. It's a separate university idea that's not quite accredited, but maybe will be one day. with something. Separate university idea that's not quite accredited, but maybe will be one day. The thing for me is like, would you describe going to school,

your graduate school in therapy as like fairly woke program in the sense of what the traditional term of wokeness is. I mean, we're taught to be quite open and non-judgmental to everybody. It's a big part of what it is. So I kind of see it as a very woke degree. And regardless of my thoughts on wokeness, I don't feel pressured in my degree. As one of the few men in my program, I don't feel like that I've been judged or pressured or I'm sure some of my actions have helped. They don't just like storm into the room like Andrew Tate, obviously, but you know, that's

just more me being aware of my presence. Well, in your program, did they talk to you at all about being an agent of change? Yes. Yes, so that's probably the closest thing I can think of where an instructor or professor wants you to take this position and this education very seriously and affect change in your community, in your state, in your country, wherever you land.

But I don't think it was like this militant call to arms either, it's like you choose social workers, counselors, behavioral specialists, case workers. There's a reason why people choose these professions and it's not nefarious. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And the bottom line is we want to help people

and that's it. So you take what you want from what, whatever a professor might say to you. I've had some radical professors, I've had some idiot professors, I've had some idiot professors. I had this one guy who wanted me to stay after class so he could show me his new ink. And I'm like, this is inappropriate by, you know. His new, oh, his tattoo?

Tattoos, I mean. Oh, his deal. Literally taking off his shirt to show me his new chess piece. But now, were they trying to indoctrinate me into anything? I don't think so. But that's where it comes into this, you know, growth development, like, you choose what you want to believe in, in that aspect. And said, I don't ever like to

get into discussions about being woke. And there's good points, there's bad points. But generalizing it, I don't think it's good either. And it's also just one influential factor of many. Like your friend group is not necessarily like maybe yeah, maybe your friend group does go to that school, but you could still have a job. You still have internet access. You still can read newspapers. There's lots of different angles to go down.

And the idea is that you will hopefully identify ways of thinking and behavior that don't really fit with you, that you don't like, and then you'll say, oh, I choose not to be a part of this. Yeah, I mean, I think it would fit more in a timeframe of anything pre-1990s and pre-the internet, where you are on an island at your university or college. Yeah, that's more dangerous.

Yeah, and you've got this one professor who's just like, oh, we gotta storm the Capitol, or we gotta do this, or we gotta do that, where you're not having that ability to research and find out for yourself, like what you really wanna follow and what path you wanna go down. Yeah, that's a good point. And that's what I wonder is like,

a lot of people are making it out today, like this is the worst it could be. They've finally just fallen off. And I'm like, is it because we've forgotten what it was like in other generations? Like what were the universities like in the 70s? Right. Like when it came to protests and radical thinking and things that, you know, all the grown-ups didn't like about it. It's like, I don't know. I don't know if it was that much difference and therefore if it's as much of a concern as people make out. And I mean I'm kind of

basing that off the fact that I'm just, I'm just, went through a graduate program. Right. At a school it's, you know, there's, it is reasonable to say there's is reasonable to say is a pretty liberal Left-wing woke ish degree program and I'm like, yeah, it was fine. Yeah, it was just fine There were different people in there. There were plenty of people that I'm like, I don't know if I'm that close to that person Do you think it fundamentally changed you? It did in the sense of preparing me for the career. Of course. And because of the nature of this degree, it's not like they're teaching me math. Like they're actually trying to teach me ways of thinking and behaving and non-judgment. It's like all of that's very positive.

Do you feel like you had significant empathy before you took your graduate program? Yes, but I don't think I expressed it or showed it as well as I can now. So you feel like that your program at least like helped foster and grow that empathy in terms of like going into this profession? I think so. Okay. Yeah. Because that's where it comes down to.

I think that there's some people believe that this empathy or these thoughts or these ideals are just preached to you in programs at universities. And no, most people have it already. But being in mental health and behavioral health, like you definitely need a lot of empathy. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think it's important that you that you show to others that you have it instead of just feeling it and them not knowing. Yeah. Well, and I think it's important that you, that you show to others that you have it instead of just feeling it and them not knowing. Right. A big part of that change is, you know, the eye contact, the leaning in the not waiting for your turn to talk type of things,

being a listener. That's, you know, those elements have, have been really helpful. Yeah. Um, but no, I'm the same person. Yeah. I didn't get out being nicer, I'm afraid. Right. I just maybe seem a bit nicer. The university made you nicer. It's a good review. I took anger management 101, you know.

I kind of want to sit in one of those classes. I want to see what it's about. I want to say mine at least involved a Kermit the Frog puppet that I had to tell Kermit how I felt about my emotions at the moment. Oh dear Lord, no. Yeah, so that was definitely, I still have that puppet to this day.

I don't need him, but he's there. That is brilliant. You should bring that out in sessions sometime. Be like, tell me about your feelings and just do the voice. Oh well, Andy, you know, I think you're taking this a little bit too far. Love it. Well, on that note, thank you, Andy, for joining me today. And yeah, guys, go check out the Jordan Peterson pod. Let us know what you think. Send us emails, questions, emails, questions, anything that we missed that you thought was relevant. And otherwise, we'll talk to you guys next week.