Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 453 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Beth Shapiro

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

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Hey guys and welcome to another episode of the Joe Rogan experience review this week. We are reviewing Beth Shapiro no relation to Ben Bam yeah She would speak quicker Damn. Yeah, she would speak quicker Yeah Joined this week we got Sean on the on the pod. Hello again everyone. Thanks for being talking about evolution and DNA and

not People dying. Yeah. I'm trying to give you more positive reviews. Yes today I feel like you've had the short list or the short straw for a while on this one No, I'm excited. This this was a good episode. Honestly, I thought it was really good It was a big departure from I think a lot of things that I know about Which I found really interesting. Yeah super interesting stuff. I mean, this is literally Jurassic Park Yeah in real life Yeah, it always seems to not end well, but I'm hopeful. That's just a movie, dude. Yeah. It's a movie. I'm sure we could keep those dinosaurs under wraps. Maybe. Maybe. You know, they can't bring the dinosaurs back, can they? Because fossils, there's no DNA in there.

I don't know. I think that they don't have the desire to. I don't know. I think that they don't have the desire to. Gah, get off. Well, it sounded. Of course they do. I mean, yeah, it would be cool to have an amusement park with dinosaurs. But I think a lot of what she was saying

was that they're trying to bring back old extinct animals. And some of them reintroduce them into the population to kind of balance the ecosystem. Because I mean, with invasive species and just our general tendencies to fuck up the ecosystem, we've done a number of terrible things. And I guess we're trying to fix it with this technology. Yeah.

However, every time we've reintroduced some, or not reintroduced, but introduced something new, which they talked about on the pod, you know, like taking whatever, cats or rabbits or whatever we did over in Australia, everything got completely out of whack. So somehow we think bringing a wooly mammoth back is going to be just fine. I don't know how that's going to work. It seems. Yeah.

It's interesting when they, uh, I don't know a lot about going to work. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know a lot about this. There are a lot more people that are way more smart about this. But I do know when they brought back wolves to Yellowstone, it fucked up the level of water in the rivers. And they were like, we don't know why this happened. But it was like they were somehow going in there and either eating something

or just mess with the ecosystem and it had like effects that we just didn't understand. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it has effects. Yeah. You know, how are they going to figure that out? Are they going to have like some council of ecologists that are just like sitting around running scenarios like, oh I'm sure the sabre-toothed tiger do just fine in this area. Yeah. And they're like what? No. Everyone's getting eaten. Terrible idea. Well Beth is PhD evolutionary molecular biologist, chief science officer at Colossal Biosciences, author of Life As We Made It, How 50,000 Years of Human Innovation Refined and Redefined Nature. Interesting names. Specializing in ancient DNA and de-extinction projects. That's pretty cool. That's, I guess what they're calling this de extinction. Yeah.

The extinction. Yeah. She was a good guest. Honestly, I really enjoyed her. She was a good storyteller and you can tell she has a lot of passion for what she does. Oh, just about. Yeah. Just everything she talked about was she's very excited. Yeah. She had a good sense of humor too. She was, you know, silly enough. She didn't sound like she's taken herself super serious in this. I mean, you know, she's a serious person and a scientist, but she was having fun on there. It was a fun conversation. It wasn't like a stuffy lecture. You know, Oh, I'm so smart. And look at my, look at all my knowledge. And she wasn't like a't like an awkward scientist.

Sometimes Joe has people on that are very, very, very smart and great at what they do, but they're not as good at like the conversation side and social skills. A bit of a nerd alert. Yeah, yeah, that can happen sometimes, but she was great, honestly. Yeah. And I mean, they've already brought the dire wolf back, which is nuts.

Yeah. So these wolves are supposed to grow up to be quite a lot bigger than regular wolves. Yeah, and they look different. They're white. They're white as snow. Yeah, that's an interesting one. Yeah, it sounds like they're not going to release those.

They're just going to keep them there. Even reproducing them, she was like, no, we don't plan on doing that. like they're not going to release those they're just gonna keep them there even reproducing them she was like no we don't we don't plan on doing that like they're in separate areas you know we keep them contained and monitored now yeah yeah that's the thing they're they're wolves yeah you wait till Elon buys the company he's like half bear half man. You're like, that's too many halves, Elon. Let's do it. Fire it into space.

Yeah, so basically they take DNA from ancient remains. So like basically Ice Age stuff. I guess they can get stuff from 10,000 years old, 20,000, just these remnants. Yeah, they can extract DNA from bones. Sick. Of dead people, or not people, but animals. Well, they could do people.

Also people, yeah. They don't want to do that. No, they don't have any plans of bringing back Neanderthals or. No. China's already doing it. Yeah. They've done it. They're doing human.

I can just hear, in the back of my head, Alex Jones his voice screaming. I'm making human hybrids The frogs are gay you're like that's unrelated Alex. I also just a side point on Alex Jones I don't know if this was real, but on Spotify they have the comment section now Yeah, and the first comment and most liked one was from Alex Jones, and it said let me be back on the podcast Oh brilliant. I think I think even under that Tucker wrote I'll come on with Alex That will be legendary a powerhouse of conspiracy the one with Tim Dillon and Alex Jones is just pure gold Tim Dillon just had to be there. He was like, let me experience this.

I would want to be there too. Yeah, I mean, that's just too entertaining in a lot of ways. I mean, I wonder if he will have Alex back on. Maybe he'll kind of let some of the frustration and hate die down. I mean, there's still always going to be people very, very mad at Alex Jones. Um, but maybe over time, give him a few nine 11 style predictions. Again, he might win some favor and you know, he stopped drinking. He's lost some weight. He's not saying, well, dare I say as crazy shit, I'm sure he's pretty close to it, but he's not maybe screaming as loud. Yeah. And who knows? I mean, I think he'll be back on.

Hopefully. He's too just, those ones are just so popular. Yeah. I mean, Joe doesn't really do it for like that, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt. Yeah. Sure doesn't hurt. Well, I'm sure for Joe, it's just probably entertaining as well. Right. Alright so back to... Back to the science shit.

This Beth lady. Good old Beth. They were talking about Neanderthal DNA. So most humans have 2 to 5 percent. So they didn't really die out per se. We just kind of like bread them out maybe. Oh really? Is what it seems like. Yeah. If we have some of their DNA, I wonder what bits, what was beneficial. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, honestly like-

I mean, it must've made us more effective because one, we still carry that DNA and there doesn't seem to be any humans with only human DNA. Yeah. So there's no like pure humans in the homo sapien form. Yeah. It's like when we've a little bit mixed. Yeah. And I wonder like, I don't know about this topic, but how much do we really know about Neanderthals? I mean, that was a long time ago. Yeah. It'd be interesting to talk to someone

and figure out what were their patterns of life like? What kind of things do we inherit from them? I imagine a lot of our just intuitive instincts are probably handed down from those times, like the fear of falling, stuff like that. I bet a lot of that. No doubt. I feel a lot of times whenever I have a campfire

I don't know if you've ever had this feeling but you know, you're looking at the campfire and you're just like wow We must have been doing this for I don't know however long we've been alive It feels like there's some primitive thing going on whenever you look into a campfire. It certainly feels very familiar. Yeah, and There's something very comforting and kind of magical about it. It's like I could you can stare at a campfire as long as you would watch a TV show almost. Yeah. And it's just fire. It's entertaining for whatever reason. Yeah, or just maybe it's just more of a comforting thing, you know.

I mean that might be what TV is as well, just comforting. But there seems to be something very special happening when you're around a campfire for sure. I believe that. Yeah. But I mean, this podcast is brought to you by Hydro. Warm weather hits and suddenly I'm juggling vacations, visitors and zero routine. Hydro brings me back to that structure so I can get quick, efficient workouts that keep me feeling grounded no matter what my calendar looks like. Hydro is kind of my secret weapon for a full body workout.

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Oh, like anything, we'd learn a lot, but there's some bigger ethical concerns. Yeah. You know, it's like, like she was saying, like they didn't give their permission to be brought back. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, listen, I don't want to make that decision. I'm happy with whatever ethical decisions are made by the body of ethics that come up with this stuff.

But I'd be super curious to meet at Neanderthal. Like if they wanted to bring one back, I'd be like, well, I wasn't to do with this, but I'll go check him out. Yeah. See how strong he is. Imagine if they're like, they can just like bench like an extra 50% more than everyone. Probably. Just super strong. I think if you look at a lot of monkeys that are still alive now, their strength is like different than ours. Their muscles are, I think, in some cases, more compact.

And so they have like much better strength to weight ratio than us Particularly in their arms and shoulders like swinging and stuff. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's um It's interesting but then in some ways, you know, we're way more advanced than they are Well, yeah, we build all the cool shit. Yeah, we just make cages and put them inside They're kind of kind of outdone. But if you throw me into a jungle and a monkey, the monkey's gonna do a lot better than I am.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's an interesting one because, you know, like reintroducing them into areas where we have had overpopulation of certain species as a way to like balance that, you know like I imagine that there is a lot of discussion about that because you know a Lot of times people have done that before thinking that it's gonna work out one way and then it completely backfires Mm-hmm, like they were talking about in the show they were talking about

What did they call them? They call they were talking about in the show, they were talking about, what did they call them? They were talking about bringing in hippopotamuses to this specific lake, because they brought a native plant, and it overgrew and was clogging shipping vessel routes and was becoming a huge problem. And they called them Lake Cow Bacon. Right. And it almost went through.

It went into the government government and then they just like tossed it aside. But yeah, who was that Jackson or Adams or Jefferson? Maybe Roosevelt out of Karen. Yeah, one of them. Yeah. They say it in the podcast. I can't remember who, but how wild is that? Yeah, we could be, we could have a bunch of lakes with hippos in the US. Not great. Not ideal. I mean, we have alligators, but true. And they fight each other in Africa US right now. That would be terrifying. Not great. Not ideal. I mean, we have alligators, but. It's true. And they fight each other in Africa, right? I think, yeah, I mean, alligators do fight each other.

I think crocodiles are. No, no, I mean hippos and alligators. Oh, yeah. They get after it. Hippos are super territorial and aggressive. They're very dangerous. Yeah, they're very dangerous. And their jaws are massive.

Have you ever seen one eat a watermelon? Giant one? A video, not in person. I would love to see a hippopotamus in person. I'd like to feed him watermelon. Yeah, throw a watermelon. It's almost as satisfying as watching those YouTube videos where the press just squashes different things.

Oh, yep, hydraulic press. I don't know why that's so interesting, but it's kind of like that, but with animals. Yeah. Pretty good. But we're not gonna squish them. They're gonna squish stuff. Mmm. Yeah. So the company is called Colossal, which is kind of a cool name for a company. And they aim to revive extinct species, like they did the direwolf. They want to bring back woolly mammoths pretty sure they're like quite close to this yeah they've replicated the entire genome of that's a lot of things yeah which is incredibly hard to

do especially if something isn't around nowadays because you're like piecing together parts of stuff and I think a lot of you helping a time oh yeah or if it is not now will certainly help a lot in the future. Imagine if AI got so good, we didn't even need the, we didn't even need the DNA to start with. We just literally describe the animal and it can write a code that mostly fills it out. That would be wild. that would be wild.

That would be wild. That's probably how we would have to bring dinosaurs back, if we did. Yeah. It's just like this wild trial and error event. I feel like it would not be exactly the same as what they were when they actually existed. Oh, yeah, no doubt.

A different version of them. Of course. And that's one thing I wonder, too. I mean, Joe mentions that there's a lot of controversy of people saying like with the dire wolf, it's not actually a dire wolf, it's just like genetically modified, but she's like, no, it literally is genetically modified to be a dire wolf. And so I wonder like, how, like, is it a hundred percent or like, are there some things that are not as like, what's the accuracy level on that?

Probably, I imagine pretty high if they've actually successfully done it. But yeah, is it exactly the way that it was before or is it just our interpretation of it? Well, I think what she was implying, and she didn't really say specifically, but I think it is simple, is if they take a DNA sample from it and run

that and create the whole genome, it matches exactly what they had from other dire wolves. Like that's the match. Okay. Yeah. So I guess what it's saying. Yeah. I mean, if you can completely replicate the entire genome, it would literally be, I would in every sense of it become what you're saying was Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's wild and then they're also talking potentially bringing back the

Longhorn bison. Oh, yeah, so interesting picture, uh Massive. I mean that yeah, Yeah, they showed it in the podcast, but it's a picture of the head and the antlers. And there's a scientist sitting or laying down next to it, like above the head, next to the antlers. And the antlers are still like, you've got like a foot or two on both sides.

Like, it's hard to tell how tall the person is. But even if it's just any sort of adult, like even a small adult, that thing is huge. Wow. Yeah. Massive. Yeah. I guess, I guess what we, what makes the most sense to do, like bring back and kind of incorporate into environments is animals similar to ones we already have. Yeah. Because then it's like, well, we kind of know what these other ones do, but saying that, where are they going to put wooly mammals? They can't put them where they them where the regular elephants are because that's much hotter. So we're literally just chucking them into the tundra and

we're like go ahead. Yeah and I wonder too because like when they existed the earth was different you know so how are they going to respond to like yeah the different temperatures, the difference in like glacial melting and things like that like their migration patterns are probably entirely different and I wonder too like When these animals are created Do they? They must already have all of the instincts that they did when they existed So like when you create that first breed of them Are they just actually when you release them into the, just going to assume the roles that they used to

have before like start hunting and doing the things that they used to do? Or are they going to have to be like trained to do that? It might take a couple of generations because you have to think that the, um, like babies learn from their parents to some degree. And the first ones are just gonna be born from, I guess, another elephant, and then gives birth to a mammoth. So maybe they could learn something that way, but it might take a few generations for their instincts

to kind of kick in and then teach their offspring. And I don't know, it's gonna be interesting to see how this plays out. But at the end of the the day I think it's safe to say we don't have any idea and probably these genetic scientists don't either. They're just like making stuff let's check it out if it sucks we won't do it anymore yeah and I think at least from what she said it sounds like they're approaching

this pretty cautiously, making sure that they're, for one, doing it successfully, but then also just not going wild and releasing them and thinking of the implications that would happen, like many steps ahead as to how this is going to work successfully, which that's an important thing. But yeah, the whole time, you know, in the back of my head, I'm like,

I could see a scenario where this goes terribly wrong again. You know, like, it kind of seems like, I'm hopeful that it doesn't, and I think more likely it won't, but you know, it kind of sounds like the beginning of a Jurassic Park movie, you know? Well, a lot of it, maybe it's just cause it's so new, and like, that's our only association with it,

but I could see it not going well. It's certainly gonna change things. Yeah. You know, I mean, just like the wolves being reintroduced, change the rivers. I mean, you're telling me wooly mammoths won't change some stuff? Yeah.

They're ginormous. They're gonna be eating a lot. They're gonna be doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah, those big old tusks Yeah You know, you're gonna find poachers now. I have a new breed of poachers On these things down trying to get their tusks. Yeah. Yeah, no doubt You know and it brings up some interesting questions like the the the best thing for me when I was listening to it

Is like, you know through my life they would like for a while it looked like whales were gonna go extinct certain ones because they were being just killed left and right and then there's other animals that are you know that have been wiped out within our lifetime as far as we could tell and The idea that we can bring those back is quite nice. Yeah, you know, that have been wiped out within our lifetime, as far as we could tell. And the idea that we can bring those back is quite nice. Yeah. I mean, there is also a natural balance to these things. It's like, this is kind of the evolution of existence. Like, stuff does die out.

But if humans have gotten in the way of it, if we've over over fished salmon and now there's none, it's nice to think, all right, now no one can have any salmon for a generation and then we clone some or whatever, bring them back. And there we go. We got salmon. You know, it's just like, that's a cool, interesting piece of technology. And it leans into the more they practice this stuff, the more they can edit other things that probably will be medically very useful to human beings.

Yeah. Yeah, it kind of seems like a nice safeguard for our irresponsible tendencies on Earth. You know, like they have a... I can't remember where it is. Some really safe place, but they have like a bank of a lot of seeds apparently. Oh, the seed bank in like, in the Arctic.

I guess I heard that it flooded not too long ago, a couple of years ago it flooded or something, but just the central idea of that, like having a backup in case shit gets wiped out, like we can still regrow stuff. It's just like a botanical garden in there now. Yeah, I don't know. There's corn everywhere.

Yeah. Just berries and they. There's corn everywhere. Yeah. Just berries, and they're like, oh shit. They got like hybrids growing everywhere. Well, hopefully it didn't leak. I heard that thing costs like millions of dollars. Oh, I'm sure. It's expensive, yeah. Get a good seal on that door.

Yeah. It's not rocket science. Yeah, couldn't afford sandbags. Somebody should be up. At least one guy should be up there just keeping an eye on that thing. Just give somebody a bucket. Get up there. Yep. Well, I mean, look, Shapiro kind of emphasizes responsible gene editing and kind of alluded to like a regulatory framework of sorts, which it sounds like needs to happen,

like an ecological conservation for de-extinction group. And I think that's pretty interesting because if you get like, if it's like a global style committee and they really sit there and decide which ones come back and when. It's just nice for us to really take the time and create like an ethical framework for things. Yeah. I think it sets a good precedent for a lot of the things that we like to lean into that could have a huge impact on us. One area where that's really not happening right now is AI. And that needs to be put together.

It's kind of a different subject. But it's good that people are taking the time to do this. Because it's almost too fun just randomly bringing animals back and chucking them out into the garden Yeah, I bet like I wonder on these people's free time. Do they just like ponder like oh, what should we bring back next? Mm-hmm. I would no doubt. What would you bring back if you could bring back anything? I don't know. I'm my Catalog of extinct animals is slim, but I of extinct animals is slim but I don't know probably something that's not going to like kill us so maybe some like nice cool exotic birds yeah not much of a

birder but you know going with kind of a safe option in that sense hmm you know I don't know yeah I don't know I wish I knew more about I don't know I mean I think the bear one would be kind of interesting, the short-faced bear. Yeah, but that seems like it would be a disaster. Sounds terrifying. Yeah. 12 feet.

Just couldn't wreck any other bear with one punch. Punk, dead. It's like the Thor of bears. Uh-huh. Super bears. Yeah. There's supposedly in the US like hundred two hundred thousand years ago like this giant bird that was like could straight-up eat people oh

really yep it didn't fly it was just like a big bird that like ran around on land oh damn and it was sure oh yeah like what kill that yeah birds are Yeah. Like what? Kill that. Yeah. Birds are terrifying. Yeah. Yeah, I mean. Like giant ones, I mean. Yeah, even nowadays, they have California condors, which can pick up deer. What?

Small deer and dogs, too. I know in a lot of areas where they have birds, I think California is a good place where, if you have a small dog, you've got to be careful because that thing is going to swoop in and steal your sparky. Yeah. Yeah, you've got to be careful.

But I don't know. I mean, I think there are a lot of examples of animals where it's like, clearly, we probably shouldn't bring that back. Right. Yeah. But I mean, What's that shark That's ginormous

Megalodon. Yeah, don't do that. Yeah Horrifying. Yeah, that one is terrifying. Yeah think about even great white sharks are terrifying They are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I you gotta wonder I mean you hear about the Disney cruise recently where the girl fell overboard, like the five-year-old? Oh, really? They sat her up on the railing to take a picture with the mom, and she fell off.

The dad, luckily enough, he was brave, so he jumped straight in. And for like 20 minutes, they were just in the water. Ship turned around pretty quick. Fair play to Disney ship. Good job. Yeah. But also, what a dumb ass. Like,

what are you doing putting your daughter on the rail? Yeah, they lived. That's good. But they could have easily not. There's a staggering amount of people that have died, not due to Disney, but around Disney, like Disney parks in Florida. There's a ton of people who get eaten by alligators. A baby got eaten by an alligator. That's happened a couple of times. Has it?

Yeah. And Disney's really good about covering that stuff up and not making it public. But having grown up in Florida, I know that that's a problem. And a lot of times, it's unfortunate because it's negligent parents. Parents are fucking dumb. There was this one case in

Orlando where these this kid was just like walking around not paying attention And the parents were like sitting at a bar and then the kid gets swooped by an alligator and dies what yeah Like by some water. Yeah. Yeah, the thing just jumps out and grabs it How can I know they can move around and go from like body of water to body of water so it's very difficult to like keep them out, but how can there not be like traps? Or just have like on-site hunters? Well, just yeah, it's challenging though because Disney is huge like the park itself in Florida is a massive area and there's a lot of bodies of water I mean Florida is essentially a big swamp, right?

And so it's built on top of a swamp. And so there are natural streams of water that have to go through certain areas. And I think it's just really hard for them to- It's just too much to manage. Yeah, I don't know if it's too much to manage, but it's very challenging. And I think probably there is not enough emphasis put on it,

like safety and stuff. But in recent years, they've really cracked down on it. And there's a lot of signs around water sources, like gators and stuff. Because they can't move very fast on land. But in the water, they can jump pretty high out of the water and grab shit. I mean, they can jump almost their full body length

out of the water But yeah It's like almost encourages everybody to go watch Peter Pan again, so you like yeah You're you know you're aware that out. Yeah dangerous And I mean just like anything like any massive tourist area you just get people that are just fucking dumb You know like every single year someone gets killed by a bison in Yellowstone because they think it's fluffy and they can pet it. You know, there's always going to be that certain percent. That's pretty stupid.

Don't do that, ladies and gentlemen. Don't you don't need to just Photoshop yourself in there with a bison if you want. You can do that now. AI will do it. Yeah, it's pretty easy. And then lie to your friends and say that also like you can in Yellowstone. Discover the magic of Bad MGM Casino where the excitement is always on deck! Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer! From Roulette to Blackjack, watch as a dealer hosts your table game and live chat with them

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or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor for your charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Most of the time, like almost every time I've been in Yellowstone, if you're in your car, you'll probably see them pretty close. Like they'll just walk next to your car.

Is that right? Like you're going to get close to them regardless. But people will like get out of their car and like walk up to them and just be dumb. But I guess getting back to what we were talking about originally, one thing I found interesting, which I had never really thought about a lot before, but a lot of the records that we have of animals like fossils and things, it's so hard for things to become fossilized successfully. So there's a lot of shit that we just don't know about. Like we just don't have the records of because it got destroyed.

Well that's one thing that makes actually aging human beings quite difficult, is relatively speaking as mammals, we have some of the least dense bones of mammals. Obviously birds have way less density. That's not a mammal though, right? It's not, no, it's a different thing. What is? Birds.

Those are birds, yeah. They lay eggs. But they have like hollowy bones so they can fly. But humans, homo sapiens, have relatively low density bones, so they don't fossilize well. And that's kind of a big part of it. So it's harder to, like we could have potentially been here a lot longer than we found, but it's tough

to date us because there's just not as many fossils. I mean, like they said, Joe, they said most things don't fossilize. Yeah. Right. So there's a lot of lost information. Who knows what the number is? Let's say it's like 0.1% of all things fossilize. You're working with a really small sample size of what existed. You know? Yeah, and you have to wonder like, well it's clear too because when you go to a lot of ancient areas where like they thought early humans lived, a lot of times there's just records of us like being there. There's no records of us actually like no physical records of us being there just what we've left so like paintings tools pottery things like

that it's like there's no actual humans here unless they're mummified or you know preserved in some way but a lot of times it's just like what we left you know yeah cuz that stuff preserves a lot better than our organic matter sure yeah like a bit of a building. And then nothing else. Yeah, but that's an interesting one, because, yeah, it's like how we have in our own minds some idea of how things went throughout history. But we have a lot of information that's just completely missing.

Yeah. And I don't know if we can ever really, truly fill in the blanks. And so much of it is guesswork built on top of other guesswork and assumptions, we might just be writing like a complete nonsense narrative. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah, and another thing that they talk about in the show is when a lot of times when new evidence

comes forth that challenges pre-existing evidence, it's oftentimes pushed away. And you know, you get a lot of arrogant scientists who don't support new evidence, it's oftentimes pushed away. And you get a lot of arrogant scientists who don't support new evidence because it challenges their own work. And so a lot of times, even if there is strong evidence against a certain case, the scientific community just kind of pushes it away because it doesn't fit with their own narrative.

Right. Yeah. I mean, you see that in archaeology all the time. A lot of pushback. I mean, it's in physics and all the rest of rest of it too the only difference there is with math and physics They can kind of prove it. Yeah, so they're like here you go. We prove this and it works. Yeah, so suck it Nuts. Yeah, but with archaeology you can't do that because it's so much of like well I mean, I guess that erosion could be seen as water erosion, but we think

it was wind because if it was water that would make it another 5,000 years old and that changes our whole story. So then you just get that tit for tat kind of back and forth, who even knows what the answer is. Yeah. And a lot of stubbornness. I mean, if somebody's written a book, or they've been lecturing on something for a long time,

they don't want to change that. Yeah, exactly. They don't want to be wrong, because then they look stupid. Well, it's also like they don't understand what you're talking about. And so if you're an expert on a certain field, you don't want new information coming in that you can't explain or doesn't

fit with what you're saying. That just completely dismantles everything that you've just tried to prove. Exactly. And yeah, I mean, it's just the same thing as like, you know, if we have a differing set of beliefs and I try to challenge your set of beliefs, you're going to naturally push back at mine because I'm challenging what you believe. I don't agree.

Exactly. Pushing back. Yeah. I'm challenging you. Yeah. No, it's a good point. I mean, we kind of have to do that naturally anyway, for like self preservation. If you were constantly open to every idea that anybody gave you, you'd be all over the map. Yeah. You'd probably be British.

We're going to edit that out. Okay. Okay. Well, it's interesting you say, I mean, you know, out. Okay? Okay. Well, it's interesting you say, I mean, you know, Beth brings up the challenges as an academia, she described it as like a scarcity mindset, right? So it's like foster's gatekeeping and resistance to controversial fields and ideas. And then there's funding competition, which is like heavily controlled. So why she likes the idea of podcasts, for example, kind of bypasses the traditional gatekeepers. Like you get in front of Rogan, you get to talk about whatever skeptics aren't able to push back in the same way. You get a huge audience and you know, you get people really interested in the stuff

that you're doing. Yeah. And you can go into detail, you know, I mean, the podcast was almost three hours long. And while they talked about a bunch of different things, you have the time to go into detail of how certain things work and processes and things like that. Whereas traditional news media, you don't. You don't have the time.

How are you going to explain all of the complicated things that she's describing in seven minutes? It's just not possible to do it properly. It'd be way too difficult. I mean, one quote that I had written down is she said, nobody knows what's going to be the next big thing. By shutting down things that are weird, you might be shutting down the things that's going to change everything.

And that's kind of interesting to think about, right? It's like, yeah, yeah, that's possible. Now, is changing everything good? I don't know. That sounds wild. But they could be positive kind of conservation things happening by bringing back certain animals. Yeah, and it's gonna take some careful consideration, but with time we'll get better at it, of course. Yeah, and I think it's interesting. I think it's important. We'll find out. Yeah, I liked, she was talking about, I guess she does some teaching and she did this exercise with some of her students, which was a debate and I Think debates are great for education, but the way that she did it was really smart because she assigned everyone different roles

So you had like politicians scientists, you know Like all these different people that would be brought up in conversation and have their own opinion on this kind of thing And then she randomly assigned whether they were pro or against the debate topic, which in this example was whether to reintroduce wolves in California. And then the kids can debate. They have time to prepare, and then they can debate on things. And she said that there was always a massive shift

before and after the debate of people usually going pro before and then kind of more leaning con at the end. But I thought it was just a great tool for education because then kids are looking in it with detail in a perspective that they didn't think already. You're putting yourself in someone else's shoes and imagining how they would react to it and Everyone else is doing that and so, you know, you can you can have really good conversations that way

Yeah And I think it's a good reminder too and this comes back to something Joe says all the time like you are not your ideas Yeah, right. You're a different thing and what I mean by that is take a point of view that you believe in and then force yourself for a week to understand and actually speak to the opposite of that viewpoint, right? So you're like pro something, but you tell yourself, no, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be con this against this

for the next week, come up with all the arguments to why that would be and really hammer it down. Just like she's saying with this little experiment, it changed those people's minds. And it kind of would. It's like your own propaganda that you're succumbing to, even though you decided to do the thing to yourself. And I think it would highlight how really, truly, loosely connected to your ideas you often are. Yeah. And I think a lot of times people have ideas that are based on like a pre-existing notion

that they have in their head, which is false, you know, and then their whole framework is built on false ideas. But yeah, and I think like that's a great example for how these kinds of conversations should happen. You need to have a bunch of people talking about them. You need to have people examining it from different angles, not just putting forth their side, but trying to understand the other side and then re-work it. Yeah, it never hurts to have some empathy with with an opinion especially if you find yourself having really strong opinions on a certain subject I think it's worth diving in a little bit to just see what the other

point of view is and try and understand try and you know maybe you won't fully understand it but just try to get a picture of what they're thinking. Yeah. You know? Yeah, and I think that that's an important skill in life. Everyone in the world is different, and I think it's... Discover the magic of Bad MGM Casino, where the excitement is always on deck. Pull up a seat and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer. From roulette to blackjack, watch as a dealer hosts your table

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The things that they do are better or what they believe is somehow superior and it's very helpful to branch outside of that and really put yourself in someone else's shoes and you know because a lot of times I mean I think this more gets into a political side of thing. But your general geographic area of where you were raised will have a big impact on your perspective in life. And so challenging that with people who live in different areas is a great way

to expand the way you thought about the world. This is why traveling is so important for people. Because you can see all like, oh, these people live in a different way than I do, but yet they are still happy, or they have all of these different things. Yeah, they're thriving, having kids, and having families. And you're like, oh, maybe there's

more than one way to do things. And just at the end of the day, having respect for each other's perspectives, understanding that, like, while I may disagree with you, you know, you still have that perspective because that's who you are. And we can agree to disagree. Sure. We'll be friends. Yeah. No, that's a really good way of looking at it. And and it just kind of open, like comes back to that, like open mindedness.

And with science, that's important because it's not just the ethical concerns, but being open to these different ideas. And, you know, a lot of this when it comes down to genetics and bringing back extinct creatures, I mean, there's got to be some open minded thinking in order to achieve this in a positive way. Yeah, and it sounds like they're making a lot of traction I mean, you know people are really starting to talk about this and understand it I didn't know anything about this before I didn't Rogan started to bring it up I knew vaguely that people were working on this but I didn't know anything about like how far they've gotten or how they're doing it

But it was good to hear. And I think, you know, I'm sure that Beth doesn't speak for the entire scientific community and is not a, you know, she's not the shining example of how everyone in that field is. But if that is somewhat the case, I think that that's a good thing because it seemed like she was very balanced on the ethics side of things. And in general, I mean, one of the things that stood out to me

was she was describing trying to change the DNA in the least invasive way possible or the least amount of steps possible, essentially doing it in the simplest way you can and slowly, which I think is an important thing. You gotta be cautious and follow the steps and do your due diligence. I wonder how they decided that they had done a good enough job sequencing a genome to be like,

right, we're bringing this back and the dire wolf is the first thing. Yeah. I wonder what that whole process was. It just has to hit like 100%. Well, maybe. I mean, I don't know. I would assume that some species are easier

to replicate than others. And so maybe they just had enough evidence of this dire wolf, and they evaluated it from an ethical perspective. And they're like, all right, we have the research. We can go through with this, like everything's good on our end. And they were just like, fuck it, let's just do it. You know, but I, maybe it was like one of those things where they're like, you know, trying to piece together some other thing and like, we don't really have enough information on this to make it successful.

But the dire wolf, they did, you know? Yeah, let's say it was like 3% different than a regular wolf. And it might even be less, right? Because we're very closely related to even a chimpanzee. I think it's like 90%. It's like a 10% difference. So if you've got animals today that are around, that are only a few percent difference, you don't have to juggle much of that splicing DNA in there.

Yeah, you're working a lot off of what you already know. Yeah, that makes sense. Whereas if you've got no model for it, and you've got to kind of build it from the ground up, and you don't even have another creature to like birth it from, wow. And you're building off of incomplete pieces of DNA, damaged DNA and things like that.

Whereas at least you can collect a wolf and get a DNA sample. That's it. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, I found it fascinating. I hope she comes back on. I can't wait to go see a woolly mammoth. Yeah.

I'm super stoked. That zoo or wherever it is is going to be real busy for a real long time. That's going to be a huge attraction. And I think that will only fund efforts to bring back a bunch of other things. Yeah, they'll be like a vote. It's like a little suggestion box in the shop.

You buy a ticket, you get to choose. They're like, overwhelmingly, short-faced bear, 99% of the vote. Damn it, we're bringing it back. Let's build some giant enclosures. Okay, that's it for this week. Go check that one out. Thanks for listening, Sean, as always. Thanks for joining. And we will talk to you guys next week.