Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 470 Joe Rogan Experience Review of Rick Strassman

Episode Date: October 12, 2025

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You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created. Now with your host, Adam Thorn. This might either be the worst podcast, we're the best one of all time. Two, one, go. Enjoy the show. This is the story of DMT, or dimethylethyptamine, a molecule with a complex name and the simplest ability to unlock the door to another dimension.

DMT, the spirit and molecule, you know, it's a conundrum, it's a paradox. It's amazing that we have a molecule in our brain and throughout our body that is the most potent hallucin that we know. Why is DMT in our bodies? Why is it in plants and all sorts of mammals? What is the role of plays in humans? Between the inhalation and the exhalation, they were then transported into, you know, whatever it is. know, whatever it is, or wherever it is, that DMT leads people. I would have expected that I would see angels and fairies and not alien life forms. Are these experiences, spiritual experiences, or otherwise, are they created by physiological

processes, or is the brain itself responding to something that's going on? Hey guys, and welcome to another episode of the JRE review. This week, I am joined by Peter. How are you, sir? Howdy? Doing pretty good. How are you doing? It's good to have you here. I'm doing fantastic. I really am. Very excited that. Rick Strassman is back on. Now, you and I both went to the University of New Mexico, also lived in New Mexico. Great university. Quality institution. Very nice.

And a good medical school, too. Research hospital. UNMH. They do good stuff over there. It's underrated. People don't realize how good the schools are there. So, yes, Dr. Rick Strassman, medical doctor, clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. He's basically the pioneer in psychedelic research, best known for leading the first FDA-approved human studies on DMT in the 90s. Crazy. And then, author of the spirit molecule. Dang.

Yeah, it's kind of amazing that he got permission. to work with that. I think there was a combination of things. I mean, one, he said that he was trying to prove that it was bad, which is something that the government's anti-drug policy would be all about. And I don't think people knew a lot about what DMT was. He stuck it in the back door kind of thing. They were kind of focusing on other drugs that they, you know, they thought were worse.

They're like, oh, this is just a whatever thing. Hi, he didn't, he didn't, I don't think he hit them directly with, this is the most powerful psychedelic ever created and you see aliens. You might see God and become a better person. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, and now he has a new book. So he has a new book coming out, a bit of a deep dive into his memoirs. My Altered States, a doctor's extraordinary account of trauma. psychedelics, and spiritual growth.

I'd like to check it out. You know, I find that stuff very interesting. And, you know, it kind of, he said it spans, like, trauma, consciousness, reality. Kind of, there's like a biblical mysticism element that he was kind of bringing in. I guess he's been studying the Hebrew Bible or something. Yeah, he learned ancient Hebrew. He can't speak the modern kind, but he can speak the ancient one. Wow.

It's crazy. That's massively nerdy. Dedication to your craft. Yeah, what did he say? It took him 16 years to do that. 16 years. Is it the same as the, like, no one speaks it? No.

Only like Jewish priests. Yeah, nobody speaks it. You can't understand it if you speak modern Hebrew. Okay. There is a period of time when they revamped that whole language, adding consonants. There was only, or adding vowels, there was only consonants, I think. Hmm. That's interesting.

Same thing happened with Arabic. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, the English language, a thousand years ago, like the Beowulf poems or whatever they're called, you like can't understand what that is. It's like the language changed too much. You probably couldn't understand anyone until like about Shakespeare's time. Probably. They were too drunk on Scrumpy. Yeah. They were just fighting each other. No teeth. Surviving the plague.

So it was a tough time out there. Hard times. Yeah. So trauma and psychedelic therapy. So, you know, that's a big point of conversation these days. And especially in the world of therapy. I know some people that are trained or getting trained to be able to administer. Well, they don't technically administer the psychedelic, usually have someone else do that.

and then, you know, the therapist will kind of guru you through the experience, kind of integrate it and process things with, you know, help you process things. And, you know, they're finding, especially with like psilocybin, ketamine, MDMA. They're finding fantastic results for people with addiction, depression, PTSD, major traumas. I do the ketamine one. That sounds interesting. Sounds interesting, yeah. It's relatively safe.

Mm-hmm. And I think it does highlight something quite impulsive, which is like the limitations of talk therapy. And, you know, they exist. People are bound by their egos and their habits and their knee-jerk responses. Maybe that stuff can knock them out of it and get them into a deeper realm. Yeah, exactly. I think what the psychedelics are doing is, like, your ego and making the emotions you feel and whatever is troubling you, like, you can't

hide from it in any way. You can't put up walls. You can't be in denial. Like, it's right in front of you, staring, reflecting right back into your consciousness. And, you know, in talk therapy, you can sit there and say all the right things to the therapist and become like agreeable or start working in the direction of like wanting to please them and these are all things that a good therapist should watch out for and should be cautious of and you know many of them are but many of them just take the paycheck and say see you next week so um you know you get people in therapy forever sometimes right where there seems to there might be more of a cure with the psychedelic stuff, is what you're saying?

Sure, I think there's a path potentially for some people. You know, it's like if you're open to it. But the way you get there is research, and that's exactly what Strassman kind of started in his way with DMT. I don't necessarily know what the therapeutic advantage of DMT is. I think, you know, because they will go to this particular realm, they see these entities. entities. I think it just puts existence into a different type of perspective. You're like, maybe, maybe this shit that we deal with here in this plane is just not as important as we think, which probably would take a lot of pressure off us.

I would love that to be true. Yeah. It's ubiquitous, too, that the DMT molecules are across the whole planet in different plants. Yeah, they're in us. And they're in us. Yeah. Which, does that mean we make them? Yeah.

We make them. We make them then. We're making them with our bodies somehow. There we go. In our stomachs? Probably. Yeah, probably down there. Down there?

I would imagine. Let's get strasping on this. Yeah, well, they were saying it's like pineal gland makes them. I think in rats, they found that the liver makes them. But I don't know if it's... That liver does a lot for us. Lots of stuff is making all kinds of things. days. But yeah, it's in there. It's natural. You know, it's not like LSD,

lysurgic acid, which is very synthetic, and other compounds that are. So damage-wise, when it comes to physical damage, it's probably low, you know. It's like cannabinoids. They're also in our system. Right. You know. We all have cannabinoid receptors in our brains. Exactly. And the crows do. Is that right? Those stoners. Stupid stoner birds They smoke weed They do, they love it That's why they're always like

Eating my food Yeah Just looking for Cheetos and Funions Shiny objects That's what they go for Yeah so I You know I think because it's like a part of us

The only question is You know I guess doing anything too much Even if it doesn't kill you It would be a lot Sure if you did DMT every day You'd be pretty spaced out and massively disconnected from the reality here,

which I'm sure would have its own negative consequences for your own mental health. Makes its own problems. Sure. But who knows? Maybe under the right therapeutic conditions, some guidance, you know, dip in and out once every six months. Who's to say? Would you do ayahuasca journey or would you go like more clinical if you were ever to try something like this?

You know, when it comes to ayahuasca, I think it would be cool to go to like, where is it? Like Peru and do it with those shamans and forest down there? Yeah, I don't have to do it with a doctor necessarily. They're all running the mud. Yeah, I mean, look, when you're down there, you're not breaking the law. I mean, most of these compounds aren't legal. And they've done it for a long time. So they really know what they're doing.

Yeah. Not to say the clinicians up here that are recently training or getting trained to administer of this stuff don't know what they're doing like i'm sure they do but they don't have like generational experience with it probably our buddy graham hancock is all about it oh yeah he loves it he's done like six or seven journeys down there deep dives yeah what a brave guy you know and i've known plenty of people i've actually interviewed somebody um for another podcast i have um where they talked in detail about their with ayahuasca. So they basically started it off with, I think, a really heavy night of mushrooms.

Wow. And that was to kind of get you in the zone, I guess. I don't know. And then the next day there was like a fasting period and kind of integration of the night of mushrooms. And then the next night, so you have like a day off, and then the next night you do the do the ayahuasca and yeah while talking to i mean it sounded incredible like something that i can't even imagine very strange i was trying to draw you know like most people try to draw the connection

between drugs right they're like is it like this one or is it like this but when you think about them i mean just take alcohol and marijuana that it's completely different oh yeah you can't really like be like well it's a bit like this one and that it's not they're all different they all take you to kind of a different spot. And that's what he was getting across to me when I was interviewing him about ayahuasca. Some of the visions were really interesting. That to me was like something that would be new. I hadn't done anything at that time that would have elicited that type of, you know, kind of very visceral hallucinations almost or visions. They say you definitely go somewhere it's like you're not in your realm anymore yeah or maybe maybe you just get access to

other dimensions like layers on top of what we already see maybe these things are just existing around us and it just for a short blast gives you gives you a vision of it like supposedly he said what was one of the things that he said i think it was something like a spider he saw like a giant spider like just roaming past but it wasn't like scared of it often these things have messages for the individuals and all of that's very strange

and of course it's a very long time like seven hours or something like that but he said you know there was like bongo music and people just kind of walking around in this like garden area just keeping you chill if you were like getting worried they'd like give you a blanket

or usher you somewhere Just turn the bongo music up a little bit, please. That's it. If you could just turn the bongs up, that'd be solid. You know, but my question to this person was, and this is why I wanted to do the podcast with him, just to kind of record the experience, because you don't always get really good data or stories on this stuff, and especially not firsthand. And also, because it's kind of like a fleeting memory, I wanted to capture it before. even he forgot about it, clearly. Gotcha.

So try and keep it as fresh as possible. And my question was like, what is the change? What's the integration? Because he was so sure immediately, he was like, oh, dude, this changes everything. I'm like a different person now. I've seen it all. I've done it. I've been there.

I've gone through the wormhole. He's all wise now. I've experienced through my traumas and I went deep. And I'm like, I love all. that. And I love maybe even just feeling like that for a second because so many people feel so trapped in their own psyche and their own issues mentally that even just the belief for a short period of time that you've solved something might be enough for you to be a bit more positive. I really wanted to know, well, what were the changes? Are they long term? Did it really

change your behaviors? Is there an understanding that you gain that is long term? Or is this just a very fleeting thing like holding a snowflake and then it just melts away and it's all gone and you're like oh there was a thing it was it was it cold i can't remember and no it was cold and round it's pretty cold wait a minute are you on DMT right now okay yeah i took some before the podcast good idea out of respect yes out of respect but but yeah the the real answer at the end of it was just like the jury's still out on this one for me because it seems like these people behave and act and work and do everything the same as they did before that so you're saying that maybe there's more of an illusion of a cure or a difference than there actually is yeah I don't

know I mean maybe it's just so much more subtle and it was it's just like a slight adjustment but it's at least in the positive direction, but I don't know. I don't really know what the value of it is. Again, I haven't studied it. This is just kind of chatting with people and being interested. But at the same time, they definitely are, I know clinicians that use ketamine for therapy. They specialize in that. I've heard great stuff comes from those sessions. Yeah, they're seeing that it really helps people with their depression and alcoholism. Yep, addictions. The native American Church has used psychedelics peyote mushrooms for decades, at least, to treat addiction. Now, peyote is mesculine, right?

Mesculine, which is a bit like mushrooms? I would have never done it. I'm sure it's between mushrooms and DMTs in a way. Okay. It has that more true. Some rattlesnake hallucinations? Yeah, more deserty vibes. Deserty vibes, cacti type stuff.

Yeah, Jim Morrison. I believe it. He's putting that out there. Is that what he did a lot of? I think he did a lot of mesculine. Okay. He liked LSD too, I think. I could be wrong.

Who knows? We giggle it. We giggle it. But yeah, you don't hear a lot about masculine these days. It's not too strong. It's not. If you just chew on a button, it doesn't really zoom you to the moon. Okay.

Like DMT would. But don't they make some sort of drink that you? you take and then it's like concentrated and then also you feel really sick I think you do puke at some point you throw up I'd like to get into that a little bit hmm masculine seems same it just seems like cool one well I think that the you know like I was saying there are some therapeutic advantages you're potentially and I think they should be studied and explored and if there are values there for some people that are really stuck you know that has have tried everything they can with talk therapy but still feel terrible, can't, you know,

kick the addiction or they're just stuck in this like negative cycle that's interfering with their life if there's a potential for helping those people. I think we have an obligation to find it. And it's research. We can always throw it out if it doesn't show any therapeutic benefits once we've like tested it with the scientific method then it's perfectly reasonable to say well no there's nothing there so keep it illegal and don't let it don't tell everyone not to abuse it or of course there's the other part of this

where they do keep it illegal because it works so well and they don't make any money on it that's it uh yeah you know who they are can you just sell it like another product like just get a big peyote growing you know farm and then grind it into pills

and then sell them like a supplement but with a prescription for way too much money and you make money that way, surely. Come on. Do you have to, have to, have to always have a pattern on it? I guess so. Yeah. I guess so.

Every plant, every medicine is from a plant anyway. That's true. We just have to get to the bottom of these ones. Yeah. Do you think any medicines come from animals? Andrina chrome I heard I heard rhino bones

Give you bonus Oh yeah Tiger Tiger Tiger blood Makes you Charlie Sheen Ah Winning

I wonder if he's ever had Some DMT experiences No I think he was more Of a crack guy Crack Yeah He like getting real excited About stuff

banging seven gram rocks because that's just how I roll. Bless them. In this part, they did a bit of a revisit to the spirit molecule, you know, just kind of a recap on his IV DMT blast, where he'd send these subjects into hyperspace. What he was saying is the IV quantities they were using were quite a lot. Because, again, well, they were kind of relying on him as the expert to say, what the dough should be, so they just kind of approved, I think, a range that he suggested

or his team, which kind of gave him free reign. But now they know a lot more. They wouldn't let you go there. But I mean, DM, like, IV'd in. That's incredible. Yeah. I don't know how long those, I think they were like over an hour, though. These people were in there. In their states? In this space of just... So the DMT, not the... So the DMT is just a quick acting, right? And then the, what, the MOI inhibitor is what? They use in ayahuasca. Yeah.

So even though it would be quick acting, if you have it IVed, it just isn't stopping. Gotcha. So it did, like, your body is very good at getting DMT out of its system or, like, break it down. So it's not affecting your mind, right? That's why your body can break it down all in five minutes and it's gone. When you wake up from a dream, it's gone. Right. But it turns out if you IV it into somebody, you can't.

Your body is doing everything it can to stop it. And it's like, where's the rest of this coming from? Oh, no. And they just blasted through space. But, you know, the interesting thing about that, and I remember the documentary, it was cool. They had it on Netflix for a while. And Rogan actually narrates it, which is kind of cool. Yeah.

It's a good documentary, dude. And, you know, a lot of the... it talks about kind of how Strassman really kind of freaked out and that's why he stopped doing the experiments because the subjects kept coming back over and over again with more and more um stories that were like lining up overlapping stories a bunch of them the types of things that shouldn't be able to line up and you know I don't know if I think I think he must have done the DMT before he did these studies, but obviously not in this kind of concentration.

But I think it just did kind of freak him out. And then there's something that he actually brought up the last time he was on, Rogan, and it's about this kind of new finding, and I don't know who found it, but there's a laser experiment theory, I guess, is what it. I guess it's what it is, where it's like DMT might tune perception to the point of accessing this sort of universal field of information that's everywhere all the time. So the videos that I've seen of it, and obviously a lot's lost because it just basically looks like a really high person staring at a laser beam on a wall.

So you're like, what? That looks ridiculous. But the idea is you get one of those, like a laser, you know, like a red part. pointer, whatever, and they have different types of lasers like that. And then you refract it somehow. So you put it through a prism or like a lens or a glass, you know, curved glass, something like that. And then it refracts on the wall.

So it's like spread on the wall. You got your thin line. People administer DMT. And then they look into the laser and supposedly there's characters and letters and things just moving around like a code like actually seeing into the matrix like the matrix the matrix was so ahead of its time if it turns out you can DMT laser into the code of the universe like did those guys just guess it all maybe they have some insider knowledge i should actually now say those ladies those lovely ladies yes but i was talking in past tense of what they

who they were then. The Winooski, Winninsky, Winninsky, sisters? Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Excellent movie. Excellent movie and an incredible story.

I mean, it were just so many pieces of that. But yeah, what do you make of the laser experiment? I mean, can anyone make anything of it? It's like this code is it just... Tripping? People tripping. Right. You know, lasers have little parts about their...

Like, when you put a laser on a wall, it's not just a dot. It's bubbling in there. It's like moving around. It's a bunch of photons. Is that what that is? From a very small spectrum of light. That's why they're just certain colors. It's like a dog fight going on outside.

Yep. Dog attacks. Is this dog on DMT? Get him out of here. dogs this hippie. The smartest people that Rogan has Zon often say that they believe

that we're in a simulation. Right. You know, but is that it? Is that it lining up? Could be. You know? The only annoying part about this whole thing is you can't record any of it.

It's not like through your DMT lens you can take a picture of this code, you know, and so it's so it's just like a very, high person trying to remember it right and that always gets annoying yeah like i think i saw a fish and an upside down pee and uh squiggly line two dots i'm going to put my pen down it's not worth writing it's not it's just complete mess they just eat the page yep yeah that's kind of it's what makes it tricky about these experiences is there's just no way to record

any of it. I mean, if someone could bring something back, almost the same as like from the dream world. It's like, I guess from the dream world, sometimes people have ideas that maybe could turn into inventions or businesses. Like, that could be real. And I've heard of a lucid dreamer in this book that I was reading once that he was a chemist. And he could lucid dream so effectively that he could write out equations on boards that he was working on, like chemical, biochemistry, that kind of thing. organic chemistry reactions and solve them and find the answers. So you could do work and leave and, you know.

Double dipping. That is. That's super nerd. Well, you don't lose a dream of your work home with you. Right. Keep doing homework. But, you know, the question there is, it's like, are you able to bring anything back from, like, if there are entities in the DMT world, couldn't they?

give you something to come back with? Maybe they just don't care. They impart feelings to people. Tickling. They give them a little scratch here and there. Uh-huh.

Like a soul tickling, let's say, where they feel lighter or maybe more like heavier, like more responsibility. I think that there's, we have to be careful of quick solutions

and driving towards seeking those. another big one is like the encounters with machine elves or aliens and many people talk about experiencing that machine elves yeah so they're just tiny little creatures that can make things i like that and they just kind of here you go check that out look at this what about this here you go just handing you all this just floats in front of your brain and you're like i can't i can't make sense of any of this right now interesting Yeah. It's sheen elves. Terrence McCannett talked about it a lot. He was machine elves. Get into that one. Yeah, not everyone sees him. One account I heard of, and it was just a YouTube video that interviews people that have done it, is there was this guy that said there was like this dancing alien female that was always kind of interacting with him. And they would like, was somehow kind of getting mad at him, like he'd cheated on it or something.

That story kind of went in a direction. I was like, I don't think. Sounds erotic. But maybe that was just his experience with what he was seeing. And another thing that lines up, too, with the many videos I've seen it, it's like, if people do it too much, it kind of gets to a point where there's this energy where they're like, that's enough. You shouldn't be here anymore. Like for right now.

Take it easy. Come back, but yeah. Hang out in the real world for a minute. Mm-hmm. You're going to lose your... You know, maybe they just see him like, material, like shaking into their universe. And it's like, no, no, no, no. You need to get back over there, dude.

You go nuts. You got a job. You got a job to do. Those blockbuster movies can't hand themselves out. Not anymore. Not today. It's missed that place. They have one left, supposedly.

It's like a Fairbanks, maybe. Is that in Canada? Alaska, right? Yeah. Alaska. Is it legit blockbuster, or was it just some nerd that bought a bunch of them and just kept the name? Probably legit. Huh.

That's interesting. It is kind of a shame that you don't go to the movie store anymore. On the weekend as a kid, that was like the best thing to do. New releases, you're like, oh, God, I hope there's one there. Right. And then you check all those packets, they're all empty. Yeah. And the shame when you were the ones to choose the movie and it sucked.

Oh. Oh, that was rough. I was, I'm always getting the one about aliens or flying or something, 80s. Everyone's like, boo. I'm like, I liked it. Well, there's like it added pressure. When you're the guy that picked the movie and you're, like, hoping people will be into it the whole time you're like laughing extra. It wasn't that good?

Oh, I'll get the popcorn. Everyone just looks bored. Like, damn it. Damn it. All right, let's finish this up with some of the biblical weirdness, I would say, book of Enoch. That's a good book. He got into it. He really dived into it.

Rogan's done something similar, which is just kind of have AI, just tell them about it. Yeah. So what do you know about the book of Enoch? Well, I know the two parts of the Bible, the old test or the New Testament, at some point, were, like, you know, canonized, and some books were excluded and some were added. And I, the book of Thomas, I believe, Mary Magdalene, the book of Enoch. There's a couple others. Jeff.

Carl, the book of Carl. And I just read about the book of Enoch moments ago, and it was, it's like, it tells a story of the Nephilim being created, I think, where it was. That's the angels coming down, mating with humans, and then, like, causing chaos. Really? Yeah. Whoa. That's what they, Rogan talked about in this pod. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I really want to, I'm downloading the book, the book on Audible Book. I'm going to listen to it. Oh, so they've, like, translated and made it into a story that is just easier to digest than listening to someone breed the Bible. Exactly. I can listen to it while I'd take a walk or something. Yeah, yeah. Well, get on that. Let me know what you think.

You know, what's interesting about it? It's like, well, where does that fall in? It's like, this is part of the history. Was it a story that for a long time existed that people read and worshipped and believed and knew to be true? The people of that area. Like the, I forget they're called, but the desert Jews. Okay. They were in the enclaves.

Yeah, yeah. Had these books. Wow. Yeah. and they tell some incredible stuff there's even um it's kind of a weird thing like getting rid of the book it's kind of like well you're changing history because like at that point that was history right so now we don't believe it obviously but that's because someone changed history if someone hadn't we'd be like oh yeah of course those like alien angel creatures had sex with a bunch of humans and then

made some whatever else and giants giants and the um there's there's a book on there's a book that they excluded that talks about jesus coming from the stars as a traveler who's like an alien yeah that's that's a cool cool read why don't we have that in there and why didn't that why did they exclude those and not the other ones that are ridiculous like the 900 years or walking on water Walking on water. Making everything in the wine. Drugs. Thank God he didn't get too close to the ocean.

Uh-huh. That's why they called the Red Sea, though. Would have been a wine. That would have made a huge... Imagine if he could only turn it into wine, but then not back. And he's like, whoops, and all the sea. And it's like, well, we're going to have a couple of good weeks, a couple of fun weeks, and then we're going to struggle. Death.

We're going to struggle out. after that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Well, let's read the book of Enoch. Let's get into it. Yeah, let's get into it, try and figure out what's happening there and go from that. Lastly, they finished up with Neurrelink and AI, future consciousness. I mean, that kind of ties into like DMT type stuff, like, but more in a technical, futuristic kind of way. And it's like, yeah, is there some sort of point that we're going towards where all these things just kind of connect at the same time, the singularity event? We will be obsolete and flesh and blood, humans will be no longer around.

I mean, dude, neurolankan, like, augmentation is 100% going to be a thing. Yes. I mean, if it's not. not done with, with, like, nanotech medications. I mean, imagine that. Just, like, a pill that just, like, goes through your system. And then it's little nanotechs. And they're like, right, stem cells here, peptides there, fix all these things, you know, turn back the age of all these organs, grow some hair, you know, like literally just reform you.

Cutting cancer out or burn it or something. Yeah. Make them faster. make them like super ripped even though you don't like barely work out i would like would love that and then on top of that i mean just think of just regular AI enhancements like basically the chip in your brain that gives you infinite access to all things just like an infinite like a chat immediately just all the answers yeah just a thought away yeah somebody says something to you and you're just not sure what to say back.

So you just, like, run it through all these systems. And you're like, give me the best, nicest, cleanest answer here that gives me the outcome I want. It's all br-br-br-br-they're doing the same, though. So it's, like, a real problem. A couple of polite guys trying to sell the car to each other. Yeah. Who knows?

Who knows? But AI is coming up a lot. It's coming up a lot everywhere. People have complained recently that it's like, oh, AI again with, Rogan, I'm like, it's AI again with everyone. Yeah. No one knows what the hell this thing is going to do.

It's freaking people out. It's putting jobs out of business. Whole industries are gone. Gone. Yeah. It's wild stuff, dude. And it's good for some stuff, but like, I guess, I think they've been using it to write scripts because they've been terrible lately in all these movies.

Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, on that note, and yeah, movies do suck. need to get better. Let's hope there's more research in these areas for these psychedelics and for therapy and help. God bless Strassman for getting that past and being able to do that research in the 90s. Like, well done. He's a good man and I hope to see him back on. And I'm going to check his book out while Pete reads the book of Enoch. We'll get back to you. God bless you. Talk to you next time. Bye. See you. You know,

Thank you.