Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast - 524 JRE Review Rick Perry

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Rick Perry and W. Bryan Hubbard is one of the more unexpected and important psychedelic conversations Rogan has had in a while. Perry, the former Governor of Texas and U.S. Secretary of Energy, joins Hubbard to make the case for ibogaine as a serious medical tool for addiction, PTSD, brain injury, and veteran mental health. The episode gets into why ibogaine remains illegal in the U.S., what advocates believe it can do for opioid dependence, and why Perry has become such a passionate supporter of medicalizing it. It is part science, part politics, part recovery conversation, and part "how is Rick Perry the guy leading this charge?" Rogan pushes into the promise, the risks, and the bigger question of whether America is ready to rethink psychedelic medicine. A fascinating episode about addiction, trauma, veterans, and one of the most controversial treatments being discussed in mental health today. Check out Two Percent Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/1QWeotaHhAjw1QyMaqLFjf?si=d9674e3ba4824df4

You are listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review podcast. We find little nuggets, treasures, valuable pieces of gold in the Joe Rogan Experience podcast and pass them on to you. Perhaps expand a little bit. We are not associated with Joe Rogan in any way. Think of us as the Talking Dead to Joe's Walking Dead. You're listening to the Joe Rogan Experience Review. What a bizarre thing we've created. Now with your host, Adam Thorn.

This might either be the worst podcast or the best one a whole time. One, go. Enjoy the show. Now, Schedule 1 says that there is no medical purpose for this compound, whatever it might be, and that it's addictive. And Ibogaine is neither of those. Right. Clearly evidence, as a matter of fact, if there was a definition of a compound that was not Schedule 1, Ibegain would be the top of the list, most likely. Yes.

All right. So welcome to. the Joe Rogan Experience Review, that was Rick Perry and Brian Hubbard talking with Joe Rogan about Ibergain. Now, you know, I knew who Rick Perry was, but never in a million years would I have thought that the conservative ex-governor of Texas would suddenly be the biggest advocate for Ibegain, Ibergame treatment. Kind of wild, right? Yeah, it is. I mean, sort of unexpected characters in this in this initiative um but i think that these two at least you know seeing them on on joe's podcast i feel like they're make a really great team and i feel like they're

going to make something happen here you know yeah and they're not seen as a couple of hippies that are trying to promote a psychedelic drug, you know, these are serious people, Rick Perry especially. Yeah. And he's drawn into this with an incredible desire to want to help these veterans that are struggling so badly. Yeah. It's powerful. I found it really powerful. I found the combination of these two.

like I said, they are going to make an impact one way or another. They have sort of different motivations, right? Different moving stories and people that have sort of driven them to get here. Right. Perry talks a lot about, you know, this one specific veteran that impacted his life personally. Yeah, Marcus LaTrell. Yes. Legend.

And, you know, Brian talks more about. these other moving stories about just people, children, you know, even his wife that, you know, were affected by the opioid crisis and, you know, pharmaceutical companies and their... You've had a whole bullshit story of opioids and how awful they've been. I'll tell you what, Brian Hubbard, interesting guy.

I mean, the passion on that guy. It was almost like getting to like preaching energy. Yeah. I mean, this is someone that could not believe and have more passion in a subject than this. That's what I was getting from it. At some point, I literally wanted to stand up and say, amen. Like, he was sold. He was.

Yeah. He's so moving. I said in his stories and in his previous roles talking about the impact he had, you know, managing the opioid crisis in Kentucky and, you know, having, you know, if he's not a motivational speaker, he should be. He's got the voice. He's got the passion. He's got the hair to go with it. Right. And he looks a bit like Zach Galaphanacus. He kind of does. But, you know, it works. And yeah, I got teary-eyed listening to him. I got angry listening to him. He just really brought a lot of emotions out for me, which I think is the way that you're going to

have to go about something like this initiative. You're going to have to tap into people's emotions not just their logic. Well, it's appropriate when you think of what they're saying, and it's that lives are being destroyed. Okay, this isn't a slight inconvenience. So these people's lives are getting destroyed. They're getting directed towards taking opioids to fix how they're feeling. And it's not doing that. It's creating addiction and death and destroying families while these pharmaceutical companies make a hell of a lot of money. And on the other side, where Rick Perry is, he's seeing these veterans are, you know, destroying their marriages and often committing suicide. because they just are not getting the support that they need.

There's like the treatments that they're given that they have access to at the VA is just not helping them. And we've heard this a lot, even from special forces, people that we know personally, that it's a real issue. And it's heartbreaking. I wanted to play this clip from Tim Ferriss's podcast about Ibegain.

It's pretty sure. but it gives an idea kind of what the experience is, what the trip is. So before we get into the rest of the review, I think it's kind of useful. Because when I was listening to Rick and Brian talking on this, the whole time I'm thinking, I just, I don't know what it's doing. Like, what is that thing that Ibegain does? Yeah. But anyway, let's play this.

The thing that I found really interesting about this drug is that it produces is what I think is probably the most stereotyped trip, if you want to call it, or the psychological phenomenon that happens alongside the drug effects. And so people will describe this earlier life autobiographical replaying of emotionally salient memories that are kind of epoched in time. And so, and they'll some people got, we've got life review, right? Life review or slideshow. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, it's interesting. Everybody's kind of got a different, different version. and what the slideshow ends up playing out to be like for them. And so some people would say, I found myself in this room

and it was like my TV from childhood and all of a sudden it was playing all these things or I found myself in a hall of mirrors and it was playing all these things. So like the context can be very different, you know, but the action, the mind seems to shape that, but the actual replay seems to be pretty stereotyped. Stereotype meaning like this, it's a pattern that repeats.

Or it's just like a common characteristic. It's a common characteristic. And it's, yeah. So I don't know if that helps. That kind of, you know, that gives me an idea of what's going on. You know, it's this slideshow review of your life, how you got to where you are. And, you know, through that somehow, that reflection, maybe it's a process of like you just don't have the denial in there. You're faced with what you did to get to this.

And, you know, and it's not to say that it's, anybody's fault. I mean, when it comes to PTSD, that's not the person's fault or, you know, a pattern of behavior that led to it. But addiction is complicated and it helps clean up people's addiction as well. Fascinating, really. Yeah. I think it's fascinating the way they describe it. Like it rewires your brain basically to fix these things that are ailing you, that you're falling into maybe you have resentment over it. Are you, you know, you're fighting it, but you're losing this fight with something.

And I also find it very interesting that there's multiple, you know, scenarios in which this potential, you know, drug and, you know, process going through a treatment plan with Ivagaine is useful. It's not just for people with one specific ailment. You know, there's a lot, there's addiction, there's PTSD, maybe potential, you know, other issues that we haven't even discovered yet. Yeah, it seems quite broad. And also one thing I would add, you know, the further I get along in my new career as a therapist, and mental health therapist, you know, not to say that you see the holes in the system that you're working in, but, you know, you start to see what other elements can be useful. And this drug seems very effective when administered to help people through these things, addiction, depression, and, you know, just these other kind of major concerns that they have in their life.

But if you start training medical professionals, especially mental health, professional, psychologists, you know, that sort of thing, to be able to administer this medication. and then, you know, have time to integrate what their experience was, follow up with appropriate therapy. Things get more effective really quickly. So there's also the potential for this, you know, combination of therapeutic behaviors. Right. This podcast is brought to you by Raycon. Everyone says that 2025 is going to be different. And for better, or worse, it will be. The world will change whether you want to make big resolutions or not. So maybe just keep it simple and say you hit the gym once a week or call your mom.

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Buyrakan.com slash J-R-E-R. And I think that veterans, as a specific group of people, have less resources and more problems accessing those resources than the average individual. Right. Right. And this group tends, you know, there is a high number of veterans that live in rural areas. You know, that's a, that's a statistic that you can find that if, you know, living in a

rural area, having PTSD, maybe being lower income before going into the service or whatever, you know, you don't have mental health access. They're on VA benefits. And so they have like sort of the cards stacked against them. And so the idea that, you know, someone like Brian Hubbard has. $842 million in settlement funds, is that right? Something like that. To manage in this sort of initiative to get Ibogaine, like an Ibogaine treatment plan going for individuals in these groups.

You know, the struggle he's going to have and the obstacle he's up against is ensuring that it reaches all the right programs in all the right areas in the right number. Right. Right. So how do we know that it, you know, there's, and on top of that, making sure that those funds don't get tied up through the red tape and the bureaucracy, right? Like, well, you know, I would assume that there's going to be a lot of stops put in place. I mean, this is kind of what, like, the FDA is constantly doing, is making it harder and harder, you know, for these types of treatments to be passed for whatever reason. I mean, it's probably because, you know, then, not going to be in bed with pharmaceutical companies.

Right. So there's not big profits there. And I mean, this is why it comes back to how, you know, Brian was talking about the opioid epidemic and how that has really been the solution for veterans really suffering up until now. Well, still is. I mean, I mean, that was their option. And it was quickly passed by the FDA. And, you know, to say no oversight.

It's a weird thing because, like, the FDA, it does a lot of things. And it does protect us. It does make sure that drugs that get to market aren't killing people on X, Y, and Z. Yet, they still kind of do. Yeah. And there's some ugly ones that get through. Yeah. And then they're massively overprescribed.

And it takes years to kind of curb that and fix it. And who's taking responsibility for that? Yeah. You know, for the FDA. to put their hands up and be like, look, we really dropped the ball on this. And we took too long to fix it. And a lot of people suffered. And our job is to ensure safety. And, you know, we're really going to put our best foot forward, find a better solution to help these people. Because we've got ground to make up for what we've done. We've actually made the situation worse and destroyed families.

So, oh, now there's this new therapeutic potential solution. obviously it's not legal there's a lot of hurdles but we're going to work with the right people do the research finding efficacy make sure it's safe and push it through it just doesn't seem like they work like that it's almost like they just stand there going no you prove it to us and we're decide and no actually you can't even study that we're just going to make it like that it's sad it's sad to think that people get out you know whether it's pride or, you know, obligation to shareholders or whatever it is that may stop these individuals or these groups, you know, these pharmaceutical companies from admitting their faults and sort of

like making amends and trying to come out and fix it like you said and really try to turn it around. Like, that's so unlikely. I think what's more likely is that individuals like, you know, Perry and Hubbard, they're going to make enough noise. They're going to build up all the right allies. They're going to get enough people behind them that there's going to be an undeniable evidence and support that they have no choice but to say, okay, fine.

Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. I really do. I mean, because it all comes down to access, right, at the end of the day. So obviously, of first, certain people will get access, right? I'm hoping it's the veterans that are, are close to suicide or just really in a kind of their own self-destructive kind of process because that's where it needs to go.

But all the way down to addictions, an addiction treatment. I mean, in therapy, I know that there is a massive problem with addictions. And there's so many things you can be addicted to. Right. And not everyone has access to a therapist. how effective addiction therapy is, probably better than not going to any therapy, but addictions are tough to beat. And there's a massive range of how affected you can be by this. So to create an environment where people have access to a treatment like this,

and we're talking a one time go through. You know, from what I've heard about it, it's not that you need to do Ibergain time after time after time. to figure out where your issue is or, I mean, people are doing it and then they're like, quitting drinking, quitting whatever drugs, quitting. I mean, it's kind of remarkable. Yeah, I'm really anxious and excited to see what Perry does, you know, trying, I think, sounds like he's trying to work with the Texas Medical Center down in Houston, like partnering with them on the research behind this, the potential for this treatment. And, oh, that's right. That's that huge hospital he was talking about.

Huge hospital down in Houston. And, you know, what the potential is is when you work with like the biggest medical center in the country essentially. And you work with, you know, motivated people that do have put a lot of support behind their veterans like the people of Texas. And a motivated leader leaders like these two, like they're going to get somewhere. Yeah. And you know what? He's the right type of person to be talking to Trump about this too. I don't think that Trump, even as a Republican leader, has really much prejudice or biases

against treatments for addiction and suffering veterans. I mean, Trump's brother died of alcoholism. Yeah. He knows it's real. Yeah. You know? Just the stats on suicide alone that Perry and Hubbard mentioned, unbelievable. It's so shocking.

It almost feels like there's a kind of a systemic failure in the support of mental health needs for veterans. Yeah. I mean, that's the only explanation, right? Like, it's well known that people that, you know, serve in the armed forces and all the different branches, they come back. to real life and they struggle and they have these post-traumatic stress disorders and these symptoms and these barriers to reacclamating into real life.

Why is the system that's set up to help them medically basically creating more problems for them by getting them addicted to opioids? Like why is that the solution? Why was it ever the solution? It was probably all the options they were given. It's not like doctors just get to sit there

and go, oh, we can give you anything. Right. It's like, as treatment plans go, this is the first thing that we can do. Yeah. Because you're in a state. You're really struggling. That's kind of numb you. And I'm sorry these things are so addictive.

Yeah. And I'm sure it's tough for the doctors too. And the VA is just, you know, under-resourced. Yeah, of course. Undefunded. Yeah. And it puts them in a really tight spot. I'm sure there's a lot of really passionate people that work there that hope that it could get better.

But it's not also going to be the most progressive kind of health care that you're going to get. Yeah. Meaning they're not going to try all sorts of, you know, more. Experimental. Yeah. Yeah. Woo-woo-y type, you know. Yeah.

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And to be fair, I mean, I think everyone probably could benefit from some of those things as well, right? like the the sort of alternative ways of dealing with mental health and physical health that you know may not be so mainstream or that might have some you know connotations that go along with it or some you know like some things that people may not feel like it's for them for certain reasons that can't that don't really can't really explain but I think that when you hear the stories that these guys talk about especially Perry when he's telling It's a very personal story about the veteran that really impacted him and how he came around to this and why he's dedicated the rest of his career to making this happen.

You know, you realize that these are real people. They served our country. They've been left behind by the system. And it doesn't matter what has happened in the past. We have to move forward, right? Everyone needs to have more of an open mind about this because these are people that really need some help. and that at all costs. Yeah, and like you said, they've been left behind.

And that's the heartbreaking thing here is, in a sense, all of the people that could be helped by Ibegain are being left behind. I mean, there are other treatments for things like addiction, depression, the rest of it. I mean, therapy is a big part of it. But Perry points out combining therapy, like I was saying earlier, with some sort of innovative treatment like Ibergain, it's, you know, it's a combination of a holistic solution that we really need to start looking at because there just has been no fix to the veteran suicide issue. And that has to stop. Yeah.

And on top of all, like of everything, like the bureaucratic hurdles created, you know, for veterans, through, you know, going through the VA system, it sounds like a nightmare for them. they've, you know, they've already been through so much. Now they have to fight through this red tape while they have PTSD. They potentially have brain injuries. They've got physical ailments. They're hurting. They, you know, life looks so different for them.

And we're not only making it hard for them to, you know, get treatments that can really help them, but, you know, maybe even making it feel like we're just saying this like woo-woo medicine. It's like, why are we not just saying? if these things really help people, let's get it going. Yeah. But again, it's so much red tape. Yeah.

I mean, and I understand why it's there when a medicine could be potentially toxic or poisonous and have long-term really negative effects. But things like this, and as far as I know, it's non-toxic. I mean, maybe there's like a point of how much I begin you could take to where it would be dangerous for you. but, you know, I don't get the red tape with this. This is coming from some old ideologies, you know, in the system that it just not good. And look, I get it.

Ibegain, its potential is really exciting, but it also sounds risky, right, without proper supervision, potentially. I mean, they describe it as like a hard reboot. Yeah. You know, it's resetting neural pathways in the brain. Do you know, I sound ignorant saying this just because I just listened to this whole podcast, but how is the treatment administered? Is it a oral medication? Is this an intravenous medication?

How do they actually? I don't know. Do you smoke Ibigen? I don't know. I really don't know. I didn't even think to look that up. Gosh, we're going to have to Google it. Yeah, we'll have to figure out something there.

How is Ibegain used? What would be interesting to see is Perry's push for legislation and action around Ibergain. Like, you know, it's something we should watch out for. And it's going to be really interesting to see how he maneuvers around the stigma and kind of these outdated drug laws that have like held back this type of treatment. Again, I think that he's really the messenger for this. You know, if you take somebody that traditionally has been very conservative, but also an effective governor, so, you know, he's not just some quack wack wacko out there. It's going to build confidence.

And I really think that that is the way to get these things passed. Advocates like that, it's just kind of hard to argue with because he gets so much respect from many conservative people. And again, you're dealing with veterans. It's like who doesn't want to help veterans at the end of the day, especially ones really struggling. Well, veterans and just people, you know. Hubbard talks about this really moving, you know,

towards the end of the podcast, this really moving story about his wife and her story with Ibegain, you know, how it started with, transformed her life, really, because she was addicted to opioids. And obviously he's not saying it's all perfect. and everything, just go with it. Like, even though, like, I saw, you know, it work. We need more research. We need more. But that's sort of what they're advocating for, right? It's like how to find the best, most effective, you know, a plan of treatment. How do we get it managed and, you know,

under the right supervision and doctors that are interested in, and enthusiastic about this? Yeah, they were definitely responsible for, with their ideas. I mean, listen, they both believe in this. They've seen people that have done the treatment and they know it works. But also they're not doctors. They're not coming out saying this should be immediately available. They're saying, hey, run your studies, do your tests, and see the results, and then allow it to be administered if it works. Right. And that's really what we're missing.

We're just missing so much of that. Like, give it a chance. And that's the same for like psilocybin and MDMA therapies. I mean hurdle after hurdle. Yeah. Something. Back to what we were just saying before. We neither of us understood how this was actually administered.

It's just taken orally. Oh, you found something. It's like a pill? Yeah, I suppose. It's used historically in, you know, in religious ceremonies to gain spiritual enlightenment, you know, just like, what's the other one? I awesca.

I can never say it. Ayahuasca. You know, it's one of those. Like, that's been used. used for centuries. Like, it's not new to us, right? To humans. It's just new to the Western world. It's new to, um, you know, modern medicine and people are scared of things like that. Like, for whatever reason, we've seen that, you know, and maybe, maybe we blame the war on drugs. I don't know. For people being afraid to try new things and to sort of, um, you know, when, like,

the, what you, the, the clip you played at the beginning of this podcast, when something is labeled to schedule one, it basically shuts all doors to even do research on it. It just says there's no potential medical gain from it. And so when something is labeled that, it really puts up, you know, more than tape. Like, it's a brick wall that makes it almost impossible for something to happen. So you have to get approval for that wall to come down. You have to then get people to get closer to it and help you clean up the bricks that have fallen. Like, this is, you know, just in my head how they, how, you know, it's they have a long journey ahead of them and um i'm you know in support of this i think you know again like we've said over and over you can't shut down ideas that could potentially

help people in such a life changing ways when they really need it like this isn't medical cannabis for back pain like this is you know preventing our veterans that have served their country for you know five 10 15 20 30 years from killing you themselves. Yeah, it's truly saving lives. It is. It's stopping families being destroyed. Yeah. And, you know, the other part of it, for the general public, the addiction part of it, I mean, you know, and also depression for many people in society, if it can benefit them, it's like, look, there's never going to be a cure for these things, but if there are really good treatments in place supported by therapy.

Yeah, but the post-treatment support is very critical here as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it should be, and it has to be. But the drug itself, it just seems so effective that I don't know if people that are going down to Mexico to do Ibegain are getting a lot of post-therapeutic support. and it's still benefiting them greatly. Right. I mean, wow.

Not saying it's a cure all, but it's something. You know, this episode reminded me of how complicated the opioid crisis really was, you know. And, you know, it's not just about funding. It's about creating access and breaking down the stigmas. It's like on one hand, people are making so much money from the opioids. They're not looking to find any other treatment to come in. and take away their money. And then it's just a bunch of lawsuits

as people's lives get destroyed, right? Which is disgusting. Yeah. And these two, you know, Perry and Hubbard, I feel like they've really only scratched the surface of what it will take to change public perception about eye gain and psychedelics alike. They have a huge hurdle ahead of them.

And, you know, they're sort of these pioneers and it's going to get worse before it gets better, I'm sure. The more noise they make about this, the more pushback they're going to get, the more, you know, you know, traditionally conservative, you know, people and those in support of these pharmaceutical companies and their success are going to say, like, you know, this isn't the right way to go. We're looking in the wrong direction. But I, as someone who feels like, you know, innovation, you know, you know, is important, whether it sort of serves everyone or just a small portion of people, like, we have to push forward with this, even if there's a small potential that it helps people

in the way they're anticipating. Yeah. We have to continue to push. And I think these two are going to follow through with it. And they're going to take those hurdles in stride, you know? Yeah, that's true. And coming on Rogan is the way to do it. I mean, it's now millions of people have heard this message. Yeah. And what better way to get it out. What's really nice about this. And Rogan does like having governors on. He loves chatting with them, you know, even ex-governors like Perry. It's one of those things where if they make some ground, significant ground, he'd be willing to have them on again to get the update to see how much further it's gone because he really wants to advocate for these people, which is wonderful. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

it's hearing their personal stories makes a difference. You know, people connect with the human side of the issues, more than stats. Yeah. Yeah. I can't repeat it enough. You know,

the moving stories they talked about, the, um, the passion they have for this project. Um, you know, it makes me want to support any and all, like funding and research for drugs like Ibegain.

and their treatment plans and, you know, get behind this. I think some of this was eye-opening for me. Some of this was known, but not really like a top of the mind type thing where it's like, you know, coming off the back of the election, coming off the back of all of these like big topics that have been so front of mind recently. Like this is something that can probably easily fall to the wayside for a lot of people. I would say I don't personally know too many veterans that have experienced this. I know a few, but there aren't like, you know, a day to day in my life as much as they are in yours. And so it's really, like, it's, I don't want to say the word refreshing, but it's, it's a different bit of information that, like, I'm actually really grateful

that I was able to hear more and learn more about. It's one of the reasons I really enjoy listening to Rogan. Like, it's always, I'm always learning something. Right. Because where else? would you have heard this? No. Where else would you get that level of detail about something that we all know as a problem? We've not heard solutions for it. And it's like, okay. Yeah.

I mean, we've identified. Our news feeds look very different. Right. Your feeds and my feed is so different. So this stuff doesn't come up for me. I get it when I'm, you know, listening to Rogan. And obviously it's really eye-opening. And, you know, I feel like everyone should tune in a little bit to what's going to happen

in the future with this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's it for this week. We're going to end on that. Guys, check this podcast out with Perry and Rogan. And stay tuned for what they can do with this. We hope good things. And right now, we just want to give a shout out. All the best to our veterans out there or anybody's struggling with addiction and depression and hopefully help us on the way. All the best. And we'll talk to you guys next week. Cheers.