Jono, Ben & Megan - The Podcast - Bonus: Rob McCallum, The Kiwi Who Advised Against The Lost Submersible...

Episode Date: June 27, 2023

We chat to a Kiwi man who advised against the submersible trip which resulted in 5 lost lives.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It seems like the whole world's talking about the tragic and really sad submarine incident that happened while the five people were down trying to visit the wreckage of the Titanic. And joining us right now, Rob McCullum. He's a Kiwi who has broken records traveling to the deepest parts of the ocean. He's been to the Titanic wreckage many times in submarines and had huge safety concerns before the tragedy about what was being done and what was about to happen. He joins us. So whereabouts in the world are you right now and how are you, Rob? Good. We're just about 100km north of Papua New Guinea. It's a rainy old day,

but it's the last day of a two-week trip, so we're looking forward to heading in. Jeez, bloody crystal clear line, 100km off Papua New Guinea there. Yeah, all praise to Starlink. What an amazing system. Yeah, that's amazing. What is Starlink? Is it like the telco system, is it? Starlink is Elon Musk's SpaceX.

So like a satellite sort of thing that's making it. We're getting quite caught up in this, but yeah. Yes. So it's reduced our comms budget from something like uh eighty thousand dollars a month down to five thousand dollars wow huge shout out to musk and the crew eh now rob uh we wanted to talk to you and thank you so much for your time today because you are an expedition leader and consultant as well and the tragic story the whole world's talking about and it's so sad that this happened the submarine has been lost and the people tragically losing their lives but and consultant as well. And the tragic story the whole world's talking about, and it's so sad that it's happened.

The submarine has been lost and the people tragically losing their lives. But even more so sad for you because you knew some of the people that were on the submarine. I did. I knew three of the occupants of Titan, one of whom I'd sailed with for over 20 years on a wide range of expeditions. So, yeah, it's a tragedy for all seafarers, but particularly for the undersea community. The scary part is, you, yourself, you had warned the CEO multiple times that it was

going to end in disaster. Yes, that's correct. You know, on a range of issues, really. The first was the selection of carbon fibre as a primary building material. The issue with carbon fiber is that it's not a predictable material. Unlike metal, which is predictable, and therefore engineers can calculate how much stress it can take, carbon fiber erodes over time, changes over time, and is really reliant on how it was built, what it was built with, and when. The second thing we were worried about was the quality of the materials that were going into the sub. You know, a lot of off-the-shelf stuff from the local hardware shop. And thirdly, the most alarming thing to me was the culture.

When their chief pilot raised a lot of safety concerns, he was not only ignored, he was dismissed from the company, and then he was taken to court. And so that culture of trying to sort of kill the messenger rather than address a safety concern is not a healthy one. What did the CEO say back to you when you did raise concerns? Well, you can read in the emails that he took my comments as a personal insult. He was quite upset that someone was daring to suggest he might be on the wrong path.

And after a while, he became so frustrated with it, he threatened to let lawyers loose. And that's exactly what he did to David Lockridge, his chief pilot. He took him to court and sued his chief pilot you know he took him to court and sued him into a point where he was penalised. A lot of people and everyone seems to become experts on this and no one is like yourself but the controller people are focusing on was just kind of like a PlayStation controller that controlled the sub is that something that is commonly used or something like that? No it's not not common. It's sort of a gimmick, really. You know, all certified subs rely on a direct link between the switch and whatever it is that you're trying to control. So by adding a

remote controller that relies on Wi-Fi or Bluetooth to communicate, you're just adding another link into the chain that doesn't need to be there. For instance, if you have a controller that runs out of battery or loses its connection to the black box, then now you've got a problem. The sub's still operating fine,

but you can't control it. Hypothetically, when the vessel went missing and if rescuers found it, could they have actually saved them? Not in this instance because the sub imploded. If the sub had been entrapped you know on a discarded fishing gear or you know a piece of the wreck itself then arguably an ROV could have got there in time to release them but that's really the only scenario where external assistance would have been of use to them. Without getting too grim, would it have been a quick

ending for them all? It would be instantaneous. It's not so much a matter of a quick death as just you suddenly cease to exist. It takes between two and four milliseconds for the sub to implode at that depth. Wow. And the human brain takes 25 milliseconds to process that kind of information. So you're literally gone before you know it.

Jeez. Well, I mean, if there's any positive to come out of this, they weren't sitting near the bottom of the ocean just waiting. Absolutely. I mean, you'll recall last week that there were lots of reports of tapping and people trying to signal from the sub. And we'd been told that the sub had imploded, and when that was confirmed on the last day, I say to people here that it's the best terrible news I've ever had. It was such a relief.

Are there lessons to be learnt from the company, from what OceanGate did, sending down the Titan submarine? Yes, there are. OceanGate was able to exist by exploiting a number of loopholes, and I would like those loopholes tightened up. The people I would like to come forward and explain their actions is occupational safety and health. So OSHA have had the whistleblowers report for a number of years. They've given it to the Coast Guard, who've had it for a number of years, and yet neither body actually stepped up to the plate and used their regulatory powers to stop this nonsense.

The ocean. I read an article, and there was lots of articles coming out. Have we only explored 5% of the ocean? We've explored very, very little. I mean, it depends how you classify exploration. I think we've mapped something like 25% of it. But of that that we've mapped, I mean, humans have only seen a tiny percentage of it. Now, Rob, you've been down to the Titanic

to see the wreckage many times. You've been in subs and been down in the ocean to some of the deepest parts in the world, world record expeditions. I mean, what is it like down there? Like, what is it? Is it cold? Is it surreal?

I mean, what happens when you're down there? I mean, the awesome thing about Titanic is that she's an incredibly beautiful ship. She's very large and she has the majesty of those old ocean liners. I mean, it's definitely one of the most impressive things I've ever seen. To see the ship sitting upright almost four kilometers down is not something you ever forget. I have been to full ocean depth in the Challenger Deep Mariana Trench which is nearly 11 kilometers deep and the thing that's common in both those dives is that being in a sub is incredibly relaxing. You don't hear anything from the outside world difficult to detect.

So you're sitting in this quiet cocoon and it's a very relaxing experience. Because you helped James Cameron do his trip to the Mariana Trench. A world record attempt, right? I was involved with Jim's expedition. So he went down by himself. Was it the deepest point of the ocean? Is that correct? Yeah, the first sub to do the deepest point

was the Trieste with two on board. They were on the bottom for 20 minutes. Jim did it in a solo machine and he was down for about just under three hours. Does he ever ask you, hey, what did you think of Avatar? And what did you say back? I've known Jim a very long time. He is a very intelligent man.

He makes superb movies. He tells a great story, but also he advances the technology of cinematography. And he's the same way in in the deep ocean world he's not only an accomplished pilot and an accomplished engineer but he's a guy who moves the needle at whatever he turns his hand to he's special guy yeah and he lives here in new zealand we own him now oh yeah we like to lay claim to him now. Can I say we own him? Sounds like we've kidnapped him. And so down there, is it pitch black? Are you seeing other sea life that we don't get to see?

It is complete darkness. Depending on where you are in the world, the sunlight usually disappears at around 250 to 300 metres. And then you're in total darkness. But, of course, you're operating with the lights of the sub and so yes you do see life um life generally sort of life as we know it runs out at eight and a half thousand meters uh there are no fish or bony vertebrates below that depth but everything else every other depth in the ocean has is teeming with life. And do you see, like, monstrous-looking fish, the ugliest fish you'll ever see? You know, you see a range of creatures, and at the extreme depths,

you're seeing things that have never been seen before. And, of course, while we're operating the sub, we're quite busy. We usually have a mission that we're trying to complete. But later on, when we bring the uh the camera footage back because we have 4k cameras running outside the sub all the time that's usually what yields uh all these new species that are that are new to science wow that's is it are you scared when you're at that depth you said it was quite peaceful but it's for for myself and probably jono it doesn't sound it sounds frightening to the average human being. Well, I think it's important to remember that

every sub that's operated commercially in the world is a fully classed or certified vehicle. So I've never been scared in a sub because I know that I'm sort of the point of the spear for a whole team of engineers that have got me to that position. But I never would have got in the Titan sub. That would have scared me to death because I don't have any confidence in that design. Rob McCallum, thank you so much for your time and your expertise this morning. Fascinating for the world and really sad for the world as well. But we really thank you for your time. Thank you. Cheers. Bye-bye.