Jono, Ben & Megan - The Podcast - BONUS: Sir John Kirwan On Why It Is Hard To Watch His Infamous Try

Episode Date: March 26, 2023

We chat to JK after his New Zealander of the year nomination!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sue John Kirwan or John Kirwan you don't like the surname JK JK How are you mate? I'm bloody good, good to see you guys Oh it's always good to see you two at the moment Thank you, thank you guys for all you're doing in the mental health space Well it's great to have these conversations and you do such amazing work

Thank you for everything you do for New Zealand And non-stop, I imagine it's relentless and you just keep going There must be some days where you, you know where that's hard And the conversations you have they're hard but you just keep going which is must be some days where that's hard. And the conversations you have, they're hard. But you just keep going, which is awesome. Yeah, not really, mate. Okay. Take that back.

I really put my mental health first. I've got a really strong discipline around what I call my daily mental health plan or my six pillars. I had three really hectic days. But I just really made sure that I caught up with that yesterday and looked after myself. And, you know, people say to me, why do you put your mental health first? Well, I'm a better father. I'm a better husband. I'm a better friend. I'm a better workmate and I'm a better me. So you've landed on things that you, that help you by now, you know, those things. Yeah, totally. I mean, one of the interesting things I talk about is I've got a monkey brain. I call my monkey Bob, Bob the monkey.

So Bob the monkey can't sit and watch a movie. He goes, yee-hoo, and starts running all over the place. Bob the monkey, if I go to bed and just lie there, he goes, woo-hoo, he's all over the place. So I need to be an active relaxer. So, for example, the three things that i do in my day if i read bob the monkey hates reading right so he goes into his cage and has a banana um i love cooking when i cook bob the monkey hates cooking so he goes into a cage right so it's a form of

it's your form of meditation and meditation can come in all sorts of in all sorts of ways right so it's just focusing in on something that isn't letting your brain get away on you. Yeah, exactly. And we talk about the six pillars at Groove, which is my mental health company. And it's about doing those things. It's about moving. I went to see my mum when I was really unwell.

When you're really unwell, you have these moments of clarity where you don't feel too bad. And I said, mum, I'm dead. I'm dead inside. I hate my life my life don't want to be here and she said well the good thing about your dead son is you're still here yeah well okay yeah and she said can anyone change yesterday and I went no she said can you tell me exactly what's going to happen tomorrow? I said, no. So what do you need to be? I said, I need to be great today, Mum.

I need to be well today. She said, exactly. So you need to smell the roses, right? And if you're my age, that's what our parents used to tell us when there's a problem. And so I drove home and thinking, what's smelling the roses, right? And the next day I had a shower, next morning, and I felt the water. The last time you had a shower, you're thinking about, what were you thinking about? Dropping the kids off. Yeah, the things you've got to do next. JK's coming in. You've got all those things in your head, but you guys deserve those moments

in the day where you can switch off. The first thing I started doing for my daily mental health plan was a shower and I still do it today. A cup of coffee as well. We talked about it before. That's when you remember that from your book. That's one of the things. Exactly. And so you can habit stack, right? So in the mornings, I start my day with a shower and I feel the water. Don't think about anything else.

Don't think about the emails or having to come and see you guys. Just enjoy the water you deserve. And then when I have a coffee, I either read the news and have my coffee and taste the coffee or I just sit there in peace. Because if you do five or six of those things,

and water's moving, you know, it can be doing doing the gardening can be going for a walk well yeah as we've said you've done such great work in too mighty the education program you're getting into the curriculum around schools that's uh that was only recently launched and it's going gangbusters yeah it sort of came from uh I think I've mentioned this around the coffee came from failure you know um I woke up five years ago and I looked in the Herald, actually. I was reading the Herald and I saw our mental health stats and suicide rates. And then on the same page, I saw that the legislation for mental health in the workplace was coming. So I created a digital mental health company for the workplace called Groove.

And then on the mighty side I started doing some investigation in the community we're still not teaching our kids mental health got together for a year raised $250,000 the Joyce Fisher Trust trusted me with that 250 grand I told them the dream facilitated for a year and what we came up with was it needs to be curriculum based don't put any pressure on the schools around resource human or financial it's got to be co-designed right what we did is we raised some more money we gave that money to the University of Auckland they built a curriculum for us we hired teachers who go into the primary schools and what they do is they co-design it for your school and for your area so which i found interesting you were saying before that you know a child's issues or problems on the west coast are completely different from you know

a child in a metropolitan city yeah i mean the the interesting thing and also you know for maori and pacifica how can a middle class white guy think i know anything about their lives while they're going through yeah yeah and so the co-design is really, really important. What might work for Pacifica or Maori or Invercargill or the west coast of New Zealand or Northland. So the co-designed part of it is very, very important. What does it look like for your school? What are some of the stress and pressures you have on your kids? And then adapt it as we go

you know and you talk a lot about parenting nowadays and how different it is to when we were growing up yeah i sort of talk about this you know like um mum and dad would go away when i was growing up you know and they'd come home and i'd always get caught you know they knew i'd smoked mum's cigarettes drunk dad's whiskey driven his car and had a party, right? You know why? Because that's what they did. That's what they did because we were what I call a generation apart. But what I realised very quickly when my kids were growing up is I'm not connected to their world anymore.

The community used to bring our kids up. So the values you had at home, when you went to your mate's place down the road to play, the values were pretty much the same. So if you got in trouble with your mate, the parents would tell you off. There's this whole community. It was a lot easier because the community would, you know, help you bring up your child. But now a lot of that community is online and we don't know how to control that.

And, you know, bullying, I don't agree with any type of bullying, but bullying at my was very very different to online bullying you know what i mean so yeah we we don't know the world that our youngsters live in and it's very hard to understand how we connect to that world when their world is yeah it's still community but it's also online and they get more and more information you know you guys get more inputs into your brain today than your grandparents had in a lifetime wow in a day in a day geez so you think about what your kids are getting you know they in school they're not you know learning from computers internet all that sort of stuff so so it's a real challenge now for modern parents to know how to do that well ben you signed up to a tiktok account he started dancing and we're like mate this is not the way to connect maybe it is i don't know well maybe it's a way to embarrass our daughters now i know jk that you're very you're very humble and but you do such amazing

work and you're nominated for a finest new zealander of the year and amongst some amazing amazing kiwis you're cringing now you don't like this stuff. I'm embarrassed. Are you? Yeah. Yeah, I'm embarrassed. I got knighted, right? Well, the guy rang me. They couldn't find me. I was in Italy. Oh, really?

Yeah. Mum was still alive, so that's how long. And the guy said to me, you know, I'd like to give you a KZSS email. I didn't even know what that was. And I said, oh, what's that, mate? And he said, it's a knighted. And I straightaway said, nah. No way. Don't even know what that was and and i said oh what's that mate he said it's a knighthood and i straight away said no no way not don't want to do that and he said can i give you a bit of advice i said yep he said you should ring someone who you really trust and ask them so i rang my

mum and mum goes i've got two questions do you think it would help one person with mental health if they saw that you are through your mental health journey and you've got this title, do you think it would help one person? Give them hope. I went, yeah. And she said, well, you should do it. Wow, that's good advice.

That's interesting. And the second thing was a little bit harder. But the second question is, are you prepared to dedicate the rest of your life to your community? Ooh, that's the harder one. I'm having a fun time in Italy right now. Yeah'm on yeah i'm having a fun time in italy i'm having a good time gallivanting around the world and so i considered those two questions

and it's a little bit like new zealandery i think um you know way more people um deserve it you know you've seen the other contestants they're amazing people with amazing lives but i'm doing it for the kids if i can raise the profile of mighty if i can help one school or or one kid you know our goal is to have the greatest mental health stats in the world so if i want to try and change stuff then i've just got to try and change stuff well that's why you're up for new zealand of the year see if it was me i'd be like give it to me i'll walk around with a medal i'll be using it to get free food at restaurants you're very humble to sir john o'brien everywhere you go now now john we want to take you back here we've got a screen in front of you here uh we've got john kirwan with us jk's up for a new zealander of the year this is your famous

try that they're always playing on the news 1987 rugby world cup this was eden park first game of the world cup if i remember correctly, right? 3.30 on a Friday afternoon. There's only 13,000 people there. We had this up on the screen as you walked in. You're like, oh, that's right. Now, why does that make you feel like that? Because this is me. As a kid, I mean, I wanted to be you, JK. I had, I

remember having iron-on numbers that my mum used. Number 14 on the back of a, I think it was a knock-off or black top. I put number 14 on, I cut it up and I ironed it on. You inspired so many people. It was such a great moment, particularly growing up as a kid. But why does it make you sort of look back and go, oh. So my anxiety attacks were becoming more and more prevalent.

Really? What would happen back then was I'd have an anxiety attack and then go back to relatively normal. And then one day in 1989, I just woke up and they just didn't go away. That's called depression. But back then I had an imposter syndrome. I never thought I was good enough. And I just thought I was lucky.

And I was waiting for the coaches to realize that I was just lucky. Do you think that happens? I feel like that, sorry to interrupt, that happens to, I have that same feeling. I'm sure you do. you're all the time i don't feel like and so many more people that talk about that you realize that everyone you think is like oh they're the greatest and you don't realize that pretty much everyone has those feelings yeah exactly and and it's actually called an imposter syndrome right and so when i see this try i always know that when i made the first sidestep and went through the gap through there. We'll play it down for you now.

You don't have to play it. Can you stop it? Yeah, I can stop it. So the kickoff, David Kirk caught the ball here. Threw it across Grunt Fox to you. Have a look here. Can you pause it there? You're on your own 22 here against Italy.

And so keep going. Keep going. I feel like I'm on Sky TV here. This is good. Just keep rolling it. You're step one, you're step two. Stop. Keep going. I feel like I'm on Sky TV here. This is good. Just keep rolling it. You're step one. You're step two. Stop.

Right there. I should have changed the ball from the right hand to the left hand. So you can look at that now. This is a try that you ran pretty much 80 metres, stepping the entire Italian team and probably 19,000 in the stands as well. Where's the ball? But you're still picking apart one of the greatest tries of all time. Yeah.

So if I talked about my imposter syndrome. Now you've pulled back around him. You're sprinting towards the line here and boom try time. And right now I'm dizzy. Right now I've got stars in my head because I held my breath. You weren't breathing? No.

The whole run? No. Ridiculous as it may sound when I came off the field, I didn't think I played very well that day. Really? Yeah, I thought I'd had an average game of rugby.

I should have changed the ball from that hand to that hand. So you still feel that moment that was the big thing for you? Yeah, that's why I cringed, right? And I can laugh about it now and I can talk about it now. But in that moment,

when are they going to find out you're not good enough? Will they pick me the following week? And if I said to you guys would I get picked the next week absolutely yeah totally

but in my mind at that time I didn't enjoy it yeah and it's I guess for you it'd be about managing that because in a lot of instances

you can use that to drive yourself and make yourself better but then not let it overcome you exactly you're exactly right when I say

if you want to swim 100 yards really fast get chased by a shark you will win the 100 metre but it will catch you I think as a little boy in Marston watching that

ironing on numbers trying to be like you and you never would have known what was going and it's a good message you don't know what shit people are going through

do you yeah exactly and look I think our mind lies to us so if i said to you did you guys think i was good enough as a rugby player oh hell yeah yeah but if i asked you that question back yeah you know i think you're both amazing at what you do i think you're incredible at what you do i love what you do i think you're really talented i'm waiting for

your new tv show you know all those things yeah um but what's your brain saying to yourself not yeah yeah probably exactly like you so you both stand back this is awkward I feel like how can we cut ourselves down yeah what are you doing so it's good to be humble but also I talk about

when you drive home today are you going to think about the things you should have done better and what you need to do or what you've actually done great? Right. Yeah. This has been like a counseling session, isn't it? Yeah. Very incredible. No, but the truth is, you know, I've still got to remind myself to do, you know, my to done list. Yeah. Instead of going home thinking, shit, I should have done that. What have I done really well today? And those things I started to build into my daily mental health plan. I just call it congratulations to me.

Yeah. You know? And I say it to myself every day. What have I done well today? People don't do it enough. Well, Sir John Kirwan, thank you very much for your time. This has been amazing. Yeah, thank you.

Yeah. I won't say good luck for New Zealander of the Year. No, thank you. No, well, regardless, you've done such great work, and we appreciate your time. It's always fun hanging out, mate. Thank you. Thanks, guys.