Jordan, Jesse, GO! - Shootin' the Bries - Episode 2

Episode Date: May 8, 2021

We're right in the middle of the Max Fun Drive!  Right now is the best time to support all of the Max Fun podcasts you love by starting a monthly membership or upgrading your existing one!We've got something special interrupting your feed today… in 2018, Jordan Morris and John Hodgman recorded an episode of a one-off podcast called Shootin' the Bries for the Max Fun Drive. The former cheesemongers are reunited for another special episode! They chat with Joe Berkowitz, the author of American Cheese: An Indulgent Odyssey Through the Artisan Cheese World. Jordan and John also talk about cheese flavored products, and how their relationship with cheese has changed since the last time they recorded the podcast. Thanks to all our members for making fun stuff like this possible. If you'd like to become a member of our network visit https://maximumfun.org/join/ to learn more! This is an unbleeped version of the Shootin' the Bries, if you'd like a bleep version check out the Judge John Hodgman feed on Maximum Fun.

Hello, I'm Jordan Morris. This is not your regularly scheduled podcast, but rather episode two of Shootin' the Breeze, a very occasional cheese chat show featuring myself and John Hodgman. John and I are both podcasters, but also have both worked in cheese shops, hence the inspiration for this very sporadically released series. Later on in the episode, we'll be talking to author Joe Berkowitz, whose book American Cheese, An Indulgent Odyssey Through the Artisan Cheese World, is now available wherever you get your books. If you want to enjoy episode one of this podcast, you can go to MaximumFun.org slash join and support all the great shows on the network.

That will get you access to the bonus feed with hundreds of hours of bonus content, including Shooting the Breeze, episode one. A quick note about content, we do talk a bit about dieting in this episode. That talk starts around the five-minute mark. If you want to skip that section, head to the around 17-minute mark. Okay, enjoy the show. Jordan, hi. Hi, John. I'm speaking to Jordan Morris, right?

Yes. Hi, it's me, John Hodgman, your friend. Oh, I know you. From the world of friendship. From the world of friendship, and of course, our award-deserving... Yes. One episode podcast spectacular called Shootin' the Breeze. award deserving one episode

podcast spectacular called Shooting the Breeze and guess what this is our second episode we're back 2018 Jordan Morris and I got together because we both had been cheese mongers in our past I had worked at a wine and cheese store in London called

Jarrah Bones where I sold some cheese some a poisse some pavé d'affinois, and also the famous chump cheese, Stilton. And Jordan, you cheesed, monged in Silver Lake? Yes, I monged out here. It was an early job when I moved out to L.A. to try and make it in show business. And yes, I monged at a place called Say Cheese in Silver Lake, L.A.'s hip Silver Lake district. I was terrible at the job.

Could not show up on time. Broke many things. What things did you break? Just little glass things. Little glass things that were around. They also had a little shelf of gift baubles. I broke more than one of those oh yeah excuse me i'd like to get some cheese but also where are your breakables you have a breakables section

why they're right over here whoa and i think we discovered or at least it was our fancy to imagine that since i remembered going to that cheese shop in the year of our god or whatever, 2005 or 6, that I went to Say Cheese. And you may have even munged cheese for me. That is our friendship love story. We never knew what it was going to blossom into. Our cheesy meet cute. Sure, yeah. And by the way, is Say Cheese still there?

Say Cheese is still there, still thriving as far as I know. Amazing given its dumb name, Sorry Say Cheese. And I think it's a beloved local institution, and I have not been in since I worked there because I am terrified of going in and having the owner recognize me and call

me out as being the worst employee they ever had. Well, I can never go there now because I just publicly trashed their name on America's, North America's probably leading every three year cheese podcast. But you know what? I take it back though. Say cheese. It's definitely a cheesy name. That's sure.

Yeah, there you go. know what i take it back though say cheese it's definitely a cheesy name that's sure yeah there you go and i think that in 2006 you know that was before the big artisanal cheese boom really hit hard in the united states do you know what i mean like yeah so i mean definitely say cheese was doing it you know they were you know they're the c the CBGBs of small batch artisanal cheese. Right. It was before every cheese and food institute, like every subway tiled Edison bulbed illuminated foodie place was, you know, named after a rubric that involved an ampersand. Like slate and branch or pitcher and clavicle or something like that they were on the nose but it was fair yeah they were doing artisanal before we were all sick and fucking tired of the word artisanal and they're still doing it because people remember

it's called get it's called say cheese so i take it back you're doing great say cheese thanks for hanging in there thanks for providing j Jordan and I our meet cute as friends. And here we are. Our meet shark cute. Is that something? Does that work? Wow. Meet shark cute.

Wow. Anyway. I think the podcast is over now. Yep. All podcasting, actually. The medium is now done. I think that's it. Yeah.

Everything after this is just a post-credit sequence to podcasting. Right. That's incredible. People are walking. After Meet Charcutte, that's like people walking out of the theater after watching the Winter Soldier get dusted at the end of Infinity War. People didn't know what they saw. Black Panther died. It's over.

It's over. There's nothing. There's no way to come back. People are just walking to their cars, agog. What did I just, did I do? What? Yes, I know. Did I just see that?

Did I just hear Jordan Morris say, meats are cute? Yeah. Well, guess what? Everybody's not over because Endgame is coming. Yes. And it's called Shooting the Breeze, this episode. Maybe our last. It will be.

Yes, like Endgame, it'll be three and a half hours. Feature some time travel stuff that maybe doesn't make sense. That's right. We'll probably try to do a phase three of Shooting the Breeze in a couple of years, but everyone will know the story has really come to a close. There's really no reason. Right, yeah. No offense, Kumail, but there's no reason to do The Eternals.

It's just done. We did it. Anyway, we are going to talk a little bit more about artisanal cheese in the United States a little bit later on in this episode with our guest, Joe Berkowitz, who is the author of a book that's out now called American Cheese, An Indulgent Odyssey Through the Artisan Cheese World. But for now, it's just you and me, Jordan, talking, and I have a question for you. Yes, please. So when we last spoke, things were different in this world of ours. 2018 was a different time. How has your relationship with cheese changed specifically in a pandemic situation where you're not going out of the house a lot and all there is to do

is eat things? Boy, it's true. So I had an interesting beginning of 2020. Pre-pandemic, we were still going outside and hugging like maniacs, just hugging everyone we see, attending coughing contests. You know, we didn't know what was on the horizon. You remember when kids were getting together to doing strep swab swaps man those were the days they'd swab their own they'd swab their own strip and then swap it and then yeah you'd swab your friend you'd strep swab your friend yeah i know that was such a thing that and butt chugging were so big yes i know in 2013 anyway kids, kids. Kids. Kids and their butts. So what's your relationship?

How's your relationship with cheese? I had a cheese-based incident take place early 2020. I had a, you know, just a regular ass doctor's appointment. And, you know, in our debrief, he's like, eh, you know, I should mention you've gained a little weight. You're in a zone where you might want to think about losing some weight. So I tried to take that seriously. So I had, you know, I, through a health plan that I no longer have, uh, had like three visits with a

nutritionist, like at my disposal, which I had never done. So I'm like, oh, great. I'll, you know, I'll start this journey start this journey, this kind of health and fitness journey that I am on by starting off by visiting a nutritionist. I'm on my journey. And so I meet with this nutritionist. And kind of by the time the meeting happened, I had already kind of changed a lot of stuff about my eating habits. And so part of the meeting was I had to give her a food journal of what I had eaten for the week. And I thought I was doing pretty good. I had already kind of like, you know, cut back the carbs. You know, the carbs I was having was like, you know, Dave's killer bread.

You know, not a lot of sweets, not a lot of alcohol. So I turned her in this food journal that I was pretty proud of. And the meeting started with just her kind of perusing it. And she goes, Mm-hmm. Wow, you really like cheese, huh? wow you really like cheese huh in just the the i i boy you wow you huh you're weak you're a you're a weak baby who loves cheese yeah in this way that um i will never forget she cheese shamed you she cheese shamed was your food journal written on pizza crusts?

It was. It was written on pizza crusts and McRibs. Really tough to find a pen that'll write on a McRib, but you can do it. They're on Amazon. This was before the pandemic or during the pandemic? Yeah. So this kind of crossed over during the pandemic. So yeah, I've really been, you know, I've really changed a lot about how I eat. And part of that is kind of looking at the cheese I eat and making sure it's, you know, a little more of a treat. So yeah, so I still do, you know,

love my regular ass white American cheese that the, you know, that the deli guy slices for me. But I've also taken to doing a little bit more farmer's market shopping. I know. And I bring my cloth bags and my cat is a rescue. But yes, I have been going to the farmer's market more. And yeah, and kind of hitting up some smaller cheesemakers. Trying to focus on quality rather than how much you can shove in your mouth at 2 a.m. in the morning.

So yeah, it's been a fun journey, and I think I'm appreciating my cheese when I have it more. That is a journey that I did not expect, because honestly, I think that most people who had been looking after themselves, nutritionally speaking, pre-pandemic, once we went into lockdown, kind of gave up. I'll tell you, I did. Sure. It happened this week that I woke up at 2 o'clock in the morning. I woke up from a sound sleep and couldn't fall back asleep. And I said, I'm just going to go eat some American cheese. And I did it.

Yeah, just sliced, or did you have it on something? Just sliced American cheese. Hell yeah. And, you know, going down to the fridge and having a couple of slices of American cheese is not something I would do at 2 o'clock in the morning. Like, you know, maybe I retire to my bed at 11, 10.30 or whatever, and I read for a while and I realize I need a little snack and I'll go down. I'll just have a slice of American cheese or two, right? There's a middle-aged dad indulgence.

2 o'clock in the morning, now waking up from a sound sleep and going to get that cheese snack that's now already i'm pushing it and maybe because i knew that i was pushing it too far i decided i was going to push it all away so rather than eating american cheese bathed in the light of the refrigerator which is one of the greatest one of the greatest ambiances in in food it's a beautiful image i took it back to bed with me oh my and my wife wakes up she goes what are you doing what's that sound and i realized that just ambiances and food. It's a beautiful image. I took it back to bed with me. Oh my. And my wife wakes up,

she goes, what are you doing? What's that sound? And I realized, I didn't feel the shame until I, really feel the shame until I said it out loud.

I'm eating American cheese in the dark in bed. So that's when my relationship, like I went from- You could have just said, I'm snacking or I was hungry, but you had to lay it out like that with all the descriptors.

That does make it sound more sad, but it's good that you were being honest. That was my food journal and it really opened my eyes. That was only this week. And so I went from a place where I was definitely, I enjoy cheese, but, you know, I was really eating much more healthfully. And really, you know, if I were going to have cheese, I was going to get some Harbison, a beautiful, bloomy rind cheese, you know, and I would put that out on a thing with some Marcona nuts or whatever.

Now I'm just eating American cheese in bed. So, obviously, Jordan, as we discussed last time on shooting the breeze the episode that we and i only remember this because our guest later we've already recorded the interview reminded us the fun peek behind the curtain that we will that we believe that as the cheese is something you enjoy both in its fanciest and in its most humble forms. Right. We are not cheese snobs. We enjoy all of the cheese and everything from the most noble European or artisanal American cheese to the humblest, individually wrapped. The baggiest, pre-shredded. Junk.

It all has its part. It all has its part. It's all part of. It has a role to play. It's part of the cornucopia that is life. Yeah. Does this metaphor work? Cheese is like almost any other food or culture.

Sure. And the low all have something to offer. Exactly. When we are low, we eat high. When we are high, we eat low. One thing I wanted to talk about that I don't know we touched on last time is cheese-flavored things. Yes. Snacks.

Mm-hmm. I guess that's what it is, right? Cheese-flavored macaroni and cheese would be arguably cheese-flavored. Right. What are your top cheese-flavored snacks? Boy. Okay. Top cheese flavored snacks.

Boy. Okay. So in my rethinking of my eating. Yes. Something that I have given up is chips in the house. I love chips in the house, John. Yes. I am perfectly happy to sit in the dark and quietly eat chips. Yeah.

To where the only sound is whatever my neighbor's doing and the crunching of the chips that's one that's a wonderful i would you know what i wish i had that as on a white noise machine i'd fall asleep to that yeah and um and but i'm like this is probably one of the things that i am doing that is not the best for me. So I'm like, I'm going to just not have chips in the house and try and do smarter, more conscious snacking. But boy, these cheddar and sour cream ruffles, I pass those in the supermarket, and I don't want to say get horny because that's gross but i don't i don't i can't think of

many more ways to describe it it is a lustful it is a longing uh it's like smelling an old you know lover's perfume when you get a waft when i look at those cheddar and sour cream ruffles in the supermarket, I am like, fuck health, fuck conscious snacking. I just want them. That's interesting. I don't think I've had. Oh, John, they're good. Oh, think about, you know how good sour cream and onion chips are? Yes.

This is like that, but better because it's cheese. It has a cheese dust. This is like that, but better because it's cheese. It has a cheese dust. I normally don't go in for a cheese flavored potato chip. Yeah. I like all flavors of potato chips for sure. Do yourself a solid.

It was a like junior high vending machine treat for me. In junior high, we had like one like vending machine where you could just get like junkity junk food. And yeah, sour cream and cheddar chips, 55 cents. What a treat. I will have to try that. I'm normally not like a kettle cheddar, kettle chips cheddar, you know, like that. I don't, I don't love that. You don't love the dust.

Well, no, I love, I'll enjoy, I mean, it's arguably like a nacho cheese Dorito. Yeah, sure. No, you're right. Is a classic favorite. But I tend to avoid potato chips that are flavored with cheese. But I'll try the cheddar and sour cream. Cheddar and sour cream, yeah. I would love to hear a review from you. Ruffles, specifically.

Specifically Ruffles, yeah. I think they also do a wavy lay. I think you can also do a wavy lay with that flavoring. And that is my preferred chip shape is the wavy lay. But the wavy lay. Yes. Ruffles, I mean, the ridges are very tight. Right.

I like a more sloping, elegant ridge. Lay's makes a cheddar and sour cream flavored potato chip as well. Yeah. Not in the wavy category, I'm sorry to say. That's okay. Not that I can see. If anyone from the Lay's Corporation is listening. Yeah, how about you, John?

When we're talking about chemically manufactured, artificial, dusty chip cheese snacks. What do you go in for? You know, I would have said, number one, with a spherical bullet, the cheese ball. And I'm talking specifically about... Oh, the cheese ball. I haven't had a fucking cheese ball in years. Those are good.

You can suck on those until they disappear. I like that. I'm not talking about an amy sedaris entertaining cheese ball which is like a cheddar like a large softball of cheddar cheese and port wine cheese stuffed with nuts that you serve at a cocktail reception i'm talking about like a puffy cheeto like a puffy cheeto but in the shape of a ball vacuum vacuum sealed and something that looks like it would hold tennis balls. Yes.

And, you know, Utz, which is one of my favorite snack food brands, even though they refuse to sponsor the Judge John Hodgman podcast over years. That's a mistake, Utz. That's a mistake, Utz. You're leaving money on the table. That's right. Or maybe they're keeping money that they don't want to waste. I don't know.

Utz, more like nuts. Have you done that? Anyway. Oh, right. There we go. like nuts. Have you done that? Anyway. Oh, right. There we go. Guess what? The podcast is back on again. Yay.

Podcasting can start again. Hooray. Jordan should have left it with meat charcuterie, but he went with nuts. You're being nuts. And now we've got a lot of room to play in now. But I grew up eating Planters cheese balls. Planters, peanuts. Yes.

Yeah. Planters had a line of snack food and it went away for a while spoiler alert they're back but for years and years when i was growing up my favorite was these planters cheese balls they also made planters cheese curl which is like a crunchy cheeto which which those are not for me by the way as much as i love cheese and fried things i am a puffed cheeto person a thousand percent i like those big fat worms of puffy cheese flavored corn extrusion yeah but the cheese balls the planters cheese balls were a little denser they were a little bit more like orangey moon-like. They were like cheese, like large cheese-flavored Captain Crunch without the sugar.

Pure savory. Yeah. And you put them in your mouth and they would just chew up the roof of your mouth. Mm-hmm. Like in the Captain Crunch style. Right. If you had a little cut on your gums from maybe brushing your teeth too hard, that dust would just go to the cut like a magnet.

Yeah. That's what happened. That's how I became Cheeseball Man. That's how I got my superpowers. Wow. Oh, wow. I got cheeseball dust into an open wound in my mouth. That's going to be in phase four of Marvel, right?

Please. I wish. Yeah. I'll do anything. I'll do anything. I'll be as strong as. Yeah. I'll do anything. I'll do anything. I'll be as strong as Kumail. I'll do it. I guess probably Cheeseball Man doesn't need to be cut, though.

No, I don't think you need abs for Cheeseball. But maybe everybody just needs abs in those, you know? Maybe it's... Yeah, Cheeseball Man is just me in a yellow t-shirt. So I'm already... I'm in wardrobe, basically. So I love those things so much. Yeah, those are great.

In my book, Medallion Status, I talk about how my love for cheese balls became dangerous because in the culminating scene of the first season of the FX TV show, a Nat Faxon, Judy Greer, Brett Gelman comedy in which I played someone else who was not the main character, but I had a recurring role. And we were all having this party in the backyard of Nat Faxon and Judy Greer's characters. And they, props had put a big bowl of cheese balls out for this backyard barbecue

that was the culminating scene and in the big wide master shot i decided my character was going to get a big plate of cheese balls and eat a bunch of them throughout the scene that's a strong choice john well i i was an still a relative neophyte in acting and shooting TV shows. So my love of cheese balls overcame the common sense. I should have known that if I did this, I was going to have to do this a hundred more times. Because we had established this shot of me shoving a big handful of cheese balls in my mouth. And as we covered the scene from different angles and got different coverage,

I was going to have to do it time and time and time again in the hot sun until I was just a cheese ball. It was, I've never felt more disgusting. Yeah, that is, I guess, why you see, you know, when you're watching movies and TV, why you see people having dinner and they're just constantly cutting their food and very rarely taking bites is because, you know, over the course of a scene, you would have to eat five steaks or whatever. Yeah. By the way, also sounds great. Yeah, that does kind of sound fun. Do you have an estimate of how many cheese balls you ate over the course of that shoot?

Could you ballpark it? Could I cheese ballpark it? Okay. Podcasting is over again. No, podcasting've been canceled oh okay yeah they're like two episodes is too many at least there's far too many episodes of people thought they wanted this uh but they didn't no sorry they were wrong our live ratings are coming in very let's just say not what we were shooting for. I mean, I would say that I probably ate seven to eight balls per handful at the beginning of the scene, and we probably covered that scene, you know, eight times.

Right. So, 64? That's the square of eight, isn't it? That's a lot of balls. That was a lot of balls. I had a lot of balls that day. But did it make me hate them but did it make me hate them did it make me hate them no this was not a donald duck making his nephews smoke a box of cigars situation

no we did that later too with a duck hollywood stories that didn't make it into the book believe me i'll tell you something right when me and that duck fucking raged at the cash party. I alluded to the fact that Planter's cheese balls are back. Yeah. I saw them for the first time at a rest area a couple of years ago in New Hampshire. And there was that familiar sort of like squat Pringles can with the 1980s graphic. Cheat Planter's cheese balls. It even had a little sunburst on it that said, they're back. Right. with the 1980s graphic, Cheat Planters Cheese Balls. It even had a little sunburst on it that said,

they're back. Right. And I bought them very excited. And I don't know whether they've changed the recipe. And this is a really stupid thing for me to say, right? Because I've already pooped on Utz for not sponsoring Judge John Hodgman. I could turn to Planters now and say, this was the taste of my childhood. They're

better than ever, better than nuts. Right. Yeah, you could be like how the Verizon guy went to Sprint. You could do that. Yeah, they'd come running to me. Sure. To sponsor Judge John Hodgman. But I'm going to tell you something. They weren't doing it for me. Well, it's good that your journalistic integrity is intact. I still love the Yutz ones the best. They're the better ones. They're the better balls. I would love to hear about the cheese consumption of the other people in your house. Do the other people in your house love cheese as much as you do?

And also the snacking. Because I think you have kids. And I think that our taste know these kind of vending machine snacks yes kind of get established in childhood what what kinds of snacks are you noticing your kids gravitating toward i'm glad to say that i've not passed along my habit and cursed our children with the eating slices of cheese while standing in front of the refrigerator. Instead, you know, our daughter has a fairly refined taste. And she likes a European gruyere or a comte.

And would like to have that toasted on bread or grilled cheese with some gruyere. Or she's very into making, I mean mean she's an adult now she's 19 years old and she cooks and she makes a lot of really interesting contemporary pasta dishes so cheese is a big part of you know a really like really good pasta dish with a lot of locatelli romano cheese or or or like parmigiano reggiano she's inherited the pretension from me our son is a little bit younger and he's got the metabolism of twin white hot sons so he'll just he'll just grab a container of cheese curds and you know what cheese curds are right i do yes yeah so he'll just grab a container of cheese curds

and go back and watch TV and just eat them all and then, you know, look thinner and more handsome than he's ever looked in his life. And my son will eat a whole box of them. What kind of cheese do you have in the house right now? Oh, actually, you know, maybe we'll pause here. Maybe I'll go grab my latest farmer's market cheese so I can shout out the specific cheesery. Yeah, go get it. But we'll take a break. We'll be right back with more Shooting the Breeze. Hi, I'm Issa Sambrosio. I'm a producer here at MaximumFun.org. I work on Bullseye. I work on

Shooting the Breeze. I occasionally edit Judge John Hodgman. I help out with a bunch of different things here at Maximum Fun. So we're just taking a quick break here from Shooting the Breeze. And I just want to acknowledge that Maximum Fun is a member-supported network. We can't make fun, cool podcasts without your help. So I really hope you'll consider joining Maximum Fun during this pledge drive. It would mean a lot to us, and it would mean a lot to the work we do here at Maximum Fun. So if you're able to contribute and join our network, please do so at MaximumFun.org slash join. Thanks. And we're back on Shooting the Breeze

with me, John Hodgman, and he, Jordan Morris. Jordan has just come back from his refrigerator to show us what his farmer's market cheese, the fancy cheese he's got in his fridge today. What's the cheese? What's the his fridge today. What's the cheese?

What's the cheese of 2021? What's the cheese of this episode? So my, my monger that I've been visiting at the farmer's market is, is the Spring Hill Jersey cheese company. There's a little bag of it right there. This is some raw white cheddar. I've been putting that in eggs and it's really delicious.

Yeah. And this is just, where are they from? Where's Spring Hill Jersey Cheese? Not Jersey. That's the Jersey Cow, I presume. I think so. I think that's probably it. So they are at the Studio City Farmer's Market next to the stall that sells

Indian sauces. Great local recommendation for everybody. But yeah, so yeah, that's kind of something I've been doing is, you know, on this eating a little bit better kick is going to the farmer's market. And also just, you know, seems maybe a little bit safer pandemic wise than going into a, you know, grocery store. It's outdoor, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, so this is my kind of like nice treat cheese um it's a little expensive but um you know look you deserve it sure it's raw it's raw milk and what that means

is that the milk that is used to make the cheese is not pasteurized for many many years you could not get a raw milk cheese in the united states. Yeah. Although that is traditionally how cheese was always made in Europe. With raw milk, you get a lot more flavor, especially the flavor of the local grass that the cows or the sheep or the ewes or the goats are eating. It doesn't get boiled out during the pasturation process, and you get a very, very, very, very small chance of listeria. And that's what I like.

I like the danger. You love it. The danger makes me feel alive. Yeah, you spread that all over your fugu puffer fish and you're alive for once in your life. I eat it on my street luge. No, but, you know, responsibly. Sure. Responsible cheese making with raw milk,

you are not going to get sick. So do not worry and enjoy it because now, as we'll learn more with an interview we'll go to soon, there's a huge artisanal cheese movement in the United States that are making raw milk cheeses because you can't import raw milk cheeses from Europe, but you can make them here and sell them. And they're fantastic. And then my junk cheese that I have in the house is just white American sliced from the deli counter at Ralph's. It's a Kroger. It's a Kroger. It's a Kroger variant. I love it.

You know what? I knew we were friends. I mean, that is my number one junk cheese. It's so good. And yeah, and fucking 2 a.m. bathed in the light of the fridge. That is the way to eat it. That is one of life's greatest simple pleasures. I love American cheese.

I think it's essential for me, a classic grilled cheese sandwich. It's essential for a cheesesteak. That's controversial because a lot of people are partisans either for Cheez Whiz or Provolone for a Philadelphia cheesesteak. I like white American cheese. I'm a partisan for white american cheese i like because i like my cheese the way i acknowledge my privilege white and american i do think it tastes different from yellow american cheese or i do too yeah i don't know if that's actually true

but i also think it tastes better i am a big i'm a big fan uh i used to be a like a craft deli selects white american cheese guy not the individually wrapped but um the the fancier mark that they have there but it's too salty i'm a big lando lakes sliced white american interesting a lot of that i got a lot of that in my fridge but also in my fridge today i'll let you know uh i have a few i'm in maine right now and i have a few local Maine products I'd like to shout out. I've got a Middlebury Blue from Blue Ledge Farm. That's a cow's milk blue made here in Maine. I want to see where. Excuse me, not made in Maine.

I apologize. Made in Leicester, Vermont. I have a Cotswold, which is a farmstead cheddar with onions and chives. That's an add-on cheese. It's a flavored cheese. And that's made here in Maine at Balfour Farm That's an add-on cheese. It's a flavored cheese. And that's made here in Maine at Balfour Farm. They make a very good cheese. And a raw milk cheese, speaking of, from a dairy here in Maine called Sonntal. It's an extra sharp cheddar called Buggy Whip. And

that's made in Wales, Maine. And I also have some Shropshire Blue that was part of a Christmas gift from my mother-in-law that she brought with her from New York from the very famous Murray's Cheese Shop in the West Village. One of the original purveyors of international and fine domestic cheeses. It's one of the best smelling rooms in the world. And we're going to hear about that and more when we speak to our guest. Shall we do that? Let's do it. Our guest is an opinion columnist at Fast Company. His work has been featured in GQ, Gentleman's Quarterly Salon, and The Village Voice. He's the author of three books. The latest is called, guess what? American Cheese, an indulgent odyssey through the artisan cheese world. Welcome to the show, Joe Berkowitz.

Hi, Joe. Hi, thanks for having me. Well, of course. I mean, look, I'll be honest with you. Jordan and I, we were always talking about getting the Shootin' the Breeze gang back together for one last job. Yeah, Joe, this is a heist, by the way.

It's a cheese heist. It's a classic cheese heist. But we needed a reason to come back, and all of a sudden, Joe Berkowitz comes out with a book called American Cheese. Joe, you're the reason we're here. We're here to talk about you and your book. We wouldn't have done this episode without you, so thank you. Oh, wow.

Well, I am so honored to be the impetus for the second episode of a one-time podcast. And what an impetus you are. So Joe, I have a question for you. First, is the Village Voice still around? I think it exists in some zombie form, but it was definitely bought out at some point in the last five years. And the new leadership, everyone I know in journalism is not happy about it. Gotcha. I was always a timeout New York guy. So I didn't, you know, that's where I made my bones.

Guys, let's just scrap the cheese theme and talk about alternative weeklies. Alternative weekly freelance writing in the 80s, the 90s. Well, not the 80s. I never wrote in the 80s. In the 90s, the 2000s, and today. Anybody else a fan of The Good Times out in Santa Cruz, California? The alternative weekly that I picked up in college? What was your favorite column in The Good Times?

Boy, it's got to be, who's coming to the Kumbwa Jazz Center this week? Always a must check out on page 18. Yeah, you got it. Along with the cartoon by Tom Tomorrow. Yes, yes, exactly. I was more of a City Pages man back in the day. City Pages, City Pages, cool. What was your go-to in the City Pages when back in the day. City Pages. City Pages. Cool.

What was your go-to in the City Pages when you sat down on the subway? First thing you turned to? Oh, gosh. Probably the masthead. Yeah, right. Love the masthead. Great masthead. Gotta know who's there.

You did not turn to their cheese column because A, they didn't have one. And B, you were not originally a cheese person. In fact, one of my favorite lines in your book, American Cheese, Indulgent Odyssey Through the Artisan Cheese World, was when you're like, this is a story of how I stopped being a normal person. I'm paraphrasing. How did you go from being a normal person to a cheese person? Well, I always loved cheese. When I was a little kid, I would make these triple-decker grilled cheese sandwiches. When I got older, I would just absolutely crush a cheese plate at a party. But I never really thought about it much more than just the fact that I liked it,

and it was pretty good. Crush a cheese plate in the sense that you knew how to throw some cheese onto a plate or crush it like you ate all the cheese? Good question. B. I assembled a cheese plate haphazardly if ever it came up, but I would be very fastidious about eating as much of it as I could whilst undetected at parties. almost undetected at parties. I love the contrast, by the way, of applying the very, very bro-y crushing it to something as highfalutin as the cheese plate. Yeah, that's right. Oh, I crushed that charcuterie board last night. You don't even know. Oh, bro, bro, bro. I'm going to pound some Chardonnay. You bros want to pound? You guys want to pound some chard? You dudes want to blaze and listen to the Marketplace Money Report?

I raged so hard last night, I stayed up all night and listened to Robert J. Lertzamer in the morning on WGBH in Boston in 1979. Okay, Joe, from your book, I understand that, in fact, you were shamed on the internet for a really basic cheese plate you put together before you got your skills. Before I had the ability to call the bros together to smash some manchego, one time I remember just I was hanging out with friends doing like, you know, what I thought was a very adult, fancy, you know, wine and cheese hangout thing and yeah I picked out I thought the mere fact that I had five different kinds of cheeses would demonstrate that you know I wasn't messing around yeah but uh no I apparently the the ones I picked which were like it was like a flavored cheddar I forget which kind uh there was a Jarlsberg. There was just a bunch of, you know, like basics that you would find at, you know, like a corner health food store. And yes, some dude who I was pals with, you know, who worked in the food industry was like basic ass cheese plate. And I think he was,

you know, just like he was gently ripping me, but I took it as I was like, what would I need to do for this to be up to your standards, sir? What was the name of that guy? Actually, believe it or not, it was Jordan. It was a different Jordan, though. A different Jordan, yeah. Yeah, I would never. I would never shame another man's cheese plate. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Let me say something to Jordan, because I know he probably listens. Jordan, you're an asshole don't shame don't shame joe don't shame people's cheese plates on the internet we were all young once we all thought jarlsberg was fancy once and now look where joe is joe joe has written a book about fancy cheese he's been a cheese he's monged he's been a cheese monger correct joe this is this is true yeah and now now he is the the premier guest on the second ever episode of the the number one cheese podcast on podcasting so jordan what have you ever done jordan other jordan i actually

haven't done a lot so that question actually works with me too but jordan morris you've cheese monged i have i have yeah uh joe that was kind of the impetus of the first episode of this is that John and I both did some time working in fancy cheese shops. So that was kind of, that was, that was the jumping off point of the first episode. Yeah. Which one did you work in and what was your experience like? Well, for me, as soon as I started, as I knew I was going to make a book, I figured one of the things I would have to do was spend some time working in a cheese shop. Getting hired was pretty difficult because all I had going for me was that I really wanted to taste a lot of cheeses throughout the day. So, and that's

not a compelling sales pitch to most hiring managers. You're like, listen, I got this book advance and I have to write this book. Yeah. I probably could have, you know, dangled the publicity angle, but for all I knew, this section wasn't going to be in the book. And it turns out it wasn't in the book. There's no section in the book about me working in a cheese shop. But finally, I realized I had to just specify, you don't have to pay me. I'll just come there and work. And they were like, oh, yeah, sure. Come on.

Welcome aboard, sir. Yeah, it was an apprenticeship. Pretty much, yeah. Well, so let's take a step back. Because in your transition from being shamed by Jordan the asshole, yeah. Well, so let's take a step back because in your transition from being shamed by Jordan the asshole, the cheese knob, to becoming a monger and gaining some expertise of your own, you had an epiphanic experience at Murray's Cheese Shop in New York. And if people don't know Murray's, maybe, Joe, you can explain what Murray's is all about and what you discovered

there and why it set you on your journey. Sure. And I will say for that other Jordan, revenge is a dish best served by having John Hodgman shame you on a podcast. Thank you. That's actually my, it's my whole livelihood at this point. Yeah. Murray's has been around since I believe the 50s or somewhere around there, mid-century America, mid-20th century. And it's just this long established cheese shop that sort of turned into a brand. And they have little kiosks in Kroger. Kroger. Kroger, sure.

Kroger, yeah. Yeah, I don't know why I got that mixed up with Culver's, I guess, because I get cheese curds from there all the time. But anyway, I'm thinking about that place, too. a Valentine's Day special tasting. The most romantic Valentine's tasting ever was advertised as. So I went there with my wife and at first I was disappointed because they gave you these tiny little portions that I thought we were just going to be

kind of like scarfing down as much cheese as possible. That was the idea of the most decadent Valentine's Day ever for me yeah what what what made it romantic was uh shot a there um they probably graced the playlist that night i think what made it romantic is just you know just like you're having these uh you know delicacies these cheeses from uh like top tier cheeses from around the world paired with wines that were like specially selected to go together with also, you know, like the, all the, the rigamarole, uh, Macona almonds and, you know, dried cranberries and well,

dried cherries, not dried cranberries. Joe, what did you learn about cheese in that moment that took you by surprise, that set you on this journey? So to be 100 percent transparent, I had this dual epiphany. So the first epiphany was that cheese is a living food and it changes all the time. And so much has to go right in order for it to come out tasting the way it does. There was so much that was interesting about it that I just hadn't considered before that made me just so impressed with it aside from how it tasted, just knowing that there was just this whole universe of decisions that had to be made and people involved. So that just really caught my attention as an interesting thing.

And then the second epiphany was that, oh, this is a topic that could potentially be explored in a book. So it was, you know, it wasn't purely just like I'm so blown away. And then, you know, after exploring the world for a while, I decided to write a book. It was kind of chasing the investigative muse as well. You're like, I'll either write a book about cheese production or I'll be a roadie for the insane clown posse for a year. Oh, you've read Nathan a year. Oh, yeah. I love this so much. This is so now look, you're not 25 years old.

I am. I'm about 11 years or 12 years older than you. So you're and I know nostalgia is a toxic impulse, but this is taking me back, Joe, to those days in New York City. Freelance writer. All you did was go around and figure out a way to get free food and wonder if there was a book in it. That was the best, best time of my life. Is there a book in this?

Is there a book in this? Is there a book in this? And sometimes there was. And the book you chose was cheese. You chose cheese. And I think you made a good decision because the book is great. Why did you decide to focus on american cheese because when you say american i was a little disappointed because i thought your book was entirely about

sliced american cheese what we call american and i realized oh no it's about the the long but often overlooked tradition of artisanal artisanal is a word that has a bad reputation now and probably appropriately but like traditional good natural cheese making in this country because as you point out in the book you everyone just thinks good cheese comes from europe bad cheese comes from here but you decided to focus on american cheese well i uh i listened to the previous shoot in the breeze and I got to say when you were questioning, you mean our entire back catalog? I, I,

I, I breathed through the entire back catalog. Um, and, uh, there was a part when you were questioning your guest, uh, chef Laurent.

I don't know if I pronounced that right. You did. Awesome. Thanks. Yeah. When you were, you were asking him, uh, about, you know, which cheese is he like? Somewhere in your question to him, it seemed like you were aware that of the whole journey of American cheese, how it was lacking respect, even though it was producing great stuff.

even though it was producing great stuff and only because America is a relatively new cheesemaker on the world stage. And so people don't know to expect that we're going to produce anything of quality. And I certainly didn't. When I started this book, I just was interested in, you know, there's gotta be something in a cheese journey from the point of view of someone who knows nothing about cheese. I thought that was interesting. And then very quick into it, I just realized that I got to the beginning of the realization that what you were describing to that French chef. And so, yeah, I started gearing the book toward that. And then I super

lucked out in that one of the cheesemakers I was following around while researching the book, I was interested in him partly because his cheese was at Murray's that first time, Rogue River Blue. The maker is David Gremmels of Rogue Creamery in Oregon. I was interested in him partly because that cheese I tasted, it won best blue at the World Cheese Awards in 2003. And that was a huge deal. There was a wild year at the World Cheese Awards. Yeah. It's funny because there's like a best of show element to it of like people getting super serious about something like cheese but also yeah it was it kind of rocked the world a bit they didn't expect america to take any prize at all but that was just best blue and then over

the year and a half or so i was researching this book, it all led up to that same cheesemaker. He won best cheese overall at the World Cheese Awards at the end of 2019. So this book covers the year leading up to America, like really making this actual like huge splash on the world cheese scene. That would be like America winning the world cup of european football that kind of yeah trans yeah yeah boy i'll just break in here and say usa usa usa exactly i'm glad you brought up the rogue river blue because i really admired the way you described the flavors of cheese because as a former monger you know it's i had for me it was always a challenge to figure out what things tasted like it's a and the result is when you're writing about food or describing food in any way you could you lean you lean sometimes into the twee or the pretentious or the nonsensical like this thing this thing has notes of pencil

shavings or whatever like no but like when you describe the rogue river blue it's like a secret told by a child it's like a secret told by a child to a corpse uh i i love the way you described it you said this the first word that comes to my mind is dank when describing Rogue River Blue. Hell yeah, bro. Sorry, this guy's back. The cheese, bro. And I'm the way of a dingy basement like a guttural current of whooshing weed buzz. It packs a dizzy drug punch that reverberates through my body.

Rogue River Blue tastes like fruity pebble cereal milk baked into savory fudge that's amazing when you mentioned it is harder to describe cheese uh i couldn't come up with something like that on the spot but you know i definitely did feel as i ate it that like this is good in a way i'm not used to cheese being good. I'm not used to getting a flavor and just having like a visceral, almost emotional reaction. And that's what happened when I ate those cheeses that night.

What were some of the other surprising things you saw, learned, or did while journeying for 18 months through the American artisanal cheesemaking scene? Well, one thing I've mentioned a lot is I, I, I, I tasted guacamole with blue cheese in it. And that was weirdly okay. I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend it necessarily, but I tried it.

It was part of my like willingness to try anything that came up. I would have had, I think it's called casu marzu, which is the maggot cheese. If I could have somehow arranged it to have that, I would have, even though I'm not necessarily looking forward to it. That is not made in the United States. No. That is a Sardinian. Do you know this one, Jordan? The casu marzu? Yeah, I don't.

I'm dying to hear more about it, though. Maggots are involved? Yeah, I believe in the Sardinian dialect of Italian, casu marzu means the walking cheese. And it is allowed to be infested with fly larvae, which then chew through the cheese and do something to it. They make it extra pungent, and you eat it with the maggots in there. Boy, that is fucking metal. That is really wild. Yep. That is probably the bro-iest cheese there is. It is the fucking metal-est cheese. In researching cheese for this book, do you have any insight into the practice of cave aging? This came up, you know, when I was monging.

The funniest descriptor I saw of a cheese was cave aged. And I was terrified of my boss because I was so shitty at the job. So I never got the courage to ask him about cave aging. But do you know anything about why this happens? Is it actual caves? Well, it can be. That's where the practice comes from. When I first heard this at Murray's that first night, I heard them mention this cheese was aged in a cave.

And as soon as they said that, immediately I'm thinking Fraggle Rock, like right away. Yes. I hadn't heard that expression before. I've since heard it, you know, so many times, just casually, aside from in my research. But at the time, I don't think I'd ever heard of the concept of aging in a cave. And what it is, is that a lot of cheeses, like Roquefort, for instance, was discovered in a cave. Like the fungus, not the fungus, the mold that's on it was discovered in a cave.

And, you know, before there was technology, people were aging cheeses inside a cave because the temperature just helped it age just right. And now people will throw around the word cave to describe a man-built or woman-built area that was, it's meant to mimic the conditions and you can adjust the temperature so the humidity is just right to coax the aging along in the way that the cheesemaker or the often newer people who are, their sole job

is to age cheese. So yeah, there are specifications. I'm pretty infuriated by the idea that there are artificial cheese caves. I feel like that should be on the label. I feel like if I'm paying for something that is cave aged, I want it to be in a dank, dank cave underground near some mole people. I, it should be on the label artificially cave age, because I think that's just deceptive. Sorry. Sorry to get on a rant here.

I'm a little surprised that there aren't more billionaire mansions that have their own cheese caves in them. Oh yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Like why don't't why aren't we ever hearing about uh elon musk's cheese cave we certainly heard about wine caves like a year or two ago oh yeah wine caves sure i would i would love to host a uh a fundraising dinner for pete

in a cheese cave so uh what are your favorite american uh born cheeses what are the ones you would put on your cheese board today and then carefully arrange them the finest american cheeses and then shove them into asshole jordan's face if i wanted to um make you can shove them into my face too by the way it sounds It sounds pretty good. Anyway. Either Jordan, really. There's a cheese out of Wisconsin that I really, really like called Pleasant Ridge Reserve. It's made by Uplands Dairy. This guy, Andy Hatch. It's meant to taste like an alpinepine cheese which turns out to be my favorite kind

um you know like the swiss style uh and i guess to diverge for a second you know what we call swiss cheese i've always not liked that at all i thought i i've always thought swiss cheese was garbage but uh the word swiss cheese it's meant to cover a specific kind of cheese called Emmentaler. And actual Emmentaler is very, very good, I found. And it's weird because it has so little in common with what we call Swiss cheese, like the sliced variety. You know, there's some things that are similar, but real Emmentaler tastes like a hit of pure almonds. are similar, but real Emmentaler tastes like a hit of pure almonds. I think I use the expression almond nitrate to throw a pun in there in the book at some point, but that's what it's like. Yeah. Very nutty. Yeah. That's my B minus version of what you said.

Yeah. So to go back, I guess those, so a lot of alpines taste like emmental are kind of you know they have that nutty flavor and yeah one of the the great ones in wisconsin it's uh called pleasant reserve there's the rogue river blue that's like probably my favorite blue that's from oregon uh there's this um place in vermont called uh shelbertms they make amazing cheddar like they're yeah three years really good Jasper Hill has all kinds of good ones Cowgirl Creamery in California I gotta step in on that Jasper Hill the Harbison cheese the Harbison washed rind that they make yeah I'll fall over in a chair if I eat that I can't eat it anymore because I'm all bruised up from falling over and deliciousness. So Joe, as you know, we have our beloved long-running character, Cheese Bro, who was invented very recently for this episode.

17 minutes ago. Yes. What a 17 minutes it's been. Yeah. Already a legend. I think that character would love to hear about your experience with weed cheese. I had heard that there was this big connection between weed and cheese that goes beyond just being hungry for cheese when you're stoned. And after investigating some leads, I found that there was a company called TH Cheese that made solid infused cheese. Yeah. Yeah. And so I sought them out and I interviewed them.

And it turned out that they had been kind of shut down as an operation, but they still had a bunch of weed cheese and they'd found this new venue for it, which is, uh, in, in, uh, the Bay area. Fire festival. I think it would definitely go over well there. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, it was this event called the can of sewer series. It was like, um, every, every month they would have a different kind of food that was infused with cheese and have like this, you know, make an event out of it. And their most popular thing was the TH Cheese edition. So I talked to all parties involved in that and I bought a ticket to San Francisco and I was all set to go. And then they they canceled uh the th cheese event so uh i never got to experience this cheese yeah i i contacted the the the guys

who run it and uh not the the can of sewer series, but a TH cheese people. And I was trying to find any way to like salvage this trip that I had booked. You know, I had an Airbnb, I had a flay. I was all set to go. So I was like, can I come there and you'll just give me some of the weed cheese,

like no event, but I'll, I'll at least know what it tastes like. Cause that's what you're interested in Joe, right? The flavor profile it's got a nutty character and it makes family guy funnier i mean you know i uh looking back i bet it just tastes like not the best cheese like it tastes

like probably okay cheese and then you get high and that's not that interesting. But at the time I disagree. That sounds rad. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Admittedly so. But did you get to try it or no? No. They, I was just, you know, kind of negotiating them for with them for like what kind of experience I could have if I went. And they just said it was too complicated to go get some of the cheese out of storage just for me coming and not like this whole event. When they were complaining about how complicated it was going to be, were they sitting around in the living room wearing a tank top and sandals flops going yeah man i don't know it's just like it's across town it's all in the storage

area across town and i don't even know if i can get over there maybe i could borrow my girlfriend's car but i don't know i don't know man you want some of this uh cheese bd though i got that you can have some of that right now dude in your book you should do a chapter about how rad Donnie Darko is. So I have a question. It says here you have a lifelong fondness for making a grilled cheese sandwich. What's your technique? It's highly personal. Well, I wish I had a better way.

I wish I had a better way. I'm trying to be less lazy with cooking. Like, you know, it's not the easiest cheese to get in America, but my local shop has it. So I have been regularly having that in the apartment. And yeah, that's a Gruyere from the top of a mountain that's only grown or only made over the summer. So it has summer milk. And I can explain the difference between summer milk and winter milk, but that might be a little too much detail for right now. I love a fall milk because you can drink it wearing a nice cardigan. Indeed.

Yeah, right, exactly. Or like a puffy vest. Right, yeah, exactly. So Gruyere de Page is, if you can get it. And then what kind of bread do you use for your grilled cheese? I actually kind of like a brioche bun. All right. And I mean, you know, it's ordinarily, I think I fell into this habit just because I've been picking those up for

hamburgers and just had them on hand and was like, let's give this a shot. But yeah, you flatten them a little bit like, you know, sort of panini style after slathering them with butter and, you know, put a little, little black pepper on it and uh yeah it's delicious yeah and are you putting them into a panini press or what are you doing oh oh not an actual panini just kind of flattening a bit yeah and then you cook them in a skillet yeah and if i um i learned this from that guy uh from david gremlins of uh rogue creamery putting a little bit of blue cheese

into your grilled cheese sandwich just adds like a bit of spice. And, you know, if you don't ordinarily like blue cheese, definitely don't do this because it's not going to make you like it more. But if you already do like it, I don't know, the contrast between that and the Gruyere, it's pretty good.

I don't do it every time, but I do it sometimes. That sounds like a solid, that sounds like a solid special Joe Berkowitz special grilled cheese that I'm going to have to give it a try. When you're making this grilled cheese, your, your lube of choice, you mentioned butter. A lot of people are fucking with mayonnaise these days. Do you have an opinion on how to lube the pan um i haven't tried it

with mayonnaise yet but i would uh when i was you know uh i grew up making those grilled cheese sandwiches and yeah i did use mayonnaise when i was grilling them but i think that had more to do with like i was uh an obese child and i think that was rather that than like a gourmand sensibility where did you grow where did you grow up i grew up in orlando florida and you were putting mayonnaise on you were you were cooking your grilled cheese with mayonnaise yeah triple decker mayonnaise on each deck oh oh oh oh wait a minute wait what's the that's what are the what are the decks in this situation hey hang on let me let me talk to jesus for a second our producer jesus uh we're gonna need another 45 minutes for this talking about triple decker

tell me tell me your triple decker uh little little joey i'll call this the little joey from before the gruyere de page era joe we got a lot of characters in this interview there's asshole jordan little joey cheese bro cheese bro a cast of thousands give me joey orlando's little joey orlando's triple decker little joey orlando mayonnaise bomb that's a guy that's a guy who's introduced at the top of an episode of The Sopranos and then dies at the end. Little Joey Orlando. Tell me the recipe. So it really is very simple. It's just Kraft single mayonnaise bread.

I guess I should say there was a piece of bread underneath that. And then, yeah, it's just... So let me see if I get it. No, three slices of bread or shoot. Was there... I think what I was doing was experimenting by adding to it.

So first I made a double decker and then at one point, I definitely went for the triple decker. I think maybe it was just messy and a little, you know, I think I realized I had Icarus and like, you know, flowing too close to the melty yellow sun. You had deckered too close to the sun. Sure. It's an important lesson about hubris. You're talking about white bread, lesson about hubris you're talking about white bread craft yellow craft single mayonnaise white red yellow craft single mayonnaise repeat repeat repeat until done and then you would toast that in a in a skillet on the stove top right yep and but here's my question the the oil that you're

using on the exterior you know that you're that you're melting in the skillet and that you're using on the exterior, you know, that you're melting in the skillet and that you're spreading on the top piece of bread, is that butter or is that mayonnaise? Oh, okay. Yeah, the mayonnaise was a between decks situation. We're using butter on the pan. And we're using plenty of butter too the journey from little joey orlando's triple decker mayonnaise bomb to the gruyere gruyere de page brioche with a sprinkle of blue cheese the joseph berkowitz the the sophisticate that's what i call that that's what i call that grilled cheese joseph's sophisticate it's very hard to say it's never going to take off, but I love it. Joseph's Sophisticate. It really beats the hell out of the little Joey Orlando sandwich.

Well, the journey is all, and the journey's fantastic. And I really enjoyed reading the book and talking with you. The book is called American Cheese, An Indulgent Odyssey Through the Artisan Cheese World. Thank you very much for joining us, Joe. Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. Hey, producer Jesus Ambrosio here one more time. We're almost at the end of Shooting the Breeze, episode two. And once again, I just wanted to remind you about the Max Fun Drive.

This is the one time of year when we ask people to become members of Maximum Fun. So I hope you'll consider becoming a member of Maximum Fun so we can keep making cool, fun stuff like this. Your contributions make our work possible. Again, if you'd like to make a pledge during the MaxFunDrive, please go to MaximumFun.org slash join to become a member today. Thank you. Well, Jordan, that was our conversation with Joe Berkowitz and his book, American Cheese. I hate to say it, especially since we probably won't speak again for another two or three years. Right. But we're almost out of time here on Shooting the Breeze. What's going on in your world that you'd like listeners to know about?

John, something kind of exciting that I would like people to look out for is I co-wrote a graphic novel that is coming out in July, July 13th. It is called Bubble. It is a graphic novel adaptation of the scripted comedy podcast that was on MaxFun in 2018. Good year for MaxFun, huh? Episode one of Shooting the Breeze.

And John, you actually did a voice in that podcast. I know, I'm a cast member. You're a cast member. And you were nice enough to write us a blurb for the jacket for the book. So I really appreciate that. The world of Bubble is one of my favorite worlds. Frankly, it's one of my favorite jokes. my favorite worlds frankly it's one of my favorite jokes you all took the very tired boring trope

that young people live in their own bubble and literalized it to a future dystopian scenario where a bunch of young people live in an actual bubble to protect them from the monsters that live outside the dome yes it is a it is a little, it is kind of a sci-fi version of a Portland or a Brooklyn or a Silver Lake. And yeah, it's got lots of swears. It's got lots of gore. It's got monsters. It's got robots. I co-wrote the graphic novel

with the great comedy writer, Sarah Morgan. The art is by Tony Cliff, a great, great comic book maker who does the Delilah Dirk series. And the colors are by Natalie Reese, who does a great kid series called Dungeon Critters. And yeah, just an awesome team. I'm a lifelong comics fan, so getting to do this was a literal childhood dream come true. Yeah, and people should look out for it.

You can pre-order that wherever you pre-order books. Maybe call your local indie bookstore or comic book shop. And as for me, I've got the Judge John Hodgman podcast coming out each and every week. It's not a podcast that comes out. It's not like one of your regular podcasts that comes out every two or three years. It comes out weekly. Weird. Weird.

We pretty much decided that we would just do it. We would just do it every week. Okay. Wednesday afternoons. You will find it in your feed if you subscribe at MaximumFun.org. The show is called Judge John Hodgman. We've been having a grand old time resolving people's petty disputes and just having fun with my friend and yours, Jesse Thorne, the co-host of Judge

John Hodgman and the Jordan Jesse Go podcast. And of course, we started Shooting the Breeze Loathes many years ago as a thank you to all of our supporters of Maximum Fun, the network to which we belong. We couldn't do it without your support. Go ahead and go there, maximumfun.org slash join, Go ahead and go there, MaximumFun.org slash join. If you want to throw some support to the network, to the shows you love, and you get all kinds of wonderful members-only content, like Shooting the Breeze and many other special bonus episodes from all your favorite shows, thank you very much for making this possible.

Jordan, thanks very much for taking the time to talk about cheese with me. John, it's been a treat. Oh, before we go, I just need to clarify for everybody. Yes. I love the sound of little Joey Orlando's mayonnaise bomb. But when you were talking about mayonnaise on a grilled cheese. Yes. You were talking about something that has become a little bit more faddish lately.

Right. were talking about something that has become a little bit more faddish lately right but was always a new england specialty which was to make a grilled cheese in the traditional way you know white bread right yellow american or white american cheese in in between and then you would butter each side of the exterior sides of the bread and toast it in a griddle in new england because we love mayonnaise that much, we skipped the butter. We would spread mayonnaise on the exterior slices of the bread and it crisps it up so good. Right. As they would say,

as they would say in Boston, it's goddamn delicious. So that's what I'm leaving. I can hear everybody's brains exploding. Thank you, Jordan. It was great to meet Charcutie you again. Shooting the breeze is an occasional cheese podcast for maximum fun. Everybody's brains exploding. Thank you, Jordan. It was great to meet Charcutte you again.

Shooting the Breeze is an occasional cheese podcast for maximum fun. Interstitial music provided by Dan Wally, also known as DJW. Thanks to Reddit user slash funchog, P-H-U-N-T-S-H-O-G, for the name of this podcast. Our producer is Jesus Ambrosio.