Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - George Hahn

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Meet George Hahn: humorist, urbanist, satirist, soloist, bicyclist, mid-century modernist, and all around fascinating NYC figure! Check out his podcast Hahn, Solo, a podcast that he does himself (solo). The topics range from city living, entertainment, media, style, dogs, wellness...whatever is on his brilliant mind. For everything George Hahn go to https://georgehahn.com/. Listen to George Hahn, and EnJOY!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson, on my own, standing on a stage, telling comedy words. Come and see me. Buy tickets. Bring your loved ones. Or don't come and see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but you should at least know it's happening. And it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at thecraigfergussonshow.com slash tour. They're available at thecraigfergussonshow.com slash tour or at your local outlet in your region.

or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. My guest today is a gentleman of extraordinary style and wit and grace and humor. He is very, very clever with a very interesting take on life. He has a visionary style and wit and grace and humor. He is a very, very clever with a very interesting take on life. Of course he lives in New York City and of course he's originally from Cleveland. And of course he is George Hahn.

George, congratulations in all the time I've been doing this podcast, which is not. You're the first person who was there. Really? Yes. That's because I'm eager and excited to speak with you. Well, I think that's believable. And also the, I think you're the only person I've ever had on this only guest I've ever had on, I think anywhere. Where I don't know you except from social media. I only know you from social media because I have to make a confession to you. You are my lockdown internet boyfriend.

It's 100 hundred percent true. God, that's the hottest thing anything, anyone's ever said to me in the last five years. So thank you for that. I was in Scotland during the lockdown and you were making these stylish, angry, passionate, but also very cool little videos in New York. And I was like, ah, fuck,

I wish I could get back to New York and live in an apartment in the Upper West Side with George. We'd go to the opera, we'd go and see things. We'd go and see, I have this idea of you that you are a complete Upper West Side, stylish kind of sophisticated. Tell me I'm wrong or tell me I'm right. Well, I'll tell you something.

It's strange that you bring that up. I was thinking today that I'm starting to sort of become that person in the weirdest way that I never, that was never on the itinerary. For example, I will tell you, as we record this tonight, I am going to see, no, no, no, let me rewind. Earlier this week, I went to the opera, I went to the Metropolitan Opera House and I saw a production of Tosca. I'd never, I haven't been to the opera in maybe 10 years. So it's so funny that you're

mentioning this now because I just went back to the Met for the first time in a decade and it was glorious. My friend is a, he's a sober buddy of mine and he said, let's go to the diner, old school. And then we went to the opera all dressed up and had this amazing, fantastic night. And I just felt so like nourished creatively. And then tonight to see, are you sitting sitting down you're sitting down and you're wearing a tie and everything tonight I am going to Radio City Music Hall to see none other than Barry Manilow so. You fucking bastard.

Treat me the same treat me the same. I I my god I lost the first time I was ever nominated for an Emmy or for anything really I lost it to Barry Manilow or he won it. I was in the same category as him for a moment though. Apparently late night shows and and Barry Manilow's were lumped together at one point in the history of show business back in the day. But he rightfully won the best Barry Manilow award. But here's the thing.

I went to the opera last year. I went to see Labo M at the Met. And I have a problem with that opera a little bit because that woman that says that she's got TB and starts singing about having TB, she doesn't look to me like she's sick. Yeah, she looks a little too good. Yeah, she looks pretty healthy. Yeah. Robust character.

Right. Are you a fan of the opera? I am peripherally a fan of the opera. And what that means is that for years, I was making websites just to make a living because it was a skill I had in my pocket and one of my clients was a manager of opera artists. So I got familiar with the names of them, the composers of them and got very familiar with you know what each of them sounded like because I was uploading audio and video samples

of performances. So this guy represented, yeah, directors and singers. And yeah, in fact, one of his clients was Charles Nelson Riley. Oh. He wasn't in the opera, but he sort of was in a way. He was a director. He directed productions. Did he really?

I didn't know he did that. He was, when I was a young wannabe actoreen in the early days in New York City, we're going back to 95, 96, 97, I was also a waitress at Joe Allen, of course. Wow. On West 46th Street Theater Row, still a favorite personally. Anyway, and Charles Nelson Riley at the time was directing a production of The Gin Game with Charles Durin and Julie Harris. And he used to come in during runs of that show, during the run of that show, come in

and harass. Like today, he would have been slapped so hard with a lawsuit, like practically pinching us in the ass. Oh yeah. As we would walk past the table, he would go, run Cinderella, run Cinderella. And I, you know, some of the other kids had a problem with it. I thought he was hilarious and I love it. Yeah.

It would not be acceptable today. No. It would absolutely not be. I think a lot of, a lot of people I worked with back in the day in theater in London, it would have been tricky for them now, I think. Pretty tricky. I would imagine. Enough of that.

Let me ask you this because as far as I can glean from social media, which is the only way I know you, although I think, and this is, consider this podcast, me applying to be your friend. You're in. All right, great. So this is my application, but as far as I've found out about your work and glean from your posts, you're from Cleveland, right? Correct.

Yeah. So you're from, are you from shaker heights of Cleveland? No, I'm on the other side of the town. Shaker Heights is a Western or rather East side suburb. I'm from a West side suburb called Lakewood. Is that the, is that posh? Cause I thought shaker heights is posh. Shaker Heights is posh.

But Lakewood is not posh. No Lakewood was always working middle class. There were some Lakewoods, now Lakewood's got some posh pockets to it. But by and large, if you took that whole zip code, it would, I would call it staunchly middle class. All right, so you grow up, it's a very kind of, you tell me how it was. I think of you as probably being in a kind of

Aussie and Harry environment, is that right? Is it, was it, or a little more American Gothic? What was it? I would say maybe a little bit of both. I think my parents looking back were just sort of alarmingly normal. There was no, like in my upbringing, like in our nuclear family, I'm the youngest of five.

My mother was married and widowed before and had four kids when she met my dad. So my older siblings are technically half. And we had it pretty good, I say. I would say that we were, I think, fairly punished when we screwed up, and never physically, and we were rewarded when we did things very well, and we were loved, and birthdays were like almost embarrassingly celebrated. Like, we had it pretty good, I would say.

So what leads you, what led you in? Cause I feel like you're a theatery person and that's a very specific kind of kid. Were you a theater kid? I was a performative kid. I was never, the first time I engaged in anything theatrical with a stage and a script and a director was in college.

But the Hans themselves are funny. We have a, like my dad was funny. You know my cousin, Catherine Hahn. I do. She's crazy, Catherine. She's delightful, but she's nuts. Welcome to the family. Very nice.

Yeah. And she adores you. I adore her. It's a love fest. We have to get together and have a hug fest. I think that maybe the Hans and the Ferguson's should maybe have a Thanksgiving together or something. I think that's a-

I am down for that. I mean, we've moved back to New England now, so we're American again. I think we can do that. You are? Yeah. I was in Scotland for a while and I was like, no. I think Proust, you know, I got a bit researchy, my Tom's Purdue. And I think, no, no, you cannot go back.

I was just in your country not long ago. You were? What were you doing? I have a friend, my friend Scott Galloway celebrated a birthday for himself, a 60th, he called it a 50th birthday, in a beautiful old hotel in Braemar. So for 48 hours, we were at the Fife Arms Hotel. It was incredible. You know, the nearest- That's where the queen died, I think, in Braemar.

Might be right. We saw the king and his motorcade on our way to the airport from the hotel. They've got a big house there. Yeah. Is it Balmoral Castle? Balmoral, yeah, I think that's it. Balmoral.

He literally drove past, I saw him in the back seat of his car because they'd stopped our traffic because we were en route to Aberdeen Airport and there was the king. Did you have a nice time? Was that your first time in Scotland? Totally. And I thought I was so charmed by it. Could I live there full time? No, I like the sun.

And I like a salad now and then. But I love it. It's beautiful. Oh my God, Craig. It's like that. It's like Skyfall. It is beautiful. It is beautiful.

Yeah. It is like Skyfall. I actually, I love Skyfall as a movie. For me, it's my favorite Bond movie. You and me both. Even including The Conneries, which is, it almost feels heretical to say that. But it was the Bond movie that made me cry. Yeah. And also I felt I it's the first time I really identified with James Bond and he's looking at the bleak beauty of Skyfall and where he grew up and he says, I hate this place.

Yes. Let's just torch this house. Let's torch this house. Burn it. No light coming in. Oh, no. But I didn't come from the kind of dramatic part of Scotland. I came from the Cleveland of Scotland. I see.

So how did you get into, are your family, I mean, Catherine is very show, not show, but she's very theatrical and very... She always was. She was on a local TV show and she did local theater. I was always embarrassed. The West side of Cleveland to compare, cause Catherine grew up on the East side of Cleveland, you know, our dads were brothers.

Her dad was Bill. He just died this year. On the same date, my father died 34 years ago. But so they grew up in the same house, obviously. And then Bill went to the East side. Ultimately, my dad stayed on the West side. The East side where Shaker Heights is, Cleveland Heights seemed to have a much more liberal minded and it might've been the liberal,

intellectual Jewish community. I don't know what it was, but like the sort of Bohemian crowd was all the way on the East side, particularly in this neighborhood called Coventry. That's where the art house movie theater was. That's where the museums were. That's where the cool record shops were. That's where you could get vintage clothes. The West side where I came from, it didn't have as much, it was a little more

conservative, a little more, um, yeah, not as expressive artistically, I would say, and not as liberal. That's a fair statement. You mentioned your father and I saw a media post or something you posted some time ago, it was rather moving, a post about your father taking you to New York City. Was that the first time that you went? Was your father interested in in the theater? Was he all that?

So that's where you got it from? Yeah, he was an actor. I have an award of his sitting on a chest in my room. He was an actor in local Cleveland. He's a proper actor. He won awards. I've never won an award for acting. He went to Notre Dame. He did theater there. He was in the theater with Phil Donahue of all people. What?

Mm-hmm. They were at Notre Dame around the same time. And then got into, he went into the Navy, did some performances in the Navy. I think he wanted to go into acting professionally, but I think his father, my grandfather, kind of talked him out of it, you know, just in terms of, oh, you're going to just setting yourself up for failure kind of thing.

It's generational. And so my dad went into advertising and marketing and he was good at it. And that's what he ended up kind of doing. Did he look like John Hamm and Matt Met? He was more interesting. You say that he wasn't the creative end. He was literally Pete Campbell, not minus, minus like he was an account executive. I think Pete's title on his business card was something like account executive and that was my dad. So he was not, you know, when you had Mad Men, when those agencies were in two parts, there was a creative in the business, my dad was kind of more on the business side, but

they did, you know, intersect. What I pick up from your style is very kind of like, it's very classically like that very kind of, um, you know, uh, well-cut suits and ties and good shoes. And I feel like, I feel like there's alcohol in there as well. Is that? Yeah. Is it, but you correct me if I'm wrong or tell me to shove up from crossing the line, but you're sober, right?

22 years. Wow. Yeah. Well, that's great. Um, runs in the family. Yeah. It's a funny thing. So was that, were you drinking when you went to New York?

When I got here, yeah. I moved here in 94 and I didn't get sober till 02. Yeah. Yeah. That would be right. I, I, I get sober. I, I'm 32 years sober. Look at us.

Yeah. But can I tell you something? What? Because I always had this sort of act, this image of an aspiring actor that sort of that Richard Burton ideal, brooding a little messy and dark and chain smoking and just terminally miserable, right? Always cloudy, always cloudy in my snow globe.

And that was sort of what, you know, everybody wanted to sort of be like that and look like Al Pacino in Carlito's Way, like just very sort of angry, bitter, out of work. Anyway, I was fortunate enough to do an episode of Sex and the City, and then like after that wrapped, there was a party, and the show runner, Michael Patrick King was at this wrap party as well

I'm sitting at a table with him. I'm not sure how or why but They're passing around martinis. The servers are giving away martinis and cosmopolitan what-have-you and I am on antibiotics I don't give a shit. I took another martini. I'm getting well on my way to getting smashed and Michael asked for a club soda and I said, you're not drinking tonight. And he said, I don't drink at all. I said, ever? He goes, I've never drunk. And I thought this guy, and I remember this clearly, this guy, and this is two and a half

years before I ultimately got sober, he is highly functional, creatively vibrant, successful, happy in the mix of this business that I want to be. I want to be in the mix like him. And I thought this guy who doesn't drink is onto something and the not drinking thing is part of it. And I remember a seed was planted that even though I had sober parents, I had like, yeah. So the drinking thing was very tricky for me for a long time. Yeah.

I think that I, I very much believed the myth of, you know, that the alcohol and the, you know, I did cocaine, but only as a kind of vitamin to drink more. It wasn't really like a proper cocaine addiction. It was more kind of like a side hustle for the main event. That's why British people do so much cocaine, by the way. It's not because they like cocaine. It's just that they can drink more while they're taking cocaine. That's what it is. It's like, oh yeah, let's do a little bump. But it's not like, it's not like doing a bump in, you know, in New York or in Los Angeles or Miami. It's like, well, we're never gonna go down the path.

Um, but that being said, I fell for the myth of the drugs and the alcohol make you loose and creative. And it was, it took me a while to figure out that people who were creative and successful, and usually it was some kind of tortured genius, were doing that despite the drugs and alcohol, not because of it. It was like their talent was so profound that it was, it was kind of cutting through, because I really don't buy that myth anymore. I really, I think it's fucking horse shit.

The, you know, Picasso was a great artist. Mugdigliani is a great artist. Mugdigliani dies in the street and is, I guess it is 30s or 40s. Picasso lives to 90 and keeps, keeps doing things and is, I guess it is thirties or forties. Picasso lives to 90 and keeps doing things and keeps, you know, keeps changing. And I wonder if young people now are still buying into that. I feel like you might be a bit more plugged into that world than me.

Do you think so? I get, I'm mystified. I can't remember specifically what it was, but I remember years ago. Coming across an ad for some kind of liquor, whether it was a va might've been a gin or a, a rum. I don't know. It doesn't matter. Anyway, the ad featured Ernest Hemingway.

I thought, wait a minute. And the alcoholic who blew his head off is your spokesmodel. I'm sorry. There's a disconnect here. Like this, these guys who are extolled as you're, you know, you're brooding like male archetype heroes. He was a mess. Richard Burton was a mess. Yep. These drinker, Jimmy, Judy Garland, Marilyn, Monty Clift, beautiful, creative, vibrant souls. But I would imagine after a certain point to the people who love them, the people in their lives, I would imagine were exhausting and burned people out like rice paper.

Oh yeah, I'm sure. And also the thing that, I mean, I think I was pretty good at this is putting on some kind of show while I was drinking in public. You know, it was only after quite a bit of time. And I guess when it became obvious that I had a problem, but I would pretend even to myself, I was having a, you know, I was living a wild life and having a great time. Same.

The fetal position at four o'clock in the morning, naked in your hotel room crying, it's not something you share with people. It's just like, guess what I did last night. It was awesome. Yeah. Or being in that position with someone else in the room. Gorgeous.

Sure. Who's another one like- The look of pity on people's faces. That's what I hated. Jesus, I hated that. When, when they would just look at you like, what the fuck are you doing? If I could remember that, my biggest fear was the next day or days after hearing about what I did or said.

That was so unnerving to me. Yeah. That's why I took cocaine and took blackouts away. Oh, see, had I only known or had some extra cash? Well, cocaine or if I had known about prescription lens sunglasses, I think I might still be drinking actually. I didn't know there was such a thing as you could get prescription lens sunglasses. And if I had known about that,

I'd be like, oh, what the hell, it's Frank. See, they don't talk about Sinatra is another one. I don't know if he was an alcoholic, but I mean, he was a drinker and he looked like it. After a while, it physically takes a toll. And you look at Frank in the seventies, as opposed to Frank in the early sixties, almost a different guy. He looked like a pin cushion. Like really that brown, that brown bottle tan takes a toll.

But there is that kind of huge, I mean, you, you meet with a lot of aggression from, uh, people who have alcohol problems who don't want to, like if you say I'm sober and I'm sober because I want to be sober, it's like, oh, I, you know, it's like you somehow copped out or it's like when I say to people now, look, like I'm not, I'm not stupid. If drinking was more fun, I do it. I stopped having fun. It wasn't fun anymore. No, not at all.

And it stopped kind of working as well. It stopped kind of, you know, like I would, I used to be frightened of flying and I would drink on airplanes to deal with that. And then I found out I was just drunk and scared. It did, it did nothing other than just that. How are you now with it? Do you, are you very, uh, connected to sobriety? Do you attend to it a lot and stuff?

I mean, I'm kind of dancing around the traditions of... I do. I have a... Let's just say I did not do this alone. My parents went that same route. But you're paying sober when you were a kid. Yeah. My dad got sober when I was four. My mom got sober when I was five.

So you don't really remember them drinking that, right? I have a very, I don't have a memory of my mother drunk, but I do have a very vague memory of my father passed out on a couch in our house and I couldn't wake him up. I remember pounding on his chest. I have a vague memory of that. And to this day, the smell of scch makes me think of him, even though I have no real clear memory of him drinking, but the smell of Scotch that sense memory makes me think of dad. And that was his drink.

And I guess, look, I feel like you live an urbane life. Is that, would that be right to say that you live a kind of a city life? Oh, for sure. I love city living. So you probably run into it quite a lot, right? Oh, all the time. There are many times when I'm like in this birthday weekend in Scotland at Five Farms. I was of like the hundred guests, because we kind of commandeered this hotel for 48 hours. I think I was one of maybe three total people who weren't drinking.

And you know- Probably in the whole of Scotland. Yeah. Literally when we went to do like the hunting, or not hunting, we went to shoot air rifles and throw axes into archery. Turns out I'm good at archery. We were given sips of like, the reward is a sip of whiskey.

And I just, I'm the one who's always passing. But yeah, it's just, it is still weird to people when you don't and they kind of look at you sometimes like a broken slot machine, like, how do you do this sober? I'm like, I just do. How about performing? How about working as an actor? Did you find it a big change once you got sober?

I found that less and less. My inhibitions went away more and more year after year, I would say. I have become, and maybe it's just age, but I have become less inhibited, less self-conscious. Like the videos I became known for making on social media, you know, I'm basically doing a selfie walking down the street. And 10 years before that, even five years before I started doing them, I think I would have been too self-conscious to actually do it and I would have given a shit what somebody thought of me looking at me on the street.

Now I don't care. Do you look at the comments and stuff when you post stuff? Not as much anymore. I used to because it was like, I mean, validation from strangers is like heroin to me. Yeah. But not as much anymore. I just, I do want to know that it's being liked. But I don't read, I will look at comments from friends and those tend to get filtered

to the top, thankfully. Right. Because it's a sort of a form of high five and communication. And that's lovely. But strangers, nah. It's funny. I noticed that I had to stop reading them because I would skip past comments that were positive to find the negative ones.

Isn't that fun? Yeah. I think that's some kind of twisted narcissism, I think. And I don't like it in myself. I, it's just like- Do you have imposter syndrome? Yeah, yes. Yes, definitely.

The idea that, you know, I'm not funny, I shouldn't. Yeah, all of that. Yeah, all of that. Oh, God. Do you have that? Terribly, all the time. It's funny, I think of you as being super confident. I'm good at faking it. I'm very good at faking it.

Yes. I will go into a room knowing that I'm fine. Technically I know I'm fine. Like I'm cool. I got the goods to sort of hold my own in this space here, but there is that dark voice on one shoulder saying, you suck. You're not funny, you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough, you're not talented enough. But I also know that if I don't fake it, nothing's going to move.

So I have this weird wherewithal to know that I have to sort of power through a very unconfident moment if anything is going to come out of it. So I take that route. I got a bit of a sea change with it fairly recently because I started doing a lot of stand up. I've always done stand up comedy. I mean, I've done it my whole career and I love it. And I love the kind of solo work.

I love being on a stage on my own. And I got very tired of the corporate mindset, not just when I worked at CBS for a long time, but also it seems like everything is corporate. Like young people will talk about their brand. Like, I mean, what are you talking about? You know, and like everything is a something that Norman McDonald accused me of once that he said I was a seething cauldron of ambition. And I think he's probably true, but yeah, but I'm not anymore.

But yeah, but, but I'm not anymore. I, but I, but I think that's quite a popular look and I, I, I, I reject it, but I got, I had this conversation with, with, uh, uh, Jay Leno, cause I was talking about trying to memorize a standup thing and he said, Hey, just keep talking. Just keep talking. Nobody knows what you're meant to be saying. So just keep talking. They don't know the act. Just keep talking.

Do that in your act, because that's great. But what I can love about it is, it's kind of true. If you can think, I'm meant to be here, this is what I do. Clearly, I've been doing it long enough. This is what I'm meant to be doing. I was meant to be doing something else, I've been doing it long enough. This is what I meant to be doing. I was meant to be doing something else that would be doing it by now. And that, that is one of the few blessings of, of age. Cause I, I'm, I'm kind of struggling a little with my

corporal, the corporeal decline. You know, like I, I can't, I can't, I'm not quite as, uh, I don't repair as quickly as I used to. Like I get fat, because I get fat and then thin and fat and thin. If I get fat, it takes me much longer to get not fat again. Like this is terrible. It used to be easy. Yeah, I know. I quit smoking two and a half years ago and I'm still trying to,

and when I was smoking and fit, I sort of did this devil's dance of being very fit and exercising and eating pretty well, but that vice was cigarettes, which I don't crave them anymore, but I do come and miss them sometimes. Oh, I fucking, listen, I fucking loved smoking. I have a cigarette for 25 years. I loved every cigarette I ever had. Oh my God. I fucking loved it. And if it didn't years. I loved every cigarette I ever had. Oh my God. I fucking loved it.

And if it didn't give you cancer, I'd still do it. It gives you cancer. Same. Just does. But I was such a sexy weight. I was like, I can't fit into the suits I wore. So I'm in the process now of getting back down. So I got to eat my feelings.

That's the carrot that I use for myself as well. Cause I had this deal when I was in late night that my agent made that I get, I got to keep all the suits that I ever had in like, so I've got like 150 suits from late night shows and game shows and stuff like that. So, so I have this idea that if you lose another 10 pounds, you'll get, you'll win 150 suits. So it kind of, it's hard though. And I feel like, were you fat as a kid? Were you a tubby kid? No, never. This is the first time I've struggled with taking off weight.

I'm not obese or something. I'm well aware of that. And I don't think I have like body dysmorphia, but it's just, I can't fit into the suits that I invested a lot of tailoring into. So I'm about 20 pounds north of where I want to be. And that's hard. Harder for me than I thought. And I, I, it requires a discipline that I thought I had, but I got to work a little bit harder.

Well, you know, it's also, it's about how you feel. I mean, there are people who carry 20, 30, 40 extra pounds. You're just fine with it. And you know, and it's not, it, I, you know, I wouldn't, I don't think there's a body type that's perfect for everybody, but I know for, for me, if I carry extra weight, I feel ashamed. I was, my nickname when I was a kid was tubby. No. Yeah.

Yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't be allowed to do that. No, kids are such bitches. Oh my God. Oh my God. I've taught the teachers as well. I mean, it was, they were horrible. The teachers would say that to you?

Oh yes. Oh horrible. Tubby Ferguson, come out here, you fat wee body. Okay. I don't think I've ever managed to shake it. I really don't. Through all the years of getting sober and therapy and everything else.

Do you get therapy? Do you go to therapy? Is that? I did. I had a very bad bout of post COVID anxiety that manifested in the form of, and I didn't know it at the time. It was when I quit smoking. It was why I quit smoking initially.

I thought I was having heart attacks. I was in, I was seeing, it first happened when I was seeing To Kill a Mockingbird on Broadway with Jeff Daniels just before he left the show. After COVID, everyone's wearing a mask in the theater. We're all like looking at each other, like, don't breathe. And I, as soon as the show started, I feel like I'm having a heart attack and I'm thinking,

fuck, I'm going to be the guy they stopped the show for and I'm leaving this theater in a stretcher But I managed to breathe through it somehow anyway Panic attacks like that that felt like in heart attacks anxiety Fatigue I could not climb I live on an eighth floor sometimes I would take the stairs just to keep my ass in the same place it's been since college and I would get exhausted by the third floor. Like I couldn't get to the third floor without feeling like my chest is going to explode.

Did you get COVID? Was that a result? I did. This was what I learned later is that what I would, the litany of these horrible, like sort of knocking at death's door feelings that I was getting were from a weird long COVID. I went to a long COVID care center at Mount Sinai and she said, we're hearing a ton of this and there's nothing I have for you. You just kind of have to ride it out.

I just thought, oh Jesus. So, and there were emotional things. I was, I was like a lot of people during COVID and lockdown and loneliness and isolation. I went to see a therapist about it and went for about a year. We had a really good productive year. And she said, you know, I think you're doing really well. You can, I would love to keep seeing you if you want, but I think if you wanted to, you know, pump the brakes,

we're good with that too. So I'm cured. No. That's a great therapist. But it was, we had a good, it was very helpful. Very helpful. And so I've done that. Exercise is helpful.

I learned how to breathe. I wasn't breathing properly. You do yoga and stuff? No, there was this guy I heard on NPR, his name's James Nestor, and he wrote this book called Breath about three or four years ago. And he was on Fresh. You got a whole book out of it? I know. It's very strange. I'm thinking, what? About how we have done such damage to ourselves as a species through breathing improperly.

It was kind of fascinating. Anyway, extremely helpful. Game changing. He was on fresh air, I think with Terry Gross. And so I gave that a shot. I'll send you the link to it. It's a game changer. The big takeaway, inhale through the nose. We. It's- Yes, please. A game changer. The big takeaway, inhale through the nose. We should not be breathing through our mouth, which I did not know.

Yeah. But, yeah, therapy. I am all for really, Craig, anything. I'm not opposed to medicine. I do take some, like Lipitor, but I would like to be at a point where I am, you know, food is medicine to me and I would like to be eating better, exercising a little bit more and not need these medications. But for now, you know, fine. fine.

I think it's, it's kind of a part of the Asian process. The modern Asian processes is to get sanguine with, with medication a little bit. And I, I about two years ago, maybe a year ago, I had a, an endoscope. My father died of suffogial cancer and I was experiencing, uh, a lot of indigestion. And so I had to get an endoscope and they didn't find any Barrett's or, or any, uh, cancer stuff, but I was, I was getting constant indigestion, which was really awful. I was getting constant indigestion, which was really awful.

Um, and they put me on these medications for a while and I, they've really worked, but I've got such a, uh, resistance to that kind of thing. I just, I also, I also feel that, look, I'm not a doctor and I'm in no way qualified to say this, but I feel like if you're on medication for a long time, it's got to be doing something to your liver, to your kidneys, to your... It's got to be. It's got to be doing something. It's just, it's an extra thing. It's another thing for it to deal with.

And I know that modern medicine is a miracle and I wouldn't tell anyone to stop taking medicine, but I get a little uncomfortable being on anything for too long. You and me both. I know exactly what you're talking about. And I think, well, you touched upon this just now. Like without it, you know, it's, this is, this is a, I don't want to say miracle, but it is a miracle of human ingenuity, medicines, vaccines, all of this stuff. I am all in it. I just, there was a part of me, maybe it's a little bit of a resentment. I don't want to be on the hook to the, to the pharma monster for the rest of my life.

You know? Yeah. You know, this is not that weight has ever been a struggle, but I know that there are people on it. And I think Wigovie and Ozempic and stuff is going to make a, they're going to be game changers for so many people. And they are already. I talked to a couple, I had a doctor on the podcast, actually, I was talking to him about it.

And he was saying, oh no, these things are great. They're fabulous. The thing is, but I also talked to a friend of mine who'd lost a lot of weight. And, uh, he'd done it through having ozempic. And I said, uh, I said, it works then clearly. He says, it does. I said, what does it do? He said, you just don't, he's just not hungry.

Yeah. I said, I, I haven't, I don't eat because I'm hungry, I eat because I'm sad. I haven't been hungry since 1974. Feelings. It's just... I'm like, that's why I eat. Or it's TV time or... Feelings are delicious.

Oh my God. Yeah. I love eating my feelings. Yeah. But I think it's probably all wrapped up in the same dark magic of alcoholism and, and food and sex and did you ever get into any of the others, the gamblings or the compulsive sex or anything fabulous? Never with the gambling and I never did anything stronger than weed, oh, well alcohol kills more people

than any of them, but there were periods, not for a long time, but there were periods where my sex drive was in hyperdrive, for sure. Yeah, well, if you're in great shape and you're drinking, those things can come together in a hell of a look. Yeah, and you know, waking up with people I ordinarily wouldn't sit next to on a bus, but hey, you know, he kept me company for an evening.

It's fine. Yeah. Is there a subway near here? Is there coffee? Are we in New York? I'm George, by the way. What about, uh, I, I think a little bit about young people, if they're being irresponsible or, or being a little wild, uh, as I certainly was when I was young,

I feel for them because they're being filmed. Yes. Oh my God, Craig, could you imagine being active with the way people are now? We have film studios and radio stations in our pockets. Yeah. No way. I'd be in so much trouble. Well, I think it is, I mean, they're quite much trouble. Well, I think, I think it is. I mean, they're quite brutal with each other.

The young, I think they're, they're all kind of like, you know, they're, they're tough and, and those, uh, those, um, shame based tabloids and, uh, and you know, these websites where it's just like, Oh, well, TMZ, it's not one I really know very much, but I'm thinking more of like the British tabloid ones there. They're awful. They're, they're looking for a gotcha moment. I mean, but that's not new for British tabloid culture though.

No, I guess no. Or even, I mean, look, uh, Hearst was a bit of a, was a bit of a gotcha character as well, but it was more about wars and power, you know, I think for him, um, well at the celebrity, I mean, even, did you read the Scotty Bowers book? Did you ever read that book? No, do tell. Oh my God.

It's fantastic. Um, getting a pen. Scotty Bowers was, uh, he was, uh, I guess he was sort of a, uh, hooker in Hollywood. Oh, yes, I did. And I saw the documentary. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. I think it's Scotty Bowers, right? That's the name, right? Scotty. Uh, you might be wrong in the last name, but you might be right in the last name. But I know exactly what you're talking about. Blonde.

Little sexually ambiguous. Liked it both ways. Yeah, well, liked it more all the ways that can be liked. Died recently, like a couple of years ago. Yeah. And the story in the book about Charles Lawton... I don't know if that can be true. It can't be true. It's so bizarre. For the kids at home, please tell us.

Well, you tell us. I only saw the documentary. You read the book, but please go ahead. In the book, it's alleged that Charles Lawton paid someone to do a poop on a sandwich. And then he sat down and ate it and that was a thing for him. I can't believe that that's true. There is a perversion for everyone. Yeah, but I mean a shit sandwich.

Literally. Yeah. But I mean a shit sandwich. I mean, literally. And yeah, I mean, it's not like you said, Oh, this is a shit sandwich. Like an expression. It actually is a shit sandwich. I, I, I mean, I hate to shame them, but I mean, wow. To each one. I don't know how you get to that. Do you know what I mean? I, how do you get to the, you know what I'd like?

The menu of kinks. Like, you know what I mean? How do you get to that? You know what I'd like? The menu of kinks, like, you know what I'd like? I'm so vanilla. Oh, me too. I'm so vanilla. Don't just blow on it, I'm happy. A breeze does it for me on a good day, come on. Wow. Is that in that Breathe book, by the way?

Is there anything about that? It's where I learned it. It's where I learned it. I don't know. I'm going to read that though. I'm to find some kind of. And the audio book is helpful. I actually, I consumed it via audio book.

I'm doing that all the time now. Me too. I love them. All the time. I've become obsessed with Gore Vidal. I love him. Oh my gosh. There were voices I wish were still around.

His was one of them. Yeah. Gore Vidal, Joan Rivers, two essential names that I think that we are diminished. People always go on about George Carlin and he certainly was great. People always go on about George Carlin and he certainly was great, but the Joan Rivers and Gore Vidal, those voices of dissent and troublemakers, they are sadly missed right now. I had the privilege of working for Joan Rivers at the end of her life. Really? Yeah. I ran her social media.

No, I didn't know that. True story. I started on Twitter and I was following her and she was whining about her assistant, I found out later, was upset. She couldn't change the, you could change the color on your background, on your page, whatever. Anyway, I offered to help. And then we were connected. And then I got to know her CEO of her company and her friend

and he reached out to me one day out of the blue and said, we're all doing Jones Instagram and Facebook and we need a little someone to organize. We need someone to run this because we're all doing our own jobs and this we should have to someone doing just this for Joan. Would you be interested? I'm like, yeah. So I signed that, I signed that NDA June of 2014 and was with her for that summer and then she died three months later. But I was running her social media and I was writing jokes. I really loved her. You know, I never met her. Oh, Craig, she was first of all, three feet tall.

As a friend of mine said, there's something about that woman, whether you knew who it was or not, she just looked famous. Yeah, I know a couple of people like that. It's the hair, it's the jewels, it's the tailored Chanel jacket, whatever. She just looked famous. But smart, funny, ground breaker, door kicker opener, you know, all of it. I mean, really a real game changer.

Yeah. And Gore Vidal as well, I feel is a voice that particularly the young, the young and the queer right now seem to have, well, maybe they do connect to it, but I think he was such a great voice for current thinking. And articulate in a way that young people are not, I don't think today. Well, yeah. I mean, through no fault of their own, I think the, I think the, the handheld devices are used badly or terrible and you, they're, they're like,

you know, if they're badly used, they're, you know, they'll, they'll destroy you. And if you use them the right way, they're, they're fantastic. You know, and I, but who's to say what's the right way. I just feel literacy is really dropping down with, uh, with the young, but maybe I'm wrong with me. I'm, I read a lot less because I, I use my phone for, to, to, for somebody else to read to me. I just last year started referring to other guys as bro.

Like I just, it's going down. No, no, it's going down. No, not yet. No, I'm not there yet. I'm not going to, I'm not going to bro. The, um, the, the Gore Vidal thing. He was a master and such a, such a, I would, I encourage every young person to watch that, uh, find that clip on YouTube. And I think it was, was it on Dick Cavett show with him and... Truman Capote?

No, Gore Vidal and... Oh, I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I can't remember who it is. This is terrible. I want to refer to my social media world, but oh God, you know who I'm talking about. Um, Willie Meth Buckley. Yes. Legendary watching those two cats go at it. But, uh, uh, yeah, articulate, smart and, and, uh, loved his insights and his, the way he had his finger on a certain pulse. It was just kind of incredible. Did you ever come across his novelization of Julian the apostate? No. The Roman emperor that tried to steer the world back to Hellenistic religion after Constantine

changed, you know, it converted the Roman empire to Christianity. And it is, it sounds like a kind of, I think on the surface, it sounds like a rather kind of kind of academic study and it is so entertaining. It's like fucking game of Thrones. It's fabulous. I'm writing this down. Julian, uh, I think it's just called Julian actually. It's a wonderful, wonderful book.

And then the narratives of empire, the, I think it's seven novels about the political history of the United States are just fantastic. I have decided actually, because I've been banging on, on this podcast and everywhere else about how much I loved Govindal's biography of Aaron Burr, that I'm going to start petitioning someone to write a rebuttal to Hamilton on Broadway that used to have the Burr musical where you get the other point of view, because Burr was crazy and much more interesting than, than perhaps he's been portrayed as a sort of, I mean, yes, a murderer.

Uh-huh. Okay. But we all have our faults. We all have our faults. Yes. Progress, not perfection. Come on. Yes, that's right.

It's, it's a, you know, the idea that as, while you're the vice president, you kill someone in a duel and you go to try and raise an army, which I feel that's a skill that's been lost. I wouldn't know how to raise an army now. I don't think people know how to raise an army. No, no. Would you know? No, it's a lost skill.

Yeah. No. Would you know? No, it's a lost skill. Would that be the same as, well, let's not put it on par with inciting a mob? Well, it kind of is. I think it is inciting a mob. It's inciting a mob and paying for extra people on top. Yeah. That's so it it's I think it's probably closest to the shit sandwich. But but I don't know for sure. Delicious. No, God. Listen, we got to go. But so that was my best. We're best friends now, right?

Are we best friends now? Because that was my interview for to become at least a good friend. And I'm aiming for best friend slot. But I'm out in New York right now. I feel to actually get the coveted role of Hans Best Friend. It would have to be, which actually sounds like a great show, actually. Hans Best Friend. Oh, that is good.

Oh, I like that. Hans Best Friend. It's your podcast and you talk to people that are your friends. Hans Best Friend. That's a great idea. I think you should do it. And please, if you do it, feel free to include me financially. Fantastic. And please, if you do it, feel free to include me financially.

No, no, no, feel free to accept it with my, this is a legally me gifting it to you right now on this broadcast. I feel so touched. In all the right way. Yeah, in all the right ways. Well, listen, the next time I'm in New York, which I think will be fairly soon, let's get together and go somewhere great.

Please, I would love that so much. Yes, me too, I really would. And keep doing what you're doing. You are a force for good and high quality entertainment in a world of, in a giant shit sandwich, you're a lovely raisin of deliciousness. Ah, sir, you make my day with these kind words. Kindness, and I admire you so.

And thank you for having me on your podcast. I think I've been a fan for so long. This is such a kick for me. Well, it's totally mutual. So thanks, and we'll speak soon. I look forward to it. All right. All right. Mitchell. So, uh, so thanks and uh, well, I must be so. I look forward to it. Alright. Alright.