Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Jen Statsky

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

Meet Jen Statsky, television writer and comedian. She is the co-showrunner and co-creator of Hacks, for which she has received Emmys, WGA Awards, and a Peabody Award. She's also written on Parks and Recreation, Broad City, Lady Dynamite, and The Good Place. The fourth season of Hacks just started airing this past week. I hope you enJOY!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever important creative spark, the magic. Listen to Math and Magic on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come and see my brand new comedy hour. Well, it's actually about an hour and a half, and I don't have an opener because these guys cost money. But what I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway, come and see

me live on the Pants on Fire tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout 2025 and beyond. For a full list of dates, go to thecraigfergusonshow.com. See you on the road, my dears. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness.

Hello, my dears. Now look, for my money, one of the best shows on TV right now is a show called Hacks, which is on HBO or Max or whatever they call it now, but it's a great show. It's co-created by my guest today who is a fascinating and very, very clever individual by the name of Jen Statsky. Enjoy. You see that's how they do it in TV. You just go 5, 4, 3, 2, and then you don't see anything else. I haven't worked in TV in ages though. Used to work in TV.

Do they still do that? Oh no, you do single camera. I do single camera, so there's no countdown. But I'm trying to remember because I started in late night and I think we had a countdown. I think we had the 5, four, three, two. Yeah, you were on Jimmy's show for, that was your first gig, wasn't it? That was my first job.

That was my first writing job, late night, with Jimmy Fallon back in 2011. So you were doing that at the same time I was doing late night. Oh, did you ever watch our show? We're both retired from late night. I did watch your show, yes, of course. Yeah.

You are an excellent interviewer, which I'm sure you've been told many times over the years. Thank you. I feel like that is an odd, weird skill. Did you ever see the movie Demolition Man? It's one of Sandra Bullock's early movies. No, I never did. There's a Sandra Bullock movie called Demolition Man, and I call it Sandra Bullock's early movies. No, I never did. There's a Sandra Bullock movie called Demolition Man and I call it Sandra Bullock movies, it's Sylvester Stallone movie and he's Sylvester Stallone and Wesley Snipes and he gets cryogenically

frozen and then has to catch a criminal in the future. A lot of movies were like that back in the day. During his cryogenics, the computer implanted in his head that he knew how to knit. It was a joke in the film and I, and he was mystified by that. And that's like my skills for interviewing. I have no idea where I came about that. I certainly didn't study for it or have any academic training, but I feel like I can do it. I think you're right. Yeah, you definitely can.

Did you, did you find like before you became a host that like in, in conversations, like you're good at like being interested in people and asking them questions, like, did it feel natural vis-a-vis you moving through the world? That kind of was a skill? No, not at all. In fact, I'm quite misanthropic. I am, I'm quite shy and aggressively shy. So I don't just like go, Oh, I'm like, I want to go keep away from me.

That kind of shy, you know what I mean? I suspect that, you know, I write a lot and I know that that is what you do a lot of. And I think a lot of people who write are quite like that. They're, are you like that? I, I'm like that too. I'm pretty like one-on-one. I really like to connect with the person, but if I'm like at a party, I'm definitely going to be the person probably talking the least and a little bit quiet, which

sometimes comes off as like standoffish and people think maybe you're like not the friendliest, but it's, it's not that it at all. It's not, it's more that I am. Yeah. Just kind of more internal. I think we should speak out against parties. I think the parties are being forced on us by people who like parties, but I don't really like parties that much. A small group of people is all right, go out for dinner maybe, go and see something. But sure, sure.

I like a party, but there's, it's brutal when you are not in the mood for one and you have to go. That is, that's one of life's worst situations to be in. I can't think of the last time I was in the mood for a party or even two party. But let me just say this though. I have to say this right now, which is congratulations on the success of Hacks. Thanks, thank you. And as someone who's, it's very rare, like, like when people cops when they watch cop shows go

That's not what it's really like being a cop Yeah, I watch hacks now like that's exactly what it's like as exactly thank you That is exactly what it's like that is such a lovely compliment and means so much coming from you You know like when we started making the show we were like this is a horrible tightrope started making the show, we were like, this is a horrible tightrope walk we're doing, which is to portray a comedy portraying comedians and the life of a comedian. And we always said, like, if real standups and now late night hosts like yourself can watch it and feel like it is capturing something real, we'll have, you know, kind of cleared this really high bar we set for ourselves. So

it really means a lot to hear that from you. Well, so much so. The truth of it is this, that it, this, the, the relationship between the two main protagonists and Hikes is so similar to a relationship that I have with a guy who is now my rights for me all the time. Oh, wow. Who was on my show. I don't know if you remember he started off as an intern and he became the front end of

the pantomime horse. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, now he writes all the time. He produces for Netflix and stuff like that. And he writes for me. Remind me his name?

Joe Bolter is his name. Joe Bolter. Okay. Yeah. Right. And Joe and I so much so when I saw the first season of Hacks, I called Joe and I said, are you in the writers room on that show? Are you, are you being doing stuff on that show? And he said, no, he said, but I've seen it and it's

spooky. There are episodes. There was a, I think it was the first season, could have been the second, you'll know, I'm sure, when Deborah says we have to go to Vegas and they go to Vegas and then they, you know, they, they go in a plane somewhere and they come back. I'm mixing it up with my own life. I said to Joe once, I'm doing a show in Vegas. And he said, I can't come. I have to see my parents. I said, we'll be back by 10 o'clock.

Yep. And when I took him to Van Nuys airport and we got on this plane and we go out to Las Vegas and we did the show and we come back. It was all done in two hours, three hours maybe. And there was something like that in Hacks and he was like, it's so the same. Right down to our arguments about comedy, when I would be very cranky about, you know, the new rules of comedy and he would say there are no new rules of comedy. You just have to be funny.

Right. Which I think is possibly true. There was a time there when I was very worried about the dogma of the next generation of comedy, but I'm not anymore. I think it's maybe funnier. Right. And you were worried because you felt like we were treading into a place where we weren't, like comedy wasn't being valued or what was it that was worrying you?

I think more it was about the idea and you've had Deborah say these words. It's great to see a character when you go, yes, yes, that's right. You know, and then you realize, wait, this is the cranky old lady. Am I a cranky old lady? And I kind of have a little bit. Yeah. But it's the idea that I think for a while, I don't believe this anymore, but I did for a while there think that they're saying, or the young people are saying that certain areas

of comedy are off limits and you can't make jokes about that, which I don't believe. I believe that you must be able to make jokes about whatever you can make funny. It's not like there are taboo subjects. I think that that, I mean, there's bad jokes, but I think taboo subjects, you know. And also the retrogression look at material that you had done before attitudes changed and picking up on that was a very weird thing. Yeah. It was like, well, I did that joke 10 years ago.

I wouldn't do it now. Right, right. And that's very much so, you know, we did that last season when Deborah goes back to her alma mater college and is taken to task by the students there for old material. And we very much wanted to have this exact conversation that you're saying and kind of talk about, yes, times change. And there's things that we were joking about at the time and now we have moved on and understand as a society that that was not right.

And it's a conversation between feeling what Deborah feels is she feels very like persecuted in that moment. And she's like, but I've always tried to be on the right side of history. I just had these jokes that at the time weren't right. And Ava sort of saying yes. And it's also the right of people who hear those jokes down to say like, this is, this is painful and this was not great. And there's an understanding, like, you know, one thing we're always trying to do with the show is have each character be both right and wrong.

That's amazingly clever. It's way more interesting to see a conversation between two people where they're both right and wrong, versus like if Deborah was just wholly in the wrong, it's less of an interesting conversation. So that one in particular was, you know, really important for us to do because that is such a conversation in comedy these days, like you're saying. It's funny, the interesting thing about it as well, and what I very much like about the portrayal of Deborah is that it's unapologetic. It's very kind of, she's still funny, you know, which I love that.

The idea of it, did you have this? Because, I mean, it seems funny to say this to you, but you're kind of, you're getting to the point of veteran status now. You've been doing it for long enough. I know. It's weird how fast it happens as well. It is like, oh my God. I know, it's great.

Well, talking about like starting on, you know, Fallon was my first job and I was 24, 25 years old when I got that job. And like, now I've been doing it. Now I'm 39, like I've been doing it for a decade and a half and it feels crazy. Like you're saying, cause I still feel like that kid who started in 30 rock, like writing monologue jokes for Jimmy. So yeah, it is, it's, it's wild to kind of have had the luck that I've had in this career and gotten to move from late night to now making hacks and all the shows I've been lucky enough to work on in between.

Yeah. Cause you worked on The Good Place as well, which was another kind of groundbreaker is another really wonderful show. Yeah. Cause The Good Place, you know, I value my time on that show so much and Mike Schurr who created that, you know, did something so brilliant with that show,

which was it was a network sitcom, but it was so original in its idea and its conception and what we were trying to do and the stories we were trying to do. And so, yeah, I feel really lucky to have worked on that. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published, and he was unlike any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

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I can't, look, I'm not going to come around your house and show you how to do it. If you can't do it, then you can't have it. But if you can figure it out, it's yours. The three of you that came up with hacks, there's you and remind me it's Paul W. Downs and Lucci and Yellow. Yeah. Right. And did you all come up together?

Is that something that do you all know each other early? Yeah. It was came organically from that? Yeah, we basically all met doing like sketch and improv and stand up in New York city. So back in like Lucia and I, my senior year at NYU, I was in this sketch group that was kind of an offshoot of the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater. And Lucia and I were the only girls in the sketch group,

and we kind of instantly gravitated towards each other in our senses of humor, and I really loved her and thought she was so, so talented. And then she introduced me to Paul, and they had been doing sketches as a two-man group and making things. And Paul, you know, again, same, just instantly was like, oh, these are the funniest people, and just had a real instant kinship and knew that I wanted to work with them. Is it something that still exists? Do you make each other laugh in the writers room still?

We do. Yeah. Yeah, we do. You know, we kind of shows. Oh, thanks. Yeah. We really, you know, when we started the show, we made a promise to ourselves that we wouldn't ever let it interfere with our friendship, that we would always try to like protect that first,

and always kind of honor the fact that this started because we just genuinely loved making each other laugh and try to hold on to that as we move through the process. And I think that like that is only proven more and more true as we've gone on because as the show has been successful and we've been lucky to have this show be successful, like the bigger it gets, you actually kind of can't take it all in and think about that. If you start thinking about doing it for a review or doing it for an award, it just kind of can, it can be overwhelming and eat away at you. And so I think even the bigger the show has gotten, the more we lean into trying to just rely on like,

does Paul think this good? Does Lucia think this is good? And then expanding it out through there. Like, do our writers think this is good? And the other people working the show think this good. And trying to keep it concentrated like that. Yeah, it's an interesting thing because the idea of success is such an odd kind of ingredient creatively, I think.

It does very odd things to creative people. It does odd things to anyone. Yeah. But if you add success and fame and then there is this thing, I remember the example I will give you is this, is that when I started in late night, people immediately began asking me, because I was working for David Letterman behind World Wide Pants and Dave was doing the 1130 show and I was doing 1230. And immediately people started saying, are you going to take over from Dave?

Like before I even started on my show, I said, no, I have no interest in that. That's not my thing. And they, they, and also I'm just starting this job and it almost seems like. In the world of show business, I was going to say Hollywood, but it's so much kind of not that anymore, but in the world of show business, it seems to me, people used to say, what have you done lately? But now it seems to be, it's, what are you doing next? What you haven't done yet is more important than-

Yeah. I used to, it's so interesting you bring this up because I used to think this all the time because when I was lucky enough to be a staff writer on like Parks and Recreation or The Good Place or Broad City, people would always say, but when are you going to do your own show? But you want to run your own show, right? And of course I did eventually go on to do that with Hacks, but it was such an interesting thing that people kind of put you on this ladder, even if you yourself are not thinking that way.

And it's very much so like, but what's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? Which is really counterintuitive to your process as an artist, because you really are just trying to stay present and focus on making the thing you're doing in that moment good. Well, it's and also it's an odd thing because I get it's 10 years since I left late night, right? And people say to me, you know, they still say less so now because they're all dead to the people who remember that I was on TV, but the, but people will say, why did you leave? And I said, look, it's mental health. It's like this. If I don't know how other

people deal with it, but if I walk into a building every day, every five days a week, and there are pictures of me everywhere, everywhere I go, there's giant pictures of me. And then there's all the stationery, all the paper has my name on it. And my name is everywhere and there's me everywhere. And there's about 150 people in the building and all they are doing is making sure I am in a good mood. Nobody wants to bring me any bad news. No, they want me to be good for the show.

Yep. Makes you fucking crazy, Dan. I know it's crazy. It's really wild because you're one of like 10 people, right? That I could talk to about this. Cause I, I lived on the other side of that. Like when I started Fallon and this was not, you know, Jimmy didn't say to say this, this was coming from you know, Jimmy didn't say to say this.

This was coming from someone who worked for him. He said, 50% of this job is writing good jokes and 50% is being friends with Jimmy. That was like, that was the attitude that people around you had. And I'm sure as you're saying, you didn't even put that out there. You didn't come in and say, I need everything to revolve around me and everybody needs to be doing all these things to make me happy. But it happens. It's just what happens when there is a central figure at the head of a show that people, I don't know, it's kind of this like, almost like it's like a king in the kingdom, like the all the people in the court doing all these machinations

to like make him happy, but then also kind of like it turns into people being cutthroat with each other because everybody's trying to protect this one person. Yeah. And their access to that person. And you, it occurs to you, this is what I'm interested because in the next season, you're putting Deborah in that position. You're putting Deborah into being a late night host, which I love and I want to get to that because it's very important thing. I want to talk to you about that. But the, the idea of this thing occurs, I once heard about David Letterman before I

was ever on the show, before I was ever on Dave's show. Somebody had said, Oh, no, you're not allowed to look Dave directly in the eye. You must look directly in the eye. If you walk down the corridor, you have to look away. And I was like, really? And then, you know, I've since met David's quite a lot. And if I didn't look him in the eye, you'd think I was weird. You know, I was like, Oh, yeah, I think he thinks I'm weird anyway. But the idea of that was so odd to me. And I heard it, then I heard about Jennifer Lopez for some reason. She was a guest on a, she wasn't even in my show. She was in the building and someone said, don't look at her directly.

It was always this same phrase. Don't look at them directly in the eye. Oh my God. I have never heard that. And then I heard that about five different people. And then I heard about myself. Oh, no way. Yeah. Somebody said, Oh, I heard that some one, an old friend, a writer who was, you

know, who I brought into the show, who's an old friend of mine from the old country. And he was like, what's this? Don't look you directly in the eye. I was like, Oh my God. I don't know what you're talking about. Right. And that must be really crazy to be a public figure. It's crazy. It's fucking crazy. Yeah. It makes you crazy. I could, when Seth Meyers started, he called me up and he said, I'm very excited. And he was just phoning all the other hosts. And I said, it'll make you crazy, Seth. And he said, I don't think it will. I don't think it will. And I, I saw him at a Rangers game maybe about three or four months ago and I,

I don't think it has made him crazy. I think he's okay. I think so. He I think is a rare guy that yeah, he seems because I know he seems. Yeah, yeah, totally. But like that is something with this season that we wanted to pay homage to the fact that late night is such a grind. And I don't think people totally realize like for the host of a late night show,

it's kind of like, I think it's the hardest job you can have while also being super famous because it is such a grind. It's five days a week. It is like relentless. And like you're saying, everything, it almost sounds like it'd be nice in some ways. They're like, oh, everything revolves around you and everyone's trying to make you happy. But like you're saying that in and of itself can become its own kind of prison. And so...

Don't get me wrong. It's great for about a month. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And then you're like, wait a minute. I had a friend who was a cop in Bakersfield and he gave it up and he said, I hate being a cop because everybody lies to you all the time.

I said, that's exactly what it's like being a late night host. Everybody's lying to you all the time. And even if they're not, you think they are. It's very weird. Yeah. Do you ever miss it? No. I miss sometimes the fun I had on stage.

Because the people that I worked with on stage, Josh Robert Thompson, who did the skeleton robot on my show, I had a very small crew of performers and we were kind of a rep. It wasn't even a rep group. It was just like, it was like half a dozen different people and they would cycle through and I missed that kind of almost like, uh, upright citizens brigade kind of groundlands vibe. I miss the team, but I don't miss, I don't miss fucking television executives. And I, I think that the new democratic kind of form of making content, I suppose. I like the idea of being able to speak directly to the audience, because that's what stand-up is, and I kind of like that.

And I'm kind of, I mean, an admiration of you and others in your position who can exist in the world of television, because you are an artist and you create art, but what a lot of people don't see is the meetings that you're having with people who are extremely difficult for me to deal with. I mean, it's not their fault. It's just we see the world differently. And I have a very hard time with it.

Well, I think you'll like this season quite a bit then because this season is really focusing on that intersection of art and commerce and how difficult it can be. And also just, you know, even since you've left late night how even I think more difficult it's gotten with the tremendous pressure on each individual show and property to like expand beyond, you know it's not just enough to just be one

singular show and get decent ratings. Like, like you're saying content and, and expand, you know, all of that, like all of that comes into play now in a way that it feels like there's, there's a heavier hand on like perhaps the commerce side of it that makes it even more difficult. And, and not, not our executives, we've been really lucky in that they're so wonderful at HBO and they foster creativity and they're so supportive. But I think Late Night in particular is, and is really, as has been discussed many times, a very interesting moment. It is an odd thing.

And I think what I was looking at, why I'm excited to see the new season because Deborah, I thought, correct me if I'm wrong, I mean you created the character but I always thought one of the archetypes for Deborah would be Joan Rivers. I thought that, I don't know if you know the story about Joan Rivers in late night and how poorly she was treated when she got her own show, I'm sure you do. I always thought that's really fucking unfair what happened to her. I know. It's so heartbreaking. I know. Yes. We, you know, there's many people that Debra is an amalgamation of and certainly Joan is one

of them that we talked about a lot and researched a lot. And yeah, she got such a raw deal with The Tonight Show and being banned from it and then her show. It's really, it's heartbreaking. Because she had the audacity to do her own show? Yeah, right. Which is such a, you have to think like anybody would understand someone doing that. I don't know. I mean, it seems like maybe now, I feel like in show business, one of the things I always

loved about show business and I really believe this, that there's room for everybody. They like everybody, it doesn't really matter, you know, it, I know it feels like, I think particularly when you're young, when everybody's competitive and everyone's trying to make their bones that you feel like if they're getting success, then somehow I'm not going to. There's a lovely scene of that actually in the first scene of Hacks, when they meet in the line for that show in Vegas and they're talking about, you know, other people who are doing really well.

I love that. It's like so true. There's this like kind of thing that when you're young, you feel like someone's success is your failure. And I remember, I remember when I started writing and was young and doing it, I really had to like train myself out of that way of thinking because it's so kind of negative. I'm glad that I'm at a point in my career where I don't think that way anymore. I think a bit of success will help I got rid of it also before, before like yesterday, I think.

But, but yeah, it is true. It's really hard, especially when your career isn't where you want it to be. Yeah. It's not like Gore Vidal said, which is, it's not enough that I succeed. It's that my friends have to fail. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of, I mean, you come from the standup world, which I feel

like is even maybe a little more cutthroat that way than improv or sketch where I came from. Like that, that's a lot of still standups takes, I think. Oh yeah, I think so. I, although I have to say, I had a similar conversation with Bill Hayter about this. And cause I asked them about when he was on Saturday night live and he took a similar route to you in a, in a way that, you know, he came out and started, you know, and making Barry and running the show. And I said, were you very competitive when you were all working together on Saturday Live?

And he said, no, we actually weren't. We were quite, it was quite collegiate. He said, but I heard about it from the old, the previous cast. And he said, and he thinks it might be a generational thing, which might be a bit like that as well, I think for all the kind of noise that people my age make about people your age, I think that actually younger people are kind of a bit better with each other. I think so. I think something I notice in younger comedians, even the

ones that are super driven, there is less, I think people have evolved a bit out of the mentality that someone else needs to fail for you to succeed. Like, yeah, I do think that hopefully there's a better kind of collective mindset around that. I guess it comes down to the individual. So when Debra goes into late night in this season of High Sins, I'm actually, you know, I don't know if you've gathered this, I'm actually a huge fan of this show. Oh, thank you. Thanks, that means a lot.

There are shows that I like. Yeah. Your show, the first three seasons of The Righteous Gemstones. And then, I don't know, I'm going back to maybe The Sopranos. Okay, it sounded like you were going to go into a long list, but it ended there and then you're back to Sopranos, a show from 20 years ago. Yeah, and then it's The Sopranos and The Wire. I mean, the sopranos and the wire. I mean, it's... Your MASH and the most recent one. Yeah, MASH, you know, what was the, the, the, the Adams family, you know, the original cast, you know.

Yeah. Well, that means, that means a lot coming from you and I'm, I am so curious and we have been lucky enough to hear from other late night hosts that they like the show. I mean, watching this season, I hope it doesn't give you PTSD because it is firmly in the world in which you lived and you're one of the only people on earth that has quite this experience. The number one hit true crime podcast, The Girlfriends is back with something new, The

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Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network. I know it's funny. I had a conversation with Jimmy Kimmel a few years ago when he said, you know, we, this was actually before I left, it was just as I was. And he said, you know, we should all kind of get together. Me, you, Dave J, all that stuff. And have a dinner or something.

Because there are so few people that have done this. And I was like, nah. Why? Why did you say no? I don't know, but I know that Dave would say the same thing. But what's interesting is I feel much more sanguine and affectionate towards late night now that I don't do it. And I know that Dave is in a very similar place with it. You know, I feel like. Like once I went diving with sharks in the Bahamas and I'm really glad I did it.

I'm never fucking doing it again. And that's, that's kind of, that's kind of how I, I feel about it. They, it has a, I'm really glad that I'm proud of what we did, but I, I'm glad it's over. But you're happy you got out of the water when you did. I am. I am happy I get out of the water. I am happy to get out of it. And so what, so what happens with Hacks?

Cause you're at the point now, if you're starting season four, a lot of what you're doing now, if my timeline is correct, and what it's like to be in charge of an operation in show business, a lot of what you're doing now will involve being HR. Well, it's not HR, but it certainly is. And I have discussed this before. The interesting thing about show running is you start as a writer, you come up as a writer, you're like, I like writing TV. It's something I feel like I'm good at and I want to pursue. And then once you get your own show, all of a sudden you're in charge of a 250 person corporation. And there's

a skill set of show running that is completely different from the skill set of writing comedy. is completely different from the skill set of writing comedy. And that has been a real learning experience over the last, you know, four or five years now for Paulucci and myself, because you're right that there's just a lot of things that you have to deal with that you never envisioned having to deal with when you're just on staff. People's problems and their feelings about the, I know it's like, oh my God. Yeah, and like, you know, when if someone isn't doing, like the thing I find very challenging is knowing,

you know, if someone isn't doing a great job or it's not a great fit, like the letting go of someone, which we know we have luckily knock on wood, haven't had to do a lot, but that's really difficult to me because it's very hard to divorce the fact that this is a human being and this is their life and their livelihood. And I find that to be I've really had to do work around that because it's a real it's difficult. Also, you will be alienated from the other side because you become a resource to other people and you become if if you're the boss, you, you start, you go from that position of being scrappy writer for Jimmy Fallon to, you know, boss lady in charge.

Yeah, totally. Did you have any, I mean, I'm friendly with Martha Kaufman, who's, you know, is, you know, writing friends and creating, you know, such great shows. And she seems to me to be someone who's kept her humanity through the process. Did you, do you have a mentor for that? Did you talk to anyone? Was there anyone that you could? Yeah, I think that, you know, I was really lucky in that I came up on Mike Schur shows.

So Parks and Rec and The Good Place were created by Mike Schur. And Mike is a really excellent boss in that he's just a genuinely good, deeply good person. And so that I think helped me. I had a good role model for running a room in terms of that. And then I think though it is that like it's a it's a good way to put it like keeping your humanity and staying in check with your humanity because I think you can get so some people get so myopic and focused on the end goal of the show or the you know, and you do you have to do that you have to be protecting the show and protecting your work but you also do need to stay in touch with your humanity and that these are human beings that you're working with.

So it is something that's a difficult part of it because it's exactly in play in you is the intersection of art and commerce. You're trying to stay creative and vulnerable to create something real and funny and truthful, but you're also having to beat management and make some decisions along the way that maybe emotion

doesn't serve you as well. So it's a really interesting thing to balance and I hope over the years I've only gotten better at it because it's a difficult thing. It is a difficult thing and it isn't, ultimately I think, I think for me I had to make a choice about I got to go, I had to make a choice about, I got to go with this. And I think that what I think is fascinating about it is that the people I know who have gone through your, like going through a showrunner's type life, you know, if you look at, well, I suppose a great archetype for it would be Larry David.

Yes. Yeah. You know, going to that, if I look at, I mean, I always liked Seinfeld, who didn't like Seinfeld, but having watched Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld is a much better show. It's a much better show knowing who Larry is and what Larry is and seeing him in the show. Seeing him in Jerry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. It's kind of fascinating. And I, and I wonder, do you have any, is there any, I mean, I know you're very busy and you're very inside this world and all that, but is there any kind of point where you think that performances for you or, or moving in that direction is something that you would want to explore? No. Yeah, I really, I really am not a performer and I do not, not that I like, I've been,

I've acted in things here and there, but it's not, it doesn't light me up. It doesn't, I don't get the kind of fulfillment that other people get from it. I just really don't. I don't feel comfortable doing it. And I think one thing you're speaking to about when you said like I had to get out and the management and the pressure is like, I think one thing that has really saved me

and made show running tolerable is that I'm never doing it alone. I'm doing it with Paul McChia and I never feel alone. And I say this all the time, like I could never doing it alone. I'm doing it with Paul and Chia, and I never feel alone. And I say this all the time, like I could not show run alone. I would feel, I would go crazy if I felt like I didn't have two people that were in it with me and fully understanding the experience of what we're doing.

So I also wonder like, was that a difficult part of it for you? Did you feel, I mean, like you said, it's your name on the door and your name on the stationary. Like, it was really all about you and that probably felt really, like, solitary. I think for a personality like mine, which is kind of like, you know, I'm kind of alcoholic, addict, I know, I feel like I'm the piece of shit at the center of the universe, you

know what I feel like I'm the piece of shit at the center of the universe, you know what I mean? It's like a conflicting narcissism and self-hatred and stuff that I think for a personality like mine, it's highly toxic. I think for somebody like, I think Seth is like Tom Bombadil with that shit. The ring just has no power over him. He's like, yeah, I can do it. I was like, oh my God, don't you go, like I was like, ah, my precious. He's like, no, I'm fine. Right. It's possible that like demons you have, the job will draw those out and reveal them. I think success does that.

I think success is pat nip for demons. I think that for whatever darkness you have and Jen, my dear, who you're now my new best friend, I have to tell you, I don't believe for a second that someone that can write like you write doesn't have fucking demons. So they- Jen I definitely have demons. For sure I have demons for sure. I have demons. Do you find them activated by, I mean, do you find them activated by busyness and success and, and.

Yeah. Well, I kind of mine come from, I had a very specific upbringing where my parents, it was a very difficult household. There were a lot of fighting, a lot of like, my mom was not mentally well. It was a chaotic upbringing for sure. And I think what's interesting is my demons, I deal with my demons in the quest for success. Like in, in, I was an only child and so I was very much so alone in that environment and in my way of coping was to really hone in on school and academics.

And I was like, I'm going to be the best student I can because I saw it as a life raft. I saw it as a thing that would get me out of that situation. And I just as easily could have seen drugs or alcohol as that. I just for whatever reason, school and work and that was my thing that was getting me out. But in that same way, it's a coping mechanism, and I've had to also work with the balance of it made me addicted to work. It made me addicted to not to success for the sake of success, the way some people are

like, oh, I just want to be successful because I want to see my name on on deadline or whatever. It's more, it's the demons thing. It's a coping mechanism to still feel I need it to get out. That makes sense to me. What you're saying makes perfect sense because the idea if you use the word chaotic, if you are around chaos as a young person, then what could be more the antithesis of that than becoming a writer when you're in charge of the story? You know, you, you create order by writing it down and, and, and it now occurs like that.

I think it's a fantastically clever use of your darkness. Yeah. My hat's off to you. It's much better than cocaine. I think cocaine, much better than cocaine and alcohol. I feel like you made the right choice. It's less fun. It's less fun.

Oh, I don't know about that. I really don't. Well, it's, it's, that's more fun for a little bit and then that gets really unfun. This is, yeah. But yeah, but it is. I think. It's exactly that. It's your, if you grow up in a world that doesn't really make sense, so many people

become writers because they are trying to create a world in which they can make sense of it. I think that, I think everything comes down to that, doesn't it? It's like your first 10 years will inform the next 70. Uh huh. Uh huh. Whatever you will do. And I wonder about that later on.

What does that look like for you? And is there a, is there any kind of, look, I don't do this, so I don't expect anyone else to, but I feel like I, as someone talking to you, who, you know, you do write, you do create order, is there an end goal? Is there a plan beyond the job that you're working on now? Like as specific? Yeah. Not really, no. I mean, I think like, what's interesting is I think it's really more the work that I have to do is sitting with stillness and not doing things. And that

I find to be the most challenging because I think the way I've gone about my career and I've been really lucky and I feel very privileged to get to create things and have people connect with them. But like I have been sort of on this treadmill for a long, long time. And I find that when I have to stop, anytime I have to stop,

that is like the real challenge for me. So I don't know that there's a goal. I feel so lucky to do what I do and I want to keep doing it for as long as I can, but I don't know that, I don't want for much more in my career because I've been so blessed up until this point. Is there a form of writing? Because as far as I know, and I could be wrong wrong as far as I know all of your writing is contained in the world of television. Is there a book? Is there a book? You know some of my

agent asked me this the other day. I don't know that there's a book. There's not a novel. I don't envision myself writing a novel. I would maybe write a book of like essays or something non-fiction about my life when I have lived more of it and have more to tell. But no, not a novel. One of our hacks writers just wrote a novel over, like that comes out soon and I'm so impressed because I just, my brain doesn't think that way.

I can't picture doing more like prose writing. I feel like I'm going to predict that you will change course on that. Oh, using it when you write a book. Look, I'm not the boss of you, but I'm just saying. It'd be cool of you. I would love someone to tell me what to do. So I feel like there are some, no, look, I don't know who writes what in the script of Hacks, but I hear the way that these characters look, I know the rules.

I know that, you know, dialogue is exposition. I know that I know that every single thing that they're saying is telling the story. Even knowing that rule, I can't see it. That's some good writing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And so whoever, whatever you guys are doing in there, there is a love of prose. There is a, and you know, embrace, embrace mono, embrace the, you know, embrace the,

embrace the Luddite prose and see where it goes. I think you'd enjoy it. I think it's, if you talk about imposing order on chaos, like when I was going through, I wrote, I've written one novel so far, one and a half. And when I wrote the novel, I was going through a terrible, well, I don't know if anyone goes through a good divorce, but I was going through a divorce. That'd be funny if you said, I was going through an amazing divorce. It was such fun.

It was such a riot where, oh, we had such a laugh. But I was going through a divorce when I wrote the novel. And if you talk about getting a world where you can impose everything. Cause one time that I was getting a divorce and I'd had, I'd written a movie, which had it's stiffed, it had gone straight to video, which that's, you know, that shows you how long ago it was because now going straight to video is what you want. That'd be good. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd be like, oh yeah. Oh, it's streaming right away? Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. But the idea of imposing order on chaos, it became extremely therapeutic during all that to go to a world that I was 100% in charge of.

It's fascinating. That's interesting. Yeah. You don't have to have a plan because once you create the first five or six pages, then it seems to kind of take you where it wants to take you. All your views show up. Probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it because I might actually really like it. I think you might.

I hate writing alone. I get really, and again, this is about the stillness, this is about the... Right. Even though I am like, I don't, at a party, I'm not, again, to go back to, I'm not going to be like the loudest person pulling focus, I also really don't, I hate writing alone.

I like being alone. I like doing things alone. I'm very much an only child in that way, but writing alone is torture to me. Yeah, I think you'll get used to it. It's like olives. You don't like olives until you're 30. That's the same thing. Your tastes will change.

Okay, okay, good, good. I don't know. I understand it though. Like people say when they go away to the country to write, I can't write shit in the country. I can't. But if I walk around the city block of New York, I come back with an idea. Right.

Right. Right. It's been around. I understand that. I understand the being around it. But look, whatever you're doing, keep fucking doing it because it's awesome. Oh, thanks. Thank you.

And I'm very impressed. I feel like when you do write a book, I am entitled to 10% of the... For sure, for sure. Yeah, I feel like that's only right. Yes, yeah, yeah. Maybe you can write the introduction. Yeah, yeah, I will. And then I'll write a little thing on the back. Yeah, this was... You said this was my idea. This is my idea, but you know, I gotta admit, Jen did show up and type it.

Alright, it's been great to talk to you. Good luck with the new season of Highs. It's such a great show. Congratulations to everyone. It's been so lovely to talk to you. Well, please let me know what you think because it is a world you live. So I hope we did it justice and got it right. It doesn't deserve justice. It just deserves to be reported.

Bye bye. Thanks Greg. Bye. Thanks. Bye bye. Here's the deal. We gotta set ourselves up. See, retirement is the long game. We gotta make moves and make them early. Set up goals. Don't worry about a setback. Just save up and stack up to reach them. Let's put ourselves in the right position.

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I'm having conversations with some folks across a wide range of industries, to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Tarang Amin, legendary singer-songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel. Being a rock star is very fun but helping people is way more fun. And Damian Maldonado, CEO of American Financing. I figured out the formula, I just have to work hard then that's magic. Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever important

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