Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Roxane Gay

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Meet Roxane Gay, the prolific and critically acclaimed New York Times-bestselling author, editor, essayist, respected academic and celebrated cultural commentator, whose intellect, charm and singular perspective capture the zeitgeist of our era. Roxane’s next highly anticipated book OPINIONS: A Decade of Arguments, Criticism, and Minding Other People’s Business, an exhilarating collection of her best nonfiction essays on culture, feminism, politics, and everything in between, will be published by HarperCollins on October 10th. Roxane is beloved for her bestselling books, including BAD FEMINIST, HUNGER, AYITI, AN UNTAMED STATE, and WORLD OF WAKANDA(Marvel). She has a widely read newsletter, The Audacity, AND an excitingnew imprint with Grove Atlantic, Roxane Gay Books. EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. It's a new show, it's new material, but I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson, on my own, standing on a stage, telling comedy words. Come and see me. Buy tickets. Bring your loved ones. Or don't come and see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but you should at least know it's happening. And it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at thecraigfergussonshow.com.

They're available at thecraigfergussonshow.com. Or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. On the show today, my guest is an author, a public speaker, an academic,

a very, very, very clever person. And if you haven't read any of her work, I urge you to have a crack at it. She's really clever. And I don't agree with her on everything. And that's even more interesting. Please enjoy Roxane Gay. The microphone with your finger there. I sure did.

I'm old. You know, it's funny though, because you do have a quiet voice and I'm, but I thought it'd be that, but you have a very loud voice, but not necessarily in volume. Correct. When I'm writing, I'm very loud. And other than that, I'm actually pretty quiet. I think that actually being quiet when you're talking is a way to make people lean in.

I think it's like, wait, what is she saying? The, you're a very, a person of many opinions. I've been reading a lot of your opinions. And I think, because you've been doing this for quite a while, you look, by the way, you're my first doctor of philosophy. So I'm very excited to, because I want to ask you about philosophy in a, in a doctoral sense. But have you ever read, do you ever write things because you've been doing this for

a while, do you ever look back at stuff you've had an opinion on and go, I really don't feel that way anymore. I don't know what I'm going to do about that. Not really. And it's not because I got it right the first time. It's just that most of the things that I believe in are for me, fundamental human rights. And so if anything, I've gotten more progressive over time. I think the more comfortable I become, the more I recognize that everyone should have a certain level of comfort.

And so it just pushes me further left. The one thing I know that I sort of have gotten wrong, and there's an essay in one of my first books, Bad Feminist, where I talk about how amazing Bill Cosby is. So, you know, I definitely got that wrong. But I think we all got that wrong. I wouldn't beat yourself up on, you know, you weren't the only one. I actually was fascinated by, did you ever see Dave Chappelle's take on the whole Cosby

thing? Because it was fascinating when he was talking about how you can admire someone so much and then find out something really horrible about them. And what do you do? You know, I mean, obviously he phrased it and framed it in a comedic sense, but it's a weird thing. Do you ever meet people that you admire?

Because I've done this a lot. You meet people you admire and go, eh, particularly actually, you know, I've got to be honest, sometimes writers, because they can be two different personalities. Yes. I have met a lot of people I admire. I've been pretty lucky.

For the most part, I've had really good experiences. But there is a disappointment sometimes where you have an idea of someone and then you have to confront the reality of them and recognize, you know, performers are performing. And then when they're not in front of the camera, they're themselves. And we don't actually know that person. And I know that intellectually, but when you have a favorite and you meet them and they don't live up to your imagination, there's a disconnect there for sure. It's quite an interesting thing

because I think now writers, people, I mean, you're an academic and you talk and you're a professor. So, I mean, there is a great, there is a stand up in front of a room full of people aspect of your job, but it feels to me like all writers to an extent have to be performers now. You can't just write and throw it out there. Well, you can, but it'll be hard to sell it.

Yeah. It's, I think a lot of my peers find it really frustrating. And I admit I do too in that I became a writer because I don't want to be in front of a camera. I don't want to be on TV. I'm very fortunate to have had the type of career that has afforded me such opportunities. So I don't take it for granted. But every single time I just think, oh my God, this is not what I'm supposed to be doing.

But it's really hard to find readers. It really is. And so many of us- It's getting harder too, I think. Oh, it's so hard. It is just hard to sell books no matter who you are. And so many of us have made peace with the fact that we have to turn to different avenues to reach readers.

And that's okay. You know, I like being read, so. Yeah, I mean, it's an odd thing though, because you... I mean, I haven't done it. I've done it a bit myself. When you write a book and you go on a book tour, and then you have to read out passages from your book. I mean, and I've seen you do it, and you're very good at it.

But I, whatever, excuse me, whatever I've seen you do it and you're very good at it. But I whatever excuse me, whenever I've had to do it, I thought this is I want this the voice in your head to be your voice in that, you know, you're reading it in your head as a reader. I don't want you to hear even doing audio books. Do you do audio books of your work now as well? You'll have to write. I do. I didn't do my first two or three books,

but I did my memoir, Hunger, and I also did the audiobook for Opinions, and I suspect I'll be doing the next couple audiobooks as well. You'll have to. I mean, it's just part of the game now, like you're saying. Did you ever have anyone else do an audiobook of your work? Absolutely. Two really great audio voice actors have done my work. Robin Miles has read my fiction, both Difficult Women and An Untamed State, and she's such a phenomenal voice actor. She could read anything of mine any day of the week and I would be proud to have her interpreting my work. And then Bad Feminist in the United States

was read by Bonnie Turpin. And she is an incredible voice actor as well. And again, I would happily work with her on anything at any time. But I always thought that I've only ever had one person do it once. And in an anthology of short stories, I wasn't available to do the short story

that I'd written and they had someone else do it. And it made it much better than anything I'd written. It's like, oh, that actually sounds like proper writing, but I don't think that's an issue that you have a problem with. Can I ask you, because bad feminist is where I became aware of you at first, the Ted talk really before anything else. But I saw the Ted talk of bad feminist. I'm going to ask you two things about it. First of all, how do you do a Ted talk really before anything else. But I saw the Ted talk of bad feminists.

I'm going to ask you two things about it. First of all, how do you do a Ted talk? Who finds you to do a Ted talk? Do you apply? No, someone from Ted reached out to me and asked if I would be interested in doing a Ted talk at Ted Women, which no longer exists, but at the time it did.

And I was really scared because I don't like public speaking and I know that TED is a really big audience. However, they work with you very closely and they, you know, there's a reason why TED Talks look so good and sounds so good and it's because for six months before the TED Talk, they're working with you on the talk and so on. Unfortunately, I rewrote my talk the night before. So the thing we had been working on was something entirely different from what I performed.

It's quite interesting though, because when I watch that now, because I looked at the TED Talk again, I'd seen it, you know, I think it was like 2015 or 2016 or something, wasn't it? It was a long time ago. I think it was like 2015 or 2016 or something, wasn't it? It was a long time ago. It was. When I went back on it and looked at it, you don't seem as confident performing then as you do now. There's been a real kind of movement, I think, for you

in terms of familiarity and confidence on stage. Does that happen in writing too? Yes, it does. I still, I think most writers have a certain level of insecure, not insecurity per se, but anxiety about the work and is it good enough? And have I said what I wanted to say, how I wanted to say it? But I'm almost 50 years old now

and I've been writing for a long time. Yeah. I'm almost 50 years old now and I've been writing for a long time. And so, you know, when you've been doing it as long as I have, there are certain things that I'm more confident about absolutely, you know. But does that lead you to get more personal because, you know, your memoirs and stuff like that come a little bit later in your career, right? They does it help you become more personal as you get more confident? No, it actually makes me feel like getting a little less personal. Oh really?

It does, and only because the internet has become a lot more hostile than it used to be. Yeah, I think so. I've always been careful about what I share, despite what people may think, I'm a very private person. So I've always known what I'm sharing and why and what I've held back for myself. But it feels like especially as what is whatever they're calling it now, as Twitter has devolved into whatever it is now, and other social media platforms have gone in a similar direction.

There's just less, I mean, people have opinions and I respect that. You don't have to love everything I do. I get it, you know, I'm flawed like everyone else, but there's a difference between criticism and just cruelty and... I agree. And I think there's also the idea of that you have to be hostile to someone who doesn't have the same opinion of you seems like an odd thing. And that seems like universal on the kind of social platforms that if someone doesn't

have the same opinion as me, then it's not the opinion that you challenge, it's the person themselves that add hominem thing. Yes, and you're right. Everyone does it. I've done it and I'm trying to do better because I mean, there are certain opinions, like if you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi. There's a limit. I understand.

Absolutely. I'm absolutely going to tell you how horrible you are. And I've been talking about this quite a lot lately at events, but we are in a very inelastic age where people are becoming more and more brittle and calcified and have decided that it's their way or no way. And you know, when we believe what we believe, and oftentimes we believe it very deeply, but there's no way to reach other people

if we are that calcified. I'm not suggesting that if we all sit together in a circle and hold hands, the world will be a better place. And when it comes to certain issues that people are particularly committed to, there is no compromise. Like you can't compromise on the value of human life. You can't compromise on the ills of terrorism or war. And so it's a question of, well, then how do we talk about

these differences of opinion? How do we talk about these issues on which we profoundly disagree? And the answer is, I don't know. And sometimes I wonder, do we even bother? I hope we do, but talking is not going to be enough. Is there a, is this maybe a product of recent, I mean, because I can be as negative about recent times as anybody. And I can say, you know, this is, this is a time when everyone, everything is polarized and everything is, you know, we can't get along. But it also seems to me, maybe a contrary position is I can't think of any, of any time and maybe I'm wrong about this, but I can't think of a time in human history where people attempted to try and get along.

It was like, no, we're the king, no, we're the other king, or we think the biscuit turns into Jesus. No, we don't think the biscuit turns into Jesus. And there was no attempt to try and find a, there was very little in the way of attempt to find common ground. And I think maybe the frustration of current times, and maybe I'm wrong, I'd like to know what you think, is the idea that we are trying to try and find a way to live in some kind of compromise.

I think some people are, but clearly not everyone. Of course not. No, no, no. I think some people are, but clearly not everyone. I do think there are a lot of people that... I do think there are a lot of people who genuinely want to compromise, who want to find a way for all of us to coexist. But there are so many who don't. And we're seeing this right now, particularly with regard to the current political climate and the election, where Republicans, or at least a version of Republicans that are currently in power, are

doing everything they can to try and rid this country of immigrants. And quite frankly, almost all of us are immigrants, including them, as though they're in denial. I serve that up. I mean, it's an interesting thing though, because, you know, like most things, it becomes extremely, you know, I mean, at what point do you join the argument? Do you know what I mean? It's like, like right now there's this thing about illegal immigrants and I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts of the politics of it because I feel like the minute that we do our conversation becomes, you know, about that. And what I'm more interested in is the idea of coping with or addressing the disagreement

and dealing with the fact that we do have to share the same space and we do have wildly different opinions. And how does the United States of America and the world really, how do we share the same space if people have radically different opinions? Even to the, yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say, the challenge is that xenophobia is not an opinion. And I don't think that we should treat it as legitimate.

When you are saying that there are groups of people and they tend to be people who are brown or black, when you say that those people are criminal, that they eat pets, that whatever, ludicrous, that's not actually an opinion. There's nothing to counteract that with. Because if you are so far gone as to believe that, then there's nothing we're going to really talk about.

And that's where the problem is. Just in case anybody cuts up this conversation with, because if you are so far gone as to believe that, then there's nothing we're going to really talk about. And that's where the problem is. Just in case anybody cuts up this conversation in bite-sized chunks, let's be clear, it's not me that has the opinion. Because it's like, wow, did he say that? No, no, no, I'm talking about people are in this conversation. So let me ask you this, let's go back to bad feminists just for me because that was the jumping off point for me because you took a recognizable, I want to say is feminism a polemic?

Is it fair to say that it's an idea, right? You took an idea of modern feminism and you extrapolated it in a way which I hadn't seen done before. You had, can you explain it a little? Because I don't want to explain your work to you, you explain it to me. Yes I don't want to explain your work to you. You explain it to me. Yes. So my first essay collection, Bad Feminists, which came out 10 years ago, which is hard to believe, was really my way of thinking through my relationship to feminism, particularly given that oftentimes we expect feminists to be perfect, to have entirely consistent ideas and ideologies.

And ideally we all should, but we're human. And I wanted to be able to write about feminism while also acknowledging my humanity, my flaws. And so it's part personal essays, lots of cultural criticism, where I'm looking at various books, film, television, cultural trends, but from a black feminist perspective and from a bad feminist perspective, if you will. What is the term bad feminist? Why does it be bad? Why is it bad? Is it just different?

It was partly tongue in cheek when I came up with the title. Right, that's why I figured, yeah. Yeah, because I was thinking about my feminism when I was writing the title essay, and I was like, well, I'm definitely a feminist, but I'm actually kind of bad at it. Because, like, you know, one of the examples I use in the book is that I love hip-hop, and so much of hip-hop is degrading to women and misogynistic. And it's a problem. And I want to be able to talk about that, but I mean, if a certain thong comes on,

I'm going to probably dance. And so I thought maybe I should just call myself a bad feminist. It was also a bit more serious in that traditionally, feminism, mainstream feminism, has prioritized the needs of middle class white women and heterosexual women, women who are not disabled and things like that. And they've always told more marginalized groups, we'll get to you later, we have to first lift all women up as if we're not women too. And so if that's good feminism, I repudiate that and I'm absolutely a bad feminist.

So it's part tongue in cheek, part critique. It's an interesting situation because, I mean, it's completely, I mean, I completely agree with what you say. I wonder though, if feminism is gender specific, and then when you, obviously, I mean, it's about, it's about the rights of, correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't know what I'm saying here, but if feminism is about equality of the sexes,

let's say that, is that fair thing to say? And no, I mean, I think that it's a, yes, I mean, on the surface, sure, but it's more than equality. It's about equity because equality suggests that if we give everyone the same resources, things will turn out the same, but that's not true. And so what we need to figure out is how do we make sure that everyone has equal access to what they need in order to thrive? And for different groups of people, it might be different things.

And so I tend to focus more on equity than equality. But yeah, it's really about how do we have gender equity? How do we make it such that women are safe? Women have bodily autonomy. Women are listened to, not attacked, et cetera. Equal pay for equal work. So for equal work, support in the home in terms of a more equal distribution of domestic responsibility between the genders for people who are in heterosexual relationships.

And the reality is that feminism is for everyone. And when women do better, everyone does better. Children do better, men do better. And so it's always interesting that there's resistance to feminism because it helps men too. There are all kinds of cultural responsibilities that we place on men that don't help them, that don't serve them, that force them to have to try and live up to some ideal of what masculinity is. And if we start to rethink what gender is and what it means, and what roles we are assigned to, and we can challenge all of that, I think it just makes everyone happier, safer, and better off.

I agree. If what you say is true, and I believe it is, where does the resistance come from then? Who would resist that? It seems like it's common sense. If it helps everyone, why wouldn't everyone want to do it? What's the motive, do you think, behind the idea of not allowing the change? Well, that is the question. And, you know, that is the question. Why? Why are so many people so resistant to gender equity? And part of it is that it challenges the systemic power

that we have all been raised with, and a lot of times when you hold power, you don't want to share it. We see this all the time, whether it's presidents refusing to see it or older people refusing to step aside. What Biden did this year was incredibly rare. It just rarely happens. Over at Saturday Night Live, Lauren Michaels is like, yeah, I'm going to ride this horse until it's dead.

It's just like, wow, you don't think there's anyone else in this country or this world who could run SNL, not like you, but as well. And so people get very attached to power and we're human. So I understand, but are we so attached to power that we harm ourselves? But power is connected to fear as well, I suppose. If I don't have this power, then I'm vulnerable. I am in danger if I don't have this power or I'm mortal. I'll die or I won't be able to continue if I don't have what I have right now. Absolutely. And also, I think there's an element of fear that... Excuse me. I know how I've treated people with this power, and I don't want that to happen to me.

So, you know, it becomes a bit of a... That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, you get yourself, I mean, like, as you say, you're coming up on 50 years old or you're 50 years old, you're arguably the peak of, you know, human productivity and, you know, you're firing on all cylinders right now. At what point do you think I'm going to stand back? How do you know it's time to step down or step away? That's a good question.

With writing, you know, it's an art. It's something that is pleasurable. And I think most writers tend to write until they have nothing left to say. And I'm not there yet, but I don't know. I'm going to write until I don't like it anymore. I think plenty of writers keep going well after they get nothing left to say. But I think that it's kind of interesting though, because it requires a degree of self-examination that is unpleasant.

You know, it's unpleasant to look at yourself and go, am I done? I always equate it, because I think this, I do stand up comedy for a living and I think to myself, well, you know, I'm 62 years old. Why am I getting, what am I complaining about? You know, when I was young, I'd go, ah, see those things, I don't like those things and those other things. And what about those guys? And I don't really, I don't really have anything to say about that.

I've said all the things I had to say about that. But now I find myself talking to my contemporaries about the fact that it's fallen apart, I suppose, that I'm older, and so the things that I observe are different. The problem I have with it is sometimes you distance yourself from the people that you were talking to 20 years ago. Maybe they didn't go with you, maybe they didn't travel with you, because things do change.

An intelligent mind will alter over time. Mm-hmm. And which is good, actually. I would hope that, like I said, you know, when you asked earlier, have I changed my opinions on anything? Not really, but I hope that I'm doing better work and more thoughtful work and more nuanced work now than 10 years ago, 15 years ago. I hope that I'm still growing, that I'm still evolving. I think I am.

I think you are. It's fairly obvious that there is a development across your career. I talked to Tony Scott, A.O. Scott from the New York Times film and literary critic recently, and he said when he was younger, he took, I mean, he still feels the same about what he likes and what he doesn't like and how he approaches it. But he said when he was young, he felt like every film he didn't like or every piece of work he didn't like was almost like a personal affront or like a crime that he had to fight against. And I wonder if, is there anywhere, I mean, it was interesting, you said earlier, as you

get older, it seems to push you more progressive and you get more, is there anything where you thought, I really was very angry about that, but I see now that maybe there's another approach to it. You still don't like it, it can still be an injustice, but there may be a different technique to handle it. No. Good, that's funny. It's a fair answer. You must never go...

No, you can't ever be a politician because this, because you just said, nah, I don't think there is. No, I really can't ever be a politician. I have less than zero desire to be a politician. I think I tend to have some generosity toward myself when I look back at my work, not because I think it's perfect, but it's because I know I did the best I could with the skills and the knowledge that I had at the time. I don't lose fire as I get older, but I think I have become more judicious about where I aim my fire. Okay.

So that's what I would say. I would say it's less everything deserves my approbation and more, let me be a little bit more targeted. Let me be a little more careful. So I think I've gotten more careful and more thoughtful. More skillful, thoughtful. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. What about the hate and the abuse that anyone who expresses an opinion will get? And you express your opinions eruditely and loudly and in an arena where people can, you know, in topics where people have a lot of nasty and bad things to say.

Do you have any, do you ignore it? Do you process it? How do you deal with it? Depends. I, it's, it's challenging. It is the hardest part of what I do because I just, when you're a writer, you don't really assume that people are going to read your work. You tend to think I'm going to be writing into a void and there's not much I can do

about that. And when you are lucky enough to find an audience and then be able to sustain that audience, you don't only have people in your audience who agree with you, of course, nor should you want that. You have people who disagree and then you have people who disagree so passionately that they want to tell you about it. And then you have the trolls and there are quite a lot of trolls. And so I struggle with it And that's why I left Twitter. I was just I was I couldn't do it anymore. I loved Twitter when it was good

It was such a great place. It was a lot of fun. Wasn't it back in the day? It was so much fun. I know I remember it And it was on there for like 17 years and now it's a complete cesspool. Yeah, it's really bad It's just so frustrating. I think all of it went that way. I loved it. I got into it, like, I don't know, it was about 2010 or something like that. Eddie Isard got me into it and said, you know, it's just a great way to contact people and

sell tickets and it's revolutionized. It's going to change the world. And I was like, great. And it was. And then very quickly, well, not very quickly, just over time it became, because these people, the people that were mean used to be an anomaly. And now it seems like it's almost that's what you do on these things.

It's, yes, because especially the way the algorithms have been honed, they prioritize interaction, and the things that receive the most interaction tend to be negative encounters, disagreements, pylons, etc. It's really unfortunate that tech has decided that this is the way forward and that so many of us have succumbed to that. But it's so hard not to. And I've written about this because I do think about it quite a lot. And I think part of it is that most of us have relatively little power in our day to

day lives. And then you can go online and you can point out an injustice, great or small, and people will listen to you. And they will join you in the crusade, oftentimes mindlessly, but they'll join you nonetheless. And I think that's intoxicating for a lot of people. And even that I can understand. But then it goes a bit further. And there are the people who make threats and some of those threats are idle, but many

of them are not. And you don't know which one is which. So you have to take them all seriously. Yeah, that's right. And that becomes really, that's the hardest part is not knowing like, is this death threat real or is this just someone having a little weird fun? So that's frustrating and it's unfortunate because I think we should be able to disagree. You can even like dislike me, you can make fun of me, but why does it get to threats?

Why do you think that's sort of the next level? I think perhaps it's, look, I'm not trying to make excuses for anybody, but I think observing it, the behavior of it, to me it seems it's kind of like an announcement that I don't have the skill to do anything else. You know, it's like I don't have the skill to do anything else. You know, it's like I don't have the skill to disagree with you. I don't have the wherewithal or the intelligence or the education to combat you on a point I just instinctively want to lash out. And I have the only thing I have is insult.

Do you know what I mean? It's like, I feel like it's a little bit like hecklers at a stand up show. Most people are just there, you know, and for the show. And then, but that little bit, there's a friend of mine, a country singer called Trace Atkins. I was saying to him, Hey, what do you, I was asking him about social media. I said, most people are fine. And he said, yeah, but the way I look at it, it only takes one turd in the pool

to make me not want to get in there. And I go like, yeah, I understand. So what do you do? How do you combat it? Do you shut it down? Do you have security? What do you do? It depends. I have security? What do you do? It depends.

I have security at most of my events, which is again something I never imagined, but many of the threads are directed to the venues where I'm doing events. And I speak at a lot of colleges and I teach at a college. And that gives me a lot of pause because not only am I there, but other people's children are there. And everybody has someone's child. Everyone is just a human in their own right. And nobody should be in danger because they're

going to listen to a writer they want to hear. And the writer themselves should not be in danger because you disagree with their opinions. But there have been bomb threats. there have been threats of mass violence, and given this country's penchant for mass violence with AR-15s and the like, you have to take every single threat seriously. So it, you know, several years ago, I started noticing these security guards or bodyguards or whatever at my events.

And then they started like standing closer and closer to me throughout the events. And I was like, oh, this is getting real in a way I never anticipated. And I experienced fear. I mean, it is frightening. It's terrifying. Does it affect what you does it affect what you how you I think I know the answer to this, but does it affect what you write? No. That's what I thought. I, you know, the minute I change what I write or what I say, the minute I don't go out on

stage, I capitulate. And I mean, we always capitulate one way or another to different things, but not on this. I mean, every time I walk out on stage, I just wonder, it's today the day. And that's a horrible feeling. Nobody should have to feel that way. Nobody. And so I don't relish it, especially I'm married, happily married. So I always worry about my wife who also receives threats now. And my parents, people have hunted down my parents who are like, my mom has cancer, my

dad is 79, 78. What are you people thinking? These people are the best people in the world. They have never harmed anyone. Why would you take it that far? Just because I wrote something. And the reality is, and my critics will be the first to tell you this, I'm not that radical. I'm a centrist in many ways and I'm not proud of it.

I've been pushing myself further left for many years, but I am not the most radical writer or thinker out there. So what exactly are you responding to here that has you so incensed that you have decided to take up spreads. It's baffling. Well, you know, you're a gay black woman, so right there. It's like, okay, there's a certain subsect that are already mad at you before you even say anything.

You know? I know. Yeah. It's so frustrating because I think the radicalization of people is, maybe this is naive, but don't you feel sometimes that if you could reach people on a... This sounds awful even, but there's some people that feel like if I could sit you down and reach you on your own and have a conversation with you, I feel like I could get to you. And I wonder sometimes if writing isn't an attempt to do that. If you can read, you can change your mind.

I would love to believe that were the case. And of course that certainly motivates a lot of what I do, the belief that you can reach other people. And I do believe there are people who are reachable. I also believe there are people who are unreachable. And I do think I know the difference, but clearly, and history has borne this out time and time again, sometimes we need something more than reaching people.

And like, what do we do with the people that can't be reached? And there's no solution I can even begin to think of, because I believe in free speech first and foremost. But I also believe that of course there should be consequences. If you say terrible things, if you make threats, if you say violently racist or xenophobic or homophobic or transphobic things, you don't have to be put in prison. That's not realistic, but maybe you don't get to enjoy public life as much anymore.

Maybe people will push back and tell you what they think about your trash opinions. And maybe you will lose opportunities because people don't want to be associated with that kind of bigotry. So I would love to believe that we could find ways of addressing these issues while preserving the sanctity of free speech. And I think thus far we kind of have, but there seems to be very little deterrent right now for people to say any old thing and get away with it. And that's, you know, I guess that's life.

You know, it's funny that I was, I was reading a book recently about a Gore Vidal book called Empire. It was one of the novels of Empire series and in it there's a discussion or a part where it recounts when William Randolph Hearst at the early part of the 20th century had presidential ambitions, but he published a quatrain by Ambrose Pierce that foreshadowed the assassination of President McKinley. And because of what happened there, basically William Randolph Hearst's political career, the reaction to that, basically he incited violence or it was perceived to be incited violence against a certain president. He was cancelled for one of a better word.

He still was an immensely powerful, immensely wealthy man who owned a lot of newspapers and did whatever he did. But he didn't get to go further in what he wanted to do at that time, which was to be president of the United States. And I wonder if, if there is a specific call to violence for an individual, that's not free speech. Absolutely. That's not, that's not free speech.

Free speech is opinion. Free speech is, you know, the Voltaire thing. I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. I think that was Voltaire, right? Certainly some clever French bloke. And I think that, but the idea that I should be able to say what I want about you, it's not actually free speech. I think free speech contains, it's about the polemic,

it's about opinions, it's about what you do. Cause I read you, I don't agree with everything you say. And I certainly don't wanna talk to you about the stuff that I don't agree with you about. But what I do think is that you put it forward in a way which is this is what I think. You know, this is what I believe. And that I think is free speech. I think to threaten someone with violence is a very different thing.

I don't think that's free speech. I don't either, but I do know that free speech absolutists will definitely suggest that that's part of free speech. And I recognize that, you know, we have become very fast and loose with the constitution, but only in ways that are self-serving. Like when you, and I recently wrote an essay about gun ownership and the Second Amendment and the ways in which it has kind of run amok. And when you look at the Second Amendment, which is like 14 words long, you'd see people

who defend their right to own assault weapons. People are very, people interpret things the way they want to. And that is... Whatever it is, though. That's the problem. And I think the eternal conundrum is trying to live with people that you'd rather not live with. Whether it's your family or a whole swath of the country. It's difficult. whether it's your family or a whole swath of the country.

It's difficult. You, when you were growing up, you're from an immigrant family. Your family are Haitian, is that right? Yes. Now, I'm an actual immigrant. I immigrated here, but my children, of course, are first generation. And the values that I brought into the, with me,

are not quite the same. I actually had one of my oldest kids said to me once, dad, I don't need to know this. It's not Glasgow in the 1970s. I don't need to behave like this. You know, this is of no use to me. I can't remember what it was. It was something about carrying a stick in your trousers or something.

And I think that, did you experience conflict with the generation that came before because you're the child of immigrants? Because are your values very different to your parents than the generation before you? I mean, there was definitely conflict, particularly because Haitian culture is very, I love my culture. It's very, it's just unique. And but Haitian parents, especially my parents, their generation are incredibly strict. And so there were all kinds of things that my brothers and I wanted to do growing up

that we were not allowed to do. And that was incredibly frustrating. And so there was oftentimes conflict about that. And it could be things like as simple as I want to spend the night at a friend's house, which absolutely no non-starter with a Haitian parent, at least for a long time. And so... I'm totally with your parentsian parent, at least for a long time. And so... I'm totally with your parents on this, by the way. I have to say.

I mean, looking back now, I'm like, yeah, they were kind of on to something there. Yeah. But, you know, what's interesting is that now I recognize, I not even recognize, now I understand what they were talking about. Now I understand what they were talking about. Now I understand what they were worried about. And I have a lot more patience, I guess, might be the word. But oh yeah, there was definitely, there's always going to be conflict. And sometimes we just be like, you just don't understand.

And they'd be like, no, you don't understand. But it was okay. Well, here's the thing though, you teach and you speak at academic institutions, which of course by the very nature are predominantly filled with young people. Do you find yourself in conflict in a generational term with opinions that you are surprised

that you would be in conflict with them about, I'm kind of speaking for myself here as well. Like why am I not having you for this? Yeah, all the time. It's so hard. I'm teaching, I teach and I've been teaching for 15, 20 years now and I love it, but I feel like I'm getting to the point where I don't necessarily want to do it anymore. The kids are great.

And they're allowed to be young. It's just this particular generation, it's challenging. Every generation has this. So I know that the generation, like Baby Boomers feel this way about my generation, Gen X, Gen X feels this way about Gen Z and Gen Y or whatever the fuck. But they just partly, especially for the kids I'm teaching now, they have known only COVID for college. So they didn't even get a traditional beginning of the college experience. And so they're dealing with the cultural trauma of a pandemic and the political fractures since 2016. And there's a lot of challenges. And they're also able to articulate

mental health issues in a way that feels very anathema to someone my age. Like, sometimes it's just like, oh my God, they all speak and therapy speak. It's not a bad thing. I think it's great for people to talk about mental health and to talk about their feelings and to advocate for themselves. But for someone who's a little older, it's just, okay, I have to learn all about this now. But then also there's just the little stuff like I had a student named Faith a couple

semesters ago and I was like, oh, Faith, it's taking all my self control not to sing Faith to you. And she looked me dead in the eye blank. And she was like, what's that? And I was just like, come on. Well, I mean, you must have people do it and say, take all my effort to not sing Roxanne to you as well. I mean, you get it.

No one sings Craig though. No one's going to Craig so. And we're a little lesser for it, but there should be one. Roxanne, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I am a huge fan of your work and I, and I, like I say, I don't agree with you on everything and I love that, that you and I can sit and have a conversation for 45 minutes. Absolutely. And that really doesn't have to come up. What we can talk about is interesting, well to me very interesting. I hope it's not been too much of a chore. More power to

you. Keep on it. Don't give up and don't let the bastards grind you down. I won't, thank you so much Craig, this has been a delight. Thanks for the time.