Joy, a Podcast. Hosted by Craig Ferguson - Rufus Wainwright

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Meet Rufus Wainwright, praised by the New York Times for his “genuine originality,” Rufus Wainwright has established himself as one of the great male vocalists, songwriters, and composers of his generation. The New York-born, Montreal-raised singer-songwriter has released ten studio albums to date, three DVDs, and three live albums including the Grammy-nominated Rufus Does Judy at Carnegie Hall. He has collaborated with artists such as Elton John, Burt Bacharach, Miley Cyrus, David Byrne, Boy George, Joni Mitchell, Pet Shop Boys, Heart, Carly Rae Jepsen, Robbie Williams, Jessye Norman, Billy Joel, Paul Simon, Sting, and producer Mark Ronson, among many others. He has written two operas, numerous songs for movies and TV, and is currently working on his first musical for the West End and a Requiem. His latest GRAMMY® and JUNO nominated album of original songs, Unfollow the Rules, finds Wainwright at the peak of his powers, entering artistic maturity with passion, honesty, and a new-found fearlessness. His newly-released studio album Folkocracy features reinvented folk duets with artists like Chaka Khan, Brandi Carlile, John Legend and Anohni and many more. Catch Rufus on tour, dates available here: https://rufuswainwright.com/tour/. EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm N.K. and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds. But by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care.

Oh look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Justin Richmond, host of the Broken Record podcast. Every week, I or my cohost, Leah Rose, sit down with the artists you love to get unparalleled creative insight. Our new series is looking at one of the most influential jazz labels ever, Blue Note Records. You'll hear from artists like legendary bassist Ron Carter, singer-songwriter

Noah Jones, and guitarist Julian Lodge. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Jeremy Hobson. The election is just days away, and on the middle podcast, we open the phones to everyday Americans. Hi, this is Anna from Tennessee. This is Amari Connell from Houston. I find it's always good to talk things out rather than bottling things up. So why not open the conversation up to our closest neighbor, Canada? They are America's biggest trading partner after all, and even though they can't vote, our election does matter to them.

So keep an ear out for a special cross-border conversation only on The Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Craig Ferguson Pants on Fire Tour is on sale now. It's a new show. It's new material. But I'm afraid it's still only me, Craig Ferguson, on my own, standing on a stage, telling comedy words.

Come and see me, buy tickets, bring your loved ones, or don't come and see me. Don't buy tickets and don't bring your loved ones. I'm not your dad. You come or don't come, but you should at least know it's happening. And it is. The tour kicks off late September and goes through the end of the year and beyond. Tickets are available at thecraigfergussonshow.com slash tour. They're available at thecraigfergussonshow.com slash tour

or at your local outlet in your region. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. I talk to interesting people about what brings them happiness. My guest today is one of the, to my mind, one of the most important artists working in America today. He is a singer, he is a songwriter, he is a composer. and I, you know, I'm not really that comfortable around people with great talent, but he's very personal, as you will see.

Let me tell you what I'm doing, which is I'm breaking my rules by a, uh, I really wanted to talk to you in person because I feel like that helps and B or two, I, um, I don't normally have, I, there's a couple of people that I've never ever, uh, wanted. I kind of break my own rules a little bit. I never invited David Bowie on my old late night show because I thought, what if it doesn't work out? What if he's horrid? And I've had the same problem with you and Sting.

You, David Bowie and Sting. I'm like, I don't know if this is going to work. So this is really, if it works out okay with you, then I'll book Sting. But other than that, it's not happening. Yeah, coupled white male. There we go. You worked with him, didn't you? Didn't you do a tour together with him? I worked with Sting a few times and I knew David somewhat.

He came to a few of my shows back in the day and we actually even had a bit of a, not a disagreement, but a misunderstanding at one point early on, which was very exciting. It sounds very exciting. Can I ask what it was about? Yeah, no, it was, what had happened is that we were both doing this Tibet house benefit. I was very young. I was, uh, I think I was 23 or something and we were both doing this benefit and I was also making an album at the time. I was making want one. I was a little older than twice. I was more, God, anyways. So I'm getting up there.

And- Oh, tell me about it. I'm 62. I know. It's crazy. But anyways- It's horrifying. I was making a record and I was using a lot of David's musicians, most notably this great

guy called, oh God, okay, now it's going to happen. Great guitar player, spooky ghost is Jerry Leonard, great guitar player. And then I had his drummer and so forth. And I think David Bowie felt a little bit scared that I was poaching his band at the time, like, which I wasn't aware of, but that was sort of an underlying thing that he had. Anyways, we were doing this show together for the Tibet House benefit and there was this quartet, a string quartet that was playing that was also that David Bowie had brought

in to do with him. And I said, well, there's a quartet available, maybe I'll do something with the quartet as well. And it was kind of offered in that way. So I rehearsed with the quartet, gave them something to do. And then the first time I met David Bowie, who when he was sitting there, he was thinking, this guy's trying to steal all my musicians. He was just like that. The first thing I said to him was, hey, David, thank you so much for letting me work with your musicians. Very clever. to him was, hey David, thank you so much for letting me work with your musicians. Like it was the first thing I brought up and it kind of took the, and I was talking about the quartet just because they were there.

But then he used to have this woman with him, Coco, who would hang out, who was sort of his protector, this woman. And she immediately shielded him from me and was like, get away and like, don't, you know, I don't know. So, it was not a great first meeting. But then subsequently, he understood that I wasn't going to steal his entire band. And then he, you know, was fine and he came to a lot of shows and it was fine. It's funny because I always sort of imagine musicians to have a sort of collegiate environment where they are quite open and collaborative with each other.

But I suspect maybe as you, there are maybe egos involved as well. Yeah, slightly, slightly. Maybe it's not quite like that. Slightly, I mean, look, what always struck me the most about David is how almost childlike he was still. I mean, in the sense that he was, he still has such a sense of wonder about everything. Like when he went to see my show and I get in and I think he enjoyed it, I could really tell that he was dumbfounded by what he saw.

And I'm sure it was, that's the way he was like with a lot of things that he loved. You know, it was like a genuine kind of openness. And, but that comes, you know, with also a little bit of, you know, childlike anger. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I wonder if you have the same, if you have the same thing, because you, you travel across many different type genres of music, it seems to me effortlessly, like you just inhabit one and then move to another, you can move from folk to jazz to, you know,

a Broadway kind of razzmatazz and remain yourself within it. Is there a sense of, do you have a sense of wonder about it? Do you retain a sense of wonder about music? I have to maintain a sense of wonder about everything in my life in order not to, you know, I'm not going to say slit my wrist. That's a little overdramatic, but you know, to certainly- I understand.

To certainly function, I have to keep that spark going. And yes, it enables me to, I think what I've managed to do, which is pretty good, is that I've managed to sort of, you know, I dropped out of school twice. Like first I dropped out of music school, then I dropped out of art school. Like, I never received a major education in college. And I think that was a real saving grace for me, because therefore I never really felt like I totally knew what was happening or what I was doing. Or like, I never had a degree to be like, no, I'm, it's official because I would find that.

So I'm always, so I always feel like I'm, I'm learning as I go along. And that's, um, yeah, I think it's important to try to remain ignorant a little bit. It's funny. I, I, I'm fascinated by that. Take on it because I, how, how, you know, your experience of you, because I find you like, I mean, I know and love your work, but I've, I know next to nothing about you. I mean, I know what's available on the internet, but I feel like your work and, and in a way,

I know that it's probably a comparison that's done a lot, but I had the same kind of feeling with Leonard Cohen's work that I felt there was a kind of humorous, almost Gothic menace with a sense of fun, which I could never quite pin down. I feel like it's contained somewhere in a minor chord somewhere, or maybe it's that super kind of weird Canadian intellectual world that I find fascinating. Yeah. Well, it's a little bit, I think the Canadian aspect cannot be underestimated in the sense that, look, I was born in the US, I was born in New York.

My dad's loudness is American, has lived in New York his whole life. But my mother, Kate McGarrago, was Canadian and yes, when I passed the force, I moved to Canada and was brought up there mainly. And I do feel that there is this kind of, and it kind of also interestingly enough relates to Scotland and to England is that, you know, growing up and the fact that it was Quebec, which adds, has a whole other, with the whole French thing. Anyways, is that you're in this strange world where you're part of a fated empire, you know, and it's even more, it was much more pronounced, like in the eighties, it was so pronounced

in Canada as opposed to in England where it was, it had become sort of, you know, they'd had enough. And certainly in Scotland. And, but it was still so trying to be English, but then you're right next to the United States, you know, which is just so dominant. And then I was also in Quebec, so we're all doing this in French. And so you just develop this strange perspective, I guess, of both, you know, being in the middle of everything and also being totally, nobody can understand where you come from.

So it's, yeah, being Canadian has definitely influenced me as an artist. It has a weird kind of, I wonder if it's something to do with the darkness. I always think that in Scotland, just the fact that there's no light for half a year really, and it somehow makes a different sort of person. What's interesting is growing up in Quebec, in Canada, and we had incredibly cold winters, which sadly I don't think they're as cold

as they used to be, but they were, you know, these gothically cold winters with a lot of snow. And the whole thing of like how Russia, you know, whatever, the Soviet Union was this evil empire that, you know, that nobody could understand. We kind of got it. We were like, oh no, we kind of related more to the Soviet Union in terms of what we had to go through in terms of winter.

Because at least even you, even you guys had like the Gulf Stream, you know. Right, that's right. We would get a little bit of beach time. Yeah, yeah. So, so we kind of understood that, that mainly. Have you been to Russia? I went once. Yeah.

Many, many years ago and it was amazing. And I found it fascinating because I grew up, I'm older than you, but I grew up with the same information about, you know, these people are the evil, different, the, the, the Soviet thing was it's very sterile and they're all kind of like automatons and frightening. And I went there and it's very, did you go to Moscow? Yeah, I went to Moscow. Did you go to the, because I went to Red Square in Moscow. I thought it was, it's about, it's, it seems to me very high arch camp villainy.

It was fabulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was fabulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, And, you know, and then once I got there, I felt it was even more pronounced. What I will say though, is that of late, and now I'm just going on and on because I tend to do that, is that I was just in Greece for a wedding and I'd never been to a Greek Orthodox wedding. I've been to a lot of Catholic weddings, I've been to a lot of Protestant weddings or whatever, but I'd never been to a Greek Orthodox one and it really struck me how different it was from the Western, how different the Eastern church is from the Western church. It's such a divide. And, um, and I know it's sort of harkened back to that, that's what the difference is.

It's that- Do you have a connection to a church? No, I don't. I mean, I'm, look, I was brought up in a very Catholic place. I went to Catholic school. I was never baptized. My mother was highly affected by the church, she was brought up by nuns and somewhat traumatized by that.

And for instance, recently I wrote a Requiem Mass that premiered in Paris, and there's actually going to be in LA at Disney Hall in May. It has a narrator part in it and Jane Fonda will be the narrator. That's fantastic. I was going to offer myself up, but if you already got Jane, that's fine. You know what she did? That's precisely what she did. Really? Yeah, because I was at an event with her.

I didn't know her too well, but we were just talking. And then I said, oh yeah, we just come, I was just in Paris where we premiered the rec, it was called the Dream Requiem. And there's a narrator part in it. And in Paris, Meryl Streep did it in Paris. Okay. So, and I said, you know, Jane, we're going to bring it to LA and we're going to do it at Disney Hall. And then Jane went, I'm doing it. I was like, what? She was like,

I'm doing it. And she immediately hired herself. And she's Jane Fonda. Yeah. And I was like, okay. Yeah, yeah, I guess that's it. But pertaining to the religious thing, yeah, that's sort of, I'm not religious, but I'm affected by it somehow. Once again, we find ourselves in an unprecedented election. And with all that's happening in the lead up to the big day, a weekly podcast just won't cut it. Get a better grasp of where we stand as a nation every weekday on the MPR Politics podcast. Here our seasoned reporters dig into the issues that are shaping

voters' decisions and understand how the latest updates play into the bigger picture. Listen to the MPR Politics podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I fell two scene. Um, dragged. I'm N.K. and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl.

Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place

will tell you there's something wrong with you, and it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1982, Atari players had one thing on their minds. Sword Quest. This wasn't just a new game. Atari promised 150 grand in prizes to four finalists. But the prizes disappeared.

And what started as a video game promotion became one of the most controversial moments in 80s pop culture. I just don't believe they exist. I would feel my reaction shock and awe. That sword was amazing. It was so beautiful. I'm Jamie Loftus. Join me this spring for the Legend of Sword Quest, a podcast about the fall of Atari and the disappearing Sword Quest prizes. We'll follow the quest for lost treasure across four decades. It's almost like a metaphor for the industry and Atari itself in a way. Listen to the legend of SwordQuest on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Do you have a belief system that connects to a deity? I'm definitely not an atheist. I have a strange kind of childlike wonder, hope, whatever, that everything is connected and everything has a reason. And I'm able to sort of tie that together with my music and with my career at all. It's always, you know, fit. I wouldn't say nicely, but it's always managed to come together, shall we say. You have a kind of, it, autodidact isn't the right word, but you have a quite,

right word, but you have a quite, but you have a didactic career anyway. You have an odd kind of, are you looking for something that you're looking for something in the music? I'm a three headed monster. Cause I have, there's a, and they're all very separated. Uh, uh, one of them is the, a singer, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a real singer. Like I sing my work and I sing other people's work and stuff. And that is its own animal, who I know very little about. It's kind of this creature that appears and I kind of just have to ride and make sure that to put know, to put it back

or just, or doesn't devour other people. So, so it's this, so it's this animalistic side. Then there's the songwriter, you know, which is more sort of like where I come from, like my family, it's like our trade, you know, it's like my sisters do it, my parents did it, it's what I learned how to do, to do and I love doing it and so forth. And then there's the composer, wanting to be a composer. And I think that's really me in terms of what I- The composer?

Yeah, that's what I wanted to do as a human being. I was like, I want to, I would like to be a composer and I've managed to do that somewhat. I mean, it's not all I do, but I'm talking up this frame of requiem a lot, but it's just, it's a big deal for me. So, yeah. No, it is a big deal. But to write a requiem mass is almost like it, one would think it was, it's kind of an act of devotion in a way, right?

Yes. Well, no, what's odd about it is that, you know, I wrote a lot of it here in LA. There's a beautiful mansion in Silverlight called the Paramore Estate, which is this old, it looks like something from Sunset Boulevard. It's up on top of a hill with these incredible views. The owner, this wonderful woman, Dana, she let me use the wing of the estate to compose the Requiem. And I was there for a long time, for months.

And especially the month, I don't know if you remember, you live in LA, right? You live here? I have done, I don't anymore, but I lived there for many, many years. There was a winter, like a couple of years ago where it was just raining. It was when there was like 10 feet of snow in the mountains, like people were trapped. I think I was, I think I was there, right. Yeah, it was like the weather was just. I was certainly arrived for some of it.

Yeah. So I was kind of shacked up in this, in this estate and the estate after it had been privately owned had been turned into, into a Catholic girls school. So there was all these crosses and you know, Virgin Mary's everywhere and, and, and, and it just, I don't know, it just poured out of me all of these religious kind of feelings and especially working with the Latin Mass. And I was a little frightened at how easily it came forth. And in the end, I decided, I may not be Catholic or anything, but I would say that certainly in the world we live in right now, which is so crazy and so troubling, there is a need

for some real Christian values. And I'm not talking about the church. I'm not talking about like, you know, but just like, be good, you know, do, thou shall not kill, you know. Everyone be nice. And let's save the poor and be good to the poor. And like, you know, these kind of simple Christian things, which are very touching and, and we, and the world still needs, even though, you know, you don't have to do it as a religious

person necessarily. And even the religious people aren't doing it right now, which is, which is pretty scary. It's a real conflict. Do you, I wonder if you were talking about living in the wing of this like mad old mansion as you, as you write that you write this Requiem mask. Whenever I write or if I talk to people who I write prose and other people who write prose, they use music as a place to go. A lot of people use music as a place to go to go to a place of inspiration or a place

where the doors open up or to put yourself somewhere else. And I wonder if that's possible for a musician to do or if there's some kind of other stimulus that has to, is the silence something that does it? Is the music inside your head already? It used to be alcohol and drugs. Well, I... That was a great one.

That did the trick. Now not as much. So I would say, it's funny because once we get into that conversation, I certainly was afraid when I quit drinking a long time ago that I wouldn't be inspired and I wouldn't be able to find and get into that place. I have found actually now that aging is the new kind of like inspirational thing of like not feeling so strong, not feeling more vulnerable, seeing your child have complete control over you, you know, and just, and it's sort of, and then that's when I kind of cling to songwriting and to, you know,

lyrics and stuff and, and, and, or going to a concert and hearing. I find myself much more inspired now in a deep way by, by, by, by what's hap- by what's happening around me because I've, I've, I've gotten a little older and I kind of understand it more and it's, therefore it's more frightening. Yeah, I, I think, I think the aging thing is a, is a fabulously interesting vein because I always thought, I actually, I have a tattoo right here where I normally wear my watch of Saturn, the bringer of old age. And the Saturn in Host, the Planet Suites was kind of what got me onto it because in the Planet Suite with all the kind of rumpty, tumpty, tum, bum, bum, bum, and then the Saturn piece of music is so weird.

Yeah. It's, and, and I feel like aging is, I think you really nailed aging with that, with that, these kind of weird pushing minor chords. And it's like, it's very, very odd. It's not just the mortality aspect of it. It's the whole kind of, this is, this is fine. It's also the gifts that you received from having survived and, you know, gone through these experiences.

I mean, I, one thing for me that was so necessary and, and kind of thought out when I started my career was that I wasn't going to be this kind of rock and roll tragedy where I was just this sort of flair that goes up and it's amazing and then who knows what could happen. You either disappear or you die or you kind of get bitter or something. And that's sort of why I gravitated more towards classical music as like my main love and opera and stuff because in that world, all the best music, all the greatest music is written when you're old. Like all the great composers, the heavyweights, they're all, it's always at the end of their

life where they finally kind of get into this serious space of, you know, contemplation or whatever. And so I'm, you know, I've always kind of... That makes a great deal of sense. I mean, especially if you look at the rockers that do survive, they tend to play the songs that they wrote when they were, you know, in their early twenties. The Rolling Stones are still singing, I can't get no satisfaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, after 60 years ago, they wrote that song. I mean, and it's great. It is a great song, but if you want to, I wonder sometimes what it feels like to be connected so much to a piece of your life, which is so distant. Yeah. I mean, it's funny you mention that because it is, I feel so fortunate. I mean, look, I had a lot of success when I started out, but I never quite was, I never kind of hit the summit, you know, of pop hit-ness or whatever. And that was the greatest godsend that I could have ever wished for as an artist.

Because I've always been able to just explore and go further into these other different, without having to, you know, hark. I mean, there's a couple of songs, like everybody wants to hear me sing Hallelujah. Okay, we'll do that. And maybe cigarettes and chocolate milk and poses like these kind of things. But it's not, but I'm not my whole career is dominated by those, by that work. So it's, I'm very fortunate in that way. I mean, I would have loved the financial perks of having, you know, written

Hallelujah, but whatever. I don't know though. I mean, I know quite a few very rich artists who I think would be much happier in your shoes for a few less million dollars. I think that the problem is that, particularly now, I don't know if you get any pressure to do this. I suspect not because I think you exist. I see, the way I see you,

and this may not be how you are, but the way I see you is you live within your own world. You set the limits to what you want to do. I find myself constantly fighting with people about, can you post this on Instagram? Can you do that? And I'm like, why me? Yeah, I mean, I have to do that as well.

Okay, so that makes me feel a bit better. You have to kind of play that game a little bit. And, but yes, in the end of the day, I have not, I never, whatever, I never took a bite out of the apple or whatever. You know, I just stayed true to what I wanted to do artistically. And in a lot of ways, not out of desire. It was just, I didn't know how to do anything else. You know, I just was so driven by what I heard and saw that I, that I just had to go that way.

Well, I think that's an artistic impulse though, isn't it? I mean, I think that's, that's the gift of being, of being like that. I mean, it's funny cause there's people, I mean, look, I know, you know, I'm very good friends with Neil Tennant from the, from the Pet Shop Boys and, and he's a dear friend and he, he's and he's kind of like- He was on my old late night show. He was fabulous. Yeah, and he's my favorite person to talk to about all things kind of cultural and historical and especially to do with show business and so forth.

And he, you know, really, he started as a journalist and he wrote about, you know, pop, the pop world. And so for him, like, having a pop hit was such a huge deal and really all that he, what he dreamt about. He still knows about great music and great art and stuff like that, but he was, you have to be invested in it. And he was so much, very much invested in it and he got it. And I was never invested in it, you know, and, and. Yeah, well, you come from the strange, dark, French, English, Scottish, weird Canada, you know,

the daylight, nighttime, but you know, it's, I don't know. I imagine you live in a, you know, in some kind of castle. The books are helping. Yeah, yeah. It's castle-esque. Good. Castle-esque. I actually sang at Hearst Castle over the weekend.

Yeah, I was up there. I was invited to sing in the diner, they call it the Refectory. Refectory? Refectory. Okay, yeah. But it's the dining room. But I sang there. And that was pretty

wild because when you think of who had hung out up there and you know, up on. It's a very, I'm fascinated by that time. Actually this is my, this is my pitch to you. Actually, this is what I think I am. I've been saying this to everybody because of what's going on right now Like everyone's saying oh, it's so crazy that politics have never been so crazy and it's so bad. I've got into reading Gourfi dolls narratives of Empire these it's like seven novels Set from you know America all I think it was all the way up to Watergate from the beginning of America.

Okay. And have you read them? I haven't read them. I mean, I have a big fan of this. Oh my God. Okay. Okay. You've got to read them.

Okay. Or because they have such a, in a weird way, I always found Gore Vidal's very reassuring anyway because I thought if there's somebody that somebody that clever around will be all right. Yeah. And he writes so well about the craziness that America has been going through since the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I found it, I find that stuff, it has a real gothic quality about it as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think- No, go ahead. No, no, I think you're correct. I mean, it's, this, I mean, yes, we're gearing up for what will probably be a very violent, you know, period with this. The rhetoric is very violent for sure. But there's been periods that have been way more violent. I mean, the whole thing of assassinations and people getting beat up and like mobs and stuff.

It's very much part of American culture and part of world culture. I mean, it's part of humans. It's the fight against that. The fight against that kind of impulse and darkness is, is on a big level, you know, on a societal level, it's, it's as hard to change as what you talked about earlier, the idea of moving from the self-destruction of the alcohol and the drugs and all that kind of stuff and moving away from it because it feels like agency. I think that's why people are so attracted to, you know, that kind of rhetoric and

violence, because it feels like you have agency in the world, but perhaps you don't really. And, and, and I think that, uh, I felt the same, I got sobered 32 years ago and it was, I felt the same thing that I thought, well, I don't know who I am if I, if I'm not drinking and, you know, and partying, who am I? And, and whatever, I always thought I was much funnier when I was drunk. And when I got sober, I didn't think I was as funny, but a lot of people who saw me thought I was much funnier. And it's a different perspective. Yeah, I know it is. It is so interesting. Because I even, I have the same thing. I always feel like, feel as though I was much funnier when I was stoned and stuff. But I look then at footage,

because for me it's been a long time as well, but I look at footage and I'm hilarious all the time. Because my very nature is hilarious, just whatever the voice, the way I'm kind of twiddling around and the way I see things and it's me., you know, and it's, I'm not trying to, you know, it's not an act, which is always funnier when it's not an act. I think the truth is much funnier and it's much harder to believe, but that also, that authenticity and that truth is going to lead you to, I think it seems to have

led you to the Gothic Mansion in Los Angeles, where you write the Requiem Mass or singing at Hearst Castle or not, you know, writing a surefire pop album that will get you the, you know, the Arena Tour. And I don't know, I think there's a limit to what money can do for you. Yeah. Well, I think it's also, it becomes your drug of choice then becomes artistic exploration. I mean, I'm, you know, if I'm like one of my greatest stories ever for me in terms of getting sober and what that meant. And it's something that I think about all the time is that I was many years ago, I was super high and drunk and stuff, and I went to see this production of Electra, the opera Electra by Strauss.

And it was an amazing evening. It was so wild and crazy and my head exploded and all of that. And I really loved it. And then a few months later, I had went to rehab and got sober, cut to, you know, a few months later, go to the same production of Electra, because it was still at the opera. It was just as amazing. And my head was just as blown. And it was the art that kind of went searing through.

And it was just, for me, that was such an emblematic experience of like, oh, okay, you don't need whatever, just focus on that. You know, because it has all the power. Once again, we find ourselves in an unprecedented election. And with all that's happening in the lead up to the big day, a weekly podcast just won't cut it. Get a better grasp of where we stand as a nation every weekday on the MPR Politics podcast. Here are seasoned reporters dig into the issues that are shaping voters' decisions and understand how the latest updates play into the bigger picture. Listen to the MPR Politics podcast on the

iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm N.K. and this is Baskay Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl.

Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of f***** up conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place

will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1982, Atari players had one thing on their minds, SwordQuest. This wasn't just a new game. Atari promised 150 grand in prizes to four finalists, but the prizes disappeared. And what started as a video game promotion became one of the most controversial moments

in 80s pop culture. I just don't believe they exist. I would feel my reaction shock and awe. That sword was amazing. It was so beautiful. I'm Jamie Loftus. Join me this spring for The Legend of SwordQuest, a podcast about the fall of Atari and the disappearing SwordQuest prizes. We'll follow fall of Atari and the disappearing SwordQuest

prizes. We'll follow the quest for lost treasure across four decades. It's almost like a metaphor for the industry and Atari itself in a way. Listen to the Legend of SwordQuest on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Whenever I talk to someone who's getting sober, who's artistic, and the worry is always that, is that I won't be able to create, I won't be able to write or sing or play the guitar or whatever it is, or paint. And it always seems to me that artists, really interested in artists who

are creating work while they're drunk and high, are creating that work despite the fact that they are drunk and high, not because they are drunk and high. And if you get, if you are in a situation like that, then I think it, you get frozen. Yes. Like you going, like you saying that you went moving into classical music and becoming more, you know, I'm getting older and weirder. Yeah. Which is, I think something that's hard to do if you're stuck in that.

Well the other thing too, the other thing too is that when I was in the pop world, and I still am occasionally, but it is more centered around, not centered so much now, but certainly back then, around drugs and alcohol. I mean, it was, you know, Courtney Love and, you know,

Smashing Pumpkins and everybody and Jeff Buckley. So it was sort of this very hazy time and it was fabulous in a lot of ways and I wouldn't have it any other way. When you get into the classical world, drugs and alcohol have nothing to do with anything. It's just a total other subject. Once you get on stage and you're rehearsing or you're composing something or you're presenting, it's just a hundred percent about the music and that's it.

And I've just always, that has always been very, that has helped me a lot to have that. Yeah, I think also the collaborative nature. I mean, if you're working with a 60 piece orchestra. Yeah, there's it for any snow. Yeah. And I think also the idea of collaboration with other people who are technically, if not,

if they're not writing the pieces, the way they can play, they're just as good as you in terms of being able to, you know, hit the notes on the instrument. Yeah, better in a lot of cases, you know, in a lot of ways. And I think that that, it's also like of cases, you know, in a lot of ways. And I think that that, it's also like you want to bring your game up a little bit if you're around it. I think you're right. I think it becomes, because I got sober when I was, not when I was doing stand-up, but I was doing a play. I was doing the Rocky Horror Show in the West End in London, and there

was a lot of moving parts and a lot of, I know there's a lot of, you know, like I don't think Richard O'Brien was sober at that point either. And, and, but, but you could get hurt if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, if the machine came down and it, and it kind of required you to be on top of it a little bit. Yeah. And, and, and I think that that's kind of encouraged me to... Also, I didn't...

When you see that look of disappointment on people who know you can do better, that's one of the most horrible things to see. Oh, yeah, I know that. I know that look. I know that look. Yeah. It's my least favorite look.

I try never to practice it on my children. But if I really want to torture my voice, I'll say, you know, I'm not angry. I'm just disappointed. How old are your boys now? I have a 23 year old and a 13 year old. Wow. So you're still in it. You're still in it.

Well, yeah. I mean, I've had a 13 year old daughter. Right. Well, you're dead. That's the in it. Yeah, that's the in it. And it's an interesting challenge with the generation. Right. Well, you're dead. That's the innit. Yeah, that's the innit. It's an interesting challenge with the generation.

Not so much the 13 year olds now. Like my 13 year old, I feel like I can have a direct and easier communication with him. Yeah. But my older son is very much a generation, which, yeah, we're great. We're on fine. But it's a difficult generation for me to connect with. I have to, I have to work at it a little bit because I feel like I can offend very easily. I don't want to do that. I don't want to hurt people's feelings.

And I really genuinely don't. And I feel like it's easy to do that with them. Yeah. I mean, my daughter, I think our 13 year olds are in an interesting position because I think on one hand, they're just really tough. What they've had to endure, what they've seen with the whole pandemic thing and then Trump and like there's no sugar coating to the world and phones and this. So it's very, they're on one hand and at one time there's a lot of worry some, especially

I think with daughter, I think with girls it's kind of, well, I think actually it's bad with both. But that being said, I think they have to be tough, which is a good thing. I mean, they have to, you know, they have to, they're not having it handed to them. No, it's also, I mean, I'm very grateful that I came of age in a time when my behavior

wasn't being digitized over, I mean, I made a fool of myself on a lot of evenings falling down. You know, just the truth is I sometimes like to talk up my drinking and drugging is kind of like a bad, wild sort of crazy thing. But if it was just that, I'd probably still be doing it. It wasn't, it was kind of pathetic. It's the fetal position at four o'clock in the morning. You know, it's the, it's the, it's the incontinence of mouth, you know, speech and

everywhere else, you know, the, the pathetic nature of it. I would hate to see that now. You know, and I, I, I'd be embarrassed by it. I also think, you know, the idea of, you know, people, I'm very glad that I got married and was in a stable relationship before dating apps as well, because, you know, I don't know how to, I wouldn't know how to do that. It seems to, it's, it's a, it's a law. Um, and you know, junior high school is the world is junior high school. Yes, yes, no, it certainly is. It certainly is. No, it's very, yeah. And this is the thing also as talking, when I spoke earlier about getting

older is sort of the new drug. But it is this strange kind of thing where you become, now I do feel like the nerdy teenager in the corner, like while the party's going on and like nobody's paying attention to me and I'm like kind of of a crush on, you know, whatever, like the football player, like it's like, it's just, it's just, it's, it's, it's, I've just reverted back to that, that state, which is horrible in certain ways, but it's also you really looking at the way you're kind of fascinated by the world as well. Like I've known it's, it's less, um, it, because it's more, more scary, it then

becomes more interesting. Well, it contains, it contains terrors that I hadn't, I hadn't counted on. The idea of my own, you know, crumbling is less frightening to me than the fact that, you know, I have children and I, you know, I love them more than I can understand. I don't know what to do with that. And to have that kind of menace to hang around, it's a strange, it's a strangeness. But I think, I think I quite like getting older.

Yeah. If I'm honest. No, I do. I mean, I just hit 51 and I will say that I loved my 40s. They were just flying high, gliding through, checking out the scene. It was just looking great, feeling fine. It was just amazing. Then you hit the 50s and you really like you hit it. And it's only because, it's not because you feel totally different, but there's a slight change.

It's a very slight change. And you just start to have thoughts like, you know, that little pain could be my death. Yeah, like it could happen, you know? And it's just this... So there's just this... I think the early... I'm imagining, and you can tell me that the early 50s are tricky.

Because you just start to sort of like... Yeah. There's these little bells that go off and you're like, oh. I imagine that by the end of your 50ifties, you're just like, whatever. You kind of get used to it. I felt like, but then my fifties, I was used to it. When I turned 50, I was, I was crazed. I didn't even want to talk about it.

When I turned 60, I was like, I don't know. And, and now that I'm 62, every now and again, it's, it's shocking to me. Yeah. You know, that it's like, this is shocking that I'm 62, every now and again, it's shocking to me. Yeah. You know, it's like, this is shocking that I'm 62. And it has that discordant quality. It has that weird, like a weird piece of music, that Saturn piece in the planet. But not to get too depressing about it, but since we're both of Celtic descent

or something like that. I don't know, are the Scottish Celts? The Scottish are Celts, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, is that what I think is that the 60s you probably get used to it, but sadly, and now I'm gonna get really dark, my mother died when she was 63. And I think if you die in your sixties, it's terrible.

Or if you know you're gonna die because you've just gotten into it and you're kind of looking forward to old age a little bit. Like you start to, you know, and to have that robbed, you know, I think in a strange way is I think so. So, just make it past your sixties. Because I think sixties, I think once you get to your seventies, seventies is the new 30.

That's what it is. Yes, I think that's right. 70 is the new 30. It's like, it's, it is. Yes, I think that's right. 70 is the new 30. Yeah. But I, it's like, it's, it lives in the day. It's numb. It is numb. And, and I, whenever I can be here in the moment, Yeah.

I'm slightly better than, than when I can't do that. Yeah. I think 60s is the new 90. Right. And then 70s is the new 30. 50s is the new 50. 50s is the new 50. 51 is the new 40. I think you'd be fine.

It's been a joy speaking with you, Rufus. I was a little nervous about talking to you because I'm intimidated by great talent. Oh, thank you. I don't like being around it that much. I find it unsettling. I think we have one friend in common. I mean, it's been ages, but you remember Jen Stills? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I haven't seen her in ages, but I just remember her speaking about you. Was it okay? Yeah, no, she, yeah, yeah, no, she, she, she, she toured with me once.

She was great fun and amazing character and wonderful woman. And she spoke very highly of you. You know Dominic Miller as well, don't you? I know Dominic. He's Sting's guitarist. Oh yeah. Well, well, I sort of know. Sort of know.

Maybe, probably. I know, I sort of know. Maybe probably. I haven't seen Dom in years either, but he's a, he's a good lad. He can play a bit. Yeah. Listen, it has been a great joy. I am, I think going to come to Carnegie Hall on the 29th. You must, you must, you must. Yeah. Yeah.

I think Carnegie Hall on the 29th, 20, 29th, yes, of November. 29th of November, right? Yes, day after Thanksgiving, please. Right. I think I might be able to get to that. It's quite a gamble we're taking. I think you'll be okay. Okay, I think you'll be alright. I'll bring some friends.

Great, please do. Alright. Okay. Thank you so much, Rufus. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Rivas. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Okay. Bye. Bye. I'm N.K. and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology, swaps of different meds, but by culture and society.

By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Justin Richmond,

host of the Broken Record podcast. Every week, I or my co-host, Leah Rose, sit down with the artists you love to get unparalleled creative insight. Our new series is looking at one of the most influential jazz labels ever, Blue Note Records. You'll hear from artists like legendary bassist Ron Carter, singer-songwriter Noah Jones, and guitarist Julian Lodge. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

There's a crucial election coming up. I feel enthusiastic to vote for Kamala Harris. And every week on The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'm voting for former President Trump. We bring together an all-star panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have you on The Middle. Thanks for having me, Jeremy. Neil deGrasse Tyson, welcome to The Middle.

Thanks for having me. And listen not to the extremes, but to the people who will decide who wins. My name is Anna. I'm calling from Las Vegas. Listen to The Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.